From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 18:17:57 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09445; Tue, 17 May 94 18:17:57 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09439; Tue, 17 May 94 14:17:53 -0400 Message-Id: <9405171817.AA09439@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 94 13:41:39 EDT." <9405171741.AA09015@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Tue, 17 May 94 14:17:53 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI | Ok, now we need some way of posting schematics, etc. Is there a site | we can use, and what format should we use? I would guess that postscript | is the best general purpose format for graphics. Previewers and | converters are available for most platforms. In addition, postscript | can directly drive a high-resolution printer to make etching masks, etc. A short time ago I asked for comments about using the World-Wide Web (WWW) for this purpose (i.e., Hypertext Mark-up Language (HTML) viewed by Mosaic or some other WWW browser) At the time no one objected and Robert Fridman (which I personally would like to thank for his time and effort) has been working on a home page for us. While I'll let Robert present his ideas himself, I think you will find this approach to be well suited to the needs of this group. Topics in the home page include: Introduction to diy_fi Topics of interest Work in progress (who built or is building what) Info on components (micro controllers, injectors, sensors, ...) Info on catalogues/books (Bosch material, performance catalogues, stuff from Motorola/Intel) Archive of articles (maybe categorized by topic) List of members with www home pages Hypertext is well suited to the task of integrating figures (schematics) with text and providing "links" between related topics. Re-read the past posting on this, and if there is disagreement over this means of exchange, I would like to hear it BEFORE the server goes on-line (maybe a week from now). Post to DIY_EFI. Note: hypertext can be printed out in postscript for those who do not have access to the WWW, but the links are not as easy to follow. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 18:34:45 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09642; Tue, 17 May 94 18:34:45 GMT Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09633; Tue, 17 May 94 14:34:38 -0400 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.6) id ; Tue, 17 May 1994 12:34:52 -0600 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.2; from fridman@localhost) id ; Tue, 17 May 1994 12:33:27 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 12:33:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199405171833.MAA26322@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: John S Gwynne's message of Tue, 17 May 94 13:41:39 -0400 <9405171741.AA09015@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: DIY_EFI World Wide Web page Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello all. I'm in the process of creating a World Wide Web page for the DIY_EFI mailing list. The WWW organization will include archived articles, projects under way, hardware specs and anything else that pertains to the DIY_EFI concept. I'm looking for a logo picture. Something which conveys the purpose of Do-It-Yourself! If you have such a pic, let me know. For those not familiar with the World Wide Web concept, its a repository of information accessible by connecting a client (a www viewer) to a server. The two viewers I'm familiar with are Mosaic (wizzy trick graphical) and lynx (runs on any dumb terminal). RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 71 Super Beetle fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca 84 320i From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 18:37:46 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09717; Tue, 17 May 94 18:37:46 GMT Received: from hp-cv.cv.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09711; Tue, 17 May 94 14:37:30 -0400 Received: from hp-pcd.cv.hp.com by hp-cv.cv.hp.com with SMTP (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22+CV 1.0ext) id AA09893; Tue, 17 May 1994 11:37:22 -0700 Received: from by hp-pcd.cv.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.8/15.5+IOS 3.22+OM+CV 1.0) id AA24609; Tue, 17 May 1994 11:37:21 -0700 From: cary_mccallister@hp-corvallis.om.hp.com X-Openmail-Hops: 2 Date: Tue, 17 May 94 11:36:35 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9405171817.AA09439@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: WWW Homepage Cc: DIY_EFI Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sounds good. I have been using Mosaic for a while and have a home page. The only problem is that I sit behind a corporate firewall, so I can get out, but no one can get in. If any of you are interested in what HTML can do take a look at the following URL, http://lancet.mit.edu/decavitator It is a HTML document giving the history of MIT's world record attempt for a human powered water vehicle. As far as knock sensors go you need to filter the signal for the angular measure necessary during the combustion process. I.E., you do not want to hear valve clatter, piston slap, etc. From what little I know the Auto Manufacturers turn the knock sensor on and off according to when a cylinder fires. Mopar has some cheap piezo sensors available in most boneyards. You can find them on most of the turbo 4 bangers. Hope this helps, Cary McCallister ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Author: Non-HP-Diy-Efi-Owner (Diy_Efi-Owner@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu) at HP-Corvallis,unix1 Date: 5/17/94 11:17 AM | Ok, now we need some way of posting schematics, etc. Is there a site | we can use, and what format should we use? I would guess that postscript | is the best general purpose format for graphics. Previewers and | converters are available for most platforms. In addition, postscript | can directly drive a high-resolution printer to make etching masks, etc. A short time ago I asked for comments about using the World-Wide Web (WWW) for this purpose (i.e., Hypertext Mark-up Language (HTML) viewed by Mosaic or some other WWW browser) At the time no one objected and Robert Fridman (which I personally would like to thank for his time and effort) has been working on a home page for us. While I'll let Robert present his ideas himself, I think you will find this approach to be well suited to the needs of this group. Topics in the home page include: Introduction to diy_fi Topics of interest Work in progress (who built or is building what) Info on components (micro controllers, injectors, sensors, ...) Info on catalogues/books (Bosch material, performance catalogues, stuff from Motorola/Intel) Archive of articles (maybe categorized by topic) List of members with www home pages Hypertext is well suited to the task of integrating figures (schematics) with text and providing "links" between related topics. Re-read the past posting on this, and if there is disagreement over this means of exchange, I would like to hear it BEFORE the server goes on-line (maybe a week from now). Post to DIY_EFI. Note: hypertext can be printed out in postscript for those who do not have access to the WWW, but the links are not as easy to follow. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 18:52:49 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09976; Tue, 17 May 94 18:52:49 GMT Received: from [192.105.104.3] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09970; Tue, 17 May 94 14:52:42 -0400 Received: from by system3.lcs.gov.bc.ca with SMTP (1.37.109.6/16.2) id AA11733; Tue, 17 May 94 11:54:17 -0700 From: Evernden_Wes_A/lcs_system3@system3.lcs.gov.bc.ca X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Tue, 17 May 94 11:53:42 -0700 Message-Id: <34C494FF@MHS> Subject: RE: pre-ignition To: DIY_EFI Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I believe that Toyota used knock detection on one of their Japanese models. The detector was a piezo-electric washer that replaced the normal spark plug washer. I can't remember much else, I think i read it in SAE magazine or in a paper. I'll keep my eyes open for it. Wes Evernden (not a student, anymore) ---------- Back to real stuff: One person replied to my post about pre-ignition detection, saying that it showed up from 5-8khz. What sort of detector would work to pick up this signal? piezo-electric tape is easy, just stick it on, but it might have problems with the heat, and it may not have the correct frequency response. how about commercial detectors? are there sources for them, how much do they cost, and can they be easily interfaced? once a detctor is found, what is the control algorithm for the ignition? the simplest seems to be to continually advance the ignition until pre-ignition is detected, then retard it a little. would this give the most power? or is more feedback required, like maybe an exhaust monitor? inquiring minds want to know.... Those of us who are still here, lets keep the list going..... --steve From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 19:02:58 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10143; Tue, 17 May 94 19:02:58 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10137; Tue, 17 May 94 15:02:52 -0400 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25492; Tue, 17 May 1994 14:02:46 -0500 Received: by ohura.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA06562; Tue, 17 May 1994 14:02:41 -0500 Message-Id: <9405171902.AA06562@ohura.cca.rockwell.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 94 13:41:39 EDT." <9405171741.AA09015@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Tue, 17 May 94 14:02:41 -0500 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Makes sense. Discussion has fallen off somewhat, I guess because >the schools are between semesters? Anyone out there not in school? I'm one of the new folks, but I'm not in school. Maybe you can bring some of us "up to speed" on the current topic of discussion. Building your own system? >Those of us who are still here, lets keep the list going..... I'm up for the challenge. I've been thinking about building an "interceptor" device for use on a GMC Syclone. Is this the proper forum for such a discussion? >how about commercial detectors? are there sources for >them, how much do they cost, and can they be easily interfaced? Depending on how low-buck you want to get, knock sensors could be robbed from junkyard vehicles pretty cheaply. Mounting specifics vary between manufacturers. >the >simplest seems to be to continually advance the ignition until pre-ignition is >detected, then retard it a little. would this give the most power? or is >more feedback required, like maybe an exhaust monitor? inquiring minds want >to know.... From what I've heard, the knock sensor is more of a failsafe than a run-time input. You would determine an "optimum" timing curve, and then retard slightly when detonation is "heard". Timing is not the only cause of detonation, and you would want to check other parameters like 02 sensor input and temp to prevent using timing retard as a crutch. Later, Dig __&__ _________________________________ / \ / Scott D. Bartholomay \ | | / Rockwell International \ | (o)(o) / Collins Air Transport Division \ c .---_) / Cedar Rapids, Iowa 52402 \ | |.___| __/ INTERNET: sdbartho@pobox.cca.rockwell.com \ | \__/ \ (319) 395-4498 / /_____\ \ I look pretty young but I'm just / /_____/ \ \ backdated ... / / \ \ -The Who / \ The opinions expressed here are far / \ too bizarre to be that of Rockwell / \__________________________________/ From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 19:11:55 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10232; Tue, 17 May 94 19:11:55 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10226; Tue, 17 May 94 15:11:50 -0400 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25669; Tue, 17 May 1994 14:11:48 -0500 Received: by ohura.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA06574; Tue, 17 May 1994 14:11:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9405171911.AA06574@ohura.cca.rockwell.com> To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 94 14:17:53 EDT." <9405171817.AA09439@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Tue, 17 May 94 14:11:43 -0500 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >A short time ago I asked for comments about using the World-Wide Web (WWW) >for this purpose (i.e., Hypertext Mark-up Language (HTML) viewed by Mosaic or >some other WWW browser) Sounds cool. We have a WWW client here, but unfortunately no server, so I can't show you my home page. >At the time no one objected and Robert Fridman (which >I personally would like to thank for his time and effort) has been working on >a home page for us. I'll volunteer to help get things working if you need any. I'm a frequent web surfer, and I've seen some things that might be appropriate links. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From Diy_Efi-Owner Tue May 17 19:43:25 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10501; Tue, 17 May 94 19:43:25 GMT Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10494; Tue, 17 May 94 15:43:18 -0400 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.6) id ; Tue, 17 May 1994 13:43:32 -0600 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.2; from fridman@localhost) id ; Tue, 17 May 1994 13:42:07 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 13:42:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199405171942.NAA26698@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com's message of Tue, 17 May 94 14:11:43 -0500 <9405171911.AA06574@ohura.cca.rockwell.com> Subject: diy_efi WWW page Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com sez: > I'll volunteer to help get things working if you need any. I'm a frequent > web surfer, and I've seen some things that might be appropriate links. Good. What are these links? RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 71 Super Beetle fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca 84 320i From Diy_Efi-Owner Wed May 18 06:22:54 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15315; Wed, 18 May 94 06:22:54 GMT Received: from [202.14.102.1] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15309; Wed, 18 May 94 02:22:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id SAA07286; Wed, 18 May 1994 18:17:45 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199405180617.SAA07286@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: What to measure (..cont) To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 18:17:44 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 696 Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI (Another old fart, well out of school) I guess I'll have to investigate this WWW stuff after all. :-) Would it be realistic to take a pressure tap from a spark plug ? Would this provide useful information to an EFI system ? I'm still looking for alternative methods. :-) Anybody have some experience in this area ? It seems to me that this is what you are trying to derive from all the other gizmos that get poked around an engine. At the cost of convenience, why not go straight to the horses mouth, so to speak ? I'll agree with Millam. The potential for alky would be good. I just love the idea of a blown, injected flathead, running alky on the street. Has a nice ring to it. :-) Steve. From Diy_Efi-Owner Wed May 18 14:05:13 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16029; Wed, 18 May 94 14:05:13 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16023; Wed, 18 May 94 10:05:08 -0400 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA27265; Wed, 18 May 1994 09:05:05 -0500 Received: by ohura.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA08020; Wed, 18 May 1994 09:04:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9405181404.AA08020@ohura.cca.rockwell.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com Subject: Re: diy_efi WWW page In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 94 13:42:07 MDT." <199405171942.NAA26698@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> Date: Wed, 18 May 94 09:04:58 -0500 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Robert Fridman tatooed the following onto the electronic biker: >Good. What are these links? Aarrgh! Net went down and I lost my bookmark file. I'll poke around and find them again. You probably already have this one: http://galaxy.einet.net/galaxy/Engineering-and-Technology/Transportation/Automotive-Engineer ing.html Lotta stuff in here. Another possible information source is the patent office. There may be some interesting system descriptions of patented ECMs, if they did patent the thing. There is a patent search index out there, I'll give you the address when I finds it again. As far as the logo goes, maybe we could make one. Scan in a technical drawing of an injector, or maybe a small chunk of a schematic? Gotta try to keep image size at a minimum, otherwise access time goes waaay up. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com "Yeah, we got dogs and Valvoline, it's a pretty damn good time." -Toy Matinee From Diy_Efi-Owner Wed May 18 22:50:57 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19379; Wed, 18 May 94 22:50:57 GMT Received: from Rosie.UH.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA19373; Wed, 18 May 94 18:50:52 -0400 Received: from Jetson.UH.EDU by Jetson.UH.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #5185) id <01HCHREVDG7K8ZFH3H@Jetson.UH.EDU>; Wed, 18 May 1994 17:50:25 CDT Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 17:50:25 -0500 (CDT) From: ST3XD@Jetson.UH.EDU Subject: 6811 for me To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HCHREVDZIA8ZFH3H@Jetson.UH.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: Diy_Efi-Owner Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI After a more carefull examination of the miniboard, and examining Motorola's M68HC11 Reference Manual. I'm going to go with the 6811. There is no way any of us will be able to throw together a complete EFI system. I like the idea of "modularity I'm going to make a board just to monitor everything first. When that is done, I'll go for ignition and then fuel. The MC68HC11A8 has 8k of EEPROM which will be enough to handle monitoring things. When I'm ready to add the next module (ignition) I'll use another one, and network them through SPI! Jeff