From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 1 06:10:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22331 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:10:20 -0400 Received: (from jsg@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22316 for diy_efi; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:10:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:10:14 -0400 From: jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: <199908011010.GAA22316@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ now mirrored at http://tech.buffalostate.edu/efi Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 1 20:27:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29607 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:27:37 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA29604 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:27:32 -0400 Received: (qmail 21384 invoked from network); 2 Aug 1999 00:27:31 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 00:27:31 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts3-h2-44-163.ispmodems.net [209.162.44.163]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA24345; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:27:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: "EFI" , "Janne" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #438 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:30:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <37A0400F.D22E1F6E@navigate.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu All of the files are in PDF format except for the PC board layout are on the web site (members.aol.com/ALIPPER/). The PCB is in gerber format. There are a variety of gerber viewers out there in the public domain which should work. I hope this helps. Al -----Original Message----- From: Janne [mailto:janne@navigate.se] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 4:51 AM To: efi@cardozo.org Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #438 Hi I havenīt seen the printout (i donīt have any schematic program ) could you perhaps send an pdf or an postscript file over the layout, Ican maybe have it done quite cheap.. thou i have to have something to show.. Regards Janne http://www.navigate.se/~janne > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #436 > Re: ecu7 boards > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:37:09 -0700 > From: Al Lipper > Subject: Re: ecu7 boards > > I've been away for several weeks, and have been trying to get a cheaper > price on the boards (it's now over $100 each). I'll get back to my search > this week I expect. I do have some ECU6 boards left if you want one. They > cost $37US plus shipping. Just let me know if you's like one and I'd be > happy to get it out to you. > > Al > From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 1 20:36:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29738 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:36:24 -0400 Received: from guardianPPP.aesprodata.com.au (firewall-user@guardianPPP.aesprodata.com.au [203.11.120.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29735 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:36:19 -0400 From: dzorde@erggroup.com Received: by guardianPPP.aesprodata.com.au; id FAA21880; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:20:42 +0800 (WST) Received: from unknown(10.240.0.3) by guardianPPP.aesprodata.com.au via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021842; Mon, 2 Aug 99 05:20:14 +0800 Received: by aupera03.erg.com.au(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 482567C1.00032F95 ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:34:47 +0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ERG_GROUP To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <482567C1.00032E74.00@aupera03.erg.com.au> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:34:43 +0800 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #444 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks, will be checking with my local speed shop later today if this is anything they can get hold of. Also need to check with the local wreckers for a efi pump, then I should be ready to continue work. Dan dzorde@erggroup.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:43:36 -0400 From: "C. Brooks" Subject: wide range pressure regulators I don't remember who was looking for a regulator for the turbo carb application but I looked through my parts catalogs and found a pressure regulator with adjustability over a wide range. It's made by Russell, p/n 4532. It's a 2 port regulator adjustable between 3psi and 25psi. Hope that helps, Charles Brooks From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 3 13:29:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23253 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:29:07 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23250 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:29:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199908031729.NAA23250@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.210]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA123 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:27:30 +1000 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 03:28:28 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: From Cranking to Idle.DIY_EFI Digest V4 #443 References: <199907311900.PAA14705@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, The problem of Injection timing at cranking is one of engine requirements. The problem is not as it seems. The engine doesn't run on petrol it runs on vapor. When the engine is cold very little vaporization takes place in the cold air stream. In fact the only physics available to aid us is low pressure. Thus the time to inject is during the exhaust stroke. This allows maximum time for latent heat absorption and thus vaporization and allows for a vacuum build up during intake as long a you can convince the customer to keep their foot of the acc. pedal. You will need approx. 300% excess fuel to start the engine. This is due to the partial vaporization of the fuel. A cranking engine often has HC components in the exhaust of 50-60% raw fuel. Don't assume that the compression of the air will supply sufficient heat as the pressure builds up very late in the piece. And the dwell time at that temp is only a few ms. Worse still if you get the A/F wrong you have just chilled your combustion chamber with a dose of raw fuel. Makes it important to really over fuel. Try and imagine the volume of fuel from a Holley double pumper in the two or three squirts that are applied before cranking. 20 - 40 cc !!! Then check to see your 5 ms injection volume. Say grams/ms/injector GMS 0.03x5x8= 1.2 40cc=22 gms approx. You're working in grams and Holley in gallons. You can either multiple fire the injectors by dropping the input divisor or simply have a table with very big numbers. You may still run out of pulse width if your injectors are too small. (See Toyota for several hundred million examples) they still fit cold start injectors in place with very low winter temps. The aim of the game is to use the smallest injector possible that fulfills the requirements. Often 85% duty cycle is the target. that is of course 85% of 720 Deg. or 612 Deg. Due to the acc of the engine 0 to 600 in 1 to 1.5 seconds the pulses must be linked to the crank. This will ensure that there are no missed pulses. This also means that the crank trigger event must result in an injection event even if the output buffer has not been updated with a sensible rpm measurement and thus in fact the ecu may not know how fast the engine is tuning. Most manufacturers use a cranking table that cuts out at say 350 rpm. Below that each trigger pulse is greeted with the same ms injector output regardless of vacuum.. If you hard link the events then it doesn't matter how fast the acc of the engine really is. If the fueling is wrong it will simply acc more slowly. The clue is to use the micro to set up a timer/off event from the instigation of injection. Your electric motor should not be able to unsync a magnetic trigger firing a gate on a transistor. Though it would confound the heck out of an input capture rpm reading as it is using clock events to determine rpm. During cranking it would be very late in it's determination. By the time it has worked out the rpm it could be 200% wrong in its phasing as the engine speed could more than double on a 1/4 revolution. Hope this cures some headaches and creates many others. Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom Injec Racing Developments Director of Engineering From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 3 13:39:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23362 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:39:56 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23359 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:39:55 -0400 Received: (qmail 17134 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1999 17:39:53 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 17:39:53 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts4-h2-45-217.ispmodems.net [209.162.45.217]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA01634; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: RE: ECU7 and diy-efi development Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199908031520.LAA03969@sunblast.eng.usf.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Chris, I will try to answer some of your questions here. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Caloto [mailto:caloto@eng.usf.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:00 AM > To: Al Lipper > Subject: ECU7 and diy-efi -> thanks for your reply > > > Hi Al. > > Got your e-mail reply. Thanks. > > >What makes it unique is that it's a real-time > >based system using multiple inputs, and especially, that it > "learns." The > >learning is a tricky problem which can be approached in a number of ways. > > This sounds really good. That's the first thing I noticed about the > ECU6/ECU7 projects when I looked at the web pages -> that they can > self-calibrate themselves to whatever engines they are put on. > Do they build\modify their own fuel map ? They start with a pretty crude map which lets the engine run extremely rich. The idea is that the engine will at least run if it's too rich (and have time to warm up), but if it's cold, it won't even start. Then, it checks to see if the EGO (Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor is giving what appears to be valid feedback. Next, it starts the steady_state timer to determine if the engine has not had major MAP or RPM variations for a certain period of time. If it has indeed been steady, then it decreases PW (injector pulse width) one step at a time (CL_STEP). As long as the engine state is steady, it will do this every few seconds (based on EGO_DELAY) until the EGO sensor indicates it is in a stochiometric range and then learn the value. Otherwise, until a variation occurs in which case it will back off one step and learn that value before moving on to the table cell for the current inputs. This is a simplified description, but should give you the general idea. Note that TICK15 is a timer that increments every 15ms - its value is converted to seconds and used for general timing purposes (like the EGO timer). > This could be a really good computer science master's thesis project. > I downloaded all the ECU6 files and was looking through them to > try to identify your learing algorithms. I see it's making use of > learning tables (stored at appropriate address spaces in the memory.) > Can you e-mail some info so I can understand the software better - > like a software module map that shows the software components and > how they interact / their purposes. > Or maybe you don't have that. Just anything you have to speed > up my learning curve as I try to pick apart the ECU6 code. I'll see what I can dig up. If I don't get you what you need soon, feel free to remind me :) > I assume it doesn't matter which one I work on - ECU6 or ECU7 - > they're pretty much the same, right ? > Yes, they are very similar. ECU7 improves over ECU6 in that it uses a currently manufactured CPU (Intel stopped making the 80C51GB about 8 months ago, but you can probably still order them from distributor stock. ECU7 supports 4 independent sets of injectors (ECU6 does 2). ECU7 uses a 5-volt flash memory instead of the 12-volt one on ECU6. ECU7 has much better protection from noise, spikes, etc. than ECU6 (ECU6 may have a tough time in electrically noisy cars, or those with voltage fluctuations). Otherwise, they are the same. > For this to work as my thesis project I have to come up with some > significant improvements to your learning algorithm. > Did you come up with it yourself - or is your implementation based upon > somebody else's work ? If so, please give me the reference(s) so I > can go read up on it. > Are there some shortcomings to the learning algorithm > in it's current implementation that you would like me to > fix / improve ? This would be great. The algorithms are entirely original. But please note, I have a minimal background in control systems theory, and they could no doubt be greatly improved or re-written. The current algorithm works as long as the vehicle is warm and there are a minimum number of abrupt throttle movements. It also tends to enter a nasty oscillation at idle, where there are many zero crossings (reaching stoich) of the EGO sensor (ultimately stalling the engine). > > A second issue is that I must have some way > of testing the new learning algorithm to show that it really > does perform better than the old one. Ideally I would build the > circuit and implement it on a vehicle(s) and it would run superbly > and I would collect performance date to document it - > but that is TOO big a project for me right now - although I think > it would be great fun and it is something I would like to do - > I have to remind myself I am not superman and I have limited > time and resources. > > So is there some way to create an artificial test environment for > the learning algorithm to evaluate it / test it ? > Have you done anything comparable when you were developing > ECU6 ? (or any prior versions - I assume there was an ECU4 and ECU5 ?) Yes, there were many versions (the first was the PC-based EFI system on the DIY_EFI site - it was a bit clunky with a PC in the back seat, but it ran!) For development of ECU6, I used a "vehicle simulator." Basically, a box with variable resistors for each of the analog inputs (Temp., TPS, EGO and MAP), each with a calibrated dial. Then, there were switches/pushbuttons for digital inputs. The RPM signal was generated using a function generator which I connected a digital tach to in order to accurately monitor its "RPM." I used a relay as an inductive load for the injector output, just so I could hear it buzzing when things worked right. You can also use LEDs for other outputs. The setup works very well - better than a car even. Too bad you can't drive the thing :) What I mean is you're creating an ideal situation with it, and a real engine is far from ideal and has fluctuations which are not detected by the system's inputs. The simulator is extremely helpful in setting things up and debugging, but really needs to be used with the actual installation to guarantee it works. For example, the learning rountines worked great on the sim., but in the actual vehicle, I ran into that idle fluctuation problem. Basically, you need both. Surprisingly, getting it to work on a car is not nearly as tough as it seems. I got it installed on a 57 corvette (including putting in the fuel pump, and all the wiring) in about 2 days. And, it ran without too much work! While it seems like there's so much data that comes from a car, I've actually found ways to deal with it all. In the beginning of ECU6.BAS, you see all of the PRINT statements. These are status reports. I plug an old laptop in and simply capture all of the data while the car is running under different conditions. Then, I take the saved file, import it into Excel and examine it. For example, lets say RPMs fluctuate and the engine dies going up a hill. Start the data capture, drive up the hill and let it stall. Then, going back through the data will prehaps reveal a pattern of high MAP and excessively lean mixture, leading to an attempt at compensation by the learning rountine. You go home and simulate the inputs on the simulator, duplicate the problem, and ultimately see that the compensation is too extreme. Or something like that. Anyway, that's the general idea. > > So this diy_efi stuff definitely has potential. > I am interested in working on the learning algorithm. > My two main concerns are > 1) Are there problems / inadequacies in the current learning > algorithm so that I could come up with SIGNIFICANT improvements ? Yes, there is room for significant improvements in the learning algorithm. I have done very little research into control algorithms, but there is certainly a lot out there. > 2) Is there a way to test my new software implementation ? > This is very important but could be a sticking point, because > as you pointed out the system is real time and uses multiple inputs. > But testing \ evaluation is critical for my thesis. > I wouldn't mind working on and developing testing software. > In fact, that could be a thesis project on it's own ... You need an ECU6 or ECU7 board to work with. Once you get the parts, the ECU6 board takes about 3 hours to put together (if you're reasonably good with PC boards). Through some major miracle, mine worked the first time (though I'm skeptical about ever experiencing this again :) If you do some decent work on the software, I'd be happy to attach your name to the copyright and include you if it ever turns into a marketable item. > > > >From the EE perspective, there's the hardware of ECU7. > >What about taking the circuit and getting it to actually work > >on a vehicle? > > I would love to work on that, but I've got to be realistic. > Right now I can't do it. It's too big a project for me. > I'd need to go buy another car (I'm fairly confident I could > get a suitable rust bucket for a few hundred dollars) > because if I try getting this to work on my > current car (a 1982 carburated Mazda RX-7) I will be without > transportation until I get it to work. I live in Tampa Bay, > Florida and the public transportation system sucks so this is > not an option. > I also don't have a large dedicated work area. > Must have a good work area. > If you just want to do the simulator part and don't have a vehicle to try it on yourself, I might be able to work something out where you could do the software development, and I would test new code on a vehicle, then e-mail you results, etc. I've done similar things before and it has worked out pretty well. > >You didn't mention if your EE program requires a > >thesis or senior project ... > > It does, but I've already got some stuff lined up. > Of course, I could end up doing something diy_efi related, > but the senior project needs to be a SMALL, compact > project. > > > >If you are > >interested in pursuing this further, let me know and I'd be happy to give > >you plenty of additional info on the hardware, software and application. > > Yes, please send me anything you have that will help me > understand the software, especially in regards to the learning > algorithm. > > Also, a file contents listing would be handy -> when I unzipped > the ECU6 zip file it contained a Software directory with 23 files. > Some it's obvious what they are, others not so obvious. > A listing of file names and what their purpose is would be good to > have. If such a thing is already in the zip package what is its > file name ? I didn't find such a listing. > I'll see what I can dig up for this. Are there particular files you need to know about? > Looking forward to hearing from you, > - Chris. > > > Here's the full text of the e-mail you sent me: > At 7/29/99 3:33:00 PM, you wrote: > Chris, > It's great to hear of your interest in EFI stuff. > Actually, there are a > number of aspects of the EFI projects that lend themselves to > master's-level thesis work. On the computer science end of things, there > is the programming of ECU7. What makes it unique is that it's a real-time > based system using multiple inputs, and especially, that it "learns." The > learning is a tricky problem which can be approached in a number of ways. > >From the EE perspective, there's the hardware of ECU7. While > the design on > this is apparently complete, we have yet to build and test one - that is, > it looks good on paper, but will no doubt need plenty of work once > constructed. What about taking the circuit and getting it to > actually work > on a vehicle? The combination of programming and hardware might work well > for your requirements. You didn't mention if your EE program requires a > thesis or senior project, but if so, you may be able to kill 2 birds with > one stone. In any case, congratulations on being almost done. If you are > interested in pursuing this further, let me know and I'd be happy to give > you plenty of additional info on the hardware, software and application. > > Al > > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 3 13:40:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23373 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:40:02 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23368 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:40:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 17178 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1999 17:39:59 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 17:39:59 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts4-h2-45-217.ispmodems.net [209.162.45.217]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA01900; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:39:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: RE: Ecu 6 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:43:01 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <63a244cf.24d86266@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yes. I have a few left. If you want one C.O.D., give me your address. Or, if you would prefer, let me know, and I'll give you my address to send a check to (that way no one needs to be around to receive it, and you don't need to pay C.O.D.). The main code is stored in flash memory and can be re-programmed easily to control just about anything from a toaster to a turbo. See the ECU6.ZIP file for details on all this. Al Al Lipper efi@cardozo.org -----Original Message----- From: RSRACE@aol.com [mailto:RSRACE@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:19 AM To: efi@cardozo.org Subject: Ecu 6 I saw an e mail saying you had some of the ECU 6 boards left. You also said they were $37 each plus shipping. Could you tell me how to get one shipped to me. Would C.O.D. be best. You could ship it to our shop that way someone is always there with the money order. Just let me know I'm pretty interested in it. Also can the code be changed to do other things such as a wastegate control and such. I'm in Maryland. Thanks Tom Ross From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 3 20:18:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA28074 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:18:31 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28071 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:18:30 -0400 Received: (qmail 15379 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1999 23:32:18 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 23:32:18 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts1-h1-40-179.ispmodems.net [209.162.40.179]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA14004; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:32:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: RE: ECU7 / diy-efi development, Lots of EFI articles Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:35:15 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <199908032252.SAA02973@sunblast.eng.usf.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm glad to hear you're getting started. > From: Chris Caloto [mailto:caloto@eng.usf.edu] > > Hi Al. > > Got your e-mail. > Thanks for your well thought out replies. > I've got enough information to get started. > > What I plan to do is study the software and > ECU6 / ECU7 hardware and then build a test > box as you described. I can then try > improving your learning algorithm. > Depending on my progress / how well things go > I will then think about getting a rust bucket > car to try to install the ECU6 or ECU7 on. > If not I will e-mail you my results as you suggested > and we can collaborate via e-mail. > > I've read on the diy_efi List that you have > ECU6 boards for sale for $30 some dollars. > Do you have any ECU7 boards for sale ? I do not yet have ECU7 boards - still working on getting them made. A number of people are interested in the ECU6 boards, but I think I'l have 1 or 2 left. I don't want to make any promises on the ECU7 boards since I have not built one yet - we'll have to wait and see. > Here's an I'm just curious question: > I read that you insist that the Oxygen > sensor must be the heated type. > If it's not heated does the system really crash/ > perform THAT badly ? > How about rotary engines ? > Rotary engines run so hot (by nature of their > design) that exhaust temps are 1600 - 1800 degrees > Fahrenheit (honest.) > Mazda doesn't use heated Oxygen sensors on the > rotaries that have EFI (to the best of my knowledge.) > Anyways, what's the deal with the heated Oxygen sensor ? Actually, they don't work at all. The EGO sensor needs to be heated to approx. 280C before it starts outputting ANY voltage. Unheated sensors are located in the exhaust manifold where the exhaust is hot enough to keep them at operating temp. Since we are putting them downstream, it must be a heated sensor. I know some are "more heated" than others. It is best to use one designed to be used a ways downstream (yes, I know they're expensive). Your questions have encouraged me to dig out my journal articled accumulated over years of EFI research. Perhaps they may save you some time in your research. Most of them are from the SAE proceedings, so I will just give their reference numbers. SAE number: 841297 (or C444/84) 840141 930856 800539 790143 770400 770401 840152 800164 930854 Also, check out: International Journal of Vehicle design, vol 8, num 2. 1987, p.49 Int'l journal of mech. engineering 1985, C221/85 (G. Fegler) Int'l journal of mech. engineering 1985, C245/85 (J.L. Pfeifer) IEEE control systems, June 1994, p.31 IFAC Control Science and Technology proceedings, Kyoto Japan, 1981, p.2161 (N. Endo, T. Fukui, et. al.) Note, I'm not positive of the exact title of what I have listed as "Int'l journal of mech. engineering", but it is somthing like that. I hope these help. Looking them up on ei-web compendex (or a similar academic engineering database might help. They used to have trial subscriptions at: http://www.ei.org/, but I think any decent university library should have one). I know how much work a thesis can be, so I hope this helps some. Good luck. Al From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 3 22:50:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29782 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:50:24 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA29779 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:50:22 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.158] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11Br8C-0006cuC for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001901bede24$d04563f0$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: re: From Cranking to Idle Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:54:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Phil, Great response. Thanks. I'ved add some more questions. >Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 03:28:28 +1000 >From: Phil Lamovie >Subject: Re: From Cranking to Idle.DIY_EFI Digest V4 #443 > >Hi All, > >The problem of Injection timing at cranking is one of engine requirements. > >The problem is not as it seems. The engine doesn't run on petrol it runs on >vapor. >When the engine is cold very little vaporization takes place in the cold >air stream. I thought one of the injector's jobs was to atomize the fuel though. > >In fact the only physics available to aid us is low pressure. Thus the >time to inject is during the exhaust stroke. This allows maximum time for >latent heat absorption and thus vaporization and allows for a vacuum build >up during intake as long a you can convince the customer to keep their foot >of the acc. pedal. Not a problem. Most cars instructions are to leave the throttle alone. On the Honda, there is a cold start system that increases the air flow so that it acts as if the throttle has been cracked a bit. However, we've removed that to save weight and a couple of extra coolent hoses that could crack or break at altitude. (This is an remanufactured engine turning a propellor on a hovercraft or aircraft). So we have to crack the throttle a little bit at startup. This has been the biggest obsticle to cold starting. If we open the throttle too far the MAP is wrong compared to RPM and mixture is off. > >You will need approx. 300% excess fuel to start the engine. This is due to >the partial vaporization of the fuel. A cranking engine often has HC >components in the exhaust of 50-60% raw fuel. Don't assume that the >compression of the air will supply sufficient heat as the pressure builds >up very late in the piece. And the dwell time at that temp is only a few >ms. Worse still if you get the A/F wrong you have just chilled your >combustion chamber with a dose of raw fuel. Makes it important to really >over fuel. > We've found that we do need that much extra fuel. We inject just after the intake valve starts to open and pulse width at cranking is about 6ms. Once the engine starts and while the engine is cold the warmup enhancement keeps the pulse width at about 3.5 to 4ms. Once warmed up it drops to 2ms at idle and the loop is closed because the O2 sensor is used for closed loop control. > >You can either multiple fire the injectors by dropping the input divisor or >simply have a table with very big numbers. You may still run out of pulse >width if your injectors are too small. (See Toyota for several hundred >million examples) they still fit cold start injectors in place with very >low winter temps. Yes. I'm somewhat worried about really cold temperatures. My problem is that on Vancouver Island we rarely drop below 0 C. However, the injector pulse width at starting is tied to engine coolent temperature and the pulse width is also tied to engine intake manifold air temperature so hopefully it should work when cold. We'll find out this winter. > >The aim of the game is to use the smallest injector possible that fulfills >the requirements. Often 85% duty cycle is the target. that is of course 85% >of 720 Deg. >or 612 Deg. Based on the last dynamometer run, we found we were at about 12ms at 6000RPM and pulling 111 HP and our goal is 125HP; We've been able to get over 250ft/lbs Torque. This, at a little less than 75% duty cycle. As I understand the reason for 'the name of the game' is to provide a smooth unloaded idle. Since we turn a prop idling at about 900RPM we have a little bit of a load so a slightly larger injector might keep me under 75%. (I have a hardware limitation on pulse widths longer than 75% if I plan my injection at low rpm for the intake stroke). > >Due to the acc of the engine 0 to 600 in 1 to 1.5 seconds the pulses must >be linked to the crank. This will ensure that there are no missed pulses. >This also means that the crank trigger event must result in an injectio n >event even if the output buffer has not been updated with a sensible rpm >measurement and thus in fact the ecu may not know how fast the engine is >tuning. And in fact I do that. I use a double Hall Effect Sensor buried under the CAM Shaft timing pulley so not only do I detect TDC for each cylinder but the pattern is such I know which cylinder since only one Hall Effect sensor changes at each TDC. > >Most manufacturers use a cranking table that cuts out at say 350 rpm. Below >that >each trigger pulse is greeted with the same ms injector output regardless >of vacuum.. Now that's a good idea. Just say the heck with MAP,Water Temp, Air Temp and Throttle position and inject at fixed value under about 350 to 500 RPM. > >If you hard link the events then it doesn't matter how fast the acc of the >engine really is. If the fueling is wrong it will simply acc more slowly. > >The clue is to use the micro to set up a timer/off event from the >instigation of injection. Yes. I do that too. >Your electric motor should not be able to unsync a magnetic trigger firing >a gate on a transistor. Though it would confound the heck out of an input >capture rpm reading >as it is using clock events to determine rpm. During cranking it would be >very late in it's determination. By the time it has worked out the rpm it >could be 200% wrong in >its phasing as the engine speed could more than double on a 1/4 revolution. > It doesn't unsync the injectors, since I tie injector on with the TDC of the intake stroke. What perhaps isn't working as well as I'd like is the mixture at cranking due to the high acceleration from cranking to idle. But you are right about figuring out RPM during that initial high acceleration moment from cranking to idle; doesn't work. >Hope this cures some headaches and creates many others. Yes, thanks again. I still have an issue of when to actually trip the injector on. I've seen carburated cars start after only a half a revolution although as they get older it usually takes a turn or two. This implies that the fuel leaving the carburator gets into the cylinder easily enough although a cold engine leaves lots on the intake manifold walls. Explains why intake manifolds have a hot water path in them and gobs of fuel are needed when first starting. 8-) But, injection is supposed to get rid of the need for a lot of the excess fuel because it's sprayed almost directly onto the intake valve. Spraying onto a closed intake valve when the engine is cold or just warming up doesn't seem logical for a low pollution fuel efficient engine. My SAAB 99 used to be multi-port injection with the K-Jetronic Bosch system that varied fuel flow via fuel pressure. Engine ran fine but had lousy altitude compensation and it had a cold start injector. My 900 is much more sophisticated with multi-port sequential and has the luxury of having a MAF but no cold start injector; runs fine at any altitude but I think the turbine helps a little there. 8-) My JEEP uses MAP but has to be cranked a while before starting and I don't think it has a cold start injector. If I knew where to tap into I could sync the scope on the TDC sensor and look at the fuel injection pulse to see when they do it. But, isn't the idle quite a bit rougher if injection were to be started on the POP part of the stroke. Obviously at high RPM and 85% duty cycle it no longer matters but in-between.... Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 03:06:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA31963 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:06:18 -0400 Received: from fep02-svc.tin.it (mta02-acc.tin.it [212.216.176.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA31960 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:06:16 -0400 Received: from pippo ([212.216.200.81]) by fep02-svc.tin.it (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <19990804070615.FNOJ16170.fep02-svc@pippo> for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:06:15 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bede47$df309560$51c8d8d4@pippo> From: "TT" To: References: <199908031900.PAA24294@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: request info motronic Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:23:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hy dear friends i'm a very enthusiast appassionated of engine i have a pocket programmer and my car is equipped with bosch motronic mp.3.2 system ecu i have read eprom 's file in a 27c256 and have a version demo of software to remapping eprom i have find map of injection and spark advance but i want understand if are in axis rpm or loaded and hex value how corresponding in spark advance and time of ignition? please help me and give me all info to motronic system i have build a 02 sensor led and have notated that at full load mixture is too rich about 0.8 0.9 v how can adjust it? where are table of mixture and injection and lambda system? with stechiometric air fuel can to improve horse power and torque? because with this mixture rich engine not very good ..... ciao and help me if you want a original file to study it ask me p.s. i'm interested to understand disassembler code utilizzing in ecu to modify ecu system scientif and not a groplingly!!! ciao and many regards giuseppe rossetti italy From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 10:39:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03929 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:39:49 -0400 Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [209.57.253.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03925 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:39:48 -0400 Received: from gderian (dialcust-15.ts6.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.2.15]) by users.qual.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA00667 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <013f01bede87$287bb620$0f02d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <199908040900.FAA00405@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #448 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:46:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This doesn't directly address the cold start issue but injecting onto a closed valve provides better atomization because the puddle of fuel is hit by hot exhaust just as the intake valve opens. 250 ft-lb of torque and only 111 hp at 6000 rpm? That doesn't seem right. Gary Derian > > Based on the last dynamometer run, we found we were at about 12ms at > 6000RPM and pulling 111 HP and our goal is 125HP; We've been able to > get over 250ft/lbs Torque. This, at a little less than 75% duty cycle. > As I understand the reason for 'the name of the game' is to provide a > smooth unloaded idle. Since we turn a prop idling at about 900RPM we > have a little bit of a load so a slightly larger injector might keep me > under 75%. (I have a hardware limitation on pulse widths longer than > 75% if I plan my injection at low rpm for the intake stroke). > > But, injection is supposed to get rid of the need for a lot of the > excess fuel because it's sprayed almost directly onto the intake valve. > Spraying onto a closed intake valve when the engine is cold or just > warming up doesn't seem logical for a low pollution fuel efficient > engine. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 13:32:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07055 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:32:04 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07052 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:32:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199908041732.NAA07052@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.195]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA194 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:30:54 +1000 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 03:31:24 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: More Questions on cranking References: <199908040900.FAA00405@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, John wrote :- >I thought one of the injector's jobs was to atomize the fuel though. atomize = very small drops vapor = molecules Petrol drops burn like a candle. They have essentially two layers of combustion the ratio of which is controlled by chaos. As the drop surface vaporizes there are instants of both rich and lean combustion in very pretty patterns. The resultant gases are all bad news. Keep in mind the surface area/volume ratio. > (This is an remanufactured engine turning a propellor on a hovercraft or aircraft). > So we have to crack the throttle a little bit at startup. This has been the biggest obstacle to cold starting. If we open the throttle too far the MAP is > wrong compared to RPM and mixture is off. Don't even look at the Map sensor during cranking the signal from the sensor is useless as the engine is "cogging" and slowly to boot. The signal has both positive and negative excursions. For a high class test fit a vacuum gauge, and turn the engine over on the starter without fuel or spark. Don't borrow a gauge you can't afford to replace. Pick an appropriate amount say 7 ms and just squirt. If the engine fires it may go from 0 vacuum to 70 kPa and 600 rpm in 5 or 6 revolution. If this aircraft is flying above 5000 ft you would be well advised to reconnect the throttle body water supply. This will prevent freezing as the aluminum will out shrink the brass and lock it solid. This will make landings difficult and/or messy. Check your default for O2 sensor failure in closed loop and make sure it's not lean. Aircraft engines have a habit of operating under much higher average loads than cars. Thus a 70% load is not unusual. In most cars the average engine load is 10-15% This is not an appropriate load for 14.7:1 A/F in closed loop. If you have a broad band sensor then you will be able to target 12.5 - 13.0:1 A/F ratio. Under no circumstance should the engine boost at A/F of more than 13:1 it will simply melt after a few minutes. Imagine under what circumstance you would keep the throttle of a turbo car at 3/4 for 3 or 4 hours in closed loop. I know that auto makers are "dumb" but they have read the Bosch Blue Book. And the cost of the hoses was less important than a throttle stuck after a long run on the highway in freezing conditions. Remember that partial vacuum = cooling just as increased pressure = heating By the way how did you determine the injection amount vs map points for rpm vs load at 50, 100, 150 etc. rpm ? > Based on the last dynamometer run, we found we were at about 12 ms at > 6000 RPM and pulling 111 HP and our goal is 125 HP; We've been able to > get over 250 ft/lbs Torque. This, at a little less than 75% duty cycle. > As I understand the reason for 'the name of the game' is to provide a > smooth unloaded idle. Since we turn a prop idling at about 900 RPM we > have a little bit of a load so a slightly larger injector might keep me > under 75%. (I have a hardware limitation on pulse widths longer than >75% if I plan my injection at low rpm for the intake stroke). If you were firing the injector for 12 ms at 6000 rpm you were probably in another dimension. Lets see 6000 rpm = 100 rps or 1 revolution every 10 ms. I think you were missing injection cycles because you can't start the new event until you finish the old. The smaller the injector the smaller the spray and the better the atomization. etc. etc. as the drop is basically round the cube law applies in time vs droplet size. A drop with a diameter of 10% less has a mass of 50% less This stuff cost millions to learn with horrible cameras and engines with windows Take it as a given that the drops can't be too small. Why not use a single hall and a chopper with a differential width for the TDC indicator. Start a timer with the rising edge and stop it with the falling edge. The short one is TDC. > Spraying onto a closed intake valve when the engine is cold or just > warming up doesn't seem logical for a low pollution fuel efficient > engine. You use the words hot and cold like they mean something in an empirical sense. Express yourself in kelvin (K) and you hear a 20% change from "cold" to "Hot" Spraying into a sub atmospheric pressure gas stream , comprising one of the best insulators known to man that by the way has a terribly low specific heat seems like a waste of time unless the air is preheated. Some cars even use heating elements under the carby for this reason. Low pressure lowers boiling point but also gives less density and thus lowers the energy per specific volume of the air. Do the calculations on the heat that is required to vaporize the fuel and you will find that you need a generous donor. Heat is the issue and where to get it from is the problem. For that matter spray some on your hand. If you don't quantify your problem in SI units you won't come up with an SI answer. Question How many elephants fit in a phone booth ? Answer Some. If you leave out the units you won't pick the core issue The smoothest idle has the smallest cycle to cycle variation in combustion and that is hard to control if your target A/F is stoic. If you vary even a little say 15% leaner you will get a miss fire. This will decrease the vacuum level and cause the fragile chain to break. The rich tolerance for a "cold" engine is probably in the 100% range. The racer has to be separated from the idler. By all means PS When I say % I mean of course by mass not by A/F ratio. Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 14:49:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08226 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:49:48 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f275.hotmail.com [209.185.130.191]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26395 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:13:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 40351 invoked by uid 0); 3 Aug 1999 21:12:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19990803211245.40350.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.246.130.80 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:45 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.246.130.80] From: "David Sagers" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: TBI to Port Injection Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:45 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I ran into a brick wall with my DIY EFI project this morning. I'm converting a '92 Suburban TBI to a '90 TPI MAP system. I have about all the parts including the TPI system, brackets, cables, etc... Called this morning to buy the wiring harness and the tech at Painless Wiring said that I was headed for a big problem. The speed sensor in the Sub runs the speedometer and something to do with the brakes. He said the problem is that the TPI ECM uses a different speed sensor than the TBI uses. And they are vastly different in the signals they produce, are not interchangeable, nor can you run a dual sensor system. I remember seeing in a Jegs catalogue that Edelbrock sells a multi-port system that uses the the TBI computer but requires Edelbrock's chip to make this work. I called Edelbrock and they do not sell this chip separately, only with the full EFI set up. The Edelbrock system was a possibility until; 1) the tech said that his system is not big enough to feed the 400 SBC I have ready to go in the truck. The injectors are only 19 lbs/hr; 2)and the tech said that the cam I using would require a custom chip anyway. I may have given him the wrong specs on the cam because I bought a mild towing cam for the Suburban; 3) I've already paid for all the TPI stuff and really like the long runners on the TPI, not sure I can really afford to shell out another $1000 for Edelbrock system. Some where in the box with the TPI stuff is a harness adapter that is suppose to convert the TBI injector harness to an eight injector harness for the TPI. But the big question. Does anyone know of a chip maker that makes a chip that will allow my TBI computer run a TPI system? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 15:45:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09167 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:45:46 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09164 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:45:43 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id Q1SWQRWX; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:45:42 -0400 Message-ID: <37A89853.55B36F4@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:45:23 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #449 References: <199908041900.PAA08452@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Wiring said that I was headed for a big problem. The speed sensor in the > Sub runs the speedometer and something to do with the brakes. He said the Does your Suburban have rear anti-lock brakes? If so, you will lose this feature if you rewire the truck, and depending on your preference, this may or may not be an issue (I hate antilock on trucks, cars its cool). > this work. I called Edelbrock and they do not sell this chip separately, > only with the full EFI set up. This is how they make their money, I imagine - selling complete, integrated systems. > The Edelbrock system was a possibility until; 1) the tech said that his > system is not big enough to feed the 400 SBC I have ready to go in the Okay, you have a 400cid SBC, and TPI stuff of what? A 305 or 350? You should be able to use a 350ECM and be in the ballpark to get things started, and up the injector size one size to get the right flow - the GM systems are somewhat adaptive and with the MAP will "learn" your engine to some degree. Others here can correct me if they think I'm way off base... Longer runners on the TPI system are good for low/mid RPM towing... about 4k or less, above that, they tend to choke the engine, unless you port them as well as the intake (or replace with Accel runners, either way). > Some where in the box with the TPI stuff is a harness adapter that is > suppose to convert the TBI injector harness to an eight injector harness for > the TPI. Another option, which you may or may not like, is this. What did you take the 90 TPI setup from? You might be able to get that harness if its out of a junkyard car, and go through the agrevation of merging harnesses. I've done this a few times, and its not impossible, or really that bad. Hope you can determine wire color better than I can ::grin::, but its doable, and a LOT cheaper than a painless wiring setup, as good as painless is. -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 16:08:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09435 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:08:36 -0400 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09432 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:08:35 -0400 Received: from node141 ([10.0.0.141]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23387 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:08:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.01) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All; This comming weekend I'm building an intake for the LandRover. I have a few questions. 1) is there any use in trying to tune the intake ( like what was posted for header tuning? 2) I want to do tbi first then add tpi ( to make the tbi a redundant system) is there any problem laying a tbi on it's side?? Has anyone done a redundant efi system? Thanks I look forward to your Ideas -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 19:59:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12076 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:59:07 -0400 Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12073 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:59:06 -0400 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jSKKa06251 (2613) for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <52b457bf.24da2d9f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:58:23 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #449 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 250 ft-lb of torque and only 111 hp at 6000 rpm? That doesn't seem right. >> Torque * RPM / 5252 = HP So, 250 * 6000 / 5252 = 286 From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 20:45:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12581 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:45:37 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12578 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:45:36 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:46:09 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.12] by grolen.com id a5943.wrk; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:44:42 EDT Message-ID: <37A8DEBA.A46B3693@grolen.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:45:46 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: TBI to Port Injection References: <199908041900.PAA08452@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:45 PDT > From: "David Sagers" > Subject: TBI to Port Injection > > I ran into a brick wall with my DIY EFI project this morning. Ouch! Can you fix it? I'm > converting a '92 Suburban TBI to a '90 TPI MAP system. I have about all the > parts including the TPI system, brackets, cables, etc... > > Called this morning to buy the wiring harness and the tech at Painless > Wiring said that I was headed for a big problem. Ohh... LOL >The speed sensor in the > Sub runs the speedometer and something to do with the brakes. Yes, that something is called ABS, or RWAL (Rear Wheel AntiLock, a cousin of ABS) He said the > problem is that the TPI ECM uses a different speed sensor than the TBI uses. > And they are vastly different in the signals they produce, are not > interchangeable, nor can you run a dual sensor system. Now the dual sensor comment is untrue. With a competent machinist and enough money, anything's possible. ; ) > Ok, let's get that pained salesman straightened out. The computer is looking for a 2k or 4k pulse per mile speed signal input. The VSS in a 90 suburban outputs 40 pulses per driveshaft revolution. Now without knowing your tire size, gear ratio, or driving habits I can definitely say that this is not compatible. However... Have you seen the term DRAC mentioned on the list? Maybe in the archives? (hint, hint) Well, the DRAC's job is to take that 40 pulse/rev ac signal and turn it into 2k and 4k (and 128k) pulse/mile square wave output. Are things looking better? Now you'll need to locate one. Well, if you remove your glovebox and reach into the dash toward the driver's side, you should find a small white box about 3" X 2 1/2" taped or velcroed in. This is the beast you need. So what to do next? You'll need some wiring diagrams to connect it to the ecm. The schematic for the 747 and the 727 are in "incoming", and there may be a 730 pinout there also. Now that I've gotten around to it, you'll also find a file called dracnfo.zip which has unconfirmed drac pinouts, some pictures, and some instructions for using the DRAC with non-original configurations. For anyone who may have a version of this that's about 2 Meg, this one's a "lite" version, with some small corrections in the conversion instructions. > I remember seeing in a Jegs catalogue that Edelbrock sells a multi-port > system that uses the the TBI computer but requires Edelbrock's chip to make > this work. I called Edelbrock and they do not sell this chip separately, > only with the full EFI set up. Edelbrock does very little to their "conversion" chips. I'm sure a few other folks can back this up. > I've already paid for all the TPI stuff and really like the long runners on > the TPI, not sure I can really afford to shell out another $1000 for > Edelbrock system. > > Some where in the box with the TPI stuff is a harness adapter that is > suppose to convert the TBI injector harness to an eight injector harness for > the TPI. Really? I'd like a description of that. > > But the big question. Does anyone know of a chip maker that makes a chip > that will allow my TBI computer run a TPI system? You should stay with your TPI and TPI ECM. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 22:32:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14071 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:32:01 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14067 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:31:56 -0400 Received: (qmail 11339 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 02:31:56 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 02:31:56 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts2-h2-43-7.ispmodems.net [209.162.43.7]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA22736; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: RE: Ecu 6 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:34:57 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Tom, My appology for the confusion. I am offering to sell people BLANK PC boards for $37. They include no components. I only wish it were that cheap to make thes things! Perhaps some background will help. Having PC boards made in small quantities is extremely expensive. I got a special discount on the last batch for ECU6 - it cost me $160 for 4 boards (with plated through-holes, but no silkscreen or solder mask). The estimate on the ECU7 boards is about $100 per pair. The components were purchased from 3 or 4 different sources, but probably cost less than $100 for all of them (in single quantities). The board then took 3 or 4 hours to assemble, and even more time to get the software loaded the first time. To date I have built only one ECU6 board (that was about a year ago...it still works fine). I hope this helps. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: RSRACE@aol.com [mailto:RSRACE@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:23 AM > To: efi@cardozo.org > Subject: Re: Ecu 6 > > > One more question to ask. Does the board come with all the components > soldered on like the pictures you have on the web site? If so > all I have to > do is make a box to house the unit and run the wiring. I know > have to get > all the related sensors. It's looking good so far > > Thanks Again > Tom > > From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 4 23:44:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15004 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:44:43 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA15000 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:44:41 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.33] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11CES5-0006eVC for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00c401bedef5$89a50640$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: More Questions on cranking Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:45:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 03:31:24 +1000 >From: Phil Lamovie >Subject: More Questions on cranking > >Hi All, > >John wrote :- > >>I thought one of the injector's jobs was to atomize the fuel though. > >atomize = very small drops vapor = molecules > >Petrol drops burn like a candle. They have essentially two layers of >combustion the ratio of which is controlled by chaos. As the drop >surface vaporizes >there are instants of both rich and lean combustion in very pretty >patterns. The resultant gases are all bad news. Keep in mind the >surface area/volume ratio. Got it! >Don't even look at the Map sensor during cranking the signal from the >sensor >is useless as the engine is "cogging" and slowly to boot. The signal >has both positive and negative excursions. For a high class test fit a >vacuum gauge, and turn the engine over on the starter without fuel >or spark. Don't borrow a gauge you can't afford to replace. > >Pick an appropriate amount say 7 ms and just squirt. If the engine >fires it may go >from 0 vacuum to 70 kPa and 600 rpm in 5 or 6 revolution. Good point. My starting algo. has a pulse width from 10ms with MAP == Ambient to 4.5ms at 8". So The cranking gives it a couple of shots of rich mixture and once the engine accelerates the mixture leans out to my cold running value. Hot starts are even more efficient and start with only a tiny puff of black smoke. > >If this aircraft is flying above 5000 ft you would be well advised to >reconnect the throttle body water supply. This will prevent freezing >as the aluminum will out shrink the brass and lock it solid. This will >make landings difficult and/or messy. I'm not sure the throttle body water supply actually warms the throttle body. What happens as far as I can see is this: Bi-metal strip inside assembly when cold allows a certain amount of air to bypass the throttle plate. As the engine warms up the coolent warms the strip which slowly closes (or reduces the opening anyway) and in essence reduces the idle speed. Connected to this interesting assembly is the idle air bypass motor which doesn't allow air past the throttle plate but allows warm water past the bi-metal strip which opens and allows air past the throttle plate. Convoluted? Yes. > >Check your default for O2 sensor failure in closed loop and make sure >it's not lean. >Aircraft engines have a habit of operating under much higher average >loads than cars. >Thus a 70% load is not unusual. In most cars the average engine load >is 10-15% >This is not an appropriate load for 14.7:1 A/F in closed loop. If you >have a broad band sensor then you will be able to target 12.5 - 13.0:1 >A/F ratio. > >Under no circumstance should the engine boost at A/F of more than 13:1 >it will >simply melt after a few minutes. Imagine under what circumstance you >would keep the throttle of a turbo car at 3/4 for 3 or 4 hours in >closed loop. Boy you've got that right. I mades sure that the engine ran slightly rich (1100 degree EGT readings) open loop. Then when I enabled the O2 closed loop, the mixture leans out and I reached 1350 degrees. I'm told they like to run the engines at 70% to 80% at about 1450 degrees so I have some room for tweeking. The ambient air pressure sensor should handle changes in altitude to ensure that the mixture doesn't go lean or rich with changes in altitude or weather. > >I know that auto makers are "dumb" but they have read the Bosch Blue >Book. Bosch Blue Book???? > >And the cost of the hoses was less important than a throttle stuck >after a long run on the highway in freezing conditions. Remember that >partial vacuum = cooling just as increased pressure = heating Good point. I know there is warm water in the intake manifold, I'll check into how far that heat goes. > >By the way how did you determine the injection amount vs map points >for rpm vs load at 50, 100, 150 etc. rpm ? > I worked backwards. Not knowing the size of the stock Honda Injectors I made assumptions on Honda's HP and Torque ratings along with displacement and RPM. Then calculated, based on what I figured the injectors should be, and installed a series of percent values into a VE table indexed by RPM. I have an initial mixture based on RPM; cranking(9%), idle(14.5%), running(14.7%) and accelerating(?). MAP/Ambient modfies the mixture. The VE value also modifies this mixture. There is also a cold enrichment based on engine temperature that decreases as the engine warms up. Once the engine is warm the O2 loop closes. If acceleration occurs (TPS change), the O2 loop is broken until either n strokes or m milliseconds. Haven't got the Accel quite right yet; engine stumbles a bit under really quick throttle increase. Also my O2 loop is only using the P of a PID algo. I'd actually like to change that to a fuzzy logic algo. I also used a number of different articles from Bruce Bowling, Al Grippo, Ed Lansinger as the starting point. > >If you were firing the injector for 12 ms at 6000 rpm you were >probably >in another dimension. Lets see 6000 rpm = 100 rps or 1 revolution >every >10 ms. I think you were missing injection cycles because you can't >start the >new event until you finish the old. OH! I get it. This is why you suggested injecting during the exhaust cycle; you inject once every revolution. It brings up an interesting question too. When an injector is rated at 80% duty cycle to avoid overheating I've often wondered: 80% of what. 80 minutes on for every 100 minutes.... silly. I'm running a 720 degree engine cycle. At 6000 rpm this is 3000 CAM RPM which is 20ms per revolution and 12/20 is 60% duty cycle. My run log for this afternoon shows 6200RPM and 12.49ms duty cycle which is about 65%. O2 sensor was at exactly 0.5V and this stayed steady for about 2 minutes. No EGT sensors available for this run. We were turning a propellor of undetermined origins but the injector pulse width suggests that we were not at the maximum horsepower compared to our Dyno runs. I would have richened up the mixture at 6200 RPM had the muffler not fallen off and melted through the fuel pump wiring. sigh...... second time today. For the next test we've added bailing wire. ;-) Tomorrow we will finish installing the ducted fan used in the hovercrafts. With Allison Throttle Bodies or SU carburators we've achieved 125HP but the SUs aren't really good for airplanes and the Allisons are expensive and require the pilot to adjust mixture at altitude. My barometric pressure sensor should dispense with that problem. >Why not use a single hall and a chopper with a differential width for >the TDC >indicator. Start a timer with the rising edge and stop it with the >falling edge. >The short one is TDC. We ran into a physical size problem for mounting the sensors etc. My first proto. used a slotted wheel exactly as you described for initial board and algo testing on the electric motor drive. Our reduction drive is at the Flywheel end of the engine and that's where the distributor used to be. We now have an end plate over the hole. By switching to small magnets and latching hall sensors we were able to use our older model ignition with mechanical fuel injection (allison throttle body) (or SU carb) by only changing the position of the magnets. I then don't have to try and figure out by checking timers for short verses long on edges etc. as to where TDC is. My sensors are configured as a 2 bit Grey Code absolute position encoder. Interrupting on the edges therefore tells me TDC for each cyl. i.e. the two sensor values translate directly into a 2 bit integer representing the cyclinder #. > >If you leave out the units you won't pick the core issue Understood. > >The smoothest idle has the smallest cycle to cycle variation in >combustion and that is hard to control if your target A/F is stoic. If >you vary even a little say 15% leaner you will get a miss fire. This >will decrease the vacuum level and cause the fragile chain to break. >The rich tolerance for a "cold" engine is probably in the 100% range. When we are cold the engine runs a little rough. I probably haven't got the mixture perfect for warmup. But, once warm, soooo smooth. Lack of any intake/exhaust valve overlap up to 4000RPM probably has a lot to do with that and then, at 4000RPM when the CAM profile changes... wow! the engine just wants to go and go it does. I'll keep you informed. Regards, John From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 00:17:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15423 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:17:38 -0400 Received: from ar.ar.com.au (root@ar.ar.com.au [203.18.148.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15420 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:17:35 -0400 Received: from kojab.ar.com.au (dialup178.ar.com.au [203.18.148.178]) by ar.ar.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/AR-1.1) with SMTP id OAA18028 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:17:34 +1000 Message-ID: <37A91E04.7BBD@ar.com.au> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 15:15:48 +1000 From: Richard Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Injector flow rates needed. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, Does anyone know the flow rate of these injectors? 1) 0 280 150 973 Its impedence is 12 ohms It is out of the VT Holden Commodore V8 Sequential engine. 2) 0 280 150 775 3) 0 280 150 960 Thanks in advance. Cheers Richard From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 07:51:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA18906 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:51:41 -0400 Received: from mail.tqci.net (mail.tqci.net [207.199.191.231]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18903 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:51:39 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:49:44 -0400 Message-Id: <199908050749.AA1327432432@mail.tqci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Charles Brooks" To: Subject: Injector flow rates needed X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Richard, check here for injector info. It's a list of injectors from several different Mfr.'s There are flow rates, applications, and some usefull equations. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/Injector.rtf Charles Brooks ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (DIY_EFI Digest) Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 05:00:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 15:15:48 +1000 From: Richard Wakeling Subject: Injector flow rates needed. Hi All, Does anyone know the flow rate of these injectors? 1) 0 280 150 973 Its impedence is 12 ohms It is out of the VT Holden Commodore V8 Sequential engine. 2) 0 280 150 775 3) 0 280 150 960 Thanks in advance. Cheers Richard From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 08:04:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19047 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:04:37 -0400 Received: from server.tac.com.au (server.tac.com.au [203.102.210.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA19041 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:04:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 16519 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 22:04:31 +1000 Received: from dialup.tac.com.au (HELO leigh) (203.29.155.6) by server.tac.com.au with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 22:04:31 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990805213716.0069ba40@tac.com.au> X-Sender: lee@tac.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:57:56 +1000 To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: leigh Subject: re #447 starting cranking problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Iam a new subscriber to DIY_EFI and have read with great interest the last couple of issues. First off internal combustion petrol engines use atomised fuel not vapour. Vapour is whats left in the tank when you run out of petrol. The terminoligy of COLD/HOT starts is techincally Incorrect but most people no that COLD is ambiant temp which can change drastically from locations and HOT is operting temp ie aprox 85 to 100 C on late model high pressure cooling systems. I think we get blinded by technology to ofter and forget the basics. As far as start / crank injection timing goes you need to set paramters for varied ambiant & coolant temps. Most factory systems fire one block of all injectors on the first crank pulse then consective pulses while engine speed is below a predeturmand leval. This pulse can be changed large amounts ie between 4ms to 20 + ms depending on air & coolant temprature, cold, warm or hot start. On a rpm signal above the predturmand leval they then switch to idle run fuel blocks and muck lower pulse rates. I have had recent experiance with a engine that had hot start problemsdue to the ecu not returning to start mode and only pulsing injectors for 5 ms, idle volume, when the fuel hit the valve head it vapourized and would not start. The pulse timing for hot start should have been around 15 ms. Iam still waiting for the injectors flow rate to work out the fuel volume per cyliner size to get a base start line. regards Leigh Turner From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 12:40:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22807 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:40:18 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22804 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:40:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 10472 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 16:40:15 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 16:40:15 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts3-h1-43-140.ispmodems.net [209.162.43.140]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA03726; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:40:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: "leigh" , "EFI" Subject: RE: purchase efi332 boards Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:43:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990805202334.0069ba40@tac.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To avoid further confusion, here's the deal with the ECU6 boards. I have three of them left for sale. They cost $37 each plus shipping. These are bare printed circuit boards (no components). I will sell them to the first three people who contact me to arrange for shipping and payment. Once they are gone, there are no more (ECU7 boards may be available in a few months, but no guarantees). I am not at all involved with the EFI332 project - you must contact the appropriate people for buying those parts. I hope this clears things up. Al efi@cardozo.org > -----Original Message----- > From: leigh [mailto:lee@tac.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 4:58 AM > To: efi@cardozo.org > Subject: purchase efi332 boards > > > Hello from Australia, i have only recently found your web site & digest. I > wish to purchase the following if availible > 2 CPU 6 boards > 2 BDM boards > 2 I/O boards > 4 DRIVER boards. > I tried to obtain prices & status from the GROUP BUY page > but could not access it.If you could let me know by how > much and the best way to send you the money. > With Thanks > LEIGH TURNER > lee@tac.com.au > From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 12:49:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22951 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:49:57 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22943 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:49:56 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.34] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11CQiC-0006ebC for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201bedf63$43fd4260$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: External Injection Fuel Pump Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:53:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Does anyone have a source for externally mounted fuel pumps for injection systems. Can't put the pump in the tank. We need only about 40PSI. Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 15:22:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25146 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:22:24 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f115.hotmail.com [209.185.131.178]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25141 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:22:22 -0400 Received: (qmail 56336 invoked by uid 0); 5 Aug 1999 19:21:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19990805192151.56334.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.246.130.80 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:21:51 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.246.130.80] From: "David Sagers" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: TBI to TPI Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:21:51 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Shannen Thanks for responding, I really appreciate your help as it sounds like you really know your stuff on this subject. In fact, you are way over my head! Mind if I ask a few questions. As you suggested, I looked at the archives a searched for DRAC, found about 5 messages and the most useful is: Formula to find divide ratio when using General Motors DRAC speed sensor and changing gear ratios, tire sizes, and etc. Input Ratio=63360/RC*XR*P/128000 63360= #of inches in a mile RC= tire circumference in inches XR= axle ratio P= # of speed sensor output pulses per output shaft revolution. The 700R4 with VSS (not speedo cable) is 40 pulse/rev. 128,000 pulses per mile is DRAC output to RWAL module in fullsize pickup application. Rolling circumference is preferred method of obtaining tire circumference. Mark line on tire and corresponding line on floor. Roll vehicle back until tire makes complete revolution. Mark 2nd line on floor and measure distance between 2 lines. This is actual rolling tire circumference. (Circumference=(Pi)(Diameter) for estimating purposes.) Look up input ratio on chart to find proper jumper settings. Notes: DRAC is designed to use AC input signal. 73.8" rolling circumference and 3.73 axle ratio yeild 1.00 divide ratio. 747 ECM receives 1.11hz/mph signal Sounds like I need to try to reprogram the signal to the ECM? This might be more than I have enough experience to pull off. So I'm facing two routes. 1 - Don't try to reporgram the DRAC signal to the ECM. What happens if I if I just follow the instructions for the aftermarket harness? Basically the instructions for the VSS say there are two wires for the VSS. If you connect them correctly the speedo will work. If the speedo doesn't work then the wires are connected backwards. Will I lose the ABS function of the rear brakes? Will I lose the ABS for the front brakes? Any other features on the truck I'll lose? 2 - Dig into the DRAC and try to figure out the programming. In order to change this do I need to use a chip programmer? What I'm saying is that I read and re-read your message and can't quite figure out how to pull off the change. Any help in explaining would be very much appreciated!! >Ok, let's get that pained salesman straightened out. The >computer is looking for a 2k or 4k pulse per mile speed signal input. >The VSS in a 90 suburban outputs 40 pulses per driveshaft revolution. >Now without knowing your tire size, gear ratio, or driving habits I >can definitely say that this is not compatible. However... >Have you seen the term DRAC mentioned on the list? Maybe in the >archives? (hint, hint) Well, the DRAC's job is to take that 40 >pulse/rev ac signal and turn it into 2k and 4k (and 128k) pulse/mile >square >wave output. >Are things looking better? > >Now you'll need to locate one. Well, if you remove your >glovebox and reach into the dash toward the driver's side, you should >find a small white box about 3" X 2 1/2" taped or velcroed in. This >is the beast you need. >So what to do next? > >You'll need some wiring diagrams to connect it to the ecm. The >schematic for the 747 and the 727 are in "incoming", and there may be >a 730 pinout there also. Now that I've gotten around to it, you'll >also find a file called dracnfo.zip which has unconfirmed drac >pinouts, some pictures, and some instructions for using the DRAC with >non-original configurations. For anyone who may have a version of >this that's about 2 Meg, this one's a "lite" version, with some small >corrections in the conversion instructions. >Shannen _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 19:04:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28813 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:04:09 -0400 Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com [192.161.36.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28810 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:04:07 -0400 Received: from stl-hub-01.boeing.com ([192.48.21.13]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id QAA12518 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-smtpin-01.boeing.com by stl-hub-01.boeing.com with ESMTP for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:59 -0700 Received: from hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com (hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com [134.51.1.44]) by blv-smtpin-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.9.0-M2) with ESMTP id QAA16136 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com [134.51.1.60]) by hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA19085 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:54 -0700 (MST) Received: (from tc75918@localhost) by hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA00984 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:53 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Message-Id: <199908052303.QAA00984@hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com> Subject: Electronic transmission controller? To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (EFI ) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:52 -0700 (MST) Organization: McDonnell Douglas Helicopter X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anybody ever worked on a controller for the GM electronic trannies? Specifically the 4L60-E? What about a commercial one? Is there one available that's stand-alone and adjustable? Were the OEM controllers stand-alone or part of the EFI computer? Is there an aftermarket efi controller (Haltech, TEC, Wolf, etc?) that can also control this tranny? thanks --Dan houlster@inficad.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 21:50:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA30277 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:50:16 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA30274 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:50:15 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:50:43 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.15] by grolen.com id ae290.wrk; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:49:18 EDT Message-ID: <37AA3F5C.4E45B68A@grolen.com> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:50:20 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Fw: Suburban VSS info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A gentleman just brought this info to my attention: > JTR "Jagsthatrun.com" markets a > device to read his Suburban DRAC output in 4KPPM and converts it so a 730 or > 727 ECM can read it. I've used one for a year in a customer's TPI S-10 with > no problems. Its about $45. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 5 22:05:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA30417 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:05:53 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA30414 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:05:52 -0400 Received: (qmail 8237 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 02:05:51 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:05:51 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts6-h1-54-61.ispmodems.net [209.162.54.61]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA19244; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: RE: Ecu 6 Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:08:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The software is all in the file, but you will need access to an EPROM/Device programmer to program the flash memory. I put the board together with a standard soldering iron, but used a very fine tip (and a somewhat steady hand) for the CPU socket. Most parts came from a local electronics store, some from Allied, Hamilton-Avnet and Digi-Key (I think the RAM was from Mosel-Vitelic directly, however I'm sure you can find other distributors). I don't have anything sophistocated here. I used ice cube trays to sort the parts and just used sockets for all of the ICs. That's about it. Good luck. Al > From: RSRACE@aol.com [mailto:RSRACE@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:32 AM > To: efi@cardozo.org > Subject: Re: Ecu 6 > > > I'm not an electronics whiz but if the schematics are good and I > have a parts > list and who to get them from I guess I should be able to do it. Is the > software in your download to load the program into the unit? Is > there any > special soldering tools needed to do the job or can I do it with standard > soldering iron. I'm trying to learn more about the electronics and > programming because I would like to build several controllers for > my car to > valves for boost control, water injection, and a secondary valve > controller. > If you think I can do it with standard equipment I'll get it. > > Thanks Again > Tom > From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 05:50:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01700 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 05:50:08 -0400 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01697 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 05:50:07 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jMSRa06597 (14450) for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 05:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9fdc0dfc.24dc099c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 05:49:16 EDT Subject: tbi to tpi To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I could be completely wrong with this, but I have done swaps like this in the past with no problems.....Ludis,Terry and others might have some more insight on this.......yes the signal from the vss is diff...but all the 730 cares is: has tps lowered and has vss lowered....therefore decel enleanment...you will have to play with some of the mph and tps stuff in your 730 chip but you can make it work......pulses per mile is the area that needs to be changed for correct lockup of the torque convertor....,,,,,,,if I am missing something guys I would love the feedback. hth's -Carl Summers In a message dated 8/4/99 12:18:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:45 PDT From: "David Sagers" Subject: TBI to Port Injection I ran into a brick wall with my DIY EFI project this morning. I'm converting a '92 Suburban TBI to a '90 TPI MAP system. I have about all the parts including the TPI system, brackets, cables, etc... Called this morning to buy the wiring harness and the tech at Painless Wiring said that I was headed for a big problem. The speed sensor in the Sub runs the speedometer and something to do with the brakes. He said the problem is that the TPI ECM uses a different speed sensor than the TBI uses. And they are vastly different in the signals they produce, are not interchangeable, nor can you run a dual sensor system. I remember seeing in a Jegs catalogue that Edelbrock sells a multi-port system that uses the the TBI computer but requires Edelbrock's chip to make this work. I called Edelbrock and they do not sell this chip separately, only with the full EFI set up. The Edelbrock system was a possibility until; 1) the tech said that his system is not big enough to feed the 400 SBC I have ready to go in the truck. The injectors are only 19 lbs/hr; 2)and the tech said that the cam I using would require a custom chip anyway. I may have given him the wrong specs on the cam because I bought a mild towing cam for the Suburban; 3) I've already paid for all the TPI stuff and really like the long runners on the TPI, not sure I can really afford to shell out another $1000 for Edelbrock system. Some where in the box with the TPI stuff is a harness adapter that is suppose to convert the TBI injector harness to an eight injector harness for the TPI. But the big question. Does anyone know of a chip maker that makes a chip that will allow my TBI computer run a TPI system? >> From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 06:34:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02223 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:34:43 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02220 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:34:41 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 06 Aug 1999 06:35:17 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.10] by grolen.com id 34380.wrk; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:33:48 EDT Message-ID: <37AABA47.44514895@grolen.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 06:34:47 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Electronic transmission controller? References: <199908060900.FAA01232@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:52 -0700 (MST) > From: d houlton x0710 > Subject: Electronic transmission controller? > > Anybody ever worked on a controller for the GM electronic trannies? > Specifically the 4L60-E? What about a commercial one? Is there one > available that's stand-alone and adjustable? > > Were the OEM controllers stand-alone or part of the EFI computer? I don't know about the 4L60E, but the diesels with mechanical injection and 4L80E had a trans controller. There's a company that reprograms them to use with NA diesels, I can't remember their name. Any car or gas engine truck with the 4L60E should have EFI, and trans control is in the same computer as EFI. Shannen > > Is there an aftermarket efi controller (Haltech, TEC, Wolf, etc?) that > can also control this tranny? > > thanks > - --Dan > houlster@inficad.com > From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 10:20:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04405 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:20:49 -0400 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04401 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:20:47 -0400 Received: from relay1.corp.sgi.com (spindle.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.13]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id HAA09206 for <@external-mail-relay.sgi.com:diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:19:50 -0700 (PDT) mail_from (pjb@gt350.corp.sgi.com) Received: from gt350.corp.sgi.com (gt350.corp.sgi.com [192.102.118.103]) by relay1.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA79816 for <@relay.corp.sgi.com:diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjb@localhost) by gt350.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id HAA06486 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: pjb@gt350.corp.sgi.com (Pete Boggini) Message-Id: <199908061413.HAA06486@gt350.corp.sgi.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #451 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:13:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199908051900.PAA24621@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "DIY_EFI Digest" at Aug 5, 99 03:00:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME5a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu John Dammeyer asked: > Subject: External Injection Fuel Pump > > Hi, > > Does anyone have a source for externally mounted fuel pumps for > injection systems. Can't put the pump in the tank. We need only about > 40PSI. > Yes. Try the E2000 from Airtex. Its the stock replacement pump for Ford F-series trucks, XR4Tii's, etc. Its an 80-90PSI rating with about 38GPH. Try 1-800-4-airtex for more info. The pump ranges in price from about $75.00 to about $125.00. peterb From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 13:03:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06969 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:03:43 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06966 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:03:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199908061703.NAA06966@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.235]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA98 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:02:28 +1000 Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 03:03:04 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Acceleration enrichment Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #450 References: <199908050900.FAA17731@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, For a simple solution to acc enrichment start by creating a FIFO stack of say ten counts. Read TPS every 10 ms. Algorithm should respond in a linear fashion to the diff b/w first and last. Say 100% of additional fuel for 200% change in A/D value. A single integer value of X ms will give you an adjustable ramp rate. This is a simple feed forward system The harder part is to arrange a proportional decay vs rate of change of rpm If the engine rpm changes quickly you should decay the additional ms proportionally if the rate of change is slow then the enrichment should be adjusted to suit. Of course for an engine that has a very poor chance of acc quickly relative to say a blipped throttle during a down change this is really of little import. On the matter of duty cycle it's more to do with lousy linearity of an injector at either end of the scale 0-2 ms is considers to be unusable due to lack of repeatability. With 0.5 - 1.1 ms just to open this gives rise to variations cycle to cycle of more than 8 %. Makes it hard to pass US pollution laws. At the other end of the scale the rate of collapse of the magnetic field and the fuel pressure together with pintle bounce mean that 90 % duty cycle could in fact mean that the injector never closes. F1 engine at 16,000 rpm has 3.75 ms per rev losing 0.5 to open and 0.65 to close would give a max. of 2.6 ms. Thus one injection per 2 revs. And you were worried about timing the injection to coincide with valve train events. Be wary of any O2 sensor voltage vs A/F ratio inferences. If you don't correct for temp there is a drift of 1.5 A/F over 400 deg c. And that's for the expensive BROAD BAND device. A single wire sensor can't be trusted at all. For any peace of mind use a 4 Gas analyser and EGT. Then refer to EGT and infer A/F from that. Be sure to refer to the properties of steel/wire/bailing in the BLUE BOOK to aid with exhaust mounting redesign For the key to all things in auto tech The Bosch Automotive Handbook SAE order no is BOSCH4 (4th Edition) It's blue !! ISBN 1-56091-918-3 best $35.00 you will ever spend. DISCLAIMER .......I am a hopeless addict of the SAE book store and would buy everything if I could. Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 17:38:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA11980 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:38:52 -0400 Received: from mercury.mv.net (root@mercury.mv.net [199.125.85.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11977 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:38:51 -0400 Received: from DORA (darkstar.mv.com [199.125.78.23]) by mercury.mv.net (8.8.8/mem-971025) with SMTP id RAA28583 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990806094018.011c77e8@199.125.85.40> X-Sender: darkstar-ma@199.125.85.40 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:40:18 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: DRAC and Tranny computers. In-Reply-To: <199908060900.FAA01232@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 8/6/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Look up input ratio on chart to find proper jumper settings. > Chart, what chart? You have a chart? I'd really, really like to see a copy of it (fax, scan, whatever). >Subject: Electronic transmission controller? > >Anybody ever worked on a controller for the GM electronic trannies? >Specifically the 4L60-E? What about a commercial one? Is there one >available that's stand-alone and adjustable? > >Were the OEM controllers stand-alone or part of the EFI computer? > >Is there an aftermarket efi controller (Haltech, TEC, Wolf, etc?) that >can also control this tranny? Well... yes, and no. Actually both. The NA diesel engines use a TCM to control the transmission, there is nothing electronic/electrical to managing the engine. The gas engine uses a shared PCM, which controlls the transmission and engine at teh same time. These units are not directly interchangable however. Aftermarket... Jet is a good bet for a standalone unit. All this is for a 4L80E, but the concept is basically the same. Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 18:09:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12375 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:09:49 -0400 Received: from mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12372 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:09:48 -0400 Received: from stupidpc ([12.77.204.150]) by mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19990806220917.DDAE1873@stupidpc> for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:09:17 +0000 From: "the Fredericks" To: Subject: Electronic transmission controller Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:13:36 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bee058$eda7e5e0$96cc4d0c@stupidpc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199908061900.PAA08859@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Felpro now markets a stand-alone transmission controller for the 4L80E and 4L60E called the TCU. The MOTEC systems are the only aftermarket controllers I know of which can control these transmissions. Art Carr, for one, offers diesel transmission computers with reprogrammed shift characteristics. Kendall Frederick Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 06:34:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Electronic transmission controller? > > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:03:52 -0700 (MST) > From: d houlton x0710 > Subject: Electronic transmission controller? > > Anybody ever worked on a controller for the GM electronic trannies? > Specifically the 4L60-E? What about a commercial one? Is there one > available that's stand-alone and adjustable? > > Were the OEM controllers stand-alone or part of the EFI computer? I don't know about the 4L60E, but the diesels with mechanical injection and 4L80E had a trans controller. There's a company that reprograms them to use with NA diesels, I can't remember their name. Any car or gas engine truck with the 4L60E should have EFI, and trans control is in the same computer as EFI. Shannen > > Is there an aftermarket efi controller (Haltech, TEC, Wolf, etc?) that > can also control this tranny? > > thanks > - --Dan > houlster@inficad.com > From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 18:15:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12437 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:15:10 -0400 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12433 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:15:07 -0400 Received: from RALPH.MAYO.EDU by mhro1.mayo.edu for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:14:55 -0500 Received: from [129.176.176.33] by 129.176.176.33 with SMTP; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:19:07 -0500 X-Sender: strausbauch@ralph.mayo.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Mike Strausbauch Subject: fuel starvation and stalling Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:14:56 -0500 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu GenevaHello all, my subscription atempt to get on the list bounced so you will have to respond by email to "strausbauch@mayo.edu" I have a fuel problem that is driving me nuts. I have a 1988 dodge caravan with the 3.0 liter v6 multiport fuel-injection system (130K miles all original fuel system componets). I have what I believe to be a low pressure or no fuel delivery problem on extremely hot days. This has occured 2 years ago on a trip thru South Dak. near Sturgis during Harley Days (of all the times to be stuck on the interstate this was it because of the wall to wall people there was a lot of company and assistance.). Now It's happened again under similar circumstances. After driving all day in record Hot temps for this part of the country @ 100 F. on a clear day with the sun beating down on the road and cruising at the speed limit (70) in the middle to late afternoon the car will have a very light stumble. About 30 sec's later it will stumble again and and they will come more quickly and more violent so that over the course of 4-5 min the car will stall and the engine die. At the end the surges are quite violent. If you ease off the gas the car will run smoothly but there isn't enough power to maintain speed and in the end you end up about the same distance as you would otherwise. After sitting 10-15 min you can get about 1/4 mile down the road- further if you wait longer. During a surge the engine seems to be able to pull the van normally. But it won't start at all if you try imediately. The car might fire but will die before you can get it in gear. Sometimes I think I can hear the fuel pump running quite a bit while the car is trying to stall out. I have been using 10% methanol reg gas (we are in the corn belt), and the engine doesn't seem to be overheating. And the oil pressure is good as far as I can tell and I can hear the fuel pump running so I don't think its cutting power to the fuel pump. I have Just changed the fuel filter thinking that the flow of fuel might be reduced and might have a vapor problem up at the fuel rails but the old filter didn't seem to be blocked after I replaced it. Could this be a cavitation problem at the fuel pump or a vapor lock in the fuel line since it runs the length of the van right next to the exhaust system? (I thought it was near impossiable to vapor lock a pump-in-the-tank system.) please, any suggestions would be helpful, strausbauch@mayo.edu. From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 18:33:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12622 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:33:58 -0400 Received: from cyberlynk.com (cyberlynk.com [207.104.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12619 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:33:57 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cyberlynk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03124 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:46:32 -0700 Received: from UNKNOWN(207.104.52.98), claiming to be "ppp498mer.cyberlynk.com" via SMTP by cyberlynk.com, id smtpda03121; Fri Aug 6 15:46:27 1999 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: UEGO AFR Precision Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:46:01 -0700 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <38525307.440314300@mail.cyberlynk.com> References: <199908061900.PAA08859@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199908061900.PAA08859@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id SAA12620 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 07 Aug 1999 03:03:04 +1000 Phil Lamovie wrote: >Be wary of any O2 sensor voltage vs A/F ratio inferences. If you >don't correct for temp there is a drift of 1.5 A/F over 400 deg >c. And that's for the expensive BROAD BAND device. Whoa, not so fast; you wanna always QUALIFY *which* so-called UEGO you're refering to. The last generation Bosch non-current-pump wideband varieties, such as the LSM-11, I wouldn't be too surprised if they DID vary 1.5AFR over 400degC (their spec is only given for a 250degC range, so I dunno), but that does NOT apply to the NTK current-pump sensors, nor the Bosch LSU current-pump sensor. Hell, that'd be bloody 10%, mate! I hope that's not what you're getting from some broadband UEGO equipment you are using! Sadly, Bosch hasn't published much of anything on their "LSU" sensor itself AFAIK, so I dunno what the raw sensor specs are like, but I have seen a operator's manual for their LA-3 meter that's based on it, and their box, unlike most of the NTK-based devices, DOES regulate the heater voltage, using no less than a PID controller (for those unfamiliar, that's control system jargon for a "Proportional Integral Differential" controller), basically a fairly powerful controller method, just for the heater current/temps. But the NTK data seems to indicate that this isn't really necessary until you wanna reach "lab equipment" precisions. The rumor someone spread a couple years ago, BTW, that the NTK sensor's heater would burn out if connected directly to batt. is a myth, a veritable automotive urban legend. Course I imagine if you DO tightly regulate smack at 12V, you're right in the middle of the operating range temp-wise AND you've eliminated most of the temp dependant variations. That's noice. :) Bosch may have also opted for a construction on the LSU that minimizes exh. pressure dependencies, at the expense of temp. variations (see below), and that's maybe WHY they need to go so such extremes in heater regulation, for their AFR meters. Since you're a confessed SAE addict, you probly have the seminal SAE paper on the NTK/NGK sensors, and in there (#920234), you'll find a graph on pg. 30 (figs. 14 & 15) where the AFR is within a band of +-0.2AFR on both lean & rich sides of stoich, over the usable operating temp range of the sensor (600degC to 950degC), which is also within the heater's range of temp authority over a varying batt. voltage of 10-14.5V. I've confirmed these AFR delta specs in testing the soon-to-emerge EGOR systems, but then again, I haven't tested a bazillion diff. sensors, admittedly. Because of the strongly positive temp. coefficient of the heater element, even if the heater voltage were regulated, the heater current would adaptively increase/decrease with corresponding decrease/increase in EGTs, so I think that graph is meant to demonstrate the sensitivity of those sensors to tip temperature overall, as well as the variation IN tip temperature that can be expected over varying battery voltage alone. The article, I have to acknowledge is kinda old ('92), and it appears that the sensor "design" they actually deployed, in OEM applications at least, is NOT as sensitive to exhaust pressure as they indicate. I wanna test a lot more sensors before releasing any exh. pressure compensation data for EGOR, so that's all I'll say at this point. They mention in this article that they have a tradeoff point they must pick when constructing the sensor, between temp sensitivity and pressure sensitivity, and that they opted for reduced temp sensitivity. That discussion is on the bottom of page 28, and is pretty interesting. We haven't found NEARLY the level of exhaust gas pressure dependency that the paper suggests in their graph on the same page (fig. 11), so I think they must have made some 'other' tradeoffs in the process of actual mfg. & deployment in the field. Suffice it to say, it doesn't appear they've done anything to mess with the low temp sensitivity, tho. When EGOR-the-module get's announced here shortly (real soonium, now), I'll discuss some of the details on the testing apparatus we've used on the Honda/NTK sensors, for both temp & pressure, AND some special surprise tricks on calibration if you wanna get REAL high precision with EGOR. >DISCLAIMER .......I am a hopeless addict of the SAE book store >and would buy everything if I could. I'm sure you'd be welcome to join the nearest SAE bookaholic's anonymous chapter. You'd find there, MANY souls just like yerself, from all walks of life. :) [Just too damn bad the drugs are soooo blinkin spendy!] Gar From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 18:35:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12638 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:35:01 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA12635 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:35:00 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.148] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11CsZh-0006eFC for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <008401bee05c$a584f600$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #453 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:39:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 03:03:04 +1000 >From: Phil Lamovie >Subject: Acceleration enrichment Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #450 > >Hi All, > >For a simple solution to acc enrichment start by creating a FIFO >stack of say >ten counts. Read TPS every 10 ms. Algorithm should respond in a >linear fashion to the diff b/w first and last. Say 100% of >additional fuel for 200% change in A/D value. A single integer >value of X ms will give you an adjustable ramp rate. This is a >simple feed forward system Hmmm. I'll see if that technique will work for my system. > >The harder part is to arrange a proportional decay vs rate of >change of rpm > >Of course for an engine that has a very poor chance of acc >quickly relative >to say a blipped throttle during a down change this is really of >little import. Yes, a propeller at 2500RPM (6000 Engine RPM) has a fair amount of momentum (or lack of it at low RPM). 8-) But that brings up an interesing point that we discovered today. The MAP sensor vent for the Honda engine is located about 5mm behind the throttle plate. Once the throttle is opened wide my MAP goes to atmospheric. At 5200RPM and wide open throttle the MAP stays at ambient. I see very little change or no change as the RPM increases. Al Grippo in his fuel injection document discusses acceleration enrichnment and derivative of MAP and TPS as the signal to do acceleration enrichment. That's all find and good but when should the enrichment stop? For a car engine in first gear a safety could trip it at max RPM. A car going up the hill in fourth with the pedal to the metal would either a) slow down and stall if the hill is too steep or b) drop to a given speed and go up the hill with perhaps a 12:1 A/F ratio. (I'm guessing) In the case of a propellor load for water/air (assuming no cavitation) the prop is usually sized so that the engine turns just under maximum RPM at WOT (static). The prop can turn faster if the vehicle is moving. Carburated engines just smoothly increase in RPM to their limit given the engine/prop combination. So I think I can assume that if the delta TPS is large or for that matter if the TPS is at maximum value, that the mixture can be increased to WOT at Max RPM. (as a guide). Then, if either MAP or TPS changes in the negative direction, switch over to normal A/F curve. ie: If at WOT and max RPM pulse width was 12.5ms then run injectors at 12.5ms until TPS or MAP changes. At that point switch over to the normal closed loop control algo. and the engine shouldn't miss a beat but mixture should even out and fuel economy will return to expected value. (fuel economy on aircraft is _really_ important). My SAAB Turbo has a switch at 70% TPS that tells the engine computer to put the boots to it. I would assume that a smaller change in TPS will just increase the mixture based on a number of engine parameters with a corresponding slow increase in acceleration. That I already have since I can slowly reach 5200RPM (loaded) with the gradual opening of the throttle; it just doesn't have a rich enough mixture when the throttle is opened wide. Suggestions, comments? > >On the matter of duty cycle it's more to do with lousy linearity >of an injector >at either end of the scale 0-2 ms is considers to be unusable due >to lack of repeatability. With 0.5 - 1.1 ms just to open this >gives rise to variations cycle to cycle of more than 8 %. Makes >it hard to pass US pollution laws. > >At the other end of the scale the rate of collapse of the >magnetic field and the fuel pressure together with pintle bounce >mean that 90 % duty cycle could in fact mean that the injector >never closes. That's what I've read too. Also too long an on period causes heating with a subsequent possibility of a stuck pintle. > >F1 engine at 16,000 rpm has 3.75 ms per rev losing 0.5 to open >and 0.65 to close would give a max. of 2.6 ms. Thus one injection >per 2 revs. >And you were worried about timing the injection to coincide with >valve train events. sigh... I worry way too much. > >Be wary of any O2 sensor voltage vs A/F ratio inferences. If you >don't correct for temp there is a drift of 1.5 A/F over 400 deg >c. And that's for the >expensive BROAD BAND device. A single wire sensor can't be >trusted >at all. For any peace of mind use a 4 Gas analyser and EGT. Yes. I've found that it seems to work well under steady engine loads but doesn't respond well as the engine load is changing. Doesn't matter much. Loop opens up for accel, and decel and engine warmup and then mixture defaults to pure table values. This works well enough and just on the rich side. Today we ran the Hovercraft Fan (Giant Computer Fan really), up to 5380RPM and ran it for a few minutes. Smooth and mixture sat nicely at slightly rich. Be nice to have EGT for this part. Best with carburator has been 5200RPM. Man is it loud. > >Be sure to refer to the properties of steel/wire/bailing in the >BLUE BOOK >to aid with exhaust mounting redesign Do I look in the index under SWB or steel/wire/bailing? ;-) > >For the key to all things in auto tech The Bosch Automotive >Handbook > >SAE order no is BOSCH4 (4th Edition) It's blue !! ISBN >1-56091-918-3 > I'll order one tomorrow. Sounds good. >DISCLAIMER .......I am a hopeless addict of the SAE book store >and would buy everything if I could. SAE book Store? Try any book store for me. We don't have paintings on our wall, we have bookshelves. Regards, John Dammeyer From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 6 23:12:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA14532 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:12:53 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc2.on.home.com (ha1.rdc2.on.home.com [24.9.0.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14529 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:12:52 -0400 Received: from cr929909a ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc2.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with SMTP id <19990807031246.KJHJ12792.mail.rdc2.on.home.com@cr929909a> for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 20:12:46 -0700 Message-ID: <002401bee082$bb3ed4e0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: References: <199908061900.PAA08859@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #453 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:12:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Some where in the box with the TPI stuff is a harness adapter that is > suppose to convert the TBI injector harness to an eight injector harness for > the TPI. > > But the big question. Does anyone know of a chip maker that makes a chip > that will allow my TBI computer run a TPI system? > > If you have the right injectors the tbi computer for the SBC400 should run a tpi system effectively. You are still not sequential, so as long as your injectors each flow 1/4 of what each of the two tbi injectors flow, you are pretty well home free. From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 05:44:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17876 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 05:44:25 -0400 Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17873 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 05:44:24 -0400 Received: from [62.172.219.164] (helo=alansmit) by neodymium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11D31W-0002Pc-00 for DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:44:19 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01bee0b9$cc5a63c0$a4dbac3e@alansmit> From: "Alan Smith" To: "DIY-EFI" Subject: Motronic Checksums Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:46:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE0C2.2A207500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE0C2.2A207500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know whinch Motronic versions use checksums and which do not = ? I saw a thread which suggested that M1.3 used multiple checksums. Does = anyone know if this is true ? I am mainly interested in M1.5. Can anyone identify the Harris chip or = the Injector drivers in this ECU ? Alan Smith ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE0C2.2A207500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know whinch Motronic = versions use=20 checksums and which do not ?
 
I saw a thread which suggested that M1.3 used = multiple=20 checksums. Does anyone know if this is true ?
 
I am mainly interested in M1.5. Can anyone identify = the Harris=20 chip or the Injector drivers in this ECU ?
 
Alan Smith
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE0C2.2A207500-- From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 07:30:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA18559 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:30:16 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18556 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:30:15 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 07:30:49 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.14] by grolen.com id 3ba90.wrk; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:29:18 EDT Message-ID: <37AC18C6.A7DA0383@grolen.com> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 07:30:14 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DRAC and Tranny computers. References: <199908070900.FAA17371@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:40:18 -0400 > From: "Peter D. Hipson" > Subject: DRAC and Tranny computers. > > At 05:00 8/6/99 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Look up input ratio on chart to find proper jumper settings. > > > > Chart, what chart? You have a chart? I'd really, really like to see a copy > of it (fax, scan, whatever). > My apologies. I thought I sent ya a copy. It's on the ftp site now. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ look for dracnfo.zip Shannen From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 09:19:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:19:27 -0400 Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19462 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:19:26 -0400 From: Chipsbyal@aol.com Received: from Chipsbyal@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jUQOa05159 (4567) for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:18:35 EDT Subject: 4L60-E Aftermarket controller To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hope this helps. I found this company in Transmission Digest magazine. They have a product called ePlace Retrofit. Check out there Web page www.autotransinc.com or call 1.888.453.3767. There are quite a few other useful products on their page. From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 10:06:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19909 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:06:15 -0400 Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19906 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:06:14 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12922 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:06:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-124-073.boi.primenet.com(206.132.124.73), claiming to be "686x2" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd012917; Sat Aug 7 07:06:06 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990806230015.00aafbd0@pop.primenet.com> X-Sender: davida@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:01:49 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "David C. Allen" Subject: TPI into a 86 4x4 Suburban PART 2 Long Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu First I would like to thank everyone for the information they provided on the change to TPI fuel injection for our 1986 Chevy Suburban 4x4. I have purchased a 1990 suburban fuel tank, sending unit and some of the fuel lines. I understand that I must change the fuel pump, to a higher pressure pump, like one from a Camaro with TPI. So my first question is there a good place on the web to purchase the fuel pump, the local chevy dealer wants about $100 for a new AC Delco pump and new input filter. Second is there a better pump to use?? Third question, I would like to install the tank and lines as the first phase of the conversion, but I want to run the stock mechanical engine driven pump. Do you guys think there would be a problem sucking the fuel through the un-powered in-tank pump. Fourth Question: Chevy uses a o-ring, Saginaw flare to connect the high pressure fuel lines, and I was wondering if anyone knows who or where one can get steel tubing flared. Power steering hoses use this type of flare. | | _| |_ [_ _] Saginaw flare |__| O-ring side I am going to use 89 Corvette 350 engine fuel lines, because the suburban chassis fuel lines are on the passenger side. Chevy Corvette part # 10052171 and 10052172. GM just discontinued the 10052172 part so I was going to bend the steel tubing and wanted it to look stock so I need to flare the ends. Anyone know where to locate used corvette parts, like fuel lines. Fifth Question Passenger side fuel lines presents a problem with the TPI fuel rail, because most TPI fuel rails are for F body cars and the TPI fuel lines enter from the Drivers side. So I need to find a corvette or "Accel" right side TPI fuel rail because the fuel lines enter from the passenger side.. Any suggestions on where to find a fuel rail. Again if this is not the proper forum please let me know Thanks David From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 13:29:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21572 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:29:23 -0400 Received: from nextdim.com (nt1.nextdim.com [206.107.158.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA21567 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:29:22 -0400 Received: from default [206.107.158.96] by nextdim.com (SMTPD32-4.06) id AA878C701C8; Sat, 07 Aug 1999 10:19:03 PST Message-ID: <000d01bee0f7$fa8337c0$609e6bce@default> From: "Marvin Johnson" To: Subject: New list member, TBI question. Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:10:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2110.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I recently purchased the computer harness etc for an 88 Astro van 4.3 with the intent of putting it on my Jeep 258. I understand the process of retro fitting the TBI. However, I have come into possession of the EFI manifold and injectors for a 4.0 jeep motor, but I don't have the computer or associated parts. Is it possible to drive the six injectors with the TBI computer? I understand I would have to fire the injectors in two groups. How would I wire this, injectors in series, parallel, or is it more complex than this? Any help is appreciated. Marvin Johnson Spokane Washington From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 14:03:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21931 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:03:57 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21928 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:03:56 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-15.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.79]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14141 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:03:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:03:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199908071803.NAA14141@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Message from CSH, HQ X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, hope ya enjoyed the holidays, the dwarfs have been recalled to duty so, here we go, again thanks Gar, for the up date. Pardon my tardiness, but only email so far, working on archives next. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 16:05:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23664 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 16:05:38 -0400 Received: from cyberlynk.com (cyberlynk.com [207.104.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23660 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 16:05:37 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cyberlynk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17972 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:18:34 -0700 Received: from UNKNOWN(207.104.52.59), claiming to be "ppp459mer.cyberlynk.com" via SMTP by cyberlynk.com, id smtpda17968; Sat Aug 7 13:18:26 1999 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Message from CSH, HQ Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 13:09:57 -0700 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <37ad9289.7816211@mail.cyberlynk.com> References: <199908071900.PAA22695@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199908071900.PAA22695@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA23661 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:03:54 -0500 nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) wrote: >Well, hope ya enjoyed the holidays, the dwarfs have been recalled to duty so, >here we go, >again thanks Gar, for the up date. Pardon my tardiness, but only email so >far, working on archives next. Twern't no fun atoll, look wha happened; you leave on 'vacation' (sic), and immediately the list gets ingested and 'digested'. Welcome back, O Conical One. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 17:57:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24438 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:57:34 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24435 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:57:32 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-29.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.93]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03500 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 16:57:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 16:57:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199908072157.QAA03500@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #455 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Several of the new Hot ROd mags have had ads for varous ones. Bruce >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:18:35 EDT >From: Chipsbyal@aol.com >Subject: 4L60-E Aftermarket controller > >Hope this helps. I found this company in Transmission Digest magazine. They >have a product called ePlace Retrofit. Check out there Web page >www.autotransinc.com >or call 1.888.453.3767. There are quite a few other useful products on their >page. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:01:49 -0600 >From: "David C. Allen" >Subject: TPI into a 86 4x4 Suburban PART 2 Long > >Fourth Question: >Chevy uses a o-ring, Saginaw flare to connect the high pressure fuel lines, >and I was wondering if anyone knows who or where one can get steel tubing >flared. >Power steering hoses use this type of flare. Just use Earls'/Russell's stuff in a long run not that much more, and after you study the stock routing you'll see it's shortcomings. > >Again if this is not the proper forum please let me know > >Thanks > >David > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:10:21 -0700 >From: "Marvin Johnson" >Subject: New list member, TBI question. > >Hi, > I recently purchased the computer harness etc for an 88 Astro van 4.3 >with the intent of putting it on my Jeep 258. I understand the process of >retro fitting the TBI. However, I have come into possession of the EFI >manifold and injectors for a 4.0 jeep motor, but I don't have the computer >or associated parts. Is it possible to drive the six injectors with the TBI >computer? I understand I would have to fire the injectors in two groups. How >would I wire this, injectors in series, parallel, or is it more complex than >this? For a first attenpt make up yor mind which system to use, hybredding can get to be a real pain. I'd recomment doing the tbi, and then maybe think of the port type. Hope that was a 1227747 ecm, since that is hacked. Bruce > Any help is appreciated. > > > >Marvin Johnson > > > >Spokane Washington > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:03:54 -0500 >From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) >Subject: Message from CSH, HQ > >Well, hope ya enjoyed the holidays, the dwarfs have been recalled to duty so, >here we go, >again thanks Gar, for the up date. Pardon my tardiness, but only email so >far, working on archives next. >Cheers >Bruce > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #455 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 7 19:59:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25695 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:59:19 -0400 Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25692 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:59:18 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jZFEa02400 (3928) for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 8 09:58:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA32464 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:58:15 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32461 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:58:14 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-5.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.69]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27381 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:58:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:58:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199908081358.IAA27381@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: ALDL Connectors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search Bruce Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT >From: Mikepoore@aol.com >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > >Mike Poore > From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 8 12:37:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:37:49 -0400 Received: from mail.interwrx.com (mail.interwrx.com [209.210.172.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01712 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:37:47 -0400 Received: by mail.interwrx.com from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Sun, 08 Aug 1999 09:37:35 -0700 Received: from cobra001 [209.210.169.67] by mail.interwrx.com [209.210.172.10] (SLmail 3.2.3113) with SMTP id 991CF2254AAA11D393D108003E26D8D1 for plus 5 more; Sun, 08 Aug 1999 09:37:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bee1bd$61691de0$913dfea9@cobra001> From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" To: "DIY_EFI Mailing List" , "EEC Mailing List" , , <50racing@chariott.com>, <50natics@lists.best.com> Cc: "Wallace A. Gustafson" Subject: Help -- Need Ford Mass Air Flow Meter Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:50:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE0E4.3C286C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-SLUIDL: 87AB66FA-4C5C11D3-93D10800-3E26D8D1 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE0E4.3C286C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have a spare "Stock 5.0" or "70mm Cobra" Mass Air Flow = Sensor? Need to obtain one with minimal costs involved. Please reply off list. Thank You, Wallace "Cobra" Gustafson Sorry about the cross list postings. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE0E4.3C286C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone have a spare "Stock 5.0" or = "70mm=20 Cobra" Mass Air Flow Sensor?
 
Need to obtain one with minimal costs=20 involved.
 
Please reply off list.
 
Thank You,
 
Wallace "Cobra" Gustafson
 
Sorry about the cross list = postings.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE0E4.3C286C40-- From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 8 13:38:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02260 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:38:17 -0400 Received: from pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca (pumpkin.bcit.ca [142.232.189.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02257 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:38:16 -0400 Received: by pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 882567C7.005F98F1 ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:24:10 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: BCITMAIN From: "Peter Fenske" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <882567C7.005F96E2.00@pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:24:03 -0700 Subject: Re: Propane and ecms: Halp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Howday All I was wondering if anyone is familiar with or has any documentation on a GM Integrated Processor Fuel Management system made by Autotronics Control Corp Part # 5920. It is giving me a problem in a commercial Van application. The unit appears to control a propane mixer using closed ?? loop operation..Quite a integrated mixer. Mind you the solenoid doing the controlling looks cheaper than the stock egr sol. It plugs in a 350 tbi using a 8747 C3 ecm. Definitely found out you cannot use the 8747 cal in a 7747. Boy does SES lite blink. Now the problem. The Autotronics unit plugs into the TPS and Map sensor. The original ecm connectors plug into the autronics unit I would presume the signals are processed and then sent to the ecm.. Big SES lite is on. Scan shows the TPS and Map signal are NOT going to the ecm. No timing, TCC ect.. So I was gonna use an extra map and plug the stock ecm into that. Not sure bout TPS.. Wonder if the signal output can be run in parallel.. At least the ecm would be happy. Thank you for any help anyone can give :peter From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 8 14:41:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03255 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 14:41:23 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03252 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 14:41:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199908081841.OAA03252@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.126]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA175 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 04:40:09 +1000 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 04:40:47 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: MAP sensor vent References: <199908070900.FAA17371@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, John wrote; > MAP sensor vent for the Honda engine is located about 5 mm behind the > throttle plate. Once the throttle is opened wide my MAP goes to > atmospheric. Sounds like you found a convenient place to stick a vacuum hose but given the shading of the port at part throttle very unlikely to be a "true" reflection of load. Try moving the hose to the plenum. All throttle excursions need to be treated with respect. More than X translation in an increasing load direction should cause the ecu to default from closed loop to open. At this point the fueling should be 95% correct as it was established by steady state testing and calibrating. It seems that your system may be "hanging on" to the closed loop algorithm a little too long. Instead of a base operating condition of closed loop try setting the base fueling to the max power table and then apply time/throttle deg/rate of change of rpm conditions before electing closed loop. Just as you worried about the TECHONOGICAL miracle of valve timing vs injection timing you are trying too hard to keep closed loop operation as the basis of engine fueling. Plain old dumb mapping is very efficient. 8 bit rpm X 8 bit load = 65,000 carby jets By this I'm refering to a 4 point map with interpolation using an 8 bit A/D converter. There must be a value for every load / rpm possible not just WOT. The accel enrichment is used to mask the lean out caused by system lag (your code plays a part here) If you can successfully calculate a new open loop injection value every rpm then accel enrichment is used for less than 0.5 of a second, any longer and it's just more smoke. re bailing wire see page 194 "Stainless-steel spring wire DIN no. 17 224 Alloying constituents in % by weight <0.12 C; 17 Cr; 7.5 Ni; E=185,000 G=73,000 For 1mm diam N/mm2 min. = 2000 Z=reduction of area at fracture 40 % Permissable bending stress =1400 N/mm Permissable lift stress cycles endured =380 x 10 to the 7th etc etc etc add 40% for shot peening (see page 286/287) I kid you not ! Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 8 16:41:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04625 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:41:48 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04622 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:41:47 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.41] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11DZl9-0006dMC for ; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002c01bee1df$25cad900$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: 64K MAP vs TPS table. Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:46:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Phil wrote > >John wrote; > >> MAP sensor vent for the Honda engine is located about 5 mm >behind the >> throttle plate. Once the throttle is opened wide my MAP goes >to >> atmospheric. > >Sounds like you found a convenient place to stick a vacuum hose >but given the shading of the port at part throttle very unlikely >to be >a "true" reflection of load. Try moving the hose to the plenum. I'm really not trying to be all that clever. I leave that to the Honda Engineers some of whom have a bit of Formula 1 experience. ;-) I'm using the stock Honda MAP sensor located on the stock throttle body on the stock intake manifold. I cannot use the stock ECU because the distributor no longer exists at the end of the CAMShaft. Also the ambient pressure sensor is located under the steering column in the autos and isn't always available so instead my ECU has its own ambient air pressure sensor. I probably didn't phrase my question well enough here. Why would Honda put the MAP sensor just behind the throttle plate? > >All throttle excursions need to be treated with respect. >More than X translation in an increasing load direction should >cause the >ecu to default from closed loop to open. This I do. >At this point the >fueling should be 95% correct as it was established by steady >state testing and calibrating. Yes it is except that we haven't been able to set up and hold, say, 2300RPM at all throttle positions to establish proper mixture so I have to extrapolate certain 'calibrated' values. > >It seems that your system may be "hanging on" to the closed loop >algorithm a little too long. Instead of a base operating >condition of closed loop try setting the base fueling to the max >power table and then apply time/throttle deg/rate of change of >rpm conditions before electing closed >loop. I thought that was what I actually suggested as a means to handle acceleration. Sorry. Sometimes I don't clearly say what I mean. > >Just as you worried about the TECHONOGICAL miracle of valve >timing >vs injection timing you are trying too hard to keep closed loop >operation >as the basis of engine fueling. Plain old dumb mapping is very >efficient. Are you making fun of me now? > >8 bit rpm X 8 bit load = 65,000 carby jets > >By this I'm refering to a 4 point map with interpolation using an >8 bit A/D converter. > >There must be a value for every load / rpm possible not just WOT. > >The accel enrichment is used to mask the lean out caused by >system lag >(your code plays a part here) If you can successfully calculate a >new open loop injection value every rpm then accel enrichment is >used for less than 0.5 of a second, any longer and it's just more >smoke. For a race car calculating a new injector value PW every stroke may be a requirement but is that really needed for marine or aircraft applications? Opening the throttle quickly will certainly require more fuel because there is less restriction to the airflow so obviously more air is drawn into the cylinder requiring more fuel to maintain combustion/power ratio but, because the rate of RPM increase is somewhat limited by the load, is a pure table entry for every combination really needed? At the moment, I calculate the Pulse Width (PW) every time I get new A/D values from the sensors. While the calculation for a new PW is taking place I use the previous PW if the need should arise. I am using an 8bit processor so I don't have room for a 64K table so there would be a compromise at some point anyway. But I see what you mean. If I could look up PW for every possible MAP and TPS to achieve 14.7:1 then I can either just change a constant to request 12:1 (or whatever is desired) or I'd need a different table for 14:1 and yet another for 13.5:1 etc. > >re bailing wire see page 194 > >"Stainless-steel spring wire DIN no. 17 224 > >I kid you not ! ROFL. Thanks for you input. John From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 9 10:58:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12827 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:58:31 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12823 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:58:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199908091458.KAA12823@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.224]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA181 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:56:35 +1000 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:57:50 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Why would Honda ? References: <199908090900.FAA09640@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, > Why would Honda put the MAP sensor just behind the throttle plate? Good question. I guess from the tone of what you wrote that you suspected that this could be an issue. I agree with you it probably is. They could of course have a table of correction factors for air temp vs non linearity vs volume. Next issue is why are they using an ambient sensor ? Doesn't the engine know what air pressure it is subject to ? To help with the lack of load points you can interpolate with a calculator and save your precious clock ticks for real work. If zero vacuum at 5,800 or so needs 12.5 ms per intake have a look at the advertised torque curve and overlay it on your fuel map. Absolutely no desire to make fun Sorry. Only bad manners on my behalf. > For a race car calculating a new injector value PW every stroke may be a > requirement but is that really needed for marine or aircraft > applications? Yes. and on second thoughts Yes. If the calculations are done per cycle then the sudden throttle and/or load change will encounter maximum of 2 bad combustions. Now that probably sounds excessively picky but if your engine goes from 250 hp to 125 hp in 1 revolution and then back again the stress cycles on the crank are enormous. Even bailing wire has a cyclic strain limit. Question ? Who blows up all those F1 engines. 1. CNC machines that can't tell a thou from a foot 2. ECU (read software) that can't keep up with the engine ? 3. Other Try creating a 4 byte map. MAX. Vacuum 1000 rpm Max Load 1000 rpm Max vacuum 6000 rpm Max Load 6000 rpm if you interpolate b/w these 4 points and each on it's own is correct then you will be on average spot on. (This doesn't include camshaft timing alterations) this would require the 6 point map. By 65,000 points I didn't mean memory locations I meant possible calculated values from rpm 8 bit X vacuum load 8 bit. thus 255 x 255 = possible outcomes. You will at some stage have to get those 4 measurements as they are the basis for all further corrections. Full load 6000 rpm is easy just pull the stick all the way and the prop will do the rest. Full load 1000 rpm has more air per cycle than 6000 rpm so give it 10% more Light load 1000 needs the rubber band to be removed. Light load 6000 needs about 10% less. say 14.0 12.5 2.2 2.0 This of course brings us to the point of when or if your system is crossing over from injecting once per revolution at light load to once every second at full load into focus. The differential b/w light and full load is on average 350% i.e. 2.0 - 6.5 ms. You need to investigate this further. There ! that's 4 bytes of eeprom all used up. You have only to get rpm from the timer ticks vs a single A/D Vacuum Load and you are ready to go. Your last air, water and accel corrections are waiting from the last stored calc. apply these and squirt. Given a 1 mHz internal clock and 6000 rpm you have 10 ms or 10,000 clock cycles to get this done. say 2000 instructions executed at worst. P.S. if this to and fro is boring the pants of others please chime in and tell me firmly. TTFN Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 9 19:33:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20305 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:33:55 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20302 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:33:54 -0400 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA29677 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:33:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908092333.SAA29677@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Received: from user-2iveb2f.dialup.mindspring.com(165.247.44.79) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029635; Mon Aug 9 18:33:09 1999 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:07:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 In-reply-to: <199908081900.PAA03381@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have 16 pin connectors, and looking for new sources. Alex http://www.obd-2.com and a welcome back to CSH-HQ > Subject: ALDL Connectors > > Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search > Bruce > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT > >From: Mikepoore@aol.com > >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > > > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am > >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to > >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > > > >Mike Poore > > From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 9 19:35:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20328 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:35:09 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20325 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:35:08 -0400 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA11107 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:34:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908092334.SAA11107@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Received: from user-2iveb2f.dialup.mindspring.com(165.247.44.79) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010913; Mon Aug 9 18:33:56 1999 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:08:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 In-reply-to: <199908081900.PAA03381@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have 16 pin connectors, and looking for new sources. Alex http://www.obd-2.com and a welcome back to CSH-HQ > Subject: ALDL Connectors > > Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search > Bruce > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT > >From: Mikepoore@aol.com > >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > > > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am > >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to > >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > > > >Mike Poore > > From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 00:58:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24080 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:58:58 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA24075 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:58:52 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.177] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11E3zo-0006dIC for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007101bee2ed$c5184060$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #459 Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:03:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Phil wrote > >Hi All, > John wrote >> Why would Honda put the MAP sensor just behind the throttle >plate? > >Good question. I guess from the tone of what you wrote that you >suspected that this could be an issue. > Well, I thought it a bit odd. After all, the Fuel Pressure regulator is attached to the middle of the plenum. >I agree with you it probably is. They could of course have a >table of correction factors for air temp vs non linearity vs >volume. True, and perhaps at the high end it really doesn't matter. >Next issue is why are they using an ambient sensor ? Doesn't the >engine >know what air pressure it is subject to ? Guess you've never owned a SAAB 99 with mechanical fuel injection. ;-) Whenever we took it on holidays from home at 2200' ASL down to Sea Level we always found the engine ran poorly. Got it back up to home altitude and that wasn't a problem. The 900 series etc. use MAF so they don't care; they already know how much air is being sucked into the engine. Other vehicles with MAP use some sort of ambient air pressure sensor. I even disected an after market fuel injecton box and sure enough, they had two Motorola Pressure transducers inside: one for ambient and one for MAP. The 'Grippo' formula uses MAP/(MAP at WOT) to scale the PW. Additionally there is a second part of the formula that uses MAP at Wide Open Throttle (I had assumed Ambient Air Pressure due to the location of the HONDA MAP sensor) minus Fuel Vapour pressure divided y the temperature. This number gets smaller as either ambient pressure goes down or temperature go up thereby reducing the PulseWidth; less air, less fuel required. Kind of like reaching 8000' ASL and adjusting the Lycoming's mixture on on your Cessna till EGO readings are correct again. Does anyone know what the Fuel Vapour pressure for Gasoline is or where to look it up on the WEB? I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that it's the pressure generated by the fuel as it evaporates. The number used in Grippo's document suggests 3.1Kpa but that's at 85F. What would it be at -40F. Interesting too, if the MAP is taken somewhere further inside the plenum then the WOT value will probably be lower than Ambient Air Pressure. If you used one sensor, then you could save Ambient Air pressure the moment the ECU powered up just before cranking. Of course if the vehicle runs for an hour straight up a mountain then the fuel ration will just get richer and richer. So the trick is to reduce the PW as the air density decreases. Al Grippo's equation reads: Air Density = (0.0391568(Barometric Pressure - 31)) ------------------------------------------------- (Manifold Temp/10) + 459.7 Barometric Pressure, Manifold Temp and the 31 (3.1 Kpa) are all scaled by 10. Bruce Bowling does the same thing but in "Hg. In either case, this provides the number required to shorten the PW as altitude or plenum temperature increase. Next we get to drag our test frame with GCF (remember... Giant Computer Fan) up a small hill from Sea Level to 2500'. Hopefully I should see the O2 sensor keep the same values but I'd like to test at 10,000 without leaving the ground. > >> For a race car calculating a new injector value PW every stroke >may be a >> requirement but is that really needed for marine or aircraft >> applications? > >Yes. and on second thoughts Yes. > >If the calculations are done per cycle then the sudden throttle >and/or >load change will encounter maximum of 2 bad combustions. > >Now that probably sounds excessively picky but if your engine >goes from >250 hp to 125 hp in 1 revolution and then back again the stress >cycles on the crank are enormous. Even bailing wire has a cyclic >strain limit. Good point. We'll call that the BWCSL. ;-) I understand what your saying though. I'll check through my code and see how many lean combustions I might have. Obviously MAP will lag TPS so a change in TPS is probably a better indication that it's time to enrich the mixture. > >Question ? Who blows up all those F1 engines. I'd like to try!!!! > >Try creating a 4 byte map. > >MAX. Vacuum 1000 rpm Max Load 1000 rpm >Max vacuum 6000 rpm Max Load 6000 rpm > >if you interpolate b/w these 4 points and each on it's own is >correct >then you will be on average spot on. (This doesn't include >camshaft timing alterations) this would require the 6 point map. > >By 65,000 points I didn't mean memory locations I meant possible >calculated values from rpm 8 bit X vacuum load 8 bit. > >thus 255 x 255 = possible outcomes. OK. I see what you mean. > >You will at some stage have to get those 4 measurements as they >are the basis for all further corrections. > >Full load 6000 rpm is easy just pull the stick all the way and >the prop will do the rest. > >Full load 1000 rpm has more air per cycle than 6000 rpm so give >it 10% more We can bog the engine down with the dyno to get that. > >Light load 1000 needs the rubber band to be removed. Hmmmmm.. I think you forgot the page number of the Bosch Blue Book for RB (rubber band) analysis. ;-) >There ! that's 4 bytes of eeprom all used up. You make it appear really simple. I guess in many ways it is, after all a simple SU carburator can do it. > >You have only to get rpm from the timer ticks vs a single A/D >Vacuum Load and you are ready to go. Your last air, water and >accel corrections are waiting from the last stored calc. apply >these and squirt. > >Given a 1 mHz internal clock and 6000 rpm you have 10 ms or >10,000 clock cycles to get this done. say 2000 instructions >executed >at worst. Yes, but I want to be able to play space invaders too. 8-). > > > P.S. if this to and fro is boring the pants of others please >chime in and tell me firmly. Shussh everyone. This beats the pants off the standard questions of "I have a xxx ECU for my sports car and I want to modify the tables ... what do I do?" regards, John From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 06:32:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA27290 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:32:09 -0400 Received: from lmsfw1.emea.ibm.com (d06lmsgate-2.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27287 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:32:02 -0400 From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by lmsfw1.emea.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA152456 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:23:20 +0100 Received: from d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06mta07_cs0 [9.180.35.5]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/NCO v2.04) with SMTP id LAA150106 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:31:26 +0100 Received: by d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 802567C9.0039CBE4 ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:31:17 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMGB To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <802567C9.0039CA2E.00@d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:31:10 +0100 Subject: PC based engine management system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I'm new to the digest and have joined because I've set myself a long term project to design and build a road legal drag car (ie nothing too stupid or expensive) for which the engine is fully managed from a laptop computer. I'm doing this mainly as a challenge for fun and will share all my results / code etc when I have anything worthwhile. I've never attempted anything like this before and any cars which I have built previously have always used carbs rather than EFI but I will put the effort in to make sure I succeed. My knowledge of the workings of common engine management systems is very limited and this is the first area which I need to learn about. Does anyone have a good document or website which describes basics / details of the engine management system including the fuel maps? I'm also looking for a description of the what is sensed from the engine (ie airflow / MAP / oil / water temperature / crank position etc) and what effect this has on the fuel delivery volume / timing and the ignition timing? Also I need to figure out or buy an input / output device for the laptop (PCMCIA / Parallel / RS232 ?) which will allow me to sample all the inputs and output to fuel injectors etc. Any advice on this would be most appreciated! What I'm looking to achieve initially is to have an engine (very probably a Rover V8 from a 1984 Rovertec Vitesse) for which the fuel delivery is managed via a hardware interface to a laptop which runs custom written software. I would then like to add in the ignition timing then a supercharger or Janspeed twin turbo setup (or both). Eventually my goal would be to include servo throttle control and other stuff to basically allow the car to drag a 1/4 mile based on an optimised program without any driver intervention except for steering! I know this is a huge never-ending project but it'll keep me entertained for a long while and it'll be worth it in the long term. I know I'll destroy numerous engine parts. I'm lucky that I have a lot of technical support and enthusiasm from friends. I'm aware that the first year will be spent in the garage but this is no different to most of my projects! In addition to standard tools, the equipment I have (or have access to) includes the following; Emmisions meter Numerous volt / current etc meters Digital oscilloscope EEPROM programmer My background - I'm a degree qualified Electronic / Mechanical engineer with a great interest in cars. I work in IBM as a senior WW test engineer for Thinkpad (Laptops) manufacturing which means that I can program in C / Turbo Pascal and Rexx and have a pretty good understanding of computers. Working in IBM also gives me access to the skills required for ciircuit design etc which I'm a bit rusty on myself. I will be working closely with a friend who has a lot of experience with building strange cars and engines but he also has little knowledge of EFI systems. If anyone can offer me any initial (and hopefully ongoing) help and support then I would be most appreciative. I am a complete novice in this field just now but I'm a fast learner if I get the help I need. Best Regards James MacKenzie From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 09:07:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29086 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:07:31 -0400 Received: from mailrelay3.sni.net (mailrelay3.sni.net [199.117.160.142]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29083 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:07:30 -0400 Received: from [204.132.128.1] (p4.Steamboat.dialup.csn.net [204.132.128.4]) by mailrelay3.sni.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA28149 for mail_from ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:07:28 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@lynx.sni.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:06:35 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@sni.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #460 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Does anyone know what the Fuel Vapour pressure for Gasoline is or where >to look it up on the WEB? I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that it's the >pressure generated by the fuel as it evaporates. The number used in >Grippo's document suggests 3.1Kpa but that's at 85F. What would it be >at -40F. The vapor pressure of gasoline is VERY much a matter of the blend. And most refiners vary it from summer to winter, etc. To give you an order of magnitude idea, the vapor pressure of iso-octoane is 1.72 psia at 100 degrees F. I do not have a listing of its critical point temp--pressure. There is a relationship from physical chemistry that will let you calculate the vapor pressure at any temp for about any single compound given a couple of bits of info about it. Regards, Greg From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 09:35:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29595 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:35:09 -0400 Received: from etcsh01.etcusa.com ([146.145.136.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29590; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:35:05 -0400 Received: by etcsh01.etcusa.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <30W9L5KR>; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:34:31 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Jensen, Mike" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: "Booth, Barry" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #460 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:34:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone ever built a home dynamometer? If so does anyone have any plans or could someone explain how they did it? Perhaps there is a site on the web that I have yet to find. If anyone could point me in the right direction it would be most appreciated! Michael H. Jensen Mechanical Designer Environmental Tectonics Corp. 125 Jamesway Southampton Pa. 18966 Phone (215) 355-9100 Ext. 276 Email mjensen@etcusa.com -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 5:00 AM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #460 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, August 10 1999 Volume 04 : Number 460 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #459 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:07:29 +0000 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 I have 16 pin connectors, and looking for new sources. Alex http://www.obd-2.com and a welcome back to CSH-HQ > Subject: ALDL Connectors > > Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search > Bruce > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT > >From: Mikepoore@aol.com > >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > > > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am > >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to > >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > > > >Mike Poore > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:08:17 +0000 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #457 I have 16 pin connectors, and looking for new sources. Alex http://www.obd-2.com and a welcome back to CSH-HQ > Subject: ALDL Connectors > > Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search > Bruce > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT > >From: Mikepoore@aol.com > >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > > > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am > >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to > >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > > > >Mike Poore > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:03:31 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #459 Phil wrote > >Hi All, > John wrote >> Why would Honda put the MAP sensor just behind the throttle >plate? > >Good question. I guess from the tone of what you wrote that you >suspected that this could be an issue. > Well, I thought it a bit odd. After all, the Fuel Pressure regulator is attached to the middle of the plenum. >I agree with you it probably is. They could of course have a >table of correction factors for air temp vs non linearity vs >volume. True, and perhaps at the high end it really doesn't matter. >Next issue is why are they using an ambient sensor ? Doesn't the >engine >know what air pressure it is subject to ? Guess you've never owned a SAAB 99 with mechanical fuel injection. ;-) Whenever we took it on holidays from home at 2200' ASL down to Sea Level we always found the engine ran poorly. Got it back up to home altitude and that wasn't a problem. The 900 series etc. use MAF so they don't care; they already know how much air is being sucked into the engine. Other vehicles with MAP use some sort of ambient air pressure sensor. I even disected an after market fuel injecton box and sure enough, they had two Motorola Pressure transducers inside: one for ambient and one for MAP. The 'Grippo' formula uses MAP/(MAP at WOT) to scale the PW. Additionally there is a second part of the formula that uses MAP at Wide Open Throttle (I had assumed Ambient Air Pressure due to the location of the HONDA MAP sensor) minus Fuel Vapour pressure divided y the temperature. This number gets smaller as either ambient pressure goes down or temperature go up thereby reducing the PulseWidth; less air, less fuel required. Kind of like reaching 8000' ASL and adjusting the Lycoming's mixture on on your Cessna till EGO readings are correct again. Does anyone know what the Fuel Vapour pressure for Gasoline is or where to look it up on the WEB? I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that it's the pressure generated by the fuel as it evaporates. The number used in Grippo's document suggests 3.1Kpa but that's at 85F. What would it be at -40F. Interesting too, if the MAP is taken somewhere further inside the plenum then the WOT value will probably be lower than Ambient Air Pressure. If you used one sensor, then you could save Ambient Air pressure the moment the ECU powered up just before cranking. Of course if the vehicle runs for an hour straight up a mountain then the fuel ration will just get richer and richer. So the trick is to reduce the PW as the air density decreases. Al Grippo's equation reads: Air Density = (0.0391568(Barometric Pressure - 31)) ------------------------------------------------- (Manifold Temp/10) + 459.7 Barometric Pressure, Manifold Temp and the 31 (3.1 Kpa) are all scaled by 10. Bruce Bowling does the same thing but in "Hg. In either case, this provides the number required to shorten the PW as altitude or plenum temperature increase. Next we get to drag our test frame with GCF (remember... Giant Computer Fan) up a small hill from Sea Level to 2500'. Hopefully I should see the O2 sensor keep the same values but I'd like to test at 10,000 without leaving the ground. > >> For a race car calculating a new injector value PW every stroke >may be a >> requirement but is that really needed for marine or aircraft >> applications? > >Yes. and on second thoughts Yes. > >If the calculations are done per cycle then the sudden throttle >and/or >load change will encounter maximum of 2 bad combustions. > >Now that probably sounds excessively picky but if your engine >goes from >250 hp to 125 hp in 1 revolution and then back again the stress >cycles on the crank are enormous. Even bailing wire has a cyclic >strain limit. Good point. We'll call that the BWCSL. ;-) I understand what your saying though. I'll check through my code and see how many lean combustions I might have. Obviously MAP will lag TPS so a change in TPS is probably a better indication that it's time to enrich the mixture. > >Question ? Who blows up all those F1 engines. I'd like to try!!!! > >Try creating a 4 byte map. > >MAX. Vacuum 1000 rpm Max Load 1000 rpm >Max vacuum 6000 rpm Max Load 6000 rpm > >if you interpolate b/w these 4 points and each on it's own is >correct >then you will be on average spot on. (This doesn't include >camshaft timing alterations) this would require the 6 point map. > >By 65,000 points I didn't mean memory locations I meant possible >calculated values from rpm 8 bit X vacuum load 8 bit. > >thus 255 x 255 = possible outcomes. OK. I see what you mean. > >You will at some stage have to get those 4 measurements as they >are the basis for all further corrections. > >Full load 6000 rpm is easy just pull the stick all the way and >the prop will do the rest. > >Full load 1000 rpm has more air per cycle than 6000 rpm so give >it 10% more We can bog the engine down with the dyno to get that. > >Light load 1000 needs the rubber band to be removed. Hmmmmm.. I think you forgot the page number of the Bosch Blue Book for RB (rubber band) analysis. ;-) >There ! that's 4 bytes of eeprom all used up. You make it appear really simple. I guess in many ways it is, after all a simple SU carburator can do it. > >You have only to get rpm from the timer ticks vs a single A/D >Vacuum Load and you are ready to go. Your last air, water and >accel corrections are waiting from the last stored calc. apply >these and squirt. > >Given a 1 mHz internal clock and 6000 rpm you have 10 ms or >10,000 clock cycles to get this done. say 2000 instructions >executed >at worst. Yes, but I want to be able to play space invaders too. 8-). > > > P.S. if this to and fro is boring the pants of others please >chime in and tell me firmly. Shussh everyone. This beats the pants off the standard questions of "I have a xxx ECU for my sports car and I want to modify the tables ... what do I do?" regards, John ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #460 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 14:29:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01210 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:29:22 -0400 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01207 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:29:21 -0400 Received: from node141 ([10.0.0.141]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04878 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:29:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:29:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Turbo header design To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.01) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Greg: Is there any simular design rules for intakes ?? Previously, you (Greg Hermann) wrote: > > > FOR THIS PARTICULAR V-8> (IT HAS A 90 degree crank) > > Firing order > > 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 > > With this firing order, take every other cylinder in the firing order if > you want 180 degree (crank rotation) spaced pulses into a pair of 4 into 1 > collectors: > > 1, 4, 6, & 7 go into one collector (two end cylinders from one bank, and > the two center cylinders from the other bank. > > 8, 3, 5, & 2 go into the other collector. (the two end cylinders on the > other side, and the two middles from the first side. > > If you want PROPERLY done tri-wyes, go 1/2 way around the firing order, so > that the pulses in the pairs of tubes which combine at the first wye are > spaced evenly, 360 (crank) degrees apart: > > 1 & 6; 8 &5; 4 & 7; 3 & 2. As you can see, each pair takes one tube from > each bank of the motor. > > Then, at the second wye, pair 1-6 with 4-7 and pair 8-5 with 3-2 so as to > get evenly spaced pulses at the second wye in each header. > > If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how > fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.) start > out with a regular set of 4 into one headers (of the smallest tube size you > can find), cut them off a bit before the collectors, and do the snaking > back and forth under the bell housing/tranny to get the correct first wye > pairings. The second branches want to be the same length as the first ones, > but there are no crossovers if you plan ahead. After the four second > branches combine into two (tertiary) pipes, you want a length of pipe of > length equal to all the first and second branches. At the end of that pipe, > you need a gap (no diameter change of offset in the pipe) in the pipe about > 3/4 inch long. Put an empty plenum chamber around that gap. The volume of > the plenum needs to be maybe double the internal volume of the last > (single) length of pipe feeding it. Just run a full size tail pipe and low > restriction muffler behind the plenum (Not much vehicle length left after > this, anyway!) > The headers will effectively see the plenum as an open ended (to > atmosphere) pipe. DO NOT omit the plenum, it is worth quite a bit of HP and > response! > For street stuff, usually, primary tubes 1 trade size SMALLER than the size > which can be swedged square to fit into a flange and match the port > properly work out to be the correct size. (If a 1-7/8" tube can be squared > at one end and fitted into a flange so that the inside of that tube matches > the port shape, then run the primary tubes with 1-3/4 " tubing.) You want > the internal AREA of your primary tubes to be about equal to the > cros-sectional AREA of the exhaust port. The above is what usually works > out right. (Especially if the engine designer did his homework!) The extra > work involved in getting down to the smaller tube size is why most off the > shelf headers use too big a tube size! Figure the length of the primary > tubes so that each of their internal volumes is about 140% of the > displacement of an individual cylinder. (For instance, for a 350 cid V-8, > using 1-3/4" tubes (which are about 1-5/8" inside diameter in 16 gauge > tube, this would mean you want (at least) 24 inch long primary tubes.) (And > if you are using lighter than 16 gauge tubing, don't bother!) > If the primaries are 1-3/4", then 2" is usually about right for the > secondaries, and 2-1/4" for the next ones. (A quarter inch increase in tube > size at each successive wye is usually about right. > > 1-3/4" diameter primary tube size was only an example. It is prolly BIG for > a street 350, 1-5/8" or 1-1/2" is more likely to be right (but with more > tube length so as to get to the same internal tube volume!) > > If you build a set of tri-wyes this way, they will sound and run like > nothing else! The throttle response will be astounding! But it is a ROYAL > pain in the #@$% to do it! > > All my experience says that the biggest gain from headers is from giving as > much of the exhaust gas as possible somewhere to go freely during the > "blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke--before the piston starts back up > significantly. Yes, it's nice to have a low pressure pulse in the exhaust > port at overlap, and that pulse helps to scavenge clearance gasses if you > have it there at the right time, but the longer you can keep the blowdown > stage flow sonic, the less work the engine will have to waste pumping > exhaust gas out of its cylinders, and the more sonic energy there will be > available for creation of a scavenging pulse! > > Regards, Greg > > -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 14:42:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01534 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:42:28 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01531 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:42:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199908101842.OAA01531@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.120]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA175 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 04:41:10 +1000 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 04:41:52 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 2 pessure sensors ? References: <199908100900.FAA26576@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, John wrote; > Other vehicles with MAP use some sort of ambient air pressure sensor. I > even dissected an after market fuel injection box and sure enough, they > had two Motorola Pressure transducers inside: one for ambient and one > for MAP. Please don't even mention that device. There has to be a good reason why an absolute sensor with integral nitrogen reference is made. Only one I can think of is so you can map engine vs absolute pressure Then if you fly or dive the fuel is corrected as the manifold pressure is always correct. if the full throttle vacuum is 30 kpa you could use the measurement to check your altimeter or if it read boost you would be holidaying by the dead sea. If you reference all calculations to absolute values (kelvin kPa etc.) you can correct with confidence. How does the second pressure sensor (if they are both differential ) know any better than the first. Lack of first principals gives rise to many "interesting products" but you wouldn't want to drive one. You will find that the only pressure the ECU needs to concern itself with is the plenum pressure. This is proportionally linked to air mass that is being CURRENTLY ingested. If you correct for absolute air temp, absolute rpm and absolute pressure the job's done. You could get creative and correct for fuel temp as was done 50 years ago by Kugelfischer et al. This first principle was "lost" with the advent of bad quality electronic fuel injection (read bosch D Jetronic) and no body does it anymore except for a small australian firm of no repute whatsoever and even then only for Liquid LPG Injection where it matters. more than the 5 % that is does for petrol. Remember all current pollution test are conducted after 24 hour heat soak at 24 deg C . means they can save money by not fitting a fuel temp sensor (the environment is not a customer of GM or Ford and thus doesn't count) Page 188 of you guessed it gives; Properties of Liquids/Gasoline(IC-Engine)) density = 0.72 - 0.75 g/cm3 melting point = -50 to -30 deg C boiling point = 25 - 210 deg C (most be some heavy fractions in there) thermal conductivity = 0.13 W/(m-K) specific heat = 2.02 kJ/kg-K volume expansion coefficient = 1.0 x 10-3/K the last is a thought provoker isn't it ? As the volume of fuel is a function of pressure diff across the injector which should be a constant as the regulator is referenced to the plenum then the only variable is ms of injection time. If you know the amount of air in mass and add an appropriate ms value of fuel from a dyno load generated map then the vapor pressure is piffle (is it ok to use strong words on this list ?) > The number used in Grippo's document suggests 3.1 Kpa but that's at >85F. What would it be at -40F. And when would it make a difference ? What does the engine think of 50 kpa of vacuum at sea level and 50 kpa of vacuum at 2000 ft/ASL and are the fueling requirements not met by the original map. The engine has no mechanism for differentiating between a partial throttle sub atmospheric plenum at sea level and a WOT at 10,000 feet which also results in a sub atmospheric plenum. The only thing that matters is the values in the table. They must be derived as absolutely as everything else. And dyno work is very absolute your in obfuscation Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 16:56:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03802 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:09 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03799 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:08 -0400 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA21974 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:55:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908102055.PAA21974@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Received: from user-2iveabl.dialup.mindspring.com(165.247.41.117) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021199; Tue Aug 10 15:52:18 1999 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:26:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:: ALDL Connectors X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have 16 pin connectors, and looking for new sources. > Alex > http://www.obd-2.com > and a welcome back to CSH-HQ > > > Subject: ALDL Connectors > > > > Been posted in the DIY archives. Both 12+16. Try OBD for the 16 in search > > Bruce > > > > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:58:45 EDT > > >From: Mikepoore@aol.com > > >Subject: Looking for ALDL connectors > > > > > >Does anyone know where I can find 12 pin and 16 pin GM ALDL connectors? I am > > >looking for the male ends. I've got my interface working, but I would like to > > >connect and disconnect it a little easier than pin by pin. > > > > > >Mike Poore > > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 18:51:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05121 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:51:26 -0400 Received: from cronus.oanet.com (root@cronus.oanet.com [204.209.13.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05118 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:51:24 -0400 Received: from keviny ([207.153.9.90]) by cronus.oanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17147 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:51:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <004501bee383$972bbec0$50646464@keviny> From: "Kevin Yachimec" To: References: <199908101900.PAA01850@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: Turbo header design Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:01 -0600 Organization: Cybertech Automation Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I missed the part of this post that stated the intended use of the vehicle in question, so the following information may not apply. If the header/manifold is for a street turbo application there is no measurable gain by using a tuned the length header unless you using a pulse type turbine and housing designed for receiving exhaust pulses. Most turbos you find on production vehicles have the best results if the manifold smoothes out all the pulses into a constant flow with heat lost being minimized. I have a promotional paper from Allied Signal outlining manifold design for their turbos. It covers both their new pulse type turbos (like the ones you see on all those 10 second Honda's with equal length headers) and their standard turbos, if I can find it I'll post it 'incoming'. >Greg Hermann wrote: > > > FOR THIS PARTICULAR V-8> (IT HAS A 90 degree crank) > > Firing order > > 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 > > With this firing order, take every other cylinder in the firing order if > you want 180 degree (crank rotation) spaced pulses into a pair of 4 into 1 > collectors: > > 1, 4, 6, & 7 go into one collector (two end cylinders from one bank, and > the two center cylinders from the other bank. > > 8, 3, 5, & 2 go into the other collector. (the two end cylinders on the > other side, and the two middles from the first side. > > If you want PROPERLY done tri-wyes, go 1/2 way around the firing order, so > that the pulses in the pairs of tubes which combine at the first wye are > spaced evenly, 360 (crank) degrees apart: > > 1 & 6; 8 &5; 4 & 7; 3 & 2. As you can see, each pair takes one tube from > each bank of the motor. > > Then, at the second wye, pair 1-6 with 4-7 and pair 8-5 with 3-2 so as to > get evenly spaced pulses at the second wye in each header. > > If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how > fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.) start > out with a regular set of 4 into one headers (of the smallest tube size you > can find), cut them off a bit before the collectors, and do the snaking > back and forth under the bell housing/tranny to get the correct first wye > pairings. The second branches want to be the same length as the first ones, > but there are no crossovers if you plan ahead. After the four second > branches combine into two (tertiary) pipes, you want a length of pipe of > length equal to all the first and second branches. At the end of that pipe, > you need a gap (no diameter change of offset in the pipe) in the pipe about > 3/4 inch long. Put an empty plenum chamber around that gap. The volume of > the plenum needs to be maybe double the internal volume of the last > (single) length of pipe feeding it. Just run a full size tail pipe and low > restriction muffler behind the plenum (Not much vehicle length left after > this, anyway!) > The headers will effectively see the plenum as an open ended (to > atmosphere) pipe. DO NOT omit the plenum, it is worth quite a bit of HP and > response! > For street stuff, usually, primary tubes 1 trade size SMALLER than the size > which can be swedged square to fit into a flange and match the port > properly work out to be the correct size. (If a 1-7/8" tube can be squared > at one end and fitted into a flange so that the inside of that tube matches > the port shape, then run the primary tubes with 1-3/4 " tubing.) You want > the internal AREA of your primary tubes to be about equal to the > cros-sectional AREA of the exhaust port. The above is what usually works > out right. (Especially if the engine designer did his homework!) The extra > work involved in getting down to the smaller tube size is why most off the > shelf headers use too big a tube size! Figure the length of the primary > tubes so that each of their internal volumes is about 140% of the > displacement of an individual cylinder. (For instance, for a 350 cid V-8, > using 1-3/4" tubes (which are about 1-5/8" inside diameter in 16 gauge > tube, this would mean you want (at least) 24 inch long primary tubes.) (And > if you are using lighter than 16 gauge tubing, don't bother!) > If the primaries are 1-3/4", then 2" is usually about right for the > secondaries, and 2-1/4" for the next ones. (A quarter inch increase in tube > size at each successive wye is usually about right. > > 1-3/4" diameter primary tube size was only an example. It is prolly BIG for > a street 350, 1-5/8" or 1-1/2" is more likely to be right (but with more > tube length so as to get to the same internal tube volume!) > > If you build a set of tri-wyes this way, they will sound and run like > nothing else! The throttle response will be astounding! But it is a ROYAL > pain in the #@$% to do it! > > All my experience says that the biggest gain from headers is from giving as > much of the exhaust gas as possible somewhere to go freely during the > "blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke--before the piston starts back up > significantly. Yes, it's nice to have a low pressure pulse in the exhaust > port at overlap, and that pulse helps to scavenge clearance gasses if you > have it there at the right time, but the longer you can keep the blowdown > stage flow sonic, the less work the engine will have to waste pumping > exhaust gas out of its cylinders, and the more sonic energy there will be > available for creation of a scavenging pulse! > > Regards, Greg > Kevin Yachimec Cybertech Automation Inc. (780)483-6222 Ext. 118 keviny@cybertech.ca From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 22:24:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA06958 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:24:20 -0400 Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06955 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:24:18 -0400 From: ARoss10661@aol.com Received: from ARoss10661@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jVBIa13743 (3874) for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:23:38 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #461 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 8/10/99 2:29:46 PM Central Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com Subject: PC based engine management system Hi, I'm new to the digest and have joined because I've set myself a long term project to design and build a road legal drag car (ie nothing too stupid or expensive) for which the engine is fully managed from a laptop computer. I'm doing this mainly as a challenge for fun and will share all my results / code etc when I have anything worthwhile. I've never attempted anything like this before and any cars which I have built previously have always used carbs rather than EFI but I will put the effort in to make sure I succeed. My knowledge of the workings of common engine management systems is very limited and this is the first area which I need to learn about. Does anyone have a good document or website which describes basics / details of the engine management system including the fuel maps? I'm also looking for a description of the what is sensed from the engine (ie airflow / MAP / oil / water temperature / crank position etc) and what effect this has on the fuel delivery volume / timing and the ignition timing? Also I need to figure out or buy an input / output device for the laptop (PCMCIA / Parallel / RS232 ?) which will allow me to sample all the inputs and output to fuel injectors etc. Any advice on this would be most appreciated! What I'm looking to achieve initially is to have an engine (very probably a Rover V8 from a 1984 Rovertec Vitesse) for which the fuel delivery is managed via a hardware interface to a laptop which runs custom written software. I would then like to add in the ignition timing then a supercharger or Janspeed twin turbo setup (or both). Eventually my goal would be to include servo throttle control and other stuff to basically allow the car to drag a 1/4 mile based on an optimised program without any driver intervention except for steering! I know this is a huge never-ending project but it'll keep me entertained for a long while and it'll be worth it in the long term. I know I'll destroy numerous engine parts. I'm lucky that I have a lot of technical support and enthusiasm from friends. I'm aware that the first year will be spent in the garage but this is no different to most of my projects! In addition to standard tools, the equipment I have (or have access to) includes the following; Emmisions meter Numerous volt / current etc meters Digital oscilloscope EEPROM programmer My background - I'm a degree qualified Electronic / Mechanical engineer with a great interest in cars. I work in IBM as a senior WW test engineer for Thinkpad (Laptops) manufacturing which means that I can program in C / Turbo Pascal and Rexx and have a pretty good understanding of computers. Working in IBM also gives me access to the skills required for ciircuit design etc which I'm a bit rusty on myself. I will be working closely with a friend who has a lot of experience with building strange cars and engines but he also has little knowledge of EFI systems. If anyone can offer me any initial (and hopefully ongoing) help and support then I would be most appreciative. I am a complete novice in this field just now but I'm a fast learner if I get the help I need. Best Regards James MacKenzie ------------------------------ >> James, This sounds like a fantastic project let me know if I can be of help (similar interests lesser credentials) Al From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 10 22:58:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA07261 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:58:05 -0400 Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07258 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:58:03 -0400 Received: from nicholas ([210.55.152.90]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990811030050.OTYG2529197.mta1-rme@nicholas> for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:00:50 +1200 Message-ID: <001201bee3a5$5b742580$0501a8c0@nicholas> From: "Nicholas Parker" To: Subject: Injector firing points Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:58:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE409.EFF80500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE409.EFF80500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I've sort of jumped the gun here. I have already written the guts of an open loop sequential fuel = injection and ignition unit in assembler for an 80c552 (8051 variant), = uses map , rpm , coolant temp so far. I've only tested it with a scope = on a bench (along with pulse inputs and a MAP sensor..) Now I have an Infineon (Siemens) developement kit for the 167 mpu (16 = bit, all features and instructions you can possibly imagine + a big = errata sheet ahem....) and I'm starting to code an ecu in C because, = shit its easy to do floating point maths! and plus the 167 is so fast = you can write in C and not be hugely clever (Microsofts motto ?) like = when you're using an 8051 based slug..not that you need it. My = application is sequention injection in a 4 cyl, my question is; When do = injectors fire ? What I think I know: The injector in question should fire after the appropriate inlet = valve(s) are open, and subtract from this position, the time required = for the injector to open etc..problem is I have heard that injectors = stay on from 6- 8 ms. How can this be ? At 7500rpm, you've got only 4ms / 180degs of crank = rotation ? 8ms sounds too much, even when I imagine the momentum of the intake air stopping 'itself' it = coming out the intake valve when the piston is beginning to compress the = mixture...? Anyone know a very ugly approx for injector pulse width, based on = cylinder size, inj flow rate, and manifold pressure...If I wasn't lazy = I'd make and rig up a 'logger' to my car.... Also do most factory cars (say 4 cyl for this question) have a = distribtor sensor that gives a pulse for each cyclinder when its say 50 = degs before tdc , so that only a delay 0- 50 degs (for example) is = required to generate all possible igntion firing points ? (This is what = I implemented in my 80c552 system). I have got such a distributor off of a friend, but unfortunately, no info as to its angle = relative to cam/crank. Thanks, Nick Parker. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE409.EFF80500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I've sort of jumped the gun here.
I have already written the guts of an open loop = sequential=20 fuel injection  and ignition unit in assembler for an 80c552 = (8051=20 variant), uses map , rpm , coolant temp so = far.  I've only tested it with a scope on a bench
(along with pulse inputs and a MAP = sensor..)
 
Now I have an Infineon (Siemens) developement kit = for the 167=20 mpu (16 bit, all features and instructions you can possibly imagine + a = big=20 errata sheet ahem....) and I'm starting to code an ecu in C=20 because, shit its easy to do floating point maths! and plus the 167 is = so fast=20 you can write in C and not be hugely clever (Microsofts motto ?) like = when=20 you're using an 8051 based slug..not that you need it.  = My application is sequention injection in a 4=20 cyl, my question is;  When do = injectors fire=20 ?  What I think I know:
 
The  injector in question = should fire after the=20 appropriate inlet valve(s) are open, and subtract from this position, = the time=20 required for the injector to open etc..problem is = I have=20 heard that injectors stay on from 6- 8 ms.
How can this be ?  At 7500rpm, you've got only = 4ms /=20 180degs of crank rotation ? 8ms sounds too much,
even when I imagine the momentum of the intake air = stopping=20 'itself' it coming out the intake valve when the piston is beginning to = compress=20 the mixture...?
 
Anyone know a very ugly approx for injector pulse = width, based=20 on cylinder size, inj flow rate, and manifold pressure...If I wasn't = lazy I'd=20 make and rig up a 'logger' to my car....
 
Also do most factory cars (say 4 cyl for this = question) have a=20 distribtor sensor that gives a pulse for each cyclinder when its say 50 = degs=20 before tdc , so that only a delay 0- 50 degs (for example) is = required to=20 generate all possible igntion firing points ?  (This is what I = implemented=20 in my 80c552 system).    I have got such a
distributor off of a friend, but unfortunately, no = info as to=20 its angle relative to cam/crank.
 
 
Thanks,
Nick Parker.
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE409.EFF80500-- From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 11 00:38:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA08412 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:38:19 -0400 Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08408 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:38:18 -0400 From: bjanesi@juno.com Received: (from bjanesi@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EHQC4HX9; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:37:45 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:00:29 -0400 Subject: Bosch AMM (MAF) adjustment screw Message-ID: <19990811.003024.3422.0.bjanesi@juno.com> References: <199908101900.PAA01850@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-12,15-21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am investigating the replacment of my stock VAF meter (Merkur XR4Ti) with a Bosch AMM, as used in many (Saab, Volvo, MB) LH-Jetronic equipped cars. And yes, I do know about the Pro-M MAF replacement (that would be too easy). As you may know, there is an adjustment screw on the Air Mass Meter, used for fine tuning of the idle mixture. My question... What specifically is being adjusted here? I always assumed it was the base voltage output from the hot-wire. However, I've recently been told (by someone who seemed to know what they were talking about), that this is an entirely separate circuit which adjusts the injector pulse width at idle (only). Anyone have some definitive data on this? If it is a separate circuit, that makes this a more challenging project since this function would not be supported in the Ford EEC-IV found in the Merkur. Specifically, I have an AMM from a Volvo 230FT motor (2.3L Turbo); Bosch p/n 0 280 212 007. If anyone happens to have the schematic for this, that would be real helpful. Thanks, Brad Anesi '88 Merkur XR4Ti 5-speed '91 Alfa Project 164Q 5-speed ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 11 20:40:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23056 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:40:21 -0400 Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23052 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:40:19 -0400 Received: from cen16176 (ppp060.av.centuryinter.net [209.142.163.91]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28115 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:40:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990811110706.006a91f8@mail.ot.centuryinter.net> X-Sender: cen16176@mail.ot.centuryinter.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:07:06 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Clarence Wood Subject: Re: Home Dyno In-Reply-To: <199908101900.PAA01850@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have just received an update notice from "Mike Glover" for his 'FREE' StreetDyno software. I have not used it (yet) but some of the people on this list have used it and with good results. You can get to the StreetDyno web page by going to: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/5837/StreetDyno.html **ORIGINAL MESSAGE** Has anyone ever built a home dynamometer? If so does anyone have any plans or could someone explain how they did it? Perhaps there is a site on the web that I have yet to find. If anyone could point me in the right direction it would be most appreciated! Michael H. Jensen Mechanical Designer Environmental Tectonics Corp. 125 Jamesway Southampton Pa. 18966 Phone (215) 355-9100 Ext. 276 Email mjensen@etcusa.com 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood@centuryinter.net Savannah, TN. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 11 21:12:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23317 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:12:18 -0400 Received: from mailrelay4.sni.net (mailrelay4.sni.net [199.117.160.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23314 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:12:17 -0400 Received: from [204.132.128.1] (p1.Steamboat.dialup.csn.net [204.132.128.1]) by mailrelay4.sni.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19730 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:12:11 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@lynx.sni.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:11:25 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@sni.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #462 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:01 -0600 >From: "Kevin Yachimec" >Subject: Re: Turbo header design > >I missed the part of this post that stated the intended use of the vehicle >in question, so the following information may not apply. >If the header/manifold is for a street turbo application there is no >measurable gain by using a tuned the length header unless you using a pulse >type turbine and housing designed for receiving exhaust pulses. Most turbos >you find on production vehicles have the best results if the manifold >smoothes out all the pulses into a constant flow with heat lost being >minimized. I have a promotional paper from Allied Signal outlining manifold >design for their turbos. It covers both their new pulse type turbos (like >the ones you see on all those 10 second Honda's with equal length headers) >and their standard turbos, if I can find it I'll post it 'incoming'. > >>Greg Hermann wrote: >> >> >> FOR THIS PARTICULAR V-8> (IT HAS A 90 degree crank) >> > Firing order >> > 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 >> Kevin-- I don't remember how far back in the archives you must have dredged to get that post, but it applies to about any kind of engine service, if one cares to spend the money, do the work and can fit the headers into the vehicle. It applies to turbo headers just as well as to NA headers. A "pulse" type turbine is a crutch to get better turbine performance at lower speeds and pressure ratios as a trade off against top-end performance. A header of the type I described will let the ENGINE perform the best. A turbine will perform most efficiently if it has a steady flow rate through it. The way to get from a to b is to empty the header collector into what is known as a pressure recovery accumulator--basically a device which evens out the gas pulses before feeding the gas into the turbine. This evening out is essential to turbine efficiency because the turbine funtions most efficiently with an inlet velocity in the Mach 0.75 neighborhood. Too much pulsing with that sort of a flow rate, and the nozzle begins to get choked (reach a flow velocity of Mach 1) at the peak of the pulses, with the attendant backpressure and efficiency problems. A variable vane turbine is a much better solution to the (poor efficiency at below design flow rate) problem than a pulsed type turbine, because it gives far better low flow response and efficiency than a pulsed flow unit ever dreamed of having without compromising the top end flow situation. Garrett has been working on VATN turbos for some time now, and apparently does not have them quite right yet. I suspect that their published opinions on the subject may change as their product development cycle progresses. You might check out Obert's info, brief though it is, on pulse turbos , pressure recovery accumulators, etc. Very interesting stuff. As to the headers--almost exactly what works best on an NA engine will also work best on a turbo motor. Only small dimensional changes, so as to accommodate the higher flow losses which happen with a denser fluid (bigger tubes) are necessary. Otherwise, the intake/engine/header system operation with a turbocharger is really no different from operating the same engine at the bottom of a very deep mine with no turbo. A log type exhaust manifold on a turbo motor will degrade performance, compared to headers, just as much as it would on the same engine at the bottom of a mine. The performance degradation is roughly the same, percentagewise, as it would be on an NA engine at sea level. Regards, Greg From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 11 23:06:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24807 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:06:49 -0400 Received: from mail.info2000.net (IDENT:root@mail.info2000.net [204.144.228.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24804 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:06:48 -0400 From: cwagner@info2000.net Received: from default (20717487176.ria.net [207.174.87.176]) by mail.info2000.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA25218 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:57:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199908120257.UAA25218@mail.info2000.net> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:02:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: wiring diagrams X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I appreciate all the help I got when looking for some wiring diagrams, thanks. Know, so I don't have to bother you as much as I have been, where could I get a book with nothing but wiring diagrams for nothing but fuel injection. I have part of one of these books but half of it is missing. The book is put out by a company named Hygrade Division of Standard Motor Products Inc. and made by Mitchell International. I would like to get an updated and complete book like the one I have. From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 14:34:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02793 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:34:31 -0400 Received: from centris.ains.net.au (CENTRIS.ains.net.au [202.61.243.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02790 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:34:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199908121834.OAA02790@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ains.net.au ([202.61.243.185]) by centris.ains.net.au (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA71 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 04:33:05 +1000 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 04:33:50 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Designing Engine Management References: <199908110900.FAA10411@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, James MacKenzie wrote: > engine is fully managed from a laptop computer < Seems like everyone is designing an engine management system today ! It would be great if some of you would get together and pick a common platform. Makes it much easier to help a group of you and the open source nature should help you attract others. On the other hand sometime it does sound like "I have learnt to write so now I'm going to write a book about lion taming." It's probably best to spend your first year or so investigating engine design issues then you will be in a position to asses current technology and methodology of engine management. The care and feeding of an engine is a technology neutral issue. You can't design a carby without having a reasonable grasp of the physics of IC engines and the chemistry of combustion. Same goes for writing code for an embedded engine management application. The most common pitfalls are not coming to terms with writing "real time" applications and how very "real time" the engine management game is. There is a quite a difference between the operating systems used for real time applications and "some time applications" Have a look at a simple Motorola 68hc11 and see if you can duplicate it's functions in the operating system you are hoping to use. If you can good. If not then the laptop is out. I can't emphasize strongly enough the need to come to terms with the IC engine (the client) before you choose a solution (platform/software) Motorola offer vast amounts of knowledge in the interface/circuit design area that would be a good start. then... > Does anyone have a good document or website which describes basics / > details of the engine management system including the fuel maps? On the Engine Management side things are a lot more difficult. Those who know how it all works will seldom tell you as it's often proprietary information. Like asking M$ for their source code. Most people work it out from friends and mail lists and backwards engineering a couple of factory units. The problem is understanding the reasoning behind the decisions. Why do Delco/Delphi have 309 sets of tables in their ECU. What is bloatware and what is really required ? What is the second pressure sensor in the Honda for ? Let us know what you find out ? Can a 300mHz 32 bit wintel run an engine ? Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 16:43:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04380 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:47 -0400 Received: from benatar.snurgle.org (IDENT:fluffy@c266492-a.lakwod1.co.home.com [24.1.8.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04377 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (fluffy@localhost) by benatar.snurgle.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07163 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:20 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #464 In-Reply-To: <199908121900.PAA02952@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I hate digest mode. Somebody please fix it. :} > The most common pitfalls are not coming to terms with writing "real > time" applications and how very "real time" the engine management > game is. Something that is extremely lacking - not just in engine management but in many technology applications - is people actually quantifying what they want the stuff to do. Let's say your engine turns 10,000 RPM (because it's a nice round number and is pretty much an upper bound for anything amateurs are likely to do). Let's say it's a 4 cylinder engine or a rotary; a V8 has twice as much to do but turns about half as fast, so it all works out. Let's also assume you're using TBI injection. Now, if my brain is working (which it often is not): 10,000 RPM is equal to 166 RPS. Since you have one pulse for every other revolution for each cylinder (assume 4) you'll have 4 * 166 / 2 = 332 pulses per second. Now, that doesn't seem all that bad, but consider all the stuff that has to be done for that pulse and how precise it has to be. It's easy enough for a computer to do 332 things per second but for it to do one thing precisely every 3 msec is a little different. First you must sense the current RPM. You can't do this in the same thread that does anything else because by the time you get the RPM sensed you'll have missed a pulse. If you have 6 teeth with one missing on your sensor widget (that's a technical term) you'll be getting 50,000 pulses a second, which means you need resolution of 100,000 pulses a second (so you can find the missed one) which means you need additional hardware to help with this, *already* your laptop is by itself inadequate. Assuming you have a unit which sends you a 16-bit value (adequate for any RPM) 10,000 times a second. You need to read your serial port at a bit rate of 19,200 bps just to make 9600 RPM max. 38,400 if you want to be safe. The good news is that if you miss one of these it's not the end of the world. Then you need to send the injection pulse. First you need 3msec timer accuracy. The hardware clock can do that, but if your system is too heavily loaded, you'll lose out. This is where Windows really falls over; it's simply not that precise. Most of the time Windows can't even play mp3's and run Netscape at the same time without cutting out even though the total cpu load is less than 25%. The trouble is, you can't block (i.e. run in a tight loop to ensure precise timing) while you do this because about half the time, some other cylinder will need a spark while you're timing the injection pulse. So you have to pass it off to the OS and go tend to the other guy's spark. If you have a V8 instead of a 4-cylinder you'll have twice as many sparks and longer injection pulses so you'll have even more trouble with that. Somewhere in there you have to find time to check the TPS, correlate it with the RPM and boost level (if applicable) and find out how much fuel you're going to squirt for the next pulse. If you are running closed loop you'll have to check the value of the O2 sensor... oh, bad news. A/D converters are slow - so you can't do that read instantaneously. But you need to know this ahead of time because otherwise you don't want to go lean accidentally. Any of this stuff is easy enough to do, but getting all the scheduling right is the hard part. > On the Engine Management side things are a lot more difficult. You can get a good handle on things just by connecting an A/F meter to see how much fuel is being pushed in at various RPM's. You can then simply capture this data for a good starting point. > Let us know what you find out ? Can a 300mHz 32 bit wintel run an > engine ? No chance. Windows cannot do this. Linux probably can if you are comfortable with programming for real time applications, but you would probably be safest with a genuine real-time OS, which of course is a very specialized skill and probably expensive for the software. You kind of reach a point of diminishing returns with PC hardware. The CPUs today are designed for computationally intensive applications which engine management is certainly not. Your real bottleneck is the I/O, most PC systems are very poor at this and it's the most important part of engine management. From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 22:43:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08790 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:43:55 -0400 Received: from leviathan-tu1.mtco.com (leviathan-tu1.mtco.com [208.155.33.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08787 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:43:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 30719 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 02:45:41 -0000 Received: from tnt4-210.mtco.com (HELO mtco.com) (206.69.130.210) by leviathan-tu1.mtco.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 02:45:41 -0000 Message-ID: <37B386D8.93524DF4@mtco.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:45:44 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, eec@eelink.net Subject: New Project - 514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm starting another Cobra project and need an engine. Does anyone have any EFI experience with the Ford 514 crate motor??? 600hp@6250rpm (w/ dominator). With the 460 crate motor??? How about the 351W strokers??? I would like to buy a clone efi system if someone has already done it. Anyone have a 427 side oiler laying around cheap?? 429 BOSS?? Cammer??? didn't think so!! TIA Tom From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 22:48:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08833 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:48:16 -0400 Received: from leviathan-tu1.mtco.com (leviathan-tu1.mtco.com [208.155.33.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08830 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:48:14 -0400 Received: (qmail 24092 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 02:50:01 -0000 Received: from tnt4-210.mtco.com (HELO mtco.com) (206.69.130.210) by leviathan-tu1.mtco.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 02:50:01 -0000 Message-ID: <37B387DC.F03DC94E@mtco.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:50:04 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 9V power supply Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I need 2 mv @ 9V to drive an LCD in dash. My radioshak book says I can do it with a resistor and diode. Can any EEs out there give me values or part numbers??? TIA Tom From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 22:58:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08929 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:58:55 -0400 Received: from smtp.tetranet.net (mail.tetranet.net [207.246.192.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08926 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:58:54 -0400 Received: from tetranet.net (stl-162.max21.tetranet.net [207.246.192.162]) by smtp.tetranet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29894 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:59:04 -0500 Message-ID: <37B389F7.A4C14D3@tetranet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:59:03 -0500 From: DC Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Signetics N82S2708N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone have the pinout/specs (anything?) handy for the Signetics N82S2708N. One of our CAE TWA 727 flight simulators at work smoked one of these ROM's and I can't find any info on it anywhere. I can use the chip from it's sister ship next to it, to burn a new one. This is in the motion cabinet electronics. These machines are pretty complicated for sure. It has been down for 5 days. Check out: http://www.flightsafetyboeing.com/ (I don't know what all is on it..) This is electronics, but no EFI content, so please reply privately, if deemed necessary. Thank you all. *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.03@110.45 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:morepoweral@tetranet.net http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 12 23:43:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09263 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:43:45 -0400 Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09260 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:43:43 -0400 Received: from stevemit (pool0165.cvx9-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.176.165]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04431 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004901bee53d$f9b1d6e0$a5b0b2d1@stevemit> From: "Steve" To: References: <199908110900.FAA10411@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #462 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:43:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:01 -0600 > From: "Kevin Yachimec" > Subject: Re: Turbo header design > Big snip > minimized. I have a promotional paper from Allied Signal outlining manifold > design for their turbos. It covers both their new pulse type turbos (like > the ones you see on all those 10 second Honda's with equal length headers) > and their standard turbos, if I can find it I'll post it 'incoming'. > Yes, please post it to the list or an FTP site if it's too big for email. Thanks, Steve From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 07:01:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12642 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:01:24 -0400 Received: from postoffice.tidalwave.com (postoffice.tidalwave.com [208.214.129.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12639 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:01:21 -0400 Received: from mailchute.tidalwave.com (mailchute.tidalwave.com [208.214.129.18]) by postoffice.tidalwave.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B292BB23; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mbs (mailchute.tidalwave.com [208.214.129.18]) by mailchute.tidalwave.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 777DA2BB1B; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00d001bee596$0b1da5a0$4104d3d0@mbs> From: "Michael Selig" To: "Electronic Fuel Injection list" Subject: Fw: [JP] O2 sensor for 350 TBI Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:07:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Maggio To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 10:08 PM Subject: [JP] O2 sensor for 350 TBI "Larry Maggio" writes: Those of you who have the sensor after the y-pipe... are you sure the engine is staying (or getting) into closed loop? The o2 must get to 600 degrees before the computer goes into closed loop operation. Im wondering if it doesnt fall in and out of closed loop during different driving types such as stop and go traffic.... especially during cold weather. Any thoughts or am I high? LarryM ===> JeepTech List Message End <======================================== Subscription changes: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/jeep/jeeplists.htm Sponsored by Off-Road.com's JeepWeb http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/jeep From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 09:11:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13734 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:11:09 -0400 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13731 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:11:08 -0400 Received: from node141 ([10.0.0.141]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10536 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:11:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:11:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #465 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.01) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Previously, you (DIY_EFI Digest) wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Friday, August 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 465 > > > > In this issue: > > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #464 > New Project - 514 > 9V power supply > Signetics N82S2708N > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #462 > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:20 -0400 (EDT) > From: William T Wilson > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #464 > > I hate digest mode. > > Somebody please fix it. :} > > > The most common pitfalls are not coming to terms with writing "real > > time" applications and how very "real time" the engine management > > game is. > > Something that is extremely lacking - not just in engine management but in > many technology applications - is people actually quantifying what they > want the stuff to do. the missing spec stage. You have to specify what you want before you get going > > 10,000 RPM is equal to 166 RPS. Since you have one pulse for every other > revolution for each cylinder (assume 4) you'll have 4 * 166 / 2 = 332 > pulses per second. Now, that doesn't seem all that bad, but consider all > the stuff that has to be done for that pulse and how precise it has to be. > It's easy enough for a computer to do 332 things per second but for it to > do one thing precisely every 3 msec is a little different. The hardware needs to run that fast, Not the program. Al Lipper did a PC based efi, I used that as a starting point for a pc104 (industrial pc) based efi. Using a 386ex 16 with 8M ram it worked. Think and look and Ludis's page ( http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227748sheet1.gif ) and look at u15 you just program the capture channels and read the registers th cpu only sets it up then sets back and reads at will . > > First you must sense the current RPM. You can't do this in the same > thread that does anything else because by the time you get the RPM sensed > you'll have missed a pulse. If you have 6 teeth with one missing on your > sensor widget (that's a technical term) you'll be getting 50,000 pulses a > second, which means you need resolution of 100,000 pulses a second (so you > can find the missed one) which means you need additional hardware to help > with this, *already* your laptop is by itself inadequate. not so if you hook into the 8253/4 timer chip your code only has to set it up. Software and hardware guys tend to try what they know, this is something to do in hardware. > > Assuming you have a unit which sends you a 16-bit value (adequate for any > RPM) 10,000 times a second. You need to read your serial port at a bit > rate of 19,200 bps just to make 9600 RPM max. 38,400 if you want to be > safe. The good news is that if you miss one of these it's not the end of > the world. > > Then you need to send the injection pulse. First you need 3msec timer > accuracy. The hardware clock can do that, but if your system is too > heavily loaded, you'll lose out. This is where Windows really falls over; > it's simply not that precise. Most of the time Windows can't even play > mp3's and run Netscape at the same time without cutting out even though > the total cpu load is less than 25%. again easy in hardware to avoid this overhead, Al Lippers PC based efi is an excellent starting point. He made good h/w vs. s/w choices. SNIP > Somewhere in there you have to find time to check the TPS, correlate it > with the RPM and boost level (if applicable) and find out how much fuel > you're going to squirt for the next pulse. If you are running closed loop > you'll have to check the value of the O2 sensor... oh, bad news. A/D > converters are slow - so you can't do that read instantaneously. But you > need to know this ahead of time because otherwise you don't want to go > lean accidentally. sample the analog signals at the start, then do it after each read > > Any of this stuff is easy enough to do, but getting all the scheduling > right is the hard part. > not if the right decisions are made about whats h/w and whats s/w tasks > > On the Engine Management side things are a lot more difficult. > > You can get a good handle on things just by connecting an A/F meter to see > how much fuel is being pushed in at various RPM's. You can then simply > capture this data for a good starting point. > > > Let us know what you find out ? Can a 300mHz 32 bit wintel run an > > engine ? > > No chance. Windows cannot do this. AGREED windows is a nice TOY ( try reading from an empty floppy drive while doing anything else) > Linux probably can if you are > comfortable with programming for real time applications, but you would > probably be safest with a genuine real-time OS, which of course is a very > specialized skill and probably expensive for the software. There are free rtos's but with dos you can set up a fairly good system for this type of load just don't run any windows stuff, avoid himem.sys ... Or you can go OS less. Compile your program as a .com and patch the bios signature and jump to the front and the post will take and run it before any os starts > > You kind of reach a point of diminishing returns with PC hardware. The > CPUs today are designed for computationally intensive applications which > engine management is certainly not. Your real bottleneck is the I/O, > most PC systems are very poor at this and it's the most important part of > engine management. > I agree to a point, the stock io is poor BUT its easy to extend the io. Think of a pc as the small block chev of computers, easy to add stuff to, lot of off the shelf stuff, not hard to graft home made stuff to. One of QNX's customers does engine management on a turbine engine test bed( like a dyno) , using a PC. -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 11:25:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16055 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:25:49 -0400 Received: from lmsfw1.emea.ibm.com (d06lmsgate-2.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16052 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:25:35 -0400 From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by lmsfw1.emea.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id QAA15302; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:15:48 +0100 Received: from d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06mta07_cs0 [9.180.35.5]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/NCO v2.04) with SMTP id QAA43930; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:23:01 +0100 Received: by d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 802567CC.005480BF ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:22:59 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMGB To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: fluffy@snurgle.org Message-ID: <802567CC.00548005.00@d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:22:51 +0100 Subject: Designing Engine Management Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Phil / William & other readers, Sorry for this long note.... "Seems like everyone is designing an engine management system today ! " ...But are any of them sucessful and if so where's the public domain source? "It would be great if some of you would get together and pick a common platform. Makes it much easier to help a group of you and the open source nature should help you attract others." ...What I will try to do is get the basics of a system developed then I will open source my code (C++) for all to use and develop if interested. This will help me to achieve what I want and also aid others. I'm going to try and base it on a standard analogue and digital sampling / control interface for a PC so that nothing is unique unless it has to be. I'm doing this for a long term interest and hobby and that rush of adrenalin I'll get when an engine actually drives and is managed reasonably well (until the computer crashes!) "It's probably best to spend your first year or so investigating engine design issues then you will be in a position to asses current technology and methodology of engine management." ...I'm not rushing into it head first. I know a bit but I'm looking for a book which describes everything as a starter. "The care and feeding of an engine is a technology neutral issue. You can't design a carby without having a reasonable grasp of the physics of IC engines and the chemistry of combustion." ...With the mechanical engine stuff I should be OK to start with. Initially I'm not designing the engine, simply using something which I know works with the management system it came with. "Same goes for writing code for an embedded engine management application." ...This is where the challenge lies for me. I'd like to design it so that it is capable of being compatible with existing fuel maps. Can the laptop Handle it!!! --------------------------- As regards the stuff about can a Laptop handle it...I dunno yet but I think so. This for me is is the interesting bit because I don't know anyone that's done it before. This is where I need real help as I am trying to figure out exactly what analogue and digital inputs / outputs are needed so I can ensure that what I choose in terms of hardware is more than adequate. I can guarantee that I am not even looking at in 95 / 98 / NT or any varient of that nasty unreliable stuff because the 'Blue screen of death' probably would kill a high reving engine! I will consider OS/2 as I have worked with it for years and it is one of the few true multitasking OS's and is extremely reliable but my heart tells me to go with Linux as it seems to be very flexible and extremely fast and free (and fashionable). (Unless Microsoft want to sponsor anything?) Even with the most powerful operating system running on the most powerful laptop with the fastest interfaces (USB / firewire?) to the DAC / ADC / driver circuits I may still be limited. However I don't think I will be as based on a 10K RPM engine I need the following sensors initially for basic control of fuel injection (using mechanical ignition timing). Please correct me if I've screwed up and am way out but these are my initial calculations; Inputs ------- * Airflow (Analogue - Medium sample rate - 2Hz?) - Corrolates directly to injector pulse width * Oil temperature (Analogue - low sample rate - 30s intervals) - Too hot / mix too lean or undercooling or indirect load sensing? * Water temperature (Analogue - low sample rate - 30s intervals) - Too cold / richen fuel mix (choke) * O2 sensor (Digital or analogue?) - Mixture adjustment * Inlet Manifold pressure sensor (Analogue - Medium sample rate - 2Hz?) - Engine load / adjust injector pulse width * Crank sensor (Digital) - Gives crank position for injector timing and rpm For the crank sensor, worst case is say 10K RPM (From Williams note). Which equates to 166Hz. Up to this point I agree with the analysis. However I think I only need 1 digital pulse per revolution of the crank shaft to determine rpm and hence through knowing the firing order I can time my squirts. This means that I only need to react to 166 pulses per second at worst case. Since I am only getting 1 reading per rotation, Under heavy acceleration / deceleration the timing of the squirts at low RPM would go off as the engine approaches the end of the revolution but to offset this I could use proportional / integral / differential stuff (Yep I studied control theory / stability etc at Uni!) to keep my prediction of the position of the crank accurate (hence the fuel squirt for the last cylinder has a fair chance of being correct!). Outputs ---------- * Output to each fuel injector (Digital) At worst the engine will rev at 10K requiring 8 x 166 = 1328 pulses per second. However since anything above 3.5K RPM results in the injectors struggling to keep up with this rate of pulsing then above this I could start firing injectors in banks, ie fire 2 together up to 5K RPM then fire 4 together up to 7K RPM then above this just leave all 8 open to get as much fuel in the engine as possible? This makes the worst case for injexctor output at 3.5K RPM which would be equal to 3500/60 * 8 = 466Hz. If I need to be able to control at 1 msec intervals then I would need to be able to output at 1KHz. I think I will require clever electronics in order to address 8 injectors individually or in pairs (any ideas for this)? Would I need a system with 8 digital outputs at 1KHz each? If I was to control the ignition timing electronically, it would probably be using a control to advance and retard the timing using a servo based on readings for load / rpm and engine acceleration rather than trying to calculate each pulse directly. If I had to calculate exactly then it would require very accurate position sensing of the crank. Let me know any thought on this? For starters though, it will be a standard distributer setup using vacuum for retard. To summise, I think it is possible to control all the basics for an engine management system using a laptop without reaching any sampling limitations. This means that it is not neccessary to use any external processing capability. Best Regards James MacKenzie From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 12:46:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA17847 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:46:47 -0400 Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17844 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:46:46 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jKNZa05147 (4511) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:46:05 EDT Subject: MasterTune To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I called the makers of Mastertune today and found out that they quit selling the software. I never saw the software, but it sounded like a useful product. Does anyone have a copy they would like to sell? If it worked, it would save me a lot of time. Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 13:20:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18608 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:20:31 -0400 Received: from mercury.mv.net (root@mercury.mv.net [199.125.85.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18602 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:20:22 -0400 Received: from DORA (darkstar.mv.com [199.125.78.23]) by mercury.mv.net (8.8.8/mem-971025) with SMTP id NAA16395 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990813082711.010b9a18@199.125.85.40> X-Sender: darkstar-ma@199.125.85.40 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:27:11 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: 9V power supply In-Reply-To: <199908130900.FAA11711@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Be careful, many LCD meters cannot have a common ground with the voltage being measured. You probably will have to either buy or make an isolator (they are nto that expensive). Otherwise just use a 7809 regulator, with a small by-pass cap on the output. The resistor and diode trick requires a 9V zener diode and a dropping resistor, and is rather inefficient to boot! At 05:00 8/13/99 -0400, you wrote: >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:50:04 -0500 >From: Tom Sharpe >Subject: 9V power supply > >I need 2 mv @ 9V to drive an LCD in dash. My radioshak book says I can do >it with a resistor and diode. Can any EEs out there give me values or part >numbers??? TIA Tom > >------------------------------ Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 14:16:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19211 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:16:23 -0400 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19208 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:16:22 -0400 Received: from node141 ([10.0.0.141]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24924 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:16:23 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Dis and advance To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.01) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All: I was thinking (rare but does happen) what does the signal from the dis module to the computer look like and what the the computer send back as an advance signal. What I'd like to do is make a small advance box that I can put a simple advance curve into and have it control the advance. Thanks -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 15:33:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20609 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:33:39 -0400 Received: from pluto.mis.amat.com (pluto.mis.amat.com [207.82.111.154]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20606 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:33:37 -0400 From: Jason_Leone@amat.com Received: from GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com (gwsmtpscla02.mis.amat.com [152.135.239.117]) by pluto.mis.amat.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA28186 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (778.2 1-4-1999)) id 882567CC.006B7B1D ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:33:58 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMAT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <882567CC.006B44BF.00@GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:30:55 -0700 Subject: FS: TEC II for six cyl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gents, I'm selling my Electromotive TEC II for a six cylinder, so it's a free for all. I only used it for a couple months, and I'll sell it WITH the software. Retail price is $2000 with software, but I'll sell it for $1400 or so. Comes with all the hardware (2 Bar MAP sensor, RS-232 cable, crank wheel, mag pickup, manual, ECU, coils, PAF Blend software). I'm selling it because my power output goals have changed (400hp--->300hp), but will miss the TEC II's power and tuning parameters. This is a steal, and it won't last long... Sorry for the WOB, but I'm not aware of a DIY_EFI classified section... Jason srgnt03@earthlink.net http://www.electromotive-inc.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 19:14:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23388 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:14:25 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA23385 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:14:23 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.39] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11FQUO-0006fWC for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002501bee5e1$fe4a0a20$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: DIY Injection with a PC Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:13:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, Phil has been real helpful to me so I thought I'd pass on some of my experience since I had to make many of the same choices that are itemized below. Let's start with processor. I had a price constraint and a 16 bit processor, both from tools and long term per parts cost was too expensive. In hindsight, I should have used the C167C and bought the compiler since I ended up buying the Tasking 8051 compiler anyway. The extra grief (extra time) caused by the limitations in my processor have more than eaten up the returns a cheaper processor would return. Specifically I have used the 80C592 from Philips. It has a nice T2 set of compare registers that can set and reset or toggle an output compared to the free running T2 timer. CAN bus was a requirement here for remote instrumentation. > >Can the laptop Handle it!!! >- --------------------------- Yes. With a proprietary OS that lets you control what is done with the timer tick. If you can't you will find a periodic delay due to processing on the DOS/WIN side. Timer is high priority so your encoder interrupts would be delayed. I have an electric DC motor and speed control that lets me simulate cranking all the way to 7000RPM. On the scope the signals look perfect. The engine is not so forgiving since the speed is dependent on the control system while the DC motor controller doesn't care what my MAP sensor is doing. I have a program written in Delphi that receives status messages from the igntion and displays instruments graphically on the LCD display. I click on an instrument and I get a dialog box with the injection parameters. I can change them, try them and then store them into EEROM if I like what I see. >Inputs >- ------- > >* Airflow (Analogue - Medium sample rate - 2Hz?) - Corrolates directly to >injector pulse width >* Oil temperature (Analogue - low sample rate - 30s intervals) - Too hot / >mix too lean or undercooling or indirect load sensing? >* Water temperature (Analogue - low sample rate - 30s intervals) - Too cold >/ richen fuel mix (choke) >* O2 sensor (Digital or analogue?) - Mixture adjustment >* Inlet Manifold pressure sensor (Analogue - Medium sample rate - 2Hz?) - >Engine load / adjust injector pulse width >* Crank sensor (Digital) - Gives crank position for injector timing and rpm > You need to sample the MAP sensor far more often than you think. As Phil stated in one of his notes. At the start of every injection cycle, using MAP and RPM to index a table to pull out a PW. >For the crank sensor, worst case is say 10K RPM (From Williams note). Which >equates to 166Hz. Up to this point I agree with the analysis. However I >think I only need 1 digital pulse per revolution of the crank shaft to >determine rpm and hence through knowing the firing order I can time my >squirts. This means that I only need to react to 166 pulses per second at >worst case. Since I am only getting 1 reading per rotation, Under heavy >acceleration / deceleration the timing of the squirts at low RPM would go >off as the engine approaches the end of the revolution but to offset this >I could use proportional / integral / differential stuff (Yep I studied >control theory / stability etc at Uni!) to keep my prediction of the >position of the crank accurate (hence the fuel squirt for the last cylinder >has a fair chance of being correct!). > Not even close. You have to start the engine. The change in engine speed from 0 to cranking and then again from cranking to the first firing is huge. I found when I used a 4 vane system with one unequal sized vane to determine TDC I had trouble reliably detecting TDC during cranking to idle transition. I blamed it on the high acceleration of my DC motor but reality is quite accurate here. Part of the reason was that the T2 timer on my processor is clocked by the 16Mhz/12/8 resulting in a 6uSec tick. The 16 bit T2 counter overflows when engine RPM is less than 225RPM. (My life would have been easier if I had an extra divide by 4 available for the clock.) Because I was interested in knowing absolutely where the engine was I had my disk on the CAM shaft. Now we are talking 225 CAM RPM 550 ENGINE RPM . Four slots and vanes divide this by 8 and keep the timer from overflowing since most events are derived from one of the edges. But, it doesn't help with the initial start which is why I think Phil was so insistant on basing everything on the edges. I found the change in RPM from cranking to Starting to be so dramatic that I would see teh short slot and the following long vane (or visa versa) be exactly or close to exactly the same number of clock ticks in length. This was with the electric Motor. Perhaps a real engine wouldn't have had the problem. One of my other problems is that to determine the engine RPM I need to divide a constant by the number of clock ticks between edge events; this gives me an RPM that can be used as an index. Takes a long time to do a 32 divide operation on a 8051 family so I scaled the # of ticks and used a 16 bit divide. We also tried sensing gear teeth with a Hall Sensor and triggering off a missing tooth. Once again I had problems clearly keeping track of TDC. In hindsight, I would do it differently now. I'd use two sensors: one that told me TDC #1 (CAMSHAFT or Distributor) and the other that measured the RPM from the crank or a large number of teeth in the distributor. I'd use the CAM sensor to tell me where I was, and then use the Flywheel sensor to help me determine RPM based on time between teeth. As I'd know how many teeth we had I would also know where TDC of each cylinder was by counting teeth. Note that the number of teeth must be divisible by 4 to clearly mark the exact TDC point of each cyl if you are also doing Ignition. (I am). >Outputs >- ---------- >* Output to each fuel injector (Digital) > >At worst the engine will rev at 10K requiring 8 x 166 = 1328 pulses per >second. However since anything above 3.5K RPM results in the injectors >struggling to keep up with this rate of pulsing then above this I could >start firing injectors in banks, ie fire 2 together up to 5K RPM then fire >4 together up to 7K RPM then above this just leave all 8 open to get as >much fuel in the engine as possible? This makes the worst case for >injexctor output at 3.5K RPM which would be equal to 3500/60 * 8 = 466Hz. >If I need to be able to control at 1 msec intervals then I would need to be >able to output at 1KHz. I think I will require clever electronics in order >to address 8 injectors individually or in pairs (any ideas for this)? Would >I need a system with 8 digital outputs at 1KHz each? Your timing resolution needs to be much better than 1ms. for the injector. Our Honda is idles comforably with the load of the Hovercraft Fan (Giant Computer Fan (GCF)) at 1000RPM. Pulse width once the engine is warmed up is about 1.0ms and at 1500 RPM about 1.25ms. At WOT driving the FAN with all available torque the PW is only 8.25ms. > >If I was to control the ignition timing electronically, it would probably >be using a control to advance and retard the timing using a servo based on >readings for load / rpm and engine acceleration rather than trying to >calculate each pulse directly. If I had to calculate exactly then it would >require very accurate position sensing of the crank. Let me know any >thought on this? For starters though, it will be a standard distributer >setup using vacuum for retard. If you can avoid developing and testing ignition at the same time as injection then do it. Beats doing it at the same time. I was fortunate. We had an engine on the Dyno that used an Allison Throttle Body Carb (aircraft) and I debugged the ignition first. > >To summise, I think it is possible to control all the basics for an engine >management system using a laptop without reaching any sampling limitations. >This means that it is not neccessary to use any external processing >capability. The processor is fast enough but the DOS/WIN clock will interfere with engine management. you need A/D for the analog signals. An external box into the serial port may not deliver the MAP sensor value in time. If you use a PCMCIA A/D board you can access that hardware directly. To give you another idea of the problems. I still have a latency issue that I have yet to resolve. I think it's in how I'm handling my sensors but I can be idling and push the throttle to the firewall and I get a short stumble and rattle before the engine controller catches the change in MAP and Throttle Position and injects a big enough burst. Once it catches though, the GCF is up to maxium speed in seconds. Quite impressive. Regards, John From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 13 20:33:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23950 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:33:05 -0400 Received: from rgate2.ricochet.net (rgate2.ricochet.net [204.179.143.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23947 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:33:04 -0400 Received: from jawbreaker (mg-20425422-67.ricochet.net [204.254.22.67]) by rgate2.ricochet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA06577 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:32:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990813203120.0148f4a4@pop.ricochet.net> X-Sender: synchris@pop.ricochet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:31:45 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Chris Conlon Subject: Re: Laptop engine management system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >...What I will try to do is get the basics of a system developed then I >will open source my code (C++) for all to use and develop if interested. >This will help me to achieve what I want and also aid others. I'm going to >try and base it on a standard analogue and digital sampling / control >interface for a PC so that nothing is unique unless it has to be. Let me say up front that I'm not trying to be negative, I think this idea is well worth pursuing. (Like everyone else here I'm doing my own engine control stuff too.) I'm just trying to get a clear picture of why you're making certain choices. The first thing I would ask is why do you say you want to do this with a PC/laptop? What benefit is it you're after? Not that there are none, just that it may help us understand the constraints of your design. It doesn't sound like you're aiming for any specific OS. Are you looking for a system with easy SW development tools? Generic hardware? Do you want a nice little display that can ride in the dashboard or passenger seat? Is it primarily an educational/instructional exercise? Would you specifically like to (or like to avoid!) building any part of the hardware yourself? Understanding what it is you're hoping to get by using a laptop instead of an embedded uC will help us make better suggestions (imho). Beyond that I have only a few relatively useless words. For the engine management per se, any OS beyond an RTOS is basically useless, except as a dev/boot platform. You gonna do a lot of disk io/network io/memory mapping/UI graphics while driving? You already have to wire all your code into core; can you imagine what happens the first time you get a page fault while driving? ;) (Now your data logging, mapping and adjustment software is a different story of course.) You probably *could* use a full-size OS, if you can lock out other interrupts, but what is it *gaining* you? Again, understanding this will help. Ignition timing is by far the toughest (time-wise) and perhaps the most critical. Injector timing is not too hard by comparison. All else is a cakewalk. So consider hardware support for the tough parts, which could be built-in timer channels in an embedded controller, or add-ons to a generic PC. The hardware in one lousy little 68hc11 will make up for so much brute cpu power required to do the same things in software via ints and a generic timer. If you go with a big OS (non-RTOS), and don't have hardware support for certain things, you *will* be writing device drivers, and (in the case of ignition timing) you *will* be having latency problems. Even at a lowly 8000 RPM, every 20usec is one crank degree. If your OS thought it was doing anything important come spark time, uhhh that's how many degrees of retard again? "Oops". One of the main things an RTOS guarantees you that a big OS does not is an absolute max (OS-imposed) interrupt latency, for just this reason. My personal opinion is that the mechanics of how I manage the spark and injector timing are a lot less interesting than how I calculate what those values should be (maps, formulas), and how you condition the sensor values. Perhaps you could have a somewhat modular design, where there is a "black box" which deals with the cam sensor, injectors and spark. It provides info on RPM, delta RPM, misfire, whatever. You feed it info on spark advance, injector timing and pulse width. (Maybe this box also handles MAP/MAF/AFM input too; IMHO the filtering on MAP is important and sometimes tricky.) Pretty much all the other sensors are less high-speed and thus your "higher level" control code could deal with them in a less real-time-critical way. Ideally you would update spark & injector timing once every rev, or once per spark, but even that is a lot less demanding time-wise than taking interrupts to fire sparks and turn injectors on and off. Data flow to and from this box would be easily handled by the bidirectional parallel port common on PCs, USB, or marginally so by a high speed serial line. As an aside, someone said A/D parts are slow. A/D parts are not slow, they're as fast as you can afford, up to and including sample rates in the hundreds of megahertz. Sub-5-usec is not hard to get, and if you use many singles instead of a big mux-ed part, you can almost always pipeline the reads, so the effective conversion time = 0. Ok, that's my BS quota for the month. Hope it helped. Chris From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 14 05:06:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA28383 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 05:06:24 -0400 Received: from teapot16.domain4.bigpond.com (teapot16.domain4.bigpond.com [139.134.5.164]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA28379 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 05:06:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by teapot16.domain4.bigpond.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ca394578 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:55:23 +1000 Received: from DC-100-230.bpb.bigpond.com ([203.40.100.230]) by mail4.bigpond.com (Claudes-Choosy-MailRouter V2.4d 7/545551); 14 Aug 1999 18:55:22 Message-ID: <37B52FBC.28DF4A97@bigpond.com> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:58:37 +0800 From: Ken Tompson Organization: Horse Power Science and Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re:Digest V4 #464 / William T Wilson comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, I have been following along for about a week and am finding I need to get in 15 mins earlier each day in order to have a quick sniff through the digest. The question, "Will a PC be able to run an engine using Windows operating system?" I think not. If you can get it running properly, I will take off my shoes and walk to Sydney in bare feet, a trip of about 3000 miles. Look, I am sure the engine will run, but so does a K-Jetronic or sprint car with its garden hose sprinkler system. We sample combustion pressure at rocket fast speeds using a PC. We make an encoder for 360 pulse per rev, or 720 ppr (plus tdc, or other reference), 10,000 rpm? on the 1/2 degree, no problem. With a serial cable deal? you are really flogging a dead horse, man this is one huge bottle neck. Windows for real time control? The main problem here is that there are only one million micro seconds in a second. So if we give the serial cable the flick, we need to digitize the analog data into RAM, so that the Intel can do something with it. WINDOWS HAS A HUGE PROBLEM AND THAT IS WINDOWS, but other operating systems are not a whole lot better at resolving our real time PC nightmare. Windows interrupt latencies is a big drama, the engine needs an answer sooner than the PC is prepared to give it. Data will enter the PC memory via one of the following pathways:- 1. A generated interrupt, telling the PC to stop what it is doing and go take a look at whatever. Very SLOW! 2. The software can be set up to go poll whatever you want looked at. Again the poor old Intel is dragged to it's knees. 3. Direct Memory Access. Dma is efficient at getting the data into memory, but it is still a slug, unless you can buffer your data on the hardware you are using, not going to give the Intel a real time picture, is it? The extra piece of hardware is triggering the sampling (not the Intel Pentium). A PCI add-in with a bus master controller, is a slightly different twist. So now we are not limited to ISA Dma availability, but this was not our problem. The tightest code that you will write, will be with a WATCOM C/C++ version 11 compiler. You can set up your globals to act as a server for the various events taking place. We have a virtual dyno controller set up exactly like this, so I know the PID update rate that is possible. The faster the Pentium, the greater your chances of course. We are able to sample at 1 Mega HZ and even much faster, but then the PC is merely a tool to display collected data, the add-in hardware with its on board firmware and co-processor does all the work, not the PC. I once had a little steam engine that ran. Just add water and methylated spirits and it went round and round and up and down, but that is about all it did. A bit like our 8 stroking PC controlled engine. I had planned to stand back and watch the experiment unfold. As a newby I was not sure whether I was supposed to shut up and observe, but after reading and agreeing with the comments of W. Wilson, I guessed that it would be permissible for me to put in my 20c worth? I think this is a great venue for exchange of ideas, but a lot of work for the people doing the organizing. Regards, Kevin Jaeger. email kjaeger@superflow.com.au PS Remember the engine is not going to want to stop for us to take it's picture. From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 14 12:10:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA31049 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:10:36 -0400 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31046 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:10:35 -0400 Received: from slow-astrid - 63.13.49.109 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:10:03 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01bee66f$67bf4820$02000003@slow-astrid> From: "John Kosche" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #467 Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:09:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I've installed an '89 Ford 5.8 injected engine in a first generation Ford van. Engine runs.. I have two wires that I have received conflicting advice on. one it the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) the second is the selector position sensor.. Are they required? Any input is appreiciated, John Kosche From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 14 15:57:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA32764 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:57:27 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32760 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:57:24 -0400 Received: from ains.net.au (cgw066.ains.net.au [210.9.53.66]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA03335 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 05:55:23 +1000 Message-Id: <199908141955.FAA03335@dalek.ains.net.au> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 05:56:53 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Laptop Management References: <199908131900.PAA19901@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Try this for size. RPM = 5500 or 91.6 RPS or 32,999 degrees/sec. People live in days and hours engines live in degrees. In order to digitally plot 33,000 degrees to an accuracy of 1 degree you will need to have some very flexible timers. You are going to have to calculate RPM a minimum of 4 times per revolution otherwise your ignition timing will fall in a heap as the engine accelerates. If your rate of change is 2500 rpm/sec that is from 2500 to 5000 in one second ! Then the rate of change per rev is on average 7 degrees. If you wait until after the end of the revolution and then start your calculation you would be lucky to be within 12 -14 degree of MBT timing. The very first thing is to establish the task. What am I controlling and what are it's requirements. Is it a requirement that the system be of a certain standard ? Do you need closed loop for catalytic converter feeding or can it be dispensed with. Do you need one pressure sensor or two ? I wish someone would slap me with a solid answer on this as I feel it's still not firmly established what is going on. As much as every control engineer loves a closed loop. It is the solution that works the slowest. The sensor takes for ever to register a change. most brand new broadband sensors take 200 - 300 ms that's enough time to do 25 to 30 revolutions or 120 firing strokes without a clue. Most carbys can do as well if not better. Your system, if it is to inspire others, should be of a Linux vs M$ battle do better than the big companies not worse. > If I need to be able to control at 1 msec intervals then I would need to be > able to output at 1 kHz. I think I will require clever electronics in order > to address 8 injectors individually or in pairs (any ideas for this)? Would > I need a system with 8 digital outputs at 1 kHz each? The resolution for injector control is 0.01 ms or 10 micro seconds which ever comes sooner. The grouping of injectors is very much a peripheral issue compared to accuracy of the injection duration. If your engine performs 120 firing strokes without you updating the output buffer then 119 of them will have the wrong A/F ratio regardless of your target. The A/D on your load sensing should be updated a a minimum of once per combustion so as to give minimum accuracy. > If I was to control the ignition timing electronically, it would probably > be using a control to advance and retard the timing using a servo I can't think why an engineer would suggest such a thing. Maybe your pentium has a valve with a faulty heater element. Or perhaps the clock work spring in the computers dynamo power supply has run down ???? Nissan often uses 180 pulses per revolution to measure engine speed. Toyota 12/rev, Ford 8 /rev, GM 18/rev. Why would they bother if it could be done using the postal system. I know that this might sound a tad sarcastic but I'm desperately trying to bring you a couple of orders of magnitude closer to the problem. It is some what akin to me thinking that the "K" in my processor is dead because when I hit it on the keyboard it doesn't come out onto the screen. We both know that there are many many layers of software and hardware between the two events but I'm standing in the shop asking the repair man to put a new "K" in my chip. Once again please forgive my tone I'm just an aging fool with a bee in his bonnet Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 14 16:25:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00469 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:25:55 -0400 Received: from ilma.cc.lut.fi (qmailr@ilma.cc.lut.fi [157.24.8.113]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00466 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:25:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 22824 invoked from network); 14 Aug 1999 20:25:52 -0000 Received: from sk28-f-17-2.lnet.lut.fi (HELO lut.fi) (157.24.104.210) by ilma.cc.lut.fi with SMTP; 14 Aug 1999 20:25:52 -0000 Message-ID: <37B5D0D0.222DF476@lut.fi> Disposition-Notification-To: Pekka Ripatti Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:25:52 +0300 From: Pekka Ripatti X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: New to DIY_EFI References: <199908141900.PAA32140@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all. I've subscribed few days ago to this list and thought that you would like to know my aim. I'm a member of a Mileage Marathon -team in our school (Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland), the team is named Tippa-Team. Our engine concept is quite simple - a 4 stroke, 42 cc, petrol (98 oct) powered, single cylinder engine ran for short periods at full throttle. The rule is that the average speed of one run is 25 km/h and one run is approx. 20 km of round track with standing start. We accelerate 35 km/h and turn off the engine. The vehicle (named Titanic Sauna) then rolls and at 17 km/h (or so) we start the engine again (with a motorbike's electric starter) and accelerate to 35 again. This goes on until the last lap, where the aim is to have close to no speed at the finish line. We are planning to build a completely new engine and it would be challenging (and awarding) to build our EFI, because commercial applications aren't too well suited for this use. for more info see http://www.ltky.lut.fi/org/tippateam/Englanti/vehicle.html From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 14 20:25:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02530 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:25:34 -0400 Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02527 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:25:33 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jLTMa00252 (4522) for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <62a40204.24e762cb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:43 EDT Subject: promedit/ecu files To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am curious as to what compatibility lies in the ecu files used with promedit. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the table locations going to be the same for any 256k eprom out of a '727 ecm regardless the GM application. The thing I was confused about is that I thought that 727's were used on both TPI and TBI applications. Does this change table locations, sizes, and definitions? I guess what I am asking is would an ecu file for a 727 TBI system work for a 727 TPI system? Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 15 10:55:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08279 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:55:25 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08275 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:55:23 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-6.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.70]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02869 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:55:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:55:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199908151455.JAA02869@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #469 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:43 EDT >From: Mikepoore@aol.com >Subject: promedit/ecu files > >I am curious as to what compatibility lies in the ecu files used with >promedit. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the table >locations going to be the same for any 256k eprom out of a '727 ecm >regardless the GM application. The thing I was confused about is that I >thought that 727's were used on both TPI and TBI applications. Does this >change table locations, sizes, and definitions? I guess what I am asking is >would an ecu file for a 727 TBI system work for a 727 TPI system? > >Mike Poore > >------------------------------ > You have alot of home work to do. Start in the aarchives, and search for related items. The 727 was an underhood version of a 730. The 730 was used in one TBI application (one injector). There are hundreds of ways gm organized the tables for 256/512/32 proms. Some different auto to manual tranny. The 730 was used on 4-6-8 MAF/MAP TBI/TPI Distributor/DIS applications PT is still really tough, and was in ER several times lately, but hanging in there. Took 2 hours but did a 2 mile walk yesterday, payin for it today. At the limits of meds, one milligram dosage error was what some ER stuff was about. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 15 12:21:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08955 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:21:55 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08951 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:21:54 -0400 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA21346 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:21:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908151621.LAA21346@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> Received: from user-2iveb2j.dialup.mindspring.com(165.247.44.83) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021313; Sun Aug 15 11:21:15 1999 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:55:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: flight simulator part In-reply-to: <199908130900.FAA11711@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I will check with my brother who is a lead F-15 flight simulator engineer, in St. Louis but only messes with Lotus Europa and Elan carburetors not FI. Thou alot of flight simulator real time control theory can be applied to FI. They must include the fuel controller some where. Also check http://www.questlink.com they seem to have 99.99% of data sheets available on web and with small quanity parts order, but large handling charge. If there are better parts portals please post. Alex > Does anyone have the pinout/specs (anything?) handy for the Signetics > N82S2708N. > One of our CAE TWA 727 flight simulators at work smoked one of these > ROM's and I can't find any info on it anywhere. I can use the chip from > it's sister ship next to it, to burn a new one. This is in the motion > cabinet electronics. These machines are pretty complicated for sure. It > has been down for 5 days. > Check out: > http://www.flightsafetyboeing.com/ (I don't know what all is on it..) > > This is electronics, but no EFI content, so please reply privately, if > deemed necessary. > > Thank you all. > > *********************************************************************** > Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.03@110.45 GSCA# 1459 > St.Charles, Missouri > mailto:morepoweral@tetranet.net > http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral > *********************************************************************** From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 15 12:22:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08966 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:22:05 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08963 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:22:03 -0400 From: xxalexx@popd.ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA21348 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:21:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908151621.LAA21348@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> Received: from user-2iveb2j.dialup.mindspring.com(165.247.44.83) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021313; Sun Aug 15 11:21:18 1999 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:55:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FI design C++ In-reply-to: <199908131900.PAA19901@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Circuit Cellar Ink Magazine did two articles on a C++ FI. a few years ago, check this archive, or there web site isue 50 or 60 something. Alex > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:22:51 +0100 > From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com > Subject: Designing Engine Management > ...What I will try to do is get the basics of a system developed then I > will open source my code (C++) for all to use and develop if interested. > This will help me to achieve what I want and also aid others. I'm going to > try and base it on a standard analogue and digital sampling / control > interface for a PC so that nothing is unique unless it has to be. > > From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 01:32:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA15400 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:32:06 -0400 Received: from vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (vehicle.ME.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.125.243]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15397 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:32:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (markw@localhost) by vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/2.7) with ESMTP id WAA23904 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from server.stc (crt-gw.infopro.spb.su [195.201.254.5] (may be forged)) by vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/2.7) with ESMTP id VAA23824 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:54:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from speechpro.com (mikle.stc [192.168.1.2]) by server.stc (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06522; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:50:46 +0400 Message-ID: <37B799B3.38306EC4@speechpro.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:55:16 +0400 From: Mikle Bulygin Organization: STC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: markw@vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Subject: DIY-EFI References Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have Mono-Jetronic system. How it run - very interesting. Where is electronic scheme? Thanks. - Mikle -- ========================= Speech Technology Center P/O Box 452 196084, St. Petersburg RUSSIA Tel: +7 812 325-88-48 296-29-45 Fax: +7 812 327-92-97 mailto:info@speechpro.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 10:40:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20180 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:40:17 -0400 Received: from horizon.hit.net (rah@horizon.hit.net [206.252.160.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20177 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:40:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (rah@localhost) by horizon.hit.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12976 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:40:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Car dieing update/torque convertor problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Here is the update. The Soleinod did not fix things. The tranny fluid was burnt, there was not clutch stuff in the fluid, the probem is still either the clutch is acting weird or the stall speed has changed on the convertor, I have having the convertor removed and sent to the place that made it to have it checked and fixed. I am not sure if I burnt the fluid racing or in the traffic jam going home (it was about 100, and the car was moving at less than 5 mph, and the jam lasted close to an hour). Roger From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 11:41:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21337 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:41:39 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f315.hotmail.com [209.185.131.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21334 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:41:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 76058 invoked by uid 0); 16 Aug 1999 15:41:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19990816154107.76057.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.246.130.80 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:41:06 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.246.130.80] From: "David Sagers" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #467 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:41:06 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a tough call cause I don't really like to interfere with buyers and sellers negoiating, but I have some experience buying a used TEC II system. Be aware that the software license is not transferrable. It is licensed to the original buyer. If someone else wants to use it legally they have to buy a license from Electromotive. The software portion of your $2000 package is $495. Now maybe you don't care about the license, OK, but what are you going to do when you need tech help from Electromotive? If you don't have a valid license they won't help you. I can't blame them, if I were intheir shoes I'd do the same thing. Does the $1400 price include the injetors? >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:30:55 -0700 >From: Jason_Leone@amat.com >Subject: FS: TEC II for six cyl > >Gents, > >I'm selling my Electromotive TEC II for a six cylinder, so it's a free for >all. >I only used it for a couple months, and I'll sell it WITH the software. >Retail >price is $2000 with software, but I'll sell it for $1400 or so. Comes with >all >the hardware (2 Bar MAP sensor, RS-232 cable, crank wheel, mag pickup, >manual, >ECU, coils, PAF Blend software). I'm selling it because my power output >goals >have changed (400hp--->300hp), but will miss the TEC II's power and tuning >parameters. This is a steal, and it won't last long... > >Sorry for the WOB, but I'm not aware of a DIY_EFI classified section... > >Jason >srgnt03@earthlink.net >http://www.electromotive-inc.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 15:42:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25105 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:42:22 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25102 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:42:21 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.143] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11GSe8-0006dkC for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00b601bee820$36895540$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Injector Specifications. Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:46:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Can anyone tell me how to find out the specifications on the Honda 1600cc Vtec Engines? The older models had a resistor bank between 5 and 7 Ohms while the newer ones don't use one. The coil resistance is about 12 Ohms for either model engine but that doesn't seem to be a really good indication of what to use for a resistor because Honda may have used darlington transistors with their extra 2V voltage drop. They may now be using intelligent switches that put a full 12V across the injectors and then lower the current after n micro-seconds. I've found that with a 6.8 ohm resistor that I've had fairly stable fuel delivery whereas we discovered today that using the Honda resistor block (6.2Ohms) that delivery is erratic, especially if the engine gets warm. I'm using sourcing FET devices (c/w short circuit protection and almost no voltage drop) so I suspect I may have to use even a 7.5 Ohm resistor but I don't like this guesswork. Also, I constrained in that I _must_ use the Honda Injectors rather than a specific Bosch Model. Suggestions? Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 18:11:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27008 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:11:55 -0400 Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27001 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:11:52 -0400 Received: from pft101.rh.psu.edu (216-164-192-60.s60.tnt2.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.192.60]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id SAA29238 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990816181442.006c0a18@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: pxtx@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:14:42 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Paul Tholey Subject: Hardrive crash In-Reply-To: <199908120900.FAA28076@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is just a post since I am back online. I am recovering from a hardrive crash last week. Please anyone I need to tie up loose ends with can contact me so we can do so. No Worries, I am not going anywhere. Paul Tholey PS I finally picked up my 87 Starion from it's 2 year storage! I got the 32V Northstar. It (northstar) has to go to the machinist then it will be back home. Yeah baby! From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 16 22:56:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA30185 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:56:58 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30161; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:55:11 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id Q0K4XK3J; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:55:04 -0400 Message-ID: <37B8CEF4.48794477@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:54:44 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fanglers , GMECM , DIYEFI Subject: FTP Server Temporarily Down Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To those of you who download regularly from my FTP box, I apologize, for the next eleven hours it will be down, as that's how long its going to take slackware to arrive through the modems. So, its not on your end :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 02:54:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA32186 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:54:52 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32183 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:54:51 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.157] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11Gd8w-0006d1C for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00c301bee87e$2a0b0080$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: FI Fuel Filters Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:59:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, Can anyone tell me the benefits of installing a high pressure fuel filter on the outlet of the pump verses a low pressure filter on the suction side of the pump? Obviously this is an external pump and is mounted some distance from the tank. I'm trying to win a discussion. My feeling is that the filters on the pressure side have, in essence, smaller holes because there is more pressure available to force the fuel through the filter. Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 06:40:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA01457 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:40:05 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA01452 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:40:03 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:40:27 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.10] by grolen.com id 34e40.wrk; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:39:08 EDT Message-ID: <37B93BE1.A1F9AEEF@grolen.com> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:39:29 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: FI Fuel Filters References: <199908170900.FAA00589@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:59:42 -0700 > From: "John Dammeyer" > Subject: FI Fuel Filters > > Hi All, > > Can anyone tell me the benefits of installing a high pressure fuel > filter on the outlet of the pump verses a low pressure filter on the > suction side of the pump? Obviously this is an external pump and is > mounted some distance from the tank. pressure side filter is to trap particles. Suction side filter must be fairly free flowing, more so if there's no low pressure supply pump. Restriction on the suction side makes for aeration and dry pumps pretty easily. Even with low pressure supply pump, filter media shouldn't be too fine. But there should still be something there to trap small pieces of grit and protect the pump. > My feeling is that the filters on the > pressure side have, in essence, smaller holes because there is more > pressure available to force the fuel through the filter. In essence. > > I'm trying to win a discussion. Well in that case, get very loud and repeat "I don't care what you say, I'm right." It has worked for me... : ) Shannen > Thanks, > > John > From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 10:31:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03574 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:31:09 -0400 Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03571 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:31:08 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jOMGa20496 (4327) for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40f2bc34.24eacbfd@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:30:21 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #473 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 8/17/99 5:40:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > Can anyone tell me the benefits of installing a high pressure fuel > filter on the outlet of the pump verses a low pressure filter on the > suction side of the pump? Obviously this is an external pump and is > mounted some distance from the tank. The obvious reason is that it's a lot easier to replace a filter that's not inside the fuel tank. Secondly, it's customary to place a filter after the pump to remove any debris generated by the pump. Even carb. engines had a small filter between the pump and carb. I don't think pressure has anything to do with it. And don't forget there is actually two filters in most systems including the strainer in the tank, which in essence is a filter. From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 10:32:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03647 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:32:19 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03644 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:32:18 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-6.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.70]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA16621 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:32:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:32:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199908171432.JAA16621@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #473 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: "John Dammeyer" >Subject: FI Fuel Filters The best way to do it is with a seperator (ie sediment bowl) betwween the tank, and pump and then a filter between the fuel pump and engine. The pump needs to be close to the tank, and perferably below the tank. Also, best to siphon feed the pump. And proper lines, and diameters. Bruce > >Can anyone tell me the benefits of installing a high pressure fuel >filter on the outlet of the pump verses a low pressure filter on the >suction side of the pump? Obviously this is an external pump and is >mounted some distance from the tank. > >I'm trying to win a discussion. My feeling is that the filters on the >pressure side have, in essence, smaller holes because there is more >pressure available to force the fuel through the filter. > >Thanks, > >John From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 14:17:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07239 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:17:46 -0400 Received: from be.be.com (be.be.com [208.243.144.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07236 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:17:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199908171817.OAA07236@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 25861 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 18:12:27 -0000 Received: from dugintel.be.com (10.113.215.182) by mail.be.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 18:12:27 -0000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #473 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:17:40 PDT From: "Douglas Wright" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.1d0] Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I replied to a post yesterday and have not seen it show up in any digest. Is the list moderated in some way that my post was removed? thanks, dug From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 17:54:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA11122 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:54:00 -0400 Received: from blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com (blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com [192.161.36.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11118 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:53:57 -0400 Received: from blv-hub-01.boeing.com ([192.48.21.11]) by blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id OAA00869 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-smtpin-01.boeing.com by blv-hub-01.boeing.com with ESMTP for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:27 -0700 Received: from hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com (hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com [134.51.1.44]) by blv-smtpin-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.9.0-M2) with ESMTP id OAA17463 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com [134.51.1.60]) by hpnfssvr.msc.az.boeing.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA21998 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:25 -0700 (MST) Received: (from tc75918@localhost) by hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA27219 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:24 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Message-Id: <199908172150.OAA27219@hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com> Subject: MCU recomendation? To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (EFI ) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:24 -0700 (MST) Organization: McDonnell Douglas Helicopter X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can someone who knows a bit more than I do about MCUs reccomend one and a development board to use? I'm new to this and I'm finding it near impossible to decide what chip/board I should be looking at. I'm learning as I go, but I don't even know enough where to start. I definitely want one that I can get a C compiler for. I think the Hitachi might be good as their dev. kits come with one (or two). Cost of course is an issue. The Hitachi boards start around $150 complete with C compiler, power supply, board, etc.. I figure I can afford up to $250. Maybe $300 if there's a strong case for that particular set-up. My application is a controller for a water injection system. I'll want to read input from items like a MAP and/or MAF sensors, rpm from the coil, duty cycle and pulse width from an injector. Maybe some others later on as well. I plan to use this as a learning experience to do bigger and more complex things so I want a system with some expansion potential. Some of the things I want to do is control (pulse) a solenoid for the water injection similar to how the progressive nitrous controllers do. And possibly controlling an additional fuel injector or two. Also, drive an LCD showing the duty cycle and pulse width. There are bazillions of chips just from Hitachi. Each slightly different as to what's on it. What features should I be looking for for this kind of work? I do want a Flash controller BTW just because they look easier to program/re-program. A/D converters? 8-bit? 10-bit? How many channels? Comparators? Are these used in place of an A/D converter? D/A? Even needed? Watchdog timers? I/O ? Bus? CAN, SCI, IrDA ? 8-bit? 16-bit? 32-bit? 64-bit? Speeds from 12 MHz to several hundred MHz How much speed and bandwidth is nice to have vs. rediculously too much for what I'm doing? I mean this could probably be done with a PIC. My app is a 4cyl with 6K redline, but I'd like it to work up to 8 cyl and 7K or 8K rpm. Rough memory estimate? 64K? 256K? Memory seems to go up with bus width and speed. I'd rather wait until I get a little bit more experience and understanding before trying to interface external memory chips. Knowing specs like resistance and amperage of my solenoid coils, how do I figure out if the MCU can control it directly or if I need external transistors to do it? I actually purchased an Atmel board over a year ago to do this before I was really ready with anything else, but now that I'm finally back to it, I really want to work with a C compilier instead of assembly. The software I'll figure out on my own as I go. I just need help selecting the right hardware to start with. Any help or advice is welcome. It's painfully obvious I think that I'm not a hardware guy. Even book references would be welcome although most of them are probably written like a college text book. Something like a "MCU's and Embedded Systems Programming for Dummy's" is what I need. thanks much, --Dan houlster@inficad.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 20:59:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12682 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:59:57 -0400 Received: from smtp.tetranet.net (mail.tetranet.net [207.246.192.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12679 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:59:56 -0400 Received: from tetranet.net (stl-161.max21.tetranet.net [207.246.192.161]) by smtp.tetranet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00285 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:59:59 -0500 Message-ID: <37B9F9E8.BD4B20D9@tetranet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:10:16 -0500 From: DC Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: N82S2708N Signetics chip References: <199908160900.FAA16878@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On the part for our dead flight simulator: I just wanted to thank everyone that replied with help identifying the pinout for this chip. I ended up programming a 2716 to replace it and pulling the A10 and VPP lines high, so that it reads the upper $3FF of the 2716. Thanks again everyone! *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.03@110.45 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:morepoweral@tetranet.net http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 17 22:05:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA13649 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:05:45 -0400 Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13646 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:05:44 -0400 From: bjanesi@juno.com Received: (from bjanesi@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EH945VS9; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:05:01 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:12:49 -0400 Subject: Bosch Contact for MAF meter Message-ID: <19990817.215732.3374.8.bjanesi@juno.com> References: <199908170900.FAA00589@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-7,9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone have a contact at Bosch, or just somebody who really knows how the Bosch Air Mass Meter (or MAF) works? I need to get a few simple questions answered ...simple for someone who really knows the details of how these things work. Thanks, Brad (brad.anesi@netiq.com) Several ass't Bosch VAF-meter equipped vehicles, aspiring to be MAF-equipped ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 18 10:29:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01186 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:30 -0400 Received: from mail4.desupernet.net (IDENT:qmailr@mail4.desupernet.net [204.249.184.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01183 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:29 -0400 Received: (qmail 31311 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 13:28:28 -0000 Received: from port11-10.ephrata.desupernet.net (HELO speedy) (208.170.177.25) by mail4.desupernet.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 13:28:28 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990818092009.0093bd50@mail.desupernet.net> X-Sender: kgakuu@mail.desupernet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:28:09 +0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Kihurani Gakuu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #475 In-Reply-To: <199908180900.FAA16440@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:50:24 -0700 (MST) >From: d houlton x0710 >Subject: MCU recomendation? > >Can someone who knows a bit more than I do about MCUs reccomend one and a >development board to use? > >I'm new to this and I'm finding it near impossible to decide what chip/board >I should be looking at. I'm learning as I go, but I don't even know enough >where to start. > >I definitely want one that I can get a C compiler for. I think the Hitachi >might be good as their dev. kits come with one (or two). Cost of course is >an issue. The Hitachi boards start around $150 complete with C compiler, >power supply, board, etc.. I figure I can afford up to $250. Maybe $300 >if there's a strong case for that particular set-up. Check out this site: http://rigelcorp.com/home.htm. You can get an evaluation board for the SIEMENS C-166 for less than $150(US). It comes with an evaluation copy of RIGEL's proprietary C Compiler, READS166. The full version of the compiler costs $300, but memory is limited to 64k. Find out if this is what you need to get started. Kih From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 18 10:32:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01255 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:32:03 -0400 Received: from users.qual.net (members.harborcom.net [209.57.253.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01252 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:32:01 -0400 Received: from gderian (dialcust-144.ts8.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.2.144]) by users.qual.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA06840 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <014f01bee981$144e95a0$9002d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <199908180900.FAA16440@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #475 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:18:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu How about this? http://el.www.media.mit.edu/projects/handy-board There are others, also. Gary Derian > Subject: MCU recomendation? > > Can someone who knows a bit more than I do about MCUs reccomend one and a > development board to use? > > I'm new to this and I'm finding it near impossible to decide what chip/board > I should be looking at. I'm learning as I go, but I don't even know enough > where to start. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 18 12:18:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03837 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:18:56 -0400 Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03834 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:18:55 -0400 From: Fisystems@aol.com Received: from Fisystems@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jHHKa07549 (4424) for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <86b0aee2.24ec36aa@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:17:46 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #474 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 8/17/99 12:23:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << V4 >> Looking for bin file (1993,94) Vette LT1. Thanks Ken Murillo fisystems@aol.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 18 14:42:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06346 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:42:27 -0400 Received: from be.be.com (be.be.com [208.243.144.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA06342 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:42:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199908181842.OAA06342@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 20725 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 18:37:07 -0000 Received: from dugintel.be.com (10.113.215.182) by mail.be.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 18:37:07 -0000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: real time OS Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:46:43 PDT From: "Douglas Wright" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.1d0] Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >No chance. Windows cannot do this. Linux probably can if you are >comfortable with programming for real time applications, but you would >probably be safest with a genuine real-time OS, which of course is a very >specialized skill and probably expensive for the software. > >You kind of reach a point of diminishing returns with PC hardware. The >CPUs today are designed for computationally intensive applications which >engine management is certainly not. Your real bottleneck is the I/O, >most PC systems are very poor at this and it's the most important part of >engine management. > Hello, We have designed BeOS to be able to handle digital audio processing with very low latency. We can have audio buffers as small as 1.3 msec without experiencing any dropouts or glitches. And an incoming midi note can get from the port to a user appliction in under 100 microsecs. As you said, PC hardware can do this, but some OSes can't. We have fully multi-threaded environment, but with a twist. Threads with priorities from 1-99 are on a round robin schedule with threads with a higher priority getting to run more often. Threads with priority 100-120 are "real-time" threads. They get to run as long as they want AND there isn't a higher priority thread running. I would be happy to help anyone that would like to try using BeOS for doing FI management. I would do it myself, but I've got plenty of work to do already;-) thanks, dug Audio Software Engineer Be, Inc. http://www.be.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 19 05:55:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA15255 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:55:28 -0400 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA15251 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:55:25 -0400 Received: from [212.140.4.62] (helo=alansmit) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11HOum-0007Tp-00 for DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:55:21 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01beea29$78ccd0c0$3e048cd4@alansmit> From: "Alan Smith" To: "DIY-EFI" Subject: 80515 / 80535 Dissassembler Wanted Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:59:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEA31.D97B8300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEA31.D97B8300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had a look at the excellent 6811 disassembler software. What I = would really like is a good disassembler for the 8039 / 8051 / 80515 / = 80535 processors. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good = disassembler for these ? Alan Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEA31.D97B8300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have had a look at the excellent 6811 disassembler = software.=20 What I would really like is a good disassembler for the 8039 / 8051 / = 80515 /=20 80535 processors. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good = disassembler=20 for these ?
 
Alan Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEA31.D97B8300-- From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 19 14:58:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22106 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:58:34 -0400 Received: from itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us (root@itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us [198.189.148.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22102 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:58:32 -0400 Received: from bc.cc.ca.us (host-8-231.bc.cc.ca.us [198.189.8.231]) by itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21789 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37BC53AC.F36A36E3@bc.cc.ca.us> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:57:48 -0700 From: MASON HAYES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Green References: <199908181900.PAA06838@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI enthusiast: My name is Mason (POR). Im new @ the fuel injection game. Ive been given much inspiration by my car> I own a 1980 datsun/NISSAN 280ZX. Its equipped with BOSCH L-JETRONIC fuel injection. I have knowledge of electronics, chemistry physics and automotive. I have some laboring questions that I hope someone can help me with. 1)SCHEMATICS!! SCHEMATICS! and design parameters for L-jet ECM. Im to pooor to be buying ECM's and tearing them apart. I am fully capable of servicing and modifing and hope to purchase an ECM (salvage yard) so I can scrap the old one. However any insight into this that you may have will be much appreciated. 2)Rebuilding: I plan on rebuilding my engine in the future and as always I wish to bore it over. How much can you bore before the fuel injection ECM has to be modified (adjusted) and what adjustments are to be made ie. reprogram, recalibrate, replace sensors, modify air flow meter etc..etc... Also what are the considerations for different cams. 3) Another web sight mentioned multi-throttle intake. Any additional information on this would be real helpful. Who what when where how why. 4)Modifying another previously aspirated (normally) engine to EFI 5)EQUATIONS! EQUATIONS! and criteria for fuel injection systems. Algebra or calculus based is fine 6)FORCED AIR INDUCTION. Not turbo not supercharged not blowers , but simple forced air induction. does anyone have a clue. I have some ideas for a ducting system that uses a vacuum controled baffle at the mouth to prevent raised idle. but I have not seen under the hood of any car that uses FAI so any information would be helpful. Do I have to modify air flow meter (stiffer spring)? 7)LAMBDA?? P.S. The server I'm using is not mine I do not have control and my E-mail gets dumped when I log off. Please do not be anoyed if I ask a question that has been answered as I may not have seen it or the answer was dumped. I thank you all for time an expertise Mason Hayes 661-831-3845 MAHAYES@BC.CC.CA.US From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 19 16:12:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23439 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:12:45 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23436 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:12:43 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA13210; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:12:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(216.80.179.82) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012813; Thu Aug 19 15:11:58 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990819150606.009bc6b0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: dewhisna@indycar.dewtronics.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:16:40 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Donald Whisnant Subject: 80515 / 80535 Dissassembler Wanted Cc: "Alan Smith" In-Reply-To: <199908191900.PAA22164@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:59:03 +0100 >From: "Alan Smith" >Subject: 80515 / 80535 Dissassembler Wanted > >I have had a look at the excellent 6811 disassembler software. What I = >would really like is a good disassembler for the 8039 / 8051 / 80515 / = >80535 processors. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good = >disassembler for these ? > >Alan Smith Alan... On the future versions of my M6811DIS disassembler, I am migrating to what I call a GDC (Generic Disassembly Class). The idea is a C++ object that wrappers the common parts of the disassembly operation so that disassemblers for additional processors can be written with relative ease... All that has to be written is the opcode list for the processor and a few functions to format the operands for the target assembler and presto, you have a disassembler for a different processor... I am planning to do one for the 8031/8051 architecture at some point in the not so distant future... I haven't looked at the differences in the 80515/80535 over the original 8051, but imagine it shouldn't be too difficult to add either... In the meantime, it seems like I have a disassembler somewhere for the 8051 -- if you want, email me privately and I'll dig through my archives and see if I can dig it up... However, I'm quite sure that it is NOT a code-seeking disassembler and I don't know how well it will work on 80515/80535 stuff (depends on the differences)... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@ix.netcom.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 19 23:55:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA28863 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:55:15 -0400 Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28860 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:55:14 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jGSTa16280 (3930) for ; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:54:33 EDT Subject: Emulators and eprom carriers? To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Any suggestions on how to attach an emulator to a gm ecm with the carrier in the way? Does anyone know of a source for extra carriers? Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 20 16:08:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07685 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:08:58 -0400 Received: from oceanside.hpubs.com (oceanside.hpubs.com [209.75.19.159]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07679 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:08:54 -0400 From: rpettibo@hpubs.com Received: by oceanside.hpubs.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 882567D3.006D7CDC ; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:55:53 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HOWARD ENERGY To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <882567D3.007EAB16.00@oceanside.hpubs.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:10:36 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #474 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think the simple answer to this question is a fuel pump is designed to pump against head pressure. In other words push fuel. Fuel injection pumps are not engineered to act as a suction type device. Therefore, restrictions on the inlet side must be kept to a minimum. This is why the pump must always be at or below the fuel supply level to insure the pump never runs dry. If the fuel filter begins to restrict the flow of fuel and the pump runs dry it will fail. From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 20 21:28:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA11018 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:28:30 -0400 Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11015 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:28:29 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jSKSa22756 (3930) for ; Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <18fca0f9.24ef5a8f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:27:43 EDT Subject: 1226870 Eprom Question HELP! To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I tried programming a 2732 eprom for my 1226870 ecm. I used gmedit to do it. Everything checked out ok on the programmer. All I changed was the cooling fan temps and idle speed. I plugged it in and the car will start and run fine. The problem is that the SES light flickers very quickly. If I plug my scanner into the ALDL the flicker goes away even after unplugging it, but once I shut down the engine and restart it the flicker returns. Am I using the wrong speed eprom? Does it matter if it's a 2732, 2732a, 2732b, or 27c32? Any suggestions or comments appreciated. I don't want to test drive the car until I am sure I it isn't going to melt. Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 08:54:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA16369 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:54:18 -0400 Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16366 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:54:17 -0400 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jTBVa28691 (4390) for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35fba45.24effb4d@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:53:33 EDT Subject: From digest: 2732 eprom changed caused SES light To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Mike, you didn't specifically mention changing the checksun. Making the mods you've described, and ignoring it colud cause the SES light. Mike V > > I tried programming a 2732 eprom for my 1226870 ecm. I used gmedit to do it. > > Everything checked out ok on the programmer. All I changed was the cooling > fan temps and idle speed. I plugged it in and the car will start and run > fine. The problem is that the SES light flickers very quickly. If I plug my > scanner into the ALDL the flicker goes away even after unplugging it, but > once I shut down the engine and restart it the flicker returns. > > Am I using the wrong speed eprom? > Does it matter if it's a 2732, 2732a, 2732b, or 27c32? > > Any suggestions or comments appreciated. I don't want to test drive the car > until I am sure I it isn't going to melt. > > Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 09:10:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16543 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:10:14 -0400 Received: from mailrelay3.sni.net (mailrelay3.sni.net [199.117.160.142]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16540 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:10:13 -0400 Received: from [204.132.128.1] (p1.Steamboat.dialup.csn.net [204.132.128.1]) by mailrelay3.sni.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA30899 for mail_from ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:10:10 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@lynx.sni.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:09:47 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@sni.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #479 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I think the simple answer to this question is a fuel pump is designed to >pump against head pressure. In other words push fuel. Fuel injection >pumps are not engineered to act as a suction type device. Therefore, >restrictions on the inlet side must be kept to a minimum. This is why the >pump must always be at or below the fuel supply level to insure the pump >never runs dry. > >If the fuel filter begins to restrict the flow of fuel and the pump runs >dry it will fail. > If you look up and under stand the concept of minimum required NPSH--Net Positive Suction Head--as one of a pump's performance characteristics--either in a (good) thorough industrial pump catalogue or in agood, practically oriented, fluids testbook, you will have gone a long way toward understanding what is going on here. A fuel pump has operational problems similar to those faced by a condensate well pump (in a steam power plant), although not quite so demanding. Regards, Greg From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 17:09:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21683 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:09:22 -0400 Received: from mail3.lig.bellsouth.net (mail3.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21669; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:09:05 -0400 Received: from n5xmt (host-209-215-4-40.int.bellsouth.net [209.215.4.40]) by mail3.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19101; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990821170209.00979920@mail.lig.bellsouth.net> X-Sender: n5xmt@mail.lig.bellsouth.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:08:53 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Eprom Emulators Cc: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all, Well, It only takes one bad apple to spoil it for all... Seems because of the delays in receiving everyones checks, The kidnapping of my son, the delay caused by the PCB house notifying me the gerber and CNC drill files were hosed and the recent delay caused by my emergency trip to California due to my mothers recent stroke, a member of this group has threatened to bring legal action against me. Due to this asshole from New York (Mike Naberezney), I will refund everyones money over the next 2 to 3 weeks and yall are on your own. I'll not distribute the boards, because if they have the slightest wiring error, or even don't look right, someone may decide to follow this new york prick's footsteps and sue me. Seems everytime someone tries to be nice and help out, some PRICK has to come along and ruin it for everyone. If anyone wants to thank this asswipe personally, here is his email: mnaberez@nyx.net Have nice lives, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT@KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 19:43:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23344 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:43:52 -0400 Received: from ns1.foothill.net (root@ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23341; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:43:51 -0400 Received: from xu300 (dialup010.foothill.net [209.76.42.10]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA01738; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001f01beec2e$70a40240$0100a8c0@xu300> From: "TK" To: , Cc: References: <4.2.0.58.19990821170209.00979920@mail.lig.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Eprom Emulators Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:39:39 -0700 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Dave, Sorry to hear about your mom. I hope she's doing better. What is his reason for this? The delay? Terry >, a member of this group has > threatened to bring legal action against me. Due to this asshole from New > York (Mike Naberezney), I will refund everyones money over the next 2 to 3 > weeks and yall are on your own. From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 19:49:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23523 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:49:16 -0400 Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23520 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:49:15 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jOVRa01988 (3930) for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:49:09 EDT Subject: 1226870's and eprom UPDATE To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I successfully copied my stock prom to a new eprom without a hitch. If I change one parameter it won't work correctly. The ses light flickers. Someone mentioned a problem with the checksum. Is there a difference between the checksums for a TPI Camaro and Vette? How can I find out how the checksum is calculated using my stock bin? Is there a way to bypass this problem and disable checksum? Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 21 20:52:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA24659 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:52:02 -0400 Received: from mail4.lig.bellsouth.net (mail4.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.32]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24656; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:52:01 -0400 Received: from n5xmt (host-209-214-60-107.int.bellsouth.net [209.214.60.107]) by mail4.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11191; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990821204922.00969940@mail.lig.bellsouth.net> X-Sender: n5xmt@mail.lig.bellsouth.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:51:26 -0400 To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Eprom Emulators In-Reply-To: <37BF3C23.42F86EF6@grolen.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990821170209.00979920@mail.lig.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu After much thought and deliberation (And a cool down period!) I must apologize for my language. Also, I'm not going to let one person ruin this list for me or anyone else. When the boards come in, I'll send them out to the appropriate peoples... May have an extra one... I'll just send Mr. New York his money back (In a postal money order so it's traceable...) Thanks, Dave At 07:54 PM 8/21/99 -0400, Shannen Durphey wrote: >David A. Cooley wrote: > > >Sorry to hear this. I'm sure you know there are plenty of "good guys" >on this list. I wasn't involved with the emulators, but I'm sure that >I'd be confident leaving money in your hands. Hope this doesn't leave >so sour a taste that ya leave the list. You've contributed a hell of >a lot, it's a damn shame something like this has to happen. >Shannen =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT@KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 22 09:44:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01460 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:44:40 -0400 Received: from wasp.co.za (IDENT:root@wasp.co.za [196.31.211.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01457 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:44:32 -0400 Received: from nvdwpc (nvdwpc.wasp.co.za [196.31.211.37]) by wasp.co.za (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28580 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:44:16 +0200 Message-Id: <4.1.19990817153357.014f0280@wasp.co.za> X-Sender: nvdw@wasp.co.za X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:47:31 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Nic van der Walt Subject: Newbie question, slightly off topic. In-Reply-To: <199908220900.FAA31773@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi people. I have been lurking around quite a while now, and though my own EFI project won't start seriously for another month or two I have a related question. The scenario is this. I installed a anti-hijack/tracking unit in my car (Audi-EFI). The immobilizer relay (to disable the car in event of an hijack) is connected in series with the booster pumps' fuse, ie when the car is immobilized the main fuel pump will run dry. When this happens what damage will be caused to the engine systems? I'm quite willing to accept an amount of damage in return for recovering my car, and the immobilizer will only be actived with my constent, but knowing what will break would be nice.... ;-) Does anyone know whether the fuel pump is switched off immediately when the engine dies of fuel starvation? Regards, Nic van der Walt South Africa From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 22 16:56:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05779 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:56:11 -0400 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05774 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:56:10 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23001 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id NAA11738 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908222056.NAA11738@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: Newbie question, slightly off topic. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:56:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990817153357.014f0280@wasp.co.za> from "Nic van der Walt" at Aug 17, 99 03:47:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > The scenario is this. I installed a anti-hijack/tracking unit > in my car (Audi-EFI). The immobilizer relay (to disable the car > in event of an hijack) is connected in series with the booster > pumps' fuse, ie when the car is immobilized the main fuel pump > will run dry. > When this happens what damage will be caused to the engine systems? > I'm quite willing to accept an amount of damage in return for recovering > my car, and the immobilizer will only be actived with my constent, > but knowing what will break would be nice.... ;-) > Does anyone know whether the fuel pump is switched off immediately when the > engine dies of fuel starvation? Usually, yes. It's in case of an accident so you don't end up spraying fuel all over the place if a fuel line breaks. The engine stalls, the fuel pump is turned off. Note that overboost protection is achieved in most turbo Audi models by cutting power to the fuel pump (only fuel pump in this case), so I wouldn't expect any problems. Orin. From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 22 17:31:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06299 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:31:24 -0400 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06296 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:31:23 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jSICa06597 (3930) for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:30:46 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #482 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 8/22/99 3:24:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > The scenario is this. I installed a anti-hijack/tracking unit > in my car (Audi-EFI). The immobilizer relay (to disable the car > in event of an hijack) is connected in series with the booster > pumps' fuse, ie when the car is immobilized the main fuel pump > will run dry. I think you are mistaken. The fuel pump won't run dry, but the power to the pump will be cut off. If the power to the pump is cut off, I don't see any danger in damaging the engine. It should stall immediately. If on the other hand the pump were to run dry, it would be like running out of gas. They say running a fuel pump out of gas can cause damage if the pump is allowed to continue running dry, i.e. the ignition key were left on for an extended period of time. Even if that were the case, some systems, I think, will stop the fuel pump if the rpm were 0. If the hijackers have guns, I would hope they get a couple of blocks before the engine stops because they might not be happy with you if you foil their plan. Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 22 19:09:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07398 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:09:41 -0400 Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07395 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:09:40 -0400 Received: from namgbr (slip166-72-252-176.nc.us.ibm.net [166.72.252.176]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA95604 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:09:38 GMT Message-ID: <004c01beecf2$9ba6e740$b0fc48a6@namgbr> From: "Orin Harding" To: Subject: Holley Pro-Jection Bulletin Board Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:03:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEECD1.1388B940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEECD1.1388B940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A bulletin board for Holley Pro-Jection users has been opened at = http://www.autochart.com.=20 Orin ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEECD1.1388B940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A bulletin board for Holley Pro-Jection users has = been opened=20 at http://www.autochart.com.=20
 
Orin
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEECD1.1388B940-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 00:20:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10611 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:20:57 -0400 Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10608 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:20:56 -0400 From: JCsDOOR@aol.com Received: from JCsDOOR@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jHWa023997 (3867) for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <520f219c.24f225f4@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:20:04 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #482 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 8/22/99 7:24:22 PM! First Boot!, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Newbie question, slightly off topic. >> if you are going to disable a pump make it the main pump. Do so by removing ground from pump relay the Eng. will just lean and die if pump goes down. However if you kill the pre pump you may find that your Eng. may not stop. The main pump will probley die as soon as tank gets low, though I have seen them run with the pre pump out for months. Jim crance JCsDOOR@aol.com Colorado springs,CO, From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 01:29:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:29:26 -0400 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA11906; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:29:15 -0400 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id AAA12364; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:29:24 -0500 Received: from aussun1.austin.arm.com(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (4.1) id xma012362; Mon, 23 Aug 99 00:29:04 -0500 Received: from arm.com by aussun1.arm.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA24640; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:28:53 -0500 Message-ID: <37C0DB6B.E30D368F@arm.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:26:03 -0500 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi , efi_332 , "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: out for a week Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'll be in merry old England for a week, so I probably won't be responding to emails about the WWW pages and things. In the meantime you can contact Mr. Gwynne, but please only if it's an emergency. I've unsubscribed from the lists for the duration also. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 06:41:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14749 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:41:55 -0400 Received: from wasp.co.za (IDENT:root@wasp.co.za [196.31.211.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14746 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:41:49 -0400 Received: from nvdwpc (nvdwpc.wasp.co.za [196.31.211.37]) by wasp.co.za (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23848 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:41:40 +0200 Message-Id: <4.1.19990823122038.01718840@wasp.co.za> X-Sender: nvdw@wasp.co.za X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:44:57 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Nic van der Walt Subject: Update on the newbie question... In-Reply-To: <199908230900.FAA13853@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > If the hijackers have guns, I would hope they get a couple of blocks before > the engine stops because they might not be happy with you if you foil their > plan. If he doesn't have a gun I won't unlock the door and get out... Audi has this nice feature in that it locks the doors when you drive off. Perfect for a scatterbrain like me. The unit has a two minute timer from ignition on (if set to automatic) before the cutout activates. If set to manual the central control room has to send the unit a deactivate message to switch the relay. > > However if you kill the pre pump you may find that your Eng. may not stop. > The main pump will probley die as soon as tank gets low, though I have seen > them run with the pre pump out for months. Hmmm. I did pull the fuse while the car was idling (full tank) and it died within 10 seconds. Will the time increase or decrease at say WOT? My feeling would be that it will die sooner rather than later. I suppose a non active fuel pump does a good job of restricting the fuel flow. Anyways, thanks for the replies. I'm glad to hear I won't blow up the engine. Regards, Nic Regards, Nic van der Walt ------------------------------------------------------------ Cellpoint Systems SA http://www.cellpt.co.za GSM Technology for Positioning and Telematics ------------------------------------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 17:52:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26563 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:52:26 -0400 Received: from mail2.lig.bellsouth.net (mail2.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26560 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:52:25 -0400 Received: from n5xmt (host-209-215-4-55.int.bellsouth.net [209.215.4.55]) by mail2.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06051 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990823174950.009707c0@mail.lig.bellsouth.net> X-Sender: n5xmt@mail.lig.bellsouth.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:52:03 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re:Update on the newbie question... In-Reply-To: <199908231900.PAA23547@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu My Explorer autolocks as well... Don't need the disable system... I have a concealed carry permit and on any given day it's a toss up as to whether I'll have my 9mm glock or my .44 Magnum Taurus.... They aren't getting my vehicle. Now if an EEC-V just had an output to pull the trigger for ya... At 03:00 PM 8/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:44:57 +0200 >From: Nic van der Walt >Subject: Update on the newbie question... > > > > > If the hijackers have guns, I would hope they get a couple of blocks > before > > the engine stops because they might not be happy with you if you foil > their > > plan. > > >If he doesn't have a gun I won't unlock the door and get out... Audi has >this nice feature in that it locks the doors when you drive off. Perfect >for a scatterbrain like me. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT@KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 21:18:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28692 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:18:13 -0400 Received: from server.edmi.com.au (elede1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.64.220]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28683 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:17:59 -0400 Received: from christianh (christianh [10.1.1.28]) by server.edmi.com.au (NTMail 3.03.0013/2f.aabt) with ESMTP id la029495 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:38:31 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:38:29 +1000 Message-ID: <01BEED85.EE4FE800.christianh@edmi.com.au> From: Christian Hack To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Newbie question, slightly off topic. Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:38:27 +1000 Organization: EDMI Pty Ltd X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I have been lurking around quite a while now, and though my > own EFI project won't start seriously for another month or > two I have a related question. > > The scenario is this. I installed a anti-hijack/tracking unit > in my car (Audi-EFI). The immobilizer relay (to disable the car > in event of an hijack) is connected in series with the booster > pumps' fuse, ie when the car is immobilized the main fuel pump > will run dry. > > When this happens what damage will be caused to the engine systems? > I'm quite willing to accept an amount of damage in return for recovering > my car, and the immobilizer will only be actived with my constent, > but knowing what will break would be nice.... ;-) > Well I can tell you that standard procedure for my car (an Australian VL Commodore with a Nissan engine) for depressurizing the fuel system is to idle the engine and pull out the fuel pump fuse. You then attempt to start the engine a few times to ensure all the pressure in the fuel system is gone. On my car it stutters and stalls after around 3 seconds and then is quite difficult to even start In a high load situation, not too much damage would occur I would guess. At worst, the engine will run lean (as the fuel pressure drops) for a second or so. Remember that under load a lot more fuel is injected than at idle The other thing that maybe of concern is running the main fuel pump dry. Some pumps rely on the fuel in order to cool them. Running them for too long dry could stuff things. > Does anyone know whether the fuel pump is switched off immediately when the > engine dies of fuel starvation? > In my car the ECU turns off the fuel pump essentially immediately the engine stops/stalls. It will turn the pump back on if/when the engine is cranking again. > Regards, > Nic van der Walt > South Africa > Christian Hack DESIGN ENGINEER christianh@edmi.com.au EDMI Pty Ltd Ph : (07) 3888 3066 FAX : (07) 3888 3583 From diy_efi-owner Mon Aug 23 22:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29292 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:01:57 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA29289 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:01:55 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.121] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11J5uK-0006dLC for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <045a01beedd5$703d6000$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Injector Life. Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:06:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, I think, but I'm not sure if I am having an injector life problem. We'll know better tomorrow when the engine is cold but it seems like after a period of running the injectors will no longer open and close precisely. What happened today was that we ran the engine for about 30 minutes at full load and 5400RPM. Lot's of acceleration/decel etc. O2 sensor was reasonable and we achieved the max RPM expected considering prop load. We then brought the engine back down to an idle and let the temperature stabilize from 205 to 185. After that we turned the engine off. A few hours later, we did some more runs and suddenly found that the engine would barely idle. Pulse widths verses MAP etc. to the injectors were consistent with previous runs and the engine stumbled until about 2000RPM. To me it sounds like one or two stuck injectors because at idle the O2 sensor was off the scale as far as lean mixture was concerned. Pulling a plug from the high power run showed nice colouring and pulling a plug from the rough idle did not show carbon so I am assuming the O2 sensor was correct. Begs the question, what could be up with the injectors. They are stock Honda Injectors for the 1600CC engine, 11.5 Ohms roughly and we use a 7.5 Ohm resistor in series with them because we found that they wouldn't close fast enough to create a 1.25ms pulse which is about all we need at idle. Once we added the resistors in series with each injector we were able to easily get our low and high pulse rates. I don't have data sheets for the injectors used in Honda. Only what the after market information states which is that it's a 141.5 gm injector at 3 bar 11.6 ohms. If that number is the delivery rate at 80% duty cycle then I'm right on the money for fuel usage and timing calculations. If it's the delivery rate for a 100% duty cycle then I'll never get full power at 80% duty cycle but at the moment that's not my problem. Any ideas? Any place on the WEB that has injector specifications? Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 00:55:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA31459 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:55:07 -0400 Received: from slinky.snni.com (jon@slinky.snni.com [204.216.104.250]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA31456 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:55:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (jon@localhost) by slinky.snni.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA10638 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:20:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:20:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jon V." X-Sender: jon@slinky.snni.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Idiot questions from lazy newby In-Reply-To: <199908221900.PAA04326@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, I've been trying to find the answers to these questions myself scanning through the list archive, but frankly there is just too much there for me to read, and if there is a FAQ I'm too wasted to find it... so I'm going to kill everyone's time with my silly questions. Please, feel free to flame me... but if you could throw in at least a token factoid. I appreciate it! :-) What I'm doing... I have an old "performance" car (early '70s, it is really an on POS, but hey, you work with what you've got..) that I play around with. The car has an OK engine, but it is early '70s technology... the most advanced piece of electronics on the thing is... well, the HET point replacement I installed in a BFE parking lot so I could make it home after the distributor started filling with oil every 20 miles. It is a 2L engine and they are pulling about 140HP out of it, but it is capable of a lot more. (Re-carbing alone is said by the engine manufacturer to add about 20HP.) So I am going to "performance enhance" the engine. Actually, the engine has some life left in it and I like driving the car, so I went ahead and bought a second engine (same type) and I'm going to screw *it* up... then when I finally break a timing belt or whatever I'll have a new engine to throw in. Which brings me to the list-relevant parts. I think it'd be pretty snazzy to implement a fuel injection and ignition controller for the old rattletrap... but before I go and get myself sold on the idea, I need a reality check. I had intended to ask a bunch of leading questions at this point, filled with all sorts of "gems" of knowledge to show that I'm really in with the EFI scene, but I decided that since I don't know a my ASS from my EGO and I get weird shrinking feelings when people say things like 'Lambda' I figure I'll take a different approach. Assume that I have an IQ at least 20% higher than this email indicates... no, that's too open... assume that I have an IQ of at least 100. Assume that I know how to do something besides waste everyone's time... say maybe some software development (high level languages, some assembly) experience and a little bit of HW (enough to run screaming), and that I know which end of a wrench the little spinny things hook up to. Assume that I have two FI VW engines just sitting around waiting to sacrifice their existence to the gods of experimentation. A selection of spare computers ranging from 386/33Mhz to Cyrix 6x86 or Alpha 166Mhz that can be reassigned. Familiarity+ with Linux. A selection of basic electronic tools (VOM, Oscilliscope, device programmer, scientific calculator) and an occasional window of access to even better tools (aka real electrical engineers that owe me favors). Assume a fairly modest performance envelope. Redline ~7K, maybe a little higher, naturally aspirated, <9:1 compression. I expect 160HP, if I'm lucky 180HP. I'll need to do a distributorless ignition at the same time. Assume that I am what I sound like, a dirt poor crazyperson. Oh, and if it is no bother, assume that I have the ultimate source of PIC 16C65A OTP PLCC parts... people I work with chew through them like popcorn and the company policy is "engineering begets engineering." IOW they encourage projects.... up to and including the time the one of the EEs fitted flashing LEDs on all the snails he could find around the building... but I digress. Given all of those assumptions, what is the slickest way to get started? I don't like duplicating effort (but I don't want to buy... logically inconsistent) unless I need to... I certainly don't want to need to duplicate basic research. Should I find a junkyard GM computer and work on reprogramming it? Should I jimmy up some IO for a PC motherboard and start with that? My OS preference is Linux these days, but I have worked long enough to know that preference don't mean jack when there is a job to do. What *I'd* like to do is set up a system that uses the PICs as IO controllers... say one PIC per sensor, with all the code to refine the sensor data and bounce it (on a serial bus) to a central processor. IOW there would be a HET sensor on a cam pulley connected to a PIC which abstracts the data into RPM and bounce it out each time Cly #1 is TDC... Set up a sensor/PIC pair for everything (EGO, MAF, CP, TP, RPM, MAT, EGT, ECT, TLA, TLA, LFLA, ETC, ETC.) which just transmits its data based on some sensor specific criteria (the RPM might be sent each time the engine is TDC, the EGO every 10th of a second, TPS whenever it changes) to a central computer which can log the data, and control the injectors, ignition, etc. The extended idea is that because everything is bussed together you could have actuator/PIC pairs (e.g. an injector) that act a lot like the sensors. For example, the CPU configures each injector with timing information (MS from TDC to open, MS from TDC to close) and a common sync pulse (engine TDC) is constantly issued. At that point if the CPU got behind for a few revs the engine would just sort of "hold" until things were caught up. The stretched idea is that everything is really bussed together, and the sensors just share their data, and the actuators just take the data and act on it... and the CPU just oversees the process and makes sure that everybody is talking. See, now that's exactly what I said I wasn't going to do... damn these fingers. All of that is, as you are saying to yourself, sky high dreaming, and I agree, I should pull my head out, but it has been lodged in there for so long that my spine has set. Whatever I do, I'd like it to be educational, but not in the bad way that people mean when they say "it was educational". I want to be educational AND work. It doesn't have to work the first time, but it needs to do better than the carbs someday. I don't really want to buy a ready built solution... both because it seems like a waste of a good hobby project, and because if this works I've got several other engines ranging from a 700+ CID industrial/truck engine to 1100CC motorcycle engine that I'd like to look at too. So, can anyone politely ignore the utopian "all the little computers working together" part and tell me how much a project like this is going to cost, and will it work better than carbs? FWIW, recarbing with the "performance" carbs would probably cost about $900. TIA -Jon The eagle may soar, but the weasel never gets sucked into a jet engine. From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 02:25:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA32180 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:25:46 -0400 Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA32177 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:25:45 -0400 From: Fisystems@aol.com Received: from Fisystems@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jXXUa20497 (4009) for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:25:08 EDT Subject: Help With Diacom-p To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I can't seem to find a Vin # to link Diacom-p to a 93 Vette 9280 ECM. Will Diacom-p work on a 93 Vette ECM? Ken Murillo fisystems@aol.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 08:36:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03198 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:36:29 -0400 Received: from etcsh01.etcusa.com ([146.145.136.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03195 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:36:28 -0400 Received: by etcsh01.etcusa.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <30W9M18V>; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:35:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Jensen, Mike" To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: lean & rich Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:35:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This may sound like a very silly question, but when it is said that an engine is running lean it means that it is getting excess air for the amount of fuel that it is getting , and vice versa for a rich burning engine (excess fuel for the amount of air that it is getting) Michael H. Jensen Mechanical Designer Environmental Tectonics Corp. 125 Jamesway Southampton Pa. 18966 Phone (215) 355-9100 Ext. 276 Email mjensen@etcusa.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 10:56:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05318 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:56:34 -0400 Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05315 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:56:33 -0400 From: Mikepoore@aol.com Received: from Mikepoore@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jVAYa22755 (4113) for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <501f9e0d.24f40c79@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:53 EDT Subject: Prom Carriers To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Is anyone interested in buying some 24 or 26 pin prom carriers for gm ecms? Mike Poore From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 15:38:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09902 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:38:03 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA09899 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:38:01 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.51] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11JMOK-0006e0C for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <04a501beee68$f91e8910$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Wide range O2 sensor. Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:43:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, In a previous post someone mentioned that the stock O2 sensors have a very narrow band for mixture tuning and that to get an O2 sensor that had a broader window would be very expensive. Ok. Where do I go to buy such an O2 sensor? What's the part number? Is it possible to get a datasheet on the device? Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 17:51:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12081 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:51:54 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12078 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:51:53 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:52:40 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.12] by grolen.com id 8e5d2.wrk; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:51:00 EDT Message-ID: <37C313BB.DBF5A146@grolen.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:50:51 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: lean and rich References: <199908241900.PAA09228@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike Jensen wrote > > DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, August 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 486 > > In this issue: > > lean & rich > Prom Carriers > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:35:57 -0400 > From: "Jensen, Mike" > Subject: lean & rich > > This may sound like a very silly question, but when it is said that an > engine is running lean it means that it is getting excess air for the > amount of fuel that it is getting , and vice versa for a rich burning > engine (excess fuel for the amount of air that it is getting) Yes. Lean and rich are relative terms. Lean can mean "so much air that the mixture won't burn" or "just enough extra air to melt a piston". 14.7:1 air:gasoline ratio provides most complete combustion. Lean and rich increase and decrease the amount of air from there, respectively. Shannen > > Michael H. Jensen > Mechanical Designer > Environmental Tectonics Corp. > 125 Jamesway > Southampton Pa. 18966 > Phone (215) 355-9100 Ext. 276 > Email mjensen@etcusa.com > > ------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 17:52:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12098 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:52:59 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12095 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:52:58 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:53:45 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.12] by grolen.com id 8e820.wrk; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:52:04 EDT Message-ID: <37C313FC.41923892@grolen.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:51:56 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Prom Carriers References: <199908241900.PAA09228@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike Poore wrote: > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:53 EDT > From: Mikepoore@aol.com > Subject: Prom Carriers > > Is anyone interested in buying some 24 or 26 pin prom carriers for gm ecms? > > Mike Poore > Are you selling or looking for a co-purchaser? Shannen From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 19:19:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12667 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:19:36 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA12664 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:19:35 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.120] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11JPGq-0006epC for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <04b201beee82$be2b9900$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: re: lean & rich Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:47:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Your are right but actually, I look at it the other way around. When an engine is running lean I think of it as not enough fuel for the amount of air that the engine is getting and when running rich it's getting too much fuel for the amount of air that it's getting. I see it easier this way because unless I control the throttle plate too, the only phyisical control I have over the engine is the amount of fuel I deliver through the injectors. If it runs rich I am providing too much fuel, not too little air. Regards, John >Subject: lean & rich > >This may sound like a very silly question, but when it is said that an >engine is running lean it means that it is getting excess air for the >amount of fuel that it is getting , and vice versa for a rich burning >engine (excess fuel for the amount of air that it is getting) > >Michael H. Jensen From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 21:33:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14463 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:33:10 -0400 Received: from comet.connix.com (root@comet.connix.com [198.69.10.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14460 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:33:09 -0400 Received: from connix.com (17.ct7.dyn.connix.net [209.66.145.24]) by comet.connix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02854 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37C3485B.D1FE5C57@connix.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:35:26 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Organization: ww.connix.com/~bshaw/william.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot questions from lazy newby References: <199908240900.FAA01030@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I don't think you said what type of car it is, but I think I'd start by finding it's mid 80s to early 90s closest equivalent in a junkyard and scavenge the intake, throttle body, sensors, wiring harness, computer, air cleaner, plumbing, and anything else that may look interesting. That can usually give you a real good head start. I was lucky enough to connect with a guy who was parting out a FI Spider. You can see it at http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiatefi.html. If you want to get real fancy, you might also take a look in the efi-232 list, it looks like they're starting a group buy on the new EFI-232 board. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Shaw '78 FI Spider (Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- From diy_efi-owner Tue Aug 24 23:32:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16089 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:32:06 -0400 Received: from huxch1z.zurich.com.au (firewall-user@huxch1z.zurich.com.au [202.20.70.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16086 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:32:01 -0400 From: Wayne.MacDonald@zurich.com.au Received: by huxch1z.zurich.com.au; id NAA24660; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:31:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from huxch2z.zurich.com.au(192.168.1.27) by huxch1z.zurich.com.au via smap (4.1) id xma024644; Wed, 25 Aug 99 13:31:48 +1000 Received: from auznss01.zurich.com.au (auznss01.zurich.com.au [192.168.2.15]) by huxch2z.zurich.com.au with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA16523 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:31:42 +1000 (EST) Received: by auznss01.zurich.com.au(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 4A2567D8.00135238 ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:31:02 +1000 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ZURICH To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <4A2567D8.00134C80.00@auznss01.zurich.com.au> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:31:05 +1000 Subject: Learn to drive people!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am sure I am not the only one having trouble wading through the re-posted-posted-posted stuff, Take the time to cut out only the piece you are sending the reply to and put a relevant subject, RE: Digest #999 means nothing to me. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 09:07:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22430 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:07:12 -0400 Received: from mailrelay4.sni.net (mailrelay4.sni.net [199.117.160.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22426 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:07:11 -0400 Received: from [204.132.128.1] (p1.Steamboat.dialup.csn.net [204.132.128.1]) by mailrelay4.sni.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14040 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:07:09 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@lynx.sni.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:06:53 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@sni.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #487 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >In a previous post someone mentioned that the stock O2 sensors have a >very narrow band for mixture tuning and that to get an O2 sensor that >had a broader window would be very expensive. > >Ok. Where do I go to buy such an O2 sensor? What's the part number? >Is it possible to get a datasheet on the device? > >Thanks, > >John > You need a controller as well as the sensor. Try doing a word search on in the archives for a starter. A regular O2 sensor should not be regarded as anything more than a switch that tells you rich or lean! A sensor for a '93 to '95 Honda VTEC will be the right sensor for a lot less money than anywhere else, (about $110, Jobber) but that does not solve the controller problem. Greg From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 09:50:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23048 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:50:02 -0400 Received: from cyberlynk.com (cyberlynk.com [207.104.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23043 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:50:00 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cyberlynk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25913 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:53:12 -0700 Received: from UNKNOWN(207.104.52.70), claiming to be "ppp470mer.cyberlynk.com" via SMTP by cyberlynk.com, id smtpda25909; Wed Aug 25 06:53:08 1999 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Wide range O2 sensor Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:55:36 -0700 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <3880f3b7.59345800@mail.cyberlynk.com> References: <199908250900.FAA19993@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199908250900.FAA19993@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id JAA23046 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:43:07 -0700 "John Dammeyer" wrote: >In a previous post someone mentioned that the stock O2 sensors have a >very narrow band for mixture tuning and that to get an O2 sensor that >had a broader window would be very expensive. > >Ok. Where do I go to buy such an O2 sensor? What's the part number? >Is it possible to get a datasheet on the device? Search the archives using the following keys: UEGO, [wideband, wide-band, or "wide band"], EGOR, NTK, Horiba, etc.. WAY too much water over the damn to regurgitate it here. And it's NOT so simple as just "buying a part", as you'll see. Personally, I'd start with EGOR, but that's just me. :) Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 10:27:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23598 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:27:21 -0400 Received: from oxe.cs.umu.se (root@oxe.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23595 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:27:20 -0400 Received: from peppar.cs.umu.se (rfc1413 says c95fsg@peppar.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.13]) by oxe.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09920 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:27:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (rfc1413 says c95fsg@localhost) by peppar.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18578 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:27:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: peppar.cs.umu.se: c95fsg owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:27:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Igniton coils In-Reply-To: <199908181900.PAA06838@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi! Can someone please enlighten me in how to decide how much current I can put into my coil. I have a coil from a Alfa Romeo 155 and it is of the waste-spark type. It has a primary resistance of 0.9 ohms. I think I have wasted one coil already due to my lack of knowledge. I just pumped 12 volts into it and it sparked a few times but then went dead. I have one more but I don't want to kill this one too. Do I have to know what voltage the Alfa puts into the coil to know this or can I calculate/guess what it is in some way? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanx! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@cs.umu.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 13:35:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26339 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:35:11 -0400 Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26333 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:35:05 -0400 Received: from cen16176 (ppp108.av.centuryinter.net [209.142.163.139]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19766 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:34:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990825123452.006a5da0@mail.ot.centuryinter.net> X-Sender: cen16176@mail.ot.centuryinter.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:34:52 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Clarence Wood Subject: Off Topic 1960 Thunderbird Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, sorry for the off topic mail but I need some advice: I have found a 1960 Thunderbird in excellent shape, original engine. Where can I go to find out the value of this car? Thanks and please reply to me off list. 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood@centuryinter.net Savannah, TN. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 15:06:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27312 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:06:53 -0400 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27309 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:06:52 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11758 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id MAA15934 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908251906.MAA15934@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: Wide range O2 sensor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3880f3b7.59345800@mail.cyberlynk.com> from "Gar Willis" at Aug 25, 99 06:55:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Personally, I'd start with EGOR, but that's just me. :) Speaking of EGOR, is he ready yet? Orin. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 17:49:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA29884 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:49:12 -0400 Received: from slinky.snni.com (jon@slinky.snni.com [204.216.104.250]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29880 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:49:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (jon@localhost) by slinky.snni.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA12434 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:15:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jon V." X-Sender: jon@slinky.snni.com To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby In-Reply-To: <199908250900.FAA19993@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bill Shaw Wrote: > I don't think you said what type of car it is, Groan... I figured that would rear its ugly head! You are quite right, I didn't say... because I didn't want to be laughed out before I was ever in, and even I have a certain amount of pride. No, I don't think I'm going to let you people do that to me. The car is my business, thank you very much. The engine... oh, screw it. You people will laugh at me anyway, so I might as well... The engine is a Lotus 907E. Basically it is your textbook modern econobanger, except it came from England, so it doesn't work most of the time. Canted, DOCH, 16V, 2L, redline somewhere around peak HP... a nice little engine if you don't mind the little things like needing to break your wrists to reach the distributor. Looking through the list archives I notice at least one other person was interested in EFI for it, but I think he was buying an aftermarket system. It has a pair of nifty thingimawhatsit carbs... a rather snazzy design if you are into such things, sort of a MAP sensor and throttle body with mechanical feedback system to balance the air flow against fuel flow. You don't actually control the throttle, you richen the mixture, and it regulates based on MAP... at least that's how I understand the damn things. They were designed for emissions. Anyway, they are British, and I don't need to tell any of you what that means. > ... but I think I'd start by finding it's > mid 80s to early 90s closest equivalent in a junkyard and scavenge the intake, > throttle body, sensors, wiring harness, computer, air cleaner, plumbing, and anything > else that may look interesting. The only EFI versions I know of are either aftermarket (TEC-II) or I-don't-want-to-think-about-it expensive, and they aren't likely to turn up in a junk yard either way, which leaves me fitting some other engine's EFI. That is not such a bad idea, either. I bet the EFI system from a modern GM fourhole would work fairly well... but I am way too ignorant to know what to look for right now or what my own limits are. > That can usually give you a real good head start. I need any sort of start I can get... and head starts are the best... that way I have a chance to maybe finish inside the pack. Hey! I did say *maybe*... > I > was lucky enough to connect with a guy who was parting out a FI Spider. You can see it > at http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiatefi.html. Sweet car... very true-blue... and it even has a stereo! Mine doesn't have that... now I'm jealous. Sigh. I bet my car won't look 1/2 as good as yours when I am done... but bugged out coworkers (who are getting very nervous right now) as my witness, I *will* have a car that looks 1/2 as good. It will even have sun visors and (gasp) a top... someday. Right now I am content to have the wind in my hair, the sun on my face, and purr of a leaky exhaust system to keep me company as I wind my lonesome way home. And, of course, an extra engine waiting there, beckoning me to my doom. > If you want to get real fancy, you might also take a look in the efi-232 list, it > looks like they're starting a group buy on the new EFI-232 board. I'm planning on checking it out, but I'm still too ignorant to know what I'm looking at... or how much it will cost. Cost is still important to me. Thanks, -Jon Sex without class consciousness cannot give satisfaction, even if it is repeated until infinity. -- Aldo Brandirali (Secretary of the Italian Marxist-Leninist Party), in a manual of the party's official sex guidelines, 1973. From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 18:16:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA30300 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:16:56 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA30297 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:16:54 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.160] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11JlLe-0006d1C for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <04fe01beef48$578859b0$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Ignition Coils. Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:21:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I ran into the same problem when we started using the FORD Quad Coil except I figured out that at 12V the amount of current was unreasonable so I didn't bother destroying the coil. You have several alternatives: More than likely the coil is used with some sort of Capacitive Discharge circuit or else a current limiter. Current limiting is useful because the low resistance and high inductance allows a very short dwell time; the time the current is building up and flowing in the coil. Then when the current flow is stopped (points open), the magnetic field collapses and the back EMF is often 20 times as high as the forward current was and it's this back EMF that is stepped up by the priamary:secondary turns ratio to be the 20KV+. You could probably work with 8 to 10 amps and not destroy the coil. To do this you need a small load resistor in series with the coil to generate a voltage proportional to the current. This is use as part of the feed back through either a comparator or amplifier to then limit and hold the current at a preset value. There is a circuit in Ed Lansinger's article in #63 October 1995 Circuit Cellar Ink. Alternatively you can go capacitor discharge. This is far more complicated and there are a number of different ways to do this. The most common is a high frequency oscillator that chops the 12V DC and creates a square wave that is stepped up through a transformer to produce 200V to 400V which charges a capacitor. The amount of current delivered by this power supply at 400V must enough to charge the capacitor within the time from discharging it the last time to when it needs to be discharged again; for a 4 cylinder engine this is 180 crank degrees at max RPM. Once the ignition point is reached in the engine cycle an SCR or TRIAC or ALTERNISTER is used to discharge the capacitor into the ignition coil. The advantage of a CD ignition is that it usually isn't dependant on battery voltage. There are some other ways to generate the high voltage but in each case the transformer/inductor design is the difficult part. Regards, John >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:27:16 +0200 (MET DST) >From: Fredrik Skog >Subject: Igniton coils > >Hi! > >Can someone please enlighten me in how to decide how much current I can >put into my coil. I have a coil from a Alfa Romeo 155 and it is of the >waste-spark type. It has a primary resistance of 0.9 ohms. >I think I have wasted one coil already due to my lack of knowledge. I just >pumped 12 volts into it and it sparked a few times but then went dead. >I have one more but I don't want to kill this one too. >Do I have to know what voltage the Alfa puts into the coil to know this or >can I calculate/guess what it is in some way? > >Any help is greatly appreciated. > >Thanx! From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 21:13:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA32423 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:13:47 -0400 Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32420 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:13:46 -0400 Received: from v6v1j4 (qrvl-67ppp89.epix.net [199.224.67.89]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999072601/PL) with SMTP id VAA26503 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000e01beef60$628c18c0$5943e0c7@v6v1j4> From: "crash70" To: Subject: Integrating Saab (bosch LH) and VW knock sensing ignition Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:14:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm a new guy here, so forgive my ignorance. In an effort to provide myself with a low-cost fuel injection system, I am attempting to fit an LH system from a 1986 Saab 900 2.1L 16v (non-turbo) onto a 2.0 16v VW engine. I have a complete CIS-E setup, but I don't like the restriction of the meter plate. Next to a MAP sensor, a hot-wire sensor seems to be the least intrusive method of measuring an engine's incoming air. Also, I plan to supercharge the engine later. I have all the components necessary to build this system. I have obtained a schematic of the fuel injection system, and came across one problem. I'm not sure if I can use my VW knock-sensing ignition with the Saab ECU. My main question is, will the pulse signal from the VW hall unit be ineffective to my ECU? The Saab ignition uses a pulse amplifier. According to the schematic, the input signal ranges from 6.5 to 8v. I hope somebody has some experience in this department to help me out. Once I finish the harness, I plan to "bench test" the system by mounting the hot wire sensor on my car (in-line with the CIS system) and installing the coolant sensor and ignition (if it can be done--hopefully somebody will advise me on this). Then, I'll check for proper injector duty cycle operation with my DMM. Once I get the system up and running, the parameters will be changed as necessary on the EPROM. I'm assuming the parameters will be in the ballpark, since the Saab engine is so close in displacement and volumetric effieciency as the VW motor. Any advice/comments/criticisms/thoughts/etc. are welcomed. Thanks! Chris Bishop From diy_efi-owner Wed Aug 25 22:10:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00685 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:10:45 -0400 Received: from teapot25.domain0.bigpond.com (teapot25.domain0.bigpond.com [139.134.5.173]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00680 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:10:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by teapot25.domain0.bigpond.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ca639238 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:07:55 +1000 Received: from DC-57-82.bpb.bigpond.com ([203.40.57.82]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Hand-crafted-MailRouter V2.4d 13/1064263); 26 Aug 1999 12:07:53 Message-ID: <37C4A2E6.7609@mhpower.com.au> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:13:58 +1000 From: Dave - M+H Melbourne Organization: M+H Power Systems Pty Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: VW intake Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, Does anyone want to buy mild-steel or aluminium (CNC laser cut) VW head (intake) flanges for making EFI/carb manifolds? I am doing a run soon (Type One and Four) - email me directly OFF LIST if you are interested. Yours EFI'ly, Dave -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ + M+H Power Systems Pty Ltd AUSTRALIA + + Batteries: Gel/AGM/NiCd/Wet Ph: +61 3 9763 0555 + + Chargers DC-DC Converters Fax: +61 3 9763 0577 + + UPS Battery Testers http://www.mhpower.com.au + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 07:37:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06473 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:37:55 -0400 Received: from cyberlynk.com (cyberlynk.com [207.104.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06468 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:37:52 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cyberlynk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA12809 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 04:41:27 -0700 Received: from UNKNOWN(207.104.52.51), claiming to be "ppp451mer.cyberlynk.com" via SMTP by cyberlynk.com, id smtpda12805; Thu Aug 26 04:41:17 1999 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Wide range O2 sensor Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:42:33 -0700 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <37cf3272.28523225@mail.cyberlynk.com> References: <199908260900.FAA05198@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199908260900.FAA05198@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id HAA06469 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Orin Eman wrote: >Speaking of EGOR, is he ready yet? > >Orin. If he was, you'da heard about it right here onlist. All we're saying, either public or private, is "soon". Please yous guys don't be asking me via private email for any inside scoop; it ain't gonna happen that way. All product announcements, schedules, pricing, etc. will be POSTED here onlist. NO stealth info will be given out via private email. After EGOR is announced, there will be a private list called "EIOsig" (the sig stands for 'special interest group') clients will be joined on to automatically (unless you wish not to be), for support and continued tech discussion. Hey, if yous guys'll agree to the charter and stick to EFI topics, you can depart this digest crap (nuthin personal, Orin :) and expand the topics beyond EGOR and ION to general EFI. But JUST EFI, thank you, and NO chat-monkey's like that "!!" guy, OK? :) Gar From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 07:47:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06568 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:47:42 -0400 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06563 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:47:40 -0400 Received: from cruzers.com (surf50.cruzers.com [205.215.232.50]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00657 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37C53705.F696061C@cruzers.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 04:46:19 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: 1226870's and eprom UPDATE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike Poore wrote: > I successfully copied my stock prom to a new eprom without a hitch. If I > change one parameter it won't work correctly. The ses light flickers. Someone > mentioned a problem with the checksum. > > Is there a difference between the checksums for a TPI Camaro and Vette? The checksum will change with any change in the EPROM. If the Camaro and Vette have different data, the checksum will likely be different too. > How can I find out how the checksum is calculated using my stock bin? For the 6870, the first two bytes of the EPROM contain the 16 bit (big endien) sum of all the other bytes. > Is there a way to bypass this problem and disable checksum? Changing location 5 from $1F to $AA, will probably disable checking of the checksum. This is sometimes called experimental mode. I don't like it because it leaves no way to know if the data has been corrupted. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 10:24:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08733 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:24:00 -0400 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08730 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:23:58 -0400 From: neilaura@accessworldnet.com Received: from desktop (dialup-172.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.172]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA32176 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:23:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990826072627.00695ec0@mail.accessworldnet.com> X-Sender: neilaura@mail.accessworldnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:26:29 -0700 To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby Bill Shaw Wrote: > I don't think you said what type of car it is, Groan... I figured that would rear its ugly head! You are quite right, I didn't say... because I didn't want to be laughed out before I was ever in, and even I have a certain amount of pride. No, I don't think I'm going to let you people do that to me. The car is my business, thank you very much. The engine... oh, screw it. You people will laugh at me anyway, so I might as well... The engine is a Lotus 907E. Just to put the record straight, Lotus used the bottom end of exsisting production engines and used their own heads and cams. In the case of your engine, it was the Ford (you have my sympathy). But take some consolation, the other option was the French Renault. Basically it is your textbook modern econobanger, except it came from England, so it doesn't work most of the time. Canted, DOCH, 16V, 2L, redline somewhere around peak HP... a nice little engine if you don't mind the little things like needing to break your wrists to reach the distributor. Looking through the list archives I notice at least one other person was interested in EFI for it, but I think he was buying an aftermarket system. It has a pair of nifty thingimawhatsit carbs... a rather snazzy design if you are into such things, sort of a MAP sensor and throttle body with mechanical feedback system to balance the air flow against fuel flow. You don't actually control the throttle, you richen the mixture, and it regulates based on MAP... at least that's how I understand the damn things. They were designed for emissions. Anyway, they are British, and I don't need to tell any of you what that means. I'm British, please explain what it means. Neil From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 16:31:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14519 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:31:06 -0400 Received: from cecom6.monmouth.army.mil (cecom6.monmouth.army.mil [134.80.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14514 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:31:03 -0400 Received: from swgm6.monmouth.army.mil ([134.80.0.70]) by cecom6.monmouth.army.mil (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10415 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by SWGM6 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:31:02 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Flanagan, Stephen" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Wide range 02 sensor Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:31:02 -0400 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar Is there a web site for the company that is backing the EGOR so we can take a look at other products they have that might be of interest? thanks sf -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 3:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #490 DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, August 26 1999 Volume 04 : Number 490 In this issue: Wide range O2 sensor Re: 1226870's and eprom UPDATE Mime-Version: 1.0 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:42:33 -0700 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Subject: Wide range O2 sensor On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Orin Eman wrote: >Speaking of EGOR, is he ready yet? > >Orin. If he was, you'da heard about it right here onlist. All we're saying, either public or private, is "soon". Please yous guys don't be asking me via private email for any inside scoop; it ain't gonna happen that way. All product announcements, schedules, pricing, etc. will be POSTED here onlist. NO stealth info will be given out via private email. After EGOR is announced, there will be a private list called "EIOsig" (the sig stands for 'special interest group') clients will be joined on to automatically (unless you wish not to be), for support and continued tech discussion. Hey, if yous guys'll agree to the charter and stick to EFI topics, you can depart this digest crap (nuthin personal, Orin :) and expand the topics beyond EGOR and ION to general EFI. But JUST EFI, thank you, and NO chat-monkey's like that "!!" guy, OK? :) Gar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 04:46:19 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: Re: 1226870's and eprom UPDATE Mike Poore wrote: > I successfully copied my stock prom to a new eprom without a hitch. If I > change one parameter it won't work correctly. The ses light flickers. Someone > mentioned a problem with the checksum. > > Is there a difference between the checksums for a TPI Camaro and Vette? The checksum will change with any change in the EPROM. If the Camaro and Vette have different data, the checksum will likely be different too. > How can I find out how the checksum is calculated using my stock bin? For the 6870, the first two bytes of the EPROM contain the 16 bit (big endien) sum of all the other bytes. > Is there a way to bypass this problem and disable checksum? Changing location 5 from $1F to $AA, will probably disable checking of the checksum. This is sometimes called experimental mode. I don't like it because it leaves no way to know if the data has been corrupted. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:26:29 -0700 From: neilaura@accessworldnet.com Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby Bill Shaw Wrote: > I don't think you said what type of car it is, Groan... I figured that would rear its ugly head! You are quite right, I didn't say... because I didn't want to be laughed out before I was ever in, and even I have a certain amount of pride. No, I don't think I'm going to let you people do that to me. The car is my business, thank you very much. The engine... oh, screw it. You people will laugh at me anyway, so I might as well... The engine is a Lotus 907E. Just to put the record straight, Lotus used the bottom end of exsisting production engines and used their own heads and cams. In the case of your engine, it was the Ford (you have my sympathy). But take some consolation, the other option was the French Renault. Basically it is your textbook modern econobanger, except it came from England, so it doesn't work most of the time. Canted, DOCH, 16V, 2L, redline somewhere around peak HP... a nice little engine if you don't mind the little things like needing to break your wrists to reach the distributor. Looking through the list archives I notice at least one other person was interested in EFI for it, but I think he was buying an aftermarket system. It has a pair of nifty thingimawhatsit carbs... a rather snazzy design if you are into such things, sort of a MAP sensor and throttle body with mechanical feedback system to balance the air flow against fuel flow. You don't actually control the throttle, you richen the mixture, and it regulates based on MAP... at least that's how I understand the damn things. They were designed for emissions. Anyway, they are British, and I don't need to tell any of you what that means. I'm British, please explain what it means. Neil ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #490 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 17:28:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15705 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:28:05 -0400 Received: from slinky.snni.com (jon@slinky.snni.com [204.216.104.250]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15702 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:28:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (jon@localhost) by slinky.snni.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA24889 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:54:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jon V." X-Sender: jon@slinky.snni.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby In-Reply-To: <199908261900.PAA12877@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Niel wrote: >"Jon" Wrote: >> Anyway, they are British, and I don't need to tell any of you what that >> means. > > I'm British, please explain what it means. Catching hell already. British technology means... A clever idea, Lucased. Now, don't get me wrong, if I hated all things UKish, I wouldn't burned the car within 500 miles of buying it... I think it is a bloody fine tribute to my phenomenal patience that the car doesn't have "Bring back the V2" stickers all over it at this point. I am joking! Jeeze, tough crowd... Hell, I just celebrated a unique event in my ownership of the car... 500 miles of driving and only stranded once! It was special enough that I emailed several friends... I mean, it was BIG! An absolute first. What makes it doubly special is that the failure was actually *cheap to fix*... all it was was the muffler coming unglued, and $10 later the damn thing was welded together almost perfectly except that one of the resonator chambers had ground a hole in itself from when it hit the pavement at 70MPH (hence the leaky exhaust). This weekend I'll pull the damaged section and get'er fixed up proper... but I'm missing my own point here. 500 miles, and only stranded once! That is damned special. The first 2500 miles I drove that car (I bought it used) I must have had 20 major failures (y'know, brakes feel fine, until you reach the stoplight and then phssss down to the floor they go... stuff like that) in 20 major systems... I didn't think cars like this HAD 20 major systems. I've owned the car for a year and a half now, and I've driven it less than 4500 miles. Compare that to my '97 S10 that just passed 74K miles. So if yer gonna bust my balls, do it for the fact that my description of how those damned carbs work was totally wrong. Well, it was part right, except that it isn't, and the fuel regulates on the vacuum which is passed to the diaphragm through an inside butterfly, which isn't much different than what I said except that I was totally wrong. I had to figure all of this out myself after I posted it just so I wouldn't feel good about myself last night. Hey! WAKE UP! Yeah, you... damn, but it is hard to keep people paying attention all the way to the end of these emails. Anyway, I've had a couple of very interesting responses, and I've insulted an entire country, but I still don't have a clue... ...about what something like this typically costs. Am I looking at 225 UKP, 1600.00 HKD, 5.000 DM, or what? TIA, Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A eleven thousand lemmings can't be wrong! From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 17:35:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15927 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:35:29 -0400 Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15923 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:35:28 -0400 From: JECFL98@aol.com Received: from JECFL98@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jTJNa01989 (4242) for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2f28e305.24f70d00@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:34:56 EDT Subject: Chrysler ECM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am looking for information about the mid 80's chrysler EFI system, I am intrested in reprograming eeproms and how to read the serial data with a PC. I have seen sites for Ford and GM, but haven't seen one for Chrysler yet. Ed From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 17:52:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16152 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:52:59 -0400 Received: from infobahn.icubed.com (infobahn.icubed.com [208.0.145.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16149; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:52:58 -0400 Received: from mich.com (pgh031.icubed.com [208.157.20.31]) by infobahn.icubed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32675; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37C5B736.2457A1D6@mich.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:52:54 -0400 From: Scott Knight X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GMECM , DIYEFI Subject: Peak and hold conversion (crossposted) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I spent some time reading through the 332 and DIY archives today looking for anyone that has converted to P-H drivers. Obviously it would be nice to integrate the conversion right into the existing board, but that looks impossible now that I see the driver ICs. Actually having an interface box might be useful so that others could use it for their high performance LTx engines without having to hack the PCM extensively. Since I have no EE background, I am a little crippled with respect to some of the discussion, but did see something interesting. Someone mentioned building a P-H drivers and putting them inline with the injectors to adapt P-H to a non P-H controller. Is anyone doing this or is it just 'one of those ideas' that sounded good, but not really worthwhile. I would really like to get started on figuring out how to run the P-H injectors with my P6 PCM, but am not sure where to start. -- Scott Knight mailto:sknight@mich.com http://www.mich.com/~sknight IRC:SS396man '95 Black Impala SS '94 Ducati 900SS CR From diy_efi-owner Thu Aug 26 20:49:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA18100 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:49:49 -0400 Received: from comet.connix.com (root@comet.connix.com [198.69.10.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18097 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:49:48 -0400 Received: from connix.com (67.ct7.dyn.connix.net [209.66.145.74]) by comet.connix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27628 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37C5E13D.D79A3B02@connix.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:53:02 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Organization: ww.connix.com/~bshaw/william.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby References: <199908261900.PAA12877@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > The engine... oh, screw it. You people will laugh at me anyway, so I > might as well... The engine is a Lotus 907E. Hey, they didn't laugh at my Spider (not out loud anyway), so I doubt they'll laugh at a Lotus. Worst case you'll have to put up with some good natured 'Brit' comments. At least you don't have to listen to the "Fix It Again Tony" cracks :-) > > Just to put the record straight, Lotus used the bottom end of exsisting > production engines and used their own heads and cams. In the case of your > engine, it was the Ford (you have my sympathy). But take some consolation, > the other option was the French Renault. If it's a Ford 2L block you should be able to find all the parts you need without much searching. I think I might start by scrounging an intake from a 2L Mustang, or maybe just buying an intake gasket, to see how things line up. Bill From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 00:46:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA20891 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:46:18 -0400 Received: from pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca (pumpkin.bcit.ca [142.232.189.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20888 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:46:16 -0400 Received: by pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 882567DA.001A2FC4 ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:46:01 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: BCITMAIN From: "Peter Fenske" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <882567DA.001A2ED4.00@pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:45:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Hyundai Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Howday all Hope you fellows can help. Co-worker has 90 Hyundai. Kar has bad habit of suddenly stopping. No stuttering, mifiring or nothing but drop dead instantly.. Restarts instantly too.. This would appear to be electrical. Has anyone run into the prob.. Engine is PFI rather neat actually.. Ps would anyone know where to get a ecu for this kay Thank much:peter Hope you understand nothin's dear and inexpensive From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 01:03:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21251 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:03:53 -0400 Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21248 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:03:52 -0400 Received: from ms01-317.vcr.istar.ca ([137.186.177.63] helo=i-star) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11KEB4-0000tb-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:03:50 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990826220610.00c1a620@istar.ca> X-Sender: zxv@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:13:27 -0700 To: "kv@us.ibm.com" From: Ross Corrigan Subject: help! valve retainer/keeper welded?? sbc how to separate? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not EFI but I"ve exhausted my 5 other lists on chevy's etc and have always gotten great info here so please tolerate my NC. Here's my EFI content, a spare car is coming my way so I should finally be able to build my stout sb replacement and setup my 4Di finally to enjoy the EFI benefits. Now onto my problem... Just to update since I didn't run the original q's past this list, tranny problems w/ my 700R4 led to some missed shifts and 7000rpm a few times this last Sun. night. A hardened pushrod went thru my #2 intake stamped steel rocker arm on my edelbrock performer rpm heads. ******************* question here **************** Just to update for this question, some of my valve spring shims got sheared during some valve float lately so I'm trying to R&R them all. I only got one done easily before I got stuck and bought a dead blow hammer on reccomendation....... > Ross, > Use the dead blow but carefully. A small wack is all it should take. well it hasn't turned out that way... as mentioned I R&R'd the spring shims under #2 intake fairly easily and #2 exhaust wouldn't come apart, I hit it gently and then w/ more force side/side and on the top, then placed 5 shims on top of the retainer (to distribute the downforce of the compressor jaws) and hit on the top of the valve compressor tool itself, pushing the valve down in shots etc........no dice whatsoever, I even oiled it just in case (the keepers/retainer) so v. annoyed and hot/tired I figure lets see if #2E is an oddity or the norm, #4Intake goes v. easily and then #4E is same as #2E, do these exhaust ones get welded together??? FWIW, the #4Intake I replaced the valve spring shims on: the top shim was worn right thru in one spot but no sign of any pieces being sheared out. THis is probably the magnetic 'dust' I've gotten in my heads for a while I'd guess. So I'd really like to R&R all these valve spring shims but am at a loss as to how to separate the keepers/retainers on the two exhaust valves encountered so far!!! (and probably the rest) Please someone have an easy timely solution for me.....any hope that heating it would help (probably a huge no-no I assume)??? I do have a small tiger torch and a pen torch???? Or icing it??? I lose my rental car tomorrow night. Oh yeah, the good news is my oil drained w/o a smidge of metal on the drain magnet so that was the good part of this eve. thanks in advance ..... Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 05:53:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23971 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:53:21 -0400 Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23968 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:53:18 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jPSLa13741 (4333) for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <74117b88.24f7b9db@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:52:27 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #491...valve keeper probs To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Ross, First of all, forget about the gently bit....even stock retainers are chrome moly on a chev.....take a decent sized steel hammer and WHACK the corner(edge) of the retainer (repeated if neccessay) do this without the spring compressor on it and even without the air in the cylinder....you will here a difference in tone when the keepers "break loose" from the retainer....this is very common of stamped steel keepers(especially the heat treated ones) and if you plan on running high rpm alot, spend the $35.00's and get machined keepers.......as for your shims wearing through......at high rpm any spring that has a damper will wear through the shim.....you must use heat treated shims to avoid this....most machine shops don't carry them, but can order them.....if you have trouble I have plenty....hth's -Carl Summers In a message dated 8/27/99 2:20:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:13:27 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: help! valve retainer/keeper welded?? sbc how to separate? Not EFI but I"ve exhausted my 5 other lists on chevy's etc and have always gotten great info here so please tolerate my NC. Here's my EFI content, a spare car is coming my way so I should finally be able to build my stout sb replacement and setup my 4Di finally to enjoy the EFI benefits. Now onto my problem... Just to update since I didn't run the original q's past this list, tranny problems w/ my 700R4 led to some missed shifts and 7000rpm a few times this last Sun. night. A hardened pushrod went thru my #2 intake stamped steel rocker arm on my edelbrock performer rpm heads. ******************* question here **************** Just to update for this question, some of my valve spring shims got sheared during some valve float lately so I'm trying to R&R them all I only got one done easily before I got stuck and bought a dead blow hammer on reccomendation....... > Ross, > Use the dead blow but carefully. A small wack is all it should take. well it hasn't turned out that way... as mentioned I R&R'd the spring shims under #2 intake fairly easily and #2 exhaust wouldn't come apart, I hit it gently and then w/ more force side/side and on the top, then placed 5 shims on top of the retainer (to distribute the downforce of the compressor jaws) and hit on the top of the valve compressor tool itself, pushing the valve down in shots etc........no dice whatsoever, I even oiled it just in case (the keepers/retainer) so v. annoyed and hot/tired I figure lets see if #2E is an oddity or the norm, #4Intake goes v. easily and then #4E is same as #2E, do these exhaust ones get welded together??? FWIW, the #4Intake I replaced the valve spring shims on: the top shim was worn right thru in one spot but no sign of any pieces being sheared out. THis is probably the magnetic 'dust' I've gotten in my heads for a while I'd guess. So I'd really like to R&R all these valve spring shims but am at a loss as to how to separate the keepers/retainers on the two exhaust valves encountered so far!!! (and probably the rest) Please someone have an easy timely solution for me.....any hope that heating it would help (probably a huge no-no I assume)??? I do have a small tiger torch and a pen torch???? Or icing it??? I lose my rental car tomorrow night. Oh yeah, the good news is my oil drained w/o a smidge of metal on the drain magnet so that was the good part of this eve. thanks in advance ..... Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ >> From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 08:50:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA24976 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:50:45 -0400 Received: from d06lmsgate.emea.ibm.com (d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24973 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:50:40 -0400 From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate.emea.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA140106 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:43:44 +0100 Received: from d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06mta07_cs0 [9.180.35.5]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/NCO v2.04) with SMTP id NAA55920 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:49:24 +0100 Received: by d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 802567DA.00466BCD ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:49:11 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMGB To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <802567DA.004668A3.00@d06mta07.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:41:17 +0100 Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Is this vehicle a Lotus Sunbeam? Best Regards James MacKenzie From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 09:12:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25193 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:12:59 -0400 Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25190 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:12:58 -0400 Received: from ms01-193.vcr.istar.ca ([137.186.176.193] helo=i-star) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11KLoO-0006E0-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:12:57 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990827062102.00c04b70@istar.ca> Message-Id: <4.1.19990827062102.00c04b70@istar.ca> X-Sender: zxv@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:21:58 -0700 To: "kv@us.ibm.com" From: Ross Corrigan Subject: valve spring removal?? keeper/retainer welded together??!?! help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ross Corrigan wrote. >>and hit on the top of the valve compressor tool itself, pushing the valve >>down in shots etc........no dice whatsoever, I even oiled it just in case Gary replied: >Ross, what kind of a spring compressor tool are you using? If you are >using the kind that slides under the spring coil and has a screw on top >that pushes on the retainer as it pulls on the spring coil I'd try getting >the lever style. yes I"m using the above screw type, it has unparallel length jaws that grab the spring nicely and seat quite well on top (KD Tools), recc'd by one local specialty builder but it's not working right now I guess It slides over the rocker stud and then you put the nut >on to hold it. Then you swing it over to the top of the retainer and you >pull on it to push the retainer down. When you have a tough one you can >put the piston at TDC. When the valve starts to push down it will touch >the piston then you can pull harder and the retainer will break it loose >from the keepers. Are you using air to hold the valves up? Yes, I"m using air to hold the valves up. I can turn down my air comp. regulator to 50psi or so, so I can push the valve (unseat it) it and put the piston at TDC so I can possibly 'carefully' use the piston as a brace on the bottom? As long as I have the piston near TDC, then if the valve drops when it separates (given the the valve is unseated the air might not just seal it right back up) I can just pick the valve back up after (ie. it can't drop below the guide I'd hope)? Sound feasible? Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 10:38:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26615 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:38:05 -0400 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26611 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:38:04 -0400 From: neilaura@accessworldnet.com Received: from desktop (dialup-132.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.132]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01029 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:37:52 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990827073909.006866dc@mail.accessworldnet.com> X-Sender: neilaura@mail.accessworldnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:39:57 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #491 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I'm British, please explain what it means. > >Neil > >Catching hell already. > >British technology means... A clever idea, Lucased. > >Now, don't get me wrong, if I hated all things UKish, I wouldn't burned >the car within 500 miles of buying it... I think it is a bloody fine >tribute to my phenomenal patience that the car doesn't have "Bring back >the V2" stickers all over it at this point. > >I am joking! Jeeze, tough crowd... > >Hell, I just celebrated a unique event in my ownership of the car... 500 >miles of driving and only stranded once! You have been conned!!. It is a physical impossibility for a British car to be reliable for 500 miles. It was special enough that I >emailed several friends... I mean, it was BIG! An absolute first. What >makes it doubly special is that the failure was actually *cheap to fix*... >all it was was the muffler coming unglued, and $10 later the damn thing >was welded together almost perfectly except that one of the resonator >chambers had ground a hole in itself from when it hit the pavement at >70MPH (hence the leaky exhaust). This weekend I'll pull the damaged >section and get'er fixed up proper... but I'm missing my own point here. > >500 miles, and only stranded once! That is damned special. The first 2500 >miles I drove that car (I bought it used) I must have had 20 major >failures (y'know, brakes feel fine, until you reach the stoplight and then >phssss down to the floor they go... stuff like that) You have not been shown the "twin trailing boot" brake backup system. Oops sorry, that's British motorcycles. in 20 major >systems... I didn't think cars like this HAD 20 major systems. I've owned >the car for a year and a half now, and I've driven it less than 4500 >miles. Compare that to my '97 S10 that just passed 74K miles. > >So if yer gonna bust my balls, do it for the fact that my description >of how those damned carbs work was totally wrong. Well, it was part right, >except that it isn't, and the fuel regulates on the vacuum which is passed >to the diaphragm through an inside butterfly, which isn't much different >than what I said except that I was totally wrong. I had to figure all of >this out myself after I posted it just so I wouldn't feel good about >myself last night. > >Hey! WAKE UP! Yeah, you... damn, but it is hard to keep people paying >attention all the way to the end of these emails. > >Anyway, I've had a couple of very interesting responses, and I've >insulted an entire country, but I still don't have a clue... Insults don't work with the British. Whatever you say about us is quite probably true. (except the sheep rumour) > >...about what something like this typically costs. > >Am I looking at 225 UKP, 1600.00 HKD, 5.000 DM, or what? > >TIA, > Jon > > Trying to drag this conversation back on topic. Is anyone on the list experimenting, developing or just thinking about an analogue fuel injection system?. I read an old article some time ago about Chryslers early FI research. It seems they developed an analogue system that had 2 low pressure injectors. Using the ignition pulse, and a TPS they changed the pulse width of a tube type multivibrator to give a 20:1 fuel/air ratio across the engines rev range for 1 injector. Using another multivibrator, which used information from temperature and pressure sensors, the other injector was used to fine tune the mixture to 14.7:1. By all acounts this gave excellent driveability and fuel economy. Anyone ever heard of this?. Neil (Proudly British, but my deepest apologies for inflicting you with the Spice Girls) From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 10:39:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26642 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:39:17 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26639 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:39:14 -0400 Received: from ains.net.au (cgw157.ains.net.au [210.9.53.157]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25825 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:36:58 +1000 Message-Id: <199908271436.AAA25825@dalek.ains.net.au> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:38:41 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY EFI Subject: really small micro kernel OS called QNX Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9AE869564BD0DC69AA04EC4B" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu --------------9AE869564BD0DC69AA04EC4B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit quote from AlphaNT list There is this very cool, really small micro kernel OS called QNX. It wasrecently supposed to be the basis for the newest AmigaOS but was dumped infavor of Linux.I have seen the demos of this and it is very cool, stable, posix compliant andis a REAL TIME OS. Does this mean anything ? Could it be usefull for a peecee based management system ? See I'm really not a ludite. regards, Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom --------------9AE869564BD0DC69AA04EC4B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit quote from AlphaNT list
There is this very cool, really small micro kernel OS called QNX. It wasrecently supposed to be the basis for the newest AmigaOS but was dumped infavor of Linux.I have seen the demos of this and it is very cool, stable, posix compliant andis a REAL TIME OS. 
Does this mean anything ? Could it be usefull for a peecee based
management system ? See I'm really not a ludite.

regards,

 Phil Lamovie

 injec@ains.net.au
 
     cogito ergo zoom
  --------------9AE869564BD0DC69AA04EC4B-- From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 12:24:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29307 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:24:31 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29304 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:24:26 -0400 Received: from ains.net.au (cgw157.ains.net.au [210.9.53.157]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28416 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 02:22:13 +1000 Message-Id: <199908271622.CAA28416@dalek.ains.net.au> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 02:23:57 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: I'm British, please explain what it means. References: <199908270900.FAA23560@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If that is not a worrysome question I don't know what is. In brief; If you ever have to push your motorcycle 11 miles in the rain at 3 o'clock in the morning you will find yourself with a new understanding of the phrase "Lucas Prince of Darkness " If you smile to yourself when you hear this you are probably British. If not, you probably own a late seventies Jaguar like I do. Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 12:31:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29444 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:31:30 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29441 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:31:27 -0400 Received: from ains.net.au (cgw157.ains.net.au [210.9.53.157]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28647 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 02:29:15 +1000 Message-Id: <199908271629.CAA28647@dalek.ains.net.au> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 02:30:59 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Peak and hold conversion References: <199908270900.FAA23560@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Scott et al, The solution is exceptionally simple. Purchase motorola or similar P/H chip. Drive it with original darlington output with maybe a 1k to pull it high. Total cost for 4 cylinder engine is approx. $20 AUS for two low current injectors on each of two drivers (approx. 4 amps available). All the smarts are in the chips including a 4:1 ratio of peak to hold current. End of problem. Regards Phil Lamovie injec@ains.net.au cogito ergo zoom From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 18:35:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02971 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:35:01 -0400 Received: from itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us (root@itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us [198.189.148.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02968 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:35:00 -0400 Received: from pod21b (host-9-30.bc.cc.ca.us [198.189.9.30]) by itsbsdi1.kern.cc.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA15629 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990827153403.00919d20@pop.kern.cc.ca.us> X-Sender: mahayes@pop.kern.cc.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:34:03 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: MASON HAYES Subject: Re:Idiot questions for lazy newby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Try using a Bosch L-jetronic (if you can have the machining done for multi port FI) or if your confined to a carburater setup use a throttle body FI setup. I think Bosch K and KH are thrrottle body (someone correct me if I'm mistaken) I recommend the bosch of earlier models late 70's to mid 80's because of there simplicity and reasoning. go for the hole package when salvaging. the systems tend to use soft fuel lines (american types use stiff lines) makes it easier for modification. consider EGR and any smog and emissions stuff. more questions just holler. From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 18:36:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03006 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:36:09 -0400 Received: from slinky.snni.com (jon@slinky.snni.com [204.216.104.250]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03003 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:36:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (jon@localhost) by slinky.snni.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA07841 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:03:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:03:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jon V." X-Sender: jon@slinky.snni.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby (merged for ease of skipping) In-Reply-To: <199908271900.PAA31585@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bill Wrote: > > The engine... oh, screw it. You people will laugh at me anyway, so I > > might as well... The engine is a Lotus 907E. > > Hey, they didn't laugh at my Spider (not out loud anyway), Naw, they just took a look at it on your web page and realized that laughing would just make them look silly. I don't have my car on a web page... FOR GOOD REASON! If I had MY car on a web page, people WOULD laugh! > so I doubt they'll laugh at a Lotus. Worst case you'll have to put up > with some good natured 'Brit' comments. At least you don't have to > listen to the "Fix It Again Tony" cracks :-) That's just it... the car *isn't* a Lotus... and if it *was* it would be "Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious" or one of the less presentable versions. Only the engine is Lotus... so you can begin to see my shame. > > Just to put the record straight, Lotus used the bottom end of > > exsisting production engines and used their own heads and cams. In the > > case of your engine, it was the Ford (you have my sympathy). But take > > some consolation, the other option was the French Renault. > > If it's a Ford 2L block you should be able to find all the parts you > need without much searching. I think I might start by scrounging an > intake from a 2L Mustang, or maybe just buying an intake gasket, to see > how things line up. It could just be my phenomenal ignorance biting me once again, but I'm not entirely sure that the 907-912 engines really are Fords. I am unaware, and one of the things encompassed by that lack of awareness is any '70s Ford fourbanger that used cylinder liners, for example. * It doesn't really matter though, 'cause the head is VERY different from any Ford I've ever taken a hammer to. Its got one of those seriously practicality-doesn't-matter DOHC setups with the plugs way down in a grotto between the cams, etcetera, and I don't think that anybody else's FI manifolds will bolt on. The nice thing is that the "standard" carbs (aka the carbs that I don't have) are port-on-port, so I might be able to convert one of those manifolds to FI by fitting a plenum etc... but DAMN those manifolds are frigging expensive. I need to revise my previous estimate of $900 to recarb. After checking again that is $1400... with the difference being in the manifold. Anyway, I keep reading, and keep studying, and I'm finding fascinating factoid after factoid... which I love. The wish lists and grand schemes of yesterday look laughable today, and every once in a while I catch a glimpse of something really interesting just over the horizon. How about this question... Does anybody know of a source of throttle plate assemblies for an individual throttle injection type system? Or, almost as good, plans/diagrams? I have access to a CNC milling machine on an "if you'll fix it" basis, and I bet I could fabricate the parts myself if I really needed to... but I'm no machinist and the mill has a blown servo card ($1500 to replace, or probably $1.50 to fix if I took the time to figure out what was wrong), so I would rather not go that route. -Jon * The story as I understand it is that the older Lotus engine(s) (the "TwinCam" to be specific) were Ford blocks with replacement heads, but Ford was telling lotus that they would stop production of the blocks... so Lotus started development of their own engine, and the result was the 907... which they are still producing in a 2.2L version with EFI and turbo(s) under the 910 or 912 designation. This ain't no Pinto engine, that's for sure. The block is aluminum, the total weight is about 270Lbs for everything in front of the clutch (starter included). You can see a picture of the engine with some VERY optimistic specs (displacement especially) at http://www.caribinfo.com/ukinfo/lotus/engines.html Mine has a snazzy yellow and black paint job, though... > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:41:17 +0100 > From: JMACKENZ@uk.ibm.com > Subject: Re: Idiot qestions for lazy newby > > Is this vehicle a Lotus Sunbeam? Oh no! I've started a guessing game. Nope... the car isn't a Lotus at all... just the engine. -Jon > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:39:57 -0700 > From: neilaura@accessworldnet.com > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #491 > > >Hell, I just celebrated a unique event in my ownership of the car... 500 > >miles of driving and only stranded once! > > You have been conned!!. > It is a physical impossibility for a British car to be reliable for 500 miles. Well... it did leave me stranded once during that period... that's really only 250 miles of between incidents. ... > You have not been shown the "twin trailing boot" brake backup system. > Oops sorry, that's British motorcycles. You actually claim to be British?!?!? I don't THINK so... if you were British you'd know that even the cars have TTB brake backup systems... you just kick through the rust plates (where floorboards go in Japanese cars) and drop leather. > >Anyway, I've had a couple of very interesting responses, and I've > >insulted an entire country, but I still don't have a clue... > > Insults don't work with the British. > Whatever you say about us is quite probably true. (except the sheep rumor) I thought the sheep thing was for N'Zealandies. > Trying to drag this conversation back on topic. I'm so ashamed.... > Is anyone on the list experimenting, developing or just thinking about an > analogue fuel injection system?. AUIGHGGGHGHGHG!!!!!!!!!! I take back my doubts about your Britishness! Lucas has corrupted your sole, and turned you against the light of the electronic age!!! I had an air cooled VW with a mechanical FI system once... it worked very nicely when it worked, and was a PITA when it didn't. (Once failed a CA emissions test with that car... because Nitro measurements were TOO LOW! had to screw it up and have them retest it.) -Jon And... That's about it... Having so much fun with the conversation I can't even remember if any of my questions have been answered.... prolly not, but who am I to complain... by the way, if the length of this is pissing you off, please, please, please yell at me OFF the list... I don't know how many times I've seen that same mistake made again and again of people bitching about long pointless threads by starting long pointless threads... but maybe that doesn't happen here... Anyway, thanks all, and here's hoping that more (of the right sort of stuff) will come of it! -Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Feeling Cold? Try pissing into the wind... From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 19:02:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03252 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:02:57 -0400 Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03248 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:02:56 -0400 Received: from 207-172-144-247.s56.as3.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com (207-172-144-247.s56.as3.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.144.247]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id TAA20923 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:02:55 -0400 (EDT) From: charlesmorris@erols.com (Charles) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: inflictions Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:03:12 GMT Message-ID: <37c718bc.745528@smtp.erols.com> References: <199908271900.PAA31585@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199908271900.PAA31585@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id TAA03249 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:00:01 -0400, you wrote: > >Neil (Proudly British, but my deepest apologies for inflicting you with the >Spice Girls) Don't feel that you have to apologize for the Spice Girls; our tastes in many things popular cannot apparently be underestimated. However, an apology for Louise Woodward would be more appropriate... -Charles Former owner of a '72 MGB. Fun while it ran, which was not often or for long. From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 19:14:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03448 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:14:49 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03445 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:14:47 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id RXZFBLXH; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:14:42 -0400 Message-ID: <37C71BD0.35A9D583@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:14:24 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIYEFI Subject: Chrysler ECM Info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To whoever asked about the chrysler ECM info... I apologize I forgot who asked... http://minimopar.simplenet.com/ecu/index.html -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 19:40:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03997 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:40:45 -0400 Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03994 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:40:43 -0400 Received: from v6v1j4 (qrvl209-74-60ppp196.epix.net [209.74.60.196]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999072601/PL) with SMTP id TAA20536 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004901bef0e5$bf111f60$c43c4ad1@v6v1j4> From: "crash70" To: Subject: Analog Fuel Injection Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:41:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just throwing this one out there......... How hard would it be to convert a CIS-Lamda frequency valve driver to an analog fuel injection system? The O2 sensor controls the duty cycle. I'm thinking...convert (this is where the big boys come in) a hot-wire sensor to output in Mv. The higher the Mv, the slower the duty cycle. So the signal would need to be inverted. CIS-L boxes are a dime-a-dozen on old VW's and Audis....could be really cheap!! Just thinkin........ Chris Bishop From diy_efi-owner Fri Aug 27 23:41:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07824 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:41:33 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07818 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:41:32 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:42:21 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.14] by grolen.com id bd140.wrk; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:40:42 EDT Message-ID: <37C75A26.B9DB9FF9@grolen.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:40:22 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: valve spring removal?? keeper/retainer welded together??!?! help References: <199908271900.PAA31585@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Ross Corrigan wrote. > >>and hit on the top of the valve compressor tool itself, pushing the valve > >>down in shots etc........no dice whatsoever, I even oiled it just in case > > Gary replied: > >Ross, what kind of a spring compressor tool are you using? If you are > >using the kind that slides under the spring coil and has a screw on top > >that pushes on the retainer as it pulls on the spring coil I'd try getting > >the lever style. > > yes I"m using the above screw type, it has unparallel length jaws that grab > the spring nicely and seat quite well on top (KD Tools), recc'd by one > local specialty builder but it's not working right now I guess If it's compressing the springs, it's doing it's job. It's not a keeper remover, just a spring compressor. I use the same tool. For locked valve keepers, a socket on the spring retainer and some stout blows with a hammer usually do the trick. Gentle taps would get you a days worth of frustration. > > It slides over the rocker stud and then you put the nut > >on to hold it. Then you swing it over to the top of the retainer and you > >pull on it to push the retainer down. When you have a tough one you can > >put the piston at TDC. When the valve starts to push down it will touch > >the piston then you can pull harder and the retainer will break it loose > >from the keepers. Are you using air to hold the valves up? Lever type compressors can be limited by available engine compartment space. Might want to check for clearance. The tool is usually 10"-12" long. > > Yes, I"m using air to hold the valves up. I can turn down my air comp. > regulator to 50psi or so, so I can push the valve (unseat it) it and put > the piston at TDC so I can possibly 'carefully' use the piston as a brace > on the bottom? >As long as I have the piston near TDC, then if the valve > drops when it separates (given the the valve is unseated the air might not > just seal it right back up Shop air won't lift an open valve. Skip that step to save yourself some time.: ) Shannen From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 28 10:22:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:22:05 -0400 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12338 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:22:03 -0400 From: neilaura@accessworldnet.com Received: from desktop (dialup-77.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.77]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25514 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:22:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990828072323.00688a74@mail.accessworldnet.com> X-Sender: neilaura@mail.accessworldnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:23:26 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #493 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >How about this question... Does anybody know of a source of throttle plate >assemblies for an individual throttle injection type system? Or, almost as >good, plans/diagrams? I have access to a CNC milling machine on an "if >you'll fix it" basis, and I bet I could fabricate the parts myself if I >really needed to... but I'm no machinist and the mill has a blown servo >card ($1500 to replace, or probably $1.50 to fix if I took the time to >figure out what was wrong), so I would rather not go that route. > >- -Jon > It may be of no help Jon. But check out late 70's early 80's Kawasaki KZ750/1100 motorcycles. They came with the option of fuel injection. The system never worked right, and when something went wrong with the electronics, with a replacement cost of one arm, one leg and your first born, the FI was pulled off and replaced with a set of carbs. The KZ1100 was an inline 4 motor with 4 individual injector/butterfly bodies. It may be a starting point for ideas. Neil From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 28 11:09:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12633 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:09:39 -0400 Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12630 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:09:37 -0400 Received: from v6v1j4 (qrvl209-74-60ppp175.epix.net [209.74.60.175]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999072601/PL) with SMTP id LAA13670 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000e01bef167$850d00e0$af3c4ad1@v6v1j4> From: "crash70" To: Subject: Re: Throttle plates for individual throttle injection Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:10:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >How about this question... Does anybody know of a source of throttle plate >assemblies for an individual throttle injection type system? Here's a couple of links to check out: TWM Induction at www.twminduction.com and Electromotive at www.electromotive-inc.com Good Luck!! Chris Bishop From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 28 19:21:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17347 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:21:43 -0400 Received: from problem.problem.org (gateway.problem.org [209.47.148.176] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17344 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:21:41 -0400 Received: by problem.problem.org (Smail3.2.0.104 #1) id m11KrsM-0000OJC; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Subject: Re: individual bore intakes To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199908281900.PAA14582@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "DIY_EFI Digest" at Aug 28, 99 03:00:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu illuminition.com Clive From diy_efi-owner Sat Aug 28 20:34:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA17830 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:34:42 -0400 Received: from mailrelay3.sni.net (mailrelay3.sni.net [199.117.160.142]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17827 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:34:41 -0400 Received: from [204.132.128.6] (p5.Steamboat.dialup.csn.net [204.132.128.5]) by mailrelay3.sni.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04989 for mail_from ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:34:39 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@lynx.sni.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:34:32 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@sni.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #494 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>How about this question... Does anybody know of a source of throttle plate >>assemblies for an individual throttle injection type system? > There is a Brit outfit that makes them, patterned after Weber carbs, and with one or two bosses for injectors. Don't have the name on the tip of my tongue, but could find it. Greg From diy_efi-owner Sun Aug 29 01:42:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20411 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:42:53 -0400 Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20408 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:42:52 -0400 Received: from ms01-25.vcr.istar.ca ([137.186.176.25] helo=i-star) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11Kxju-0005k6-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:42:50 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990828223603.00b73840@istar.ca> Message-Id: <4.1.19990828223603.00b73840@istar.ca> X-Sender: zxv@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:43:24 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ross Corrigan Subject: valves/retainers/keepers, all done thanks!! In-Reply-To: <199908271900.PAA31585@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_50589521==_.ALT" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu --=====================_50589521==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:52:27 EDT > From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #491...valve keeper probs > > Hi Ross, > First of all, forget about the gently bit....even stock retainers are > > chrome moly on a chev.....take a decent sized steel hammer and WHACK the > corner(edge) of the retainer (repeated if neccessay) do this without the > spring compressor on it and even without the air in the cylinder....you will > here a difference in tone when the keepers "break loose" from the > retainer....this is very common of stamped steel keepers(especially the heat > treated ones) and if you plan on running high rpm alot, spend the $35.00's > and get machined keepers.......as for your shims wearing through......at high > > rpm any spring that has a damper will wear through the shim.....you must use > heat treated shims to avoid this....most machine shops don't carry them, but > can order them.....if you have trouble I have plenty....hth's > - -Carl Summers Well thanks a mint Carl. I'd polled all my other chevy lists and friends and you 'hit it on the retainer' this time:-) I got a new set of hardened keepers today and R&R'd all my valve spring shims and the keepers. Used my normal carpentry hammer in the diagonal blow mentioned above. What a tip on 'listening' to the sound. The stuck retainer has a hollow tinny sound (like rotten concrete) and t