From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 1 07:18:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03139 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:18:17 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03136 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:18:12 -0400 Received: from rm ([195.44.17.52]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:17:30 +0100 Message-ID: <005f01bf0bfe$4f6549a0$34112cc3@rm> From: "Rich Mauruschat" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #553 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:58:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Assuming you have Motronic 1.5, have you checked the idle speed control valve - this is a rotary valve which controls the idle speed by opening or closing as neccessary an air channel which bypasses the throttle plate. These can get affected by oil/carbon from the breather system which causes a blockage or sticking; maybe heat is making this worse? Just a thought. Rich -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI Digest To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: 30 September 1999 11:04 Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #553 >Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 08:25:58 +0200 >From: Putter C >Subject: Bosch Motronic > >I have a problem with my opel(vauxhaul) Astra 200i (Not the EURO series). >Maybe anybody on the list have seen the following syntoms: >When I drive for quit a while (1-2hours) and go to stop at a trafic light >then the masjine tends to stall, I have changed air fileters, feul filters >and sparc-plugs(the usual), but the probleem seems to be a little deeper. >Any help would be appreciated. >#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > Carlo Putter >Development Engineer SED Ontwerps ingenieur SED >University of Stellenbosch Universiteit van Stellenbosch >South Africa Suid Afrika >- ------------------------------------------------------------- > e-mail : cputter@eng.sun.ac.za > web : www.sed.sun.ac.za > Tel : 8084033 > Fax : 808 4981 >- ------------------------------------------------------------- From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 1 09:56:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA04874 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:56:09 -0400 Received: from ns.bigbear.net (p94.amax7.dialup.lax1.flash.net [209.30.75.94]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA04869; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:55:58 -0400 From: mowhco@att.net Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:21:30 Message-Id: <404.306306.326963@ns.bigbear.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear Future Associate, You Can Work At Home & Set Your Own Hours. Start earning Big Money in a short time NO Newspaper Advertising! Your job will be to stuff and mail envelopes for our company. You will receive $.25 for each and every envelope you stuff and mail out. Just follow our simple instructions and you will be making money as easy as 1… 2… 3 For example stuff and mail 200 envelopes and you will receive $50.00. Stuff and mail 1000 and you will receive $250.00. Stuff and mail 2000 and you will receive $500.00 and more Never before has there been an easier way to make money from home! Our Company's Home Mailing Program is designed for people with little or no experience and provides simple, step by step instructions. 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From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 1 12:26:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07914 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:26:05 -0400 Received: from mail.sun.ac.za (mail.sun.ac.za [146.232.128.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07911 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:25:56 -0400 Received: from ingweb.ing.sun.ac.za ([146.232.146.113]) by mail.sun.ac.za with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11X2Ya-0003J7-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:17:04 +0200 Received: by ingweb.ing.sun.ac.za with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:12:13 +0200 Message-ID: From: Putter C To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Re: opel motroinc Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:21:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:44:39 EDT From: JCsDOOR@aol.com Subject: Re: opel motroinc Hi If you have an evap system that would be a good place to start. If you are in the habit of filling up to the very top you may have a charco canister that is full of gas. Also could be your idle air motor is dirty. You didn't say what year? Is obd2? Jim crance Colorado springs. CO. ------------------------------ [[[leigh [lee@tac.com.au]]] I wont be back at work for 3 days, its friday 7.00pm now, i will see what i can find out for you. leigh turner At 08:43 AM 10/1/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Leigh > >Thanks for the response. >I have got the 200SEH engine in my astra (8-vale, 200i, 1995 model), my dads >got >the 200XELN engine and his does the same (16-valve, 200IE, 1998 model). > >The only thisgs that are not standard on the motors is the intake filters, >I've replaced >it with K&N filters. My dads car is due for a sprac-plug change, so I don't >know if that >could have this kind of effect. ------------------------------ It is a 1995 year model, I am not sure whether it has a coal canister (I'll go an search for it). Here in South Africa we are quit a bit behind the rest of the word, (that is conserning ecological improvements to motor vehicles). The funny thing is that this problem is one of those inconsistent ones, one day it is there the other it is gone Thanks for the response Carlo From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 1 16:27:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA11543 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:27:50 -0400 Received: from mail.magna.on.ca (mail.magna.on.ca [206.186.122.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11540 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:27:48 -0400 From: Aribert_Neumann@magna.on.ca Received: from mrcvall01ds.magna.on.ca - 172.31.1.5 by mail.magna.on.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:27:59 -0400 Received: by mrcvall01ds.magna.on.ca(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 852567FD.0070CAB3 ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:31:59 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MIMCO@MRC To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <852567FD.0070CA58.00@mrcvall01ds.magna.on.ca> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:26:59 -0400 Subject: New member & Motronic M1.5 project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Greetings all I joined this list recently and am applying a Bosch Motronic M1.5 system from an early 90's Opel/Vauxhaul 2.0 L onto a 92 Isuzu 2.3 L (was carb'ed). Anyone familiar with this system? I have the complete GM FI system including all sensors, harness, intake manifold, ECU etc. from a test vehicle that was brought into the US for evaluation. Was this system (M1.5) or very similar on anything imported into the US, if so what years? Suggested literature / URLs? To adapt the GM FI intake the Isuzu head I plan on fabricating a 0.75 in 19 mm adapter plate - is it reasonable to assume that driveability will not suffer greatly with the injectors further upstream? How critical is crank timing (injector timing, +/- ? degs) if I am able to adjust ignition (static) timing - a feature not available on the M1.5 distributor. From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 1 17:30:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12511 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:30:41 -0400 Received: from iobox.com ([212.62.6.198]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12507 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:30:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by iobox.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13120 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 00:28:17 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:28:17 EET DST From: " Jussi Tykkä" Message-Id: <4af904f6019ab9d22e368f968986ecb1@iobox.com> X-Mailer: GNW Mail mk2 (2) Subject: Bimota YB4 To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I was looking for information about Bimota YB4 motorcycle fuel injection system. Components, maybe pictures just anything. Jussi jtykka@iobox.com ---- Get your email to your mobile phone - http://www.iobox.com/ From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 3 14:22:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:22:36 -0400 Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01022 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:22:24 -0400 Received: from [195.171.255.164] (helo=alansmit) by neodymium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11XqH8-0004Pa-00 for DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:22:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000701bf0dcc$a7827f20$a4ffabc3@alansmit> From: "Alan Smith" To: "DIY-EFI" Subject: Injector I.C Info sought Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:25:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can anybody help me identify a 21 pin Multiwatt package Injector driver chip in a Motronic ECU ? I think it was made by ST, formerly known as SGS. Alan Smith From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 3 16:31:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02438 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:31:55 -0400 Received: from tbaytel.net (tbaytel3.tbaytel.net [206.47.150.229]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02433 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:31:53 -0400 Received: from tbaytel.net (Rockcliffe56.tbaytel.net [207.236.147.106]) by tbaytel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24204 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:31:52 -0400 Message-ID: <37F7BCF3.76C83EEC@tbaytel.net> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:30:43 -0400 From: Darren Floen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Fuel injecting a 4.3 References: <199910031900.PAA01253@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi,i'm new to the list.I'm fairly inexperienced with electronic FI,but i'd like to install a throttle body setup on a 1986 4.3 chevy engine.I'm swapping this engine into my 85 Toyota truck.What type of setup would be best?I was thinking of a Holley Pro-jection setup,but I have heard some bad things about them.I was thinking of using the 2Di,closed loop setup. Could i use the injection setup off say a 3.8 liter buick?Would it be able to compensate for the larger engine? Thanks very much for any replies,and please cc them to me at dfloen@tbaytel.net Darren From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 04:04:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA09167 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 04:04:20 -0400 Received: from wasp.co.za (IDENT:root@wasp.co.za [196.31.211.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09160 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 04:04:11 -0400 Received: from nvdwpc (nvdwpc.wasp.co.za [196.31.211.37]) by wasp.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28998 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:03:50 +0200 Message-Id: <4.1.19991004095506.00a4a330@wasp.co.za> X-Sender: nvdw@wasp.co.za X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:04:36 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Nic van der Walt Subject: SGS driver In-Reply-To: <199910031900.PAA01253@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Can anybody help me identify a 21 pin Multiwatt package Injector driver chip >in a Motronic ECU ? > >I think it was made by ST, formerly known as SGS. In all likelyhood it is just a dual or quad half bridge driver. I have used them frequently in coil drivers. They demand an excellent protection diode across the coil, otherwise they will fail quickly and spectacularly. If the device is malfunctioning replace all the diodes around it with higher spec devices. When used with the correct clamping diode these components are great, but expensive. Some of the ST components have current monitoring, should work great for injector checking. Regards, Nic van der Walt ------------------------------------------------------------ Cellpoint Systems SA http://www.cellpt.co.za GSM Technology for Positioning and Telematics ------------------------------------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 08:11:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA10816 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:11:04 -0400 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10813 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:11:02 -0400 Received: from cruzers.com (stanley-57.cruzers.com [209.165.194.57]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA27787; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 05:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F8A80E.87BABF9D@cruzers.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 05:13:57 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel injecting a 4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Darren Floen wrote: > Hi,i'm new to the list.I'm fairly inexperienced with electronic FI,but > i'd like to install a throttle body setup on a 1986 4.3 chevy engine.I'm > swapping this engine into my 85 Toyota truck.What type of setup would be > best? That's an easy question: You want to use the TBI setup from a 1987+ 4.3. No need to reinvent the wheel. Some 85 and 86 4.3's also came with TBI, but the 87+ ECM is much better understood. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 11:27:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13511 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:27:55 -0400 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA13508 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:27:54 -0400 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id KAA26450; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:27:59 -0500 Received: from aussun1.austin.arm.com(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (4.1) id xma026448; Mon, 4 Oct 99 10:27:53 -0500 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17977 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:27:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37F8C6E9.AB34DF4E@arm.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:25:29 -0500 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Fuel injecting a 4.3 References: <199910040900.FAA09518@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:30:43 -0400 > From: Darren Floen > Subject: Fuel injecting a 4.3 > > Hi,i'm new to the list.I'm fairly inexperienced with electronic FI,but > i'd like to install a throttle body setup on a 1986 4.3 chevy engine.I'm > swapping this engine into my 85 Toyota truck.What type of setup would be > best?I was thinking of a Holley Pro-jection setup,but I have heard some > bad things about them.I was thinking of using the 2Di,closed loop setup. > Could i use the injection setup off say a 3.8 liter buick?Would it be > able to compensate for the larger engine? > > Thanks very much for any replies,and please cc them to me at > dfloen@tbaytel.net Darren, if you're interested in the GM approach (should save you some $$$), then get a TBI system from a 4.3. They shouldn't be hard to find, almost every S-10 from late 88 on has one. Also Astro vans, and maybe some full size pickups? Anyway, it doesn't get more bolt on than that. No reason to use the 3.8 and worry about tuning and stuff. Also get the service manual from whatever vehicle donates the EFI parts, that'll help with wiring. --steve > > Darren > -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 14:39:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA17007 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:39:46 -0400 Received: from moe.indy.net (moe.indy.net [199.3.65.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17004; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:39:44 -0400 Received: from indy.net (ip209-183-85-161.ts.indy.net [209.183.85.161]) by moe.indy.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09396; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:39:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <37F8F489.CD95C295@indy.net> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:40:10 -0500 From: "Jack E. James" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Best EFI Choice? (GM, EECIV, Mopar) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Group, I am just starting out to convert some older motors (Ford 302, 460 for now, but have 454 Chev and 390 AMC planned later, all in various states of street/strip tune) and am looking for choosing a system to "standardize" my investment of hardware, software and "education". Would anyone offer pros and cons for the major systems in wrecking yard availability. Is there any internet sources that consider the merits of one system over another for a hot rodder? Some items I believe important in choosing are (order may vary): 1. loop processing speeds, 2. "tunability" (should include backyard build it yourself kits or modules for processors), 3. Software decoding, the understanding of control locations for many years of availability. 4. Costs of external tuning, software and adapters for making processor modifications. Any suggestions welcome, Jay From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 15:27:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18204 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:27:09 -0400 Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18201 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:27:08 -0400 Received: from [195.99.45.78] (helo=alansmit) by neodymium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11YDlD-0007Yd-00 for DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:26:59 +0100 Message-ID: <006d01bf0e9e$db2c5300$4e2d63c3@alansmit> From: "Alan Smith" To: "DIY-EFI" Subject: Vauxhall / Opel Cavalier BIN wanted Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:30:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear All, Can anybody help me with a bin file for an Opel/Vauxhall Cavalier with lambda probe ? A Carlton or Omega bin would do. regards Alan Smith From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 16:09:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19250 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:09:17 -0400 Received: from mail.bezeqint.net (mail-a.bezeqint.net [192.115.106.23]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19247 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:09:15 -0400 Received: from isdn.net.il ([212.25.68.73]) by mail.bezeqint.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJ300E05H69FX@mail.bezeqint.net> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:07:52 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 22:11:25 +0200 From: yaron sadot Subject: os sensor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <37F909ED.66A0E52D@isdn.net.il> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199910040900.FAA09518@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi first time i write here is it safe to remove os if i dont have cat anymore? i have alfa rome 33 1.7ie 8v 1994 mp3.1 bosch ecu is going to safe mode- i mean the ecu cause i cut out the sensor? thanks for helping out yaron DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > DIY_EFI Digest Monday, October 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 559 > > In this issue: > > Fuel injecting a 4.3 > SGS driver > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:30:43 -0400 > From: Darren Floen > Subject: Fuel injecting a 4.3 > > Hi,i'm new to the list.I'm fairly inexperienced with electronic FI,but > i'd like to install a throttle body setup on a 1986 4.3 chevy engine.I'm > swapping this engine into my 85 Toyota truck.What type of setup would be > best?I was thinking of a Holley Pro-jection setup,but I have heard some > bad things about them.I was thinking of using the 2Di,closed loop setup. > Could i use the injection setup off say a 3.8 liter buick?Would it be > able to compensate for the larger engine? > > Thanks very much for any replies,and please cc them to me at > dfloen@tbaytel.net > > Darren > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:04:36 +0200 > From: Nic van der Walt > Subject: SGS driver > > >Can anybody help me identify a 21 pin Multiwatt package Injector driver chip > >in a Motronic ECU ? > > > >I think it was made by ST, formerly known as SGS. > > In all likelyhood it is just a dual or quad half bridge driver. > > I have used them frequently in coil drivers. They demand an excellent > protection diode across the coil, otherwise they will fail quickly > and spectacularly. If the device is malfunctioning replace all the > diodes around it with higher spec devices. When used with the correct > clamping diode these components are great, but expensive. > > Some of the ST components have current monitoring, should work > great for injector checking. > > Regards, > Nic van der Walt > > - ------------------------------------------------------------ > Cellpoint Systems SA http://www.cellpt.co.za > GSM Technology for Positioning and Telematics > - ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #559 > ***************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 19:21:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21946 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:21:30 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21943 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:21:29 -0400 Received: (qmail 24593 invoked from network); 4 Oct 1999 23:21:27 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 4 Oct 1999 23:21:27 -0000 Received: from al (lax-ts3-h2-44-185.ispmodems.net [209.162.44.185]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA19823; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:21:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: "Cambra, Lance" , "EFI" Subject: RE: EFI control unit Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:25:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You might find that the ECU6 or ECU7 could be adapted to your needs. While it uses an oxygen sensor for optimal calibration, it will operate just fine without one if you do the calibration using other means. The tables may be edited in Excel. Good luck. - Al > -----Original Message----- > From: Cambra, Lance [mailto:lcambra@email.mc.ti.com] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:15 PM > To: alipper@aol.com > Subject: EFI control unit > > > I'm curios as to whether or not you could help me out with a problem > I have . I race a 1986 ford mustang with the 2.3 liter 4 cyl . and have > been blessed by the track I race at to use the factory EFI system . > I'm looking for a way to control the fuel and idle speed only and > eliminate the rev limiter . I have been looking into aftermarket ecu's but > find them rather pricey for a class with a $1000.00 claiming rule > . Besides > I prefer to do things myself as much as I can and keep the cost > of racing as > low as possible . > I work at Texas Instruments in Attleboro Ma. and though my > background is mechanical I work with some very talented technicians and > engineers that could help me with the electronics portion of the > product . > The system I would need can't use a 02 sensor because of leaded race > fuels . Would you be willing to help me out with this problem ? I can only > give you my word that this is for my racing program and has no affiliation > with my work nor do I plan to market any of the devices . > Please contact me if you are or are not interested in this . Thank > You > Lance Cambra > > lcambra@ti.com > 286 Mendall > Rd. > Acushnet Ma > 02743 > From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 21:46:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24253 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:46:19 -0400 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (comai@expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24250 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:46:17 -0400 Received: from localhost (comai@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06772 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Comai To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Jeep 258 Conversion In-Reply-To: <199910041900.PAA17453@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am new to the list as well. I have recently been looking into an upgrade for my AMC 258 I6. It has become clear to me that the only way to economicly do it is to do it myself. I have looked into Howell's kit and it looks pretty good (aside from the $1k pricetag). I called up and tried to order just the GM -> AMC intake adapter and they would only sell it to me with their "harness" and PROM. Here is my 1st question - They charge $350 for their harness and I asked them why it was so expensive they said it was due to the filter for the RPM sensor. What is the signal needed at the computer and what kind of conditioning would I have to do to the signal off the negative side of the coil? I also plan on getting an adapter machined (unless there is a better way?) but I don't know how crucial the design is. My thought was to take the shop the old Carb and the new TBI and have him machine me a 1" thick plate, putting recessed holes for the plate to manifold mount bolts and threaded holes for the TBI to plate mounts. How crucial is it to taper the TBI hole to the manifold opening? Are sharp edges ok or does it need to be smooth? Last question is about the PROM. I will probably eventually write my own prom but initially I plan on using the prom from a 4.3L GM donor (post '87). Will it adapt to the 4.2L AMC motor ok? I would appreciate any help and suggestions for improving my approach as this is a new thing for me. Mike Comai 1979 Jeep CJ-5 From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 4 22:47:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA25085 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:47:08 -0400 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25082 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:47:07 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id jYKVa11143 (3978) for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6bf91103.252ac089@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:46:33 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #559 4.3L EFI To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Why not a TBI setup off of a 88-91 4.3 pu????pretty standard stuff and lots of info on the 7747 computer.....hth's -Carl Summers In a message dated 10/4/99 2:20:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:30:43 -0400 From: Darren Floen Subject: Fuel injecting a 4.3 Hi,i'm new to the list.I'm fairly inexperienced with electronic FI,but i'd like to install a throttle body setup on a 1986 4.3 chevy engine.I'm swapping this engine into my 85 Toyota truck.What type of setup would be best?I was thinking of a Holley Pro-jection setup,but I have heard some bad things about them.I was thinking of using the 2Di,closed loop setup. Could i use the injection setup off say a 3.8 liter buick?Would it be able to compensate for the larger engine? Thanks very much for any replies,and please cc them to me at dfloen@tbaytel.net Darren >> From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 5 02:21:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA27017 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:21:28 -0400 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA27014 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:21:27 -0400 Received: from default - 63.23.167.195 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:20:58 -0700 Message-ID: <12ff01bf0ef8$8d22a740$aea4173f@default> From: "frwilk" To: "diy_efi" Subject: UEGO in the place of my stock BOSCH EGO sensor Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:12:05 -0700 Organization: Microsoft Corporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_12FC_01BF0EBD.DF7D4580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_12FC_01BF0EBD.DF7D4580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an 84 944 Porsche with a Bosch Motronic FI.=20 Someone is trying to sell a UEGO in the place of my stock BOSCH EGO = sensor saying it is better.=20 Considering the differences in the 2 sensors, I don't see how it can = even work much less work better. Has anyone tried this and how is it working? Thanks in advance,=20 FR Wilk new member ------=_NextPart_000_12FC_01BF0EBD.DF7D4580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have an 84 944 Porsche with a Bosch Motronic FI.
Someone is trying to sell a UEGO in the place of my stock BOSCH EGO = sensor=20 saying it is better.
Considering the differences in the 2 sensors, I don't see how it = can even=20 work much less work better.
Has anyone tried this and how is it working?
 
Thanks in advance,
 
FR Wilk
new member
------=_NextPart_000_12FC_01BF0EBD.DF7D4580-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 5 10:24:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA31804 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:24:25 -0400 Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [209.57.253.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31801 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:24:23 -0400 Received: from gderian (dialcust-241.ts5.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.1.241]) by users.qual.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06403 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <018e01bf0f3d$5beddc40$f101d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <199910050900.FAA28549@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #561 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:06:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If your ECU is expecting an O2 signal, it will fault it you remove it. Some Bosch ECUs have an open loop mode without sensor but chip must be reprogrammed. Gary Derian > Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 22:11:25 +0200 > From: yaron sadot > Subject: os sensor > > hi > > first time i write here > > is it safe to remove os if i dont have cat anymore? > > i have alfa rome 33 1.7ie 8v 1994 > > mp3.1 bosch ecu > > is going to safe mode- i mean the ecu cause i cut out the sensor? > > thanks for helping out > > yaron > From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 5 13:17:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03565 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:17:50 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03562 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:17:48 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id fa072779 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:18:58 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991005133312.0078a5a8@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:33:12 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Cc: ian@spagtime.freeserve.co.uk In-Reply-To: <199910041900.PAA17453@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. I can pick up these units for about 50ukp!! Comments? Ade From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 5 16:17:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06733 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:17:26 -0400 Received: from bserv.com (bserv.com [204.101.197.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06730 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:17:24 -0400 Received: (qmail 19346 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 20:43:11 -0000 Received: from pm7p5.bserv.com (HELO pm1p21.bserv.com) (204.101.197.135) by bserv.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 20:43:11 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19991005161725.192f7476@bserv.com> X-Sender: tigers@bserv.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:17:25 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Bob Tom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #562 In-Reply-To: <199910051900.PAA05222@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:33:12 +0100 >From: Ade + Lamb Chop >Subject: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? > >I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even >heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle >body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the >following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few >sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. >Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated >o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. There is a EFI Control System called the Alpha-N which calculates air flow by measuring only engine rpm (via coil) and throttle position via a Throttle Position sensor. Pros are simple installation and compatible with radically- cammed engines. Cons are no closed-looped operation, inferior part-throttle cruise metering and entire fuel map must be reprogrammed. A MAP can be optionally used but mainly as a input for barometric pressure for different altitudes. This system is used for racing or heavily-modified street engines with big cams and low vacuum. Bob, Burlington, Ontario '97 FR CC Sport, 5.2L, 3.55 SG, auto., 15.234 @ 87.26 From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 6 04:38:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA13726 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:38:34 -0400 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA13723 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:38:31 -0400 Received: from amiga3k (p139-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.139]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA32606 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:38:19 +1300 Date: 06 Oct 99 21:29:37 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #562 To: "DIY_EFI Digest" In-Reply-To: <199910051900.PAA05222@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <1221.948T1887T12894294@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, October 5 1999 Volume 04 : Number 562 >Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:33:12 +0100 >From: Ade + Lamb Chop >Subject: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? >I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even >heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle >body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the >following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few >sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. >Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated >o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. I vaguely think that you only need a throttle position sensor and a map sensor to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft position sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual sensor. As you know, these are a bummer to remove from the mini, especially in a scrap yard. Still, it is highly doable. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 6 09:06:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15664 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:06:56 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15661 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:06:55 -0400 Received: from CR929909A ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <19991006130513.XSW9280.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@CR929909A> for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01bf0ffb$b326b6d0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: References: <199910060900.FAA13811@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: low pressure cfi Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:07:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm trying to put together a minimalist efi for a Soob aircraft conversion. Looking at GM single unit TBI from a 2000 cc 1988 OHC Pontiac. Is this a 10psi injector? What flow rate? I'm thinking a 555 triggered by ignition pulse with the base pulse set for idle or no load conditions. A MAP sensor output fed to the control pin of the 555 will increase the pulse width with engine load. I have several Toyota ZZ map sensors to play with - they run on 5 to 8 volts and output a proportional voltage. On a breadboard I mocked it up and it looks like the scaling should be close. I plan on using a Cherry injector driver - peak and hold. Any insights? For installation in the plane I would use a small header tank with a float (from a holley) fed by low pressure pump from main tanks, with EFI pump in the header tank, and fuel return to the header tank. High pressure (oh wow, 10 PSI!!) would be confined to the short line from the pump to the throttle body. From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 6 09:27:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15946 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:58 -0400 Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15943 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:57 -0400 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jQGEa14351 (4569) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.51d821a1.252ca83d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:25 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #562 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Earlier Haltech units used engine RPM, MAP, TPS, air inlet and engine temperature sensors and ran fine! That is all you should need to get going. Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 6 12:47:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18814 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:47:38 -0400 Received: from tmpil001.tmp.allied.com (tmpil001.tmp.allied.com [198.80.19.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18811 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:47:36 -0400 Received: from tmpex901.wins.allied.com ([131.127.249.134]) by tmpil001.tmp.allied.com with SMTP id JAA05504 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:47:34 -0700 Received: from 131.127.249.102 by tmpex901.wins.allied.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 06 Oct 1999 09:47:34 -0700 Received: by tmpcn102.allied.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:47:34 -0700 Message-Id: <63DBC6BC8035D311AF570008C739748EFE8013@torex169.tor.allied.com> From: "Kavanagh, Jason" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: IAC valve and motor body needed Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:47:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm searching for an idle air control valve and motor body. The valve is the GM type used in the '88 Celebrity: o-ring style; bolt-on; in-line 4 pin connector. It is Borg-Warner model #21755. The motor body is the one supplied by Electromotive, part number 81112. Does anyone have these laying around and wants to part with them? Jay not currently subscribed, please respond directly From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 6 13:58:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19717 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:58:55 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19714 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:58:53 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.144] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11YvKi-0006kFC for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <013201bf1025$592cb600$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: FI for Mini Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:03:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, My two cents here after finishing off a FI system for a Honda. I did this incrementally with a minimum of sensors to start with. What you are really interested in is calculating at any RPM the amount of air that will flow into the cylinders at any RPM. To determine the flow and therefore the air mass you need to know the pressure outside the throttle plate and the pressure on the other side of the throttle plate inside the manifold (MAP). If you assume standard pressure and temperature you end up with only needing MAP. An O2 sensor helps here for setting up a volumetric efficiency table. Calculate the amount of fuel the engine will need for 14.7:1 air fuel ratio given cylinder size and injector size. This is your starting point and is usually a number in milliseconds that you convert to timer ticks so your micro can program a counter to trip on and off the injector. This value assumes 100% volumetric efficiency. i.e. when the intake valve closes and the piston is a BDC the airpressure inside the cylinder is atomospheric. (almost never happens except at cranking with throttle wide open and cranking is a special case) Next determine the ratio of MAP/MAPWOT. Assume MAPWOT is the same as atmospheric pressure (emperically it's usually 1/2" Hg less than Atmospheric (30.50"Hg)). You can also determine MAPWOT when processor first starts up before engine cranking begins; MAP == MAPWOT. This ratio, always less than 1, is a quick way of calculating the mass of the air being pushed into the intake manifold by the external air pressure. Remember, the engine doesn't really suck in the air. It creates a low pressure zone and the higher external air pressure pushes the air in to fill the low pressure zone. Just like our weather systems. The difference in air pressure determines how fast the air moves and air always flows from a high pressure zone to a low pressure zone. (Can anyone spell hurricane?). Now, because air has mass, it doesn't start moving right away and doesn't stop immediately either. At idle RPM the piston is moving slowly so the change in MAP is also slow. This means with a closed throttle and low MAP (10"Hg) not a lot of air gets into the cylinder. The air movement has a chance to slow down and stop moving before the next cylinder intake valve opens. At high RPM the piston creates this low pressure area much faster. Although the throttle may be totally open, and there is a small difference in MAP verses MAPWOT, the air is moving quickly and doesn't have a chance to stop moving before the next cylinder needs air so each cylinder is filled with more air molecules. Therefore the amount of air that gets into the cylinder at any RPM is called Volumetric Efficiency and is somewhat independent of Throttle position. You can use 200RPM steps and a single dimensional table that needs to be calculated for VE. Values range from about 0.3 at idle to 0.8 at WOT for street engines and can exceed 1.0 for race engines with wild CAMs. So the formula is PulseWidth = FuelAirRatio * (Map/MAPWOT) * VE[RPM]; This works but doesn't handle acceleration very well because the opening/closing of the throttle can lean/richen the mixture before the math catches up. So to make the engine drivable, it's a good idea to use a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) to add an enrichment parameter to the formula based on both absolute throttle position and change in the TPS (dTPS). You'll also find you need to use a different FuelAirRatio for idle verses cranking verses running verses WOT. A couple of extra points here. Air temperature changes the density of the air so an air temperature sensor will help set the mixture more precisely. An external air pressure sensor is also important because the vehicle may change altitude without the engine stopping and restarting. i.e. When you start, you know atmospheric pressure because the MAP sensor reads static air pressure before the engine starts turning. But once the engine is running you may change altitude by 5000' during a 1 hour drive. At that point the Atmospheric Pressure is considerably less than it was when the engine was started and so there is less external pressure available to push the air into the intake manifold and so for a given MAP value, the mixture will be too rich. This is why pilots always have to lean out the carburator mixture as the aircraft climbs in order to avoid fouling the spark plugs. It's really that simple but implimentation and tuning etc. is still a lot of work. Don't take it all lightly. The O2 sensor will give you a guide as to where you are but the stock auto ones are notoriously inacurate on either side of 14.7:1. A second method of determining optimum mixture at high RPM is to use Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT). A K type thermocouple inserted into the exhaust manifold as close as possible to the valves results in about 1400F at optimum power. A temperature of 1600F suggests a too lean mixture and could potentially damage the engine and a 1200F temperature is too rich. Whew! There's four months work in explained in a few paragraphs. Regards, John >>Subject: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? >> >>I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even >>heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle >>body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the >>following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few >>sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. >>Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated >>o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. > >There is a EFI Control System called the Alpha-N which calculates air flow by >measuring only engine rpm (via coil) and throttle position via a Throttle >Position sensor. Pros are simple installation and compatible with radically- >cammed engines. Cons are no closed-looped operation, inferior part-throttle >cruise metering and entire fuel map must be reprogrammed. A MAP can be >optionally >used but mainly as a input for barometric pressure for different altitudes. >This system is used for racing or heavily-modified street engines with big >cams >and low vacuum. > >Bob, Burlington, Ontario >'97 FR CC Sport, 5.2L, 3.55 SG, auto., 15.234 @ 87.26 > [snip] >------------------------------ > >I vaguely think that you only need a throttle position sensor and a map sensor >to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft position >sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual >sensor. >- -- >Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz > - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ > From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 01:02:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29564 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:02:08 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29561 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:02:07 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 01:01:59 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.12] by grolen.com id 82a0.wrk; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:01:20 EDT Message-ID: <37FC28A9.3B8DCAD1@grolen.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:59:21 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Jeep 258 Conversion References: <199910050900.FAA28549@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) > From: Mike Comai > Subject: Jeep 258 Conversion > > I am new to the list as well. I have recently been looking into an > upgrade for my AMC 258 I6. It has become clear to me that the only way to > economicly do it is to do it myself. I have looked into Howell's kit and > it looks pretty good (aside from the $1k pricetag). I called up and tried > to order just the GM -> AMC intake adapter and they would only sell it to > me with their "harness" and PROM. Here is my 1st question - They charge > $350 for their harness and I asked them why it was so expensive they said > it was due to the filter for the RPM sensor. What is the signal needed at > the computer and what kind of conditioning would I have to do to the > signal off the negative side of the coil? > > I also plan on getting an adapter machined (unless there is a better way?) Maybe there is a better way. Look for Holley's website, look for service parts, then look for the adapter. If your AMC uses a Ford style distributor, I've seen claims that the GM module can be driven off the Motocraft pickup coil. This might eliminate the special filter. > but I don't know how crucial the design is. My thought was to take the > shop the old Carb and the new TBI and have him machine me a 1" thick > plate, putting recessed holes for the plate to manifold mount bolts and > threaded holes for the TBI to plate mounts. How crucial is it to taper > the TBI hole to the manifold opening? Are sharp edges ok or does it need > to be smooth? What is the present carb (1, 2, 4bbl)? What type of tbi are you looking for (1,2,4bbl)? Look for Jason Weir's web page. He's converted a Jeep engine to GM TBI. If you look in the DIY_EFI archives there may be some good info. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ > > Last question is about the PROM. I will probably eventually write my own > prom but initially I plan on using the prom from a 4.3L GM donor (post > '87). Will it adapt to the 4.2L AMC motor ok? > > I would appreciate any help and suggestions for improving my approach as > this is a new thing for me. Again, look at Jason's page. He's got some good firsthand experience with a similar project. Shannen > > Mike Comai > 1979 Jeep CJ-5 > From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 11:19:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02273 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:19:00 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02270 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:18:56 -0400 Received: from injec.com (cgw191.ains.net.au [210.9.53.191]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24507 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:22:12 +1000 Message-ID: <37FCB9B3.ED425CBD@injec.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 01:18:11 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Up Up and away References: <199910061900.PAA20594@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

Hi All,

Recent postings regarding MAP sensors are in need of a little
massaging.

Lets start with the definition    manifold ABSOLUTE PRESSURE
means what it says. Not relative or delta but absolute.

Any ECU mapped by speed/density AUTOMATICALLY corrects
for engine load with altitude.

Question 1

How does the engine differentiate between part
throttle vacuum at sea level and full throttle at 10,000 feet ?

Answer It doesn't. There is no difference.

There is no need to check and record MAP value before startup.
As the pressure varies absolutely so should the fuel table value.

Speed density demands only RPM and MAP (air temp correction is
not mapped but mathed. same for all other basic corrections)

If the table has 16 speed values and 16 load points you will
have sufficient date to run the engine reasonably.

Pilots had to correct mixtures only with badly designed fuel systems.

The mech/injected engines had no such problem.

Phil Lamovie
Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 13:13:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03615 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:13:01 -0400 Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2002.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.202]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03612 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:12:59 -0400 Message-ID: <19991007171440.18196.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.204.55.242] by web2002.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:14:40 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Moon Subject: Introduction To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all, I'm new to the list, and thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Bob Moon, and I'm a Test Engineer at Amdahl Corporation in Sunnyvale, CA, USA. I am currently working on a fuel injection system for some motorcycles, and will possibly be basing it on the EFI332 system. The motorcycles to be converted are a 1985 GPz900, 1995 and 96 Shadow 1100C, 1981 KZ550, and 1978 GS400. I'll also likely install it on a 1968 Mustang. This should be an interesting project, as I intend to use identical base computers for all the above bikes, so the code will have to be easily adaptable to various cylinder configurations. Happy injecting, Bob Moon __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 16:34:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06671 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:34:45 -0400 Received: from mail1.cybersol.com (mail1.cybersol.com [207.142.110.135]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06667 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:34:40 -0400 Received: from alfred ([207.142.175.23]) by mail1.cybersol.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-57990U2200L100S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:34:40 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991007122920.00719824@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:29:20 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Wastegate parameters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Of all the GM ECU documents circulating on the web, none appear to contain the wastegate parameters for ECU control. My specific interest is in the '91-'93 Syclone/Typhoon, but any info would be appreciated. Thanks - Barry - Sy#26 From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 16:42:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06815 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:42:55 -0400 Received: from head.hoser.com (IDENT:eclark@ns1.hoser.com [204.233.135.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06812 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:42:54 -0400 From: eclark@hoser.com Received: from localhost (eclark@localhost) by head.hoser.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03780 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:34:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:34:53 -0500 (CDT) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: HTML posts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Could everyone please set thier email clients to send plain text. HTML is for websites. I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. - Eric From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 7 19:34:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA09834 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:34:20 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09831 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:34:18 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.68] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11ZN36-0006eqC for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <025501bf111d$69a83ba0$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Re: Up Up and away Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:40:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yikes, Phil, please turn off the HTML OK. I knew that sooner or later you'd pop in with that comment. 8-). I don't agree with you. Altitude does make a difference. I can throw a bunch of advanced Physics and Math to prove it, (I stayed up really late one night), but let's use common sense and intuition to come up with the result that Bernoulli later proved. Air is a fluid and has mass. To move air from one place to another requires force. In the case of air the force is a difference in pressure between two locations. The key element to understanding why a lower external pressure (outside the throttle plate) will move less air into the cylinder for an equivelant MAP is that the difference in air pressure results in a different air velocity. The internal combustion engine is not a static environment but one in which time plays a factor. The intake valve is open for a period of time. During that time the piston moves down and creates a low pressure area inside the cylinder. This causes the higher pressure area in the plenum to force air to move into the cylinder at a velocity dependant on the difference in pressure between the two regions. At the same time air from the atmosphere is moving past the partially open throttle plate at a velocity dependant on the atmospheric pressure and the MAP. The intake valve closes before the air pressure equalizes to the value of atmospheric pressure. Air continues to flow into the plenum past the throttle plate and the pressure would equalize to atmospheric if it were not for the next intake valve opening for the next cylinder intake stroke. So the MAP is a reflection of the velocity of the air mass flowing into the system and the velocity over time tells you how much air has actually entered the cylinder while the intake valve was open. Now because the air does have mass it doesn't stop flowing just because the valve has closed. It piles up around the intake valve and the pressure inside the manifold starts to increase at a rate faster than the difference in air pressure. When the runners are the correct length this all works together to create a sort of supercharger like puff into the next opening intake valve which actually improves the breathing of the engine. The faster the piston goes down, the more extreme the difference in pressure between the intake manifold and the inside of the cylinder and the faster the air will flow. You can simulate this with a pressure gauge and a bit of hose. Suck at the end of the hose until the gauge reads 10"Hg. and then block the hose with your tongue. If there are no leaks the pressure will stay at that value. Put a pinhole into the side of the hose and you have to continue to suck to maintain a value like 15"Hg. Suck faster and you can draw the pressure down to 10"Hg. but you're also moving more air. Now I am not saying that a Pulsewidth[MAP,RPM] table will not produce a nice clean precise fuel mixture for an engine. It does. But, the MAP and the RPM only tell you how fast the air in the intake manifold will travel into the cylinder and not how fast the replacement air moves that is drawn into the manifold past the throttle plate. Yes, on average a higher altitude will create an average lower MAP and lean off the mixture a little; but not enough simply because the Dyno runs for that MAP and RPM value had a different pressure outside the throttle plate and the replacement air moves at a higher velocity. The velocity of the airmass and the time the intake valve is open is the important part of the equation. This is why Mass Air Flow Sensors like the ones on SAABs etc have an automatic altitude compensation and work so well with Turbo Chargers; which in effect, change the pressure outside the throttle plate causing a higher velocity air flow (and a resultant higher MAP) and more air into the cylinders. Phil, a while ago you posted the comment that no one had made a case for a barometer in a vehicle. Hope this helps. Regards, John >Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 01:18:11 +1000 >From: Phil Lamovie >Subject: Re: Up Up and away > > > > >

Hi All, > >

Recent postings regarding MAP sensors are in need of a little >
massaging. > >

Lets start with the definition    manifold ABSOLUTE >PRESSURE >
means what it says. Not relative or delta but absolute. > >

Any ECU mapped by speed/density AUTOMATICALLY corrects >
for engine load with altitude. > >

Question 1 > >

How does the engine differentiate between part >
throttle vacuum at sea level and full throttle at 10,000 feet ? > >

Answer It doesn't. There is no difference. > >

There is no need to check and record MAP value before startup. >
As the pressure varies absolutely so should the fuel table value. > >

Speed density demands only RPM and MAP (air temp correction is >
not mapped but mathed. same for all other basic corrections) > >

If the table has 16 speed values and 16 load points you will >
have sufficient date to run the engine reasonably. > >

Pilots had to correct mixtures only with badly designed fuel systems. > >

The mech/injected engines had no such problem. > >

Phil Lamovie >
Injec Racing > From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 01:30:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13987 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:30:51 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA13982 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:30:49 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id pa073075 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:32:22 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991107194045.0078ecf4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:40:45 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? In-Reply-To: <199910060900.FAA13811@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 06/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even >>heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle >>body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the >>following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few >>sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. >>Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated >>o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. > >I vaguely think that you only need a throttle position sensor and a map sensor >to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft position >sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual >sensor. Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? Ade From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 01:30:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13992 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:30:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA13981 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:30:49 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id oa073074 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:32:21 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991007193258.0078ecf4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:32:58 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? In-Reply-To: <199910060900.FAA13811@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 06/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I am into minis, something a lot of americans probably won't have even >>heard of never mind seen! Up until recently minis had single point throttle >>body injection. You can pick up the inlet manifold, throttle body with the >>following sensors, The system is a MAP system. I was just wondering how few >>sensors I need to make it work. Make my own ECU and keep it simple. >>Calibration would be done on a dyno using a lap top. No need for a Heated >>o2 sensor, don't need it to learn really. > >There is a EFI Control System called the Alpha-N which calculates air flow by >measuring only engine rpm (via coil) and throttle position via a Throttle >Position sensor. Pros are simple installation and compatible with radically- >cammed engines. Cons are no closed-looped operation, inferior part-throttle >cruise metering and entire fuel map must be reprogrammed. A MAP can be >optionally >used but mainly as a input for barometric pressure for different altitudes. >This system is used for racing or heavily-modified street engines with big >cams and low vacuum. What about coolant temperature for a 'choke'? I am not bothered about closed loop stuff. I am used to carbs. I would just be nice to be able to plug a serial lead into it and tweek the mixure and the throttle pump rather than filing needles and changing the oil in the dash pot (Su carbs). Thanx, Ade From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 01:55:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA14230 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:55:24 -0400 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14227 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:55:20 -0400 Received: from amiga3k (p456-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.232.202]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA19165 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:55:15 +1300 Date: 08 Oct 99 18:53:15 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Backward 02 sensor? To: "Diy Efi" Message-ID: <1249.950T753T11333272@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I built an EGO sensor gauge using a Jaycar kit based around the LM3914. I got my sensor off a Mitubishi 3 litre v6 car. I don't know what model, as the badges were missing in the bone yard. The gauge works as expected. The sensor does not. It seems to be backwards. As I understand it, low voltages point to a lean condition and high voltages point to rich. On the car, my guage reads about 0.85v cruise and flashes to around 0.1v when you hit the throttle. I'm running it in an out of tune mini, which is running rather lean at the moment. When I pull the choke out, the voltage drops to around 0.1v. The sensor seems to respond very quickly, and does everything that I expected from reading here, except that the voltages seem to be reversed. I had it in a flame from a butane torch, and it would read very low voltages while inside the flame, and would read 0.85v while in the air or in the flame exhaust. On occasion the voltage went negative, to about -0.1v. Is this normal? Anything to worry about? The sensor is a 4 wire unit, and I couldn't find any manufacturer's name, although there is something undneith some underseal on it. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 06:57:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16536 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:57:45 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16532 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:57:34 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 4N9BQ96G; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:57:27 -0400 Message-ID: <37FDCDF7.62037D8F@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 06:56:55 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #567 References: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per > Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? If you live in 70 degree weather year round, you can get away with crank/cam position and Throttle position only, and use a simple trigger to fire injectors and/or DIS systems. A group of us fooled around with a 555 timer on a mailing list called "simpleefi", and some of the folks started to build it. Not sure what is up. This of course doesn't compensate for barometric or temperature changes. Shove a 0-5V MAF in the system and you will get some of this control. The problem with all this "simple" stuff is that there are so many things that will affect your engine's performance, two sensors and a MAF isn't going to cut it if you want mileage and performance and acceleration all year round. I agree that its not specifically necessary to have 32-bit digital electronics to achieve this, however with the technology getting smaller, faster and more reliable every day, its certainly becoming easier to use. -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 07:06:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA16583 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:06:57 -0400 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16580 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:06:54 -0400 Received: from amiga3k (p52-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.119.244]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA01424 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:06:49 +1300 Date: 09 Oct 99 00:04:15 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #567 To: "DIY_EFI Digest" In-Reply-To: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <1145.951T771T42874@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:40:45 +0100 >From: Ade + Lamb Chop >Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? >At 05:00 06/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >>I vaguely think that you only need a throttle position sensor and a map >sensor >>to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft >>position sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the >>actual sensor. >Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per >Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? If you want to do ignition from the computer, then you need to know rather accuratly. If you are going to leave the distributor, then yes, using the coil would work. Now, are you guys on the digest, or is it just me. I remember a few months ago the server got constapated and we were all switched onto the digest. I had to resign for a while, and now I'm back, but on the digest still, is everyone digesting? -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 09:40:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17693 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:40:39 -0400 Received: from guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (fwncr1-1.ncr.ec.gc.ca [199.212.18.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17690 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:40:32 -0400 Received: from etc.ec.gc.ca (mcgonneg.etc.ec.gc.ca [131.235.127.59]) by guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23840 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:41:28 GMT Message-ID: <37FE1E80.F4C84790@etc.ec.gc.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:40:33 -0700 From: Will McGonegal Organization: Environment Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Not that complicated! References: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft position >>sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual >>sensor. >Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per >Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? >Ade I'd agree, you DON'T need the crankshaft position sensor (flywheel, transfer case and the actual sensor). An input from the spark ignition will sufice (distributor? surely that's already on the engine). That's all you need to get speed. You can use timers to delay injector firings after the spark triger, if you MUST get complicated. How can I get one of those cheapy Mini injection systems in Canada?! Will McGonegal Project Engineer/Dynamometer Developer Emissions Research and Measurment Division Environment Canada From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 12:03:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19589 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:45 -0400 Received: from benatar.snurgle.org (c266492-a.lakwod1.co.home.com [24.1.8.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19586 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (fluffy@localhost) by benatar.snurgle.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26008 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:07 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #567 In-Reply-To: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > >sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual > >sensor. > > Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per > Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? No, it does. You have to have a very good accuracy (I think the minimum is 6 "steps" per revolution) because otherwise the system will get confused when the engine changes speed quickly. From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 13:28:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20368 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:28:21 -0400 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20365 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:28:20 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11867 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id KAA31777 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910081728.KAA31777@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: HTML posts To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:28:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "eclark@hoser.com" at Oct 7, 99 03:34:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Could everyone please set thier email clients to send plain text. > HTML is for websites. > I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. You aren't. It's pretty unreadable to my client. Keep it to plain text please. Orin, list admin. From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 15:52:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:52:02 -0400 Received: from megahertz.njit.edu (megahertz.njit.edu [128.235.204.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22792 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:52:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (jwi0939@localhost) by megahertz.njit.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20554 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: justin w ivan und stnt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: injectors In-Reply-To: <199910081900.PAA21846@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can anyone point me to a good source of Porsche injectors. I am looking for a stock set from a 944 turbo? They do not have to be new as I would send them out to get cleaned anyway but I am looking for an inexpensive source. The best price I have found is $68 a piece but if you can get mustang injectors for $125 for a set of 8 I think you should be able to get the 944 injectors cheaper. Also can anyone tell me the correctr way to size intercooler piping for a turbo car? Should it be the same size as the turbo outlet, Throttle body or the endcaps on the intercoolers. Anyhelp would be appreciated. Justin From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 17:21:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24362 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:21:15 -0400 Received: from oceanside.hpubs.com (oceanside.hpubs.com [209.75.19.159]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA24358 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:21:14 -0400 From: rpettibo@hpubs.com Received: by oceanside.hpubs.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 88256804.0073F867 ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:06:42 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HOWARD ENERGY To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <88256804.0080593E.00@oceanside.hpubs.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:23:30 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #568 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This conversation is very interesting to me because I rely on a wide array of sensors on my project and find that each one is necessary. I hope people do not try to invest in fuel injection with the tought of keeping it simple will keep it cheap and then I can aford to upgrade. I think this is the wrong approach to fuel injection. My experience is it cost MONEY to do it and do it correctly. The question is not so much how complicated does EFI have to be but how sophisticated. None of these sensors or triggering devices for fuel or spark management is that complicated. The value of them is in the ECM's ability to read them and through precise programming, by you or the computer defaults, modifying the fuel and spark events for best power and torque. If you truly want it simple, put on a 3310 Holley. If you want the benefits of injection spend the money and the time to install all relevant sensors, have the ability to monitor and record them, spend the time understanding what they are telling you and utilize this data to dial in the system. This is the area you will spend the most time and effort in and it will be worth it. Be sure you also invest in systems which allow you to directly interface and change programming in the computer. Based on your sensor data, RPM, LOAD (VAC), THROTTLE POSITION, O2 READING, H2O TEMP AND INLET AIR, you will be able to dial in your system at that point of engine operation. To dial in a fuel injection system you may have to dial in as many as 256 fuel and spark map points for proper operation. As a side note the most valuable tool I invested into my EFI project (515 hp, 535 lb-ft sb Chevy) is an EGT system from Autometer. I monitor at least two cylinders at all times and record all peaks. The differences between being 10% lean or rich and on the money are definitely worth the price of admission. Invest the money and time to do it right.!!!! From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 18:12:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA24854 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:12:50 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24851; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:12:49 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-11.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.75]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27948; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:12:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:12:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199910082212.RAA27948@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Message from CSH, HQ X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well CSH, HQ is back on line. Got one very good lung, (verified by X-Ray, by me). Amazing capacacity. Surgery was really tough, heart kept stopping, so got one of 2 possible lungs. Was so bad they turned anthesia was down, and I remember parts of it, that is something to be avoided, test me, on what a open heart messauge feels like. Have drop foot but down to using a cane for that, hopefully will finish clearing that out, soon. All in all, no pain. Or given enough medicicne to numb it, best part is 2 days after surgery, taken off O2, so no more pushing green bottles aroung Staff (of 7), here and eating out alll the time is getting expensive, so we bee making every effort to get back to acrcanum real soon From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 18:22:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25032 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:22:57 -0400 Received: from guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (fwncr1-1.ncr.ec.gc.ca [199.212.18.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25028 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:22:55 -0400 Received: from etc.ec.gc.ca (mcgonneg.etc.ec.gc.ca [131.235.127.59]) by guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA30895 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:23:51 GMT Message-ID: <37FE98E9.9100C2C1@etc.ec.gc.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:22:49 -0700 From: Will McGonegal Organization: Environment Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? References: <199910081900.PAA21846@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > >sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual > > >sensor. > > > > Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per > > Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? > > No, it does. You have to have a very good accuracy (I think the minimum > is 6 "steps" per revolution) because otherwise the system will get > confused when the engine changes speed quickly. I did some calculations to check into what kind of errors you'd get on your speed under constant acceleration if you used a single pulse per revolution Speed [rpm]=> V1 = 60.0 / (T1 - T0) Case 1: Engine accelerates from 600 to 6000 rpm in 0.5 seconds (no load?!) The first revolution takes 0.063597837 seconds. The speed change is 600 to 1287 rpm. With that time period you'd calculate the speed to be 943 rpm. A 27%, or 344 rpm error. After 27 revolutions (0.494977295 s) the engine turns at 5946 rpm. One more revolution (0.010000405 s) later the engine is at 6054 rpm. We calculate that speed to be 6000 rpm (1 %, or 54 rpm error) Case 2: Engine accelerates from 600 to 6000 rpm in 5 seconds (0 -60 mph?) The first revolution takes 0.092327988 seconds. The speed change is 600 to 700 rpm. With that time period you'd calculate the speed to be 650 rpm. A 7%, or 50 rpm error. After 27 revolutions (4.989990984 s) the engine turns at 5989 rpm. One more revolution (0.010009016 s) later the engine is at 6000 rpm. We calculate that speed to be 5995 rpm (0.09 %, or 5 rpm error). Since case 1 is probably not normal operation, the error there is probably acceptable. If the case 2 error is still too high for a DIYer, then one could also calculate the rate of acceleration (from two (or more) time periods) and factor that into the speed calculation to get a value that is closer to the actual speed. I tried a simple acceleration calculation which reduced the error of the 1st revolution in Case 2 to 3 rpm. More pulses per revolution will increase accuracy but do all applications need it? I think you could do it with a pulse every second revolution and have it run better then a carburetor. Will McGonegal From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 8 23:59:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA28867 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:59:57 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28864 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:59:55 -0400 Received: from ts2-006.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.6] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11Znfh-0003xP-00; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:59:50 +1000 Message-ID: <002e01bf120c$7950a8e0$06df25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: References: <199910071900.PAA05013@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:12:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi all im new to the list and need some help iv got a jap import motor, a toyota 1ggze with out the supercharger(2 litre 24V DOHC) when thay remove these, thay just cut all around the motor till it comes out so the harness gets the chop. i cant get a new harness. i cant seem to get hold of a wiring diagram for this motor. i can get the ECU for it but this is not much good to me as i cant wire it up i was thinking about the efi332 project or using a GM unit mabe as i can get the wiring for GM stuff (used to work for em ) i would have to some how reprogram the GM unit as the toyota motor is only 2 litre. any body help please!! nothing worse than having a new toy that ya cant use From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 06:06:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA31704 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 06:06:00 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA31701 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 06:05:57 -0400 Received: from richm ([195.44.206.138]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:05:15 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Not that complicated! Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:02:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000001bf123d$8358c080$8ace2cc3@richm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199910081900.PAA21846@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI Digest Friday, October 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 568 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:40:33 -0700 From: Will McGonegal Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Not that complicated! >>>to do a reasonable job of EFI. However, you WILL need the crankshaft position >>>sensor, which means you need the flywheel, transfer case and the actual >>>sensor. >>Surely it doesn't have to be *that* accurate? Why not use the coil? 2 per >>Rev should be enough, you only need speed not accurate position? >>Ade >I'd agree, you DON'T need the crankshaft position sensor (flywheel, transfer case and >the actual sensor). An input from the spark ignition will sufice (distributor? >surely that's already on the engine). Bosch LE/LE2 based systems have been taking EFi trigger signals from the ignition for years.. Don't lose sight of the big problem with mini's - siamesed ports! For those not so familiar, the head has two inlet ports which each split in two to feed two inlet valves; Cyls 1&2 are fed by one inlet tract and cyls 3&4 fed from the second. Throw the firing order into the equation, and you will appreciate the problem of mixture distribution, specially from a throttle body injection arrangement. for this reason, Mini's run with uneven mixture across the cylinders even with carbs that feed fuel into the airstream continuously. Consider what happens when you inject pulses of fuel into the airflow way back at the throttle body, synchronous with the engine cycle. This is why I believe some (if not all) TBi sytems inject 'asynchronously' (randomly?). Certainly Vauxhall/Opel Multec TBI systems inject 5 pulses per cycle to try and spread out the uneven distribution so that each cylinder gets a fighting chance of seeing reasonable mixture on average. Multipoint systems with an injector per cylinder obviously overcome most of these problems, but on the mini's siamesed ports it's difficult to physically arrange this as the port split is in the head. Don't let this put you off - Rover obviously achieve reasonable results; indeed if you 're not using the 'A' series engine, and you've got an 8-port head, then please bung this message in the bin... Good luck! Rich From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 07:21:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA32019 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:21:00 -0400 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA32014 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:20:56 -0400 Received: from amiga3k (p20-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.117.20]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA19824 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:20:47 +1300 Date: 10 Oct 99 00:17:15 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #569 To: "DIY_EFI Digest" In-Reply-To: <199910090900.FAA31194@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <1261.952T773T173340@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI Digest wrote: sorry for mangling the quotes... >> No, it does. You have to have a very good accuracy (I think the minimum >> is 6 "steps" per revolution) because otherwise the system will get >> confused when the engine changes speed quickly. >I did some calculations to check into what kind of errors you'd get on your >speed under constant acceleration if you used a single pulse per revolution >Speed [rpm]=> V1 = 60.0 / (T1 - T0) >More pulses per revolution will increase accuracy but do all applications >need it? I think you could do it with a pulse every second revolution and >have it run better then a carburetor. >Will McGonegal If you hook up to the coil, using a distributor to drive the ignition, then you get 2 pulses per revolution on 4 cyclinders, 3 from 6 cycl and 4 from 8 I think you could easily do with only the distributor as a crank position input, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT CONTROL THE IGNITION SYSTEM from the computer. If you want to do ignition timing, then those errors are going to hit you (well, I have a qualitative feeling that they will matter). -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 07:40:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA32117 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:40:04 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA32114 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:40:02 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ia073198 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:40:46 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991008210020.00788860@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:00:20 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Up Up and away In-Reply-To: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 08/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >Now I am not saying that a Pulsewidth[MAP,RPM] table will not produce a nice >clean precise fuel mixture for an engine. It does. But, the MAP and the RPM >only tell you how fast the air in the intake manifold will travel into the >cylinder and not how fast the replacement air moves that is drawn into the >manifold past the throttle plate. Yes, on average a higher altitude will >create an average lower MAP and lean off the mixture a little; but not enough >simply because the Dyno runs for that MAP and RPM value had a different pressure >outside the throttle plate and the replacement air moves at a higher velocity. Right you have sold me, BUT (very big but) How bad is the effect? It cannot be that bad other wise cars with Carbs would suffer problems wouldn't they? Unless you are wrong :-) Ade From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 09:38:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00317 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:38:37 -0400 Received: from cyberlynk.com (cyberlynk.com [207.104.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00314 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:38:35 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cyberlynk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28717; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 06:40:17 -0700 Received: from UNKNOWN(207.104.52.116), claiming to be "ppp516mer.cyberlynk.com" via SMTP by cyberlynk.com, id smtpda28714; Sat Oct 9 06:40:08 1999 From: garfield@cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Lungs Online Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 06:42:39 -0700 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <381c459c.127433342@mail.cyberlynk.com> References: <199910090900.FAA31194@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199910090900.FAA31194@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id JAA00315 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 05:00:01 -0400, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (DIY_EFI Digest) wrote: >Well CSH, HQ is back on line. >Got one very good lung, (verified by X-Ray, by me). >Amazing capacacity. Major congrats, Bruce! And it sounds like you had a bit of an ordeal there, eh? Oh well, that sorta operation would stop anyone's heart. :) Good to have ya back, and kickin. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 13:04:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02087 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:04:55 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02084 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:04:54 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ma073202 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:05:30 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991009131024.00789308@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 13:10:24 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: American engine sizes In-Reply-To: <199910090900.FAA31194@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >i would have to some how reprogram the GM unit as the toyota motor is only >2 litre. Sorry guys not much to do with Efi but... This make me giggle. Us people who are into minis say WOW... when sombody squeezes a 1600honda engine in a Mini The biggest engine you see in any 'average' car in this country is a 2 litre it is not until you start talking about top of the range BMWs and other BIG fast stuff that it gets much over near 3 litres!!! BTW a std mini engine is 1.3 litres and the first ones were 848cc!! Ade From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 13:04:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02097 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:04:58 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02094 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:04:56 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id la073201 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:05:30 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991009131024.00789308@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 13:10:24 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: American engine sizes In-Reply-To: <199910090900.FAA31194@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >i would have to some how reprogram the GM unit as the toyota motor is only >2 litre. Sorry guys not much to do with Efi but... This make me giggle. Us people who are into minis say WOW... when sombody squeezes a 1600honda engine in a Mini The biggest engine you see in any 'average' car in this country is a 2 litre it is not until you start talking about top of the range BMWs and other BIG fast stuff that it gets much over near 3 litres!!! BTW a std mini engine is 1.3 litres and the first ones were 848cc!! Ade From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 9 19:19:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05055 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:19:01 -0400 Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05052 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:19:00 -0400 From: Bja1078@aol.com Received: from Bja1078@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jIJQl4CmA_ (4255) for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.4ce875a0.25312754@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:18:44 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 42 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 10/9/99 3:59:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Hi , I'm new to this mailing list. I've been reading some of your messages on how simple a fuel injection system can be. Just before I graduated H. S. in 98 my school auto program put efi on our race car. Its a 82 regal with a 454, Th. 400 trans and 3.73 gears in the rear. We were running low 12's and then with the efi took the car in to the 11.50 area. this car has never really been tuned to its potential it only see's 5200 rpm through to traps and it shifts out of 1st and 2nd around 6300. Its Holleys Pro-Jection system. You can find info on the web at Holley's web page. All it has for inputs are temp, tps, and a tach sig. I believe the temp sensor only controls the idle solenoid and a/f below 165 degrees. Theirs 5 or 6 knobs to control the mix and its real easy to set up. Brian Just in case anyone cares I work at a Pontiac Cadillac dealership as a drivability quy! From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 10:50:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11470 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:50:42 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11467 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:50:33 -0400 Received: from injec.com (cgw159.ains.net.au [210.9.53.159]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02224 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:53:42 +1000 Message-ID: <3800A799.78E9F3A7@injec.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:50:01 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re:Up Up and Away References: <199910080900.FAA15456@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi John et al, sorry 'bout the html had to reload NT (i moved the mouse)and got all of the default settings. Now to buisness. The abundance of calculations offered is in no way justified by the starting assumptions. The tribology of gaseous flows is both relevant and irrelevant in the same breath. The approach to fuel injection as a science of calculations is not a valid one if you accept that the simplest solution is the best. The "manifold absolute pressure" is by it's very explanation a measure of the environment INSIDE the manifold. It has no concern with the outside weather conditions ONLY the inside. The original question remains unanswered. How can the engine tell... Lets take an engine on the dyno at 35% throttle at 3000 rpm. Air temp 20 deg C pressure in manifold 70 kPa Absolute. We adjust our fuel and spark table to give target A/F ratio of 13.5:1 with MBT as the spark setting. I will assume that at this time all the relevant perturbations of the air column are taking place in all of their Bernoullian Wonderment. The very simple point to be had here is that next time the same air temp and pressure are found at the same rpm then the same stored values for fuel and spark will of course produce the same A/F ratio. Note how I completely left out the throttle position. It may be that at 15,000 feet ASL the WOT pressure will be only 70 kPa. If the engine is at 3000 rpm and the air temp is the same the Volumetric efficiency of the engine is the same. The real test for flow is NOT across the butterfly !!! It is of course a variable device where as the inlet port is not. The speed of the air through the inlet port will of course be the same at the same manifold ABSOLUTE pressure and temp and rpm. Carbys care about air velocity EFI couldn't give a rats arse. This is very relevant with plenum type manifolds some what diff with individual trumpets as the mass of the External fraction causes the MBT to be found at slightly shorter trumpet lengths. As all of the mechanical components are bound by their shape in the repetition of their function so is the ecu bound to give the same values for fuel and spark. The point of measuring the pressure is to know what map point to use and how much interpolation b/w points is required. There is absolutely no need to calculate the mass of the atmosphere on Earth and then divide that by the ratio of volume of inlet manifold. Though it would work. Please note the total lack of Patents for Altitude correction of aircraft fuel injection computers. Also total lack of altitude sensors on all Ford and GM vehicles. I suppose they don't have mountains in the USA. My company has also supplied ECUs for Aircraft that have flown from England to Australia, film is available from National Geographic. I promise they were all fitted with absolute sensors. The engine were all dynoed on a thirty foot tower (they had very big props about 33 feet span) 650 hp at sea level)) and then flew half way around the world. Hope the simplicity of it is not too hard to fathom. Phil Injec Racing Developments From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12304 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12286 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id fa073221 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:45 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010143101.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:31:01 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571 In-Reply-To: <199910100900.FAA09776@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 10/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Hi , I'm new to this mailing list. I've been reading some of your messages on >how simple a fuel injection system can be. Just before I graduated H. S. in >98 my school auto program put efi on our race car. Its a 82 regal with a 454, >Th. 400 trans and 3.73 gears in the rear. We were running low 12's and then >with the efi took the car in to the 11.50 area. this car has never really >been tuned to its potential it only see's 5200 rpm through to traps and it >shifts out of 1st and 2nd around 6300. Its Holleys Pro-Jection system. You >can find info on the web at Holley's web page. All it has for inputs are >temp, tps, and a tach sig. I believe the temp sensor only controls the idle >solenoid and a/f below 165 degrees. Theirs 5 or 6 knobs to control the mix >and its real easy to set up. In theory (dons flame proof jacket) Carbs can be every bit as good as fuel injection. It is just that carbs have a little bit of an art to setting them up. FI you just plug a lap top in and correct what needs correcting Like that. Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12305 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12291 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id da073219 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:44 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010142655.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:26:55 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 In-Reply-To: <199910091900.PAA02919@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >I think you could easily do with only the distributor as a crank position >input, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT CONTROL THE IGNITION SYSTEM from the computer. If >you want to do ignition timing, then those errors are going to hit you (well, >I have a qualitative feeling that they will matter). If you are controling the igntion system you would have a VERY accurate CPS so you would just take the speed reading for the Fuel injection from the CPS. The whole point of using the coil is that you don't have a CPS in the first place as the engine was orriginally a carbed engine and the CPS is expensive for minis at the moment. Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12307 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12290 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ca073218 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:43 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010142655.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:26:55 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 In-Reply-To: <199910091900.PAA02919@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >I think you could easily do with only the distributor as a crank position >input, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT CONTROL THE IGNITION SYSTEM from the computer. If >you want to do ignition timing, then those errors are going to hit you (well, >I have a qualitative feeling that they will matter). If you are controling the igntion system you would have a VERY accurate CPS so you would just take the speed reading for the Fuel injection from the CPS. The whole point of using the coil is that you don't have a CPS in the first place as the engine was orriginally a carbed engine and the CPS is expensive for minis at the moment. Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12308 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12288 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id aa073216 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:42 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010142319.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:23:19 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 In-Reply-To: <199910091900.PAA02919@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Not that complicated! >Bosch LE/LE2 based systems have been taking EFi trigger signals from the >ignition for years.. That is good to know. >Don't lose sight of the big problem with mini's - siamesed ports! For those >not so familiar, the head has two inlet ports which each split in two to >feed two inlet valves; Cyls 1&2 are fed by one inlet tract and cyls 3&4 fed >from the second. Throw the firing order into the equation, and you will >appreciate the problem of mixture distribution, specially from a throttle >body injection arrangement. for this reason, Mini's run with uneven mixture >across the cylinders even with carbs that feed fuel into the airstream >continuously. Consider what happens when you inject pulses of fuel into the >airflow way back at the throttle body, synchronous with the engine cycle. >This is why I believe some (if not all) TBi sytems inject 'asynchronously' >(randomly?). Certainly Vauxhall/Opel Multec TBI systems inject 5 pulses per >cycle to try and spread out the uneven distribution so that each cylinder >gets a fighting chance of seeing reasonable mixture on average. Carbs manage it acceptably I was thinking of just streaming fuel in the same way carbs do. After all Tbi is just a carb with an injector controled by a processor rather than 'machincal means' >Don't let this put you off - Rover obviously achieve reasonable results; >indeed if you 're not using the 'A' series engine, and you've got an 8-port >head, then please bung this message in the bin... SU carbs have been doing it for 40 years!!! 8 port!! Don't be silly!! :-) Mind you there are the Arden heads 8 port X flow/8 Valve and KAD 16V alloy heads But if I had that sort of money I would need to ask you lot would I!!! Thanx, Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:01:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12306 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12287 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ea073220 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:45 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010143101.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:31:01 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571 In-Reply-To: <199910100900.FAA09776@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 10/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Hi , I'm new to this mailing list. I've been reading some of your messages on >how simple a fuel injection system can be. Just before I graduated H. S. in >98 my school auto program put efi on our race car. Its a 82 regal with a 454, >Th. 400 trans and 3.73 gears in the rear. We were running low 12's and then >with the efi took the car in to the 11.50 area. this car has never really >been tuned to its potential it only see's 5200 rpm through to traps and it >shifts out of 1st and 2nd around 6300. Its Holleys Pro-Jection system. You >can find info on the web at Holley's web page. All it has for inputs are >temp, tps, and a tach sig. I believe the temp sensor only controls the idle >solenoid and a/f below 165 degrees. Theirs 5 or 6 knobs to control the mix >and its real easy to set up. In theory (dons flame proof jacket) Carbs can be every bit as good as fuel injection. It is just that carbs have a little bit of an art to setting them up. FI you just plug a lap top in and correct what needs correcting Like that. Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 13:02:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12334 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:02:03 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12289 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:01:53 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ba073217 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:02:42 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991010142319.0078a3c4@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:23:19 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 In-Reply-To: <199910091900.PAA02919@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Subject: RE: How completcated does Efi HAVE to be? Not that complicated! >Bosch LE/LE2 based systems have been taking EFi trigger signals from the >ignition for years.. That is good to know. >Don't lose sight of the big problem with mini's - siamesed ports! For those >not so familiar, the head has two inlet ports which each split in two to >feed two inlet valves; Cyls 1&2 are fed by one inlet tract and cyls 3&4 fed >from the second. Throw the firing order into the equation, and you will >appreciate the problem of mixture distribution, specially from a throttle >body injection arrangement. for this reason, Mini's run with uneven mixture >across the cylinders even with carbs that feed fuel into the airstream >continuously. Consider what happens when you inject pulses of fuel into the >airflow way back at the throttle body, synchronous with the engine cycle. >This is why I believe some (if not all) TBi sytems inject 'asynchronously' >(randomly?). Certainly Vauxhall/Opel Multec TBI systems inject 5 pulses per >cycle to try and spread out the uneven distribution so that each cylinder >gets a fighting chance of seeing reasonable mixture on average. Carbs manage it acceptably I was thinking of just streaming fuel in the same way carbs do. After all Tbi is just a carb with an injector controled by a processor rather than 'machincal means' >Don't let this put you off - Rover obviously achieve reasonable results; >indeed if you 're not using the 'A' series engine, and you've got an 8-port >head, then please bung this message in the bin... SU carbs have been doing it for 40 years!!! 8 port!! Don't be silly!! :-) Mind you there are the Arden heads 8 port X flow/8 Valve and KAD 16V alloy heads But if I had that sort of money I would need to ask you lot would I!!! Thanx, Ade From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 17:45:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14842 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:45:05 -0400 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14839 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:45:03 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27871 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:45:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id OAA27857 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910102145.OAA27857@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: Up Up and Away To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:45:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3800A799.78E9F3A7@injec.com> from "Phil Lamovie" at Oct 11, 99 00:50:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Note how I completely left out the throttle position. It may be that > at 15,000 feet ASL the WOT pressure will be only 70 kPa. If the engine > is at 3000 rpm and the air temp is the same the Volumetric efficiency > of the engine is the same. What about effects on exhaust back pressure caused by lower barometric... I'd think it would reduce the residual pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke, allowing more air in for a given MAP. Orin. From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 20:11:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA16717 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:11:39 -0400 Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16713 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:11:38 -0400 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jMKPa08114 (3937) for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.b7c8d5e7.25328519@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:11:05 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #572 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does the Holley system also control the spark curve? Fuel management is just one of the fucnctions in the Holley system that I'm familiar with.. (4di?) There are significant strengths on the spark management side that would be hard to accomplish with points and advance weights.... Mike V > In theory (dons flame proof jacket) Carbs can be every bit as good as fuel > injection. It is just that carbs have a little bit of an art to setting > them up. FI you just plug a lap top in and correct what needs correcting > Like that. > From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 20:33:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA17079 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:33:50 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17076 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:33:44 -0400 Received: from ts2-041.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.41] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11aTPH-0006bz-00; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:33:40 +1000 Message-ID: <002d01bf1382$06ade880$29df25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: Subject: 1227808 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:46:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF13D5.D6FB04C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF13D5.D6FB04C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i can get a delco 1227808 and think theres a old kit just down the road = for a eprom programer thing=20 is this what i need to reprogram the delco to run a toyota motor? thanx ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF13D5.D6FB04C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

i can get a delco 1227808 and think theres a old kit = just down=20 the road  for a eprom programer thing
is this what i need to reprogram the delco to run a = toyota=20 motor?
thanx
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF13D5.D6FB04C0-- From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 10 20:59:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA17345 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:59:38 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f274.hotmail.com [209.185.130.190]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA17342 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:59:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 78319 invoked by uid 0); 11 Oct 1999 00:52:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19991011005236.78318.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 216.68.31.31 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:52:35 PDT X-Originating-IP: [216.68.31.31] From: "Bill the arcstarter" To: phil@injec.com, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re:Up Up and Away Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:52:35 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Phil Lamovie wrote: >The very simple point to be had here is that next time the same air >temp and pressure are found at the same rpm then the same stored >values for fuel and spark will of course produce the same A/F ratio. Thats how I see it. >Note how I completely left out the throttle position. It may be that >at 15,000 feet ASL the WOT pressure will be only 70 kPa. If the engine is >at 3000 rpm and the air temp is the same the Volumetric efficiency of the >engine is the same. For systems equipped with either mass air flow or MAP, my understanding is that the TPS is only used for limp-home mode, determination of WOT vs run vs idle states, and enrichment/leanment during rapid transitions. >Please note the total lack of Patents for Altitude correction of >aircraft fuel injection computers. Also total lack of altitude sensors on >all Ford and GM vehicles. I suppose they don't have mountains in the USA. Hmm. Could the O2 sensor closed loop operation account for this? Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine is stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes that the car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable thing). I know for a fact that some outboard marine engine controllers do this. -Bill '84 Suburban w/ 350 w/ Holley-4Di ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 04:20:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21309 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 04:20:50 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21306 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 04:20:48 -0400 Received: from richm ([195.44.200.153]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:20:01 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #572 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:03:54 +0100 Message-ID: <000001bf13c1$22801b20$99c82cc3@richm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199910101900.PAA13245@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 14:23:19 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 At 15:00 09/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >>Don't lose sight of the big problem with mini's - siamesed ports! For those >>not so familiar, the head has two inlet ports which each split in two to >>feed two inlet valves; Cyls 1&2 are fed by one inlet tract and cyls 3&4 fed >>from the second. Throw the firing order into the equation, and you will >>appreciate the problem of mixture distribution, specially from a throttle >>body injection arrangement. for this reason, Mini's run with uneven mixture >>across the cylinders even with carbs that feed fuel into the airstream >>continuously. Consider what happens when you inject pulses of fuel into the >>airflow way back at the throttle body, synchronous with the engine cycle. >>This is why I believe some (if not all) TBi sytems inject 'asynchronously' >>(randomly?). Certainly Vauxhall/Opel Multec TBI systems inject 5 pulses per >>cycle to try and spread out the uneven distribution so that each cylinder >>gets a fighting chance of seeing reasonable mixture on average. >Carbs manage it acceptably I was thinking of just streaming fuel in the >same way carbs do. After all Tbi is just a carb with an injector controled >by a processor rather than 'machincal means' Ade, The point I was trying to make (and it's pretty significant), is that you can't 'continuosly stream' from a TBI injector, it's either on or off, it squirts defined amounts of fuel at predefined intervals. Theoretically, you could turn on and off a lot more times in the engine cycle to approach the carb 'model', but I think if you use a big enough injector to cope with high load flow, you'd run into calibration problems at low speed because of the short 'on' period. I've been trying to confirm if Rover use the same principle as GM, ie. asynchronous injection - no answer yet.... ps. take your point about Arden/KAD heads; just covering myself in case I was up the wrong tree. Rich. From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 04:51:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21518 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 04:51:46 -0400 Received: from teapot32.domain8.bigpond.com (teapot32.domain8.bigpond.com [139.134.5.180]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA21515 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 04:51:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by teapot32.domain8.bigpond.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ya195986 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:48:51 +1000 Received: from DC-100-57.bpb.bigpond.com ([203.40.100.57]) by mail8.bigpond.com (Claudes-Uncompromising-MailRouter V2.5 17/548951); 11 Oct 1999 18:48:51 Message-ID: <003b01bf13c5$f6525860$476428cb@jetech> From: "Vinny Jaeger" To: References: <199910101900.PAA13245@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #572 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:49:57 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, (10/11/1999 for those in US) From: Ken Thompson kent@superflow.com.au Subject: 1. Free CAD drawing package. 2. More O2 for that altitude fire. "Phil + John" 3. Engine breathing and air flow in general. 4. Windows 2000 warning. Hello All, ******************* FREE CAD *************************** "PC Authority Magazine" (Australia) www.pcauthority.com.au gave away a full copy of TurboCAD version 5 in the June 99 issue. The magazine costs $5.95 ($3.80 US?) and for $6.00 US a swag of extra libraries can be purchased from the manufacturer. PC Authority do provide back issues, so it is still available. I did not go for the extra libraries because we use DesignCAD www.designcad.com Our neighbour in the next building over has been using TurboCAD since this freebie came along and they reckon that it is pretty good. Another associate just paid $6,500.00 AU or so for AutoCAD and I really can't see the value. Our DesignCAD Pro 2000, does more with less clicks than I see AutoCAD being able to do. *************** More O2 please ****************************** 33 foot propellers? That must be one big mother of an aircraft? But 650 hp doesn't sound like enough to drive even the starter motor of such a monster. ONLY JOKING! That 10,058 mm prop must be part of your test stand, or your pilot must sit about 22 feet off the ground in his / her cock pit? I have seen many systems where engines are mounted on platforms, but surely 30 feet above sea level is not much of an altitude simulation? I guess a good reason for using a 30 foot tower, is that "it was already there" and you did not have to build it, or better still, pay for it.? I would have thought that testing a little closer to ground zero would have been more convenient, given the torque / speed envelope available at the crank? or gearbox? I can think of easier ways to do that job. But if the tower was already there and you did not have to pay for the tower / props etc, then the solution used was quite fine. Come on Phil, you have got me tuned. You have wet my appetite with a small volume of data attached to a tall prop story. A 30 foot centre height with an extra 16 foot 6 six inches above that, to the blade tip. Watch out all you low flying black birds, Momma Mixmaster is coming to get you! WHY 33 FOOT PROPS? Between yourself, Foetinger, Carl Schenk and Froude, there must have been a prettier way? The subject that is being tugged at here, won't be turned into truth by personal opinion. An over night calculation won't hold up. There are enough papers available on this subject, if used in an open fire, to warm a home in Antarctica for the next 10,000 years. A friend, Ray Hall www.turbofast.com.au knows all about the effects of altitude on internal combustion engines. Rays firm fits turbo chargers, intercoolers, aneroids etc to new commercial diesel Toyota Landcruisers, which are then exported to Indonesia, for the sole purpose of carrying gear, parts, men etc from sea level, up the side of a 15,000 foot mountain. This is real mountain goat stuff. Last time I looked, Ray had some interesting data on his site on this altitude question. TURBOFAST also builds 1500 HP race boats that have won most races they have entered, including US and European races. Check it out for yourself. *************** Any decent dynamometer data system will correct for Temperature (I like transducer in the manifold = MAT), barometric pressure and of course humidity. We do not directly worry whether testing is carried out on top of Everest or below sea level at the bottom of the Kalgoorlie Super Pit. Knowing the test cell air temperature is great, but knowing MAT is better. Your lecturers will refer you to the right papers, or the SAE data base is the place to start when seeking good data on this subject. ************* Engine Breathing and Wave Action ********************** Go to ftp://ftp.superflow.com.au and download "Dynomation.ZIP". Then print the users manual. There you will find a reference on wave action / induction tuning, that will most assuredly help (us) all to better understand engine breathing. Can also be downloaded at www.audietech.com On the FTP site there is also an interesting program called "SpringMaster" which is designed to reveal the RPM at which springs will surge and valves will bounce. ***************** Windows Warning ************************** We Australians have it, you Americans are soon to get it. When one buys a Win2000 product here, it comes with a time bomb. After installation, one is permitted to fire up one's own software but 50 times, then over it falls. The cure for this circus is to log on to the Microsoft site and press the "register now" icon within the new program that you have just paid dearly for. You see Bill wants to take a good look at your registry (I guess)? This is a question and NOT a statement as you can see. If we Aussies go like sheep to the slaughter, without objection, then you all best get ready for some of what we've got. ******************** Our Reply to Billy Boy********************* We have "Red Hat version 6", running on one workstation and "freeBSD" on a server. I have just ordered a free SUN SOLARIS operating system (for Intel). www.sun.com/solaris/freesolaris.html and will soon start testing the FREE "Star Office" office suite, which is also sourced from SUN. It appears as though, STAR will do all that Microsoft can do, but at very much "the right price". Soon we will no longer have to put up with Bill and his bull. When interfacing a PC to a remote logger / control system via TCP/IP, who cares what operating system is used? So long as it is reliable and fast! Regards, Ken. Superflow Engineering is located within the Commonwealth of Australia, we have no relationships with any foreign companies. > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:50:01 +1000 > From: Phil Lamovie > Subject: Re:Up Up and Away > > Hi John et al, From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 11:43:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25768 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:43:58 -0400 Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25765 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:43:57 -0400 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jIYMa10996 (3879) for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.bdf8224c.25335f9a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:43:22 EDT Subject: Distributor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu << There are significant strengths on the spark management side that would be hard to accomplish with points and advance weights.... Mike V >> Yeah, it's called a magnetic pickup that fires a solid state coil controller, and a vacuum advance for part throttle cruise. From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 12:30:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA26773 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:30:34 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26770 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:30:33 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.151] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11ahjA-0006dXC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01c601bf1401$6782a040$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Re:Up Up and Away Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:56:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Phil, > >Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:50:01 +1000 >From: Phil Lamovie >Subject: Re:Up Up and Away > >Hi John et al, > sorry 'bout the html had to reload NT (i moved the mouse)and got all >of the default settings. I've pressed a few wrong buttons too. ;-) >Please note the total lack of Patents for Altitude correction of >aircraft fuel injection computers. Also total lack of altitude sensors >on all Ford and GM vehicles. I suppose they don't have mountains in >the >USA. That GM and Ford don't use them is irrelevant. They also didn't use overhead CAM engines until the Japanese and European automakers started impacting their bottom line. Once fuel prices changed in the US their attitude did too. Most California polution testing is done close to sea level and they have the most stringent specifications. The tests are done at idle while the O2 sensor is in closed loop mode. A rich mixture at Full Torque RPM is never tested for and most vehicles don't run in that mode anyway. An engine idling at a high RPM because it was tuned at sea level but tested at 5000' ASL would be sent to the shop where the engine would be adjusted to pass the tests at that altitude. An inability to patent basic physics is not an indication of the lack of basic physics. > >My company has also supplied ECUs for Aircraft that have flown from >England to Australia, film is available from National Geographic. >I promise they were all fitted with absolute sensors. The engine were >all dynoed on a thirty foot tower (they had very big props about 33 >feet >span) 650 hp at sea level)) and then flew half way around the world. The reduction gear would have to keep the propellor tip speed below the speed of sound and in either case the aircraft propellor is primarily interested in best fuel economy at maximum torque - not maxium horsepower. As I said before, it's not that the MAP-RPM doesn't or won't work; it's just not the optimum solution and the pilot that might have to land his aircraft 100 metres from the runway with empty tanks would prefer the optimum solution. > >Hope the simplicity of it is not too hard to fathom. >Phil I think I'll leave this discussion rather than retort on simplicity verses complexity and perhaps we can just agree to disagree. Regards, John From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 12:57:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27623 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:57:29 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27620 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:57:28 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id qa073336 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:58:20 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991011133719.0167f7e0@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:37:19 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #572 In-Reply-To: <199910101900.PAA13245@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry about the repeated messages.... Think I have fixed the problem now.... Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 12:59:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27722 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:59:49 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27703 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:59:44 -0400 Received: from injec.com (cgw191.ains.net.au [210.9.53.191]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06268 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:02:45 +1000 Message-ID: <3802175F.37319D11@injec.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 02:59:11 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY EFI Subject: Up Up and Away Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine > is stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes > > that the car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable > thing). I know for a fact that some outboard marine engine > controllers do this. If you map the engine properly and assume that it's wear rate is zero then you can infer barometric pressure from your manifold absolute pressure/rpm/tps/air temp association. if 30% tps at 3000 rpm at 20 deg C produces 35 kPa instead of 38 kPa MAP previously you could safely state that there is going to be a storm soon as the barometer is down 30 points or 3 kPa (30 millibars) The marine engines will go blind if they don't stop it. Comparative states of rpm vs MAP and TPS are used for error checking of sensors, Acc enrichment, gear selection and so on. Regards Phil Lamovie Injec Racing developments From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 13:12:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28095 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:12:00 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28089 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:11:51 -0400 Received: from ts2-006.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.6] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11abog-0001dd-00; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:32:26 +1000 Message-ID: <00b501bf13cd$49e60ce0$06df25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: Subject: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:44:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF1421.19CCED40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF1421.19CCED40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable silly as it sounds but dose my multi point fire all injectors at the = same time or only as each valve opens??=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF1421.19CCED40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
silly as it sounds but dose my multi point fire = all=20 injectors at the same time or only as each valve opens??=20
------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF1421.19CCED40-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 13:25:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28354 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:25:38 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28350 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:25:33 -0400 Received: from injec.com (cgw191.ains.net.au [210.9.53.191]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06279 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:28:33 +1000 Message-ID: <38021D6C.8BA2C54E@injec.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:25:00 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #573 References: <199910110900.FAA21544@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > What about effects on exhaust back pressure caused by lower > barometric... I'd think it would reduce the residual pressure > in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke, allowing > more air in for a given MAP. > Orin. Except for the fact that back pressure of the exhaust is not a function of the outside pressure as much as a function of exhaust manifold configuration and pipe diameter/length/rotation. Exhaust pipes are too long and the exhaust event too short for the atmosphere to effect it much. The entire event at 280 degrees of duration at 3000 rpm is 280/360/20 msec or 15.55 msec. And of course this is no flow for the first or last 20 degrees of cam lost in taking up the slack. now 220/360/20 or 12.22 msec The in cylinder pressure at the time of the exhaust opening would be in the order of 250 to 400 psi. (varies a lot with engine load.) As for allowing "more air in" the air flow is a function of the pressure differential between the in cylinder volume and the plenum chamber pressure. The piston has been past top dead and the chamber has been purged of exhaust. In fact about this time some new air fuel mixture is following the exhaust gas out the still open exhaust valve courtesy of a small "low pressure" event in the exhaust manifold. This pressure event is exhaust gas speed/density/temp related though not immune to air pressure out side the effects would be more mechanical as the "spring" value of the air would alter and this would detune the tertiary part of the wave trap. Phil Lamovie Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 13:44:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28591 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:44:48 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28588 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:44:45 -0400 Received: from injec.com (cgw191.ains.net.au [210.9.53.191]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06293 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:47:52 +1000 Message-ID: <380221F2.DC8EADE6@injec.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:44:18 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 33 foot propellers? That must be one big mother of an aircraft? References: <199910110900.FAA21544@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 'Tis a Vickers Vimmy 1918 Model Bomber 2 x 454 chevy big blocks with from memory a 4:1 redux giving about 2500 ft/lbs or about 90 mph flat stick One section of the trip was aborted due to 100 mph head winds !! they were flying backwards !!! The test stand was for US certification of the redux which was required to be "bench" tested for 30 hours. The aircraft had to be registered somewhere and as it was designed in England and built in Australia it seemed only fair to register it in the country that has the most lax aviation rules. The prop had to be used to "simulate" the cyclic loading on the box The engines were mounted between the upper and lower wings about 20 feet off the ground. The tower was built and paid for by National Geographic funding. (so it was free) The size of the props was "calculated" on the predicted available torque at rated rpm. The "engineers got it about 25% wrong. (they guessed too low) Net result was that the pilots used the extra (non certified) power trying to out run a monsoon and busted a crank. Apparently this caused " some noticeable vibration" Regards Phil Lamovie Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 16:14:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA31696 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:14:44 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f283.hotmail.com [209.185.130.222]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA31689 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:14:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 92372 invoked by uid 0); 11 Oct 1999 20:01:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19991011200122.92371.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 129.21.10.155 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:01:21 PDT X-Originating-IP: [129.21.10.155] From: "Steve Leonard" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Wanted: Haltech F3 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:01:21 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu My Haltech F3 is terminal, anybody have a F3 they want to sell? regards Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 16:42:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA32461 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:42:34 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA32456 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:42:30 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ia073354 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:43:30 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991011205431.0078ad14@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:54:31 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #573 In-Reply-To: <199910110900.FAA21544@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 11/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >Ade, >The point I was trying to make (and it's pretty significant), is that you >can't 'continuosly stream' from a TBI injector, it's either on or off, it >squirts defined amounts of fuel at predefined intervals. Theoretically, you >could turn on and off a lot more times in the engine cycle to approach the >carb 'model', but I think if you use a big enough injector to cope with high >load flow, you'd run into calibration problems at low speed because of the >short 'on' period. That will make life difficult. However, All of the air that flows into the intake goes into a combustion chamber eventually. So you have to get the right amount of fuel into all of the air? You cannot just squirt stuff in occasionally. Which is where 'continous stream' comes in Obviously as the injector is only an on/off valve you would have your Pulse width modulation and hope pulses of fuel are disturbed enough by the throttle butterfly to even them out. >I've been trying to confirm if Rover use the same principle as GM, ie. >asynchronous injection - no answer yet.... I understand the general what most of the different sensors do as it is fairly easy to convert from Carb to FI if you understand what each sensor is doing. However I can only do this for the stuff that works in a similar way to carbs.. stuff like asyncronous injection is a little beyond me at the moment. could someone explain or is there a site that explains these somewhere? FWIW the rover mini system is a MEMS system... what ever that means. Thanx, Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 16:42:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA32462 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:42:34 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA32455 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:42:30 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ha073353 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:43:28 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991011203841.0078ad14@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:38:41 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #573 In-Reply-To: <199910110900.FAA21544@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 11/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine is >stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes that the >car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable thing). I know >for a fact that some outboard marine engine controllers do this. Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! Things have changed in the past 5 years. Why would they do this? Manufacturers are still putting ECUs in the engine bay of cars. This is a pretty nasty place for electronics. I can see the reason for putting FI in cars as it improves fuel ecconomy and power along with controling the fuel so that it doesn't clog the CAT. But why on a small outboard engine? Surely you would want to keep the thing as simple as possible using NO electronics as Sea water isn't electronics freindly by any means. Coments? Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 18:47:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02046 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:47:57 -0400 Received: from lstc1.Linnstate.edu (lstc1.linnstate.edu [207.160.145.125]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02043 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:47:55 -0400 Received: by lstc1.linnstate.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:47:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: Jim Brandon To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:47:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF143A.A63B303E" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF143A.A63B303E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What school did you go to? -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 4:00 AM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571 DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, October 10 1999 Volume 04 : Number 571 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:18:44 EDT From: Bja1078@aol.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570 In a message dated 10/9/99 3:59:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Hi , I'm new to this mailing list. I've been reading some of your messages on how simple a fuel injection system can be. Just before I graduated H. S. in 98 my school auto program put efi on our race car. Its a 82 regal with a 454, Th. 400 trans and 3.73 gears in the rear. We were running low 12's and then with the efi took the car in to the 11.50 area. this car has never really been tuned to its potential it only see's 5200 rpm through to traps and it shifts out of 1st and 2nd around 6300. Its Holleys Pro-Jection system. You can find info on the web at Holley's web page. All it has for inputs are temp, tps, and a tach sig. I believe the temp sensor only controls the idle solenoid and a/f below 165 degrees. Theirs 5 or 6 knobs to control the mix and its real easy to set up. Brian Just in case anyone cares I work at a Pontiac Cadillac dealership as a drivability quy! ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF143A.A63B303E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571

What school did you go to?

-----Original Message-----
From: = DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:DI= Y_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 4:00 AM
To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571



DIY_EFI = Digest        Sunday, October 10 = 1999        Volume 04 : Number = 571



In this issue:

        Re: = DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570

See the end of the digest for information on = subscribing to the
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:18:44 EDT
From: Bja1078@aol.com
Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #570

In a message dated 10/9/99 3:59:20 PM Eastern = Daylight Time,
DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu = writes:

<< diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
  >>
Hi , I'm new to this mailing list. I've been reading = some of your messages on
how simple a fuel injection system can be. Just = before I graduated H. S.  in
98 my school auto program put efi on our race car. = Its a 82 regal with a 454,
Th. 400 trans and 3.73 gears in the rear.  We = were running low 12's and then
with the efi took the car in to the 11.50 area. this = car has never really
been tuned to its potential it only see's 5200 rpm = through to traps and it
shifts out of 1st and 2nd around 6300.  Its = Holleys Pro-Jection system. You
can find info on the web at Holley's web page. All = it has for inputs are
temp, tps, and a tach sig. I believe the temp sensor = only controls the idle
solenoid and a/f below 165 degrees. Theirs 5 or 6 = knobs to control the mix
and its real easy to set up.

Brian
Just in case anyone cares I work at a Pontiac = Cadillac dealership as a
drivability quy!

------------------------------

End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #571
*****************************

To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the = command:

    subscribe diy_efi-digest

in the body of a message to = "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". 

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is = also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace = "diy_efi-digest" in the command
 above with "diy_efi".

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF143A.A63B303E-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 19:17:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02588 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:23 -0400 Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02585 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:22 -0400 From: JOEWON1963@aol.com Received: from JOEWON1963@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id tTUWa26723 (2614) for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.88c6e155.2533c9de@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:16:46 EDT Subject: holley projection To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hello could you please help me obtain a copy of the Hondo- program please thank you very much Joe D From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 19:17:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:27 -0400 Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02596 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:26 -0400 Received: from v6v1j4 (qrvl209-74-60ppp204.epix.net [209.74.60.204]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with SMTP id TAA16312 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00cd01bf143f$70f89e20$9f43e0c7@v6v1j4> From: "crash70" To: Subject: MAP Sensors & Pushrods Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:21:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu With all this talk of MAP sensors, I have to ask the question: What is the best way of measuring incoming air on an engine? Flap doors are obviously a huge restriction. Hot wire and film sensors seem like a good method, but MAPs are TOTALLY unobtrusive on the intake system. I've noticed that the majority of American cars use MAP sensors, as well as newer Hondas. European manufacturers seem to favor the film or wire sensor. Is it an economic issue, like the American resistance to ditch pushrods? From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 20:05:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03792 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:05:26 -0400 Received: from scotty.nni.com (scotty.nni.com [216.107.0.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03789 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:05:25 -0400 Received: from nni.com ([216.107.10.120]) by scotty.nni.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61331U25000L20000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:05:23 -0400 Message-ID: <38027E8A.CC892147@nni.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:19:22 -0400 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #572 References: <199910101900.PAA13245@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:50:01 +1000 > From: Phil Lamovie > Subject: Re:Up Up and Away > > > > There is absolutely no need to calculate the mass of the atmosphere on > Earth and then divide that by the ratio of volume of inlet manifold. > Though it would work. > > Please note the total lack of Patents for Altitude correction of > aircraft fuel injection computers. Also total lack of altitude sensors > on all Ford and GM vehicles. I suppose they don't have mountains in > the > USA. > Don't know about the altitude stuff, but GM does use the map sensor for baro correction due to elevations changes, some even have a second map sensor dedicated for baro readings. ('85 Buick Regal, non-turbo) BobR > My company has also supplied ECUs for Aircraft that have flown from > England to Australia, film is available from National Geographic. > I promise they were all fitted with absolute sensors. The engine were > all dynoed on a thirty foot tower (they had very big props about 33 > feet > span) 650 hp at sea level)) and then flew half way around the world. > > Hope the simplicity of it is not too hard to fathom. > > Phil > > Injec Racing Developments > > ------------------------------ > From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 11 20:50:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04275 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:50:35 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04272 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:50:32 -0400 Received: from ts2-023.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.23] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11aq91-0002kE-00; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:50:24 +1000 Message-ID: <007a01bf144d$892f9ee0$17df25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: Subject: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:03:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF14A1.59381100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF14A1.59381100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable any one got a copy of a v6 bin file for a 808/165 that i could get = please? ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF14A1.59381100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
any one got a copy of a v6 bin file for a 808/165 = that i could=20 get please?
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF14A1.59381100-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 04:50:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA10742 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:50:45 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA10739 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:50:40 -0400 Received: from ts2-027.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.27] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11axdd-0005Ic-00; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:50:29 +1000 Message-ID: <003f01bf1490$9b75d4a0$1bdf25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: Subject: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:03:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF14E4.6BC90B60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF14E4.6BC90B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable are there 808 .ecu and . bin files on the ftp site? if there are what are thay calle dand where are thay ? can any body help ? pleazzzzzz ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF14E4.6BC90B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
are there 808 .ecu and . bin files on the ftp=20 site?
if there are what are thay calle dand where are thay = ?
can any body help ? = pleazzzzzz
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF14E4.6BC90B60-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 08:41:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12071 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:41:15 -0400 Received: from star.st.net.au (mail@superstar.st.net.au [203.37.222.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12064 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:41:12 -0400 Received: from ts2-038.st.net.au (dialup.mpx.com.au) [203.37.223.38] by star.st.net.au with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11b1Ep-0006SP-00; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:41:08 +1000 Message-ID: <00b501bf14b0$d3e58fe0$26df25cb@mpx.com.au> From: "Warwick Anderson" To: Subject: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:53:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu found that html switch sorry bout that From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 09:07:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12431 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:07:36 -0400 Received: from bluegill.adi.com (bluegill.adi.com [206.7.181.131]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12428 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:07:34 -0400 Received: from pickerel.adi.com (pickerel.adi.com [206.7.181.140]) by adi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/ADI-8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20632; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pickerel (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pickerel.adi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/ADI-8.5) with SMTP id JAA26077; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38033241.7314@adi.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:06:09 -0400 From: David Rhoads Organization: Applied Dynamics International X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu CC: alavande@engin.umich.edu Subject: 98 Golf TDI MAF sensor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I was given a left over from someone elses car project. It is a MAF sensor from a '98 VW Golf TDI MAF sensor and engine harness, it's never been used. I would like to use this to measure mass air flow rate on another small engine but have had trouble finding a pinout and signal discription for it. I have access to a flow bench so that I can map out the signal/air flow to understand what I'm seeing when I hook it up to the engines air intake. Can any of you help me out? There are 4 wires coming from it and the colors are: light blue light blue with brown stripe yellow with black stripe purple with red stripe The 2 blue wires are twisted together. Could these be the signal wires? What kind of signal, pulse or analog? I'm tempted to think the yellow/blk is ground and the purple/red is power, but would power be Vbat or 5V? Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- . David Rhoads II . Applied Dynamics International . 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108 . (734) 973-1300 . rhoads@adi.com website: www.adi.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 10:08:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13380 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:08:13 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13377 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:08:11 -0400 Received: from richm ([195.44.205.5]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:07:29 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: How simple... Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:36:05 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01bf14ba$d74418a0$1cc82cc3@richm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <199910120900.FAA10783@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >FWIW the rover mini system is a MEMS system... >what ever that means. "Modular Engine Management System". In principle the same ECU is fitted to every post-Lucas era 'MEMS' controlled Rover engined vehicle model (Honda engined versions use Jap electronics); that includes Mini, 200, 400, 600(turbo only) 800 and MGF. There obviously need to be variations due to engine spec - capacity, TBI or multi-point inj., ignition type - distributor or distributorless, turbo or nat-asp., etc. This is where the 'Modular' bit comes in; the ECU is fundamentally based on the same internals with various different hardware configurations and programs to accomodate the different sensors and actuators required for each individual application. You will come across a few different 'version' designators; eg. MEMS1.3, MEMS1.6, MEMS1.9 which roughly segregate the applications. All MEMS systems use as a minimum the following sensors: Crank position Coolant temperature MAP Throttle position Inlet Air temperature Additional sensors , depending on application, include: Knock Cam position (for Distributorless ignition) Lambda (post-1992 catalyst vehicles) Fuel rail temperature All MEMS systems control ignition, either single coil or distributorless. All systems use a stepper motor controlled throttle stop for idle speed control. Hope this is of interest. Rich From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 10:23:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13763 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:23:12 -0400 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13759 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:23:10 -0400 Received: from accessworldnet.com (dialup-157.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.157]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09649 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:23:07 -0700 Message-ID: <380344A6.CE06807F@accessworldnet.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:24:38 -0700 From: Laura & Neil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #575 References: <199910120900.FAA10783@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:21:01 -0400 > From: "crash70" > Subject: MAP Sensors & Pushrods > > With all this talk of MAP sensors, I have to ask the question: What is the > best way of measuring incoming air on an engine? Flap doors are obviously a > huge restriction. Hot wire and film sensors seem like a good method, but > MAPs are TOTALLY unobtrusive on the intake system. > > I've noticed that the majority of American cars use MAP sensors, as well as > newer Hondas. European manufacturers seem to favor the film or wire sensor. > Is it an economic issue, like the American resistance to ditch pushrods? > > I think it is a matter of cost. Yesterday I daignosed a 91 Plymouth Laser with a 2.0 turbo motor as having a bad MAF sensor. (Real errratic idle untill the MAF was disconnected forcing the computer to use the default setting, ran perfectly at idle with the MAF disconnected). The MAF is a dealer item only at $670!!. The average MAP is about $50 retail. > > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:50:01 +1000 > > From: Phil Lamovie > > Subject: Re:Up Up and Away > > > > > > > > There is absolutely no need to calculate the mass of the atmosphere on > > Earth and then divide that by the ratio of volume of inlet manifold. > > Though it would work. > > > > Please note the total lack of Patents for Altitude correction of > > aircraft fuel injection computers. Also total lack of altitude sensors > > on all Ford and GM vehicles. I suppose they don't have mountains in > > the > > USA. > > Surely engine vacuum is relative to the ambient atmospheric pressure. And as the MAP sensor is vented to atmosphere it will have a fair degree of self correction for altitude. From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 10:37:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14095 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:37:39 -0400 Received: from guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (fwncr1-1.ncr.ec.gc.ca [199.212.18.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14091 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:37:38 -0400 Received: from etc.ec.gc.ca (mcgonneg.etc.ec.gc.ca [131.235.127.59]) by guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12587 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:38:50 GMT Message-ID: <380371F1.F1C80707@etc.ec.gc.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:37:53 -0700 From: Will McGonegal Organization: Environment Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #575 References: <199910120900.FAA10783@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! Things have changed in the past 5 years. > Why would they do this? > But why on a small outboard engine?Coments? > > Ade How about emissions regulations. Fish have a right to clean water too! Two strokes puke out a lot of nasty pollutants. Will McGonegal Project Engineer/Dynamometer Developer Emissions Research and Measurement Division Environment Canada From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 12:39:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16989 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:39:01 -0400 Received: from mailgw0.hal.com (mailgw0.hal.com [192.88.244.55]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16983; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:38:55 -0400 Received: from pedex.hal.com (pedex.hal.com [148.57.5.123]) by mailgw0.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09249; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peugeot.hal.com (peugeot.hal.com [148.57.73.131]) by pedex.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10704; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by peugeot.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23406; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910121638.JAA23406@peugeot.hal.com> From: Stuart Hastings To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu CC: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: marine engine FI Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > At 05:00 11/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > >Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine is > >stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes that the > >car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable thing). I know > >for a fact that some outboard marine engine controllers do this. Marine FI can probably get away with this, unless you run your boat down (or up) the side of a mountain with the engine running. "Over the falls," perhaps :-) ? > Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! Things have changed in the past 5 years. > Why would they do this? Manufacturers are still putting ECUs in the engine > bay of cars. This is a pretty nasty place for electronics. I can see the > reason for putting FI in cars as it improves fuel ecconomy and power along > with controling the fuel so that it doesn't clog the CAT. But why on a > small outboard engine? Surely you would want to keep the thing as simple as > possible using NO electronics as Sea water isn't electronics freindly by > any means. Marine two-stroke engines have aroused the Federal EPA, and they're on a ten-year program of gradually tightening emissions through 2006. EPA looked at off-road engines, and decided that marine engines were the next logical target. They catagorized marine engines as diesel, two-cycle, and four-cycle. I didn't pay attention to what they did about diesels (probably nothing at this time). However, they noticed that carbureted two-cycle engines passed 25-30% of their fuel directly out their exhaust. The technology employed to fix this is DFI; injecting fuel directly into the cylinder, after the piston has risen enough to close the exhaust port. Mercury uses a system they licensed from Orbital (of Australia), OMC bought a company named Ficht (of Germany), and Yamaha has developed their own. As I recall, Ficht uses a special injector that develops about 450psi, Orbital uses ~90psi mixed with a blast of compressed air, and Yamaha uses ~700psi. There are some explanatory websites: www.mercurymarine.com www.orbeng.com.au www.omc-online.com I haven't looked at Yamaha's web site; they may not have a writeup yet, as I don't think they've shipped yet. Curiously, while DFI reduces oil consumption, it doesn't really address the oil-emission question. Apparently EPA agrees this is not a major pollution issue at this time. Manufactures are quick to tout the reduced fuel consumption of DFI, and many satisfied customers agree it's real. EPA has purposely avoided any smog regulations for four-stroke marine engines, with the expressed intent of encouraging their use. Since the existing marinized car engines were emitting about 25% of the smog (measured in grams/kW/hour) of carbureted two-strokes, this sort of makes sense. As I understand it, a 2006-compliant two-stroke is almost as clean as an unregulated 4bbl SBC, neglecting the oil issue. Since DFI is expensive, and the law requires a gradual cleanup, large marine engines (>100HP) are being converted one-at-a-time to DFI, and smaller engines to four-stroke. Marine two-stroke ECUs seem to be relatively up-to-date, with proprietary laptop connections and flash memories. The wild card is the California Air Resources Board. They've enacted much stricter standards than the Federal EPA, and no two-cycle manufacturer has agreed to meet them yet. stuart hastings From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 19:46:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24205 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:46:08 -0400 Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24202 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:46:07 -0400 From: JECFL98@aol.com Received: from JECFL98@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jYFQnV9ki_ (4559) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.a36c9c30.2535221a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:45:30 EDT Subject: Chrysler IC's in ECU To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a 85 Chrysler K-car, I looking for information on the IC's that are in the ECU The IC's are : Motorola SC88352CP CPU Motorola SC87313CP Port Expander ? ?? +B8432 RAM ? ?? 4289473 driver IC's Any info about mid 80's chrysler ECU internal workings will be helpfull. I see alot about Ford and GM, but nothing yet on Chrysler. Please respond to JECFL98@aol.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 20:54:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA25253 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:54:13 -0400 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (comai@expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25249 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:54:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (comai@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17879 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:53:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:53:03 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Comai To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RX-7 EFI system In-Reply-To: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu My friend has an RX-7 (early '90s pretty much standard equipped I believe) which is running fairly rich. I haven't looked at it yet but I'm going to help him troubleshoot it later this week. Does mazada use a similar system to GM? Im thinking it's pretty different .. anyway can anyone give me any advice to troubleshoot it, or insight into how Mazda setup their sytem on their rotary motor? I'm guessing it's an an o2 sensor but I'm not expecting it to be that simple. Mike Comai From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 12 21:08:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25448 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:08:36 -0400 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (comai@expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25445 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:08:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (comai@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23917 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:08:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:08:35 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Comai To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: More RX7 info... In-Reply-To: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I got some more info on the RX7 I mentioned in my previous email ... it's an '88 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II, Model 13B of the motor, 5-speed manual. Any info would help, Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 01:56:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29389 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:56:30 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29386 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:56:26 -0400 Received: from injec.com (pgw155.ains.net.au [202.61.243.155]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02878 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:00:38 +1000 Message-ID: <3803680E.5470199@injec.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:55:42 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! References: <199910120900.FAA10783@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Ade etal, Not only are the newer (larger) outboards injected but the two systems in use are really very sophisticated compared to your average passenger vehicle. The "small" engine system is by Fichtel & Sachs (they also make clutch components for Ferrari F1) this is used on engines up to 180 - 200 hp. The "big" engine system is by the Australian company Sarich Technologies (famous for their 2 stroke air/fuel injection car engines). The Sarich system has a special injector that injects both fuel and a proportion of the air in an effort to enable very complete combustion. The Clean Air Research Board is responsible for the Legislation that forced the big 4 to go full on high tech. If not for the sophisticated fuel/ignition systems the outcome would have been 4 stroke outboards with c/v carbys. This is still the most likely outcome for the smaller engines (below 50 hp) as the power to weight is less of a concern to fisherpeople than ski/race types. And the system cost is of more concern to the manufacturers. As far as sea water is concerned please see epoxy resin encapsulation as the perfect solution. "No sir we can't repair the unit you will need to buy a new one." Regards Phil Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 01:56:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29401 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:56:36 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29397 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:56:34 -0400 Received: from injec.com (pgw155.ains.net.au [202.61.243.155]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02881 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:00:40 +1000 Message-ID: <3803680E.5470199@injec.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:55:42 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! References: <199910120900.FAA10783@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Ade etal, Not only are the newer (larger) outboards injected but the two systems in use are really very sophisticated compared to your average passenger vehicle. The "small" engine system is by Fichtel & Sachs (they also make clutch components for Ferrari F1) this is used on engines up to 180 - 200 hp. The "big" engine system is by the Australian company Sarich Technologies (famous for their 2 stroke air/fuel injection car engines). The Sarich system has a special injector that injects both fuel and a proportion of the air in an effort to enable very complete combustion. The Clean Air Research Board is responsible for the Legislation that forced the big 4 to go full on high tech. If not for the sophisticated fuel/ignition systems the outcome would have been 4 stroke outboards with c/v carbys. This is still the most likely outcome for the smaller engines (below 50 hp) as the power to weight is less of a concern to fisherpeople than ski/race types. And the system cost is of more concern to the manufacturers. As far as sea water is concerned please see epoxy resin encapsulation as the perfect solution. "No sir we can't repair the unit you will need to buy a new one." Regards Phil Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 01:57:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29423 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:57:33 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29419 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:57:30 -0400 Received: from injec.com (pgw155.ains.net.au [202.61.243.155]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02911 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:01:55 +1000 Message-ID: <3803821B.81C97226@injec.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:46:51 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: engine idling at a high RPM References: <199910111900.PAA29911@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi John et al, > An engine idling at a high RPM because it was tuned at sea level > but tested at 5000' ASL would be sent to the shop where the > engine would be adjusted to pass the tests at that altitude. An engine that was idling at more than 1% above the factory specification has one of the following problems. 1. Air leak inlet manifold 2. Stuck idle speed control device. 3. Dead ECU output to ISC 4. Idle air bleed open so far ISC closed fully can't compensate 5. ECU confused about idle set point or rpm reading error 6. Faulty water temp reading high (ECU mode overtemp) It's very hard to achieve closed loop fuel control at idle if you don't pre light the cat. > The tests are done at idle while the O2 sensor is in closed > loop mode. A rich mixture at Full Torque RPM is never tested > for and most... The certification test are conducted using chassis dynos with inertia correction and continuos gas sampling with "bagging" and post test analysis on a second by second and total mass pollutants per vehicle mass per distance driven. The car is first "soaked" at 24 deg C for 24 hours and then positioned on the dyno. A techie drives the vehicle trying to keep a dot on a monitor between two snaky lines which are a speed demand. An error of 1.5% in speed is an abort test and resoak. (big career no-no) Total driving time for both city and highway test are 54 minutes for the "New York" test. This simulates 27 minutes of really ugly stop start traffic with brief burst up to 92 km/hr. Some of the braking requires two feet on the pedal ! Full throttle is used for about 1/3 of lower powered vehicles and at some stages the autos kick down a gear or two. As it is speed dependent big engine light cars do quite well until the weight is factored in for grams/kg/km results. The Highway cycle is not a pollution issue it is for economy comparisons. The 92 km/hr is the break point for "lean cruise". Most OEM's choose 1.5 min above 95 km/hr and then drop out of closed loop and head for Lambda 1.1 or 16.17:1 A/F ratio. This gives best fuel economy and of course max. NOX production. The cat goes out completely and won't be relit until you get off the freeway. So your inter city trip could easily be 5% closed loop and the rest lean and dirty. Puts the "Magic" of Closed Loop and the CAT into some real world perspective. Regards Phil Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 01:59:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29450 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:59:37 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29447 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:59:34 -0400 Received: from injec.com (pgw155.ains.net.au [202.61.243.155]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02932 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:03:57 +1000 Message-ID: <3803821B.81C97226@injec.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:46:51 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: engine idling at a high RPM References: <199910111900.PAA29911@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi John et al, > An engine idling at a high RPM because it was tuned at sea level > but tested at 5000' ASL would be sent to the shop where the > engine would be adjusted to pass the tests at that altitude. An engine that was idling at more than 1% above the factory specification has one of the following problems. 1. Air leak inlet manifold 2. Stuck idle speed control device. 3. Dead ECU output to ISC 4. Idle air bleed open so far ISC closed fully can't compensate 5. ECU confused about idle set point or rpm reading error 6. Faulty water temp reading high (ECU mode overtemp) It's very hard to achieve closed loop fuel control at idle if you don't pre light the cat. > The tests are done at idle while the O2 sensor is in closed > loop mode. A rich mixture at Full Torque RPM is never tested > for and most... The certification test are conducted using chassis dynos with inertia correction and continuos gas sampling with "bagging" and post test analysis on a second by second and total mass pollutants per vehicle mass per distance driven. The car is first "soaked" at 24 deg C for 24 hours and then positioned on the dyno. A techie drives the vehicle trying to keep a dot on a monitor between two snaky lines which are a speed demand. An error of 1.5% in speed is an abort test and resoak. (big career no-no) Total driving time for both city and highway test are 54 minutes for the "New York" test. This simulates 27 minutes of really ugly stop start traffic with brief burst up to 92 km/hr. Some of the braking requires two feet on the pedal ! Full throttle is used for about 1/3 of lower powered vehicles and at some stages the autos kick down a gear or two. As it is speed dependent big engine light cars do quite well until the weight is factored in for grams/kg/km results. The Highway cycle is not a pollution issue it is for economy comparisons. The 92 km/hr is the break point for "lean cruise". Most OEM's choose 1.5 min above 95 km/hr and then drop out of closed loop and head for Lambda 1.1 or 16.17:1 A/F ratio. This gives best fuel economy and of course max. NOX production. The cat goes out completely and won't be relit until you get off the freeway. So your inter city trip could easily be 5% closed loop and the rest lean and dirty. Puts the "Magic" of Closed Loop and the CAT into some real world perspective. Regards Phil Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 02:30:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA29790 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:30:11 -0400 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (IDENT:root@DALEK.ains.net.au [203.36.1.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA29787 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:30:07 -0400 Received: from injec.com (pgw155.ains.net.au [202.61.243.155]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03099 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:34:32 +1000 Message-ID: <380426B6.D09DC459@injec.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:29:10 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Map vented to Atmosphere ??? References: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Laura & Neil, > Surely engine vacuum is relative to the ambient atmospheric > pressure. And as the MAP sensor is vented to atmosphere it will > have a fair degree of self correction for altitude. Lets set the record absolutely. Absolute means what it says. It is a barometer in every sense. It has an integral nitrogen bubble as its reference and it's output is set to read 101.3 kPa as the P of STP. It is not a differential sensor. Thus it is ALWAYS reading the manifold pressure relative to ABSOLUTE pressure. Air flow meters are major profit centres for auto manufacturers. Some times they make more profit on the AFM replacement than the original car sale. Engine vacuum is controlled by the butterfly and thus is relative to it's position and the load on the engine. Phil Injec Racing From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 03:24:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA30124 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 03:24:14 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:HWiwKpgR7lawj0Fuv13LEI5LUw8psChk@haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA30120 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 03:24:12 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (dynamic-200-122.dialup.chalmers.se [129.16.200.122]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15295 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:23:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 11702 invoked by uid 100); 13 Oct 1999 07:02:03 -0000 Message-ID: <19991013070203.11701.qmail@glenn> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) In-Reply-To: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches [i386] (Enhance 2.2p2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2) From: nhoj@cd.chalmers.se Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:02:02 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: marine engine FI References: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> At 05:00 11/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >> >Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine is >> >stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes that the >> >car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable thing). I know >> >for a fact that some outboard marine engine controllers do this. > >Marine FI can probably get away with this, unless you run your boat >down (or up) the side of a mountain with the engine running. >"Over the falls," perhaps :-) ? > >> Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! Things have changed in the past 5 years. >> Why would they do this? Manufacturers are still putting ECUs in the engine >> bay of cars. This is a pretty nasty place for electronics. I can see the >> reason for putting FI in cars as it improves fuel ecconomy and power along >> with controling the fuel so that it doesn't clog the CAT. But why on a >> small outboard engine? There have been fuel injected outboard engines for a long time. However, EFI 2-strokes have been available only in the high power segment, starting around 200hp, and primarily from Mercury. >>Surely you would want to keep the thing as simple as >> possible using NO electronics as Sea water isn't electronics freindly by >> any means. It is difficult to get enough low and midrange power out of a highly tuned 2-stroke engine using carbs. With EFI that problem decreases significantly. Remember that a boat needs good power at low revs to get on plane, and lots of power at high revs to be fast... >The technology employed to fix this is DFI; injecting fuel directly >into the cylinder, after the piston has risen enough to close the >exhaust port. As I recall, this is not really true; at high RPMs injection takes place before the exhaust port closes. Thus, at wide open throttle, the efficieny of DFI outboards gets close to the efficieny of manifold injected or carbed outboards. Note that two-stroke outboards are pretty efficient in their tuned RPM range. A problem that limits fuel efficiency of DFIs more than older outboards, IMHO, is that the limited cooling of the pistons forces DFIs to run rather rich. >Mercury uses a system they licensed from Orbital (of >Australia), OMC bought a company named Ficht (of Germany), and Yamaha >has developed their own. As I recall, Ficht uses a special injector >that develops about 450psi, More like 200, IIRC. Also, Ficht's solenoid driven injector is not very precise; the pressure varies a lot. >Orbital uses ~90psi mixed with a blast of >compressed air, Note that compressed air contains far more energy than pressurized fuel, which means that Orbital gets by with a far lower pressure. Thus, they avoid a few of the drawbacks of DFI. >and Yamaha uses ~700psi. Yamaha's new offerings are interesting, because they designed a completely new engine for the DFI system, rather than retrofitting it on an existing construction. >I haven't looked at Yamaha's web site; they may not have a writeup >yet, as I don't think they've shipped yet. There is a writeup floating around, but it says "Not for publication"... >Curiously, while DFI reduces oil consumption, it doesn't really >address the oil-emission question. DFI as such sure does; reduced consumption leads to lower emmissions, after all. Hower, due to technical problems, some current DFIs, and particularly Mercury's, tend to use surprising quantities of oil. >Apparently EPA agrees this is not a >major pollution issue at this time. Manufactures are quick to tout the >reduced fuel consumption of DFI, and many satisfied customers agree >it's real. And quite a few customers are on their second, third or fourth power head on warranty... OMC's Ficht has been worse off than Mercury, in this respect. (Mercury found unexpected problems and quietly pulled back their first generation of DFI's, and came back with an improved design and a new name. OMC on the other hand, being somewhat financially challenged, let their customers do the testing for them, to the misfortune of a whole lot of people. OMC also had an Orbital license, and built but never sold an engine almost identical to Mercury's original DFI, by the way) Regards, John Hornkvist From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 12:31:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04801 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:31:39 -0400 Received: from legend.idworld.net (root@legend.idworld.net [209.142.64.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04798 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:31:37 -0400 Received: from robmaxon (dnas-01-42.sat.idworld.net [209.142.68.250]) by legend.idworld.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA06483; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:31:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <009801bf1598$25abeda0$ec4a8ed1@robmaxon> From: "Rob Maxon" To: Cc: Subject: Chrysler IC's in ECU Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:29:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I have a 85 Chrysler K-car, I looking for information on the IC's that are >in the ECU > The IC's are : Motorola SC88352CP CPU (= 6803u4) Motorola SC87313CP Port Expander ? ?? +B8432 RAM ? (=is probably Z22 see below) ?? 4289473 driver IC's (=is probably Z51 see below) If its got a sticker covering a window, its a 2764A eprom. Some 1985's had (2) 28 pin 2764A eproms at Z51 and Z22, while others had one 28 pin 2764A eprom at Z51, and one 24 pin (I think) rom chip that I am not sure about at Z22. These are the 2 chips at the opposite end of the board from the connectors. They are labeled Z51 and Z22 on the board, I think.. Rob 86 GLHS #048 >Any info about mid 80's chrysler ECU internal workings will be helpfull. I >see alot about Ford and GM, but nothing yet on Chrysler. >Please respond to JECFL98@aol.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 12:47:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05013 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:47:35 -0400 Received: from benatar.snurgle.org (IDENT:fluffy@c266492-a.lakwod1.co.home.com [24.1.8.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05010 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:47:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (fluffy@localhost) by benatar.snurgle.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05345 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:47:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:47:22 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #577 In-Reply-To: <199910130900.FAA30717@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > My friend has an RX-7 (early '90s pretty much standard equipped I > believe) which is running fairly rich. I haven't looked at > it yet but I'm going to help him troubleshoot it later this week. Does > mazada use a similar system to GM? Im thinking it's pretty different .. I don't know too much about the GM motors, but I can say a (very) little bit about the Mazda... The Turbo II ECU is pretty much a modern EFI controller. There is an oxygen sensor, which is used at low rpm and part throttle. At higher speeds or full throttle, the ECU switches over to fuel maps. The ECU also controls the wastegate via (I believe) vacuum activation in order to regulate boost. The ECU has fuel maps up to very high boost levels, but does not use most of them as there is a fuel cut at around 8 psi of boost. The rotariness of the motor doesn't really affect the ECU very much. If the engine is running rich only at idle, there are a number of simple adjustments to correct that. If the engine is running rich at full throttle, it's probably supposed to - the turbo models do run fairly rich in order to prevent knock. The rich running at other conditions is very possibly a bad O2 sensor, or it could be something else. but it probably isn't the ECU failing as they are quite sturdy. How do you know the engine is running rich? It could be, for example, a plugged catalytic converter, which can cause similar symptoms... From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 13:54:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06161 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:54:39 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06156 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:54:36 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ba073633 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:55:50 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991013184128.00d2f654@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:41:28 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 In-Reply-To: <199910121900.PAA19018@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 12/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >>FWIW the rover mini system is a MEMS system... >what ever that means. > >"Modular Engine Management System". >In principle the same ECU is fitted to every post-Lucas era 'MEMS' >controlled Rover engined vehicle model (Honda engined versions use Jap >electronics); that includes Mini, 200, 400, 600(turbo only) 800 and MGF. >There obviously need to be variations due to engine spec - capacity, TBI or >multi-point inj., ignition type - distributor or distributorless, turbo or >nat-asp., etc. This is where the 'Modular' bit comes in; the ECU is >fundamentally based on the same internals with various different hardware >configurations and programs to accomodate the different sensors and >actuators required for each individual application. >You will come across a few different 'version' designators; eg. MEMS1.3, >MEMS1.6, MEMS1.9 which roughly segregate the applications. >All MEMS systems use as a minimum the following sensors: >Additional sensors , depending on application, include: >Knock What does the knock sensor do? What does it mean if I don't have one >Fuel rail temperature Why? >All MEMS systems control ignition, either single coil or distributorless. >All systems use a stepper motor controlled throttle stop for idle speed >control. Apart from the Mpi (97 on) minis which have a bypass valve which bleeds are from the filter casing into the manifold. >Hope this is of interest. It is, thanks, Ade From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 15:36:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08429 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:36:01 -0400 Received: from mailgw0.hal.com (mailgw0.hal.com [192.88.244.55]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08421; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:35:56 -0400 Received: from pedex.hal.com (pedex.hal.com [148.57.5.123]) by mailgw0.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02142; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peugeot.hal.com (peugeot.hal.com [148.57.73.131]) by pedex.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04933; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by peugeot.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18142; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910131935.MAA18142@peugeot.hal.com> From: Stuart Hastings To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu CC: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In-reply-to: <199910130900.FAA30717@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> (DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu) Subject: Re: marine engine FI Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Mercury uses a system they licensed from Orbital (of > >Australia), OMC bought a company named Ficht (of Germany), and Yamaha > >has developed their own. As I recall, Ficht uses a special injector > >that develops about 450psi, > > More like 200, IIRC. Also, Ficht's solenoid driven injector is not very > precise; the pressure varies a lot. I suppose there is no way to really know without measuring it, and this would be difficult. One imagines a small, closed chamber, filled with an incompressible liquid, and a Ficht injector screwed in one end. Perhaps you could repeatedly fire the injector until the pressure stopped rising... In any case, OMC has claimed "exceeding 500 psi" for their injectors (http://www.omc-online.com/pressreleases/pressreleases/pr488.htm). Yes, it's probably a meaningless figure. > >Orbital uses ~90psi mixed with a blast of > >compressed air, > > Note that compressed air contains far more energy than pressurized fuel, > which means that Orbital gets by with a far lower pressure. Thus, they avoid > a few of the drawbacks of DFI. Speaking as a potential customer, the extra belt and air compressor used on the Orbital design look like additional parts to break. The Ficht design has none of these parts. The other drawback to the Ficht injector (beyond the imprecision you mention) is its energy requirements. OMC redesigned and enlarged their alternators to supply 24V in order to drive those injectors (they'll start the engine on 12V). Orbital/Mercury and Yamaha get their energy via a belt, without the electrical losses. > >Curiously, while DFI reduces oil consumption, it doesn't really > >address the oil-emission question. > > DFI as such sure does; reduced consumption leads to lower emmissions, after all. > > Hower, due to technical problems, some current DFIs, and particularly > Mercury's, tend to use surprising quantities of oil. My point was that DFI two-stroke engines are still blowing oil out the exhaust. If the emissions have dropped by half, that's great, but it's still disconcerting. > >Apparently EPA agrees this is not a > >major pollution issue at this time. More specifically, EPA is interested only in *air* pollution from marine engines. When they mandated oxygenated fuel, they indirectly required California fuel to incorporate MTBE, and nobody realized it would contaminate the *water*. Hello, EPA, most marine engines exhaust *underwater*, even if most of their smog immediately bubbles to the surface! I'll guess that EPA isn't yet concerned about oil emissions because much of the oil stays in (or on the surface of) the *water*. > And quite a few customers are on their second, third or fourth power head on > warranty... OMC's Ficht has been worse off than Mercury, in this > respect. OMC claims to have fixed their problems, and I haven't heard of any Ficht owners out of warranty yet. > (Mercury found unexpected problems and quietly pulled back their first > generation of DFI's, and came back with an improved design and a new name. > OMC on the other hand, being somewhat financially challenged, let their > customers do the testing for them, to the misfortune of a whole lot of > people. OMC also had an Orbital license, and built but never sold an engine > almost identical to Mercury's original DFI, by the way) OMC has said as much on their website in the past. They also listed a bunch of problems they had with it, all problems that were adequately solved by Mercury. This leads me to believe they prefer Ficht because they were able to buy the technology outright and avoid paying royalties. stuart hastings From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 17:59:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10953 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:59:29 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10950 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:59:27 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a29-0063.dialup.online.no [130.67.5.63]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11425 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:59:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910132159.XAA11425@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:56:14 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Stuart for a interesting summary. Yamahas new (High pressure direct injection) HPDI 200hp is better than the 75% reduction in certain emissions the Environmental protection agency requires by 2006. It has a new engine block with longer stroke and 76-degree v 6. They want to make the engine slimmer to not get into trubbles with the boat manufacturers. To reduce the fuel to a fine mist the system uses high pressure, 700psi , ficht uses (OMC) 300-400psi , DFI (Merc) 80 psi. The pressure is developed through a very small high speed pump. Two stainless steel fuel rails for each cyl row. The Injectors looks very simular to car efi injectors....... They say that the high pressure is a part of the whole picture, without the high pressure they could not use internal opening style injectors, the pressure keeps them closed when they need to be closed. Internal opening style injectors that dont protrude into the combustion chamber are,unique to the HPDI system. They clame that the most notable advantage is that they dont impede or disrupt the fuel flume. Like diesel style injectors vs. efi injectors. Yamaha uses the common sensors , crank position sensor.TPS,KNOK, rpm sensor, water temp, air temp,MAP,O2.....o2.............?(patented 02 sensors ) All manufacturers of theese dfi outboard engines has had some bugs that develop..... A lake in US has abandoned all engines that are not to the latest eviromental standards......If you want to take your boat with your old twostroke engine out , you have to change your engine to a new one first. Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for reliability as I see it. I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring new crank, one piston 70grams to heavy +++ They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As standard) The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. Any who has any info on them?(GM?) I hope to put another efi system om my engines and run LPG....... Liquid injecting. Any input is appreciated. To afford to use it....... Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 18:00:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10973 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:00:41 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10970 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:00:40 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a29-0063.dialup.online.no [130.67.5.63]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14757 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 00:00:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910132200.AAA14757@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:56:14 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Stuart for a interesting summary. Yamahas new (High pressure direct injection) HPDI 200hp is better than the 75% reduction in certain emissions the Environmental protection agency requires by 2006. It has a new engine block with longer stroke and 76-degree v 6. They want to make the engine slimmer to not get into trubbles with the boat manufacturers. To reduce the fuel to a fine mist the system uses high pressure, 700psi , ficht uses (OMC) 300-400psi , DFI (Merc) 80 psi. The pressure is developed through a very small high speed pump. Two stainless steel fuel rails for each cyl row. The Injectors looks very simular to car efi injectors....... They say that the high pressure is a part of the whole picture, without the high pressure they could not use internal opening style injectors, the pressure keeps them closed when they need to be closed. Internal opening style injectors that dont protrude into the combustion chamber are,unique to the HPDI system. They clame that the most notable advantage is that they dont impede or disrupt the fuel flume. Like diesel style injectors vs. efi injectors. Yamaha uses the common sensors , crank position sensor.TPS,KNOK, rpm sensor, water temp, air temp,MAP,O2.....o2.............?(patented 02 sensors ) All manufacturers of theese dfi outboard engines has had some bugs that develop..... A lake in US has abandoned all engines that are not to the latest eviromental standards......If you want to take your boat with your old twostroke engine out , you have to change your engine to a new one first. Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for reliability as I see it. I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring new crank, one piston 70grams to heavy +++ They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As standard) The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. Any who has any info on them?(GM?) I hope to put another efi system om my engines and run LPG....... Liquid injecting. Any input is appreciated. To afford to use it....... Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 18:36:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11434 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:36:45 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11430 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:36:44 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a21-0119.dialup.online.no [130.67.1.119]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA10262 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 00:36:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910132236.AAA10262@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:56:14 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Stuart for a interesting summary. Yamahas new (High pressure direct injection) HPDI 200hp is better than the 75% reduction in certain emissions the Environmental protection agency requires by 2006. It has a new engine block with longer stroke and 76-degree v 6. They want to make the engine slimmer to not get into trubbles with the boat manufacturers. To reduce the fuel to a fine mist the system uses high pressure, 700psi , ficht uses (OMC) 300-400psi , DFI (Merc) 80 psi. The pressure is developed through a very small high speed pump. Two stainless steel fuel rails for each cyl row. The Injectors looks very simular to car efi injectors....... They say that the high pressure is a part of the whole picture, without the high pressure they could not use internal opening style injectors, the pressure keeps them closed when they need to be closed. Internal opening style injectors that dont protrude into the combustion chamber are,unique to the HPDI system. They clame that the most notable advantage is that they dont impede or disrupt the fuel flume. Like diesel style injectors vs. efi injectors. Yamaha uses the common sensors , crank position sensor.TPS,KNOK, rpm sensor, water temp, air temp,MAP,O2.....o2.............?(patented 02 sensors ) All manufacturers of theese dfi outboard engines has had some bugs that develop..... A lake in US has abandoned all engines that are not to the latest eviromental standards......If you want to take your boat with your old twostroke engine out , you have to change your engine to a new one first. Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for reliability as I see it. I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring new crank, one piston 70grams to heavy +++ They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As standard) The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. Any who has any info on them?(GM?) I hope to put another efi system om my engines and run LPG....... Liquid injecting. Any input is appreciated. To afford to use it....... Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 13 18:47:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11579 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:47:38 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11576 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:47:36 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a21-0119.dialup.online.no [130.67.1.119]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01231 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 00:47:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910132247.AAA01231@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:56:14 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Stuart for a interesting summary. Yamahas new (High pressure direct injection) HPDI 200hp is better than the 75% reduction in certain emissions the Environmental protection agency requires by 2006. It has a new engine block with longer stroke and 76-degree v 6. They want to make the engine slimmer to not get into trubbles with the boat manufacturers. To reduce the fuel to a fine mist the system uses high pressure, 700psi , ficht uses (OMC) 300-400psi , DFI (Merc) 80 psi. The pressure is developed through a very small high speed pump. Two stainless steel fuel rails for each cyl row. The Injectors looks very simular to car efi injectors....... They say that the high pressure is a part of the whole picture, without the high pressure they could not use internal opening style injectors, the pressure keeps them closed when they need to be closed. Internal opening style injectors that dont protrude into the combustion chamber are,unique to the HPDI system. They clame that the most notable advantage is that they dont impede or disrupt the fuel flume. Like diesel style injectors vs. efi injectors. Yamaha uses the common sensors , crank position sensor.TPS,KNOK, rpm sensor, water temp, air temp,MAP,O2.....o2.............?(patented 02 sensors ) All manufacturers of theese dfi outboard engines has had some bugs that develop..... A lake in US has abandoned all engines that are not to the latest eviromental standards......If you want to take your boat with your old twostroke engine out , you have to change your engine to a new one first. Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for reliability as I see it. I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring new crank, one piston 70grams to heavy +++ They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As standard) The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. Any who has any info on them?(GM?) I hope to put another efi system om my engines and run LPG....... Liquid injecting. Any input is appreciated. To afford to use it....... Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 09:37:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21694 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:37:50 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:DK1InRw7Brc3pbYEi5g9KoKRkXOZYX/L@haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21688 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:37:48 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (dynamic-202-51.dialup.chalmers.se [129.16.202.51]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27683 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:37:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 17071 invoked by uid 100); 14 Oct 1999 13:40:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19991014134025.17070.qmail@glenn> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) In-Reply-To: <199910140900.FAA19025@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches [i386] (Enhance 2.2p2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2) From: nhoj@cd.chalmers.se Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:40:25 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #579 References: <199910140900.FAA19025@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You Espen Hilde wrote: > [About Yamaha HPDI] > To reduce the fuel to a fine mist the system uses high pressure, > 700psi , ficht uses (OMC) 300-400psi , DFI (Merc) 80 psi. Note that you cannot directly compare Mercury's 80 psi with Yamaha's 700, since Mercury uses direct air/fuel injection, and compressed gas contains much more energy than a pressurized liquid. Pressure is just a marketing figure. It atomization that is interesting. Has anyone seen atomization figures for HPDI? > The pressure is developed through a very small high speed pump. A large low pressure fuel pump pushes fuel into a liquid/gas separator to get rid of any bubbles, and then into the high pressure pump. > Yamaha uses the common sensors , crank position sensor.TPS,KNOK, > rpm sensor, water temp, air temp,MAP,O2.....o2.............?(patented 02 > sensors ) The fact that Yamaha can operate in a real closed loop mode was what struck me when I first read the specs. Yamaha already does this in the OX66 EFI system which is used on their 76 degree 3.1 litre engines, by the way. The reason for going with a 76 degree engine is that it allows them to stay within the form factor of the 90 degree engines despite the new hardware. > All manufacturers of theese dfi outboard engines has had some bugs > that develop..... To say it nicely. :) > Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 > hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for > reliability as I see it. Do they really deliver it? Given that it has a lower unit that can't reverse, it wouldn't make much sense for anything but racing. And as a racer you get more power per cubic inch from an XR2, 2.5EFI or even a 300 ProMax. > I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring Are they any fun? I have very modified Yamaha 200 that will get an EFI system if it is still running when I can aford one (eg MADEFI) or find time to build something... Performance below 4000 RPM is not exactly stunning when using carbs. > new crank, one piston 70grams to heavy +++ 70 grams??? That's a lot of extra weight... > They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As > standard) Is this the 260hp version? > The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. The 280hp machines? Regards, John Hornkvist From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 09:37:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21698 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:37:51 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:dN7tFtlMyS+zlF4i5nS3qPdKmYJpn8hq@haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21689 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:37:49 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (dynamic-202-51.dialup.chalmers.se [129.16.202.51]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27682 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:37:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 17057 invoked by uid 100); 14 Oct 1999 13:21:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19991014132147.17056.qmail@glenn> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) In-Reply-To: <199910140900.FAA19025@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches [i386] (Enhance 2.2p2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2) From: nhoj@cd.chalmers.se Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:21:46 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: marine engine FI References: <199910140900.FAA19025@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Stuart Hastings wrote: > > More like 200, IIRC. Also, Ficht's solenoid driven injector is not very > > precise; the pressure varies a lot. > > I suppose there is no way to really know without measuring it, and > this would be difficult. One imagines a small, closed chamber, filled > with an incompressible liquid, and a Ficht injector screwed in one > end. Perhaps you could repeatedly fire the injector until the pressure > stopped rising... That would only tell you the maximum pressure, not the sustained pressure through a burst. Pressure in itself is NOT a good thing in a gasoline DFI, though. OMC and Yamaha use the pressure to get atomization. If they could get that atomization with lower pressure, they would. The penetration rate (velocity of fuel entering the cylinder) is too high when the pressure is raised enough to provide reasonable atomisation. This is coped with by putting spray deflectors and bowls in the piston and cumbustion chamber, but these are all band-aids trying to slow the spray down and contain it near the spark plug to achieve stratified charge conditions (i.e. rich near the plug and lean elsewhere). Orbital does not have this problem, since it uses compressed air to shear the droplets. > > Note that compressed air contains far more energy than pressurized > > fuel, which means that Orbital gets by with a far lower pressure. > > Thus, they avoid a few of the drawbacks of DFI. > > Speaking as a potential customer, the extra belt and air compressor > used on the Orbital design look like additional parts to break. Of course. But a belt driven air compressor is not exactly rocket science... > The Ficht design has none of these parts. The Ficht has a whole lot of other parts to break. (And it seems to be doing so with gusto...:)) > My point was that DFI two-stroke engines are still blowing oil out the > exhaust. If the emissions have dropped by half, that's great, but it's > still disconcerting. True. They could have moved the precompression out of the crank case, using a conventional "wet" crank case, and a screw compressor instead. That would have given more efficient scavenging, and gotten rid of all oil in emissions. In addition, they would probably be able to get a fair bit more power out of the engines since the problem of piston overheating would not force them to run rich at WOT. At least one of the car manufacturers that worked on an Orbital engine did this. > More specifically, EPA is interested only in *air* pollution from > marine engines. When they mandated oxygenated fuel, they indirectly > required California fuel to incorporate MTBE, and nobody realized it > would contaminate the *water*. This may be true. I read somewhere that it is doubtful that a significant amount unburnt gasoline passes into the environment because of the high temperature of the exhaust gases. Since I'm not American, I won't claim to know how the EPA thinks or works, though. > Hello, EPA, most marine engines exhaust > *underwater*, even if most of their smog immediately bubbles to the > surface! That can easily be fixed with a holesaw, if you're worried. :) > I'll guess that EPA isn't yet concerned about oil emissions because > much of the oil stays in (or on the surface of) the *water*. That is possible. They may also be taking on one problem at a time. > OMC claims to have fixed their problems, and I haven't heard of any > Ficht owners out of warranty yet. Neither have I. Even if you are under warranty, it is quite frustrating to be left drifting on the ocean, though. That's one reason why it is a problem for OMC; they get a bad reputation out of the failures, and they have to pay for the repairs... As far as I know, its the 60 degree V6 engines that have caused almost all of the trouble, particularly the 175. The 90 degree V6 and V4 engines seem to do OK. An OMC rep told me that in order for your Ficht to survive, you should block the oil return line the first time you start it, as well any time it hasn't been running for a while. Otherwise there is a significant risk of hurting the rings and sleeves during startup due to oil starvation. Further, it is a good idea to give it some extra oil during the first few seconds it runs. The OMC rep suggested spraying fogging oil into the intake, or running a rich pre mix. Since many retailers (and hence customers) don't know about the startup procedure, many Orbital engines are severely damaged the first time they are started... The rep also claimed that OMC is having a lot of trouble getting mechanics to diagnose the (old fashioned) mechanical problems people are having with the engines. As soon as the built in diagnostic system can't tell what's wrong, mechanics tend to give up. The second generation Ficht system should take care of the problems, and OMC are upgrading the old engines, starting with the 98's, IIRC. The 97's have been less troubling, but there is or will be a kit out for them too. It seems that OMC are pushing Ficht onto new engines a lot faster than Mercury is pushing Orbital. It could be because Ficht is easier to retrofit than Orbital, but I suspect that it is because OMC are less scrupulous about testing than Mercury. > OMC has said as much on their website in the past. OK, I got the info from an Orbital engineer and an OMC rep. > They also listed a > bunch of problems they had with it, all problems that were adequately > solved by Mercury. This leads me to believe they prefer Ficht because > they were able to buy the technology outright and avoid paying > royalties. Another reason may be that they wanted a technology of their own, rather than being an "Orbital also ran"... Yet another may be that by the time OMC canceled their Orbital engine, it was clear that Orbital would not be a hit in the automotive world. Thus, economies of scale didn't look significanlty better for Orbital than for a home brewed system. Orbital is working hard on the (four stroke) automotive market these days, with the selling point that their DFI system runs unthrottled, which makes the engine more efficient at the low power levels where cars spend most of their time. Regards, John Hornkvist From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 12:34:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24154 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:34:11 -0400 Received: from edison.chisp.net (edison.chisp.net [207.174.31.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24151 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:34:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (ciciora@localhost) by edison.chisp.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18135 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:32:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:32:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ciciora To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #579 In-Reply-To: <199910140900.FAA19025@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 16:57:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27915 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:57:51 -0400 Received: from mailgw0.hal.com (mailgw0.hal.com [192.88.244.55]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27909; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:57:49 -0400 Received: from pedex.hal.com (pedex.hal.com [148.57.5.123]) by mailgw0.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21360; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peugeot.hal.com (peugeot.hal.com [148.57.73.131]) by pedex.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02041; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by peugeot.hal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09359; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910142057.NAA09359@peugeot.hal.com> From: Stuart Hastings To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu CC: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In-reply-to: <199910141900.PAA26208@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> (DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #580 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Speaking as a potential customer, the extra belt and air compressor > > used on the Orbital design look like additional parts to break. > > Of course. But a belt driven air compressor is not exactly rocket science... > > > The Ficht design has none of these parts. > > The Ficht has a whole lot of other parts to break. (And it seems to be doing > so with gusto...:)) Hmmm. Oddball injectors, computer to drive them, special alternator, and an oil injector in the crankcase... I guess you have better sources than I do, but I had understood that most (catastrophic) Ficht failures were related to internal engine parts, like pistons, rings, and cylinders. Stuff that was supposed to be well-debugged by now :-) . ... > True. They could have moved the precompression out of the crank case, using > a conventional "wet" crank case, and a screw compressor instead. That would > have given more efficient scavenging, and gotten rid of all oil in emissions. ... I doubt the marine engine manufacturers would fit a compressor unless required by smog regulations. It adds weight, complexity, and cost. But I personally would consider owning such an engine. > > More specifically, EPA is interested only in *air* pollution from > > marine engines. When they mandated oxygenated fuel, they indirectly > > required California fuel to incorporate MTBE, and nobody realized it > > would contaminate the *water*. > > This may be true. I read somewhere that it is doubtful that a significant > amount unburnt gasoline passes into the environment because of the high > temperature of the exhaust gases. It has been definitively shown here in California that most of the MTBE found in surface water (lakes, reservoirs) came from non-DFI two-cycle engines. Here in the Silicon Valley, the local water authority permits powerboats on three of our ten drinking water reservoirs. One of these is open to Personal Water Craft (e.g. Jetskis(tm)) at the beginning of every season, and promptly closed to them after the MTBE concentration rises above a certain threshold. PWC dealers in Northern California have mostly been driven out of business. My four-cycle boat is still permitted on all three reservoirs. When DFI manufacturers claim 25-30% improvements in fuel economy, they're talking about raw fuel that was formerly blown out the exhaust. This is a settled issue. > Since I'm not American, I won't claim to know how the EPA thinks or > works, though. The U.S. E.P.A. is a source of wonderment for us Americans, too :-) . > > Hello, EPA, most marine engines exhaust > > *underwater*, even if most of their smog immediately bubbles to the > > surface! > > That can easily be fixed with a holesaw, if you're worried. :) I'm not worried, because I insisted on four-cycle power when I bought my boat. I'm not a "greenie," but spitting oil (and/or gasoline) into the water dismays me, in spite of all genuine advantages of two-stroke engines on a boat. Most marine engines (in the U.S.) exhaust underwater because it's essentially required by the U.S. Coast Guard for basic safety. Boat-engine exhaust is typically mixed with water shortly after it leaves the engine. Most sterndrives (marinized car engines) have many rubber parts in the exhaust just downstream of the water port; if the water supply fails, the rubber parts promptly melt. If nothing in the boat is hot enough to start a fire, there should be fewer boat fires. Nobody was thinking about ecology when these rules were established. stuart hastings From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 22:36:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA31578 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:36:56 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA31574 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:36:54 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a21-0029.dialup.online.no [130.67.1.29]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11532 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:36:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910150236.EAA11532@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #580 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 04:33:53 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 > > hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for > > reliability as I see it. > > Do they really deliver it? Given that it has a lower unit that can't > reverse, it wouldn't make much sense for anything but racing. I think they used a standard gearcase, they didnt have to change the lower unit during the race.They saved lots of time that way. I havent sen any pictures or description of the lover unit they used. And as a racer > you get more power per cubic inch from an XR2, 2.5EFI or even a 300 ProMax. > > > I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring > > Are they any fun? Just problems so far, but nice to look at with mahle forged pistons, lots of ports .aluminium Nicasil treated sleeves. Big reed blocks. and the v8 inspired trottle body.The loverunits are beauties, I have a slightly modified Yamaha 225hp with nose cone that I have to fill with padding all the time, I want to weld it but maybe it will change because of the heat.Maybe the new lowerunits from Yamaha with biger skeg and low water pickups has the same gear and internals as the one I have . I have very modified Yamaha 200 What modifications have you done? that will get an EFI > system if it is still running when I can aford one (eg MADEFI) or find time I have looked at the mad efi myself, no I am hoping that 332 efi would do the trick. I would like to play with the ignition also... Do you have any info on recalibrating the ignition system on the Yamaha engine? > to build something... Performance below 4000 RPM is not exactly stunning when > using carbs. What hp does it make? I read somewhere that the ox66 engine used GM corvette ecu. > > They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As > > standard) > > Is this the 260hp version? Yes. > > The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. > > The 280hp machines? Yes. Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 14 22:38:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA31610 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:38:05 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA31607 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:38:03 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a21-0029.dialup.online.no [130.67.1.29]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA13035 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:38:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910150238.EAA13035@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #580 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 04:33:53 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 > > hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for > > reliability as I see it. > > Do they really deliver it? Given that it has a lower unit that can't > reverse, it wouldn't make much sense for anything but racing. I think they used a standard gearcase, they didnt have to change the lower unit during the race.They saved lots of time that way. I havent sen any pictures or description of the lover unit they used. And as a racer > you get more power per cubic inch from an XR2, 2.5EFI or even a 300 ProMax. > > > I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring > > Are they any fun? Just problems so far, but nice to look at with mahle forged pistons, lots of ports .aluminium Nicasil treated sleeves. Big reed blocks. and the v8 inspired trottle body.The loverunits are beauties, I have a slightly modified Yamaha 225hp with nose cone that I have to fill with padding all the time, I want to weld it but maybe it will change because of the heat.Maybe the new lowerunits from Yamaha with biger skeg and low water pickups has the same gear and internals as the one I have . I have very modified Yamaha 200 What modifications have you done? that will get an EFI > system if it is still running when I can aford one (eg MADEFI) or find time I have looked at the mad efi myself, no I am hoping that 332 efi would do the trick. I would like to play with the ignition also... Do you have any info on recalibrating the ignition system on the Yamaha engine? > to build something... Performance below 4000 RPM is not exactly stunning when > using carbs. What hp does it make? I read somewhere that the ox66 engine used GM corvette ecu. > > They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As > > standard) > > Is this the 260hp version? Yes. > > The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. > > The 280hp machines? Yes. Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 03:53:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01813 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:53:46 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01810 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:53:42 -0400 Received: from richm ([195.44.205.53]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:52:50 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: MEMS Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:50:25 +0100 Message-ID: <000001bf16e2$038f34c0$35cd2cc3@richm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199910131900.PAA07750@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:41:28 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #576 At 15:00 12/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >>All MEMS systems use as a minimum the following sensors: >>Additional sensors , depending on application, include: >>Knock >What does the knock sensor do? What does it mean if I don't have one Detects the onset of knocking and dynamically reduces the ignition timing advance to minimise it. Not all the systems implement knock, If you chose to use a system that does, but don't want to use it (or don't have anywhere to mount it) the best would be to have the sensor connected so that it doesn't create a sensor detection fault; the system will never see a knock signal, so will perform normally. >>Fuel rail temperature >Why? I think it's to do with hot start strategy when there could be the possibility of fuel vapourisation in the fuel rail. I've only seen this fitted on MPi applications, where the sensor is mounted on a boss, thermally attached to the fuel rail. >>All MEMS systems control ignition, either single coil or distributorless. >>All systems use a stepper motor controlled throttle stop for idle speed >>control. >Apart from the Mpi (97 on) minis which have a bypass valve which bleeds are >from the filter casing into the manifold. I wasn't aware of that - I've only ever seen steppers.... we live and learn. Rich From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 10:21:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06029 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:21:32 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:ur9kV1iWN94y90Bqt4SdOwr0UfInFwim@haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06024 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:21:30 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (dynamic-202-54.dialup.chalmers.se [129.16.202.54]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02670 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:21:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 20078 invoked by uid 100); 15 Oct 1999 13:32:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19991015133223.20077.qmail@glenn> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) In-Reply-To: <199910150900.FAA02534@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches [i386] (Enhance 2.2p2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2) From: nhoj@cd.chalmers.se Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:32:22 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: marine engine FI References: <199910150900.FAA02534@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Stuart Hastings wrote: > > The Ficht has a whole lot of other parts to break. (And it seems to be > > doing so with gusto...:)) > > Hmmm. Oddball injectors, computer to drive them, special alternator, > and an oil injector in the crankcase... I guess you have better > sources than I do, but I had understood that most (catastrophic) Ficht > failures were related to internal engine parts, like pistons, rings, > and cylinders. Stuff that was supposed to be well-debugged by now :-) . I don't think anything really breaks when the injectors stop working. After all, oil is passed another way. That's why you don't hear much about it, I guess. > > I doubt the marine engine manufacturers would fit a compressor unless > required by smog regulations. It adds weight, complexity, and cost. > But I personally would consider owning such an engine. Well, in theory they could move to slip bearings and a conventional crank. That would save a good pile of dough... > > This may be true. I read somewhere that it is doubtful that a significant > > amount unburnt gasoline passes into the environment because of the high > > temperature of the exhaust gases. > > It has been definitively shown here in California that most of the > MTBE found in surface water (lakes, reservoirs) came from non-DFI > two-cycle engines. OK. > Here in the Silicon Valley, the local water authority permits > powerboats on three of our ten drinking water reservoirs. One of these > is open to Personal Water Craft (e.g. Jetskis(tm)) at the beginning of > every season, and promptly closed to them after the MTBE concentration > rises above a certain threshold. PWC dealers in Northern California > have mostly been driven out of business. My four-cycle boat is still > permitted on all three reservoirs. Well, having any boats on water reservoirs is asking for trouble, IMHO. > When DFI manufacturers claim 25-30% improvements in fuel economy, > they're talking about raw fuel that was formerly blown out the > exhaust. This is a settled issue. Yes. My point was that the high temperature of the exhaust gases would cause oxidation of the hydrocarbons in the exhaust stream once they leave the low oxygen athomosphere of the engine. > > That can easily be fixed with a holesaw, if you're worried. :) > > I'm not worried, because I insisted on four-cycle power when I bought > my boat. I'm not a "greenie," but spitting oil (and/or gasoline) into > the water dismays me, in spite of all genuine advantages of two-stroke > engines on a boat. If there is a significant environmental problem with spitting fuel into the water, it should be avoided, of course. The problem with DFIs and two strokes is that there are none in the really high output segment. (Unless OMCs 250 has been released.) > Most marine engines (in the U.S.) exhaust underwater because it's > essentially required by the U.S. Coast Guard for basic > safety. Boat-engine exhaust is typically mixed with water shortly > after it leaves the engine. I know. Dry stacking changes the tuning characteristics of the pipe, since the exhaust gases have different acoustics, and more engergy, at the higher temperature. > Most sterndrives (marinized car engines) > have many rubber parts in the exhaust just downstream of the water > port; if the water supply fails, the rubber parts promptly melt. I have no experience with sterndrives; Swedish gas prices are about four times higher than American prices, so we try to keep boat sizes reasonable... > If nothing in the boat is hot enough to start a fire, there should be > fewer boat fires. Nobody was thinking about ecology when these rules > were established. Of course. The situation is a bit different with an outboard, though, since it hangs a fair bit behind the boat. (I have about 40cm offset, for example.) Regards, John Hornkvist From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 10:21:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06037 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:21:36 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:78WOoUeCYlUaWOwZDNyLC34JVnszaMuJ@haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06023 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:21:30 -0400 Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (dynamic-202-54.dialup.chalmers.se [129.16.202.54]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02671 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:21:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 20102 invoked by uid 100); 15 Oct 1999 14:03:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19991015140318.20101.qmail@glenn> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) In-Reply-To: <199910150900.FAA02534@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches [i386] (Enhance 2.2p2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2) From: nhoj@cd.chalmers.se Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:03:17 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: marine engine FI References: <199910150900.FAA02534@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Espen Hilde wrote: > > > I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line > boring > > > > Are they any fun? > Just problems so far, I've heard that they require far too much rebuilding for a "standard" engine. > but nice to look at with mahle forged pistons, > lots of ports .aluminium Nicasil treated sleeves. Big reed blocks. > and the v8 inspired trottle body. The loverunits are beauties, I have a > slightly modified Yamaha 225hp with nose cone that I have to fill with > padding all the time, I want to weld it but maybe it will change because of > the heat. What kind of filler do you use on the nose cone? (Mine is welded, and the paint is coming off, but the putty stays...) What kind of boat do you run those beasts on? I have a Hydrolift CR22. > Maybe the new lowerunits from Yamaha with biger skeg and > low water pickups has the same gear and internals as the one I have . I know someone who replaced the gears of a 150TRP gearhouse with the innards from a 225, or possibly 220. > I have very modified Yamaha 200 > What modifications have you done? Wayne Taylor heads and exhaust plate, HydroTec pipe (but that one is going to be replaced with a cut 225 pipe), ported front half, big intake and exhaust ports, shortened sleeves, cut pistons (forged from Wiseco), finger ports, dry stacked. I've also built a turboscope, but I've not had time to test and see if it makes a difference. > that will get an EFI > > system if it is still running when I can aford one (eg MADEFI) or find > time > I have looked at the mad efi myself, no I am hoping that 332 efi would > do the trick. If EFI 332 gets down to reasonable size; an 8x8 inch four layer board + driver boards is rather ridiculous, IMHO. Something like the ECU6 or ECU7 system would probably be good enough for an outboard, anyway. > I would like to play with the ignition also... > Do you have any info on recalibrating the ignition system on the Yamaha > engine? I don't, sadly. I know a Danish guy who may have the info, but I don't have his email address. He has a lot of tuning info from Yamaha. You may consider contacting them to find out... > > to build something... Performance below 4000 RPM is not exactly stunning > when > > using carbs. > What hp does it make? I don't really know. I had it tuned by a Swedish shop in Vasteras that have a DynaFlow, but they made a horrible mess of things. The porting they did was OK, but they made the heads totally wrong; the squish was going the wrong way, and the pistons kissed the heads. Then it gave 240hp from 6000 to 7000 RPM. In the boat I never got it to rev over 6200. Due to the mess they made of it, the crank broke after about 20 hours. Needless to say, I stay away from them these days. Now I have good heads, much larger ports and finger ports, and a modified exhaust system. 275-300 at 8000RPM is an educated guess. I don't wont to go much higher than 8000RPM, because that's how high Yamaha's own high output engine went. It used (or uses?) the same crank and bearings as the standard engines, but had longer rods and different pistons. (I don't think it used forged pistons, by the way.) The long rods make a huge difference I'm told. I think Hydrotec sells them, but I'm not sure. A bit too expensive for my taste, anyway. > I read somewhere that the ox66 engine used GM corvette ecu. Really? One would expect them to use Japanese components... That would be cool, though, because I bet there are lots of info on Corvett ECUs floating around. Regards, John Hornkvist From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 17:46:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13510 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:46:20 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13507; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:46:18 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA06278; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:45:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ali-ca23-29.ix.netcom.com(209.110.229.157) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006229; Fri Oct 15 16:45:42 1999 Message-ID: <3807A030.BECE47B7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:44:16 -0700 From: Doug Dayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Intro and SB Chev Recommendations... References: <199910151900.PAA10885@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all...my name is Doug Dayson...I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in CA...I'm a musician/audio engineer/producer and software engineer by trade... I'm currently researching converting my modified 71 Corvette Coupe to EFI...mostly because I run around with a club of people with newer Vettes that are injected and when we get into higher altitudes I can't compete w/o rejetting (which is a hassle) so... The Vette weighs 3200lbs with a half a tank and no driver...it has a "stock short rod" 406ci/375hp small block chev with TFS Aluminum Heads...Edlebrock Performer Manifold and modified Q-Jet carb...1 5/8" X 3" headers...hyd flat tappet cam timing is 218 @ .050 with a 110 LSA and .485 lift...it currently makes around 450 ft/lbs at 4000 rpm and 375 at 5000 rpm (all gross at the crank)...BTW it's already been converted to HEI ignition... It has a 89 700R4 four speed automatic trans with a 3.08 rear gear and 25.5" diameter X 8.5" wide tires...it's best at Searspoint Dragstrip (330 ft) has been a 12.87 at 112 on street tires (shifted at 5500 rpm)...amazing enough it does on average 19 mpg at cruise with the carb "IF" I keep my foot out of it (thanks to the OD and Lock-up Torque Converter)...a pretty good all around street motor...idles good...gets decent mileage...goes good etc...I guess I'm looking mostly to keep the same power curve (or better) and enjoy the increased driveability and economy that EFI can produce! Also of note...it's now smog exempt...though I'd imagine that any good EFI setup will improve tailpipe emissions which is good! And...hoping to do this swap with the engine in the car...so no engine dyno time...could do chassis dyno though if needed...expensive though! After all...as a pricing guideline..for $3700 you can get a "brand new" complete GM LT-4 350ci Crate motor (330 Hp Net) with GM EFI... So...with the above in mind (including my status as a EFI Newbie)...recommendations (for hopefully) under $2K complete on a conversion concept? 1) TBI or MPI...one issue is my fuel tank return line enters the tank up high (above the normal fuel level...hoping to not replumb the tank)...would this be a problem with MPI's higher fuel pressures vs TBI's lower pressures? 2) Agreed...the Accel Super Ram would make the best performance...BUT...too expensive...might not fit under hood...would probably kill the trans in short order (due to the extra torque)...best pricing seems to be Summit or Jegs...approx $1500 for manifold...runners...and TB...still need $700 + for GM sensors and ECM...chip and harness...fuel pump etc...$2200+ for parts...$3000 from Accel with Accel DFI ECM...and the GM ECM gives Altitude Sensing...Spark Control...Torque Converter Control...and Limp Home Mode all standard...these are all extra cost "options" as I understand it for Accel's DFI......what do you think...is there a better way? 2a) Accel DFI vs GM ECM with proper WOT calibration? 2c) Anyone using the FP Performance ECM with the wide band O2 sensor...for closed loop at all times including WOT? 3) How about the Electromotive kits? 4) How about the Howell TBI kits with the Holley TB and GM ECM? 5) I don't think that a modified TPI (big manifold...big TB...big runners and ported plenum) would be able to support a 406ci to 5500 rpm...is this correct? 5a) I also imagine that a modified as above TPI would cost as much as a Super Ram wouldn't it...and not be as effective? 6) Looking through the archives showed that most weren't happy with the Holley TBI...or Howell TBI...anybody have success with either of these systems as the pricing is right? 7) How about the single plane carb manifolds plumbed for MPI from Holley...Accel...Arizona Speed and Marine etc...anyone having success with these on the street? 7a) I understand that in a wet/flow manifold design the single plane would lose torque in the lower rpm ranges (under 4000 rpm or so vs a dual plane)...and that my conservative cam timing wouldn't allow the higher rpm needed to really use a single plane manifold...is this still the case in a converted to MPI single plane manifold (now dry/flow)...seems like the air velocity and cylinder filling would remain constant with or without the fuel being introduced? 7b) I know that Arizona Speed and Marine will plumb a high-rise dual plane manifold for MPI...anybody try such a thing? 8) Anybody use the Barry Grant VFI TBI? 9) Anyone try the TPIS Mini Ram? Sorry for the length...looking forward to your replies! Thanks a lot...Doug From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 18:40:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14201 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:40:13 -0400 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14198 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:40:06 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a24-0005.dialup.online.no [130.67.64.133]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA20432 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:39:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199910152239.AAA20432@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #580 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 04:33:53 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Mercury delivers a high perf 200 dfi that took 2 place at paris ruoen 24 > > hour (river) race.The ability to run lean burn conditions is great for > > reliability as I see it. > > Do they really deliver it? Given that it has a lower unit that can't > reverse, it wouldn't make much sense for anything but racing. I think they used a standard gearcase, they didnt have to change the lower unit during the race.They saved lots of time that way. I havent sen any pictures or description of the lover unit they used. And as a racer > you get more power per cubic inch from an XR2, 2.5EFI or even a 300 ProMax. > > > I have 2 2.5efi high performance engines that I am reparing, line boring > > Are they any fun? Just problems so far, but nice to look at with mahle forged pistons, lots of ports .aluminium Nicasil treated sleeves. Big reed blocks. and the v8 inspired trottle body.The loverunits are beauties, I have a slightly modified Yamaha 225hp with nose cone that I have to fill with padding all the time, I want to weld it but maybe it will change because of the heat.Maybe the new lowerunits from Yamaha with biger skeg and low water pickups has the same gear and internals as the one I have . I have very modified Yamaha 200 What modifications have you done? that will get an EFI > system if it is still running when I can aford one (eg MADEFI) or find time I have looked at the mad efi myself, no I am hoping that 332 efi would do the trick. I would like to play with the ignition also... Do you have any info on recalibrating the ignition system on the Yamaha engine? > to build something... Performance below 4000 RPM is not exactly stunning when > using carbs. What hp does it make? I read somewhere that the ox66 engine used GM corvette ecu. > > They have analog efi with old d-jetronic peek and hold injectors.(As > > standard) > > Is this the 260hp version? Yes. > > The new 2.5 efis has digital boxes ,Motorolabased. > > The 280hp machines? Yes. Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 15 19:49:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA15007 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:49:08 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15004; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:49:07 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-13.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.77]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA00336; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:49:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:49:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199910152349.SAA00336@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #582 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Massive snippage >What kind of filler do you use on the nose cone? (Mine is welded, and the >paint is coming off, but the putty stays...) > Personally, here at Cone Shaped Hat, HQ, I think spandex, would make for a good fit rather then filler.. Might start a trend wearing a hat on one's nose, maybe Dopey will volunteer, for the fashion segment.. Or use a spanddex liner, with the usual fannel/fleece outter shell. Hmmm. Has anyine seen any four strokes other then the Mercedes v-6 sedan car using an expansion chamber (s), like a 2 stroke. Any thoughts on why this might really be worthwhile, or just a cosmetic gimmick. Would have thought other teams would be working with it by now if it made a hill of beans difference... Cheers Grumpy Hey Dopey, where are ya??. From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 03:48:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA19285 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 03:48:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA19282 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 03:48:55 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ya073890 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:50:35 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991015201500.008e303c@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:15:00 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: RE: MEMS In-Reply-To: <199910150900.FAA02534@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 15/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >>What does the knock sensor do? What does it mean if I don't have one > >Detects the onset of knocking and dynamically reduces the ignition >timing advance to minimise it. Not all the systems implement knock, >If you chose to use a system that does, but don't want to use it (or >don't have anywhere to mount it) the best would be to have the sensor >connected so that it doesn't create a sensor detection fault; the >system will never see a knock signal, so will perform normally. My Rover manual doesn't mention a knock sensor so it cannot have one. (and we all trust rover don't we....yeah right) The manual says it plays with the timeing at idle. But I presume that once it comes off idle it just uses the map of MAP/REVs >I think it's to do with hot start strategy when there could be the >possibility of fuel vapourisation in the fuel rail. I've only seen this >fitted on MPi applications, where the sensor is mounted on a boss, thermally >attached to the fuel rail. Sounds reasonable.... >>>All MEMS systems control ignition, either single coil or distributorless. >>>All systems use a stepper motor controlled throttle stop for idle speed >>>control. > >>Apart from the Mpi (97 on) minis which have a bypass valve which bleeds are >>from the filter casing into the manifold. > >I wasn't aware of that - I've only ever seen steppers.... we live and learn. It is a stepper motor. But instead of an adjustable butterfly endstop. It is a 'pintle valve' (what ever that is) Which is adjusted by a stepper. The valve is mounted to the manifold where it does the turn towards the head. It has a hose that goes from the valve up to the filter side of the throttle body. Ade From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 06:58:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA20592 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:58:57 -0400 Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA20589 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:58:54 -0400 Received: from richm ([195.44.18.74]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:57:20 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: MEMS Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:52:13 +0100 Message-ID: <000001bf17c4$f261fc80$4a122cc3@richm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <199910160900.FAA19644@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: MEMS At 05:00 15/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >It is a stepper motor. But instead of an adjustable butterfly endstop. It >is a 'pintle valve' (what ever that is) Which is adjusted by a stepper. >The.valve is mounted to the manifold where it does the turn towards the >head. >It has a hose that goes from the valve up to the filter side of the >throttle body. That makes sense - like the earlier Lucas systems then.... >Ade From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 09:38:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21215 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:38:39 -0400 Received: from e450.mnsi.net (e450.mnsi.net [206.48.122.98]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21212 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:38:38 -0400 Received: from todd (dyn208-28-61-45.cha.mnsi.net [208.28.61.45]) by e450.mnsi.net (8.8.8/waffleiron) with SMTP id JAA22672 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991016094350.00818d30@in.mnsi.net> X-Sender: israels@in.mnsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:43:50 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Todd Israels Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #583 In-Reply-To: <199910160900.FAA19644@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 AM 10/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, October 16 1999 Volume 04 : Number 583 > > > > >Hello all...my name is Doug Dayson...I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in >CA...I'm a musician/audio engineer/producer and software engineer by trade... > >I'm currently researching converting my modified 71 Corvette Coupe to >EFI...mostly because I run around with a club of people with newer Vettes that are >injected and when we get into higher altitudes I can't compete w/o rejetting >(which is a hassle) so... > >The Vette weighs 3200lbs with a half a tank and no driver...it has a "stock short >rod" 406ci/375hp small block chev with TFS Aluminum Heads...Edlebrock >Performer Manifold and modified Q-Jet carb...1 5/8" X 3" headers...hyd flat >tappet cam timing is 218 @ .050 with a 110 LSA and .485 lift...it currently >makes around 450 ft/lbs at 4000 rpm and 375 at 5000 rpm (all gross at the >crank)...BTW it's already been converted to HEI ignition... > The easyest conversion is a complete drivetrain swap from an EFI car, all parts are matched and work well toghther. You can get a VERY complete setup from some wreckers, but most are butchers and will damage or lose many parts. A very good source is buy a wreck off an insurence company before the wreckers get at it. If that does not work out for you and you want to keep your current engine I think a GM 454SS throttel boddy and GM truck ecm should provide the airflow needed and the ecm has been well hacked so it is not too difficult to tweek for your engine, anthough I expect the stock callibration will start and run fairly well It will not be a perfect calibration. The TBI uses less fuel pressure ans most if not all of your carb plumbing should be reuseable. If you are really lucky you will alredy have an in tank fuel pump that is the same body as a tbi pump so all that is needed is a pump change. There is a GM ECM list that may be of more help if you decide to try this setup. Best of luck Todd Israels From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 11:40:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22515 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:40:31 -0400 Received: from problem.problem.org (gateway.problem.org [209.47.148.176] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22512 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:40:29 -0400 Received: by problem.problem.org (Smail3.2.0.104 #1) id m11cW42-0000GhC; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #583 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:48:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199910160900.FAA19644@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "DIY_EFI Digest" at Oct 16, 99 05:00:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #582 good to see you back in action Bruce when do you get out of the shop? > > Has anyine seen any four strokes other then the Mercedes v-6 sedan car using > an expansion chamber (s), like a 2 stroke. > Any thoughts on why this might really be worthwhile, or just a cosmetic > gimmick. Would have thought other teams would be working with it by now if > it made a hill of beans difference... it may allow for a more radical ex cam pattern without any torque loss Clive From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 14:49:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24410 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:49:22 -0400 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24407 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:49:21 -0400 Received: from [207.49.39.185] (w36.cmn.net [207.49.39.185]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19787; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:11 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:50:47 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #583 Cc: djdayson@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:44:16 -0700 >From: Doug Dayson >Subject: Intro and SB Chev Recommendations... > >Hello all...my name is Doug Dayson...I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in >CA...I'm a musician/audio engineer/producer and software engineer by trade... > >I'm currently researching converting my modified 71 Corvette Coupe to >EFI...mostly because I run around with a club of people with newer Vettes >that are >injected and when we get into higher altitudes I can't compete w/o rejetting >(which is a hassle) so... > Hi Doug-- Hopefully Tom Sharpe will chime in here, he has done a bunch of Chebbies. So has Carl Summers. My $.02-- Of the systems you have named, FP is far and away the class of the group. Another one in the same price/performance class is the Autronics unit (www.turbofast.com)--which uses the 68332 processor. One possible dealer for the FP unit is Jack Cotton, who can be found on the gnttype (Buick) list (www.gnttype.org). I think he sells them pretty reasonably. The wide band O2 option is WELL worth having--mebbe Gar will chime in here, there may be a diy WBO2 unit available through this list fairly soon. Do a word search on EGOR in the archives for some INTERESTING reading on this subject! As for the manifold--you might check out Force EFI besides the ones you mentioned. Regards, Greg From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 17:31:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25810 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:31:40 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25807; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:31:38 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-17.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.81]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA23370; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:31:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:31:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199910162131.QAA23370@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #584 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) >> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #582 > >good to see you back in action Bruce >when do you get out of the shop? Have to spend a week, in a half way house (remot building from hospital). Doc mentioned moving over there this next week. I have a biopsy due thurs. so alot hangs on that for when I go home. Also, have to have a family member here for 4-5 days to learn the meds, and life style changes. BTW, staples and stitches came out today >> >> Has anyine seen any four strokes other then the Mercedes v-6 sedan car using >> an expansion chamber (s), like a 2 stroke. >> Any thoughts on why this might really be worthwhile, or just a cosmetic >> gimmick. Would have thought other teams would be working with it by now if >> it made a hill of beans difference... > > >it may allow for a more radical ex cam pattern without any torque loss Sound like something for a SBC.... Thanks Grumpy > >Clive From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 16 22:37:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28471 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:37:15 -0400 Received: from mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28468 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:37:14 -0400 Received: from cname ([12.72.64.45]) by mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19991017023708.VJJS19487@cname> for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 02:37:08 +0000 From: "Carl Summers" To: "Diy_Efi" Subject: EFI for 71 vette Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001201bf1848$c9ba3980$2d40480c@cname> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <0.dcc82864.253a89f6@aol.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Doug, There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a few.....the downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and sensors,,,,you can buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am even having the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl -Carl Summers p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about using a proven GM system...... > > In a message dated 10/16/99 12:22:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > > << Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:50:47 -0600 > From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #583 > > >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:44:16 -0700 > >From: Doug Dayson > >Subject: Intro and SB Chev Recommendations... > > > >Hello all...my name is Doug Dayson...I live in the San > Francisco Bay Area in > >CA...I'm a musician/audio engineer/producer and software engineer by > trade... > > > >I'm currently researching converting my modified 71 Corvette Coupe to > >EFI...mostly because I run around with a club of people with > newer Vettes > >that are > >injected and when we get into higher altitudes I can't compete > w/o rejetting > >(which is a hassle) so... > > > Hi Doug-- > > Hopefully Tom Sharpe will chime in here, he has done a bunch of Chebbies. > So has Carl Summers. > > My $.02-- > > Of the systems you have named, FP is far and away the class of the group. > Another one in the same price/performance class is the Autronics unit > (www.turbofast.com)--which uses the 68332 processor. > > One possible dealer for the FP unit is Jack Cotton, who can be > found on the > gnttype (Buick) list (www.gnttype.org). I think he sells them pretty > reasonably. > > The wide band O2 option is WELL worth having--mebbe Gar will > chime in here, > there may be a diy WBO2 unit available through this list fairly > soon. Do a > word search on EGOR in the archives for some INTERESTING reading on this > subject! > > As for the manifold--you might check out Force EFI besides the ones you > mentioned. > > Regards, Greg > >> > > From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 17 10:21:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01241 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:21:30 -0400 Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [209.57.253.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01238 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:21:29 -0400 Received: from gderian (dialcust-122.ts3.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.1.122]) by users.qual.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA25064 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <012101bf18a9$2b5391e0$7a01d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <199910161900.PAA24448@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #584 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:39:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I haven't seen it but I've heard about it. It seems to me to be similar to what Greg H described in having an expansion chamber to fool the exhaust into thinking it has reached the end of the pipe. Also the megaphones cause pressure waves to be reflected back to the engine over a larger rpm range. 4 stroke motorcycles have used megaphones. The design is not quite like a 2 stroke pipe, though. I don't think a 2 stroke style will work on a 4 stroke. Gary Derian > > > > Has anyine seen any four strokes other then the Mercedes v-6 sedan car using > > an expansion chamber (s), like a 2 stroke. > > Any thoughts on why this might really be worthwhile, or just a cosmetic > > gimmick. Would have thought other teams would be working with it by now if > > it made a hill of beans difference... > > > it may allow for a more radical ex cam pattern without any torque loss > > Clive From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 17 16:10:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05205 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:10:33 -0400 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05202 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:10:32 -0400 Received: from [207.49.39.184] (w35.cmn.net [207.49.39.184]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA10504 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:03:54 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:12:31 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #586 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, October 17 1999 Volume 04 : Number 586 > > > >In this issue: > > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #584 > >See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:39:47 -0400 >From: "Gary Derian" >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #584 > >I haven't seen it but I've heard about it. It seems to me to be similar to >what Greg H described in having an expansion chamber to fool the exhaust >into thinking it has reached the end of the pipe. Also the megaphones cause >pressure waves to be reflected back to the engine over a larger rpm range. >4 stroke motorcycles have used megaphones. The design is not quite like a 2 >stroke pipe, though. I don't think a 2 stroke style will work on a 4 >stroke. A megaphone is also a pretty effective (and efficient) device for converting gas velocity back into static pressure. Since the atatic pressure at the end of the megaphone is pretty much equal to atmospheric, that means that the convergent (nozzle) point of the collector, at the small end of the megaphone, will be at a static pressure below atmospheric, and the engine will effectively be running against a lower back-pressure than it does without the megaphone. As always--lower backpressure equates to less pumping losses in the engine, and therefore higher net output, particularly at high engine speeds/flows. Greg From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 03:57:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA14214 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:57:50 -0400 Received: from Prime-FE2.lvcablemodem.com (pop3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14211 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:57:49 -0400 Received: from pop3.lvcablemodem.com - 24.234.0.11 by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:05:21 -0700 Received: from itsmike (dhcp002.62.lvcm.com [24.234.62.2]) by pop3.lvcablemodem.com with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:05:20 -0700 From: "Mike" To: Subject: RE: EFI for 71 vette Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:00:54 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <199910170900.FAA31643@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu what kind of throtel body are you going to run? Im interested in doing a efi for a 454 im building. Right now im doing a 72 chevy p/u with a tpi. what kinda cars did th 7730 come in? mike > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 -0700 > From: "Carl Summers" > Subject: EFI for 71 vette > > Hi Doug, > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a > few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and > sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do > this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am > even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... > > From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 09:49:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17928 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:32 -0400 Received: from mail01-ewr.pilot.net (mail-ewr-1.pilot.net [206.98.230.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17925 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:31 -0400 From: John_Calabrese@ENGELHARD.COM Received: from mailgw.engelhard.com ([204.48.27.154]) by mail01-ewr.pilot.net with ESMTP id JAA22152 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MAIL1.ENGELHARD.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw.engelhard.com with SMTP id JAA28259 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by MAIL1.ENGELHARD.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 8525680E.004C6815 ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:54:33 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ENGELHARD To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <8525680E.004C65ED.00@MAIL1.ENGELHARD.COM> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:00:07 -0400 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #585 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Carl, I am interested, I might have to do this sometime soon with my 383 BB mopar. Thanks >>,you can >>buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a >>search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if >>you are interested... From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 10:13:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18380 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:51 -0400 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18377 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:50 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jEEBa19934 (3975) for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.293f71a1.253c84f6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:10 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #587 efi for 71 vette To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Right now I have a single blade large round TB originally off a First EFI system (equates to about 950 cfm by square area) but am thinking of getting one of the large single oval TPI type TB's from TPIS(1350 cfm).... -Carl Summers In a message dated 10/18/99 2:24:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:00:54 -0700 From: "Mike" Subject: RE: EFI for 71 vette what kind of throtel body are you going to run? Im interested in doing a efi for a 454 im building. Right now im doing a 72 chevy p/u with a tpi. what kinda cars did th 7730 come in? mike > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 -0700 > From: "Carl Summers" > Subject: EFI for 71 vette > > Hi Doug, > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a > few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and > sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do > this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am > even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... > >> From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 11:53:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20098 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:53:27 -0400 Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA20093 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:53:23 -0400 Message-ID: <19991018155418.14264.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.204.55.242] by web2003.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:54:18 PDT Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Moon Subject: Injector sizing To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... Hmm. Speaking of correct injector sizing, how can I find the correct size for my Ninja 900? I was performing some calculations, and it appears the bike has airflow similar to that of an LT-1 or modified Mustang (72mm single-plate TB, 52mm dual-plate TB). Does that suggest that I would need the same size injectors? I know stock Mustang 5.0s have 19lb/hr injectors, and those using 70mm TBs typically have 24lb/hr squirters. Dunno what Corvettes and Camaros use. Also, any idea on how to set up an initial fuel map? I'm working out a system to use closed loop below 1/2 throttle and 6000 RPMs, then go to a mapped open loop above either entry test. However, I don't wish to kill the 900 immediately when I fire it up... I was thinking I could find the correct injector, then look up (somehow) the engineering specs for said injector, and perform some calculations to get the (hopefully) required PW for the given airflow. Thanks, Bob Moon '99 Dodge Durango - Brutus '92 Shadow 1100C - The Shadow '85 GPz900 - Phoenix - Test Bed '82 XL250R - Frankenstein '81 YZ125H - The Wiz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 13:54:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23085 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:54:44 -0400 Received: from emerald.oz.net (emerald.oz.net [216.39.128.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23081 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:54:41 -0400 Received: from holling (sense-sea-pm1-4.oz.net [216.39.133.4]) by emerald.oz.net (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA12157 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <018a01bf1992$4e787520$048527d8@holling> From: "The Holling's" To: References: <199909211900.PAA32543@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Fuel Injector ID'ing? Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I came across some fuel injectors but the owner doesn't know much else about them other than a part # (17104487B). Can anyone decode who or what size these injectors are? thanks, -Jesse From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 18 19:25:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30805 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:25:41 -0400 Received: from lstc1.Linnstate.edu (lstc1.linnstate.edu [207.160.145.125]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA30802 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:25:38 -0400 Received: by lstc1.linnstate.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:25:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: Jim Brandon To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:25:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF19C0.149BF5A6" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF19C0.149BF5A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" How exactly do you use the prom equipment talked about on E-bay to calibrate OEM computers? -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588 DIY_EFI Digest Monday, October 18 1999 Volume 04 : Number 588 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #585 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #587 efi for 71 vette Injector sizing Fuel Injector ID'ing? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:00:07 -0400 From: John_Calabrese@ENGELHARD.COM Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #585 Carl, I am interested, I might have to do this sometime soon with my 383 BB mopar. Thanks >>,you can >>buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a >>search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if >>you are interested... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:10 EDT From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #587 efi for 71 vette Hi, Right now I have a single blade large round TB originally off a First EFI system (equates to about 950 cfm by square area) but am thinking of getting one of the large single oval TPI type TB's from TPIS(1350 cfm).... - -Carl Summers In a message dated 10/18/99 2:24:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:00:54 -0700 From: "Mike" Subject: RE: EFI for 71 vette what kind of throtel body are you going to run? Im interested in doing a efi for a 454 im building. Right now im doing a 72 chevy p/u with a tpi. what kinda cars did th 7730 come in? mike > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 -0700 > From: "Carl Summers" > Subject: EFI for 71 vette > > Hi Doug, > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a > few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and > sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do > this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am > even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... > >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Moon Subject: Injector sizing > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... Hmm. Speaking of correct injector sizing, how can I find the correct size for my Ninja 900? I was performing some calculations, and it appears the bike has airflow similar to that of an LT-1 or modified Mustang (72mm single-plate TB, 52mm dual-plate TB). Does that suggest that I would need the same size injectors? I know stock Mustang 5.0s have 19lb/hr injectors, and those using 70mm TBs typically have 24lb/hr squirters. Dunno what Corvettes and Camaros use. Also, any idea on how to set up an initial fuel map? I'm working out a system to use closed loop below 1/2 throttle and 6000 RPMs, then go to a mapped open loop above either entry test. However, I don't wish to kill the 900 immediately when I fire it up... I was thinking I could find the correct injector, then look up (somehow) the engineering specs for said injector, and perform some calculations to get the (hopefully) required PW for the given airflow. Thanks, Bob Moon '99 Dodge Durango - Brutus '92 Shadow 1100C - The Shadow '85 GPz900 - Phoenix - Test Bed '82 XL250R - Frankenstein '81 YZ125H - The Wiz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:48 -0700 From: "The Holling's" Subject: Fuel Injector ID'ing? I came across some fuel injectors but the owner doesn't know much else about them other than a part # (17104487B). Can anyone decode who or what size these injectors are? thanks, - -Jesse ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF19C0.149BF5A6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588

How exactly do you use the prom equipment talked = about on E-bay to calibrate OEM computers?


-----Original Message-----
From: = DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:DI= Y_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:00 PM
To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588



DIY_EFI = Digest        Monday, October 18 = 1999        Volume 04 : Number = 588



In this issue:

        Re: = DIY_EFI Digest V4 #585
        Re: = DIY_EFI Digest V4 #587 efi for 71 vette
        Injector = sizing
        Fuel = Injector ID'ing?

See the end of the digest for information on = subscribing to the
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:00:07 -0400
From: John_Calabrese@ENGELHARD.COM
Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #585

Carl,
I am interested, I might have to do this sometime = soon with my 383 BB mopar.
Thanks


>>,you can
>>buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on = ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a
>>search under eprom....I will go into further = detail on how to do this job if
>>you are interested...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:10 EDT
From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com
Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #587 efi for 71 = vette

Hi,
     Right now I have a single = blade large round TB originally off a First
EFI system (equates to about 950 cfm by square area) = but am thinking of
getting one of the large single oval TPI type TB's = from TPIS(1350 cfm)....
- -Carl Summers

In a message dated 10/18/99 2:24:24 AM Pacific = Daylight Time,
DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu = writes:

<<
 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:00:54 -0700
 From: "Mike" = <Itsmike@lvcm.com>
 Subject: RE: EFI for 71 vette
 
 what kind of throtel body are you going to = run? Im interested in doing a efi
 for a 454 im building. Right now im doing a 72 = chevy p/u with a tpi. what
 kinda cars did th 7730 come in?
 
 mike
 
 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 = -0700
 > From: "Carl Summers" = <intech@writeme.com>
 > Subject: EFI for 71 vette
 >
 > Hi Doug,
 >     There are some = really nice units out there but I still haven't seen
 > anything I like(under $5000.00) better = than a GM computer for a daily
 > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for = better gas mileage, spark knock
 > control and even checks for octane upon = start up to just name a
 > few.....the
 > downside is without software to make the = job easier you have to do a bunch
 > of work in hex once you locate the = tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is
 > completely available) Use any manifold = you want, get the correct size
 > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm = distibutor and
 > sensors,,,,you can
 > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on = ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a
 > search under eprom....I will go into = further detail on how to do
 > this job if
 > you are interested...I am currently doing = a 68 camaro with a 396 multi
 > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a = custom plenum) and am
 > even having
 > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment = and spark table for the
 > nitrous(still working on that but close) = This car should run 11's without
 > nitrous and 10's with(traction a = factor)......ttyl
 > - -Carl Summers
 > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and = have an awesome RELIABLE
 > system.....check the aftermarkets failure = rate....then think again about
 > using a proven GM system......
 >
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Moon <fzrider@yahoo.com>
Subject: Injector sizing

>     There are some really = nice units out there but I still haven't seen
> anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a = GM computer for a daily
> driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better = gas mileage, spark knock
> control and even checks for octane upon start = up to just name a few.....the
> downside is without software to make the job = easier you have to do a bunch
> of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the = breakdown of the 7730 is
> completely available) Use any manifold you = want, get the correct size
> injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm = distibutor and sensors,,,,you can
> buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( = http://www.ebay.com ) do a
> search under eprom....I will go into further = detail on how to do this job if
> you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 = camaro with a 396 multi
> port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a = custom plenum) and am even having
> the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and = spark table for the
> nitrous(still working on that but close) This = car should run 11's without
> nitrous and 10's with(traction a = factor)......ttyl
> - -Carl Summers
> p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have = an awesome RELIABLE
> system.....check the aftermarkets failure = rate....then think again about
> using a proven GM system......

Hmm.  Speaking of correct injector sizing, how = can I find the correct size for
my Ninja 900?  I was performing some = calculations, and it appears the bike has
airflow similar to that of an LT-1 or modified = Mustang (72mm single-plate TB,
52mm dual-plate TB).  Does that suggest that I = would need the same size
injectors?  I know stock Mustang 5.0s have = 19lb/hr injectors, and those using
70mm TBs typically have 24lb/hr squirters.  = Dunno what Corvettes and Camaros
use.

Also, any idea on how to set up an initial fuel = map?  I'm working out a system
to use closed loop below 1/2 throttle and 6000 RPMs, = then go to a mapped open
loop above either entry test.  However, I don't = wish to kill the 900
immediately when I fire it up...  I was = thinking I could find the correct
injector, then look up (somehow) the engineering = specs for said injector, and
perform some calculations to get the (hopefully) = required PW for the given
airflow.

Thanks,

Bob Moon
'99 Dodge Durango - Brutus
'92 Shadow 1100C - The Shadow
'85 GPz900 - Phoenix - Test Bed
'82 XL250R - Frankenstein
'81 YZ125H - The Wiz
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:48 -0700
From: "The Holling's" = <holling@oz.net>
Subject: Fuel Injector ID'ing?

I came across some fuel injectors but the owner = doesn't know much else about
them other than a part # (17104487B). Can anyone = decode who or what size
these injectors are?

thanks,
- -Jesse

------------------------------

End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588
*****************************

To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the = command:

    subscribe diy_efi-digest

in the body of a message to = "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". 

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is = also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace = "diy_efi-digest" in the command
 above with "diy_efi".

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF19C0.149BF5A6-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 08:53:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07114 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:53:54 -0400 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07111 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:53:53 -0400 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id HAA06439; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:52 -0500 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma006437; Tue, 19 Oct 99 07:53:38 -0500 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01742 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <380C6922.DBDF2671@arm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:50:42 -0500 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: prom burners References: <199910190900.FAA05038@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:25:30 -0500 > From: Jim Brandon > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #588 > > How exactly do you use the prom equipment talked about on E-bay to calibrate > OEM computers? > You use the prom burner to copy the EPROM data into a "bin" file. Then you use one of several bin editors to make the changes that you want to timing, fuel, etc. Then you use the prom burner again to copy your changes to a now EPROM, and insert that into your ECM. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 09:07:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07462 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:07:05 -0400 Received: from ilma.cc.lut.fi (qmailr@ilma.cc.lut.fi [157.24.8.113]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA07459 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:07:04 -0400 Received: (qmail 1228 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1999 13:07:02 -0000 Received: from sk28-f-17-2.lnet.lut.fi (HELO lut.fi) (157.24.104.210) by ilma.cc.lut.fi with SMTP; 19 Oct 1999 13:07:02 -0000 Message-ID: <380C6CF7.CE605C3B@lut.fi> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:07:03 +0300 From: Pekka Ripatti X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #589 References: <199910190900.FAA05038@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu What an earth is this HTML-crap doing in my e-mail? RPekka -- From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 10:53:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09244 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:39 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f300.hotmail.com [209.185.130.89]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA09241 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:38 -0400 Received: (qmail 84258 invoked by uid 0); 19 Oct 1999 14:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19991019145307.84257.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 216.64.129.57 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT X-Originating-IP: [216.64.129.57] From: "Gary Moulton" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Manual control of IAC motor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt reversable dc motor? Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance Gary M gmoabrim@lasal.net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 14:45:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13874 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:45:33 -0400 Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13870 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:45:32 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jVRH0Oe3JX (4328) for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.a7ecd68d.253e1629@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:44:57 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #589 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu an eprom is an eprom is an eprom,,,,,doesn't matter what it's used in...not GM specific....hth's -Carl Summers p.s. a 7730 is used in 90-92 camaro/firebirds and others In a message dated 10/19/99 2:29:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << How exactly do you use the prom equipment talked about on E-bay to calibrate OEM computers? - -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [m >> From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 16:37:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16750 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:37:02 -0400 Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16747 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:37:01 -0400 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jISIa27079 (4575) for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.cc2458fc.253e303e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:36:14 EDT Subject: RE: Manual control of IAC motor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 10/19/99 1:29:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt reversable dc motor? >> Sound like a job for STEPPER MOTOR CONTROLLER The circuit is more involved that just attaching power to it. A stepper motor controller will switch polarity on the stepper motor such rotation and speed is controlled. If your really interested, I could try to dig up some stepper motor controller info. The web should have some info on "Stepper motor controller" Good luck, Mike From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 17:04:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:04:06 -0400 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17253 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:04:05 -0400 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id QAA08068; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:04:04 -0500 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma008066; Tue, 19 Oct 99 16:03:20 -0500 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14526 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:03:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <380CDBD6.20A19B24@arm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:00:06 -0500 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: IAC motor References: <199910191900.PAA14488@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT > From: "Gary Moulton" > Subject: Manual control of IAC motor > > Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and > out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. > Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt > reversable dc motor? > > Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to > do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when > off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. > I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual > control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. > There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it > should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance > > Gary M > gmoabrim@lasal.net Gary, the IAC is a stepper motor. There's a very good explanation of steppers on the internet right here: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/ A stepper motor has two coils in it, and the ends of both coils are brought out to the harness resulting in 4 wires. If you energize one coil the rotor will rotate to a position aligned with that coil. If you energize the second coil the rotor will rotate a little bit to be aligned between the two coils. If you turn off the first coil the rotor will rotate a little more to line up directly with the second coil. If you energise the first coil again with the opposite polarity of the first time the rotor will rotate a little more, and so on. Basically the ECM applies pulses in a particular sequence to the four wires to produce rotation, where each pulse results in some amount of rotation of the motor (a couple degrees or so). The motor can be made to spin either direction by changing the polarity of the pulses. That's a simplified explanation, if you want more details the link above has everything you could want and then some. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 17:52:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18088 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:48 -0400 Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18084; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:47 -0400 Received: from ix.netcom.com (ali-ca22-05.ix.netcom.com [209.110.229.69]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16643; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380CDC0A.60921020@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:00:59 -0700 From: Doug Dayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CarlSummers , Post DIY_EFI , Post DIY_EFI Digest Subject: EFI for 71 vette Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Carl...thanks for the reply...I'd love to hear more about that Camaro of your's! I'm not familiar with the realibility records of the aftermarket systems...please enlighten me... I certainly agree with the "keep it all GM" concept...in that I do drive it long distances and it would be great to have the ability to service it at any GM dealer if needed while in the "boondocks"... Currently my engine only consumes somewhere around 625 cfm max...I believe that the BB TBI's flow 670 cfm so I too have thought about a BB TBI...Holley makes a SB TBI manifold good for 6000 rpm as well...I'll have to check it's height though? Questions... a) Are we assuming the the stock closed loop portions of the fuel and spark maps will be close enough...and that just the open loop WOT stuff would need adjustment...as well as the spark curve probably...I'm emissions exempt so I won't be needing canister purging or egr etc... b) Will the truck TBI ECM do Torque Converter Lock-Up...that would be nice to put back in the car...currently defeated with the carb etc...I assume that it will? c) There seems to be a fuel delievery problem however...Holley sells a 2 barrel TBI rig and rates it for only 275HP with two 80 lb./hr injectors...will these things pass enough fuel for me...don't want to go lean at the big end... What's the SS454's output and at what rpm does it occur? I figure to be making 425HP @ 5250 with my roller cam upgrade...will need to support that! d) Would be very interested in info regarding the calibration process and procedures...tech writings etc...I have access to a EPROM burner etc... Thanks again...looking forward to hearing from you... Doug P.S...is digest the only way to recieve the list at this time? > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:39:08 -0700 > From: "Carl Summers" > Subject: EFI for 71 vette > > Hi Doug, > There are some really nice units out there but I still haven't seen > anything I like(under $5000.00) better than a GM computer for a daily > driver,,,it offers you closed loop for better gas mileage, spark knock > control and even checks for octane upon start up to just name a few.....the > downside is without software to make the job easier you have to do a bunch > of work in hex once you locate the tables..(the breakdown of the 7730 is > completely available) Use any manifold you want, get the correct size > injectors(we can help with that) Use a Gm distibutor and sensors,,,,you can > buy an eprom burner and erasure cheap on ebay( http://www.ebay.com ) do a > search under eprom....I will go into further detail on how to do this job if > you are interested...I am currently doing a 68 camaro with a 396 multi > port(my own, basically a tunnel ram and a custom plenum) and am even having > the GM 7730 control the fuel enrichment and spark table for the > nitrous(still working on that but close) This car should run 11's without > nitrous and 10's with(traction a factor)......ttyl > - -Carl Summers > p.s. you can do this very reasonable and have an awesome RELIABLE > system.....check the aftermarkets failure rate....then think again about > using a proven GM system...... > > > > In a message dated 10/16/99 12:22:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > > From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 17:52:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18101 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:55 -0400 Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18097; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:53 -0400 Received: from ix.netcom.com (ali-ca22-05.ix.netcom.com [209.110.229.69]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11175; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380CDD31.66169613@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:05:53 -0700 From: Doug Dayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Hermann , Post DIY_EFI , Post DIY_EFI Digest Subject: EFI for 71 Vette Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Greg... Thanks for the reply...I'll check out your ideas below...keep the list up to date on the EGOR... Thanks again...Doug > Hi Doug-- > > Hopefully Tom Sharpe will chime in here, he has done a bunch of Chebbies. > So has Carl Summers. > > My $.02-- > > Of the systems you have named, FP is far and away the class of the group. > Another one in the same price/performance class is the Autronics unit > (www.turbofast.com)--which uses the 68332 processor. > > One possible dealer for the FP unit is Jack Cotton, who can be > found on the > gnttype (Buick) list (www.gnttype.org). I think he sells them pretty > reasonably. > > The wide band O2 option is WELL worth having--mebbe Gar will > chime in here, > there may be a diy WBO2 unit available through this list fairly > soon. Do a > word search on EGOR in the archives for some INTERESTING reading on this > subject! > > As for the manifold--you might check out Force EFI besides the ones you > mentioned. > > Regards, Greg > << Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:50:47 -0600 > From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #583 > > >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:44:16 -0700 > >From: Doug Dayson > >Subject: Intro and SB Chev Recommendations... > > > >Hello all...my name is Doug Dayson...I live in the San > Francisco Bay Area in > >CA...I'm a musician/audio engineer/producer and software engineer by > trade... > > > >I'm currently researching converting my modified 71 Corvette Coupe to > >EFI...mostly because I run around with a club of people with > newer Vettes > >that are > >injected and when we get into higher altitudes I can't compete > w/o rejetting > >(which is a hassle) so... > > > >> From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 17:59:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18207 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:59:57 -0400 Received: from mail3.cadvision.com (mail3.cadvision.com [207.228.64.48]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18204 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:59:56 -0400 Received: from mani.hitech ([209.47.104.4]) by mail3.cadvision.com (8.9.3/8.9.1/CW) with SMTP id PAA32019 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:59:48 -0600 Message-ID: <00ef01bf1a7d$9f8fd160$04682fd1@hitech> From: "Al Jurenas" To: References: <199910191900.PAA14488@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: Manual control of IAC motor, DIY_EFI Digest V4 #590: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:02:10 -0600 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Gary, If it's like my 90 GM, the IAC is a stepper motor. The pintle is on a worm gear, and rotation moves it in and out. The coils take turns to rotate the pintle by 90 deg. At any time, one coil is in an 'enabled' position and can rotate the pintle in either direction, the other coil is in a neutral position (will not cause the pintle to rotate). So you apply a voltage to Coil A, the pintle will turn 1/4 rev in some direction. If it doesn't turn, then the other coil is enabled (needs to be activated first). The opposite polarity (on coil A) would have turned it in the opposite direction. Apply a voltage to the second coil (coil B), and it will rotate in the same direction another 1/4 turn, or back the way you came. Switch polarity if necessary. You can build a stepper switch with one DPDT latching-latching switch and one SPDT momentary-center-momentary switch. This will let you move the pintle in or out, one step at a time, by toggling the SPDT to alternate sides.. Hope this helps, and I hope my info is correct. Al | ------------------------------ | | Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT | From: "Gary Moulton" | Subject: Manual control of IAC motor | | Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and | out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. | Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt | reversable dc motor? | | Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to | do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when | off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. | I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual | control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. | There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it | should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance | | Gary M | gmoabrim@lasal.net | From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 19 18:09:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18265 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:09:22 -0400 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18262 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:09:20 -0400 Received: from johnd [199.175.106.132] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11dhOX-0006k8C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001a01bf1a7f$1969dc00$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Re: Manual control of IAC motor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:04:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gary, Odds are this is a stepper motor and the motor is moved forward and back by energizing the coils in sequence. Check out L293D series device as a possible chip for driving the motor. John Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT >From: "Gary Moulton" >Subject: Manual control of IAC motor > >Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and >out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. >Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt >reversable dc motor? > >Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to >do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when >off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. >I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual >control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. >There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it >should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance > >Gary M >gmoabrim@lasal.net > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:44:57 EDT >From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #589 > >an eprom is an eprom is an eprom,,,,,doesn't matter what it's used in...not >GM specific....hth's >- -Carl Summers >p.s. a 7730 is used in 90-92 camaro/firebirds and others > >In a message dated 10/19/99 2:29:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > ><< > How exactly do you use the prom equipment talked about on E-bay to calibrate > OEM computers? > > > - -----Original Message----- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [m >> > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #590 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 20 06:54:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26606 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 06:54:00 -0400 Received: from ilau.il.mt.np.els-gms.att.net (ilau.il.mt.np.els-gms.att.net [199.191.147.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA26603 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 06:53:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:47:02 +0000 From: bmoseley@attmail.com (Bob Moseley) Received: from bmoseley by attmail; Wed Oct 20 10:46:50 GMT 1999 Phone: +441527498809 Fax-Phone: +441527498805 Subject: Luftmeister EFI for BMW Boxer twin Motorcycle To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Encoding-Type: ISO8859.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a "luftmiester" efi system which I bought s/hand at an autojumble. The ECU is stamped Haltech. I am not entirely sure it is complete. It has two sensors, one to a throttle body and one to a cylinder head. There are 4 three pin din type leads on the harness of which these two sensors are connected. What are the other two for? How can I test the ECU. Fortunately the wires for power supply, the fuel pump and earth etc are labled so that should be OK. Does anyone know of a Haltech supplier / distributor in the UK or have any practical knowledge of fitting such a system to BMW R100/7 boxer twin. All help gratefully received. Bob Moseley bmoseley@attmail.com Redditch Enlgland From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 20 09:42:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28677 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:42:40 -0400 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28674 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:42:38 -0400 Received: from [207.49.39.192] (w43.cmn.net [207.49.39.192]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA04064 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:36:05 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:44:46 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #591 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Currently my engine only consumes somewhere around 625 cfm max...I believe >that the BB TBI's flow 670 cfm so I too have thought about a BB TBI...Holley >makes a SB TBI manifold good for 6000 rpm as well...I'll have to check it's >height though? > Hi Doug-- Watch out for the flow on things like Holley Pro-Jection. 2 barrel carbs are rated for flow (in cfm) at 3 inches of Hg pressure drop. 4 barrel carbs are rated for flow at 1.5 in. Hg pressure drop--NOBODY seems to publish the pressure drop at which things like pro-jection are flow rated---BUT--I have talked to folks who have tried the pro-jection, and found, by experience--their engine does _ NOT _ flow nearly as well as with a 4 barrel of similar flow rating--that Holley must be rating the projection units at some (unknown) higher pressure drop!!! (Just for general info, the multiplier for comparing 2 barrel carbs to 4 barrels is .707. A 350 cfm rated 2 barrel only flows 247.5 cfm if rated using the same test conditions which are used for rating a 4 barrel!) Regards, Greg From diy_efi-owner Wed Oct 20 13:10:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:10:00 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01017 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:09:56 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ua074328 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:11:13 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991020133204.008e9094@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:32:04 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #590 In-Reply-To: <199910191900.PAA14488@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 15:00 19/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > >Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT >From: "Gary Moulton" >Subject: Manual control of IAC motor > >Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and >out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. >Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt >reversable dc motor? > >Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to >do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when >off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. >I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual >control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. >There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it >should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance I don't know about your system but the mini one IAC is a stepper motor. You need a driver to run it. The motors I have seen have a permanant magnet on the spindle then the driver powers coils to step the field round. I am supprised it doesn't have any feed back of where it is though. I suppose the ECU gets it to the right place by trial and error. Then resets it's self back to a postion where startup is good. There are loads of driver chips around cannot think of on off hand. There are 2 different sorts of motor too 4 and 6 wire ones... cannot remember what yours is called tho. HTH, Ade From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 02:19:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12095 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:19:15 -0400 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12092; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:19:14 -0400 Received: from ix.netcom.com (ali-ca54-46.ix.netcom.com [209.110.237.110]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA32060; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380EB014.C6F6CAB0@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:17:57 -0700 From: Doug Dayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bearbvd@cmn.net, Post DIY_EFI , Post DIY_EFI Digest Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #591 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:44:46 -0600 > From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #591 > > > > >Currently my engine only consumes somewhere around 625 cfm max...I believe > >that the BB TBI's flow 670 cfm so I too have thought about a BB TBI...Holley > >makes a SB TBI manifold good for 6000 rpm as well...I'll have to check it's > >height though? > > > Hi Doug-- > > Watch out for the flow on things like Holley Pro-Jection. 2 barrel carbs > are rated for flow (in cfm) at 3 inches of Hg pressure drop. 4 barrel carbs > are rated for flow at 1.5 in. Hg pressure drop--NOBODY seems to publish the > pressure drop at which things like pro-jection are flow rated---BUT--I have > talked to folks who have tried the pro-jection, and found, by > experience--their engine does _ NOT _ flow nearly as well as with a 4 > barrel of similar flow rating--that Holley must be rating the projection > units at some (unknown) higher pressure drop!!! > > (Just for general info, the multiplier for comparing 2 barrel carbs to 4 > barrels is .707. A 350 cfm rated 2 barrel only flows 247.5 cfm if rated > using the same test conditions which are used for rating a 4 barrel!) > > Regards, Greg Thanks Greg...I had completely forgotten that fact...quite right you are! I'll try Holley's Tech Support and report back... Doug From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 07:35:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14808 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:35:33 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14805; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:35:31 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-14.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.78]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24837; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 06:35:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 06:35:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199910211135.GAA24837@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #593 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Holley is not rating the CFM of it's TBI's by airflow, as strange as that might seem. They are using a comparitive rating of the injector size supplied to average jetting used per carb. I don't have the exact numbers here but like they have 3 TB's all with the same butterflies,, but rate them as 650 w/45 lb/hr injectors, 750 has 55's, and the 900 80-90's. All I can say with absolute certainty is that for me, a 355 224@.050 cam, 9.0:1 CR 3000lb car, with gears and converter luvs 2 (2") butterflies, and 2 90lb/hr injectors.. Grumpy >> >> Watch out for the flow on things like Holley Pro-Jection. 2 barrel carbs >> are rated for flow (in cfm) at 3 inches of Hg pressure drop. 4 barrel carbs >> are rated for flow at 1.5 in. Hg pressure drop--NOBODY seems to publish the >> pressure drop at which things like pro-jection are flow rated---BUT--I have >> talked to folks who have tried the pro-jection, and found, by >> experience--their engine does _ NOT _ flow nearly as well as with a 4 >> barrel of similar flow rating--that Holley must be rating the projection >> units at some (unknown) higher pressure drop!!! >> >> (Just for general info, the multiplier for comparing 2 barrel carbs to 4 >> barrels is .707. A 350 cfm rated 2 barrel only flows 247.5 cfm if rated >> using the same test conditions which are used for rating a 4 barrel!) >> >> Regards, Greg > >Thanks Greg...I had completely forgotten that fact...quite right you are! > From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 09:04:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16234 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:04:11 -0400 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16231 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:04:09 -0400 Received: from steve (207-172-209-132.s132.tnt1.nrf.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.209.132]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07488 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen R. Cauffiel" To: "EFI-DIY List" Subject: EPROM Programmer? Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:06:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey fellas, I own a 1988 Trans Am that I am dropping a 383 into. It has a 305 with TBI currently and I want to learn how to modify/burn my own chips in order to keep using the TBI setup. I think the TBI system could be made to support serious horsepower (using a 454 setup perhaps), I just need to learn more on this whole programming thing. Doing it on the cheap would be nice, too. I was looking on E-Bay for EPROM burners/programmers but I'm not sure what I need to be looking for. If anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it: type of burner, type of chips, books that I can get a real start in, etc.. A "Car Chips Computer Programming for Dummies" would be nice. I have been lurking on this list for quite a while, but a lot of it is still greek to me (even with a computer programming background) so any help would be appreciated! Steve "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~Albert Einstein~ From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 11:24:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18218 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:24:22 -0400 Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [209.57.253.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18215 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:24:21 -0400 Received: from gderian (dialcust-42.ts1.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.1.42]) by users.qual.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA23888 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <013501bf1bd8$52637980$2a01d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <199910210900.FAA13475@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #593 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:54:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The flow capacity of things like throttle bodies or carburetors cannot be considered a single number. The number is OK for comparison purposes but should not be thought of as some kind of limit. These things will flow more at a higher pressure drop, less at a lower one. A gasoline engine consumes close to 140 cfm for every 100 hp. A 400 hp engine therefore consumes 560 actual cfm. A device rated at 650 cfm at 1.5 in. Hg will have a pressure drop of (560/650)^2*1.5 or 1.1 in. Hg. If you want less restriction, a 750 rated device will have only 0.84 in. Hg pressure drop on a 400 hp engine. The flow ratings are merely a point on a curve. Gary Derian > > >Currently my engine only consumes somewhere around 625 cfm max...I believe > > >that the BB TBI's flow 670 cfm so I too have thought about a BB TBI...Holley > > >makes a SB TBI manifold good for 6000 rpm as well...I'll have to check it's > > >height though? From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 12:52:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA20310 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:52:18 -0400 Received: from trinity.spray.se (trinity.spray.se [212.78.194.44]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20305 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:52:13 -0400 Received: from JURG2KPRO (z5-2-20.sbbs2.net [212.112.2.20]) by trinity.spray.se (Postfix) with SMTP id B047B9F070 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:52:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: "DIY_EFI Mailinglist" Subject: Are Honda VTEC turbo Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:53:08 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A friend is installing a turbo in a Honda Civic with a B16A VTEC engine. I am going to build an additional injector controller for it. An aftermarket engine management system will be installed later on. I will try to trigger a multivibrator from the rising flank of stock injectors and I need to know if the engine uses sequencial injection or batch fire. I hope to save some time if any of you guys know this since I can't put my hands on the car until sunday. Should I expect large voltage peaks when the injectors close? Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 13:53:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21288 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:53:20 -0400 Received: from mail4.cadvision.com (mail4.cadvision.com [207.228.64.49]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21285 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:53:19 -0400 Received: from mani.hitech ([209.47.104.4]) by mail4.cadvision.com (8.9.3/8.9.1/CW) with SMTP id LAA18654 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:53:11 -0600 Message-ID: <00e901bf1bed$7f6cd060$04682fd1@hitech> From: "Al Jurenas" To: References: <199910201900.PAA03111@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #592 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:55:25 -0600 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | From what I can tell, the ECM (on a 90 GM) keeps track of the IAC position by remembering how many pulses it has sent out. This count shows up on a scanner. I believe the ECM reseats the IAC pindle (sends out multiple pulses to bring it all the way in or out) every time: (a) The battery power is removed and reapplied (b) you put the ECM in diagnostic mode by grounding at the ALDL connector, and (c) The car is driven at over 20 mph. By doing this, the ECM knows what position the IAC is, and recalibrates the IAC position by resetting the pulse count. | Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:32:04 +0100 | From: Ade + Lamb Chop | Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #590 | | At 15:00 19/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: | > | >Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:53:07 PDT | >From: "Gary Moulton" | >Subject: Manual control of IAC motor | > | >Can someone tell me which terminals of the IAC motor runs the pintle in and | >out? The wiring diagrams show two coils and the connector has 4 terminals. | >Does one coil send the position back to the ecm and the other is a 12 volt | >reversable dc motor? | > | >Application is 1994 Mopar 4.0L EFI in a 1982 Jeep CJ-7, and what I want to | >do is be able to manually adjust the idle lower than the 750-800 rpm when | >off-roading. I have connectors and a harness and some electrical experience. | >I plan to have a switch to disconnect the IAC from the system for manual | >control and a spring loaded switch to "bump" the IAC position in or out. | >There is a company offering such a controller for more money than I think it | >should cost to build one myself. Thanks in advance | | I don't know about your system but the mini one IAC is a stepper motor. You | need a driver to run it. The motors I have seen have a permanant magnet on | the spindle then the driver powers coils to step the field round. I am | supprised it doesn't have any feed back of where it is though. I suppose | the ECU gets it to the right place by trial and error. Then resets it's | self back to a postion where startup is good. | | There are loads of driver chips around cannot think of on off hand. There | are 2 different sorts of motor too 4 and 6 wire ones... cannot remember | what yours is called tho. | | HTH, | | Ade | | From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 14:04:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21477 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:04:56 -0400 Received: from mpd-server.mpd (mail1.meridian-mag.com [209.226.156.77]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21474; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:04:54 -0400 Received: by MPD-SERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <46D70Z54>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:58:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Rolica To: "Do It Yourself Efi (E-mail)" , "Gmecm (E-mail)" Subject: ecu files Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:58:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone worked on or are currently working on a ecu file for promedit/winbin for a 165 ecm?. Or an even better idea :-), does anyone out there have a ecu file already? Can I create a ecu file?, If I can, what do I need to know? (no smart donkey comments please :-).) Mike Rolica EXT. 260 :-) From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 14:18:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21759 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:18:08 -0400 Received: from always.friend.ly.net (IDENT:root@always.friend.ly.net [205.216.98.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21753 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:18:07 -0400 Received: from windows (ch-dyn0167.friend.ly.net [205.216.98.167]) by always.friend.ly.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29193 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:16:29 -0400 Message-ID: <003701bf1bf0$e39d48a0$a762d8cd@windows> From: "Bob Colvin" To: Subject: New Fuel System Plans Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:19:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF1BCF.4EF62E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF1BCF.4EF62E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF1BCF.4EF62E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.friend.ly.net= /GEET/plans.htm
 
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF1BCF.4EF62E40-- From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 15:40:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26041 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:40:15 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26033; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:40:13 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-9.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.73]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29046; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:40:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:40:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199910211940.OAA29046@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, "Do It Yourself Efi (E-mail)" , "Gmecm (E-mail)" From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: ecu files X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just curious, but have you been to the ecmguys URL, and gotten the 165 file?. Or are uoy saying your to the stage of wanting to have an editor for it?. Grumpy >Has anyone worked on or are currently working on a ecu file for >promedit/winbin for a 165 ecm?. Or an even better idea :-), does anyone out >there have a ecu file already? Can I create a ecu file?, If I can, what do >I need to know? (no smart donkey comments please :-).) >Mike Rolica >EXT. 260 > :-) > From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 15:45:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26242 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:45:26 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f274.hotmail.com [209.185.130.190]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26239 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:45:23 -0400 Received: (qmail 37789 invoked by uid 0); 21 Oct 1999 19:44:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19991021194446.37788.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.23.56.21 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:44:45 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.23.56.21] From: "Steve Leonard" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Reading ALDL output Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:44:45 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a '86 Buick GN. I would like to be able to read the ALDL data stream (ALA scanner) with my hand held PC. Anyone have any Ideas??? regards Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Oct 21 19:59:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00646 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:59:38 -0400 Received: from Prime-FE2.lvcablemodem.com (pop3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00642 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:59:37 -0400 Received: from pop3.lvcablemodem.com - 24.234.0.11 by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:07:10 -0700 Received: from itsmike (dhcp002.62.lvcm.com [24.234.62.2]) by pop3.lvcablemodem.com with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:07:10 -0700 From: "Mike" To: "dfi" Subject: Vortec injection Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know about the vortec injection on 95 454 chevys? Is it a multi port injection? Batch or sequential ? What i want it for is a big block project car is there any high performance potential for the injection? thanks Mike From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 07:08:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:08:38 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10253; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:08:37 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-11.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.75]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA15690; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 06:08:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 06:08:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199910221108.GAA15690@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #595 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Have you heard of Turbolink?. There is also another that reads off the PC itself. Both are discribed at the gn ttype home page. The 148 ya got is the 165 set-up, the archives are full os stuff related to that. Grumpy > >Subject: Reading ALDL output > >I have a '86 Buick GN. I would like to be able to read the ALDL data stream >(ALA scanner) with my hand held PC. Anyone have any Ideas??? >regards >Steve > From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 07:17:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10326 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:17:44 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10323 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:17:43 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:16:51 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.11] by grolen.com id 3a220.wrk; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:17:04 EDT Message-ID: <3810471E.ECC32F82@grolen.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:14:38 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Vortec injection References: <199910220900.FAA08902@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:03:09 -0700 > From: "Mike" > Subject: Vortec injection > > Does anyone know about the vortec injection on 95 454 chevys? Is it a multi > port injection? Batch or sequential ? What i want it for is a big block > project car is there any high performance potential for the injection? > > thanks > > Mike > I've worked with it a little in stock form. It's much better running than tbi, esp. at idle. But a lot of that may be in the cam, as I took a 96 engine and installed it in a carby app with much success. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 07:53:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10782 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:53:30 -0400 Received: from server.tac.com.au (server.tac.com.au [203.29.155.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA10775 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:53:23 -0400 Received: (qmail 6472 invoked by uid 904); 22 Oct 1999 11:53:14 +0000 Received: from 56.term2 (HELO leightur) (172.16.2.56) by server.tac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Oct 1999 11:53:14 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991022214218.006e9b54@tac.com.au> X-Sender: lee@tac.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:43:10 +1000 To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: leigh Subject: chev tpi swapping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu contact JEGS MAIL ORDER PART NO. 840-53 cost $14.95 chev tpi fuel injection swappers guide. it could help with retro fitting to your engines. phone 1.800.345.4545 leigh turner From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 08:15:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA11090 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:15:55 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11087 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:15:53 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id VHVFFQKP; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:16:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3810555A.272ECE3@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:15:22 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: buick ALDL References: <199910220900.FAA08902@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:44:45 PDT > From: "Steve Leonard" > Subject: Reading ALDL output > > I have a '86 Buick GN. I would like to be able to read the ALDL data stream > (ALA scanner) with my hand held PC. Anyone have any Ideas??? Steve, Ken Mosher has a program, cable kit that does exactly that... its worth the investment. -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 09:18:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12060 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:18:18 -0400 Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12056 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:18:17 -0400 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jMZLa02562 (4329) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.3ac6d8ce.2541bddf@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:17:19 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #595, reading aldl output To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yep, find Ken Mosher, he has a product called Turbo Link. Lots of features, very reasonable price, yada,yd..... Does anyone have the page that shows it's features? Mike V > ate: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:44:45 PDT > From: "Steve Leonard" > Subject: Reading ALDL output > > I have a '86 Buick GN. I would like to be able to read the ALDL data stream > (ALA scanner) with my hand held PC. Anyone have any Ideas??? > > regards > > Steve > From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 09:34:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12515 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:34:40 -0400 Received: from mail.fwi.com (qmailr@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.144]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12507 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:34:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199910221334.JAA12507@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 9426 invoked from network); 22 Oct 1999 13:40:12 -0000 Received: from decatur-line-21.fwi.com (HELO jhaines.fwi.com) (209.84.174.86) by mail.fwi.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 1999 13:40:12 -0000 X-Sender: jhaines@mail.fwi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:33:25 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Jason Haines Subject: 1996-1999 454 GM EFI In-Reply-To: <199910220900.FAA08902@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The 1996 - 1999 454 was multiport injection with a flash type PCM (also used on the 1996-1999 5.7L CK trucks). I am pretty sure the 1996-1999 system was sequential. The 1995 454 EFI was a throttle body injection system. Hope this helps, Jason >Does anyone know about the vortec injection on 95 454 chevys? Is it a multi >port injection? Batch or sequential ? What i want it for is a big block >project car is there any high performance potential for the injection? > >thanks > >Mike From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 09:53:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12951 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:53:58 -0400 Received: from head.hoser.com (IDENT:eclark@ns1.hoser.com [204.233.135.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12948 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:53:56 -0400 From: eclark@hoser.com Received: from localhost (eclark@localhost) by head.hoser.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23555 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:45:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:45:30 -0500 (CDT) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Vortec injection In-Reply-To: <199910220900.FAA08902@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:03:09 -0700 > From: "Mike" > Subject: Vortec injection > > Does anyone know about the vortec injection on 95 454 chevys? Is it a multi > port injection? Batch or sequential ? What i want it for is a big block > project car is there any high performance potential for the injection? > I dont know about any OEM parts but I know Arizona Speed and Marine makes a multi port manifold for big block chevy. -Eric From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 11:49:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16024 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:49:36 -0400 Received: from tomcat.sac.verio.net (root@tomcat.sac.verio.net [209.162.64.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16021 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:49:30 -0400 Received: from amedserver2.amed.com ([209.162.93.195]) by tomcat.sac.verio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA22768 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by AMEDSERVER2 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <4V223WSZ>; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: <017FAD770061D31189F400207813DDE5022D0C@AMEDSERVER2> From: Kelly McCrystle To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: AFM to Maf Conversion Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:46:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone made a "box" which would allow me to replace my AFM with a MAF sensor. Presently I have L-Jetronic injection and I am tired of having to replace my AFM on a regular basis. Kelly M From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 13:26:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA17572 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:26:51 -0400 Received: from mail.fwi.com (qmailr@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.144]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17565 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:26:49 -0400 Received: (qmail 956 invoked from network); 22 Oct 1999 17:32:23 -0000 Received: from decatur-line-40.fwi.com (HELO jhaines.fwi.com) (209.84.174.105) by mail.fwi.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 1999 17:32:23 -0000 Message-Id: X-Sender: jhaines@mail.fwi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:23:53 -0500 To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Jason Haines Subject: HEXWORKS improvements etc. Cc: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: <41CDB9BD7551D1118F9400A0C95A1E0A1AAEF7@SRV02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu How many people use HEXWORKS? I was talking with the guy that wrote HEXWORKS the other day and he asked if I new of any improvements that could be made to the program. If you have specific improvements, changes or additions you would like to see to the program - e-mail them to me and I will forward them to him. Please include if it is ok for him to contact you directly if he has questions about your ideas. For those that are not familiar with the program, HEXWORKS is a HEX editor that allows you to edit very large files. BTW - a new version of HEXWORKS should be out soon. They are in BETA testing now. Jason --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason R. Haines jhaines@lingenfelter.com Lingenfelter Performance Engineering 219-724-2552 / FAX 219-724-8761 1557 Winchester Road, Decatur, IN 46733 USA http://www.lingenfelter.com catalog, shop talk and more sales@lingenfelter.com sales and tech questions --------------------------------------------------------------------- From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 14:04:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18186 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:04:36 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.salestech.com (gatekeeper.salestech.com [198.153.1.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18182 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:04:35 -0400 Received: from [162.44.80.67] by gatekeeper.salestech.com for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id OAA13169; Fri Oct 22 14:02:15 1999 Received: from sti.imshealth.com (stlabl02.salestech.com [162.44.222.99]) by stiusatlcx1.salestech.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 42Y6GZ1A; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:02:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:57:35 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Multiport Injection setups and Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" From: Ned Williams Message-Id: <990922140215.OAA13169@gatekeeper.salestech.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Howdy everyone, I'm new to the list so please ecuse any mishaps on this post,my first. I am in the process of fabricating a multi Port fuel injection for Full Size Jeeps that are equipped with the AMC 360 or 401 engines. I have been in contact with several efi and dfi vendors,and currently have a metal fabrication discussion going on with one of the design engineers over at Holley. What I was wondering, was a while back on one of the little jeep(cj's and wranglers) websites someone coverted a amc straight 6 to EFI using a system off a chevy astro, the ECM was reprogrammed for him by someone off this list. So I am curious has anyone attempted such a ecm reprog on say a Ponitac ECM out of a 90 an up v8 based Firebird/TA or a 90 and up Camaro or Vette? At the current time I am thinking of using as much as I can from a 94 camaro I found junked, I would like to use the injectors,ecm and as much of harness as possible, based on intake spacing I already know I will need to fab my own fuel rails and mod an existing manifold. Due to the fact that I am on a limited budget been considereing using a stock jeep v8 intake, they are very basic spread bore designs with a single plane underneath. My current thought is to machine out the spread bores,leaving an open faced single plan manifold. For my air valve the Holley engineer suggested using an old quadra jet and removing the venturies, which is what he did on his own custom system. any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome thanks Ned From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 17:17:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:17:44 -0400 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21792 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:17:43 -0400 Received: from lizard (user-2iveae9.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.41.201]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17444 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910222117.RAA17444@smtp6.mindspring.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alex C. Peper" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:42:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #596 In-reply-to: <199910221900.PAA19129@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: AFM to Maf Conversion > > Has anyone made a "box" which would allow me to replace my AFM with > a MAF sensor. Presently I have L-Jetronic injection and I am tired of > having to replace my AFM on a regular basis. > > Kelly M > I made a L-Jet intercecpt box a few years ago for O2 sensor catalyst retrofit. I started to work on Ford MAF to L-jet box with list member. Alex From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 19:15:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23237 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:15:49 -0400 Received: from newaccess.hereintown.net (newaccess.hereintown.net [207.196.96.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23234 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:15:47 -0400 Received: from hereintown.net (MAX5-8.hereintown.net [207.196.96.215]) by newaccess.hereintown.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06471 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:16:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3810EED6.7822FE68@hereintown.net> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:10:14 -0400 From: David Brode X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: intro References: <199910221900.PAA19129@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all, This is an intro note. I'll be lurking to try to see if I can possibly learn enough to go with efi on my ongoing project. It's a twin turbo'd/N20 511 cubic inch pro street style '67 Chev pick up. I've looked at the archives and there seems to be talk here about turbos, intercoolers and such. I'm a layman [sheet metal worker] and know next to nothing about electronics. I know that efi would be much better than my blow through the carb plan. I hope to learn if it is doable with mostly junkyard parts. Thanks for the list. Dave Brode Frostburg Maryland From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 19:34:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23468 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:34:15 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23464 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:34:14 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:33:32 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.21] by grolen.com id 9c320.wrk; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:33:36 EDT Message-ID: <3810F3BC.A077A871@grolen.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:31:08 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , Steve Ravet Subject: Injector listing on ftp site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I've uploaded a very nice injector application/flow listing, complements of Jason D. (aka Spectro Coating Corp.). Although it's not complete, it has not got some of the errors that other www injector lists contain. If anyone has info to add or to complete the list, or general comments, please send it to Jason or myself. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/fuelflow.txt Shannen From diy_efi-owner Fri Oct 22 19:40:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23597 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:40:54 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23593 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:40:52 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:40:11 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.21] by grolen.com id 9d080.wrk; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:40:16 EDT Message-ID: <3810F54B.A4C800A6@grolen.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:37:47 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Multiport Injection setups and Design References: <199910221900.PAA19129@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:57:35 +0000 > From: Ned Williams > Subject: Multiport Injection setups and Design > > Howdy everyone, > > I'm new to the list so please ecuse any mishaps on this post,my > first. I am in the process of fabricating a multi Port fuel injection > for Full Size Jeeps that are equipped with the AMC 360 or 401 engines. I > have been in contact with several efi and dfi vendors,and currently have > a metal fabrication discussion going on with one of the design engineers > over at Holley. What I was wondering, was a while back on one of the > little jeep(cj's and wranglers) websites someone coverted a amc straight > 6 to EFI using a system off a chevy astro, the ECM was reprogrammed for > him by someone off this list. So I am curious has anyone attempted such > a ecm reprog on say a Ponitac ECM out of a 90 an up v8 based Firebird/TA > or a 90 and up Camaro or Vette? At the current time I am thinking of > using as much as I can from a 94 camaro I found junked, I would like to > use the injectors,ecm and as much of harness as possible, based on > intake spacing I already know I will need to fab my own fuel rails and > mod an existing manifold. Due to the fact that I am on a limited budget > been considereing using a stock jeep v8 intake, they are very basic > spread bore designs with a single plane underneath. My current thought > is to machine out the spread bores,leaving an open faced single plan > manifold. > For my air valve the Holley engineer suggested using an old quadra jet > and removing the venturies, which is what he did on his own custom > system. > > any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome Sure. For a port setup, you could use a 2bbl throttle body from a port fuel injected Cadillac, and a Holley 4bbl to GM TBI adapter. This will give you a nice start. The 90 Camaro tpi engine uses a 1227730 ecm, and there is tuning software available for it. There are injector sizing formulas and lists available in the archives, on the ftp site, and around the web. In fact, you should spend some time searching the archives for info, as there is a plethora of it available. One member has adapted a tbi setup to his jeep, along with an early pickup computer. This may be the simplest, fastest way to get a taste for efi swaps. Happy hunting. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ Shannen > > thanks > Ned > > ------------------------------ > From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 00:02:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA27111 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:02:17 -0400 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27108 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:02:16 -0400 Received: from steve (207-172-217-79.s270.tnt3.nrf.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.217.79]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA25075 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:06:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen R. Cauffiel" To: "EFI-DIY List" Subject: Converting a Performer manifold and TBI to TPI... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:03:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey guys, I think I remember a thread recently (here or on the Third gen list) about drilling an Edelbrock Performer manifold for TPI injectors and running a TBI with injectors removed as the throttle body... Am I smoking crack? I know that Edelbrock has their $2000 version of this, but if I could afford that... This would work with the TBI harness, wouldn't it? You would have to rewire it so that the left injector wiring fired the left bank of TPI injectors, and the right injector wiring the right bank... Has anyone done this? Would it work? If you could burn your own chips/reprogram the computer to compensate for changes... Would this work on a 383 SBC? Please, unless you are going to stroke me a check, don't say "Just buy the MiniRam/SuperRam/HighDollarRam and call it a day." If I could afford stuff like that I wouldn't even be asking this kind of question... Thanks for any help, Steve "It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." --Mark Twain From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 02:31:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA28038 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:31:29 -0400 Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28035 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:31:28 -0400 From: CApops@aol.com Received: from CApops@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jLQIa02562 (4263) for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.6d26ab7d.2542b000@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:30:24 EDT Subject: GM Fuel Injector Problems To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear efi, I saw a rather criptic message I think you had posted on http://www.lindertech.com/autolink.htm about problems with your GM fuel injectors. Do you know of any legal action anyone is taking to force them to have a recall on them? My car isn't out of warranty yet but, when my mechanic told me that GM thinks it's the fuel's problem I couldn't believe it. Why isn't every other car on the road having problems? He then said that they've come up with a cleaning procedure every 15000 miles to the tune of about $65. I'm not paying for an engineering mistake that they are not going to admit to. I'm an engineer who also works in the auto industry and this is exactly what it sounds like to me. Please let me know any more you've heard about this subject. Thanks a lot, -CApops@aol.com From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 08:18:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29920 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 08:18:34 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29917; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 08:18:32 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-11.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.75]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01779; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:18:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:18:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199910231218.HAA01779@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #597 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 98%of the injector problems, I've/friends/customers have had, usually were a problem with the fuel. The detergent packages vary greatly, and depending on what/where you use for fuel can be a critical issue. Generally, a major brand, busy station is best. The bargain brand stuff, can be quite old, and lost it's light end aromatics, buyer be ware. Some of the fuel companies are border line legal in what they pass off as fuel, more so then any problem I've seen with the injectors.. Just for grins, and using the proper saftey rules: Take 10 cc's, of the fuel your running and add 1cc, of water, shake, and let settle, If you wind up with more then 1cc of what looks to be water, then that is, the alky content of your fuel. I've seen upwards of 20%.. So what does that really say. The fuel company, is just passing off what ever they can as fuel.. I'd be very leery of the detergent package in that fuel. Like plugs left with a pinkish hue to em, change fuel brands. And for the non sense, about using no higher octane then neccessary, well if your ignoring engine life then fine.. Grumpy >------------------------------ >Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:30:24 EDT >From: CApops@aol.com >Subject: GM Fuel Injector Problems >Dear efi, >I saw a rather criptic message I think you had posted on >http://www.lindertech.com/autolink.htm about problems with your GM fuel >injectors. Do you know of any legal action anyone is taking to force them >to have a recall on them? >My car isn't out of warranty yet but, when my mechanic told me that GM thinks >it's the fuel's problem I couldn't believe it. Why isn't every other car on >the road having problems? He then said that they've come up with a cleaning >procedure every 15000 miles to the tune of about $65. I'm not paying for an >engineering mistake that they are not going to admit to. I'm an engineer who >also works in the auto industry and this is exactly what it sounds like to me. >Please let me know any more you've heard about this subject. >Thanks a lot, >- -CApops@aol.com >------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 10:57:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA30984 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:57:47 -0400 Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30981 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:57:46 -0400 Received: from v6v1j4 (qrvl209-74-47ppp117.epix.net [209.74.47.117]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with SMTP id KAA03919 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000801bf1d67$cd48cac0$752f4ad1@v6v1j4> From: "crash70" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #597 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:03:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I made a L-Jet intercecpt box a few years ago for O2 sensor catalyst >retrofit. I started to work on Ford MAF to L-jet box with list >member. >Alex Alex, (or other listers) Anyone made/interested in making an "intercept" box for Volkswagen Digifant VAF to MAF? (a Bosch MAF seems the most logical) Digifant seems to be decent system, with the exception of the ultra-restrictive VAF. TIA, Chris Bishop From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 23:25:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07128 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:25:55 -0400 Received: from leviathan-tu1.mtco.com (leviathan-tu1.mtco.com [208.155.33.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA07120 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:25:52 -0400 Received: (qmail 14402 invoked from network); 24 Oct 1999 03:28:17 -0000 Received: from tnt4-109.mtco.com (HELO mtco.com) (206.69.130.109) by leviathan-tu1.mtco.com with SMTP; 24 Oct 1999 03:28:17 -0000 Message-ID: <38127CB4.55DE9F12@mtco.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:27:48 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "efi332@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , EEC Subject: sound tach Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------48D98CA877ABBC49E29B1223" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu --------------48D98CA877ABBC49E29B1223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of you that remember the audio tach/HP tuner, here is a $35 suggestion!! TWS http://www.surplusauction.com/wc.dll?Lots~Info~91025A-PA191114&UID=TM0B --------------48D98CA877ABBC49E29B1223 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of you that remember the audio tach/HP tuner, here is a $35 suggestion!!  TWS

http://www.surplusauction.com/wc.dll?Lots~Info~91025A-PA191114&UID=TM0B
 
  --------------48D98CA877ABBC49E29B1223-- From diy_efi-owner Sat Oct 23 23:47:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07587 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:47:13 -0400 Received: from emerald.jvlnet.com (IDENT:root@emerald.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07545; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:44:09 -0400 Received: from lizard (mad-pm2-1-29.jvlnet.com [156.46.57.93]) by emerald.jvlnet.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08023; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:44:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:44:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199910240344.WAA08023@emerald.jvlnet.com> X-Sender: nacelp@jvlnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "efi332@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , EEC From: nacelp@jvlnet.com (CSH-HQ) Subject: Re: sound tach X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For those of us with e-mail only, how about a clue of what your talking about Grumpy >All of you that remember the audio tach/HP tuner, here is a $35 >suggestion!! TWS > >http://www.surplusauction.com/wc.dll?Lots~Info~91025A-PA191114&UID=TM0B > From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 09:13:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13951 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:08 -0400 Received: from ihemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [192.11.222.161]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13948 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:07 -0400 Received: from ihemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ihemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17700 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pace10.wh.lucent.com (h135-5-45-7.lucent.com [135.5.45.7]) by ihemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA17689 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pace10.wh.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.4.1 sol2) id JAA08606; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:02 -0400 Received: from lucent.com by pace10.wh.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.4.1 sol2) id JAA08598; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3813060B.196C12F7@lucent.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:13:47 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.4 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re:AMC EFI from 94 Camaro References: <199910221900.PAA19129@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ned, The 94 Camaro is an LT1 with The Opti-Spark distributor. This is a bad place to start your design. The 8051 PCM used in the 94 Camaro wants to see the Opti-Spark ignition. It would take a lot of work to use it with a normal distributor. I would start with a PCM off a GM car with a normal distributor. You could then just transplant the distributor electronics to you AMC. Ken > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:57:35 +0000 > From: Ned Williams > Subject: Multiport Injection setups and Design > > Howdy everyone, > > I'm new to the list so please ecuse any mishaps on this post,my > first. I am in the process of fabricating a multi Port fuel injection > for Full Size Jeeps that are equipped with the AMC 360 or 401 engines. I > have been in contact with several efi and dfi vendors,and currently have > a metal fabrication discussion going on with one of the design engineers > over at Holley. What I was wondering, was a while back on one of the > little jeep(cj's and wranglers) websites someone coverted a amc straight > 6 to EFI using a system off a chevy astro, the ECM was reprogrammed for > him by someone off this list. So I am curious has anyone attempted such > a ecm reprog on say a Ponitac ECM out of a 90 an up v8 based Firebird/TA > or a 90 and up Camaro or Vette? At the current time I am thinking of > using as much as I can from a 94 camaro I found junked, I would like to > use the injectors,ecm and as much of harness as possible, based on > intake spacing I already know I will need to fab my own fuel rails and > mod an existing manifold. Due to the fact that I am on a limited budget > been considereing using a stock jeep v8 intake, they are very basic > spread bore designs with a single plane underneath. My current thought > is to machine out the spread bores,leaving an open faced single plan > manifold. > For my air valve the Holley engineer suggested using an old quadra jet > and removing the venturies, which is what he did on his own custom > system. > > any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome > > thanks > Ned From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 12:57:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16061 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:57:52 -0400 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA16050; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:57:48 -0400 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id LAA22903; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:57:47 -0500 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma022901; Sun, 24 Oct 99 11:57:22 -0500 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07748; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:57:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <381339E8.478C9623@arm.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:55:04 -0500 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi , "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Any 700r4 experts out there? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone out there live in the Austin area, and have experience inside GM automatic transmissions? 700r4/4l60 specifically? I'm considering tackling my first rebuild and I'd like to have access to someone who's been there. This is obviously way off topic so please reply privately to me at the address in my signature, rather than to the list. thanks, --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 14:17:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA17091 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:17:50 -0400 Received: from Prime-FE1.lvcablemodem.com (pop3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17088 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:17:49 -0400 Received: from pop3.lvcablemodem.com - 24.234.0.9 by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:23:18 -0700 Received: from itsmike (dhcp002.62.lvcm.com [24.234.62.2]) by pop3.lvcablemodem.com with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:23:18 -0700 From: "Mike" To: "dfi" Subject: FW: Maf sensors Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:21:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Is it possible to use a lt1 or ls1 MAF sensor with a 88 tpi ECM's? It would seem like a good upgrade if it possible. Mike From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 16:40:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18593 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:40:12 -0400 Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18590 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:40:11 -0400 From: Bard382@aol.com Received: from Bard382@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jWRITg0U__ (4259) for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.bb4f56c1.2544c888@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:39:36 EDT Subject: Ford 57 TBird EFI To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Folks, I am new to this list and am looking for some ideas. I am currently trying to convert my 57 Tbird 312 Y-Block to EFI using Ford EEC IV MAF system from the Mustang 5.0L. I am in the beginning stages of designing a lower intake to accept injectors and mate to the Ford GT40 upper intake. Any manifold makers out there? Mark From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 16:52:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18843 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:52:43 -0400 Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18840 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:52:42 -0400 From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Received: from EFISYSTEMS@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jPZA0w08r6 (4332) for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.4a285297.2544cb7a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:52:10 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #600 MAF sensors To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I am working on that very thing, but it will take me a while to get the transfer function (grams per second vs. voltage)from the early MAF sensor. I have it for the ls1(grams per second vs. frequency) If someone knows someone at Bosch or already has this info, please email me. Thanks -Carl Summers In a message dated 10/24/99 12:21:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:21:18 -0700 From: "Mike" Subject: FW: Maf sensors Is it possible to use a lt1 or ls1 MAF sensor with a 88 tpi ECM's? It would seem like a good upgrade if it possible. Mike >> From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 19:05:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:05:36 -0400 Received: from smtp.thegrid.net (smtp.thegrid.net [209.162.1.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21382 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:05:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 2815 invoked from network); 24 Oct 1999 23:05:33 -0000 Received: from pop.thegrid.net (209.162.1.5) by smtp.thegrid.net with SMTP; 24 Oct 1999 23:05:33 -0000 Received: from quantex (lax-ts5-h2-47-83.ispmodems.net [209.162.47.83]) by pop.thegrid.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA04636; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:05:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Al Lipper" To: , "EFI" Subject: ECU6 plans and software Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:23:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <199910241822.MAA27490@taz.info2000.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The software for ECU6 is all in the ECU6 ZIP file at http://www.thegrid.net/lipper/efi/index.htm If you (or anyone) is interested in building ECU6, I have one blank PC board for it left (which I will sell for $38 + shipping). I also have one extra 87C51GB CPU (which I'll sell for $20). If anyone who has built an ECU6 is interested, I can ZIP the compiled software for you to experiment with. Good luck. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: cwagner@info2000.net [mailto:cwagner@info2000.net] > Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 11:16 AM > To: efi@cardozo.org > Subject: efi > > > I would like to try and build this ECU 6 system but I don't know > where to start. Also, I don't have any of the programs to work with > the board designs and I don't know how to use the programs. > From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 19:39:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21915 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:39:15 -0400 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21910 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:39:14 -0400 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:38:10 -0400 Received: from [216.64.100.14] by grolen.com id 9cd40.wrk; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:38:42 EDT Message-ID: <381397E7.78C02DDF@grolen.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:36:07 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Bin on FTP site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I've placed ARJT7489.bin on the FTP site. It's for a 1991 1/2 ton, 4X4, 350 w/ 700R4 Shannen From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 22:17:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA26600 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:17:54 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc2.mi.home.com (ha1.rdc2.mi.home.com [24.2.68.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26596 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:17:53 -0400 Received: from c464161a ([24.10.59.189]) by mail.rdc2.mi.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991025021747.HJQV11466.mail.rdc2.mi.home.com@c464161a> for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:17:47 -0700 Message-ID: <012801bf1e8f$b8243340$bd3b0a18@roalok1.mi.home.com> From: "Matt Beaubien" To: References: <199910241900.PAA17428@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: DIY rev limiter Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:21:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, I have a friend who's trying to get a spec RX7 series running back home, and would like to have a "spec" rev limiter in the interest of reliability. I'm not fully up on the ignition system but there are two distributors (with points), along with a set of leading and trailing plugs. My thought is to kill spark to one set of plugs (vs all of them) to prevent nasty back-fires, while hopefully cutting power. Is there a relatively easy way of doing this? Could a 555 be used to monitor engine speed and then just ground one set of points? Any help would be appreciated. Matt Beaubien From diy_efi-owner Sun Oct 24 22:43:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA27173 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:43:13 -0400 Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27170 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:43:11 -0400 Received: from pft101.rh.psu.edu (216-164-252-108.s362.tnt5.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.252.108]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id WAA20662 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991024224723.006b97c0@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: pxtx@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:47:23 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Paul Tholey Subject: GM Northstar/ (NOARCH SBC LT1 stuff for sale)/ LT1 730 controlled? In-Reply-To: <199910230900.FAA28865@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The more EFI related content is towards the end. If anyone is annoyed by fluffy stuff scroll down or hit the delete key now. It was only a matter of time. I bought an 87 Mitsubishi Starion about 2.5 ears ago. I knew the head was junk at 68,000 miles but I figured I would just put a SBC in and have fun. Well, I ran across an Olds Aurora 4.0 and thought that might be the ticket. Now the price of the crank (which is why I got it) is over $1000. I can buy a used Northstar 4.6 for $300. Not a bad deal, it just has 2 stripped head bolts. If the block is salvageable, I can just use the Olds starter and other stuff, BUT if it ain't does anyone here know if the cranks will interchange? I know they have a different part number, but they do have the same stroke. I was just wondering if anyone here knew for sure. Now I spent the weekend at my local U-Pull-It. I grabbed some Quad4 stuff for comparison. The fuel rail and injectors line right up. The cool 'tuned header' looking intake lines up, even the bolt holes, but the port tapers down too much for it to simply bolt up to the Northstar. I think I am going to figure out away to put these cool intakes on my buddies Northstar project. In time I will be able to do the physical comparison between my Aurora stuff and his Northstar, but not anytime soon. TOPIC CHANGE I am seeing a bunch of talk on SBC stuff. If it is helpful, I have a bunch of cop car LT1 stuff for sale. I am not an expert on LT1 vs traditional SBC fit, but a deal is a deal. I have a 1996 LT1 for sale for $600; it has everything except the alt, A/C compressor, and electric air pump. The motor has a slight rod knock, I head it run, and the mileage is 71,XXX. I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia, PA. I have a bunch of other LT1 motors that are hurt. Bad blocks, rods, cranks etc. If anyone could use stuff like the injection systems (intake, TB, injectors fuel rail, MAP sensor), iron LT1/Vortec heads, roller lifters and cams, let me know. I am just throwing out stuff off the top of my head. I think the heads and intake together are worth $200. Does anyone even know how much of the LT1 stuff can be easily adapted to a traditional SBC? EFI CONTENT (Finally) I do not currently have a PCM for the LT1 stuff. I was thinking about using a 730 ecm. The only thing I see as an obstacle is the distributor. I know the LT1 sees something like 360 pulses per 360 degree rotation, while the 730 ecm can only read (again, I am going off the top of my head) like 12 pulses per 360 degree rotation. I will have to check my notes on that. I am sorry for the ramblings, but I hope I am not the only one who will benefit from this discussion. Best regards, Paul Tholey From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 01:51:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA31385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 01:51:17 -0400 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA31341; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 01:48:13 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14515; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id WAA02422; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910250548.WAA02422@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: ADMIN: Spam rules To: efi332@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (EFI332), diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (DIY EFI List), gmecm@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:48:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu List rules for spam are to IGNORE IT. The list admins will take care of abuse reports etc.. Please do not waste bandwidth replying to it or complaining to the list. Orin, list admin. From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 02:15:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA31851 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 02:15:57 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA31848 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 02:15:55 -0400 Received: from mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk by mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id xa074669 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:16:52 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991023195001.008e9f18@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:50:01 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Why do you want to convert to Injection? In-Reply-To: <199910230900.FAA28865@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Info: E-Mail lookup : http://mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, Since I have been on this list I have seen a fair amount of people Converting to Efi of some variant or other. Personally I am here to learn about Efi so I don't have to pay some rover dealer large amounts of money when (not if, we are talking about Rover remember) my Fiancee's Mpi Rover Mini Cooper stops working properly. I understand that for the ultimate control over ignition and fuel electronics is the way to go but surely for a road car even if you are going for as much power as you can get is it really worth all that hassle? Surely you cannot gain more than a few Hp or mpg even the emmisions gains cannot be that great can they? So come on guys what important detail have I missed? Personally I don't think I will be converting my mini from a nice SU carb and distributor ignition (electronic points) Unless somebody convices me otherwise. Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 10:57:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05778 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:57:25 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f302.hotmail.com [209.185.130.91]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05772 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:57:23 -0400 Received: (qmail 7159 invoked by uid 0); 25 Oct 1999 14:56:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19991025145652.7158.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.246.130.80 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:56:52 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.246.130.80] From: "David Sagers" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Converting a Performer manifold and TBI to TPI... Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:56:52 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve I was trying to do the same thing a while back, the injectors in the Edelbrock TBI to multiport conversion, according to an Edelbrock tech, use a very small voltage or (ohm? can't remember the difference right now) so that the TBI computer which is made to drive two injectors can drive eight injectors without frying the computer or the injectors. I seem to remember that the injectors are smaller in diameter than stock units so they won't fit in a factory GM EFI manifolds. Currently the injectors come in two sizes, about 20 lbs per hr and the larger 29 lbs per hour. Edelbrock says the they successfully run a 502 BBC with the big injectors. The conversion kit includes a card that requires you to give them a lot of info about your engine, cam exhaust, etc... so they can provide the right chip. That is if you engine is stock or pretty close, otherwise they will direct you to someone to make the chip for a bigger cam or what ever you have that is outside of what they will sell over the counter. Liability, emissions and all those other concerns prevent them from selling chips that work with modified engines. If you are really good at drilling you can make jig to hold your manifold and drill it for injectors, then either weld or epoxy in the bungs to hold the injectors. Force Fuel Injection http://force-efi.com/ sells these or you can pay to have Force make the conversion for you, about $600. One thing to consider is that if you are going to use a solid fuel rail all of you injectors must be at the same angle and at the same height. If you look at the runners on a Performer, or any other dual plane intake, intake you'll notice that runners next to the head are various heights. Consider a Edelbrock Torquer intake as all the runners next to the head are about the same height. Even though the Torquer is a mid range RPM intake, the EFI will really tame it down and you'll have some very strong low end power and throttle response. About a year ago I read an article in a 4 wheel magazine that described using a Torquer converted to EFI on a rock crawling jeep. The bottom end power was very strong as the EFI does not depend on air flow to draw the fuel out of the carb. If you use the Performer, consider making your ow fuel rails/lines out of some high pressure fuel line. Another option is something I saw in the PAW catalog. I think it was a Weiand intake that is made to be converted to EFI. It has the pads and the fuel rail towers cast in and would save you a bunch of time and money. You'd still need to drill and weld the injector bungs. Cost is about $250 from PAW. Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:03:51 -0400 From: "Stephen R. Cauffiel" Subject: Converting a Performer manifold and TBI to TPI... Hey guys, I think I remember a thread recently (here or on the Third gen list) about drilling an Edelbrock Performer manifold for TPI injectors and running a TBI with injectors removed as the throttle body... Am I smoking crack? I know that Edelbrock has their $2000 version of this, but if I could afford that... This would work with the TBI harness, wouldn't it? You would have to rewire it so that the left injector wiring fired the left bank of TPI injectors, and the right injector wiring the right bank... Has anyone done this? Would it work? If you could burn your own chips/reprogram the computer to compensate for changes... Would this work on a 383 SBC? Please, unless you are going to stroke me a check, don't say "Just buy the MiniRam/SuperRam/HighDollarRam and call it a day." If I could afford stuff like that I wouldn't even be asking this kind of question... Thanks for any help, Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 12:37:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08405 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:37:52 -0400 Received: from benatar.snurgle.org (IDENT:fluffy@c266492-a.lakwod1.co.home.com [24.1.8.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08402 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:37:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (fluffy@localhost) by benatar.snurgle.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07454 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:37:26 -0400 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:37:26 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #601 In-Reply-To: <199910250900.FAA00433@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > I have a friend who's trying to get a spec RX7 series running back > home, and would like to have a "spec" rev limiter in the interest of It is difficult to build an ignition based rev limiter for an RX-7 because of the dual ignition system. > reliability. I'm not fully up on the ignition system but there are > two distributors (with points), along with a set of leading and There should be only one distributor on an RX-7. Earlier Mazda cars had two, but the RX-7 should have one that has two sets of points in it. > trailing plugs. My thought is to kill spark to one set of plugs (vs > all of them) to prevent nasty back-fires, while hopefully cutting > power. Backfires (actually afterburn - fire in the exhaust) is okay. Especially in a racing series. Scare your opponents, amaze your friends. The bad news is that either ignition is enough on its own to ignite the fuel and allow you to overrev the engine. You have to cut both ignition systems. Anyway, why do you need a rev limiter? The redline on the RX-7 is only there to give some color to the tachometer. I have overrevved my 1st generation RX-7 all the way to 8500 RPM without damage. (don't make a habit of that. :} ) From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 16:47:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13185 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:47:32 -0400 Received: from server.tac.com.au (server.tac.com.au [203.29.155.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13182 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:47:29 -0400 Received: (qmail 13299 invoked by uid 904); 25 Oct 1999 20:47:24 +0000 Received: from 81.term2 (HELO leightur) (172.16.2.81) by server.tac.com.au with SMTP; 25 Oct 1999 20:47:24 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991026063413.006fc5fc@tac.com.au> X-Sender: lee@tac.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:36:45 +1000 To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: leigh Subject: chev tpi swapping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu contact JEGS MAIL ORDER PART NO. 840-53 cost $14.95 chev tpi fuel injection swappers guide. it could help with retro fitting to your engines. phone 1.800.345.4545 leigh turner From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 17:40:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14054 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:40:07 -0400 Received: from prod1.erols.com (fbreitwieser.erols.com [216.164.100.213]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14050 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:40:04 -0400 Received: from xephic.dynip.com (DESKTOP1 [172.16.0.19]) by prod1.erols.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id VHVFFTR8; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:40:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3814CE1A.F3991705@xephic.dynip.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:39:38 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: EFI conversions on an intake References: <199910251900.PAA10467@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > with injectors removed as the throttle body... Am I smoking crack? Nope. > Has anyone done this? Would it work? If you could burn your own > chips/reprogram the computer to compensate for changes... Would this work > on a 383 SBC? Drilling and milling an intake is much easier than I thought, you can see my mopar equivilent at http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/383intake.htm. There is nothing stopping you from doing this to almost any intake at all. I found aluminum to be easier to machine with a drill press. As far as programming, depending on the injector drivers in the ECM, you might be able to just rewire, and use smaller injectors. Lets say your TBI has two injectors in the throttle body throat - 80lbs each at 45psi. If you go the TPI route, meaning one injector per cylinder, you would take 160lbs (80lbs @ 2 injectors) and divide by eight, and get 20lb injectors. One per cylinder. If the injector drivers of the ECM you have can support the additional load of the injectors wired in parallel, you'd be okay. You might have to figure out if the TBI system fires both injectors at the same time, or alternates them, I've seen it done both ways both OEM and aftermarket, but the theory is four injectors go to the wires for the left TBI injector, and the remaining 4 injectors go to the right TBI injector. Then, its a matter of figuring which injectors to wire to which side, based on firing order (firing before the valve opens is a good thing!). Something like that. Or, you can use a junkyard ECM from say, a camaro, firebird, monte carlo, and use a chip editing software available on DIYEFI and make your own program. A lot of us are doing that. The pictures I linked above show my converted intake, which will be managed by a bank-firing SYTY ECM (1227749 I think). Good luck. From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 18:34:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14969 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:34:27 -0400 Received: from ram1.powereng.com (IDENT:root@ram.powereng.com [207.108.234.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14966 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:34:25 -0400 Received: from haileymx.powereng.com (haileymx.powereng.com [192.251.22.15]) by ram1.powereng.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14946 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:34:24 -0600 Received: by haileymx.powereng.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <47VWC5MG>; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:35:27 -0600 Message-ID: <532786626CCBD211A61000902727E4923271BA@haileymx.powereng.com> From: Tom McAuliffe 3392 To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: brainbox for a 97 5.8L Ford Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:35:19 -0600 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <532786626CCBD211A61000902727E4923271BA@haileymx.powereng.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BF1F39.3BDDDE3A" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF1F39.3BDDDE3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I recently bought and am going to install a '97 Ford 5.8L SFI engine in my '68 Bronco. The engine came just with what's on the engine itself, no computer, ignition module, fuel pump relay, etc. Does anyone out there have a computer that would do the trick or can tell me where I can lay my hands on one? Thanks. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF1F39.3BDDDE3A Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcKABkAEAAjABMAAQBAAQEggAMADgAAAM8HCgAZ ABAAIwAaAAEARwEBCYABACEAAAAwRjU1N0ZGNzIwOEJEMzExQTY3MTAwOTAyNzIzMEVCNgDyBgEE gAEAHAAAAGJyYWluYm94IGZvciBhIDk3IDUuOEwgRm9yZAB/CAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGAFQH AAAxAAAAAwABgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAPATAAAeAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjUACwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUAAAAAAAADAASA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAA AAAACwAGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAAQhQAAAAAAAAMACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAJgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAAqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAA HgALgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4ADIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAALAA2ACyAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAAiAAAAAAAAAsA DoALIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAWIAAAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAB/AQAAewEAALABAABMWkZ17hhM iQMACgByY3BnMTI1FjIA+Atgbg4QMDMznQH3IAKkA+MCAGNoCsBgc2V0MCAHEwKAfRkKgXVjAFAL A3VsbkUCIGULpiBJIAlwYyEJ8HRseSAG4HVnFmgFQABwZBTAbSBngm8LgGcgdG8gC4AKcwGQbAMg YSAnORg3IEYFsBTwNS44WkwGAEYTsAnwZwuAZQkVwSBtFEAnNjggCkIDYG4FoC4gIFQ2aBfgF5Vj FRAX4Gp1ZRXwIAPwdGgacBEAdH4nBCACIBWQGUgakBEwbDhmLCAS4BnQA3BwdSZ0BJAcgGlnAwB0 adcbQQRhEsBlHIBmClADIG8dABzwE8ELYHkcgBFAY9kZAURvB5EAcHkS8Rsw1x0QG2IJcCARAHYX 4BZQXxzWG2Ea8BpwCGBsFPBkyxWwG3J0BRBjaxswBcD/GeAbURxQAyAaARrQIRITsH8kAh9BGCIR ABTgGyMS8T/jGRIAcGtzLgqiCoAR8QIAJ/AAHgBwAAEAAAAcAAAAYnJhaW5ib3ggZm9yIGEgOTcg NS44TCBGb3JkAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG/HzkQWK4GvhmKtBHTmt8AYAi3vrcAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2 AAAAAAALAAIAAQAAAAMA3j+vbwAAQAA5AHDBpTc5H78BAwDxPwkEAAAeADFAAQAAAAsAAABUTUNB VUxJRkZFAAADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAACwAAAFRNQ0FVTElGRkUAAAMAGUAAAAAAAwD9P+QEAAAD AIAQ/////wIBRwABAAAAOgAAAGM9VVM7YT0gO3A9UE9XRVIgRW5naW5lZXJzO2w9SEFJTEVZTVgt OTkxMDI1MjIzNTE5Wi0zMzc1MgAAAAIB+T8BAAAAWgAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAA AAAAAAAvTz1QT1dFUiBFTkdJTkVFUlMvT1U9UE9XRVJIQUlMRVkvQ049UkVDSVBJRU5UUy9DTj1U TUNBVUxJRkZFAAAAHgD4PwEAAAATAAAAVG9tIE1jQXVsaWZmZSAzMzkyAAAeADhAAQAAAAsAAABU TUNBVUxJRkZFAAACAfs/AQAAAFoAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089UE9X RVIgRU5HSU5FRVJTL09VPVBPV0VSSEFJTEVZL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049VE1DQVVMSUZGRQAA AB4A+j8BAAAAEwAAAFRvbSBNY0F1bGlmZmUgMzM5MgAAHgA5QAEAAAALAAAAVE1DQVVMSUZGRQAA QAAHMJbDczc5H78BQAAIMDre3Ts5H78BHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AHQ4BAAAAHAAAAGJyYWlu Ym94IGZvciBhIDk3IDUuOEwgRm9yZAAeADUQAQAAAD8AAAA8NTMyNzg2NjI2Q0NCRDIxMUE2MTAw MDkwMjcyN0U0OTIzMjcxQkFAaGFpbGV5bXgucG93ZXJlbmcuY29tPgAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAA AAMABhD7wG4zAwAHEPQAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASVJFQ0VOVExZQk9V R0hUQU5EQU1HT0lOR1RPSU5TVEFMTEE5N0ZPUkQ1OExTRklFTkdJTkVJTk1ZNjhCUk9OQ09USEVF TkdJTkVDQU1FSlVTVFdJVEhXSEFUU09OVEhFRU5HSQAAAAACAX8AAQAAAD8AAAA8NTMyNzg2NjI2 Q0NCRDIxMUE2MTAwMDkwMjcyN0U0OTIzMjcxQkFAaGFpbGV5bXgucG93ZXJlbmcuY29tPgAAwms= ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF1F39.3BDDDE3A-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 20:20:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA18453 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:20:01 -0400 Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18444 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:19:59 -0400 Received: from clarityconnect.com (209.150.253.166) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0a10); Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:19:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3814F3EA.6F70A97D@clarityconnect.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:20:58 -0400 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, EFISYSTEMS@aol.com Subject: Re: MAF transfer function References: <199910250900.FAA00433@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: EFISYSTEMS@aol.com > I am working on that very thing, but it will take me a while to get > the transfer function (grams per second vs. voltage)from the early MAF > sensor. With DIACOM, that is pretty easy to get. Just hook up the ECM on a bench, give it lots of ref pulses for high RPM (for no max flow limiting), then feed the MAF input with the output of a 10 turn pot wiper that has the ends hooked to the +5V ref and ground. Slowly increase the voltage to the MAF input and DIACOM with report the Airflow for the input voltage. I did this once, but I don't remember where I put the data.... :-) It is here someplace, in some notebook. > I have it for the ls1(grams per second vs. frequency) If someone > knows someone at Bosch or already has this info, please email me. Scot Sealander From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 21:40:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21034 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:56 -0400 Received: from hoemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (hoemail1.lucent.com [192.11.226.161]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21030 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:54 -0400 Received: from hoemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hoemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26219 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pace10.wh.lucent.com (h135-5-45-7.lucent.com [135.5.45.7]) by hoemlsrv.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA26206 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pace10.wh.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.4.1 sol2) id VAA17011; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:51 -0400 Received: from lucent.com by pace10.wh.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.4.1 sol2) id VAA17007; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:40:49 -0400 Message-ID: <381506D0.E402BB00@lucent.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:41:36 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.4 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #601 References: <199910250900.FAA00433@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Paul, Don't know much about northstar/aurora, but I can answer some of your LT1 questions. 1) very little interchanges between the earlier SBC and LT1. The Block, heads, and intake don't interchange. 2) The LT1 block has provisions for a normal distributor The only thing that is missing is the whole and clamp in the intake manifold. If you use an old style computer, I would try to adapt an HEI distributor. Gm sells a carburator style intake manifold for use with the LT1 crate engine. It allows the use of an HEI distributor. 3) If you do want to try to play with the LT1 PCM I have found all the tables in the 94-95 PCM. Ken > > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:47:23 -0400 > From: Paul Tholey > Subject: GM Northstar/ (NOARCH SBC LT1 stuff for sale)/ LT1 730 controlled? > > > TOPIC CHANGE > > I am seeing a bunch of talk on SBC stuff. If it is helpful, I have a bunch > of cop car LT1 stuff for sale. I am not an expert on LT1 vs traditional > SBC fit, but a deal is a deal. > > I have a 1996 LT1 for sale for $600; it has everything except the alt, A/C > compressor, and electric air pump. The motor has a slight rod knock, I > head it run, and the mileage is 71,XXX. I live in the suburbs of > Philadelphia, PA. > > I have a bunch of other LT1 motors that are hurt. Bad blocks, rods, cranks > etc. If anyone could use stuff like the injection systems (intake, TB, > injectors fuel rail, MAP sensor), iron LT1/Vortec heads, roller lifters and > cams, let me know. I am just throwing out stuff off the top of my head. I > think the heads and intake together are worth $200. > > Does anyone even know how much of the LT1 stuff can be easily adapted to a > traditional SBC? > > EFI CONTENT (Finally) > > I do not currently have a PCM for the LT1 stuff. I was thinking about > using a 730 ecm. The only thing I see as an obstacle is the distributor. > I know the LT1 sees something like 360 pulses per 360 degree rotation, > while the 730 ecm can only read (again, I am going off the top of my head) > like 12 pulses per 360 degree rotation. I will have to check my notes on > that. > > I am sorry for the ramblings, but I hope I am not the only one who will > benefit from this discussion. > > Best regards, > > Paul Tholey From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 22:03:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21381 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:03:19 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21378 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:03:18 -0400 Received: from CR929909A ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <19991026020130.UBJ29247.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@CR929909A> for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:01:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bf1f56$5e2450b0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: References: <199910251900.PAA10467@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Intake&exhaust tuning Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:03:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not strictly EFI, but since I wish to inject this little fellow and need to fet the tuning soeted out first, it is EFI related. On a 4 cyl opposed engine with siamesed intake and exhaust (Soob EA81) what is involved in calculating the best intake runner lengths and exhaust tube size, length, and crossover. The exhaust opens 60 bbdc and closes 20 abdc Intake opens 20btdc and closes 60 atdc. Need max HP at about 4800 RPM. Now for the fly in the ointment. The firing order is such that the 2 siamesed cyls fire sequentially, and banks alternately, so each exhaust sees pop - pop - hush - hush, and each intake sees suck - suck - rest - rest. What is the best approach to tuning this system? From diy_efi-owner Mon Oct 25 23:20:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22575 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:20:15 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc2.mi.home.com (ha1.rdc2.mi.home.com [24.2.68.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22572 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:20:14 -0400 Received: from c464161a ([24.10.59.189]) by mail.rdc2.mi.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991026032007.SCTH11466.mail.rdc2.mi.home.com@c464161a> for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:20:07 -0700 Message-ID: <008701bf1f61$96f21700$bd3b0a18@roalok1.mi.home.com> From: "Matt Beaubien" To: References: <199910251900.PAA10467@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY rev limiter Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:24:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu William, > It is difficult to build an ignition based rev limiter for an RX-7 because > of the dual ignition system. There's nothing quite like a good challenge ;-). > There should be only one distributor on an RX-7. Earlier Mazda cars had > two, but the RX-7 should have one that has two sets of points in it. Fair enough. I was just going by what my friend had said. So is there a dual prong rotor that fires one set of plugs, rotates a bit, and then fires the second pair? > Backfires (actually afterburn - fire in the exhaust) is okay. Especially > in a racing series. Scare your opponents, amaze your friends. What about blowing exhaust systems off? > The bad news is that either ignition is enough on its own to ignite the > fuel and allow you to overrev the engine. You have to cut both ignition > systems. Anyway, why do you need a rev limiter? The redline on the RX-7 > is only there to give some color to the tachometer. I have overrevved my > 1st generation RX-7 all the way to 8500 RPM without damage. (don't make a > habit of that. :} ) Wouldn't it loose a fair bit of power with only one set firing? My friend said that people were revving the cars too much and reliability was becoming a factor. Buzzing your street occasionally to 8500 RPM may be ok but when it's done lap after lap for extended periods of time, things fail. The goal is to keep the cost down (ie. relatively stock, used engines) and failures just deter people. Also, these cars will be run on frozen lakes in the near future. Even with studs, traction can be lost quite easily which spins the engine to the moon. If both points need to be cut, so be it. It'd be nice if it was gentler than that so maybe every other revolution could be interrupted? Nonetheless, does anyone have any ideas/suggestions. Thanks. Matt Beaubien From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 26 01:49:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24038 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:49:10 -0400 Received: from alpha1.obuda.kando.hu (alpha1.obuda.kando.hu [193.224.41.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24035 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:49:08 -0400 Received: from novserv.obuda.kando.hu ([193.224.41.2]) by alpha1.obuda.kando.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 11fzUD-0003IN-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:49:34 +0200 Received: from NOVSERV/SpoolDir by novserv.obuda.kando.hu (Mercury 1.44); 26 Oct 99 07:46:28 MET DST Received: from SpoolDir by NOVSERV (Mercury 1.44); 26 Oct 99 07:46:04 MET DST From: "Kapocs Attila" Organization: Kando Kalman Polytechnic To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:46:02 +0100 Subject: Intel 8061 pinout for EEC-IV In-reply-to: <199910251900.PAA10467@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Message-Id: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear Members, I would like to know the pinout for the Intel 8061 microcontroller used in Ford EEC-IV ECUs. Intel refused to give me any information regarding this component (this is only for Ford). So if you can help, please send me some information. Sincerely Attila Kapocs From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 26 08:44:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28610 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:44:08 -0400 Received: from cg_web_ii.cgmarketing.com (pop.cgmarketing.com [207.218.7.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28605 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:44:03 -0400 Received: from SMTP (unverified [207.218.7.130]) by cg_web_ii.cgmarketing.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 05:43:29 -0700 Received: from cg_net_iib.cg_nt ([207.218.7.7]) by 207.218.7.130 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:43:28 0000 (GMT) Received: from cg_xchg.CG_ACX (unverified [172.25.18.2]) by cg_net_iib.cg_nt (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:25:59 -0700 Received: by CG_XCHG with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:36:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: lmaggi - Larry Maggio To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Source for SES or Check engine light Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:36:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Im looking for a decent check engine light.... something a little more aesthetically pleasing than your basic radio shack bulb. Any ideas? Thanks, Larry From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 26 09:50:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29941 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:50:43 -0400 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29937 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:50:41 -0400 Received: from accessworldnet.com (dialup-154.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.154]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12046 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:50:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3815B1FC.1D2DA6A@accessworldnet.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:51:57 -0700 From: Laura & Neil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 References: <199910251900.PAA10467@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:56:52 PDT > From: "David Sagers" > Subject: Converting a Performer manifold and TBI to TPI... > > Steve > > > If you are really good at drilling you can make jig to hold your manifold > and drill it for injectors, then either weld or epoxy in the bungs to hold > the injectors. Force Fuel Injection http://force-efi.com/ sells these or > you can pay to have Force make the conversion for you, about $600. One > thing to consider is that if you are going to use a solid fuel rail all of > you injectors must be at the same angle and at the same height. If you look > at the runners on a Performer, or any other dual plane intake, intake you'll > notice that runners next to the head are various heights. Consider a > Edelbrock Torquer intake as all the runners next to the head are about the > same height. Even though the Torquer is a mid range RPM intake, the EFI > will really tame it down and you'll have some very strong low end power and > throttle response. About a year ago I read an article in a 4 wheel magazine > that described using a Torquer converted to EFI on a rock crawling jeep. > The bottom end power was very strong as the EFI does not depend on air flow > to draw the fuel out of the carb. If you use the Performer, consider making > your ow fuel rails/lines out of some high pressure fuel line. Another > option is something I saw in the PAW catalog. I think it was a Weiand > intake that is made to be converted to EFI. It has the pads and the fuel > rail towers cast in and would save you a bunch of time and money. You'd > still need to drill and weld the injector bungs. Cost is about $250 from > PAW. > I had to think about this for a minute. If you are converting a performer manifold designed to work wet, with a carb, to dry PFI, will it still have the same torque characteristics?. Neil From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 26 09:56:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA30173 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:56:00 -0400 Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA30166 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:55:54 -0400 From: Bard382@aol.com Received: from Bard382@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id jDMI0jXj80 (4465) for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.ce3a6d16.25470cc7@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:55:19 EDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #603 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For the 97 5.8L try the Ford Motorsports catalogue, they have a kit for street rods that may be what you want. Mark From diy_efi-owner Tue Oct 26 10:49:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA31924 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:49:59 -0400 Received: from voyager.c-com.net (voyager.c-com.net [209.127.0.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31921; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:49:57 -0400 Received: from todd-s (dial21.as3.c-com.net [209.127.53.79]) by voyager.c-com.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA03868; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:49:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3815DE58.816@c-com.net> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:01:12 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu CC: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: TBI, TPI, Radical Engines, (Todd) References: <0.eac06027.2546283e@aol.com> <3814F9DF.4EB0@c-com.net> <38150CB8.4DF9BDCE@xephic.dynip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Have a question that may be a bit tangent to the main topic goal of this list but here goes anywho... Anyone know the TENSILE, SHEAR, and COMPRESSION strength of an average forged connecting rod? Say for a big block? This is for a twin turbo B.B. EFI project.... for calculating the limit of torque application to the rod, rod cap, and rod bolts before failure... Piston strength specs are already acquired. Cyl wall strength (thickness and material makeup) is last on the list to calc out. Will be using minimum strength spec, of course, to be safe rather than sorry when it comes down to the nitty gritty(REAL LIFE HAMMER TIME)... Thnx for any input!! Sincerely!, Todd.... P.S. - FRED B., what caused your T.T. EFI B.B. Mopar B block(Stroker 400 - 4.34? bore X 3.75 stroke) to expire? I don't remember the specifics? Was it just a lean condition causing critical predetonation leading to holes in the pistons or cracked rings? or did ya actually throw(i.e. break!?) a forged Mopar connecting rod? or what? Just awonderin..... ----------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Todd and others interested in long rambling messages :) > > Well, you said "Money is the issue here", which I'd take to mean "not to > expensive". It all depends on what you consider expensive, and do you > factor in your time to make it work. > > Before I go through all this, I will say that its CHEAPER and FASTER to > skip EFI and run your engine (at least as we discussed it) with a > turbo'd predator carb, or a suitable well-adjusted Holley, etc. Out of > the box you produce power, its easy(er) to fabricate parts, and a > screwdriver can adjust things to make it run right. > > If you are dead set on EFI, you might consider the Holley or Edelbrock > TBI system upon your own manifold, because mechanicall