From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 1 10:21:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28700 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:21:50 -0500 Received: from mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com [24.221.30.31]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28697 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:21:48 -0500 Received: from hp5700ct (hybrid-024-221-018-005.phoenix.speedchoice.com [24.221.18.5]) by mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (8.9.3/) with SMTP id IAA05205; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:21:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <003a01bf5475$2b5598c0$0512dd18@phoenix.speedchoice.com> From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" To: , "EEC Mailing List" , "DIY_EFI Digest" Cc: "Wallace A. Gustafson" Subject: Happy New Year -- 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:27:59 -0800 Organization: Cobra Racing & Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Happy New Year!!! Hope everyone survived Y2K!!! If anyone needs help, please feel free to contact me. Wallace A. Gustafson -- a.k.a. "Cobra" Cobra Racing & Engineering From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 1 15:05:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA30805 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:05:30 -0500 Received: (from jsg@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA27958 for diy_efi; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 06:10:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 06:10:02 -0500 From: jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: <200001011110.GAA27958@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ now mirrored at http://tech.buffalostate.edu/efi Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 09:19:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07645 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:19:41 -0500 Received: from mail.rdc1.il.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07642 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:19:39 -0500 Received: from c30704-a ([24.4.166.186]) by mail.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000102141939.QYK2850.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@c30704-a> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 06:19:39 -0800 Message-ID: <003701bf552c$906dcc20$0400a8c0@c30704-a.iowact1.ia.home.com> From: "Robert Eickhorst" To: Subject: EGOR Alive? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:20:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have been rummaging thru the archives and found a lot of messages about the UEGO sensor. Apparently Garfield was making available an interface design(EGOR). The last message I seem to find is from May of 1999. Anybody know what happened? Bob Eickhorst rleickho@home.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 13:31:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09910 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:31:39 -0500 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09907 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:31:38 -0500 From: Bja1078@aol.com Received: from Bja1078@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.0.e434f26c (7878) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:29:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.e434f26c.25a0f322@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:29:54 EST Subject: 730/727 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 54 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, I'm going to start on a project of tpi on a v8. I've decided to use a 730/ 727 ecm on a modifid in take, I thinking about a victor jr. or something of that nature. Anyway my question is this can I trigger the ecm directly from a hall effect, I don't wan't and spark control. And two what uses the 727 is that the vett?? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also what vehicles is any gm that use a 28 lbs/hr injector that should be what I need to feed my motor, by the math anyway! Thanks -Brian From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 18:47:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13469 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:47:57 -0500 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13466 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:47:56 -0500 Received: from 1Cust214.tnt1.olympia.wa.da.uu.net - 63.14.148.214 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:47:27 -0800 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: EGOR Alive? Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 15:51:53 -0800 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <3872e1da.192973765@smtp.email.msn.com> References: <200001022000.PAA10617@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <200001022000.PAA10617@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id SAA13467 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:20:47 -0600 "Robert Eickhorst" >I have been rummaging thru the archives and found a lot of messages about >the UEGO sensor. Apparently Garfield was making available an interface >design(EGOR). The last message I seem to find is from May of 1999. Anybody >know what happened? >Bob Eickhorst >rleickho@home.com Well, alas, we were hoping to make the announcement around Christmas time (there must have been something later than May, tho), but our last step of calibrations using "primary standard" gases was delayed, because the special-order gases arrived late, and some oddball valves they supplied on the bottles had to be adapted. Please stand by, and you'll hear all about it here on DIY just as soon as we have completed this last step. Real soon now. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 19:54:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14408 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:54:50 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14405 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:54:49 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas5-cs-23.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.229]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e030slm29443 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:54:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006901bf5586$0d3ad000$e50ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <0.e434f26c.25a0f322@aol.com> Subject: Re: 730/727 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:01:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Persoannally I would use the timing ability of the gm ecm. It is just so much more tunable. Use a late dissy with remote coil and your all set. Buick ttypes.gn used injectors can be had cheap and they are 28s. Close at 30 are the syclone, and can used ones can be bought cheap. I've gotten several sets of them both for $50 for 6, which leaves a couple spares. |Anyway my question is this can I trigger the ecm directly | from a hall effect, I don't wan't and spark control. And two what uses the | 727 is that the vett?? 92 engine code T, R, 91 8, D, R, 90 8, V, T, R, 89 V. S, 88 W (thou can be 730) (best info I have, but may have errors) Grumpy The 730 is a more widely used part. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also what vehicles | is any gm that use a 28 lbs/hr injector that should be what I need to feed my | motor, by the math anyway! | | Thanks | -Brian | From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 22:51:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15675 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:51:16 -0500 Received: from taz.info2000.net (IDENT:root@mail.info2000.net [204.144.228.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15672; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:51:15 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net Received: from george ([206.168.206.10]) by taz.info2000.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23698; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:50:39 -0700 Message-Id: <200001030350.UAA23698@taz.info2000.net> To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:48:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 730/727 In-reply-to: <5119429.946855687301.JavaMail.imail@swirly> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a similar question. I plan on using the 730 on a project of mine but would like to use the stock distributor. The dis has a hall setup without any advance. How would I go about making it work with the computer so it runs the spark timming. I was thinking about using some transistors for switching . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 01:17:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA17886 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:17:12 -0500 Received: from ar.ar.com.au (root@ar.ar.com.au [203.18.148.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17875; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:17:05 -0500 Received: from kojab (dialup144.ar.com.au [203.18.148.144]) by ar.ar.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/AR-1.1) with SMTP id RAA19933; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:15:20 +1100 Message-ID: <38703EDA.198D@ar.com.au> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:16:58 +1100 From: Andrew Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Nissan Pulsar Exa 195 ECU Pinouts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Gang, I'm converting my Nissan Pulsar Exa 1984, to the Delco system, and I'm unsure about some of the pinouts of the old Nissan ECU. Here's what I've got so far. If you can fill any in, or guide me somewhere, that would be great. I'm a bit stuck concerning the Fuel Pump Relay. Nissan Exa Pulsar 1984 Nissan 195 ECU Pinouts 1 N/C 2 GREY/BLUE 3 RED/WHITE 4 N/C 5 BLACK/BLUE 6 N/C 7 N/C 8 GREEN/YELLOW (DISTRIBUTOR) 9 BLACK/YELLOW 10 N/C 11 BROWN 12 N/C 13 N/C 14 N/C 15 N/C 16 N/C 17 GREEN/BLACK (DISTRIBUTOR) 18 GREEN/YELLOW 19 N/C 20 N/C 21 WHITE (DETONATION SENSOR) 22 BLUE/YELLOW 23 YELLOW/GREEN (COOLANT SENSOR) 24 N/C 25 GREEN/YELLOW 26 BLACK (AFM EARTH) (COOLANT SENSOR EARTH) 27 BLUE (12V POSITIVE) 28 BLACK (GROUND/EARTH) 29 WHITE/BLUE 30 YELLOW/GREEN (AFM) 31 YELLOW/RED (AFM) 32 N/C 33 YELLOW/BLUE (AFM) 34 N/C 35 BLUE (12V POSITIVE) 36 BLACK (GROUND/EARTH) 101 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE) 102 INJECTOR DRIVER (YELLOW) 103 N/C 104 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE/RED) 105 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE/BLUE) 106 N/C 107 INJECTOR GROUND 108 AIR REGULATOR (BLUE/RED) 109 INJECTOR GROUND 110 YELLOW/BLUE 111 N/C 112 INJECTOR GROUND 113 INJECTOR GROUND 114 N/C 115 N/C Cheers, Andrew Wakeling From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 13:25:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26156 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:25:53 -0500 Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26091; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:23:57 -0500 From: PHXSYS@aol.com Received: from PHXSYS@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.0.88ee4c86 (3956); Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:23:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.88ee4c86.25a24317@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:23:19 EST Subject: Wanted M68HC11EVB- Evaluation Board To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, efi332@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi I was wondering if anyone has a Motorola M68HC11EVB they would like to sell? Please contact me off list Thanks Jon From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 18:13:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA31675 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:13:00 -0500 Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA31672 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:12:58 -0500 Received: from nicos ([210.55.86.78]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000103231225.NOUR50393.mta4-rme@nicos> for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:12:25 +1300 Message-ID: <002c01bf54ae$1a183520$4e5637d2@nicos> From: "Nicholas Parker" To: Subject: ECU's Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:14:47 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List, =20 Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = dumps the contents ? Nick. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi List,  
Is = there an ECU=20 out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = cyl=20 sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = thing is=20 availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = ECU.
The=20 current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = question but=20 does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = had to=20 try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = various=20 lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = for=20 dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = code=20 (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = having=20 previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = FFh) a=20 loop that dumps the contents ?
 
Nick.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 04:40:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA07491 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:57 -0500 Received: from showboat.teradyne.com (showboat.teradyne.com [198.51.251.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07488 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:55 -0500 Received: from chorus.teradyne.com (chorus.teradyne.com [131.101.1.195]) by showboat.teradyne.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11072 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from notes.teradyne.com (jaypeak.corp.teradyne.com [131.101.17.23]) by chorus.teradyne.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.7.1) with SMTP id EAA16840 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by notes.teradyne.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 8525685C.00354E70 ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:42:14 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: TERADYNE From: "Roderick Warner" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <8525685C.00354D61.00@notes.teradyne.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:36:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and ideally some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if there is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the process of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very rich running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by hand) it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do change over the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto the pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? Rod Warner From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 08:43:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA09603 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:43:26 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09600; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:43:24 -0500 Received: from hpanlhc.an.hp.com (hpanlhc0.an.hp.com [15.63.115.100]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1429AA7; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 05:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from agilent.com (hpantfr.an.hp.com [15.55.104.118]) by hpanlhc.an.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3 TIS Messaging 5.0) id IAA17403; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:43:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3871F8F8.E3BE4338@agilent.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:43:21 -0500 From: Dave Hempstead Organization: Agilent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? So many questions, so few answers, Any help will be appreciated, Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@agilent.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 08:52:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA09796 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:52:08 -0500 Received: from firewall.ceco.com (firewall-user@firewall.ceco.com [198.29.253.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09789 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:52:02 -0500 From: Don.F.Broadus@ucm.com Received: by firewall.ceco.com; id HAA19812; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:52:01 -0600 Received: from cccntcon52.ceco.com(130.197.125.205) by firewall.ceco.com via smap (V4.2) id xma019312; Tue, 4 Jan 00 07:51:42 -0600 Received: by cccntcon52.ceco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:51:40 -0600 Message-ID: <6D07A7DEF8E8D21182700080D8701070391C64@cccntxch51.ceco.com> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:51:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus twin cam book and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a direct copy. My $.02 Don > -----Original Message----- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:00 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > > > DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number > 001 > > > > In this issue: > > ECU's > Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:14:47 +1300 > From: "Nicholas Parker" > Subject: ECU's > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi List, =20 > Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = > 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. > I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = > injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. > The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = > and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = > to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. > I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = > are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = > chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = > then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = > into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = > dumps the contents ? > > Nick. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Hi List,  
Is = > there an ECU=20 > out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 > Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = > cyl=20 > sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = > thing is=20 > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = > ECU.
The=20 > current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 > so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = > question but=20 > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = > had to=20 > try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = > various=20 > lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = > for=20 > dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = > code=20 > (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = > having=20 > previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = > FFh) a=20 > loop that dumps the contents ?
>
 
>
Nick.
> > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:36:41 +0000 > From: "Roderick Warner" > Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and > ideally > some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in > question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if > there > is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the > process > of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very > rich > running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by > hand) > it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do > change over > the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto > the > pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? > > Rod Warner > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > *************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 10:21:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11096 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:21:35 -0500 Received: from horizon.hit.net (rah@horizon.hit.net [206.252.160.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11093; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:21:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (rah@localhost) by horizon.hit.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18629; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:21:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:21:32 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin To: "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" cc: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question In-Reply-To: <3871F8F8.E3BE4338@agilent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > It has to know what gear it is in. The computer also runs the skip shift hardware. You might check the A4 code you have and see if you can find the skip shift code. It basically checks to see if you are in 1st gear and below a certain speed, and then activates some hardware to force a shift to 4th. The code on the 93 is around EDB0 and D24B, if there is similar code in the A4 bin you have then it is very likely that that bin with a few minor data changes is also used on a M6. From everything I can tell the 93 uses the same "code" but slightly different data. The "CARS" part is the CAGS or skip shift stuff. Roger From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 12:16:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13659 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:16:29 -0500 Received: from the.hoser.com ([204.233.135.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13656; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:16:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (eclark@localhost) by the.hoser.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29837; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:16:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:16:25 -0600 (CST) From: Eric Clark To: "gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" cc: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question In-Reply-To: <3871F8F8.E3BE4338@agilent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Andrew Mattei's webpage has both the A4 and M6 stream spec. Here is the M6 spec. http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eamattei/a273.doc On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > > So many questions, so few answers, > Any help will be appreciated, > Dave Hempstead > dave_hempstead@agilent.com > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 14:11:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15487 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:11:03 -0500 Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15478; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:10:46 -0500 From: PHXSYS@aol.com Received: from PHXSYS@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.0.95d1c70c (4557); Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:10:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.95d1c70c.25a39f95@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:10:13 EST Subject: How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi I have some older E6's that use the 68HC811E2 micro. I was wondering if there is a way to see the addresses where the dos software loads setup parameters and fuel/spark maps in the 2K on chip eeprom. I was thinking of making a simple vb program to download custom setup to eeprom. I need to know what info goes to what eeprom address. Does anyone know how I can do this? Thanks Jon From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 15:27:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16936 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:27:01 -0500 Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16931; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:27:00 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 125aXj-00034u-00; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:26:59 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 12:28:33 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 04 Jan 2000 12:26:49 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:27:36 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C79A@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number 002 In this issue: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:43:21 -0500 From: Dave Hempstead Subject: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Hi, Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? So many questions, so few answers, Any help will be appreciated, Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@agilent.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:51:32 -0600 From: Don.F.Broadus@ucm.com Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus twin cam book and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a direct copy. My $.02 Don > -----Original Message----- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:00 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > > > DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number > 001 > > > > In this issue: > > ECU's > Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:14:47 +1300 > From: "Nicholas Parker" > Subject: ECU's > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi List, =20 > Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = > 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. > I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = > injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. > The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = > and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = > to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. > I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = > are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = > chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = > then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = > into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = > dumps the contents ? > > Nick. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Hi List,  
Is = > there an ECU=20 > out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 > Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = > cyl=20 > sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = > thing is=20 > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = > ECU.
The=20 > current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 > so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = > question but=20 > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = > had to=20 > try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = > various=20 > lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = > for=20 > dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = > code=20 > (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = > having=20 > previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = > FFh) a=20 > loop that dumps the contents ?
>
 
>
Nick.
> > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:36:41 +0000 > From: "Roderick Warner" > Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and > ideally > some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in > question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if > there > is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the > process > of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very > rich > running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by > hand) > it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do > change over > the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto > the > pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? > > Rod Warner > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > *************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:21:32 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > It has to know what gear it is in. The computer also runs the skip shift hardware. You might check the A4 code you have and see if you can find the skip shift code. It basically checks to see if you are in 1st gear and below a certain speed, and then activates some hardware to force a shift to 4th. The code on the 93 is around EDB0 and D24B, if there is similar code in the A4 bin you have then it is very likely that that bin with a few minor data changes is also used on a M6. From everything I can tell the 93 uses the same "code" but slightly different data. The "CARS" part is the CAGS or skip shift stuff. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:16:25 -0600 (CST) From: Eric Clark Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Andrew Mattei's webpage has both the A4 and M6 stream spec. Here is the M6 spec. http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eamattei/a273.doc On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > > So many questions, so few answers, > Any help will be appreciated, > Dave Hempstead > dave_hempstead@agilent.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:10:13 EST From: PHXSYS@aol.com Subject: How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? Hi I have some older E6's that use the 68HC811E2 micro. I was wondering if there is a way to see the addresses where the dos software loads setup parameters and fuel/spark maps in the 2K on chip eeprom. I was thinking of making a simple vb program to download custom setup to eeprom. I need to know what info goes to what eeprom address. Does anyone know how I can do this? Thanks Jon ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 16:10:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17748 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:10:03 -0500 Received: from node9.cwnet.frontiernet.net (node9.frontiernet.net [209.130.129.194]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17745; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:10:02 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by node9.cwnet.frontiernet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA21826; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:10:00 -0500 Received: from proxy.gblx.net(209.130.170.10), claiming to be "ntmnburnjlh883" via SMTP by node9.frontiernet.net, id smtpdcD3.7a; Tue Jan 4 16:09:53 2000 From: "James Hall Internet" To: , Subject: remove Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:09:53 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001042000.PAA16229@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu remove From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 22:10:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23530 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:40 -0500 Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23527 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:39 -0500 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.0.c0342061 (7065) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.c0342061.25a41008@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:00 EST Subject: Question on a '88 ALDL To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Searched though the archives and found some stuff on ALDL communicating with a PC (i.e., RS232 schematics, data reading programs). I've got it to work (somewhat) but I'm only seeing FC or 00 (hex numbers). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking at an '88 GMC with a 350 TBI. Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 04:00:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA28567 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 04:00:50 -0500 Received: from relay3-gui.server.ntli.net (relay3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.4.200]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA28564 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 04:00:48 -0500 Received: from p62-nsv1-cardiff4.tch.dtn.ntl.com ([212.250.68.62] helo=richm) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 125mD6-0000a5-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:54:28 +0000 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: 1600 MR2 trivia Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:57:04 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001042000.PAA16229@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Lotus did development work for the Toyota 4A-GE motor (1.6 MR2), hence the similarity... Why mess with something that works so well?? Rich. > A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus > twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has > any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus > twin cam book > and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a > direct copy. My > $.02 > From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 09:55:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA32208 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:58 -0500 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32204 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:57 -0500 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:52:57 -0500 Received: from [216.64.100.11] by grolen.com id 4ef11.wrk; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:34 EDT Message-ID: <38735A1D.9EFEC78@grolen.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:50:05 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info References: <200001051000.FAA28953@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:07 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 > > Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: > > does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? > > thanks, Ted > Hi, Ted. Glad you're back. Ever go any farther with the DIS/749 swap? I might have a 7747, I'll have to check. Is this something you need right away? Shannen From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 19:02:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA09812 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:20 -0500 Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09808 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:18 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay4.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 1260Nd-0005ZV-00; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:17 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) with SMTP; 5 Jan 2000 16:03:50 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:02:03 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:02:52 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C7B8@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:59:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, thanks, no nothing I'm in urgent need of. I went from the Chevy 2.3 tbi system to a bosch jettronic-lh from a Volvo 240dl. I machined the Volvo distributor down to fit in my mgb, and used the Volvo ignition computer/harness. I never permanently did much with the rest, though I mounted all of the parts/sensors, return fuel line, etc, due to the overall crummy intake design of the mgb. either the manifolds I constructed were too long for the mgb engine bay, (uh duh use a tape measure first), or there was some issue. I would like to find a method to 'add' 2 injectors to an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. I don't see much around for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. I'd rather not have a fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. what happened to the normal way of sending/getting emails from this list ? I miss reading them a lot. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, January 5 2000 Volume 05 : Number 004 In this issue: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:50:05 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:07 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 > > Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: > > does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? > > thanks, Ted > Hi, Ted. Glad you're back. Ever go any farther with the DIS/749 swap? I might have a 7747, I'll have to check. Is this something you need right away? Shannen ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 08:06:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17742 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:06:14 -0500 Received: from web901.mail.yahoo.com (web901.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.76]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA17739 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:06:12 -0500 Received: (qmail 16595 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2000 13:06:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20000106130612.16594.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2000 05:06:12 PST Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head mating surface as possible. The holes will be 'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube and into the intake port on the opposite side. The exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep from wetting the walls. One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is the characterization of spray patterns for different injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, and impedance. The archive article on building an injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray patterns, but I have not seen any info that would allow you to determine what pattern an injector has from it's part number or application. Surely that information is available somewhere? Just my .02, good luck with your project! Carter Shore ..... > there was some issue. I would like to find a method > to 'add' 2 injectors to > an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. > I don't see much around > for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. > I'd rather not have a > fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. > > the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 15:57:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25833 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:57:36 -0500 Received: from relay6.smtp.psi.net (relay6.smtp.psi.net [38.9.30.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25830 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:57:34 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay6.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 126JyN-0001yJ-00; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:57:32 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay6.smtp.psi.net [38.9.30.2]) with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 12:59:02 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:57:12 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:58:04 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C7C2@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:58:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a more do-able idea. I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. I did find someone who had a bolt-on tbi 'carb' that replaced the strombert CD, but they wanted 500+ for it, which is too high for me. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 6 2000 Volume 05 : Number 006 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head mating surface as possible. The holes will be 'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube and into the intake port on the opposite side. The exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep from wetting the walls. One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is the characterization of spray patterns for different injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, and impedance. The archive article on building an injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray patterns, but I have not seen any info that would allow you to determine what pattern an injector has from it's part number or application. Surely that information is available somewhere? Just my .02, good luck with your project! Carter Shore ..... > there was some issue. I would like to find a method > to 'add' 2 injectors to > an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. > I don't see much around > for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. > I'd rather not have a > fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. > > the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 16:39:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26862 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:15 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26859 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:14 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-24.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.128]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e06LdCh16855 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01bd01bf588f$67fa7ca0$3a0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C7C2@sea-mail> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:45:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ya'all, just might be over thinking this. Unless your doing a true SEFI, your gonna be just spraying fuel around the manifold anyway. Ya, be nice to get fuel in about the right area, but, I don't think your ever going to see a real difference in what your looking at. Might even be better using a TBI setup since you have more injector firings to atomize the fuel and get it splashing around better (). Grumpy Doc even agrees.. | the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. | I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to | aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the | back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty | unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would | be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 | larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a | more do-able idea. | From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 21:04:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA32095 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:04:04 -0500 Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32092 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:04:03 -0500 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (reports.everyone.net [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E2D1972 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 60001) id A9883B09E; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:03:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:03:57 -0800 (PST) From: dennis To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: injector mounting Message-Id: <20000107020358.A9883B09E@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You guys might want to take a close look at the injector setup on this page, as far as fuel supply is concerned. A cool site in-general. Not many MG's though. http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/phaseI.htm dennis >I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my >Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on >the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very >shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head >mating surface as possible. The holes will be >'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each >injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube >and into the intake port on the opposite side. The >exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of >the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the >manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have >an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit >thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I >can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush >with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting >boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for >the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires >fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of >using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center >hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with >aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. > >When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount >the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. >Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep >from wetting the walls. > >One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is >the characterization of spray patterns for different >injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, >and impedance. The archive article on building an >injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray >patterns, but I have not seen any info that would >allow you to determine what pattern an injector has >from it's part number or application. > >Surely that information is available somewhere? > >Just my .02, good luck with your project! > >Carter Shore > >..... >> there was some issue. I would like to find a method >> to 'add' 2 injectors to >> an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. >> I don't see much around >> for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. >> I'd rather not have a >> fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. >> >> the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. >> _____________________________________________________________ Win a Sony AIBO at... http://www.everyone.net Make Your Site Stronger(TM) From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 21:30:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA32333 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:30:57 -0500 Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32329 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:30:55 -0500 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (reports.everyone.net [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0D91C2A99 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 3B88E50AB; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:30:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:30:49 -0800 (PST) From: dennis To: "diyefi diyefi" Subject: 99 Dakota ECM Message-Id: <20000107023050.3B88E50AB@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello. I have a '99 Dodge Dakota. I was wondering what is involved in getting myself setup to modify the fuel/ignition maps in the ecm. I am sort-of dumb about this part of automotive tuning but experienced with most others. Feel free to talk down to me technically, I would prefer that to technical terms I have never heard of. Automotive wise I know my stuff, but with processors and electronic hardware I don't know much. I want to figure out a way to do this. I know it can be done, as is evidenced by the Hypertech Power Programmer that they make for my truck. I want something adjustable or I would just buy one of these. I will be making some drastic changes in volumetric efficiency. Would this require an emulator? Hope someone can help me out, thanks in advance. dennis _____________________________________________________________ AutoSpeed - The World's Best High Performance Online Magazine http://www.autospeed.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 02:58:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05480 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:58:34 -0500 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05477 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:58:32 -0500 From: peter.betts@nokia.com Received: from mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com (mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com [131.228.118.60]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/o) with ESMTP id JAA03185 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:58:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh03nok.ntc.nokia.com (esebh03nok.ntc.nokia.com [131.228.118.244]) by mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04115 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:58:29 +0200 (EET) Received: by esebh03nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:58:26 +0200 Message-ID: To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 'MAP' and Fueling Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:58:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I'm new to the group and have a few (probably) simple questions. (Sorry it's a long Email) What is the relationship between MAP and MAF. RPM and Air Temp are factors in converting the MAP sensor output to match the MAF. What I am trying to do is understand what the differences between MAP and MAF are. I have a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo and they come with both MAF and MAP sensor systems for the export and Japanese spec cars. These cars have a fuel cut which operates as soon as the manifold pressure exceeds a preset limit of 13psi. I have designed a voltage hold circuit which clamps the output of the sensor at 13psi (about 4.3V) and hence fools the ECU of the car into thinking it is running much lower boost from the turbos. The problem is that I am unsure if this will affect the fueling charateristcis of the car if I have modified the MAP input the ECU, above the 13psi limit. I may be having fueling problems but am unsure what I may have done. Thanks for the reply from Ric Rainbolt regarding the issue. I have faithfully added his Email below. *****P.Betts*********** The US Surpa site say modifying the MAP sensor output with a fuel cut controller is a bad idea for the Jap spec MAP sensor cars but I agree with Rob below. As the Supra runs rich at high boost the inability of the ECU to correctly calculate the fueling above fuel-cut, because one of the inputs is static, is small up to a point. The next question is at what point (manifold pressure) does the MkIV (and MkIII for interest) start to lean out? This is probably why water injection makes such a difference because the fuel that is available is cooler and thus able to deliver power to the engine more efficiently. (More effieciently burnt) (Time to get a second oxygen sensor or monitor the current one) So as a summary..... The Jap spec Supra **CALCULATES** the Mass Air Flow going into the engine using the parameters described below, one being the Manifold Air Pressure (MAP). The Export (UK) Supra directly senses the MAF using some form of butteryfly/flap type arrangement (I think) and uses this for fueling calculations along with RPM (I suppose) The MAP sensor on the Export models is only used to detect engine vacuum and pressure and doesn't directly affect fueling. Thoughts/Corrections anyone? Any guidance greatfully received. Thanks Pete *****R.Rainbolt************************************************* The fuel cut is used on both the Turbo Supra and Turbo MR2. Since both cars run relatively rich at full (stock) boost, it is "safe" to use such a circuit to prevent the computer from hitting the fuel cut function, but only up to a certain amount of boost. For the MR2, the FCD cuts in at 11 PSI, but it is safe to run the car up to about 15-16 PSI, without fuel system mods. To be safe, the best thing you can do is get an extra Oxygen Sensor installed and connected to a dash meter (HKS, Summit, Greddy, etc.) If the FCD is set to 13 PSI, I would not go over 16-17 PSI. Make sure the car never turns from rich to lean under full power. MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) is directly related to MAF (Manifold Air Flow). The amount of air moving into an engine is refferred to as Mass Air Flow (MAF). MAF is a function of 3 major factors (ignoring temp and humidity for a moment). They are: Throttle Position (TPS), Engine Speed (RPM) and Volumetric Efficiency (VE). VE is a complex component, being different values at different RPM and TPS levels. Systems that only use TPS and MAP are referred to as Speed-Density (SD) systems. They "approximate" the amount of air the engine is using computing MAF from the three above mentioned components. Toyota and other manufacturers use MAF and MAP sensors, even though it is not absolutely necessary to have both. Either will work, as long as TPS and other factors are known. On the MR2 and Supra, HKS sells a kit that actually lets you eliminate the MAF sensor. The idea is to allow for better intake breathing and better throttle response. Ric Rainbolt ************************************************************************** From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 08:18:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08289 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:18:53 -0500 Received: from web902.mail.yahoo.com (web902.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.77]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08286 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:18:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 19171 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2000 13:18:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20000107131851.19170.qmail@web902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web902.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 07 Jan 2000 05:18:51 PST Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 05:18:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ted: Sure 2 injectors would work, though if adapting a 4 injector setup (what's the Volvo?) you'd have to combine the drive pulses, easy if saturated open collector drivers, maybe more complex if peak/hold. Still maybe a problem with tradeoff between minimum pulsewidth at idle vs. WOT flow. Packaging retro-fit is always a problem, but splayed mount may make it easier. Don't really need a mill, good sharp drill with sturdy fabricated guide fixture would do, then use a reamer to get size. I'm not a welding artisan, but I can cut and file aluminum pieces, then glue them up for a prototype (JB Weld to the rescue!) Grump: I'm adapting a bone stock Ford EEC-IV (hiss!!!) SEFI. Easier to use 4 inj, I'll just have to finagle the ROM tables. I originally wanted to use the efi332 setup, but had to drop back. Still an option for the future, as this is my first cut on a continuing project. As for wall wetting, archives and list all point to this as an issue with emissions, and this is a street car that may be called on to pass the test. If I can eliminate or minimize it up-front by design, then just one less problem to deal with. As always folks, thanks for advice, comments, critique. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 15:33:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA15414 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:14 -0500 Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15408 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:13 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 126g4O-00045b-00; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:12 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) with SMTP; 7 Jan 2000 12:34:43 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 07 Jan 2000 12:33:50 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:33:50 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C7F4@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: injector mounting Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:33:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi, the Volvo jet-LH has 4 Bosch injectors. but they were all batch fired at one time. (common firing wiring). does anyone know where I could get any tools for this idea ? I had read of someone that sold a drill guide ? for a specific injector type. I was thinking of using lots of jbweld, but I got advised that it shouldn't be though of as a permanent cure. I guess I am stuck at the point of what makes a good design. It is a little tough to have the correct 'crossfire' angle and still leave a good airflow (not too much hanging out inside the intake). and work out a proper splayed fuel layout for the injectors. I have quite a collection of mgb intake manifolds now, one cast iron, etc. any thoughts would be appreciated. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #8 DIY_EFI Digest Friday, January 7 2000 Volume 05 : Number 008 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 05:18:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting Ted: Sure 2 injectors would work, though if adapting a 4 injector setup (what's the Volvo?) you'd have to combine the drive pulses, easy if saturated open collector drivers, maybe more complex if peak/hold. Still maybe a problem with tradeoff between minimum pulsewidth at idle vs. WOT flow. Packaging retro-fit is always a problem, but splayed mount may make it easier. Don't really need a mill, good sharp drill with sturdy fabricated guide fixture would do, then use a reamer to get size. I'm not a welding artisan, but I can cut and file aluminum pieces, then glue them up for a prototype (JB Weld to the rescue!) Grump: I'm adapting a bone stock Ford EEC-IV (hiss!!!) SEFI. Easier to use 4 inj, I'll just have to finagle the ROM tables. I originally wanted to use the efi332 setup, but had to drop back. Still an option for the future, as this is my first cut on a continuing project. As for wall wetting, archives and list all point to this as an issue with emissions, and this is a street car that may be called on to pass the test. If I can eliminate or minimize it up-front by design, then just one less problem to deal with. As always folks, thanks for advice, comments, critique. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #8 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 15:34:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA15466 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:34:33 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f167.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.167]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15462 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:34:32 -0500 Received: (qmail 78554 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jan 2000 20:34:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20000107203401.78553.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 166.36.17.140 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 07 Jan 2000 12:34:01 PST X-Originating-IP: [166.36.17.140] From: "Scott Christensen" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Check this out Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 14:34:01 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Check this out: http://www.leburg.freeserve.co.uk Click on the picture at the bottom to see big pic of dual electronic ignition combo alternator setup. Those ford "Zetec quad EHT coils" are nifty. Anyone seen them before? -scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 17:08:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17544 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:08:32 -0500 Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17538 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:08:31 -0500 Received: from CR929909A ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <20000107220619.JPTP7552.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@CR929909A> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:06:19 -0800 Message-ID: <002101bf595b$f2d67460$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: References: <200001071000.FAA06333@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: Volvo/MG/Spit EFI Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:10:03 -0500 Organization: Snyder Enterprises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:58:03 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 > > the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. > > I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to > aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the > back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty > unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would > be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 > larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a > more do-able idea. > > I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting > bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum > welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the > hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. I > did find someone who had a bolt-on tbi 'carb' that replaced the strombert > CD, but they wanted 500+ for it, which is too high for me. > > thanks, Ted How about drilling the manifold runners on the horizontal plane so the injectors squirt straight into the port. The holes would be tangential to the curve of the runner. You need to fire them FFRRFFRRFFRR. for 1342 firing order OR put 2 injectors in the top, and two in the bottom with 2 rails. Put them in about 15 degrees off horizontal each way From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 21:16:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20145 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:16:53 -0500 Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20142 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:16:52 -0500 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (reports.everyone.net [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEE21C240C for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 29BA480B8; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:48:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:48:32 -0800 (PST) From: dennis To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: injector bungs? Message-Id: <20000108004832.29BA480B8@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I work at an aircraft repair facility. We keep some 5/8x.035 aluminum tubing in stock to flare and make up AN tubing with. A standard port injector w/oring slips right into this stuff with just about the right tightness compared to the intakes I have stabbed with injectors. You can probably get similar tubing locally from a metal supply house. I am gonna cut some short sections and try to use them for injector mounting on a custom intake I am building for a Chrysler 2.2. I plan on drilling an angled hole, then having these epoxied in, or maybe welded if they aren't too thin for my local welder to weld. I then plan on grinding them flush on the inside of the runner. This idea combined with those cool AN style individual fuel lines sold by www.blowerdriveservice.com might get it done for you. Then you just have to hold the injectors in the hole. I don't know what country you are in, but in USA Chrysler used a multiport style injector in their pre-85 tbi 2.2s. The system they used to hold the injector in, used a snap ring and a rubber grommet. If you can get this stuff it might work. If not you can probably copy this Idea with a properly sized grommet, a washer, and a snap ring--plus a little creativity. The washer goes on first. The grommet fits around the injector about halfway up, in the recess of the side of the injector body. The grommet could probably be omitted, it just cushions the injector a bit. The snap ring goes on under it and fits tight on the injector body also in the recess. Then you use screws through the washer with their ends threaded into the manifold to pull the injector into the manifold. A plate of thin steel shaped like a small block chevy thermostat gasket, but sized properly, might also work. A small section would need to be cut out of the side so that it can slide onto the injector and into the recess. Hope this helps out for someone. dennis >I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting >bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum >welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the >hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. >thanks, Ted > _____________________________________________________________ Win a Sony AIBO at... http://www.everyone.net Make Your Site Stronger(TM) From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 21:48:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20542 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:48:37 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20539 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:48:35 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-23.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.127]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e082mXt07462 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:48:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <024601bf5983$cb3b1d20$7f0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: 'MAP' and Fueling Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:55:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | I'm new to the group and have a few (probably) simple questions. (Sorry it's | a long Email) | | What is the relationship between MAP and MAF. RPM and Air Temp are factors | in converting the MAP sensor output to match the MAF. What I am trying to do | is understand what the differences between MAP and MAF are. MAF directly measures the amount of air entering an engine. MAP is used to calculate the amount of air entering an engine. It's a wash for which is better. They both have advantages and faults in theory. Really a matter of what you perfer, and most comfortable working with. I just happen to like MAP. While it's not seemling as adaptable as the MAF, it's easier for me to understand, and work with, so I have my best results working with it. It also, is better for transiant responses, so with my analness about responsiveness, it works for me. To me ain't nothing more important tehn not running out of resolution, and table room for tuning. Tuning an engine to run 18 PSI of boost with a calibration that stops at 15 PSI, is just plan dumb, or worse in my book. Means that at either less than WOT the calibration is wrong or at WOT it's wrong, your choice. Both are losers in my book. Hate to be blunt, but that's how I see it. Grumpy Like I just said in another posting try the archives at DIY for MAP, and MAP, there is a ton in print about it | I have a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo and they come with both MAF and MAP sensor | systems for the export and Japanese spec cars. These cars have a fuel cut | which operates as soon as the manifold pressure exceeds a preset limit of | 13psi. I have designed a voltage hold circuit which clamps the output of the | sensor at 13psi (about 4.3V) and hence fools the ECU of the car into | thinking it is running much lower boost from the turbos. | The problem is that I am unsure if this will affect the fueling | charateristcis of the car if I have modified the MAP input the ECU, above | the 13psi limit. I may be having fueling problems but am unsure what I may | have done. | | Thanks for the reply from Ric Rainbolt regarding the issue. I have | faithfully added his Email below. | | *****P.Betts*********** | The US Surpa site say modifying the MAP sensor output with a fuel cut | controller is a bad idea for the Jap spec MAP sensor cars but I agree with | Rob below. As the Supra runs rich at high boost the inability of the ECU to | correctly calculate the fueling above fuel-cut, because one of the inputs is | static, is small up to a point. | | The next question is at what point (manifold pressure) does the MkIV (and | MkIII for interest) start to lean out? This is probably why water injection | makes such a difference because the fuel that is available is cooler and | thus able to deliver power to the engine more efficiently. (More | effieciently burnt) | (Time to get a second oxygen sensor or monitor the current one) | | So as a summary..... | | The Jap spec Supra **CALCULATES** the Mass Air Flow going into the engine | using the parameters described below, one being the Manifold Air Pressure | (MAP). | | The Export (UK) Supra directly senses the MAF using some form of | butteryfly/flap type arrangement (I think) and uses this for fueling | calculations along with RPM (I suppose) The MAP sensor on the Export models | is only used to detect engine vacuum and pressure and doesn't directly | affect fueling. | | Thoughts/Corrections anyone? Any guidance greatfully received. | | Thanks | Pete | | | *****R.Rainbolt************************************************* | The fuel cut is used on both the Turbo Supra and Turbo MR2. Since both | cars run relatively rich at full (stock) boost, it is "safe" to use such a | circuit to prevent the computer from hitting the fuel cut function, but | only up to a certain amount of boost. For the MR2, the FCD cuts in at 11 | PSI, but it is safe to run the car up to about 15-16 PSI, without fuel | system mods. | | To be safe, the best thing you can do is get an extra Oxygen Sensor | installed and connected to a dash meter (HKS, Summit, Greddy, etc.) If the | FCD is set to 13 PSI, I would not go over 16-17 PSI. Make sure the car | never turns from rich to lean under full power. | | MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) is directly related to MAF (Manifold Air Flow). | The amount of air moving into an engine is refferred to as Mass Air Flow | (MAF). MAF is a function of 3 major factors (ignoring temp and humidity | for a moment). They are: Throttle Position (TPS), Engine Speed (RPM) and | Volumetric Efficiency (VE). VE is a complex component, being different | values at different RPM and TPS levels. Systems that only use TPS and MAP | are referred to as Speed-Density (SD) systems. They "approximate" the | amount of air the engine is using computing MAF from the three above | mentioned components. | | Toyota and other manufacturers use MAF and MAP sensors, even though it is | not absolutely necessary to have both. Either will work, as long as TPS and | other factors are known. On the MR2 and Supra, HKS sells a kit that | actually lets you eliminate the MAF sensor. The idea is to allow for | better intake breathing and better throttle response. | | Ric Rainbolt | | ************************************************************************** | From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 02:34:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA23109 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 02:34:46 -0500 Received: from ar.ar.com.au (root@ar.ar.com.au [203.18.148.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23105; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 02:34:43 -0500 Received: from kojab.ar.com.au (dialup127.ar.com.au [203.18.148.127]) by ar.ar.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/AR-1.1) with SMTP id SAA02834; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:31:51 +1100 Message-ID: <3876E859.5878@ar.com.au> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 18:33:45 +1100 From: Richard Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Opel Barina Pin-outs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hiya all, I have got my hands on a (Opel) Holden Barina 1998 ECM. Firstly, I'm pretty sure this model isn't OBD-II compatible and this is what we've found on the 16 pin OBD-II style connector: Pin 3 Possible TTL Data Signal? Pin 4 Chassis Ground Pin 5 Signal Ground Pin 7 Measured 12V when Ignition was turned on Pin 12 ? Pin 16 12 V Anyhow, I'm very keen to hook this one up on the bench but the wiring is different to that of previous computer types. Does anybody have a wiring diagram or pinout for the ECM? Here's some numbers: 16257119 AJ Memcal type: CBXD 7066 Also, if anybody could confirm if this model is OBD-II compatible or not that would be great. As yet, we have not seen an OBD-II GM vehicle in Australia. Cheers, Andrew and Richard Wakeling. From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 08:59:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26002 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:59:10 -0500 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25999 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:59:08 -0500 Received: from [206.168.145.96] (user122.cmn.net [206.168.145.96]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA12312 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 06:53:45 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 06:59:38 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >does anyone know where I could get any tools for this idea ? I had read of >someone that sold a drill guide ? for a specific injector type. >> MSD Fuel Systems, El Paso, Texas sells one. Greg From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 09:28:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26274 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:28:24 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26271 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:28:23 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:27:45 -0500 Message-Id: <200001080927.AA33751688@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: TWM and SDS X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, I have been lurking on the list a while watching things go by. Does anyone have experiance with the TWM weber/solex style throttle bodies? I have an application that BEGS for them. Have any of you used the Simple Digital Systems setup? I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), but I don't have the time anymore for a ECU development project. Any other simple, inexpensive, systems you would recommend (4 cyl, NA application) Jim Tyler DIY_EFI Newbie From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 11:58:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28150 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 11:58:35 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28147 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 11:58:34 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas6-cs-11.dial.bright.net [209.143.37.13]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e08GwXW20184 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 11:58:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002b01bf59fa$8b61c600$0d258fd1@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001080927.AA33751688@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM and SDS Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:05:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Personally, I favor the GM ecms. If you go to www.tunercat.com , there are some hac's of the 1227165, and 1227730/1227727 ecms. Then for less than $100 is the editing software for numerous other ecms. Also, Terry Kelly has some editors available, for the gm ecms. So if you stuck with the ecms already haced and get the editor for the same, it would be easy to have an ecm that is totally in your control. Then it's just a matter of chip burner, eraser, and efi hardware. Clever buyiing will get you lots more, the the same dollars for an aftermarket one. Plus, in the event of failure, junkyards are easier to find then a SDS ecm on Sat and out of town.. Grumpy | Does anyone have experiance with the TWM weber/solex style | throttle bodies? I have an application that BEGS for them. | Have any of you used the Simple Digital Systems setup? I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), but I don't have the time anymore for a ECU development project. | Any other simple, inexpensive, systems you would recommend (4 cyl, NA application) | Jim Tyler | DIY_EFI Newbie From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:05:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32585 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:05:07 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA32582 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:05:06 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:04:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200001081904.AA2206204380@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) TWM + GM compatible injectors Assume a proper fuel delvery system (tackle that later) GM ecu + donor engine harness to hack up Is there a crank triggered 4-cyl non turbo ecu from GM that would do the following: 1) control the fuel pump on/off 2) I guess we use a GM temp sensor (no prob) for warm up. 3) trigger off the crank (I can probably fabricate that part, depending on how GM triggers) 4) fire a coil or MSD through the original dist/cap/rotor (I could do crank fire 1/coil per cyl, but am trying to keep the extra's down and don't want to try to force a GM dist into this engine) 5) I assume a TPS is used, yes? 6) Is a MAP? 7) Could I (would I want to) use a MAF with the TWM's/GM 8) What donor vehicle are you thinking? 9) I don't have emissions as an issue, do we want to or need to run an O2 sensor for the ECU to function or would it just run open loop if not connected? Sorry for all the questions I warned you about newbieness..... just getting started. Thanks a ton, Jim >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:05:19 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM and SDS > >Personally, I favor the GM ecms....... From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:53:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01097 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:53:22 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01094 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:53:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:52:43 -0500 Message-Id: <200001081952.AA1866662478@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: Nissan stuff X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone out there real familiar with Nissan ecu's/ FI? Jim Tyler From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:59:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01249 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:59:09 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01246 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:59:08 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-31.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.33]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e090x7q09606 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:59:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003501bf5a3d$ae59f860$210ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001081904.AA2206204380@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:05:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) You sure, you edited out the precious stuff, from the first post. I told you what ecms, I would consider, and where to look for info., and then you write back asking questions that a casual scan would have answered. Also, don't forget the archives, thes DIY+GMECM. You need to be informed, and just doing FAQ ain't enough, you got lots of home work. Anyway: | Is there a crank triggered 4-cyl non turbo ecu from GM that would do the | following: | 1) control the fuel pump on/off They all do after a fashion, looking at the wiring diagram for mentioned ecms at FTP will show you how, it's done | 2) I guess we use a GM temp sensor (no prob) for warm up. It's used all the time, and critical for a street car. | 3) trigger off the crank (I can probably fabricate that part, | depending on how GM triggers) Several, strategies, might consider the local library and looking at shop manuals. Might even consider figuring out what you have, and how that compares to where your going. | 4) fire a coil or MSD through the original dist/cap/rotor | (I could do crank fire 1/coil per cyl, but am trying to keep | the extra's down and don't want to try to force a GM dist into | this engine) Any 12v to 0 point open signal operates a MSD etc.. | 5) I assume a TPS is used, yes? Yes | 6) Is a MAP? The 730 hac I refered to is MAP | 7) Could I (would I want to) use a MAF with the TWM's/GM I'd go MAP, and that's what the hac is for. | 8) What donor vehicle are you thinking? I'd finish gather info about what is going on, and then worry about parts. | 9) I don't have emissions as an issue, do we want to or need | to run an O2 sensor for the ECU to function or would it just run open | loop if not connected? No big lose just using closed loop. For the novice might be easier, long term. Grumpy | Sorry for all the questions I warned you about newbieness..... | just getting started. | Thanks a ton, | Jim | | | | >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:05:19 -0500 | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: TWM and SDS | > | >Personally, I favor the GM ecms....... | From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 20:11:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01479 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:11:33 -0500 Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01476 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:11:32 -0500 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.9c.9cc5b7a9 (4572) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:10:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c.9cc5b7a9.25a93a21@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:10:57 EST Subject: Geek?!?!?! To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 1/8/00 1:12:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), >> You can't spell bEEr either... From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 22:23:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03716 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:23:15 -0500 Received: from web906.mail.yahoo.com (web906.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03713 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:23:14 -0500 Received: (qmail 24264 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2000 03:23:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20000109032313.24263.qmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.196] by web906.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 08 Jan 2000 19:23:13 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:23:13 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #9:Injector mounting To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cutting intersecting tubing and holes is not a new problem, chassis and roll bar fabricators must do it all the time. There is a widely used tool, ('ole joint jigger, etc. ) that accomplished this task. It can be adjusted for tubing up to 2-3 inches, and almost any intersecting angle. Uses a standard hand drill with common hole saws. ...I guess I am stuck at > the point of what makes > a good design. It is a little tough to have the > correct 'crossfire' angle > and still leave a good airflow (not too much hanging > out inside the intake). > and work out a proper splayed fuel layout for the > injectors.... But since the Volvo used batch fire, as Grumpy pointed out, why bother? What size motor was the Volvo? MGB was 1.8L AFIR. Look up the flow on the 4 injectors you have (Lucas, Bosch, ?), then find some compatible ones that will flow enough for the MGB using just two. flow req = (MGB motor)/(Volvo motor) x (inj flow) x 2 So if the Volvo was 2.2L, injectors 19 lb, then flow req = (1.8)/(2.2) x 19 x 2 = 31 lb Of course, this assumes similar VE, max RPM usage, etc., YMMV. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 22:36:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03884 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:36:26 -0500 Received: from web905.mail.yahoo.com (web905.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.80]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03881 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:36:25 -0500 Received: (qmail 9517 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2000 03:36:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20000109033624.9516.qmail@web905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.196] by web905.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 08 Jan 2000 19:36:24 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:36:24 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Injector Spray Pattern To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know how to find out the spray pattern angle of an injector from it's part number or application? Recent list threads reminded me that I must use a narrow angle injector on my project. If I had an injector spray bench, and access to every injector made, I could find out. Although I would love to build an injector test bench someday, this is not the time. I know that this is an important part of the design spec for an injector (size and shape of the pintle and seat, etc. ), so the data exists somewhere. Failing that, does anyone have any empirical info? Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 12:49:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12245 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:49:13 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12242; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:49:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:48:33 -0500 Message-Id: <200001091248.AA17039948@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: , Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #11 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Now you re taking me back to school! Lots of drunk geeks...! A pretty female EE I knew one told me: "Anyone who is into FET's, Eproms, and micro's is a geek at heart; some of us just hide it better than others!" She later posed in one of those playboy school pictorials, just for fun. (No offense, All in fun!) >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:10:57 EST >From: A70Duster@aol.com >Subject: Geek?!?!?! > >In a message dated 1/8/00 1:12:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, >DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > ><< I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my >background too!), >> > > >You can't spell bEEr either... > > From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 13:08:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12356 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:32 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12353; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:07:53 -0500 Message-Id: <200001091307.AA2211381876@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: , Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:05:54 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM > >| OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) > >You sure, you edited out the precious stuff, from the first post. >I told you what ecms, I would consider, and where to look for info., and Thanks very much. I did save the precious stuff and found "programming 101", and some of the hacks. There was alot of good info in that short email, thanks again. >Several, strategies, might consider the local library and looking at shop >manuals. Might even consider figuring out what you have, and how that >compares to where your going. Is there a particular text or manual that comes to mind for this type setup (MAP,TPS, dist)? The original application is a very solid, free breathing, 4 cylinder which had carbs and points. I can either modify the dist or go crank triggered. There are no GM parts that will direct fit. The TWM's are perfect since there is a very nice manifold available, all bolt up making that part attractive. Jim From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 13:40:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12716 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:40:00 -0500 Received: from web2101.mail.yahoo.com (web2101.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.245]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12711 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:39:59 -0500 Received: (qmail 12793 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2000 18:39:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20000109183958.12792.qmail@web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.45.12.253] by web2101.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2000 10:39:58 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:39:58 -0800 (PST) From: Nahuel Garavaglia Subject: Efi for motorcycle To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, actually i'm riding a yamaha radian 600, i have two of them one totally original an another one totally unmounted, on the second i rebuilding the engine, 'cause the carbs are totalle termined! and 'cause i owner of a nissan repairing shop i'm planing to make it an EFI RADIAN, i have a lot of inyectors in some condition to make a premier test, i think about devdelop a MAP type efi, can anubody send me ideas. ===== Nahuel Garavaglia ngarav@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 14:45:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13415 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:45:23 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13412 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:45:22 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-31.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.135]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e09JjK512299 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:45:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00e201bf5adb$02c0f140$870ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001091307.AA2211381876@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:52:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It literally takes years to accumulate the info..... I've been actively gathering EFI stuff since 85, and have a small library of info., and lost alot in a tornado, so some of what I do is from memory (failing thou as it is). Anyway, that's why I always seem a little short always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is written for what someone is working one. If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact General Motors Training Materials MSX International Marketing Service 1426 Pacific Dr Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 (800) 393-4831 Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm systems, and options for some components. Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. The gm sensors are generally regular pipe threads so they are no brainers to work. For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on it. Grumpy | Is there a particular text or manual that comes to mind for this type | setup (MAP,TPS, dist)? | The original application is a very solid, free breathing, 4 cylinder which had carbs and points. I can either modify the dist or go crank | triggered. There are no GM parts that will direct fit. | The TWM's are perfect since there is a very nice manifold available, | all bolt up making that part attractive. | Jim From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:08:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17122 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:08:19 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17119; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:08:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:07:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200001091907.AA2297758212@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: , Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It is a Nissan U20 engine if that tells you anything. There is a Pertronics and Crane/Allison kit available if that helps. How many triggers/crossings do the GM distributor type systems usually use? (I'll look into it myself) Yes, the TWM's have TPS's (various types available),so that part is easy. >always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 >cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a >vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is >written for what someone is working one. > If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact > >General Motors Training Materials >MSX International Marketing Service >1426 Pacific Dr >Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 >(800) 393-4831 > >Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm >systems, and options for some components. > Thanks, Sounds very good. >Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a >parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the >back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... > >If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then >you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done >for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil >driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut >the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick >cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. > > For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal >linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on >it. >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:21:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17478 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:21:34 -0500 Received: from perama01.erggroup.com (perama01.erggroup.com [203.23.26.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17475 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:21:31 -0500 From: dzorde@erggroup.com Received: by aupera03.erggroup.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 48256862.0001D12F ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:19:50 +0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ERG_GROUP To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <48256862.0001CF7B.00@aupera03.erggroup.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:19:45 +0800 Subject: LRP and O2 sensors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, For those unaware, Western Australia has just moved from leaded petrol to lead replacement petrol (oh joy, like New Zealand). Anyway there has been lots of talk about whether it harms the older engines, but no one has mentioned whether it is now safe to permanently mount the O2 in the car. So I guess my question is, can anyone confirm whether O2 sensors are resistant to LRP (apparently LRP is based on premium unleaded blended with a potassium brew of some sort) ? Dan dzorde@erggroup.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:44:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17780 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:44:59 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17777 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:44:58 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas5-cs-3.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.209]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0A0iuU22219 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:44:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01bf01bf5b04$dbfc3900$870ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001091907.AA2297758212@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:51:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away when you asked for em. For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch fires which coil pack etc.. Grumpy | It is a Nissan U20 engine if that tells you anything. There is a Pertronics and Crane/Allison kit available if that helps. How many | triggers/crossings do the GM distributor type systems usually use? | (I'll look into it myself) | Yes, the TWM's have TPS's (various types available),so that part is easy. | >always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 | >cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a | >vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is | >written for what someone is working one. | > If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact | >General Motors Training Materials | >MSX International Marketing Service | >1426 Pacific Dr | >Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 | >(800) 393-4831 | >Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm | >systems, and options for some components. | Thanks, Sounds very good. | >Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a | >parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the | >back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... | >If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then | >you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done | >for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil | >driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut | >the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick | >cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. | > For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal | >linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on | >it. | >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 20:35:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA18702 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:35:53 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18698 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:35:52 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas5-cs-3.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.209]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0A1ZpU27373 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:35:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01e701bf5b0b$f8850be0$870ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <48256862.0001CF7B.00@aupera03.erggroup.com> Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:42:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your questions. Grumpy | Hi all, | For those unaware, Western Australia has just moved from leaded petrol to lead | replacement petrol (oh joy, like New Zealand). Anyway there has been lots of | talk about whether it harms the older engines, but no one has mentioned whether | it is now safe to permanently mount the O2 in the car. So I guess my question | is, can anyone confirm whether O2 sensors are resistant to LRP (apparently LRP | is based on premium unleaded blended with a potassium brew of some sort) ? | Dan dzorde@erggroup.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 22:21:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20370 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:21:14 -0500 Received: from mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com [24.221.30.31]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20367 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:21:13 -0500 Received: from WallaceA (hybrid-024-221-018-005.phoenix.speedchoice.com [24.221.18.5]) by mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (8.9.3/) with SMTP id UAA01357 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:21:23 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <00d101bf5b19$e344a520$0512dd18@Gustafson.phoenix.speedchoice.com> From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" To: "DIY_EFI Mailing List" Subject: Need Source For Small Gas Engine Fuel Injection Parts Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:22:12 -0700 Organization: Cobra Racing & Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need any source that anyone might have about small gasoline engine = fuel injection part suppiers. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I need any source that anyone might = have about=20 small gasoline engine fuel injection part suppiers.
 
Thank you.
------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 10:43:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28428 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:43:12 -0500 Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28425 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:43:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:43:10 -0500 From: brucep@ptd.net Message-Id: <200001101543.KAA28425@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 1401 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2000 15:42:46 -0000 Received: from brucepal.msns.eph.ptd.net (24.229.59.10) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 2000 15:42:46 -0000 X-Sender: brucep@mail.ptdprolog.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Knock Sensor on Dyno Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. I already have a digital tach, torque and 10 channel thermocouple thermometer in the works. I was wondering if I could add a knock sensor to my list also? What specifically would I need to use a sensor ie power and how do I read it? I'd like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? Can I put the sensor in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? Another idea I have is to read intake air, not sure whether Mass air sensor will work due to stand off fuel (might make a big flame), or a MAP sensor maybe inside some type of velocity stack? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas! This list is a wealth of knowledge, anyone wanting to see my ongoing dyno build stop by my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/brucepts/pts.htm Bruce There are those that have, and those that will . . . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 17:25:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02992 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:29 -0500 Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02989; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #37771) with ESMTP id <0FO500J014YF4R@emerald.tufts.edu>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:27 -0500 (EST) From: Andris Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno In-reply-to: <200001102000.PAA00359@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Monday, January 10 2000 Volume 05 : Number 014 > > > > In this issue: > > Knock Sensor on Dyno > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would sound similar. > Can I put the sensor > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? I think as long as the sensor is in contact with the cooling jacket water, you should be OK. HTH! Andris/SPD Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFi Twin Turbo From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 17:51:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03397 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:51:57 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03392 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:51:55 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-29.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.82]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0AMpr222977 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:51:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <017b01bf5bbe$3f74db40$520ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:58:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If, I were going to do something like this, I'd just grab a couple sensors from like a 4-6-8 Gm, then Chyrler, product line. Then just setup a little Op-Amp and wire that to a comparator to turn on a LED. Use an ajustable threshold on comparator to tune out back ground noise. If mounted in head parrarel with rod travel, if from side of cylinder right angle to rod travel seems to be about the logic in mounting from what I've seen. Securely mounted being the buzz word here. You might even try the stock ESC of the matching year application (there are several very different KS from gm), so they match the ESC module... If the EPA was breathing down my back, I would probably get real anal about being dead on for frequency. But for DIY_EFI, I think the above is close enough. Just remember free advise is just that..... No guarantees | > Knock Sensor on Dyno | > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines | > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was | > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. | > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of | > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? | The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors | is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've | read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the | characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had | several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 | and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a | little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would | sound similar. | > Can I put the sensor | > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? | I think as long as the sensor is in contact with the cooling jacket water, | you should be OK. HTH! | Andris/SPD From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:00:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03540 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:34 -0500 Received: from web905.mail.yahoo.com (web905.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.80]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA03533 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:33 -0500 Received: (qmail 24519 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2000 23:00:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20000110230032.24518.qmail@web905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.174] by web905.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce, I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, etc. In other words, they are specific to a given engine. I have been working with freeware audio spectrum analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even better results. Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look for knock signals for that specific motor. All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter Shore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:00:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03545 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:37 -0500 Received: from web905.mail.yahoo.com (web905.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.80]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA03534 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:33 -0500 Received: (qmail 24519 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2000 23:00:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20000110230032.24518.qmail@web905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.174] by web905.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce, I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, etc. In other words, they are specific to a given engine. I have been working with freeware audio spectrum analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even better results. Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look for knock signals for that specific motor. All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter Shore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:12:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03766 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:12:01 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03763 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:12:00 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-29.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.82]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0ANBxM08017 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:11:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01a901bf5bc1$0dbbf220$520ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <20000110230032.24518.qmail@web905.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:18:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I didn't say they were. That's why I said to get a few and try them... And BS to engine specific. The one I'm running in my F-Body (355 CID), is from a 3.8L 85MY, as I recall. See I went and got several ESC moddules, and sensors and actually tinkered with mix and matching them, so I do have some notion on how the things ACTUALLY work. Audio analyzer, gee great. I did my actual on car testing with a $20 old scanner, and will match my results to anyone's. Theory is fine, but execution is what matters!!.. Grumpy Hmm, wonder why?. | Bruce, | I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive | to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, | etc. In other words, they are specific to a given | engine. | I have been working with freeware audio spectrum | analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By | connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and | then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block | with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic | frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The | resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can | safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even | better results. | Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look | for knock signals for that specific motor. | All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone | (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. | YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. | Carter Shore From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:27:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03954 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:27:30 -0500 Received: from oh.verio.com (users.oh.verio.com [209.57.253.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03951 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:27:28 -0500 Received: from gderian (dialcust-43.ts6.cv.oh.verio.net [205.212.2.43]) by oh.verio.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA09069 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:27:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <019001bf5bc2$3520fa80$a501d4cd@gderian> From: "Gary Derian" To: References: <200001102000.PAA00359@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:26:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MAF or map will work fine on the dyno but you need a large damping volume between it and the engine. A knock sensor is just a piezoelectric microphone, you can mount it anywhere. You will have to do some trial and error to see what works. Gary Derian > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. I already have > a digital tach, torque and 10 channel thermocouple thermometer in the works. > I was wondering if I could add a knock sensor to my list also? What > specifically would I need to use a sensor ie power and how do I read it? I'd > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? Can I put the sensor > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? Another idea I > have is to read intake air, not sure whether Mass air sensor will work due > to stand off fuel (might make a big flame), or a MAP sensor maybe inside > some type of velocity stack? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas! This > list is a wealth of knowledge, anyone wanting to see my ongoing dyno build > stop by my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/brucepts/pts.htm > > Bruce > > There are those that have, and those that will . . . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 19:17:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04529 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:17:59 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04526 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:17:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:17:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200001101917.AA40763874@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. Jim ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:51:37 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and >get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away >when you asked for em. > For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. > For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally >spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >fires which coil pack etc.. >Grumpy > From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 20:02:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05249 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:02:31 -0500 Received: from perama01.erggroup.com (perama01.erggroup.com [203.23.26.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05244 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:02:29 -0500 From: dzorde@erggroup.com Received: by aupera03.erggroup.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 48256863.0005911D ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:00:48 +0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ERG_GROUP To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <48256863.00058F48.00@aupera03.erggroup.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:00:42 +0800 Subject: Re: LRP and O2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK, here's a true novice question then. Have never owned a car that runs unleaded, what colour should the plugs be when you are running unleaded, after all cars on unleaded always seem to have black tailpipes ? Dan dzorde@erggroup.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:42:34 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your questions. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:10:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05775 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:10:39 -0500 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05772 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:10:38 -0500 Received: from [199.175.107.12] (helo=johnd) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 127qlW-00011V-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:10:36 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01bf5bda$29f31d60$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: Pulse Width at -40 degrees Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:18:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, Other than the fact that the colder air is denser and drier how much longer should the pulse width be extended relative to a pulse width at say freezing temperatures? 5% 10% 100% 200% Is there anyone out there in a cold climate that can measure the pulse width of a cold engine at -20 to -40 compared to what it is when the engine has been parked in a garage at just above freezing? The problem is that where I live the Winter temperature is currently +2C and still fairly humid in this temperate rain forest. An engine we have installed out where it's -20C has a heck of a time starting unless they warm up the engine compartment with a space heater. I realize this is a problem that people in California do not have. Same with people who only race in the summer. Anyone done and DIY_EFI for an ice racer? Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:40:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06208 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:40:16 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06205 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:40:15 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-29.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.82]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0B2eDM12724 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:40:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01d201bf5bde$241fe2c0$520ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <000e01bf5bda$29f31d60$0100a8c0@johnd.islandnet.com> Subject: Re: Pulse Width at -40 degrees Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Note a universal formula, depends on engine. If you were to look thru the hacs at www.tunercat.com there is lots of useful info about air temp., coolant temps for the gm ecms. Grumpy | Other than the fact that the colder air is denser and drier how much longer | should the pulse width be extended relative to a pulse width at say freezing | temperatures? 5% 10% 100% 200% | | Is there anyone out there in a cold climate that can measure the pulse width of | a cold engine at -20 to -40 compared to what it is when the engine has been | parked in a garage at just above freezing? | | The problem is that where I live the Winter temperature is currently +2C and | still fairly humid in this temperate rain forest. An engine we have installed | out where it's -20C has a heck of a time starting unless they warm up the engine | compartment with a space heater. I realize this is a problem that people in | California do not have. Same with people who only race in the summer. Anyone | done and DIY_EFI for an ice racer? | | Thanks, | | John | | | | From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:43:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06278 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:43:30 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06274 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:43:28 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-29.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.82]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0B2hRM20345 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:43:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01e001bf5bde$97c990e0$520ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <48256863.00058F48.00@aupera03.erggroup.com> Subject: Re: LRP and O2 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:49:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Very light beige, to bone white (bleached off white color), watch for glue oozing out from the center electrode (heat range/timing). grumpy | OK, here's a true novice question then. Have never owned a car that runs | unleaded, what colour should the plugs be when you are running unleaded, after | all cars on unleaded always seem to have black tailpipes ? | | Dan dzorde@erggroup.com | | | Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:42:34 -0500 | From: "Bruce Plecan" | Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors | | All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. | Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then | there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is | no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading | plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your | questions. | Grumpy | | | From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:47:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:25 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06338 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:23 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-29.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.82]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0B2lMM29640 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01ec01bf5bdf$23beba80$520ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001101917.AA40763874@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:54:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, I'd still go the dissy route Grumpy | I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. | However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to | make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. | Jim | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM | >If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and | >get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away | >when you asked for em. | > For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. | > For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally | >spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious | >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch | >fires which coil pack etc.. | >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 07:52:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA13422 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:40 -0500 Received: from web903.mail.yahoo.com (web903.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.78]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA13417 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 10485 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2000 12:52:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000111125237.10484.qmail@web903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web903.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 07:52:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA13427 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:41 -0500 Received: from web903.mail.yahoo.com (web903.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.78]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA13416 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 10485 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2000 12:52:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000111125237.10484.qmail@web903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web903.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 08:34:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA13732 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:04 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13729 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:32:54 -0500 Message-Id: <200001110832.AA25363080@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for from the trigger wheel? Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. Dopey >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:54:10 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and >measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for >enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, >I'd still go the dissy route >Grumpy > > >| I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. >| However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to >| make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? >Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. >| Jim From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 09:25:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14823 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:25:30 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14820 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:25:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:24:50 -0500 Message-Id: <200001110924.AA129761952@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? In this case a dist is not an option. I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. Dopey >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >| >fires which coil pack etc.. >| >Grumpy > >------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 13:15:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19548 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:15:15 -0500 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA19543 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:15:14 -0500 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id MAA29294; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:15:13 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma029288; Tue, 11 Jan 00 12:14:56 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09990 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:14:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <387B726E.F8197DEB@arm.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:11:58 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Knock sensor on Dyno References: <200001111000.FAA11751@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) > From: Carter Shore > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno > > Bruce, > I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive > to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, > etc. In other words, they are specific to a given > engine. > > I have been working with freeware audio spectrum > analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By > connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and > then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block > with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic > frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The > resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can > safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even > better results. > > Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look > for knock signals for that specific motor. > > All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone > (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. > > YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter -- what is this software called and where is it available from? This is very interesting. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 16:43:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23367 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:43:43 -0500 Received: from kla-tencor.com (mail01.kla-tencor.com [206.67.220.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23364 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:43:42 -0500 Received: from milxbh02.kla-tencor.com (exchange2.kla-tencor.com [10.208.10.137]) by kla-tencor.com (8.9.1b+Sun/KLAC-1.0i) with ESMTP id NAA18803 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by milxbh02.kla-tencor.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:43:02 -0800 Message-ID: <933713F1FB7BD111AC2300A0C98F1AD1033E4BBF@milxpr06.kla-tencor.com> From: "Buchholz, Steven" To: "'DIY-EFI'" Subject: Knock Sensing Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:43:00 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some time ago I found a reasonable reference on knock detection on TI's website ... I checked and found it is still there ... here's an abstract: ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING SPECTRAL ANALYSIS WITH TMS320C25 OR TMS320C30 DSPS - An efficient method of detecting combustion engine knock is using spectral analysis. The detection process algorithm adapts to a no-knock reference at varying speeds and loads by using multiple frequencies. This document presents an problem overview, current technology, and two implementation examples are given to aid in the development of system specific hardware and software. The first system is based on the 32-bit floating-point TMS320C30 DSP with software written in C. The second is production oriented using a TMS320C25 16-bit fixed-point DSP and assembler software. The appendix contains the code for each implementation. http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/psheets/abstract/apps/spra039.htm I have been contemplating the addition of a knock sensor to an engine which did not originally have one so that I can start tweaking the performance. While this reference does give a good background into the whys and hows from a DSP standpoint, it doesn't go into strategies for mounting sensor(s) for best results. Are there any references that discuss this sort of issue? Does anyone know any companies who actually make the sensors? I'd love to see specs for typical sensors (frequency response and such). The TI reference states that there are two types of "indirect" knock sensors, ones that are tuned to specific frequencies and broadband units. From what I've seen I'm thinking that most if not all of the knock sensors I've seen have been tuned units to minimize the amount of subsequent processing required. It seems to me that if one were contemplating adding a knock sensor to an engine, the broadband approach might be the preferred solution. Steve Buchholz San Jose, CA (USA) From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 18:42:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25582 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:42:17 -0500 Received: from mail.rdc1.il.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25579 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:42:15 -0500 Received: from ix.netcom.com ([24.14.126.137]) by mail.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000111234211.KIRU26071.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@ix.netcom.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:42:11 -0800 Message-ID: <387BC11B.EF3DE91B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:47:39 +0000 From: Donald Whisnant X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 68HC11 Disassembler... References: <200001112000.PAA21303@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For people who have wanted to download my HC11 disassembler during this past month-and-a-half or so and found that my website was down, I just wanted to let you know that it is back up and running and appologize for any inconvenience... I moved to switch jobs and am now on a different internet service, though from the user perspective, the site appears the same... The current address for the front-end of the site is: http://dewhisna.home.netcom.com The HC11 disassembler link can be found on the download page: http://dewhisna.home.netcom.com/download.html My old ISP still has my site active, though I don't know how long they will keep it active... There you'll only find a link to this new location... And unfortunately, all of the search engines still only have the old site listed... I will be putting up a mirror for this new front-end of the site once I get the details worked out with my new ISP... And I eventually plan to register a name for the site... But in the meantime, use the above address and enjoy... As for the next version (1.2), it is basically complete except for the manual re-writes -- I've been too busy with the job switch and relocation to get it completed yet -- but it's coming (I promise)... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@ix.netcom.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 18:55:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25956 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:55:32 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25946 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:55:30 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-12.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.14]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0BNtTs10741 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:55:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <015e01bf5c90$4e059d20$0e0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001110924.AA129761952@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:02:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu First one that jumps to mind is the late vortec. You really need to find a parts house that has some catalogs with photos for part ID'ing. They do exist from Delco, and Standard Electronics. Grumpy | For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? | In this case a dist is not an option. | I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. | Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? Nope, check out the GN Type list info.. Almost stockers can run to 6.5K. GM includes a "rev limit" to corral warranty costs, ie weak valve springs, limited injector size. Too often that gets credit as a weak ignition. All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it | to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. | | Dopey | | >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch | >| >fires which coil pack etc.. | >| >Grumpy | > | >------------------------------ | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:01:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26659 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:01:39 -0500 Received: from relay5.smtp.psi.net (relay5.smtp.psi.net [38.9.28.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26656 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:01:37 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay5.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 128CAK-0005O8-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:01:36 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay5.smtp.psi.net [38.9.28.2]) with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 17:03:04 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:01:59 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:02:00 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C882@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:02:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu howdy and thanks for the tip to go look at the fuel injection parts MSD has. (I was talking about mounting injectors. as some of you probably know, msd has some flexible fuel hose hardware, "injector manifold pocket, epoxy-in" pn 2145. and a range of hose hardware, also injectors. by any chance does anyone have 4 of these hanging around ? I really only need 2 right now, I'd hate to have to buy 8 (set). I suspect that I'll buy injectors from msd also, I have to figure out the flow. I was going to look up the flow rate of the bosch injectors I got from my donor 2.3 volvo and double that. does anyone know if bosch injectors are low impedence or not ? they were batch fired by the volvo jettronic lh computer, I'm trying to figure out if I buy msd injectors, if my computer will drive them directly or not. thanks. Ted Stowe -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 11 2000 Volume 05 : Number 016 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Re: TWM & GMECM Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors Re: Knock sensor on Dyno See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:32:54 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for from the trigger wheel? Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. Dopey >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:54:10 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and >measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for >enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, >I'd still go the dissy route >Grumpy > > >| I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. >| However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to >| make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? >Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. >| Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:24:50 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? In this case a dist is not an option. I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. Dopey >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >| >fires which coil pack etc.. >| >Grumpy > >------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:11:58 -0600 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Knock sensor on Dyno > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) > From: Carter Shore > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno > > Bruce, > I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive > to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, > etc. In other words, they are specific to a given > engine. > > I have been working with freeware audio spectrum > analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By > connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and > then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block > with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic > frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The > resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can > safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even > better results. > > Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look > for knock signals for that specific motor. > > All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone > (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. > > YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter -- what is this software called and where is it available from? This is very interesting. - --steve - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. 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From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:04:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26685 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:26 -0500 Received: from web906.mail.yahoo.com (web906.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26679 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:25 -0500 Received: (qmail 3196 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2000 01:04:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20000112010424.3195.qmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.150] by web906.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:04:24 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:04:24 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16:Knock Sensor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some requests for the software I'm playing with. It's a program called 'spectragraph', available for download at: www.monumental.com/rshorne/gram.html There may be other better ones out there, but this one seemed to fit my needs. If this works, maybe we could keep a library of 'knock signatures' by engine. There's an app note for a chip that does FFT for KS, but maybe overkill; if you can find the fundamental resonant knock freq with better than 6 dB S/N ratio, why look any further? On the other hand, multiple mics and holographic audio imaging could allow you to pinpoint not just knock to the individual cylinder, but maybe detect impending bearing failures etc. before they go catastrophic. What about an 'active' electronic crankshaft damper that attenuates 'on the fly'. Oops, sorry for the geek out. Anyway. I wonder what kinds of things might influence the knock signature? Maybe forged vs cast crank? Certainly aluminum vs cast iron block/heads. Maybe the intake manifold or headers. Aluminum flywheel? Different crank dampers? Would the KS change if you used filler in the water jackets? What about just bore/stroke changes? Operating temperature? Manual vs auto trans? Lot's of questions, no answers yet. Might be it just doesn't matter. We'll see. Could be fun. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:04:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26689 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:27 -0500 Received: from web906.mail.yahoo.com (web906.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26680 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:25 -0500 Received: (qmail 3196 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2000 01:04:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20000112010424.3195.qmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.150] by web906.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:04:24 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:04:24 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16:Knock Sensor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some requests for the software I'm playing with. It's a program called 'spectragraph', available for download at: www.monumental.com/rshorne/gram.html There may be other better ones out there, but this one seemed to fit my needs. If this works, maybe we could keep a library of 'knock signatures' by engine. There's an app note for a chip that does FFT for KS, but maybe overkill; if you can find the fundamental resonant knock freq with better than 6 dB S/N ratio, why look any further? On the other hand, multiple mics and holographic audio imaging could allow you to pinpoint not just knock to the individual cylinder, but maybe detect impending bearing failures etc. before they go catastrophic. What about an 'active' electronic crankshaft damper that attenuates 'on the fly'. Oops, sorry for the geek out. Anyway. I wonder what kinds of things might influence the knock signature? Maybe forged vs cast crank? Certainly aluminum vs cast iron block/heads. Maybe the intake manifold or headers. Aluminum flywheel? Different crank dampers? Would the KS change if you used filler in the water jackets? What about just bore/stroke changes? Operating temperature? Manual vs auto trans? Lot's of questions, no answers yet. Might be it just doesn't matter. We'll see. Could be fun. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:22:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26810 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:05 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26807 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:04 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-12.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.14]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0C1M3s10591 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01d901bf5c9c$65309700$0e0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <20000112010424.3195.qmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16:Knock Sensor Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:28:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | If this works, maybe we could keep a library of 'knock | signatures' by engine. Sure seems like putting alot of effort into a dead ended subject, thou The basic flaw with all this is that all the stuff you mention below effects an acoustic sensor. An acoustic sensor, is a half hearted attempt at knock detection, since so many items can false trigger it. Why not work on a Ion knock detection strategy. Something that looks for any knock on any engine, rather then some feable side effects of detonation. | | There's an app note for a chip that does FFT for KS, | but maybe overkill; if you can find the fundamental | resonant knock freq with better than 6 dB S/N ratio, | why look any further? | | On the other hand, multiple mics and holographic audio | imaging could allow you to pinpoint not just knock to | the individual cylinder, but maybe detect impending | bearing failures etc. before they go catastrophic. | What about an 'active' electronic crankshaft damper | that attenuates 'on the fly'. Listen for enough noises, adn the thing will always be triggering. | | Oops, sorry for the geek out. Anyway. | | I wonder what kinds of things might influence the | knock signature? Maybe forged vs cast crank? Certainly | aluminum vs cast iron block/heads. Maybe the intake | manifold or headers. Aluminum flywheel? Different | crank dampers? Would the KS change if you used filler | in the water jackets? What about just bore/stroke | changes? Operating temperature? Manual vs auto trans? And most any mechanical lifter cam drives it into fits....... Oh well. Grumpy | | Lot's of questions, no answers yet. Might be it just | doesn't matter. We'll see. Could be fun. | | Carter | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. | http://im.yahoo.com | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 22:40:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28581 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:40:13 -0500 Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28578 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:40:12 -0500 Received: from ix.netcom.com (sji-ca36-188.ix.netcom.com [207.92.172.188]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00864 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:40:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <387BF6DF.C641493F@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:37:04 -0800 From: Bill Sundahl X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Take a look at http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm This shows some of the work that I have done on recording and analyzing the signal off of an Eagle Talon knock sensor. The sensor does not seem to be "tuned" that I can tell, it's just a wide band microphone. I am assuming that the GM sensors are very similar. The Talon uses a fancy filter circuit inside the ECU to detect knock, but I have never been able to figure out exactly what it looks for in the signal. -Bill From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 08:40:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01233 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:40:04 -0500 Received: from keybank.com ([156.77.98.54]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01230 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:40:03 -0500 From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com Received: by keybank.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 85256864.004A8991 ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:34:08 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: KEYCORP To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <85256864.004A8844.00@keybank.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:39:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensor. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It seems this discussion has illustrated two separate camps on the Knock sensor issue: the "simple microphone camp" and the "far more complicated camp". No offense intended for either group. For those in the "simple microphone" camp, MSD makes a universal knock sensor with an LED bar graph and alarm. Summit Racing sells it for about $150. It has adjustment for sensitivity and volume. It comes with a threaded "microphone" and an adapter to fit different size holes. I'm not sure of the manufacturer or availability of the microphone alone. (if someone knows, please tell me, I need to replace mine). It appears to be working on my application, but I'm sure its not as good as it could be, and I certainly wouldn't tune an engine by it. But when there was a problem it has warned me of it before I could actually hear the detonation. Perhaps everyone knows about this device but no one mentioned it due to a consensus that it is junk. If so, I apologize. Rod From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 08:59:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01445 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:45 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01442 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200001120859.AA1995309558@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks. OOOH My wife has a Tahoe, where is that ECM? Yet another way to piss her off! My GM literature is on the way! That should answer some of the more basic questions and prompt alot more. Jim From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors First one that jumps to mind is the late vortec. You really need to find a parts house that has some catalogs with photos for part ID'ing. They do exist from Delco, and Standard Electronics. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 09:46:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01968 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:46:13 -0500 Received: from mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01965 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:46:09 -0500 Received: from leslie [212.140.219.146] by mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.5.0.R) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:47:59 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111192315.009268dc@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:23:15 +0000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Knock Sensor on Dyno In-Reply-To: <200001111000.FAA11751@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Return-Path: alaw@mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:00 11/01/00 -0500, you wrote: >> >> Knock Sensor on Dyno >> >> See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >> DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. >> >> I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines >> up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was >> reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. > >> like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of >> which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? > >The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors >is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've >read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the >characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had >several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 >and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a >little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would >sound similar. If it was me I would just plant a microphone somewhere on the block then use software to sort out what is and what isn't just like humans do.... Much easier to do than tuning sensors... the amount you pay for Hi-fi Microphones/speakers is testament to this. Ade From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 10:25:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02514 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:06 -0500 Received: from web901.mail.yahoo.com (web901.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.76]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02508 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 27420 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2000 15:24:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20000112152439.27419.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:24:39 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17:Knock sensor, etc. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Bruce, I had not thought about noise contribution from mech valvetrain. And of course, IGOR will allow some very accurate knock detection, but I didn't think it was available yet. Here's a Q, do you know how/if GM systems handle false KS trigger, vs RPM? For example, say an ECU has a KS sensitive to say, 4,000 Hz. Frequency of bormal internal noise from the motor varies with RPM, so at some RPM, it will also create 4,000 Hz noise that would trigger the KS. Does the code ignore KS at certain RPM? Bill, I looked at your site, it's good stuff. I had seen the app note, was looking for a simpler (lazy and cheap) way to do it. Plus, if my motor's knock signature matched a stock unit, I could just use off the shelf stuff. I downloaded your knocking WAV file, to play with. I did not see a display where you had examined the signal in 'line' or 'bar' mode. This would show up any resonant freq and harmonics as spikes, much easier to pick out specific components of a sound. Requires a sound card in PC, so I'll have to wait 'till I get home to try it. Does anyone have access to a supply of different KS? It might be useful to document the resonant freq and output levels of various stock parts. Just need a signal generator and a scope (or Spectrograph). I'll volunteer to run the tests, if we can work out a way to ship the units. Some details to hash out if any interest. Thanks all, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 10:25:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02525 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:12 -0500 Received: from web901.mail.yahoo.com (web901.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.76]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02507 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 27420 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2000 15:24:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20000112152439.27419.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.53.159.194] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:24:39 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17:Knock sensor, etc. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Bruce, I had not thought about noise contribution from mech valvetrain. And of course, IGOR will allow some very accurate knock detection, but I didn't think it was available yet. Here's a Q, do you know how/if GM systems handle false KS trigger, vs RPM? For example, say an ECU has a KS sensitive to say, 4,000 Hz. Frequency of bormal internal noise from the motor varies with RPM, so at some RPM, it will also create 4,000 Hz noise that would trigger the KS. Does the code ignore KS at certain RPM? Bill, I looked at your site, it's good stuff. I had seen the app note, was looking for a simpler (lazy and cheap) way to do it. Plus, if my motor's knock signature matched a stock unit, I could just use off the shelf stuff. I downloaded your knocking WAV file, to play with. I did not see a display where you had examined the signal in 'line' or 'bar' mode. This would show up any resonant freq and harmonics as spikes, much easier to pick out specific components of a sound. Requires a sound card in PC, so I'll have to wait 'till I get home to try it. Does anyone have access to a supply of different KS? It might be useful to document the resonant freq and output levels of various stock parts. Just need a signal generator and a scope (or Spectrograph). I'll volunteer to run the tests, if we can work out a way to ship the units. Some details to hash out if any interest. Thanks all, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 14:06:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05751 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:06:23 -0500 Received: from taz.info2000.net (IDENT:root@mail.info2000.net [204.144.228.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05748; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:06:22 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net Received: from george ([206.168.206.18]) by taz.info2000.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04808; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:06:20 -0700 Message-Id: <200001121906.MAA04808@taz.info2000.net> To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:03:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: injectors X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a couple of injectors that I need flow rates for. I have looked around and have found nothing. Maybe the people on the list could help. Here are the numbers: Bosch 0 280 150 209 Bosch 0 280 150 902 Siemens 4418474 With this, what is the formula to get sec/gram from #/hr or grams/sec. I haven't messed with this stuff that much. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 14:11:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05851 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:11:49 -0500 Received: from queeg.ludd.luth.se (IDENT:root@queeg.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.109]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05848 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:11:47 -0500 Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (rotax@father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by queeg.ludd.luth.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20184 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:11:42 +0100 (CET) From: "Daniel R. Henriksson" Received: (rotax@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id UAA19561 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:11:41 +0100 Message-Id: <200001121911.UAA19561@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: MC6803U4 info... To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 12 Jan 100 20:11:41 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi I'm in the process of reverse-engineering a Weber/Marelli ECU (IAW048/01) and i need to clarify some things about the CPU. Does anyone know the difference between the 6803C and the 6803U4? After digging on the net i have found out that the 6803U4 has an additional 64 bytes of onboard RAM at 0x40-0x7f. But i suspect there is some other differences, what about timer capabilities, there is a new SFR at 0x18 that's supposedly a timer control register, anyone know the specs. for that register? If anyone has any additional information then please inform me! Some of my findings can be viewed at: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~rotax/ BR Daniel Henriksson rotax@ludd.luth.se From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:10:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10377 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:51 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10374 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:50 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-30.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.185]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0CNAm107718 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <011001bf5d53$3bdd70a0$f20ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <20000112152439.27419.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17:Knock sensor, etc. Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:17:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Thanks Bruce, | I had not thought about noise contribution from mech | valvetrain. And of course, IGOR will allow some very | accurate knock detection, but I didn't think it was | available yet. IGOR, no, but SAAB's been using it for years. | Here's a Q, do you know how/if GM systems handle false | KS trigger, vs RPM? Nope they don't handle vs rpm, 800 rpm, 2000, 4000, 8000, if it's set for 4,000Hz, and hears the right sound off goes the timing. I've seen cars set 12d retard wile cranking. That's also why I consider acoustic sensors as a joke, and not to be trused. | For example, say an ECU has a KS sensitive to say, | 4,000 Hz. Frequency of bormal internal noise from the | motor varies with RPM, so at some RPM, it will also | create 4,000 Hz noise that would trigger the KS. Does | the code ignore KS at certain RPM? See above. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:24:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10492 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:24:16 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10489 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:24:14 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-30.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.185]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0CNOD109569 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:24:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <011801bf5d55$1b71a820$f20ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <387BF6DF.C641493F@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:31:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu What you call AE Enrichment noise might be trace detonation (gm uses a "burst knock table to cover this situation in some applications) Grumpy | Take a look at | http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm | | This shows some of the work that I have done on recording and analyzing | the signal off of an Eagle Talon knock sensor. The sensor does not | seem to be "tuned" that I can tell, it's just a wide band microphone. | I am assuming that the GM sensors are very similar. | | The Talon uses a fancy filter circuit inside the ECU to detect knock, | but I have never been able to figure out exactly what it looks for | in the signal. | | -Bill | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:35:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10708 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:35:59 -0500 Received: from mail.houston.rr.com (sm1.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.54]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10705 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:35:58 -0500 Received: from kbklaptop ([24.27.111.221]) by mail.houston.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:36:27 -0600 From: "Ken Kelly" To: Subject: Injector Sizes for CrossFire Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:32:52 -0600 Message-ID: <000401bf5d55$58c6f360$0f0a0a0a@kbklaptop.randalls> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001122000.PAA07475@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know what the difference between the two actually is? Or the reasoning why they had two different sized injectors? Ken Kelly (#2) From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:38:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10773 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:38:33 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10769 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:38:31 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-30.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.185]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0CNcR114248 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:38:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <017e01bf5d57$1a0f2000$f20ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <000401bf5d55$58c6f360$0f0a0a0a@kbklaptop.randalls> Subject: Re: Injector Sizes for CrossFire Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:45:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu As I recall 4-5 lbs/hr.. The diference in size was due to the fact one ran with the fuel pressure regulator, andf the other with the accumulator. Grumpy | Does anyone know what the difference between the two actually is? Or the | reasoning why they had two different sized injectors? | Ken Kelly (#2) From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:49:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11014 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:49:18 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11009 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:49:16 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-30.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.185]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0CNnF108822 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:49:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <019201bf5d58$9ab32480$f20ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001110832.AA25363080@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:56:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. | I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff | is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. | I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. | So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for | from the trigger wheel? Crank, and cam sensor wire into the DIS module. On some PCMs the sensor goes directly to the pcm. So an ecm doesn't look for a signal from the sensor Now the input to the DIS varies, by type some are Hall effect sensors, and some are reluctor. So you gotta figure out what ya got, and work from there. Grumpy | Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, | or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? Your going to need to go from the coil trigger output of the crank to the sensor input to the DIS, and again it varies. | If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax | is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. | I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. | Dopey From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 23:25:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15120 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:25:53 -0500 Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15117 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:25:51 -0500 Received: from [38.169.150.2] (helo=seairon.buzzpolitics.com) by relay3.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 128bpW-0000OI-00; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:25:50 -0500 Received: from SEAVIRUS by seairon.buzzpolitics.com via smtpd (for relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) with SMTP; 12 Jan 2000 20:27:17 UT Received: from 10.1.100.94 by seavirus.perkinscoie.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:26:21 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by seacon.perkinscoie.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:26:22 -0800 Message-ID: <83FCF6B73CC1D211BAA900A0C92C03380547C895@sea-mail> From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: injector questions - sleepless in Seattle Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:26:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ok, got some injector questions. I have an 1800 cc, (1798) motor, (77 mgb) 90 hp, saimsed intake ports, I think the stromberg cd was something like 200 cfm but I might be wrong. I am going to put 2 injectors in it. and an air mass sensor. the donor efi car used 4 bosch injectors for 2300 cc according to the data I could find on the web, the motor (b230f), used a 0 280 150 762 bosch injector. these had fuel rails, and are listed as 214 cc per minute, or 21 lbs per hour. and a chart at www.wolfems.com.au/injector_flow_rates.htm tells me that these injectors were good for 42.8 hp each. I can't remember the actual rail pressure in their natural environment, (86 240dl). standard bosch jet-jh so if I scale it up a bit , and for argument's sake use the volume of the injectors that I have. (they were all batch fired btw). I would then need to get 2 injectors that were low impedance, to make them look like bosch injectors to the ecm, and they would have to have a flow rate of 428 cc per minute or 42 lbs per hour. question 1 : does this math sound correct ? I wonder about this because they were batch fired. this means that they were fired when there was no benefit to do so, the expended fuel must of gone somewhere. I can't work out the math in my head to take into account the batch-fired effect. ok well, I am going to use the msd epoxy injector mounts, I think that these are made for GM mounting specs. or am I misreading their fuel injection catalog incorrectly ? it seems that you can use their injectors to replace gm injectors, if that's the case I'm assuming a gm injector will fit in their mount. no one that I can tell, makes mounts like this for bosch injectors, besides the bosch injectors used a fuel rail anyway, I really liked the flexible fuel hose hardware from msd. the angles of the injectors would preclude a normal fuel rail. I can't find an msd injector that does 42 lbs per hour. they jump from 34 to 50 lb/hr. where would I find a gm parts list that rates stock gm injectors by flow volume/impedance ? question 2: or am I digging a hole for myself ? the ecm I have is going to think it's talking to a specific environment, i.e. stock rail pressure, combined flow volume etc. as usual thanks for your expert advice. Ted NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 00:02:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15750 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:02:36 -0500 Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA15747 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:02:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:02:35 -0500 From: brucep@ptd.net Message-Id: <200001130502.AAA15747@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 9976 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2000 05:02:10 -0000 Received: from brucepal.msns.eph.ptd.net (24.229.59.10) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 13 Jan 2000 05:02:10 -0000 X-Sender: brucep@mail.ptdprolog.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: knock sensor/dyno Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks for all the great things to think about! I like the microphone/software idea, this would allow me to analyze a dyno run. Not just for knock but what ever else I could see or figureout. More data to look at. Unfortunatly, I can't at this time put data acquisition on the dyno due to lack of $$$'s so I am looking for "cheap" ways of doing things. Sorry for the lack of Fuel injection content but it did spark some thoughts. "the other Bruce" From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 03:42:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA17678 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:42:07 -0500 Received: from spartacus.hula.net (spartacus.hula.net [206.127.232.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17675 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:42:05 -0500 Received: from amp07-84-70-67.pixi.com (amp07-84-70-67.pixi.com [209.84.70.67]) by spartacus.hula.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04987 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:37:42 -1000 (HST) Message-ID: <387D756C.711F@hula.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:49:16 -0800 From: Greg Tully X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Turbo motor References: <200001122000.PAA07475@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi I am running the efi332 two layer cpu board and the i/o board in my car. Just doing spark, boost control for the moment. I am picking the signal off of the distributor with the TPU PPWA, and setting advance, retard, and turbo boost. No problems with cpu board yet but still looking.. I am using a map sensor from a mid 80's (chrysler,dodge,plymouth) turbo K car. There are a lot of these cars in the wrecking yards. This is a one atmosphere boost unit. It has a ground wire, 5 volt supply wire and a sense wire. Measured data: Pressure output volts 30" hg .56 15" hg 1.30 0 2.47 5psi 3.25 10psi 4.13 15psi 5.00 Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. So boost and/or timing can be reduced. If the timing is reduced to prevent any detonation, and the boost is left alone. It will generate spectacular boost numbers and it runs strong. But it runs about the same when I reduce the timing a little bit and limit the boost. So it looks like there are two different ways to get to the same point. So what is the best way to tune a turbocharger motor? I would guess reducing the timing a little, and then limit boost to prevent detonation... Also I have noticed that GM spark rpm/load tables arrays seem to be 16 bytes wide, even when its a Grand National turbo motor. It seems like that if its a one atmosphere map unit the table should be 32 bytes wide for the same resolution. Any comments on this one? My car is a 4 cyl turbocharger Saab, dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, with intercooler.. not bad for a stock 1989 car. Its not a performance car, its heavy and the transmission is weak, but it is an interesting platform to fool around with. Aloha Greg From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 09:23:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21596 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:04 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21593 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:03 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-11.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.64]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0DEN1f21701 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003b01bf5dd2$ac4ff5e0$400ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001122000.PAA07475@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> <387D756C.711F@hula.net> Subject: Re: Turbo motor Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:29:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. | So boost and/or timing can be reduced. If the timing is reduced to | prevent any detonation, and the boost is left alone. It will generate | spectacular boost numbers and it runs strong. But it runs about the same | when I reduce the timing a little bit and limit the boost. So it looks | like there are two different ways to get to the same point. So what is | the best way to tune a turbocharger motor? I would guess reducing the | timing a little, and then limit boost to prevent detonation... There's never a good reason to burn more fuel then what the engine needs. All the extra carbon has to go somewhere. If you do EGT's AFR and Plug reading they all should point to one being better than another. | Also I have noticed that GM spark rpm/load tables arrays seem to be 16 | bytes wide, even when its a Grand National turbo motor. It seems like | that if its a one atmosphere map unit the table should be 32 bytes wide | for the same resolution. Any comments on this one? Well, they been running the Buicks since 86 with the intercooler, and making good HP. The syclones since 91. I'd say that the resolution is good enough. Ya, might be nicer, but as far as necessary, that's your call. To me 19 would be perfect, @ 500rpm steps. The big isue is running the right MAP so you don't run out of CALIBRATION. If ya run 14 PSI of boost run a 2bar MAP. If you run 18 use a 3 bar MAP. That's how I see things Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 15:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29142 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:45:43 -0500 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA29139 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:45:42 -0500 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id OAA05856; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:45:41 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma005854; Thu, 13 Jan 00 14:44:45 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13645 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:44:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <387E3897.1ED8C3E3@arm.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:41:59 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: 4.97sec, 314 mph Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Got this email from a WWW browser. Not sure exactly what he's trying to build, but it sounds like an interesting project. Please reply to him directly since he's not on the list. --steve TobyTraut@aol.com wrote: > > Sir, > > I wandered across your DIY EFI page tonight, and thought that someone may be > interested in a project I would like to try. > > I own a turbo-jet powered drag car. I have eliminated the stock > hydro-mechanical fuel control, and replaced it with an electronic pressure > control through the stock mechanical injectors. > > I have recently become interested in electronics, and would like to build a > true feedback fuel control, and also get rid of the mechanical overspeed > governer, while also maybe incorporating a data-logger. This is a pretty > overwhelming project for a beginner. > > This car has run the quarter mile in 4.97 seconds, at over 314 mph, and > perhaps it would make an interesting project for an electronic engineering > student. I can't afford to hire someone to do it, but I think I can afford to > pay for materials. > > Perhaps even if someone would just want to design a system, I could try my > hand at assembly. > > If anyone is interested, they can e-mail me at Tobytraut@aol.com. I have > attached a photo of the car, it's not very good, but it is the only one I > have scanned. > > Thank You, > > Toby Ehrmantraut > Odyssey Jet -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 19:49:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:49:08 -0500 Received: from mail.vip.net (mail.vip.net [204.209.212.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA01022 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:49:06 -0500 Received: (qmail 55933 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2000 01:00:27 -0000 Received: from dial78.vip.net (HELO tsltd.com) (204.209.212.204) by mail.vip.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2000 01:00:27 -0000 Message-ID: <387E7279.5FA4B95C@tsltd.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:48:57 -0800 From: Benoit Robert Organization: Tradewind Scientific Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Knock sensor chip from Harris Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (as seen somewhere else) Harris makes (or used to make) a chip called an Engine Knock Signal Processor. The part number is HIP9010 and you can easily get a hold of the data sheets with their Automatic FaxBack system at 407-724-7800. It uses two piezo sensors and switches one for sensing knock and the other to cancel background noise. The chip will subtract the background noise and filter based on the parameters sent to the chip. Hookup is via an SPI bus and you can program reference filter frequency, knock filter frequency and a bunch of other things. I haven't used it but from the data sheet, it looked like pretty comprehensive. Good reading. Regards to all, B.Robert From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 20:32:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01567 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:32:56 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01563 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:32:54 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-4.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.108]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with SMTP id e0E1Wr201749 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:32:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <011001bf5e30$3f1a69c0$6c0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <387E7279.5FA4B95C@tsltd.com> Subject: Re: Knock sensor chip from Harris Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:39:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I tried tracking it down one time, and they had discontinued it, and the there was supposedly one available from France, and never got anywhere with it. If anyone has a lead on this I'd like to hear about it. Course I never have any luck with ICs. Grumpy | (as seen somewhere else) | Harris makes (or used to make) a chip called | an Engine Knock Signal Processor. The part | number is HIP9010 and you can easily get | a hold of the data sheets with their | Automatic FaxBack system at 407-724-7800. | It uses two piezo sensors and switches | one for sensing knock and the other to | cancel background noise. The chip will | subtract the background noise and filter | based on the parameters sent to the chip. | Hookup is via an SPI bus and you can program | reference filter frequency, knock filter | frequency and a bunch of other things. | I haven't used it but from the data sheet, | it looked like pretty comprehensive. Good | reading. | Regards to all, B.Robert From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 14 10:54:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11539 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:23 -0500 Received: from fnal.fnal.gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11536 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:22 -0500 Received: from fnal.gov ([131.225.16.122]) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.2-32 #36665) with ESMTP id <01JKOVFG6RGY000DZI@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:54:21 -0600 CDT Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:07:41 -0500 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Re: DIY_EFI V5 #21, Knock S. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <387F3939.B71BB624@fnal.gov> Organization: fermilab MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <200001141000.FAA07724@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Harris is now Intersil, for the HIP9010/11 knock sensor info go to: www.intersil.com/auto/engine.asp#KNOCK I also found hundreds of the parts on the surplus market. Jim F. From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 15 15:09:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00601 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:09:39 -0500 Received: from web906.mail.yahoo.com (web906.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00598 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:09:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 20708 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Jan 2000 20:09:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000115200937.20707.qmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.6.200.104] by web906.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:09:37 PST Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: MSD fuel injection parts To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Help, I've searched all over the net for MSD fuel injection site, all I can get is the MSD Ignition site, and can't find any FI stuff there. Can someone please email me the URL? (esearch challenged) Carter clshore@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 15 16:43:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01617 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:43:03 -0500 Received: from mail.fwi.com (qmailr@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.144]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01614 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:43:02 -0500 Received: (qmail 16113 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2000 21:43:01 -0000 Received: from decatur-line-12.fwi.com (HELO jrh) (209.84.174.77) by mail.fwi.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2000 21:43:01 -0000 Message-ID: <0bde01bf5fa2$38ec1580$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: References: <200001142000.PAA16240@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: source for larger Viper injectors? Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:48:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know of a source for larger injectors for the Dodge Viper? They use "bottom feed" Siemens injectors (high impedance) and I can't seem to find larger injectors anywhere. The 1996 and newer GTS (1997 and newer RT10) cars seem to have larger injectors than the older cars did but I need bigger still. Thanks, Jason From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 01:27:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA07435 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:27:08 -0500 Received: from rosebay.matra.com.au ([203.18.150.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07432 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:27:03 -0500 Received: from matra.com.au (andyw@ppp24.matra.com.au [203.18.150.54]) by rosebay.matra.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26613 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:34:39 +1100 From: Andy Wyatt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:19:33 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200001132000.PAA27869@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 Preview5 - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Spark timing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu G'day all, I'm fairly new to this news group, I've been lurking for about a week, and I've got a question about ECUs in general. I'm currently building an EFI computer for my 83 Pusar Exa turbo, and have the fuel running great, currently I'm working on spark. Question is: How do most ECUs for turbo cars handle spark timing? My car does not have a MAP sensor as standard, so it could only determine by airflow/rpm. It also doesn't have a throttle position sensor, just a switch which closes when the throttle is fully closed. Do they just have a lookup table (map) as for fuel? Or do they have a certain amount of base timing, then an algorithm to determine centrifugal advance and vacuum advance/boost retard? There is nothing in the Nissan manual about it; all it says is that it runs 15 degrees advance at idle (pretty high, I thought). Would it be less during cranking? Anyone ever mapped ignition timing for a 1.5L turbo engine? Also, is there any advantage of sequential injection over group fire other than the increased atomisation you'd expect from injecting the fuel while the air is flowing through the inlet port? I heard someone tried swapping the injector leads from a sequential injection engine around so they were all wrong, and dynoed it to find there was no difference in power output, just in emissions at idle... Any help would be greatly appreciated Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 09:33:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA11978 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:33:18 -0500 Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11974 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:33:17 -0500 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id j.46.815b55 (3894) for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:32:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46.815b55.25b3308a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:32:42 EST Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #23 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > G'day all, > I'm fairly new to this news group, I've been lurking for about a week, and > I've got a question about ECUs in general. I'm currently building an EFI > computer for my 83 Pusar Exa turbo, and have the fuel running great, > currently I'm working on spark. Greetings Andy, it's great to have you aboard.. There are two ways that the GM turbo car ECMs handle timing. 1. Without using a MAP sensor, they rely on mass air flow & RPM numbers to determine engine load (LV8). in the maf systems, they assume "high air flow" + "low rpm" must mean that the engine is heavily loaded. The chip has a timing table that uses LV8 & RPM lookups. 2. With the MAP sensor system, they use a MAP vs RPM table for the lookups. Each system has its strong / weak points. HTH Mike V . From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 15:37:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16861 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:37:45 -0500 Received: from problem.problem.org (gateway.problem.org [209.47.148.176] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16856 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:37:44 -0500 Received: by problem.problem.org (Smail3.2.0.104 #1) id m129wSZ-00000zC; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:39:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: clive@problem.org (Clive Apps - 510-0020 ) Subject: Vortec 4.3 & 747 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:39:38 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <200001162000.PAA16066@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "DIY_EFI Digest" at Jan 16, 0 03:00:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu anyone ever swapped a 4.3 late model ~@00hp Vortec into a 86 Vintage vehicle with a 727 and 4.3 original what cals di you use in the 747 Thanks Clive From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 15:44:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA17014 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:44:03 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17011 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:44:02 -0500 Received: from 4000cdt (we-24-130-50-234.we.mediaone.net [24.130.50.234]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11432 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000001bf6062$6c8cede0$ea328218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Croughwell" To: References: <200001132000.PAA27869@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Knock on turbo motor. Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:33:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi guys, Been a lurker on the Digest for a while, and decided I'd speak up some. :-) > | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at > | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. I don't know what kind of car you're driving, but I'd be willing to bet you have your EGR disconnected. That will cause knock at certain RPM (depending on car) even under light loads. The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to the intake which cools the fresh charge. Scott From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 16:53:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:53:12 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18016 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:53:09 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-3.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.158]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id QAA13739 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:53:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01a701bf606d$0fb6c040$9e0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001132000.PAA27869@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> <000001bf6062$6c8cede0$ea328218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Knock on turbo motor. Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:00:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Oh that makes sense Grumpy Not | > | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at | > | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. | | I don't know what kind of car you're driving, but I'd be willing to bet you | have your EGR disconnected. That will cause knock at certain RPM (depending | on car) even under light loads. The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust | flow back to the intake which cools the fresh charge. | Scott From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 17:46:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19427 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:46:54 -0500 Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19424 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:46:53 -0500 Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.74.102.91]) by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000116224620.KKXK2478@worldnet.att.net> for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:46:20 +0000 Message-ID: <38824A07.50C31130@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:45:27 -0600 From: William Brennan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: New to the List. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all, I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct on this? I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which chip series might be the best? What books or software hardware etc etc would I need. I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. And if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! Lee From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 18:56:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20456 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:26 -0500 Received: from deimos.idirect.com (deimos.idirect.com [207.136.80.182]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20453 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:24 -0500 Received: from wsherwin (liv3-37.oshawa.idirect.com [216.154.43.212]) by deimos.idirect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07430 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:55:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007501bf6096$79f62a80$582c9ad8@wsherwin> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: Subject: Re: MSD Fuel Injection Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu They do not have a "web presence". You have to call them @ MSD's main phone number, and request their catalogue through the mail. The catalogue is rather thin, but contains a lot of neat stuff. Walt. >Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) >From: Carter Shore >Subject: MSD fuel injection parts > >Help, >I've searched all over the net for MSD fuel injection >site, all I can get is the MSD Ignition site, and >can't find any FI stuff there. >Can someone please email me the URL? > >(esearch challenged) >Carter From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 13:13:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00616 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:13:56 -0500 Received: from mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00613 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:13:54 -0500 Received: from leslie [212.140.219.157] by mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.5.0.R) for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:14:54 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000116144733.0093343c@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:47:33 +0000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Lamda sensor mounting In-Reply-To: <200001161000.FAA09203@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Return-Path: alaw@mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the mixture. Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. Thanks, Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 14:46:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02071 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:46:37 -0500 Received: from pop06.iname.net (pop06.iname.net [165.251.8.76]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02066 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:46:36 -0500 Received: from sarah (231.01-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk [212.159.68.231] (may be forged)) by pop06.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA26612 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:46:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000901bf6123$b34bc460$e7449fd4@sarah> From: "Gareth Jones" To: Subject: Lambda Value Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:47:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I'm new to this game and I'm aiming to start small with a mixture meter, driven by an O2 sensor. I have a lot of information on lambda sensor output values, particularly voltage against lambda value. I know that lambda 1.0 is equivalent to 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. What I really need to know is what lambda values relate to other air/fuel ratios, particularly in the area of 12.5:1 - 13:1. Does anybody have the answers, or can anybody point me in the direction of some relevant web resources? TIA Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 16:22:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04592 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:22:02 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04589 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:22:01 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-43.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.45]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id QAA15996 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:21:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004d01bf6131$e35a4920$2d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <000901bf6123$b34bc460$e7449fd4@sarah> Subject: Re: Lambda Value Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:29:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Been covered a thousand times in the archives. Also, I'd at one time poted some dream voltages there for the gm 1-2 wire sensors. You'll understand the term dream after reading the posts. Grumpy | I'm new to this game and I'm aiming to start small with a mixture meter, | driven by an O2 sensor. I have a lot of information on lambda sensor output | values, particularly voltage against lambda value. I know that lambda 1.0 is | equivalent to 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. What I really need to know is what | lambda values relate to other air/fuel ratios, particularly in the area of | 12.5:1 - 13:1. | Does anybody have the answers, or can anybody point me in the direction of | some relevant web resources? | Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:05:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08362 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:05:42 -0500 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08358 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:05:40 -0500 Received: from amiga3k (p128-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.128]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA00635 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:05:37 +1300 Date: 18 Jan 2000 14:54:53 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting To: "Ade + Lamb Chop" Message-ID: <750.52T2650T8945221parkert@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.6a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: >Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to >the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust >manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the >cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur >to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. I have a mini also, and mine is mounted just after the branches of the exhaust manifold come together. I use a heated sensor and without the heater it doesn't read at idle, or low cruise. With the heater it seems to work at all power outputs though. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:18:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08562 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:16 -0500 Received: from rosebay.matra.com.au ([203.18.150.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08557 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:13 -0500 Received: from matra.com.au (andyw@ppp35.matra.com.au [203.18.150.75]) by rosebay.matra.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14027 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:27:16 +1100 From: Andy Wyatt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:33:49 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200001172000.PAA02462@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 Preview5 - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: Lambda Value MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Regarding Gareth's question about O2 sensors.. I know a very little about EGO sensors, which I learnt from an article in Silicon Chip electronics magazine (in Oz), November 1995. It show a graph of voltage against Lambda for a "typical" sensor. It says with a lambda of 0.94, it will develop a voltage of a bit over 0.9V. The graph isn't very well calibrated, so it ain't very useful, but from what I can tell your typical EGO sensor is only really accurate around stoic. Even then there is hysteresis, which means that the curve you trace out is a different shape when going from rich to lean from the curve going from lean to rich. The graph is VERY steep around stoic point, then it becomes quite flat at lambda values below 0.96 and above 1.05. This is only for a typical EGO sensor, which is only designed to work around stoic, so that EFI cars can keep their emissions down. You can get wideband EGO sensors, which are fairly expensive, from what I hear. If it's any encouragement, though, I've just tuned my ECU by using an EGO sensor which I got from a wrecker (actually it was free, it was on the exhaust manifold of an engine I bought), and though I have no idea of how accurate it is, it seemed to work OK. Have a good one Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:18:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08570 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:19 -0500 Received: from rosebay.matra.com.au ([203.18.150.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08566 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:16 -0500 Received: from matra.com.au (andyw@ppp35.matra.com.au [203.18.150.75]) by rosebay.matra.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14024 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:27:12 +1100 From: Andy Wyatt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:48:57 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200001171000.FAA27428@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 Preview5 - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Regarding William Brennan's idea about building an ECU. > I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my > car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. > I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, > just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems > that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct > on this? Yeah, I s'pose so. If you're talking about PICs, you're probably right. You can get C compilers, Assemblers, Simulators and even BASIC compilers for the PICs off the net somewhere or other. I'm not sure that a PIC will have the processing power you require, though. If you're gonna use a lookup table (fuel map) you'll need a fair bit of ROM. Most of the smaller PICs only have 512 bytes or so. You may be better off using a 68HC11, which has lots of stuff built in, like several A/D channels, timers and so on, which are all useful on EFI ECUs. > I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which > chip series might be the best? You'll need something with EEPROM on it. You can get development boards for the 68HC11 with 32kB of static RAM, and 32kB of EEPROM, and you just connect them to your PC to reload the ROM. > What books or software hardware etc etc would I need. All the stuff I used for my computer was commonly available. It helps if you know your micro inside out, so start off with some projects involving the micro you're going to use, then play with them until you fully understand the micro. Otherwise you'll just need to learn all about the sensors and actuators you're going to use on your engine (ie what voltage the sensors give out under different conditions, how to drive the injectors etc) and of course you'll have to figure out an algorithm to determine how much fuel to inject, and spark timing as well (unless you're going to use the old ignition system..) Most of this you can find out as you go (as I did), provided you are cluey and take measurements. With my EFI conversion (from factory EFI to my own EFI) the way I got a basic idea of fuel maps was to hook up a datalogger to the factory EFI computer, and drive around, and log the duty cycle under various conditions. > I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. A basic understanding of electronics is essential if you're going to build an ECU. A detailed understanding would be very helpful. Even then you'll be continually learning as you discover new things about the bits you're playing with. It's a long project - be warned.. > And if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" > Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI > on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! A TR7 with an EFI 5.2L V8 should go allright... Good luck Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:50:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08849 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:50:36 -0500 Received: from kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (kauri.lincoln.ac.nz [138.75.10.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08845 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:50:33 -0500 Received: from whio.lincoln.ac.nz by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) with ESMTP id <0FOI00KSCFYQ8B@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:52:02 +1300 (NZD) Received: from WHIO/SpoolDir by whio.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.45); Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:50:44 +1300 Received: from SpoolDir by WHIO (Mercury 1.45); Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:50:20 +1300 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:50:09 +1300 From: Simon Quested Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 In-reply-to: <200001171000.FAA27428@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <0FOI00KSDFYQ8B@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> Organization: Lincoln University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to > the intake which cools the fresh charge. How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Either way I'd be very surprised if lack of ERG had anything to do with increased detonation. > Oh that makes sense > Grumpy > Not Positive as ever eh Grumpy =-) From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 00:58:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11338 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:58:46 -0500 Received: from spartacus.hula.net (spartacus.hula.net [206.127.232.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11335 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:58:45 -0500 Received: from amp15-84-69-198.pixi.com (amp15-84-69-198.pixi.com [209.84.69.198]) by spartacus.hula.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA12643 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:54:16 -1000 (HST) Message-ID: <3882BD02.100@hula.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:56:02 -0800 From: janet jensen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Size of (rpm,load) tables References: <200001132000.PAA27869@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks. Good information. I wasn't sure if a bigger table would be beneficial or not. Great to hear from somebody who has been there.. Thanks Greg >Well, they been running the Buicks since 86 with the intercooler, and making >good HP. The syclones since 91. I'd say that the resolution is good >enough. >Ya, might be nicer, but as far as necessary, that's your call. To me 19 >would be perfect, @ 500rpm steps. > The big isue is running the right MAP so you don't run out of >CALIBRATION. >If ya run 14 PSI of boost run a 2bar MAP. If you run 18 use a 3 bar MAP. >That's how I see things >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 05:31:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA14384 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:31:56 -0500 Received: from smartt.com (root@ktk6.smartt.com [209.52.5.253]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA14381 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:31:54 -0500 Received: from lowell (burn-mx09011.smartt.com [209.52.2.180]) by smartt.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id CAA07990 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <016101bf619f$f0295c40$d00234d1@lowell> From: "Lowell Foo" To: References: <200001172000.PAA02462@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: lambda sensors Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:35:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu .85 LA would be 12.5:1 and .89 LA would be 13:1. With a heated lambda sensor I don't think placement matters at all. I tried running 2 Bosch LSM-11 sensors on my Talon, 1 in the stock location just after the turbo and one in the tailpipe. The stock sensor is read by the cars Motec ECU and the tailpipe sensor by a Fueltronics handheld. The readings agreed within 1% on a sensor rated for 1.5% accuracy. Also as far as I know you cannot just read voltage off a lambda sensor because of EGT compensation but I've never tried it. From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 10:41:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17764 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:41:10 -0500 Received: from mail2.ev1.net ([207.218.192.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17761 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:41:09 -0500 Received: from ev1.net [207.218.213.19] by mail2.ev1.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.04) id AA5837D5008C; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:44:24 CDT Message-ID: <38848991.AB3A506D@ev1.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:41:05 -0600 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: DeathStar Dumpsters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: EGR and knock,was DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 References: <200001181000.FAA13940@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to > > the intake which cools the fresh charge. > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion temperatures lower. To compensate for the reduced speed of combustion, extra timing advance is added by the ecm. If the ecm adds the timing and the egr is not functioning, (this typically occurs at highway cruise speeds) you can get continuous pinging which goes away when you step on the gas. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 13:19:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20948 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:19:28 -0500 Received: from tacobell-bh.tacobell.com (tacobell-bh.tacobell.com [205.227.214.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20944 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:19:26 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tacobell-bh.tacobell.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id KAA15250; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown(168.182.4.130) by tacobell-bh.tacobell.com via smap (4.1) id xma014883; Tue, 18 Jan 00 10:18:26 -0800 Received: by TBCEXCH05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3950B7DD44A0D3119CEA00508B5A2AB122CB1A@TBCEXCH04> From: "Mendell, Richard" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: clive@problem.org Subject: RE: Vortec 4.3 & 747 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Do you mean a 700R4? The 727 is a Mopar tranny and would require an adapter (available from Advance Adapters, if that's really what you need). If you have the 700R4, it's a pretty clean swap. The basic hook up is identical and a donor vehicle should provide all the necessary parts. Remember, even the HO 4.3 Vortec is still TBI, as I recall that most of the '86 installations were as well, and the 700R4 soldiered on with even the HO 4.3 until '93 or '94. If you are dropping in the HO motor though, the tranny will need upgrading to the late 700R4 standards, as the early ones (like '86) were a bit weak. Kits are available to do this. Cheers, Richard P. Mendell '91 GW ("The Yak"...150K...TBI Pending) Long Beach, CA "I never could get the hang of Thursdays." - A. Dent > ---------- > From: clive@problem.org[SMTP:clive@problem.org] > Sent: Sunday, 16 January, 2000 12:39 pm > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Vortec 4.3 & 747 > > > > anyone ever swapped a 4.3 late model ~@00hp Vortec into a 86 Vintage > vehicle with a 727 and 4.3 original > > what cals di you use in the 747 > > Thanks > Clive > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 14:00:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21846 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:00:22 -0500 Received: from tacobell-bh.tacobell.com (tacobell-bh.tacobell.com [205.227.214.66]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21843 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:00:21 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tacobell-bh.tacobell.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id KAA19024; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown(168.182.4.130) by tacobell-bh.tacobell.com via smap (4.1) id xma018244; Tue, 18 Jan 00 10:24:01 -0800 Received: by TBCEXCH05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:23:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3950B7DD44A0D3119CEA00508B5A2AB122CB3F@TBCEXCH04> From: "Mendell, Richard" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: STDBoy@worldnet.att.net Subject: RE: New to the List. Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:23:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can't help you on the Drag car or computer, but EFi for the Rover 8 is easy. Just remember that from the mid-Eighties on, that all Land Rovers featured a EFI on the Rover/Buick 8. Cheers! Richard P. Mendell '91 GW ("The Yak"...150K...EFI Pending) Long Beach, CA "I never could get the hang of Thursdays." - A. Dent > ---------- > From: William Brennan[SMTP:STDBoy@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Sunday, 16 January, 2000 2:45 pm > To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: New to the List. > > Hello all, > I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my > car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. > I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, > just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems > that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct > on this? I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which > chip series might be the best? What books or software hardware etc etc > would I need. I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff > just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. And > if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" > Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI > on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! > > Lee > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 14:57:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22764 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:57:04 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22760 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:57:03 -0500 Received: from 4000cdt (we-24-130-50-234.we.mediaone.net [24.130.50.234]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21033 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:57:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000401bf61ee$315aacc0$ea328218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Croughwell" To: References: <200001181000.FAA13940@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:57:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. Scott From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 15:44:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA24022 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:44:53 -0500 Received: from pop05.iname.net (pop05.iname.net [165.251.8.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24019 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:44:51 -0500 Received: from sarah (110.01-03.quay.dial.plus.net.uk [212.159.72.110] (may be forged)) by pop05.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01097 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:44:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00fe01bf61f4$ffdab120$6e489fd4@sarah> From: "Gareth Jones" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000116144733.0093343c@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:00:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hi, > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > mixture. > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > Thanks, > > Ade > > Hi Ade, I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole LCB. Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 16:19:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24663 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:13 -0500 Received: from relay3-gui.server.ntli.net (relay3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.4.200]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24659 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:11 -0500 Received: from p8-nsv2-cardiff4.tch.dtn.ntl.com ([212.250.68.83] helo=richm) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 12AfvW-0004RT-00 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:12:35 +0000 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: Lambda sensor mounting Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:18:58 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001172000.PAA02462@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ade, I've no experience with minis but I have done the same as you propose with a 2.0 pinto engined Escort and 1.8i Vauxhall Cavalier. I mounted in both cases at the end of the manifold/downpipe (below floor level, using a heated Bosch 4-wire sensor. With the heater powered, the sensor operates right down to idle, with the heater off, the sensor doesn't stay hot enough at idle but is fine under driving conditions. The sensor I used was ex. Rover, and is the same one used throughout the range of 'K' series engines and 'T'/'M' series. (ie, 200's, 400's, 600T, 800 4-cyl.). Vauxhall use a very similar sensor on Motronic (Bosch multipoint) systems; TBi (Multec) applications use a single wire unheated Rochester sensor which needs to be close to the engine to work properly. Hope this helps. Rich. > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:47:33 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Lamda sensor mounting > > Hi, > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > mixture. > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the > sensor? Close to > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > Thanks, > > Ade From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 16:45:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA25237 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:24 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25232 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:19 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas6-cs-49.dial.bright.net [209.143.37.51]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id QAA22972 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <018501bf61fe$4e3a6320$33258fd1@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001181000.FAA13940@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> <000401bf61ee$315aacc0$ea328218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:52:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bring cash. Grumpy | > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this | > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake | > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? | | Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to | cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port | is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the | engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent | at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to | bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. | | Scott | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 19:31:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28196 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:31:46 -0500 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28193 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:31:44 -0500 Received: from amiga3k (p281-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.41]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA09325 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:31:41 +1300 Date: 19 Jan 2000 13:10:43 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Leaded EGO sensor To: "Diy Efi" Message-ID: <498.53T2150T7904737parkert@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.6a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just been discussing EGO sensors with Boris Shapiro . He works for Bosch in Israel and he has this to say about EGO sensors not liking the leaded fuel: >Correct. But... >Bosch lambda sensor catalog number 0258003083 will do. It's been developed >for early Fiat Uno Turbo that ran on leaded fuel. It's got different >construction to other units. You can use it without a worry. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 19:41:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28361 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:41:34 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28358 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:41:33 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas6-cs-49.dial.bright.net [209.143.37.51]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id TAA14823 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:41:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <028201bf6216$ed346620$33258fd1@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <498.53T2150T7904737parkert@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Leaded EGO sensor Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:48:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu O2 sensors and unleaded vary by manufacturer, If you go thru the archives you'll see several instances of folks going for years overseas with their stock gm sensors. On the GN list they have problems killing O2 sensors on unleaded, but the AC/Delco last the longest. I'm sure the 1400+dF EGTs help to kill em as fast as possible. The hole in most stories is that they ignore the fact that many countries still use leaded, and are using O2 sensors. Grumpy | I just been discussing EGO sensors with Boris Shapiro . | He works for Bosch in Israel and he has this to say about EGO sensors not | liking the leaded fuel: | | >Correct. But... | >Bosch lambda sensor catalog number 0258003083 will do. It's been developed | >for early Fiat Uno Turbo that ran on leaded fuel. It's got different | >construction to other units. You can use it without a worry. | | -- | Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz | - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 03:32:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02636 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:32:03 -0500 Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02633 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:32:02 -0500 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a32-0201.dialup.online.no [130.67.71.201]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA04927 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:31:59 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200001190831.JAA04927@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: lamda sensors Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:28:58 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all! To be able to read a car stoiciometry or not , without all the fuss of mounting the lamda sensor I have made myself a 3" 0,30m tube with a set screw in the end to slip over the end of the tailpipe.In the middle there is a welded bung for the sensor .The end of the tube I have bent almost flat ,1cm gap.With a heated sensor it works good , but I have not tested it against front tube mounting. Espen From: "Lowell Foo" > Subject: lambda sensors > > .85 LA would be 12.5:1 and .89 LA would be 13:1. With a heated > lambda sensor I don't think placement matters at all. I tried running > 2 Bosch LSM-11 sensors on my Talon, 1 in the stock location just > after the turbo and one in the tailpipe. The stock sensor is read by > the cars Motec ECU and the tailpipe sensor by a Fueltronics > handheld. The readings agreed within 1% on a sensor rated for > 1.5% accuracy. Also as far as I know you cannot just read voltage > off a lambda sensor because of EGT compensation but I've never > tried it. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 14:46:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12907 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:46:23 -0500 Received: from mail.powertech.no (intentia.powertech.no [195.159.0.220]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12904 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:46:20 -0500 Received: from tmoshuus (s01i30-0365.no.powertech.net [195.159.53.109]) by mail.powertech.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA31876 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:45:54 +0100 Message-ID: <000601bf62b5$dd7ca7c0$6d359fc3@tmoshuus> From: "Torstein Moshuus" To: References: <200001191000.FAA03306@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:46:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: DIY_EFI Digest To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 11:00 AM Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, January 19 2000 Volume 05 : Number 029 > > > > In this issue: > > Re: Lamda sensor mounting > RE: Lambda sensor mounting > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 > Leaded EGO sensor > Re: Leaded EGO sensor > Re: lamda sensors > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:00:39 -0000 > From: "Gareth Jones" > Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting > > > Hi, > > > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > > mixture. > > > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close > to > > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ade > > > > > > Hi Ade, > > I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss > for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue > anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, > MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the > cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to > somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole > LCB. > > Gareth Jones > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:18:58 -0000 > From: "Rich M" > Subject: RE: Lambda sensor mounting > > Ade, > I've no experience with minis but I have done the same as you propose with a > 2.0 pinto engined Escort and 1.8i Vauxhall Cavalier. I mounted in both cases > at the end of the manifold/downpipe (below floor level, using a heated Bosch > 4-wire sensor. With the heater powered, the sensor operates right down to > idle, with the heater off, the sensor doesn't stay hot enough at idle but is > fine under driving conditions. The sensor I used was ex. Rover, and is the > same one used throughout the range of 'K' series engines and 'T'/'M' series. > (ie, 200's, 400's, 600T, 800 4-cyl.). Vauxhall use a very similar sensor on > Motronic (Bosch multipoint) systems; TBi (Multec) applications use a single > wire unheated Rochester sensor which needs to be close to the engine to work > properly. > Hope this helps. > > Rich. > > > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:47:33 +0000 > > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > > Subject: Lamda sensor mounting > > > > Hi, > > > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > > mixture. > > > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the > > sensor? Close to > > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ade > From: Torstein Moshuus 19.Feb.00 tmoshuus@start.no Re: Location of lambda sensor The sensor should be as close to the the exhaust outlet as possible. In case of Al´s Mini I would suspect that he should locate the adaptor as close to the end of the manifold as possible. The sensor does not give reliable readings unless heated to approx. 600 degrees (F). A heated sensor would be less dependent on temperature (of course). Incidentally what kind of instrument are you using in order to measure the very low voltages we are dealing with here ( less than 1 volt and a pretty high impedance looking into the sensor) ? rgrds > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 17:47:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16265 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:32 -0500 Received: from kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (kauri.lincoln.ac.nz [138.75.10.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16260 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:28 -0500 Received: from whio.lincoln.ac.nz by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) with ESMTP id <0FOL007ISU1GYL@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:48:53 +1300 (NZD) Received: from WHIO/SpoolDir by whio.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.47); Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:47:35 +1300 Received: from SpoolDir by WHIO (Mercury 1.47); Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:47:30 +1300 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:47:21 +1300 From: Simon Quested Subject: Knock In-reply-to: <200001182000.PAA22883@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <0FOL007IVU1HYL@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> Organization: Lincoln University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: "Robert W. Hughes" > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion > temperatures lower. How do you add hot and get cold? I'm confused.... > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge > > and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler > than the intake manifold. Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I never would have thought so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It is even legal to remove cats.... From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:01:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17536 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:01:13 -0500 Received: from wolfenet.com (root@smtp1.wolfenet.com [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17533; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:01:12 -0500 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09095; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id QAA13350; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:01:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001200001.QAA13350@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: [ADMIN] Lists are moving! To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (DIY EFI List), efi332@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (EFI332), gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:01:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hopefully, the move will start tomorrow, 5pm EST. There will almost certainly be a disruption/delay in service around that time, so please refrain from posting tomorrow (Jan 20th) afternoon until further notice. Orin. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:03:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17649 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:12 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17646 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:11 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas6-cs-13.dial.bright.net [209.143.37.15]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id TAA29891 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <018e01bf62da$bdebc100$0f258fd1@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001200001.QAA13350@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Lists are moving! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:10:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DTs are already setting in <>... Grumpy | Hopefully, the move will start tomorrow, 5pm EST. | There will almost certainly be a disruption/delay | in service around that time, so please refrain from | posting tomorrow (Jan 20th) afternoon until further notice. | | Orin. | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:14:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18060 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:14:32 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18056; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:14:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:13:50 -0500 Message-Id: <200001191913.AA678560146@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: , Subject: Minimum to run GMECM? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For a basic DIS MAP application what are the minimum inputs that a GMECM is going to need to run? 1)Obviously power,ground, ignition 2)the connections to the DIS which I believe will supply RPM via the crank sensor, other misc power and ground connections. 3) MAP 4) Injector connections 5) TPS? I assume the unit would at least idle without this hooked up? 6) temp? same thing? 7) VSS ? can this be fooled or bypassed since I have no sensor in this application 8) knock? I assmume not required just to make it idle 9) others required? Basically, I am trying to figure out what is the minimum to crank and run angine with a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 and DIS. Since I won't have a complete GM vehicle to tinker with, I will get as much as I can from some donor vehicle. Thanks! Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:20:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18282 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:20:53 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18279 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:20:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:20:12 -0500 Message-Id: <200001191920.AA267256146@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Need an ECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone out there have a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 that you want to sell? >From a 4cyl DIS app would be best, but not required. It could be dead (as a core) or fully functional. If you have 4cyl DIS stuff to go along with it I could buy that as well. Thanks very much, Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:25:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18450 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:05 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18445 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:03 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas6-cs-13.dial.bright.net [209.143.37.15]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id TAA26173 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01c701bf62dd$cc6615c0$0f258fd1@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001191913.AA678560146@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: Minimum to run GMECM? Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:32:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Lets see, from the nature of this question, I'd almost quess that you have a limited amount of efi experience. So you with this limited background want to jump in and redesign what gm has spent millions of dollars on, and install it some other way. OK.. 2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors disconnected negates any benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. Least you might have something that is proper to drive. The archives here and at GMECM have lots of leads on how to do things. Grumpy | For a basic DIS MAP application what are the minimum inputs | that a GMECM is going to need to run? | 1)Obviously power,ground, ignition | 2)the connections to the DIS which I believe will supply RPM | via the crank sensor, other misc power and ground connections. | 3) MAP | 4) Injector connections | 5) TPS? I assume the unit would at least idle without this hooked up? | 6) temp? same thing? | 7) VSS ? can this be fooled or bypassed since I have no sensor in this | application | 8) knock? I assmume not required just to make it idle | 9) others required? | Basically, I am trying to figure out what is the minimum to crank and | run angine with a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 and DIS. Since I won't have a | complete GM vehicle to tinker with, I will get as much as I can from some donor vehicle. | Thanks! | Jim | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:38:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18706 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:38:30 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18703 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:38:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:37:49 -0500 Message-Id: <200001191937.AA1452671482@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Minimum to run GMECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just found Bruces Test bench article. It answered many of the questions. Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated! Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 23:36:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22694 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:36:03 -0500 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22691 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:36:02 -0500 Received: from stevemit (pool0332.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.233.77]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA02488 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:36:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002301bf62ff$4a0e58e0$4de9b3d1@stevemit> From: "Steve" To: References: <200001182000.PAA22883@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #28 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:31:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:57:04 -0800 > From: "Scott Croughwell" > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to > cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port > is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the > engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent > at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to > bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. Well, I have put a thermocouple in the intake manifold and can state the results of what I found. With the EGR not operating and using a cold air intake I was seeing around 125F after the throttle body on a turbocharged and intercooled V6 at light cruise conditions. With EGR operational, as soon as the valve opened under the same conditions the intake manifold temp jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is less a temperature issue than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine tuning of the spark map, you can easily eliminate any detonation you may experience. YMMV Steve From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 08:54:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27828 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:54:01 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27825 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:53:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:53:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200001200853.AA1838481580@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce wrote: >So you with this limited >background want to jump in and redesign what gm has spent millions of >dollars on.. Not at all. The point is NOT to design a ground up system! In fact you are whom suggested I check into the GM's for a BASIC FI conversion application. >2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors disconnected negates any >benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I plan on running several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you mentioned, but I would like to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM run like this, or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some type? Jim Dopey From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 10:00:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28506 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:00:17 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28502 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:00:15 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-27.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.29]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id KAA28869 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:00:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003501bf6358$114e9de0$1d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001200853.AA1838481580@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever reason. Your not going to like it when your done. Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. It is far easier to plan things out once, install it all, and then fine tune something then cob bit by bit together. I'm just trying to save you time/money, I been thru this dozens of times, on+off list. You want to ignore this, fine, least I tried Grumpy | You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I plan on running | several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you mentioned, but I would like to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. | So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM run like this, | or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some type? | Jim | Dopey From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 10:14:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28757 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:14:32 -0500 Received: from mail2.ev1.net ([207.218.192.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28752 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:14:30 -0500 Received: from ev1.net [207.218.209.82] by mail2.ev1.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.04) id A714406200B8; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:17:40 CDT Message-ID: <3887262F.9D9B5E89@ev1.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:13:51 -0600 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: DeathStar Dumpsters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Knock References: <200001201000.FAA26017@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion > > temperatures lower. > > How do you add hot and get cold? > I'm confused.... > > > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge > > > and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool > > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler > > than the intake manifold. and from another note > With EGR operational, as > soon as the valve opened under the same conditions the intake manifold temp > jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is less a temperature issue > than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine tuning of the spark map, > you can easily eliminate any detonation you may experience. This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute the mixture and and result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures which reduces nitrogen oxide formation. The mixture also burns slower and so requires more ignition advance. The exhaust gases are not cooler than the intake, on my car they are hot enough to melt and burn out 60-40 solder in copper piping. > > Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I never would have thought > so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It > is even legal to remove cats.... How about dogs? sorry -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 14:49:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00861 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:49:28 -0500 Received: from mrc.soton.ac.uk (mrc81.mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00858 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:49:26 -0500 Received: from leslie [212.140.221.50] by mrc.soton.ac.uk [152.78.10.81] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.5.0.R) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:51:13 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000119191530.00935a84@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk> X-Sender: lms2@mail.mrc.soton.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:15:30 +0000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 In-Reply-To: <200001191000.FAA03306@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Return-Path: alaw@mrc.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hi Ade, > >I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss >for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue >anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, >MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the >cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to >somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole >LCB. > >Gareth Jones I have just bought a nice maniflow LCB... I am not going to buy another other one! Ade From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 16:50:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02826 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:13 -0500 Received: from taz.info2000.net (IDENT:root@mail.info2000.net [204.144.228.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02822; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:10 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net Received: from george (20717487171.ria.net [207.174.87.171]) by taz.info2000.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16164; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:50:06 -0700 Message-Id: <200001202150.OAA16164@taz.info2000.net> To: gmecm@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:47:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: 7730v2 ecu file X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If anyone is interested, I uploaded a new ecu file to incoming. The ecu file is for use with the 8D code (90-92 Corvett and Camaro). Let me know how it works. It is specifically taylored for use with Winbin and Promedit 6. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:11:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03212 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:14 -0500 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03209 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:10:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200001201710.AA1589445114@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? >You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever >reason. Your not going to like it when your done. >Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the >VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. VSS controls (at least) : Idle air Control Valve. Manual Trans/manual clutch. I only need one Idle speed after warm up. Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. Torque Converter. Manual trans.... Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM doesn't need to do this. Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... sorry I bothered you with it. Jim From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:20:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03295 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:01 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03290 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:19:59 -0500 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas1-cs-27.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.29]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id RAA14030 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:19:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <022501bf6395$7e175b00$1d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001201710.AA1589445114@ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:27:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to answer your questions. Grumpy | Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. | Torque Converter. Manual trans.... | Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one | Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... | Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM | doesn't need to do this. | Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... | sorry I bothered you with it. | Jim From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 16:50:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA13015 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:59 -0800 Received: from jsgpc.mrcday.com (IDENT:root@jsgpc.mrcday.com [206.107.67.73]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA12994 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:48 -0800 From: jsg@jsgpc.mrcday.com Received: (from jsg@localhost) by jsgpc.mrcday.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18917 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:50:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:50:44 -0500 Message-Id: <200001210050.TAA18917@jsgpc.mrcday.com> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: [admin] test 2 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:16:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA13740 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:16:48 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA13736 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:16:42 -0800 Received: from kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (kauri.lincoln.ac.nz [138.75.10.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05441 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:16:39 -0500 Received: from whio.lincoln.ac.nz by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) with ESMTP id <0FON00DI2VM18D@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:18:01 +1300 (NZD) Received: from WHIO/SpoolDir by whio.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.47); Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:16:45 +1300 Received: from SpoolDir by WHIO (Mercury 1.47); Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:16:35 +1300 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:16:16 +1300 From: Simon Quested Subject: Knock In-reply-to: <200001202000.PAA00972@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <0FON00DI3VM18D@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> Organization: Lincoln University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute the mixture and and > result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the exhaust? >> hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It > > is even legal to remove cats.... > How about dogs? sorry So you should be =-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:22:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA13790 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:22:31 -0800 Received: (from orin@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA13783; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:22:26 -0800 From: Orin Message-Id: <200001210122.RAA13783@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: [ADMIN] The Move To: diy_efi, efi332, gmecm Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:22:26 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL65 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This lists are currently running off the new server. You might have noticed your filters not working anymore. You will have to change references to esl.eng.ohio-state.edu or efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu to diy-efi.org in your filters, aliases and address books. The new address for subscribe/unsubscribe requests is: majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org We even have an annoying reminder at the bottom of each message at the moment :). If you are on diy_efi-digest, please refrain from switching to diy_efi for a day or two while we make sure everything is running smoothly. Thanks, Your list admins. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:58:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA14555 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:58:52 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA14547 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:58:46 -0800 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (DALEK.ains.net.au [210.9.53.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05973 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:58:39 -0500 Received: from injec.com (cgw219.ains.net.au [210.9.53.219]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20349 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:09:40 +1100 Message-ID: <3885D39E.57F86853@injec.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 02:09:18 +1100 From: Phil Lamovie Organization: Injec Racing Developments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Believe it or not... NOT References: <200001182000.PAA22883@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... is a good question. Unfortunately it's not the right one. How does the introduction of exhaust gas lower the temperature of combustion is a better one. Keep in mind that the engine is a sequence of discrete events. The combustion temp is lower beacause there is less fuel burned and this is achieved by first using exhaust re-entry to help raise the compression. As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position increases the relative compression ratio. The raised compression allows the engine mapper to lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. The Exhaust gas is NOT suddenly cooled. your in the pursuit... phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 18:36:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA14982 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:36:42 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA14978 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:36:36 -0800 Received: from ga.prestige.net (www.ga.prestige.net [208.220.88.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06409 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:36:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:35:48 -0500 Message-Id: <200001202135.AA797114834@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No I wasn't getting pissy. Thank you for all your help already. I really meant it just seems for the relatively simple app I described, trying to disable/fool/recode 80% of the ECM provisions may not be the way to go. SDS or similar may be smarter if it is going to take 2 years to figure out how too undo all that GM spent millions doing. With all the provisions in the GM code (and I realize why they have to do that stuff), it seems like trying to use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. All the complexity GM had to do for a production vehicle simply isn't neccesary for my application. I was trying to find more info on the 168/808 applications you mentioned. I haven't found if any of those where DIS. I could use a speedo cable VSS if the ECM is going to get dumb without it. So: VSS,MAP,Temp,TPS,Ignition maybe that would be enough. I looked at the 165 app on TC, it was a MAF. The 227 app there had a 4 cyl switch and was MAP, but was auto, so I'll look for the manual version. >Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >sorry I bothered you with it. >Jim ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:27:08 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to answer your questions. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 20:38:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA15763 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:17 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA15759 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:11 -0800 Received: from mail1.safari.net (IDENT:qmailr@cheetah.aibusiness.net [206.96.248.28]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA07931 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:38:10 -0500 Received: (qmail 14407 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2000 04:38:07 -0000 Received: from emi.net (208.10.128.2) by relay.aibusiness.net with SMTP; 21 Jan 2000 04:38:07 -0000 Received: from dell (ip77-npbc.aibusiness.net [208.26.84.27]) by emi.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22422 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:27:27 -0500 Message-ID: <004601bf63c9$a95bb840$601e10ac@dell> From: "Mike Pitts" To: Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:40:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In a generic sense, I would think the following are minimum. +12V and Ground...duh ;-) MAP or MAF depending on ECU type TPS Coolant Temp Air Temp Tach signal O2 sensor <- don't skimp on this! Maybe a cam sensor Some controls (like EGR) have circuitry in them which is used by the ECU to detect their existance and proper operation. Without some of these controls, you would probably get several error codes, which may put the ECU in a limp or semi-limp mode. I would definately hook up the SES lamp and have a tool like Diacom available. For the VSS, if the ECU thinks the trans is in gear and sees an RPM of say >3000 for example, it may flag a VSS error code. VSS affects the engine control in some models more than others. If you could just get any kind of decent pulse to the ECU when the vehicle is moving, that would probably be enough for it to determine coasting vs stopped. If it were me, I'd grab everything I could off the donor car, especially the harness. And try to put it all into use, except for the cannister purge and EGR (yeck!). JMO Good luck, -Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 20:48:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA15791 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:48:05 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA15785 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:48:00 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-38.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.142]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id XAA17168 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:47:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <039b01bf63cb$b05a92e0$1d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001182000.PAA22883@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> <3885D39E.57F86853@injec.com> Subject: Re: Believe it or not... NOT Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:55:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence more timing needed. Grumpy | As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly | inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position | increases the relative compression ratio. | The raised compression allows the engine mapper to | lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater | number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 02:09:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA16475 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 02:09:33 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA16471 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 02:09:28 -0800 Received: from elmo.acesag.auburn.edu (elmo.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.20]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10822 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:09:18 -0500 Received: from telly (telly [131.204.46.36]) by elmo.acesag.auburn.edu (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25471 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:09:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:09:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Minimum to run GMECM? In-Reply-To: <200001202350.PAA11509@hektor.valesh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I only need one Idle speed after warm up. Try it without VSS. I did. You'll find that you need a VSS signal for the IAC to reset and give the a proper idle speed. I s'pose you could plug the IAC port totally, but it sure is nice to have fast idle while cold, etc. -greg (maybe I'll just add that to my .sig file...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 05:40:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA16905 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:16 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id FAA16900 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:11 -0800 Received: from web120.yahoomail.com (web120.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.121]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12086 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:40:09 -0500 Received: (qmail 5861 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jan 2000 13:40:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20000121134005.5860.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Received: from [136.1.1.19] by web120.yahoomail.com; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:05 PST Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:05 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >From Roy Spectrics Ltd The sole purpose of EGR is to reduce exhaust emisions, it has a detrimental effect on both engine efficiency and power output. To reduce the heating effect EGR has on the incomming air in the inlet manifold, EGR coolers are being introduced, so basic EGR does not reduce the incomming air temperature !. What it does do is to reduce the rate at which the flame front travels through the mixture during combustion. Hope this helps Roy --- DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 20 2000 > Volume 05 : Number 032 > > > > In this issue: > > re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: Knock > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > See the end of the digest for information on > subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:53:19 -0500 > From: "jtyler" > Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > > Bruce wrote: > > >So you with this limited > >background want to jump in and redesign what gm has > spent millions of >dollars on.. > > Not at all. The point is NOT to design a ground up > system! > In fact you are whom suggested I check into the GM's > for a BASIC > FI conversion application. > > >2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors > disconnected negates any > >benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. > > > You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I > plan on running > several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you > mentioned, but I would like to start with just the > ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. > > So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM > run like this, > or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some > type? > > Jim > Dopey > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > > You want to run the system, in your own > configuration, for what ever reason. > Your not going to like it when your done. > Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads > about deleting the VSS. > The other inputs are all necessary, also. > It is far easier to plan things out once, install it > all, and then fine tune > something then cob bit by bit together. > I'm just trying to save you time/money, I been thru > this dozens of times, > on+off list. > You want to ignore this, fine, least I tried > Grumpy > > | You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I > plan on running > | several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you > mentioned, but I would like > to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if > that would work. > | So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM > run like this, > | or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some > type? > | Jim > | Dopey > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:13:51 -0600 > From: "Robert W. Hughes" > Subject: Re: Knock > > > > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture > and make the combustion > > > temperatures lower. > > > > How do you add hot and get cold? > > I'm confused.... > > > > > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > > > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh > charge.... Or have I got this > > > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't > heating the cool intake charge > > > > and the cold intake charge is causing the > detonation???? > > > > > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the > EGR have had enough time to cool > > > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp > re-entering the intake port is cooler > > > than the intake manifold. > > and from another note > > > With EGR operational, as > > soon as the valve opened under the same conditions > the intake manifold temp > > jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is > less a temperature issue > > than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine > tuning of the spark map, > > you can easily eliminate any detonation you may > experience. > > This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute > the mixture and and > result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures > which reduces nitrogen > oxide formation. The mixture also burns slower and > so requires more > ignition advance. The exhaust gases are not cooler > than the intake, on > my car they are hot enough to melt and burn out > 60-40 solder in copper > piping. > > > > > Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I > never would have thought > > so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, > don't have to here in NZ. It > > is even legal to remove cats.... > How about dogs? sorry > - -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W > Houston, Texas > rwhughe@ev1.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:15:30 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > >Hi Ade, > > > >I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an > LCB Y peice with a boss > >for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't > find the catalogue > >anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big > suppliers MiniSpares, > >MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini > owners just can't believe the > >cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe > even try going directly to > >somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be > cheaper than wrecking a whole > >LCB. > > > >Gareth Jones > > I have just bought a nice maniflow LCB... I am not > going to buy another > other one! > > Ade > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to > "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is > also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" > in the command > above with "diy_efi". > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 05:49:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA16958 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:49:09 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id FAA16954; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:49:04 -0800 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id HAA03544; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:49:02 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma003542; Fri, 21 Jan 00 07:48:20 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06363; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:48:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <388862E8.DD35D015@arm.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:45:12 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: efi332@diy-efi.org, gmecm@diy-efi.org, diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [ADMIN] The Move References: <200001210122.RAA13783@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A big round of applause for Orin and John on this apparently seamless transition. You may have noticed that the WWW pages are on the new server, www.diy-efi.org. There are lots of broken links right now, I'm getting them fixed as I can. Should look lots better after this weekend. --steve Orin wrote: > > This lists are currently running off the new server. > > You might have noticed your filters not working anymore. > You will have to change references to esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > or efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu to diy-efi.org in your filters, aliases > and address books. > > The new address for subscribe/unsubscribe requests is: > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > We even have an annoying reminder at the bottom of each message > at the moment :). > > If you are on diy_efi-digest, please refrain from switching > to diy_efi for a day or two while we make sure everything > is running smoothly. > > Thanks, > > Your list admins. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from efi332, send "unsubscribe efi332" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 06:23:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA17668 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:23:21 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA17663 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:23:15 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-12.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.65]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id JAA04955 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:23:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00be01bf641c$11d1fea0$410ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <20000121134005.5860.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:30:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No, cause, it's nonsense (the ** part).. EGR reducing the IAT, look at the bottom of an intake with working egr (SBC), note all the coke deposited where the egr runner is. It takes temps of like 350+dF to do that. If your IAT is over 350dF, I hope it's due to alot of boost, other wise ya got problems. Grumpy Please note, this was edited to a resonable lenght. | >From Roy Spectrics Ltd | The sole purpose of EGR is to reduce exhaust emisions, | it has a detrimental effect on both engine efficiency | and power output. | To reduce the heating effect EGR has on the incomming | air in the inlet manifold, EGR coolers are being | introduced, ***so basic EGR does not reduce the incomming | air temperature !***. What it does do is to reduce the | rate at which the flame front travels through the | mixture during combustion. Hope this helps Roy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 07:24:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id HAA18537 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:24:11 -0800 Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id HAA18532 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:24:06 -0800 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id o.cd.10c667b (4318) for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:23:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:23:19 EST Subject: EGR stuff To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org << Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the exhaust? >> Leaning the mixture (via the EGR) would mean adding more O2, but the EGR does not do this. It adds N2, C02 and H20 (vapor) to the airstream of N2 and O2 and HxCx. The correct A/F ratio has been determined (carb or ECU), the EGR just "thins" the mixture. I left the small amout of Argon out as not to confuse the issue. Hope this helps... Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 10:22:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA18980 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:22:30 -0800 Received: from dmzraw1.extranet.tce.com (dmzraw1.extranet.tce.com [157.254.234.131]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA18976 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:22:17 -0800 Received: from smtprelay.tce.com (smtprelay.indy.tce.com [157.254.96.114]) by dmzraw1.extranet.tce.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA29422 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from indyexch1.indy.tce.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtprelay.tce.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06694 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by indyexch1.indy.tce.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:21:11 -0500 Message-ID: <9B9B961DFDDAD21182980008C749075B0217AA9B@indyexch4.indy.tce.com> From: Hunt David To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #34 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:20:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the >exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned >the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the >exhaust? Having worked with oxygen sensors in other applications, it is the excess oxygen that is measured, so lean is less oxygen not excess fuel. The exhaust is just an inert that has little to do with the combustion process except that it has to be heated by the oxidation process. The result is less fuel, less oxygen and cooler PEAK temperatures, thus improved emissions. I believe, but ain't sure, that the exhaust temperature is reduced with an increase in the engine's efficiency. The free oxygen remaining (and sensed) is relatively unchanged. Now I have a question, when a piston is burned, is the excess oxygen reacting with the Aluminum? Or is it something else? >How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... is a good >question. Unfortunately it's not the right one. >If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to >answer your questions. > Grumpy Grumpy, I find your answers quite enlightening and enjoyable, but you too can come off as pissy. Don't take this to heart, but in this format anyone can be misunderstood. Review your first response. In my opinion, we should be expecially accomodating and understanding in a forum such as this. Or are you just upholding your good name, Grumpy. Don't get upset, we all love you. >This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. >The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none >compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), >hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence >more timing needed. >Grumpy Since the spend gas is added after the throttle plate the total gas in the combustion chamber is increased as compared to no recirculation. Thus the "dynamic" pressure (effective compression ratio) is increased. At part throttle the chamber certainly doesn't fill due to the restriction of the throttle and the dynamic compression ratio is quite small, so even a small amount of recirculated gas increases the dynamic compression ratio. It also increases the preignition temperature (promoting better vaporization (mixing)), and provides a (relatively) cooling effect for pockets of "leanness" reducing the possiblity of detonation. REDUCING. That "leanness" might be caused by fuel dropout which means that the oxygen rich, low fuel (lean) areas will also have a lot of recirculation gasses. Win - Win - Win - Win situation, quite ingenous actually. Bama ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 13:49:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA19468 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:49:50 -0800 Received: from e450.mnsi.net (e450.mnsi.net [206.48.122.98]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA19464 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:49:45 -0800 Received: from todd (dyn208-28-61-32.cha.mnsi.net [208.28.61.32]) by e450.mnsi.net (8.8.8/waffleiron) with SMTP id QAA17905 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:49:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121165139.0086f100@in.mnsi.net> X-Sender: israels@in.mnsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:51:39 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Todd Israels Subject: Re: Digest V5 #34 Min GM ECM In-Reply-To: <200001211300.FAA16609@hektor.valesh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:35:48 -0500 >From: "jtyler" >Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >No I wasn't getting pissy. Thank you for all your help already. > >I really meant it just seems for the relatively simple >app I described, trying to disable/fool/recode 80% of the ECM >provisions may not be the way to go. SDS or similar may be smarter >if it is going to take 2 years to figure out how too undo all that >GM spent millions doing. > >With all the provisions in the GM code (and I realize why they have to do that stuff), it seems like trying to use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. All the complexity GM had to do for a production vehicle simply isn't neccesary for my application. > >I was trying to find more info on the 168/808 applications you >mentioned. I haven't found if any of those where DIS. > >I could use a speedo cable VSS if the ECM is going to get dumb without it. > >So: > >VSS,MAP,Temp,TPS,Ignition maybe that would be enough. > >I looked at the 165 app on TC, it was a MAF. The 227 app there >had a 4 cyl switch and was MAP, but was auto, so I'll look for the manual version. > > >>Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >>sorry I bothered you with it. > >>Jim > >- ------------------------------ > All that GM complexity could come in handy. I dont recall your aplication but it is my recolection that as sensors error it dissabels that part of the code and runs on a simpler map not affected by the erroring sensor. You dont have to hook all the sensors up but they are there fro a reason. I got a 4cl Fiero to start and run with RPM Vss(needed for start but will keep running if unpluged) and MAP. This was on a scraped car with the clutch out so driveability was not checked. Hopefully someone can help with the details I know are missing, have just started looking at the code in GM ECMs Good Luck Todd Israels ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 14:24:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA19555 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:24:30 -0800 Received: from fnal.fnal.gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA19551 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:24:25 -0800 Received: from fnal.gov ([131.225.16.122]) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.2-32 #36665) with ESMTP id <01JKZ131P43Q000HKG@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:24:05 -0600 CDT Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:36:36 -0500 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Knock S., VE, CR To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-id: <3888CF21.6BBFD03D@fnal.gov> Organization: fermilab MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3888BFE7.F01BC2F@cruzers.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I found some more Knock S. Info in "Automotive Elect Handbook" by Ronald K. Jurgen (McGraw Hill). Author says that knock frequency ranges from 2 to 15 kHz and is given by: "Drapers Equation" Fr = Pmn(C)/pi(B) Pmn = vibration mode constant C = velocity of sound in Cyl. gas B = radius of cylinder He gives an example, that with gas temp of 2000K, velocity C = 900 m/s, and for a 100 mm Dia cylinder the 1st knock harmonic would be 5.75 kHz. So looking at the equation you can see that freq. is proportional to cylinder dia. Using the same constants and Fr = .0575 B you can estimate other size cylinders. He also says that any cyl knock travels through the engine block to the sensor in less than 1 ms. And that the successive cylinders are consecutive in time and are not overlapped. At 6000 RPM they would be 2.5 ms apart. He says Manuf. originally tried to tune the sensor to a particular freq. and that they had a Q factor of about 2. He thinks that they now use a filter in the ECM. This was all referenced to SAE papers 920702, 920808, and 910858 Actually I think that most common KS are similar and if someone wanted to tune the KS response for a particular app, that a simple RLC band pass filter would be sufficient. On another note, I think that an engines compression ratio, both static and effective, and the VE are strictly determined by the mechanical design of the engine. It would be the same if the engine were driven as an air compressor. Its the cylinder pressure curve that changes depending on the characteristics of the intake charge gas mixture, Temp, Ing. Timming and all the other combustion variables. Its also commonly known that lean mixtures can lead to burt pistons and valves. Is that because the excess O2 is burning the metal (cutting torch) while the overall combustion temp. is cooler?? Jim F. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 18:06:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA20746 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:48 -0800 Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA20739 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:41 -0800 Received: from CR929909A ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <20000122020404.DXON13671.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@CR929909A>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf647d$81e596a0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: , References: <200001211300.FAA16609@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: believe iot or not Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:07:59 -0500 Organization: Snyder Enterprises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:55:06 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: Believe it or not... NOT > > This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. > The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none > compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), > hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence > more timing needed. > Grumpy > He's got it down pretty close. Addition of an inert gas allows more complete filling of the cyl with less fuel, yet no leaning of the mixture. Lets say for argument's sake a full charge is one litre. At low load, partial throttle, VE may be throttle limitted to 20or 30%. The A/F mixture is 14:1. CR is 8:1. With a 30% VE effective CR is reduced somewhat - possibly as low as about 3:1. Now, lets add 200cc of inert gas to the cyl. We now have an effective VE of 40 or 50%, raising the effective compression ratio at the same throttle opening, with the same A/F ratio, to closer to 5:1. We get the same power out of the burning fuel - likely even a bit more due to more squeeze. We also expand the inert gas charge due to heating, and a portion of the heat that would normally go out the pipe is absorbed here. This absorption of cyl heat by the inert charge also reduces the cyl temperature to a point where less nitrogen is oxidized, thus reducing NOX emissions. A Miller Cycle engine takes this to extremes, with the engine running for all practicle purposes at close to 100% VE for the majority of it's operating regimen. > > | As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly > | inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position > | increases the relative compression ratio. > | The raised compression allows the engine mapper to > | lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater > | number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 18:06:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA20750 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:53 -0800 Received: from mail.rdc3.on.home.com (ha1.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.68]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA20738 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:41 -0800 Received: from CR929909A ([24.112.22.40]) by mail.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with SMTP id <20000122020404.DXON13671.mail.rdc3.on.home.com@CR929909A>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf647d$81e596a0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Clare Snyder" To: , References: <200001211300.FAA16609@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: believe iot or not Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:07:59 -0500 Organization: Snyder Enterprises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:55:06 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: Believe it or not... NOT > > This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. > The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none > compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), > hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence > more timing needed. > Grumpy > He's got it down pretty close. Addition of an inert gas allows more complete filling of the cyl with less fuel, yet no leaning of the mixture. Lets say for argument's sake a full charge is one litre. At low load, partial throttle, VE may be throttle limitted to 20or 30%. The A/F mixture is 14:1. CR is 8:1. With a 30% VE effective CR is reduced somewhat - possibly as low as about 3:1. Now, lets add 200cc of inert gas to the cyl. We now have an effective VE of 40 or 50%, raising the effective compression ratio at the same throttle opening, with the same A/F ratio, to closer to 5:1. We get the same power out of the burning fuel - likely even a bit more due to more squeeze. We also expand the inert gas charge due to heating, and a portion of the heat that would normally go out the pipe is absorbed here. This absorption of cyl heat by the inert charge also reduces the cyl temperature to a point where less nitrogen is oxidized, thus reducing NOX emissions. A Miller Cycle engine takes this to extremes, with the engine running for all practicle purposes at close to 100% VE for the majority of it's operating regimen. > > | As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly > | inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position > | increases the relative compression ratio. > | The raised compression allows the engine mapper to > | lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater > | number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 18:49:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA20819 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:07 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA20808; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:48:11 -0800 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id UAA05663; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:48:10 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma005661; Fri, 21 Jan 00 20:47:47 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24975; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:47:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3889199A.4FF8E102@arm.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:44:42 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@diy-efi.org, diy_efi , efi_332 Subject: ftp site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org All -- The OLD FTP site is no longer accepting uploads. The new one is, or at least it should be. Make sure that all new uploads go to the new ftp site. The layout is the same, only the address has changed. It's now: ftp.diy-efi.org or ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 21:23:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA21376 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:23:18 -0800 Received: (from orin@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA21371 for diy_efi; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:23:15 -0800 From: Orin Message-Id: <200001220523.VAA21371@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: [ADMIN] Non-digest To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL65 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Go ahead and switch if you are desperate :) You'll have to go through the authorization process to get on diy_efi, so don't unsubscribe from the digest until you get the welcome message. Orin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 03:09:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA22108 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:09:30 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA22104 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:09:25 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-1.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.54]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id GAA06895 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:09:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005701bf64ca$247545e0$360ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001211300.FAA16609@hektor.valesh.com> <000901bf647d$81e596a0$28167018@ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: believe iot or not Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:16:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org | Addition of an inert gas allows more complete filling of the cyl with less | fuel, yet no leaning of the mixture. Lets say for argument's sake a full | charge is one litre. At low load, partial throttle, VE may be throttle | limitted to 20or 30%. The A/F mixture is 14:1. CR is 8:1. | With a 30% VE effective CR is reduced somewhat - possibly as low as about | 3:1. We agree line for line up until the last sentence. Now even with it drop the mention of the CR, and I agree with you. But, I don't see how you can tie CR to VE. The VE is a funstion of tuning, not calculation. You can guess at a VE, but it ain't so, till the tuner says "Done".. | Now, lets add 200cc of inert gas to the cyl. | We now have an effective VE of 40 or 50%, raising the effective compression | ratio at the same throttle opening, with the same A/F ratio, to closer to | 5:1. Did you remove a 200cc amount of air?. What you say here, is just the opposite of what I see happening, again ignoring the mention of CR. | We get the same power out of the burning fuel - likely even a bit more due | to more squeeze. We also expand the inert gas charge due to heating, and a | portion of the heat that would normally go out the pipe is absorbed here. | This absorption of cyl heat by the inert charge also reduces the cyl | temperature to a point where less nitrogen is oxidized, thus reducing NOX | emissions. I've always seen an increase in TPS, when adding EGR. While I haven't done alot of adding of EGR, I've never seen a lowering of TPS, or increase in MPG. Yes, what I generally tinker with is cammed alot more then oem, so self egr'ing is alot more at low speed, and maybe that's a bigger issue then I'd thought. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 06:59:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA23197 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:59:12 -0800 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA23193 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:59:02 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:58:21 -0500 Message-Id: <200001220958.AA3951952046@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A couple questions for anyone who can help: OZ? If you have a 6cyl app that is DIS and the prom has a Cyl select byte, and you reset the cyl number byte to 4. Would it work on a 4 banger? Anyone know for sure? Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 08:09:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA23585 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:09:36 -0800 Received: from problem.problem.org (gateway.problem.org [209.47.148.176] (may be forged)) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA23581 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:09:30 -0800 Received: by problem.problem.org (Smail3.2.0.104 #1) id m12C38K-0000U0C; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:11:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: clive@problem.org (Clive Apps - 510-0020 ) Subject: Re: EGR ?s To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:11:28 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> from "DIY_EFI Digest" at Jan 22, 0 05:00:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org try this URL: www.ag.auburn.edu/users/gparmer/efi/egr.txt Clive ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:04:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA24050 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:04:20 -0800 Received: from server.basnmo.tel.gte.com ([143.91.247.96]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA24046 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:04:15 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net ([192.168.1.23]) by server.basnmo.tel.gte.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:02:47 -0600 Message-ID: <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:02:02 -0600 From: Gabe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Holley Projection 2D References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello everyone, My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and purchased it. He currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after much "tuning" runs fairly acceptably. What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? Is the newer 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it would be worth swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true engine load sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. Thanks Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:13:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA24094 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:13:41 -0800 Received: from ga.prestige.net (dns2.prestige.net [208.220.88.11] (may be forged)) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA24090 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:13:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:12:56 -0500 Message-Id: <200001221312.AA4212392578@ga.prestige.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "jtyler" To: Subject: Re: GM crank reluctor X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anyone know of a specific 4 or 6 cylinder GM engine (by year/model) that has a 7 notch "slip on" crank reluctor. Some are machined into the crank, but some photos I have seen show a "slip on style" up near the crank pulley. Problem is they don't tell me year model. I need one. Thanks Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:30:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA24167 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:30:08 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA24163 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:30:03 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-36.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.191]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id NAA05968 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:30:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007501bf6507$b6fd6720$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:37:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly Grumpy | Hello everyone, | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and purchased it. He | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after much "tuning" | runs fairly acceptably. | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? Is the newer | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it would be worth | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true engine load | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. | Thanks | Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:48:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA24201 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:48:31 -0800 Received: from server.basnmo.tel.gte.com ([143.91.247.96]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA24197 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:48:25 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net ([192.168.1.23]) by server.basnmo.tel.gte.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:46:58 -0600 Message-ID: <3889FAF5.9A995086@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:46:13 -0600 From: Gabe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> <007501bf6507$b6fd6720$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that needs the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC in the Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler unit?). I guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I think the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short haul though... Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could as my uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. Thanks Gabe Bruce Plecan wrote: > I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly > Grumpy > > | Hello everyone, > | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and > purchased it. He > | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after > much "tuning" > | runs fairly acceptably. > | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? > Is the newer > | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it > would be worth > | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true > engine load > | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. > | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. > | Thanks > | Gabe > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 11:08:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA24320 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:08:32 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA24316 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:08:25 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-36.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.191]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id OAA13302 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:08:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00de01bf650d$12c8e840$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> <007501bf6507$b6fd6720$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> <3889FAF5.9A995086@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:15:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org | I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my | stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that needs | the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC in the | Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler unit?). I | guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I think | the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do you really need?. | I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short haul | though... Ya, but why do things twice?.. Sorry but I'm getting to old to want to spend my time doing things over. In a long run cheaper to do it right (?) the first time. | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could as my | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... Grumpy | | Thanks | Gabe | | Bruce Plecan wrote: | | > I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get | > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some | > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. | > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell | > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly | > Grumpy | > | > | Hello everyone, | > | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and | > purchased it. He | > | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after | > much "tuning" | > | runs fairly acceptably. | > | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? | > Is the newer | > | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it | > would be worth | > | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true | > engine load | > | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. | > | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. | > | Thanks | > | Gabe | > | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 11:39:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA24382 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:39:52 -0800 Received: from server.basnmo.tel.gte.com ([143.91.247.96]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA24378 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:39:47 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net ([192.168.1.23]) by server.basnmo.tel.gte.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:38:19 -0600 Message-ID: <388A06FD.A0A0BEB9@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:37:33 -0600 From: Gabe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> <007501bf6507$b6fd6720$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> <3889FAF5.9A995086@earthlink.net> <00de01bf650d$12c8e840$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bruce Plecan wrote: > | I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my > | stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that > needs > | the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC > in the > | Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler > unit?). I > | guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I > think > | the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? > > 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 > would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So > part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors > on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do > you really need?. I guess I should have clarified, my uncle has a 383 w/the 2bbl unit with the 85lb/h. My stepfather has the 4bbl unit with unknown injectors sizes. > | I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short > haul > | though... > > Ya, but why do things twice?.. Sorry but I'm getting to old to want to > spend my time doing things over. In a long run cheaper to do it right (?) > the first time. Yes, you're probably right. Actually, I am going to as my uncle if he would rather do a TPI setup or modify his TB setup, both options using GMECM's (he likes the idea of being able to get a replacement ECU at a parts store if one grenades on a road trip). I have just been a little gun-shy about working on someone else's stuff when I have had so much trouble with my own TPI conversion. I just had lots of little stuff come up, I guess that's to be expected when you get an '85 model. The (I believe to be) bad 85 ECM was most of my problem, along with partially clogged injectors, bad intake manifold gasket, MAF troubles, bad connections on the old harness, and a million other things I am forgetting. I have converted my setup to a 1227165 and an '89 calibration now and things are much better. BTW does anyone have a .ald file for Carbytes for this cal???? > > | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could > as my > | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. > > The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. > The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... > Grumpy Good info so far, Thanks.... Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 12:01:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA24524 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:01:47 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA24520 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:01:40 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas4-cs-36.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.191]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id PAA20250 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:01:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013101bf6514$83197c20$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> <3889F09A.5F872400@earthlink.net> <007501bf6507$b6fd6720$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> <3889FAF5.9A995086@earthlink.net> <00de01bf650d$12c8e840$bf0ac9d8@v1b1k1> <388A06FD.A0A0BEB9@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:08:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org | > 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 | > would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So | > part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors | > on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do | > you really need?. | I guess I should have clarified, my uncle has a 383 w/the 2bbl unit with the | 85lb/h. | My stepfather has the 4bbl unit with unknown injectors sizes. The 4 barrels come 65. 75, or 85 as I recall. The late BBC come with 80-5 and the early with 90-5 injectors. Need to ask/look in archives for what years thou. | Yes, you're probably right. Actually, I am going to as my uncle if he would | rather do a TPI setup or modify his TB setup, both options using GMECM's (he | likes the idea of being able to get a replacement ECU at a parts store if one | grenades on a road trip). I have just been a little gun-shy about working on | someone else's stuff when I have had so much trouble with my own TPI | conversion. I just had lots of little stuff come up, I guess that's to be | expected when you get an '85 model. The (I believe to be) bad 85 ECM was most | of my problem, along with partially clogged injectors, bad intake manifold | gasket, MAF troubles, bad connections on the old harness, and a million other | things I am forgetting. We all do the first couple times, gets better thou. | I have converted my setup to a 1227165 and an '89 calibration now and things are | much better. | BTW does anyone have a .ald file for Carbytes for this cal???? > | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could | > as my | > | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. | > The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. | > The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... | > Grumpy | Good info so far, Thanks.... | Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 04:00:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA04390 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:00:21 -0800 Received: from mail.terraglyph.com (mail.terraglyph.com [208.227.72.242]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA04386 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:00:16 -0800 Received: from terraglyph.com (216.50.37.67 [216.50.37.67]) by mail.terraglyph.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CQFZ69GW; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:52:07 -0600 Message-ID: <388C3F87.6A242D1B@terraglyph.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:03:19 -0500 From: Rex Weatherford Organization: Terraglyph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: GM crank reluctor References: <200001221312.AA4212392578@ga.prestige.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org jtyler wrote: > > Anyone know of a specific 4 or 6 cylinder GM engine (by year/model) that has a 7 notch "slip on" crank reluctor. Some are machined into the crank, but some photos I have seen show a "slip on style" up near the crank pulley. Problem is they don't tell me year model. I need one. > > Thanks > Jim > I have been a lurker for about a week, but I may have a place for you to look.... The Quad4 engines have a 7X ignition signal that I assume comes from the crank position sensor. I have no idea if it will "slip off" or if it is machined in. I also know there is a difference between the early Quad's and the later Quad crank. I think they moved the sensor or reluctor wheel by 15 degrees.... I'm a very green newbie so be nice... ;^) Rex Weatherford 92 Beretta GTZ 2.3L DOHC Quad4 15.531 @ 91.28 mph (stock) http://www.beretta.net http://www.mindspring.com/~rweatherford/rexw/rexhome.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 05:08:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA04526 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:08:37 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id FAA04518 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:08:30 -0800 Received: from willamette.cbn.net.id (willamette.cbn.net.id [202.158.3.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18076 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:08:27 -0500 Received: (qmail 88606 invoked by uid 1016); 24 Jan 2000 20:08:44 +0700 Received: from unknown (HELO develpc) (202.158.28.144) by willamette.cbn.net.id with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 20:08:44 +0700 Message-ID: <004701bf666b$bd236310$14010a0a@develpc> From: "dD" To: Subject: test Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:05:50 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org test ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 05:17:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA04624 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:17:10 -0800 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id FAA04619 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:17:05 -0800 Received: from cruzers.com (stanley-62.cruzers.com [209.165.194.62]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03940 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:16:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388C50E7.DD26B388@cruzers.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:17:35 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org "jtyler" wrote: > If you have a 6cyl app that is DIS and the prom has a Cyl select byte, and you reset the cyl number byte to 4. Would it work on a > 4 banger? > Anyone know for sure? Theory is: The hardware also needs to know the number of cylinders in a port injected application. I've never seen any code that reads the cylinder select byte and writes it into an output port. Thus, the MEMCAL likely sets the number of cylinders (and PFI vs TBI modes.) > Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) The only '165 4cyl applications are: 1987-91 S10 2.5, 1986 (only!) J-body 2.0 w/ MT (only!), and possibly some 1988-89 Isuzus. You get to look up which of these are DIS. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 06:24:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA04991 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:24:16 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA04987 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:24:11 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-45.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.98]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id JAA29263 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:24:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00b201bf6677$b5c214c0$620ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <388C50E7.DD26B388@cruzers.com> Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:31:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The 86 in my book just shows vin J and it's dissy. The 2.5 as far as I know are dissy also. BTW, these others are single TBI, not TPI......... Grumpy | > Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) | The only '165 4cyl applications are: 1987-91 S10 2.5, 1986 (only!) | J-body 2.0 w/ MT (only!), and possibly some 1988-89 Isuzus. You get to | look up which of these are DIS. | | -- | Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com | Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 09:10:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA05791 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:10:10 -0800 Received: from medusa.mminternet.com (IDENT:root@medusa.mminternet.com [207.175.72.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA05787 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:10:05 -0800 Received: from celeron (adsl-gte-la-216-86-197-173.mminternet.com [216.86.197.173]) by medusa.mminternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA27806 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:10:45 -0800 From: Chris Serrano To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: ford 3.8 v-6 DIS Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:11:20 -0800 Message-ID: References: <200001221300.FAA22310@hektor.valesh.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Can anyone tell me where to find out what years ford used DIS ignition on the 3.8 v-6 and what cars it was in? thanks... Sometimes I like the weather in Long Beach, CA. If mail bounces, please retry! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 17:57:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA09555 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:57:17 -0800 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA09550 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:57:11 -0800 Received: from [206.168.145.220] (user27.cmn.net [206.168.145.220]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA25246 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:50:03 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:58:26 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: TEST Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 18:03:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA09813 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:03:13 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA09806 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:03:04 -0800 Received: from syd-mail-01.national.net.au (syd-mail-01.national.net.au [202.46.32.7]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27348 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:03:00 -0500 Received: from tony ([202.46.41.113]) by syd-mail-01.national.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17167 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:03:36 +1100 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000125130404.006ca2b0@mail.national.net.au> X-Sender: nat01384@mail.national.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:04:04 +1100 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: anthony schmidt Subject: Delco, coil on plug Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Does anyone know of a delco engine management system that runs 4 or 8 cyl with multicoil. We are looking at fitting this system to a late model 4cyl BMW. Thanks for your time. Anthony Schmidt ALS Performance Sydney Australia anthony@alsperf.com.au Phone 02 9798 6511 Fax 02 9798 9565 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 18:19:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA10356 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:19:00 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb2.bright.net [205.212.123.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA10351 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:18:54 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas2-cs-24.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.77]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id VAA06602 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:18:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <023f01bf66db$8d9b4f20$4d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000125130404.006ca2b0@mail.national.net.au> Subject: Re: Delco, coil on plug Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:26:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Starting in like 99 on the LS1 engine series, called smart coils, about $40 (good guy price) USA each. Takes special coil wires. Check the archives was some limited data here or at the gmecm archives Grumpy | Does anyone know of a delco engine management system | that runs 4 or 8 cyl with multicoil. We are looking at | fitting this system to a late model 4cyl BMW. | | Thanks for your time. | | Anthony Schmidt | ALS Performance | Sydney Australia | anthony@alsperf.com.au | Phone 02 9798 6511 | Fax 02 9798 9565 | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 21:33:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA13566 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:33:25 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA13562 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:33:19 -0800 Received: from ix2.sinectis.com.ar (IDENT:root@ix2.sinectis.com.ar [200.16.183.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA29951 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:33:14 -0500 Received: from polaca2 (modem53-tc2.sinectis.com.ar [216.244.202.53]) by ix2.sinectis.com.ar (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA09297 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 02:35:18 -0300 Message-ID: <008101bf66f6$4b8ec920$81818181@polaca2> From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" To: Subject: Alfa 33 16 Valves Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 02:37:35 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, Do anyone know the entry points of the alfa 33 16 valves motronic EPROM? Regards, Martin -----Mensaje original----- De: DIY_EFI Digest Para: DIY_EFI-Digest@lists.diy-efi.org Fecha: Jueves 20 de Enero de 2000 22:37 Asunto: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #33 > >DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 20 2000 Volume 05 : Number 033 > > > >In this issue: > > 7730v2 ecu file > re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > [admin] test diy_efi@esl 1 > >See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:47:17 -0700 >From: cwagner@info2000.net >Subject: 7730v2 ecu file > >If anyone is interested, I uploaded a new ecu file to incoming. The >ecu file is for use with the 8D code (90-92 Corvett and Camaro). >Let me know how it works. It is specifically taylored for use with >Winbin and Promedit 6. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:10:31 -0500 >From: "jtyler" >Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 >>From: "Bruce Plecan" >>Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >>You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever >reason. Your not going to like it when your done. >>Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the >VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. > >VSS controls (at least) : > >Idle air Control Valve. Manual Trans/manual clutch. I only need one Idle speed after warm up. > >Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. >Torque Converter. Manual trans.... >Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one >Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... >Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM > doesn't need to do this. > >Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >sorry I bothered you with it. > >Jim > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:27:08 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. >If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to >answer your questions. >Grumpy > >| Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. >| Torque Converter. Manual trans.... >| Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one >| Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... >| Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM >| doesn't need to do this. >| Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >| sorry I bothered you with it. >| Jim > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:43:58 -0500 >From: jsg@jsgpc.mrcday.com >Subject: [admin] test diy_efi@esl 1 > >- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@list.diy-efi.org > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #33 >**************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 22:52:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA14465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:53 -0800 Received: (from orin@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA14456 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:47 -0800 From: Orin Message-Id: <200001250652.WAA14456@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: Delco, coil on plug In-Reply-To: <023f01bf66db$8d9b4f20$4d0ac9d8@v1b1k1> from Bruce Plecan at "Jan 24, 2000 09:26:12 pm" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:47 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL65 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The 'Corvette' coils? I've run my Audi 5000 turbo engine on five of them. Regular Bosch end wires plugged right in! Electronics to drive them is a different matter... Orin. > Starting in like 99 on the LS1 engine series, > called smart coils, about $40 (good guy price) USA each. > Takes special coil wires. > Check the archives was some limited data here or at the gmecm archives > Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 11:04:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA17864 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:08 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb0.bright.net [205.212.123.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA17858; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:02 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-19.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.123]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id OAA29573; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:03:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00c201bf6767$f91a3540$7b0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: , , Subject: Fw: Water injection (tech refs) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:11:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >From another list, just thought some folks might like to get the real info., about H2O injection. Personally, the Harry Ricardo book had enough detail to satisfy me.... Bruce | > If you try to cool compressed air by injecting water, you | > are cooling the intake but displacing oxygen molecules with | > water molecules. Does this actually result in a net | > increase in oxygen for combustion? I would inject the | > water into the intake ports to get liquid water into the | > combustion chamber, not water vapor. | The main purpose of water injection is to avoid detonation, | which allows for more spark advance and/or more boost. But | water injection can also improve volumetric efficiency, so | yes there is actually a net increase in oxygen (up to a | certain rate of water injection, approx 50% to 100% of fuel). | From: | OK, here are my references on water injection: IThere is some really nice water injection data in A. R. Rogowski's | textbook "Elements of Internal Combustion Engines", McGraw-Hill, 1953, | ISBN 07-053575-2, pages 106-109 (unfortunately out of print last time I | checked). He shows 50% improvement in detonation-limited IMEP (basically | torque) at stoichiometry, and 28% under more typical fuel-rich conditions, | using water flow at 50% of fuel flow. He showed that you get about 2/3 of | the benefit using water flow at 25% of fuel flow. It's not clear from the | text, but I think these benefits were from increasing boost. The data is | referenced from Rowe and Ladd, Journal of the SAE volume 54, no. 1, Jan. | 1946, which is more widely available than the textbook. | | SAE paper 690018 "Inlet manifold water injection for control of nitrogen | oxides - theory and experiment", by Nicholls, El-Messiri, and Newhall, | 1969. Mostly part throttle, but does show 12% benefit in max torque with | water flow at 50% of fuel flow (naturally aspirated). [Oops, that was | model results, actual data showed much less benefit.] | | A good history and practical tips are available in "Turbochargers" by Hugh | MacInnes, HPBooks (a division of Price Stern Sloan Inc.), 1984. | | Sir Harry Ricardo did extensive experiments with water injection in the | 1920's, which are described in his textbook "The High-Speed Internal | Combustion Engine", 1958, pages 36-40. He concluded that water injection | enabled a compression ratio increase from 4:1 to 5:1 with very low octane | fuel, for about 10% fuel economy improvement. | | Water injection is rather briefly described in the classic textbook by | Charles F. Taylor "The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice" | (1968, 1985) Volume 2, page 70. He recommends water flow at 50% of fuel | flow. | | There is quite a literature on water injection for piston aircraft engines | from the 1940's, but they are not widely available. Some examples are | Rothrock et al., "The induction of water to the inlet air as a means of | internal cooling in aircraft-engine cylinders", NACA TR 756, 1943; and | Bellman and Evvard "Knock-limited performance of several internal | coolants", NACA TR 812 (ARR), 1945. Note that NACA was the precursor to | NASA. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 11:23:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA18126 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:23:56 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA18122; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:23:49 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-19.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.123]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id OAA16128; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:23:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d801bf676a$bdf35b60$7b0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: , Subject: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:31:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used for initial tuning????. They want $300, for theirs. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 12:07:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA18421 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:07:33 -0800 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA18417 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:07:28 -0800 Received: from [206.168.145.113] (user139.cmn.net [206.168.145.113]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA15883 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:00:14 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody know for sure?? Greg > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 15:30:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA20286 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:30:27 -0800 Received: from elm.cal.metronet.ca (elm.cal.metronet.ca [209.82.19.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA20281 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:30:21 -0800 Received: from gate.mcc.net (floyddmz.mcc.net [209.82.19.1]) by elm.cal.metronet.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-0U10L2S100V35) with SMTP id ca for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:29:44 -0700 Received: by attcanada.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:28:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Peacock, Kenneth" To: "'DIY_EFI-Digest@lists.diy-efi.org'" Subject: Injector Info Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:24:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have a 1988 firebird with the 2.8 MPFI V6 with 5 leaky injectors GM casting # 5235210 Any idea how many LB's per hour these are ? I have a set (8) of 5235211 19lb 305 injectors, possibly a substitute? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 15:42:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA20468 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:37 -0800 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA20463 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:31 -0800 Received: from cruzers.com (stanley-36.cruzers.com [209.165.194.36]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23798 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388E34FF.90161A17@cruzers.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:43:59 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Injector Info References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org "Peacock, Kenneth" wrote: > > I have a 1988 firebird with the 2.8 MPFI V6 with 5 leaky injectors GM > casting # 5235210 > > Any idea how many LB's per hour these are ? Probably 15's. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 16:11:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA21040 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:11:03 -0800 Received: from mail2.ev1.net (smtp.ev1.net [207.218.192.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA21036 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:10:56 -0800 Received: from ev1.net [207.218.233.175] by mail2.ev1.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.04) id AC4F35C0090; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:14:07 CDT Message-ID: <388E3B60.55C74319@ev1.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:10:08 -0600 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: DeathStar Dumpsters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Archives Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There are a pair of files on incoming for now called GM_ECMArchives.zip and GoodDIY_EFIArchives.zip. These are the referenced archives with headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|) removed. There is a separator between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: $Date: date information $Subject: subject information $From: sender -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 18:16:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA22822 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:16:40 -0800 Received: from odin.sinectis.com.ar (IDENT:root@odin.sinectis.com.ar [200.16.183.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA22809 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:16:30 -0800 Received: from polaca2 (modem72-tc5.sinectis.com.ar [216.244.203.72]) by odin.sinectis.com.ar (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA03144 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:16:22 -0300 Message-ID: <004501bf67a3$fabd3fa0$81818181@polaca2> From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" To: Subject: EDIS Coil Pack Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:20:53 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org To the list, How does the "EDIS Coil Pack" work? Thanks Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 19:47:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA24575 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:47:45 -0800 Received: from odin.sinectis.com.ar (IDENT:root@odin.sinectis.com.ar [200.16.183.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA24561 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:47:35 -0800 Received: from polaca2 (modem72-tc5.sinectis.com.ar [216.244.203.72]) by odin.sinectis.com.ar (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA11063 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:47:27 -0300 Message-ID: <005d01bf67b0$b426a600$81818181@polaca2> From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" To: Subject: generic software Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:51:58 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello, I'm wondering if there is in the diy_efi ftp server any free generic software able to show/graph the contents of an EPROM. If somebody knows, thanks in advance Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:05:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA28392 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:05:59 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id GAA28387 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:05:52 -0800 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id IAA17417; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:05:51 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma017415; Wed, 26 Jan 00 08:05:46 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11699 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:05:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <388EFE93.597E90@arm.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:02:59 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Archives References: <388E3B60.55C74319@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Actually I deleted the bad DIYEFI archive and renamed the good one to: DIY_EFIArchives.zip --steve "Robert W. Hughes" wrote: > > There are a pair of files on incoming for now called GM_ECMArchives.zip > and GoodDIY_EFIArchives.zip. These are the referenced archives with > headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|) removed. There is a separator > between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: > $Date: date information > $Subject: subject information > $From: sender > > -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W > Houston, Texas > rwhughe@ev1.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:24:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA28568 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:24:58 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id GAA28564 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:24:52 -0800 Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id IAA17459; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:24:51 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma017457; Wed, 26 Jan 00 08:24:10 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11980 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:24:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <388F02E3.600C44BC@arm.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:21:23 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: generic software References: <005d01bf67b0$b426a600$81818181@polaca2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org winbin, promedit are both available on the ftp site (ftp.diy-efi.org). The catch is you have to tell the software where the tables are in the image. For some ECMs there are .ecu files with this info, for others you have to figure it out. Also look at www.tunercat.com for some shareware. --steve Diego Martin Monteverde wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm wondering if there is in the diy_efi ftp server any free generic > software able to show/graph the contents of an EPROM. > If somebody knows, thanks in advance > > Martin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA28981 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:41:38 -0800 Received: from tums.dii.utk.edu (TUMS.DII.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.22]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA28977 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:41:28 -0800 Received: from larry.cas.utk.edu (LARRY.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.70]) by tums.dii.utk.edu (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA13614 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:41:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:41:27 -0500 (EST) From: J W Hodgson X-Sender: hodgson@larry.cas.utk.edu To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Water Injection In-Reply-To: <200001261300.FAA27870@hektor.valesh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Another great reference on water injection is in Obert's "Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution". He shows basically that the beneficial effect of water injection is to suppress knock and if it is used on an engine that is not knocking it has no beneficial effect (unless it allows more spark timing that results in greater torque). Water injection is very effective in reducing NOx emissions (as is the addition of any diluent). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 07:33:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id HAA29585 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:33:55 -0800 Received: from lasvegas.net (mail.lasvegas.net [207.168.185.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id HAA29578 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:33:47 -0800 Received: from accessworldnet.com (dialup-20.lasvegas.net [207.168.187.20]) by lasvegas.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15077 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:33:42 -0800 Message-ID: <388F12D7.D767939D@accessworldnet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:29:28 -0800 From: Laura & Neil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: water/alcohol injection References: <200001261300.FAA27870@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > | OK, here are my references on water injection: > IThere is some really nice water injection data in A. R. Rogowski's > | textbook "Elements of Internal Combustion Engines", McGraw-Hill, 1953, > | ISBN 07-053575-2, pages 106-109 (unfortunately out of print last time I > | checked). He shows 50% improvement in detonation-limited IMEP (basically > | torque) at stoichiometry, and 28% under more typical fuel-rich conditions, > | using water flow at 50% of fuel flow. He showed that you get about 2/3 of > | the benefit using water flow at 25% of fuel flow. It's not clear from the > | text, but I think these benefits were from increasing boost. The data is > | referenced from Rowe and Ladd, Journal of the SAE volume 54, no. 1, Jan. > | 1946, which is more widely available than the textbook. > | > | SAE paper 690018 "Inlet manifold water injection for control of nitrogen > | oxides - theory and experiment", by Nicholls, El-Messiri, and Newhall, > | 1969. Mostly part throttle, but does show 12% benefit in max torque with > | water flow at 50% of fuel flow (naturally aspirated). [Oops, that was > | model results, actual data showed much less benefit.] > | > | A good history and practical tips are available in "Turbochargers" by Hugh > | MacInnes, HPBooks (a division of Price Stern Sloan Inc.), 1984. > | > | Sir Harry Ricardo did extensive experiments with water injection in the > | 1920's, which are described in his textbook "The High-Speed Internal > | Combustion Engine", 1958, pages 36-40. He concluded that water injection > | enabled a compression ratio increase from 4:1 to 5:1 with very low octane > | fuel, for about 10% fuel economy improvement. > | > | Water injection is rather briefly described in the classic textbook by > | Charles F. Taylor "The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice" > | (1968, 1985) Volume 2, page 70. He recommends water flow at 50% of fuel > | flow. > | > | There is quite a literature on water injection for piston aircraft engines > | from the 1940's, but they are not widely available. Some examples are > | Rothrock et al., "The induction of water to the inlet air as a means of > | internal cooling in aircraft-engine cylinders", NACA TR 756, 1943; and > | Bellman and Evvard "Knock-limited performance of several internal > | coolants", NACA TR 812 (ARR), 1945. Note that NACA was the precursor to > | NASA. > My Father was a radio operator for the Royal Air Force bomber command during WWII. He told me that to get fully loaded Lancaster bombers off the ground from some of the small grass airstrips, they sent the engines throught the gate (overode the max rev limiter) and injected a mixture of water and methanol. He knows nothing about the science behind this, all he knew was it gave a tremendous power boost. Anyone on the list ever heard of this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 07:52:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id HAA29759 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:43 -0800 Received: from external.toyota.com (external.toyota.com [205.180.183.242]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id HAA29755 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:38 -0800 From: Scott_Hay@toyota.com Received: by external.toyota.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.6 (890.1 7-16-1999)) id 88256872.00562153 ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:40:46 -0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: TOYOTA@TMSVEN To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-ID: <08256872.00562072.00@external.toyota.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:17 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39,toyota o2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody know for sure?? Grumpy/Greg The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the sensor, and afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic functions. Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to afr. This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. Scott > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 08:25:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA30322 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:25:56 -0800 Received: from cmn.net (root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA30316 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:25:49 -0800 Received: from [206.168.145.100] (user126.cmn.net [206.168.145.100]) by cmn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA26965 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:18:41 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:27:07 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39,toyota o2 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 >From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) >Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter > >>Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >>sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >>for initial tuning????. >>They want $300, for theirs. >>Grumpy > >Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody >know for sure?? > > >Grumpy/Greg > >The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, >there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. > >The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by >ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the >sensor, and >afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. > >We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the >sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general >thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to >determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic >functions. > >Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to >afr. > >This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. > >Scott I suspect that Frank Parker is right. The NTK sensors started out life with seven wires, went to six, then to five. Sounds like this may well be a four wire iteration of it that Toyota is using. If so, the Greddy meter might be a pretty good deal indeed. Greg >> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 09:05:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA31223 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:05:16 -0800 Received: from lstc1.Linnstate.edu (lstc1.linnstate.edu [207.160.145.125]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA31217 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:05:09 -0800 From: Brandon@linnstate.edu Received: by lstc1.linnstate.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:05:07 -0600 Message-ID: To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:05:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have seen several articles over the years about water injection for high compression engine running on low octane street gas, and I believe methanol alcohol mixed with water gives better results. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39

I have seen several articles over the years about = water injection for high compression engine running on low octane = street gas, and I believe methanol alcohol mixed with water gives = better results.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 09:52:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA31965 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:52:12 -0800 Received: from mail.terraglyph.com (mail.terraglyph.com [208.227.72.242]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA31960 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:52:04 -0800 Received: from terraglyph.com (216.50.37.67 [216.50.37.67]) by mail.terraglyph.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id DWV9ST6T; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:43:48 -0600 Message-ID: <388F34FC.3D46F85E@terraglyph.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:55:08 -0500 From: Rex Weatherford Organization: Terraglyph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Dave Morrills O2 meter? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few questions. What is the LM3914? It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that true? How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values between .100v and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means anything. Correct? My car is a Beretta GTZ with Olds Quad4. Will I be able to tell when the car is reach and lean from this? I'd assume so. Thanks... I'm sure I'll have more questions. Rex 92 Beretta GTZ http://www.beretta.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 10:43:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA32720 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:34 -0800 Received: from fnal.fnal.gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.9.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA32716 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:28 -0800 Received: from fnal.gov ([131.225.16.122]) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.2-32 #36665) with ESMTP id <01JL5SU4GTIC000J4L@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:43:22 -0600 CDT Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:51:58 -0500 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Water Inj, T. Retard story To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-id: <388F32F2.45576CAA@fnal.gov> Organization: fermilab MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I had good success with water injection on a turbo Mustang. (79 suck thru the carb model, 2.3L 4cyl). I used a VW W. Washer bottle pressurized by turbo boost to make volume proportional to boost. I exp. with many jets and injected ahead of turbo, Casual driving tips in the turbo and wastes water, so I used an adjustable pressure switch and a solenoid valve to limit consumption. I used W. Washer fluid most of the time, to get more cooling and enrichment from the alcohol content, besides it gets cold here in IL and plain water would freeze. The Mustang originally had a crude OEM electronic timing retard system, two (boost) pressure switches that retarded the timing in steps at about 2 and 6 lb. of boost. I replaced this with a mechanical setup, using a modified compound vacuum advance can from a Ford V8. I could adjust it with it with built in screw, and with an external pressure bleed, same as for the turbo waste gate. It gave smooth, continuous and linear adv. and retard curves. The combo of the water and the timing retard allowed boost to about 15 lb.. I could run with the 5L V8s until they switched to EFI. Heaven forbid if the water tank would run dry though, the engine would knock itself silly before I could off the throttle, never broke it though, ran for 110K, until turbo seals left. Anyone contemplating water injection should look into a water level switch that would limit boost and/or timing.... Jim F. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 10:51:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA00341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:38 -0800 Received: from mtiwmhc10.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc10.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.17]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA00335 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:32 -0800 Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.73.120.45]) by mtiwmhc10.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000126185050.ITYC12791@worldnet.att.net> for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:50:50 +0000 Message-ID: <388F3E3A.728BB2CD@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:34:34 -0800 From: Rich Schimmelbusch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] References: <200001231300.FAA26097@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > .......why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly > Grumpy This thread is timely for me as I want to start this project on my SBC. I sent Howell an e-mail asking about their 4bbl kit, along with a fairly detailed description of my application, and all I got back was "the 4 bbl kit has been discontinued. What year car is this going into."!! So now I have a re-worded query pending with them regarding the 2 bbl kit. Maybe they'd like to sell one of those... It sounds like IAC is the mod required on the Holley TB to make it work? Does anyone know which Holley TB is a candidate for the modification, analog, D, or Di, or is there a difference? Nothing a competent machinist couldn't handle, right? Can everything else remain stock? Harness? (Howell sells a modified harness one...) I would prefer a 4 bbl TB; are there any stock solutions that would bolt to a square or spread-bore flange? As far as 2 to 4 bbl adapters go, hood clearance is tight already. Here is what I wrote them: > ....355 c.i. Chev small block with forged flat-top pistons built around an > Edelbrock Performer cam (204/214 deg. @ 0.050 in., 0.420/0.442 in.) and manifold > (idle-5500 rpm) package. The engine uses iron L31 Vortec heads, exhausting through > 1 5/8 x 36 in. headers. The headers will be replaced and I will probably use a > "shorty" style. This is installed in a 1979 z/28 (3700 lbs.) currently in front > of a THM 350 automatic (2.52/1.52/1:1), but probably to be replaced by a THM > 200-4R (2.54/1.57/1:1/0.67). The rear gears are 3.42. Hmmm, it does say what year the vehicle is... so their tech weenies can't read either. > .... The idea of using production chevrolet parts with their attendant ease of > replacement also appeals to me. I would like use the 1227747 computer, components > (distributor, etc.), and sensors from the '87-'90 GM TBI system. Since I am using > the Vortec heads and Edelbrock manifold, I obviously need to use a throttle body > assembly that will bolt on a square or spread-bore flange. I am able to change > camshafts if recommended, but I don't think I am able to go to the Performer > RPM manifold due to hood clearance considerations. Thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me in these matters! -- Rich mailto:rschimmelbusch@.att.net coming soon http://www.RainierAviation.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 11:14:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA00592 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:14:41 -0800 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA00588 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:14:35 -0800 Received: from 1Cust175.tnt4.olympia.wa.da.uu.net - 63.14.157.175 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:14:04 -0800 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:28:07 -0800 Organization: AirSIG, Inc. Message-ID: <389f347a.860675229@smtp.email.msn.com> References: <200001261300.FAA27870@hektor.valesh.com> In-Reply-To: <200001261300.FAA27870@hektor.valesh.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id LAA00589 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:31:12 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" wrote: >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: >Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody >know for sure?? > >Greg Hey Bruce, Greg, There is a Toyota (Denso) current-pump style wideband O2 sensor that is 4-wires (scant literature says it senses the same pair of terminals for Vs-sensor output as it pumps current thru for Ip-current pump input; not sure how they can do that), the Toyota-Denso part no. is: 89467-33010, the application is the *front* (pre-cat) sensor, refered to as "Air Fuel Sensor" on Lexus RX300 and Toyota ES300 3.0 V6 *California-only cars* (that app. info is from old notes, and I can't put me fingers on the year data at the moment) ...BUT... I seriously doubt this is it. That sensor alone costs around $300 from Toyota (alot more than the Honda-NTK 5-wire sensor, for example), so it's doubtful a meter based on it would retail for around $300. Plus, the statement that it isn't useable for initial tune is perhaps a giveaway that the Greddy product isn't really based on a wideband O2 device, but rather a conventional heated 4-wire sensor-based meter, similar to the LED gizmos often sold as "low-cost AFR meters". As far as it being the older Bosch LSM-11 4-wire sensor that Greg alludes to, I also kinda doubt it, again from the price-point, and I'm not aware of Toyota ever using it in any of their products. Was this viewable on the web somewhere, Bruce? I didn't see it on the Greddy site. Gar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 12:09:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA01360 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:09:27 -0800 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (IDENT:root@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.233]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA01354 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:09:21 -0800 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (mail1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29670 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:09:19 -0500 Received: from modem-60.jester.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.135.188] helo=default) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 12DYkf-00040g-00 for DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:09:18 +0000 Message-ID: <000701bf6839$0ad7c280$bc87883e@default> From: "Gavin" To: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tim_Drury's_site=3F=BF=3F?= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:02:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anybody know whats happened to it, or an alternate address?¿? His bit in the projects page on the DIY_EFI site absolutely brilliant!(Hey, I'm a newbie at this!), and I want to see what else he has got up to. Myself, I'm starting a new programmable CDI box for a two-stroke bike. It's only ignition,(although on some modern crossers they have powerjet carbs), but I hope to have a shift light setup, rev-limiter, and maybe a switch on the bars to switch to different ignition curves. But hey, I think getting the bike running with my homebrew box will be a start. Oh, BTW, anybody got any info on bike CDI boxes, (Preferably not the big bike boxes which incorporate EFI as well, but any info is much appreciated!) Thanks a lot. Gavin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 13:34:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA02545 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:34:44 -0800 Received: from mail2.ev1.net (smtp.ev1.net [207.218.192.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA02540; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:34:38 -0800 Received: from ev1.net [207.218.210.171] by mail2.ev1.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.04) id A8FA30E00DC; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:36:58 CDT Message-ID: <388F6840.53E98B89@ev1.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:33:52 -0600 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: DeathStar Dumpsters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@diy-efi.org, DIY_EFI , bruce plecan Subject: EFI332 Archives References: <200001262111.NAA02032@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There is a file on incoming for now called EFI332Archives.zip This is the referenced archives with headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|)and blank lines removed. There is a separator between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: $Date: date information $Subject: subject information $From: sender also the WINMAIL trash has been removed. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 14:17:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA03206 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:17:19 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA03202 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:17:14 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-4.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.108]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id RAA22298 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:17:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00a101bf684c$22ee29a0$6c0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200001231300.FAA26097@hektor.valesh.com> <388F3E3A.728BB2CD@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:24:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org To make a long story short, unless you have a Holley TB in your hands for free, just go to a recycling center, and get a TB of a BBC. It will have 80, or 90 lb/hr injectors already. If too big find a late GM Cab and look for the Brn/Yel injectors. More color ID's in archives. BTW, the BBC TB has 2" buttterflies like the Holley, and the IAC is already there. I'm glad to hear Howell, figured out what they were doing was at least dumb, or wrong. That was a long thread....... Grumpy ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Schimmelbusch To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] | "Bruce Plecan" wrote: | > .......why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get | > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some | > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. | > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell | > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly | > Grumpy | | This thread is timely for me as I want to start this project on my SBC. I sent | Howell an e-mail asking about their 4bbl kit, along with a fairly detailed | description of my application, and all I got back was "the 4 bbl kit has been | discontinued. What year car is this going into."!! So now I have a re-worded | query pending with them regarding the 2 bbl kit. Maybe they'd like to sell one | of those... | | It sounds like IAC is the mod required on the Holley TB to make it work? Does | anyone know which Holley TB is a candidate for the modification, analog, D, or | Di, or is there a difference? Nothing a competent machinist couldn't handle, | right? Can everything else remain stock? Harness? (Howell sells a modified | harness one...) I would prefer a 4 bbl TB; are there any stock solutions that | would bolt to a square or spread-bore flange? As far as 2 to 4 bbl adapters | go, hood clearance is tight already. | | Here is what I wrote them: | > ....355 c.i. Chev small block with forged flat-top pistons built around an | > Edelbrock Performer cam (204/214 deg. @ 0.050 in., 0.420/0.442 in.) and manifold | > (idle-5500 rpm) package. The engine uses iron L31 Vortec heads, exhausting through | > 1 5/8 x 36 in. headers. The headers will be replaced and I will probably use a | > "shorty" style. This is installed in a 1979 z/28 (3700 lbs.) currently in front | > of a THM 350 automatic (2.52/1.52/1:1), but probably to be replaced by a THM | > 200-4R (2.54/1.57/1:1/0.67). The rear gears are 3.42. | | Hmmm, it does say what year the vehicle is... so their tech weenies can't read | either. | | > .... The idea of using production chevrolet parts with their attendant ease of | > replacement also appeals to me. I would like use the 1227747 computer, components | > (distributor, etc.), and sensors from the '87-'90 GM TBI system. Since I am using | > the Vortec heads and Edelbrock manifold, I obviously need to use a throttle body | > assembly that will bolt on a square or spread-bore flange. I am able to change | > camshafts if recommended, but I don't think I am able to go to the Performer | > RPM manifold due to hood clearance considerations. | | Thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me in these matters! | -- | Rich | mailto:rschimmelbusch@.att.net | coming soon http://www.RainierAviation.com | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 14:29:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA03309 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:29:06 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb3.bright.net [205.212.123.9]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA03305 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:29:00 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-4.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.108]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id RAA23498 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:28:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00bf01bf684d$c88086a0$6c0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <388F34FC.3D46F85E@terraglyph.com> Subject: Re: Dave Morrills O2 meter? Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:36:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Before you do anything search EGOR, and stuff like O2 sensor Grumpy | I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few questions. | What is the LM3914? | It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that | true? | How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values between .100v | and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means | anything. Correct? | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:24:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA03558 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:24:06 -0800 Received: from mimas.island.net (mimas.island.net [199.60.19.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA03553 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:24:00 -0800 Received: from gmoore (dyn73.comox.island.net [209.52.232.83]) by mimas.island.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/island) with SMTP id PAA30965 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:23:57 -0800 Message-ID: <00b201bf6854$8cc62280$53e834d1@gmoore> From: "Greg Moore" To: Subject: basic tuning Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:24:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning information? How to = recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture is right for the = conditions - load, rpm etc. I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) that's in a '59 = Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to = research how to tune for that. Thanks. Cheers, Greg ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning=20 information? How to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture = is right=20 for the conditions - load, rpm etc.
 
I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) = that's in a=20 '59 Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more=20 about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying with the = idea of=20 adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to research how to tune = for=20 that.
 
Thanks.
 
Cheers, Greg
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:32:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA03692 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:32:55 -0800 Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA03686 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:32:49 -0800 Received: from v1b1k1 (dark-cas3-cs-4.dial.bright.net [216.201.10.108]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id SAA16474 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:32:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <012f01bf6856$b2405560$6c0ac9d8@v1b1k1> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <00b201bf6854$8cc62280$53e834d1@gmoore> Subject: Re: basic tuning Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:40:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the FTP site Tuning.doc Grumpy Hello all, Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning information? How = to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture is right for the = conditions - load, rpm etc. I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) that's in a '59 = Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to = research how to tune for that. Thanks. Cheers, Greg ------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the FTP site
Tuning.doc
Grumpy

Hello all,
 
Can anyone point me to a site that has basic = tuning=20 information? How to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture = is=20 right for the conditions - load, rpm etc.
 
I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) = that's in=20 a '59 Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to = learn=20 more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the=20 idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to research how = to tune=20 for that.
 
Thanks.
 
Cheers, = Greg
------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:51:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA03873 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:51:00 -0800 Received: from horizon.hit.net (rah@horizon.hit.net [206.252.160.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA03859; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:50:24 -0800 Received: from localhost (rah@localhost) by horizon.hit.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15587; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:50:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:50:13 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org, gmecm@diy-efi.org, fourth-gen@f-body.org Subject: Where to get 1-2 fuel injectors (Ford SVO 30lb equivalents) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello, I have what I believe is a marginal fuel injector. One of the header pipes glows a light orange while the car is warming up (and lightly missing). After the car gets warmed up, the injector starts working correctly. This appears to have been a problem on my car for a while, I am pretty sure it is a bad injector and not a electrical problem, since it is pretty reliable that after it gets warmer it appears to start working correctly. Also the car is batch fire, so the only electrical problem possible is the wires connecting the injector to the other injectors on that side are bad. This is the only header pipe glowing, and I can clearly feel when the injector starts working correctly and I can clearly feel when it stops again (as it is warming up, it goes in and out). The injectors are Ford SVO 30lb/hr injectors, and ideas on what part number this would be? The local parts places need to know what the original vehicle was, and that I have no idea about. The injectors are currently installed on a 93 Z28. Roger rah@hit.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 17:53:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA05332 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:53:41 -0800 Received: (from orin@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA05325 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:53:36 -0800 From: Orin Message-Id: <200001270153.RAA05325@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: Where to get 1-2 fuel injectors (Ford SVO 30lb equivalents) In-Reply-To: from Roger Heflin at "Jan 26, 2000 05:50:13 pm" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL65 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > I have what I believe is a marginal fuel injector. One of the header > pipes glows a light orange while the car is warming up (and lightly > missing). After the car gets warmed up, the injector starts working > correctly. This appears to have been a problem on my car for a > while, I am pretty sure it is a bad injector and not a electrical > problem, since it is pretty reliable that after it gets warmer it > appears to start working correctly. Also the car is batch fire, so > the only electrical problem possible is the wires connecting the > injector to the other injectors on that side are bad. This is the > only header pipe glowing, and I can clearly feel when the injector > starts working correctly and I can clearly feel when it stops again > (as it is warming up, it goes in and out). Obvious thing to try is swap the injector with one of its mates and see if the problem moves before buying anything new. Orin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 18:23:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA05587 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:23:17 -0800 Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA05583 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:23:11 -0800 Received: from italymail.com (ts3-62.netquick.net [199.72.47.62]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12935 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:23:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <388FAC09.59933BCF@italymail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:23:05 -0500 From: "Charles A. Fair" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: water/alcohol injection References: <200001261300.FAA27870@hektor.valesh.com> <388F12D7.D767939D@accessworldnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org My mechanic friend Wiley told me a story about water injection. He said when he rebuilt rv motors that used water injection, they had very bad taper on the cylinders. He believes the water injection acted like a steam cleaner and removed the oil film from the cylinder walls... Water injection use became popular with RV's and high compression motors when super leaded fell out of use. My friend believes the engines suffered more damage than benefit from its use, also HP suffers greatly from using it, even though high levels of boost can be maintained. Might be some food for thought. He suggested a better substitute for water injection that would not kill power. This involves setting the EGR up for use under WOT in some sort of fashion... Maybe I misunderstood him, but does sound like an idea. If the EGR valve could be controlled by the ECU and opened when the knock sensor was set off or by a knock sum. This might work as an alternative to water injection without some of the disadvantages, such as running out of water. From some of the stories from other posters, guess the water injection can definitely work though. Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 09:09:47 20