From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 1 22:32:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22750 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:32:22 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA22743 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:32:15 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.228]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010102063214.LZSX10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:32:14 -0500 Message-ID: <014701c07485$e61b6000$e40ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:33:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off valve?. Electric or vac/boost operated considered. Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what *sounds* right?. TIA Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 1 22:40:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22793 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:40:13 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe14.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.118]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA22784 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:39:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe14.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.118] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:39:29 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.196.178] From: "944Technologist" To: References: Subject: Re: Way to measure HP? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:40:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jan 2001 06:39:29.0141 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1C02A50:01C07486] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Why not get G-TECH/Pro? They sell for only $139.95. http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html FR Wilk ___________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wes Branchflower" > Does anyone know how to read the signal from ABS brakes to get an accurate > indication of tire RPM? As james said, if you weigh the mass of the car, > possible on a weigh bridge, with yourself, and all pieces of equipment you > use, then you can log wheel RPM, and knowing the outside diameter of your > tires calcualate distance over time. using a bit of math and an engine RPM > input, you'd possibly be able to get a Rear wheel HP figure. As long as you > didn't get any wheelspin, which would suddenly turn your car into a 1000hp > monster ;) (by the 'dyno' anyway) > > But many variables will change such as wind resistance, tire diameter (with > wear) and most of all changing vechile weight 1. with the person driving the > car, and 2. with how much petrol you have in the tank. > > If you REALLY wanted to you could connect up some sort of calibration to the > fuel gauge to adjust the effective 'mass' value in the calculation with > chaging fuel levels. It might be hard to adjust the 'dyno' when rolling at > vechile momentum will play a part in the result. > > I think this might be accurate enough for the purposes you seek. It would be > interesting how accurate you could get it, possible a few dyno runs as > mentioned by someone else earlier to calibrate it. > > > Or if you just want it to 'look good' who says it has to be real eh? *wink > wink* > > hopefully i haven't just repeated everyone else. I've been up for 48 hours > straight, drunk for most of it in new years, etc.. and yeah here i am! :) > > > HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 1 22:51:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22839 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:51:58 -0800 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA22835 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:51:48 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0868.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.167.103]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA24315 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:51:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4120011226557370@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Way to measure HP? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:55:7 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Amen to that, I just came back from the track & double checked the numbers that i got from the G-tech to the numbers that i got from the Data Master to the numbers that i got from the timing lights @ the track. they were all close enough that i can confidently tune & test w/o having to goto the track every time I want to check progress (or digress). now if only there was some way to not get those pesky "exhibition (sp) of speed" tickets when warming up the meats. BW > [Original Message] > From: 944Technologist > To: > Date: 1/1/01 10:41:00 PM > Subject: Re: Way to measure HP? > > Why not get G-TECH/Pro? > They sell for only $139.95. > http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html > > FR Wilk > ___________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wes Branchflower" > > Does anyone know how to read the signal from ABS brakes to get an accurate > > indication of tire RPM? As james said, if you weigh the mass of the car, > > possible on a weigh bridge, with yourself, and all pieces of equipment you > > use, then you can log wheel RPM, and knowing the outside diameter of your > > tires calcualate distance over time. using a bit of math and an engine RPM > > input, you'd possibly be able to get a Rear wheel HP figure. As long as > you > > didn't get any wheelspin, which would suddenly turn your car into a 1000hp > > monster ;) (by the 'dyno' anyway) > > > > But many variables will change such as wind resistance, tire diameter > (with > > wear) and most of all changing vechile weight 1. with the person driving > the > > car, and 2. with how much petrol you have in the tank. > > > > If you REALLY wanted to you could connect up some sort of calibration to > the > > fuel gauge to adjust the effective 'mass' value in the calculation with > > chaging fuel levels. It might be hard to adjust the 'dyno' when rolling at > > vechile momentum will play a part in the result. > > > > I think this might be accurate enough for the purposes you seek. It would > be > > interesting how accurate you could get it, possible a few dyno runs as > > mentioned by someone else earlier to calibrate it. > > > > > > Or if you just want it to 'look good' who says it has to be real eh? *wink > > wink* > > > > hopefully i haven't just repeated everyone else. I've been up for 48 hours > > straight, drunk for most of it in new years, etc.. and yeah here i am! :) > > > > > > HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- 71-91 RS Camaro --- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 02:27:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA23428 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:27:07 -0800 Received: from titan.golden.net (titan.golden.net [199.166.210.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA23424 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:26:54 -0800 Received: from conestoga.net (AS53-01-54.cas-kit.golden.net [207.35.143.54]) by titan.golden.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09205 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 05:26:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A51D5D9.831E8508@conestoga.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 05:21:29 -0800 From: Stephen Burgess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: engine simulators References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org who's got what to say about any of them..... I'm looking for a reasonable priced software package that would simulate 2, 3, 4, 5 valves, long plenum, short plenum, different exhaust, etc basically I want the most versitile set-up but don't want to pay thousands...any chance there's a shareware package out there somewhere that would come close to what I want??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 03:58:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id DAA23603 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 03:58:21 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f35.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.35]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id DAA23599 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 03:58:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f35.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.35] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 03:57:35 -0800 Received: from 151.198.174.132 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Jan 2001 11:57:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.174.132] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 06:57:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jan 2001 11:57:35.0823 (UTC) FILETIME=[324CB5F0:01C074B3] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of the 12 sec ecplipses use them with good results >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:33:19 -0500 > > > > > Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off >valve?. > Electric or vac/boost operated considered. >Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what *sounds* >right?. >TIA >Bruce > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 04:20:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA23658 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 04:20:22 -0800 Received: from exchange_obv.orga.nl (mail.orga.nl [193.67.112.130]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA23649 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 04:20:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.orga.nl [193.67.112.130] claimed to be exchange_obv.orga.nl Received: by EXCHANGE_OBV with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:14:19 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jeroen Proveniers To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: [OT] Boom boom sound Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:14:17 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hai, Some cars have that typical boom boom sound in the exhaust when the throttle is released (Alfa Romeo 33 for example); I really like this sound. I do not know the cause of it, but I want my car to have it. Is there anything I could make? It's a Ford Sierra with injected 2 litre engine, completely orginal. JJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 05:40:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA23814 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 05:40:53 -0800 Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA23810 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 05:40:46 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id o.db.e7c81cd (4210) for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:40:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:40:04 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Is this part of the compressor housing, or is it a separate part? TIA Mike V > First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off > valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of the 12 > sec ecplipses use them with good results > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 06:04:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA23881 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:04:02 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc4-lfd62.law5.hotmail.com [216.32.243.84]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA23877 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:03:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc4-lfd62.law5.hotmail.com [216.32.243.84] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:03:57 -0800 Received: from 151.198.174.132 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:03:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.174.132] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:03:56 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jan 2001 14:03:57.0195 (UTC) FILETIME=[D92645B0:01C074C4] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Let's make sure that we have our terminology straight here, I might confused, by pop off valve, I take that to mean a blow off valve of B.O.V, the purpose of the B.O.V. to vent positive intake pressure when the throttle plate is closed (normall during a shif), this eliminates the pressure wave from damaging the turbo. By asking if this B.O.V is part of the compressor housing it almost sounds like you are asking if this is a wastegate used to limit boost levels. The short answer to you question though, is no this is not part of the compressor housing it mounts using a diamond shaped flange with two bolts to the intake pipe. >From: ECMnut@aol.com >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:40:04 EST > >Is this part of the compressor housing, or is it a separate part? >TIA >Mike V > > > First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off > > valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of >the >12 > > sec ecplipses use them with good results > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 06:11:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA23914 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:11:33 -0800 Received: from mail7.triad.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA23910 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54] claimed to be mail7.triad.rr.com Received: from markrile ([24.28.239.17]) by mail7.triad.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:11:16 -0500 Message-ID: <008c01c074c4$799083e0$11ef1c18@triad.rr.com> From: "Mark S. Riley" To: References: <014701c07485$e61b6000$e40ac9d8@brucescompute> Subject: Re: Pop Off Valve Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:59:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bruce, do you want a "pop off" valve or a "bypass" valve. The large HKS bypass valve can be used as a popoff but they do have an adjustable pop off valve. Are you having boost spikes or is this preventive medicine? Problem with any mechanical spring loaded valve is that it will start to "bleed" before it gets to the set pressure. The closest I've seen to a open/shut mechanical valve is the "Grainger valve". It's a vacuum check valve that can be reversed and used as a pressure check valve. Have to change the spring inside to get them to work up as high as 25 psi but they are very effective. http://pages.cthome.net/gus/mike.html This fellow explains how to modify and use the valves. I've used the 2 step setup on GN's at 15 and 25 psi with NO boost spiking with both Terry Houston downpipes and Turbonectics wastegates. Very effective. I use a pressure regulated air supply in the shop to set the "G valve" to about 2 psi less than the boost level I want to see on the guage. Mark Riley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:33 AM Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > > > Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off > valve?. > Electric or vac/boost operated considered. > Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what *sounds* > right?. > TIA > Bruce > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 06:36:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA23986 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:36:29 -0800 Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA23982 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:36:23 -0800 Received: (qmail 723 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 14:36:21 -0000 Received: from i48-22-46.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO noname.nodomain.nowhere) (216.26.7.110) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 14:36:21 -0000 From: Guy Hammer Organization: unlikely at best To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: engine simulators Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 05:58:53 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.17] Content-Type: text/plain References: <3A51D5D9.831E8508@conestoga.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01010206014100.17482@noname.nodomain.nowhere> X-KMail-Mark: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id GAA23983 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Tue, 02 Jan 2001, Stephen Burgess writes: > I'm looking for a reasonable priced software package that would simulate 2, 3, > 4, 5 valves, long plenum, short plenum, different exhaust, etc > > basically I want the most versitile set-up but don't want to pay thousands...any > chance there's a shareware package out there somewhere that would come close to > what I want??? Have you checked out Dyno 2000? It's not shareware, but ~$40 seems reasonable enough... :-) http:www.motionsoftware.com -- Guy Hammer, guyh@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~guyh -- 5:55am up 71 days, 14:42, 6 users, load average: 1.04, 1.01, 1.00 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 08:30:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA24348 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:30:54 -0800 Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.40.143]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA24344 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:30:46 -0800 Received: from ronboley (adsl-151-198-24-152.nnj.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.198.24.152]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA10230 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:30:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008a01c074d9$ab70b730$9818c697@bellatlantic.net> From: "ROBO5.8" To: References: <007c01c06909$1d57f660$0500a8c0@chick> <00e001c0690c$438b98c0$0100a8c0@bc.hsia.telus.net> <00e501c0690f$6ea35e00$0500a8c0@chick> Subject: Test Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:32:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This list still alive??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 09:56:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA24689 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:56:12 -0800 Received: from ruthenium ([194.73.73.138]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA24685 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:56:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [194.73.73.138] claimed to be ruthenium Received: from [62.7.9.10] (helo=adrian) by ruthenium with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14DVfD-0006wW-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:55:59 +0000 From: "Ade + Lamb Chop" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:54:10 -0000 Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound Message-ID: <3A5215C2.3029.13D7226@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On 2 Jan 2001, at 13:14, Jeroen Proveniers wrote: > Hai, > > Some cars have that typical boom boom sound in the exhaust when the > throttle is released (Alfa Romeo 33 for example); I really like this > sound. I do not know the cause of it, but I want my car to have it. Is > there anything I could make? It's a Ford Sierra with injected 2 litre > engine, completely orginal. I have only ever had it from an excessive dia exhaust. 2" ID on a 55bhp 1000cc A series for instance. It may be a nice noise but excessive dia of the exhaust means you loose gas speed (and thus gas momentum) which reduces scavenging at the end of the exhaust stroke. Ade ICQ. 75653589 www.adesite.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 11:10:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA24870 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:10:48 -0800 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (mail12.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.215]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA24866 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:10:41 -0800 Received: from modem-17.cobalt.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.17] helo=phil) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14DWpO-0002wL-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:10:35 +0000 Message-ID: <001e01c074e6$29ebe740$111a883e@phil> From: "Phil Martin" To: Subject: wierd o2 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:02:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C074E6.2900EB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C074E6.2900EB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know any information about the o2 sensors used in late BMW's = they give an output signal of 0-5v no the usual 0-1v.=20 Thanks=20 Phillip Martin ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C074E6.2900EB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know any information about = the o2=20 sensors used in late BMW's they give an output signal of 0-5v no the = usual 0-1v.=20
 
Thanks
 
Phillip = Martin
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C074E6.2900EB00-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 12:26:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA25109 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:26:34 -0800 Received: from mercury.mv.net (root@mercury.mv.net [199.125.85.40]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA25105 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:26:28 -0800 Received: from DORA.darkstar.mv.com (darkstar.mv.com [199.125.78.23]) by mercury.mv.net (8.8.8/mem-971025) with ESMTP id PAA15327 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:26:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.0.20010102152516.0297b0a0@pop.mv.com> X-Sender: darkstar-ma@pop.mv.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:26:28 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound In-Reply-To: <3A5215C2.3029.13D7226@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Run rich, (idle mixture) and low back pressure exhaust system, and you should get some good popping! I get it all the time on my Isuzu plow truck, under those exact conditions, and have done it with other engines, too. At 05:54 PM 1/2/2001 +0000, you wrote: >On 2 Jan 2001, at 13:14, Jeroen Proveniers wrote: > > > Hai, > > > > Some cars have that typical boom boom sound in the exhaust when the > > throttle is released (Alfa Romeo 33 for example); I really like this > > sound. I do not know the cause of it, but I want my car to have it. Is > > there anything I could make? It's a Ford Sierra with injected 2 litre > > engine, completely orginal. > >I have only ever had it from an excessive dia exhaust. 2" ID on a >55bhp 1000cc A series for instance. It may be a nice noise but >excessive dia of the exhaust means you loose gas speed (and >thus gas momentum) which reduces scavenging at the end of the >exhaust stroke. > >Ade > >ICQ. 75653589 >www.adesite.co.uk >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 13:10:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA25286 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:10:48 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA25282 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:10:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:10:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: [OT] Boom boom sound Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:10:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Peter D. Hipson [mailto:mail@darkstar.mv.com] > Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound > > > Run rich, (idle mixture) and low back pressure exhaust > system, and you > should get some good popping! I get it all the time on my > Isuzu plow truck, > under those exact conditions, and have done it with other > engines, too. My motorcycles will do this, and so will my Impala SS. The bikes have aftermarket exhaust systems with rather free-flowing baffles; the SS has straight pipes from the cats back. None of them did this with stock exhaust systems, so a good "free-flowing" (read: loud) muffler setup is recommended. I don't doubt that the bikes run rich on the overrun, but I kinda doubt that the SS is dumping a whole lot of fuel in the exhaust (seeing that it's still running near-stock PCM tuning, where as the bikes have been jetting into a non-EPA-compliant state). Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 16:04:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA26253 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:04:18 -0800 Received: from omta03.mta.everyone.net (sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA26249 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:04:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35] claimed to be omta03.mta.everyone.net Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (reports [216.200.145.62]) by omta03.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5E048B19 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0CBD236F9; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:04:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:04:02 -0800 (PST) From: dennis To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: engine simulators X-Originating-Ip: [38.193.223.223] Message-Id: <20010103000403.0CBD236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org --- Stephen Burgess > wrote: >who's got what to say about any of them..... > >I'm looking for a reasonable priced software package that would simulate 2, 3, >4, 5 valves, long plenum, short plenum, different exhaust, etc > >basically I want the most versitile set-up but don't want to pay thousands...any >chance there's a shareware package out there somewhere that would come close to >what I want??? I just bought DesktopDyno2000. I'm not very pleased with it. I'd recommend one of the various versions of "Engine Analyzer" from www.auto-ware.com DesktopDyno2000 doesn't allow any real variables for manifold dimensions. You only get to pick, single plane, dual plane, IR, EFI, tunnel ram, or "forced induction". There are other things I don't like about it too. Dennis _____________________________________________________________ AutoSpeed - The World's Best High Performance Online Magazine http://www.autospeed.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 20:14:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA27068 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:14:13 -0800 Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA27064 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:14:05 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool1178.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.154.158]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA09381 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:13:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200113341726950@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: engine simulators Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:17:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I had used the old desktop dyno, & did not much like the presentation, nor the limited choices that i had. it was pretty accurate, when i finally got the car to the track & calculated HP from times. more than anything i wanted to know if the change i made was going to go up or down in the HP & what the torque curve was going to look like. I think that this is the real benefit to this type of program. i give it 3 1/2 stars. BW > [Original Message] > From: dennis > To: > Date: 1/2/01 4:06:03 PM > Subject: Re: engine simulators > > > > --- Stephen Burgess > > wrote: > >who's got what to say about any of them..... > > > >I'm looking for a reasonable priced software package that would simulate 2, 3, > >4, 5 valves, long plenum, short plenum, different exhaust, etc > > > >basically I want the most versitile set-up but don't want to pay thousands...any > >chance there's a shareware package out there somewhere that would come close to > >what I want??? > > I just bought DesktopDyno2000. I'm not very pleased with it. > > I'd recommend one of the various versions of "Engine Analyzer" from www.auto-ware.com > > DesktopDyno2000 doesn't allow any real variables for manifold dimensions. You only get to pick, single plane, dual plane, IR, EFI, tunnel ram, or "forced induction". There are other things I don't like about it too. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________ > AutoSpeed - The World's Best High Performance Online Magazine > http://www.autospeed.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- 71-91 RS Camaro --- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 20:40:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA27132 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:40:54 -0800 Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA27128 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:40:48 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool1178.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.154.158]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA00792 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:40:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4120011334442700@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: wierd o2 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:44:2 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This sounds like the Titanium O2 sensor. They were used in Toyota (trucks) for a short period of time & some Chrysler products. the one that i bought was from a 4.0L Jeep, don't recall the year but you will know it when you see the price. the standard 1 wire around here is $40, this one is $80. If you want more information, I might be able to come up with it. some of the Chrysler applications used an inverse reading (higher voltage, leaner exh). this device is a variable resistance device & the advantage is that there is not an external O2 reference. this way when you take your truck through a mud puddle you don't fill up the reference & freak out the O2 sensor. I think that when i first got onto this mailing list there was some discussion about this, so there might be more information in the archives. BW > [Original Message] > From: Phil Martin > To: > Date: 1/2/01 11:13:55 AM > Subject: wierd o2 > > Does anyone know any information about the o2 sensors used in late BMW's they give an output signal of 0-5v no the usual 0-1v. > > Thanks > > Phillip Martin > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- 71-91 RS Camaro --- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 21:59:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA27325 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:59:50 -0800 Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA27321 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:59:43 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id o.96.e3d4ed9 (3975) for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:59:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <96.e3d4ed9.278419ac@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:59:08 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I had a turbo from a 2 liter japanese gasoline truck engine that did have an electronically operated valve at the compressor outlet, that, when open, vented the air back to the compressor inlet. It was a mitsu turbo, so i was curious if they did that with the DSM car stuff. It does not sound like they did. Thanks, Mike V In a message dated 1/2/01 9:06:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, vlkslvr@hotmail.com writes: > Let's make sure that we have our terminology straight here, I might > confused, by pop off valve, I take that to mean a blow off valve of B.O.V, > the purpose of the B.O.V. to vent positive intake pressure when the throttle > > plate is closed (normall during a shif), this eliminates the pressure wave > from damaging the turbo. By asking if this B.O.V is part of the compressor > housing it almost sounds like you are asking if this is a wastegate used to > limit boost levels. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 22:03:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA27346 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:03:57 -0800 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA27342 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:03:51 -0800 Received: from cr938302a ([24.156.234.4]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010103060256.MAAI20641.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr938302a> for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:56 -0800 Message-ID: <00c001c0754b$4b2b4da0$04ea9c18@rchrd1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Chris Capowski" To: References: <4120011226557370@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Way to measure HP? Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:06:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Another route to measure torque, and consequently HP would be to simply use a strain gauge on the driveshaft(s) if you know what the shaft is made of. You can almost take a direct torque measuement. No correction factors required here. Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski Sometimes us Mech's take a different approach. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 2 22:08:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA27374 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:08:26 -0800 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA27369 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:08:19 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0158.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.158]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA22551 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:07:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200113361122530@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:11:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org vortech uses one on the LS1 kit that they have for the F bodies, that does not have any wires or vacuum lines going to it. it looks just like some that i have seen on turbo applications, but vortech is porting the gas back to the intput to the blower, don't know why though. i cant imagine that they are that cheap though. BW > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 1/2/01 10:02:59 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > I had a turbo from a 2 liter japanese gasoline truck engine that did > have an electronically operated valve at the compressor outlet, > that, when open, vented the air back to the compressor inlet. > It was a mitsu turbo, so i was curious if they did that with the > DSM car stuff. It does not sound like they did. > Thanks, > Mike V > > In a message dated 1/2/01 9:06:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vlkslvr@hotmail.com writes: > > > Let's make sure that we have our terminology straight here, I might > > confused, by pop off valve, I take that to mean a blow off valve of B.O.V, > > the purpose of the B.O.V. to vent positive intake pressure when the > throttle > > > > plate is closed (normall during a shif), this eliminates the pressure wave > > from damaging the turbo. By asking if this B.O.V is part of the compressor > > housing it almost sounds like you are asking if this is a wastegate used > to > > limit boost levels. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- 71-91 RS Camaro --- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 04:04:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA28207 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:04:22 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f6.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA28203 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f6.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.6] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:03:38 -0800 Received: from 151.198.174.132 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:03:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.174.132] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:03:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2001 12:03:38.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[34AAE270:01C0757D] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The purpose of routing the air back to the inlet is too fold, depending on what type of EFI is on board. This first benifit is that it keeps the turbo spooled up between shifts and secondly if the car is MAF equipped then this is required to keep the car from going extremely rich/bucking during shifts Justin >From: "Bob Wooten" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:11:22 -0800 > >vortech uses one on the LS1 kit that they have for the F bodies, that does >not have any wires or vacuum lines going to it. it looks just like some >that i have seen on turbo applications, but vortech is porting the gas back >to the intput to the blower, don't know why though. i cant imagine that >they are that cheap though. > >BW > > > > [Original Message] > > From: > > To: > > Date: 1/2/01 10:02:59 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > > > I had a turbo from a 2 liter japanese gasoline truck engine that did > > have an electronically operated valve at the compressor outlet, > > that, when open, vented the air back to the compressor inlet. > > It was a mitsu turbo, so i was curious if they did that with the > > DSM car stuff. It does not sound like they did. > > Thanks, > > Mike V > > > > In a message dated 1/2/01 9:06:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > vlkslvr@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > Let's make sure that we have our terminology straight here, I might > > > confused, by pop off valve, I take that to mean a blow off valve of >B.O.V, > > > the purpose of the B.O.V. to vent positive intake pressure when the > > throttle > > > > > > plate is closed (normall during a shif), this eliminates the pressure >wave > > > from damaging the turbo. By asking if this B.O.V is part of the >compressor > > > housing it almost sounds like you are asking if this is a wastegate >used > > to > > > limit boost levels. > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > >--- Bob Wooten >--- r71chevy@earthlink.net >--- 71-91 RS Camaro >--- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 05:03:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA28335 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:03:35 -0800 Received: from keybank.com (csc06keysrva05s.keybank.com [156.77.98.45]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA28331 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:03:28 -0800 From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host csc06keysrva05s.keybank.com [156.77.98.45] claimed to be keybank.com Received: by keybank.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 852569C9.00473413 ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:57:43 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: KEYCORP To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-ID: <852569C9.00473228.00@keybank.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:00:58 -0500 Subject: MAF transfer curves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Different transfer curves for MAFs? Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion project so I'm very curious. Thanks, Rod >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 >From: Chris Conlon >Subject: MAF transfer curves >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage >output varied as the square root of airflow.) >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any >logarithmic MAFs? Chris C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 05:18:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA28385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:18:40 -0800 Received: from po3.eltra.dk (gate1.eltra.dk [194.239.2.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA28381 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:18:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host gate1.eltra.dk [194.239.2.10] claimed to be po3.eltra.dk Received: from MORTEN ([192.168.100.2]) by po3.eltra.dk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id WQSFXQNT; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:17:57 +0100 Message-ID: <002201c07587$9630f700$0264a8c0@eltra.dk> From: "Morten T Nielsen" To: References: Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:17:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id FAA28382 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi My VW has a 2' exhaust and it has never backfired. Some time ago the exhaust-manifold couldn't take the rust anymore and it blew a little hole in itself. Since then the car obviously sounds like an old Nimbus motorcycle and when I lift the throttle the car backfires. - and the only thing that has changed is the tiny hole in the exhaust. So I think it is simply a matter of getting oxygen into the exhaust so that the left over fumes from the combustion can be ignited! If you want to go wild I have seen engines with another pair of sparkplugs in the exhaustmanifold - at idle the engine actually spewed flames out of the exhaust. Ofcourse this also needs some serious enrichening of the gasoline/air mixture ;-) Morten ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 06:05:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA28504 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:05:13 -0800 Received: from mcbain.tzo.com (wks-94-222-42.kscable.com [24.94.222.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA28500 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:05:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host wks-94-222-42.kscable.com [24.94.222.42] claimed to be mcbain.tzo.com Received: from feist.com ([192.168.0.36]) by mcbain.tzo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04036 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:04:57 -0600 Message-ID: <3870ADC0.8F1F832F@feist.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:10:08 -0600 From: shawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve References: <200101030900.BAA27742@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Brian (turbot@swbell.net) tried that locally here ($70 part) and it DOES work for boost when throttle shuts but as mentioned the part throttle was just nasty. The "cap" is crimped on so disassembly was not an option and I was unable to install a helper spring... he crushed it and that helped some but wasnt good enough. Sounded cool though. Gotta go! Shawn ______________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 06:57:35 -0500 From: "justin ivan" Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of the 12 sec ecplipses use them with good results >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:33:19 -0500 > > Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off >valve?. > Electric or vac/boost operated considered. >Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what *sounds* >right?. >TIA >Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 06:29:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA28605 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:29:13 -0800 Received: from firewall.ceco.com (firewall-user@firewall.ceco.com [198.29.253.130]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA28601 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:29:07 -0800 From: don.broadus@exeloncorp.com Received: by firewall.ceco.com; id IAA03574; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:29:29 -0600 Received: from cccntmswp02.ceco.com(130.197.113.222) by firewall.ceco.com via smap (V4.2) id xma003295; Wed, 3 Jan 01 08:29:05 -0600 Received: from cccntcon52.exeloncorp.com (unverified) by cccntmswp02.ceco.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:28:39 -0600 Received: by cccntcon52.ceco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:28:39 -0600 Message-ID: <6D07A7DEF8E8D21182700080D8701070047F0FA3@cccntxch51.ceco.com> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Way to measure HP? Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:28:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org That's the way Land and Sea Dynos does their on car dyno system. The strain gauges are in a drum on the drive shaft by the rear end. The strain gauges are inductively coupled to fixed coils on a bracket on the rear end. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Capowski [SMTP:c.capowski@home.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:06 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Way to measure HP? > > Another route to measure torque, and consequently HP would be to simply > use > a strain gauge on the driveshaft(s) if you know what the shaft is made of. > You can almost take a direct torque measuement. No correction factors > required here. > > Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski > > Sometimes us Mech's take a different approach. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ********************************************************************************* This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corp. proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corp. family of Companies. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. Thank You. ********************************************************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 06:54:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA28684 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:54:15 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA28680 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:54:10 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.252]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010103145358.VXRM10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:53:58 -0500 Message-ID: <008701c07595$2b5f0bc0$fc0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <852569C9.00473228.00@keybank.com> Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:55:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Some are even frequency. I wouldn't say anything universaily applies about MAFs Bruce > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being > the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but > This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion > project so I'm very curious. > Thanks, > Rod > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 > >From: Chris Conlon > >Subject: MAF transfer curves > > >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. > > >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) > >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. > > >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, > >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage > >output varied as the square root of airflow.) > > >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > > > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you > >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As > >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. > > >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any > >logarithmic MAFs? > > Chris C. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 07:09:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA28733 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:09:50 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id HAA28729 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:09:44 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.62] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 3 Jan 2001 15:09:44 UT Received: by cleohsex02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:09:43 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: MAF transfer curves Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:09:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on both ends. These were Hitachi parts. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:55 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves Some are even frequency. I wouldn't say anything universaily applies about MAFs Bruce > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being > the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but > This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion > project so I'm very curious. > Thanks, > Rod > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 > >From: Chris Conlon > >Subject: MAF transfer curves > > >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. > > >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) > >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. > > >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, > >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage > >output varied as the square root of airflow.) > > >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > > > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you > >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As > >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. > > >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any > >logarithmic MAFs? > > Chris C. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 07:21:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA28782 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:21:01 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f122.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.122]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA28778 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:20:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f122.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.122] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:20:24 -0800 Received: from 151.198.174.132 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:20:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.174.132] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:20:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2001 15:20:24.0559 (UTC) FILETIME=[B1D837F0:01C07598] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I don't remember reading about the part throttle issues, could you reiterate (offline if necessary) I have one on my turbo car without any issues. I have run up to 15lbs of boost with no apparent issue and the cool woosh sound during shifts as you mentioned Justin >From: shawn >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve >Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:10:08 -0600 > >Brian (turbot@swbell.net) tried that locally here ($70 part) and it DOES >work for boost when throttle shuts but as mentioned the part throttle was >just nasty. > >The "cap" is crimped on so disassembly was not an option and I was unable >to install a helper spring... he crushed it and that helped some but wasnt >good enough. > >Sounded cool though. Gotta go! > >Shawn > >______________________________________________________ >Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 06:57:35 -0500 >From: "justin ivan" >Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > >First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off >valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of the 12 >sec ecplipses use them with good results > > > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve > >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:33:19 -0500 > > > > Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off > >valve?. > > Electric or vac/boost operated considered. > >Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what >*sounds* > >right?. > >TIA > >Bruce > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 07:57:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA28873 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:57:32 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f230.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.230]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA28869 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:57:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f230.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.230] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:56:56 -0800 Received: from 195.110.81.205 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:56:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.110.81.205] From: "Andy Laurence" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:56:56 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2001 15:56:56.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC4FF000:01C0759D] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Some cars have that typical boom boom sound in the exhaust when the > > throttle is released (Alfa Romeo 33 for example); I really like this > > sound. I do not know the cause of it, but I want my car to have it. Is > > there anything I could make? It's a Ford Sierra with injected 2 litre > > engine, completely orginal. > >I have only ever had it from an excessive dia exhaust. 2" ID on a >55bhp 1000cc A series for instance. It may be a nice noise but >excessive dia of the exhaust means you loose gas speed (and >thus gas momentum) which reduces scavenging at the end of the >exhaust stroke. I can say I had precisely the same experience at the age of 17 going mad with exhausts on a 39bhp Mini ;-) Andy _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 10:18:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29278 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:18:41 -0800 Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA29274 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:18:32 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0450.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.165.195]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05227 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:18:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <412001133182143910@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:21:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I would have guessed about keeping the turbo spooled up, but this is a Vortech blower, not a turbo. I certainly would not have guessed about the MAF though. i was not paying close attn to see if it was SD or MAF, so i have to assume that it is MAF, mystery solved. thanks for the info. BW > [Original Message] > From: justin ivan > To: > Date: 1/3/01 4:09:51 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > The purpose of routing the air back to the inlet is too fold, depending on > what type of EFI is on board. This first benifit is that it keeps the turbo > spooled up between shifts and secondly if the car is MAF equipped then this > is required to keep the car from going extremely rich/bucking during shifts > Justin > > > >From: "Bob Wooten" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:11:22 -0800 > > > >vortech uses one on the LS1 kit that they have for the F bodies, that does > >not have any wires or vacuum lines going to it. it looks just like some > >that i have seen on turbo applications, but vortech is porting the gas back > >to the intput to the blower, don't know why though. i cant imagine that > >they are that cheap though. > > > >BW > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: > > > To: > > > Date: 1/2/01 10:02:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > > > > > I had a turbo from a 2 liter japanese gasoline truck engine that did > > > have an electronically operated valve at the compressor outlet, > > > that, when open, vented the air back to the compressor inlet. > > > It was a mitsu turbo, so i was curious if they did that with the > > > DSM car stuff. It does not sound like they did. > > > Thanks, > > > Mike V > > > > > > In a message dated 1/2/01 9:06:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > > vlkslvr@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > Let's make sure that we have our terminology straight here, I might > > > > confused, by pop off valve, I take that to mean a blow off valve of > >B.O.V, > > > > the purpose of the B.O.V. to vent positive intake pressure when the > > > throttle > > > > > > > > plate is closed (normall during a shif), this eliminates the pressure > >wave > > > > from damaging the turbo. By asking if this B.O.V is part of the > >compressor > > > > housing it almost sounds like you are asking if this is a wastegate > >used > > > to > > > > limit boost levels. > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > > > >--- Bob Wooten > >--- r71chevy@earthlink.net > >--- 71-91 RS Camaro > >--- Never mind LT1, this is LT100 > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com --- 71-91 RS Camaro ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 11:36:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29531 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:36:19 -0800 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA29526 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:36:13 -0800 Received: from [213.122.227.35] (helo=adrian) by tungsten.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14Dthd-0002xS-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2001 19:36:05 +0000 From: "Ade + Lamb Chop" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:34:12 -0000 Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound Message-ID: <3A537EB4.28941.D3EBC@localhost> In-reply-to: <002201c07587$9630f700$0264a8c0@eltra.dk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On 3 Jan 2001, at 14:17, Morten T Nielsen wrote: > Hi > > My VW has a 2' exhaust and it has never backfired. what CC is it? I bet is it a lot more than 1000cc. You will have higher gass speed so you are less likely to get air flowing the wrong way up the exhaust under certain circumstances. Ade ICQ. 75653589 www.adesite.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 12:03:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA29610 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:03:57 -0800 Received: from csun.edu (krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA29606 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:03:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51] claimed to be csun.edu Received: from csun.edu (dhcp2-205.ecs.csun.edu [130.166.2.205]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.2)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA905575 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A538325.C4224D45@csun.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:53:09 -0800 From: Stewart Prince X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: thru shaft tps References: <4120011334442700@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Does anyone know of a TPS with a through shaft design? My particular application won't allow for the mounting of the tps on the other side of the throttle shaft. s. prince ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 12:22:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA29675 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:22:55 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA29671 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:22:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:22:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: thru shaft tps Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:22:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Does anyone know of a TPS with a through shaft design? My particular > application won't allow for the mounting of the tps on the > other side of the > throttle shaft. > s. prince I know of exactly one - an AB Electronic (Colvern) CP17/700. CTS doesn't make a through-shaft TPS, to the best of my knowledge. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 13:47:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA29933 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:47 -0800 Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA29929 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:41 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010103214707.HMVV17226.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3A539E09.BDEEF8E3@home.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:47:53 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve References: <200101030900.BAA27742@hektor.valesh.com> <3870ADC0.8F1F832F@feist.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Lemme guess... MAF equipped car, BOV vented to atmosphere and the top hose on the BOV getting its source from the intake manifold At part throttle pressure upstream of the throttle body will be higher than after the TB. This will cause the BOV to remain slightly open venting "metered" air and the car will run pig rich. Sound familiar or am I way off base here? Rob_O shawn wrote: > > Brian (turbot@swbell.net) tried that locally here ($70 part) and it DOES work for boost when throttle shuts but as mentioned the part throttle was just nasty. > > The "cap" is crimped on so disassembly was not an option and I was unable to install a helper spring... he crushed it and that helped some but wasnt good enough. > > Sounded cool though. Gotta go! > > Shawn > > ______________________________________________________ > Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 06:57:35 -0500 > From: "justin ivan" > Subject: Re: Fw: Pop Off Valve > > First gen diamond star turbo cars have an effective inexpensive pop off > valve. It's metal compared to the chaper BOSCH plastic ones. Some of the 12 > sec ecplipses use them with good results > > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >Subject: Fw: Pop Off Valve > >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:33:19 -0500 > > > > Anyone have any links, ideas, part no.s for a cheap effective pop off > >valve?. > > Electric or vac/boost operated considered. > >Instant acting 2" valve would be nice but for a 231 at 25 PSI what *sounds* > >right?. > >TIA > >Bruce > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 14:01:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:01:21 -0800 Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA29997 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:01:14 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0711.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.152.201]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA27794 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:01:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200113322438480@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: thru shaft tps Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:4:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The 302 in my Ford truck (w/EEC4) has one that was not really through, but you could make it that way. It had a hole in the middle that a splined shaft stuck into. 89, F150, 302, auto, w/EEC4. I think that they are probably "all the same" on the standard SBF motors. Bob Wooten > [Original Message] > From: Stewart Prince > To: > Date: 1/3/01 12:07:07 PM > Subject: thru shaft tps > > Does anyone know of a TPS with a through shaft design? My particular > application won't allow for the mounting of the tps on the other side of the > throttle shaft. > s. prince > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com --- 71-91 RS Camaro ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 16:02:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA30314 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:02:50 -0800 Received: from ns1.mailer.org (mailer.org [199.44.63.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA30310 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:02:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailer.org [199.44.63.2] claimed to be ns1.mailer.org Received: from localhost (amacc@localhost) by ns1.mailer.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18364 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:06 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew McRory X-Sender: amacc@ns1.mailer.org To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: thru shaft tps In-Reply-To: <3A538325.C4224D45@csun.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Stewart Prince wrote: > Does anyone know of a TPS with a through shaft design? My particular > application won't allow for the mounting of the tps on the other side of the > throttle shaft. > s. prince Hi, don't know if this counts but the tps on my '87 5.0 mustang has a dust cover that pops off making it a candidate for modification? Andrew.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 17:07:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA30522 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:07:30 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA30517 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:07:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.69]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:50:19 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c075ea$add21fc0$4569bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: Subject: Re: thru shaft tps Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:07:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Early Ford CFI used a through TPS with a roll pin to "grab" the centre. Mustang, Crown Vic, etc... Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: RE: thru shaft tps > > Does anyone know of a TPS with a through shaft design? My particular > > application won't allow for the mounting of the tps on the > > other side of the > > throttle shaft. > > s. prince > > I know of exactly one - an AB Electronic (Colvern) CP17/700. CTS doesn't > make a through-shaft TPS, to the best of my knowledge. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 3 19:06:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA30935 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:06:03 -0800 Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA30929 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:05:57 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010104030519.QZUX17226.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:05:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3A53E89F.16DABD6C@home.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:06:07 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anyone got charts for the KV flowmeters used on the Talon/Eclipse/Laser? I'd like to use something like the pro-flo 75MM bullet but need to do a voltage/frequency convertor and have no clue as to where to start on the conversion tables Rob_O "Shirley, Mark R" wrote: > > At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, > they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on > both ends. These were Hitachi parts. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:55 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves > > Some are even frequency. > I wouldn't say anything universaily applies about MAFs > Bruce > > > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > > with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being > > the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but > > This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion > > project so I'm very curious. > > Thanks, > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 > > >From: Chris Conlon > > >Subject: MAF transfer curves > > > > >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. > > > > >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) > > >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. > > > > >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, > > >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage > > >output varied as the square root of airflow.) > > > > >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > > > > > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you > > >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As > > >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. > > > > >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any > > >logarithmic MAFs? > > > > Chris C. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 06:16:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA32515 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:16:50 -0800 Received: from ncralmail.corp.truswood.com (ncralmail.corp.truswood.com [198.143.253.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA32511 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:16:43 -0800 Received: from mikes (ncralmail.corp.truswood.com [198.143.253.50]) by ncralmail.corp.truswood.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id YCADKWZF; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:12:14 -0500 Message-ID: <036901c07658$da1b5d80$2b01010a@truswood.com> From: "Mike Swayze" To: Subject: RE:THRU SHAFT TPS RE: DIY-EFI DIGEST V5 #432 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:15:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org http://www.jimsperformance.com/ There is one here called a mini tps, that I used on my TB (about 39.00 new) There is a picture of it on the TB on DIY_EFI incoming under 77cadtb.zip jpg1 shows it assembled. Swayze mswayze@truswood.com kswayze@bellsouth.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 06:28:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA32552 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:28:55 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe23.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.80]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA32548 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:28:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe23.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.80] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:28:18 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [208.44.92.165] From: "Tom" To: References: <200101040900.BAA31768@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #432 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:28:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jan 2001 14:28:18.0770 (UTC) FILETIME=[95246B20:01C0765A] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Newer Ford MAF's are not even close to being linear.. or easily modelled by a single multi-ordered equation. You can get an approximation of yours by using one of the Data Loggers available for your DSM. (1g I assume since the 2g maf is good for 40 lb/min or are you building a 10 sec car?) With an unmolested air meter, log the air mass and compare that to the frequency of the meter. You can either use a multimeter, S-AFC, MASC, or other gizmo to get the raw maf frequency signal. Regarding the other thread.. There is no reason to vent the BOV to the atmosphere. Don't be a riceboy. -tom > Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:06:07 -0500 > From: Rob O > Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves > > Anyone got charts for the KV flowmeters used on the Talon/Eclipse/Laser? > I'd like to use something like the pro-flo 75MM bullet but need to do a > voltage/frequency convertor and have no clue as to where to start on the > conversion tables > > Rob_O > > "Shirley, Mark R" wrote: > > > > At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, > > they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on > > both ends. These were Hitachi parts. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:55 AM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves > > > > Some are even frequency. > > I wouldn't say anything universaily applies about MAFs > > Bruce > > > > > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > > > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > > > with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being > > > the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but > > > This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion > > > project so I'm very curious. > > > Thanks, > > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 > > > >From: Chris Conlon > > > >Subject: MAF transfer curves > > > > > > >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. > > > > > > >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) > > > >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. > > > > > > >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, > > > >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage > > > >output varied as the square root of airflow.) > > > > > > >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > > > > > > > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you > > > >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As > > > >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. > > > > > > >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any > > > >logarithmic MAFs? > > > > > > Chris C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 06:39:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA32588 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:39:58 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA32584 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:39:52 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 4 Jan 2001 14:39:52 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:39:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: MAF transfer curves Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:39:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If you know somebody with a flow bench, you could get the data by empirical means. -----Original Message----- From: Rob O [mailto:rjo1@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:06 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves Anyone got charts for the KV flowmeters used on the Talon/Eclipse/Laser? I'd like to use something like the pro-flo 75MM bullet but need to do a voltage/frequency convertor and have no clue as to where to start on the conversion tables Rob_O "Shirley, Mark R" wrote: > > At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, > they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on > both ends. These were Hitachi parts. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:55 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves > > Some are even frequency. > I wouldn't say anything universaily applies about MAFs > Bruce > > > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > > with respect to airflow for all makes. The only difference being > > the sizes and connectors used. I don't mean to question Chris but > > This would have some serious implications for my flapper-conversion > > project so I'm very curious. > > Thanks, > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 00:36:47 -0500 > > >From: Chris Conlon > > >Subject: MAF transfer curves > > > > >I was wondering a bit about MAF transfer curves. > > > > >I seem to remember people mentioning that some MAFs (GM perhaps) > > >had a voltage output that was linear with respect to airflow. > > > > >In the archives I found that someone else, using a Bosch MAF, > > >found that airflow varied as the square of voltage. (Or, voltage > > >output varied as the square root of airflow.) > > > > >Looking at the curve for a random Pro-flow MAF > > > > > >it appears that airflow varies as the cube of the voltage. (If you > > >plot V vs the cube root of airflow, you get a straight line.) As > > >near as I can tell these units are intended for Ford applications. > > > > >I wonder what other transfer curves are out there? Are there any > > >logarithmic MAFs? > > > > Chris C. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 06:58:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA32655 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:58:33 -0800 Received: from web1003.mail.yahoo.com (web1003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.93]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA32651 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:58:27 -0800 Received: (qmail 23211 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2001 14:58:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20010104145827.23210.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.167.223.70] by web1003.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 04 Jan 2001 06:58:27 PST Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:58:27 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Criswold Subject: Dictionary of basic circuits? To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Is there a book, or series of books, which is a relatively comprehensive compilation of basic circuits? I need something that has stuff like a simple amplifier circuits, and more complicated stuff like frequency to voltage converter circuits. I know there's got to be an easier way than figuring one out every time you have to do it. Thanks Josh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 07:12:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA32704 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:12:54 -0800 Received: from po1.bbn.com (PO1.BBN.COM [192.1.50.38]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA32700 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:12:48 -0800 Received: from bmurray.bbn.com (bbnt-dhcp027-234.bbn.com [128.33.27.234]) by po1.bbn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA04104 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:12:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010104101659.007b78f0@po1.bbn.com> X-Sender: bmurray@po1.bbn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:16:59 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Bruce Murray Subject: Re: [OT] Boom boom sound Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org My dad many years ago showed me how to make excellent boom boom sounds. It only works on carburetted cars so is really a bit off topic but fun anyway. When cruising along, switch off the ignition, floor the gas pedal, and then turn on the ignition and listen. The unburnt gas sitting in the exhaust will ignite with a mighty explosion, if done right (or wrongly) you can blow the exhaust apart. Ask me how I know! I suppose with an EFI system you could provide an override current to the injectors and vary its pulse length to achieve the desired acoustic effect. Bruce Murray ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 07:31:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA00306 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:31:34 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA00302 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:31:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:31:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: THRU SHAFT TPS RE: DIY-EFI DIGEST V5 #432 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:30:58 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Mike Swayze [mailto:mswayze@truswood.com] > Subject: RE:THRU SHAFT TPS RE: DIY-EFI DIGEST V5 #432 > > > http://www.jimsperformance.com/ > > There is one here called a mini tps, that I used on my TB > (about 39.00 new) > There is a picture of it on the TB on DIY_EFI incoming under > 77cadtb.zip Looks a lot like the AB/Colvern unit - thanks for the info. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 07:39:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA00332 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:39:01 -0800 Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.9]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA00323 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:38:54 -0800 From: A70Duster@aol.com Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id o.a3.10097b6d (15708) for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from web30.aolmail.aol.com (web30.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.6]) by air-id05.mx.aol.com (v77.31) with ESMTP; Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:38:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:38:08 EST Subject: Re: MAF GM flavor To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The late 80's MAF sensors that come on Camaros and vettes have a parabolic function, even though all the info I've read from GM says it is linear. Bastards! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 08:41:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA00511 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:41:58 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA00507 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:41:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114] claimed to be fw-austin.austin.arm.com Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id KAA08109; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:41:51 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma008107; Thu, 4 Jan 01 10:41:11 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28260 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:41:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A54A690.1DB3988F@arm.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:36:32 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Dictionary of basic circuits? References: <20010104145827.23210.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There is a series called "Encyclopedia of electronic circuits" that is good. It's basically a collection of circuits from manufacturers data sheets. It's hardbound, almost 800 pages, 100 chapters. Published by TAB books, ISBN 0-8306-0938-5, editor Rudolf F Graf. It's a 3 or 4 volume set, I think each new edition builds on the previous one. I have the first 3 and there's a lot of overlap. Some errors also but a good place for ideas. --steve Josh Criswold wrote: > > Is there a book, or series of books, which is a > relatively comprehensive compilation of basic > circuits? I need something that has stuff like a > simple amplifier circuits, and more complicated stuff > like frequency to voltage converter circuits. I know > there's got to be an easier way than figuring one out > every time you have to do it. > > Thanks > Josh > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 08:51:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA00547 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:51:55 -0800 Received: from bigboy.olemac.net ([206.107.29.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA00543 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:51:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.107.29.5] claimed to be bigboy.olemac.net Received: from pavilion ([206.107.29.210]) by bigboy.olemac.net (Switch-2.0.0/Switch-2.0.0) with SMTP id f04Gphi02531 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:51:43 -0600 Message-ID: <004a01c07634$188dd860$d21d6bce@pavilion> From: "J. Creech" To: References: <200101040900.BAA31768@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #432 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 03:52:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org One drawback to the dataloggers that run off the ECU tho' (Technomotive), they only "count" the freq. up to 1606Hz. I don't know why, something to do with the OBD I software. Scott Creech ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #432 > Newer Ford MAF's are not even close to being linear.. or easily modelled by > a single multi-ordered equation. > > You can get an approximation of yours by using one of the Data Loggers > available for your DSM. (1g I assume since the 2g maf is good for 40 lb/min > or are you building a 10 sec car?) With an unmolested air meter, log the air > mass and compare that to the frequency of the meter. You can either use a > multimeter, S-AFC, MASC, or other gizmo to get the raw maf frequency signal. > > Regarding the other thread.. There is no reason to vent the BOV to the > atmosphere. Don't be a riceboy. > > -tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 08:58:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA00574 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:58:17 -0800 Received: from bigboy.olemac.net ([206.107.29.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA00570 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:58:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.107.29.5] claimed to be bigboy.olemac.net Received: from pavilion ([206.107.29.210]) by bigboy.olemac.net (Switch-2.0.0/Switch-2.0.0) with SMTP id f04Gw8i03697 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:58:08 -0600 Message-ID: <005f01c07634$fe0b3c20$d21d6bce@pavilion> From: "J. Creech" To: References: <20010104145827.23210.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Dictionary of basic circuits? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 03:59:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org It may be beneath you, but have you looked at the "Engineers Notebooks" from Radio shack? They're only like $2 each, and there's a whole slew of them. I also just picked up "Building Power Supplys", or something like that, not sure of the name (the book's at work). Scott Creech ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Criswold" > Is there a book, or series of books, which is a > relatively comprehensive compilation of basic > circuits? I need something that has stuff like a > simple amplifier circuits, and more complicated stuff > like frequency to voltage converter circuits. I know > there's got to be an easier way than figuring one out > every time you have to do it. > > Thanks > Josh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 09:46:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA00745 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:46:12 -0800 Received: from guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (ecdor130.cmc.ec.gc.ca [199.212.17.130]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA00741 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:46:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ecdor130.cmc.ec.gc.ca [199.212.17.130] claimed to be guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca Received: from etc.ec.gc.ca (etc88009.etc.ec.gc.ca [142.135.88.9]) by guiness.etc.ec.gc.ca (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20084 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:42:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3A54B7D1.A9BEC639@etc.ec.gc.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:50:09 -0500 From: Will McGonegal Organization: Environment Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves References: <200101040900.BAA31768@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org We have used Ford MAF sensors at our lab for various projects. We calibrated them against a Laminar Flow Element (that we paid lot's of money for, and believe to be very accurate). The voltage vs. flow output is not linear on the Ford units we use. Here is the curve fit for one of the units we calibrated: Flow (scfm) = 0.6066 - 1.475v + 20.05v^2 - 5.9233v^3 + 1.3292v^4 We calibrate each MAF unit we use. They have similar curves, but there is some variability. I have also heard that the GM units give a frequency output, not voltage. I don't recall if it is linear with flow. Will McGonegal Electrical Engineer/Dynamometer Developer Emissions Research and Measurement Division Environment Canada Ottawa, Ontario > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:00:58 -0500 > From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com > Subject: MAF transfer curves > > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > with respect to airflow for all makes. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:09:34 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: MAF transfer curves > > At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, > they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on > both ends. These were Hitachi parts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 10:09:52 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA00822 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:09:52 -0800 Received: from mail1.cableone.net (mail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA00818 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:09:45 -0800 From: rahmrh@cableone.net Received: from cis8.cableone.net ([24.116.0.44]) by mail1.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44); Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:09:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by cis8.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:09:45 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Dictionary of basic circuits? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:09:45 -0700 Message-ID: <5f5c01c07679$84d92e80$28007418@cableone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id KAA00819 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Horwitz and Hill: "The art of electronics". It has basic circuits, and a basic explaination of the theory for most basic circuits. If you are somewhat experienced with electronics it might be a good book. Several Universities strongly suggest their Engineering Students that need to deal with electronics (EE,ME mostly) having this book. I have it and has reasonable section on everything you mentioned, and I believe parts of A/D and D/A and other basic theory/circuits. According to amazon it is 1100+ pages and about $70. Roger -----Original Message----- From: "owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org" on behalf of "Josh Criswold" Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:58:27 -0800 (PST) To: "diy_efi@diy-efi.org" Subject: Dictionary of basic circuits? Is there a book, or series of books, which is a relatively comprehensive compilation of basic circuits? I need something that has stuff like a simple amplifier circuits, and more complicated stuff like frequency to voltage converter circuits. I know there's got to be an easier way than figuring one out every time you have to do it. Thanks Josh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 10:28:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA00899 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:28:01 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA00895 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:27:55 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.62] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 4 Jan 2001 18:27:54 UT Received: by cleohsex02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:27:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: MAF transfer curves Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:27:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Well, either I was looking at older Ford units (probably), or I had a brain fart and the scale was logarithmic, and I don't remember. It's been a few years. The curve was definitely straight. -----Original Message----- From: Will McGonegal [mailto:McGonegal.Will@etc.ec.gc.ca] Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:50 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAF transfer curves We have used Ford MAF sensors at our lab for various projects. We calibrated them against a Laminar Flow Element (that we paid lot's of money for, and believe to be very accurate). The voltage vs. flow output is not linear on the Ford units we use. Here is the curve fit for one of the units we calibrated: Flow (scfm) = 0.6066 - 1.475v + 20.05v^2 - 5.9233v^3 + 1.3292v^4 We calibrate each MAF unit we use. They have similar curves, but there is some variability. I have also heard that the GM units give a frequency output, not voltage. I don't recall if it is linear with flow. Will McGonegal Electrical Engineer/Dynamometer Developer Emissions Research and Measurement Division Environment Canada Ottawa, Ontario > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:00:58 -0500 > From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com > Subject: MAF transfer curves > > Different transfer curves for MAFs? > Is this true?? I was led to believe that voltage output was linear > with respect to airflow for all makes. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:09:34 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: MAF transfer curves > > At least on the Ford MAF's I had transfer functions for, > they were all linear voltage 0-5V with a little rolloff on > both ends. These were Hitachi parts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 10:32:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA00921 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:32:30 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA00917 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:32:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:32:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Dictionary of basic circuits? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:32:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: steve ravet [mailto:sravet@arm.com] > Subject: Re: Dictionary of basic circuits? > > > There is a series called "Encyclopedia of electronic circuits" that is > good. It's basically a collection of circuits from manufacturers data > sheets. It's hardbound, almost 800 pages, 100 chapters. Published by > TAB books, ISBN 0-8306-0938-5, editor Rudolf F Graf. It's a 3 or 4 > volume set, I think each new edition builds on the previous > one. I have > the first 3 and there's a lot of overlap. Some errors also but a good > place for ideas. > I think there may be up to 6 editions now. I'd also recommend "The Art of Electronics" by Paul Horowitz and Winfield Hill. There's some "good" and "bad" circuits at the end of each chapter (unfortunately, there's no explaination of why the "bad" circuits are "bad). It's a damn good book - covers the basics and also offers a fair amount of detail - and I'd recommend it to anyone interesting in electronics. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 14:33:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA01647 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:33:07 -0800 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA01642 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:33:00 -0800 Received: from richm ([62.255.98.205]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010104223253.HESE18404.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@richm> for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:32:53 +0000 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: Dictionary of basic circuits? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:30:59 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'd recommend H&H too... Cheers Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Eric Bryant > Sent: 04 January 2001 18:32 > To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > Subject: RE: Dictionary of basic circuits? > > > > From: steve ravet [mailto:sravet@arm.com] > > Subject: Re: Dictionary of basic circuits? > > > > > > There is a series called "Encyclopedia of electronic circuits" that is > > good. It's basically a collection of circuits from manufacturers data > > sheets. It's hardbound, almost 800 pages, 100 chapters. Published by > > TAB books, ISBN 0-8306-0938-5, editor Rudolf F Graf. It's a 3 or 4 > > volume set, I think each new edition builds on the previous > > one. I have > > the first 3 and there's a lot of overlap. Some errors also but a good > > place for ideas. > > > > I think there may be up to 6 editions now. > > I'd also recommend "The Art of Electronics" by Paul Horowitz and Winfield > Hill. There's some "good" and "bad" circuits at the end of each chapter > (unfortunately, there's no explaination of why the "bad" circuits > are "bad). > It's a damn good book - covers the basics and also offers a fair amount of > detail - and I'd recommend it to anyone interesting in electronics. > > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 17:50:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02444 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:50:40 -0800 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA02431; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:50:19 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id o.10.7092cad (16781); Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:49:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10.7092cad.27868239@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:49:45 EST Subject: Problem erasing & re-using GM Proms To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org, gmecm@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Have anyone been able to erase a GM prom & reprogram it? I always have to solder a regular 27xxxx eprom on before I can re-program.. I can never seem to re-burn the factory original prom, which doesn't seem to have meaningful identifiers on it. My latest is a 27256 like thing from a '93 L35 4.3 engine. Could I be using the wrong programming voltage? Thanks, Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 17:58:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02476 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:58:00 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA02472 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:57:53 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.41.160]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010105015752.HQCA10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:57:52 -0500 Message-ID: <039f01c076bb$13c95f20$21258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <10.7092cad.27868239@aol.com> Subject: Re: Problem erasing & re-using GM Proms Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:59:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Have anyone been able to erase a GM prom & reprogram it? Yes. > I always have to solder a regular 27xxxx eprom on before I can > re-program.. I can never seem to re-burn the factory original > prom, which doesn't seem to have meaningful identifiers on it. > My latest is a 27256 like thing from a '93 L35 4.3 engine. > Could I be using the wrong programming voltage? Yes. Some need to bath in UV 4-6 cycles to wipe clean. Yes, I've had some never erase. If PCM might be 512 Bruce > Thanks, > Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 23:32:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA03480 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:32:03 -0800 Received: from goldrush.com (goldrush.com [206.171.171.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA03476 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:31:57 -0800 Received: from rhuish (x2-04b-35.goldrush.com [64.162.11.35]) by goldrush.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA00825 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:49:29 -0800 (PST) From: "CudaBob" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:32:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Postscript help? Message-ID: <3A55080B.30584.134554B@localhost> In-reply-to: <200101040900.BAA31768@hektor.valesh.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ok, now that I've manual scanning down pat... yea sure, I find 20- 30 pages takeup mucho mb in PhotoShop format, and up to 20mb in gif file format... a bit on the large size for email attachments. What I would like to do is convert these manuals into Postscript documents, but have no idea how it is done. I hoped it would be as simple as printing to a PS printer file then combining those files into a single document file. This approach is "Not" working, I sure would appreciate some knowledgeable individual pointing me in the right direction. What I have is a windoz machine, PhotoShop 5.5, Acrobat 4+. CudaBob '65 - Angels Camp, Calif CudaBob@workmail.com http://www.goldrush.com/~rhuish/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 4 23:47:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA03534 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:47:46 -0800 Received: from mailhost.iitb.ac.in (mailhost.iitb.ac.in [203.197.74.142]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id XAA03530 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:47:38 -0800 Received: (qmail 18993 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2001 07:49:26 -0000 Received: from epsilon.me.iitb.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.101.16) by mailhost.iitb.ac.in with SMTP; 5 Jan 2001 07:49:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 3343 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2001 07:42:13 -0000 Received: from delta.me.iitb.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.101.13) by epsilon.me.iitb.ernet.in with SMTP; 5 Jan 2001 07:42:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 633 invoked by uid 283); 5 Jan 2001 07:36:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:06:28 +0530 (IST) From: "Ajay A. Vaidya" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Postscript help? In-Reply-To: <3A55080B.30584.134554B@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello! There is one best web site i came across recently.. http://wheel.compose.cs.cmu.edu:8001/cgi-bin/browse/objweb It literaly converts any file into any desired format.... Cheers! On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, CudaBob wrote: #What I would like to do is convert these manuals into Postscript #documents, but have no idea how it is done. I hoped it would be as -Ajju. All limitations are self-imposed. - Ernest Holmes -------------------------------------------------------------------- URL : http://aavaidya.com e-mail : Ajay@aavaidya.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- * LOCAL ADDRESS * * GLOBAL ADDRESS * Vaidya Ajay Ashok c/o Ashok B. Vaidya M.Tech. [Design Engg.] Plot No. 13-B, 273/1, Hostel No : H-1 Room No : 104, Dr. Antrolikar Nagar-1, Indian Institute of Technology,Bombay Hotagi Naka, Powai,Mumbai-400076. Solapur : 413003. Lab : +91-22-5767397 Phone: +91-217-606028 Hostel: +91-22-5721017 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 5 06:16:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA04556 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:16:30 -0800 Received: from po1.bbn.com (PO1.BBN.COM [192.1.50.38]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA04552 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:16:23 -0800 Received: from bmurray.bbn.com (bbnt-dhcp027-234.bbn.com [128.33.27.234]) by po1.bbn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA20212 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:16:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010105092039.007bbb20@po1.bbn.com> X-Sender: bmurray@po1.bbn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:20:39 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Bruce Murray Subject: Bosch Motronic Details Wanted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Folks, I have been chasing down an intermittent problem on my ALFA 164 which uses Motronic 4.2 system. The readings I have been taking show that the system is nowhere as simple as the published literature indicates. I am wondering if some one could explain the more subtle details of the working of these units. For example I have found that, using a Hall effect current sensor and measuring the currents at various points in the circuit, the current through the injectors shows, in addition to the expected variable duty cycle, a lower current square wave at a constant frequency of about 100Hz. Also the current through the idle speed regulator is not just quasi DC as I would have expected, but contains a triangular waveform also at 100Hz. Presumably this 100Hz is the bus timing. I have searched high and low for info that explains in detail the operation of the Motronic. I have read the manuals, and the Bosch books, but of course they are directed toward people repairing cars and will not divulge the interesting internal electronic design details. I have also scoured the archives of this group to no real avail. I must admit that fixing my car problem does not really require that I understand the internals - it's just that I am intrigued. Can anyone point me to this info, (SAE papers etc)? Thanks Bruce Bruce S. Murray Principal Engineer BBN Technologies a Verizon company 70 Fawcett Street Cambridge, MA 02138 ph 617 873-3356 fax 617 873-2918 bmurray@bbn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 5 06:56:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA04678 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:56:14 -0800 Received: from gw2.bfg.com (r-214.66.alltel.net [166.102.214.66]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA04674 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:56:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host r-214.66.alltel.net [166.102.214.66] claimed to be gw2.bfg.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gw2.bfg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27256 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns4.bfg.com(170.126.176.21) by gw2.bfg.com via smap (V2.1) id sma027237; Fri, 5 Jan 01 09:55:55 -0500 Received: from wally.aisvt.bfg.com (wally.aisvt.bfg.com [190.1.52.100]) by ns4.bfg.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f05EtpK02402 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from verex01.aisvt.bfg.com (verex01.aisvt.bfg.com [190.1.157.9]) by wally.aisvt.bfg.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f05Et1I12690 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by verex01.aisvt.bfg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:55:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Franz, Paul" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Motronic Question - Pin Outs Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:55:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello; I have received a heavily re-programmed Bosch Motronic M1.0 (similar to an M1.3) This was used on the BMW 1988 M3 but has been reprogrammed via a previous owner for a different application. The Motronic has a 35 pin connector. Oddly enough the system used 2 pins which are not documented in any of my references. Pin 18 of the connector is a tied to ground. Pin 32 of the connector is tied to a separate connector which tied it to a separate control module which has ceased to operate. Any idea what Pin 32 is tied to within the Motronic? I am interested in pulling the binaries out of the Motronic, any hints at software which can reverse compile the executable to determine the changes use in the aftermarket unit versus the original Motronic? Franz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 5 07:35:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA04794 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:35:17 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA04790 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:35:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.81]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:18:00 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c0772d$17d45940$5169bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <10.7092cad.27868239@aol.com> Subject: Re: Problem erasing & re-using GM Proms Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:35:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Mike, After erasing, try reading and checking that all the bytes have flipped to "FF". Then up the programming voltage if it keeps giving you error programming messages. I never solder anything--haven't had to yet. Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:49 PM Subject: Problem erasing & re-using GM Proms > Have anyone been able to erase a GM prom & reprogram it? > I always have to solder a regular 27xxxx eprom on before I can > re-program.. I can never seem to re-burn the factory original > prom, which doesn't seem to have meaningful identifiers on it. > My latest is a 27256 like thing from a '93 L35 4.3 engine. > Could I be using the wrong programming voltage? > Thanks, > Mike V > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 6 06:45:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA08174 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:45:26 -0800 Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [194.221.183.20]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA08170 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:45:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host pop.gmx.net [194.221.183.20] claimed to be mail.gmx.net Received: (qmail 7845 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 2001 14:44:43 -0000 Received: from a82a6.pppool.de (HELO excalibur) (213.6.130.166) by mail.gmx.net (mail05) with SMTP; 6 Jan 2001 14:44:43 -0000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:44:35 +0100 Message-ID: <01C077F7.919E1DE0.knickm@gmx.net> From: Jens Knickmeyer To: "Mailinglist DIY_EFI (E-mail)" Subject: Bosch Monomotronic part identification Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:44:32 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi all, I need some help with part identification. All parts are from a Bosch Monomotronic of a '92 Volkswagen Polo 45hp. Text in "[]"-brackets describe symbols. The questionable parts are: 1. EPROM: [Intel-"i"] B57604 S7804 U2040283S Sticker: 1 267 356 452 2. [Bosch-Symbol] 30093 1092 PLCC-package 3. BF212M B57677 SMD-14-package 4. [Bosch-Symbol] 30 097 1192 CJ 53B SMD-24-package 5. Siemens B57655 9204 SMD-20-package 6. Phillips B57574 HSS9208 SMD-20-package Thanks in advance, Jens Knickmeyer knickm@gmx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 11:47:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA20465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:47:56 -0800 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA20461 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:47:12 -0800 Received: from modem-110.blue-star-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.240.110] helo=phil) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14FLmS-0004EW-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2001 19:47:04 +0000 Message-ID: <004201c078d9$1185ed80$6ef0883e@phil> From: "Phil Martin" To: Subject: diy uego Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:38:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C078D9.0E403860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C078D9.0E403860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone else built a diy uego circuit yet? If so any hints or useful = changes to the circuit on the diy-efi site would be useful.=20 Thanks=20 Phillip Martin ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C078D9.0E403860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone else built a diy uego = circuit yet? If so=20 any hints or useful changes to the circuit on the diy-efi site would be = useful.=20
 
Thanks
Phillip = Martin
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C078D9.0E403860-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 12:13:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA20539 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:13:46 -0800 Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA20535 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:13:41 -0800 Received: from sos.net (sos-dialup169.nwlink.com [209.20.225.169]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14083 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:13:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A58CF8B.3774CCD9@sos.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 12:20:27 -0800 From: grobbins X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: off topic / traction control Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction control? Grant ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 14:57:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA20973 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:57:37 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA20969 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:57:31 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.79]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010107225730.YIBB10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:57:30 -0500 Message-ID: <004501c078fd$369705e0$4f258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <3A58CF8B.3774CCD9@sos.net> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:57:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Just compare front wheel speed to rear, at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl At 7-8 drop 3 9-10 drop 5 for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer any one cylinder Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer Bruce > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > control? > Grant ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 15:13:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA21029 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:15 -0800 Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.147.1.144]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA21025 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:10 -0800 Received: from mediaone.net (setheahsd.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.246.36]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26455 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:13:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A58F7FE.F43E48C0@mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:13:05 -0500 From: Seth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control References: <3A58CF8B.3774CCD9@sos.net> <004501c078fd$369705e0$4f258fd1@brucescompute> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >From what I have read, the VW ABS/ traction control works at under ~25 mph and applies brakes to the spinning wheel and reduces engine output. Above 25 mph, it just reduces engine output. I don't know any more details than that, but I can tell you that in very slippery conditions, the drive by wire (electronic throttle) cars will start closing the throttle to reduce output after they dump all the turbo boost. -Seth Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > At 7-8 drop 3 > 9-10 drop 5 > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer any one > cylinder > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer > Bruce > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > control? > > Grant > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 18:50:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA21573 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:50:12 -0800 Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA21564 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:49:59 -0800 Received: from sos.net (sos-dialup159.nwlink.com [209.20.225.159]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15147 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:49:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A592C99.73D8CA34@sos.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:57:29 -0800 From: grobbins X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control References: <3A58CF8B.3774CCD9@sos.net> <004501c078fd$369705e0$4f258fd1@brucescompute> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a limited slip function across open differentials. Grant Bruce Plecan wrote: > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > At 7-8 drop 3 > 9-10 drop 5 > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer any one > cylinder > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer > Bruce > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > control? > > Grant > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 7 22:53:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22134 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 22:53:44 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA22130 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 22:53:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z18-5-79.sbbs2.net [212.112.5.79]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY9WHMK; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:53:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: Turbo manifold design. Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:04:32 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi! I am sorry for wasting the bandwidh, but I know many of you guys know a lot about this subject. I have built a new manifold for my car, the stock manifolds are no good. They crack and snap the header studs. The stock manifold has separate flanges for each runner. Should I use separate flanges or should I use one large flange? The flange will only be in contact with the head on a small surface around the ports. Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 05:11:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA23042 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:11:53 -0800 Received: from mail46.fg.online.no (mail46-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.46]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA23038 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail46-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.46] claimed to be mail46.fg.online.no Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a04-0020.dialup.online.no [130.67.70.20]) by mail46.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08972 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:11:19 +0100 (MET) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:10:16 +0100 Message-ID: <01C0797C.B9BDC060.mwichstr@online.no> From: espen hilde To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: SV: Turbo manifold design. Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:09:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft-program for e-post for Internett/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If you are making a large flange you should enlarge the holes from the middle to the end of flange,because it will expand more.If you make it in stainless it will expand even more. I would cut the flange in parts after welding the tubes on. Why is the stock manifold breaking the studs? Maybe you can make some support for the turbo . Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 05:13:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA23055 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:13:43 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA23051 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:13:36 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 8 Jan 2001 13:13:36 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:13:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:13:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id FAA23052 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Did you allow for thermal expansion of your flange? Make the holes that the studs go through larger than the stud. Use a washer head nut for retention. -----Original Message----- From: Jörgen Karlsson [mailto:jurg@pp.sbbs.se] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 2:05 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Turbo manifold design. Hi! I am sorry for wasting the bandwidh, but I know many of you guys know a lot about this subject. I have built a new manifold for my car, the stock manifolds are no good. They crack and snap the header studs. The stock manifold has separate flanges for each runner. Should I use separate flanges or should I use one large flange? The flange will only be in contact with the head on a small surface around the ports. Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 05:24:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA23113 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:24:22 -0800 Received: from mail.fwi.com (root@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA23104 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:24:10 -0800 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-36.fwi.com [209.84.174.101]) by mail.fwi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA29910; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:24:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004c01c07977$97eaf200$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: "DIY_EFI" Cc: "GMECM" Subject: nitrous solenoids as fuel injectors? Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:33:30 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Has anyone tried controlling a nitrous oxide solenoid with a fuel injector driver (like the ones used on GM controllers or aftermarket controllers)? One of the NOS solenoids claims to only draw 0.6 amps so this sounds like it might be compatible with a fuel injector driver. I need some very small auxiliary twin cone injectors and just can't seem to find any so I was thinking of using nitrous oxide style fuel nozzles and control a single solenoid with a fuel injector driver. Any thoughts on this idea? Jason Haines jhaines@mail.fwi.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 06:20:49 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA23301 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:20:49 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f254.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.132]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA23297 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:20:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f254.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.132] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:20:12 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:20:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Turbo flange Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 09:20:12 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2001 14:20:12.0643 (UTC) FILETIME=[1D0A5330:01C0797E] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Corky Bell's book maximum boost has the formula that he recomends for enlarging the holes. I can't remember it off the top of my head and am away on business right now otherwise I would post it. I do remeber that I was shocked at how much he recomended enlarging the holes, it was pretty significant (I want to say 1/3 of the diameter of the hole). Slicing the flange after you weld the piping is also a good idea. I have a question regarding turbo header construction, has anyone found an elegant solution on how to merge the piping together. Need somethine like an NA header collector but it needs to be much shorter to ba able to mount the turbo in the engine bay. Justin Ivan >From: espen hilde >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" >Subject: SV: Turbo manifold design. >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:09:48 +0100 > >If you are making a large flange you should enlarge the holes from the >middle to the end of flange,because it will expand more.If you make it in >stainless it will expand even more. >I would cut the flange in parts after welding the tubes on. >Why is the stock manifold breaking the studs? >Maybe you can make some support for the turbo . >Espen > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 09:40:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA23885 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:40:28 -0800 Received: from mail.fwi.com (root@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA23881 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:40:22 -0800 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-14.fwi.com [209.84.174.79]) by mail.fwi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03162 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:39:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <085101c0799b$59fe3e60$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: References: <3A58CF8B.3774CCD9@sos.net> <004501c078fd$369705e0$4f258fd1@brucescompute> <3A592C99.73D8CA34@sos.net> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:49:05 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I think some of the new BMW models use this slip control logic. Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "grobbins" To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a limited > slip function across open differentials. > > Grant > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > > At 7-8 drop 3 > > 9-10 drop 5 > > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer any one > > cylinder > > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer > > Bruce > > > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > > control? > > > Grant > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 10:08:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA23969 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:08:47 -0800 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA23965 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:08:40 -0800 Received: from [213.1.156.53] (helo=helene) by tungsten.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14FgiG-0003kn-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 18:08:08 +0000 From: "Ade + Lamb Chop" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:05:18 -0000 Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Message-ID: <3A5A015E.22647.248A75D@localhost> In-reply-to: <3A592C99.73D8CA34@sos.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On 7 Jan 2001, at 18:57, grobbins wrote: > I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a > limited slip function across open differentials. I can see this working, as usual the electronics/programming side is just time and a small amount of money. However physically doing it is another matter. How do you plan on applying brake power to single wheels? Ade ICQ. 75653589 www.adesite.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 11:40:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA24282 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:40:27 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f120.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.120]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA24278 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:40:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f120.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.120] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:39:50 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 19:39:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:39:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2001 19:39:50.0443 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3E65FB0:01C079AA] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org VW uses this technology to somewhat disatourous affects. In aggressive (read drag racing) environments, the diff literally hammers itself apart as the brakes are constantly pulsed to try and keep traction. The downfall isn't so much in the traction control method but that VW uses crappy rivets and not 30 bucks worth of bolts in it's diffs. Justin aka vlkslvr >From: "Jason R. Haines" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:49:05 -0500 > >I think some of the new BMW models use this slip control logic. > >Jason > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "grobbins" >To: >Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:57 PM >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a >limited > > slip function across open differentials. > > > > Grant > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > > > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > > > At 7-8 drop 3 > > > 9-10 drop 5 > > > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer >any >one > > > cylinder > > > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer > > > Bruce > > > > > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > > > control? > > > > Grant > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 12:12:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA24423 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:12:34 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id MAA24419 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:12:28 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 8 Jan 2001 20:12:28 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:12:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:12:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org One thing i've learned in engineering: The bean counters almost always win. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 2:40 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control VW uses this technology to somewhat disatourous affects. In aggressive (read drag racing) environments, the diff literally hammers itself apart as the brakes are constantly pulsed to try and keep traction. The downfall isn't so much in the traction control method but that VW uses crappy rivets and not 30 bucks worth of bolts in it's diffs. Justin aka vlkslvr >From: "Jason R. Haines" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:49:05 -0500 > >I think some of the new BMW models use this slip control logic. > >Jason > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "grobbins" >To: >Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:57 PM >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a >limited > > slip function across open differentials. > > > > Grant > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > > > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > > > At 7-8 drop 3 > > > 9-10 drop 5 > > > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer >any >one > > > cylinder > > > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under steer > > > Bruce > > > > > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > > > control? > > > > Grant > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 12:27:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA24464 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:27:05 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc1-lfd186.law13.hotmail.com [64.4.43.208]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA24460 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:27:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc1-lfd186.law13.hotmail.com [64.4.43.208] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:26:29 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:26:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:26:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2001 20:26:29.0482 (UTC) FILETIME=[4841D4A0:01C079B1] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Couldn't agree more, that is why I left the field >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:12:12 -0500 > >One thing i've learned in engineering: The bean counters almost always >win. > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr@hotmail.com] >Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 2:40 PM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > >VW uses this technology to somewhat disatourous affects. In aggressive >(read > >drag racing) environments, the diff literally hammers itself apart as the >brakes are constantly pulsed to try and keep traction. The downfall isn't >so > >much in the traction control method but that VW uses crappy rivets and not >30 bucks worth of bolts in it's diffs. >Justin aka vlkslvr > > > > >From: "Jason R. Haines" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:49:05 -0500 > > > >I think some of the new BMW models use this slip control logic. > > > >Jason > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "grobbins" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:57 PM > >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > > > > I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform a > >limited > > > slip function across open differentials. > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > Just compare front wheel speed to rear, > > > > at like 6% rear wheel over speed drop 1 cyl > > > > At 7-8 drop 3 > > > > 9-10 drop 5 > > > > for a v-8. I like dropin them by a prime number so you dont hammer > >any > >one > > > > cylinder > > > > Slippage amount will vary. Need to allow some for over / under >steer > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction > > > > > control? > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- > > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 13:12:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA24581 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:12:13 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f184.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.184]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA24577 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:12:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f184.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.184] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:11:32 -0800 Received: from 208.249.92.73 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:11:32 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.249.92.73] From: "Rob Weinstock" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:11:32 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2001 21:11:32.0100 (UTC) FILETIME=[93249C40:01C079B7] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Couldn't agree more, that is why I left the field >> >>One thing i've learned in engineering: The bean counters almost always >>win. They are occasionally trumped by safety engineers or warranty claim problems. Rob Weinstock _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 13:57:49 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA24735 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:57:49 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc7-lfd68.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA24731 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:57:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc7-lfd68.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.90] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:57:13 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:57:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:57:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2001 21:57:13.0624 (UTC) FILETIME=[F537F980:01C079BD] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Which are really nothing but disquised Bean Counters making sure that the money made up front doesn't go out the back end due to Lawsuits. Speaking of which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for $100 million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took an explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers tire @ 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought it was more then interesting >From: "Rob Weinstock" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:11:32 > >>Couldn't agree more, that is why I left the field >>> >>>One thing i've learned in engineering: The bean counters almost always >>>win. > >They are occasionally trumped by safety engineers or warranty claim >problems. > >Rob Weinstock >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 14:43:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA24845 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:43:11 -0800 Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.176]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA24841 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:43:04 -0800 Received: from modem-3.adunakhor.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.96.131]) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14Fl0H-0001MK-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 22:43:01 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:43:15 +0000 From: Chris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <87449331694.20010108224315@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Can I throw a question into the arena please? A lot of Japanese cars (and others) are now appearing with 2 O2 sensors, one conventionally placed one pre the cat, and a second one just after the cat. if one removes the cat to remove back pressure on a turbo'd car as a performance hike what would the ECU make of this? On some cars I have done this to there is never a closed loop mixture problem, nor a check engine light either and no fault codes get stored (Toyota). I always replace the second probe in a similar location after the now removed cat(s). Thanks -- Best regards, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 15:00:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA24893 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:00:36 -0800 Received: from mail.fwi.com (root@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA24889 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:00:30 -0800 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-33.fwi.com [209.84.174.98]) by mail.fwi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA21398 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:00:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0a2501c079c7$f78c6540$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ....snip..... > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for $100 > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took an > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers tire @ > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought it was > more then interesting I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The previous month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure issue. Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing done with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). Jason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 15:09:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA24921 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:09:41 -0800 Received: from mail.chartermi.net (mail.chartermi.net [24.213.60.74]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA24917 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:09:34 -0800 Received: from elixir ([24.247.58.30]) by mail.chartermi.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-70107U32242L18562S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:09:07 -0500 From: "Rodney Fulk" To: Subject: RE: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:10:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <87449331694.20010108224315@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The '96 Impala came this way as well. They sell false O2 sensors that feed an "alls right" signal back to the computer regardless and these fool the computer into thinking everything is ok. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Chris > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 5:43 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? > > > > Can I throw a question into the arena please? A lot of Japanese cars > (and others) are now appearing with 2 O2 sensors, one conventionally > placed one pre the cat, and a second one just after the cat. if one > removes the cat to remove back pressure on a turbo'd car as a > performance hike what would the ECU make of this? On some cars I have > done this to there is never a closed loop mixture problem, nor a check > engine light either and no fault codes get stored (Toyota). I always > replace the second probe in a similar location after the now removed > cat(s). Thanks > > -- > Best regards, > Chris > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 15:24:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA24973 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:24:18 -0800 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (mail11.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.23]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA24969 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:24:11 -0800 Received: from modem-3.adunakhor.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.96.131]) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14Fle2-0005db-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 23:24:06 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:24:21 +0000 From: Chris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <149451797700.20010108232421@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: Rodney Fulk Subject: Re[2]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Monday, January 08, 2001, 11:10:08 PM, you wrote: > The '96 Impala came this way as well. They sell false O2 sensors that feed > an "alls right" signal back to the computer regardless and these fool the > computer into thinking everything is ok. Any idea who sells these? Thanks. -- Best regards, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 15:29:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA24994 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:29:55 -0800 Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA24990 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:29:47 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010108232801.UAMZ1118.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:28:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5A4D90.8EF54902@home.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 18:30:24 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? References: <87449331694.20010108224315@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org OBD2 senses EGO before and after the cat to see if the cat is still working. If they get the same reading, it makes the ECU unhappy. Best bet is to plug the hole and zip-tie the 2nd O2 sensor to the body somewhere so it always gets a nice fresh air reading Rob_O Chris wrote: > > Can I throw a question into the arena please? A lot of Japanese cars > (and others) are now appearing with 2 O2 sensors, one conventionally > placed one pre the cat, and a second one just after the cat. if one > removes the cat to remove back pressure on a turbo'd car as a > performance hike what would the ECU make of this? On some cars I have > done this to there is never a closed loop mixture problem, nor a check > engine light either and no fault codes get stored (Toyota). I always > replace the second probe in a similar location after the now removed > cat(s). Thanks > > -- > Best regards, > Chris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 8 17:51:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA25373 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:51:25 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f116.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.116]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA25369 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:51:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f116.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.116] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:50:50 -0800 Received: from 63.100.77.18 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 01:50:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.100.77.18] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:50:49 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 01:50:50.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[97B695C0:01C079DE] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test could have had more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some people are doing out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full size conversion van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other week I saw a full size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles later, a jeep cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? >From: "Jason R. Haines" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 > >....snip..... > > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole > > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for $100 > > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took an > > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers >tire >@ > > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought it >was > > more then interesting > >I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The previous >month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure >issue. >Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing >done >with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even >some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). > >Jason > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 05:15:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA26920 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:15:35 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA26916 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:15:29 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 13:15:28 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:15:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:15:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I seem to remember seeing Motorweek doing the same Explorer test with the tire pressure. Keep in mind that the tread separation issue was caused by excessive speed for extended periods. 100MPH was quoted once. I don't think it's reasonable to think that you can drive an explorer at 100mph+ and *NOT* have problems after a while. Although what I've seen on I-94 at least here in Michigan, there are a fair number of people in SUV's going that fast. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 8:51 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test could have had more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some people are doing out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full size conversion van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other week I saw a full size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles later, a jeep cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? >From: "Jason R. Haines" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 > >....snip..... > > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole > > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for $100 > > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took an > > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers >tire >@ > > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought it >was > > more then interesting > >I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The previous >month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure >issue. >Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing >done >with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even >some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). > >Jason > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 05:20:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA26938 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:20:23 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA26934 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:20:18 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.62] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 13:20:18 UT Received: by cleohsex02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:20:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Re[2]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:20:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org They are regular O2 sensors, tuned for a slightly different output. When I worked at Ford, we talked to a O2 release engineer, who stated that they WERE different, and that you needed the proper ones in the proper places. The ones behind the cat are catalyst monitors, as one person stated, and they look for the *abscence* of toggling voltage. If they start to toggle, the OBD2 monitoring sets a code. -----Original Message----- From: Chris [mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 6:24 PM To: Rodney Fulk Subject: Re[2]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? Monday, January 08, 2001, 11:10:08 PM, you wrote: > The '96 Impala came this way as well. They sell false O2 sensors that feed > an "alls right" signal back to the computer regardless and these fool the > computer into thinking everything is ok. Any idea who sells these? Thanks. -- Best regards, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 05:27:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA26972 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:27:42 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA26968 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:27:36 -0800 Received: from funnel.qnx.com (funnel.qnx.com [209.226.137.2]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA32090 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:26:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:26:27 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: off topic / traction control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org panicing, what the instinctive response when something bad happens ? lock the brake ( then a flat/blown irte is totaly scary). I had a 4dr subaru blow a rear tire last year. I didn't even notice a difference in handling in a straight line. I blew a tire of my 2dr tracker (lr tire again) and it was VERY scary. I think the driver makes 80% of a difference and the car 20% Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: { ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test could have had { more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some people are doing { out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full size conversion { van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other week I saw a full { size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles later, a jeep { cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? { { { >From: "Jason R. Haines" { >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { >To: { >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control { >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 { > { >....snip..... { > > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole { > > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for $100 { > > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took an { > > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers { >tire { >@ { > > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought it { >was { > > more then interesting { > { >I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The previous { >month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure { >issue. { >Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing { >done { >with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even { >some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). { > { >Jason { > { > { >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >quotes) { >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { > { { _________________________________________________________________ { Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 06:11:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA27102 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:11:26 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA27098 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:11:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:12:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:12:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr@hotmail.com] > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test > could have had > more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some > people are doing > out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full > size conversion > van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other > week I saw a full > size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles > later, a jeep > cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? I've had tires go on my full-size van (including a tread seperation of a Firestone), and it hasn't been a problem to control it. Then again, I wasn't traveling in excess of 80 MPH with an overloaded vehicle. I've also blown a *front* tire on our company's Accord at about 80 MPH, and it was completely uneventful. Tire failure doesn't have to result in an accident - hell, tires fail less nowadays than ever before. I think that people don't realize that big SUVs are trucks, and need to be driven as such. I can get away with a lot of stupidity in my cars that I can't in my van. If you blow a tire on a car and do something dumb (like a sudden steering or brake input), you might spin out and go off the road. You do something like that in a van, SUV, or pick-up, and you can launch the thing onto the roof pretty quickly (I know, since my friends and I have done some "experiments" in this field). Big, top-heavy vehicles just aren't as error-tolerant as cars, and obviously there's a lot of people producing error that's in excessive of tolerances. In the Firestone/Ford case, there's a lot of blame to be assigned. You've got the afforementioned driver error, compounded by a vehicle platform design that was marginal at best. Then, you throw a cheap OEM tire at it, and recommend an inflation setting that was set for passenger comfort (since when are *trucks* supposed to ride well?). In engineering, you perform a "worst-case analysis" or "tolerance stack-up" where you take each component in it's worst-case situation and determine the effect on the system. The whole Explorer thing was a great example of a worst-case situation. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 06:37:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA27179 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:37:50 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc1-lfd19.law13.hotmail.com [64.4.43.41]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA27175 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:37:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc1-lfd19.law13.hotmail.com [64.4.43.41] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:37:15 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:37:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:37:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 14:37:15.0009 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8D4BF10:01C07A49] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yeah there is a lot of blame to place. I personally still place a large portion of it on driver input. If people realized that they aren't driving the Honda civic they had for a first car, the roads would be a hell of a lot simpler. Like I said I drove a full size conversion van, and being at the ripe old age of 20 and 21, I did some stupid things in it. I took on/off ramps to quick, Dukes of Hazard slides in the dirt, I was rough on my throttle and steering input, hell I even got air in it once, but never, I mean never did I feel like I was going to tip it. As far as tolerance stack-up, I know exactly where you are coming from on that one being that I designed biomedical micro-valves for a while. You forgot to mention that not only is a tolerance stack-up performed but that a factor of safety >1 should also be considered. That being said, I have heard that most engineering feats (specifically Buildings and bridges) factor in 1 human death for every million dollars. Pretty odd to put a price on human life! >In the Firestone/Ford case, there's a lot of blame to be assigned. You've >got the afforementioned driver error, compounded by a vehicle platform >design that was marginal at best. Then, you throw a cheap OEM tire at it, >and recommend an inflation setting that was set for passenger comfort >(since >when are *trucks* supposed to ride well?). In engineering, you perform a >"worst-case analysis" or "tolerance stack-up" where you take each component >in it's worst-case situation and determine the effect on the system. The >whole Explorer thing was a great example of a worst-case situation. > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante@ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 06:44:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA27211 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:44:27 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc8-lfd87.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.236]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA27207 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:44:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc8-lfd87.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.236] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:43:50 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:43:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:43:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 14:43:50.0378 (UTC) FILETIME=[947D44A0:01C07A4A] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org My instinctive response is slowly let off the gas, don't touch the brake and be careful and gentle with the steering wheel. I really wish that the licensing structure here in america was more strict. Should have to pass a special test to drive a SUV etc. Then again in America we have to have a license to drive, a license to hunt.... maybe we should have a license to pro-create. >From: Pat Ford >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:26:27 -0500 (EST) > >panicing, what the instinctive response when something bad happens ? lock >the brake ( then a flat/blown irte is totaly scary). I had a 4dr subaru >blow a rear tire last year. I didn't even notice a difference in handling >in a straight line. > I blew a tire of my 2dr tracker (lr tire again) and it was VERY scary. I >think the driver makes 80% of a difference and the car 20% > >Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: >{ ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test could have >had >{ more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some people are doing >{ out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full size conversion >{ van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other week I saw a >full >{ size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles later, a jeep >{ cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? >{ >{ >{ >From: "Jason R. Haines" >{ >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >{ >To: >{ >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control >{ >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 >{ > >{ >....snip..... >{ > > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole >{ > > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for >$100 >{ > > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took >an >{ > > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers >{ >tire >{ >@ >{ > > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought >it >{ >was >{ > > more then interesting >{ > >{ >I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The >previous >{ >month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure >{ >issue. >{ >Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing >{ >done >{ >with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even >{ >some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). >{ > >{ >Jason >{ > >{ > >{ > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >{ >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >{ >quotes) >{ >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >{ > >{ >{ _________________________________________________________________ >{ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com >{ >{ >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >{ To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >{ in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >{ > >-- >Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 06:49:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA27244 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:49:53 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA27240 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:49:46 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 14:49:46 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:49:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:49:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org IMHO, the American public is for the most part idiotic to want the hugest truck they can get, expect it to drive just like a Cadillac, and have all the creature comforts of a Cadillac. They are TRUCKS. Period. You can't throw that much mass around and not expect it to have problems with high speed emergency maneuvers. And it's not that the Explorer was poorly designed, it's a truck, designed to drive like a truck. Where they got into trouble was changing tire specs to get it to ride nice. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 9:12 AM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: off topic / traction control I think that people don't realize that big SUVs are trucks, and need to be driven as such. I can get away with a lot of stupidity in my cars that I can't in my van. If you blow a tire on a car and do something dumb (like a sudden steering or brake input), you might spin out and go off the road. You do something like that in a van, SUV, or pick-up, and you can launch the thing onto the roof pretty quickly (I know, since my friends and I have done some "experiments" in this field). Big, top-heavy vehicles just aren't as error-tolerant as cars, and obviously there's a lot of people producing error that's in excessive of tolerances. In the Firestone/Ford case, there's a lot of blame to be assigned. You've got the afforementioned driver error, compounded by a vehicle platform design that was marginal at best. Then, you throw a cheap OEM tire at it, and recommend an inflation setting that was set for passenger comfort (since when are *trucks* supposed to ride well?). In engineering, you perform a "worst-case analysis" or "tolerance stack-up" where you take each component in it's worst-case situation and determine the effect on the system. The whole Explorer thing was a great example of a worst-case situation. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:13:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27332 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:13:10 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27328 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:13:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:13:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:13:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Like I said I drove a full size conversion van, and > being at the > ripe old age of 20 and 21, I did some stupid things in it. Hey, sounds a lot like my driving experience! I picked up my '85 Chevy conversion van when I was 20, and also did my fair share of dumb stuff in it. Once I dropped a GM crate motor into it and got about twice the power, the dumb stuff started to happen at higher speeds:) I never felt close to rolling my van, but I almost endo'd my '78 Blazer once. I was also riding in my friend's S-10 Blazer when he was practicing his rally driving - I believe the move is called the "Scandinavian Slide" (a quick flick away from the direction of the turn, and then back into it - it does a nice job of forcing the tail out, even on a vehicle that is prone to massive understeer). That one put the truck up on one wheel (the outside front). It was a pretty dumb maneuver, but honestly it could happen during a last-second swerve around a road obstruction. > You > forgot to mention that not only is a tolerance stack-up > performed but that a > factor of safety >1 should also be considered. But safety factors cost money, and you need to cut things as close as possible. This is where you need to pay careful attention to test and validation results, rather than just depending on analysis if you're really trying to get your safety factor close to 1. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:16:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27349 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:16:22 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27343 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:16:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:17:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:17:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > And it's not that the Explorer was poorly designed, it's a truck, > designed to drive like a truck. Where they got into trouble was > changing tire specs to get it to ride nice. Much of the problem came with trying to place a large wagon body onto the relatively narrow Ranger platform. Toss in the Twin-Traction-Beam front end and piss-poor tires, and you're talking about a very marginal vehicle. I'm not saying that Ford is to blame for the accidents - hell, there's been a lot of very marginal vehicles released by the Big Three over the past many years. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:17:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27355 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:17:04 -0800 Received: from gw2.bfg.com (r-214.66.alltel.net [166.102.214.66]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27351 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:16:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host r-214.66.alltel.net [166.102.214.66] claimed to be gw2.bfg.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gw2.bfg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01969 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns4.bfg.com(170.126.176.21) by gw2.bfg.com via smap (V2.1) id sma001909; Tue, 9 Jan 01 10:16:28 -0500 Received: from wally.aisvt.bfg.com (wally.aisvt.bfg.com [190.1.52.100]) by ns4.bfg.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f09FGRK28500 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from verex01.aisvt.bfg.com (verex01.aisvt.bfg.com [190.1.157.9]) by wally.aisvt.bfg.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f09FFcI24945 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by verex01.aisvt.bfg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:16:26 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Franz, Paul" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:16:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello; I will attempt to get this post back to the proper off-topic discussion.... Does anyone have any experience with the aftermarket product by Race Logic (http://www.racelogic.co.uk) They have one US distributor listed for their ECU programming tools, but no one is importing the traction control computer. This is the typical Spark and Fuel cut system which add to the ECU and can be configured for various rates of tire slip. Concerning the use of ABS for traction control, a lot of Bosch and Teves systems have a pump to supply brake power to the system after the ABS system isolates the brake pedal from the brake caliper. These systems can then increase or decrease the brake application force to the wheels. These will provide the capability to work with traction control or Dynamic stability. The newest models have the Computer integrated with the hydraulic unit, but earlier models (late 80's) have the computer remote from the hydraulic unit. With a little investigation on wire diagrams, any servo control system could be configured to drive the hydraulic units. Then the user could program the controller to do what ever they desire. (Dynamic stability for tire blow outs on SUV's?) Make sure the ABS system is a full 4 channel unit versus the 3 channel designs. The 3 channel designs do not isolate the individual rear brakes and would not be optimal for Rear Wheel Drive traction control. Franz -----Original Message----- From: grobbins [mailto:grannys@sos.net] Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:20 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: off topic / traction control Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction control? Grant ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:38:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27446 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:38:44 -0800 Received: from mystery.milleredp.com (mystery.milleredp.com [205.178.110.162]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27442 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:38:37 -0800 Received: from tortilla.milleredp.com (tortilla.milleredp.com [205.178.110.181]) by mystery.milleredp.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA13246 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:40:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 07:39:23 -0800 From: John Edward Miller To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Message-ID: <4068387022.979025963@tortilla.milleredp.com> In-Reply-To: <200101090900.BAA26399@hektor.valesh.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >> I was thinking along the lines of using individual brakes to perform >> a limited slip function across open differentials. Go drive some vehicles with OEM traction control. My experience with such is that it's intrusive. We happen to have two fairly similar vehicles, both with factory traction control, one has a limited-slip, one doesn't. The car with limited-slip is smooth and controllable. Flogging the one without yields lots of lurching and chirping. John. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:39:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27460 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:39:27 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27456 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:39:21 -0800 Received: from funnel.qnx.com (funnel.qnx.com [209.226.137.2]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16743 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:38:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:38:16 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: off topic / traction control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No that is a learned response! the instintive on is the one that created your first agricultural excursion, you learned from it most drivers didn't Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: { My instinctive response is slowly let off the gas, don't touch the brake and { be careful and gentle with the steering wheel. I really wish that the { licensing structure here in america was more strict. Should have to pass a { special test to drive a SUV etc. and have 'special' classes ie 90 year on oxygen shouldn't drive on 4 lane hiways, and shouldn't drive in rush hour with out proven competence hi speed ratings for drivers who are tested at speed, in certain cars. I hate being reduced to the lowest common competence level { Then again in America we have to have a license to drive, a license to { hunt.... { maybe we should have a license to pro-create. here here { { { { >From: Pat Ford { >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control { >Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:26:27 -0500 (EST) { > { >panicing, what the instinctive response when something bad happens ? lock { >the brake ( then a flat/blown irte is totaly scary). I had a 4dr subaru { >blow a rear tire last year. I didn't even notice a difference in handling { >in a straight line. { > I blew a tire of my 2dr tracker (lr tire again) and it was VERY scary. I { >think the driver makes 80% of a difference and the car 20% { > { >Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: { >{ ahh maybe you are right C&D it was. Either way, yeah the test could have { >had { >{ more scenarios but it is interesting. I wonder what some people are doing { >{ out there on the road? I had a tread separation on a full size conversion { >{ van and I had no trouble controling it, yet just the other week I saw a { >full { >{ size van upside down on it's roof, and a couple of miles later, a jeep { >{ cherokee on it's side. What the hell are these people doing? { >{ { >{ { >{ >From: "Jason R. Haines" { >{ >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { >{ >To: { >{ >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control { >{ >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:08:45 -0500 { >{ > { >{ >....snip..... { >{ > > which did anyone hear that Ford settled another claim with the whole { >{ > > Firestone Debate? No $figure was given but the Lady was looking for { >$100 { >{ > > million. Also, did anyone see the Motor Trend article where they took { >an { >{ > > explorer, "blew out" (dumped all pressure in <1 sec) the rear drivers { >{ >tire { >{ >@ { >{ > > 70 mph with no hands on the wheel and the truck didn't flip? Thought { >it { >{ >was { >{ > > more then interesting { >{ > { >{ >I think the article you are talking about was in Car & Driver. The { >previous { >{ >month they discussed some of the statistics of the whole tire failure { >{ >issue. { >{ >Pretty interesting although I would have liked to have seen the testing { >{ >done { >{ >with front tire "blow outs" and a heavily loaded vehicle (and maybe even { >{ >some turning occurring when the blow out occurred). { >{ > { >{ >Jason { >{ > { >{ > { >{ { > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >{ >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >{ >quotes) { >{ >in the body of a message (not the subject) to { >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { >{ > { >{ { >{ _________________________________________________________________ { >{ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com { >{ { >{ { >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >{ To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >quotes) { >{ in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { >{ { > { >-- { >Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com { >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com { >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews { >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 { > { >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >quotes) { >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { > { { _________________________________________________________________ { Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:39:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27467 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:39:56 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id HAA27463 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:39:51 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 15:39:50 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:39:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:39:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I agree. Anything over a 2 door explorer was pushing it. Ever look at the suspension on a TTB ranger? Tiny! The Center of gravity being high didn't help either. I had heard that the Bronco2's were especially prone to rollover due to narrow, short wheelbase/high CG. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:17 AM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: off topic / traction control > And it's not that the Explorer was poorly designed, it's a truck, > designed to drive like a truck. Where they got into trouble was > changing tire specs to get it to ride nice. Much of the problem came with trying to place a large wagon body onto the relatively narrow Ranger platform. Toss in the Twin-Traction-Beam front end and piss-poor tires, and you're talking about a very marginal vehicle. I'm not saying that Ford is to blame for the accidents - hell, there's been a lot of very marginal vehicles released by the Big Three over the past many years. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:42:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27501 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:42:13 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc7-lfd74.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.96]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27497 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:42:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc7-lfd74.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.96] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:41:37 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 15:41:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:41:36 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 15:41:37.0205 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6E11650:01C07A52] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm >not saying that Ford is to blame for the accidents - hell, there's been a >lot of very marginal vehicles released by the Big Three over the past many >years. > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante@ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante Oddly enough, Ford's name pops to mind again--- Pinto anyone? But Gm and chrysler have had it's share too. I am just getting tired of marginal engineering decisions beeing twisted by mass media into being something more then they really are. Remeber the GM truck/gas tank deal on dateline a few years ago? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 07:50:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA27554 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:50:56 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc5-lfd22.law5.hotmail.com [216.33.238.44]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA27550 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:50:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc5-lfd22.law5.hotmail.com [216.33.238.44] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:50:20 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 15:50:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:50:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 15:50:20.0413 (UTC) FILETIME=[DEBC4AD0:01C07A53] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I still feel that using brakes for traction control is less then ideal. While traction can be mantained utlizing this system, it can provide a ton of shock to the drivetrain. I feel that a spark/fuel cut is a more elegant solution, and one that should be attainable with the broad knowledge availble here and at other resources. Out of curiosity, what is you intended use for this application? To retrofit the family wagon that didn't have traction control as on option? I can't imagine it is for a race car considering that ABS is on board. There is another programmable efi on the market from the UK that claims to do traction (they call it launch) control, the system is called DTA and the URL is http://www.badger5.co.uk/ look under engine management. Justin >From: "Franz, Paul" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: off topic / traction control >Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:16:25 -0500 > >Hello; > >I will attempt to get this post back to the proper off-topic discussion.... > >Does anyone have any experience with the aftermarket product by Race Logic >(http://www.racelogic.co.uk) They have one US distributor listed for their >ECU programming tools, but no one is importing the traction control >computer. This is the typical Spark and Fuel cut system which add to the >ECU and can be configured for various rates of tire slip. > >Concerning the use of ABS for traction control, a lot of Bosch and Teves >systems have a pump to supply brake power to the system after the ABS >system >isolates the brake pedal from the brake caliper. These systems can then >increase or decrease the brake application force to the wheels. These will >provide the capability to work with traction control or Dynamic stability. > >The newest models have the Computer integrated with the hydraulic unit, >but >earlier models (late 80's) have the computer remote from the hydraulic >unit. With a little investigation on wire diagrams, any servo control >system could be configured to drive the hydraulic units. Then the user >could program the controller to do what ever they desire. (Dynamic >stability for tire blow outs on SUV's?) > >Make sure the ABS system is a full 4 channel unit versus the 3 channel >designs. The 3 channel designs do not isolate the individual rear brakes >and would not be optimal for Rear Wheel Drive traction control. > >Franz > >-----Original Message----- >From: grobbins [mailto:grannys@sos.net] >Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:20 PM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: off topic / traction control > > >Anybody here have any thoughts on reconfiguring ABS as traction >control? > >Grant > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 08:11:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27634 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:11:06 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA27630 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:10:59 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 16:10:59 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:10:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:10:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Unfortunately, that's the dynamic that our societal system has caused. To get ahead, the media types want sensational stories to make a name for themselves. The big three, to provide money for their investors, makes sometimes shoddy decisions. The engineers themselves most times, are idealists, and WANT to produce excellent vehicles, but get hampered by the bean counters. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:42 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control I'm >not saying that Ford is to blame for the accidents - hell, there's been a >lot of very marginal vehicles released by the Big Three over the past many >years. > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante@ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante Oddly enough, Ford's name pops to mind again--- Pinto anyone? But Gm and chrysler have had it's share too. I am just getting tired of marginal engineering decisions beeing twisted by mass media into being something more then they really are. Remeber the GM truck/gas tank deal on dateline a few years ago? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 08:32:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27709 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:32:57 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (lc7-lfd77.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.99]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA27705 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:32:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host lc7-lfd77.law5.hotmail.com [64.4.11.99] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:32:19 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by www.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 16:32:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:32:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 16:32:19.0848 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC6F9080:01C07A59] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I couldn't agree more. That's why I left the engineering field my decisions were ultimately dictated by the bean counters and not best practice. Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: off topic / traction control >Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:10:41 -0500 > >Unfortunately, that's the dynamic that our societal system has caused. >To get ahead, the media types want sensational stories to make a name >for themselves. The big three, to provide money for their investors, >makes sometimes shoddy decisions. The engineers themselves most times, >are idealists, and WANT to produce excellent vehicles, but get hampered >by the bean counters. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 10:12:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA28021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:12:29 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f139.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.139]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA28017 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:12:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f139.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.139] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:11:53 -0800 Received: from 195.110.81.194 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:11:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.110.81.194] From: "Andy Laurence" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:11:53 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2001 18:11:53.0098 (UTC) FILETIME=[A4C52EA0:01C07A67] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >I still feel that using brakes for traction control is less then ideal. >While traction can be mantained utlizing this system, it can provide a ton >of shock to the drivetrain. I have to agress. Unfortunately, you can't adjust the slip at each wheel without either braking a wheel or an electronic differential. Last year (or maybe the year before) in either RaceTech or RaceCar Engineering was an article of speculation about McLaren and how they might get around their active wheel braking being banned. It used two standard planetary differentials but operating on different ratios. The inputs were rigidly connected, but the output shafts were not. One diff had its output shafts directly connected to the wheels, whilst the other one had clutches connecting the two output shafts together. As one wheel started to slip, the clutch on the other side was engaged to speed up the other wheel (consequently slowing the other wheel down through the planetary diff). Seems like a very good solution to the problem, and possibly easier to implement. Any takers? Andy _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 12:45:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA28393 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:45:00 -0800 Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.174]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA28389 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:44:46 -0800 Received: from modem-60.pakistani-butterfly.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.218.60]) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14G5dL-0002IN-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 09 Jan 2001 20:44:43 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 20:44:53 +0000 From: Chris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <20528629468.20010109204453@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: "Shirley, Mark R" Subject: Re[4]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Tuesday, January 09, 2001, 1:20:01 PM, you wrote: > They are regular O2 sensors, tuned for a slightly different output. > When I worked at Ford, we talked to a O2 release engineer, who stated that > they WERE different, and that you needed the proper ones in the proper > places. > The ones behind the cat are catalyst monitors, as one person stated, and > they > look for the *abscence* of toggling voltage. If they start to toggle, the > OBD2 monitoring sets a code. How would you suggest I work around this then? Leave things alone as apparently it all works fine, or do some sort of trickery? Like what :-)? Thanks for the info! -- Best regards, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 13:45:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA28525 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:45:00 -0800 Received: from bserv.com (bserv.com [204.101.197.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA28521 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:44:54 -0800 Received: (qmail 17391 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2001 22:05:44 -0000 Received: from pm7p3.bserv.com (HELO oemcomputer.bserv.com) (204.101.197.133) by bserv.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2001 22:05:44 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109163627.009ec970@bserv.com> X-Sender: tigers@bserv.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 16:44:34 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Bob Tom Subject: Re[4]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? In-Reply-To: <20528629468.20010109204453@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 08:44 PM 1/9/01 +0000, you wrote: >How would you suggest I work around this then? Leave things alone as >apparently it all works fine, or do some sort of trickery? Like what:-)? >Thanks for the info! Chris I would leave it as is since it's not triggering the MIL. The post-cat O2 sensor does not effect the a/f mixture calibration done by the computer. Bob Tom Burlington, Ont., Canada '97 CC Dakota, 5.2L, 4x2, auto., 3.92SG, 4,265 lb (racing weight) Dyno: 231.2 rwhp 340.0 lb-ft rwtorque PB: 14.737 @ 91.75 9.364 @ 72.95 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 15:58:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28995 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:58:02 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA28991 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:57:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.64]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:40:28 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c07a97$fae90740$4069bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109163627.009ec970@bserv.com> Subject: Re: Re[4]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:57:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Well--yes it does. If you remove the converter--leave the second O2 installed, it'll run the fuel system lean. The first O2 will swing rich lean--and the PCM will adjust AFR to keep the 'verter"burn" going. That's how the programming was done to eliminate an air pump. The second O2 is monitoring the burn, right ?? If the burn isn't correct--the system keeps cutting back fuel, less and less fuel--until the BL's are in the 155 to 160 range. It may not set a code, but it'll definitely be in the lean side...BTDT. Not trying to start another flame war ... but this is the end result. Lyndon > I would leave it as is since it's not triggering the MIL. The post-cat O2 > sensor > does not effect the a/f mixture calibration done by the computer. > > > Bob Tom Burlington, Ont., Canada > '97 CC Dakota, 5.2L, 4x2, auto., 3.92SG, 4,265 lb (racing weight) > Dyno: 231.2 rwhp 340.0 lb-ft rwtorque > PB: 14.737 @ 91.75 9.364 @ 72.95 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 16:19:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA29154 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:19:04 -0800 Received: from cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.175]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA29150 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:18:55 -0800 Received: from modem-876.curlew.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.147.108] helo=o1y3y2) by cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14G8yX-0007Bo-00 for DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:18:49 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> From: "TVS" To: "DIY EFI" Subject: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:09:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I know it's a bit of topic and I know it's been discussed many times before (read the archives!) but I would appreciate some advice. I'm planing on turbocharging a Hillman Imp engine (a 930cc SOHC) with a T3 Garrett, which is bit on the large side for the engine. An intercooler would also be used. The boost will be electronically controlled to slightly increase and flatten the torque curve. This is to keep the head gasket in one piece, allow a high static CR to be used and increase the toque at high rpm to make as much power as possible. I'm hoping to allow the engine to usefully rev to 8,500 rpm. There seems to be two options to keep the turbo spinning between gearchanges: 1) Re-circulate the air from the outlet back into the inlet. This would occur during gearchanges and, perhaps, below a given RPM so the turbo would spool up faster. However I am concerned that the turbo *could* be over revved. 2) Restrict the air into the turbo like a carburettored suck-thought system. Could cause problems with oil seals and would increase the throttled volume and so reduce throttle response. Perhaps two throttle bodies could be used in series? As the car is going to be fundamentally a road car but will also be used for hill climbs and sprints, keeping the turbo in one piece is of the utmost importance! i.e. I don't want in inject raw fuel into the exhaust manifold! ;) I have asked a Garrett main dealer for advice but they basically told me they weren't interested (didn't want to be held responsible if it went wrong) and I should go to a tuning company (i.e. with a blank cheque). Many thanks, Toby ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 17:08:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA29430 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:08:19 -0800 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (ains.net.au [210.9.53.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA29426 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:08:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ains.net.au [210.9.53.3] claimed to be dalek.ains.net.au Received: from joe (pgw220.ains.net.au [202.61.243.220]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11612 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:08:09 +1100 Message-ID: <00ba01c07aa1$2594b580$dcf33dca@joe> From: "Joe Beninca" To: References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:03:28 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: DIY EFI Sent: Wednesday, 10 January 2001 11:09 AM Subject: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... > I know it's a bit of topic and I know it's been discussed many times > before (read the archives!) but I would appreciate some advice. > I'm planing on turbocharging a Hillman Imp engine (a 930cc SOHC) with a T3 > Garrett, which is bit on the large side for the engine. An intercooler would > also be used. The boost will be electronically controlled to slightly > increase and flatten the torque curve. This is to keep the head gasket in > one piece, allow a high static CR to be used and increase the toque at high > rpm to make as much power as possible. I'm hoping to allow the engine to > usefully rev to 8,500 rpm. You must start with a fully adjustable sequential ECU like Autronic for accurate control on fuel and spark You need to take care with water circulation to take out any "Hot Spots" > There seems to be two options to keep the turbo spinning between > gearchanges: > 1) Re-circulate the air from the outlet back into the inlet. This would > occur during gearchanges and, perhaps, below a given RPM so the turbo would > spool up faster. However I am concerned that the turbo *could* be over > revved. Autronic has an antilag feature which is easy to implement. No, the turbo cannot be over reved in an antilag situation with correct control > 2) Restrict the air into the turbo like a carburettored suck-thought system. > Could cause problems with oil seals and would increase the throttled volume > and so reduce throttle response. Perhaps two throttle bodies could be used > in series? The only way is to have too throttles in series as you have suggested but controlled by the Before turbo throttle ECU controlled as in the F1 turbo days. Autronic has a mappable output for this purpose. This is too difficult. > As the car is going to be fundamentally a road car but will also be used > for hill climbs and sprints, keeping the turbo in one piece is of the utmost > importance! i.e. I don't want in inject raw fuel into the exhaust manifold! > ;) I have asked a Garrett main dealer for advice but they basically told me > they weren't interested (didn't want to be held responsible if it went > wrong) and I should go to a tuning company (i.e. with a blank cheque). > Many thanks, Toby Use a ball bearing turbo and a correctly designed turbo exhaust manifold. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 17:29:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA29571 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:29:14 -0800 Received: from bigboy.olemac.net ([206.107.29.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA29566 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:29:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.107.29.5] claimed to be bigboy.olemac.net Received: from pavilion ([206.107.29.150]) by bigboy.olemac.net (Switch-2.0.0/Switch-2.0.0) with SMTP id f0A1T5i01543 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:29:05 -0600 Message-ID: <002c01c07a12$191b6680$961d6bce@pavilion> From: "J. Creech" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:59:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I can't count the number of times that I've been cruising along about 85 in my little Laser, and have some fool in an Explorer pass me like I wasn't even there. "I'm in a hurry, got to get to hell before somebody else gets my spot!" Scott C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Keep in mind that the tread separation issue was caused by > excessive speed > for extended periods. 100MPH was quoted once. I don't think it's > reasonable to > think that you can drive an explorer at 100mph+ and *NOT* have problems > after a while. > Although what I've seen on I-94 at least here in Michigan, there are a fair > number of > people in SUV's going that fast. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 17:38:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA29695 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:38:00 -0800 Received: from bserv.com (bserv.com [204.101.197.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA29689 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:37:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 10145 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2001 01:58:47 -0000 Received: from pm1p3.bserv.com (HELO oemcomputer.bserv.com) (204.101.197.43) by bserv.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2001 01:58:47 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109202051.009e73c0@bserv.com> X-Sender: tigers@bserv.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 20:34:32 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Bob Tom Subject: Re: Re[4]: Two O2 probes, one pre, one post cat??? In-Reply-To: <001d01c07a97$fae90740$4069bfce@oemcomputer> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109163627.009ec970@bserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 04:57 PM 1/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >Well--yes it does. If you remove the converter--leave the second O2 >installed, it'll run the fuel system lean. The first O2 will swing rich >lean--and the PCM will adjust AFR to keep the 'verter"burn" going. That's >how the programming was done to eliminate an air pump. > >The second O2 is monitoring the burn, right ?? If the burn isn't >correct--the system keeps cutting back fuel, less and less fuel--until the >BL's are in the 155 to 160 range. It may not set a code, but it'll >definitely be in the lean side...BTDT. > >Not trying to start another flame war ... but this is the end result. > >Lyndon You may be correct, Lyndon. It's something that I'll have to try and find out about ... at least, for the Dakota PCM. I know when I was testing a customized PCM with 24# injectors (stock are 19#) with my scanner. the first O2 sensor was showing outputs swinging back and forth but, after about 10 min. of driving, the second one gave a constant rich output while the first still kept fluctuated rich/lean. Bob Tom Burlington, Ont., Canada '97 CC Dakota, 5.2L, 4x2, auto., 3.92SG, 4,265 lb (racing weight) Dyno: 231.2 rwhp 340.0 lb-ft rwtorque PB: 14.737 @ 91.75 9.364 @ 72.95 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 18:18:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA29983 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:18:06 -0800 Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA29977 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:18:00 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010110021614.HAUF1118.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:16:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5BC688.5A27003A@home.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:18:48 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Turbo flange References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In that book he shows some nice cast collectors, the credit for the pic was cartech. Give them a call, maybe they have something you could use Let me know if they have anything useful, I'm looking at making some custom manifolds for a project myself Rob_O justin ivan wrote: > > Corky Bell's book maximum boost has the formula that he recomends for > enlarging the holes. I can't remember it off the top of my head and am away > on business right now otherwise I would post it. I do remeber that I was > shocked at how much he recomended enlarging the holes, it was pretty > significant (I want to say 1/3 of the diameter of the hole). Slicing the > flange after you weld the piping is also a good idea. I have a question > regarding turbo header construction, has anyone found an elegant solution on > how to merge the piping together. Need somethine like an NA header collector > but it needs to be much shorter to ba able to mount the turbo in the engine > bay. > Justin Ivan > > >From: espen hilde > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" > >Subject: SV: Turbo manifold design. > >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:09:48 +0100 > > > >If you are making a large flange you should enlarge the holes from the > >middle to the end of flange,because it will expand more.If you make it in > >stainless it will expand even more. > >I would cut the flange in parts after welding the tubes on. > >Why is the stock manifold breaking the studs? > >Maybe you can make some support for the turbo . > >Espen > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 18:21:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA30019 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:21:21 -0800 Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (imail@femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA30015 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:21:15 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010110022108.CHCU21435.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:21:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5BC74A.5C2A9EA0@home.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:22:02 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: nitrous solenoids as fuel injectors? References: <004c01c07977$97eaf200$5ecdfea9@jrh> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Isn't that how the progressive nitrous controllers work? Pulsing the solenoid?? I don't think they hold up too it very well though, not really designed for that kind of (ab)use and I wouldn't want one to fail under boost. Could get very expensive real quick Rob_O "Jason R. Haines" wrote: > > Has anyone tried controlling a nitrous oxide solenoid with a fuel injector > driver (like the ones used on GM controllers or aftermarket controllers)? > One of the NOS solenoids claims to only draw 0.6 amps so this sounds like it > might be compatible with a fuel injector driver. I need some very small > auxiliary twin cone injectors and just can't seem to find any so I was > thinking of using nitrous oxide style fuel nozzles and control a single > solenoid with a fuel injector driver. Any thoughts on this idea? > > Jason Haines > jhaines@mail.fwi.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 18:25:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA30069 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:25:25 -0800 Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (imail@femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA30065 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:25:19 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010110022514.CJXK21435.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:25:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5BC83F.1F227C6F@home.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:26:07 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: diy uego References: <004201c078d9$1185ed80$6ef0883e@phil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm waiting for the "stuff and solder" version myself. I don't have the technical skills to design a proper display I'm very much hoping it will be coming shortly, race season is just around the corner again Rob_O > Phil Martin wrote: > > Has anyone else built a diy uego circuit yet? If so any hints or > useful changes to the circuit on the diy-efi site would be useful. > > Thanks > Phillip Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 9 19:56:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA30771 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:56:29 -0800 Received: from mailhost.fotowire.com (www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA30766 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:56:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42] claimed to be mailhost.fotowire.com Received: from xxl [212.47.181.19] by mailhost.fotowire.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id AD4249009C; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:55:46 +0000 Message-ID: <001d01c07ab9$3693fae0$1401a8c0@gva.fotowire.com> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:55:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I know it's a bit of topic and I know it's been discussed many times > before (read the archives!) but I would appreciate some advice. > I'm planing on turbocharging a Hillman Imp engine (a 930cc SOHC) with a T3 > Garrett, which is bit on the large side for the engine. More than a bit on the large side, IMHO, at this unit is often found on engines with twice the displacement. > An intercooler would > also be used. The boost will be electronically controlled to slightly > increase and flatten the torque curve. This is to keep the head gasket in > one piece, allow a high static CR to be used and increase the toque at high > rpm to make as much power as possible. I'm hoping to allow the engine to > usefully rev to 8,500 rpm. What kind of high CR are you planning to use? 9 - 9.5 to 1 is about as high as you can get if you use 102 octane race fuel. With 98 unleaded, 8.5 - 8.8 is probably very high. If you compress more, you'll reach the knock limit really early under boost and you'll need to set your spark advance to a (much) less than optimal point, negating most of the benefits of turbocharging. > There seems to be two options to keep the turbo spinning between > gearchanges: > 1) Re-circulate the air from the outlet back into the inlet. This would > occur during gearchanges and, perhaps, below a given RPM so the turbo would > spool up faster. However I am concerned that the turbo *could* be over > revved. This won't really cut it. Recirculating the air will make it slow down a little slower, maybe. However, this won't be really noticeable. In my experience, dump valves and the like do absolutely nothing to the turbo lag, just noise and some 'peace of mind'. The turbo will certainly not over-rev with the throttle closed :) > 2) Restrict the air into the turbo like a carburettored suck-thought system. > Could cause problems with oil seals and would increase the throttled volume > and so reduce throttle response. Perhaps two throttle bodies could be used > in series? This will most likely over-rev the turbo as you'll create a vaacum condition at the turbo inlet. Anti-lag systems basically work by bypassing a *lot* of air around the throttle butterfly, either by using a solenoid air bypass valve or by keeping the throttle open (say 25-30 degree) using some kind of actuator. As a rule of thumb, you need to bypass enough air to make the engine rev up to its max rpm speed in neutral. Ignition is retarded according to throttle position, starting around mid-throttle and ending at 40 to 50 degrees of retard (from the normal spark advance) when the throttle is fully released. Also, a certain amount (say 0 to 50%, again starting around mid-throttle) of fuel pulses are cut to partially stall the engine so you still have some engine brake and the vehicle slows down normally when the throttle is closed. Older anti-lag systems used to cut part of the ignition but this resulted in gratuitous bangs and flames in the exhaust with big surges and spikes in the boost - not a really smooth ride. Cutting fuel is just as effective as slowing down the engine despite the bypassed air and is less destructive (and still bangs enough because of the retard). Of course, your ECU must support all those retard and cut functions. This system is extremely effective, the turbo lag is reduced to zero when shifting, exiting tight corners etc. However, you have to *seriously* heat-shield everything around the turbo and manifold and make sure there is absolutely no oil leak in that area to avoid engine fires. The turbo is orange-yellow when driving hard with ALS active. > As the car is going to be fundamentally a road car but will also be used > for hill climbs and sprints, keeping the turbo in one piece is of the utmost > importance! i.e. I don't want in inject raw fuel into the exhaust manifold! > ;) I have asked a Garrett main dealer for advice but they basically told me > they weren't interested (didn't want to be held responsible if it went > wrong) and I should go to a tuning company (i.e. with a blank cheque). > Many thanks, Toby What you really need to do to your T3 if you want to make it ALS-proof is to use a 360deg thrust bearing and also replace the turbine with a stronger one. The standard turbine has Inconel blades and a steel shaft and tend to break at the junction when heated above 950 degrees C or so, temp which is more than easily reached when ALS is activated. What you want is a type 247 'Maram' turbine, which is made out of a single piece of Inconel. The turbine blades can machined ("cut back") in a way that will reduce backpressure and limit the max turbo speed to a safe value. This part is, however, *very, very* expensive. Check www.turbotechnics.com they are extremely experienced as they developped the T3's and T35's used by Ford for World rallying, where anti-lag systems are born and heavily used. They can supply all parts and do the necessary machining or supply complete, ready to race ALS-capable units. They usually are happy to give advice as long as you ask the right questions :) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > HTH, Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 00:09:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA32428 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:09:26 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA32424 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:09:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z9-3-40.sbbs2.net [212.112.3.40]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY9XBQD; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:09:03 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:20:11 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The stock manifold has separate flanges, but since the manifold is pretty strong it does not flex anyway. My thinking was that if I used one large flange it would not get as hot as the manifold itself. Maybe it would be 250ºC, thats a big improvement over the 700+ºC temperature of the tubing. Unfortunally the flange will only be in contact with the head at the ports, if the head was flat like that of a Honda VTEC engine the flange would have the same temperature as the head and all the stress would be on the tubes and welds of the manifold itself. I think that one problem are that when the manifold slides against the head the nut does not slide against the manifold, the stud gets bent back and forth everytime the temperature changes. But sometimes when the temperature gets real high the nut might slides and gets stuck in an other position, then when the manifold cools down the stud is breaks. I am pretty sure that this is what happens. One guy I know are sure that the studs break because of the weight of the turbo, I don't belive in this since the studs break in the oposite end of the manifold compared to the turbo. But the end where the studs break has higher exhaust temperature then the end where the turbo is installed, that supports my thermal expansion theory. If I still get problems with this manifold I will have to install slip joint at the outer runners, these leak a bit and I hope to avoid them. Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 01:18:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA00585 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:18:03 -0800 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA00579 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:17:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id RAA01913 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:17:53 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpdfr8zkd; Wed Jan 10 09:17:48 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id RAA24353 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:17:48 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200101100917.RAA24353@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. In-Reply-To: from =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= at "Jan 10, 2001 09:20:11 am" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:17:47 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au id RAA24353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id BAA00580 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Jörgen Karlsson tapped away at the keyboard with: > The stock manifold has separate flanges, but since the manifold is pretty > strong it does not flex anyway. It should. That's how you cope with the different expansion. The stiffer the manifold, the greater the stress on the manifold attachment. The manifold should only be strong enough to contain the exhaust gases. :-) With an allow head and steel manifold, you automatically have to cope with different rates of expansion. If each runner is individually-flanged, then the stress is reduced because the runner flexes individually. Only a small amount of stress results in each flange because it's fixed in at least two places. > My thinking was that if I used one large flange it would not get as hot as > the manifold itself. Maybe it would be 250ºC, thats a big improvement over > the 700+ºC temperature of the tubing. More, smaller flanges is better because of the reason described above. If you put all the runners onto the same flange, then they work in parallel, trying to keep the flange from expanding under the applied heat in addition to the flange stretching from the bolts of the flange... If you can't do individual flanges, then reduce the flange cross-section between ports to increase flexibility. That will reduce the stress on the bolts, as well as the head as the strain (stretch) is accomodated in the more flexible portions of the flange. Avoid sharp edges where you reduce the flange section and ensure that the gasket is adequately supported. > Unfortunally the flange will only be in contact with the head at > the ports, if the head was flat like that of a Honda VTEC engine > the flange would have the same temperature as the head and all the > stress would be on the tubes and welds of the manifold itself. > I think that one problem are that when the manifold slides against > the head the nut does not slide against the manifold, the stud > gets bent back and forth everytime the temperature changes. But > sometimes when the temperature gets real high the nut might slides > and gets stuck in an other position, then when the manifold cools > down the stud is breaks. I am pretty sure that this is what > happens. That's typical of an "over-constrained" system. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 04:14:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA01264 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:14:39 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA01260 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:14:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z9-3-40.sbbs2.net [212.112.3.40]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY9X1A9; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:14:22 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:25:30 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200101100917.RAA24353@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Berndt wrote: > Jörgen Karlsson tapped away at the keyboard with: > > > The stock manifold has separate flanges, but since the manifold > is pretty > > strong it does not flex anyway. > > It should. That's how you cope with the different expansion. > The stiffer the manifold, the greater the stress on the manifold > attachment. The manifold should only be strong enough to contain the > exhaust gases. :-) I agree, but tell that to Audi. > With an allow head and steel manifold, you automatically have to > cope with different rates of expansion. Where the thermal expansion of steel are about half of the thermal expansion of aluminum, at least if my memory serves me right and the information wasn't corrupted in the first place. Since the full lenght flange will always be hotter then the head this is good, the problem occurs when it gets more then twice as hot as the head. One calculation I did was that the flange plate will grow 1.9mm in it's full length when it is at 350ºC, compared to 20ºC. The head should grow around 2mm if the area around the exhaust ports stabilize at 200ºC. The tubing of the exhaust manifold on the other hand will expand 4.2mm compared to room temperature, that is at 700ºC. By checking the color of the stock manifold after a few miles at 150mph I find that the temperature of the exhaust manifold is even higher then that. > If each runner is > individually-flanged, then the stress is reduced because the runner > flexes individually. Only a small amount of stress results in each > flange because it's fixed in at least two places. On a common turbo manifold the runners cannot flex idividually, if they could there wouldn't be much of a problem. All expansion adds up in this case even if I have separate flanges. The difference as I see it is that the studs has to take the force of 2mm of expansion at 700ºC, compared to 0.1mm if I use one large flange. The relatively cool flange will keep the stress of the studs. Individual flanges are very easy to make, the problem is that I don't think that it will work. It hasn't before and I don't think that it will now. The big common flange is a few hours extra work for me. I am more sure then ever about this Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 04:56:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA01465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:56:16 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f64.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.64]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA01461 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:56:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f64.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.64] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:55:40 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:55:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:55:40 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 12:55:40.0454 (UTC) FILETIME=[A29B3460:01C07B04] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Not sure if I agree with everyting that you are saying. When the flange is a single piece, essential all (really just a large portion) of the expansion takes place at the ends of the flange, the material in between constrains the flange from expanding towards the center. When the flange is separated, each port can expand in 2 directions, therefore has more flexibility. If someone can debunk this please do. Justin Ivan >From: Jörgen Karlsson >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:25:30 +0100 > >Berndt wrote: > > > Jörgen Karlsson tapped away at the keyboard with: > > > > > The stock manifold has separate flanges, but since the manifold > > is pretty > > > strong it does not flex anyway. > > > > It should. That's how you cope with the different expansion. > > The stiffer the manifold, the greater the stress on the manifold > > attachment. The manifold should only be strong enough to contain the > > exhaust gases. :-) > >I agree, but tell that to Audi. > > > With an allow head and steel manifold, you automatically have to > > cope with different rates of expansion. > >Where the thermal expansion of steel are about half of the thermal >expansion >of aluminum, at least if my memory serves me right and the information >wasn't corrupted in the first place. Since the full lenght flange will >always be hotter then the head this is good, the problem occurs when it >gets >more then twice as hot as the head. One calculation I did was that the >flange plate will grow 1.9mm in it's full length when it is at 350ºC, >compared to 20ºC. The head should grow around 2mm if the area around the >exhaust ports stabilize at 200ºC. The tubing of the exhaust manifold on the >other hand will expand 4.2mm compared to room temperature, that is at >700ºC. >By checking the color of the stock manifold after a few miles at 150mph I >find that the temperature of the exhaust manifold is even higher then that. > > > > If each runner is > > individually-flanged, then the stress is reduced because the runner > > flexes individually. Only a small amount of stress results in each > > flange because it's fixed in at least two places. > >On a common turbo manifold the runners cannot flex idividually, if they >could there wouldn't be much of a problem. All expansion adds up in this >case even if I have separate flanges. The difference as I see it is that >the >studs has to take the force of 2mm of expansion at 700ºC, compared to 0.1mm >if I use one large flange. The relatively cool flange will keep the stress >of the studs. > >Individual flanges are very easy to make, the problem is that I don't think >that it will work. It hasn't before and I don't think that it will now. The >big common flange is a few hours extra work for me. > >I am more sure then ever about this > >Jörgen > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 05:06:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA01532 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:06:25 -0800 Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (chmls05.mediaone.net [24.147.1.143]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA01528 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:06:19 -0800 Received: from mediaone.net (setheahsd.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.246.135]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22846 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:05:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A5C5E36.40C25B4D@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:05:58 -0500 From: Seth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Corky Bell agrees with the separate flange theory, if that matters to you. He shows hand fabricated manifolds manufactured with one piece flanges. Then the flanges are cut with a hacksaw between each individual port to reduce cracking. -Seth justin ivan wrote: > > Not sure if I agree with everyting that you are saying. When the flange is a > single piece, essential all (really just a large portion) of the expansion > takes place at the ends of the flange, the material in between constrains > the flange from expanding towards the center. When the flange is separated, > each port can expand in 2 directions, therefore has more flexibility. > If someone can debunk this please do. > Justin Ivan > > >From: Jörgen Karlsson > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: > >Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. > >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:25:30 +0100 > > > >Berndt wrote: > > > > > Jörgen Karlsson tapped away at the keyboard with: > > > > > > > The stock manifold has separate flanges, but since the manifold > > > is pretty > > > > strong it does not flex anyway. > > > > > > It should. That's how you cope with the different expansion. > > > The stiffer the manifold, the greater the stress on the manifold > > > attachment. The manifold should only be strong enough to contain the > > > exhaust gases. :-) > > > >I agree, but tell that to Audi. > > > > > With an allow head and steel manifold, you automatically have to > > > cope with different rates of expansion. > > > >Where the thermal expansion of steel are about half of the thermal > >expansion > >of aluminum, at least if my memory serves me right and the information > >wasn't corrupted in the first place. Since the full lenght flange will > >always be hotter then the head this is good, the problem occurs when it > >gets > >more then twice as hot as the head. One calculation I did was that the > >flange plate will grow 1.9mm in it's full length when it is at 350ºC, > >compared to 20ºC. The head should grow around 2mm if the area around the > >exhaust ports stabilize at 200ºC. The tubing of the exhaust manifold on the > >other hand will expand 4.2mm compared to room temperature, that is at > >700ºC. > >By checking the color of the stock manifold after a few miles at 150mph I > >find that the temperature of the exhaust manifold is even higher then that. > > > > > > > If each runner is > > > individually-flanged, then the stress is reduced because the runner > > > flexes individually. Only a small amount of stress results in each > > > flange because it's fixed in at least two places. > > > >On a common turbo manifold the runners cannot flex idividually, if they > >could there wouldn't be much of a problem. All expansion adds up in this > >case even if I have separate flanges. The difference as I see it is that > >the > >studs has to take the force of 2mm of expansion at 700ºC, compared to 0.1mm > >if I use one large flange. The relatively cool flange will keep the stress > >of the studs. > > > >Individual flanges are very easy to make, the problem is that I don't think > >that it will work. It hasn't before and I don't think that it will now. The > >big common flange is a few hours extra work for me. > > > >I am more sure then ever about this > > > >Jörgen > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 05:37:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA01767 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:37:24 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f19.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.19]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA01763 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:37:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f19.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.19] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:36:48 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:36:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:36:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 13:36:48.0427 (UTC) FILETIME=[61A1FFB0:01C07B0A] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >What kind of high CR are you planning to use? 9 - 9.5 to 1 is about as high >as you can get if you use 102 octane race fuel. With 98 unleaded, 8.5 - 8.8 >is probably very high. If you compress more, you'll reach the knock limit >really early under boost and you'll need to set your spark advance to a >(much) less than optimal point, negating most of the benefits of >turbocharging. > I have to disagree with the concept of CR and turbos. Yes a lower CR does allow you the ability to run higher boost numbers without retarding timing too much, but I know of at least 2 (there are plenty more) guys that are running 1.8L 4 cyl with a stock static CR of 10.0:1. The key is careful tuning and a good programmable system. I know that they don't run higher then 102 octane fuel, and they are making some good power #'s. That being said it does require very careful tuning. I am building a turbo motor right now (2035cc 4 cyl DOHC) and I plan on running a static CR of 9.0~9.2:1 depending on how the head gasket spacer I am using turns out. Going to run this on 92 octane with ~10-14lbs of boost depending on what I can tune it too. Of course I am going for a full programmable (in my case an aftermarket) EFI system _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 08:17:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA02358 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:17:43 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA02354 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:17:38 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.93]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010110161726.CJB10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:17:26 -0500 Message-ID: <00cd01c07b20$db7ac540$5d258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:17:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Intake valve closing timing is critical, along with overlap. Just considering CR is falsehood. You can make more HP by using more boost, but in non boosted situations you can wind up with a really lame engine. Which brings application into focus. Bruce > > >What kind of high CR are you planning to use? 9 - 9.5 to 1 is about as high > >as you can get if you use 102 octane race fuel. With 98 unleaded, 8.5 - 8.8 > >is probably very high. If you compress more, you'll reach the knock limit > >really early under boost and you'll need to set your spark advance to a > >(much) less than optimal point, negating most of the benefits of > >turbocharging. > > > I have to disagree with the concept of CR and turbos. Yes a lower CR does > allow you the ability to run higher boost numbers without retarding timing > too much, but I know of at least 2 (there are plenty more) guys that are > running 1.8L 4 cyl with a stock static CR of 10.0:1. The key is careful > tuning and a good programmable system. I know that they don't run higher > then 102 octane fuel, and they are making some good power #'s. That being > said it does require very careful tuning. I am building a turbo motor right > now (2035cc 4 cyl DOHC) and I plan on running a static CR of 9.0~9.2:1 > depending on how the head gasket spacer I am using turns out. Going to run > this on 92 octane with ~10-14lbs of boost depending on what I can tune it > too. Of course I am going for a full programmable (in my case an > aftermarket) EFI system > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 08:27:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA02449 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:27:22 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA02445 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:27:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z17-5-3.sbbs2.net [212.112.5.3]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY9XGQB; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:27:13 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:38:21 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Justin Ivan wrote: > Not sure if I agree with everyting that you are saying. When the > flange is a > single piece, essential all (really just a large portion) of the > expansion > takes place at the ends of the flange, the material in between constrains > the flange from expanding towards the center. When the flange is > separated, > each port can expand in 2 directions, therefore has more flexibility. > If someone can debunk this please do. If the manifold had looked like an ordinary V8 header I wouldn't have anything against using separate flanges, it would be far better then using one large flange. An ordinary header usually has pretty long runners in thin material that are pretty flexible. In my case the distance between the ports are 86mm and the runners are routed the shortest possible way to the runner next to it, turbo exhaust manifolds must also be made from a bit heavier tubes then ordinary headers. To prevent cracking I used high quality tube bends and welded it with electrodes made for the specific material. This makes my manifold very strong, to make the ends of it flex 2mm requires a lot of force. A lot more force then I would trust the manifold studs with. When we use separate flanges the temperature of the tubes in the exhaust manifold decides how long the manifold will be. From room temperature to 700ºC the manifold will grow 4mm. If we use one long flange that is bolted to the head, the temperature of the flange will decide the length of the manifold. Since one side of this flange is bolted to the engine that I guess are 200ºC around the ports, one side are welded to the runners and 80% of its surface are exposed to the air I would guess that it will have a temperature somewhere in the middle of the 200º engine and the 700ºrunners. Hopefully closer to the engine temperature. I think that the flange temperature will be around 250-350ºC. Since the 1/2" thick flange will be a lot stronger then the red hot runners of the manifold it will not be affected much by the runners will to grow 4mm when the flange only has grown 1-2mm, the runners will hopefully take the beating without cracking to often. Since the cylinderhead will grow with temperature too the flange and the head will hopefully grow about the same amount. Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 08:34:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA02516 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:34:35 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA02512 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:34:27 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.93]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010110163426.FUC10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:26 -0500 Message-ID: <013701c07b23$3b325500$5d258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I like Hugh McInnes's way. Particully if using short tubes, then use sleeve fitting of the tubes (or bellows). If long primaries not as critical. Individual flanges, given a few thousand heat cycles can be about impossible to line up. Again, no universal rules about what's best. Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 09:00:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA02861 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:00:26 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f124.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.124]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA02857 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:00:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f124.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.124] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:59:47 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:59:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:59:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 16:59:47.0925 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD2DE850:01C07B26] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I agree a low CR can be a concern w/o boost. It all depends on the application that you are intending. >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:17:40 -0500 > > >Intake valve closing timing is critical, along with overlap. >Just considering CR is falsehood. >You can make more HP by using more boost, but in non boosted situations you >can wind up with a really lame engine. Which brings application into >focus. >Bruce > > > > > > >What kind of high CR are you planning to use? 9 - 9.5 to 1 is about as >high > > >as you can get if you use 102 octane race fuel. With 98 unleaded, 8.5 - >8.8 > > >is probably very high. If you compress more, you'll reach the knock >limit > > >really early under boost and you'll need to set your spark advance to a > > >(much) less than optimal point, negating most of the benefits of > > >turbocharging. > > > > > I have to disagree with the concept of CR and turbos. Yes a lower CR >does > > allow you the ability to run higher boost numbers without retarding >timing > > too much, but I know of at least 2 (there are plenty more) guys that are > > running 1.8L 4 cyl with a stock static CR of 10.0:1. The key is careful > > tuning and a good programmable system. I know that they don't run higher > > then 102 octane fuel, and they are making some good power #'s. That >being > > said it does require very careful tuning. I am building a turbo motor >right > > now (2035cc 4 cyl DOHC) and I plan on running a static CR of 9.0~9.2:1 > > depending on how the head gasket spacer I am using turns out. Going to >run > > this on 92 octane with ~10-14lbs of boost depending on what I can tune >it > > too. Of course I am going for a full programmable (in my case an > > aftermarket) EFI system > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 10:26:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA03569 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:26:58 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f18.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.18]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA03564 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:26:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f18.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.18] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:26:21 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:26:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:26:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 18:26:21.0994 (UTC) FILETIME=[D515F0A0:01C07B32] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If you are insistent on running a single flange then you should enlarge the hole and use a washer as it was suggested. >From: Jörgen Karlsson >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:38:21 +0100 > >Justin Ivan wrote: > > > Not sure if I agree with everyting that you are saying. When the > > flange is a > > single piece, essential all (really just a large portion) of the > > expansion > > takes place at the ends of the flange, the material in between >constrains > > the flange from expanding towards the center. When the flange is > > separated, > > each port can expand in 2 directions, therefore has more flexibility. > > If someone can debunk this please do. > >If the manifold had looked like an ordinary V8 header I wouldn't have >anything against using separate flanges, it would be far better then using >one large flange. An ordinary header usually has pretty long runners in >thin >material that are pretty flexible. > >In my case the distance between the ports are 86mm and the runners are >routed the shortest possible way to the runner next to it, turbo exhaust >manifolds must also be made from a bit heavier tubes then ordinary headers. >To prevent cracking I used high quality tube bends and welded it with >electrodes made for the specific material. > >This makes my manifold very strong, to make the ends of it flex 2mm >requires >a lot of force. A lot more force then I would trust the manifold studs >with. > >When we use separate flanges the temperature of the tubes in the exhaust >manifold decides how long the manifold will be. From room temperature to >700ºC the manifold will grow 4mm. > >If we use one long flange that is bolted to the head, the temperature of >the >flange will decide the length of the manifold. Since one side of this >flange >is bolted to the engine that I guess are 200ºC around the ports, one side >are welded to the runners and 80% of its surface are exposed to the air I >would guess that it will have a temperature somewhere in the middle of the >200º engine and the 700ºrunners. Hopefully closer to the engine >temperature. >I think that the flange temperature will be around 250-350ºC. Since the >1/2" >thick flange will be a lot stronger then the red hot runners of the >manifold >it will not be affected much by the runners will to grow 4mm when the >flange >only has grown 1-2mm, the runners will hopefully take the beating without >cracking to often. > >Since the cylinderhead will grow with temperature too the flange and the >head will hopefully grow about the same amount. > > >Jörgen > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 10:29:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA03603 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:29:28 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f4.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA03598 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:29:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f4.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.4] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:52 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:28:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:28:52 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 18:28:52.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EEC71D0:01C07B33] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I't not familiar with Hugh McInnes but the idea of a slip joint is appealing, my only question is how to keep them from leaking? Bellows would solve this problem but could be difficult to produce. Justin >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:40 -0500 > >I like Hugh McInnes's way. >Particully if using short tubes, then use sleeve fitting of the tubes (or >bellows). >If long primaries not as critical. >Individual flanges, given a few thousand heat cycles can be about >impossible >to line up. >Again, no universal rules about what's best. >Bruce > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 10:43:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA03835 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:43:45 -0800 Received: from mailhost.fotowire.com (www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA03831 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:43:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42] claimed to be mailhost.fotowire.com Received: from xxl [212.47.181.19] by mailhost.fotowire.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id AD593C500C2; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:43:37 +0000 Message-ID: <002c01c07b35$3e75bb00$1401a8c0@gva.fotowire.com> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:43:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >What kind of high CR are you planning to use? 9 - 9.5 to 1 is about as high > >as you can get if you use 102 octane race fuel. With 98 unleaded, 8.5 - 8.8 > >is probably very high. If you compress more, you'll reach the knock limit > >really early under boost and you'll need to set your spark advance to a > >(much) less than optimal point, negating most of the benefits of > >turbocharging. > > > I have to disagree with the concept of CR and turbos. Yes a lower CR does > allow you the ability to run higher boost numbers without retarding timing > too much, but I know of at least 2 (there are plenty more) guys that are > running 1.8L 4 cyl with a stock static CR of 10.0:1. The key is careful > tuning and a good programmable system. Definitely :) > I know that they don't run higher > then 102 octane fuel, and they are making some good power #'s. I get 200hp per 1000cc on a 2000cc engine with 98 fuel and 8.8:1 CR. I reach the knock limit well before MBT as the torque still increases when the engine starts pinging. Some people get up to 275hp per 1000cc on the same type of engine with 7.2:1 CR and the same fuel. What are your numbers with the 10.0:1 engine? > That being > said it does require very careful tuning. I am building a turbo motor right > now (2035cc 4 cyl DOHC) and I plan on running a static CR of 9.0~9.2:1 > depending on how the head gasket spacer I am using turns out. Going to run > this on 92 octane with ~10-14lbs of boost depending on what I can tune it > too. Of course I am going for a full programmable (in my case an > aftermarket) EFI system ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 10:59:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA03957 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:59:06 -0800 Received: from mailhost.fotowire.com (www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA03953 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:59:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42] claimed to be mailhost.fotowire.com Received: from xxl [212.47.181.19] by mailhost.fotowire.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id A0F33C900C2; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:58:59 +0000 Message-ID: <005101c07b37$63ba37e0$1401a8c0@gva.fotowire.com> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:58:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "justin ivan" > > I agree a low CR can be a concern w/o boost. It all depends on the > application that you are intending. Definitely. In the example mentionned, I'd use a much smaller turbo (like perhaps a T2). With a T3 on a 1000cc engine, *plenty* of boost will be available, at the expense of lag. I'd say you'll need a relatively low CR to take advantage of all that boost. Application included road but, more importantly, some hillclimb and sprints where utmost power is critical, and the original author intended to use an anti-lag system. This pretty much defines the application. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 11:16:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA04173 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:16:34 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA04165 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:16:27 -0800 Received: from funnel.qnx.com (funnel.qnx.com [209.226.137.2]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09040 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:15:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:15:27 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=Windows-1252 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id LAA04166 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org and don't use strainless steel. it tends to get sticky and galled when hot and moving Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: { If you are insistent on running a single flange then you should enlarge the { hole and use a washer as it was suggested. { { { >From: Jörgen Karlsson { >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { >To: { >Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. { >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:38:21 +0100 { > { >Justin Ivan wrote: { > { > > Not sure if I agree with everyting that you are saying. When the { > > flange is a { > > single piece, essential all (really just a large portion) of the { > > expansion { > > takes place at the ends of the flange, the material in between { >constrains { > > the flange from expanding towards the center. When the flange is { > > separated, { > > each port can expand in 2 directions, therefore has more flexibility. { > > If someone can debunk this please do. { > { >If the manifold had looked like an ordinary V8 header I wouldn't have { >anything against using separate flanges, it would be far better then using { >one large flange. An ordinary header usually has pretty long runners in { >thin { >material that are pretty flexible. { > { >In my case the distance between the ports are 86mm and the runners are { >routed the shortest possible way to the runner next to it, turbo exhaust { >manifolds must also be made from a bit heavier tubes then ordinary headers. { >To prevent cracking I used high quality tube bends and welded it with { >electrodes made for the specific material. { > { >This makes my manifold very strong, to make the ends of it flex 2mm { >requires { >a lot of force. A lot more force then I would trust the manifold studs { >with. { > { >When we use separate flanges the temperature of the tubes in the exhaust { >manifold decides how long the manifold will be. From room temperature to { >700ºC the manifold will grow 4mm. { > { >If we use one long flange that is bolted to the head, the temperature of { >the { >flange will decide the length of the manifold. Since one side of this { >flange { >is bolted to the engine that I guess are 200ºC around the ports, one side { >are welded to the runners and 80% of its surface are exposed to the air I { >would guess that it will have a temperature somewhere in the middle of the { >200º engine and the 700ºrunners. Hopefully closer to the engine { >temperature. { >I think that the flange temperature will be around 250-350ºC. Since the { >1/2" { >thick flange will be a lot stronger then the red hot runners of the { >manifold { >it will not be affected much by the runners will to grow 4mm when the { >flange { >only has grown 1-2mm, the runners will hopefully take the beating without { >cracking to often. { > { >Since the cylinderhead will grow with temperature too the flange and the { >head will hopefully grow about the same amount. { > { > { >Jörgen { > { >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >quotes) { >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { > { { _________________________________________________________________ { Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 11:27:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA04478 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:27:50 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA04473 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:27:45 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.93]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010110192743.BNKS10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:27:43 -0500 Message-ID: <022701c07b3b$706db9e0$5d258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:27:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A long slip joint with a couple thou clearance, run for a while the Carbon will make it air tight, yet will sllow some slippage, I think it was a 2" sleeve, maybe someone has a copy of the book... The bellows are findable. Bruce > I't not familiar with Hugh McInnes but the idea of a slip joint is > appealing, my only question is how to keep them from leaking? Bellows would > solve this problem but could be difficult to produce. > Justin > > > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. > >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:40 -0500 > > > >I like Hugh McInnes's way. > >Particully if using short tubes, then use sleeve fitting of the tubes (or > >bellows). > >If long primaries not as critical. > >Individual flanges, given a few thousand heat cycles can be about > >impossible > >to line up. > >Again, no universal rules about what's best. > >Bruce > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 12:01:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA05075 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:01:57 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f24.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA05070 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:01:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f24.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.24] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:01:13 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:01:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:01:12 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2001 20:01:13.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[154A5410:01C07B40] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >I get 200hp per 1000cc on a 2000cc engine with 98 fuel and 8.8:1 CR. I >reach >the knock limit well before MBT as the torque still increases when the >engine starts pinging. Some people get up to 275hp per 1000cc on the same >type of engine with 7.2:1 CR and the same fuel. What are your numbers with >the 10.0:1 engine? Hmm I am not sure about exact #'s but let me give some futher background, they are junkyard motors, 130,000+ miles, not headwork, stock cams and bottom end. Junkyard T3 super 60 turbos and a SDS programmable efi. I would estimate from the quarter mile time/MPH that the power is around 330 at the crank, give or take. One of the things to remember and I get in trouble with this myself that it's not so much boost pressure but airflow at that pressure that makes the power. I have an 8:1 turbo motor in a street car and I feel like the bottom end is a little to weak, I would really like to see sometihng closer to 9:1 for the street. Let's take this off-line if you want to discuss more, I'd be interested in hearing more about your set-up Justin Ivan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 13:25:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA06055 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:25:01 -0800 Received: from scotty.nni.com (mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA06051 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100] claimed to be scotty.nni.com Received: from nni.com ([216.107.53.86]) by scotty.nni.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61331U25000L20000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:24:53 -0500 Message-ID: <3A5CD322.A70BBB33@nni.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:24:50 -0500 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. References: <022701c07b3b$706db9e0$5d258fd1@brucescompute> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Book shows a 1/4" - 1/2" gap between the pipe ends with a 1" to 2" of slip fit. Suggested .004" - .005" clearance between inner & outer pipes for mild steel, .005" - .008" for stainless steel. Claims very little leaks as the inner pipe runs hotter then the outer and expands more. Also talks about not insulating the pipes. BobR. Bruce Plecan wrote: > A long slip joint with a couple thou clearance, run for a while the Carbon > will make it air tight, yet will sllow some slippage, I think it was a 2" > sleeve, maybe someone has a copy of the book... > The bellows are findable. > Bruce > > > I't not familiar with Hugh McInnes but the idea of a slip joint is > > appealing, my only question is how to keep them from leaking? Bellows > would > > solve this problem but could be difficult to produce. > > Justin > > > > > > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. > > >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:40 -0500 > > > > > >I like Hugh McInnes's way. > > >Particully if using short tubes, then use sleeve fitting of the tubes (or > > >bellows). > > >If long primaries not as critical. > > >Individual flanges, given a few thousand heat cycles can be about > > >impossible > > >to line up. > > >Again, no universal rules about what's best. > > >Bruce > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 15:42:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA06983 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:42:12 -0800 Received: from smtpout.ev1.net (smtpout.ev1.net [207.218.192.19]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA06979 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:42:06 -0800 Received: from ev1.net [216.12.211.148] by smtpout.ev1.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A354B470128; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:42:12 -0600 Message-ID: <3A5CF347.28BE5CB0@ev1.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:41:59 -0600 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: DeathStar Dumpsters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control References: <200101091612.IAA27646@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Then again in America we have to have a license to drive, a license to > hunt.... > maybe we should have a license to pro-create. > We do. It is called a marriage license. However, it is not mandatory. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 16:11:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA07363 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:11:47 -0800 Received: from cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.177]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA07359 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:11:39 -0800 Received: from modem-664.curlew.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.146.152] helo=o1y3y2) by cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14GVL6-0001U0-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:11:37 +0000 Message-ID: <00c401c07b62$eaa3f900$0490893e@o1y3y2> From: "TVS" To: References: Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:54:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Thanks for the replies. Perhaps I should go into a bit more detail as to what I'm looking for and how I think I can achieve it. The car is a 1970 MG Midget which will weigh about 1200lbs. I've heard that a T3 on one of these engines wouldn't start making boost until around 4000rpm, the cam I've got is a "Sport" which give max torque at about 3,500 rpm and max power at around 6,500rpm assuming std sized valves/ports. This together with a CR of around 9.5:1 and using 98 'super unleaded' should give reasonable performance off boost...during normal road use. I need adequate torque between 2000 and 3000 rpm, which this should provide, to allow an overdrive to be used giving 20mph per 1000rpm. I'm also planing on using a large, separate, EGR valve to bypass the exhaust around the turbo to reduce back-pressure during cruse. In all, I think this should give very good economy. Once past 4000rpm it should start to make boost, which will be varied to keep the torque at around 80/85lbsft all the way up to around 8,000/8,500rpm.... asuming it doesn't knock at 4000rpm/85lbstf then I don't see why it should at 8,500rpm? (But I'm probably wrong!) So it should make 120-140Hp. Boost regulation, retarted igniton, and perhaps water injection, would be used to try and give the best power curve. This is the sort of rpm range that would be used for hill climbing and sprints.... and overtaking on the road! It seems that useing a large throttle bodey to recirculate the air thought the turbo during gearchanges would be the easiest way to reduce lag. I wounder if air could also be circulated below, say, 3,800rpm then the the buterfly progresivly shut.... turbo lag would also be reduced when when accelerating past this point? Please excuse my ignorance, but I was unaware that exhuast header design was particulary important on a turbo engine! Is it posible to take advantage of tuned lengths? (I'll seach the arcives) Most turbo headers I've seen are very crude, cast, and contain almost right angle bends! Many thanks, Toby ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 16:43:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA07597 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:43:13 -0800 Received: from mailhost.fotowire.com (www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA07593 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:43:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42] claimed to be mailhost.fotowire.com Received: from xxl [212.47.181.19] by mailhost.fotowire.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id A199FE00B8; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:43:05 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c07b67$75b1d310$1401a8c0@gva.fotowire.com> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:43:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Hmm I am not sure about exact #'s but let me give some futher background, > they are junkyard motors, 130,000+ miles, not headwork, stock cams and > bottom end. Junkyard T3 super 60 turbos and a SDS programmable efi. I would > estimate from the quarter mile time/MPH that the power is around 330 at the > crank, give or take. > One of the things to remember and I get in trouble with this myself that > it's not so much boost pressure but airflow at that pressure that makes the > power. >From what I understand, the airflow scales pretty much linearly with the pressure, for all practical purposes. The point of diminishing returns is when you have to retard and move away from MBT because of knock. > I have an 8:1 turbo motor in a street car and I feel like the bottom end is > a little to weak, I would really like to see sometihng closer to 9:1 for the > street. ..or maybe a smaller turbine housing? > Let's take this off-line if you want to discuss more, I'd be interested in > hearing more about your set-up Sure. --Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 17:14:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA07825 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:14:40 -0800 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (ains.net.au [210.9.53.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA07821 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:14:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ains.net.au [210.9.53.3] claimed to be dalek.ains.net.au Received: from joe (pgw230.ains.net.au [202.61.243.230]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10975 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:14:30 +1100 Message-ID: <00af01c07b6b$3271a680$e6f33dca@joe> From: "Joe Beninca" To: References: <00c401c07b62$eaa3f900$0490893e@o1y3y2> Subject: Re: turbo lag... Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:09:49 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Thursday, 11 January 2001 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Exhaust manifold importance Exhaust manifold design is as important on a turbo engine as a normally aspirated one. Eg www.beninca.com.au/turbo_charging.htm Also the race winning Ford Sierra Cosworth turbo had a similar design. In the examples above ,turbo lag is reduced. Joe > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 18:43:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA08590 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:43:45 -0800 Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA08585 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:43:38 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010111024327.JOUO21590.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:43:27 -0800 Message-ID: <004201c07b91$99083460$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:44:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Latest version (2nd) of his book is available as ISBN # 0-89586-135-6 . Pretty decent reading. Covers a pretty broad spectrum in layman's terms. A bit dated. Walt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin ivan" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. > I't not familiar with Hugh McInnes but the idea of a slip joint is > appealing, my only question is how to keep them from leaking? Bellows would > solve this problem but could be difficult to produce. > Justin > > > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. > >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:40 -0500 > > > >I like Hugh McInnes's way. > >Particully if using short tubes, then use sleeve fitting of the tubes (or > >bellows). > >If long primaries not as critical. > >Individual flanges, given a few thousand heat cycles can be about > >impossible > >to line up. > >Again, no universal rules about what's best. > >Bruce > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 20:06:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA09487 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:06:55 -0800 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA09483 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:06:17 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool1091.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.168.71] (may be forged)) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA24362 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:06:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4120011411492760@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: The Math Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:9:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I had a link to a site that had a bunch of calculators for converting things (like 30 lb injectors to gm/sec, etc), I can not find it. anyone have such a source? thanks --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com --- 71-91 RS Camaro ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 10 21:49:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA09934 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:49:50 -0800 Received: from mail.starstreamcable.net (mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA09929 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:49:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4] claimed to be mail.starstreamcable.net Received: from computer ([63.200.79.44]) by mail.starstreamcable.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 605-57038U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:07 -0800 Message-ID: <00db01c07b92$23b6d440$2c4fc83f@computer> From: romans@starstream.net (Romans, Mark) To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs stated that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't very stable and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride quality but to make the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as easily. When the dropped the tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with the tire pressure raised it was not stable enough. That's why I would sell a jeep or other really capable off road vehicle before allowing my kids to drive it because by design what makes a vehicle capable off road makes it less stable on road. (Narrow track, High CG). Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 00:46:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA10517 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:46:19 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA10513 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:46:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z4-1-212.sbbs2.net [212.112.1.212]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY9X32J; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:46:06 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Turbo manifold design. Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:57:15 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Justin Ivan wrote: > I't not familiar with Hugh McInnes but the idea of a slip joint is > appealing, my only question is how to keep them from leaking? > Bellows would > solve this problem but could be difficult to produce. The original plan was to use slip joints at the outer runners, but with the large radius bends I used there wasn't any room for them. If you check this 3D sketch you see a slipjoint using a labyrinth seal, these can be made shorter then the ordinary type. http://www7.ewebcity.com/jurgmannen/junk/slipjoint.jpg I have some pictures of the exhaust manifold on my site: http://quattro.xrs.net Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 02:41:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA11252 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:41:10 -0800 Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA11247 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:40:55 -0800 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V5.1-12 #24705) id <01JYROA551GW0000GS@UALR.EDU> for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:40:52 CDT Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:16:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: off topic / traction control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-id: <868684.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: Maximum Overdrive Racing Engines * Jacksonville AR USA MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org -> The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs -> stated that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't -> very stable and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride -> quality but to make the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as -> easily. When the dropped the -> tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with -> the tire pressure -> raised it was not stable enough. Even allowing that story is true, so what? It shows that Ford did test the vehicle, that they found a problem (surely they find problems with some regularity, or they wouldn't bother to test, would they?) and they came up with a fix for that problem. There have been lots of cars very sensitive to tire pressure. The Chrysler K-cars could easily be rolled over if the front tires were underinflated; there was even a big media flap over it. Hell, I *saw* one do it once. Before that, the Corvair used different tire pressures front and back. Ford can't be held responsible for people driving around with under- or over- inflated tires, any more than they can be responsible for the same idiots hitting other cars or stationary objects. Most drivers are absolute morons anyway. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 04:36:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA11864 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:36:14 -0800 Received: from scotty.nni.com (mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA11860 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:36:08 -0800 From: rrauscher@nni.com X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100] claimed to be scotty.nni.com Received: from nni.com ([216.107.0.229]) by scotty.nni.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61331U25000L20000S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:36:07 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:36:07 -500 Subject: Re: The Math Message-id: <3a5da8b7.23f.0@nni.com> X-User-Info: 208.209.44.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On incoming there is: miscmath.xls (or .zip). This has a bunch of calcs that Jason put together. Recently I was looking for Bowlings site, couldn't seem to find it. BobR. >I had a link to a site that had a bunch of calculators for converting >things (like 30 lb injectors to gm/sec, etc), I can not find it. anyone >have such a source? > >thanks > > >--- Bob Wooten >--- r71chevy@earthlink.net >--- www.r71camaro.homestead.com >--- 71-91 RS Camaro > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 05:08:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA12099 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:08:43 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA12094 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:08:37 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 11 Jan 2001 13:08:37 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:08:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:08:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'd be interested to see that document. -----Original Message----- From: romans@starstream.net [mailto:romans@starstream.net] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 12:49 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs stated that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't very stable and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride quality but to make the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as easily. When the dropped the tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with the tire pressure raised it was not stable enough. That's why I would sell a jeep or other really capable off road vehicle before allowing my kids to drive it because by design what makes a vehicle capable off road makes it less stable on road. (Narrow track, High CG). Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 05:11:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA12139 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:11:26 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA12135 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:11:20 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 11 Jan 2001 13:11:20 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:11:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:11:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org My brother rolled his K car, it's true. -----Original Message----- From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us [mailto:dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:16 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control There have been lots of cars very sensitive to tire pressure. The Chrysler K-cars could easily be rolled over if the front tires were underinflated; there was even a big media flap over it. Hell, I *saw* one do it once. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 07:13:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA12845 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:13:04 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA12841 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:12:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.78]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:55:28 -0700 Message-ID: <002e01c07be0$fa251980$4e69bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <00db01c07b92$23b6d440$2c4fc83f@computer> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:12:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hmmm....that seems ag'nst all logic. Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction and the result is also instability . They had balance harmonics in those things that resulted in the inability to get the vibration out of the chassis at 34 psi pressure. They found that lowered tire pressure took out the vibes--and gave you a smooooth ride. Unfortunately--this also creates more tire heat. Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: Romans, Mark To: Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:48 PM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs stated > that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't very stable > and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride quality but to make > the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as easily. When the dropped > the > tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with the > tire pressure > raised it was not stable enough. > > That's why I would sell a jeep or other really capable off road vehicle > before allowing > my kids to drive it because by design what makes a vehicle capable off road > makes it less stable on road. > (Narrow track, High CG). > Mark > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 07:14:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA12857 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:14:17 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA12853 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:14:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.78]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:40 -0700 Message-ID: <004801c07be1$256e0840$4e69bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <3a5da8b7.23f.0@nni.com> Subject: Re: The Math Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:14:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Isn't the link still on DIY ?? Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 5:36 AM Subject: Re: The Math > > On incoming there is: miscmath.xls (or .zip). This has > a bunch of calcs that Jason put together. Recently I was > looking for Bowlings site, couldn't seem to find it. > > BobR. > > > >I had a link to a site that had a bunch of calculators for converting > >things (like 30 lb injectors to gm/sec, etc), I can not find it. anyone > >have such a source? > > > >thanks > > > > > >--- Bob Wooten > >--- r71chevy@earthlink.net > >--- www.r71camaro.homestead.com > >--- 71-91 RS Camaro > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 08:08:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA13346 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:08:00 -0800 Received: from scotty.nni.com (mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA13342 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:07:53 -0800 From: rrauscher@nni.com X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.nunet.com [216.107.0.100] claimed to be scotty.nni.com Received: from nni.com ([216.107.0.229]) by scotty.nni.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61331U25000L20000S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:07:51 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:07:52 -500 Subject: Re: The Math Message-id: <3a5dda58.20d.0@nni.com> X-User-Info: 208.209.44.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yep, first one on the list at that! BobR. >Isn't the link still on DIY ?? > >Lyndon >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 5:36 AM >Subject: Re: The Math > > >> >> On incoming there is: miscmath.xls (or .zip). This has >> a bunch of calcs that Jason put together. Recently I was >> looking for Bowlings site, couldn't seem to find it. >> >> BobR. >> >> >> >I had a link to a site that had a bunch of calculators for converting >> >things (like 30 lb injectors to gm/sec, etc), I can not find it. anyone >> >have such a source? >> > >> >thanks >> > >> > >> >--- Bob Wooten >> >--- r71chevy@earthlink.net >> >--- www.r71camaro.homestead.com >> >--- 71-91 RS Camaro >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 08:42:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA13661 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:42:12 -0800 Received: from mail.starstreamcable.net (mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA13657 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:42:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4] claimed to be mail.starstreamcable.net Received: from computer ([63.200.79.44]) by mail.starstreamcable.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 605-57038U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:40:39 -0800 Message-ID: <007501c07bed$49a21b00$2c4fc83f@computer> From: romans@starstream.net (Romans, Mark) To: References: <868684.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:41:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I didn't write the document. Granted most people are moron's. (At least about cars) I suspect that we have a seriously below average number of automotive moron's on this list due to it's subject matter. I wasn't implying any fault on anyone's part. Crap like this taints the whole auto industry in the eyes of consumer activists. I work for GM, I have done many "1241 Investigations" (Alleged product liability investigations" Any idea how many times I found something wrong with the car (When an accident was involved?) ZERO! (Non accidents are another story in some cases!) Mark http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/tiresfrd000820.html I'd be interested to see that document. Hmmm....that seems ag'nst all logic. Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction and the result is also instability . They had balance harmonics in those things that resulted in the inability to get the vibration out of the chassis at 34 psi pressure. They found that lowered tire pressure took out the vibes--and gave you a smooooth ride. Unfortunately--this also creates more tire heat. Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Williams" To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 1:16 AM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > -> The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs > -> stated that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't > -> very stable and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride > -> quality but to make the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as > -> easily. When the dropped the > -> tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with > -> the tire pressure > -> raised it was not stable enough. > > Even allowing that story is true, so what? It shows that Ford did test > the vehicle, that they found a problem (surely they find problems with > some regularity, or they wouldn't bother to test, would they?) and they > came up with a fix for that problem. > > There have been lots of cars very sensitive to tire pressure. The > Chrysler K-cars could easily be rolled over if the front tires were > underinflated; there was even a big media flap over it. Hell, I *saw* > one do it once. Before that, the Corvair used different tire pressures > front and back. > > Ford can't be held responsible for people driving around with under- or > over- inflated tires, any more than they can be responsible for the same > idiots hitting other cars or stationary objects. Most drivers are > absolute morons anyway. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 08:45:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA13713 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:45:45 -0800 Received: from mail.starstreamcable.net (mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA13709 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:45:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.windkeeper.com [206.170.160.4] claimed to be mail.starstreamcable.net Received: from computer ([63.200.79.44]) by mail.starstreamcable.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 605-57038U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:44:14 -0800 Message-ID: <007b01c07bed$ca071020$2c4fc83f@computer> From: romans@starstream.net (Romans, Mark) To: References: <00db01c07b92$23b6d440$2c4fc83f@computer> <002e01c07be0$fa251980$4e69bfce@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:44:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have found that it doesn't always follow logic. Spend some time in a car with an EVA, Electronic Vibration Analysis tool and you'll see. Lowering tire pressure in some cases makes a car not feel as smooth. The eva will still show the same normal road vibration magnitude, however raising the tire pressure raises the frequency so your buns don't feel it as much. (My experience on one type of vehicle). Also if you read the Ford doc or any document that explains turning, not drag strip racing, lower the tire pressure decreases the grip at the end of the vehicle that the tire pressure is being lowered on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Programmer" To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > Hmmm....that seems ag'nst all logic. Normally, you lower tire pressure for > traction and the result is also instability . They had balance harmonics > in those things that resulted in the inability to get the vibration out of > the chassis at 34 psi pressure. They found that lowered tire pressure took > out the vibes--and gave you a smooooth ride. Unfortunately--this also > creates more tire heat. > > Lyndon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Romans, Mark > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:48 PM > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs stated > > that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't very stable > > and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride quality but to make > > the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as easily. When the dropped > > the > > tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with the > > tire pressure > > raised it was not stable enough. > > > > That's why I would sell a jeep or other really capable off road vehicle > > before allowing > > my kids to drive it because by design what makes a vehicle capable off > road > > makes it less stable on road. > > (Narrow track, High CG). > > Mark > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 11:30:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA15199 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:30:59 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA15195 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:30:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.67]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:13:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c07c05$01a14200$4369bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <00db01c07b92$23b6d440$2c4fc83f@computer> <002e01c07be0$fa251980$4e69bfce@oemcomputer> <007b01c07bed$ca071020$2c4fc83f@computer> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:00:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I have found that it doesn't always follow logic. Spend some time > in a car with an EVA, Electronic Vibration Analysis tool and you'll see. Wish I had an EVA...someday perhaps. > Lowering tire pressure in some cases makes a car not feel as smooth. The Ford TSB's refer to harshness--first step is lowering tire pressure. > The eva will still show the same normal road vibration magnitude, however > raising the tire pressure raises the frequency so your buns don't feel it as > much. (My experience on one type of vehicle). Yes--there's a change in frequency--sometimes it just raises the vibration speed. Fords' fix is either an exhaust change or shock absorber change. Found that rather interesting as I read further into the 4 door and 2 door problem on the '91+ Explorer. > Also if you read the Ford doc or any document that explains turning, not > drag strip racing, lower the tire pressure decreases the grip at the end > of the vehicle that the tire pressure is being lowered on. Well--yeah...the tire face is distorted and deflected. The sidewall flexes more than normal, and I can't see how the centre of gravity is better-I guess I'd have to see their tests. I just find it strange. Thanks Mark !! Lyndon. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Programmer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 7:12 AM > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > Hmmm....that seems ag'nst all logic. Normally, you lower tire pressure for > > traction and the result is also instability . They had balance > harmonics > > in those things that resulted in the inability to get the vibration out > of > > the chassis at 34 psi pressure. They found that lowered tire pressure took > > out the vibes--and gave you a smooooth ride. Unfortunately--this also > > creates more tire heat. > > > > Lyndon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Romans, Mark > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:48 PM > > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > > > > The newspaper article I read stated that the internal Ford Docs stated > > > that Ford's own internal testing showed the Explorer wasn't very stable > > > and that Ford decreased the tire pressure not for ride quality but to > make > > > the tires have less grip so it wouldn't roll as easily. When the > dropped > > > the > > > tire pressure it would pass Ford's own internal stability test, with the > > > tire pressure > > > raised it was not stable enough. > > > > > > That's why I would sell a jeep or other really capable off road vehicle > > > before allowing > > > my kids to drive it because by design what makes a vehicle capable off > > road > > > makes it less stable on road. > > > (Narrow track, High CG). > > > Mark > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 13:42:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA16315 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:42:15 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA16311 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:42:09 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.212]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010111214208.LWQM10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:42:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01ff01c07c17$631841c0$d40ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <868684.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:42:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > There have been lots of cars very sensitive to tire pressure. The > Chrysler K-cars could easily be rolled over if the front tires were > underinflated; there was even a big media flap over it. Hell, I *saw* > one do it once. Before that, the Corvair used different tire pressures > front and back. K-Cars, they make the SUVs look like sports cars. What a poor idea those were. I drove one once, and as soon as possible got the hell away from it. Wonder how many people were killed in those just changing lanes. Course does help with the Darwin effect Bruce > Ford can't be held responsible for people driving around with under- or > over- inflated tires, any more than they can be responsible for the same > idiots hitting other cars or stationary objects. Most drivers are > absolute morons anyway. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 15:09:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA16724 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:09:11 -0800 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA16720 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:09:04 -0800 Received: from modem-19.auriga-butterfly.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.225.19]) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14Gqq6-000733-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:09:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:09:21 +0000 From: Chris Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <88169397290.20010111230921@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: TVS Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... In-reply-To: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Wednesday, January 10, 2001, 12:09:50 AM, you wrote: > I know it's a bit of topic and I know it's been discussed many times > before (read the archives!) but I would appreciate some advice. > I'm planing on turbocharging a Hillman Imp engine (a 930cc SOHC) with a T3 > Garrett, which is bit on the large side for the engine. An intercooler would > also be used. The boost will be electronically controlled to slightly > increase and flatten the torque curve. This is to keep the head gasket in > one piece, allow a high static CR to be used and increase the toque at high > rpm to make as much power as possible. I'm hoping to allow the engine to > usefully rev to 8,500 rpm. My experiences with the Imp engine is the head gasket, even the Reinz one, is marginal under N/A conditions, the ONLY way you'll keep the seal is to use Wills rings and an outer water/oil sealing gasket. These are still relatively easily sourced here in the UK. -- Best regards, Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 15:34:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA16996 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:34:10 -0800 Received: from smtp07.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id PAA16992 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:34:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73] claimed to be smtp07.mail.onemain.com Received: (qmail 25215 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2001 23:05:36 -0000 Received: from i48-24-45.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO noname.nodomain.nowhere) ([216.26.7.237]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.37 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2001 23:05:36 -0000 From: Guy Hammer Organization: unlikely at best To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Bowlings (was Re: The Math) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:00:43 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.17] Content-Type: text/plain References: <3a5da8b7.23f.0@nni.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01011115052701.13129@noname.nodomain.nowhere> X-KMail-Mark: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id PAA16993 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, rrauscher@nni.com writes: > Recently I was looking for Bowlings site, couldn't seem to find it. According to the note at bestintexas.com its been moved to: http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html However, that site appears to be down when I checked just now. DNS resolves the url (216.147.28.49) but ping fails. -- Guy Hammer, guyh@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~guyh -- 3:00pm up 4 days, 19:09, 4 users, load average: 1.02, 1.06, 1.02 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 15:39:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA17090 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:39:24 -0800 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA17085 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:39:17 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010111233821.SRZF20641.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:38:21 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01c07c41$03d9d5a0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> <88169397290.20010111230921@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:40:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What's a Wills ring? Walt. > > My experiences with the Imp engine is the head gasket, even the Reinz > one, is marginal under N/A conditions, the ONLY way you'll keep the seal > is to use Wills rings and an outer water/oil sealing gasket. These are > still relatively easily sourced here in the UK. > > -- > Best regards, > Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk > http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 16:49:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA17439 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:49:00 -0800 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (mail12.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.215]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA17435 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:48:52 -0800 Received: from modem-105.aranel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.119.105]) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14GsOg-0003iF-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:48:51 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:49:10 +0000 From: Chris Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <33175386151.20010112004910@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: Walter Sherwin Subject: Re[2]: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... In-reply-To: <00ad01c07c41$03d9d5a0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> <88169397290.20010111230921@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> <00ad01c07c41$03d9d5a0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Friday, January 12, 2001, 2:40:24 AM, you wrote: > What's a Wills ring? > Walt. Inert gas filled hollow ring set in a machined circumferential groove around the liners. Usually a stainless steel ring. This ring provides the combustion gas seal, a soft gasket around the head to block mating seals oil and water ways. A plain round section wire ring is more common, the Wills ring is better, but a lot more expensive. Wills rings have been used in the UK on Imp engines for decades. -- Best regards, Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 18:28:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA18021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:28:54 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f287.hotmail.com [216.32.180.141]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA18017 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:28:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host law2-f287.hotmail.com [216.32.180.141] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:28:16 -0800 Received: from 207.90.113.130 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:28:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.90.113.130] From: "Robert Ward" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Turbo manifold design. Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:28:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2001 02:28:16.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[520447D0:01C07C3F] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Jorgen, it's my understanding that "any" header design that uses a single thick flange the length of the head will seal better and stay flatter across its length than an individual runner/flange header design. Yours, Robert Ward >From: Jörgen Karlsson >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Turbo manifold design. >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:04:32 +0100 > >Hi! > >I am sorry for wasting the bandwidh, but I know many of you guys know a lot >about this subject. > >I have built a new manifold for my car, the stock manifolds are no good. >They crack and snap the header studs. The stock manifold has separate >flanges for each runner. > >Should I use separate flanges or should I use one large flange? > >The flange will only be in contact with the head on a small surface around >the ports. > >Jörgen Karlsson >Gothenburg, Sweden > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 11 20:23:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA18782 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:23:20 -0800 Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA18778 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:23:09 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0959.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.153.194]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA22937 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:23:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <412001151242624940@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Donna Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Bowlings (was Re: The Math) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:26:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org thank you gents. I could not find any link to anything that said bowlings except for one in the oem systems & parts => bosch systems => lots of bosch stuff => miscellaneous => bowling calcs, but this link did not work. the one that Guy provided below did work & it is different than the one that is on the page above (it is http://sural.jlaburg/~grippo/auto_noframe.html). anywho, thanks again. both the spread shee & what is @ the bowling & grippo site is what i am looking for. Bob Wooten > [Original Message] > From: Guy Hammer > To: > Date: 1/11/01 3:35:48 PM > Subject: Bowlings (was Re: The Math) > > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, rrauscher@nni.com writes: > > Recently I was looking for Bowlings site, couldn't seem to find it. > > According to the note at bestintexas.com its been moved to: > > http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html > > However, that site appears to be down when I checked just now. DNS > resolves the url (216.147.28.49) but ping fails. > -- > Guy Hammer, guyh@teleport.com > http://www.teleport.com/~guyh > -- > 3:00pm up 4 days, 19:09, 4 users, load average: 1.02, 1.06, 1.02 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Donna Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 01:55:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA20112 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:55:26 -0800 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA20108 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:55:11 -0800 Received: from nicos (p50-max2.dun.ihug.co.nz [203.173.236.114]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA12638 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:55:02 +1300 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p50-max2.dun.ihug.co.nz [203.173.236.114] claimed to be nicos Message-ID: <002801c07c7d$d57d78a0$72ecadcb@nicos> From: "Nicholas Parker" To: Subject: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:55:44 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, How are TPS & MAP combined to form the 'LOAD" estimating variable in some EFI systems? Does this techinque only apply to cars where the camshafts have overlap resulting in low vacuum (as in closer to atmospheric pressure than absolute vacuum!) at low engine speeds? What is a good way of implementing this kind of control? How do you implement this when you have a 3d RPM vs MAP table for you basic fuel 'calculation' ? Why would you want as well I guess!? Cheers, Nick Parker. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 02:32:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA20268 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:32:38 -0800 Received: from ukxslf01.twr.co.uk (ntas7.kbdd.co.uk [195.70.68.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA20263 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:32:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ntas7.kbdd.co.uk [195.70.68.3] claimed to be ukxslf01.twr.co.uk Received: by UKXSLF01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:30:04 -0000 Message-ID: <676B13ECA86ED411B4EC00508BAC11F4586F64@UKXSLF01> From: "Murphy, Ian" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:30:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org 'LOAD' is usually calculated using values for such parameters as volumetric efficiency tables, manifold filling models, engine acceleration, even gear ratios. For example LOAD would be greater if you're dragging a trailer up a hill at 3000rpm 3rd gear WOT 100kPa MAP, than for passing through 3000rpm in 1st gear WOT 100kPa MAP as you leave the traffic lights. A 3d RPM vs MAP table is just that - TPS or LOAD don't come into it, so strictly speaking you can't use it to implement a LOAD based fuelling calc. All you are doing is estimating an 'AIR CHARGE' value based on RPM and air density, then looking up a fuel pulse width to get your desired AFR. The true air charge depends primarily on inlet manifold dynamics and charge temperature, with other secondary factors. Mapping on a dyno / rolling road should get you 95% of the way there, and you could try getting data on the volumetric efficiency of your engine if you need to calculate some base values for your map. Hope this helps... Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicholas Parker [SMTP:nrparker@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:56 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI > > Hi, > How are TPS & MAP combined to form the 'LOAD" estimating variable > in > some EFI systems? Does this techinque only apply to cars where the > camshafts have overlap resulting in low vacuum (as in closer to > atmospheric > pressure than absolute vacuum!) at low engine speeds? What is a good way > of > implementing this kind of control? How do you implement this when you > have > a 3d RPM vs MAP table for you basic fuel 'calculation' ? Why would you > want > as well I guess!? > > Cheers, Nick Parker. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 07:04:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA21430 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:04:28 -0800 Received: from exchange_obv.orga.nl (mail.orga.nl [193.67.112.130]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA21426 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:04:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.orga.nl [193.67.112.130] claimed to be exchange_obv.orga.nl Received: by EXCHANGE_OBV with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:58:48 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jeroen Proveniers To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: advantages of electronic throttle Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:58:46 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org As the subject says... JJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 09:08:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA00599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:08:54 -0800 Received: from slinky.snni.com (root@slinky.valesh.com [208.137.230.55] (may be forged)) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA00585 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:08:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@slinky.valesh.com [208.137.230.55] (may be forged) claimed to be slinky.snni.com Received: from mystery.milleredp.com (mystery.milleredp.com [205.178.110.162]) by slinky.snni.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA29555 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:22:00 -0800 Received: from tortilla.milleredp.com (tortilla.milleredp.com [205.178.110.181]) by mystery.milleredp.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01790 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:43:29 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:43:08 -0800 From: John Edward Miller To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Message-ID: <32845207.979285388@tortilla.milleredp.com> In-Reply-To: <200101120900.BAA19697@hektor.valesh.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 09:08:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA00600 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:08:57 -0800 Received: from slinky.snni.com (root@slinky.valesh.com [208.137.230.55] (may be forged)) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA00591 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:08:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@slinky.valesh.com [208.137.230.55] (may be forged) claimed to be slinky.snni.com Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by slinky.snni.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA30026 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:27:57 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for slinky.valesh.com [208.137.230.55]) with SMTP; 12 Jan 2001 16:27:57 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:17:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Load IS MAP. they're interchangable. At least as far as most controllers care. -----Original Message----- From: Murphy, Ian [mailto:Ian.Murphy@Arrows.com] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:30 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI 'LOAD' is usually calculated using values for such parameters as volumetric efficiency tables, manifold filling models, engine acceleration, even gear ratios. For example LOAD would be greater if you're dragging a trailer up a hill at 3000rpm 3rd gear WOT 100kPa MAP, than for passing through 3000rpm in 1st gear WOT 100kPa MAP as you leave the traffic lights. A 3d RPM vs MAP table is just that - TPS or LOAD don't come into it, so strictly speaking you can't use it to implement a LOAD based fuelling calc. All you are doing is estimating an 'AIR CHARGE' value based on RPM and air density, then looking up a fuel pulse width to get your desired AFR. The true air charge depends primarily on inlet manifold dynamics and charge temperature, with other secondary factors. Mapping on a dyno / rolling road should get you 95% of the way there, and you could try getting data on the volumetric efficiency of your engine if you need to calculate some base values for your map. Hope this helps... Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicholas Parker [SMTP:nrparker@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:56 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI > > Hi, > How are TPS & MAP combined to form the 'LOAD" estimating variable > in > some EFI systems? Does this techinque only apply to cars where the > camshafts have overlap resulting in low vacuum (as in closer to > atmospheric > pressure than absolute vacuum!) at low engine speeds? What is a good way > of > implementing this kind of control? How do you implement this when you > have > a 3d RPM vs MAP table for you basic fuel 'calculation' ? Why would you > want > as well I guess!? > > Cheers, Nick Parker. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 10:16:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA01129 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:16:02 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA01125 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:15:56 -0800 Received: from funnel.qnx.com (funnel.qnx.com [209.226.137.2]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23549 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:15:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:15:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: off topic / traction control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org depends on the car, the tire, and the rim size. In most of the cars I've driven 40 psi wont let the outside edges of the tire contact the road. For example at 36 psi 215/70/15 tires on a 92 tracker 2 door only the center inch was touching the road ( measured using the puddle method) and the car was scary. On a 87 Subaru 4dr 4x4 sedan 36 psi gave about the same contact patch. The best tire pressure is a trade off between wear, and traction, and ride. The tire maker sets a pressure that makes the tire last longer on the test stand, to automakers give the pressure for best economy with handling factored in as small part. The only solid rule I've found is that you have to test. Previously, you (John Edward Miller) wrote: { > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction { { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 10:54:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA01784 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:54:12 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA01763 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:53:41 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.95]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010112182921.UFQC10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:29:21 -0500 Message-ID: <018401c07cc5$a102f120$5f258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:29:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org That covers it in my book to Bruce > The only solid rule I've found is that you have to test. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 11:16:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02545 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:16:55 -0800 Received: from server.basnmo.tel.gte.com ([143.91.247.96]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA21087 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:36:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [143.91.247.96] claimed to be server.basnmo.tel.gte.com Received: from earthlink.net ([143.91.247.96]) by server.basnmo.tel.gte.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:36:07 -0600 Message-ID: <3A5F1651.F3D7ED6A@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:36:01 -0600 From: Gabe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI References: <002801c07c7d$d57d78a0$72ecadcb@nicos> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org You mean like the Electromotive Blend software? I believe it only applies to vehicles that don't produce much vacuum at low RPMs. I have this setup on my Vette, when not applied the MAP reading is very high and unstable in the low RPMs. When I apply the TPS blending, which tapers off as the RPMs rise, the KPA value lowers to a more "normal" level and smooths out dramatically. What it is actually doing is just averaging a percentage of the voltage from the TPS with the MAP to fake the ECM into thinking it's getting a stable signal from the MAP, so it shouldn't interfere with your 3d table, as the signal appears to only be coming from the MAP. Gabe Nicholas Parker wrote: > Hi, > How are TPS & MAP combined to form the 'LOAD" estimating variable in > some EFI systems? Does this techinque only apply to cars where the > camshafts have overlap resulting in low vacuum (as in closer to atmospheric > pressure than absolute vacuum!) at low engine speeds? What is a good way of > implementing this kind of control? How do you implement this when you have > a 3d RPM vs MAP table for you basic fuel 'calculation' ? Why would you want > as well I guess!? > > Cheers, Nick Parker. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ----- End of forwarded message from owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 11:17:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02576 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:17:21 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA01061 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:08:37 -0800 Received: from funnel.qnx.com (funnel.qnx.com [209.226.137.2]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28009 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:07:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:07:49 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: advantages of electronic throttle To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=Windows-1252 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Very few for skilled drivers, BUT lets future darwin nominees drive faster cars?? Previously, you (Jeroen Proveniers) wrote: { As the subject says... { { JJ { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ----- End of forwarded message from owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 11:49:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA03280 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:49:27 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA03268 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:49:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:49:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: John Edward Miller [mailto:jem@milleredp.com] > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction > > > Not cornering traction, not on street tires. Best grip > ~40-46psi in most > cases. > > John. Are we talking strip or roadcourse use? There's a difference in which direction you go, and I'd hope that everyone here can figure that one out. For what it's worth, my '96 Impala likes about 48 psi up front for autocross use. Even at that pressure, I can still get the first 1" or so of sidewall to scrub if I'm really pushing it. Back to your regularly-scheduled EFI... Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 13:33:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA04329 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:33:50 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA04323 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:33:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.94]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:16:08 -0700 Message-ID: <007101c07cdf$53135120$5e69bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:33:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Thankyou--at least there's another racer out there ... EFI content--anyone converted a 2.8V6 TBI to 4.3 lately ?? Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Bryant To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: off topic / traction control > > From: John Edward Miller [mailto:jem@milleredp.com] > > Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > > > > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction > > > > > > > Not cornering traction, not on street tires. Best grip > > ~40-46psi in most > > cases. > > > > John. > > > Are we talking strip or roadcourse use? There's a difference in which > direction you go, and I'd hope that everyone here can figure that one out. > > For what it's worth, my '96 Impala likes about 48 psi up front for autocross > use. Even at that pressure, I can still get the first 1" or so of sidewall > to scrub if I'm really pushing it. > > Back to your regularly-scheduled EFI... > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 14:21:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA04946 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:21:32 -0800 Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA04942 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:21:26 -0800 Received: from toque.cisco.com (toque.cisco.com [161.44.208.153]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08910 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from edenbroe-nt.cisco.com ([161.44.215.158]) by toque.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AAT76383; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:20:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112171651.00d88a80@toque.cisco.com> X-Sender: edenbroe@toque.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:21:25 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "den Broeder, Ernst" Subject: Re: off topic / traction control In-Reply-To: <007101c07cdf$53135120$5e69bfce@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Which part? I've upgraded my 2.8tbi to a 4.3tbi 1227747 controller... is that what you are referring to? Ernst At 02:33 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >Thankyou--at least there's another racer out there ... > >EFI content--anyone converted a 2.8V6 TBI to 4.3 lately ?? > >Lyndon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 15:45:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA05704 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:45:41 -0800 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA05698 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:45:35 -0800 Received: from cr938302a ([24.156.234.4]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010112234425.EKMQ20641.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr938302a> for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:44:25 -0800 Message-ID: <008101c07cf2$233b69c0$04ea9c18@rchrd1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Chris Capowski" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:48:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Are we talking strip or roadcourse use? There's a difference in which > direction you go, and I'd hope that everyone here can figure that one out. > > For what it's worth, my '96 Impala likes about 48 psi up front for autocross > use. Even at that pressure, I can still get the first 1" or so of sidewall > to scrub if I'm really pushing it. > Eric Bryant I hate to beat a dead horse here, but there are two different issues here. Increasing tire pressure to make up for poor suspension set up (not enough camber/caster/toe) and tire pressure changes when the suspension is set up properly. If the suspension is not properly set up for cornering (which is what I suspect for everyone using really high pressures (above 40#)) you increase the pressure to reduce the amount of tire roll over. In this case, pretty much the higher the better, even though your contact patch is getting smaller and smaller. If the suspesnion is set up properly so that the contact patch is level at full cornering g's, then generally the LOWER the pressure the more traction you have, up until the contact patch gets really distorted under load which causes excess heat and the tire overheats. The lower the pressure the larger the contact patch and the higher the pressure the smaller the contact patch. To give some data points of my own: 89 Civic Si tire pressure for best cornering g's: street tires, stock suspension 42f/38r street tires, adj camber, stiff suspension 28f/28r (factory recommended pressures by the way) race slicks, adj camber, really stiff suspension 18f/25r Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 16:18:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA05938 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:18:19 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA05933 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:18:12 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010113001746.JREX22375.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:17:46 -0800 Message-ID: <002801c07d0f$9cfa3a80$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:19:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Right on!........ Not to pick on anybody in particular, but, a good example was when Chevy/GMC truck decided to first install B.F. Goodrich 275/60/R15 HR4 tires on a 15"x7" rim assembly, in 1990, as part of their C1500 ZQ8 truck performance suspension package. The intention was good, but, what were they smoking at the time? At highway speeds, from behind, you could see daylight between the shoulders and the pavement. I've got a set of these where the center's are worn to the limit while the shoulders still have the "nubbins" pretty much intact. Dozens of other ZQ8 contacts have had the same experiences. How much handling do you think a person has with 2-3" contact patch width at the rear at speed? Even B.F.G. themselves do not advocate this combo in the aftermarket world. Real world performance all comes down to what exact tire you have, on what exact rim, under specific conditions, and under specific inflation pressures. Test, Test, Test, and then reTest, just to make sure. Walt. > depends on the car, the tire, and the rim size. In most of the cars I've driven 40 psi wont let the outside edges of the tire contact the road. For example at 36 psi 215/70/15 tires on a 92 tracker 2 door only the center inch was touching the road ( measured using the puddle method) and the car was scary. On a 87 Subaru 4dr 4x4 sedan 36 psi gave about the same contact patch. > > The best tire pressure is a trade off between wear, and traction, and ride. The tire maker sets a pressure that makes the tire last longer on the test stand, to automakers give the pressure for best economy with handling factored in as small > part. > > The only solid rule I've found is that you have to test. > > Previously, you (John Edward Miller) wrote: > { > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction > { > { { > { Not cornering traction, not on street tires. Best grip ~40-46psi in most > { cases. > { > { John. > { > { > { -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 16:27:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA06028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:27:00 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06024 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:26:53 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.148]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010113002651.XQAG10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:26:51 -0500 Message-ID: <03a601c07cf7$90792a40$5f258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <002801c07d0f$9cfa3a80$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:27:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Sherwin" To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > Right on!........ > > Not to pick on anybody in particular, but, a good example was when Chevy/GMC > truck decided to first install B.F. Goodrich 275/60/R15 HR4 tires on a > 15"x7" rim assembly, in 1990, as part of their C1500 ZQ8 truck performance > suspension package. The intention was good, but, what were they smoking at > the time? At highway speeds, from behind, you could see daylight between > the shoulders and the pavement. I've got a set of these where the center's > are worn to the limit while the shoulders still have the "nubbins" pretty > much intact. Dozens of other ZQ8 contacts have had the same experiences. > How much handling do you think a person has with 2-3" contact patch width at > the rear at speed? Even B.F.G. themselves do not advocate this combo in the > aftermarket world. > > Real world performance all comes down to what exact tire you have, on what > exact rim, under specific conditions, and under specific inflation > pressures. Test, Test, Test, and then reTest, just to make sure. > > > Walt. > > > > > > depends on the car, the tire, and the rim size. In most of the cars I've > driven 40 psi wont let the outside edges of the tire contact the road. For > example at 36 psi 215/70/15 tires on a 92 tracker 2 door only the center > inch was touching the road ( measured using the puddle method) and the car > was scary. On a 87 Subaru 4dr 4x4 sedan 36 psi gave about the same contact > patch. > > > > The best tire pressure is a trade off between wear, and traction, and > ride. The tire maker sets a pressure that makes the tire last longer on the > test stand, to automakers give the pressure for best economy with handling > factored in as small > > part. > > > > The only solid rule I've found is that you have to test. > > > > Previously, you (John Edward Miller) wrote: > > { > Normally, you lower tire pressure for traction > > { > > { > { > > { Not cornering traction, not on street tires. Best grip ~40-46psi in > most > > { cases. > > { > > { John. > > { > > { > > > { -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 16:31:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA06114 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:31:47 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06110 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:31:41 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.148]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010113003137.XQXK10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:31:37 -0500 Message-ID: <03aa01c07cf8$3ac693c0$5f258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <002801c07d0f$9cfa3a80$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:31:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Last submitted posting (from this location) was by Doc, oops Everything about anything to do with anything is about testing. Mileage, ET, trap speed, areo loading, engine combs, it all changes. And the secret to that is notes. Anyway Amen Bruce Did I say the GN did a calc'd 301 Ft/lbs of torque at 3,900 rpm ealier today (at 15 PSI). > Right on!........ > > Not to pick on anybody in particular, but, a good example was when Chevy/GMC > truck decided to first install B.F. Goodrich 275/60/R15 HR4 tires on a > 15"x7" rim assembly, in 1990, as part of their C1500 ZQ8 truck performance > suspension package. The intention was good, but, what were they smoking at > the time? At highway speeds, from behind, you could see daylight between > the shoulders and the pavement. I've got a set of these where the center's > are worn to the limit while the shoulders still have the "nubbins" pretty > much intact. Dozens of other ZQ8 contacts have had the same experiences. > How much handling do you think a person has with 2-3" contact patch width at > the rear at speed? Even B.F.G. themselves do not advocate this combo in the > aftermarket world. > > Real world performance all comes down to what exact tire you have, on what > exact rim, under specific conditions, and under specific inflation > pressures. Test, Test, Test, and then reTest, just to make sure. > Walt. > > depends on the car, the tire, and the rim size. In most of the cars I've > driven 40 psi wont let the outside edges of the tire contact the road. For > example at 36 psi 215/70/15 tires on a 92 tracker 2 door only the center > inch was touching the road ( measured using the puddle method) and the car > was scary. On a 87 Subaru 4dr 4x4 sedan 36 psi gave about the same contact > patch. > > The best tire pressure is a trade off between wear, and traction, and > ride. The tire maker sets a pressure that makes the tire last longer on the > test stand, to automakers give the pressure for best economy with handling > factored in as small > > part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 16:35:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA06183 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:35:45 -0800 Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06177 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:35:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host sitemail.everyone.net [216.200.145.35] claimed to be omta02.mta.everyone.net Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (reports [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB6D1C293B for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id E96E936EE; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:35:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) From: dennis To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: advantages of electronic throttle X-Originating-Ip: [38.193.223.223] Message-Id: <20010113003532.E96E936EE@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There are a few minor advantages. This is what I gather.... For naturally aspirated stuff, they can make the engine more "responsive" ie, change the opening rate of the throttle depending on what "mode" you select, or what "mood" you are in. For turbo stuff, it seems that there are more advantages, the ecm can "anticipate" when you want boost and help to spool the turbo sooner. Boost and torque can be more linear and controllable, and I think there are some things that they can do with anti-lag. For all applications they can use throttle opening as part of a traction control/vehicle control scheme. It all seems like just more stuff to break to me. What happens when the little stepper motor on the throttle screws up? Or when the pedal sensor shorts out? Dennis --- Jeroen Proveniers > wrote: >As the subject says... > >JJ >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org _____________________________________________________________ AutoSpeed - The World's Best High Performance Online Magazine http://www.autospeed.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 17:37:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA06737 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:37:15 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06733 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:37:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.74]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:19:34 -0700 Message-ID: <004001c07d01$547a14a0$4a69bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112171651.00d88a80@toque.cisco.com> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:59:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Just wondering how you made out with the fuel tables...Moreso looking for someone that did use the stock 2.8V6 computer and made the necessary table changes for a 4.3L V6 Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: den Broeder, Ernst To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > Which part? I've upgraded my 2.8tbi to a 4.3tbi 1227747 controller... is > that what you are referring to? > > Ernst > > At 02:33 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Thankyou--at least there's another racer out there ... > > > >EFI content--anyone converted a 2.8V6 TBI to 4.3 lately ?? > > > >Lyndon. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 19:42:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA07703 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:42:07 -0800 Received: from mailhost.fotowire.com (www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA07691 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:41:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host www.fotowire.com [164.128.77.42] claimed to be mailhost.fotowire.com Received: from xxl [212.47.181.19] by mailhost.fotowire.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id AE6588011E; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:41:25 +0000 Message-ID: <001f01c07d12$b4500400$1401a8c0@gva.fotowire.com> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: <20010113003532.E96E936EE@sitemail.everyone.net> Subject: Re: advantages of electronic throttle Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:41:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > There are a few minor advantages. > > This is what I gather.... > > For naturally aspirated stuff, they can make the engine more "responsive" ie, change the opening rate of the throttle depending on what "mode" you select, or what "mood" you are in. > > For turbo stuff, it seems that there are more advantages, the ecm can "anticipate" when you want boost and help to spool the turbo sooner. Boost and torque can be more linear and controllable, and I think there are some things that they can do with anti-lag. > > For all applications they can use throttle opening as part of a traction control/vehicle control scheme. > > It all seems like just more stuff to break to me. > What happens when the little stepper motor on the throttle screws up? Or when the pedal sensor shorts out? According to Bosch, the throttle rest at a default position (two springs defines that position) and the engine management system enters a limp home mode with "reduced comfort" (dixit!) Aslo, I've read in a SAE paper that some people tried to have the pedal conceptually control the fuel delivery, and the ECM would then provide the required air using a servo-controlled throttle. Kind of inside out, sort of. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 12 20:49:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA08317 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:49:27 -0800 Received: from mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com [24.92.68.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA08313 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:49:21 -0800 Received: from chick (m5hWs4n136.midsouth.rr.com [24.95.119.136]) by mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA20626 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:48:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <036901c07d1c$6f6acb40$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> From: "Jurgen Hartwig" To: Subject: Smartcoils & other ignition questions Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:51:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I recently purchased an aftermarket engine management setup. I am now searching for the pieces to get it running. I have gotten enough info regarding the sensors, and now am ironing out the ignition and triggering. I had originally planned on using waste spark coils fired by separate ignition modules or igniters, rather. I eventually realized I could not use the GM or Ford ignition modules, since I just need a dumb module or igniter (no crank or cam input). I searched through the archives and found posts about the GM "Smartcoils," which have the igniter onboard with the single coils. On top of that, they are relatively inexpensive. Has anyone used them with aftermarket or any other custom setup? The archives only went up to '99, and the coils were only introduced on '99- model year autos. I searched Autozone's online catalog and found the '99 Camaro is one of the models using the single coils. I suppose they are the Direct Ignition coils I am looking for. $35.99. I may check my junkyard and see if I can get a batch for cheap. Barring use of the 'Smartcoil', which appears to be my best and cheapest option, I will just use a plain vanilla coilpack and separate ignition modules. To those who have done this before, can you give me your thoughts and information? Regards, Jay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 06:24:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA10101 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 06:24:32 -0800 Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA10097 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 06:24:24 -0800 Received: from 207-172-145-16.s16.as4.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.145.16]) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.16 #5) id 14HRbP-0003Ac-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:24:19 -0500 From: Charles To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Wills rings Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:24:54 -0500 Message-ID: <53p06t0u4vpi1n6vpn6f6p01e861gm4n8i@4ax.com> References: <200101120900.BAA19697@hektor.valesh.com> In-Reply-To: <200101120900.BAA19697@hektor.valesh.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id GAA10098 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:00:12 -0800, you wrote: >> What's a Wills ring? > >Inert gas filled hollow ring set in a machined circumferential groove >around the liners. Usually a stainless steel ring. This ring provides >the combustion gas seal, a soft gasket around the head to block mating >seals oil and water ways. A plain round section wire ring is more >common, the Wills ring is better, but a lot more expensive You aren't kidding... my BMW 745i (factory turbo) uses these rings to seal the cast iron exhaust manifold to the alloy head, and a large one between the turbo and the manifold flange. They have been extremely reliable despite increased (15 psi) boost and short term exhaust temps of 1650 F. Unfortunately the head gasket does not use them and I blew one while tuning at high boost (pinged a few too many times). But the complete teardown gasket set is about $350 whereas the non-turbo set is $100 (and they are virtually identical otherwise). -Charles ------------------------------------------------- Tired of noise from Dulles Airport, BWI or National? Check out www.caan.org and call your Congressman! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 09:51:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA10671 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:51:06 -0800 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id JAA10667 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:50:59 -0800 Received: (qmail 17802 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2001 17:50:57 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Jan 2001 17:50:57 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (d37.pm8.sonic.net [208.201.230.37]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id f0DHkRJ12608 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:46:31 -0800 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3A60944B.3FEAF6BA@sonic.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:45:47 -0800 From: clayb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Smartcoils & other ignition questions References: <200101130900.BAA09127@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:51:04 -0600 > From: "Jurgen Hartwig" > Subject: Smartcoils & other ignition questions I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "smartcoils". I'm familiar with a setup for the GM V6 that has the module with three wasted spark coils bolted directly on top of it. The latest LS-1 V8 has one coil per plug, with the coil mounted directly at the spark plug. These are not wasted spark, however, requiring eight coils and coil drivers. I used 4 of the GM-style wasted spark coils, but I purchased them from Jacobs, as they are lower impedance (.6 ohm) and generate more voltage across the secondary than the GM units. Then, I drove them with a "dumb" four channel CD box from Autronics, which has a user-selectable 390V/450V primary setting. 4 inputs, 4 outputs, the computer handles the timing. It generates a very hot, accurate spark. You can buy 4 channel CD boxes from MSD (I don't think they drive low impedance coils well), Jacobs Electronics, and Autronics. I think Crane may also make one, by now. - Clay > I recently purchased an aftermarket engine management setup. I am now > searching for the pieces to get it running. I have gotten enough info > regarding the sensors, and now am ironing out the ignition and triggering. > > I had originally planned on using waste spark coils fired by separate > ignition modules or igniters, rather. I eventually realized I could not > use the GM or Ford ignition modules, since I just need a dumb module or > igniter (no crank or cam input). I searched through the archives and > found posts about the GM "Smartcoils," which have the igniter onboard with > the single coils. On top of that, they are relatively inexpensive. Has > anyone used them with aftermarket or any other custom setup? The archives > only went up to '99, and the coils were only introduced on '99- model year > autos. > > I searched Autozone's online catalog and found the '99 Camaro is one of > the models using the single coils. I suppose they are the Direct Ignition > coils I am looking for. $35.99. I may check my junkyard and see if I can > get a batch for cheap. > > Barring use of the 'Smartcoil', which appears to be my best and cheapest > option, I will just use a plain vanilla coilpack and separate ignition > modules. To those who have done this before, can you give me your > thoughts and information? > > Regards, > Jay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 09:57:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA10710 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:57:48 -0800 Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.174]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA10706 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:57:38 -0800 Received: from modem-70.chaffinch.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.148.70] helo=o1y3y2) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14HUvn-0004bw-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:57:35 +0000 Message-ID: <003601c07d8a$25fefa80$4694893e@o1y3y2> From: "TVS" To: References: <000901c07a9a$c4a87320$6c93893e@o1y3y2> <88169397290.20010111230921@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: (Bit off topic) turbo lag... Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:56:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > My experiences with the Imp engine is the head gasket, even the Reinz > one, is marginal under N/A conditions, the ONLY way you'll keep the seal > is to use Wills rings and an outer water/oil sealing gasket. These are > still relatively easily sourced here in the UK. Yes, but aren't they about £80 a set? I've heard that a machined ring in the head above the thicker part of the gasket helps... this was what I was planing to do as well as increase the torque to 40ftlbs. Can't really afford to go to a wet liner yet... I think a 998 is about £450. One day perhaps, or may be a 1040 ;-) Thanks, Toby ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 11:18:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA11038 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:18:42 -0800 Received: from mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com [24.92.68.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA11034 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:18:35 -0800 Received: from chick (m5hWs4n136.midsouth.rr.com [24.95.119.136]) by mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA20444 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:17:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <013b01c07d95$da30bc40$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> From: "Jurgen Hartwig" To: References: <200101130900.BAA09127@hektor.valesh.com> <3A60944B.3FEAF6BA@sonic.net> Subject: Re: Smartcoils & other ignition questions Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:20:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "smartcoils". I'm familiar with a > setup for the GM V6 that has the module with three wasted spark coils > bolted directly on top of it. The latest LS-1 V8 has one coil per plug, > with the coil mounted directly at the spark plug. These are not wasted > spark, however, requiring eight coils and coil drivers. Here's an excerpt of a past post, dated 29 May 1998, by Gar: >>>>> Oh Man, you don't know the half of it!! A guy in our Aviation group that works in a GM lab sent me one of these off a decommissioned test vehicle, and they are NOT mere IGN coils, they're complete single-coil IGN "systems". They contain ALL the electronics for dwell control, current limiting, etc etc. These coils are DIRECTLY run from the ECM/PCM. There is NO module. They have 4 terminals (plus the HV terminal, that uses these ratchet style terminals I was tellin bout yesterday), two for Bat Gnd, and Bat +12V, and the other two are the digital EST signal and it's low-noise gnd return. Not usable for ION as a transformer-type coil, cuz you cain't get to either the primary or secondary on these puppies, but still a VERY elegant setup, indeed. That ain't all. The biggest shock is yet to come. Brace yerself. They're actually CHEAP (and nice and light, too). I couldn't believe it when I went to check them out further. The GM parts counter LIST price is $41 for each "smart coil", and EVEN the harness for tying four of them together is reasonable, list price of $62. You get 4 connectors for the 4 coils, and another larger connector. Not a bad price for 4 GM connectors and pigtails (if you decided you couldn't use the harness as is), at the very least, and you might even be able to get the bigger connector from Packard! The shorty coil wires (yes, these DON'T squat ontop the coils) have them real nice connectors I mentioned, and they as well are pretty reasonable, at $11 ea list. My GM pal who must remain anonymous says you'll see these exact same LS-1 smartCoils appearing on all the big block truck and bus engines next year! That's what my samples came off of, NOT LS-1 engines. Heh. >>>>>> The ones I looked up for the Camaro do indeed have spark plug wires, so they are not coil on spark plug. Additionally, since these have igniters onboard, there is no need for any boxes. What I am trying to determine is if my Wolf 3D setup will directly drive two "smart coils" in waste spark fashion. The Wolf system cannot do direct ignition, which really isn't a big deal for me having only a 4 cylinder engine. I need to wait until after the holiday to get in touch with Wolf EMS. I just wanted to throw out an email to see if anyone has any direct experience with these coils. My second option is to use dual post coils and igniters from an RX-7. They are roughly $30-50US each used and have igniters beneath each coil. With either setup, I'm not looking at more than $150, and in my opinion, this package is relatively inexpensive upgrade to simple waste spark ignition. To anyone who cares, I picked up my Wolf 3D setup for $645US used, and it uses plain vanilla GM sensors and can be triggered by a simple Ford Escort magnetic sensor ($18 from NAPA). With some creativity, I'll keep costs below $1000, and be able to go with forced induction in the near future. I just don't have the brute knowledge to cobble together a GM setup, so I had to trade money for knowledge. Regards, Jay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 12:57:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA11369 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:57:02 -0800 Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA11365 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:56:56 -0800 Received: from toque.cisco.com (toque.cisco.com [161.44.208.153]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02513 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from edenbroe-nt.cisco.com (kan-dial-105.cisco.com [10.88.15.105]) by toque.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AAT80405; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:56:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010113155003.00c4d100@toque.cisco.com> X-Sender: edenbroe@toque.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:56:54 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "den Broeder, Ernst" Subject: Re: off topic / traction control In-Reply-To: <004001c07d01$547a14a0$4a69bfce@oemcomputer> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112171651.00d88a80@toque.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I adjusted the BPW until the 2.8L ran half decent and then tuned the rest of the tables from there in. Why not use the 4.3 ECM for the 4.3? I made no harness changes when I replaced the '7429 with the '7747. Ernst At 04:59 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >Just wondering how you made out with the fuel tables...Moreso looking for >someone that did use the stock 2.8V6 computer and made the necessary table >changes for a 4.3L V6 > >Lyndon. >----- Original Message ----- >From: den Broeder, Ernst >To: >Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 3:21 PM >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > Which part? I've upgraded my 2.8tbi to a 4.3tbi 1227747 controller... is > > that what you are referring to? > > > > Ernst > > > > At 02:33 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >Thankyou--at least there's another racer out there ... > > > > > >EFI content--anyone converted a 2.8V6 TBI to 4.3 lately ?? > > > > > >Lyndon. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 14:27:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA11897 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:27:03 -0800 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA11892 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:26:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26] claimed to be smtp.email.msn.com Received: from oemcomputer - 63.28.15.16 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:26:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c07dae$c498bea0$100f1c3f@oemcomputer> From: "alexpeper" To: References: <200101130900.BAA09127@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: MAP and TPS LOAD based EFI Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:18:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org SAE defines percent calculated load value as current airflow divided by max. possible ariflow. corrected to standard pressure if available. This value is required for all cars sold in US year 1996 and after. Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 15:49:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA12442 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:49:40 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA12438 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:49:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.75]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:31:54 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c07dbb$83101700$4b69bfce@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112171651.00d88a80@toque.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010113155003.00c4d100@toque.cisco.com> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:49:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Never looked at the pinouts--didn't realize they were pin for pin matched.... Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: den Broeder, Ernst To: Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > I adjusted the BPW until the 2.8L ran half decent and then tuned the rest > of the tables from there in. > > Why not use the 4.3 ECM for the 4.3? I made no harness changes when I > replaced the '7429 with the '7747. > > Ernst > > > At 04:59 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Just wondering how you made out with the fuel tables...Moreso looking for > >someone that did use the stock 2.8V6 computer and made the necessary table > >changes for a 4.3L V6 > > > >Lyndon. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: den Broeder, Ernst > >To: > >Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 3:21 PM > >Subject: Re: off topic / traction control > > > > > > > Which part? I've upgraded my 2.8tbi to a 4.3tbi 1227747 controller... is > > > that what you are referring to? > > > > > > Ernst > > > > > > At 02:33 PM 1/12/01 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Thankyou--at least there's another racer out there ... > > > > > > > >EFI content--anyone converted a 2.8V6 TBI to 4.3 lately ?? > > > > > > > >Lyndon. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 13 15:57:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA12506 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:57:44 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA12501 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:57:38 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.246]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010113235734.FQXB10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:57:34 -0500 Message-ID: <035401c07dbc$97a572e0$250ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112171651.00d88a80@toque.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010113155003.00c4d100@toque.cisco.com> <001901c07dbb$83101700$4b69bfce@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: off topic / traction control Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:57:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-e