From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 12:31:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA05708 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:31:53 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA05702 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:31:47 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29583 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:27:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:27:54 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAFs In-Reply-To: <20010205194357.38711.qmail@web10012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but it seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank angle, and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). james montebello On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Matt Henson wrote: > I'm trying to see the difference in intake air > behavior between a turbo and NA car. The speed of the > air can cause turbulence but this should be the same > regardless of the aspiration. One must choose an > appropriatly sized pipe for the flow of the system. I > suppose that the compressor could do something to > swirl(?) the incoming (and certainly the outgoing) air > but if we're talking about a significant distance > between the MAF and compressor then it shouldn't > matter, should it? > > How does the IC affect the desirability of using blow > through vs pull-through? The IC's effect on the air > mass should be measured either way, no? I've > considered going blow through but decided that the > life of the MAF would be reduced due to the oil in the > system. I spoke with Corky Bell about this and he > found that his blow through MAFs only last around 10k > miles before the oil kills them. If you can > effectively prevent the PCV from introducing the oil > mist into the intake then it should help with the MAF > life. > > Regards, > Matt > > > --- Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > OK. what makes you think that?. > > Maybe if the air column was inertia free, > > First thought of mine is well look at a bath tub > > drain. Vortecs big time, > > just to get the water thru. Air acts just like > > water, only far less dense. > > Specifically they were blow thrus, but if that > > bad blow thru, I can image > > problems either way. > > I've been going thru this in some detail, luckily > > my car has an Intercooler > > so by locating the MAF between that and the TB just > > makes sense, least to > > me, and so far things are acting totally as > > expected. > > Bruce > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 12:48:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA05938 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:48:42 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA05929 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:48:35 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.6]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010205204832.LQCB10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:48:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01bc01c08fb5$09074da0$060ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:48:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If the turbo's seals are gone, then that is the problem, and needs addressed. New GM MAFs are true hot wires, and nothing in the air stream (but the wires, and a bridge to hold them), I shot Carb cleaner on it and no ill effects. The film ones are another matter and they most often have a film board in the air stream (also often have a plastic case). Picking parts for the right useage, is key. If your calling the late GM MAF fragile you need to take another look. AL housing, O-Ring seals, fully encapsulated, I couldn't dream of better. In my application, the MAF allows SEFI, so while I spend $50 more on the MAF sensor, it's well spent in my opinion. FWIW, I'm actually doing this, not quessing about it. Bruce > Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... > I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter > configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but it > seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank angle, > and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). > james montebello > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Matt Henson wrote: > > I'm trying to see the difference in intake air > > behavior between a turbo and NA car. The speed of the > > air can cause turbulence but this should be the same > > regardless of the aspiration. One must choose an > > appropriatly sized pipe for the flow of the system. I > > suppose that the compressor could do something to > > swirl(?) the incoming (and certainly the outgoing) air > > but if we're talking about a significant distance > > between the MAF and compressor then it shouldn't > > matter, should it? > > > > How does the IC affect the desirability of using blow > > through vs pull-through? The IC's effect on the air > > mass should be measured either way, no? I've > > considered going blow through but decided that the > > life of the MAF would be reduced due to the oil in the > > system. I spoke with Corky Bell about this and he > > found that his blow through MAFs only last around 10k > > miles before the oil kills them. If you can > > effectively prevent the PCV from introducing the oil > > mist into the intake then it should help with the MAF > > life. > > > > Regards, > > Matt > > > > > > --- Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > > OK. what makes you think that?. > > > Maybe if the air column was inertia free, > > > First thought of mine is well look at a bath tub > > > drain. Vortecs big time, > > > just to get the water thru. Air acts just like > > > water, only far less dense. > > > Specifically they were blow thrus, but if that > > > bad blow thru, I can image > > > problems either way. > > > I've been going thru this in some detail, luckily > > > my car has an Intercooler > > > so by locating the MAF between that and the TB just > > > makes sense, least to > > > me, and so far things are acting totally as > > > expected. > > > Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 13:10:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA06199 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:10:27 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA06194 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:10:21 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.6]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010205211019.LTNJ10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:10:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01de01c08fb8$145bf860$060ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <20010205194357.38711.qmail@web10012.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:10:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I'm trying to see the difference in intake air > behavior between a turbo and NA car. The speed of the > air can cause turbulence but this should be the same > regardless of the aspiration. N/A can exist with nothing more then a butterfly right by the intake valve, and in that case a IR is the best possible. It has the whole atmosphere filling the cylinder. A turbo forces some ducting. One must choose an > appropriatly sized pipe for the flow of the system. I > suppose that the compressor could do something to > swirl(?) the incoming (and certainly the outgoing) air > but if we're talking about a significant distance > between the MAF and compressor then it shouldn't > matter, should it? Ya, but that kills throttle response, 1 inch on my 4' long tract makes a noticeable difference.. > How does the IC affect the desirability of using blow > through vs pull-through? The air has to line up to go thru it, takes most of the votexing out of the air. This allows the air to be presented to the MAF the same way all the time. Which is critical. If you can't get repeatable measurements on air flow, then at best everything is erratic. The IC's effect on the air > mass should be measured either way, no? I've > considered going blow through but decided that the > life of the MAF would be reduced due to the oil in the > system. I spoke with Corky Bell about this and he > found that his blow through MAFs only last around 10k > miles before the oil kills them. Is he using one that is best for the application?. If a film type MAF I readily understand that. Where is does he use a PCV system?. How well set up is the oil fume air seperator?. That is darn near always over looked. Mine is down stream of the MAF. Not a problem. Then I also use a check valve in series with the PCV valve so that if it doesn't seat perfectly, I don't pressureize the crankcase. Bruce If you can > effectively prevent the PCV from introducing the oil > mist into the intake then it should help with the MAF > life. > > Regards, > Matt > > > --- Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > OK. what makes you think that?. > > Maybe if the air column was inertia free, > > First thought of mine is well look at a bath tub > > drain. Vortecs big time, > > just to get the water thru. Air acts just like > > water, only far less dense. > > Specifically they were blow thrus, but if that > > bad blow thru, I can image > > problems either way. > > I've been going thru this in some detail, luckily > > my car has an Intercooler > > so by locating the MAF between that and the TB just > > makes sense, least to > > me, and so far things are acting totally as > > expected. > > Bruce > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 13:37:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA06474 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:37:16 -0800 Received: from web10011.mail.yahoo.com (web10011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.122]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA06469 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:37:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20010205213710.88014.qmail@web10011.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.170.89.4] by web10011.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:37:10 PST Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:37:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson Subject: Re: MAFs To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <01de01c08fb8$145bf860$060ac9d8@brucescompute> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > N/A can exist with nothing more then a butterfly > right by the intake valve, > and in that case a IR is the best possible. It has > the whole atmosphere > filling the cylinder. A turbo forces some ducting. Okay. yes. > > One must choose an > > appropriatly sized pipe for the flow of the > system. I > > suppose that the compressor could do something to > > swirl(?) the incoming (and certainly the outgoing) > air > > but if we're talking about a significant distance > > between the MAF and compressor then it shouldn't > > matter, should it? > > Ya, but that kills throttle response, 1 inch on my > 4' long tract makes a > noticeable difference.. I see. Okay. My app (turbo M3) is forced to have a ton of ducting. Right now it's maybe 12-13 feet. After my changes are done it will be worse - probably closer to 18 feet. That sounds crazy but, at least at the current length, the response is just fine. No noticable difference from a stock M3 and still better than most cars. > The air has to line up to go thru it, takes most of > the votexing out of the > air. This allows the air to be presented to the > MAF the same way all the > time. Which is critical. If you can't get > repeatable measurements on air > flow, then at best everything is erratic. Okay the IC removes the turbulence from the turbo. But there also shouldn't be a significant amount of turbulence if you measure before the turbo (assuming a bit of ducting in there). I would conclude, then, that if you've got to have the duct then you'd might as well put it before the turbo. > > Is he using one that is best for the application?. > If a film type MAF I > readily understand that. Where is does he use a > PCV system?. How well > set up is the oil fume air seperator?. That is > darn near always over > looked. Mine is down stream of the MAF. Not a > problem. Then I also use > a check valve in series with the PCV valve so that > if it doesn't seat > perfectly, I don't pressureize the crankcase. I think that he used the Ford MAF (I believe that the 75mm (?) Cobra MAF is okay for blow through). He wasn't using an air/oil seperator for the PCV. I think that he didn't spend a ton of time on this since packaging didn't make it that beneficial to use it as blow-through. So you've got the PCV downstream of the MAF? and the MAF is blow through? So how does that not pressurize the crankcase when you're under boost? The crankcase won't vent until it exceeds the manifold pressure, right? -Matt > Bruce __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 15:00:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA07281 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:00:39 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA07277 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:00:34 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29767 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:57:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:57:01 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: MAFs In-Reply-To: <01bc01c08fb5$09074da0$060ac9d8@brucescompute> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No seal is perfect, particularly a seal around a shaft rotating at six-digit speeds. But that wasn't my main point. I also never meant to suggest you weren't "doing this", only that the idea had never occurred to me, and surprised me. I was wondering aloud what the advantages would be over a draw-through MAF, or a speed/density system. The disadvantage appears to be potential contamination of the MAF itself. I fail to see the advantages, beyond a bit more simplicity. Simplicity can be a complete reason in itself, as well as pragmatic reasons that doing so allows you to assemble parts you already have into a working system. Just wondering if there are any other reasons. And by "fragile", I hardly meant mechanical strength, nor was I referring to any particular MAF sensor. Most MAF sensors will not put up with anywhere near as much abuse as a solid-state MAP sensor. If the late GM sensors do, then I'd say that's a welcome advance. james montebello On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > If the turbo's seals are gone, then that is the problem, and needs > addressed. New GM MAFs are true hot wires, and nothing in the air stream > (but the wires, and a bridge to hold them), I shot Carb cleaner on it and > no ill effects. The film ones are another matter and they most often have > a film board in the air stream (also often have a plastic case). > Picking parts for the right useage, is key. > If your calling the late GM MAF fragile you need to take another look. AL > housing, O-Ring seals, fully encapsulated, I couldn't dream of better. > In my application, the MAF allows SEFI, so while I spend $50 more on the > MAF sensor, it's well spent in my opinion. > FWIW, I'm actually doing this, not quessing about it. > Bruce > > > > > Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... > > I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter > > configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but it > > seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank angle, > > and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). > > james montebello > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 15:56:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA07755 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:56:58 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA07751 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:56:52 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.154]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010205235650.MVIB10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:56:50 -0500 Message-ID: <032601c08fcf$563833e0$060ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:56:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I was wondering aloud what the advantages would be over a draw-through > MAF, or a speed/density system. The disadvantage appears to be potential > contamination of the MAF itself. I fail to see the advantages, beyond > a bit more simplicity. Simplicity can be a complete reason in itself, > as well as pragmatic reasons that doing so allows you to assemble parts > you already have into a working system. Just wondering if there are > any other reasons. How about the shear fact that if the IAT compensation is internal to the MAF, then the metering allows for heat saturation of the I/C. For doing things as correct as possible makes the tuning all the easier. this way just a MAT timing table would allow for perfect tuning, or close to it. All the IAT and MAT sesnors I've tested are rather slow to respond. This eliminates that, at east for thair sensing. Now an MAT can be used for timing control. Still would be slow, but beats having errors in both timing and fuel. > And by "fragile", I hardly meant mechanical strength, nor was I referring > to any particular MAF sensor. Most MAF sensors will not put up with > anywhere near as much abuse as a solid-state MAP sensor. If the late GM > sensors do, then I'd say that's a welcome advance. GM MAPs use a strain guage so there is a moving part, the late GM MAFs no moving parts. A moving part is perfect for failure. With the way I did mine (MAF mounting) it's isolated on both sides with hoses. To mount a MAP real close usually means mounting solid (as done by some oems). Mounting a strain guage where supbject to vibration is less then perfect. Bruce > james montebello > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > If the turbo's seals are gone, then that is the problem, and needs > > addressed. New GM MAFs are true hot wires, and nothing in the air stream > > (but the wires, and a bridge to hold them), I shot Carb cleaner on it and > > no ill effects. The film ones are another matter and they most often have > > a film board in the air stream (also often have a plastic case). > > Picking parts for the right useage, is key. > > If your calling the late GM MAF fragile you need to take another look. AL > > housing, O-Ring seals, fully encapsulated, I couldn't dream of better. > > In my application, the MAF allows SEFI, so while I spend $50 more on the > > MAF sensor, it's well spent in my opinion. > > FWIW, I'm actually doing this, not quessing about it. > > Bruce > > > Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... > > > I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter > > > configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but it > > > seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank angle, > > > and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). > > > james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 15:59:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA07797 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:59:34 -0800 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA07792 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:59:27 -0800 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 14PvXf-000Ic3-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2001 15:59:31 -0800 Message-ID: <012201c08fcf$d16da540$0100a8c0@telus.net> From: "John Dammeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:00:28 -0800 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi guys, This GM MAF sensor sounds interesting. I'm in the process of computerizing an Aluminum/Bronze melting furnace and had the bright light Idea that measuring air flow along with a known orifice size and fixed propane pressure could kill two birds with one stone. I could detect furnace air flow and therefore know that ignition and propane flow can continue or be started and also determine the mass of the air. Which GM vehicles use this MAF sensor or how much does GM want for it as a replacement part. What sort of output does it have or does it need a special circuit to drive it? Thanks, John Dammeyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Montebello" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: Re: MAFs > > No seal is perfect, particularly a seal around a shaft rotating at > six-digit speeds. But that wasn't my main point. > > I also never meant to suggest you weren't "doing this", only that the > idea had never occurred to me, and surprised me. > > I was wondering aloud what the advantages would be over a draw-through > MAF, or a speed/density system. The disadvantage appears to be potential > contamination of the MAF itself. I fail to see the advantages, beyond > a bit more simplicity. Simplicity can be a complete reason in itself, > as well as pragmatic reasons that doing so allows you to assemble parts > you already have into a working system. Just wondering if there are > any other reasons. > > And by "fragile", I hardly meant mechanical strength, nor was I referring > to any particular MAF sensor. Most MAF sensors will not put up with > anywhere near as much abuse as a solid-state MAP sensor. If the late GM > sensors do, then I'd say that's a welcome advance. > > james montebello > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > If the turbo's seals are gone, then that is the problem, and needs > > addressed. New GM MAFs are true hot wires, and nothing in the air stream > > (but the wires, and a bridge to hold them), I shot Carb cleaner on it and > > no ill effects. The film ones are another matter and they most often have > > a film board in the air stream (also often have a plastic case). > > Picking parts for the right useage, is key. > > If your calling the late GM MAF fragile you need to take another look. AL > > housing, O-Ring seals, fully encapsulated, I couldn't dream of better. > > In my application, the MAF allows SEFI, so while I spend $50 more on the > > MAF sensor, it's well spent in my opinion. > > FWIW, I'm actually doing this, not quessing about it. > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... > > > I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter > > > configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but it > > > seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank angle, > > > and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). > > > james montebello > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 16:12:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA08137 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:12:13 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA08128 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:12:04 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.154]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010206001202.MXZQ10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:12:02 -0500 Message-ID: <033b01c08fd1$75a41bc0$060ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <012201c08fcf$d16da540$0100a8c0@telus.net> Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:12:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > This GM MAF sensor sounds interesting. I'm in the process of computerizing > an Aluminum/Bronze melting furnace and had the bright light Idea that > measuring air flow along with a known orifice size and fixed propane > pressure could kill two birds with one stone. I could detect furnace air > flow and therefore know that ignition and propane flow can continue or be > started and also determine the mass of the air. > Which GM vehicles use this MAF sensor or how much does GM want for it as a > replacement part. Some real late S10s, LT1s and LS1s (starts in about 95 for various ones> > What sort of output does it have or does it need a special circuit to drive > it? Runs on 12v, frequency output (there is a posting about gms/sec. vs frequency). Probably the GMECM archives. Bruce > > Thanks, > > John Dammeyer > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Montebello" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:57 PM > Subject: Re: MAFs > > > > > > No seal is perfect, particularly a seal around a shaft rotating at > > six-digit speeds. But that wasn't my main point. > > > > I also never meant to suggest you weren't "doing this", only that the > > idea had never occurred to me, and surprised me. > > > > I was wondering aloud what the advantages would be over a draw-through > > MAF, or a speed/density system. The disadvantage appears to be potential > > contamination of the MAF itself. I fail to see the advantages, beyond > > a bit more simplicity. Simplicity can be a complete reason in itself, > > as well as pragmatic reasons that doing so allows you to assemble parts > > you already have into a working system. Just wondering if there are > > any other reasons. > > > > And by "fragile", I hardly meant mechanical strength, nor was I referring > > to any particular MAF sensor. Most MAF sensors will not put up with > > anywhere near as much abuse as a solid-state MAP sensor. If the late GM > > sensors do, then I'd say that's a welcome advance. > > > > james montebello > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > If the turbo's seals are gone, then that is the problem, and needs > > > addressed. New GM MAFs are true hot wires, and nothing in the air > stream > > > (but the wires, and a bridge to hold them), I shot Carb cleaner on it > and > > > no ill effects. The film ones are another matter and they most often > have > > > a film board in the air stream (also often have a plastic case). > > > Picking parts for the right useage, is key. > > > If your calling the late GM MAF fragile you need to take another look. > AL > > > housing, O-Ring seals, fully encapsulated, I couldn't dream of better. > > > In my application, the MAF allows SEFI, so while I spend $50 more on > the > > > MAF sensor, it's well spent in my opinion. > > > FWIW, I'm actually doing this, not quessing about it. > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not just oil from the PCV, but oil from the turbo itself... > > > > I'd never even considered using a blow-through airflow meter > > > > configuration. I suppose it would somewhat simplify the system, but > it > > > > seems you're trading off a set of cheap, robust sensors (MAP, crank > angle, > > > > and air temp) for a fragile, expensive one (MAF). > > > > james montebello > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 16:33:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA08595 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:33:06 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id QAA08591 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:33:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114] claimed to be fw-austin.austin.arm.com Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id SAA29486; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:32:59 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma029484; Mon, 5 Feb 01 18:32:26 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00114 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:32:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A7F452B.DD08633A@arm.com> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:28:27 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: aftermarket throttlebodies References: <001901c08601$f8d3e720$8f1b01cf@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Here's a thing that showed up in my inbox, if anyone is interested. I have no idea if their prices are sensible or not. > Here is a site that manufactures throttle bodies for fuel injection, > it may help some of the visitors. > > www.fullthrottleperf.com --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 22:08:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA11339 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:08:32 -0800 Received: from spdmraac.compuserve.com (ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA11335 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:08:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154] claimed to be spdmraac.compuserve.com Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id BAA17378 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from HOMEXXL (mun-qbu-klx-vty5.as.wcom.net [195.232.108.5]) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id BAA17355 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:07:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001801c09003$0df2a000$056ce8c3@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: <032601c08fcf$563833e0$060ac9d8@brucescompute> Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:07:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Bruce Plecan" > How about the shear fact that if the IAT compensation is internal to the > MAF, then the metering allows for heat saturation of the I/C. What comes in, comes out, no? Less temp, more density, less speed but same amount of _air_, or did I miss something? > For doing > things as correct as possible makes the tuning all the easier. this way > just a MAT timing table would allow for perfect tuning, or close to it. > All the IAT and MAT sesnors I've tested are rather slow to respond. Certainly fast enough to cope with for atmosphere temp change from what I know, but now, for post turbo air temp change? IC will smooth things out but to what extent? T63 constant of automotive air temp sensors I know of (Bosch & Marelli) is in the 20s range, meaning it takes about a full minute to get an accurate reading, which rule out most 'real-time' control strategies based on that value. > This > eliminates that, at east for thair sensing. Now an MAT can be used for > timing control. Still would be slow, but beats having errors in both timing > and fuel. Yes, probably, but a minute late is really late as far as timing is concerned :) Anyway, if the air charge temp raises quickly and the sensor don't see it fast enough, the engine will run a bit richer than necessary, which is on the safe side, so no big deal unless you are super-concerned with fuel economy. --Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 22:18:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA11439 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:18:40 -0800 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA11435 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:18:34 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0243.cvx25-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.216.243]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA23869 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:18:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200122662114470@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Coil Driver Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:21:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Evening all, I was just looking @ the information from the FTP site called "combo driver" in it there is a coil driver that is a Harris piece (the part number is 14N40FVL). I was wondering if anyone has used this driver for any projects & how well it worked. It appears from the spec sheet (& the print that Dave Rhoads made up) that this is a pretty straight forward device. power to the coil, coil to collector & collector to ground. when you trigger the gate off she goes. thanks in advance. BW --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 22:36:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA11607 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:36:37 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe71.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.206]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA11599 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:36:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe71.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.206] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:35:59 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.160.235.77] From: "944Technologist" To: References: <20010205172352.47970.qmail@web10006.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MAFs - Tornado Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:37:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2001 06:35:59.0994 (UTC) FILETIME=[118C1DA0:01C09007] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Performance Products has a new product called Tornado. This is surprising because Performance has always been one of my favorite suppliers. The Tornado looks like a coffee can with internal fins designed to create turbulence. For a fuel injected engine? It fits in the rubber boot leading to the throttle. Every time I look at the Tornado pictures, it occurs to me that a couple of beer cans in the intake would work as well. It just strikes me funny in light of the threads of the past few days. PS I think even Honda owners will find this link funny....... maybe not. http://members.rennlist.com/atsracing/rtype.jpg FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 22:39:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA11657 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:39:33 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f124.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.124]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA11651 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:39:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f124.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.124] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:38:53 -0800 Received: from 203.164.3.170 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:38:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.164.3.170] From: "Glenn D" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Plenum Volume/Lenght/width Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:38:53 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2001 06:38:53.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[7918C090:01C09007] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Does anyone have an formula's for plenum chamber volume? The best i've been told so far is 1/2 - 2/3 of engine size (in litres) The engine i'm doing the EFI conversion on is a 4.3Litre chrysler hemi inline 6. Does the Length by width factor of the plenum matter? (ie 2X8 = 16 as does 4X4) Does anyone have a formula? Thanks in advance, Glenn. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 5 23:12:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA12095 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:12:43 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe22.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.79]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA12091 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:12:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe22.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.79] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:12:07 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.160.235.77] From: "944Technologist" To: References: Subject: Re: Plenum Volume/Lenght/width Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:13:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2001 07:12:07.0115 (UTC) FILETIME=[1D4089B0:01C0900C] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn D" > Does anyone have an formula's for plenum chamber volume? Also, are there any good Intake manifold design web pages out there? I had one for a DIY VOLVO intake but the link has vanished. Thanks in advance, FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 00:10:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA12591 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:10:01 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f180.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.180]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA12587 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:09:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f180.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.180] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:09:25 -0800 Received: from 208.249.92.10 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:09:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.249.92.10] From: "Rob Weinstock" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Coil Driver Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:09:25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2001 08:09:25.0357 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E9AA1D0:01C09014] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >I was just looking @ the information from the FTP site called "combo >driver" in it there is a coil driver that is a Harris piece (the part >number is 14N40FVL). I was wondering if anyone has used this driver for >any projects & how well it worked. It appears from the spec sheet (& the >print that Dave Rhoads made up) that this is a pretty straight forward >device. power to the coil, coil to collector & collector to ground. when >you trigger the gate off she goes. That device is a MOSFET power switching transistor. Unlike standard bipolar junction transistors (emitter/base/collector), this device is a field effect transistor (drain/gate/source). It requires a positive voltage to turn it on. It is not a driver by itself, at least not like the CS452/CS453 or LM1949 driver chips which actively monitor and control current to the fuel injector. The CS45X will drive a fuel injector coil by itself. The LM1939 driver is designed to drive a Darlington transistor, but could be made to work with a MOSFET with a little extra effort. Think of the above transistor as a power switch for the fuel injector coil. Regards, Rob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 07:25:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA15405 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:25:17 -0800 Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net (demai05.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.1.56]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA15400 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:25:07 -0800 Received: from mediaone.net (nic-30-c19-170.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.19.170]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f16FOkO01422 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A801740.532E6B31@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 10:24:48 -0500 From: Mike Wesley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Cheap laptops.. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A buddy of mine forwarded this... though maybe some might be interested in them. >These are only 486's, but they're perfect for engine managment. >IBM Thinkpad 486s, color screens, tested batteries, 28800 PCMCIA modems. >With CD, 36mb, 1.2GB HD $105 >Without CD, 36MB, 520HD $90 >Without CD, 24mb, 510HD $80 >Only have 6 of these, they're ex-corporate machines, aquired from a >liquidator. >Buyer pays shipping, pre-pay only, can accept paypal. >Email "onefastguy@hotmail.com" Mike Wesley - AutoLogic ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 07:57:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA15767 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:57:58 -0800 Received: from web4604.mail.yahoo.com (web4604.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.105.159]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id HAA15763 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:57:51 -0800 Message-ID: <20010206155747.23616.qmail@web4604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.225.246.124] by web4604.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:57:47 PST Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:57:47 -0800 (PST) From: road runner Subject: Re: Cheap laptops.. To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <3A801740.532E6B31@mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I am who do I talk to? --- Mike Wesley wrote: > A buddy of mine forwarded this... though maybe some > might be interested > in them. > > >These are only 486's, but they're perfect for > engine managment. > >IBM Thinkpad 486s, color screens, tested batteries, > 28800 PCMCIA modems. > > >With CD, 36mb, 1.2GB HD $105 > >Without CD, 36MB, 520HD $90 > >Without CD, 24mb, 510HD $80 > > >Only have 6 of these, they're ex-corporate > machines, aquired from a > >liquidator. > >Buyer pays shipping, pre-pay only, can accept > paypal. > > >Email "onefastguy@hotmail.com" > > Mike Wesley - AutoLogic > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 08:16:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15946 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:16:08 -0800 Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net (demai05.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.1.56]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA15939 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:16:01 -0800 Received: from mediaone.net (nic-30-c19-170.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.19.170]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f16GFiO27492 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:15:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A802332.AE4F13DC@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:15:46 -0500 From: Mike Wesley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Cheap laptops.. References: <20010206155747.23616.qmail@web4604.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org road runner wrote: > > I am who do I talk to? Send e-mail to this guy.... He's the one who has them. Email "onefastguy@hotmail.com" Mike... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 12:20:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA17821 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:20:19 -0800 Received: from mta11.onebox.com (mta11.onebox.com [216.35.104.111]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA21533 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:52:52 -0800 Received: from onebox.com ([216.33.158.146]) by mta11.onebox.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010123175218.VYXD291.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:52:18 -0800 Received: from [143.166.82.240] by onebox.com with HTTP; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:52:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:52:18 -0600 Subject: Help cracking toyota ECU From: "Josh Pullen" To: DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20010123175218.VYXD291.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi All, Someone recommended that I post this here if I wanted a chance at figuring this out. :) I have been working on trying to uncover some of the secrets of the 4th gen. Toyota Supra Turbo ECU. I have part of a broken computer that I desoldered a FPGA from, however, it has Denso (apparently) custom chips that I cannot read with my PROM burner. Does anyone know if Denso makes their own FPGA for their ECU or if they buy the chips and stamp their own part numbers on them? Here is a pic of the chip. http://fs.jmpvm.dyndns.org/~jmpvm/supra/ecu/DSCN1109.JPG Any information you can give would be greatly appreciated. If anyone can cross-reference this chip with the real manufacturer (if it isn't Denso) that would be GREAT. Any other suggestions welcome. I hope this was not too far off subject. Thanks in advance. -- Josh Pullen 1994 HKS T04R Supra Turbo http://www.mkiv.org/jmpvm __________________________________________________ FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place. Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com ----- End of forwarded message from owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 14:22:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA18849 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:22:22 -0800 Received: from mail.fwi.com (root@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA18844 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:22:12 -0800 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-5.fwi.com [209.84.174.70]) by mail.fwi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA24842; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:21:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000a01c0908c$9c8a3ba0$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: "GMECM" Cc: "DIY_EFI" Subject: Running 8 low impedence injectors on GM ECM using an auxilliary injector driver? Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:00:23 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Has anyone ever tried running 8 low impedance injectors with an auxiliary injector driver that is triggered by a GM ECM (like a 1990 F-body ECM)? Accel/DFI makes a low impedance injector driver/controller that allows EFI systems for high impedance injectors to trigger low impudence injectors. We have used this system on some of the Accel/DFI applications (before they came out with an ECM that could control low impedance injectors directly). Anyone see any problems controlling this device from a GM factory ECM? Would you use one to control all 8 or two, one to control each bank of 4 injectors? Jason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 17:46:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA20557 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:46:26 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f95.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA20553 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:46:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f95.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.95] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:45:49 -0800 Received: from 12.73.152.20 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 01:45:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.73.152.20] From: "keith hansen" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: EFI control Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 01:45:48 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2001 01:45:49.0072 (UTC) FILETIME=[B23E0100:01C090A7] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or purchasing an aftermarket unit. Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 19:15:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA21608 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:15:48 -0800 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA21604 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:15:42 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (pool0015.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.15]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27611 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:15:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200123731855560@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Coil Driver Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:18:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Sorry, i meant ignition coil not injector coil. if i am not mistaken this Harris part is specifically a ignition coil driver. BW > [Original Message] > From: Rob Weinstock > To: > Date: 2/6/01 12:12:03 AM > Subject: Re: Coil Driver > > >I was just looking @ the information from the FTP site called "combo > >driver" in it there is a coil driver that is a Harris piece (the part > >number is 14N40FVL). I was wondering if anyone has used this driver for > >any projects & how well it worked. It appears from the spec sheet (& the > >print that Dave Rhoads made up) that this is a pretty straight forward > >device. power to the coil, coil to collector & collector to ground. when > >you trigger the gate off she goes. > > That device is a MOSFET power switching transistor. Unlike standard bipolar > junction transistors (emitter/base/collector), this device is a field effect > transistor (drain/gate/source). It requires a positive voltage to turn it > on. > > It is not a driver by itself, at least not like the CS452/CS453 or LM1949 > driver chips which actively monitor and control current to the fuel > injector. The CS45X will drive a fuel injector coil by itself. The LM1939 > driver is designed to drive a Darlington transistor, but could be made to > work with a MOSFET with a little extra effort. > > Think of the above transistor as a power switch for the fuel injector coil. > > Regards, > > Rob > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 19:56:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA22005 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:56:55 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA22000 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:56:48 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010207035606.OMMV844.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: <008301c090d3$457b94c0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <000a01c0908c$9c8a3ba0$5ecdfea9@jrh> Subject: Re: Running 8 low impedence injectors on GM ECM using an auxilliary injector driver? Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:57:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The Accel VIC product is made for exactly what you describe. Two input channels controlling two banks of four low impedance injectors each. I like the added feature of adjustable pulse trim per injector, in spite of the fact that the control architecture remains batch with a VIC. I think the VIC is an excellent product and would not hesitate using external drivers (custom or commercial) to control low impedance (or odd gangs) of injectors that are to be triggered by OE style boxes not originally intended for same. This holds true for port fuel or TBI fuel. Makes good sense as: 1)the injectors each get the current that they were intended for, if the external box is done "right", and 2)the ECM/PCM/ECU is relegated to handling nothing more than low current level triggering duties, which won't hurt it's life cycle in the least. Win/Win situation, if you have to use an OE box that does not encompass your injector count/type. I use a number of LM1949 based "boxes" in what I play with, and have not yet had any problems. Walt. > Has anyone ever tried running 8 low impedance injectors with an auxiliary > injector driver that is triggered by a GM ECM (like a 1990 F-body ECM)? > Accel/DFI makes a low impedance injector driver/controller that allows EFI > systems for high impedance injectors to trigger low impudence injectors. We > have used this system on some of the Accel/DFI applications (before they > came out with an ECM that could control low impedance injectors directly). > Anyone see any problems controlling this device from a GM factory ECM? Would > you use one to control all 8 or two, one to control each bank of 4 > injectors? > > > Jason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 6 21:15:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA22596 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:15:44 -0800 Received: from mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com (mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com [24.2.10.84]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA22592 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:15:37 -0800 Received: from cr857883-a ([24.113.222.189]) by mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010207051503.TNTJ25505.mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com@cr857883-a> for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:15:03 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010206211525.00b4b100@mail> X-Sender: 280zx@mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:18:43 -0800 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Ross Corrigan <280zx@home.com> Subject: Re: EFI control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a friend is doing a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending money already to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the legwork) by next wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% if you've done your homework and know what you want email mailto:mike@fonebooth.com who's doing the groupbuy for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax savings on top of that..... no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not sure if they have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one last I heard with 3 other 'expected' to sign up At 05:45 PM 2/6/01 , keith hansen wrote: >I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) > >I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by >adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or >purchasing an aftermarket unit. > >Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? > >Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada R200 4.11's available Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most. mailto:280zx@home.com ICQ # 11549358 http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 05:18:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA25332 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:18:08 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA25324 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:18:00 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 13:18:00 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YAT7L>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:17:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:17:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The SDS stuff has such a cheesy, homemade look to it, and it costs more than an Accel system! -----Original Message----- From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:280zx@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:19 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a friend is doing a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending money already to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the legwork) by next wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% if you've done your homework and know what you want email mailto:mike@fonebooth.com who's doing the groupbuy for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax savings on top of that..... no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not sure if they have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one last I heard with 3 other 'expected' to sign up At 05:45 PM 2/6/01 , keith hansen wrote: >I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) > >I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by >adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or >purchasing an aftermarket unit. > >Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? > >Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada R200 4.11's available Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most. mailto:280zx@home.com ICQ # 11549358 http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 06:15:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA25700 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 06:15:02 -0800 Received: from csc06keysrva06s.keybank.com (csc06keysrva06s.keybank.com [156.77.98.54]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA25692 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 06:14:55 -0800 From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com Received: by csc06keysrva06s.keybank.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 852569EC.004D2A13 ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:02:50 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: KEYCORP To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-ID: <852569EC.004D28B3.00@csc06keysrva06s.keybank.com> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:14:06 -0500 Subject: Re: MAFs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Actually there is a fair amount of turbulence ahead of the turbo on a suck through system. In my application, I have seen the signal from the (Ford) MAF rise from 1.2v to 2.5 at constant load and constant throttle position in response to turbo RPM at an 80mph cruize. Makes for very annoying highway driving (WOT is fine, but the local police frown on WOT as highway cruize policy). Blow-through also allows the blow-off vale to be vented to atmosphere. Yesterday, I spoke at length with the engineer at Pro-Flow pro-M about pros and cons of blow through and whether either can give consistent readings with a ford MAF on a turbo system. (Ford MAFs is a huge portion of their business) He was very knowlegable but not terribly optomistic--even though he could have sold me some parts by being less honest. He seemed more concerned about any bends in the plumbing than the spinning air from a turbo. But his turbo experience was minimal. They are working on some huge, chambered design that is supposed to be immune to turbulence (not sure at what cost in terms of flow restriction) but it is still too expensive to market $600+. Perhaps I do need to convert to MAP. Anyone here have any experience with the Link AFM? I have also considered a throttle-position based voltage clamp to limit the turbulence-induced enrichment at lower rpms. Not an elegant solution, but relatively easy. Rod 86 944 Turbo. >Hi Bruce, >I wouldn't think that a turbo would have any extra >turbulence before the compressor. Are you saying that >the problems occur when they are used as blow-through >or is it also with normal, pull-through operation? >Regards, >Matt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 07:31:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA26077 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:31:09 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA26073 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:31:02 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207153101.WQTS10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:31:01 -0500 Message-ID: <007901c0911b$05c64bc0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:31:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > The SDS stuff has such a cheesy, homemade look to it, and it costs more than > an Accel system! > From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:280zx@home.com] > if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a friend is doing > a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending money already > to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the legwork) by next > wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% > if you've done your homework and know what you want email > mailto:mike@fonebooth.com > who's doing the groupbuy > for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax savings on > top of that..... > no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not sure if they > have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one last I heard > with 3 other 'expected' to sign up keith hansen wrote: > >I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) > >I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by > >adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or > >purchasing an aftermarket unit. > >Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? > >Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 07:59:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA26556 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:59:03 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA26552 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:58:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PGCN2VM>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:58:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:58:26 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > Bruce > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to survive in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not capable of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I could just be talking out of my ass. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 08:14:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA26761 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:14:58 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA26755 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:14:41 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207161439.WWHH10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:14:39 -0500 Message-ID: <00fd01c09121$1e2ba920$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:14:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as in 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets completely lost. Bruce > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > Bruce > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to survive > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not capable > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I could > just be talking out of my ass. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 08:30:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA26916 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:30:22 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA26912 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:30:15 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 16:30:14 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YA8P8>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:29:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:29:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If the guy selling SDS's hacked it together in his basement, why should I pay more for it? Is it noticably better designed than commercial units? Waterproof? Conformal coated? What's so much better? And his harness SUX! (I designed Automotive EFI harnesses for an OEM) -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:31 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > The SDS stuff has such a cheesy, homemade look to it, and it costs more than > an Accel system! > From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:280zx@home.com] > if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a friend is doing > a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending money already > to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the legwork) by next > wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% > if you've done your homework and know what you want email > mailto:mike@fonebooth.com > who's doing the groupbuy > for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax savings on > top of that..... > no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not sure if they > have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one last I heard > with 3 other 'expected' to sign up keith hansen wrote: > >I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) > >I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by > >adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or > >purchasing an aftermarket unit. > >Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? > >Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 08:43:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:43:43 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA27020 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:43:36 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.96] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 16:43:36 UT Received: by cleohshub01.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1LVA3T0T>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:42:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:43:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Agreed, I was closely involved with the design of a robust ECM for an OEM industrial engine company, and the level of robustness was far above what most of the aftermarket types sell. You can't just throw components on a board, stuff it in an aluminum case and expect it to survive. The customers were always sending units back with problems. And this was a waterproof case, gasketed, conformal coated, EMI shielded, diode protected, etc. ad nauseum. Our harnesses used crosslinked polyethylene wire, waterproof connections at all points, hi temp poly conduit, with hi temp tape over everything. We STILL had problems with stuff melting. NO WAY that SDS harness holds up in an engine environment. His cables appear to be multi-conductor cable available in catalogs. Is his crank signal shielded? Twisted? Doubt it. To be fair, the typical Accel offering isn't up to snuff either. The motronic is nice, but $$$, and the high-end Accel unit is waterproof, but not much better internally than the standard batch box. About the nicest one I've seen is the FP performance one, which has a nice waterproof cast aluminum case, and conformal coated, but the internals are straight from Accel stuff, which makes sense since the guy who started FP performance was one of the original founders of DFI/Accel. He pretty much copied the design. Sorry to be so long winded. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:58 AM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: EFI control > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > Bruce > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to survive in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not capable of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I could just be talking out of my ass. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 08:54:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27207 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:54:21 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA27200 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:54:03 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 16:54:03 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YA9VW>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:53:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:53:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle breaks down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good enough' level. that's what safety factors are for. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:15 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as in 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets completely lost. Bruce > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > Bruce > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to survive > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not capable > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I could > just be talking out of my ass. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 09:32:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA27567 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:32:34 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA27563 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:32:28 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207173226.XFIU10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:32:26 -0500 Message-ID: <015601c0912b$fbab4260$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:32:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Sounds like we've slipped from pretty to engineering. Night Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > If the guy selling SDS's hacked it together in his basement, why should I > pay more for it? Is it noticably better designed than commercial units? > Waterproof? Conformal coated? What's so much better? > And his harness SUX! (I designed Automotive EFI harnesses for an OEM) > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > Bruce > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > > The SDS stuff has such a cheesy, homemade look to it, and it costs more > than > > an Accel system! > > > From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:280zx@home.com] > > if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a friend is > doing > > a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending money already > > to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the legwork) by next > > wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% > > if you've done your homework and know what you want email > > mailto:mike@fonebooth.com > > who's doing the groupbuy > > for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax savings on > > top of that..... > > no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not sure if they > > have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one last I heard > > with 3 other 'expected' to sign up > keith hansen wrote: > > >I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) > > >I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel injectors, either by > > >adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or > > >purchasing an aftermarket unit. > > >Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI controller? > > >Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 09:35:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA27604 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:35:34 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA27600 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:35:27 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207173524.XFSI10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:35:24 -0500 Message-ID: <015c01c0912c$6600f060$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:35:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Might just cut down a lil on the caffeine. Your really trying to mistate what I've said. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle breaks > down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good > enough' > level. that's what safety factors are for. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:15 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as in > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets > completely lost. > Bruce > > > > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > > Bruce > > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to > survive > > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). > > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with > > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not > capable > > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I > could > > just be talking out of my ass. > > > > Eric Bryant > > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:13:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA28690 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:13:16 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA28686 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:13:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PGCNJC5>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:12:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:12:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took > GM almost 20 > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion > pcms a year?. > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the > same box as in > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and > enironment to deal > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, > and KISS gets > completely lost. > Bruce Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want a module that will last many years and work in all sessons, and all conditions, then you really, really do need the level of engineering that the OEMs perform. Sorry, but if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I want something that's going to work within the stated operating parameters. If the vendor claims that the part is good for fair-weather use only and shouldn't be used on a daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that I can bolt his XYZ ECU into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had better comprehend the environment and its effects on his module. So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC behavior? No? So what happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How about thermal shock testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car wash on a hot summer day. Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we have huge potholes. I know that I'm going to come off as yet another young engineer who wants to make everything more complex just for the sake of doing so. It's just that I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm clock, much less in a automotive environment where I'm trusting my equipment (and maybe even my safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly engineered. End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone what parts to run in their car - all I can do is set standards for my own stuff. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:15:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA28707 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:15:14 -0800 Received: from web10006.mail.yahoo.com (web10006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA28703 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:15:04 -0800 Message-ID: <20010207181500.43921.qmail@web10006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.170.89.4] by web10006.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:15:00 PST Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:15:00 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson Subject: Re: MAFs To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <852569EC.004D28B3.00@csc06keysrva06s.keybank.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi Rod, Thanks for the information. I used to have a 951 also. The pipe length between the MAF and the turbo is pretty short - like 1 foot, right? I guess it takes more pipe length to have a laminer flow back at the MAF. Have you considered adding any air straightening devices to your pipe? Maybe some fins or something? I would suspect that your problem is solvable without changing the basic architecture of your system. Certainly a blow through MAF would have major advantages. But, if it can't get at least 50k reliability then it's not for me. I think that in cases like this it's best to borrow what the OEMs have done. I always ask myself "What would Porsche do?" In this case, on their MAF-based systems, they put it before the turbo. Does any OEM use blow through? Regards, Matt --- Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com wrote: > Actually there is a fair amount of turbulence ahead > of > the turbo on a suck through system. In my > application, I > have seen the signal from the (Ford) MAF rise from > 1.2v > to 2.5 at constant load and constant throttle > position > in response to turbo RPM at an 80mph cruize. Makes > for > very annoying highway driving (WOT is fine, but the > local > police frown on WOT as highway cruize policy). > Blow-through also allows the blow-off vale to be > vented to atmosphere. Yesterday, I spoke at length > with > the engineer at Pro-Flow pro-M about pros and cons > of blow > through and whether either can give consistent > readings > with a ford MAF on a turbo system. (Ford MAFs is a > huge > portion of their business) He was very knowlegable > but not > terribly optomistic--even though he could have sold > me > some parts by being less honest. He seemed more > concerned > about any bends in the plumbing than the spinning > air > from a turbo. But his turbo experience was minimal. > They > are working on some huge, chambered design that is > supposed to be immune to turbulence (not sure at > what > cost in terms of flow restriction) but it is still > too > expensive to market $600+. > Perhaps I do need to convert to MAP. Anyone here > have > any experience with the Link AFM? > > I have also considered a throttle-position based > voltage > clamp to limit the turbulence-induced enrichment at > lower > rpms. Not an elegant solution, but relatively easy. > > Rod > 86 944 Turbo. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:16:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA28721 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:16:58 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA28717 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:16:52 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 18:16:51 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YBB9L>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:16:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:16:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Well, it sounds like you think the more robust boxen are over engineered, where I consider that to be mandatory, as I don't want to walk from pt a to b. That's what the vehicle is for. If I misstated that, forgive me. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:36 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control Might just cut down a lil on the caffeine. Your really trying to mistate what I've said. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle breaks > down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good > enough' > level. that's what safety factors are for. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:15 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as in > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets > completely lost. > Bruce > > > > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > > Bruce > > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to > survive > > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the interior). > > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, with > > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not > capable > > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I > could > > just be talking out of my ass. > > > > Eric Bryant > > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:29:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA28971 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:29:42 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA28964 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:29:35 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207182933.XLNV10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:29:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01ab01c09133$f62bd040$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:29:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading 10x more into a comment then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for reliability more then I. NO ONE. Later Bruce From: "Eric Bryant" > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took > > GM almost 20 > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion > > pcms a year?. > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the > > same box as in > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and > > enironment to deal > > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, > > and KISS gets > > completely lost. > > Bruce > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want a module that will last > many years and work in all sessons, and all conditions, then you really, > really do need the level of engineering that the OEMs perform. Sorry, but > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I want something that's > going to work within the stated operating parameters. If the vendor claims > that the part is good for fair-weather use only and shouldn't be used on a > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that I can bolt his XYZ ECU > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had better comprehend the > environment and its effects on his module. > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC behavior? No? So what > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How about thermal shock > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car wash on a hot summer day. > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we have huge potholes. > I know that I'm going to come off as yet another young engineer who wants to > make everything more complex just for the sake of doing so. It's just that > I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm clock, much less in a > automotive environment where I'm trusting my equipment (and maybe even my > safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly engineered. > End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone what parts to run in > their car - all I can do is set standards for my own stuff. > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:39:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29158 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:39:41 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA29151 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:39:29 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.47]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207183927.XMVV10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:39:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01b301c09135$5809b7e0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:39:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No, and Yes, No problem. I think the design and execution of the current pcms is at least elegant. But, it didn't happen over night, and an aftermarket companies have no where near the talent that say GM does. But, that doesn't mean there can't be other answers for other applications. All things being Equal, I'd rather forgo pretty packaging. Pretty like they say is skin deep. Well executed, reliable, are all seperate issues. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Well, it sounds like you think the more robust boxen are over engineered, > where I consider that to be mandatory, as I don't want to walk from pt a to > b. > That's what the vehicle is for. If I misstated that, forgive me. > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Might just cut down a lil on the caffeine. > Your really trying to mistate what I've said. > Bruce > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > > I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle > breaks > > down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good > > enough' > > level. that's what safety factors are for. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:15 AM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > > > > > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as > in > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal > > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets > > completely lost. > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > > > Bruce > > > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > > > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to > > survive > > > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the > interior). > > > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, > with > > > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > > > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not > > capable > > > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > > > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I > > could > > > just be talking out of my ass. > > > > > > Eric Bryant > > > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > > > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:41:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29202 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:41:44 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA29196 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:41:36 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.96] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 18:41:35 UT Received: by cleohshub01.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1LVA3YS0>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I agree fully with this. The typical aftermarket box just doesn't cut it. Function maybe at the track, but not in the usual daily environment. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:13 PM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: EFI control Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want a module that will last many years and work in all sessons, and all conditions, then you really, really do need the level of engineering that the OEMs perform. Sorry, but if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I want something that's going to work within the stated operating parameters. If the vendor claims that the part is good for fair-weather use only and shouldn't be used on a daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that I can bolt his XYZ ECU into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had better comprehend the environment and its effects on his module. So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC behavior? No? So what happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How about thermal shock testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car wash on a hot summer day. Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we have huge potholes. I know that I'm going to come off as yet another young engineer who wants to make everything more complex just for the sake of doing so. It's just that I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm clock, much less in a automotive environment where I'm trusting my equipment (and maybe even my safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly engineered. End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone what parts to run in their car - all I can do is set standards for my own stuff. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:52:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29508 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:52:57 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA29498 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:52:48 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.96] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 18:52:48 UT Received: by cleohshub01.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1LVA3ZBD>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:52:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:52:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org So let's boil this down Bruce, what do you mean? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:30 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading 10x more into a comment then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for reliability more then I. NO ONE. Later Bruce From: "Eric Bryant" > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took > > GM almost 20 > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion > > pcms a year?. > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the > > same box as in > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and > > enironment to deal > > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, > > and KISS gets > > completely lost. > > Bruce > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want a module that will last > many years and work in all sessons, and all conditions, then you really, > really do need the level of engineering that the OEMs perform. Sorry, but > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I want something that's > going to work within the stated operating parameters. If the vendor claims > that the part is good for fair-weather use only and shouldn't be used on a > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that I can bolt his XYZ ECU > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had better comprehend the > environment and its effects on his module. > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC behavior? No? So what > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How about thermal shock > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car wash on a hot summer day. > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we have huge potholes. > I know that I'm going to come off as yet another young engineer who wants to > make everything more complex just for the sake of doing so. It's just that > I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm clock, much less in a > automotive environment where I'm trusting my equipment (and maybe even my > safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly engineered. > End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone what parts to run in > their car - all I can do is set standards for my own stuff. > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 10:59:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29736 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:59:36 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA29732 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:59:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PGCNJH1>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:58:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:58:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading 10x more > into a comment > then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for reliability > more then I. > NO ONE. > Later > Bruce Yea, I've gathered from your past comments that you definitely give more than a passing thought to reliability. And, knowing the little about electronics that I do, there's certainly some steps that one must go through in order to ensure that a module or a system is reliable. *That's* why I'm so concerned about stuff that looks like it was assembled in someone's basement. I've seen some crap come out of the OEMs, that's for sure - I'm sure we all have. And in many of the cases, most all of the proper steps were taken, and things still went wrong. Now, when few or none of the proper steps are performed, the chances of things going wrong increases drastically. Not only am I concerned about the basic level of engineering, but I'm also just a bit interested in the quality that I'm getting for my investment. I understand that GM can blow millions in developmental costs on a part that they intend to use in a few million cars, and that the average aftermarket guy isn't going to get that sort of volume. But I also understand that we can't use this as an excuse to "let someone off the hook" when they supply an underhood module with underrated wiring and non-sealed connectors, for example. I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this issue, and that I certainly wasn't trying to slam you. Given that, what I said is what I believe to be true. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 11:00:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29755 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:00:22 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA29751 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:00:16 -0800 Received: from node141.ott.qnx.com (funnel2.qnx.com [209.226.137.120]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17571 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:00:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:00:47 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: EFI control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm all for CHEAP! the oem ecms are CHEAP, $35 at the wrecker. they don't come as easy to program as the aftermarket stuff but $965 ( guessing at $1K for a cheap aftermarket ecm) buys alot of my hobby time. Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: { { No, and Yes, { No problem. { I think the design and execution of the current pcms is at least elegant. { But, it didn't happen over night, and an aftermarket companies have no where { near the talent that say GM does. But, that doesn't mean there can't be { other answers for other applications. All things being Equal, I'd rather { forgo pretty packaging. Pretty like they say is skin deep. Well executed, { reliable, are all seperate issues. { Bruce { { { From: "Shirley, Mark R" { > Well, it sounds like you think the more robust boxen are over engineered, { > where I consider that to be mandatory, as I don't want to walk from pt a { to { > b. -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 11:03:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29863 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:03:57 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA29850 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:03:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PGCNJHR>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:03:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:03:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > No, and Yes, > No problem. > I think the design and execution of the current pcms is at > least elegant. > But, it didn't happen over night, and an aftermarket > companies have no where > near the talent that say GM does. Fine - if you're going to design an ECU for aftermarket use, I'd at least expect that you've benchmarked everything you can get your hands on. There's a lot of history out there to be learned from, if one wants to take the time (haven't I heard you say nearly the same thing?). > But, that doesn't mean > there can't be > other answers for other applications. All things being > Equal, I'd rather > forgo pretty packaging. Pretty like they say is skin deep. > Well executed, > reliable, are all seperate issues. There isn't anything "pretty" about a properly-designed enclosure that incorporates proper environmental and EMC protection, or a harness that uses materials and parts that are proper for the job. A well-built PCB assembly isn't just "pretty" - a clean design is likely to be more reliable in the field. When I look at something like the PCM on my desk, I don't just see a "pretty" module; I see a module that someone designed for the environment that it's used in. This isn't just a problem with the aftermarket guys - the motorcycle OEMs are horrible in many of these same aspects. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 11:05:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29922 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:05:34 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA29917 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:05:27 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 19:05:27 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YBD6D>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:04:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:04:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org OK, I guess I look at the exterior and think if the box looks this bad, did they take the time to get the innards right? You can determine a persons work ethic by looking at almost any of their work. As far as beauty being skin deep, I don't think that applies to anything but human beings, as a general rule. As far as the harnesses, I can SEE those on the website, and I KNOW what they are made of. To be fair though, it IS VERY difficult for a non-OEM to produce harnesses that meet OEM-type specs. Harness suppliers aren't setup to provide quantities lower than 30,000 or so. And there is a real dirge of quality weatherproof ECM connections available. The only one I am aware of is Packard's metripak series, and they are pull to seat (read pain-in-the-*ss to assemble). All the rest are proprietary, and not for sale to general public. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:40 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control No, and Yes, No problem. I think the design and execution of the current pcms is at least elegant. But, it didn't happen over night, and an aftermarket companies have no where near the talent that say GM does. But, that doesn't mean there can't be other answers for other applications. All things being Equal, I'd rather forgo pretty packaging. Pretty like they say is skin deep. Well executed, reliable, are all seperate issues. Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Well, it sounds like you think the more robust boxen are over engineered, > where I consider that to be mandatory, as I don't want to walk from pt a to > b. > That's what the vehicle is for. If I misstated that, forgive me. > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Might just cut down a lil on the caffeine. > Your really trying to mistate what I've said. > Bruce > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > > I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle > breaks > > down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good > > enough' > > level. that's what safety factors are for. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:15 AM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > > > > > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took GM almost 20 > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion pcms a year?. > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the same box as > in > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and enironment to deal > > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, and KISS gets > > completely lost. > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > Now, there's a selling point, our's is prettier then brand, x. > > > > Bruce > > > Not that I'm a big fan of using fashion to sell parts, but I'm a firm > > > beliver that there's a certain level of sophistication necessary to > > survive > > > in the automotive environment (whether it's underhood or in the > interior). > > > Look at the PCM for the LT-1 - it's a really nice piece of equipment, > with > > > all the measures necessary to provide reliable operation. I'm seen some > > > aftermarket auto stuff (especially stereo equipment) that's just not > > capable > > > of living for long with thermal cycling, shock, etc. > > > For what it's worth, I'm not familar with the Accel or SDS stuff, so I > > could > > > just be talking out of my ass. > > > > > > Eric Bryant > > > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > > > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 12:12:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30979 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:12:31 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA30975 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:12:24 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.40]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207201222.XZEY10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:12:22 -0500 Message-ID: <01d501c09142$5255d600$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:12:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org This started with the use of the word pretty. Which is cosmetic. Nothing to do with reliability, or engineering. Then, in some relies, things went off on tangents, and engineering. I mentioned KISS, which is just that. Enough to do all that is "reguired". You "first" set the standard of what you want (required), and then go for it. To in hindsight say something was good or bad to a different standard then what it was designed for is not at all fair to the original designer. While now a C3 looks prehistoric, it is so, only by todays standards. Comparing an aftermarket to an oem ecm, are two different matters. One's primary goal is being user friendly, and the other is ham strung by federal regulations. No where have I even implied, reliability is not an issue. I have used nothing but oem ecms in my cars and even at that carry a spare and calibration for it. With my medical stuff, I basically have no immune system, and limited physical endurance, so getting stranded, can turn fatally serious for me. I never said the PCMs were over engineered, just that it took them years, to get to this level. They were also, *forced* to this level of engineering. Without goverment mandates, or warranty concerns, the PCMs would at least software wise be less complicated (well at lest could be). I also, keep in mind this is DIY-EFI. Kludging is allowed, doing things different from oem is to be encouraged, and, that this an **open** dialog. All to often folks see another view as an attack or something. It's supposed to be the free exchange of ideas, or knowledge. Every one is entitled to there own views and opinions. Switching topics mid conversation, can be in effect more of an ego thing, then conversational. The effort to be right about something. Earlier today, the one guys mentions, "How would Porsche do it?". That's is totaly fine, with me, but personally, I'd rather expeiment, and try my own solution. To each his own. Cheers Bruce From: "Shirley, Mark R" > So let's boil this down Bruce, what do you mean? > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading 10x more into a comment > then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for reliability more then I. > NO ONE. > Later > Bruce > From: "Eric Bryant" > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM PCMs. OK, took > > > GM almost 20 > > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about 18 trillion > > > pcms a year?. > > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably would be in the > > > same box as in > > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more heat, and > > > enironment to deal > > > with. Things get to where they are also over engineered, > > > and KISS gets > > > completely lost. > > > Bruce > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from > temps > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see > where > > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want a module that will > last > > many years and work in all sessons, and all conditions, then you really, > > really do need the level of engineering that the OEMs perform. Sorry, but > > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I want something that's > > going to work within the stated operating parameters. If the vendor > claims > > that the part is good for fair-weather use only and shouldn't be used on a > > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that I can bolt his XYZ ECU > > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had better comprehend the > > environment and its effects on his module. > > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC behavior? No? So what > > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How about thermal shock > > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car wash on a hot summer > day. > > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we have huge potholes. > > I know that I'm going to come off as yet another young engineer who wants > to > > make everything more complex just for the sake of doing so. It's just > that > > I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm clock, much less in a > > automotive environment where I'm trusting my equipment (and maybe even my > > safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly engineered. > > End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone what parts to run in > > their car - all I can do is set standards for my own stuff. > > Eric Bryant > > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 12:21:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA31052 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:21:45 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA31048 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:21:39 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.40]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207202138.YAMX10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:21:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01dd01c09143$9d62ad20$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:21:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Other then a true verbal attack, I take nothing as a slam. I just express, what I think is the best solution, or something I've seen. Then also, at times say something off the wall to get some feed back about something that was hashed out along time ago, to see if there are any new opinions or news on something. Trouble is sometimes Grumpy gets to keyboard first Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Bryant" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: RE: EFI control > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > > > > > Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading 10x more > > into a comment > > then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for reliability > > more then I. > > NO ONE. > > Later > > Bruce > > Yea, I've gathered from your past comments that you definitely give more > than a passing thought to reliability. And, knowing the little about > electronics that I do, there's certainly some steps that one must go through > in order to ensure that a module or a system is reliable. *That's* why I'm > so concerned about stuff that looks like it was assembled in someone's > basement. > > I've seen some crap come out of the OEMs, that's for sure - I'm sure we all > have. And in many of the cases, most all of the proper steps were taken, > and things still went wrong. Now, when few or none of the proper steps are > performed, the chances of things going wrong increases drastically. > > Not only am I concerned about the basic level of engineering, but I'm also > just a bit interested in the quality that I'm getting for my investment. I > understand that GM can blow millions in developmental costs on a part that > they intend to use in a few million cars, and that the average aftermarket > guy isn't going to get that sort of volume. But I also understand that we > can't use this as an excuse to "let someone off the hook" when they supply > an underhood module with underrated wiring and non-sealed connectors, for > example. > > I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this issue, and that I > certainly wasn't trying to slam you. Given that, what I said is what I > believe to be true. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 12:26:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA31108 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:26:38 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA31104 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:26:32 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.40]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207202631.YBDU10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:26:31 -0500 Message-ID: <01e301c09144$4bf190e0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:26:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having to carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO Bruce From: "Pat Ford" > I'm all for CHEAP! the oem ecms are CHEAP, $35 at the wrecker. they don't come as easy to program as the aftermarket stuff but $965 ( guessing at $1K for a cheap aftermarket ecm) buys alot of my hobby time. > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > { No, and Yes, > { No problem. > { I think the design and execution of the current pcms is at least elegant. > { But, it didn't happen over night, and an aftermarket companies have no where > { near the talent that say GM does. But, that doesn't mean there can't be > { other answers for other applications. All things being Equal, I'd rather > { forgo pretty packaging. Pretty like they say is skin deep. Well executed, > { reliable, are all seperate issues. > { Bruce > { > { > { From: "Shirley, Mark R" > { > Well, it sounds like you think the more robust boxen are over engineered, > { > where I consider that to be mandatory, as I don't want to walk from pt a > { to > { > b. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 12:29:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA31136 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:29:03 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA31131 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:28:57 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02323 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:25:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:25:32 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't find anything on their site about defined temperature or humidity ranges. Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a daily driver. Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end racing market. A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. So, I don't see the aftermarket pushing insufficiently tested products intended for daily-driver use. I do see them pushing products intended for enthusiast use. Same sort of market where exhaust systems that always need to be bent to fit are sold. Same sort of market where air filters that require regular cleaning and oiling are sold. Same sort of market where cams are sold that will just barely pass smog, not comfortably, and only if the rest of the car is in top tune. Same sort of market where warranties are 60 days to a year, not 5 years. You know, the sort of market that lives where the OEMs can't, with much thinner margins of safety and quality (and profit). If the OEMs pushed the envelope as far as the aftermarket did, we'd all need to do a lot more maintenance and repair work on our cars. But the OEMs serve a wider (sloppier, more careless) market than the aftermarket does. If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket company to produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. Give these people a break. james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 13:04:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA31598 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:04:58 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA31594 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:04:52 -0800 Received: from node141.ott.qnx.com (funnel2.qnx.com [209.226.137.120]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25823 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:05:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:05:27 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: EFI control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Methinks I'll try to take the lead in an emulator design effort, and do a demo disk type thing ( single floppy works on a old 386 laptop. Who else is interested?? DIY_EMU ??? just quick off the top of my head observations dual port ram is expensive, not all the eprom needs to be emulated hows about small d/p ram (16K?) and the rest flash. that way you can do the tables fast ( just swap out pages on the d/p ram) and the program is in slow to prgram cheaper flash, that will servive power outages? Ideas and feedback PLEASE (esp from the EE's) Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: { { All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. { With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having to { carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO { Bruce { { { From: "Pat Ford" { > I'm all for CHEAP! the oem ecms are CHEAP, $35 at the wrecker. they don't { come as easy to program as the aftermarket stuff but $965 ( guessing at $1K { for a cheap aftermarket ecm) buys alot of my hobby time. { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 13:16:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA31703 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:16:20 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA31699 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:16:14 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 21:16:14 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YBJCM>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always fighting the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came with a near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness cost $140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if they price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It was that nice. All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a market for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system like a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing list. If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it will sell itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that there are so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. -----Original Message----- From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:26 PM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: EFI control On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't find anything on their site about defined temperature or humidity ranges. Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a daily driver. Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end racing market. A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. So, I don't see the aftermarket pushing insufficiently tested products intended for daily-driver use. I do see them pushing products intended for enthusiast use. Same sort of market where exhaust systems that always need to be bent to fit are sold. Same sort of market where air filters that require regular cleaning and oiling are sold. Same sort of market where cams are sold that will just barely pass smog, not comfortably, and only if the rest of the car is in top tune. Same sort of market where warranties are 60 days to a year, not 5 years. You know, the sort of market that lives where the OEMs can't, with much thinner margins of safety and quality (and profit). If the OEMs pushed the envelope as far as the aftermarket did, we'd all need to do a lot more maintenance and repair work on our cars. But the OEMs serve a wider (sloppier, more careless) market than the aftermarket does. If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket company to produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. Give these people a break. james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 13:24:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA31850 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:24:36 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f65.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.65]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA31842 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:24:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f65.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.65] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:23:57 -0800 Received: from 205.128.202.55 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:23:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.128.202.55] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:23:57 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2001 21:23:57.0991 (UTC) FILETIME=[481F0B70:01C0914C] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have to agree that there is a large market for a good aftermarket system. (Well at least 3 on the list so far) Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: EFI control >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:37 -0500 > >Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the >same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers >as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual >that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was >no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always >fighting >the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. > >I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower >volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came with >a > >near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes >of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness cost >$140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if they >price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It >was >that nice. > >All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a >market >for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system >like >a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing >list. > >If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it will >sell >itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that >there >are >so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. > >-----Original Message----- >From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:26 PM >To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' >Subject: RE: EFI control > > >On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from >temps > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see >where > > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > >So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't >find anything on their site about defined temperature or humidity ranges. >Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a daily driver. >Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about >using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end >racing market. > >A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. > >So, I don't see the aftermarket pushing insufficiently tested products >intended for daily-driver use. I do see them pushing products intended >for enthusiast use. Same sort of market where exhaust systems that always >need to be bent to fit are sold. Same sort of market where air filters >that require regular cleaning and oiling are sold. Same sort of market >where cams are sold that will just barely pass smog, not comfortably, >and only if the rest of the car is in top tune. Same sort of market >where warranties are 60 days to a year, not 5 years. > >You know, the sort of market that lives where the OEMs can't, with much >thinner margins of safety and quality (and profit). If the OEMs pushed >the envelope as far as the aftermarket did, we'd all need to do a lot >more maintenance and repair work on our cars. But the OEMs serve a wider >(sloppier, more careless) market than the aftermarket does. > >If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket company to >produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. >Give these people a break. > >james montebello > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 13:40:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA32128 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:39 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA32123 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114] claimed to be fw-austin.austin.arm.com Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id PAA07850; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:40:31 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma007848; Wed, 7 Feb 01 15:40:18 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25316 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:40:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A81BFE1.6802E7F8@arm.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:36:33 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EFI control References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Eric Aos is/was working on an emulator, how's it coming? Hello? Eric? Here's the info he made available for it: http://www.spiritone.com/~eoa/Cars/EFI/Emulator.htm Pat Ford wrote: > > Methinks I'll try to take the lead in an emulator design effort, and do a demo disk type thing ( single floppy works on a old 386 laptop. Who else is interested?? > DIY_EMU ??? -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 14:20:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA32665 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:20:58 -0800 Received: from mail.fwi.com (root@mail.fwi.com [209.84.160.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA32661 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:20:52 -0800 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-11.fwi.com [209.84.174.76]) by mail.fwi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA22027; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:20:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <098401c09155$94abab20$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: Cc: References: <000a01c0908c$9c8a3ba0$5ecdfea9@jrh> <008301c090d3$457b94c0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: Running 8 low impedence injectors on GM ECM using an auxilliary injector driver? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:30:25 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Doesn't the Accel VIC trigger all 8 injectors at once based on a single input trigger? Could this cause any driveability problems on the 1990 Camaro/Firebird V8 and other similar GM ECM's? What about bank fire systems? Jason > The Accel VIC product is made for exactly what you describe. Two input > channels controlling two banks of four low impedance injectors each. I like > the added feature of adjustable pulse trim per injector, in spite of the > fact that the control architecture remains batch with a VIC. I think the > VIC is an excellent product and would not hesitate using external drivers > (custom or commercial) to control low impedance (or odd gangs) of injectors > that are to be triggered by OE style boxes not originally intended for same. > This holds true for port fuel or TBI fuel. Makes good sense as: 1)the > injectors each get the current that they were intended for, if the external > box is done "right", and 2)the ECM/PCM/ECU is relegated to handling nothing > more than low current level triggering duties, which won't hurt it's life > cycle in the least. Win/Win situation, if you have to use an OE box that > does not encompass your injector count/type. I use a number of LM1949 based > "boxes" in what I play with, and have not yet had any problems. > > Walt. > > > > > > Has anyone ever tried running 8 low impedance injectors with an auxiliary > > injector driver that is triggered by a GM ECM (like a 1990 F-body ECM)? > > Accel/DFI makes a low impedance injector driver/controller that allows EFI > > systems for high impedance injectors to trigger low impudence injectors. > We > > have used this system on some of the Accel/DFI applications (before they > > came out with an ECM that could control low impedance injectors directly). > > Anyone see any problems controlling this device from a GM factory ECM? > Would > > you use one to control all 8 or two, one to control each bank of 4 > > injectors? > > > > > > Jason > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 14:40:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA00443 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:40:40 -0800 Received: from comet.connix.com (root@comet.connix.com [198.69.10.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA00438 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:40:34 -0800 Received: from connix.com (c5300-4-ip134.albany.thebiz.net [216.238.227.134]) by comet.connix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08863 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:40:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A81C3B9.802AC345@connix.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:53:33 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Organization: ww.connix.com/~bshaw/william.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Emulator (was EFI control) References: <200102072126.NAA31881@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org You've got at least one interested, but it would need to support the '749, so 128K bits. 1 Flash, 1 static ram, muxes and PIC? I can do the PIC stuff, I have a PICmaster. It does get more complicated, but with surface mount it can still be reasonably sized. On startup, copy the flash to ram and run the ecu out of ram. When changes come in the serial port switch the ecu to flash, make changes to ram, then switch the ecu back to ram. May also be able to interleave PIC and ECU cycles in ram, so the switching and multiplexing isn't necessary, I'd have to investigate that more. If possible it would take some signals from the ECU not available on the prom socket. bs Pat Ford wrote: > > Methinks I'll try to take the lead in an emulator design effort, and do a demo disk type thing ( single floppy works on a old 386 laptop. Who else is interested?? > DIY_EMU ??? > > just quick off the top of my head observations > dual port ram is expensive, > not all the eprom needs to be emulated > > hows about small d/p ram (16K?) and the rest flash. > > that way you can do the tables fast ( just swap out pages on the d/p ram) and the program is in slow to prgram cheaper flash, that will servive power outages? > > Ideas and feedback PLEASE (esp from the EE's) > > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > { > { All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > { With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having to > { carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > { Bruce > { > { > { From: "Pat Ford" > { > I'm all for CHEAP! the oem ecms are CHEAP, $35 at the wrecker. they don't > { come as easy to program as the aftermarket stuff but $965 ( guessing at $1K > { for a cheap aftermarket ecm) buys alot of my hobby time. > { > > - -- > Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 14:54:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA00685 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:54:38 -0800 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA00679 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:54:32 -0800 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 14QdTw-000CdO-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:54:36 -0800 Message-ID: <00fd01c09159$153f4a00$0100a8c0@telus.net> From: "John Dammeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:51:53 -0800 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have a question about this. I've seen on Crank & Chrome the use of the Holley Fuel Injection upgrade kit. Is this also poor quality? Can someone with experience in these various EFI systems post a comparison with a good and bad listing of each. We;'ve seen Cable/harness/connectors as Bad for SDS but what's good about it? Thanks, John Dammeyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin ivan" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: RE: EFI control > I have to agree that there is a large market for a good aftermarket system. > (Well at least 3 on the list so far) > Justin > > > >From: "Shirley, Mark R" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" > >Subject: RE: EFI control > >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:37 -0500 > > > >Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the > >same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers > >as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual > >that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was > >no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always > >fighting > >the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. > > > >I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower > >volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came with > >a > > > >near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes > >of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness cost > >$140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if they > >price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It > >was > >that nice. > > > >All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a > >market > >for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system > >like > >a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing > >list. > > > >If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it will > >sell > >itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that > >there > >are > >so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:26 PM > >To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > >Subject: RE: EFI control > > > > > >On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why the > > > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from > >temps > > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see > >where > > > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > > > >So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't > >find anything on their site about defined temperature or humidity ranges. > >Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a daily driver. > >Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about > >using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end > >racing market. > > > >A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. > > > >So, I don't see the aftermarket pushing insufficiently tested products > >intended for daily-driver use. I do see them pushing products intended > >for enthusiast use. Same sort of market where exhaust systems that always > >need to be bent to fit are sold. Same sort of market where air filters > >that require regular cleaning and oiling are sold. Same sort of market > >where cams are sold that will just barely pass smog, not comfortably, > >and only if the rest of the car is in top tune. Same sort of market > >where warranties are 60 days to a year, not 5 years. > > > >You know, the sort of market that lives where the OEMs can't, with much > >thinner margins of safety and quality (and profit). If the OEMs pushed > >the envelope as far as the aftermarket did, we'd all need to do a lot > >more maintenance and repair work on our cars. But the OEMs serve a wider > >(sloppier, more careless) market than the aftermarket does. > > > >If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket company to > >produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. > >Give these people a break. > > > >james montebello > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 15:24:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA01091 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:24:30 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA01085 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:24:22 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02649 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:20:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Production costs are only a small part of the problem. Have you ever worked out costs for support, personnel, marketing, distribution, etc.? Products, even really good products, don't sell themselves. This is a very common misconception, particularly among engineers. The higher the volume you're trying to push, the higher your marketing and support expenses will be. Then there are liability issues. The broader your customer base, the dumber it is, and the dumber your customer base, the greater your liability exposure. Lawyers can be really, really nasty. The general rule of thumb is, to simply break even, you have to charge 3x the total unit cost, even at very large volumes (Sony/GM/IBM level volumes). The $390 unit cost you quote for your design means a retail price of $1200 for *break-even*. Add a razor-thin 10% profit margin, and you're looking at $1300 a pop. About what a full blown SDS or basic Electromotive system will run. Now you have to explain to the potential buyers why your unit is so much better than all those others on the market, and do so in terms they can understand. To get 2000+ units per year, you have to sell to a big market, including lots of ads in various magazines, stumping at trade shows, schmoozing with the trade press, etc. All this work for a grand $250K per year profit, assuming you manage to sell 2000 units per year. I'm willing to bet SDS is NOT selling that many. Note that none of this has anything to do with designing or building the ECU or associated wiring itself. Note that none of this has ANYTHING to do with the quality of the unit. You sell based on perceived quality, not actual quality, particularly as a new entrant into an already hot market. If you want to built an OEM quality ECU that will mount up to MY car, be absolutely trouble-free, and will sell for significantly less than any of the other available units, then I'll be first in line to buy one from you. I'll make sure to be early so I grab one before you go bankrupt. You'll be the last in a long line of like-minded engineers who simply don't understand the business side of the operation, and think that quality will sell itself. james montebello On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Shirley, Mark R wrote: > Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the > same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers > as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual > that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was > no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always > fighting > the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. > > I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower > volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came with a > > near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes > of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness cost > $140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if they > price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It was > that nice. > > All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a > market > for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system like > a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing > list. > > If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it will > sell > itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that there > are > so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 15:39:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA01286 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:39:36 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA01282 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:39:30 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.40]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010207233922.ZHAV10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:39:22 -0500 Message-ID: <02f601c0915f$3927bc80$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <00fd01c09159$153f4a00$0100a8c0@telus.net> Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:39:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Was a lister that had problems with the IAC driver failing (several times). Repair cost $319 as I recall. Holley makes great carbs, but IMO is about clueless in EFI. Note they bought I think it was Cutler EFI for a source to break into the multiport. If you read up on Cutler, tehn you can see how they're thinking. Try a made up quesstion to their tech line, Hehehehehehehee Guys I talked to had no clue about EFI. Truely sad, but about to be expected. Now, that they have been bought out I just expect things to get even worse there. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dammeyer" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: Re: EFI control > I have a question about this. I've seen on Crank & Chrome the use of the > Holley Fuel Injection upgrade kit. Is this also poor quality? Can someone > with experience in these various EFI systems post a comparison with a good > and bad listing of each. We;'ve seen Cable/harness/connectors as Bad for > SDS but what's good about it? > > Thanks, > > John Dammeyer > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin ivan" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:23 PM > Subject: RE: EFI control > > > > I have to agree that there is a large market for a good aftermarket > system. > > (Well at least 3 on the list so far) > > Justin > > > > > > >From: "Shirley, Mark R" > > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > >To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" > > >Subject: RE: EFI control > > >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:37 -0500 > > > > > >Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the > > >same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers > > >as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual > > >that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was > > >no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always > > >fighting > > >the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. > > > > > >I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower > > >volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came > with > > >a > > > > > >near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes > > >of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness > cost > > >$140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if > they > > >price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It > > >was > > >that nice. > > > > > >All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a > > >market > > >for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system > > >like > > >a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing > > >list. > > > > > >If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it > will > > >sell > > >itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that > > >there > > >are > > >so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] > > >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:26 PM > > >To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > > >Subject: RE: EFI control > > > > > > > > >On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I do understand why > the > > > > requirements have evolved to the point where they're at right now. If > > > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's being operated from > > >temps > > > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry days, then I can see > > >where > > > > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM part provides. > > > > > >So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't > > >find anything on their site about defined temperature or humidity range s. > > >Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a daily driver. > > >Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about > > >using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end > > >racing market. > > > > > >A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. > > > > > >So, I don't see the aftermarket pushing insufficiently tested products > > >intended for daily-driver use. I do see them pushing products intended > > >for enthusiast use. Same sort of market where exhaust systems that > always > > >need to be bent to fit are sold. Same sort of market where air filters > > >that require regular cleaning and oiling are sold. Same sort of market > > >where cams are sold that will just barely pass smog, not comfortably, > > >and only if the rest of the car is in top tune. Same sort of market > > >where warranties are 60 days to a year, not 5 years. > > > > > >You know, the sort of market that lives where the OEMs can't, with much > > >thinner margins of safety and quality (and profit). If the OEMs pushed > > >the envelope as far as the aftermarket did, we'd all need to do a lot > > >more maintenance and repair work on our cars. But the OEMs serve a wider > > >(sloppier, more careless) market than the aftermarket does. > > > > > >If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket company to > > >produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. > > >Give these people a break. > > > > > >james montebello > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > >quotes) > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > >quotes) > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 16:17:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA01735 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:17:16 -0800 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA01731 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:17:09 -0800 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 14Qelu-000Mr1-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:17:14 -0800 Message-ID: <010f01c09164$a0909180$0100a8c0@telus.net> From: "John Dammeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control -- ECON 101 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:18:10 -0800 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'll add my $0.02 here to support what James is saying. I think one of the reasons you see a bunch of wires coming out the hole in the side of the box with sealant or potting compound around the wires is the sheer cost of connectors. Look through the Digikey catalog for panel mounted, water proof connectors capable of higher amperages and you start to see the cost of the unit escalate. You might say, ah well, manufacturers buy in volume so they pay less. There are very few custom or semi-custom manufacturers in the small DIY-EFI marketplace who can afford to buy connectors in 2000 lot quantities. Just imagine each connector with pins is $10. That's $20,000 in inventory sitting there. A microprocessor with Flash memory may also go for $8 to $15 depending on the type. $15,000 for 1000 units is a lot of money for a small manufacturer. If the true cost of components in 1K qty was $250 then we're talking $250,000. At 7% interest this is $17,500 per year to just keep the stuff in stock. Add warehouse space for 1000 units and it's not unlikely that just to keep the stuff you need $30,000 per year to hold onto it. If the units sold for $1000 each the first 40 pay for the cost of having them in stock. Of course with the first 40 sold the interest payments drop because there is $10,000 from the sale of those towards the loan for parts; now we owe $240,000. None of the above takes into consideration the cost of labour to sell this first set of 40 each year. My guess is that most of the smaller EFI companies build no more than about 100 units at a time. For boards that have surface mount components they may have 200 made and populated with the inexpensive parts like resistors and caps because we tend to buy them in 5K reels. Then the more expensive goodies will be assembled by the same guy that also serves as technician, salesman, accountant and designer. Hopefully they sell enough to make the interest payments, pay for the shop space (or the mortgage on their double garage) and reap enough profit to pay a minor salary. Some of these smaller companies usually subsidize their hobby (DIY-EFI) with a real job during the day or by doing electronic hardware/software design as their 'other ' job. Regards, John Dammeyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Montebello" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:20 PM Subject: RE: EFI control > > Production costs are only a small part of the problem. Have you ever > worked out costs for support, personnel, marketing, distribution, etc.? > > Products, even really good products, don't sell themselves. This is a > very common misconception, particularly among engineers. > > The higher the volume you're trying to push, the higher your marketing and > support expenses will be. Then there are liability issues. The broader > your customer base, the dumber it is, and the dumber your customer base, > the greater your liability exposure. Lawyers can be really, really nasty. > > The general rule of thumb is, to simply break even, you have to charge > 3x the total unit cost, even at very large volumes (Sony/GM/IBM level > volumes). The $390 unit cost you quote for your design means a retail > price of $1200 for *break-even*. Add a razor-thin 10% profit margin, > and you're looking at $1300 a pop. About what a full blown SDS or basic > Electromotive system will run. > > Now you have to explain to the potential buyers why your unit is so > much better than all those others on the market, and do so in terms > they can understand. To get 2000+ units per year, you have to sell to > a big market, including lots of ads in various magazines, stumping at > trade shows, schmoozing with the trade press, etc. All this work for > a grand $250K per year profit, assuming you manage to sell 2000 units > per year. I'm willing to bet SDS is NOT selling that many. Note that > none of this has anything to do with designing or building the ECU or > associated wiring itself. Note that none of this has ANYTHING to do > with the quality of the unit. You sell based on perceived quality, not > actual quality, particularly as a new entrant into an already hot market. > > If you want to built an OEM quality ECU that will mount up to MY car, > be absolutely trouble-free, and will sell for significantly less than any > of the other available units, then I'll be first in line to buy one from > you. I'll make sure to be early so I grab one before you go bankrupt. > You'll be the last in a long line of like-minded engineers who simply > don't understand the business side of the operation, and think that > quality will sell itself. > > james montebello > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Shirley, Mark R wrote: > > > Just goes to show that not everybodies definition of enthusiast is the > > same. I don't like trailer queens. I want my cars to be daily drivers > > as well as my hot rods. I have an engine in my truck that is so unusual > > that it needed to have an aftermarket ECM to operate. There simply was > > no other option. It's intended to be a daily driver, but I'm always > > fighting > > the aftermarket EFI since it's not weatherproof. > > > > I know exactly what it costs to design and build a hardened ECM for lower > > volume applications. It used factory sensors, was weatherproof, came with a > > > > near-OEM quality harness, was programmable via laptop, etc. In volumes > > of 2000-5000 pcs per year it ran around $250 to produce. The harness cost > > $140 to produce. That's a pretty tidy profit for the manufacturers if they > > price it at $1000. Heck, they could probably get $1200-1300 for it. It was > > that nice. > > > > All I am saying is that the aftermarket guys can do better, and there's a > > market > > for better quality merchandise without paying $4000 for a racing system like > > a Motronic. There's at least two of us here on this dinky little mailing > > list. > > > > If you give somebody decent quality merchandise for a decent price, it will > > sell > > itself and you'll put your competitors out of business. The fact that there > > are > > so many little EFI systems out there shows that no-one has done this. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 16:42:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA01975 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:42:18 -0800 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id QAA01970 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:42:11 -0800 Received: (qmail 28753 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 00:42:06 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 00:42:06 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id f180eRP15874 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:40:27 -0800 X-envelope-info: Received: from localhost (clayb@localhost) by sonic.net (8.11.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id f180fqH00920 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:41:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:41:52 -0800 (PST) From: Clay B To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: <200102072126.NAA31881@hektor.valesh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Just reading thru the comments on aftermarket ECU's and EMC issues, weather, etc. I agree that the ECU should be noise, vibration, temperature, water, and shock tolerant. I'm sure some mfg's do a better job than others. I would like to point out that the Autronics SMC is available WATERPROOF, as is their CDI box. I've bounced my boat over rough water, and left it baking in the sun. I have no filtering in my power supply lines, and I'm sure the CD wasted spark ignition and alternator make plenty of noise. They supply water sealed connectors at "their" end of the harness, and I used GM weatherpack everywhere else. They use mostly standard GM or Bosch sensors. I've gotten everything soaking wet, and it hasn't bothered it a bit. Just one more datapoint... - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 16:47:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA02023 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:47:12 -0800 Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA02018 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:47:05 -0800 Received: from clarityconnect.com (209.150.253.63) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0b8) for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:50:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3A81EC8A.9C022547@clarityconnect.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:47:06 -0500 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Running 8 low impedence injectors on GM ECM using an auxilliary injector driver? References: <000a01c0908c$9c8a3ba0$5ecdfea9@jrh> <008301c090d3$457b94c0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <098401c09155$94abab20$5ecdfea9@jrh> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org "Jason R. Haines" wrote: > Doesn't the Accel VIC trigger all 8 injectors at once based on a single > input trigger? Not sure, could be. No experience with the product. > Could this cause any driveability problems on the 1990 > Camaro/Firebird V8 and other similar GM ECM's? That is exactly how the 1990 Camato/Firebird ECMs operate, that is, all eight at once. So the VIC would simply allow you to use low impedance injectors. > What about bank fire systems? Such as? The early C3 TBIs? Scot Sealander ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 17:00:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02191 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:00:50 -0800 Received: from ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.196]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA02185 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:00:43 -0800 Received: from ufl.edu (piston.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.199]) by ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08978 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:01:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3A81EFB5.4BA0272E@ufl.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:00:37 -0500 From: Jeff Webb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: gm map sensor References: <20010126154017.37664.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> <3A7307AE.CAFD6162@ufl.edu> <001501c08982$0559d120$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <3A74ACE6.D254C2EA@ufl.edu> <001301c08a58$b6efd520$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <3A78AFF6.4DFB2B8A@ufl.edu> <00a801c08d8f$81c84780$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <3A7C5199.D55585E1@ufl.edu> <001701c08e66$b78f3cc0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I've had a chance to play around with the GM MAP sensor data. I've done a little comparison of the data and equations that people have posted. Here's the URL for the stuff I've been working with. http://mil.ufl.edu/~jwebb/automotive/sensors/pressure/intake-manifold/gm/data/ The gm/contrib directory has the original data files that were posted. "1bar.pdf" shows a comparison of Walter Sherwin's Delco equation for the 1-Bar sensor with Richard Wakeling's experimental data for his 1-Bar sensor. The curve fit for Richard's data is 1 Bar: Vout = 5.0 * (0.010597 Kpa + -0.116564) Volts The slope is very close to Walt's equation but the data is shifted by 0.675128 kPa. This falls within the 1% tolerence of the sensor. That's pretty darn good data, Richard. I also plotted some other data that someone posted long ago (Model 835 and 460). The slopes match very well, but there is a much bigger offset. My guess is that this calibration was done using gauge pressure, or something of the sort. If anyone knows where the data in "gm/contrib/misc/sensor_data.txt" came from, I'd like to know. The plots shown in the datasheets of two new delphi 1-bar sensors (found in "gm/datasheets") also match Walter's equation as well. "2bar.pdf" shows a comparison of Walt's 2-Bar equation with with Richard's 2-bar data. Again, the slope is right on, but there's a little bigger offset of 2.968627 kPa. This is probably within the tolerence of the 2-Bar sensor. 2 Bar: Vout = 5.0 * (0.004980 Kpa + -0.054785) Volts "3bar.pdf" shows a plot of Richard's 3-bar data. Since Walt doesn't have an equation for that, I compared it to the plot shown in the datasheet of a new delco 3-bar sensor (/gm/datasheets/turbo_...). There's quite a bit of difference between the two, so I don't really think that they are supposed to have the same calibration. Since Richard was right on for the 1 and 2-bar sensors, I think his data for the 3-bar would be good as well. I'd like to make a repository for sensor information of this type. If someone has data they would like to submit, please include a file with your name, email, and as much information as possible about how the data was collected. Things like the equipment used, the calibration method, what is experimental and what is calculated, etc. Be especially sure to include the exact part numbers (and identifiying information) of the devices you tested. Richard, if you would send me this info, I would greatly appreciate it. No hurry, though. Thanks again to Walt and Richard for sharing your info. It will be of great use to me and others as well. That's all for now, Jeff Webb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 17:06:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02282 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:06:10 -0800 Received: from ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.196]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA02277 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:06:03 -0800 Received: from ufl.edu (piston.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.199]) by ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08985 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:06:53 -0500 Message-ID: <3A81F0F9.DCC1F97B@ufl.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:06:01 -0500 From: Jeff Webb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Waterproofing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org How is this thing waterproofed? Is the case watertight? What sort of case would you use? Can you submerge it? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd like to hear 'em. Does Autronics have a web site where I can see a picture? Jeff Webb Clay B wrote: > > Just reading thru the comments on aftermarket ECU's and EMC issues, > weather, etc. > > I agree that the ECU should be noise, vibration, temperature, water, and > shock tolerant. > > I'm sure some mfg's do a better job than others. I would like to point out > that the Autronics SMC is available WATERPROOF, as is their CDI box. I've > bounced my boat over rough water, and left it baking in the sun. I have no > filtering in my power supply lines, and I'm sure the CD wasted spark > ignition and alternator make plenty of noise. They supply water sealed > connectors at "their" end of the harness, and I used GM weatherpack > everywhere else. They use mostly standard GM or Bosch sensors. > > I've gotten everything soaking wet, and it hasn't bothered it a bit. Just > one more datapoint... > > - Clay > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 17:33:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:33:58 -0800 Received: from smtp.mtco.com (ns.mtco.com [207.179.200.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA02711 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:33:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ns.mtco.com [207.179.200.2] claimed to be smtp.mtco.com Received: (qmail 18522 invoked by alias); 8 Feb 2001 01:33:41 -0000 Received: from tnt13-1-247.mtco.com (HELO mtco.com) (207.179.206.247) by ns.mtco.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 01:33:41 -0000 Message-ID: <3A81F654.FE7A7805@mtco.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:28:52 -0600 From: Tom Sharpe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org It's available from Summit!!! TWS 944Technologist wrote: > The fiberglass intake manifold is interesting. No heat transfer to the air > like in an aluminum manifold. Years ago, I was thinking about coating the > interior of my aluminum manifold with polyester resin but I am not sure it > would stay for long. > > Now, I would like to find a DIY ceramic coating. Something that I can coat > the interior and exterior of an aluminum intake manifold and bake in a > conventional "kitchen" oven. I have seen the material on the net but no > where to buy it. Not in small quantities anyway. Anyone know where it can be > bought in small quantities? > > FR Wilk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 19:23:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA03454 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:05 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe28.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.85]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA03450 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:22:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe28.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.85] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:22:27 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.197.168] From: "944Technologist" To: Subject: BOSCH Liscensed or not Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:24:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2001 03:22:27.0958 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D0F8960:01C0917E] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There are many performance EPROM companies. But 95% of there products are copyrighted to BOSCH. They are only making a few changes to a few tables and then sticking their copyright on it. It is my opinion that a aftermarket chip copyright is worthless. That BOSCH was not and does not support the practice. Any modification to a BOSCH box must be done by BOSCH or its certified agents. If BOSCH does not follow through with litigation does not mean that BOSCH is giving permission. How true is my statement? Are any of you older DIY members aware of any court cases or of any licensing or royalty. Can anyone fill me in with article or web sites to look at? I have researched this and even contacted someone at BOSCH. Any enlightenment, criticism, or debate would be appreciated. I just want to know the facts. FR Wilk BOSCH ML1.2 http://members.tripod.com/prsch944/dme.htm 8Þ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 19:21:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA03436 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:21:51 -0800 Received: from mail10.speakeasy.net (mail10.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.210]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id TAA03432 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:21:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 9669 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2001 05:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jawbreaker) ([64.81.134.157]) (envelope-sender ) by mail10.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Feb 2001 05:53:12 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20010207005810.00fca674@mail.speakeasy.org> X-Sender: synchris@mail.speakeasy.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 00:58:11 -0500 To: From: Chris Conlon Subject: Re: MAFs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A couple tangential comments... At 07:07 AM 2/6/01 +0100, Axel Rietschin wrote: >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >> How about the shear fact that if the IAT compensation is internal to the >> MAF, then the metering allows for heat saturation of the I/C. What's the time constant on the MAF's temperature correction? The one *circuit diagram* I saw did temp compensation via a temp sensor (RTD I think) as one leg of the bridge. Whatever the constant is I bet (hope!) it's a lot better than the 20sec value Axel gives for other sensors. > >What comes in, comes out, no? Less temp, more density, less speed but same >amount of _air_, or did I miss something? Yes, you missed a small point. The location of the MAF (before or after the compressor), in a system that has a significant volume of plumbing after the compressor *does* make a difference. The reason being the "air through MAF = air into engine" relationship is only true in steady state. When the pressure post-compressor is changing, up or down, the airflow through the MAF is not equal to flow into the engine. Some is being either pumped up into the plumbing, or delivered from the pumped up volume into the engine. I've measured this effect on my supercharged MR2 and it is very real. It's a very small lag in terms of watching a boost gauge but in terms of throttle response it's very very noticable... if you have a differently-responding setup to compare it to anyway. Questions about turbulence are very valid. An OEM engineer has reported to me that they flowtest the entire intake system and meter as a unit to generate each ECU's MAF voltage to airflow lookup table. >to what extent? T63 constant of automotive air temp sensors I know of (Bosch >& Marelli) is in the 20s range, meaning it takes about a full minute to get >an accurate reading, which rule out most 'real-time' control strategies >based on that value. I'm guessing that those sensors are designed for measuring ambient temp, not post-compressor temps? One thing you can do to greatly sharpen up the response of temp sensors is to make a first order slope correction. Measure temp (call it C), calculate dC/dt, and add k * dC/dt to the raw value C. Use this sum as your "actual" temp. You'll have to do some futzing to get k, but a couple of datalogs plus a heat gun should get you close fast. This is lots easier if your temp sensor is a bandgap or t-couple that reads a voltage directly proportional to absolute temperature, eg. TMP3x series. If you're using a thermistor you want to linearize the result to actual degrees before doing the math. The more resolution you have, the better this works, and the faster/more accurately you can compensate the value. A couple of MAP sensors now come with integrated temp sensors. I doubt their tc is very fast but they might be useful for someone. Chris C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 19:42:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA03755 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:42:18 -0800 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA03750 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:42:10 -0800 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:42:07 -0500 Received: from [216.64.100.17] by grolen.com id b5480.wrk; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:42:16 EDT Message-ID: <3A8214F8.C184092F@grolen.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:39:36 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating References: <3A81F654.FE7A7805@mtco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I use 2 sources. Summit racing, and Speedway Racing in Lincoln, Nebraska. Plan to invest plenty of time in a coating job. Shannen Tom Sharpe wrote: > > It's available from Summit!!! TWS > > 944Technologist wrote: > > > Now, I would like to find a DIY ceramic coating. Something that I can coat > > the interior and exterior of an aluminum intake manifold and bake in a > > conventional "kitchen" oven. I have seen the material on the net but no > > where to buy it. Not in small quantities anyway. Anyone know where it can be > > bought in small quantities? > > > > FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 20:08:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA04042 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:08:37 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe15.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.119]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA04030 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:08:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe15.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.119] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:08:00 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.197.168] From: "944Technologist" To: References: <3A81F654.FE7A7805@mtco.com> <3A8214F8.C184092F@grolen.com> Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:09:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2001 04:08:00.0767 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9F118F0:01C09184] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, This thread has been dead for months. It was active about the time the system crashed. Are you both just now getting email delivered? Old mail hung up due to the system crash maybe? FR Wilk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannen Durphey" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating > I use 2 sources. Summit racing, and Speedway Racing in Lincoln, Nebraska. Plan to > invest plenty of time in a coating job. > > Shannen > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > It's available from Summit!!! TWS > > > > 944Technologist wrote: > > > > > Now, I would like to find a DIY ceramic coating. Something that I can coat > > > the interior and exterior of an aluminum intake manifold and bake in a > > > conventional "kitchen" oven. I have seen the material on the net but no > > > where to buy it. Not in small quantities anyway. Anyone know where it can be > > > bought in small quantities? > > > > > > FR Wilk > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 20:56:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA04402 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:56:29 -0800 Received: from spdmraac.compuserve.com (ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA04398 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:56:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154] claimed to be spdmraac.compuserve.com Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id XAA07025 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from HOMEXXL (mun-qbu-kly-vty7.as.wcom.net [195.232.109.7]) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id XAA07011 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:55:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003801c0918b$5194c5c0$076de8c3@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: <3.0.32.20010207005810.00fca674@mail.speakeasy.org> Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:55:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Conlon" > >What comes in, comes out, no? Less temp, more density, less speed but same > >amount of _air_, or did I miss something? > > Yes, you missed a small point. The location of the MAF (before or after > the compressor), in a system that has a significant volume of plumbing > after the compressor *does* make a difference. The reason being the > "air through MAF = air into engine" relationship is only true in steady > state. When the pressure post-compressor is changing, up or down, the > airflow through the MAF is not equal to flow into the engine. Some is > being either pumped up into the plumbing, or delivered from the pumped > up volume into the engine. You mean you can get a faster response from the MAF (less lag) when it's located closer to the engine because the plumbing volume introduces an additional delay? I didn't think if it at first but I see no problem with that. > I've measured this effect on my supercharged MR2 and it is very real. > It's a very small lag in terms of watching a boost gauge but in terms > of throttle response it's very very noticable... if you have a > differently-responding setup to compare it to anyway. For the above reason, I easily believe it. It's just that the MAF-after-IC for temp correctness or whathever still is a no-no (or a yes-yes, I mean before or after the IC and/or compressor is exactly the same thing as far as air mass in concerned) On the other hand, faster response is very desirable and it this respect, a MAP sensor (2ms response time) in the inlet manifold is hard to beat. > Questions about turbulence are very valid. An OEM engineer has reported > to me that they flowtest the entire intake system and meter as a unit > to generate each ECU's MAF voltage to airflow lookup table. It that respect, the steadiest, less turbulent flow is likely to be found right after a large volume airbox. > > > >to what extent? T63 constant of automotive air temp sensors I know of (Bosch > >& Marelli) is in the 20s range, meaning it takes about a full minute to get > >an accurate reading, which rule out most 'real-time' control strategies > >based on that value. > > I'm guessing that those sensors are designed for measuring ambient temp, > not post-compressor temps? Air charge temp. They are usually found in the inlet manifold. So called fast sensors are usually in the 10s range, which still gives us about half a minute to get a true reading. > One thing you can do to greatly sharpen up the response of temp sensors > is to make a first order slope correction. Measure temp (call it C), > calculate dC/dt, and add k * dC/dt to the raw value C. Use this sum as > your "actual" temp. You'll have to do some futzing to get k, but a couple > of datalogs plus a heat gun should get you close fast. It may be that the OEM ECUs are doing this? Dunno. For NA applications, I don't think they bother. > This is lots easier if your temp sensor is a bandgap or t-couple that > reads a voltage directly proportional to absolute temperature, eg. TMP3x > series. If you're using a thermistor you want to linearize the result to > actual degrees before doing the math. The more resolution you have, the > better this works, and the faster/more accurately you can compensate the > value. Definitely. For info, I use a custom-made air temp sensor (using a Thermometrics FP07 NTC sensing element) for my own engine. This baby has a time constant of 100ms in still air (7ms in water), just to say I'm _very_ concerned with sensor response :) > A couple of MAP sensors now come with integrated temp sensors. I doubt > their tc is very fast but they might be useful for someone. > > > Chris C. -- Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 22:15:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA05220 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:15:11 -0800 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA05211 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:14:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 4110 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 06:14:45 -0000 Received: from buzz.sonic.net (208.201.224.78) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 06:14:45 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (d59.pm.sonic.net [208.201.229.59]) by buzz.sonic.net (8.11.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id f186Emq02554 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:14:49 -0800 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3A82380D.B524C10C@sonic.net> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:09:17 -0800 From: clayb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Waterproofing References: <200102080324.TAA03469@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:06:01 -0500 > From: Jeff Webb > Subject: Waterproofing > > How is this thing waterproofed? Is the case watertight? What sort of > case would you use? Can you submerge it? If anyone has any > suggestions, I'd like to hear 'em. > > Does Autronics have a web site where I can see a picture They do a real waterproof case, billet aluminum with O-ring, that is serviceable (NOT potted). Yes, it can be submerged, it is intended for marine use. As an interesting side note, the MAP sensor is internal, gotta run a hose to the box. Pretty expensive, if you've gone the AN hose route to seal in the 20 psi boost... http://www.turbofast.com.au/autronic/autronic.html - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 22:48:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA05386 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:48:43 -0800 Received: from mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com (mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com [24.2.10.84]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA05382 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:48:37 -0800 Received: from cr857883-a ([24.113.222.189]) by mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010208064827.GXZG25505.mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com@cr857883-a> for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:48:27 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010207224243.00b5e6b0@mail> X-Sender: 280zx@mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:52:19 -0800 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Ross Corrigan <280zx@home.com> Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 08:53 AM 2/7/01 , you wrote: >I don't know about you Bruce, I really don't like it when my vehicle breaks >down in the middle of nowhere because it's only engineered to 'just good >enough' >level. that's what safety factors are for. did it break down?? Seems v. heated comments in any case let alone for someone who hasn't used SDS's equipment. I know several users going on a few years now using it on daily driven turbo cars doing 125hp+/litre and a few in California running it on race 510's. Most of them have played with other systems and just came to enjoy the easy adjustability of the SDS and fair value in their opinion. It seems to nicely support some imports down south that are doing 1320's in high 8's or low 9's, I don't recall exactly. My simple point is that it does seem to work and I wasn't plugging it just to help ensure a group got their discount. If friends I trust or myself have had good experience with a product I like to support it, as we've all had enough bad experiences it's nice to share the good ones which this list does so nicely. I've got the plainest of wires as the few running around my engine compartment for over 6 yrs now with no discernable damage and once my new EFI is installed I still see no reason to have any problems with heat/weather on my wiring. I haven't seen anyone yet with an aftermarket ECU in their engine bay either, if harness is short we extend it to reach the cabin, so maybe I'm out of the loop. SDS will also build your harness to whatever length you desire and on a few occasions even rebuilt some harnesses for free later after customers needs changed. If anything their web FAQ's and other info are appreciable and have helped way more than we'll ever know, as has the pages associated with this and the sister lists. Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada R200 4.11's available Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most. mailto:280zx@home.com ICQ # 11549358 http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 7 23:58:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA05844 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:58:02 -0800 Received: from web11501.mail.yahoo.com (web11501.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.46]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id XAA05839 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:57:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20010208075752.47736.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [136.1.1.101] by web11501.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:57:52 PST Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Subject: Re:EFI control To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <200102072126.NAA31881@hektor.valesh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi there With reference to non OEM ECU's. I have worked in the automotive electrical / electronic field for many years and I must say that in many cases the aftermarket ECU is far better in quality than the OEM module, take a look at Motec. Of the OEM's I would say Bosch are amongst the best all round and the Ford EEC the worst. Roy --- DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 > Volume 05 : Number 482 > > > > In this issue: > > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > Re: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > > See the end of the digest for information on > subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:59 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: EFI control > > I agree fully with this. The typical aftermarket > box just doesn't cut it. > Function maybe at the track, but not in the usual > daily environment. > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:13 PM > To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > Subject: RE: EFI control > > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I > do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're > at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's > being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry > days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM > part provides. > > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want > a module that will last > many years and work in all sessons, and all > conditions, then you really, > really do need the level of engineering that the > OEMs perform. Sorry, but > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I > want something that's > going to work within the stated operating > parameters. If the vendor claims > that the part is good for fair-weather use only and > shouldn't be used on a > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that > I can bolt his XYZ ECU > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had > better comprehend the > environment and its effects on his module. > > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC > behavior? No? So what > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How > about thermal shock > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car > wash on a hot summer day. > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we > have huge potholes. > > I know that I'm going to come off as yet another > young engineer who wants to > make everything more complex just for the sake of > doing so. It's just that > I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm > clock, much less in a > automotive environment where I'm trusting my > equipment (and maybe even my > safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly > engineered. > > End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone > what parts to run in > their car - all I can do is set standards for my own > stuff. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:52:11 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: EFI control > > So let's boil this down Bruce, what do you mean? > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:30 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading > 10x more into a comment > then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for > reliability more then I. > NO ONE. > Later > Bruce > > From: "Eric Bryant" > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM > PCMs. OK, took > > > GM almost 20 > > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about > 18 trillion > > > pcms a year?. > > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably > would be in the > > > same box as in > > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more > heat, and > > > enironment to deal > > > with. Things get to where they are also over > engineered, > > > and KISS gets > > > completely lost. > > > Bruce > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I > do understand why the > > requirements have evolved to the point where > they're at right now. If > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's > being operated from > temps > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry > days, then I can see > where > > you don't need the level of engineering that an > OEM part provides. > > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you > want a module that will > last > > many years and work in all sessons, and all > conditions, then you really, > > really do need the level of engineering that the > OEMs perform. Sorry, but > > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I > want something that's > > going to work within the stated operating > parameters. If the vendor > claims > > that the part is good for fair-weather use only > and shouldn't be used on a > > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming > that I can bolt his XYZ ECU > > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had > better comprehend the > > environment and its effects on his module. > > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC > behavior? No? So what > > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How > about thermal shock > > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car > wash on a hot summer > day. > > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we > have huge potholes. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 01:59:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA06697 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:59:09 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA06693 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:58:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14] claimed to be localhost.localdomain Received: from casema.net (IDENT:arnaud@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02059 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:39:06 +0100 Message-ID: <3A82693A.65E8FCCA@casema.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:39:06 +0100 From: Arnaud Westenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Transistor Ignition question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, I have some questions about my motorcycle ignition. It's a transistor ignition from 1980 for four cylinders with pick up sensors and wasted spark setup (Suzuki gsx1100 '80). Problem is that one of the two transistors is broken and I don't have a clue what type it is. I've tried replacing it with a 'normal' transistor rated at high voltage, can't remember the voltage exactly but I believe it was around 400V. This worked for a while, although with a less powerfull spark at low rpm, but like expected it broke again. I guess it couldn't handle the high levels of voltage and current at the same time? I've read an application note about IGBTs and I think that such a transistor might work in the old ignition system. Reading about the IGBTs protection/operating area makes me quite confident that such a transistor wouldn't break in this application. Probably IGBT's are specifically designed for automotive use? I'd like to know if you think a IGBT would work, how to select one and where (what kind of store) I can order one without having to buy 10,000 of them. (I'm from the Netherlands). The only selection criteria I can think of is the basis lead voltage level at wich the transistor switches, but again I don't know this level either. I could try to get an indication of this voltage with an oscilloscope (PC card) provided this voltage isn't influenced by removing the transistor?? Could someone please talk me through this because a new ignition module costs around $400 (USD) so there's quite some budget available to find a suitable transistor? Guess I don't have to mention that I'm not an EE :-)) Thanks for any help. Greetings Arnaud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 02:54:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA07036 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:54:12 -0800 Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.103]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA07030 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:53:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.103] claimed to be pimout4-int.prodigy.net Received: from sacnt01pdc01 (nas-108-151.oakland-t.navipath.net [64.20.108.151]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f18Arnd181478 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:53:50 -0500 From: "lance" To: Subject: RE: Transistor Ignition question Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:54:04 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 In-Reply-To: <3A82693A.65E8FCCA@casema.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Is the ignitor box made by Hitachi? I have a great deal of practical experience with replacing the drivers in a 1984 FJ1100 Yamaha to use coils with a lower primary resistance (needed more spark after compression boost). Way back in 1985, I used an RCA SK series device in a TO220 package with a 300v rating (you need it for back EMF). It was quite reliable, and this bike was my daily transportation, so it saw duty rain or shine both in California and overseas without issues. Also it appears that the IGBT is ideal in an ignition application and would be what I would use now. Lance P.S. I agree that Japanese motorcycles have the some of the worst electronic devices in the motoring world. Motorcycles also have incredibly short warranty periods compared to cars... -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Arnaud Westenberg Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:39 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Transistor Ignition question Hi, I have some questions about my motorcycle ignition. It's a transistor ignition from 1980 for four cylinders with pick up sensors and wasted spark setup (Suzuki gsx1100 '80). Problem is that one of the two transistors is broken and I don't have a clue what type it is. I've tried replacing it with a 'normal' transistor rated at high voltage, can't remember the voltage exactly but I believe it was around 400V. This worked for a while, although with a less powerfull spark at low rpm, but like expected it broke again. I guess it couldn't handle the high levels of voltage and current at the same time? I've read an application note about IGBTs and I think that such a transistor might work in the old ignition system. Reading about the IGBTs protection/operating area makes me quite confident that such a transistor wouldn't break in this application. Probably IGBT's are specifically designed for automotive use? I'd like to know if you think a IGBT would work, how to select one and where (what kind of store) I can order one without having to buy 10,000 of them. (I'm from the Netherlands). The only selection criteria I can think of is the basis lead voltage level at wich the transistor switches, but again I don't know this level either. I could try to get an indication of this voltage with an oscilloscope (PC card) provided this voltage isn't influenced by removing the transistor?? Could someone please talk me through this because a new ignition module costs around $400 (USD) so there's quite some budget available to find a suitable transistor? Guess I don't have to mention that I'm not an EE :-)) Thanks for any help. Greetings Arnaud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 04:09:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA07484 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:09:30 -0800 Received: from postal.grolen.com (postal.grolen.com [216.64.96.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA07479 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:09:14 -0800 Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:09:17 -0500 Received: from [216.64.100.13] by grolen.com id 392d1.wrk; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:09:26 EDT Message-ID: <3A828BD5.4C0CC21E@grolen.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:06:45 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating References: <3A81F654.FE7A7805@mtco.com> <3A8214F8.C184092F@grolen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yup, just now getting email delivered. Not yours, Tom Sharpe's reply though. Doesn't change the validity of the answer, though. ; ) Shannen 944Technologist wrote: > > Hi, > > This thread has been dead for months. It was active about the time the > system crashed. Are you both just now getting email delivered? Old mail hung > up due to the system crash maybe? > > FR Wilk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannen Durphey" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating > > > I use 2 sources. Summit racing, and Speedway Racing in Lincoln, Nebraska. > Plan to > > invest plenty of time in a coating job. > > > > Shannen > > > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > > > It's available from Summit!!! TWS > > > > > > 944Technologist wrote: > > > > > > > Now, I would like to find a DIY ceramic coating. Something that I can > coat > > > > the interior and exterior of an aluminum intake manifold and bake in a > > > > conventional "kitchen" oven. I have seen the material on the net but > no > > > > where to buy it. Not in small quantities anyway. Anyone know where it > can be > > > > bought in small quantities? > > > > > > > > FR Wilk > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 05:32:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA08185 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:32:29 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA08181 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:32:23 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.97] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 13:32:23 UT Received: by cleohshub02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1L4YB6J8>; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:31:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:31:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Notice in one of my other posts, I mentioned Motec (Motronic) as being one of the good ones, although too expensive for the typical enthusiast. -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:spectric@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:58 AM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re:EFI control Hi there With reference to non OEM ECU's. I have worked in the automotive electrical / electronic field for many years and I must say that in many cases the aftermarket ECU is far better in quality than the OEM module, take a look at Motec. Of the OEM's I would say Bosch are amongst the best all round and the Ford EEC the worst. Roy --- DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 > Volume 05 : Number 482 > > > > In this issue: > > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > Re: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > Re: EFI control > RE: EFI control > RE: EFI control > > See the end of the digest for information on > subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:59 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: EFI control > > I agree fully with this. The typical aftermarket > box just doesn't cut it. > Function maybe at the track, but not in the usual > daily environment. > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE@ghsp.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:13 PM > To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > Subject: RE: EFI control > > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I > do understand why the > requirements have evolved to the point where they're > at right now. If > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's > being operated from temps > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry > days, then I can see where > you don't need the level of engineering that an OEM > part provides. > > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you want > a module that will last > many years and work in all sessons, and all > conditions, then you really, > really do need the level of engineering that the > OEMs perform. Sorry, but > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I > want something that's > going to work within the stated operating > parameters. If the vendor claims > that the part is good for fair-weather use only and > shouldn't be used on a > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming that > I can bolt his XYZ ECU > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had > better comprehend the > environment and its effects on his module. > > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC > behavior? No? So what > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How > about thermal shock > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car > wash on a hot summer day. > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we > have huge potholes. > > I know that I'm going to come off as yet another > young engineer who wants to > make everything more complex just for the sake of > doing so. It's just that > I've seen some stuff that doesn't belong in an alarm > clock, much less in a > automotive environment where I'm trusting my > equipment (and maybe even my > safety) to a piece of junk that wasn't properly > engineered. > > End of rant. I don't have the right to tell anyone > what parts to run in > their car - all I can do is set standards for my own > stuff. > > Eric Bryant > mailto:bryante@ghsp.com > http://www.novagate.com/~bryante > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:52:11 -0500 > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > Subject: RE: EFI control > > So let's boil this down Bruce, what do you mean? > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:30 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > > Golly take about defensive attitudes, and reading > 10x more into a comment > then what was said, geesh, BTW, Noone looks for > reliability more then I. > NO ONE. > Later > Bruce > > From: "Eric Bryant" > > > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp@bright.net] > > > Subject: Re: EFI control > > > Ugh, well here we go again, from accel to GM > PCMs. OK, took > > > GM almost 20 > > > years to evolve this far. GM sells what about > 18 trillion > > > pcms a year?. > > > If the new stuff was still a ecm it probably > would be in the > > > same box as in > > > 82, just the newer stuff has that much more > heat, and > > > enironment to deal > > > with. Things get to where they are also over > engineered, > > > and KISS gets > > > completely lost. > > > Bruce > > > Well, I'm an automotive electrical engineer, and I > do understand why the > > requirements have evolved to the point where > they're at right now. If > > you're only driving your car on the strip and it's > being operated from > temps > > ranging from, oh, 40 F to 100 F, and only on dry > days, then I can see > where > > you don't need the level of engineering that an > OEM part provides. > > However, if your car is a daily driver, and you > want a module that will > last > > many years and work in all sessons, and all > conditions, then you really, > > really do need the level of engineering that the > OEMs perform. Sorry, but > > if I'm dropping $3000 on a aftermarket ECU, then I > want something that's > > going to work within the stated operating > parameters. If the vendor > claims > > that the part is good for fair-weather use only > and shouldn't be used on a > > daily driver, fine. If the vendor is claiming > that I can bolt his XYZ ECU > > into my car for use as a daily driver, then he had > better comprehend the > > environment and its effects on his module. > > So, is the average aftermarket part tested for EMC > behavior? No? So what > > happens when I drive past a cell phone tower? How > about thermal shock > > testing? No? Oops, better not go through the car > wash on a hot summer > day. > > Shock and vibration testing? Here in Michigan we > have huge potholes. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 06:18:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA08549 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:18:54 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA08545 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:18:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1PGCNKY5>; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:18:19 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:18:16 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] > Subject: RE: EFI control > > So, since this all started with the SDS system, I looked, and couldn't > find anything on their site about defined temperature or > humidity ranges. > Nothing on vibration or shock. Nothing about using it in a > daily driver. > Indeed, they specifically mention that you have to be careful about > using it in any street application. They're targeting the low-end > racing market. > Cool. So, as long as I'm using this ECU on the bench in my air-conditioned shop, then I should be OK. No temp or humidity ranges? I only run my cars on 68 F days with 20% humidity or less. Nothing on vibration or shock? That's ok - race cars don't vibrate, do they? I think I might have screwed up with one of my earlier comments, since I might have implied that relibility isn't a big deal for an "off-road" (read: race) application. > A quick check of Electromotive's site came up with the same result. > Add a second company to my list of ones to avoid. > If you took your current attitude and started an aftermarket > company to > produce EFI equipment, you'd quickly find yourself out of business. > Give these people a break. You seem to imply that I want 24K gold on all the connections, a chrome-plated CNC'd aluminum housing, and personal tech support by two Playmates. What I'm really looking for is an understanding of the automotive environment, evidence of proper design procedures, thorough validation of the product, and then some competent manufacturing. The first one is mandatory for anyone who wants to build and sell components for automotive use, and I think it's the easiest one to overlook. It's fatal, since you can't design anything without understanding the intended use. I don't think I need to state the importantance of the design process. Validation is easy to skip, since it's expensive and you can easily fall into the trap of overreliance on your design process. Manufacturing is a total bitch at low volumes, since you're looking at huge volumes (relatively) before you can even think about contracting a EMS provider. So, I hope it's clear that I understand the difficulties that the "little guys" face. I don't think it's any excuse, though. And as far as finding myself out of business - well, MoTeC seems to be doing rather well for themselves. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 06:46:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA08919 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:46:33 -0800 Received: from sykes.demon.co.uk (sykes.demon.co.uk [158.152.196.243]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA08914 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:46:25 -0800 Received: from richm (richm [192.168.2.9]) by sykes.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/v3.2) with SMTP id OAA06058 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:46:22 GMT Message-ID: <00b201c091de$214aeea0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> From: "Rich M" To: Subject: MAF maximum frequency Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:47:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Please can anyone give me any idea what frequency range would be expected (max and min) from frequency output type MAF's? Many thanks in anticipation Rich ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 07:00:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA09097 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:00:15 -0800 Received: from sykes.demon.co.uk (sykes.demon.co.uk [158.152.196.243]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA09084 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:59:54 -0800 Received: from richm (richm [192.168.2.9]) by sykes.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/v3.2) with SMTP id OAA06379 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:59:52 GMT Message-ID: <00b701c091e0$03b884e0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> From: "Rich M" To: Subject: Re: Transistor Ignition question Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:01:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A good general purpose ignition driver device is Motorola (ON Semiconductor) IGBT device MGP20N40CL. It is internally clamped to 400V max with gate overvoltage protection integrated. It is capable of switching 20Amps at 400V max (internally clamped) collector voltage. It can also be driven at the gate by 5V logic. Package style TO220. Available in UK and probably Europe from Farnell - www.farnell.com - part number 300-5732, price approx. 4.50 UKP Hope this helps Rich >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On >Behalf Of Arnaud Westenberg >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:39 AM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Transistor Ignition question > > >Hi, > >I have some questions about my motorcycle ignition. It's a transistor >ignition from 1980 for four cylinders with pick up sensors and wasted >spark setup (Suzuki gsx1100 '80). Problem is that one of the two >transistors is broken and I don't have a clue what type it is. > >I've tried replacing it with a 'normal' transistor rated at high >voltage, can't remember the voltage exactly but I believe it was around >400V. This worked for a while, although with a less powerfull spark at >low rpm, but like expected it broke again. I guess it couldn't handle >the high levels of voltage and current at the same time? > >I've read an application note about IGBTs and I think that such a >transistor might work in the old ignition system. Reading about the >IGBTs protection/operating area makes me quite confident that such a >transistor wouldn't break in this application. Probably IGBT's are >specifically designed for automotive use? > >I'd like to know if you think a IGBT would work, how to select one and >where (what kind of store) I can order one without having to buy 10,000 >of them. (I'm from the Netherlands). > >The only selection criteria I can think of is the basis lead voltage >level at wich the transistor switches, but again I don't know this level >either. I could try to get an indication of this voltage with an >oscilloscope (PC card) provided this voltage isn't influenced by >removing the transistor?? > >Could someone please talk me through this because a new ignition module >costs around $400 (USD) so there's quite some budget available to find a >suitable transistor? Guess I don't have to mention that I'm not an EE >:-)) > >Thanks for any help. > >Greetings Arnaud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 07:04:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA09149 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:04:46 -0800 Received: from mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com [24.92.68.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA09143 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:04:39 -0800 Received: from chick (m5hWs4n136.midsouth.rr.com [24.95.119.136]) by mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f18F3Lp10108 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:03:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <007801c091e0$78c2ad60$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> From: "Jurgen Hartwig" To: References: Subject: Re: EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org How many here have had an aftermarket ECU crap out? Who is willing to start a company, build a well-designed product, provide tech support, as well as provide a knowledge base for various auto installs? You will need to sell your product at low prices, since you're the new guy on the block. If you are willing to do so, please email me with pricing information. I can make a deposit immediately. I know the engineers have spoken. I am an engineer, too, but I also know an engineer does not sell products. No sale = No profit = No job = No ECU. I agree with the quality issues presented, but in my book, you keep on doing what you're doing until someone else comes along and kicks your ass doing it better. Then you quit and get another job. Until something better than my $650 Wolf 3D engine management system comes along, I stick with what I have. :( ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 09:17:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA10602 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:17:55 -0800 Received: from www.sgn.net (root@www.sgn.net [212.72.100.99]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA10598 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:17:46 -0800 Received: from avtomatika.com (114.dial.netsi.net [212.72.96.114]) by www.sgn.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA20517 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:17:38 +0100 Message-ID: <3A82D595.38CD89CE@avtomatika.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:21:25 +0100 From: Branko Badrljica Organization: AVTOMATIKA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Transistor Ignition question References: <00b701c091e0$03b884e0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org When replacing the bad part it all depends on transistor used. It would be verz helpful if he could include schematics of what was near the broken part. Then, one might be able to guess what was used originally. BTW: Does originnaly used transistor have some marking on it ? I have done one or two designs for our magazine and I have to say that modern FETs rule here. Only drawback is necessity to have 10V voltage levels just to drive them, BUT: - modern FET can live through overvoltage spikes, if energy amount is reasonable, even repetitively. So your 600V FET will simply clamp occasional spikes over 600V with no harm done, if energy of the spike would not meltdown the silicon ! - they can turn on and off VERY fast- which translates to very high induced voltages and very reliable spark. IIRC mine was able to switch in some 15 ns! -they have inherent antiparallel diode which prevents them from the oposite polarity inductive kick of the ignition coil... - modern FETs have very low resistance when fully on, so power dissipation is minimal. IGBTs are meant to reach higher current densities than simple FETs, but they are much slower and can suffer from bipolar illnesses. For simple ignition coils they are unneccesary, anyway. Regards, Branko. BTW: I'm thinking about doing whole thing again and writing an article about it. So, I would like to know, what are generally required properties of these things (cylinder numbers, internal calculation of advance angle etc. Is there any demand for these things nowadays ? Rich M wrote: > A good general purpose ignition driver device is Motorola (ON Semiconductor) > IGBT device MGP20N40CL. > It is internally clamped to 400V max with gate overvoltage protection > integrated. It is capable of switching 20Amps at 400V max (internally > clamped) collector voltage. It can also be driven at the gate by 5V logic. > Package style TO220. > Available in UK and probably Europe from Farnell - www.farnell.com - part > number 300-5732, price approx. 4.50 UKP > Hope this helps > > Rich > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > >Behalf Of Arnaud Westenberg > >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:39 AM > >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >Subject: Transistor Ignition question > > > > > >Hi, > > > >I have some questions about my motorcycle ignition. It's a transistor > >ignition from 1980 for four cylinders with pick up sensors and wasted > >spark setup (Suzuki gsx1100 '80). Problem is that one of the two > >transistors is broken and I don't have a clue what type it is. > > > >I've tried replacing it with a 'normal' transistor rated at high > >voltage, can't remember the voltage exactly but I believe it was around > >400V. This worked for a while, although with a less powerfull spark at > >low rpm, but like expected it broke again. I guess it couldn't handle > >the high levels of voltage and current at the same time? > > > >I've read an application note about IGBTs and I think that such a > >transistor might work in the old ignition system. Reading about the > >IGBTs protection/operating area makes me quite confident that such a > >transistor wouldn't break in this application. Probably IGBT's are > >specifically designed for automotive use? > > > >I'd like to know if you think a IGBT would work, how to select one and > >where (what kind of store) I can order one without having to buy 10,000 > >of them. (I'm from the Netherlands). > > > >The only selection criteria I can think of is the basis lead voltage > >level at wich the transistor switches, but again I don't know this level > >either. I could try to get an indication of this voltage with an > >oscilloscope (PC card) provided this voltage isn't influenced by > >removing the transistor?? > > > >Could someone please talk me through this because a new ignition module > >costs around $400 (USD) so there's quite some budget available to find a > >suitable transistor? Guess I don't have to mention that I'm not an EE > >:-)) > > > >Thanks for any help. > > > >Greetings Arnaud > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 10:42:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA11189 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:42:37 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA11185 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14] claimed to be localhost.localdomain Received: from casema.net (IDENT:arnaud@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02189 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:22:44 +0100 Message-ID: <3A82E3F3.520A9E92@casema.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:22:43 +0100 From: Arnaud Westenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Transistor Ignition question References: <00b701c091e0$03b884e0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Rich M wrote: > > A good general purpose ignition driver device is Motorola (ON Semiconductor) > IGBT device MGP20N40CL. > It is internally clamped to 400V max with gate overvoltage protection > integrated. It is capable of switching 20Amps at 400V max (internally > clamped) collector voltage. It can also be driven at the gate by 5V logic. > Package style TO220. > Available in UK and probably Europe from Farnell - www.farnell.com - part > number 300-5732, price approx. 4.50 UKP ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 10:53:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA11331 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:14 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA11326 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host IDENT:root@16dyn14.com21.casema.net [213.17.86.14] claimed to be localhost.localdomain Received: from casema.net (IDENT:arnaud@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02213 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:33:22 +0100 Message-ID: <3A82E672.FDDFC295@casema.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:33:22 +0100 From: Arnaud Westenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Transistor Ignition question References: <00b701c091e0$03b884e0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Rich M wrote: > > A good general purpose ignition driver device is Motorola (ON Semiconductor) > IGBT device MGP20N40CL. > It is internally clamped to 400V max with gate overvoltage protection > integrated. It is capable of switching 20Amps at 400V max (internally > clamped) collector voltage. It can also be driven at the gate by 5V logic. > Package style TO220. > Available in UK and probably Europe from Farnell - www.farnell.com - part > number 300-5732, price approx. 4.50 UKP OK, WHO PRESSED THAT SEND BUTTON? Sorry.... Thanks Rich, I'll try that one and see how it works. Thanks again. Arnaud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 10:57:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA11424 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:57:33 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA11419 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:57:26 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04197 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Eric Bryant wrote: > What I'm really looking for is an understanding of the automotive > environment, evidence of proper design procedures, thorough validation of > the product, and then some competent manufacturing. The first one is > mandatory for anyone who wants to build and sell components for automotive > use, and I think it's the easiest one to overlook. It's fatal, since you > can't design anything without understanding the intended use. I don't think > I need to state the importantance of the design process. Validation is easy > to skip, since it's expensive and you can easily fall into the trap of > overreliance on your design process. Manufacturing is a total bitch at low > volumes, since you're looking at huge volumes (relatively) before you can > even think about contracting a EMS provider. > > So, I hope it's clear that I understand the difficulties that the "little > guys" face. I don't think it's any excuse, though. And as far as finding > myself out of business - well, MoTeC seems to be doing rather well for > themselves. MoTec also charges 3-4x what SDS, Electromotive, Wolf, Haltec, etc. charge. Their market is for high-end systems, like well-funded racing teams or CEOs who like to get their hands dirty. I don't know too many individuals who are willing or able to pay $4000 for an ECU, then another $1000-2000 for harnesses, sensors, etc. Obviously, since MoTec and Pi Systems are solvent, there's a sufficient market for them at the high end. They're the Ferrari of the ECU market. I don't own a Ferrari. Do you? My main point is I think you're giving the low-end manufacturers short shrift. They very well understand the harsh environment they're working in. Not only do they have to worry about EMI, but lawyers, angry customers, regulators, and the tax man. You're only concerning yourself with the first item on that list. Working for a large company, you have that luxury. They have to worry about the whole list. They have to produce a product that is "good enough" or they won't sell. Anything better than good enough costs extra money, and since they can't charge any more for their products than their competitors, they have to eat those costs. Money out of their pockets. I happen to know personally the proprietor of the company that sells the Wolf system. It sells for about $800US. He's not making a lot of money. He's perfectly happy doing this, since it's what he loves, and he's never had any money (former academic). His stuff works well enough that he has a number of satisfied customers, many of whom drive cars using his products across the Australian deserts (Wolf is in Melbourne). There are others who use his products in wet New England. Seems to be good enough for them, in drastically different environments, in the real world. So, really, even though you don't realize it, you really are asking for 24K gold-plated connectors, and tech support by the Playmate of the Month, or, rather, for things that end up being about as useful in the real world. I think you're falling into the common trap of deciding that only the very best is good enough. There's nothing particularly wrong with that attitude. That's the attitude they take at Rolls-Royce, and Ferrari, and in most aerospace applications. When you have the money to spend, spend it on quality. Absolutely the right thing to do. But there is a level of quality beyond which the cost exceeds the benefit. The high-end guys, like Motec, are higher up on that curve. The low-end guys, like Wolf, live farther down the hill. You pays your money... james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 11:43:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA11960 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:43:42 -0800 Received: from csun.edu (krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA11956 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:43:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51] claimed to be csun.edu Received: from csun.edu (dhcp2-205.ecs.csun.edu [130.166.2.205]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.2)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA696341 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:43:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A82F462.88019CAF@csun.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:32:50 -0800 From: Stewart Prince X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: vr vs hall References: <007801c091e0$78c2ad60$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering signal on our home build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering either a hall effect or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and we're very space limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, and perhaps part #s? S. prince ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 11:47:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA11974 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:47:03 -0800 Received: from csun.edu (krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA11970 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:46:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51] claimed to be csun.edu Received: from csun.edu (dhcp2-205.ecs.csun.edu [130.166.2.205]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.2)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA697352 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:46:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A82F52E.EEA37ECD@csun.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:36:14 -0800 From: Stewart Prince X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Transistor Ignition question References: <00b701c091e0$03b884e0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> <3A82D595.38CD89CE@avtomatika.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If you just want a simple fet with no current limiting, and you want 5 volt control, consider the international rectifier logic level hexfets. Their web site has a pretty neat setup for selecting automotive fets and they're pretty good about samples. S. Prince Branko Badrljica wrote: > When replacing the bad part it all depends on transistor used. > It would be verz helpful if he could include schematics of what was near the > broken part. > Then, one might be able to guess what was used originally. BTW: Does originnaly > used transistor have > some marking on it ? > > I have done one or two designs for our magazine and I have to say that modern > FETs rule here. > Only drawback is necessity to have 10V voltage levels just to drive them, BUT: > > - modern FET can live through overvoltage spikes, if energy amount is > reasonable, even repetitively. > So your 600V FET will simply clamp occasional spikes over 600V with no harm > done, if energy of the spike > would not meltdown the silicon ! > - they can turn on and off VERY fast- which translates to very high induced > voltages and > very reliable spark. IIRC mine was able to switch in some 15 ns! > -they have inherent antiparallel diode which prevents them from the oposite > polarity inductive kick of the ignition coil... > - modern FETs have very low resistance when fully on, so power dissipation is > minimal. > > IGBTs are meant to reach higher current densities than simple FETs, but they are > much slower > and can suffer from bipolar illnesses. For simple ignition coils they are > unneccesary, anyway. > > Regards, > > Branko. > > BTW: I'm thinking about doing whole thing again and writing an article about it. > > So, I would like to know, what are generally required properties of these things > (cylinder numbers, > internal calculation of advance angle etc. > Is there any demand for these things nowadays ? > > Rich M wrote: > > > A good general purpose ignition driver device is Motorola (ON Semiconductor) > > IGBT device MGP20N40CL. > > It is internally clamped to 400V max with gate overvoltage protection > > integrated. It is capable of switching 20Amps at 400V max (internally > > clamped) collector voltage. It can also be driven at the gate by 5V logic. > > Package style TO220. > > Available in UK and probably Europe from Farnell - www.farnell.com - part > > number 300-5732, price approx. 4.50 UKP > > Hope this helps > > > > Rich > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > > >Behalf Of Arnaud Westenberg > > >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:39 AM > > >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > >Subject: Transistor Ignition question > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > >I have some questions about my motorcycle ignition. It's a transistor > > >ignition from 1980 for four cylinders with pick up sensors and wasted > > >spark setup (Suzuki gsx1100 '80). Problem is that one of the two > > >transistors is broken and I don't have a clue what type it is. > > > > > >I've tried replacing it with a 'normal' transistor rated at high > > >voltage, can't remember the voltage exactly but I believe it was around > > >400V. This worked for a while, although with a less powerfull spark at > > >low rpm, but like expected it broke again. I guess it couldn't handle > > >the high levels of voltage and current at the same time? > > > > > >I've read an application note about IGBTs and I think that such a > > >transistor might work in the old ignition system. Reading about the > > >IGBTs protection/operating area makes me quite confident that such a > > >transistor wouldn't break in this application. Probably IGBT's are > > >specifically designed for automotive use? > > > > > >I'd like to know if you think a IGBT would work, how to select one and > > >where (what kind of store) I can order one without having to buy 10,000 > > >of them. (I'm from the Netherlands). > > > > > >The only selection criteria I can think of is the basis lead voltage > > >level at wich the transistor switches, but again I don't know this level > > >either. I could try to get an indication of this voltage with an > > >oscilloscope (PC card) provided this voltage isn't influenced by > > >removing the transistor?? > > > > > >Could someone please talk me through this because a new ignition module > > >costs around $400 (USD) so there's quite some budget available to find a > > >suitable transistor? Guess I don't have to mention that I'm not an EE > > >:-)) > > > > > >Thanks for any help. > > > > > >Greetings Arnaud > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- STEWART PRINCE PROFESSOR, MECHANICAL ENGINEERING CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, NORTHRIDGE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 13:40:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA12990 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:40:19 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA12984 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:40:11 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.96] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 21:40:11 UT Received: by cleohshub01.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1RRSA916>; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:39:31 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:39:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Maybe the low end manufacturers do understand the environment, and just choose not to build to that spec. I don't know. What I do know is that it's not good enough around here. I know it can be done, since I participated in such an effort. I disagree that you can't charge more than your competitors, you can if you provide a better product. Motec does this. Perhaps this argument should be that there's no nice middle ground of systems, which have complete weatherproofing, high quality harnesses, etc. 24K gold plating is not necessary when you weatherproof properly. I am not looking for a ferrari of controllers, just a middle-road mercedes. Please define 'real world'. Do you mean that you don't really need EMI testing? You don't really need corrosion resistance? Aftermarket EFI is only for racers and weekend hobby cars? Bull puckey. There is a market for these features. No one seems to be in it. If you come back and say Motec, I say - I don't need Milspec connectors and armored harnesses. I don't need a box you can drop off the eiffel tower and have it survive. I need an OEM quality box that has OEM quality connections, that I can program with a laptop on DOS/UNIX software, and buy for ~$1500 or so, out the door. And I can't comment on the Wolf system, I've never seen or heard of it. The argument started on the quality of the SDS system's wiring. That was my beef, it's not good enough for it to cost $1000. And I disagree with someones' comment that engineering types don't have a grip on marketing/sales. You can teach an engineer to market and sell product, you cannot teach a salesman to engineer something, unless he's already smart enough to get an engineering degree on his own. -----Original Message----- From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:54 PM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: EFI control MoTec also charges 3-4x what SDS, Electromotive, Wolf, Haltec, etc. charge. Their market is for high-end systems, like well-funded racing teams or CEOs who like to get their hands dirty. I don't know too many individuals who are willing or able to pay $4000 for an ECU, then another $1000-2000 for harnesses, sensors, etc. Obviously, since MoTec and Pi Systems are solvent, there's a sufficient market for them at the high end. They're the Ferrari of the ECU market. I don't own a Ferrari. Do you? My main point is I think you're giving the low-end manufacturers short shrift. They very well understand the harsh environment they're working in. Not only do they have to worry about EMI, but lawyers, angry customers, regulators, and the tax man. You're only concerning yourself with the first item on that list. Working for a large company, you have that luxury. They have to worry about the whole list. They have to produce a product that is "good enough" or they won't sell. Anything better than good enough costs extra money, and since they can't charge any more for their products than their competitors, they have to eat those costs. Money out of their pockets. I happen to know personally the proprietor of the company that sells the Wolf system. It sells for about $800US. He's not making a lot of money. He's perfectly happy doing this, since it's what he loves, and he's never had any money (former academic). His stuff works well enough that he has a number of satisfied customers, many of whom drive cars using his products across the Australian deserts (Wolf is in Melbourne). There are others who use his products in wet New England. Seems to be good enough for them, in drastically different environments, in the real world. So, really, even though you don't realize it, you really are asking for 24K gold-plated connectors, and tech support by the Playmate of the Month, or, rather, for things that end up being about as useful in the real world. I think you're falling into the common trap of deciding that only the very best is good enough. There's nothing particularly wrong with that attitude. That's the attitude they take at Rolls-Royce, and Ferrari, and in most aerospace applications. When you have the money to spend, spend it on quality. Absolutely the right thing to do. But there is a level of quality beyond which the cost exceeds the benefit. The high-end guys, like Motec, are higher up on that curve. The low-end guys, like Wolf, live farther down the hill. You pays your money... james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 14:06:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13153 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:06:26 -0800 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA13149 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:06:16 -0800 Received: from [62.7.39.228] (helo=home) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14QzCX-00020Y-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:06:05 +0000 From: "Will Reeve" To: Subject: GM MAP pinouts? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:06:20 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <3A82F52E.EEA37ECD@csun.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi all, I have acquired a GM MAP sensor for some diy manifold pressure measurements, it's a three pin device with the numbers 3372, S97101 on it. Most web pages say the pinouts are 5v, Signal, 0v. There is an identifying polarisation lug next to one of the end pins, does anyone know if this pin is 5v or 0v? Or are there any measurements I can make to distinguish the 0v and 5v pins? Will ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 14:11:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13212 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:11:25 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA13205 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:11:17 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.45]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010208221105.FNPZ10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:11:05 -0500 Message-ID: <011901c0921c$16216200$2d0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <007801c091e0$78c2ad60$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> <3A82F462.88019CAF@csun.edu> Subject: Re: vr vs hall Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:11:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Without a whole lot more engine info., kinda hard to mention particular bits. The reluctor types are an A/C generator so the have some built in advance that might be a problem (wayy too much advance at high rpm). Halls on the other hand are fixed. well, maybe a lil movement, but basically where every the shutter is, that's the signal point Bruce > We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering signal on our home > build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering either a hall effect > or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and we're very space > limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, and perhaps part #s? > S. prince ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 14:32:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13443 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:32:29 -0800 Received: from mail.yifansoft.com (qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id OAA13439 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:32:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50] claimed to be mail.yifansoft.com Received: (qmail 22046 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 22:31:49 -0000 Received: from 1cust65.tnt1.blacksburg.va.da.uu.net (HELO TheRebel) (63.20.84.65) by host5.yifansoft.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 22:31:49 -0000 From: "James Ballenger" To: Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:31:46 -0500 Message-ID: <005b01c0921e$fb15d4c0$ca00a8c0@Vtech> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A lot of teams in Formula SAE are putting this system through pretty extreme racing conditions and a lot of time on the equipment and have had great results. Hopefully they and electromotive will be updating their harness in the near future (I hear they will). The Haltech harness is a fairly nice modular piece that just pops on and off. When it all boils down in racing, having a strong, reliable and modular connector harness is extremely important and can beat products with a better package in other areas. James Ballenger >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On >Behalf Of Shirley, Mark R >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:17 AM >To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' >Subject: RE: EFI control > > >The SDS stuff has such a cheesy, homemade look to it, and it >costs more than >an Accel system! > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:280zx@home.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:19 AM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: EFI control > > >if you decide on the SDS system www.sdsefi.com or similar a >friend is doing >a group buy right now at 20% off, they're literally sending >money already >to him and hope to place all orders (he's doing all the >legwork) by next >wednesday if he has enough dough in by then for them to grant 20% > >if you've done your homework and know what you want email >mailto:mike@fonebooth.com >who's doing the groupbuy > >for any potential canadian buyers you can have additional tax >savings on >top of that..... > >no affiliation with sds, just keeping the word out as I'm not >sure if they >have all the buyers they need for 20%, they were short one >last I heard >with 3 other 'expected' to sign up > > > >At 05:45 PM 2/6/01 , keith hansen wrote: > > >>I'm building a Fiberglass dune-buggy with a 2.0l ford motor (pinto) >> >>I am looking for an inexpensive way to control fuel >injectors, either by >>adapting a factory computer, building my own computer "brain" or >>purchasing an aftermarket unit. >> >>Does anyone have a workable schematic for building my own EFI >controller? >> >>Or, does anyone know of an aftermarket unit I can get my hands on? >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- >- >>To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >>in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada R200 4.11's available > >Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most. > >mailto:280zx@home.com ICQ # 11549358 >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jp >g where a >Z belongs >--------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" >(without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >--------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" >(without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 14:46:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13655 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:46:35 -0800 Received: from firewall.ceco.com (firewall-user@firewall.ceco.com [198.29.253.130]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id OAA13645 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:46:25 -0800 From: don.broadus@exeloncorp.com Received: by firewall.ceco.com; id QAA14049; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:46:22 -0600 Received: from cccntmswp02.ceco.com(130.197.113.222) by firewall.ceco.com via smap (V4.2) id xma013838; Thu, 8 Feb 01 16:46:07 -0600 Received: from cccntcon52.exeloncorp.com (unverified) by cccntmswp02.ceco.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:45:25 -0600 Received: by cccntcon52.ceco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1F6BNC2L>; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:45:25 -0600 Message-ID: <6D07A7DEF8E8D21182700080D8701070047F0FC8@cccntxch51.ceco.com> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: vr vs hall Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:45:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ed Lansinger had a similar problem with his teams SAE racer. He solved the problem by routing the mag pickup lines through inline coaxial capacitors soldered to the ECM case. The article appeared in 3 installments in circuit cellar magazine issue #62/63/64 Sept/Oct/Nov This is the only Email I have for Ed is lansie@rpi.edu. Take Care Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@bright.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 4:11 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: vr vs hall > > > Without a whole lot more engine info., kinda hard to mention particular > bits. > > The reluctor types are an A/C generator so the have some built in advance > that might be a problem (wayy too much advance at high rpm). > Halls on the other hand are fixed. well, maybe a lil movement, but > basically where every the shutter is, that's the signal point > Bruce > > > > > > We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering signal on > our > home > > build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering either a hall > effect > > or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and we're very > space > > limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, and perhaps > part #s? > > S. prince > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ********************************************************************************* This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corp. proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corp. family of Companies. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. Thank You. ********************************************************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 14:57:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:57:36 -0800 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA13790 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:57:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05600 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:53:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Shirley, Mark R wrote: > And I can't comment on the Wolf system, I've never seen or heard of it. > The argument started on the quality of the SDS system's wiring. That was my > beef, it's not good enough for it to cost $1000. Fine. Don't buy it. Lots of people do and are perfectly happy with it. If you're not, then buy something else, or build something else. Ragging on SDS for building a product that fills a market niche at a price that people are perfectly willing to pay is unwarranted. If you're so unhappy about it, then I invite you to compete with them, so you can discover just how badly they're ripping everyone off with their overpriced, underengineered junk (that's sarcasm, btw). As I said before, please build an ECU that meets the quality standards of a big OEM and sell it for the same price as SDS. Really. You'll bankrupt yourself, but a few lucky people will get a nice new ECU cheap at your expense before you run out of money. > And I disagree with someones' comment that engineering types don't have a > grip on marketing/sales. You can teach an engineer to market and sell > product, you cannot teach a salesman to engineer something, unless he's > already smart enough to get an engineering degree on his own. That was my comment. I'm also an engineer, but I'm not so arrogant as to think that all people involved in the marketing and sales sides are idiots. There are plenty of small business run by an engineer that's also serving as salesman, accountant, support, etc. There are plenty of salesmen out there with engineering degrees. There are plenty of engineers with MBAs. There are also plenty of engineers (esp. at big engineering companies) who haven't a clue about how to survive as a small businessman. james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 15:03:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA13865 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:03:56 -0800 Received: from mail.yifansoft.com (qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id PAA13861 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:03:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50] claimed to be mail.yifansoft.com Received: (qmail 25557 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 23:03:25 -0000 Received: from 1cust65.tnt1.blacksburg.va.da.uu.net (HELO TheRebel) (63.20.84.65) by host5.yifansoft.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 23:03:25 -0000 From: "James Ballenger" To: Subject: RE: vr vs hall Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: <005c01c09223$64dbf020$ca00a8c0@Vtech> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <3A82F462.88019CAF@csun.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org How are you trying to get your signal? You could use the stock Honda setup (assuming your CBR F 600 is similar to the F2,F3,F4 setups I have worked with) and take it's reluctor signal. You could also make your own mag sensor timing wheel or buy on on the market... I have several designs and wheels that work up to 14,100 sitting in my shop. The one that has worked the best for our team has been a 2 channel hall effect sensor that works with a timing wheel with two magnets embedded 180 degrees apart from eachother. James Ballenger vtjballeng@yifan.net PS - if you want more detail as to the design criteria and manufacturing of parts, etc please email me off the list. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On >Behalf Of Stewart Prince >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:33 PM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: vr vs hall > > >We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering >signal on our home >build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering >either a hall effect >or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and >we're very space >limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, >and perhaps part #s? > >S. prince > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" >(without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 15:07:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA13929 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:07:14 -0800 Received: from ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.196]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA13924 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:07:06 -0800 Received: from ufl.edu (piston.hogtown.ufl.edu [128.227.80.199]) by ee1.hogtown.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:07:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3A832694.5D534D3D@ufl.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:07:00 -0500 From: Jeff Webb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: GM MAP pinouts? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Will, I don't know about your particular model, but the ones I have are labeled as A, B, and C. Look at: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/component_info/sensors.html This states that Pin A -- Ground Pin B -- Sensor output Pin C -- +5 volts Jeff Webb Will Reeve wrote: > > Hi all, > I have acquired a GM MAP sensor for some diy manifold pressure measurements, > it's a three pin device with the numbers 3372, S97101 on it. Most web pages > say the pinouts are 5v, Signal, 0v. There is an identifying polarisation lug > next to one of the end pins, does anyone know if this pin is 5v or 0v? Or > are there any measurements I can make to distinguish the 0v and 5v pins? > > Will > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 16:16:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA14621 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:16:43 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA14617 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:16:36 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.45]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010209001635.GJVR10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:16:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01bc01c0922d$9e97b560$2d0ac9d8@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <00b201c091de$214aeea0$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> Subject: Re: MAF maximum frequency Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:16:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The early Bosch ones that gm used were 30-130 Hz, from what I've read. There was a posting abou the later ones, that I seem to have lost, but I think the lat AL housing ones are 1-12K Hz. Bruce > Please can anyone give me any idea what frequency range would be expected > (max and min) from frequency output type MAF's? > > Many thanks in anticipation > > Rich > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 17:14:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA15202 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:14:55 -0800 Received: from cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA15198 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:14:38 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer ([63.28.15.160]) by cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:12:43 -0800 Message-ID: <02ab01c09234$35709820$0f101c3f@oemcomputer> From: "alexpeper" To: References: <200102081948.LAA11986@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re:EFI control Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:39:56 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2001 01:12:47.0176 (UTC) FILETIME=[69C42C80:01C09235] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yes, automotive quality can vary, 80% of auto engineering is cost evaluation , and the rest is internal politics. In high volume, if does not break at designed lifespan make it cheaper. Worked for large OEM fuel system supplier, in late 70's and in federal emission test and durability, were most results on borderline or over. Most likely Chryslers in the engineering phase today will not be good when on maket. Alex > - -----Original Message----- > From: Roy [mailto:spectric@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:58 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re:EFI control > > > Hi there > > With reference to non OEM ECU's. I have worked in the > automotive electrical / electronic field for many > years and I must say that in many cases the > aftermarket ECU is far better in quality than the OEM > module, take a look at Motec. Of the OEM's I would > say Bosch are amongst the best all round and the Ford > EEC the worst. > > Roy > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 17:15:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA15215 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:15:19 -0800 Received: from cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA15208 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:15:02 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer ([63.28.15.160]) by cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:13:00 -0800 Message-ID: <02ac01c09234$3f8e02c0$0f101c3f@oemcomputer> From: "alexpeper" To: Subject: RE: vr vs hall Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:03:47 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2001 01:13:05.0426 (UTC) FILETIME=[74A4E720:01C09235] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org New ones seem to come out everyday. try www.melexix.com MLX90217 or MLX90215VA programmable also www.alegromicro.com Alex > Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:32:50 -0800 > From: Stewart Prince > Subject: vr vs hall > > We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering signal on our home > build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering either a hall effect > or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and we're very space > limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, and perhaps part #s? > > S. prince ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 17:18:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA15248 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:18:46 -0800 Received: from rachael.letnet.net ([204.158.214.22]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA15242 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:18:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [204.158.214.22] claimed to be rachael.letnet.net Received: from mailhost.letu.edu ([204.158.214.15]) by rachael.letnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:16:59 -0600 Received: from RACHAEL/SpoolDir by mailhost.letu.edu (Mercury 1.48); 8 Feb 01 19:18:25 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by RACHAEL (Mercury 1.48); 8 Feb 01 19:18:07 -0500 Received: from retard (204.158.212.214) by mailhost.letu.edu (Mercury 1.48); 8 Feb 01 19:18:02 -0500 Message-ID: <008b01c09237$52c6f100$d6d49ecc@retard> From: "Steve Ruse" To: Subject: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:26:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2001 01:16:59.0640 (UTC) FILETIME=[003F1F80:01C09236] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm trying to decide what type of crank angle sensor and RPM sensor I want to use with our EFI system for a 600cc Honda. Probably we will be using a PC based control system, if not it will be a dedicated 68*** micro. We had originally thrown around the idea of using an optispark style optical sensor, but I think there must be something easier than that. Has anybody ever tried using an optical encoder? I don't know much about them at all, but from looking at the spec sheets it seems like they would work, and I wouldn't have to try to cut out a disk and make it work with a sensor. Anybody know of a good source or where I could find some datasheets? Hall effect sensors seem to be very popular. All you need is a toothed wheel and a sensor, right? What does the output signal look like? What do you guys think would be the most reliable and accurate sensor? Ease of implementation is also a factor, not the biggest, but it is a factor. Thanks for the help! Steve Ruse ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 19:01:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA16232 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:01:58 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f59.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.59]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA16227 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:01:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f59.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.59] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:01:21 -0800 Received: from 207.251.212.42 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:01:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.251.212.42] From: "Steve Leonard" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: NTK Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:01:21 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2001 03:01:21.0577 (UTC) FILETIME=[94A6E190:01C09244] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have an EMS Dual Sport I fuel injection system. It has the "wide band lambda" sensor option. It came with a Bosch LSM-11 sensor. Unfortunately I killed it with some non-O2 sensor safe RTV. :( The "tech" guy at EMS said that he has simply replaced the Bosch unit with a NTK wide band sensor (same type as the DIY EFI unit- 5 wire). Anybody see any reason this wouldn't work? On another note, these NTK sensors can still be purchased rather cheap ($125US) The Bosch LSM-11 is $390. Go to your local NAPA store, the part is an Echlin OS791 ("O" as in OH sh*t). It is the real McCoy, NTK is stamped on it. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 21:04:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA16905 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:04:25 -0800 Received: from s2rack4.2.sbbs.se (mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA16901 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:04:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailbox.sbbs2.net [212.112.0.4] claimed to be s2rack4.2.sbbs.se Received: from jurg2kpro (z15-4-167.sbbs2.net [212.112.4.167]) by s2rack4.2.sbbs.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CKY0BP50; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:04:00 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: NTK Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:04:58 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, You must have spoken to the tech guys hamster, the sensor does not have much in common with the NTK UEGO sensor. I can probably set you up with a LSM 11 sensor that is used for a short time in a big engine lab, It will be compared to other reference sensors just before I ship it to you. $200 is the price. Send a mail to mailto:jurg@pp.sbbs.se to discuss payment and shipping if you are interested. Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden. Steve Leonard wrote: > I have an EMS Dual Sport I fuel injection system. It has the "wide band > lambda" sensor option. It came with a Bosch LSM-11 sensor. > Unfortunately I > killed it with some non-O2 sensor safe RTV. :( > The "tech" guy at EMS said that he has simply replaced the > Bosch unit with > a NTK wide band sensor (same type as the DIY EFI unit- 5 wire). > Anybody see any reason this wouldn't work? > > On another note, these NTK sensors can still be purchased rather cheap > ($125US) The Bosch LSM-11 is $390. Go to your local NAPA store, > the part is > an Echlin OS791 ("O" as in OH sh*t). It is the real McCoy, NTK > is stamped > on it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 21:09:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA16952 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:09:21 -0800 Received: from smtp.mtco.com (ns.mtco.com [207.179.200.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id VAA16948 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:09:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ns.mtco.com [207.179.200.2] claimed to be smtp.mtco.com Received: (qmail 22190 invoked by alias); 9 Feb 2001 04:42:25 -0000 Received: from tnt13-1-216.mtco.com (HELO mtco.com) (207.179.206.216) by ns.mtco.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 04:42:25 -0000 Message-ID: <3A83740A.415094E2@mtco.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:37:31 -0600 From: Tom Sharpe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating References: <3A81F654.FE7A7805@mtco.com> <3A8214F8.C184092F@grolen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Just catching up slowly tws 944Technologist wrote: > Hi, > > This thread has been dead for months. It was active about the time the > system crashed. Are you both just now getting email delivered? Old mail hung > up due to the system crash maybe? > > FR Wilk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannen Durphey" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: DIY ceramic coating > > > I use 2 sources. Summit racing, and Speedway Racing in Lincoln, Nebraska. > Plan to > > invest plenty of time in a coating job. > > > > Shannen > > > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > > > It's available from Summit!!! TWS > > > > > > 944Technologist wrote: > > > > > > > Now, I would like to find a DIY ceramic coating. Something that I can > coat > > > > the interior and exterior of an aluminum intake manifold and bake in a > > > > conventional "kitchen" oven. I have seen the material on the net but > no > > > > where to buy it. Not in small quantities anyway. Anyone know where it > can be > > > > bought in small quantities? > > > > > > > > FR Wilk > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 22:13:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA17345 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:13:29 -0800 Received: from deborah.paradise.net.nz (deborah.paradise.net.nz [203.96.152.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA17341 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:13:22 -0800 Received: from workstation (203-79-69-49.apx0.paradise.net.nz [203.79.69.49]) by deborah.paradise.net.nz (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f196DFQ24290 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:13:16 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <007b01c0925f$b282d140$01010080@workstation> From: "Tony Bryant" To: Subject: Re: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:15:26 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >We had originally thrown around the idea of using an optispark style optical >sensor, but I think there must be something easier than that. Has anybody >ever tried using an optical encoder? I don't know much about them at all, >but from looking at the spec sheets it seems like they would work, and I >wouldn't have to try to cut out a disk and make it work with a sensor. >Anybody know of a good source or where I could find some datasheets? > I used a piece of PCB material with 59 holes drilled in it bolted to the crank pulley. I used a optical slot sensor from a old mouse. Worked great, but it made me nervous so I changed to a hall effect sensor. >Hall effect sensors seem to be very popular. All you need is a toothed wheel >and a sensor, right? What does the output signal look like? Order a hall effect gear tooth sensor from digi-key. Make sure you get a gear tooth sensor, not just a normal sensor. Allegro make a nice one that outputs TTL with no bounce or other crap. I just expoxied it, a tiny rare earth magnet, and a piece of steel (to act as a pole piece) in a piece of copper tube. Pretty robust solution. Just to be sure though I feed the result through an RC filter and an 74HC14 to square it up again. I did mill up a fancy 59 tooth wheel for it, but I could have easily just cut a few slots in the periphery of the crank pully. Digikey also sell complete hall effect sensor from Cherry, ready to bolt up. > >What do you guys think would be the most reliable and accurate sensor? Ease >of implementation is also a factor, not the biggest, but it is a factor. Don't bother with inductive at this stage, the lack of DC response will make the engine a bitch to start, if you don't get the signal processing right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 22:42:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA17626 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:42:32 -0800 Received: from mail.yifansoft.com (qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA17622 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:42:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50] claimed to be mail.yifansoft.com Received: (qmail 22069 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2001 06:41:56 -0000 Received: from 1cust105.tnt2.blacksburg.va.da.uu.net (HELO TheRebel) (63.14.245.105) by host5.yifansoft.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 06:41:56 -0000 From: "James Ballenger" To: Subject: RE: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:42:12 -0500 Message-ID: <008401c09263$6f85c830$ca00a8c0@Vtech> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <008b01c09237$52c6f100$d6d49ecc@retard> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org You could use the stock Honda setup (assuming your CBR F 600 is similar to the F2,F3,F4 setups I have worked with) and take it's reluctor signal. You could also make your own mag sensor timing wheel or buy one on the market... I have several designs and wheels that work up to 14,100 sitting in my shop. The one that has worked the best for our team has been a 2 channel hall effect sensor that works with a timing wheel with two magnets embedded 180 degrees apart from eachother in an aluminum disk. The signal from the hall effect is a straight digital signal vs the sinusoidal signal from a mag sensor. These are very easy to make and I have existing designs for fitting the wheels on F3/F4 engines. James Ballenger vtjballeng@yifan.net PS - if you want more design detail or specifics please email me off the listserv >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On >Behalf Of Steve Ruse >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:26 PM >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor > > >I'm trying to decide what type of crank angle sensor and RPM >sensor I want >to use with our EFI system for a 600cc Honda. Probably we will >be using a PC >based control system, if not it will be a dedicated 68*** micro. > >We had originally thrown around the idea of using an optispark >style optical >sensor, but I think there must be something easier than that. >Has anybody >ever tried using an optical encoder? I don't know much about >them at all, >but from looking at the spec sheets it seems like they would >work, and I >wouldn't have to try to cut out a disk and make it work with a sensor. >Anybody know of a good source or where I could find some datasheets? > >Hall effect sensors seem to be very popular. All you need is a >toothed wheel >and a sensor, right? What does the output signal look like? > >What do you guys think would be the most reliable and accurate >sensor? Ease >of implementation is also a factor, not the biggest, but it is >a factor. > >Thanks for the help! >Steve Ruse > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" >(without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 22:47:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA17706 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:47:38 -0800 Received: from mail.yifansoft.com (qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA17702 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:47:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host qmailr@ns1.yifansoft.com [64.61.26.50] claimed to be mail.yifansoft.com Received: (qmail 27960 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2001 06:47:06 -0000 Received: from 1cust105.tnt2.blacksburg.va.da.uu.net (HELO TheRebel) (63.14.245.105) by host5.yifansoft.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 06:47:06 -0000 From: "James Ballenger" To: Subject: RE: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:47:28 -0500 Message-ID: <008501c09264$2baac290$ca00a8c0@Vtech> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <007b01c0925f$b282d140$01010080@workstation> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >>Hall effect sensors seem to be very popular. All you need is a toothed >wheel >>and a sensor, right? What does the output signal look like? > >Order a hall effect gear tooth sensor from digi-key. Make sure >you get a >gear tooth sensor, not just a normal sensor. Allegro make a >nice one that >outputs TTL with no bounce or other crap. I just expoxied it, >a tiny rare >earth >magnet, and a piece of steel (to act as a pole piece) in a >piece of copper >tube. >Pretty robust solution. Please be extremely careful with this. Keep in mind the engine he will be using can rev to 14,100 rpm. I have seen some very robust solutions fly out of the wheel at insane speed... it might as well be shooting a bullet at you. For his app, he will need a good design and a good hole to place the magnets in with high strength epoxy and possibly some peening. At this speed precision in the magnet placement is also extremely important as is the air gap. James Ballenger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Feb 8 23:29:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA18104 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:29:36 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (oe38.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.95]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA18100 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:29:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe38.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.95] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:29:00 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.197.36] From: "944Technologist" To: Subject: NTK - I have the drawings for UEGO p/n TL-7111-W1 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:30:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2001 07:29:00.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8407890:01C09269] Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I used my business name and got some basic catalogs. I have the above UEGO, controller & cable drawings. I was looking for a NTK1136 spec but no...... 20 pages maybe. I don't know if that interests anyone but maybe I can scan it and post it on one of my web sites later. I haven't really had the time to look at it. Let me know, FR Wilk http://members.tripod.com/prsch944/dme.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 01:12:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA18639 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:12:16 -0800 Received: from sykes.demon.co.uk (sykes.demon.co.uk [158.152.196.243]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA18635 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:12:09 -0800 Received: from richm (richm [192.168.2.9]) by sykes.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/v3.2) with SMTP id JAA26598 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:12:06 GMT Message-ID: <013a01c09278$9c17a520$0902a8c0@richm.melksham> From: "Rich M" To: Subject: Re: MAF maximum frequency Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:13:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org thanks Bruce. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: 09 February 2001 00:24 Subject: Re: MAF maximum frequency > >The early Bosch ones that gm used were 30-130 Hz, from what I've read. >There was a posting abou the later ones, that I seem to have lost, but I >think the lat AL housing ones are 1-12K Hz. >Bruce > > >> Please can anyone give me any idea what frequency range would be expected >> (max and min) from frequency output type MAF's? >> >> Many thanks in anticipation >> >> Rich >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >-- >> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >> >> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 05:24:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19689 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:24:35 -0800 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA19685 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:24:29 -0800 Received: from [151.110.126.96] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for hektor.stardot-tech.com [209.19.108.20]) with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 13:24:29 UT Received: by cleohshub01.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1RRSBMXF>; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:23:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: EFI control Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:23:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > My comments -----Original Message----- From: James Montebello [mailto:jamesm@lapuwali.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:54 PM To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: EFI control Fine. Don't buy it. > I won't. Never planned on it. Lots of people do and are perfectly happy with it. If you're not, then buy something else, or build something else. Ragging on SDS for building a product that fills a market niche at a price that people are perfectly willing to pay is unwarranted. > Like I said, I am happy that SDS can sell it's product. It's simply > not good enough for me. If you're so unhappy about it, then I invite you to compete with them, so you can discover just how badly they're ripping everyone off with their overpriced, underengineered junk (that's sarcasm, btw). > Yeah, I can tell. As I said before, please build an ECU that meets the quality standards of a big OEM and sell it for the same price as SDS. Really. You'll bankrupt yourself, but a few lucky people will get a nice new ECU cheap at your expense before you run out of money. > If I were to do that, it would cost more than SDS because it would be > Better constructed, with more features. I'm also an engineer, but I'm not so arrogant as to think that all people involved in the marketing and sales sides are idiots. There are plenty of small business run by an engineer that's also serving as salesman, accountant, support, etc. There are plenty of salesmen out there with engineering degrees. There are plenty of engineers with MBAs. There are also plenty of engineers (esp. at big engineering companies) who haven't a clue about how to survive as a small businessman. > You are however arrogant enough to think that engineers at large engineering-type > companies must be idiots who couldn't possibly run a business without the acumen > of a marketing/sales type around. I know there's plenty of sales engineers out there, > I also know in my experience that there's a lot of idiots out there. > If you go back to my original statement, that SDS isn't waterproof, looks homemade and > costs more than accel, that's exactly what I meant. It doesn't look $1000 quality. > If you sum up my beef, it would be that SDS isn't worth $1000 TO ME, and that there's a > market for somebody to come along with a nice waterproof ECM with a nice harness that > can get a few more bucks for it. > If you're happy with SDS, fine. I'm not, and I don't care to debate it anymore. > And everyone in this country at least is entitled to an opinion, I have stated it, you have > stated yours. But don't tell me not to rag on SDS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 06:08:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA20143 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:08:17 -0800 Received: from mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com [24.92.68.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA20139 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:08:10 -0800 Received: from chick (m5hWs4n136.midsouth.rr.com [24.95.119.136]) by mailout1-100bt.midsouth.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f19E6up19681 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:06:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <001501c092a1$c3e182a0$9800a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> From: "Jurgen Hartwig" To: References: <008501c09264$2baac290$ca00a8c0@Vtech> Subject: Re: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:08:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I was told I can use a crank sensor from a Ford Escort. They are $18 from any NAPA store. I noticed digi-key wanted at least $15-30 for their ready-made hall effect sensors. Are they rated for the hot automotive environment or does it matter? Jay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 06:13:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA20194 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:13:20 -0800 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA20189 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:13:13 -0800 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 14REIY-000O9O-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:13:18 -0800 Message-ID: <004b01c092a2$961cf010$0100a8c0@telus.net> From: "John Dammeyer" To: References: <6D07A7DEF8E8D21182700080D8701070047F0FC8@cccntxch51.ceco.com> Subject: Re: vr vs hall Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:14:09 -0800 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org We used latching hall sensors for our EFI. There are magnets inserted into an aluminum ring underneath the camshaft timing pulley. On the Honda VTEC the this is a stamped metal cogged belt pulley. The magnet pairs are oriented as a Gray Code encoder so with two HALL sensors a single edge change occurs at every 90 CAM degrees. My interrupt routine therefore gets called on positive and negative edges and need only read the state of both Hall Sensors to determine which quadrant the CAM is in. No complicated short tooth spaces or missing tooth calculations etc. Because the sensors come up indeterminate the engine does need as much as two revolutions to set the magnets right. An opto system would work better here but we didn't have room underneath the pulley for any sort of vanes. John Dammeyer ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: RE: vr vs hall > Ed Lansinger had a similar problem with his teams SAE racer. He solved the > problem by routing the mag pickup lines through inline coaxial capacitors > soldered to the ECM case. The article appeared in 3 installments in circuit > cellar magazine issue #62/63/64 Sept/Oct/Nov This is the only Email I have > for Ed is lansie@rpi.edu. > > Take > Care > > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@bright.net] > > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 4:11 PM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: vr vs hall > > > > > > Without a whole lot more engine info., kinda hard to mention particular > > bits. > > > > The reluctor types are an A/C generator so the have some built in advance > > that might be a problem (wayy too much advance at high rpm). > > Halls on the other hand are fixed. well, maybe a lil movement, but > > basically where every the shutter is, that's the signal point > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > We''ve been having a tough time with noise on the triggering signal on > > our > > home > > > build efi system for formula sae....we're now considering either a hall > > effect > > > or variable reluctance setup directly on the crankshaft, and we're very > > space > > > limited. Does anyone have any comments on the two systems, and perhaps > > part #s? > > > S. prince > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > **************************************************************************** ***** > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corp. proprietary > information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright > belonging to the Exelon Corp. family of Companies. This E-mail is intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If > you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation > to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please > notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and > any copy of this E-mail and any printout. Thank You. > **************************************************************************** ***** > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 08:16:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA20858 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:16:08 -0800 Received: from keybank.com (csc06keysrva05s.keybank.com [156.77.98.45]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA20854 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:16:02 -0800 From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host csc06keysrva05s.keybank.com [156.77.98.45] claimed to be keybank.com Received: by keybank.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 852569EE.0058CED3 ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:10:01 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: KEYCORP To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-ID: <852569EE.0058CDC9.00@keybank.com> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: Motecs Price Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Someone asked who buys Motecs. --Just a quick tidbit. A friend of mine purchased Motec a few years back for a Porsche 962 he was servicing for a fairly wealthy customer. In this case, going to Motec was actually a cost saving excercise. It turns out that the new Motec system was half the cost of having the original Bosch box rebuilt. (962s were the IMSA GTP and LeMans cars of the late eightys & early ninetys, and only the Bosch factory was willing/qualified to tackle the rebuild at tremendous expense). Kinda fuzzy on the reasons that a "rebuild" was needed. I'll have to ask agian. Rod. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 09:47:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA21266 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:47:33 -0800 Received: from yampa.cmn.net (IDENT:root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA21262 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:47:24 -0800 Received: from [206.168.145.98] (user124.cmn.net [206.168.145.98]) by yampa.cmn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA15801 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:33:40 -0700 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:50:40 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Motecs Price Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 11:15 AM 2/9/01, Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com wrote: >Someone asked who buys Motecs. --Just a quick tidbit. A friend of mine >purchased Motec a few years back for a Porsche 962 he was servicing for a >fairly >wealthy customer. In this case, going to Motec was actually a cost saving >excercise. It turns out that the new Motec system was half the cost of having >the original Bosch box rebuilt. (962s were the IMSA GTP and LeMans cars of the >late eightys & early ninetys, and only the Bosch factory was willing/qualified >to tackle the rebuild at tremendous expense). Kinda fuzzy on the reasons >that a >"rebuild" was needed. I'll have to ask agian. >Rod. Motec's are a lot less $$$$ if purchase from Oz rather than from their US distributor. And, if you like Motec, Autronics is about the same quality, MORE features in some areas, and significantly less $$$. Autronics was established by a guy, name of Aubert, I believe, who split from Motec. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 12:19:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22429 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:19:55 -0800 Received: from pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca (pumpkin.bcit.ca [142.232.189.70]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA22424 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:19:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host pumpkin.bcit.ca [142.232.189.70] claimed to be pumpkin.bcit.bc.ca Subject: SuperPro II Programmer Help To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Peter Fenske" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:14:15 -0800 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notesmail/BCIT(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 02/09/2001 12:14:48 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi All Was wondering if anyone has any documentation for a Superpro II universal programmer. Also if anyone has docs for a PICPRO PIC programmer. Sorry to intrude Thanks all:peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 12:47:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22799 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:47:54 -0800 Received: from mail.verizonwireless.com ([199.74.158.61]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA22794 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:47:47 -0800 From: Steve.Flanagan@VerizonWireless.com X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [199.74.158.61] claimed to be mail.verizonwireless.com Received: from mail.verizonwireless.com by mail.verizonwireless.com (414/1100) with ESMTP id f19KghN09817 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by hqbedigw2.corp.bam.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1SHZX0VH>; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:43:53 -0500 Message-ID: <19D424DA3941D41189DE0008C7EB79DB52E357@hqbedex3.corp.bam.com> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Motecs Price Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:40:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org where can I get info on the Autronics system? -----Original Message----- From: bearbvd@cmn.net [mailto:bearbvd@cmn.net] Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:51 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Motecs Price At 11:15 AM 2/9/01, Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com wrote: >Someone asked who buys Motecs. --Just a quick tidbit. A friend of mine >purchased Motec a few years back for a Porsche 962 he was servicing for a >fairly >wealthy customer. In this case, going to Motec was actually a cost saving >excercise. It turns out that the new Motec system was half the cost of having >the original Bosch box rebuilt. (962s were the IMSA GTP and LeMans cars of the >late eightys & early ninetys, and only the Bosch factory was willing/qualified >to tackle the rebuild at tremendous expense). Kinda fuzzy on the reasons >that a >"rebuild" was needed. I'll have to ask agian. >Rod. Motec's are a lot less $$$$ if purchase from Oz rather than from their US distributor. And, if you like Motec, Autronics is about the same quality, MORE features in some areas, and significantly less $$$. Autronics was established by a guy, name of Aubert, I believe, who split from Motec. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 13:17:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA23068 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:17:16 -0800 Received: from www.sgn.net (root@www.sgn.net [212.72.100.99]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA23064 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:17:06 -0800 Received: from avtomatika.com (058.dial.netsi.net [212.72.96.58]) by www.sgn.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA28973 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:16:58 +0100 Message-ID: <3A845F2E.D5F9FB24@avtomatika.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:20:46 +0100 From: Branko Badrljica Organization: AVTOMATIKA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: SuperPro II Programmer Help References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Peter Fenske wrote: > Hi All > > Was wondering if anyone has any documentation for a Superpro II > universal programmer. > What do you want to know about SPII ? I had it once (actually two of them...) Regards, Branko > > Also if anyone has docs for a PICPRO PIC programmer. > > Sorry to intrude > > Thanks all:peter > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 14:01:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA23342 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:01:53 -0800 Received: from yampa.cmn.net (IDENT:root@yampa.cmn.net [206.168.145.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA23338 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:01:47 -0800 Received: from [206.168.145.234] (user39.cmn.net [206.168.145.234]) by yampa.cmn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA16993 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:48:02 -0700 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:05:05 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: Motecs Price Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 3:40 PM 2/9/01, Steve.Flanagan@VerizonWireless.com wrote: >where can I get info on the Autronics system? > There is a link on the Ray Hall Turbocharging site. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 14:44:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA23845 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:44:25 -0800 Received: from deborah.paradise.net.nz (deborah.paradise.net.nz [203.96.152.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA23840 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:44:17 -0800 Received: from workstation (203-79-95-35.apx0.paradise.net.nz [203.79.95.35]) by deborah.paradise.net.nz (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f19MiFQ09038 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:44:15 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <002e01c092ea$255c4360$01010080@workstation> From: "Tony Bryant" To: Subject: Re: Trying to decide on RPM & crank angle sensor Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:46:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Please be extremely careful with this. Keep in mind the engine he will be >using can rev to 14,100 rpm. I have seen some very robust solutions fly out >of the wheel at insane speed... it might as well be shooting a bullet at >you. For his app, he will need a good design and a good hole to place the >magnets in with high strength epoxy and possibly some peening. At this >speed precision in the magnet placement is also extremely important as is >the air gap. > No, No, No, I was NOT sugguesting attaching anything except a balanced toothed wheel to the crank. The magnet sits inside the sensor assembly, i.e. fixed to the engine. The slots in the crank pulley I was suggesting is an alternative to fabbing a toothed wheel, NOT as somewhere to put a magnet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Feb 9 21:27:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA26808 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:27:28 -0800 Received: from dalek.ains.net.au (ains.net.au [210.9.53.3]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA26804 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:27:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ains.net.au [210.9.53.3] claimed to be dalek.ains.net.au Received: from joe (pgw135.ains.net.au [202.61.243.135]) by dalek.ains.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA05873 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:27:18 +1100 Message-ID: <004a01c09321$65efebc0$87f33dca@joe> From: "Joe Beninca" To: References: Subject: Re:Autronic info Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:21:58 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Hermann To: Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2001 9:05 AM Subject: RE: Motecs Price > At 3:40 PM 2/9/01, Steve.Flanagan@VerizonWireless.com wrote: > >where can I get info on the Autronics system? > > > There is a link on the Ray Hall Turbocharging site. > > > > Greg AUTRONIC info also at http://www.beninca.com.au/autronic.htm and follow links Joe > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 08:31:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA30102 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:31:43 -0800 Received: from oxe.cs.umu.se (root@oxe.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA30098 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:31:35 -0800 Received: from peppar.cs.umu.se (rfc1413 says c95fsg@peppar.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.13]) by oxe.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19963 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:31:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (rfc1413 says c95fsg@localhost) by peppar.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21628 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:31:30 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: peppar.cs.umu.se: c95fsg owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:31:30 +0100 (MET) From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: MBE system Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi all! I'm interested to hear if anyone on the list has any experience with the MBE 941 fuel/ignition system. I have recently purchased such a unit and it seems to be a very robust and nicely engineered product. It is widely used in rally cars here in europe. The software is nice and powerful and seems to be offering everything a racer can need. I have not had any time to dig deep into the system or try it out, but I have seen a few cars with the system, and they are very happy with it. Both street and racing. The only downside is the documentation on the system wich is very limited. Ther are some more info on www.mbesystems.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@cs.umu.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 10:02:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA30860 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:02:50 -0800 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA30855 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:02:44 -0800 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 14ReG4-000GnI-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:56:28 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c0938b$d15d6530$0100a8c0@telus.net> From: "John Dammeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: MBE system Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:03:44 -0800 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What's the price of the unit and what sort of connector do they have? It's difficult to tell from the photo. Do they supply a wiring harness? John Dammeyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fredrik Skog" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 8:31 AM Subject: MBE system Hi all! I'm interested to hear if anyone on the list has any experience with the MBE 941 fuel/ignition system. I have recently purchased such a unit and it seems to be a very robust and nicely engineered product. It is widely used in rally cars here in europe. The software is nice and powerful and seems to be offering everything a racer can need. I have not had any time to dig deep into the system or try it out, but I have seen a few cars with the system, and they are very happy with it. Both street and racing. The only downside is the documentation on the system wich is very limited. Ther are some more info on www.mbesystems.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@cs.umu.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 10:56:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA31167 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:56:36 -0800 Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA31163 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:56:30 -0800 Received: (qmail 28146 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 18:56:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jawbreaker) ([64.81.134.157]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Feb 2001 18:56:41 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20010210140117.00f823c4@mail.speakeasy.org> X-Sender: synchris@mail.speakeasy.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:01:18 -0500 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Chris Conlon Subject: Re: Emulator (was EFI control) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 05:53 PM 2/7/01 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote: >You've got at least one interested, but it would need to support the >'749, so 128K bits. > >1 Flash, 1 static ram, muxes and PIC? I can do the PIC stuff, I have a >PICmaster. It does get more complicated, but with surface mount it >can still be reasonably sized. > >On startup, copy the flash to ram and run the ecu out of ram. When >changes come in the serial port switch the ecu to flash, make changes >to ram, then switch the ecu back to ram. This will work well if only a few bytes are changed, so that the changes can be stored in PIC memory. (After you switch the ECU back to RAM you have to reapply the same changes to the flash.) Personally I'd use 2 128k SRAMs, and 128k of whatever nonvolatile you prefer. This lets you d/l a complete rom image to the PIC's SRAM, burn it to NV (which may be slowish depending on what you use), swap the SRAMs (giving the ECU the new image) and then update the PICs SRAM from NVRAM. You'll need 74xx244s + 74xx245s (or equivalent) so that either the PIC "bus" or the ECU bus can talk to either SRAM. The NVRAM, assuming it's flash or parallel eeprom, can also hang off the PIC bus via 244/245s. This is more HW than you need the other way, but not a lot more, and it opens up your choice of NVRAM to just about anything. Speaking of the PIC "bus", are there PICs available that support an external data bus with 18+ address lines? If not you'll need to do a simple fake data bus thing, where you have some output latches for the addr bus and control bits (/CS, /OE, /WE) and 8 i/o bits for the data bus. Nothing too tricky. If you want to do the address bits via SPI, the 'xx595 works very nicely. Chris C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 11:18:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA31311 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:18:55 -0800 Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA31307 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:18:49 -0800 Received: (qmail 55517 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 19:16:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jawbreaker) ([64.81.134.157]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Feb 2001 19:16:22 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20010210142057.00dc2b14@mail.speakeasy.org> X-Sender: synchris@mail.speakeasy.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:20:59 -0500 To: From: Chris Conlon Subject: Re: MAFs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 05:55 AM 2/8/01 +0100, Axel Rietschin wrote: >> Yes, you missed a small point. The location of the MAF (before or after >> the compressor), in a system that has a significant volume of plumbing >> after the compressor *does* make a difference. The reason being the >> "air through MAF = air into engine" relationship is only true in steady >> state. When the pressure post-compressor is changing, up or down, the >> airflow through the MAF is not equal to flow into the engine. Some is >> being either pumped up into the plumbing, or delivered from the pumped >> up volume into the engine. > >You mean you can get a faster response from the MAF (less lag) when it's >located closer to the engine because the plumbing volume introduces an >additional delay? I didn't think if it at first but I see no problem with >that. Hmmm I have not thought about it in terms of faster/slower. When the MAF is pre-compressor it actually reads higher, sooner than it would post-compressor, for a brief time when boost is rising. It's measuring the air that's actually going into the engine plus the amount of air needed to pump up the post-compressor plumbing to X psi of boost. The situation is opposite as boost falls, some of engine's needs are fed from stored boost post-compressor and the MAF does not see that air. (It saw it earlier during boost ramp up.) I haven't thought too hard about it yet but even with the MAF post- compressor, location may still make a slight difference. The more plumbing volume you have after the MAF, that is subject to wide swings in pressure, I think the more the MAF reading will be high under pumpup and low under pumpdown. (Could be way off base here.) As long as your ECU knows what to expect (as far as dynamic correction) I don't think there would be a problem either way. (This ignores the temperature compensation issue and the turbulence issues.) >> I've measured this effect on my supercharged MR2 and it is very real. >> It's a very small lag in terms of watching a boost gauge but in terms >> of throttle response it's very very noticable... if you have a >> differently-responding setup to compare it to anyway. > >For the above reason, I easily believe it. It's just that the MAF-after-IC >for temp correctness or whathever still is a no-no (or a yes-yes, I mean >before or after the IC and/or compressor is exactly the same thing as far as >air mass in concerned) > >On the other hand, faster response is very desirable and it this respect, a >MAP sensor (2ms response time) in the inlet manifold is hard to beat. Yeah... I'm not saying anything one way or the other about what location is best for a MAF, since I really don't know. I would at least try to see if turbulence and/or rapid temp swings will be a problem, though, if I wanted to do something like that. Personally I'm using MAP... I ran into the quirk of MAF response by accident. >> One thing you can do to greatly sharpen up the response of temp sensors >> is to make a first order slope correction. Measure temp (call it C), > >It may be that the OEM ECUs are doing this? Dunno. For NA applications, I >don't think they bother. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they don't bother for NA engines. In my mind this goes along with the slowness of typical IAT sensors. I think if they felt there was a problem we'd see faster-responding sensors in wider use before anybody wrote a line of code. >> This is lots easier if your temp sensor is a bandgap or t-couple that >> reads a voltage directly proportional to absolute temperature, eg. TMP3x > >Definitely. For info, I use a custom-made air temp sensor (using a >Thermometrics FP07 NTC sensing element) for my own engine. This baby has a >time constant of 100ms in still air (7ms in water), just to say I'm _very_ >concerned with sensor response :) I'm with you all the way. Currently I'm using some lightweight NTC thermistors, suspended in the middle of the airflow. (Higher flow rate past the sensor helps a lot.) I'm still not happy with the setup though. I'm using glass thermistors because I originally spec'ed a very high max temp rating. At this point I'd rather have a faster responding sensor though. Chris C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 12:24:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA31687 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:24:36 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA31683 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:24:30 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010210202354.ZKPQ25405.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:23:54 -0800 Message-ID: <004501c093b8$c239b040$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <01e301c09144$4bf190e0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> Subject: Friendly Emulator Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:25:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having to > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > Bruce > We're there now?........... What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the engine? Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? For use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 12:56:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA31890 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:56:51 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA31886 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:56:45 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010210205613.CZS25405.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:56:13 -0800 Message-ID: <00c101c093bd$45c033e0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: Subject: Re: Running 8 low impedence injectors on GM ECM using an auxilliary injector driver? Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:57:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Doesn't the Accel VIC trigger all 8 injectors at once based on a single > input trigger? Could this cause any driveability problems on the 1990 > Camaro/Firebird V8 and other similar GM ECM's? What about bank fire systems? > > Jason You are right Jason. I just rechecked, and it looks like one input trigger for all 8 injector channels in the case of the VIC. However, this is no biggie for a batch fire engine as you have described above. The 90 L98 for instance, in OE form, fires all of the injectors simultaneously according to SSDF or SSSF or ASYNCH mode. So, no matter whether you tap into the INJA trigger or the INJB trigger of the ECM, things should be fine. One box would then control all injectors, up to a max count of 8. You would only really need independant bank control in instances such as dual alternating channel TBI setups, or hybrids thereof (Holley 4bbl TBI, Dual Rochester TBI's, custom MPI controlled by dual channel TBI ECM's, etc.....). Even then, you could also run some of these simultaneously and asynchronously, in a pinch, using a VIC. To retain independant bank control, will require a custom external box. An example JPEG schematic of such an external custom box can be found at the incoming directory, under the name "External TBI P&H". Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 16:55:52 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA00497 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:55:52 -0800 Received: from spdmraac.compuserve.com (ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA00491 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:55:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ds-img-rel-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.154] claimed to be spdmraac.compuserve.com Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id TAA06203 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from HOMEXXL (fra-pci-lai-vty15.as.wcom.net [212.211.70.15]) by spdmraac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id TAA06178 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:54:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501c093c5$3087f230$0f46d3d4@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: <3.0.32.20010210142057.00dc2b14@mail.speakeasy.org> Subject: Re: MAFs Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:54:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Chris Conlon" > >You mean you can get a faster response from the MAF (less lag) when it's > >located closer to the engine because the plumbing volume introduces an > >additional delay? I didn't think if it at first but I see no problem with > >that. > > Hmmm I have not thought about it in terms of faster/slower. When the > MAF is pre-compressor it actually reads higher, sooner than it would > post-compressor, for a brief time when boost is rising. It's measuring > the air that's actually going into the engine plus the amount of air > needed to pump up the post-compressor plumbing to X psi of boost. The > situation is opposite as boost falls, some of engine's needs are fed > from stored boost post-compressor and the MAF does not see that air. > (It saw it earlier during boost ramp up.) Got it. However, post compressor is likely so see a lot of reverse flow at times which could be accounted as forward flow by the MAF. Maybe the right amount of filtering could get rid of the 'irregularities'. > >Definitely. For info, I use a custom-made air temp sensor (using a > >Thermometrics FP07 NTC sensing element) for my own engine. This baby has a > >time constant of 100ms in still air (7ms in water), just to say I'm _very_ > >concerned with sensor response :) > > I'm with you all the way. Currently I'm using some lightweight NTC > thermistors, suspended in the middle of the airflow. (Higher flow rate > past the sensor helps a lot.) I'm still not happy with the setup though. > I'm using glass thermistors because I originally spec'ed a very high > max temp rating. At this point I'd rather have a faster responding > sensor though. Check out www.thermometrics.com Look into Products -> Automotive and search the page for FP07. You'll find a PDF with the specs. I was able to purchase a couple of samples from one of their distributors and I put it in a recycled regular Weber-Marelli sensor housing which fits into my inlet manifold. --Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Feb 10 18:29:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA00972 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:29:33 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA00968 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:29:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.68]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:10:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c093d2$8c0f44c0$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <01e301c09144$4bf190e0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> <004501c093b8$c239b040$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:30:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Sherwin To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:25 PM Subject: Friendly Emulator > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having > to > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > Bruce > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the engine? > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? For > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > Walt. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Feb 11 08:28:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA12706 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:28:48 -0800 Received: from oxe.cs.umu.se (root@oxe.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA12702 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:28:36 -0800 Received: from peppar.cs.umu.se (rfc1413 says c95fsg@peppar.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.13]) by oxe.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23455 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:28:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (rfc1413 says c95fsg@localhost) by peppar.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20530 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:28:34 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: peppar.cs.umu.se: c95fsg owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:28:33 +0100 (MET) From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: More on MBE In-Reply-To: <200102110900.BAA02771@hektor.valesh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: Hi all! The actual price I don't know exactly, because I was in a group buy with a few other guys so we got a nice discount, But we paid 890$ for the control unit with windows software and a connector that fits the box. I think that the actual price is near 1300$. The connector is for building your own wiring harness or just making an adapter from an existing motronic harness. I have no Idea if they make custom fit harnesses, but probably they do. The name of the connector I don't know about, but it is an AMP connentor part no 0-963533-1. It has 55 pins in it and looks almost like a Bosch motronic connector. It has a rubber seal so I think it's weather proof. The connenctor also have an metal thing to lock it into place for a secure fit against the control unit. The Control unit is made from billet aluminum with an o-ring sealed lid. All the parts are surface mount on a single PCB. The dimensions are 16x13.6cm (6.3x5.3 inches) All in all the unit looks very nice and robust. Alot more robust than most OEM boxes I have seen. I know looks and feel isn't everything, but It sure feels comforting. If the outside is this well built, then it's a good chance the inside is equally well built. MBE have supplied engine management computers to Opel rally cars and now they have made a deal with TWR. I think they also make OEM units for motorcycles, marine use and aviation. If anyone has experience with this unit I would be interested to hear about it. /Fredrik Skog > > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:31:30 +0100 (MET) > From: Fredrik Skog > Subject: MBE system > > Hi all! > > I'm interested to hear if anyone on the list has any experience with the > MBE 941 fuel/ignition system. I have recently purchased such a unit and it > seems to be a very robust and nicely engineered product. It is widely used > in rally cars here in europe. The software is nice and powerful and seems > to be offering everything a racer can need. > I have not had any time to dig deep into the system or try it out, but I > have seen a few cars with the system, and they are very happy with it. > Both street and racing. > The only downside is the documentation on the system wich is very limited. > > Ther are some more info on www.mbesystems.com > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University > > Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@cs.umu.se > Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog > 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 > Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 > > > What's the price of the unit and what sort of connector do they have? It's > difficult to tell from the photo. Do they supply a wiring harness? > > John Dammeyer > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Feb 11 11:02:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA13715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:02:03 -0800 Received: from rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu (root@whistler.artisan.calpoly.edu [129.65.2.41]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA13711 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:01:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@whistler.artisan.calpoly.edu [129.65.2.41] claimed to be rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu Received: from al (modem56-055.offcampus.calpoly.edu [129.65.105.55]) by rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA09866 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Al Lipper" To: "DIY_EFI" Subject: ECU7 and Holley Commander 950 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:11:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm working on the development of software that will work with the ECU7 project (now in the form of ECU8). Anyway, the goal is to develop some easy-to-use calibration software. I've heard about Holley's new Commander 950, and wondered if anyone has had much experience with one. In particular, is the software good. If so, perhaps we can incorporate some features from it into the ECU7 software. Please let me know. Thanks. Al Lipper efi@injectionlogic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Feb 11 18:09:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA15598 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:09:54 -0800 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA15594 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:09:47 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010212020832.GIGF16501.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:08:32 -0800 Message-ID: <003801c094b2$29d3a680$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <01e301c09144$4bf190e0$2f0ac9d8@brucescompute> <004501c093b8$c239b040$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <000b01c093d2$8c0f44c0$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:10:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Naw, I gave up trying to get my Dataman S4 to play with my '7060 box. Tried everything that their techie's suggested, but no cigar. Very disappointing as I've used the S4 with other MemCal boxes in the past, and at least one other guy that I know of on the left coast purports to have used his S4 with his '7060 with great success. Even sent my S4 to Florida for test/inspection, with NTF. Oh well, it needed a battery pack anyway......... I broke down and bought a "UNIROM UR08 - 512 - 90ns Real Time Memory Emulator Package" from Tech Tools, a little while back. Looked like an excellent candidate at the time. However, I have not yet gotten around to trying it. It should support instant on-the-fly changes. The GUI looks a bit primitive, but functional. Walt. > You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? > > Lyndon. > > > > > > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having > > to > > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones > > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the engine? > > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? For > > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > > > Walt. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Feb 11 21:11:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA16768 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:11:40 -0800 Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA16764 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:11:34 -0800 Received: from pacbell ([63.196.112.239]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0G8M00IT7OSNOD@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:05:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:07:48 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Friendly Emulator In-reply-to: <003801c094b2$29d3a680$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi Walter, Gotta url for that???? -Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Walter Sherwin Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 9:11 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Naw, I gave up trying to get my Dataman S4 to play with my '7060 box. Tried everything that their techie's suggested, but no cigar. Very disappointing as I've used the S4 with other MemCal boxes in the past, and at least one other guy that I know of on the left coast purports to have used his S4 with his '7060 with great success. Even sent my S4 to Florida for test/inspection, with NTF. Oh well, it needed a battery pack anyway......... I broke down and bought a "UNIROM UR08 - 512 - 90ns Real Time Memory Emulator Package" from Tech Tools, a little while back. Looked like an excellent candidate at the time. However, I have not yet gotten around to trying it. It should support instant on-the-fly changes. The GUI looks a bit primitive, but functional. Walt. > You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? > > Lyndon. > > > > > > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from having > > to > > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones > > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the engine? > > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? For > > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > > > Walt. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 02:56:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA18883 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:56:40 -0800 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA18877 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:56:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cruzers.com [205.215.232.2] claimed to be blackie.cruzers.com Received: from cruzers.com (robbie-147.cruzers.com [209.165.194.147]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA07701 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:56:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A87BC71.F01C9767@cruzers.com> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:36:33 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Emulator (was EFI control) References: <3.0.32.20010210140117.00f823c4@mail.speakeasy.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Chris Conlon wrote: > > Personally I'd use 2 128k SRAMs, and 128k of whatever nonvolatile you > prefer. This lets you d/l a complete rom image to the PIC's SRAM, > burn it to NV (which may be slowish depending on what you use), > swap the SRAMs (giving the ECU the new image) and then update the PICs > SRAM from NVRAM. You'll need 74xx244s + 74xx245s (or equivalent) so > that either the PIC "bus" or the ECU bus can talk to either SRAM. The > NVRAM, assuming it's flash or parallel eeprom, can also hang off the > PIC bus via 244/245s. Read the GMecm archives. This issue generated lots of messages soon after gmecm was started. The design eventually settled on a single DualPortSRAM, a PIC, a battery controller chip, an RS232 driver/receiver chip, and perhaps one or two other chips. Sure, a DPRAM is more expensive than regular SRAM, but it is less than an SRAM plus all the glue logic needed. DPRAMs aren't designed for battery powered data retention, but it turns out that a simple battery can keep a DPRAM alive for weeks/months. A double sized DPRAM can let the ECU run from one PROM image while another is (slowly) downloaded. Battery backing up the DPRAM allows the ECU to start running from it immediately after power up - the data doesn't need to be copied from a seperate NVRAM. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 05:28:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19613 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:28:05 -0800 Received: from scc061.its.state.nc.us (scc061.its.state.nc.us [149.168.25.14]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA19609 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:27:59 -0800 From: mike.hoenes@ncmail.net Received: from ncmail.net (149.168.157.133) by scc061.its.state.nc.us (5.1.039) id 3A4A027C0018204A for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:07:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:07:04 -0500 Organization: N.C. Dept. of Health and Human Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I need a guru on this one. My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of something wrong with the Knock Sensor circuit. I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all the wiring, and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. All the voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set the code. Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the code. TIA mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 07:20:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA20137 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:20:54 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA20132 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:20:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.87]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:01:31 -0700 Message-ID: <008101c09507$76c05600$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:21:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bad knock sensor, RFI from ignition wiring (make sure the ignition isn't within 6" of the KS wiring circuit--I can send you the actual GM diagnostic sheet on this. Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 6:07 AM Subject: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed > I need a guru on this one. > My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of something wrong > with the Knock Sensor circuit. > I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all the wiring, > and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. All the > voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set the code. > Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? > The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the code. > > TIA > mike > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 08:18:49 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA20724 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:18:49 -0800 Received: from dino.ghsp.com (mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA20718 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:18:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail.ghsp.com [206.26.15.200] claimed to be dino.ghsp.com Received: by DINO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <144HNBGA>; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:18:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Eric Bryant To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > From: Programmer [mailto:nwester@eidnet.org] > Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed > > > Bad knock sensor, RFI from ignition wiring (make sure the > ignition isn't > within 6" of the KS wiring circuit--I can send you the actual > GM diagnostic > sheet on this. I'd be interested in seeing this, especially considering all the recent discussion on the LT1_Edit list about RFI-induced false knock. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante@ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 09:47:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA21256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:47:54 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA21252 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:47:47 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([209.143.37.50]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010212174742.JRM10619.invictus@brucescompute> for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:47:42 -0500 Message-ID: <016801c0951b$fc72a000$32258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> <008101c09507$76c05600$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:48:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Also, might need more timing added during the test. You can get to the stage of everything perfect and do EST codes, cause the engine is not very detonation prone. In addition to items mentioned. Bruce From: "Programmer" > Bad knock sensor, RFI from ignition wiring (make sure the ignition isn't > within 6" of the KS wiring circuit--I can send you the actual GM diagnostic > sheet on this. > Lyndon. > From: mike.hoenes@ncmail.net > > I need a guru on this one. > > My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of > something wrong > > with the Knock Sensor circuit. > > I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all > the wiring, > > and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. > All the > > voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set the > code. > > Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? > > The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the > code. > > > > TIA > > mike > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 10:29:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA21537 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:29:16 -0800 Received: from mail46.fg.online.no (mail46-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.46]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA21529 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:29:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail46-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.46] claimed to be mail46.fg.online.no Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a02-0168.dialup.online.no [130.67.69.168]) by mail46.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA09816 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:28:43 +0100 (MET) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:25:04 +0100 Message-ID: <01C09529.8074A620.mwichstr@online.no> From: espen hilde To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:22:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft-program for e-post for Internett/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi! Just got myself a Racelogik emulator,havent tryed it yet,the HI/LO quick eprom programmer card is not what my PC wants...Many of you guys uses Needham? Is this the best? I could ask for a group buy price for the Racelogik emulator if your interested. Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 12:12:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22072 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:12:50 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA22068 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:12:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.94]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:53:28 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c09530$46c5a260$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <01C09529.8074A620.mwichstr@online.no> Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:13:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Interested ? Yes !! Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: espen hilde To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator > Hi! > Just got myself a Racelogik emulator,havent tryed it yet,the HI/LO quick > eprom programmer card is not what my PC wants...Many of you guys uses Needham? Is this the best? > I could ask for a group buy price for the Racelogik emulator if your interested. > Espen > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 12:11:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22052 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:11:35 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA22047 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:11:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.94]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:52:12 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c09530$19c0abc0$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> <008101c09507$76c05600$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> <016801c0951b$fc72a000$32258fd1@brucescompute> Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:12:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yeah--I remember some guys setting ESC codes because they were running 93 octane--but I don't recall the code doing the "timing test" in the early years... Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Plecan To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:48 AM Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed > > Also, might need more timing added during the test. > You can get to the stage of everything perfect and do EST codes, cause the > engine is not very detonation prone. In addition to items mentioned. > Bruce > > From: "Programmer" > > Bad knock sensor, RFI from ignition wiring (make sure the ignition isn't > > within 6" of the KS wiring circuit--I can send you the actual GM > diagnostic > > sheet on this. > > Lyndon. > > > From: mike.hoenes@ncmail.net > > > I need a guru on this one. > > > My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of > > something wrong > > > with the Knock Sensor circuit. > > > I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all > > the wiring, > > > and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. > > All the > > > voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set > the > > code. > > > Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? > > > The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the > > code. > > > > > > TIA > > > mike > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 12:59:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22672 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:59:13 -0800 Received: from mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA22668 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:59:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50] claimed to be mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au Received: from optushome.com.au ([203.164.163.212]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010212205848.FTIA26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@optushome.com.au> for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:58:48 +1100 Message-ID: <3A885093.2B0D9651@optushome.com.au> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:07:31 +1100 From: Richard Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi Mike, I have had this and I too was scratching my head for a while. Someone had fitted the wrong Knock sensor. They looked identical just the resistance was different. On our early Aussie Holdens the lower resistance type is used typically 3.8K ohms and on our latter Eco Tec engines the resistance is much higher 100K ohms. What is puzzling is why a code 43 was not set initially when the wrong 100K sensor was first installed. I hope this is what's setting your code 43. Cheers Richard. mike.hoenes@ncmail.net wrote: > I need a guru on this one. > My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of something wrong > with the Knock Sensor circuit. > I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all the wiring, > and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. All the > voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set the code. > Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? > The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the code. > > TIA > mike > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 15:08:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA23372 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:08:36 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA23368 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:08:30 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010212230757.MABP25405.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:07:57 -0800 Message-ID: <002101c09562$0198d220$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:09:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yup...... http://www.tech-tools.com/romtools.htm http://www.dataman.com/ Walt. > Hi Walter, > Gotta url for that???? > -Carl > > > > Naw, I gave up trying to get my Dataman S4 to play with my '7060 box. > Tried everything that their techie's suggested, but no cigar. Very > disappointing as I've used the S4 with other MemCal boxes in the past, and > at least one other guy that I know of on the left coast purports to have > used his S4 with his '7060 with great success. Even sent my S4 to Florida > for test/inspection, with NTF. Oh well, it needed a battery pack > anyway......... > > I broke down and bought a "UNIROM UR08 - 512 - 90ns Real Time Memory > Emulator Package" from Tech Tools, a little while back. Looked like an > excellent candidate at the time. However, I have not yet gotten around to > trying it. It should support instant on-the-fly changes. The GUI looks a > bit primitive, but functional. > > Walt. > > > > > > You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? > > > > Lyndon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from > having > > > to > > > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > > > > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones > > > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the > engine? > > > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? > For > > > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > > > > > Walt. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 15:49:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA23643 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:49:45 -0800 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA23638 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:49:38 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010212234907.NJZM25405.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:49:07 -0800 Message-ID: <003501c09567$c14ea220$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <200102120900.BAA18110@hektor.valesh.com> <3A87DFF8.86AB9F84@ncmail.net> <008101c09507$76c05600$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> <016801c0951b$fc72a000$32258fd1@brucescompute> Subject: Re: 90 MAP system Code 43 help needed Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:50:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Was there any work done to the vehicle, or were there any other changes/events, which may have coincided with the onset of this problem? Perhaps some service work, or perhaps a component change, or perhaps even a cal change? Are you now running a better fuel than before? The MALF 43 algo is pretty straight forward. Part one usually peers out into the world to determine whether a functioning ESC sensor is dangling within the circuitry. Part two usually advances the timing slightly to look for self induced knock. If the algo does not sense knock as a result of this, it will try usually once more and then set a MALF code if it does not sense knock the second time around. There are discrete cal thresholds that define when and how often "Part Two" plays these games. Usually at a minimum they are: coolant above X, elapsed test time GT X, ESC counts less than X during the test, box not in diagnostic mode, box either in PE mode or in non PE mode but TPS GT X, other MALF codes not currently active, RPM GT X, MAP GT X, coolant LT X, and a few others. What cal package are you running? Perhaps someone can fill in the blank "X's" for you. ESC sensors are physically affected by installation torque, overtorquing, and gunk thickness on the threads. It might be a good idea to manually determine that your ESC sensor has not gone deaf. With engine running, and a scan tool hooked-up, try rapping the block with something heavy and metallic. If all is well, you should see a blip of ESC count activity on the scan tool each time you whack away. If not, then something is surely funny within your ESC setup. This is best accomplished with an assistant. Walt. > > Also, might need more timing added during the test. > You can get to the stage of everything perfect and do EST codes, cause the > engine is not very detonation prone. In addition to items mentioned. > Bruce > > From: "Programmer" > > Bad knock sensor, RFI from ignition wiring (make sure the ignition isn't > > within 6" of the KS wiring circuit--I can send you the actual GM > diagnostic > > sheet on this. > > Lyndon. > > > From: mike.hoenes@ncmail.net > > > I need a guru on this one. > > > My ECM is setting a code 43 - which on this setup is indicative of > > something wrong > > > with the Knock Sensor circuit. > > > I have replaced the sensor, the ECM, the distributor pickup, checked all > > the wiring, > > > and I have checked all the "sense" voltages in the Knock Sensor circuit. > > All the > > > voltages indicate that everything is normal and that it should not set > the > > code. > > > Does anyone know of another reason it sets a code 43? > > > The system worked fine for about 6 months beofe it started setting the > > code. > > > > > > TIA > > > mike > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 16:21:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA23850 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:21:11 -0800 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA23846 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:21:04 -0800 Received: from cr29243a ([24.157.48.113]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010213001942.QISG16501.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:19:42 -0800 Message-ID: <003701c0956c$1eec8ec0$71309d18@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:21:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yup...... http://www.tech-tools.com/romtools.htm http://www.dataman.com/ Walt. > Hi Walter, > Gotta url for that???? > -Carl > > > > Naw, I gave up trying to get my Dataman S4 to play with my '7060 box. > Tried everything that their techie's suggested, but no cigar. Very > disappointing as I've used the S4 with other MemCal boxes in the past, and > at least one other guy that I know of on the left coast purports to have > used his S4 with his '7060 with great success. Even sent my S4 to Florida > for test/inspection, with NTF. Oh well, it needed a battery pack > anyway......... > > I broke down and bought a "UNIROM UR08 - 512 - 90ns Real Time Memory > Emulator Package" from Tech Tools, a little while back. Looked like an > excellent candidate at the time. However, I have not yet gotten around to > trying it. It should support instant on-the-fly changes. The GUI looks a > bit primitive, but functional. > > Walt. > > > > > > You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? > > > > Lyndon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from > having > > > to > > > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > > > > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? Ones > > > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the > engine? > > > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? > For > > > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > > > > > Walt. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 17:07:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA24329 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:07:25 -0800 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA24325 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:07:19 -0800 Received: from modem-252.eilenach.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.176.252] helo=muts) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14STvu-0007IH-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:07:07 +0000 Message-ID: <003501c09558$bfa07ac0$fcb0883e@muts.freeserve.co.uk> From: "Phil" To: Subject: advance curve Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:03:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Does anyone know if is true that an engine burning propane requires more ignition advance at low rpm and less advance at high rpm than petrol? If so why.. Thanks Phillip Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 18:18:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA24792 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:18:00 -0800 Received: from rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu (root@whistler.artisan.calpoly.edu [129.65.2.41]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA24788 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:17:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@whistler.artisan.calpoly.edu [129.65.2.41] claimed to be rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu Received: from al (modem56-3-155.offcampus.calpoly.edu [129.65.106.155]) by rubens.artisan.calpoly.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA25136; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:17:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Al Lipper" To: Cc: Subject: RE: advance curve Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:27:27 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: <003501c09558$bfa07ac0$fcb0883e@muts.freeserve.co.uk> Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The advance will be quite difference. Look at the "1997 propane vehicle challenge" from SAE (SAE SP-1360) available from www.sae.org. for info on it. It will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about propane and conversions. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: phil@muts.freeserve.co.uk [mailto:phil@muts.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 5:03 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: advance curve > > > Does anyone know if is true that an engine burning propane requires more > ignition advance at low rpm and less advance at high rpm than > petrol? If so > why.. > > Thanks > Phillip Martin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 18:48:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA25044 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:48:00 -0800 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA25032; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:47:30 -0800 Received: from brucescompute ([216.201.10.40]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010213024729.EFQN10619.invictus@brucescompute>; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:47:29 -0500 Message-ID: <042a01c09567$5d4a62a0$32258fd1@brucescompute> From: "Bruce Plecan" To: , Subject: Cherry Semiconductors Group buy Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:47:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I managed to delete the info on the Cherry Injector driver buy, would someone involved send me the organizers info, please Bruce Another case of TV remote messin with me . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Feb 12 20:59:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA25779 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:59:13 -0800 Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA25775 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:59:07 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.244.69.38.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.244.69.38]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26898 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:58:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200122135236370@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:2:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The Unirom Looks like the animal to have but @ 6 Bills thats a lot of proms. maybe for the person that does a number of projects? has anyone tried the "less expensive" versions. like the EconoROM appears like it will fit the DIY bill. I am not so educated on this stuff so feel free to enlighten me. It appears that even though you cant edit on the fly as you can with the unirom. just shut down the motor, edit the bin (with editor for us non-hex kind of guys), dump it into the econo rom, download to the emulator, & fire the motor back up. this sound right or am I out to lunch. Unless I am missing something, it does not appear that you can write to the emulator with it running, so you would have to shut down the motor etc. has anyone run one of the econo roms (or any of the emulators for that matter)? I have a 7730 ($8D), which has the 256K prom so i would imagine that this would work. I don't recall ever knowing what the min speed requirement of the proms was, this leads me to ask is 45 nS going to be fast enough. the proms I just got have -15 on them & I think that means 150 nS (right?), if that is true then I would think 45 nS to be plenty fast. TIA Bob Wooten > [Original Message] > From: Walter Sherwin > To: > Date: 2/12/01 3:15:28 PM > Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator > > Yup...... > > http://www.tech-tools.com/romtools.htm > > http://www.dataman.com/ > > > Walt. > > > > > > Hi Walter, > > Gotta url for that???? > > -Carl > > > > > > > > Naw, I gave up trying to get my Dataman S4 to play with my '7060 box. > > Tried everything that their techie's suggested, but no cigar. Very > > disappointing as I've used the S4 with other MemCal boxes in the past, and > > at least one other guy that I know of on the left coast purports to have > > used his S4 with his '7060 with great success. Even sent my S4 to Florida > > for test/inspection, with NTF. Oh well, it needed a battery pack > > anyway......... > > > > I broke down and bought a "UNIROM UR08 - 512 - 90ns Real Time Memory > > Emulator Package" from Tech Tools, a little while back. Looked like an > > excellent candidate at the time. However, I have not yet gotten around to > > trying it. It should support instant on-the-fly changes. The GUI looks a > > bit primitive, but functional. > > > > Walt. > > > > > > > > > > > You still trying to get your S4 to hook up too ?? > > > > > > Lyndon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All *WE* need is a user friendly cheap emulator and we're there now. > > > > > With all the hacing, and good editors now, just getting away from > > having > > > > to > > > > > carry a burner around would about make this a perfect world, IMO > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're there now?........... > > > > > > > > What's the latest in terms of friendly & cost effective emulators? > Ones > > > > which can be programmed on-the-fly without having to shut down the > > engine? > > > > Ones with friendly front end GUI's? Any linked to editor packages? > > For > > > > use with 32K MemCals. I'd love to hear more. > > > > > > > > Walt. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 02:42:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA27875 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:42:50 -0800 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA27863 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:42:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cruzers.com [205.215.232.2] claimed to be blackie.cruzers.com Received: from cruzers.com (robbie-149.cruzers.com [209.165.194.149]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA20550 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:42:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A890FEB.5954D84D@cruzers.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:44:40 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: EGOR References: <63as0tgasn0o4bpq5u8cg5dsqe91usqq7u@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Robert Harris wrote: > > Stoic is determined primarily by the fuel and little else. The others vary > considerably from engine to engine, altitude, temperature etc. Both are > determined empirically from actually tuning the engine and optimizing the > results. In other words - they are not magic numbers. > > If you record the ego output at these two points, you have a nice means of > getting back to these points. The actual numbers are meaningless - as long as > they are repeatable and of usable scale. > > Precision is a fruitless anal exercise in futility. At either point you can > vary the mixture a few percent and the difference will be lost in statistical > noise. > > [...] > > Good enough self calibration for engine control and getting back to the best > power points after they are determined by other much more accurate means. The above ignores a useful ability of a wide band sensor. Lets say you have a new engine on a dyno. The engine enters a poorly calibrated range. The injectors are firing for 5 ms. Your wide band sensor says: "15.8:1 AFR". Your ECM can say: "Uh, oh, lets get the engine to stoich to keep from melting pistons. " The ECM does a bit of math (5 ms * 15.8 / 14.7), and starts firing the injectors for 5.37 ms. Ta-da, the ECM was able to go from lean to near stoich in the time of a single injection event. With an old bang-bang style sensor, the ECM did this: 5 ms. Uh, oh, lean. 5.04 ms. [10 or 20 ms later] Uh, oh, still lean. 5.08 ms. Still lean. 5.12 ms. 5.16 ms. 5.2 ms. 5.24 ms. 5.28 ms. 5.32 ms. 5.36 ms. 5.40 ms. Oops, too rich. 5.38 ms. 5.36 ms. 5.38 ms. Meanwhile, the engine was running lean for a quarter of a second or more. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 10:45:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA31753 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:45:15 -0800 Received: from mail45.fg.online.no (mail45-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.45]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA31748 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:45:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail45-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.45] claimed to be mail45.fg.online.no Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti01a04-0173.dialup.online.no [130.67.4.173]) by mail45.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28322 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:44:55 +0100 (MET) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:41:14 +0100 Message-ID: <01C095F4.ECDC6700.mwichstr@online.no> From: espen hilde To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:40:21 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft-program for e-post for Internett/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="NS_4551-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: Hi Espen, Thanks for your interest in our emulator. As a special offer to DIY-EFI members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT +shipping. This represents a saving of ?500 on the normal retail price. Best Regards Chris Smith RACELOGIC Ltd 6 Little Balmer Buckingham Ind.Pk. MK18 1TF TEL +44(1280) 823803 FAX +44(1280) 823595 chris@racelogic.co.uk www.racelogic.co.uk Any one interested? Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 12:28:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA32661 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:28:04 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA32657 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:27:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.96]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:08:35 -0700 Message-ID: <003d01c095fb$91419c60$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <01C095F4.ECDC6700.mwichstr@online.no> Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:27:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-IA5-Norwegian" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What's ?995 ?? 995 USD ?? Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: espen hilde To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:40 AM Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! > > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: > Hi Espen, > > Thanks for your interest in our emulator. As a special offer to DIY-EFI > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT +shipping. > This represents a saving of ?500 on the normal retail price. > > Best Regards > > Chris Smith > > > RACELOGIC Ltd > 6 Little Balmer > Buckingham Ind.Pk. > MK18 1TF > TEL +44(1280) 823803 FAX +44(1280) 823595 > chris@racelogic.co.uk www.racelogic.co.uk > > Any one interested? > Espen > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 12:51:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00432 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:51:30 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA00428 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:51:24 -0800 Received: from node141.ott.qnx.com (funnel2.qnx.com [209.226.137.120]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26912 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:52:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:52:55 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=UTF-8 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org pounds judging by the snail mail address Previously, you (Programmer) wrote: { What's ?995 ?? 995 USD ?? { { Lyndon. { { ----- Original Message ----- { From: espen hilde { To: { Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:40 AM { Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! { { { > { > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: { > Hi Espen, { > { > Thanks for your interest in our emulator. As a special offer to DIY-EFI { > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT { +shipping. { > This represents a saving of ?500 on the normal retail price. { > { > Best Regards { > { > Chris Smith { > { > { > RACELOGIC Ltd { > 6 Little Balmer { > Buckingham Ind.Pk. { > MK18 1TF { > TEL +44(1280) 823803 FAX +44(1280) 823595 { > chris@racelogic.co.uk www.racelogic.co.uk { > { > Any one interested? { > Espen { > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- { -- { > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { quotes) { > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { > { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 13:19:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA00643 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:19:16 -0800 Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA00639 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:19:09 -0800 Received: from pacbell ([63.196.112.239]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0G8P00BFIRRXT2@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:02:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:05:02 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! In-reply-to: To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id NAA00640 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? -Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Pat Ford Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:53 PM To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! pounds judging by the snail mail address Previously, you (Programmer) wrote: { What's ?995 ?? 995 USD ?? { { Lyndon. { { ----- Original Message ----- { From: espen hilde { To: { Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:40 AM { Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! { { { > { > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: { > Hi Espen, { > { > Thanks for your interest in our emulator. As a special offer to DIY-EFI { > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT { +shipping. { > This represents a saving of ?500 on the normal retail price. { > { > Best Regards { > { > Chris Smith { > { > { > RACELOGIC Ltd { > 6 Little Balmer { > Buckingham Ind.Pk. { > MK18 1TF { > TEL +44(1280) 823803 FAX +44(1280) 823595 { > chris@racelogic.co.uk www.racelogic.co.uk { > { > Any one interested? { > Espen { > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- { -- { > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { quotes) { > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { > { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 13:46:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA00871 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:46:29 -0800 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [209.226.137.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA00867 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:46:23 -0800 Received: from node141.ott.qnx.com (funnel2.qnx.com [209.226.137.120]) by qnx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16492 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:47:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:47:35 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: RE: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=UTF-8 X-Mailer: Voyager Email for QNX (vmail v2.02) Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Value Added Tax, like the gst here in Canada Previously, you (Carl Summers) wrote: { What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? { -Carl { { -----Original Message----- { From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On { Behalf Of Pat Ford { Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:53 PM { To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org { Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! { { { pounds judging by the snail mail address { { Previously, you (Programmer) wrote: { { What's ?995 ?? 995 USD ?? { { { { Lyndon. { { { { ----- Original Message ----- { { From: espen hilde { { To: { { Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:40 AM { { Subject: SV: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! { { { { { { > { { > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: { { > Hi Espen, { { > { { > Thanks for your interest in our emulator. As a special offer to DIY-EFI { { > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT { { +shipping. { { > This represents a saving of ?500 on the normal retail price. { { > { { > Best Regards { { > { { > Chris Smith { { > { { > { { > RACELOGIC Ltd { { > 6 Little Balmer { { > Buckingham Ind.Pk. { { > MK18 1TF { { > TEL +44(1280) 823803 FAX +44(1280) 823595 { { > chris@racelogic.co.uk www.racelogic.co.uk { { > { { > Any one interested? { { > Espen { { > { { > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- { { -- { { > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { { quotes) { { > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { { > { { { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { { { { -- { Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com { QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com { (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews { (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 13:51:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA00916 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:51:00 -0800 Received: from fw-austin.austin.arm.com (firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA00912 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:50:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host firewall-user@ns2.arm.com [208.202.62.114] claimed to be fw-austin.austin.arm.com Received: by fw-austin.austin.arm.com; id PAA06728; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:50:52 -0600 Received: from unknown(192.168.3.3) by fw-austin.austin.arm.com via smap (V5.0) id xma006726; Tue, 13 Feb 01 15:50:30 -0600 Received: from arm.com (auspc21 [192.168.3.121]) by aussun1.austin.arm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12875 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:50:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A89AB34.A5536068@arm.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:46:28 -0600 From: steve ravet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. --steve Carl Summers wrote: > > What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? > -Carl -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 14:50:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA01455 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:50:21 -0800 Received: from jxmls04.se.mediaone.net (jxmls04.se.mediaone.net [24.129.0.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA01439 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:48:59 -0800 Received: from server (pomew-1-65-34-40-53.pompano.net [65.34.40.53]) by jxmls04.se.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1DMgej09071 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:42:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001301c0960f$21f11f20$35282241@se.mediaone.net> From: "NickG" To: "DIY EFI List" Subject: injector on time calculation Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:48:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The ECU in my car uses injector on time per cylinder revolution (called Ti) as one of the axis for the lookup tables. I'm trying to determine how this calculation is done, and would like to run it through the list to get some feedback on my results. I'm certain that the following inputs are used in the calculation: air mass meter input (in kg/hr) RPM injector size From these 3 inputs, 2 can vary (air mass and RPM) and one is constant (injector size). I'm also assuming the following conditions: A/F ratio = 14.7 # of cyl = 6 inj. size per cyl = 35.25 lb/hr I'm trying to solve for Ti (in ms/rev/cyl), so the basic formula I've come up with is: Ti = [ (kg/hr) / (RPM X injsize X AFratio X numcyl) ] X k where k is a unit conversion factor converting kg/hr, RPM, and lb/hr to ms/rev and equals 132,000. Thus, Ti = [ (kg/hr) / (RPM X 35.25 X 14.7 X 6) ] X 132,000 Ti = [ (kg/hr) / RPM ] X 42.457 Does this sound reasonable? Am I missing something? Nick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 17:22:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA02903 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:22:04 -0800 Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA02898 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:21:58 -0800 Received: from home.com ([24.9.222.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010214012103.XHCQ22691.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:21:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A89DDA6.549C367E@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:21:42 -0500 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! References: <3A89AB34.A5536068@arm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I didn't think you had to pay VAT on items to be exported. Am I mistaken? Rob_O steve ravet wrote: > > 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT > is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US > dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. > > --steve > > Carl Summers wrote: > > > > What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? > > -Carl > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet@arm.com > ARM,Inc. > www.arm.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 17:45:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA03063 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:45:16 -0800 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA03059 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:45:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.119]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:25:49 -0700 Message-ID: <002f01c09627$e26f2680$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <3A89AB34.A5536068@arm.com> Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:45:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Gak--that's around $2630 here ...guess I'll keep spinnin' and burnin' Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve ravet To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! > 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT > is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US > dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. > > --steve > > Carl Summers wrote: > > > > What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? > > -Carl > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet@arm.com > ARM,Inc. > www.arm.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Feb 13 21:51:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA06285 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:51:06 -0800 Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA06279 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:50:58 -0800 Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.245.47.124.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.245.47.124]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA02311 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:50:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <412001231455436460@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.02.8 (Windows) From: "Bob Wooten" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:54:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'll, second that, makes the UniRom look cheap @ 8 Bills. I take it that no one has used any of the lower end models like the tech tools econo ROM? (http://www.tech-tools.com/romtools.htm) my apprehension is that i am going to buy a $200 POJ, & get every bit of what i payed for it, back out of it in frustration. not being extremely smart this way, really hurts about now, makes me wish i had payed more attention in class. no input????? BW > [Original Message] > From: steve ravet > To: > Date: 2/13/01 1:56:17 PM > Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! > > 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT > is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US > dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. > > --steve > > Carl Summers wrote: > > > > What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? > > -Carl > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet@arm.com > ARM,Inc. > www.arm.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy@earthlink.net --- www.r71camaro.homestead.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 14 02:08:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA08217 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:08:42 -0800 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA08212 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:08:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cruzers.com [205.215.232.2] claimed to be blackie.cruzers.com Received: from cruzers.com (robbie-161.cruzers.com [209.165.194.161]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12376 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:08:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A8A59C9.F3F99455@cruzers.com> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:11:40 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! References: <3A89AB34.A5536068@arm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org espen hilde wrote: > > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: > > As a special offer to DIY-EFI > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT +shipping. steve ravet wrote: > > 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT > is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US > dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. Strange. The UK's VAT is generally included in the price. If you go to a store, and an item is marked "1 pound", then it will cost you exactly 1 pound at the checkout (not 1 pound and some pence.) If you are a foreign tourist and buy an item that you take home, you can get a refund of the VAT amount. At least, this is how things were about five years ago. So, the emulator price should be 995 pounds - VAT + shipping. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 14 02:17:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA08274 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:17:31 -0800 Received: from popeye.madasafish.com ([212.38.173.23]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA08269 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:17:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [212.38.173.23] claimed to be popeye.madasafish.com Received: from studymain ([212.38.190.22]) by popeye.madasafish.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22192 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:17:18 GMT Message-ID: <007f01c0966e$e446fb80$0100a8c0@studymain> From: "Alastair Young" To: Subject: RE: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:14:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yes here in the UK VAT is rated at 17.5% but if the product is to be exported Vat is dropped . Still is expensive though at $1400 USD . They are very good emulators though ! Al Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:47:35 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Ford Subject: RE: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! Value Added Tax, like the gst here in Canada Previously, you (Carl Summers) wrote: { What is 995 + VAT??? Whatsa Vat? { -Carl { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Feb 14 03:30:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id DAA08631 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 03:30:51 -0800 Received: from guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (root@guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.224.93]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id DAA08626 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 03:30:33 -0800 Received: from dcs.warwick.ac.uk (fab@phlogiston [137.205.226.120]) by guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (8.11.1/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1EBUQt17861 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:30:26 GMT Message-ID: <3A8A6C08.B2508F10@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:29:12 +0000 From: Franc Buxton Organization: Computer Science, Warwick University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.38 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Friendly Emulator /racelogic groupe buy! References: <3A89AB34.A5536068@arm.com> <3A8A59C9.F3F99455@cruzers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@lists.diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ludis Langens wrote: > > espen hilde wrote: > > > > Hi ! I am forwarding the message I got from Racelogic: > > > > As a special offer to DIY-EFI > > members we will supply the basic 16bit emulator kit at ?995 + VAT +shipping. > > steve ravet wrote: > > > > 995 is likely to be Great Britain pounds since it's a UK company. VAT > > is the UK national sales tax, 17%. 1164 GBP total, or about $1750 in US > > dollars. Unless it's pretty whizzy I'd keep looking. > > Strange. The UK's VAT is generally included in the price. If you go to > a store, and an item is marked "1 pound", then it will cost you exactly > 1 pound at the checkout (not 1 pound and some pence.) If you are a > foreign tourist and buy an item that you take home, you can get a refund > of the VAT amount. At least, this is how things were about five years ago. > > So, the emulator price should be 995 pounds - VAT + shipping. > Quite often, suppliers quote their price to the trade _excluding_ VAT, as traders can often reclaim the tax anyway. I have seen and used the Racelogic emulator. It's OK, but not particularly user-friendly and