From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 2 17:40:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA31689 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:40:44 -0700 Received: from thunder.adam.com.au (thunder.adam.com.au [203.2.124.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA31685 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:40:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 16572 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 00:40:36 -0000 Received: from t1-138.adam.com.au (HELO ijweaver) (150.101.242.138) by thunder.adam.com.au with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 00:40:36 -0000 Message-ID: <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> From: "Ian Weaver" To: "DIY-EFI" References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:09:56 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 2 18:40:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA32064 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:40:25 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA32060 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:40:18 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.149]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010703014017.KEZV21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:40:17 -0400 Message-ID: <02fd01c10361$339999e0$950ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:40:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a plenum. Carb'd engines can have a plenum. Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having luck with plenums much larger then that. Bruce From: "Ian Weaver" Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 2 20:25:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA32684 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:25:57 -0700 Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA32680 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:25:50 -0700 Received: from j0w0q1 (pool0099.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [216.244.18.99]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18778 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:25:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bob Wooten" To: Subject: RE: ABS retrofit Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:25:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <3B3E2A86.F7D78E1D@cruzers.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I had a F150 towing special that had the rear only abs & they were much more a nuisance that they were worth. The abs kept warping the front rotors (how I don't know, but it did). I took it to the dealer 3 or 4 times & finally I just turned it off (removed the fuse) the down side to that is that you get the abs light on the dash, but 2 minutes to take the little plastic piece off the dash & 2 Milli seconds to smash the bulb into tiny bits & I was good to go:). If you are going to do it I would suggest a different avenue. I would save the $ & buy some massive rotors or do a disk conversion on the rear end. I guess that there are a number of people making custom brackets & using the new style F150 rear calipers on semi factory rear ends. BW -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Ludis Langens Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 12:38 PM To: Diy_efi Subject: ABS retrofit Is it reasonable to retrofit antilock brakes as part of an EFI conversion of a truck? The donor would be a 1989 F250, the recipient a 1973 F250. This particular system is real wheel only ABS. It has an ABS computer under the dash, some sort of brake line pressure modulator just after the proportioning valve, and a reluctor type pickup in the top of the differential (presumably sensing the ring gear teeth). After the retrofit and EFI conversion, the donor and recipient would both have the same engine, same wheelbase, similar weight rating, and possibly the same transmission. I believe the 89 has a Ford designed rear end. The 73 has a Dana 60. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 01:01:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA01230 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 01:01:55 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f165.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.165]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA01226 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 01:01:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f165.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.165] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 01:01:18 -0700 Received: from 130.203.161.174 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:01:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [130.203.161.174] From: "Camden Lindsay" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: TBI injectors Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 04:01:17 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 08:01:18.0186 (UTC) FILETIME=[56F37CA0:01C10396] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org you may be able to find a decent deal on www.car-part.com it's a search of a whole bunch of junkyards, using an exchange list as well... camden >From: TomQ >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >Subject: TBI injectors >Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:38:44 -0700 > >Anybody know of a inexpensive place to get Chevy TBI injectors? I would >like to try the 5.0L ones. Napa wants $120 and the couple of the over >priced junk yards ones in the SF bay area that I called are just about >that expensive too. > >-- >TomQ >SF,CA > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 02:43:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA01785 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:43:22 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f180.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.180]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA01781 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:43:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f180.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.180] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:42:43 -0700 Received: from 195.252.52.243 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:42:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.252.52.243] From: "peter bengtsson" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:42:43 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 09:42:43.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[822F43A0:01C103A4] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and smaller at lower. I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my engine would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? Peter >From: "Bruce" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? >Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:40:54 -0400 > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a >plenum. >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having >luck >with plenums much larger then that. >Bruce > >From: "Ian Weaver" >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > Ian > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 04:30:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA02196 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:30:37 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA02192 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:30:29 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.140]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010703113028.LGOH21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:30:28 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c103b3$a6fe5680$8c0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, It's the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. Bruce From: "peter bengtsson" Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > smaller at lower. > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my engine > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > Peter > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > >plenum. > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > >luck > >with plenums much larger then that. > >Bruce > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 04:53:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA02360 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:53:27 -0700 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA02356 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:53:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120] claimed to be albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net Received: from default (user200.net090.fl.sprint-hsd.net [209.26.246.200]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA22783 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005c01c103b6$b4309ae0$c8f61ad1@default> From: "Larry Heath" To: References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> <02fd01c10361$339999e0$950ac9d8@bruce> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:52:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yes larger than engine size plenums work well on larger engines, I don't know how this would work on smaller short stroke engines. I run an injected 565" alcohol engine that uses a plenum of aprox 1120 cuin which is obviously just about 2x engine size. It runs very hard on the top end, about 5 or 6 mph faster than what a car with a typical manifold would at the same ET. This is with runner lengths and areas sized for optimum torque production at much less that max hp rpm. I am of the opinion that the larger the plenum size, to a point, the better the pulse/resonant tuning is, i.e. the large plenum allows a bunch better reflection of the pulses and at the same time keeps crosstalk from cylinder to cylinder lower. It seems to work for me, anyway. Later Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce" To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a plenum. > Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having luck > with plenums much larger then that. > Bruce > > From: "Ian Weaver" > Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > Ian > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 05:32:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA02572 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:32:18 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f143.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.143]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA02568 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:32:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f143.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.143] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:31:41 -0700 Received: from 195.252.52.243 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:31:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.252.52.243] From: "peter bengtsson" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:31:41 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 12:31:41.0533 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CD1C8D0:01C103BC] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What`s an IR ? I`m sorry about my bad english. That peak definition i already know about. Is there however possible to design the plenum size to make the engines tourquepeak at a "specific" rpm? Peter >From: "Bruce" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 > > >All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, It's >the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. >The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. >Bruce > > > >From: "peter bengtsson" >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > > smaller at lower. > > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my >engine > > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > > Peter > > > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > > >plenum. > > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > > >luck > > >with plenums much larger then that. > > >Bruce > > > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > > Ian > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 05:58:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA02760 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:58:22 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA02756 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:58:13 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.140]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010703125812.LONU21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:58:12 -0400 Message-ID: <004801c103bf$e89e2640$8c0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:58:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "peter bengtsson" Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > What`s an IR ? >From first post, Individual runner > That peak definition i already know about. Is there however possible to > design the plenum size to make the engines tourquepeak at a "specific" rpm? Anything is possible (just about). Just a matter of cut and try if you have to go that route Bruce > > Peter > > > >From: "Bruce" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 > > > > > >All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, It's > >the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. > >The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. > >Bruce > > > > > > > >From: "peter bengtsson" > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > > > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > > > smaller at lower. > > > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my > >engine > > > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > > > Peter > > > > > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > > > >plenum. > > > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > > > >luck > > > >with plenums much larger then that. > > > >Bruce > > > > > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > > > Ian > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 06:35:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA03041 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:35:18 -0700 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA03037 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:35:10 -0700 From: bill.shurvinton@nokia.com Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f63DblG02295 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:37:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh12nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:35:08 +0300 Received: by esebh12nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:35:05 +0300 Message-ID: To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:34:50 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Try visiting www.sdsefi.com They have instructions how to build a plenum for a rotary, but no sums on best size. Bill -----Original Message----- From: ext peter bengtsson To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Sent: 7/3/01 1:31 PM Subject: Re: intake plenum size? What`s an IR ? I`m sorry about my bad english. That peak definition i already know about. Is there however possible to design the plenum size to make the engines tourquepeak at a "specific" rpm? Peter >From: "Bruce" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 > > >All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, It's >the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. >The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. >Bruce > > > >From: "peter bengtsson" >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > > smaller at lower. > > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my >engine > > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > > Peter > > > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > > >plenum. > > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > > >luck > > >with plenums much larger then that. > > >Bruce > > > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > > Ian > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ________________________________________________________________________ _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 19:25:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA08123 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:25:38 -0700 Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA08119 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:25:11 -0700 Received: from cr938302ac ([24.42.104.73]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010704022458.UPFZ22847.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@cr938302ac> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:24:58 -0700 Message-ID: <006a01c10430$95ffdfc0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> From: "Chris Capowski" To: References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:25:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org It is more complicated than that. The number of cylinders you have makes a huge difference as well. Three cylinder engines tend to have (or they should at least) the largest plenum/engine size ratio. Reversion is bad... Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Weaver" > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 20:36:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA08521 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:36:59 -0700 Received: from mail1.cableone.net (mail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.51]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA08517 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:36:53 -0700 Received: from cableone.net ([24.116.106.80]) by mail1.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:36:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3B428FB6.35478881@cableone.net> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 22:38:30 -0500 From: Roger Heflin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: intake plenum size & reversion References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> <006a01c10430$95ffdfc0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Chris Capowski wrote: > > It is more complicated than that. The number of cylinders you have makes a > huge difference as well. Three cylinder engines tend to have (or they > should at least) the largest plenum/engine size ratio. Reversion is bad... > > Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski What exactly is reversion? The situation I have is the motor is a chevy V8 small block 6.6l engine, with what someone else measured to be a 3L intake, with 3-4" runners. This motor is a late model chevy LT1 motor, and the intake has IAC passages built into it (basically a separate plenum/runner setup going to each cylinders runner, and this air is separately controlled with a idle air hole-much like you would drill in a carbed motor, and a iac motor setup). At idle (without using the special IAC passages in the intake, or without using them enough) the motor runs consistantly different side to side (one side runs with say a blm of 110 or so and the other side run 160, basically -15% fuel on one side, and +25% on the other side), as the throttle increases things even out. The above was determined by averaging a large number of samples (10-15,000). Now increasing air routing into the IAC passages evens out the above numbers at low throttle and has minimal affect at higher throttles (it has some, but in areas the engine does not often run, and the differences are much less significant). When this is done the TB blades are adjusted down such that the total air in the motor should be about the same, and the idle is about the same speed. Several others have noticed exactly this same behavior and that upping the air into the IAC passages fixes the inconsistancy. Would reversion exhibit this sort of behavior, and would the IAC passage setup be a way of fixing the part throttle issues? Roger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 21:18:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA08990 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:18:47 -0700 Received: from femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.87]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA08983 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:18:35 -0700 Received: from cc693406a ([65.11.182.46]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010704040636.XJXU16367.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc693406a> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: <019c01c1043e$edcb6d60$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> From: "David Hunt" To: References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:08:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Consider that on a larger (cylinder number) engine the runners to the other cylinders perform as a plenum. Oh, sure, there is action due to the last valve that closed, but in general the other runners perform as a plenum. So, lets see, If the head has 330cc in the intake runner, the intake runner has 600cc and there are 7 other runners, then a small block Chevy has about 4,200 cc or 252 cu. in. of plenum in the other runners. Then there is another liter (guess?) just below the carburetor. So, on the venerable small block Chevy there is a plenum just about the same size as the displacement.. Also, following Detroit's lead, as the performance goes up, probably due to the closing rate of the intake valve, the plenum gets larger. Don't idle? increase the plenum. Look at the case of individual runner fuel injection, like the old Hilbourn. Infinite plenum! I model the plenum (capacitor) as converting the pulsing flow of the intakes (pulsed inductors) into a smooth flow for the carburetor. This minimizes the average pressure drop across the carburetor and increases the flow. dh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clare Snyder" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 6:04 PM Subject: intake plenum size? > Just a quick question for you fellows - not fuel INJECTION related - > There is an optimal "plenum" volume for an intake system. How is it determined? > Can't remember if it is the volume of one cyl, or twice the volume? Something > like that. > Any formula, calculator, or rule of thum - please e-mail me and/or post to the > group > This is for a carbureted system. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 21:18:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA08989 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:18:47 -0700 Received: from femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.87]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA08981 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:18:35 -0700 Received: from cc693406a ([65.11.182.46]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010704040056.XFJC16367.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc693406a> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:00:56 -0700 Message-ID: <019401c1043e$22c05cc0$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> From: "David Hunt" To: References: <002501c103b3$a6fe5680$8c0ac9d8@bruce> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:02:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bruce, I think you can say that about any engine, not just wankels and not just internal combustion and not just.... dh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:31 AM Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, It's > the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. > The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. > Bruce > > > > From: "peter bengtsson" > Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > > smaller at lower. > > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my engine > > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > > Peter > > > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > > >plenum. > > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > > >luck > > >with plenums much larger then that. > > >Bruce > > > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > > Ian > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 21:42:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA09463 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:42:59 -0700 Received: from localhost.localdomain (c1607941-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.12.63.203]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA09459 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:42:52 -0700 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f644f9D18901 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:41:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:41:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@localhost.localdomain To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: intake plenum size & reversion In-Reply-To: <3B428FB6.35478881@cableone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Reversion is a when, during the overlap phase, the intake will be blown all the way back through the plenum past the throttle. In extreme cases (small plenum, lots of overlap, short headers), the exhaust pulse may even come back through. The plenum is NOT the primary cause of reversion, the cam timing is, followed by the exhaust design. Triples may normally have an exhaust setup that allows lots of reversion in a high overlap design, I don't know. However, in a low overlap engine, you're not going to see a lot of reversion no matter how many cylinders you have. A big plenum is not universally good, since the bigger it is, the worse your throttle response will be, since the throttled volume will be larger. Think about it, the only thing you have direct control over here is the throttle angle, and the delay between the time you change the throttle setting and the time the engine "sees" the change is going to be directly correlated to the volume of air between the throttle and the intake valves. You want to make the plenum as small as possible for good throttle response. Many full race engines use a throttle per cylinder with a tiny throttled volume and no plenum at all. Tuning these engines is difficult, since MAP values are unreliable. You can use a plenum upstream of these throttles with a MAF, but then you're back to the response problem again (delay before changes in demand by the engine are "seen" by the MAF) as the plenum grows. You can also use a small plenum just for the MAP sensor, to smooth out the intake pulses, again at the expense of responsiveness. About the only disadvantage I can think of to a small plenum is intake pulses will mess up MAP measurements, and how big it needs to be to keep things sufficiently smooth is going to depend on a lot of variables, cylinder size, engine speed, and cam overlap likely to be three of them. FWIW, my 2.5L V6 has a plenum (OEM) that's a good deal smaller than 2.5L. 1L, maybe. My 1.8L four, however, has a much larger plenum that's probably close to the 2L. james montebello On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Roger Heflin wrote: > Chris Capowski wrote: > > > > It is more complicated than that. The number of cylinders you have makes a > > huge difference as well. Three cylinder engines tend to have (or they > > should at least) the largest plenum/engine size ratio. Reversion is bad... > > > > Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski > > What exactly is reversion? > > The situation I have is the motor is a chevy V8 small block 6.6l engine, with > what someone else measured to be a 3L intake, with 3-4" runners. This motor > is a late model chevy LT1 motor, and the intake has IAC passages built > into it (basically a separate plenum/runner setup going to each cylinders > runner, and this air is separately controlled with a idle air hole-much like > you would drill in a carbed motor, and a iac motor setup). > > At idle (without using the special IAC passages in the intake, or without > using them enough) the motor runs consistantly different side to side > (one side runs with say a blm of 110 or so and the other side run 160, > basically -15% fuel on one side, and +25% on the other side), as the > throttle increases things even out. The above was determined by averaging > a large number of samples (10-15,000). > > Now increasing air routing into the IAC passages evens out the above numbers > at low throttle and has minimal affect at higher throttles (it has some, > but in areas the engine does not often run, and the differences are much > less significant). When this is done the TB blades are adjusted down > such that the total air in the motor should be about the same, and the > idle is about the same speed. > > Several others have noticed exactly this same behavior and that upping > the air into the IAC passages fixes the inconsistancy. > > Would reversion exhibit this sort of behavior, and would the IAC passage > setup be a way of fixing the part throttle issues? > > Roger > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 22:04:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA09661 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:04:38 -0700 Received: from gateway-gw.pictel.com (gateway-gw.pictel.com [140.242.1.1]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA09656 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:04:31 -0700 From: Andy_Bellezza@pictel.com Received: from SMTPMail.PicTel.com (hqsmtpmail.pictel.com [140.242.100.76]) by gateway-gw.pictel.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27141 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Andy Bellezza/PicTel is out of the office. To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:00:39 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SMTPMail/PicTel(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 07/04/2001 01:00:44 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I will be out of the office starting 07/04/2001 and will not return until 07/09/2001. I will respond to your message when I return. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 22:54:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA09973 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:54:08 -0700 Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA09967 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:54:01 -0700 Received: from electron ([24.3.251.94]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010704055401.MGIR18309.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@electron> for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:54:01 -0700 Message-ID: <019201c1044e$f23f9d20$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> From: "Jeff Bromberger" To: References: Subject: converting stock fuel tank Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:02:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org this has been touched on a bit before, but i wanted to query you guys before i actually do any mods... i've got a '94 Camaro with a completely stock tank... i've got a weldon 2015 pump with a -12 inlet... the muffler on this car mounts right below the fuel tank so there isn't a lot of room for any kind of drop down sump... apparently inside of the tank there is a plastic baffle/sump... also, the factory tank seems to be angled down towards the back (as if the whole tank was a huge sump) i'll have it out of the car tomorrow to know for sure... here is my question: what is best in terms of keeping the pump constantly fed with fuel: welding a -12 fitting to the bottom of the tank (directly below this plastic baffle/sump thingy) or running a pickup tube in through the top of the tank and having it end in that sump area... in my mind (doesn't mean much in this context) there's no difference, but people seem to have reasons for doing it one way vs. the other... thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 3 23:19:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA10185 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:19:44 -0700 Received: from w3eax.umd.edu (blah@w3eax.umd.edu [128.8.198.73]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA10179 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:19:37 -0700 Received: (from dan@localhost) by w3eax.umd.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f646JU709205 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:19:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:19:30 -0400 From: Dan Message-Id: <200107040619.f646JU709205@w3eax.umd.edu> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I recently got two oxygen sensors from someone claiming they were off a Honda Civic (although he didn't know for sure what type). I'm trying to determine if these are the wideband oxygen sensors as they aren't what I was expecting. The sensor barrel is approximately 2.5" long and perhaps 1.2 cm diameter (approximately). The hex bolt has "NTK" and "7AH" (I think) stamped on it. The the sensor element is approximately an inch long and 1 cm in diameter (not including the threads). There are five wires coming off the sensor (red, yellow, orange, white and red). The connector goes through what I can only describe as an extender cable, and then terminates into two connectors. One connector has red and black, the other has yellow, orange, and white. I saw on some website that the heater was orange and yellow, and the white and black was the pump cell. I checked the resistance, and orange/yellow resistance is quite low (<5 ohms), and the white/black one is somewhat higher, but not too much. The red/black pair (should be the sensor) measured infinite resistance (while cold of course). The wiring sure sounds like the wideband sensor, but the sensor itself doesn't sound quite right, and there is no cal-resistor in the harness that I can see. Any comments as to whether these are (or are not) the wideband sensors? dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 01:07:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA10629 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:07:40 -0700 Received: from pluto.senet.com.au (pluto.senet.com.au [203.56.239.150]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA10622 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:07:31 -0700 Received: from injec.com (c26-p112.senet.com.au [203.152.233.113]) by pluto.senet.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6488rE26141 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:38:53 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from Phil@injec.com) Message-ID: <3B43B70A.99653D60@injec.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 17:38:34 -0700 From: Phil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: TBI injectors References: <3B40B1A4.DD1EE75C@tomquinn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi All, I have approx 25 of these instock including connectors with flying leads (approx 25cm long) We want $120 each only ours are Australian $'s so it will cost you about half. Phil TomQ wrote: > Anybody know of a inexpensive place to get Chevy TBI injectors? I would > like to try the 5.0L ones. Napa wants $120 and the couple of the over > priced junk yards ones in the SF bay area that I called are just about > that expensive too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 05:15:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA11554 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:15:50 -0700 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.74]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA11548 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:15:43 -0700 From: jimlinder@juno.com Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"au8CvI48gbiBj3j6k5USlRVFP2AmvmcAYxgU6HOTNH27f9X2Y0yv5g=="> Received: (from jimlinder@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F9HLQKDK; Wed, 04 Jul 2001 08:15:23 EDT To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:12:53 -0500 Subject: tbi injectors Message-ID: <20010704.072009.-515753.1.jimlinder@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Linder technical services offers reconditioned tbi injectors for $ 24.95 each exchange with new warranty. Call them at 1-888-809-3835 toll free or look them up at www.lindertech.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 06:32:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA11841 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:32:24 -0700 Received: from mail7.triad.rr.com (mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA11837 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:32:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54] claimed to be mail7.triad.rr.com Received: from markrile ([24.163.29.21]) by mail7.triad.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:32:16 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c1048d$0cf57fc0$151da318@triad.rr.com> From: "Mark S. Riley" To: References: <200107040619.f646JU709205@w3eax.umd.edu> Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:27:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Looking at the one I have from NAPA, OS-791, it has stamped on the body approximately 1/4" down from the wiring juncture, the letters "L1H1". Next row has "NTK JAPAN" with "OYO2" stamped on one flat of the nut face. There are 5 wires but there are seven pins in the plug. The cal resistor is across the two pins with no wiring. With the offset directional guide for plug orentation on the top, the wiring, top row, left to right is blank hole, red, white, black. Second row again from the left, orange, yellow, blank block where the cal resistor is located. Hope yours is right but it sounds like you are missing the wiring for the cal resistor. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 2:19 AM Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor > > I recently got two oxygen sensors from someone claiming they were off > a Honda Civic (although he didn't know for sure what type). I'm > trying to determine if these are the wideband oxygen sensors as they > aren't what I was expecting. > > The sensor barrel is approximately 2.5" long and perhaps 1.2 cm diameter > (approximately). The hex bolt has "NTK" and "7AH" (I think) stamped > on it. The the sensor element is approximately an inch long and 1 cm > in diameter (not including the threads). There are five wires coming > off the sensor (red, yellow, orange, white and red). The connector > goes through what I can only describe as an extender cable, and then > terminates into two connectors. One connector has red and black, the > other has yellow, orange, and white. > > I saw on some website that the heater was orange and yellow, and the > white and black was the pump cell. I checked the resistance, and > orange/yellow resistance is quite low (<5 ohms), and the white/black > one is somewhat higher, but not too much. The red/black pair (should > be the sensor) measured infinite resistance (while cold of course). The > wiring sure sounds like the wideband sensor, but the sensor itself > doesn't sound quite right, and there is no cal-resistor in the harness > that I can see. > > Any comments as to whether these are (or are not) the wideband sensors? > > dan > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 06:36:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA11907 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:36:19 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA11902 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:36:11 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.224]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010704133610.PGCF21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:36:10 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01c1048e$6387dd00$e00ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <002501c103b3$a6fe5680$8c0ac9d8@bruce> <019401c1043e$22c05cc0$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:36:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yep, but was just responding to the original guestion Bruce From: "David Hunt" Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > Bruce, > I think you can say that about any engine, not just wankels and not just > internal combustion and not just.... > dh > From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > All the hotrod rotaries I've ever seen have used a IR for manifolding, > It's > > the best set up there is and easy to apply to a rotary. > > The peak rpm of a rotary is defined by the depth of your wallet. > > Bruce > > From: "peter bengtsson" > > Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > Is there anyone with any experince from wankel engines? > > > I`ve heard that bigger plenuns makes the engin peak at higher rpm`s and > > > smaller at lower. > > > I`ve got an mazda 12a engine (1.2liters), any ideas in what rpm my > engine > > > would peak with a 1.2 liter plenum? > > > Peter > > > >From: "Bruce" nacelp@bright.net > > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > More then one cylinder, and not Individual Runners, you'll have a > > > >plenum. > > > >Carb'd engines can have a plenum. > > > > Hi performance engines about follow that, thou some folks are having > > > >luck > > > >with plenums much larger then that. > > > >Bruce > > > > > > > >From: "Ian Weaver" > > > >Subject: Re: intake plenum size? > > > > > The volume of a plenum chamber is normally the same as engine volume > > > > > ie: 3lt engine = 3lt chamber. > > > > > Plenum chambers are normally associatedwith injected engines. > > > > > Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 07:12:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA12175 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:12:44 -0700 Received: from thunder.adam.com.au (thunder.adam.com.au [203.2.124.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id HAA12171 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:12:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 91489 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2001 14:12:29 -0000 Received: from t2-220.adam.com.au (HELO ijweaver) (150.101.241.220) by thunder.adam.com.au with SMTP; 4 Jul 2001 14:12:29 -0000 Message-ID: <001b01c10493$a31a54c0$dcf16596@adam.com.au> From: "Ian Weaver" To: Subject: Nissan`s Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:43:39 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Does anyone know what type of computer the Nissan 180sx Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 07:58:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA12447 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:58:26 -0700 Received: from eid01.eidnet.org ([206.191.105.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA12443 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:58:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [206.191.105.11] claimed to be eid01.eidnet.org Received: from oemcomputer ([206.191.105.83]) by eid01.eidnet.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59363U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:54:03 -0600 Message-ID: <005a01c10499$c4198a00$a4d1fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Programmer" To: References: <20010704.072009.-515753.1.jimlinder@juno.com> Subject: Re: tbi injectors Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:58:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hey Jim, Is there a core charge ?? Lyndon. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:12 AM Subject: tbi injectors > Linder technical services offers reconditioned tbi injectors for $ 24.95 > each exchange with new warranty. Call them at 1-888-809-3835 toll free or > look them up at www.lindertech.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 09:23:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA13107 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:23:05 -0700 Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA13103 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:22:59 -0700 From: Vanirv6@aol.com Received: from Vanirv6@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id k.122.132c0cd (4000) for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <122.132c0cd.28749cbf@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:22:23 EDT Subject: Injector flowbench? To: DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org All, I was curious if anyone on this list has constructed the injector flowbench shown in the "Performance Engineering" articles archived on the DIY-EFI site? Thanks! Sven Pruett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 09:34:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA13210 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:34:03 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA13206 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:33:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (unverified [209.172.23.17]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:33:51 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010704102055.006d98d0@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:20:55 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: DIY flowbench? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or lands in my Sy engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. Was thinking of a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare manifold & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer or a MAP sensor; idea is to equalize flow between runers. Comments? Thanks - Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 11:22:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA13729 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:22:22 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA13725 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:22:16 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.224]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010704182214.QJSN21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:22:14 -0400 Message-ID: <010601c104b6$5a87e920$e00ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20010704102055.006d98d0@smtp.cybersol.com> Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:22:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Are you going to a full on race truck?. For a street ride your making a real project out of things, IMO. What kills most engines is detonation, so why not concentrate on that?. Get the heads off and smooth out the combustion chambers, for a majority of the work a 3/8" ball stone will work fine. Then use some smaller ones for around the valve seats, and a small radius where the chamber meets the flat surface of the head. Then just clean out the chunks around the valve pocket, generate some smooth radiuses, without removing any more metal then needed. If you want to reduce the surface area of the exhaust ports then smooth them out (min heat transfer to the head itself). If you must do the port to gasket thing then leave the head side of the operation a wee bit larger then the corresponding intake side, so there is a small step there. The above is what works for me. Populat Hot Rodding had a couple articles a few years ago on DIY a flow bench, at one time someone had a URl, for a scanned copy of the article Bruce From: "Barry Tisdale" Subject: DIY flowbench? > Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or lands in my Sy > engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. Was thinking of > a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare manifold > & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer or a MAP sensor; > idea is to equalize flow between runers. > Comments? > Thanks - Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 11:35:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA13817 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:35:15 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA13813 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:35:06 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.224]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010704183505.QKNP21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:35:05 -0400 Message-ID: <013e01c104b8$259e27e0$e00ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: intake plenum size? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:35:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Strikes me as more of a "How to" make an intake for your rotary so you can use our ECM. Bruce From: Subject: RE: intake plenum size? > Try visiting www.sdsefi.com They have instructions how to build a plenum > for a rotary, but no sums on best size. > Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 17:21:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA14921 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:21:50 -0700 Received: from smtp1.home.se (smtp1.home.se [195.66.35.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA14917 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:21:42 -0700 Received: from jurg2kpro [212.75.66.30] by smtp1.home.se with Novonyx SMTP Server $Revision: 2.74 $; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 02:18:19 +0200 (ECTD) From: =?us-ascii?Q?Jorgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:26:58 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010704102055.006d98d0@smtp.cybersol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, Are you still running the stock turbo, exhaust manifold and downpipe? Have you removed the catalythic converter? Now we schedule a piston and rod swap on all trucks that show up with a stock turbo and no cat, the wastegate has a hard time controlling the boost pressure whithout additional backpressure of the cat. We have done a few trucks that has had this problem, we have heard of a few more over here. Nowdays the leakdown test is done mostly for appearance, the result is always the same... The trw(2442? I'll have to check my notes to be sure.) pistons work great in these trucks, we also install a set of Eagle H-beam rods at the same time. The stock rods and ring lands has often failed at the same time anyway. Not one rod or piston has failed since we started using this combo. The smothing of the combustion chamber that Bruce mentioned is probably a good idea, but WE don't do that on these engines. Detonation is usually not a problem for us. We recommend going for ported Vortec heads with a ported intake after the truck has new headers, turbo and exhaust. Of course a hotter cam is installed at the same time as the rods and pistons are changed. When the Vortec heads are installed an other cam is installed too, a turbo upgrade is often needed too. We don't install new heads until we have aftermarket engine management installed, it is probably doable but someone has to pay for the time. Jorgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 18:06:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA15140 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:06:13 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA15136; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:06:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00172; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:17:54 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B43BE23.3129895F@techedge.com.au> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:08:51 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@diy-efi.org, diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Delco 27474 DSNEF info? References: <3.0.32.20010704014724.008b0c20@pop3.liii.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'm looking at a couple of GM ECMs (PCB ID=168509 and 200727 - these two PCBs may be present in many different GM ECM/PCMs). They both have 27474 ICs that have been described as Digital Signal to Noise Enhancement Filters and are briefly described here: http://www.iseebank.com/catalogue_data/delphi_microsystems/Product%20Technologies.htm http://www.delphiauto.com/pdf/delcopdfs/DSNEF.pdf and apparently in US Patent 5,594,649 at: http://swpat.ffii.org/vreji/pikta/txt/ep/0718/611/abstract.html which makes reference to a Harris (now Intersil) chip - perhaps the HIP 9010 described at: http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn3/fn3601/ I'm interested in sharing any knowledge anyone has of the 27474 chips (sorry in advance for the cross posting). Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 19:45:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA15656 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:45:11 -0700 Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA15647 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:44:58 -0700 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.e2.1713aac4 (25305) for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:44:21 EDT Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or lands in my Sy > engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. Was thinking of > a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare manifold > & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer or a MAP sensor; > idea is to equalize flow between runers. Hi Barry, This may / may-not apply, but I just had a syclone 4.3 flash back. When I tore my engine down for a re-ring at 40k miles. I noticed that the 2 cylinders with the non-siamesed intake ports had more evidence of heat than the other 4 did. The exhaust valves all had some deposits, but the ones on the cylinders in question had much harder deposits, which took much more work to remove. The syclone manifold is like a shorty tunnel ram, except for the "hole-in-the-wall" in between two ports on each head, which I believe disrupted flow to 4 of the 6 cylinders in the engine. The 2 cylinders with a "complete" intake port flow a little more air, but still use the same injector as the bogus ports. (theory) I believe the lean cylinders were 1 & 6, which would coincide with your results. Now, after all of that, do your newer heads have the recessed wall between the siamesed ports as the original syclone heads did? I used Moroso racer poxie to build up the divider so that it resemble a typical SBC port. Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 20:13:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA15847 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:13:04 -0700 Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA15837 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:12:54 -0700 Received: from c157627a ([24.11.247.148]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705031247.EFYJ23608.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c157627a>; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:12:47 -0700 From: "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" To: , Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:32:45 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c10500$cdbf74e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200107040800.BAA10529@hektor.valesh.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Dan, The Honda sensor specified for the DIY-WB project terminates into a single multi-pin connector body. It is Honda P/N 36531-P07-003. This crosses to NAPA P/N OS791 (where I bought mine for $135). You can see this sensor at the FJO site ( http://fjoinc.com/automotive/ ). The connector includes a cal resistor. This sounds like a different sensor, although the fact that it is 5 wire is promising. Remember, the sensor for the DIY-WB is for the Honda Civic 1.5 L VTec engine. There are plenty of non-VTec Civics out there. Good luck, Glenn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:19:30 -0400 From: Dan Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor I recently got two oxygen sensors from someone claiming they were off a Honda Civic (although he didn't know for sure what type). I'm trying to determine if these are the wideband oxygen sensors as they aren't what I was expecting. The sensor barrel is approximately 2.5" long and perhaps 1.2 cm diameter (approximately). The hex bolt has "NTK" and "7AH" (I think) stamped on it. The the sensor element is approximately an inch long and 1 cm in diameter (not including the threads). There are five wires coming off the sensor (red, yellow, orange, white and red). The connector goes through what I can only describe as an extender cable, and then terminates into two connectors. One connector has red and black, the other has yellow, orange, and white. I saw on some website that the heater was orange and yellow, and the white and black was the pump cell. I checked the resistance, and orange/yellow resistance is quite low (<5 ohms), and the white/black one is somewhat higher, but not too much. The red/black pair (should be the sensor) measured infinite resistance (while cold of course). The wiring sure sounds like the wideband sensor, but the sensor itself doesn't sound quite right, and there is no cal-resistor in the harness that I can see. Any comments as to whether these are (or are not) the wideband sensors? dan A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 20:13:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA15849 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:13:10 -0700 Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA15841 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:12:59 -0700 Received: from c157627a ([24.11.247.148]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705031247.EFYJ23608.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c157627a>; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:12:47 -0700 From: "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" To: , Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:32:45 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c10500$cdbf74e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200107040800.BAA10529@hektor.valesh.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Dan, The Honda sensor specified for the DIY-WB project terminates into a single multi-pin connector body. It is Honda P/N 36531-P07-003. This crosses to NAPA P/N OS791 (where I bought mine for $135). You can see this sensor at the FJO site ( http://fjoinc.com/automotive/ ). The connector includes a cal resistor. This sounds like a different sensor, although the fact that it is 5 wire is promising. Remember, the sensor for the DIY-WB is for the Honda Civic 1.5 L VTec engine. There are plenty of non-VTec Civics out there. Good luck, Glenn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:19:30 -0400 From: Dan Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor I recently got two oxygen sensors from someone claiming they were off a Honda Civic (although he didn't know for sure what type). I'm trying to determine if these are the wideband oxygen sensors as they aren't what I was expecting. The sensor barrel is approximately 2.5" long and perhaps 1.2 cm diameter (approximately). The hex bolt has "NTK" and "7AH" (I think) stamped on it. The the sensor element is approximately an inch long and 1 cm in diameter (not including the threads). There are five wires coming off the sensor (red, yellow, orange, white and red). The connector goes through what I can only describe as an extender cable, and then terminates into two connectors. One connector has red and black, the other has yellow, orange, and white. I saw on some website that the heater was orange and yellow, and the white and black was the pump cell. I checked the resistance, and orange/yellow resistance is quite low (<5 ohms), and the white/black one is somewhat higher, but not too much. The red/black pair (should be the sensor) measured infinite resistance (while cold of course). The wiring sure sounds like the wideband sensor, but the sensor itself doesn't sound quite right, and there is no cal-resistor in the harness that I can see. Any comments as to whether these are (or are not) the wideband sensors? dan A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 4 22:34:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA16538 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:34:09 -0700 Received: from chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com (cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA16534 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:34:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21] claimed to be chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com X-Server-Uuid: 26fe3e76-19dd-11d3-be09-0008c7b1f151 Message-ID: <5AB456BD8DF8D211815100805F1596BB045AA104@chevron.com> From: "Wilkie, Johnson (WLKJ)" To: "'DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org'" Subject: BOSCH ECM PROGRAMMING Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:31:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-WSS-ID: 175D23A2438078-01-02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I am pretty new to the efi world. I need direction on what I need to get my laptop to communicate with BOSCH ECM. ( P/N: 0261 200 173). Where can I get information on programming the ECM? WJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 06:07:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA17914 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 06:07:20 -0700 Received: from w3eax.umd.edu (blah@w3eax.umd.edu [128.8.198.73]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA17910 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 06:07:08 -0700 Received: (from dan@localhost) by w3eax.umd.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f65D6xQ12931 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:06:59 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:06:59 -0400 From: Dan Message-Id: <200107051306.f65D6xQ12931@w3eax.umd.edu> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I realize that only the Civic VX has the correct sensor, and all other Civics don't. The sensor I have terminates into two connectors, a three pin and a two pin. The sensor does look similar to the one pictured at FJO-Enterprises. There is the same mid-connector (in fact two of them), and then it goes to the two connectors and a bracket. The website claims the hex size is 22mm and the thread size is 18x1.5mm. My sensor seems to be smaller than that. I'm not sure about either size, but the hex nut is clearly smaller than my 22mm O2 wrench socket. I guess my real question is, is it possible that I could have a WB O2 sensor with a smaller hex nut and two connectors instead of the standard stuff. Are there any 5-wire NTK sensors which aren't wideband? If there aren't, it pretty much answers whether this is wideband or not. dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 07:44:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA20795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:44:06 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA20773 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:43:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (unverified [209.172.23.8]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:43:48 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010705102706.006cb22c@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:27:06 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor In-Reply-To: <000b01c10500$cdbf74e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> References: <200107040800.BAA10529@hektor.valesh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The sensor is still available @ the "old" price - $117 - bought mine a couple of months back, but the price is unchanges, I just checked. www.thepartsbin.com 92-95 Honda Civic, P/N 36531-P07-003 Bosch # 13246 Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 07:44:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA20797 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:44:10 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA20788 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:43:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (unverified [209.172.23.8]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:43:51 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010705104008.006cb22c@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:40:08 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In answer to several responses - The heads are 1996 Vortecs, they *do* have the proper dividers between the adjacent cylinders that seal against the intake gasket. These heads were completely cleaned up (esp. combustion chamber) prior to install, no real port work other than matching & polishing. Didn't remove any major metal other than the valve guide protrusion into the valve pocket - smoothed & blended there. The turbo is TE60 compressor on a TD06 center section, 14cm turbine housing, exhaust sys is 3" straight back, no cat, hi flow muff. New block going in has JE pistons, Eagle H beams, etc - the usual goodies. Per Lew P, the SyTy manifold was stopped short of full development due to $$ constraints, the engineers knew @ the time there was a defect - the prototype is what they went with. Just wanted to know if there's any improvement on a DIY basis so's to equalize the flow amongst the cylinders better. Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 07:44:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA20796 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:44:09 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA20785 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:43:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (unverified [209.172.23.8]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:43:49 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010705102937.006cb22c@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:29:37 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Injector flowbench? In-Reply-To: <122.132c0cd.28749cbf@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I wasn't aware of that reference when I put one together a couple of years back. Made it out of empty hand propane torch cylinder, various pipe fittings, valves, etc. Measured pulses supplied by 555 timer driving a relay. Pix available - pretty crude deal, sorta Flintstone-ish, but did the job for me. Barry At 12:22 PM 7/4/01 EDT, you wrote: >All, > >I was curious if anyone on this list has constructed the injector flowbench >shown in the "Performance Engineering" articles archived on the DIY-EFI site? > >Thanks! > >Sven Pruett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 11:36:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA27207 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:36:29 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA27203 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:36:22 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.41.140]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010705183614.TPBP21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:36:14 -0400 Message-ID: <00af01c10581$6019ace0$8c29c9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <200107051306.f65D6xQ12931@w3eax.umd.edu> Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:36:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Dan" Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) >Are there any 5-wire NTK sensors which aren't wideband? Yes, and there are 7 wire ones that are not WB. Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 11:42:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA27256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:42:32 -0700 Received: from mx.danger.com (wall.danger.com [63.203.215.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA27252 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:42:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host wall.danger.com [63.203.215.2] claimed to be mx.danger.com Received: (qmail 36530 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2001 18:41:10 -0000 Received: from dhcp-10-0-0-103.danger.com (HELO tomquinn.com) (10.0.0.103) by mx.danger.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2001 18:41:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3B44B52E.B9861306@tomquinn.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:42:54 -0700 From: TomQ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Data collection system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Gang I am presently using the handheld EZlink Automotive Diagnostic Meter by Auto Xray to scan my GM TBI system (747 chip). It has performed well up to now but the snap shot approach to data collection is getting tiresome. Is there a system that is not to expensive, runs on a laptop, and can take a whole mess of data readings while I drive around. I would like to see how the numbers look as I run the throttle up and down and as the motor warms up. -- TomQ SF,CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 13:30:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA27851 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:30:28 -0700 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA27847 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:30:18 -0700 Received: from earthlink.net ([38.38.168.50]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22865; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B44CE6C.DD41944F@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:30:37 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Organization: B. A. Bowling X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? References: <200107050800.BAA17043@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Since you bring up the subject... I have been working with Al Grippo on a DIY-oriented Injector Flowbench setup to test Electronic Fuel Injectors (Saturated or P&H). The system is complete, tested and operational. For specifics, construction information, PC analysis software, and schematics, see: http://www.bgsoflex.com/fitester.html Also, a few people have indicated that they would be interested in a group buy for the circuit board & components - let me know if there is interest. - Bruce > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:22:23 EDT > From: Vanirv6@aol.com > Subject: Injector flowbench? > > All, > > I was curious if anyone on this list has constructed the injector flowbench > shown in the "Performance Engineering" articles archived on the DIY-EFI site? > > Thanks! > > Sven Pruett > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- - Bruce --------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling bbowling@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~bbowling --------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 14:07:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA28162 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:07:31 -0700 Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA28158 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:07:25 -0700 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.a4.166302c1 (16781) for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:06:39 EDT Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Per Lew P, the SyTy manifold was stopped short of full development due to > $$ constraints, the engineers knew @ the time there was a defect - the > prototype is what they went with. Wow, those ba$tards.. I wonder if the problem was related to the recessed port divider. I didn't make a career out of it, but I did a plug read and they looked the same after a hi-boost thunder-run with the ports sealed to the intake manifold.. Hmmm.. you could always run a a little bigger injector on #1. What was Lew's fix for the situation? > Just wanted to know if there's any improvement on a DIY basis so's to > equalize the flow amongst the cylinders better. Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 14:45:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA28441 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:45:44 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA28437 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:45:36 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.41.140]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010705214535.UEMV21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:45:35 -0400 Message-ID: <018601c1059b$d3fc94a0$8c29c9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:45:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > Per Lew P, the SyTy manifold was stopped short of full development due to > > $$ constraints, the engineers knew @ the time there was a defect - the > > prototype is what they went with. > Wow, those ba$tards.. > I wonder if the problem was related to the recessed port divider. > I didn't make a career out of it, but I did a plug read and they > looked the same after a hi-boost thunder-run with the ports sealed to > the intake manifold.. > Hmmm.. you could always run a a little bigger injector on #1. > What was Lew's fix for the situation? > > Just wanted to know if there's any improvement on a DIY basis so's to > > equalize the flow amongst the cylinders better. Larger Plenum Bruce > Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 15:00:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:00:03 -0700 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA28588 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:59:55 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705215947.GKMB5189.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:59:47 -0700 Message-ID: <004e01c105b7$104388e0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> <006a01c10430$95ffdfc0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> <3B428FB6.35478881@cableone.net> Subject: Re: intake plenum size & reversion Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:00:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > The situation I have is the motor is a chevy V8 small block 6.6l engine, with > what someone else measured to be a 3L intake, with 3-4" runners. This motor > is a late model chevy LT1 motor, and the intake has IAC passages built > into it (basically a separate plenum/runner setup going to each cylinders > runner, and this air is separately controlled with a idle air hole-much like > you would drill in a carbed motor, and a iac motor setup). > > At idle (without using the special IAC passages in the intake, or without > using them enough) the motor runs consistantly different side to side > (one side runs with say a blm of 110 or so and the other side run 160, > basically -15% fuel on one side, and +25% on the other side), as the > throttle increases things even out. The above was determined by averaging > a large number of samples (10-15,000). > Is this thing I.R., or common throttle, or what exactly is it? Two common bank HO2's?.... Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 15:01:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28631 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:01:35 -0700 Received: from mss.sdc8.sfba.home.com (ha2.sdc8.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.197]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA28626 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:01:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ha2.sdc8.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.197] claimed to be mss.sdc8.sfba.home.com Received: from cc693406a ([65.11.182.46]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705215932.NSLH16367.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc693406a> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:59:32 -0700 Message-ID: <009901c1059d$fd45d0e0$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> From: "David Hunt" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20010704102055.006d98d0@smtp.cybersol.com> Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:01:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Barry, In response to your question, I haven't seen any air flow rate benches. I have been thinking along the same lines as you. A vacuum source could be controlled by using the vacuum signal as feed back to a motor controller. The flow could be measured by something like a MAF sensor. This deluxe system could be relatively accurate from system to system. Also, A good vacuum source shouldn't be necessary if the differential vacuum is held between input and output the power required to hold the differential pressure between input and output would indicate the flow. While sort of repeatable from run to run, it might not be repeatable between setups. Other ideas would be helpful. dh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Tisdale" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: DIY flowbench? > Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or lands in my Sy > engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. Was thinking of > a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare manifold > & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer or a MAP sensor; > idea is to equalize flow between runers. > > Comments? > > Thanks - Barry > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 15:24:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28877 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:24:18 -0700 Received: from smtp.skyenet.net (IDENT:root@smtp.skyenet.net [12.96.247.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA28873 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:24:11 -0700 Received: from jrh (decatur-line-8.fwi.com [209.84.174.73]) by smtp.skyenet.net (8.12.0.Beta7/8.11.0) with SMTP id f65KMwKP013045 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:22:59 -0500 Message-ID: <005901c105a2$1de56be0$5ecdfea9@jrh> From: "Jason R. Haines" To: References: <3B44B52E.B9861306@tomquinn.com> Subject: Re: Data collection system Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:30:36 -0500 Organization: Lingenfelter Performance Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Depending on the year of the vehicle, Diacom and/or the TTS software should be able to do what you are asking. I use both programs. The TTS software takes a bit more processing power but has more information available. The Diacom software works with a lot of different vehicles without having to buy another program. Hope this helps, Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "TomQ" To: Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: Data collection system > Gang I am presently using the handheld EZlink Automotive Diagnostic > Meter by Auto Xray to scan my GM TBI system (747 chip). It has performed > well up to now but the snap shot approach to data collection is getting > tiresome. Is there a system that is not to expensive, runs on a laptop, > and can take a whole mess of data readings while I drive around. I would > like to see how the numbers look as I run the throttle up and down and > as the motor warms up. > > -- > TomQ > SF,CA > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 15:29:17 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:29:17 -0700 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA28918 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:29:10 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705222904.GYGY5189.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:29:04 -0700 Message-ID: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:29:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Now we schedule a piston and rod swap on all trucks that show up with a > stock turbo and no cat, the wastegate has a hard time controlling the boost > pressure whithout additional backpressure of the cat. We have done a few > trucks that has had this problem, we have heard of a few more over here. > Nowdays the leakdown test is done mostly for appearance, the result is > always the same... > This twigs a question I'd love to ask you. Have you ever measured the backpressure between say the engine and turbine, or the turbine and exhaust, or the engine and exhaust, of any of these turbo'd Syclones or Typhoons? Have always been kinda curious as to what the EBP would be. Thinking further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP in terms of their ability to make boost?..... Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 15:44:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA29131 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:44:47 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA29123 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:44:39 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.41.140]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010705224438.UIQW21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:44:38 -0400 Message-ID: <01d801c105a4$13aa7c40$8c29c9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:44:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > Now we schedule a piston and rod swap on all trucks that show up with a > > stock turbo and no cat, the wastegate has a hard time controlling the > boost > > pressure whithout additional backpressure of the cat. We have done a few > > trucks that has had this problem, we have heard of a few more over here. > > Nowdays the leakdown test is done mostly for appearance, the result is > > always the same... > This twigs a question I'd love to ask you. Have you ever measured the > backpressure between say the engine and turbine, or the turbine and exhaust, > or the engine and exhaust, of any of these turbo'd Syclones or Typhoons? > Have always been kinda curious as to what the EBP would be. Thinking > further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP in terms of > their ability to make boost?..... > Walt. On the oem type setups, EBP of twice as much as boost is common. On some aftermarket Honda stuff they are claiming to have reached "cross over", where there is less EBP then boost, but they are using rather large turbos in the examples they showed. I just recently went quiet with the GN and added an addition muffler, and the car definetely picked up some performance. Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 16:25:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA29616 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:25:43 -0700 Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA29612 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:25:37 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010705232529.KIVS22847.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:25:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c105c3$085c1aa0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:26:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > The smothing of the combustion chamber that Bruce mentioned is probably a > good idea, but WE don't do that on these engines. Detonation is usually not > a problem for us. We recommend going for ported Vortec heads with a ported What was the typical original failure mode? Detonation? How are you avoiding detonation in your subsequent setups? Simply thru tuning?.... Walt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 16:33:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA29681 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:33:26 -0700 Received: from smtp1.home.se (smtp1.home.se [195.66.35.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA29677 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:33:19 -0700 Received: from jurg2kpro [212.75.66.21] by smtp2.home.se with Novonyx SMTP Server $Revision: 2.74 $; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 01:29:54 +0200 (ECTD) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:38:36 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, We haven't measured the backpressure on any of the syclones. Jörgen > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Walter Sherwin > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:30 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > > > > Now we schedule a piston and rod swap on all trucks that show up with a > > stock turbo and no cat, the wastegate has a hard time controlling the > boost > > pressure whithout additional backpressure of the cat. We have done a few > > trucks that has had this problem, we have heard of a few more over here. > > Nowdays the leakdown test is done mostly for appearance, the result is > > always the same... > > > > > This twigs a question I'd love to ask you. Have you ever measured the > backpressure between say the engine and turbine, or the turbine > and exhaust, > or the engine and exhaust, of any of these turbo'd Syclones or Typhoons? > Have always been kinda curious as to what the EBP would be. Thinking > further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP > in terms of > their ability to make boost?..... > > Walt. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 18:33:52 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA30316 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:33:52 -0700 Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA30304 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:33:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11] claimed to be cgpro.iccx.net Received: from [206.168.145.116] (HELO [206.168.145.116]) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 61935230 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:33:30 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:35:56 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Thinking >further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP in terms of >their ability to make boost?..... > >Walt. > The power output of the turbine depends on the absolute pressure ratio across it from input to output. (Also on absolute temperature of input gas, and mass flow of the gas.) Reducing exhaust back-pressure downstream of the turbine means a higher pressure ratio to drive the turbine, means more turbine output, means more boost. There are some complicating factors, such (notably) as reaching choked (sonic, or Mach 1) flow in the inlet nozzle(s) to the turbine. It takes an absolute pressure ratio of about 1.85 or 1.9 to 1 across a nozzle to produce choked flow at the most constricted point in the nozzle. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 19:23:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA30583 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:23:38 -0700 Received: from postal.grolen.com ([216.177.31.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA30579 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:23:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [216.177.31.5] claimed to be postal.grolen.com Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.177.31.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 22:23:24 -0400 Received: from [216.177.30.13] by grolen.com id b30e0.wrk; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:24:28 EDT Message-ID: <3B452107.9290D74C@grolen.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 22:23:03 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: intake plenum size & reversion References: <200106270800.BAA04453@hektor.valesh.com> <002901c0ff5d$82f464f0$ae687018@cr929909a> <001a01c10358$b02f9bc0$8af26596@adam.com.au> <006a01c10430$95ffdfc0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> <3B428FB6.35478881@cableone.net> <004e01c105b7$104388e0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Factory stock LT1's have a LH and RH injector control strategy, with complimenting LH and RH O2 sensors. I once had quite a struggle with a car in which the LH and RH O2 sensor leads had been inadvertently switched at the ECM. LH bank would go full rich, and the RH bank would go full lean. Then the next time the car was started, the lean and rich banks would flip-flop. Shannen Walter Sherwin wrote: > > > > Is this thing I.R., or common throttle, or what exactly is it? Two common > bank HO2's?.... > > Walt. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 19:52:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA30785 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:52:33 -0700 Received: from virazon.baps.bom.gov.au (virazon.baps.bom.gov.au [134.178.209.72]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA30781 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:52:19 -0700 Received: from emu.baps.bom.gov.au (emu.baps.bom.gov.au [134.178.210.22]) by virazon.baps.bom.gov.au with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.7.3) id MAA17006 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:51:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by emu.baps.bom.gov.au with Microsoft Mail id <01C1061A.03536D40@emu.baps.bom.gov.au>; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:48:53 +1000 Message-ID: <01C1061A.03536D40@emu.baps.bom.gov.au> From: Stuart Baly To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Nissans Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:48:51 +1000 X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ian, The 180SX uses Nissan's ECCS. Info on this is available at http://www.nissansilvia.com/ . Cheers, Stuart 91 Pulsar GTIR >Does anyone know what type of computer the Nissan 180sx begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C4"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`H $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 9&EY+65F:2YO2UE9FDN;W)G`````!X``C !````!0```%--5% ````` M'@`#, $````4````9&EY7V5F:4!D:7DM969I+F]R9P`#`!4,`0````,`_@\& M````'@`!, $````6````)V1I>5]E9FE 9&EY+65F:2YO`/9?`0```!0```!D:7E?969I0&1I>2UE9FDN;W)G``(!]U\!```` M10````````"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 9&EY+65F:2YO M2UE9FDN;W)G``````,`_5\!`````P#_7P`` M```"`?8/`0````0````````"*50!!( !``P```!213H@3FES# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!(```!3+D)A;'E 8F]M+F=O M=BYA=0````,`!A#O1<^R`P`'$),````>``@0`0```&4```!)04XL5$A%,3@P M4UA54T533DE34T%.4T5#0U-)3D9/3TY42$E325-!5D%)3$%"3$5!5$A45% Z M+R]75U=.25-304Y324Q624%#3TTO0TA%15)3+%-454%25#DQ4%5,4T%21U1) M``````(!"1 !````.0$``#4!``"2`0``3%I&=?G:U3\#``H`A M! $`<"<$(*!%0T-3+A5P;@(0HB "("!T: 0`(!CQO&%V"W +8 )@%I!A!4$J M8P!!=0,@: ) <#KH+R]W&Q N`P`7@@"0E&QV!S N!:!M+QHA9P% &G 18" N M%<45TT.+%H $D',5M5-T=0K PG05Q#DQ(% :0(07 1U1)4AT:/D0V;P>1 M`'!Y`B 6D&MN&F\'X'<1``5 ='EP$1:0;V8@'"%P=72?!) 8P1:0%V06HG-X M'. O"N,=5A7$$?$`)A ````#`! 0``````,`$1 ``````P" $/____] ``

`"6 "" &``````# ```````` M1@````!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`F@ @@!@``````P ```````$8````` M`84````````+`"^ "" &``````# ````````1@`````.A0````````,`,( ( M( 8``````, ```````!&`````!&%`````````P`R@ @@!@``````P `````` M`$8`````&(4````````>`$& "" &``````# ````````1@`````VA0```0`` M``$`````````'@!"@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-X4```$````!```` M`````!X`0X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````> =`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``#,*% ` end ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 22:44:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA31256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:44:25 -0700 Received: from chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com (cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA31252 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:44:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21] claimed to be chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com X-Server-Uuid: 26fe3e76-19dd-11d3-be09-0008c7b1f151 Message-ID: <5AB456BD8DF8D211815100805F1596BB045AA105@chevron.com> From: "Wilkie, Johnson (WLKJ)" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Data collection system Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:43:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-WSS-ID: 175B9067163303-01-02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I 'll be very interested in this too. Especially on the software side of the arrangement. > -----Original Message----- > From: TomQ [SMTP:zippy@tomquinn.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:43 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Data collection system > > Gang I am presently using the handheld EZlink Automotive Diagnostic > Meter by Auto Xray to scan my GM TBI system (747 chip). It has performed > well up to now but the snap shot approach to data collection is getting > tiresome. Is there a system that is not to expensive, runs on a laptop, > and can take a whole mess of data readings while I drive around. I would > like to see how the numbers look as I run the throttle up and down and > as the motor warms up. > > -- > TomQ > SF,CA > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 5 22:48:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA31302 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:48:05 -0700 Received: from chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com (cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA31296 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:47:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cppat2.chevron.com [208.33.240.21] claimed to be chvpk-wss2.sr.chevron.com X-Server-Uuid: 26fe3e76-19dd-11d3-be09-0008c7b1f151 Message-ID: <5AB456BD8DF8D211815100805F1596BB045AA106@chevron.com> From: "Wilkie, Johnson (WLKJ)" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: Data collection system Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:47:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-WSS-ID: 175B8F7A164106-01-02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A little bit on the hardware please! What kind of cable setup are needed? I'm a bit new to this world of efi. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason R. Haines [SMTP:jhaines@lingenfelter.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:31 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Data collection system > > Depending on the year of the vehicle, Diacom and/or the TTS software > should > be able to do what you are asking. I use both programs. The TTS software > takes a bit more processing power but has more information available. The > Diacom software works with a lot of different vehicles without having to > buy > another program. > > Hope this helps, > > Jason > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TomQ" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 1:42 PM > Subject: Data collection system > > > > Gang I am presently using the handheld EZlink Automotive Diagnostic > > Meter by Auto Xray to scan my GM TBI system (747 chip). It has performed > > well up to now but the snap shot approach to data collection is getting > > tiresome. Is there a system that is not to expensive, runs on a laptop, > > and can take a whole mess of data readings while I drive around. I would > > like to see how the numbers look as I run the throttle up and down and > > as the motor warms up. > > > > -- > > TomQ > > SF,CA > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 00:12:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA31680 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:12:32 -0700 Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.de (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA31676 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16] claimed to be mailout00.sul.t-online.de Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout00.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15IPmq-000188-06; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:12:24 +0200 Received: from t-online.de (320027373862-0001@[217.88.19.151]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15IPmX-0JFyM4C; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:12:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3B456527.77EB69C9@t-online.de> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:13:43 +0200 From: KHeintz@t-online.de (Kurt Heintz) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW0325a (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: BOSCH ECM PROGRAMMING References: <5AB456BD8DF8D211815100805F1596BB045AA104@chevron.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 320027373862-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I would regard http://www.bmwworld.com/repairs/fuel_system.htm once! KH "Wilkie, Johnson (WLKJ)" schrieb: > > I am pretty new to the efi world. I need direction on what I need to get my > laptop to communicate with BOSCH ECM. ( P/N: 0261 200 173). Where can I get > information on programming the ECM? > > WJ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 01:02:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA31963 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:02:03 -0700 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA31959 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:01:55 -0700 Received: from modem-68.euthyrox.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.93.196]) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15IQYj-0004wk-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:01:53 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:03:52 +0100 From: Chris Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53bis) Personal Organization: Gatesgarth Racing Developments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <11075296650.20010706090352@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> To: Bruce Subject: Re[2]: 911 Porsche, kit to convert from mechanical injectors to electronic? In-Reply-To: <00d101c1027f$7be398a0$6d0ac9d8@bruce> References: <3932900818.20010701233020@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> <00d101c1027f$7be398a0$6d0ac9d8@bruce> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Sunday, July 01, 2001, 11:45:09 PM, you wrote: > No such thing. > I've never seen an EFi without a harness and ecm, never mind quick way. > Bruce I put my question poorly, sorry. I was trying to ask if there existed a kit to save fabricating electronic injector mounts and a throttle pot mount. I know I need an ECU and sensors, and a loom, et cetera :-) Was going to MAP sensored system, probably Motec. Just didn't want to machine up stuff if it's available over the counter for a fair price. Thanks. -- Best regards, Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 02:14:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA32408 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:14:03 -0700 Received: from guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (root@guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.224.93]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA32404 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:13:57 -0700 Received: from dcs.warwick.ac.uk (fab@phlogiston [137.205.226.120]) by guardian.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (8.11.1/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f669Dmi07752 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:13:48 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3B458090.460A60F@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:10:40 +0100 From: Franc Buxton Organization: Computer Science, Warwick University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.38 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: was: Nissans now:VIRUS References: <01C1061A.03536D40@emu.baps.bom.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Stuart Baly wrote: > > Ian, > The 180SX uses Nissan's ECCS. Info on this is available at http://www.nissansilvia.com/ . > > Cheers, > Stuart > 91 Pulsar GTIR > > >Does anyone know what type of computer the Nissan 180sx > > Name: WINMAIL.DAT > WINMAIL.DAT Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: x-uuencode Stuart (and everybody), The above email was sent to the List with the attachment 'WINMAIL.DAT' which I believe is an outlook virus. Respectfully suggest people check their systems! Regards, Franc. -- W------W WW--- ---WW fab@dcs.warwick.ac.uk W(-(+)^^(+)-)W (| L |) fab@StunnedBuffalo.com \ /WW\ / X\____/X tel.: +44 (0)705 060 4-FAB XXXXXX (+44 (0)705 060 4 322) XXXX http://www.StunnedBuffalo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 04:16:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA00334 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:16:39 -0700 Received: from invictus.bright.net (invictus.bright.net [205.212.123.12]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA00330 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:16:33 -0700 Received: from bruce ([209.143.37.14]) by invictus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010706111632.VXZR21459.invictus@bruce> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:16:32 -0400 Message-ID: <005101c1060d$1ea5ac00$0e258fd1@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <3932900818.20010701233020@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> <00d101c1027f$7be398a0$6d0ac9d8@bruce> <11075296650.20010706090352@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: Re[2]: 911 Porsche, kit to convert from mechanical injectors to electronic? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:16:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Then I'd guess finding an EFI porsche and ripping the EFI off of it would be easiest. Now if your fabing your own manifolds, figure out what ecm you want to use, and then see what sensors it uses. Throtlle bodies vary on size alot so you need to have some idea of what you actually need. The direct answer to tyour guestion is no I don't know of any kit for doing what your asking. HTH Bruce There was mention of a URL like Pelicanparts.com for Porsche stuff. Might track them down.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Wilson" To: "Bruce" Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:03 AM Subject: Re[2]: 911 Porsche, kit to convert from mechanical injectors to electronic? > Sunday, July 01, 2001, 11:45:09 PM, you wrote: > > > > > No such thing. > > I've never seen an EFi without a harness and ecm, never mind quick way. > > Bruce > > > I put my question poorly, sorry. I was trying to ask if there existed a kit to > save fabricating electronic injector mounts and a throttle pot mount. I > know I need an ECU and sensors, and a loom, et cetera :-) Was going to > MAP sensored system, probably Motec. Just didn't > want to machine up stuff if it's available over the counter for a fair > price. Thanks. > > > -- > Best regards, > Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk > http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 05:29:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA00643 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 05:29:29 -0700 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA00639 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 05:29:23 -0700 Received: from [151.110.126.62] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for 209-79-244-250.dnbonline.com [209.79.244.250]) with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 12:29:23 UT Received: by cleohsex02.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:29:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:17:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org a few years ago in Popular Hot Rodding, they showed a DIY flow bench that seemed pretty simple to build. I have half the article somewhere, but not the full monty. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Hunt [mailto:bamainc@home.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:01 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > Barry, > > In response to your question, I haven't seen any air flow > rate benches. I > have been thinking along the same lines as you. A vacuum > source could be > controlled by using the vacuum signal as feed back to a motor > controller. > The flow could be measured by something like a MAF sensor. > This deluxe > system could be relatively accurate from system to system. > > Also, A good vacuum source shouldn't be necessary if the > differential vacuum > is held between input and output the power required to hold > the differential > pressure between input and output would indicate the flow. > While sort of > repeatable from run to run, it might not be repeatable between setups. > > Other ideas would be helpful. > > dh > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry Tisdale" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:20 AM > Subject: DIY flowbench? > > > > Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or > lands in my Sy > > engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. > Was thinking of > > a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare > manifold > > & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer > or a MAP sensor; > > idea is to equalize flow between runers. > > > > Comments? > > > > Thanks - Barry > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 05:32:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA00684 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 05:32:57 -0700 Received: from smtp1.home.se (smtp1.home.se [195.66.35.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA00680 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 05:32:49 -0700 Received: from jurg2kpro [212.75.66.206] by smtp2.home.se with Novonyx SMTP Server $Revision: 2.74 $; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:29:30 +0200 (ECTD) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:38:11 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c105c3$085c1aa0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > What was the typical original failure mode? Detonation? How are you > avoiding detonation in your subsequent setups? Simply thru tuning?.... > The typical failure mode is detonatonation because of uncontrolled boost pressure, 20-30psi is not a good idea with stock internals. Ring lands and bent rods are the result. As long as the exhaust is not too free flowing it is not a problem. This is solved with a bigger turbo, porting of the wastegate on the stock turbo could probably do the trick too but since the turbos start to get very old by now a new turbo is often needed anyway. Not to mention how much power is added by the bigger turbo. After the new rods and pistons are in the engine can take a lot of detonation, people don't seem to remember what the maximum boost pressure is. But there are a few guys here that still run stock turbos with good internals and free flowing exhaust, they have to check the boost gauge all the time to make sure that it stay at safe levels. Some people can handle that, most can't. Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 06:14:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA01001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:14:02 -0700 Received: from smtpgw.bnl.gov (mail@smtpgw.bnl.gov [130.199.3.16]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA00997 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:13:54 -0700 Received: from bnl.gov ([130.199.128.163]) by smtpgw.bnl.gov with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 ) id 15IVQe-0007ws-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:13:52 -0400 Received: from inst911 (inst911.ags.bnl.gov [130.199.100.93]) by bnl.gov (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA19388 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010706091323.00c8a100@exchange01.bnl.gov> X-Sender: rschroeder@exchange01.bnl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:13:23 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Ron Schroeder Subject: Air cooled EFI, was 911 Porsche, kit to convert from mechanical injectors to electronic? In-Reply-To: <005101c1060d$1ea5ac00$0e258fd1@bruce> References: <3932900818.20010701233020@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> <00d101c1027f$7be398a0$6d0ac9d8@bruce> <11075296650.20010706090352@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, I am also trying to convert an air cooled engine to EFI. My question is what is different about an air cooled engine compared to a water cooled one that I should worry about? Is 14.7:1 A/F ratio still good or should it run richer than that. Due to the power/weight ratio of the vehicle, engine load changes will be slow so I think that I might be able to run closed loop all the time. The engine is very loud. Is there a reliable way to detect the onset of pinging on an air cooled engine other than by ear. I would like to control spark with the ECM too since the dist. is mechanical advance only. The engine is a 2.5L inline 4 cyl. with 2 - 2 bbl carbs. I want to improve cold start and running as my primary goal. Cleaning up the exhaust would be nice too. Thanks, Ron Schroeder WD8CDH E. E. S. wd8cdh@bnl.gov rjs@bnl.gov ron@112motors.com 631 344-4561 Day 631 286-5677 Nite ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 06:41:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA01182 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:41:37 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (oe28.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.85]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA01177 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:41:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe28.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.85] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:40:28 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [208.44.92.165] From: "Tom" To: References: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #656 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:39:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2001 13:40:28.0297 (UTC) FILETIME=[37CD3F90:01C10621] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Has this been verified recently? I thought it was supp'd to be an NTK part, not Bosch.. don't want to end up w/ the wrong pair of $120 sensors :-) -tom > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:27:06 -0400 > From: Barry Tisdale > Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor > > The sensor is still available @ the "old" price - $117 - bought mine a > couple of months back, but the price is unchanges, I just checked. > > www.thepartsbin.com > > 92-95 Honda Civic, P/N 36531-P07-003 Bosch # 13246 > > Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 07:49:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA01586 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:49:23 -0700 Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA01582 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:49:15 -0700 Received: from c157627a ([24.11.247.148]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010706144909.MARK25316.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c157627a> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:49:09 -0700 From: "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" To: Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:52:12 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c1062b$3e34e9a0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Barry and Dan, I bought my sensor through NAPA with a direct cross to the Honda p/n. There was no Bosch cross and that concerns me a bit with the www.thepartsbin.com part that Barry referenced. In fact I do not believe that Bosch builds an ion pumping based sensor, which produces a variable current output, so how can there be a cross? Bosch's wideband sensor (the LSM11) produces a variable voltage output with exhaust temp. correction performed programatically using a 3D lookup table in the ECM based on change in sensor resistance (temp.). Is it possible that NTK has licensed Bosch to build this sensor as well? I can't definitively say that I know that Bosch doesn't have other WB technology. On the www.thepartsbin.com site if you drill down through the particular vehicle menus, the California version of the VX is a NTK sensor ($94.78) versus the non-Cal which is a Bosch. Dan, what you are calling a connector in the middle of the harness is a rubber grommet, used for securing the wiring to a bracket or such in the Civic. If you know what vehicle it came out of or have a p/n you can call NTK tech support in Michigan, (248) 926-6900, for further information on this sensors capabilities. I have received very straight answers from John McQuarry (not sure of spelling on last name), unlike the Japanese counterparts at NTK. The fact that your sensor does not have a calibration resistor is suspicious. Good luck, Glenn. --------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:06:59 -0400 From: Dan Subject: I realize that only the Civic VX has the correct sensor, and all other Civics don't. The sensor I have terminates into two connectors, a three pin and a two pin. The sensor does look similar to the one pictured at FJO-Enterprises. There is the same mid-connector (in fact two of them), and then it goes to the two connectors and a bracket. The website claims the hex size is 22mm and the thread size is 18x1.5mm. My sensor seems to be smaller than that. I'm not sure about either size, but the hex nut is clearly smaller than my 22mm O2 wrench socket. I guess my real question is, is it possible that I could have a WB O2 sensor with a smaller hex nut and two connectors instead of the standard stuff. Are there any 5-wire NTK sensors which aren't wideband? If there aren't, it pretty much answers whether this is wideband or not. dan - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:27:06 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor The sensor is still available @ the "old" price - $117 - bought mine a couple of months back, but the price is unchanges, I just checked. www.thepartsbin.com 92-95 Honda Civic, P/N 36531-P07-003 Bosch # 13246 Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 08:29:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA01812 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:29:55 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA01808 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:29:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (prsh-mdm1.cybersol.com [209.172.23.7]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:29:39 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010706011251.006d8464@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 01:12:51 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? In-Reply-To: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In my turbo experiments last year, I was using a 20g compressor & 10cm Mitsu turbine housing. Backpressure ran over 2.5x boost pressure, enough so's *nothing* would hold the WG shut against the pressure. Tapped into the turbine pre-inlet to get the 2.5+x figure - this wasn't logged, just eyeballed. Had the exhaust pressure gauge taped to the boost gauge so I could see relative readings. WGs used were stock internal, Deltagate & HKS - none worked. Exhaust is 3" all the way back, no cat, hi flo muff. That setup is gone now - so far so good using a 14cm housing - just need the right wheel for it - only 15# max w/ poor spoolup....{:^o{E Barry - Sy#26 At 06:29 PM 7/5/01 -0700, Walter Sherwin wrote: >This twigs a question I'd love to ask you. Have you ever measured the >backpressure between say the engine and turbine, or the turbine and exhaust, >or the engine and exhaust, of any of these turbo'd Syclones or Typhoons? >Have always been kinda curious as to what the EBP would be. Thinking >further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP in terms of >their ability to make boost?..... > >Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 09:08:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA02018 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:08:58 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com ([209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA02014 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:08:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [209.172.21.6] claimed to be ns3.cybersol.com Received: from alfred (prsh-mdm7.cybersol.com [209.172.23.13]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:08:47 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010706114602.006fdf0c@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:46:02 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) In-Reply-To: <000401c1062b$3e34e9a0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> References: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I don't know the corporate politics involved here, but - The box says "Bosch", pasted over one end is a black sticker that says: P/N 13246, F00E260603, Made in Japan, Package Made in USA, (Copyright symbol) 2000, Robert Bosch Corp., Broadview, IL 60155-4594 The sensor inside says (stamped in metal): "L1H1" "NTK" "Japan" Appearamce is correct WRT wires, colors, plug, cal resistor, etc. Function is same as "genuine" NTK part purchased year or so back from Honda - just ran 'em both on the bench. It's the genuine deal...... Barry At 08:52 AM 7/6/01 -0600, Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse wrote: >Barry and Dan, > >I bought my sensor through NAPA with a direct cross to the Honda p/n. There >was no Bosch cross and that concerns me a bit with the www.thepartsbin.com >part that Barry referenced. In fact I do not believe that Bosch builds an >ion pumping based sensor, which produces a variable current output, so how >can there be a cross? Bosch's wideband sensor (the LSM11) produces a >variable voltage output with exhaust temp. correction performed >programatically using a 3D lookup table in the ECM based on change in sensor >resistance (temp.). Is it possible that NTK has licensed Bosch to build >this sensor as well? I can't definitively say that I know that Bosch >doesn't have other WB technology. On the www.thepartsbin.com site if you >drill down through the particular vehicle menus, the California version of >the VX is a NTK sensor ($94.78) versus the non-Cal which is a Bosch. > >Dan, what you are calling a connector in the middle of the harness is a >rubber grommet, used for securing the wiring to a bracket or such in the >Civic. If you know what vehicle it came out of or have a p/n you can call >NTK tech support in Michigan, (248) 926-6900, for further information on >this sensors capabilities. I have received very straight answers from John >McQuarry (not sure of spelling on last name), unlike the Japanese >counterparts at NTK. The fact that your sensor does not have a calibration >resistor is suspicious. > >Good luck, Glenn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 09:44:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA02216 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:44:46 -0700 Received: from m24.boston.juno.com (m24.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.87]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA02212 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:44:40 -0700 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"+xb1rTd12SIShQLp0vkqsskwJ1HoluY7+ADvJYI6+mCjk/maXdVxzg=="> Received: (from blocklm@juno.com) by m24.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F9N8V64U; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:44:10 EDT To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:48:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Message-ID: <20010706.094818.143.2.blocklm@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-11,17-18,20-21 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Brian L Massey Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:52:12 -0600 "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" writes: >If you know what vehicle it came out of or have a p/n you > can call > NTK tech support in Michigan, (248) 926-6900, for further > information on > this sensors capabilities. I have received very straight answers > from John > McQuarry (not sure of spelling on last name), unlike the Japanese > counterparts at NTK. Did they say anything about how hard they are to get? I've had one on order from NAPA for almost two months now. The NAPA guy says they are just real scarce. Probably too many of you guys buying them, maybe? I don't think he's just stringing me on or incompatent, cause he shows me the search he pulls up on his computer, and last week there were zip in any of the distribution sites he gets his parts from. BTW, what kinds of things did this guy have to say about the sensors? Any problems or pitfalls?? Tnx. Brian ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 13:01:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA03047 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:01:14 -0700 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA03043 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:01:07 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010706200056.JKHI8388.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:00:56 -0700 Message-ID: <006f01c1066f$a0ce5da0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20010706011251.006d8464@smtp.cybersol.com> Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:01:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Thanks to all who responded to this topic on-list and off..... Walt. > In my turbo experiments last year, I was using a 20g compressor & 10cm > Mitsu turbine housing. Backpressure ran over 2.5x boost pressure, enough > so's *nothing* would hold the WG shut against the pressure. Tapped into > the turbine pre-inlet to get the 2.5+x figure - this wasn't logged, just > eyeballed. Had the exhaust pressure gauge taped to the boost gauge so I > could see relative readings. WGs used were stock internal, Deltagate & HKS > - none worked. > > Exhaust is 3" all the way back, no cat, hi flo muff. > > That setup is gone now - so far so good using a 14cm housing - just need > the right wheel for it - only 15# max w/ poor spoolup....{:^o{E > > Barry - Sy#26 > > At 06:29 PM 7/5/01 -0700, Walter Sherwin wrote: > >This twigs a question I'd love to ask you. Have you ever measured the > >backpressure between say the engine and turbine, or the turbine and exhaust, > >or the engine and exhaust, of any of these turbo'd Syclones or Typhoons? > >Have always been kinda curious as to what the EBP would be. Thinking > >further abroad, turbos must be pretty sensitive to overall EBP in terms of > >their ability to make boost?..... > > > >Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 14:13:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA03465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:13:06 -0700 Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA03459 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:12:58 -0700 Received: from home.com ([24.251.251.194]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010706211240.WDLR11925.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:12:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4629EA.48207EBC@home.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:13:14 -0400 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) References: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> <3.0.1.32.20010706114602.006fdf0c@smtp.cybersol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Barry Tisdale wrote: A bunch of stuff including > The sensor inside says (stamped in metal): "L1H1" "NTK" "Japan" > Appearamce is correct WRT wires, colors, plug, cal resistor, etc. Function > is same as "genuine" NTK part purchased year or so back from Honda - just > ran 'em both on the bench. That's the answer I was looking for I have to ask, how did you "run it on the bench"? Rob_O ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 14:20:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA03504 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:20:34 -0700 Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA03500 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:20:28 -0700 Received: from electron ([24.3.251.94]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010706212007.SLLJ25177.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@electron> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:20:07 -0700 Message-ID: <061201c10662$9b954fe0$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> From: "Jeff Bromberger" To: References: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <01d801c105a4$13aa7c40$8c29c9d8@bruce> Subject: egt probe location Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:28:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If i'm going to have only a single EGT probe on a V8 SBC could i still get usefull data by mounting it in one of the header collectors? my thought is that the temps would read lower than if it was mounted right by the head, but i would still see relative changes (added timing, temp went up, for example)... and i would also be able to keep tabs on at least half of the motor vs. only one cylinder... how much do you think the temps would drop from head to collector on long tube headers? thanks, jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 17:35:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA04376 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:35:59 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (oe17.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.121]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA04372 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe17.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.121] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:35:22 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.198.178] From: "944Technologist" To: References: <3932900818.20010701233020@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> <00d101c1027f$7be398a0$6d0ac9d8@bruce> <11075296650.20010706090352@formula3.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: Re[2]: 911 Porsche, kit to convert from mechanical injectors to electronic? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:35:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2001 00:35:22.0686 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5152DE0:01C1067C] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Chris Wilson" > I put my question poorly, sorry. I was trying to ask if there existed a kit to > save fabricating electronic injector mounts and a throttle pot mount. I > know I need an ECU and sensors, and a loom, et cetera :-) Was going to > MAP sensored system, probably Motec. Just didn't > want to machine up stuff if it's available over the counter for a fair > price. Thanks. > -- > Best regards, > Chris Wilson mailto:chris@formula3.freeserve.co.uk > http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk >From 83 to 89, Porsche used a BOSCH ML3.1 Motronic system on all 911s. The "stuff" is available. FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 18:17:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA04667 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:17:41 -0700 Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com (imo-m01.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA04663 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:17:35 -0700 From: Onebil2mny@aol.com Received: from Onebil2mny@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.95.cfc77b1 (3944) for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95.cfc77b1.2877bd05@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:16:53 EDT Subject: Howell, Again To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org OK boys and girls, this is where we have gotten. We installed the new computer and it fired up fine. A little hesitation at first, but that went away. I assume this is because the new computer had to learn. Anyway, the first 100 miles or so went fine, and I thought we had it licked. I thought wrong. Here are the symptoms, and what I have checked. You may recall that this is an LT-4 Corvette motor installed in a 1956 Chevrolet. The computer (18188021) and harness was purchased from Howell Engineering. The computer is set up as a speed density system, and uses the following sensors. MAP sensor MAT sensor Cam sensor (I assume) from the distributor (2) O2 sensors (4 wire) (2) Knock sensors (common wire) TPS sensor Coolant Temp. sensor The problem is that sometimes, usually during "warm up" as the vehicle goes into closed loop, the computer will drive one bank so rich as to blow black smoke from that side of the exhaust. Although it hasn't acted up on the scan tool recently, the last time it did, the O2 readings were high, while the pulse width was wide, indicating that the computer was driving that bank rich. It recently acted up, and set a left side lean exhaust code (44) but I do not know which side was running rich at that time. I have checked for crossed O2 harnesses and they check out. I got a print out of the pin voltages, and did the requisite checks on the O2 sensors and everything checks OK, zero volts on the "low" side of the O2 sensor, etc. The low side does read around 1.5v on the harness side when the sensor is disconnected, but I see no specification for a disconnected sensor. While my next step is to start checking ECM grounds, I am hoping that someone else will have another idea. I am certain the ECM is grounded, and grounded well, but I am going to check just to be certain. Thanks for any input you can send me... This thing is starting to... erm... well, I'm not real happy with it, that's for certain! Shiny Side Up! Bill K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 20:01:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA05053 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:01:02 -0700 Received: from comet.connix.com (root@comet.connix.com [198.69.10.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA05049 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:00:55 -0700 Received: from connix.com (c5300-1-ip145.albany.thebiz.net [216.238.224.145]) by comet.connix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16550 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B467BB6.DA065C22@connix.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:02:18 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Organization: ww.connix.com/~bshaw/william.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: [Ferrari] Throttle body sizing question for carb to EFI 308 References: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi guys, I'm forwarding this from the Ferrari list for a friend there. He's working on an EFI conversion and is in need of a bit of help in selecting the right throttle bodies. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bill '78 FI 124 Spider '84 Mondial Cabriolet '94 Z28 > > Alan Ing wrote: > > Okay guys, once again, I need some advice. > > I've decided to bite the bullet and buy a set of TWM Weber DCNF style > throttle bodies to complete my carb to EFI 308 motor project. The question > is, what size? These throttle bodies come in three sizes, 40mm, 44mm, and > 46mm. At first TWM wanted to sell me a set of the 46mm sizes. Although, I > know that it is supposedly hard to oversize a thottle body, 46mm seemed like > a huge step to me so I questioned them about the fit. It turns out, that > this would be the choice for a racing motor making that would be running > mostly at 4,500 rpm or higher. Part of the reason they at first recommended > this size is because they ran out of the 40mm and 44mm size and it will take > two months to get the other sizes. I told them I could wait two months just > to get the best fit for the car. Are there any experts out there who can > recommend the appropriate size? > > I basically want a hot motor that can be driven on the street but with the > occasional track visit. I guess the safe bet would be to choose the 40mm > unit which will still have more airflow than the stock 40 DCNF carbs, but I > can't help thinking that I might be giving up something by not choosing the > 44mm units. The 44mm unit will also require mild grinding of the intake > manifold for increase in throttle bore diameter. If anyone can give me solid > advice, I'd appreciate it. I can only afford to do this once as they are > expensive. I guess I should have chose a different engine for my first > rebuild project. > > My 308 motor will have the following specs: > > Electromotive TEC II > 10:1 pistons (Want to run 92 unleaded with no additional additives) > 328 crank (2.6mm more stroke over the 308 and displacing about 3.1 L) > Aluminum flywheel/dual disc clutch with sprung hubs > Ported Heads > Upgraded springs and retainers > Camshafts with the following specs > > Intake > Cam Lift: .408" > Duration Adv.: 303 > Duration @050: 262 > Valve Clearance: .008" > Valve Lift: .400" > Cam Lift tdc: 171 > Phase: 105 > > Exhaust > Cam Lift: .408" > Duration Adv.: 303 > Duration @050: 262 > Valve Clearance: .008" > Valve Lift: .400" > Cam Lift tdc: 157 > Phase: NA > > Regards, > Alan Ing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 20:50:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA05295 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:50:14 -0700 Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA05286 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:50:00 -0700 Received: from home.com ([24.251.251.194]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010707034950.HKBW11925.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:49:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3B468702.A17E5E12@home.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:50:26 -0400 From: Rob O X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Howell, Again References: <95.cfc77b1.2877bd05@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Did you check for a crossed o2 sensor by actually swapping sides, either at the ECU end or the sensor end, and running it? Just a thought... maybe not a brilliant one but like all free advice worth every penny you paid for it :) Rob_O Onebil2mny@aol.com wrote: > > OK boys and girls, this is where we have gotten. We installed the new > computer and it fired up fine. A little hesitation at first, but that went > away. I assume this is because the new computer had to learn. Anyway, the > first 100 miles or so went fine, and I thought we had it licked. I thought > wrong. Here are the symptoms, and what I have checked. > > You may recall that this is an LT-4 Corvette motor installed in a 1956 > Chevrolet. The computer (18188021) and harness was purchased from Howell > Engineering. The computer is set up as a speed density system, and uses the > following sensors. > > MAP sensor > MAT sensor > Cam sensor (I assume) from the distributor > (2) O2 sensors (4 wire) > (2) Knock sensors (common wire) > TPS sensor > Coolant Temp. sensor > > The problem is that sometimes, usually during "warm up" as the vehicle goes > into closed loop, the computer will drive one bank so rich as to blow black > smoke from that side of the exhaust. Although it hasn't acted up on the scan > tool recently, the last time it did, the O2 readings were high, while the > pulse width was wide, indicating that the computer was driving that bank > rich. It recently acted up, and set a left side lean exhaust code (44) but I > do not know which side was running rich at that time. > > I have checked for crossed O2 harnesses and they check out. I got a print out > of the pin voltages, and did the requisite checks on the O2 sensors and > everything checks OK, zero volts on the "low" side of the O2 sensor, etc. The > low side does read around 1.5v on the harness side when the sensor is > disconnected, but I see no specification for a disconnected sensor. While my > next step is to start checking ECM grounds, I am hoping that someone else > will have another idea. I am certain the ECM is grounded, and grounded well, > but I am going to check just to be certain. > > Thanks for any input you can send me... This thing is starting to... erm... > well, I'm not real happy with it, that's for certain! > > Shiny Side Up! > Bill K > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jul 6 22:06:49 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA05550 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:06:49 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com (ns3.cybersol.com [209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA05546 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:06:42 -0700 Received: from alfred (tc2-mdm87.cybersol.com [209.172.14.101]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:06:41 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010707010444.006d8ea0@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:04:44 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) In-Reply-To: <3B4629EA.48207EBC@home.com> References: <200107060800.BAA31921@hektor.valesh.com> <3.0.1.32.20010706114602.006fdf0c@smtp.cybersol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In a Mason jar into which I can put C2 MIG welding mix, w/ just a dab of either air or propane. Get all AFRs from 8.0 to 20+. The MIG mix comes in consistantly @ 13.8:1, sort of used it for a benchmark in comparing the FJO controller I bought w/ the DIY-WB setup. Barry At 05:13 PM 7/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >I have to ask, how did you "run it on the bench"? > >Rob_O ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 02:47:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA06401 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 02:47:44 -0700 Received: from mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca [142.177.1.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA06397 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 02:47:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca [142.177.1.6] claimed to be mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca Received: from hostname ([142.177.107.112]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with SMTP id ca for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:46:22 -0300 Message-ID: <001f01c106c9$bd5f0a00$db2ce2d1@expressvu.ca> From: krichar@ns.sympatico.ca (Ken Richardson) To: Subject: '90 GMC Sierra ECM Timing Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:46:45 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello all. I've had some spare time on my hands and decided to do a little tuning on the 5.7L engine in my Sierra. I tried changing the Main Spark Bias from 9.8 to 7.7 using the CATS Engine Tuner to give me 2 degrees more advance. I burnt an EPROM of the CATS modified ASDU image and plugged it in my ECM. When I start the truck I think it runs in "limp in" mode. It starts fine, idle is smooth then very rough, then the engine surges and stalls. No "check engine" light. I've modified the BPW constant successfully before (not using the same source image) so I'm not sure what's going on here. I plugged the EPROM in my burner and read back the program, it is correct, no errors. These are my theories: 1. Can't change the Main Spark Bias in the ASDU image for whatever reason. 2. My ASDU source image is bad. I can try to download the stock chip again. 3. The ECM can't read a Toshiba 2732D EPROM (what I'm using). Has anyone run into this before? What is the likely cause? Would I be better off changing the Main Spark Table instead of the Bias? Thanks Ken Richardson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 06:18:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA06983 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:18:35 -0700 Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA06979 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:18:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host cruzers.com [205.215.232.2] claimed to be blackie.cruzers.com Received: from cruzers.com (robbie-128.cruzers.com [209.165.194.128]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13762 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B4719C1.A3A3D9D7@cruzers.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 06:17:05 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: How to pull parts at a self serve yard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On-topic subject: How to pull parts for an EFI conversion Day 0: Discover a mostly complete Found Off Road Dead truck. No straight body panels, only the tailgate lacks accident damage but it is damaged from being "worked". One broken Twin I- beam and knuckle. Missing seats, carpet, steering column, door glass, fuel pump, TPS, and four injectors. Day 7, 18 hours of work and $500 later: Bare frame (bent & twisted) minus several riveted on brackets, rear bumper (thrashed), receiver hitch (wimpy rating, bent), PS cooling loop (in grease ball), front suspension (mangled). All body panels sent to the crusher. Small pile of parts stashed in the yard. Big pile of parts in my garage. Half full 5 gallon bucket of bolts, also in my garage. Wonder how many man-hours it took the UAW to build this truck... -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 07:12:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA07245 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:12:21 -0700 Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA07241 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:12:15 -0700 From: ECMnut@aol.com Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.e6.17df3db5 (3974) for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:11:32 EDT Subject: Re: How to pull parts at a self serve yard To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 112 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org That gave me visions of slapping horse flies off my face with greasy hands, loosing sockets in the mud, and just plain having a great time while wondering why I didn't take up golf like the dweeb next door. NOOO!.. I'd rather take on a whole nest of wasps just to get a cheap ECM & harness.. Mike V << Day 7, 18 hours of work and $500 later: Bare frame (bent & twisted) minus several riveted on brackets, rear bumper (thrashed), receiver hitch (wimpy rating, bent), PS cooling loop (in grease ball), front suspension (mangled). All body panels sent to the crusher. Small pile of parts stashed in the yard. Big pile of parts in my garage. Half full 5 gallon bucket of bolts, also in my garage. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 07:59:33 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA07483 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:59:33 -0700 Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA07479 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:59:26 -0700 From: Onebil2mny@aol.com Received: from Onebil2mny@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.cf.8d50030 (3942) for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:59:21 EDT Subject: Re: Howell, Again To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In a message dated 07/06/2001 11:51:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjo1@home.com writes: << Did you check for a crossed o2 sensor by actually swapping sides, either at the ECU end or the sensor end, and running it? Just a thought... maybe not a brilliant one but like all free advice worth every penny you paid for it :) >> Actually, with a scan tool installed, I unplugged one O2 sensor, and the appropriate sensor reading went all wrong on the scan tool. At this point though, all suggestions are worth their weight in gold! Thanks! Bill K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 08:42:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA07716 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:42:38 -0700 Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA07712 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:42:31 -0700 From: Onebil2mny@aol.com Received: from Onebil2mny@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.da.8ab2944 (3942) for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:41:54 EDT Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have a question concerning the GM ECM# 18188021... According to the GM manual I am using, both the crank sensor and the cam sensor are used to determine #1 tdc and thus to calculate the computer will calculate the correct sequence with a 1 in 6 chance of getting it wrong. Could the lack of a crank sensor coupled with a bad cam sensor cause this rich on one bank problem I am experiencing? It is a seemingly random condition. Thanks! Bill K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 12:04:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA08402 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:04:55 -0700 Received: from mail.rdc2.bc.home.com (ha1.rdc2.bc.wave.home.com [24.2.10.68]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA08397 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:04:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ha1.rdc2.bc.wave.home.com [24.2.10.68] claimed to be mail.rdc2.bc.home.com Received: from stewartj.vs.shawcable.net ([24.78.127.10]) by mail.rdc2.bc.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010707190437.BFFT11518.mail.rdc2.bc.home.com@stewartj.vs.shawcable.net> for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:04:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c10717$d09bd3c0$0a7f4e18@vs.shawcable.net> From: "John W. Stewart" To: References: Subject: Re: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:05:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bill, Though GM used both crank and cam sensors in 1996 to control timing, I doubt that the lack of a crank sensor will cause this problem. If the cam sensor was bad, you would have erratic running on all cylinders, not just one bank. Since we have no way to know how Howell programmed ECU, it's tough to detrmine if that is the problem. If the car runs fine when cold, and only runs intermittently rich on one bank during closed loop, your most likely culprit is a bad O2 sensor ( not likely, since a code would have been set) or an intermittent connection in the wiring from the sensor to the ECU . Intermittent problems ( whether high or low resistance causing a change in the voltage reading the ECU sees) may not set a code because the duration is to short. If this was the case, you would see the problem you describe, the ECU would lean out that side and set the code for too lean a mixture. As mentioned , you could switch sensors from side to side to see if the problem switches sides. My feeling is the wiring on connectors. Get the VOM out and check the resistances for the O2 wires on the good side, and do the same on the bad side. Providing the wiring lengths are not too dissimilar, they should be close. If one is way off, you know the problem is in the wiring or the connector(s). While you're at it, wiggle the connector pins to see if the values change, if they do, you've found the problem. John S. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor > I have a question concerning the GM ECM# 18188021... According to the GM > manual I am using, both the crank sensor and the cam sensor are used to > determine #1 tdc and thus to calculate the computer will calculate the > correct sequence with a 1 in 6 chance of getting it wrong. Could the lack of > a crank sensor coupled with a bad cam sensor cause this rich on one bank > problem I am experiencing? It is a seemingly random condition. > > Thanks! > Bill K > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 12:58:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA08741 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:58:50 -0700 Received: from siaag1ab.compuserve.com (siaag1ab.compuserve.com [149.174.40.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA08737 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:58:44 -0700 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag1ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id PAA07362 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:57:35 -0400 From: Brian Warburton Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor To: "INTERNET:diy_efi@diy-efi.org" Message-ID: <200107071558_MC3-D870-1119@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id MAA08738 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Lack of crank sensor normally = lack of engine running. There is no way I am aware of to get/keep an engine running without one. Lack of CAM sensor gives the ECU a 1 in 2 chance of getting the synchronisation right, not a 1 in 6. The crank sensor with give the ECU an indication of TDC cylinder-1, just won't say whether it's on the compression TDC or the end-of-exhaust TDC. Brian Warburton (ex-Ford EEC-iv/v team) -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: INTERNET:diy_efi@diy-efi.org, INTERNET:diy_efi@diy-efi.org To: [unknown], INTERNET:diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: 07/07/01 16:58 PM RE: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor I have a question concerning the GM ECM# 18188021... According to the GM manual I am using, both the crank sensor and the cam sensor are used to determine #1 tdc and thus to calculate the computer will calculate the correct sequence with a 1 in 6 chance of getting it wrong. Could the lack of a crank sensor coupled with a bad cam sensor cause this rich on one bank problem I am experiencing? It is a seemingly random condition. Thanks! Bill K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ----------------------- Internet Header -------------------------------- Sender: diy_efi-owner@hektor.valesh.com Received: from hektor.valesh.com (209-79-244-250.dnbonline.com [209.79.244.250]) by spdmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) with ESMTP id LAA17896; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA07716 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:42:38 -0700 Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA07712 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:42:31 -0700 From: Onebil2mny@aol.com Received: from Onebil2mny@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.da.8ab2944 (3942) for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:41:54 EDT Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 15:10:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA09156 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:10:37 -0700 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA09152 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:10:30 -0700 Received: from robs500mhz ([62.255.9.26]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010707221026.CNJZ298.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@robs500mhz> for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:10:26 +0100 Message-ID: <009501c10730$8bd1ed60$1a09ff3e@robs500mhz> From: "purplemonster" To: References: <001601c10717$d09bd3c0$0a7f4e18@vs.shawcable.net> Subject: inlet manifold/plenum chambers Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:02:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I am looking to put a Vauxhall set up on my kit car,but the manifold will not fit and I need to make one as no-one that I know about make such a manifold, how important is flow in a manifold and will it affect the mapping much? dose the volume in the manifold make much difference,? is it better to go bigger or smaller? Rob Mini_Hybrids-subscribe@egroups.com 4_sale-subscribe@egroups.com uk_carparts-subscribe@egroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Stewart" To: Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor > Bill, > > Though GM used both crank and cam sensors in 1996 to control timing, I doubt > that the lack of a crank sensor will cause this problem. If the cam sensor > was bad, you would have erratic running on all cylinders, not just one bank. > > Since we have no way to know how Howell programmed ECU, it's tough to > detrmine if that is the problem. If the car runs fine when cold, and only > runs intermittently rich on one bank during closed loop, your most likely > culprit is a bad O2 sensor ( not likely, since a code would have been set) > or an intermittent connection in the wiring from the sensor to the ECU . > Intermittent problems ( whether high or low resistance causing a change in > the voltage reading the ECU sees) may not set a code because the duration is > to short. If this was the case, you would see the problem you describe, the > ECU would lean out that side and set the code for too lean a mixture. > > As mentioned , you could switch sensors from side to side to see if the > problem switches sides. My feeling is the wiring on connectors. Get the VOM > out and check the resistances for the O2 wires on the good side, and do the > same on the bad side. Providing the wiring lengths are not too dissimilar, > they should be close. If one is way off, you know the problem is in the > wiring or the connector(s). While you're at it, wiggle the connector pins to > see if the values change, if they do, you've found the problem. > > John S. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:41 AM > Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor > > > > I have a question concerning the GM ECM# 18188021... According to the GM > > manual I am using, both the crank sensor and the cam sensor are used to > > determine #1 tdc and thus to calculate the computer will calculate the > > correct sequence with a 1 in 6 chance of getting it wrong. Could the lack > of > > a crank sensor coupled with a bad cam sensor cause this rich on one bank > > problem I am experiencing? It is a seemingly random condition. > > > > Thanks! > > Bill K > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 17:42:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA09624 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:42:44 -0700 Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA09620 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:42:37 -0700 Received: from c157627a ([24.11.247.148]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010708004231.DXDV1573.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c157627a> for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:42:31 -0700 From: "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" To: Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:45:42 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c10747$520953e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200107070800.BAA05993@hektor.valesh.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I called NTK to determine if I could use the Honda sensor with their controller (blue box). I had a chance to buy a used NTK controller for a reasonable price but I didn't want to have to shell out $600 for their WB sensor. Chitose, the Japanese Technical Program Manager stated that the two were not compatible but could not, or would not tell me why. John, in tech support stated that that is their formal position but that he just sold 8 of the Honda version to a NASCAR team to run with their controller. I took a leap of faith, bought the used controller and the Honda sensor. The incompatibility lies in the connector. The NTK connector is different than the Honda. I was provided the burnt out original high dollar sensor with the box so I swapped connectors and cal resistors. Everything is working fine. Glenn. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:48:16 -0700 From: Brian L Massey Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:52:12 -0600 "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" writes: >If you know what vehicle it came out of or have a p/n you > can call > NTK tech support in Michigan, (248) 926-6900, for further > information on > this sensors capabilities. I have received very straight answers > from John > McQuarry (not sure of spelling on last name), unlike the Japanese > counterparts at NTK. Did they say anything about how hard they are to get? I've had one on order from NAPA for almost two months now. The NAPA guy says they are just real scarce. Probably too many of you guys buying them, maybe? I don't think he's just stringing me on or incompatent, cause he shows me the search he pulls up on his computer, and last week there were zip in any of the distribution sites he gets his parts from. BTW, what kinds of things did this guy have to say about the sensors? Any problems or pitfalls?? Tnx. Brian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 20:51:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA10150 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:51:46 -0700 Received: from m24.boston.juno.com (m24.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.87]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA10146 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:51:38 -0700 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"+xb1rTd12SIShQLp0vkqsns0L4vEF0iVV9GyK0vsepMqrImyDbD3rQ=="> Received: (from blocklm@juno.com) by m24.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F9SZFTGN; Sat, 07 Jul 2001 23:50:57 EDT To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:55:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Message-ID: <20010707.205502.143.4.blocklm@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-23,26-29 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Brian L Massey Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:45:42 -0600 "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" writes: > I called NTK to determine if I could use the Honda sensor with their > controller (blue box). I had a chance to buy a used NTK controller > for a > reasonable price but I didn't want to have to shell out $600 for > their WB > sensor. Chitose, the Japanese Technical Program Manager stated that > the two > were not compatible but could not, or would not tell me why. John, > in tech > support stated that that is their formal position but that he just > sold 8 of > the Honda version to a NASCAR team to run with their controller. I > took a > leap of faith, bought the used controller and the Honda sensor. The > incompatibility lies in the connector. The NTK connector is > different than > the Honda. I was provided the burnt out original high dollar sensor > with > the box so I swapped connectors and cal resistors. Everything is > working > fine. OK, thanks a bunch for that. Odd. Boy it seems this whole deal with the WBO2s is very crazy. Did either person say anything about any problems with using either sensor? Tnx. BTW, how did the original sensor get "burnt out"??? Brian ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 21:01:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA10222 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:01:10 -0700 Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA10217 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:01:04 -0700 Received: from cc693406a ([65.11.182.46]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010708040057.SWCC9548.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc693406a> for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:00:57 -0700 Message-ID: <005e01c10762$d42a0e80$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> From: "David Hunt" To: References: <3B4719C1.A3A3D9D7@cruzers.com> Subject: Re: How to pull parts at a self serve yard Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:02:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org According to an NPR report I heard..If it's GM about 14 hours and if it's a ford about 12 hours. Let's see, at $60 per hour loaded (overhead) then that would be about $840. Sure save a lot going to Mexico don't they? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ludis Langens" To: "Diy_efi" Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 9:17 AM Subject: How to pull parts at a self serve yard > On-topic subject: How to pull parts for an EFI conversion > > Day 0: Discover a mostly complete Found Off Road Dead truck. No > straight body panels, only the tailgate lacks accident damage but it is > damaged from being "worked". One broken Twin I- beam and knuckle. > Missing seats, carpet, steering column, door glass, fuel pump, TPS, and > four injectors. > > Day 7, 18 hours of work and $500 later: Bare frame (bent & twisted) > minus several riveted on brackets, rear bumper (thrashed), receiver > hitch (wimpy rating, bent), PS cooling loop (in grease ball), front > suspension (mangled). All body panels sent to the crusher. Small pile > of parts stashed in the yard. Big pile of parts in my garage. Half > full 5 gallon bucket of bolts, also in my garage. > > Wonder how many man-hours it took the UAW to build this truck... > > -- > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 21:08:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA10298 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:08:08 -0700 Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA10294 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:08:01 -0700 Received: from cc693406a ([65.11.182.46]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010708040755.TAHR9548.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc693406a> for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:07:55 -0700 Message-ID: <007201c10763$cd099ac0$2eb60b41@hntsvlle1.al.home.com> From: "David Hunt" To: References: <00a401c105bb$2719a5a0$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <01d801c105a4$13aa7c40$8c29c9d8@bruce> <061201c10662$9b954fe0$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> Subject: Re: egt probe location Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:09:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The gas loss from exhaust port to header flange is on the order of 100 degrees F. The cooling is due to loss through the metal to the air AND gas expansion. Remember that after the header you can hold your hand in the exhaust stream (though not too long and not at WOT.) At the header such things as road speed (and cooling air) greatly change the measurement. BTW head cooling will greatly affect an external sensor too close to the head. Double edged sword, lower measurement temps but lower change in temp. dh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Bromberger" To: Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: egt probe location > If i'm going to have only a single EGT probe on a V8 SBC could i still get > usefull data by mounting it in one of the header collectors? my thought is > that the temps would read lower than if it was mounted right by the head, > but i would still see relative changes (added timing, temp went up, for > example)... and i would also be able to keep tabs on at least half of the > motor vs. only one cylinder... how much do you think the temps would drop > from head to collector on long tube headers? > > thanks, > jeff > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jul 7 21:41:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA10590 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:41:00 -0700 Received: from femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.143]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA10577; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:40:18 -0700 Received: from cc1497a ([24.181.136.103]) by femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010708032340.PJQZ14637.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc1497a>; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c1075f$9f83ff40$677ba8c0@aboite1.in.home.com> From: "Jason Haines" To: "GM_ECM" Cc: "DIY_EFI" Subject: FOR SALE - misc. ECM, PCM, VCM, ECU, ABS modules etc. Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:39:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Sorry about the lack of direct EFI content. Ignore this if you are interested in any used ECM's or other parts. I did it again. I went to an auction for a couple of items and bought more than I should. I bought an entire rack of take out electric fans just so I could have one of the fans (they would only sell them as a lot). I haven't had a chance to catalog the part numbers of the fans. I am also hoping to test all of them and see how much current they draw at 12 volts. I will put them all up on my web site when I am done. I did the same thing on the ECM's. I have posted most of the GM, Chrysler, Ford and miscellaneous other manufacturers ECM, PCM, air bag module, body control module, ABS module, etc. part numbers on my web site. I am just now trying to figure out what they all go to. I figured some people might be interested in them before I get all of the descriptions figured out and put them on ebay. I haven't figured out pricing yet either so just make me an offer. You can go to my forsale stuff at http://members.home.net/jhaines15/forsale.htm Or you can go directly to the ECM's etc. by going to http://members.home.net/jhaines15/efi.htm I also bought a lot of instrument clusters but I haven't put them up on the web site yet (still separating out the good from the bad and then I need to takes pictures of them etc.). Jason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jul 8 02:27:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA11870 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 02:27:14 -0700 Received: from mk-smarthost-1.mail.uk.worldonline.com (mk-smarthost-1.mail.uk.worldonline.com [212.74.112.71]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA11866 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 02:27:06 -0700 Received: from ppp-5-132.5800-3.access.uk.worldonline.com ([62.64.142.132] helo=gw) by mk-smarthost-1.mail.uk.worldonline.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #3) id 15JApr-000NqO-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2001 10:26:39 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c10790$66ed5740$848e403e@gw> From: "Les Newell" To: References: <001601c10717$d09bd3c0$0a7f4e18@vs.shawcable.net> <009501c10730$8bd1ed60$1a09ff3e@robs500mhz> Subject: Re: inlet manifold/plenum chambers Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 10:28:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I don't know about Vauxhall but I did the same thing to a Ford EEC IV setup and increased the chamber volume. The result is a tendency for the engine to hunt at idle and occasionally stall because it takes a lot longer for the engine to respond to any adjustments made by the idle control valve. I think I will have to reduce the volume somehow to stop this happening. Les > I am looking to put a Vauxhall set up on my kit car,but the manifold will > not fit and I need to make one as no-one that I know about make such a > manifold, > > how important is flow in a manifold and will it affect the mapping much? > dose the volume in the manifold make much difference,? is it better to go > bigger or smaller? > > Rob > > Mini_Hybrids-subscribe@egroups.com > 4_sale-subscribe@egroups.com > uk_carparts-subscribe@egroups.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W. Stewart" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor > > > > Bill, > > > > Though GM used both crank and cam sensors in 1996 to control timing, I > doubt > > that the lack of a crank sensor will cause this problem. If the cam sensor > > was bad, you would have erratic running on all cylinders, not just one > bank. > > > > Since we have no way to know how Howell programmed ECU, it's tough to > > detrmine if that is the problem. If the car runs fine when cold, and only > > runs intermittently rich on one bank during closed loop, your most likely > > culprit is a bad O2 sensor ( not likely, since a code would have been set) > > or an intermittent connection in the wiring from the sensor to the ECU . > > Intermittent problems ( whether high or low resistance causing a change in > > the voltage reading the ECU sees) may not set a code because the duration > is > > to short. If this was the case, you would see the problem you describe, > the > > ECU would lean out that side and set the code for too lean a mixture. > > > > As mentioned , you could switch sensors from side to side to see if the > > problem switches sides. My feeling is the wiring on connectors. Get the > VOM > > out and check the resistances for the O2 wires on the good side, and do > the > > same on the bad side. Providing the wiring lengths are not too dissimilar, > > they should be close. If one is way off, you know the problem is in the > > wiring or the connector(s). While you're at it, wiggle the connector pins > to > > see if the values change, if they do, you've found the problem. > > > > John S. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:41 AM > > Subject: Crank Sensor/Cam sensor > > > > > > > I have a question concerning the GM ECM# 18188021... According to the > GM > > > manual I am using, both the crank sensor and the cam sensor are used to > > > determine #1 tdc and thus to calculate the computer will calculate the > > > correct sequence with a 1 in 6 chance of getting it wrong. Could the > lack > > of > > > a crank sensor coupled with a bad cam sensor cause this rich on one bank > > > problem I am experiencing? It is a seemingly random condition. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Bill K > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jul 8 04:55:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA12281 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 04:55:14 -0700 Received: from smtp1.home.se (smtp1.home.se [195.66.35.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA12277 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 04:55:06 -0700 Received: from jurg2kpro [212.75.66.100] by smtp2.home.se with Novonyx SMTP Server $Revision: 2.74 $; Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:51:41 +0200 (ECTD) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:00:27 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000001c10747$520953e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org atible but could not, or would not tell me why. > John, in tech > support stated that that is their formal position but that he > just sold 8 of > the Honda version to a NASCAR team to run with their controller. I took a > leap of faith, bought the used controller and the Honda sensor. The > incompatibility lies in the connector. The NTK connector is > different than > the Honda. I was provided the burnt out original high dollar sensor with > the box so I swapped connectors and cal resistors. Everything is working > fine. I heard that it is the cal resistor that is different in the two versions, also by using the cal resistor from the burnt sensor the controller will think that everything is ok. But the cal resistor is not for the right sensor. The span of the cal resistors in the honda sensor is not the same as those in the original blue box sensors. I think that you at least should check the readings with an other wide band setup. Maybe you are lucky and the reading is right or you will have to use a translation table to get the right value. Maybe you can change the cal resistor value until the readings are correct. Jörgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jul 8 06:55:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA12860 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:55:45 -0700 Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA12856 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:55:38 -0700 Received: from c157627a ([24.11.247.148]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010708135527.VYZG1573.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c157627a> for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:55:27 -0700 From: "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" To: Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 07:58:33 -0600 Message-ID: <000301c107b6$1458f0e0$94f70b18@boise1.id.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200107080800.BAA11459@hektor.valesh.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org No, they brought up no issues. I bought my NTK controller from a tuning shop. One of the mechanics left the unit turned on over night. Although the system self calibrates in air, running continuously in an O2 rich environment burns it out. Also leaded gas will nuke these sensors after 30-50 hours of use. The tuner couldn't afford to keep repllacining sensors at $600 a pop. He switched to a Bosch LSM11 based wideband. Cheaper sensors, more forgiving, but slower response for dyno tuning. Glenn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:55:01 -0700 From: Brian L Massey Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor (redux) On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:45:42 -0600 "Glenn & Debbie Woodhouse" writes: > I called NTK to determine if I could use the Honda sensor with their > controller (blue box). I had a chance to buy a used NTK controller > for a > reasonable price but I didn't want to have to shell out $600 for > their WB > sensor. Chitose, the Japanese Technical Program Manager stated that > the two > were not compatible but could not, or would not tell me why. John, > in tech > support stated that that is their formal position but that he just > sold 8 of > the Honda version to a NASCAR team to run with their controller. I > took a > leap of faith, bought the used controller and the Honda sensor. The > incompatibility lies in the connector. The NTK connector is > different than > the Honda. I was provided the burnt out original high dollar sensor > with > the box so I swapped connectors and cal resistors. Everything is > working > fine. OK, thanks a bunch for that. Odd. Boy it seems this whole deal with the WBO2s is very crazy. Did either person say anything about any problems with using either sensor? Tnx. BTW, how did the original sensor get "burnt out"??? Brian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jul 8 11:14:52 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA13875 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:14:52 -0700 Received: from mail7.triad.rr.com (mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA13871 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:14:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54] claimed to be mail7.triad.rr.com Received: from markrile ([24.163.29.21]) by mail7.triad.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:14:31 -0400 Message-ID: <006501c107d9$f6173be0$151da318@triad.rr.com> From: "Mark S. Riley" To: "diy-efi list" Subject: Honda/NTK O2 sensor/Speed Pro Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:15:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Changing the clutch on a Honda Civic with a turbo'ed GSR engine equipped with a Speed Pro fuel injection system and the O2 has the same numbers and connector on it as the one I got from NAPA under OS-791. Cal resistor is in place and the wiring goes out to it and back to the ecm. Thought it was interesting as we were told by Speed Pro that the sensors had to be calibrated to the system and they want $300.00 for one. Wonder just how this has to be calibrated differently? ;-) Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jul 8 12:13:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA14341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:13:34 -0700 Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id MAA14337 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:13:28 -0700 Received: from adsl-141-155-126-11.bellatlantic.net (HELO note) (141.155.126.11) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2001 19:13:23 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <001401c7c194$43202850$6601a8c0@note> From: "Chris" To: "diy efi" Subject: new subscriber Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:14:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hello all, I am new to the list and I own a 1985 Volkswagen Golf w/vr6 motor using Bosch Motronic engine management. I went to the website for the list and browsed throug the Bosch(and more specifically Motronic) information but didn't find much in the way for custom chip tuning. Can anyone offer some hints to where I should begin my search for burning custom proms for my vehicle. I have Volkswagens interface/diagnostic software and a laptop, where do I go from here? thanks in advance Chris _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 9 04:56:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA18475 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 04:56:23 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f20.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.20]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA18471 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 04:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f20.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.20] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 04:55:47 -0700 Received: from 151.198.174.132 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:55:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.174.132] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: new subscriber Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 07:55:47 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2001 11:55:47.0303 (UTC) FILETIME=[1746DF70:01C1086E] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Chris, I am burning my own chips for a g-60 injection. The actual chip burning itself is simple as anything. I have an EMP10 eprom burner and have had great sucess with it once I started running the software under WIN 98 instead of NT. I am using Atmel 29C256 eproms. Instead of requiring a UV light source to erase it can be done electronically. Sure the prom is more expensive then a regular one, but it's ony like 3 bucks and you can use them again and again. The only thing I can't help you with is the actual maps in a VR6 chip. I was lucky to stumble across a software that maps the tables from the g-60 into nice graphs and all. Unfortunately it only does this for the G-60 and Ford EECIV(or whatever it is). Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have. Justin >From: "Chris" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: "diy efi" >Subject: new subscriber >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:14:50 -0400 > >Hello all, I am new to the list and I own a 1985 Volkswagen Golf w/vr6 >motor >using Bosch Motronic engine management. I went to the website for the list >and browsed throug the Bosch(and more specifically Motronic) information >but >didn't find much in the way for custom chip tuning. Can anyone offer some >hints to where I should begin my search for burning custom proms for my >vehicle. I have Volkswagens interface/diagnostic software and a laptop, >where do I go from here? thanks in advance > >Chris > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 9 10:24:35 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA20289 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:24:35 -0700 Received: from mx.spiritone.com (mx.spiritone.com [205.139.108.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA20285 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:24:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 26424 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 17:24:22 -0000 Received: (ofmipd 207.202.132.9); 9 Jul 2001 17:24:00 -0000 Date: 9 Jul 2001 10:24:19 -0700 Message-ID: <005a01c1089b$fd473560$2b01a8c0@lap03> From: "Eric Aos" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Here's a couple of different ones... Pop Hot Roddings from '93, and Car Crafts from '82 Eric > > a few years ago in Popular Hot Rodding, they showed a DIY flow > bench that seemed pretty simple to build. I have half the article > somewhere, but not the full monty. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Hunt [mailto:bamainc@home.com] > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:01 PM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > > > > Barry, > > > > In response to your question, I haven't seen any air flow > > rate benches. I > > have been thinking along the same lines as you. A vacuum > > source could be > > controlled by using the vacuum signal as feed back to a motor > > controller. > > The flow could be measured by something like a MAF sensor. > > This deluxe > > system could be relatively accurate from system to system. > > > > Also, A good vacuum source shouldn't be necessary if the > > differential vacuum > > is held between input and output the power required to hold > > the differential > > pressure between input and output would indicate the flow. > > While sort of > > repeatable from run to run, it might not be repeatable > between setups. > > > > Other ideas would be helpful. > > > > dh > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barry Tisdale" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:20 AM > > Subject: DIY flowbench? > > > > > > > Anyone done anything in thid area? I just broke rings or > > lands in my Sy > > > engine's #1 cylinder, which I hear is notorious for this. > > Was thinking of > > > a vacuum cleaner applied to the port side each passage of the bare > > manifold > > > & measuring vacuum produced there. Could use a manometer > > or a MAP sensor; > > > idea is to equalize flow between runers. > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > Thanks - Barry > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > > (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 9 18:17:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA23812 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:17:20 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (law2-oe52.hotmail.com [216.32.180.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA23808 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:17:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host law2-oe52.hotmail.com [216.32.180.50] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:16:43 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [4.60.84.146] From: "Jason Wade" To: References: Subject: Re: new subscriber Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:13:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2479.0006 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2479.0006 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2001 01:16:43.0026 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAB84720:01C108DD] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I would love to see the eprom graphs for the eec iv, which ones do you have and how hard is it to set up for burning thanks in advance...Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin ivan" To: Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:55 AM Subject: Re: new subscriber > Chris, > I am burning my own chips for a g-60 injection. The actual chip burning > itself is simple as anything. I have an EMP10 eprom burner and have had > great sucess with it once I started running the software under WIN 98 > instead of NT. I am using Atmel 29C256 eproms. Instead of requiring a UV > light source to erase it can be done electronically. Sure the prom is more > expensive then a regular one, but it's ony like 3 bucks and you can use them > again and again. > The only thing I can't help you with is the actual maps in a VR6 chip. I was > lucky to stumble across a software that maps the tables from the g-60 into > nice graphs and all. Unfortunately it only does this for the G-60 and Ford > EECIV(or whatever it is). > Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have. > Justin > > > >From: "Chris" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: "diy efi" > >Subject: new subscriber > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:14:50 -0400 > > > >Hello all, I am new to the list and I own a 1985 Volkswagen Golf w/vr6 > >motor > >using Bosch Motronic engine management. I went to the website for the list > >and browsed throug the Bosch(and more specifically Motronic) information > >but > >didn't find much in the way for custom chip tuning. Can anyone offer some > >hints to where I should begin my search for burning custom proms for my > >vehicle. I have Volkswagens interface/diagnostic software and a laptop, > >where do I go from here? thanks in advance > > > >Chris > > > > > >_________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 9 20:14:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA25715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:14:20 -0700 Received: from smtp010.mail.yahoo.com (smtp010.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.30]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id UAA25700 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:14:04 -0700 Received: from adsl-141-155-11-64.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net (HELO note) (141.155.11.64) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2001 03:14:03 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <000601c7c2a0$9395ea60$6501a8c0@note> From: "Chris" To: References: Subject: Re: new subscriber Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 23:15:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org cool to see a fellow vw owner on the list. thanks for the info, unfortuneately G60's use digifant which is vw's own engine management, i think the bosch motronic will be quite different. where did you get started? do you monitor your car while youre driving it and then map the curves accordingly? thanks for any help ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin ivan" To: Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:55 AM Subject: Re: new subscriber > Chris, > I am burning my own chips for a g-60 injection. The actual chip burning > itself is simple as anything. I have an EMP10 eprom burner and have had > great sucess with it once I started running the software under WIN 98 > instead of NT. I am using Atmel 29C256 eproms. Instead of requiring a UV > light source to erase it can be done electronically. Sure the prom is more > expensive then a regular one, but it's ony like 3 bucks and you can use them > again and again. > The only thing I can't help you with is the actual maps in a VR6 chip. I was > lucky to stumble across a software that maps the tables from the g-60 into > nice graphs and all. Unfortunately it only does this for the G-60 and Ford > EECIV(or whatever it is). > Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have. > Justin > > > >From: "Chris" > >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >To: "diy efi" > >Subject: new subscriber > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:14:50 -0400 > > > >Hello all, I am new to the list and I own a 1985 Volkswagen Golf w/vr6 > >motor > >using Bosch Motronic engine management. I went to the website for the list > >and browsed throug the Bosch(and more specifically Motronic) information > >but > >didn't find much in the way for custom chip tuning. Can anyone offer some > >hints to where I should begin my search for burning custom proms for my > >vehicle. I have Volkswagens interface/diagnostic software and a laptop, > >where do I go from here? thanks in advance > > > >Chris > > > > > >_________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jul 9 20:16:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA25788 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:16:57 -0700 Received: from mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA25731; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:14:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50] claimed to be mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au Received: from optushome.com.au ([203.164.163.212]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010710031449.EZIN22932.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@optushome.com.au>; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:14:49 +1000 Message-ID: <3B4A73BD.F0D0C134@optushome.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:17:17 +1000 From: Richard Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gmecm@diy-efi.org CC: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi All, We have created a newer version of our old web site. Here is the new one. http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) to take the WB signal and in the process have discovered that the good old single wire O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let me know what you think of the logs. TIA Cheers Richard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 00:02:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA27420 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:02:26 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA27416 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:02:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00311 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:14:58 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B4AA916.B5176327@techedge.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:04:54 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB References: <3B4A73BD.F0D0C134@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Richard Wakeling wrote: > > http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net > > We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) to take the WB > signal and in the process have discovered that the good old single wire > O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let me know what > you think of the logs. Very interesting Richard. What sensor/electronics are you using for your WB measurements. I assume the O2 sensor is a standard GM/Bosch part? You say, in the HTML, that ... > The engine at this point has a very bad miss and shows as a sudden lean > spot due to a cylinder of air entering the exhaust at that moment. I thought that if you get an IGN misfire, then you'd get a rich indication rather than a lean reading, or am I missing something? Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 00:29:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA27673 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:29:18 -0700 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA27665 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:29:09 -0700 Received: from richm ([62.255.10.130]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010710072906.IJVB298.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@richm> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:29:06 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:12:59 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3B4AA916.B5176327@techedge.com.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Peter, A rich misfire will put a cylinder of oxygen and fuel into the exhaust - as the O2 sensor is only sensitive to oxygen and not fuel, it will see a huge quantity of excess oxygen and hence a lean reading. Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Peter Gargano > Sent: 10 July 2001 08:05 > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB > > > Richard Wakeling wrote: > > > > http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net > > > > We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) to take the WB > > signal and in the process have discovered that the good old single wire > > O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let me know what > > you think of the logs. > > Very interesting Richard. What sensor/electronics are you using for your > WB measurements. I assume the O2 sensor is a standard GM/Bosch part? > > You say, in the HTML, that ... > > > The engine at this point has a very bad miss and shows as a sudden lean > > spot due to a cylinder of air entering the exhaust at that moment. > > I thought that if you get an IGN misfire, then you'd get a rich indication > rather than a lean reading, or am I missing something? > > Peter. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 01:26:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA28154 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:26:11 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (oe17.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.121]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA28149 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:26:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oe17.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.121] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:25:28 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.166.197.90] From: "944Technologist" To: References: Subject: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:25:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2001 08:25:28.0795 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0791AB0:01C10919] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 cylinder engine? Does anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a high performance 4 cylinder? FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 02:29:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA28547 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:29:34 -0700 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@17dyn5.com21.casema.net [213.17.87.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA28543 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host IDENT:root@17dyn5.com21.casema.net [213.17.87.5] claimed to be localhost.localdomain Received: from wanadoo.nl (IDENT:arnaud@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01885 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:23:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3B4ABB90.2FD5B5FB@wanadoo.nl> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:23:44 +0200 From: Arnaud Westenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY-EFI mailing list Subject: 'EFI technology' and books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi list, I've been lurking for quite some time but I think I'll become more involved now. I'll introduce myself at the end of the message. Our race car (VW Golf) is equiped with the 'Euro96' from 'EFI technology'. As I was looking for more information, I found myself addressing the wrong company, it seems that there are two 'EFI technology's'. (www.efitechnology.com and www.efitechnology.it) First, is anyone familiar with the Euro96 system and cares to comment on it's application in a race car? I'm unable to find much usefull info on the system so all comments are appreciated! I'm interested in things like reliability, performance, data logging, reprogramming, etc. Second, are you guys familiar with either of the 'EFI technology' companies and willing to comment on them? I'm also looking for a decent FI book. I checked the list on the diy-efi site but nearly all books are system specific. I'd prefer an advanced system independent text book to get up to speed with efi as soon as possible. Hartman, Jeff, Fuel injection - Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications, ISBN 0-87938-743-2 is rated quite good but in the 'Amazon' review it is also described as system specific. Is anyone familiar with (re)programming the Magnetti Marelli MT940 dashboard? I'm interested in it's features and thought I ask this list before contacting Magnetti Marelli. Is there a standard distribution scheme for CAN-bus message id's for all efi systems or is this system specific? The car is equipped with a '2D datarecording' lap timing measurement system. This Infrared receiver/transmitter combo uses a code to distinguish itself from other laptiming triggers used by other teams. Since we don't have the transmitter (pitlane side) I'm investigating the possibility of building my own transmitter. Can anyone tell me more about this 'code' or the system before I disassemble the receiver? I'm a 27 years old mechanical engineering student at the Technical University of Delft in the Netherlands. I'm the teammanager of a race team competing with a vw golf in a Dutch TouringCar championship. I've been wrenching for many years now and worked on my programming skills for the last couple of years. I really like this list and I'm sure I will continue to enjoy reading it for a long time. Best regards, Arnaud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 02:42:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA28641 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:42:57 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f64.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.64]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA28637 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:42:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host f64.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.64] claimed to be hotmail.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:42:19 -0700 Received: from 157.130.78.254 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:42:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [157.130.78.254] From: "justin ivan" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:42:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2001 09:42:19.0019 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C6175B0:01C10924] Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org That's a really generic question but I'll do the best I can. I have run as high as 40 def adv on a 2.0L VW watercooled motor with lowered compression (~9.0:1 or so) >From: "944Technologist" >Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: Maximum advance >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:25:52 -0700 > >What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 cylinder engine? Does >anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a high performance 4 >cylinder? > >FR Wilk >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 03:30:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id DAA28910 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:30:16 -0700 Received: from web11501.mail.yahoo.com (web11501.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.46]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id DAA28906 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: <20010710103009.79604.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.146.151.161] by web11501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:30:09 PDT Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:30:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Matousek Subject: Re: Maximum advance To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org As a backyard tinkerer I use to set the advance by idle as far as it begins to knock, then couple of degrees back. This gives you the best performance and economy. When you like to go further then use water injection - this way you can go almost twice the advance. Each car can handle diferent: my Pug205 high compresion can go up to 15 deg BTDC, but after water injection to 28 deg BTDC - great power. Peter --- 944Technologist wrote: > What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 > cylinder engine? Does > anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a > high performance 4 > cylinder? > > FR Wilk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 04:27:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA29145 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:27:11 -0700 Received: from spdmraab.compuserve.com (ds-img-rel-2.compuserve.com [149.174.206.155]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA29141 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:27:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ds-img-rel-2.compuserve.com [149.174.206.155] claimed to be spdmraab.compuserve.com Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmraab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id HAA11316 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from HOMEXXL (fra-pci-laj-vty17.as.wcom.net [212.211.72.17]) by spdmraab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id HAA11301 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003601c10933$0c6f3000$1148d3d4@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:25:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 cylinder engine? Very hard to tell as it depends on many thing, like compression ratio, fuel octane rating, air temperature, combustion chamber shape, bore diameter, location of the spark plug, engine cooling, just to name a few. I believe there is no universal "formula", the answer will be different for every engine so you have to find out by experimentation, but be *very* careful, it can quickly become costly :-) Above all, remember you absolutely, definitely can't hear high speed knock *at all* from inside the car. Said high speed knock could destroy your engine in a matter of seconds. Good luck, Axel 400hp Cosworth YBT Two sets of melted pistons to back his claims ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 04:44:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA29299 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:44:21 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA29295 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:44:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00342 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:56:55 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B4AEB2B.26C3D614@techedge.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:46:51 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Rich M wrote: > > A rich misfire will put a cylinder of oxygen and fuel into the exhaust - as > the O2 sensor is only sensitive to oxygen and not fuel, it will see a huge > quantity of excess oxygen and hence a lean reading. Thanks Rich! Another way to think of it is as is show here: http://www.technocarb.com/o2.htm http://www.technocarb.com/tio2.htm ...where it's the oxygen partial pressure that's important, rather than the fuel content, as I was thinking. Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 07:07:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA30284 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:07:41 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA30279 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:07:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id WAA09115 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:06:18 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpd0syxbi; Tue Jul 10 14:06:09 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6AE5jv22587 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:05:45 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107101405.f6AE5jv22587@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: from 944Technologist at "Jul 10, 2001 01:25:52 am" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:05:44 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org 944Technologist tapped away at the keyboard with: > What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 cylinder engine? > Does anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a high > performance 4 cylinder? That's primarily determined by the engine geometry (crank throw and conrod length - and cylinder offset if applicable) and ignition speeds; how long it takes to ignite. There's a point of advance beyond which the pressure buildup due to combustion is too early, reducing the effectiveness of the crank. Mixture has some effect on the time it takes to ignite and as to the flame speed and hence pressure buildup. Typical ignition times are around the millisecond, flame speeds around 60 m/s. These in themselves are independent of engine speed. You can therefore determine the required advance for engine crank torque from the integral of instantaneous torque over the power stroke. Well, at least in theory... As a major limiting factor; there's the need to avoid detonation. Detonation will scour the protective boundary layers off the cylinder walls; and in particular the piston top, exposing the surfaces to temperature extremes. The optimum advance for maximum torque should be the target; use of water injection, charge-air conditioning by humidification, higher octane fuel and lower cylinder temperatures are just some means of reducing propensity to detonate. One can also use a richer mixture. The use of (perhaps cooled, or even internal) EGR, like those measure mentioned, also slows the burn. Airflow effects such as swirl are speed-dependent; the swirl speeds are typically of the same order of magnitude as flame speeds. Swirl exposes a larger flame front to the end gas. That reduces the propensity to knock, possibly for a number of reasons; larger flame-front area reduces the concentration of energy; the volume of end-gas subjected to secondary compression is reduced more rapidly and hence less likely to detonate; etc. These are just a few variables. And the variation in some is usually out of your control; water vapour content for example can alter the octane number requirement by 10 points or more. [Rule of thumb is that 4g of water per kg of air is worth one octane point.] The starting point is to work out the optimum advance based on engine geometry, nominal breathing and nominal fuelling characteristics. Then watch for detonation and if detected, retard, while trying to manipulate other factors so that you can get back to optimum for a particular mixture. If you want a "safe" advance curve, then you need to retard ignition until the piston speed is such that the advancing flame front doesn't cause excessive secondary compression. This will be determined by the dimensions of the engine. You won't nett very much power from the engine. There's still the possibility of knock with lean mixtures so you need to maintain adequate fuelling. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 08:07:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA30998 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:07:43 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA30990; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:07:34 -0700 Received: from [206.99.139.8] (account ) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro WebUser 3.4.6) with HTTP id 23664470; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:07:28 -0400 From: "rr" Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org, gmecm@diy-efi.org X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.6 Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:07:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3B4A73BD.F0D0C134@optushome.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org What WB system are you using? It is interesting to note how much the narrow band (NB) O2 will move from stoich while the actual AFR has moved very little. Is the WB sensor after a cat-con? I've found that the NB hardly detects a misfire while the WB shows it very well. BobR. On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:17:17 +1000 Richard Wakeling wrote: > Hi All, > We have created a newer version of our old web site. > Here is the new one. > http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net > We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) > to take the WB > signal and in the process have discovered that the good > old single wire > O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let > me know what > you think of the logs. > > TIA > Cheers Richard > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 09:18:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA31799 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:18:42 -0700 Received: from web13908.mail.yahoo.com (web13908.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.71]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id JAA31795 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: <20010710161834.42906.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.213.150.18] by web13908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:18:34 EDT Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:18:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcel Chichak remote account Subject: Re: Maximum advance To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <200107101405.f6AE5jv22587@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I was playing around with distributors and the whole advance curve thing bothered me. Seems to be either a well guarded secret, black magic or the guys that make after market distributors and write tuning books are just full of poo. I did a whole bunch of testing on my distributor machine ($100 at a garage auction) then went to the university library to do research. The University of Alberta doesn't have a lot of new books on automotive engineering (our MechE dept is more HVAC than automotive) but I found enough information so that it made sense to me. Of course I'm a Civil Engineer...;-) I compiled what I found and plunked it up on my web page http://www.planet.eon.net/ under tech pages...Ignition advance curve requirements. Keep in mind it's a first cut draft. ===== -- Marcel chichak remote account - go here http://www.planet.eon.net/~chichm _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 10:28:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA32325 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:28:47 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA32321 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:28:40 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15K1JP-000JDk-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:28:39 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: WB Instruments Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:31:59 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <20010710161834.42906.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. Thanks. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 12:01:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00607 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:01:38 -0700 Received: from cyberbuzz.gatech.edu (oobleck.gatech.edu [130.207.165.225]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA00597 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:01:29 -0700 From: gte861v@prism.gatech.edu X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host oobleck.gatech.edu [130.207.165.225] claimed to be cyberbuzz.gatech.edu Received: from horton.gatech.edu (horton.gatech.edu [130.207.165.227]) by cyberbuzz.gatech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4888A10AFC for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by horton.gatech.edu (Postfix, from userid 48) id 475CD30CC; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:01:10 -0400 (EDT) To: diy_efi Subject: Measuring VE Message-ID: <994791670.3b4b50f627263@horton.gatech.edu> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:01:10 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Cyberbuzz GT Web Email Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Would it be possible to measure the Volumetric Efficiency on an engine using a correctly calibrated MAF sensor? I have been pondering this idea. I have an engine dyno on which to do the measuring and a wind tunnel and the appropriate hardware to accurately calibrate a MAF sensor so why couldn't I measue the VE of the engine? All that I would have to do is at a certain RPM measure the air flow, calculate what it should be based on that displacement at that RPM and do the percentage. Is there something I have forgotten or could this be a valuable way to accurately set my VE tables. Thanks, Scott Flanagan GT Motorsports Powertrain Leader www.me.gatech.edu/gtmotorsports/ Georgia Institute of Technology Mechanical Engineering Undergraduate ------------------------------------------------- Sent through Cyberbuzz- A Server for the Students http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 12:03:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00667 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:03:51 -0700 Received: from tiberius.bright.net (tiberius.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA00661 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:03:41 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.31]) by tiberius.bright.net with SMTP id <20010710190339.DUUB892.tiberius@bruce> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:03:39 -0400 Message-ID: <00aa01c10973$0b96b640$1f0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> Subject: Re: WB Instruments Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:03:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dammeyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: WB Instruments > > I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 > sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but > something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for > calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are > some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. > > Thanks. > > John > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 12:04:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00699 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:04:45 -0700 Received: from lateralus.bright.net (lateralus.bright.net [205.212.123.70]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA00689 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:04:35 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.31]) by lateralus.bright.net with SMTP id <20010710190433.DIZP333.lateralus@bruce> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:04:33 -0400 Message-ID: <00ab01c10973$2b81cb20$1f0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> Subject: Re: WB Instruments Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:04:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org For a resonably priced WB, this is who I'd suggest Bob Bailey E-mail Address(es): bob@bailey-eng.com Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dammeyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: WB Instruments > > I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 > sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but > something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for > calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are > some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. > > Thanks. > > John > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 12:48:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA01307 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:48:38 -0700 Received: from tiberius.bright.net (tiberius.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA01300 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:48:30 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.31]) by tiberius.bright.net with SMTP id <20010710194829.EHZR892.tiberius@bruce> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:48:29 -0400 Message-ID: <015401c10979$4ee7ee40$1f0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:48:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Under light cruise with a lean mode maybe 48d. Maybe. The better the engine design the less you need at WOT. Bruce From: "944Technologist" Subject: Maximum advance > What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 cylinder engine? Does > anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a high performance 4 > cylinder? > FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 13:23:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA01873 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:23:51 -0700 Received: from tiberius.bright.net (tiberius.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA01869 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:23:44 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.31]) by tiberius.bright.net with SMTP id <20010710202343.ETPX892.tiberius@bruce> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:23:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01e101c1097e$3a9bc1a0$1f0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: <3B4A73BD.F0D0C134@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:23:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'd like to see what the resolution is like for a v8 at 6,500 rpm. I've had a scope on a NTK WB, and the resolution was many times what your showing. It also looks alot like something else I've seen on the market, but I'm no getting in the middle of a discusion like that. If this is a DIY Scanner for a resonable price, then I'd say it's a good thing. But, anything more then that I'd have serious reservations about it. Bruce From: "Richard Wakeling" Subject: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB > We have created a newer version of our old web site. > Here is the new one. http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net > We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) to take the WB > signal and in the process have discovered that the good old single wire > O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let me know what > you think of the logs. > TIA > Cheers Richard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 14:07:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA02176 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:07:16 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com (ns3.cybersol.com [209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA02172 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:07:09 -0700 Received: from alfred (tc2-mdm66.cybersol.com [209.172.14.80]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:07:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010710141557.006d9e08@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:15:57 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: WB Instruments In-Reply-To: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> References: <20010710161834.42906.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Try www.fjoinc.com - just got one of their units, very nice, inexpensive. Barry At 10:31 AM 7/10/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 >sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but >something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for >calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are >some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. > >Thanks. > >John > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 14:26:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA02327 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:26:38 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA02319 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:26:29 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15K51Y-000N1x-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:26:28 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: Measuring VE Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:29:48 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <001001c10987$72a47520$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <994791670.3b4b50f627263@horton.gatech.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, To my understanding that's a good way to do it. However, if you are planning on using a MAF sensor for the injection control the VE value is somewhat redundant other than for information collection for manifild construction and tuning. It's really only needed for the MAP style controllers if they aren't completely table driven. Cheers, John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of > gte861v@prism.gatech.edu > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:01 PM > To: diy_efi > Subject: Measuring VE > > > Would it be possible to measure the Volumetric Efficiency on > an engine using a > correctly calibrated MAF sensor? I have been pondering this > idea. I have an > engine dyno on which to do the measuring and a wind tunnel > and the appropriate > hardware to accurately calibrate a MAF sensor so why couldn't > I measue the VE > of the engine? All that I would have to do is at a certain > RPM measure the air > flow, calculate what it should be based on that displacement > at that RPM and do > the percentage. Is there something I have forgotten or could > this be a > valuable way to accurately set my VE tables. Thanks, > > > > Scott Flanagan > GT Motorsports Powertrain Leader > www.me.gatech.edu/gtmotorsports/ Georgia > Institute of > Technology Mechanical Engineering Undergraduate > > ------------------------------------------------- > Sent through Cyberbuzz- A Server for the Students http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 14:33:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA02396 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:33:31 -0700 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id OAA02390 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:33:23 -0700 Received: from 157.54.9.108 by mail3.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:30:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.70]) by inet-imc-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:32:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:32:21 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Maximum advance Thread-Index: AcEJK/soTr/18ifDSpqiqgy3ge3RNAAW6qJg From: "Dave Plummer" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2001 21:32:22.0321 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDED7210:01C10987] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hektor.valesh.com id OAA02391 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org More isn't better. The more advance you have, the more the piston is working against rising cylinder pressure on the upstroke. What you want is a peak cylinder pressure at a particular point in the downstroke that provides the best leverage on the crank. No more, no less. If you could somehow accomplish that with zero advance, you'd have the best of all worlds. - Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Matousek [mailto:pegoalf@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:30 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Maximum advance > > > As a backyard tinkerer I use to set the advance by > idle as far as it begins to knock, then couple of > degrees back. This gives you the best performance > and economy. When you like to go further then use > water injection - this way you can go almost twice > the advance. Each car can handle diferent: my Pug205 > high compresion can go up to 15 deg BTDC, but after > water injection to 28 deg BTDC - great power. > > Peter > --- 944Technologist wrote: > > What is the maximum advance that is safe for a 4 > > cylinder engine? Does > > anyone have a Timing Advance versus RPM graph for a > > high performance 4 > > cylinder? > > > > FR Wilk > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 15:17:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA02886 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:17:02 -0700 Received: from femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.85]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA02882 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:16:56 -0700 Received: from electron ([24.3.251.94]) by femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010710221653.LHXQ18992.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@electron> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01e401c1098f$15807d00$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> From: "Jeff Bromberger" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:24:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org i agree in theory.. but why don't we see race teams running 0 degrees of timing and 75 octane gas... with the much lower octane the burn rate will increase and you should reach your peak cyl pressure around 10 degrees after tdc... conversely, if you run 118 octane and have 35 degrees of advance you'll still hit peak pressure at the same crank angle... (numbers are arbitrary, but i'm asking the general question, why do people go towards more advance and slower burn vs. the opposite?)... > More isn't better. The more advance you have, the more the piston is > working against rising cylinder pressure on the upstroke. What you want > is a peak cylinder pressure at a particular point in the downstroke that > provides the best leverage on the crank. No more, no less. If you > could somehow accomplish that with zero advance, you'd have the best of > all worlds. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 16:08:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA03370 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:08:13 -0700 Received: from james.dev.auctionwatch.com (host1.auctionwatch.com [64.14.25.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA03361 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:08:03 -0700 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by james.dev.auctionwatch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07086 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:06:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: james.dev.auctionwatch.com: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@james.dev.auctionwatch.com To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <01e401c1098f$15807d00$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Lower octane does not equal higher burn rate. Octane is strictly a measure of resistance to detonation. Lower octane fuels TEND to burn faster, but this isn't true in all cases. Anything you can do to increase detonation resistance is a good thing, since it allows a higher compression ratio, which means greater thermal efficiency. If the price of higher compression is more spark advance, so be it. Racing teams also can't just use any fuel they feel like. Low buck teams have to use what they can afford (pump gas), high buck teams have to use what the rules makers allow them to use. There's a certain amount of inertia there. Racers can be (and the successful ones usually are) as conservative as anyone else. I suspect current practice strikes a reasonable balance between flame speed and knock prevention. As an aside, Keith Duckworth used to say that he considered any engine that could acheive mean best torque with less than 30 degrees of advance to be a good engine, and less than 25 degrees to be an exceptional engine. The DFV typically ran best with 28 degrees on the fuels used when it was introduced. james montebello On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jeff Bromberger wrote: > i agree in theory.. but why don't we see race teams running 0 degrees of > timing and 75 octane gas... with the much lower octane the burn rate will > increase and you should reach your peak cyl pressure around 10 degrees after > tdc... conversely, if you run 118 octane and have 35 degrees of advance > you'll still hit peak pressure at the same crank angle... (numbers are > arbitrary, but i'm asking the general question, why do people go towards > more advance and slower burn vs. the opposite?)... > > > > > More isn't better. The more advance you have, the more the piston is > > working against rising cylinder pressure on the upstroke. What you want > > is a peak cylinder pressure at a particular point in the downstroke that > > provides the best leverage on the crank. No more, no less. If you > > could somehow accomplish that with zero advance, you'd have the best of > > all worlds. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 16:40:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA03656 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:40:43 -0700 Received: from mailout1-hme0.midsouth.rr.com (mailout1-hme0.midsouth.rr.com [24.165.200.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA03652 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:40:36 -0700 Received: from chick (HubW-mcr-24-95-119-136.midsouth.rr.com [24.95.119.136]) by mailout1-hme0.midsouth.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f6ANeP018637 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:40:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <020d01c10999$820e3520$0400a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> From: "Jurgen Hartwig" To: References: <01e401c1098f$15807d00$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:39:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Ok, so that begs the question: Who has bought one of the Optrand in-cylinder pressure transducers? If you installed one, this would allow you to determine the correct ignition advance, correct? Optrand wants like $200 to install a sensor into a spark plug, and some extra dough for the interface. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. Seems like it would be a good tool for setting up modified engines with different internals. Regards, jay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 16:51:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA03803 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:51:28 -0700 Received: from mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA03799 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:51:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host ha1.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au [203.164.2.50] claimed to be mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au Received: from optushome.com.au ([203.164.163.212]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010710235113.TQRQ22932.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@optushome.com.au> for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:51:13 +1000 Message-ID: <3B4B958A.8BD1F55C@optushome.com.au> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:53:46 +1000 From: Richard Wakeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB References: <3B4A73BD.F0D0C134@optushome.com.au> <3B4AA916.B5176327@techedge.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi Peter, Peter Gargano wrote: > Richard Wakeling wrote: > > > > http://www.dickselectronics.cjb.net > > > > We have been modifying our DST (diagnostic scan tool) to take the WB > > signal and in the process have discovered that the good old single wire > > O2 is capable of reading individual cylinders. Please let me know what > > you think of the logs. > > Very interesting Richard. What sensor/electronics are you using for your > WB measurements. I assume the O2 sensor is a standard GM/Bosch part? The Sensor is the NTK 5 wire coupled to a self modified diy-uego. A life time of electronics has certainly helped. The NB O2 is the standard single wire GM unit. > > > You say, in the HTML, that ... > > > The engine at this point has a very bad miss and shows as a sudden lean > > spot due to a cylinder of air entering the exhaust at that moment. > > I thought that if you get an IGN misfire, then you'd get a rich indication > rather than a lean reading, or am I missing something? Rich M answered this well. Thanks Rich. Cheers Richard. > > > Peter. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 17:07:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA04104 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:07:41 -0700 Received: from perama01.erggroup.com (perama01.erggroup.com [203.23.26.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA04095 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:07:20 -0700 Subject: RE: Logs of individual cyl with O2+WB To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: "Dan Zorde" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:05:19 +0800 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on aupera03/ERG_Group(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 11/07/2001 08:05:25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I can veryify that with a practical example (this happened to me). No 7cyl on my SBC, burnt the spark plug hood on the lead, resulting in it sparking through the hood and onto the extractors every now and again. However what caught me out was the fact that the O2 kept showing up as very lean, hence after having ruled out ignition problems (only did it when heavily loaded up, and it felt like a clogged injector) I went through the usual of checking fuel pressure and cleaning injectors. It was actually pure luck I saw a small black spot on the spark plug hood (had already resistance checked all leads previously and replaced one suspect lead) as I was removing no7 plug to see if it had fouled. Now everything is OK after I replaced that hood and put some heat wrapping on it for good measure. Dan dzorde@erggroup.com Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA04208 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:14:11 -0700 Received: from sisko.awpi.com (root@awpi.com [204.241.40.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA04201 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@awpi.com [204.241.40.2] claimed to be sisko.awpi.com Received: from michalk (win95.awpi.com [204.241.40.10]) by sisko.awpi.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA01847 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:13:57 -0500 From: "Brian Michalk" To: Subject: RE: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:23:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <020d01c10999$820e3520$0400a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If one were to use an Optrand sensor for Peak Pressure, and detonation detection, would one need to instrument every cylinder, or would a single cylinder be sufficient? I would lean towards the every cylinder gets a sensor solution if you had something like the Haltech where each injector duty cycle could be tweaked. I think the ignition is fixed relative cylinder to cylinder, so that wouldn't be a controllable variable. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and SINGLE! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Jurgen Hartwig > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 6:39 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Maximum advance > > > Ok, so that begs the question: > > Who has bought one of the Optrand in-cylinder pressure transducers? > > If you installed one, this would allow you to determine the > correct ignition > advance, correct? > > Optrand wants like $200 to install a sensor into a spark plug, and some > extra dough for the interface. I don't know the numbers off the top of my > head. Seems like it would be a good tool for setting up modified engines > with different internals. > > Regards, > jay > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 17:57:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA05272 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:57:16 -0700 Received: from tiberius.bright.net (tiberius.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA05268 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:57:09 -0700 Received: from bruce ([216.201.10.31]) by tiberius.bright.net with SMTP id <20010711005708.HUMC892.tiberius@bruce> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:57:08 -0400 Message-ID: <032401c109a4$6cc4ae00$1f0ac9d8@bruce> From: "Bruce" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:57:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Maybe one sensor, and then try it one cylinder at a time?. then use best average if no individual cylinder trim. Bruce From: "Brian Michalk" Subject: RE: Maximum advance > If one were to use an Optrand sensor for Peak Pressure, and detonation > detection, would one need to instrument every cylinder, or would a single > cylinder be sufficient? > I would lean towards the every cylinder gets a sensor solution if you had > something like the Haltech where each injector duty cycle could be tweaked. > I think the ignition is fixed relative cylinder to cylinder, so that > wouldn't be a controllable variable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 18:03:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA05393 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:03:54 -0700 Received: from eagle.he.net (eagle.he.net [216.218.174.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA05388 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:03:45 -0700 Received: from localhost (skulte@localhost) by eagle.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA17516 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:03:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:03:25 -0700 (PDT) From: skulte To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <020d01c10999$820e3520$0400a8c0@midsouth.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jurgen Hartwig wrote: > Who has bought one of the Optrand in-cylinder pressure transducers? As soon as I can find myself a good Data Aq. card, I'm going to get one. I spoke to some of their engineers at SAE, and it seems pretty fail safe. The problem is that I'm too cheap - the new motor will have AL heads, not iron, so it'll use a different spark plug, and I'd rather not burn up $200 for the next month. > If you installed one, this would allow you to determine the correct ignition > advance, correct? Sure, among other things like fuel maps, and you could probably analytically get rid of the small things like the minute tip-in stumble I have, etc... > > Optrand wants like $200 to install a sensor into a spark plug, and some > extra dough for the interface. I don't know the numbers off the top of my > head. Seems like it would be a good tool for setting up modified engines > with different internals. The module was $600, IIRC. If anyone has it, I'd love to hear feedback. Andris 89 Z28tt http://www.skulte.com/turbo.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 18:26:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA05888 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:26:47 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA05882 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:26:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id JAA11005 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:26:31 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpdTAdpNg; Wed Jul 11 01:26:30 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6B1QTv25669 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:26:29 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107110126.f6B1QTv25669@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: from Dave Plummer at "Jul 10, 2001 02:32:21 pm" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:26:28 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Dave Plummer tapped away at the keyboard with: > More isn't better. The more advance you have, the more the piston > is working against rising cylinder pressure on the upstroke. What > you want is a peak cylinder pressure at a particular point in the > downstroke that provides the best leverage on the crank. No more, > no less. If you could somehow accomplish that with zero advance, > you'd have the best of all worlds. Zero advance would only be valid if the mixture is ignited either instantaneously, or if the pressure developed in such a way as to maximise the total torque produced during the whole power stroke. The effectiveness of converting that pressure into torque depends on the crank geometry; rod length and crank throw, as well as cylinder offset if applicable. At 6000 rpm, the engine completes the power stroke in 5 milliseconds. The ignition delay; to get the mixture to start burning; is around 1 millisecond (dependent on engine design and varies with AFR). That's 36 degrees *before* any combustion pressure develops. At mid-crank, the piston speed (6000rpm) is about the same as that of the flame front, so there'll be little increase in pressure (approximately!) at mid-travel. After that point, the mechanical efficiency of the crank will decrease (give or take a few degrees, depending on precise geometry). Most of the pressure build-up must therefore be produced before that time; i.e. within 2.5 milliseconds ATDC The highest pressures are developed when the initial flame is propagating into the minimum volume. Flame speed is constant for a given mixture so the 50mm or so from the spark plug to the most-extreme wall must be travelled as quickly as possible. You really do want the mixture to start burning at TDC (ignoring possible engine damage for now). The 2 milliseconds or so it takes for the flame to travel to the cylinder wall is a considerable time. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 18:34:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA06054 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:34:10 -0700 Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA06049 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:34:02 -0700 From: Moofaloof@aol.com Received: from Moofaloof@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id o.12f.1370a28 (16336) for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <12f.1370a28.287d06df@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:33:19 EDT Subject: Re: WB Instruments To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org John, If you get some information from Bruce's reference to Bob@Bailey-eng.com, would you please post it to the list or send it to me offlist - I'm interested in seeing what is available compared to the FJO guys who seem to have the cheapest unit right now. jc ------------ Try www.fjoinc.com - just got one of their units, very nice, inexpensive. Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 18:47:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA06300 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:47:43 -0700 Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA06296 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:47:34 -0700 Received: from cr938302ac ([24.42.104.73]) by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010711014718.GRR8388.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@cr938302ac> for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:47:18 -0700 Message-ID: <009e01c109ab$8664dfe0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> From: "Chris Capowski" To: References: Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:48:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org A friend of mine has built the one that was shown in Pop Hot Rod, works quite well, but you need a lot of vaccum cleaner motors (he uses 10). I will see if I can scrounge up the plans. Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 8:17 AM Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? > a few years ago in Popular Hot Rodding, they showed a DIY flow > bench that seemed pretty simple to build. I have half the article > somewhere, but not the full monty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 21:44:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA07664 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:44:02 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA07660 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:43:55 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KBqs-000EEM-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:43:54 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:47:15 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <001401c109c4$8ee3ac50$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <009e01c109ab$8664dfe0$0200a8c0@cr938302ac> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I'd look at using a sawdust collection system without the bags. Those centrifugal blowers are rated in CFM so it should be pretty easy to spec in a 650cfm or 1000cfm dust collector that can spend most of it's time keeping the wood working shop safe and part of the time serving as a major vac source. John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Chris Capowski > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 6:48 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > A friend of mine has built the one that was shown in Pop Hot > Rod, works quite well, but you need a lot of vaccum cleaner > motors (he uses 10). I will see if I can scrounge up the plans. > > Chris "Mighty Mouse" Capowski > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shirley, Mark R" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 8:17 AM > Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? > > > > a few years ago in Popular Hot Rodding, they showed a DIY > flow bench > > that seemed pretty simple to build. I have half the article > somewhere, > > but not the full monty. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the > subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jul 10 23:37:00 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA08215 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:37:00 -0700 Received: from deborah.paradise.net.nz (deborah.paradise.net.nz [203.96.152.32]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA08211 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:36:53 -0700 Received: from workstation.bryant.net (203-79-102-17.tnt14.paradise.net.nz [203.79.102.17]) by deborah.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with SMTP id 26FE71FA080 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:36:47 +1200 (NZST) From: Tony Bryant To: Subject: Learning in MAP systems. Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:37:22 +1200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01071118372200.01134@workstation.bryant.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I understand how learning can be acheived in a MAF system (i.e. airflow range divided into buckets, a particular bucket pushed in the right direction when a oxy cross point is noticed) What I don't yet fully appreciate is how can one practically acheive the same thing in a MAP system? It seems that since you now have fuelling tables with a 2D domain, instead of the 1D domain with MAF, you've got a hell of alot of buckets to learn in. What are some useful technqiues to make sure you don't end up with a map with a couple of learnt points and lots of default points? Am I missing something obvious here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 04:35:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA09430 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:35:20 -0700 Received: from web10904.mail.yahoo.com (web10904.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.40]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id EAA09426 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: <20010711113504.94376.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.246.35.243] by web10904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:35:04 PDT Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:35:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY flowbench, vac source To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <200107110800.BAA08668@hektor.valesh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Another good cheap source is leaf blowers. If you don't have a noise problem, use gas power, else electric. Pick 'em up cheap at yard sales, etc. Carter >I'd look at using a sawdust collection system without >the bags. Those centrifugal blowers are rated in CFM >so it should be pretty easy to spec in a 650cfm or >1000cfm dust collector that can spend most of it's >timekeeping the wood working shop safe and part of >the time serving as a major vac source. > >John __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 04:45:28 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA09537 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:45:28 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA09533 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:45:20 -0700 Received: from [206.99.139.8] (account ) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro WebUser 3.4.6) with HTTP id 23774144 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:45:19 -0400 From: "rr" Subject: Re: Maximum advance To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.6 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:45:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org I've also been thinking about a pressure transducer. It seems like it would be to SA what a WB O2 is to AFR. Should be able to tune the SA to best pressure. And be able to see how close to too much SA the engine is running. If you can keep us informed on your findings it will be much appreciated. BobR. On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:03:25 -0700 (PDT) skulte wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jurgen Hartwig wrote: > > Who has bought one of the Optrand in-cylinder pressure > transducers? > > As soon as I can find myself a good Data Aq. card, I'm > going to get > one. I spoke to some of their engineers at SAE, and it > seems pretty fail > safe. The problem is that I'm too cheap - the new motor > will have AL > heads, not iron, so it'll use a different spark plug, and > I'd rather not > burn up $200 for the next month. > > > If you installed one, this would allow you to determine > the correct ignition > > advance, correct? > > Sure, among other things like fuel maps, and you could > probably > analytically get rid of the small things like the minute > tip-in stumble I > have, > etc... > > > > > Optrand wants like $200 to install a sensor into a > spark plug, and some > > extra dough for the interface. I don't know the > numbers off the top of my > > head. Seems like it would be a good tool for setting > up modified engines > > with different internals. > > The module was $600, IIRC. If anyone has it, I'd love to > hear feedback. > > Andris > 89 Z28tt > http://www.skulte.com/turbo.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 05:15:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA09865 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:15:38 -0700 Received: from master.adams.com (master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA09861 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:15:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53] claimed to be master.adams.com Received: from adams.com (IDENT:root@srvr8.adams.com [192.9.200.19]) by master.adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01097 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adams.com (rigel [192.168.22.210]) by adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06799 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:15:05 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4C4348.172A7A28@adams.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:15:05 -0400 From: Eric Fahlgren Organization: Mechanical Dynamics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? References: <001401c109c4$8ee3ac50$0100a8c0@telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org John Dammeyer wrote: > > I'd look at using a sawdust collection system without the bags. Those > centrifugal blowers are rated in CFM so it should be pretty easy to spec > in a 650cfm or 1000cfm dust collector that can spend most of it's time > keeping the wood working shop safe and part of the time serving as a > major vac source. I've considered using a leaf blower to power one, they can pull quite a vacuum. One of my kids used on once to build a wind tunnel of sorts for model rockets. -- Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 05:48:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA10065 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:48:29 -0700 Received: from firewall.etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA10061 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:48:21 -0700 Received: from [151.110.126.63] by firewall.etn.com via smtpd (for 209-79-244-250.dnbonline.com [209.79.244.250]) with SMTP; 11 Jul 2001 12:48:21 UT Received: by cleohsex03.etn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3406NZLD>; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Shirley, Mark R" To: "'diy_efi@diy-efi.org'" Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:45:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Why not use a couple of big furnace blowers? They move a lot of air. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Fahlgren [mailto:efahl@adams.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:15 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > John Dammeyer wrote: > > > > I'd look at using a sawdust collection system without the > bags. Those > > centrifugal blowers are rated in CFM so it should be pretty > easy to spec > > in a 650cfm or 1000cfm dust collector that can spend most > of it's time > > keeping the wood working shop safe and part of the time serving as a > > major vac source. > > I've considered using a leaf blower to power one, they can pull > quite a vacuum. One of my kids used on once to build a wind > tunnel of sorts for model rockets. > > -- > Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc > efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 06:55:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA10514 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:55:20 -0700 Received: from smtpgw.bnl.gov (mail@smtpgw.bnl.gov [130.199.3.16]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA10508 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:55:08 -0700 Received: from bnl.gov ([130.199.128.163]) by smtpgw.bnl.gov with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 ) id 15KKSI-0007IX-00 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:55:06 -0400 Received: from inst911 (inst911.ags.bnl.gov [130.199.100.93]) by bnl.gov (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA12009 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010711095505.00cb6be0@exchange01.bnl.gov> X-Sender: rschroeder@exchange01.bnl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:55:05 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Ron Schroeder Subject: RE: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org At 02:32 PM 7/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >More isn't better. The more advance you have, the more the piston is >working against rising cylinder pressure on the upstroke. What you want >is a peak cylinder pressure at a particular point in the downstroke that >provides the best leverage on the crank. No more, no less. If you >could somehow accomplish that with zero advance, you'd have the best of >all worlds. > >- Dave Hi Dave, Would this also be the point of minimum bsfc or are the two not quite related? Ron Schroeder WD8CDH E. E. S. wd8cdh@bnl.gov rjs@bnl.gov ron@112motors.com 631 344-4561 Day 631 286-5677 Nite ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 08:33:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA11089 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:33:26 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA11082 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:33:15 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KLzG-0003KI-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:33:14 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:36:35 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <000301c10a1f$452d1190$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Furnace Blowers use a squirrel cage impellor which don't work well under load. Their performace drops dramatically as either the intake or exhaust is blocked. For example I am now using centrifugal blower for my foundry furnace after changing from using an identically sized squirrel cage which I found didn't have enough oomph. The centrifigual unit also runs at half the RPM. (as an aside I melt 4 lbs of Aluminum using propane in about 13 minutes.) I'd also look at drawing air from the cylinder head side rather than blowing from the throttle plate side which is why I suggested the sawdust extraction system. John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Shirley, Mark R > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:46 AM > To: 'diy_efi@diy-efi.org' > Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? > > > Why not use a couple of big furnace blowers? They move a lot of air. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eric Fahlgren [mailto:efahl@adams.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:15 AM > > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: DIY flowbench? > > > > > > John Dammeyer wrote: > > > > > > I'd look at using a sawdust collection system without the > > bags. Those > > > centrifugal blowers are rated in CFM so it should be pretty > > easy to spec > > > in a 650cfm or 1000cfm dust collector that can spend most > > of it's time > > > keeping the wood working shop safe and part of the time > serving as a > > > major vac source. > > > > I've considered using a leaf blower to power one, they can > pull quite > > a vacuum. One of my kids used on once to build a wind > tunnel of sorts > > for model rockets. > > > > -- > > Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc > > efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > > (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the > subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 09:18:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA11453 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:18:08 -0700 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA11447 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:18:01 -0700 Received: from richm ([62.255.9.52]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010711161753.ZXJI288.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@richm> for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:17:53 +0100 From: "Rich M" To: Subject: RE: DIY flowbench? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:15:20 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000301c10a1f$452d1190$0100a8c0@telus.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > I'd also look at drawing air from the cylinder head side rather than > blowing from the throttle plate side which is why I suggested the > sawdust extraction system. > > John > I think most Pro flowbenches (eg Superflow) tend to draw air through the head/inlet instead of blowing through - I haven't stopped to think what the pro's and con's are of either method. Rich ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 13:11:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA12930 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:11:53 -0700 Received: from kitkat.hotpop.com (kitkat.hotpop.com [204.57.55.30]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA12926 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:11:45 -0700 Received: from hotpop.com (unknown [204.57.55.31]) by kitkat.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C664F31668 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:11:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jacky (lsanca1-ar10-068-098.biz.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.68.98]) by zagnut.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BED850055 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:10:16 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <011201c10a46$11215470$170101c0@yoshimura.com> From: "Jack" To: References: Subject: question about CDI and regular ignition Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:12:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, Got a question about regular ignition and CDI ignition. What is the main difference between a regular coil and a CDI coil? From a ohm meter, the CDI coil seems to have a lot less resistence (hence higher current/voltage??) Also, the driving signals seems to be a lot different. What type of signal (voltage/current) is required to drive CDI coil? Really appriciate if anyone can give me some insight in this subject. Thanks, Jack ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 15:44:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA13873 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:44:45 -0700 Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA13868 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:44:35 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010711224423.TIVW21541.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:44:23 -0700 Message-ID: <012a01c10a74$48908740$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:45:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jurgen Hartwig wrote: > > Who has bought one of the Optrand in-cylinder pressure transducers? > > As soon as I can find myself a good Data Aq. card, I'm going to get > one. I spoke to some of their engineers at SAE, and it seems pretty fail > safe. The problem is that I'm too cheap - the new motor will have AL > heads, not iron, so it'll use a different spark plug, and I'd rather not > burn up $200 for the next month. > > > If you installed one, this would allow you to determine the correct ignition > > advance, correct? > > Sure, among other things like fuel maps, and you could probably > analytically get rid of the small things like the minute tip-in stumble I > have, > etc... > > > > > Optrand wants like $200 to install a sensor into a spark plug, and some > > extra dough for the interface. I don't know the numbers off the top of my > > head. Seems like it would be a good tool for setting up modified engines > > with different internals. > > The module was $600, IIRC. If anyone has it, I'd love to hear feedback. > > Andris > 89 Z28tt > http://www.skulte.com/turbo.html > Kistler would be another option for such spark plug transducers. If you are going to go the route of a transducer(s) and a DAQ system of sufficient quality to suit, then why not go one step further and add a crank angle resolver/encoder to one of the DAQ channels. Then you could programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together with the crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) diagram for a given cylinder. Then you would have a good visual representation of the entire cylinder experience, including peak combustion pressures and phasing of same. The number of things you can deduce from a PV diagram are endless. Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 16:08:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA14208 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:08:44 -0700 Received: from eagle.he.net (eagle.he.net [216.218.174.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA14203 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:08:37 -0700 Received: from localhost (skulte@localhost) by eagle.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA25761 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:08:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:08:43 -0700 (PDT) From: skulte To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <012a01c10a74$48908740$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Walter Sherwin wrote: > Kistler would be another option for such spark plug transducers. True, but they are just about an order of magnitude more expensive - $2k plus per sensor, I thought. > quality to suit, then why not go one step further and add a crank angle > resolver/encoder to one of the DAQ channels. Then you could > programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together with the > crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) diagram for a given > cylinder. That's the plan! I figure catching detonation would at least be step one :) A. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 16:30:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA14559 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:30:58 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA14552 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:30:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00298 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:42:43 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B4CE24F.B6E4F2CB@techedge.com.au> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:33:35 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor References: <200107040800.BAA10529@hektor.valesh.com> <3.0.1.32.20010705102706.006cb22c@smtp.cybersol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Regarding the sensor to buy for: http://diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/diy_egor/ Barry Tisdale wrote: > > The sensor is still available @ the "old" price - $117 - bought mine a > couple of months back, but the price is unchanges, I just checked. > > www.thepartsbin.com > > 92-95 Honda Civic, P/N 36531-P07-003 Bosch # 13246 The part mentioned above is, as mentioned by Bruce, available from hparts.com for US$219: http://www.hparts.com/part_lookup.php3?partno=36531-P07-003&submit2.x=56&submit2.y=7 .. and, as mentioned by Barry, from the partsbin.com for US$117: http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/partsbin/quote.jsp?product=36531-P07-003&Submit=GO&partner=partsbin&action=search&cart=&partnerSession=++&usemake= So, $117 (free UPS ground shipping) compared with $219 (we'll add freight to your order). Is this really the same part? Anyone have a lower price? Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 19:06:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA15394 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:06:11 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA15390 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:06:02 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KVrc-00061w-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:06:01 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: question about CDI and regular ignition Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:09:23 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <001001c10a77$ab959ee0$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <011201c10a46$11215470$170101c0@yoshimura.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org There are essentially 3 different types of coils out there. 1. 8V volt coil used on older cars with a series ballast resistor which was switched out during cranking. This meant that during cold weather or a flat battery there would still be sufficient spark. Once the starter switch is released the ballast resistor is put back in the circuit and the coil runs on 13.8V. These coils worked really well with the older transistor ignition (A power transistor was switched by the points and this lowered the current and therefore arcing and subsequent point damage.) These coils also worked well with the CD ignitions of the time. Delta made one and Radio Shack remarked it as an Archer Kit in the early 70's. It ran a ~15KHz oscillator generating about 300V which charged up a cap. An SCR triggered by the points dumped the 300V from the cap into the coil. Hence Capcitive Discharge Ignition. It had a button on the side which switched out the CDI an dran on the conventional points. You could hear the whine of the unit so you knew when it worked. 2. Standard 12V coil without ballast driven by a CD ignition similer to the one above. Note that SAAB (now GM) has a patent on a paraticular method of creating the 300V to dump into the capacitor. They even go as far as to charge the cap during the part of the engine cycle when the start motor has the least amount of load. Real cool. 3. Low resistance coils. These are the latest now that semiconductor technology has improved. These coils (like the FORD quad or hex) have an extrememly low resistance and would draw more than 100 Amps before they resembled toast. The driver circuit limits the current to a defined value (10A I think) just before the coil needs to fire the spark plug. The secondary of the these coils are connected not as an autotransformer like standard coils but each end of the winding goes to a spark plug. The current goes from the center electrode of one plug to the outer electrode and the cylinder head. It then jumps from the outer electrode to the center electrode of the other plug and back into the coil. Called waste spark, it is said to clean the sparkplug during the exhaust stroke. Yeah right... What it does is save a transitor for each pair of cylinders and that is good thing. Hope that helps. Cheers, John Dammeyer > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:12 PM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: question about CDI and regular ignition > > > Hi, > > Got a question about regular ignition and CDI ignition. What > is the main difference between a regular coil and a CDI coil? > From a ohm meter, the CDI coil seems to have a lot less > resistence (hence higher current/voltage??) > > Also, the driving signals seems to be a lot different. What > type of signal > (voltage/current) is required to drive CDI coil? > > Really appriciate if anyone can give me some insight in this subject. > > Thanks, > > Jack > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the > subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 19:51:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA15651 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:51:13 -0700 Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA15647 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:50:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11] claimed to be cgpro.iccx.net Received: from [206.168.145.89] (HELO [206.168.145.89]) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 63632680 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:50:37 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:53:17 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Maximum advance Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org The number of things you can deduce from a PV diagram are endless. > >Walt. > AMEN!!!! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 20:18:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA15854 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:18:41 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA15850 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:18:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00329 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:30:31 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B4D17B2.93989771@techedge.com.au> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:21:22 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: question about CDI and regular ignition References: <001001c10a77$ab959ee0$0100a8c0@telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org John Dammeyer wrote: > > Called waste spark, it is said to clean the sparkplug during the > exhaust stroke. Yeah right... I hadn't heard that piece of marketing before. 8^)! Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 20:45:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA16097 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:45:12 -0700 Received: from localhost.localdomain (c1607941-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.12.63.203]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA16084 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:44:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (jamesm@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6C3gYU00326 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:42:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jamesm owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:42:34 -0700 (PDT) From: James Montebello X-Sender: jamesm@localhost.localdomain To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: RE: question about CDI and regular ignition In-Reply-To: <001001c10a77$ab959ee0$0100a8c0@telus.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, John Dammeyer wrote: > Called waste spark, it is said to clean the sparkplug during the > exhaust stroke. Yeah right... What it does is save a transitor for each > pair of cylinders and that is good thing. Saves a transistor, and is also much easier to trigger with a fully electronic crank-triggered system, requiring half as many triggers and coil driver circuits. Has been used almost universally on motorcycle engines for 20 years. james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 21:58:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA16535 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:58:09 -0700 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA16530 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:58:00 -0700 Received: from l-koutz (1Cust111.tnt3.valdosta.ga.da.uu.net [63.39.136.111]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06504 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005201c10a8f$34356480$6f88273f@l-koutz> From: "Larry Koutz" To: Subject: Re: question about CDI and regular ignition Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:57:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org John This letter you wrote was very informative. I would like to know what Voltage/ current it takes to "fire" a waste spark ignition. And maybe a little more on how they work and are triggered. Thanks! Larry Koutz -----Original Message----- From: John Dammeyer To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: RE: question about CDI and regular ignition >There are essentially 3 different types of coils out there. > >1. 8V volt coil used on older cars with a series ballast resistor which >was switched out during cranking. This meant that during cold weather >or a flat battery there would still be sufficient spark. Once the >starter switch is released the ballast resistor is put back in the >circuit and the coil runs on 13.8V. > >These coils worked really well with the older transistor ignition (A >power transistor was switched by the points and this lowered the current >and therefore arcing and subsequent point damage.) > >These coils also worked well with the CD ignitions of the time. Delta >made one and Radio Shack remarked it as an Archer Kit in the early 70's. >It ran a ~15KHz oscillator generating about 300V which charged up a cap. >An SCR triggered by the points dumped the 300V from the cap into the >coil. Hence Capcitive Discharge Ignition. It had a button on the side >which switched out the CDI an dran on the conventional points. You >could hear the whine of the unit so you knew when it worked. > >2. Standard 12V coil without ballast driven by a CD ignition similer to >the one above. Note that SAAB (now GM) has a patent on a paraticular >method of creating the 300V to dump into the capacitor. They even go as >far as to charge the cap during the part of the engine cycle when the >start motor has the least amount of load. Real cool. > >3. Low resistance coils. These are the latest now that semiconductor >technology has improved. These coils (like the FORD quad or hex) have >an extrememly low resistance and would draw more than 100 Amps before >they resembled toast. The driver circuit limits the current to a >defined value (10A I think) just before the coil needs to fire the spark >plug. The secondary of the these coils are connected not as an >autotransformer like standard coils but each end of the winding goes to >a spark plug. The current goes from the center electrode of one plug to >the outer electrode and the cylinder head. It then jumps from the outer >electrode to the center electrode of the other plug and back into the >coil. > >Called waste spark, it is said to clean the sparkplug during the >exhaust stroke. Yeah right... What it does is save a transitor for each >pair of cylinders and that is good thing. > >Hope that helps. > > >Cheers, > > >John Dammeyer > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org >> [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jack >> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:12 PM >> To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >> Subject: question about CDI and regular ignition >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Got a question about regular ignition and CDI ignition. What >> is the main difference between a regular coil and a CDI coil? >> From a ohm meter, the CDI coil seems to have a lot less >> resistence (hence higher current/voltage??) >> >> Also, the driving signals seems to be a lot different. What >> type of signal >> (voltage/current) is required to drive CDI coil? >> >> Really appriciate if anyone can give me some insight in this subject. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jack >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------- >> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" >> (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the >> subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org >> >> >> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jul 11 23:45:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA17064 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:45:14 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA17060 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:45:03 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KaDe-000MlQ-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:45:02 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: question about CDI and regular ignition Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:48:25 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <001601c10a9e$a69297a0$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005201c10a8f$34356480$6f88273f@l-koutz> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > John > This letter you wrote was very informative. Thanks. > > I would like to know what Voltage/ current it takes to "fire" > a waste spark ignition. And maybe a little more on how they > work and are triggered. > Can't help you there. The aftermarket devices that were intended for retrofitting into points style systems were designed for a contact opening to do the firing. This is when a normal coil fires too so they were designed to be compatible. The traditional CDI normally uses an inverter to create 300V to 400V from 12V. With modern toroids and switching power supply devices I expect to see the frequency of these devices climb into the >100KHz range. Still though, they have to provide enough energy during the 'off' time to deliver between 85mj and 120mj. I've used 1.5uF and about 325V which results in 85mj as I recall. This implies a short pulse to fire and an off time to recharge the capacitor. I've never been able to measure the open circuit voltage on the output but obviously the turns ratio on the coil determines that ultimately. For example. If a 12V coil is designed to produce 24Kv then the ratio is 2000:1. Assuming 300V into that same primary doesn't damage the coil the implication is the voltage could reach 600KV. Of course it never gets there as the spark starts at about 15KV to 20KV across a 0.032" gap and at that point the voltage stops increasing. I've seen spikes as high as 40KV but 99% of the time 20KV seems to be as high as it gets unless the plugs are really fouled. To drive a black box will depend on the manufacturers specs. If it's opto-coupled for a 12V input you can usually expect 12V at 20ma to 40ma. If it's a DC input it could be just straight 12V or else 5V logic voltage. I'd even guess that there are some units out there that take a magnetic reluctance input from a crank trigger which is adjusted for maximum advance (say 35 degrees) and depending on RPM delays the coil trigger from 0 degrees to 22 degrees. I've also heard some units have a vacuum input to do a vacuum retard. Best I can do here. John Dammeyer > Thanks! > > Larry Koutz > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Dammeyer > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:06 PM > Subject: RE: question about CDI and regular ignition > > > >There are essentially 3 different types of coils out there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 04:12:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA18223 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:12:59 -0700 Received: from web11501.mail.yahoo.com (web11501.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.46]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id EAA18219 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:12:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20010712111245.57575.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [136.1.1.101] by web11501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:12:45 PDT Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:12:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Subject: Re: Max Advance To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <200107120800.BAA17377@hektor.valesh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi all On the subject of max ignition angle, I agree that nmore is not better for power, reliability or anything else. Basically the time a cylinder needs for complete combustion of the fuel is constant, you want max pressure developed on the piston (BMEP) just after TDC and therefore as the engine speed increases you need to start combustion earlier so as this can be achieved. This is a very simple explanation of why you need to use ignition advance. Improving the efficiency of combustion and reducing the burn time will allow less ignition advance to be used. This objectives can be achieved by running richer fuel air mixtures, increasing turbulence within the cylinder, using higher compression ratios and smaller bore sizes with more cylinders to achieve the required capacity among others. Hope this helps thanks Roy ( Spectric's Ltd UK ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 04:23:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA18293 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:23:53 -0700 Received: from master.adams.com (master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA18288 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:23:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53] claimed to be master.adams.com Received: from adams.com (IDENT:root@srvr8.adams.com [192.9.200.19]) by master.adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29932 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adams.com (rigel [192.168.22.210]) by adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10692 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4D88AE.49C05C2F@adams.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:23:26 -0400 From: Eric Fahlgren Organization: Mechanical Dynamics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance References: <012a01c10a74$48908740$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together with the > crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) diagram for a given > cylinder. Then you would have a good visual representation of the entire > cylinder experience, including peak combustion pressures and phasing of > same. The number of things you can deduce from a PV diagram are endless. Are there other useful diagrams of this sort? I'm thinking of a (just made this up) PQ diagram where Q = cos(a) * sin(b) a = angle between rod and bore centerline, as the rod aligns with the bore, this goes to 1.0 b = angle between rod and crank throw, as the rod/crank angle goes to 90d this goes to 1.0 which describes the vector component of the pressure that is actually doing useful work (or so it seems to me). The Q term is interesting in and of itself, so I think I'll write a little plotter that produces a bunch of curves for various rod/stroke ratios (and maybe with bore offsets, too). -- Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 04:50:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id EAA18568 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:50:15 -0700 Received: from master.adams.com (master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA18561 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53] claimed to be master.adams.com Received: from adams.com (IDENT:root@srvr8.adams.com [192.9.200.19]) by master.adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02023 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adams.com (rigel [192.168.22.210]) by adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12301 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:49:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4D8EE4.3F25D29E@adams.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:49:56 -0400 From: Eric Fahlgren Organization: Mechanical Dynamics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Max Advance References: <20010712111245.57575.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Roy wrote: > Basically the time a cylinder needs for complete > combustion of the fuel is constant, you want max > pressure developed on the piston (BMEP) just after TDC > and therefore as the engine speed increases you need > to start combustion earlier so as this can be > achieved. This is a very simple explanation of why > you need to use ignition advance. Well, it's not quite so simple. What you really want to do is maximize the integral of the PQ curve (see my mail from 10 minutes ago), however you can. After running a couple of thought simulations using the old meat computer, I think this means that you _probably_ want the pressure in the cylinder at maximum when the rod-to-crank angle is about 90d for engines with big L (rod/stroke ratio), but probably a little earlier in the stroke as L gets smaller. (You can tell by all the "probablys" and "I thinks" that I'm sure about this. :) -- Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 05:07:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA18762 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:07:15 -0700 Received: from smtp1.home.se (smtp1.home.se [195.66.35.200]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA18757 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:07:07 -0700 Received: from jurg2kpro [212.75.64.251] by smtp2.home.se with Novonyx SMTP Server $Revision: 2.74 $; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:03:34 +0200 (ECTD) From: =?us-ascii?Q?Jorgen_Karlsson?= To: Subject: RE: Maximum advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:12:29 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > That's the plan! I figure catching detonation would at least be step one > :) > Detonation is easier to detect with a knock microphone then with in cylinder pressure logging. But a knock microphone is a bit too sensitive, the knock is more or less harmless until it shows up on the pressure graph. But I guess the last part is pretty obvious... Jorgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 05:38:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA18945 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:38:53 -0700 Received: from web10908.mail.yahoo.com (web10908.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.44]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA18941 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:38:38 -0700 Message-ID: <20010712123837.57278.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.246.35.243] by web10908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:38:37 PDT Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:38:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #663 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <200107120800.BAA17377@hektor.valesh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:48:25 John Dammeyer wrote: >I've never been able to measure the open circuit >voltage on the output but obviously the turns ratio >on the coil determines >that ultimately. I use an old TV HV probe, modified with a BNC connector, and a flying lead with a ground clip. Hooks right onto my O-scope. Lot's of interesting things can be observed. Disconnect one of the plug leads on a waste spark setup, watch what happens to the other side. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 05:51:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19039 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:51:23 -0700 Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id FAA19035 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:51:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11] claimed to be cgpro.iccx.net Received: from [206.168.145.115] (HELO [206.168.145.115]) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 63734459 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:51:05 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:53:45 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Another use for a waste (maverick) spark coil?? Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org >>I've never been able to measure the open circuit >>voltage on the output but obviously the turns ratio >>on the coil determines >that ultimately. > >I use an old TV HV probe, modified with a BNC >connector, and a flying lead with a ground clip. Hooks >right onto my O-scope. > >Lot's of interesting things can be observed. > >Disconnect one of the plug leads on a waste spark >setup, watch what happens to the other side. > >Carter > Which leads me to wonder-- Hmmmm!!??!! I wonder whether using a two lead (waste spark) coil, but not in the usual waste spark manner (only firing one plug) might be an excellent beginning for an ION measuring device?? Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 06:33:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id GAA19305 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:33:51 -0700 Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA19301 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:33:45 -0700 Received: from electron ([24.3.251.94]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010712133341.NDRG25177.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@electron> for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01a001c10ad8$90bfff00$0500a8c0@intranet.inductionindustries.com> From: "Jeff Bromberger" To: References: <20010712111245.57575.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> <3B4D8EE4.3F25D29E@adams.com> Subject: Re: Max Advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:42:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org According the Reher-Morrison's (pro stock engine builders) research, maximum power is made when maximum cylinder pressure occurs at 10-20 degrees ATDC... on their motors (500ci big blocks) this takes between 30-40 degrees of advance to achieve... just another data point... > > Well, it's not quite so simple. What you really want to do is > maximize the integral of the PQ curve (see my mail from 10 minutes > ago), however you can. After running a couple of thought simulations > using the old meat computer, I think this means that you _probably_ > want the pressure in the cylinder at maximum when the rod-to-crank > angle is about 90d for engines with big L (rod/stroke ratio), but > probably a little earlier in the stroke as L gets smaller. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 07:16:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA19546 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:16:09 -0700 Received: from sisko.awpi.com (root@awpi.com [204.241.40.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA19542 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:16:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host root@awpi.com [204.241.40.2] claimed to be sisko.awpi.com Received: from despav (ip219.austin20.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.31.161.219]) by sisko.awpi.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA11124 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:15:55 -0500 From: " Brian Michalk" To: Subject: RE: Max Advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:15:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <3B4D8EE4.3F25D29E@adams.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org While at the big EAA flyin at Oshkosh last year, I visited as many technical forums as possible. One of the most novel developments was a system by GAMI, a company well known for its injector technology. Well, what they did was develop a system that used modified spark plugs to sense cylinder pressure, and then servoed the ignition timing appropriately. Their research was based on some SAE papers, and their own experience; and they found the best performance with a peak pressure pulse between 13 and 15 degrees ATDC. The system is so elegant, as it behaves like a proper feedback loop should behave. It automatically accounts for air mass, fuel quality and other variables. As an added bonus, if the pressure is integrated over the crank cycle, and then a baseline subtracted, it will show total shaft horsepower that's accurate within a few percent. I've been looking for a similar spark plug sensor. The one from Optrand sure looks a lot like the one being resold by GAMI. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Eric Fahlgren > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 6:50 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Max Advance > > > Roy wrote: > > > Basically the time a cylinder needs for complete > > combustion of the fuel is constant, you want max > > pressure developed on the piston (BMEP) just after TDC > > and therefore as the engine speed increases you need > > to start combustion earlier so as this can be > > achieved. This is a very simple explanation of why > > you need to use ignition advance. > > Well, it's not quite so simple. What you really want to do is > maximize the integral of the PQ curve (see my mail from 10 minutes > ago), however you can. After running a couple of thought simulations > using the old meat computer, I think this means that you _probably_ > want the pressure in the cylinder at maximum when the rod-to-crank > angle is about 90d for engines with big L (rod/stroke ratio), but > probably a little earlier in the stroke as L gets smaller. > > (You can tell by all the "probablys" and "I thinks" that I'm > sure about this. :) > > -- > Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc > efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 07:44:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id HAA21732 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:44:32 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA21695 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:44:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id WAA15833 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:44:21 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpd4ofks5; Thu Jul 12 14:44:07 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6CEi6M09458 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:44:06 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107121444.f6CEi6M09458@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <3B4D88AE.49C05C2F@adams.com> from Eric Fahlgren at "Jul 12, 2001 07:23:26 am" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:44:06 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Eric Fahlgren tapped away at the keyboard with: > > programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together > > with the crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) > > diagram for a given cylinder. Then you would have a good visual > > representation of the entire cylinder experience, including peak > > combustion pressures and phasing of same. The number of things > > you can deduce from a PV diagram are endless. > Are there other useful diagrams of this sort? I'm thinking of a > (just made this up) PQ diagram where > > Q = cos(a) * sin(b) > a = angle between rod and bore centerline, as the rod aligns > with the bore, this goes to 1.0 > b = angle between rod and crank throw, as the rod/crank angle > goes to 90d this goes to 1.0 > > which describes the vector component of the pressure that is > actually doing useful work (or so it seems to me). The Q term > is interesting in and of itself, so I think I'll write a little > plotter that produces a bunch of curves for various rod/stroke > ratios (and maybe with bore offsets, too). The integral of the product of P(t).Q(t) during the power stroke is the gross torque produced. The crank angle (along with crank and rod length) defines a and c and the crank angle itself is a function of time (at a particular engine speed). Unfortunately, P(t) is less-straightforward to define. One could start by assuming a constant flame speed without swirl or tumble after initial ignition delay and assume a hemispherical front until "walls" are encountered. Leave swirl, etc for 'ron. :-) Beyond that, I'm almost entirely ignorant of how one would normally predict pressure based on the combustion process. I suppose one could assume an energy conversion based on the proportion of the mixture burnt behind the flame front and derive the gas pressure by perhaps also assuming adiabatic expansion. Total combustion chamber volume is "constrained" by the piston(*) so the gas pressure and temperature) would vary. Does that seem reasonable? Assuming that the temperature doesn't vary by much behind the flame front, and that the pressure is uniform throughour the cylinder, a rough numerical model would then be feasible. The model would at least demonstrate how changing the ignition timing influences pressure distribution and hence engine torque with varying engine speeds. Changing parameters such as bore, stroke and rod lengths in the model would also show their effects on timing. (*) In practice, the pressure tries to make room for itself, but the "static" model can be used as a basis for determining piston-speed fluctuations due to pressure as well. The relaxation method could be applied to "balance" the actual piston position based on cylinder pressure (piston force) and crank reaction. The crank reaction is as a result of the gross load on the crankshaft at that particular point in time. The actual piston position would then not be a fixed parameter, but a variable with time. Although this is not immediately interesting in this perspective, one shouldn't "close" the simulation to prevent this being implemented. A simple way to allow for it is to incorporate the crank angle into the model as a function of time. For this particular case, we can simply make that a constant rate dependent on the nominal engine speed and time relative to TDC (for example). -- Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 08:09:36 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27236 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:09:36 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA27232 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:09:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id XAA15901 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:09:21 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpdxmaTB2; Thu Jul 12 15:09:16 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6CF9EG09582 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:09:14 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107121509.f6CF9EG09582@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Max Advance In-Reply-To: <3B4D8EE4.3F25D29E@adams.com> from Eric Fahlgren at "Jul 12, 2001 07:49:56 am" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:09:13 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Eric Fahlgren tapped away at the keyboard with: > Roy wrote: > > > Basically the time a cylinder needs for complete > > combustion of the fuel is constant, you want max > > pressure developed on the piston (BMEP) just after TDC > > and therefore as the engine speed increases you need > > to start combustion earlier so as this can be > > achieved. This is a very simple explanation of why > > you need to use ignition advance. > > Well, it's not quite so simple. What you really want to do is > maximize the integral of the PQ curve (see my mail from 10 minutes > ago), however you can. After running a couple of thought simulations > using the old meat computer, I think this means that you _probably_ > want the pressure in the cylinder at maximum when the rod-to-crank > angle is about 90d for engines with big L (rod/stroke ratio), but > probably a little earlier in the stroke as L gets smaller. > > (You can tell by all the "probablys" and "I thinks" that I'm > sure about this. :) I'm sure about that! :-) Long rod ratios wouldn't be as sensitive to timing to obtain optimum torque as the angles are closer to "right" for more of the time. This is given by the tangential crank force Ft = Fg sin(a + b)/cos(b) Fg being the gas force cos(b) is larger for longer rod lengths (the angle of inclination is smaller) so that factor remains closer to 1. But because the torque is a result of the integral of the product of two factors over the stroke, the relationship is quite complex. Putting the pressure peak well before those 90d allows the product of the reducing pressure and the Q factor, later in the combustion process, to be more effective. Another side-effect is that the earlier you ignite (within reason), the higher your pressure peak. Near the 90d position, piston velocity is also near maximum, so the pressure is levelling off at higher engine speeds as the piston speed approaches and maybe exceeds that of the flame front. -- Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 08:24:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:24:39 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA27381 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:24:32 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KiKN-000HVi-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:24:32 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #663 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:27:55 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <000501c10ae7$39867200$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20010712123837.57278.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Oh I'm sure it goes right up there. Like I said, with a 1500:1 to 2000:1 turns ratio the theoretical voltage is staggering. But, even under the high pressure of the combustion chanmer (harder to create a spark there than in open air) most of the time with clean plugs 20Kv is all you probably will see. John Dammeyer > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Carter Shore > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 5:39 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #663 > > > On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:48:25 > John Dammeyer wrote: > > >I've never been able to measure the open circuit > >voltage on the output but obviously the turns ratio > >on the coil determines >that ultimately. > > I use an old TV HV probe, modified with a BNC > connector, and a flying lead with a ground clip. Hooks > right onto my O-scope. > > Lot's of interesting things can be observed. > > Disconnect one of the plug leads on a waste spark > setup, watch what happens to the other side. > > Carter > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 08:27:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27422 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:27:14 -0700 Received: from web10002.mail.yahoo.com (web10002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.38]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA27413 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:27:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20010712152702.75627.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.205.123.3] by web10002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:27:02 BST Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:27:02 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dave=20Edge?= Subject: Re: Max Advance To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org In-Reply-To: <20010712111245.57575.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Can I just throw something else in. On a normally aspirated engine, VE is known throughout the rev range, depending upon ambient temp and throttle opening. On a forced induction engine, VE changes according to boost pressure as well as the other values. The theory of reducing ignition advance by defined amounts now seems incorrect. To achieve max efficiency don't we have to modify advance according to revs, boost and revs again? eg, I setup my ECU to provide 1 bar boost = 5 degrees less advance. But since the turbo helps the VE of my engine at different rpm, I want it to retard the ignition by different amounts at different rpm. I think I have just argued myself into a knot, can anyone help. I think that I am trying to say that we should have max ignition possible at all times and some kind of sensors to pull it down just before knock. hmm Cheers Dave > This objectives can be achieved by running richer > fuel > air mixtures, increasing turbulence within the > cylinder, using higher compression ratios and > smaller > bore sizes with more cylinders to achieve the > required > capacity among others. > > Hope this helps > > thanks Roy ( Spectric's Ltd UK ) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 08:29:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA27473 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:29:22 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA27467 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:29:16 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KiOx-000I2H-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:29:15 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: Another use for a waste (maverick) spark coil?? Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:32:39 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <000601c10ae7$e2886fc0$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Don't know how you'd wire it up exactly. I knopw SAAB in their newer cars no longer uses a CAM sensor but uses the spark plug coil to determine which cylinder fired. As far as I know it works like this. As the engien starts to crank they fire each plug at TDC (2 at a time like waste spark but with single coils). After they fire the plug they put about 400V across the plug and measure the current. The one which is burning conducts and therefore was at TDC of the compression stroke. That means in 1/2 to one turn of the engine by the starter you know where you are and after that can time off the crank. Really clever but requires a custom coil per cylinder. I'd love to see a schematic. John Dammeyer > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hermann > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 6:54 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Another use for a waste (maverick) spark coil?? > > > > >>I've never been able to measure the open circuit > >>voltage on the output but obviously the turns ratio > >>on the coil determines >that ultimately. > > > >I use an old TV HV probe, modified with a BNC > >connector, and a flying lead with a ground clip. Hooks > >right onto my O-scope. > > > >Lot's of interesting things can be observed. > > > >Disconnect one of the plug leads on a waste spark > >setup, watch what happens to the other side. > > > >Carter > > > Which leads me to wonder-- > > Hmmmm!!??!! > > I wonder whether using a two lead (waste spark) coil, but not > in the usual waste spark manner (only firing one plug) might > be an excellent beginning for an ION measuring device?? > > Greg > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the > subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 09:56:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id JAA28270 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:56:03 -0700 Received: from murphys-outbound.servers.plus.net ([212.159.14.225]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id JAA28266 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [212.159.14.225] claimed to be murphys-outbound.servers.plus.net Received: (qmail 19994 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2001 16:55:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leslie) (212.159.17.46) by murphys with SMTP; 12 Jul 2001 16:55:17 -0000 Message-ID: <007701c10af3$2bf51fe0$c4199fd4@leslie> From: "Les Newell" To: References: <20010712152702.75627.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Max Advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:52:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org If you base your ignition timing on revs and manifold/plenum pressure then you can cover all possibilities. You can't use throttle position because you can't know how much boost the turbo is providing at any given time. les > Can I just throw something else in. > > On a normally aspirated engine, VE is known throughout > the rev range, depending upon ambient temp and > throttle opening. > > On a forced induction engine, VE changes according to > boost pressure as well as the other values. The theory > of reducing ignition advance by defined amounts now > seems incorrect. To achieve max efficiency don't we > have to modify advance according to revs, boost and > revs again? > > eg, I setup my ECU to provide 1 bar boost = 5 degrees > less advance. But since the turbo helps the VE of my > engine at different rpm, I want it to retard the > ignition by different amounts at different rpm. > > I think I have just argued myself into a knot, can > anyone help. I think that I am trying to say that we > should have max ignition possible at all times and > some kind of sensors to pull it down just before > knock. > > hmm > > Cheers > Dave > > > > This objectives can be achieved by running richer > > fuel > > air mixtures, increasing turbulence within the > > cylinder, using higher compression ratios and > > smaller > > bore sizes with more cylinders to achieve the > > required > > capacity among others. > > > > Hope this helps > > > > thanks Roy ( Spectric's Ltd UK ) > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 11:33:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28714 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:33:29 -0700 Received: from master.adams.com (master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA28710 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:33:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53] claimed to be master.adams.com Received: from adams.com (IDENT:root@srvr8.adams.com [192.9.200.19]) by master.adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09946 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adams.com (rigel [192.168.22.210]) by adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17770 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4DE936.F6FDE793@adams.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:15:18 -0400 From: Eric Fahlgren Organization: Mechanical Dynamics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Max Advance References: <20010712152702.75627.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> <007701c10af3$2bf51fe0$c4199fd4@leslie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Les Newell wrote: > > If you base your ignition timing on revs and manifold/plenum pressure then > you can cover all possibilities. You can't use throttle position because you Don't forget charge temperature, which has a strong non-linear affect on detonation. -- Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 11:37:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28758 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:37:56 -0700 Received: from master.adams.com (master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA28754 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:37:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host master1.adams.com [65.201.211.53] claimed to be master.adams.com Received: from adams.com (IDENT:root@srvr8.adams.com [192.9.200.19]) by master.adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27533 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adams.com (rigel [192.168.22.210]) by adams.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05567 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:10:43 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4DCC03.906098F3@adams.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:10:43 -0400 From: Eric Fahlgren Organization: Mechanical Dynamics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance References: <012a01c10a74$48908740$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <3B4D88AE.49C05C2F@adams.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Eric Fahlgren wrote: > actually doing useful work (or so it seems to me). The Q term > is interesting in and of itself, so I think I'll write a little > plotter that produces a bunch of curves for various rod/stroke > ratios (and maybe with bore offsets, too). See http://members.home.net/pfahlgren/cars/Qplot.jpg for some curves with the bore centerline directly over the crankshaft centerline. I'll do some later with offset bores. Note that based purely on geometry terms, you should have the longest rods possible. This is, of course, completely too simplistic in a real motor, where the P curve varies shape grossly depending on this geometry and ignition timing et cetera, but it is almost certainly the case that small L (short rods) should be avoided. Now if I can only come up with a thermodynamic model for combustion, as Bernd suggests, then I can model timing and torque variations. -- Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 11:42:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:42:31 -0700 Received: from kitkat.hotpop.com (kitkat.hotpop.com [204.57.55.30]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA28791 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:42:24 -0700 Received: from hotpop.com (unknown [204.57.55.31]) by kitkat.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 02E353088E for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:42:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jacky (lsanca1-ar10-068-098.biz.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.68.98]) by zagnut.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AF17F5004D for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:42:15 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <013001c10b02$f3b1cb00$170101c0@yoshimura.com> From: "Jack" To: References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> Subject: Re: WB Instruments Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org http://www.gothorsepower.com/ click on AFM-1 Air Fuel Ratio Analyzer I've got one and it's been working pretty good. The good thing is the 0-5v output, if you have data acq. The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on the car and drove around with it on too much. Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably calibration gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive on the list that I can look up? Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dammeyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: WB Instruments > > I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 > sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but > something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for > calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are > some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. > > Thanks. > > John > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 12:49:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA29480 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:49:18 -0700 Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA29476 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:49:10 -0700 Received: from [216.232.171.118] (helo=Snoopy) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15KmSU-000OyJ-00 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:49:10 -0700 From: "John Dammeyer" To: Subject: RE: WB Instruments Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:52:34 -0700 Organization: Automation Artisans Inc. Message-ID: <000901c10b0c$31ef1630$0100a8c0@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <013001c10b02$f3b1cb00$170101c0@yoshimura.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Hi, Yes, we're considering this one even though it's twice the price of the one from Winnipeg. RS232 output isn't nearly as valuable as the 0V to 5V output that this one has. We can attach that to one of the free inputs of the Dyno and therefore log HP, Torque and AFM on the dyno run. Additionally, making the Fuel Injection Computer work with 0 to 5V is a no brainer so it also helps for tuning. That and a Numeric display makes it an attractive beast. My tech is checking into calibration and what needs to be done on a regular basis to validate the results. I'll keep you all posted. John Dammeyer > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:45 AM > To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: WB Instruments > > > http://www.gothorsepower.com/ click on AFM-1 Air Fuel > Ratio Analyzer > > I've got one and it's been working pretty good. The good > thing is the 0-5v output, if you have data acq. The sensor is > going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on the car > and drove around with it on too much. > > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? > Probably calibration gas? but I'm not too familiar with > calibration gas, is there archive on the list that I can look up? > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Dammeyer" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:31 AM > Subject: WB Instruments > > > > > > I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 > > sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at > this time > > sensor+but > > something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for > > calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there > > are some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list > > please. > > > > Thanks. > > > > John > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the > subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 13:39:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA29710 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:39:44 -0700 Received: from m24.boston.juno.com (m24.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.87]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA29706 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:39:38 -0700 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"+xb1rTd12SIShQLp0vkqsk7du6UA67OJG7xB7pBYcrAgzFPp+f6qXA=="> Received: (from blocklm@juno.com) by m24.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F964RAJG; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:39:27 EDT To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:43:24 -0700 Subject: Re: WB Instruments Message-ID: <20010712.134326.143.5.blocklm@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6-13,16-17,20-21,32-33,50-51,57-58,60-61 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Brian L Massey Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 "Jack" writes: > The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on > the car and drove around with it on too much. How do you tell that the sensor is "going bad"? I mean, what are the symptoms? And how long is too much driving around? > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably > calibration > gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive > on the > list that I can look up? Wow, at $1200+ a pop, I hope you would be able to return the sensor + box for checking and calibration, can't you? Isn't this the one that Bruce was recommending (same name Bailey)? I'm from the mechanical side, not electrical, and have been trying to study up on these devices, and still have some questions for those in the know... ......1) I finally got straightened out with what happens when you have a misfire, thanks to input recently. I assumed the readings would go rich, but I see from further web reading, that even with diagnosis using the oem NB o2 sensors, they also show lean if they see misfire. So OK, it sees just the excess o2 and not the unburned fuel. But the stuff I've read about these sensors says they *are* sensitive to unburned HCs too. So does the extra air overwhelm the effect of the HCs? Buhhhhttt if this is true, then wouldn't there be some level of misfire at which these two would cancel out, and you wouldn't see the misfire? Seems they are either sensitive to unburned HCs or not. What gives? I'm trying to visualize what is happening here. .....2) Another situation I don't follow recently came up (well, it's been mentioned a number of times actually). Thats when you are looking at the WB output, and you supposedly can see "individual cylinders". As a mechanical type, I think about the flow of gas out of the cylinders into the exhaust pipe. Say all the jugs are firing at the same afr. OK, so where does the variation in afr that the sensor sees come from? I mean, the exhaust gases go down the tube not as slugs of exhaust surrounded by lower afr, or *do* they? Sure there's a pulse of exh gas but how would it differ from the afr that's in the gas pipe "off-cycle" already? The pressure and flow drop off-cycle, but that doesn't mean the afr is going change. Or does it? Unless there is some dilution (but how can that be?), I would think unless the sensor is highly pressure sensitive and thats what your seeing, the afr ought to not show any "individual cylinders". I can see this happening at low rpm where you have some air in the pipe, but at higher rpm, unless there is a leak in the exhaust to introduce outside air, how could the sensor see an afr variation if all the jugs are burning at the same afr? I don't get that one either! :( Mind you, yes, I got the part where theres a misfire and you can see that, but how is it happening that you see the boundary between two cylinders firing if they are dumping the *same* afr exh gas into the header, unless there's some background dilution happening off-cycle? This is the part that has me confused. Where is the dilution coming from? Anyone help me out here? Thanks for all the stuff I've learned so far in the last couple months, guys. Still a beginner I guess. Tnx. Brian ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 13:57:27 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA29828 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:57:27 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA29823 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:57:19 -0700 Received: from [216.107.54.121] (HELO nni.com) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 24039864 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:57:17 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4E0F3B.DD3E3DE3@nni.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:57:31 -0400 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: WB Instruments References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> <013001c10b02$f3b1cb00$170101c0@yoshimura.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Heres a couple of mixes that are at good afr's. Supposed to be bubbled through water before hitting the sensor. 12.5: 1 AFR: Carbon monoxide 3.4% Hydrogen 2.0% Carbon dioxide 10.0% Nitrogen balance Stoich: Carbon dioxide 13.0% Nitrogen balance There is also free air calibration. I consider this to be more of a unit test. For stoich I've also used pure argon. BobR. Jack wrote: > http://www.gothorsepower.com/ click on AFM-1 Air Fuel Ratio Analyzer > > I've got one and it's been working pretty good. The good thing is the 0-5v > output, if you have data acq. > The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on the car > and drove around with it on too much. > > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably calibration > gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive on the > list that I can look up? > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Dammeyer" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:31 AM > Subject: WB Instruments > > > > > I have some budget available to purchase a commercial WB O2 > > sensor+Instrument. I'm not looking for a roll your own at this time but > > something that can be calibrated or returned to the factory for > > calibration. I don't have $10,000 available but I understand there are > > some for the $1K region. Would someone post or email me a list please. > > > > Thanks. > > > > John > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 14:03:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA29921 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:03:30 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA29914 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:03:21 -0700 Received: from [216.107.53.23] (HELO nni.com) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 24040576 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:03:19 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4E10A5.44C3CE12@nni.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:03:33 -0400 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: WB Instruments References: <20010712.134326.143.5.blocklm@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Individual cylinders can be detected as no two cylinders are at the same exact AFR. The WB sensor also responds more quickly than the NB sensor. For good info on the NTK WB see: SAE #920234, Universal air-fuel ratio heated exhaust gas oxygen sensor and furthur applications. BobR. Brian L Massey wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 "Jack" writes: > > > The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on > > the car and drove around with it on too much. > > How do you tell that the sensor is "going bad"? I mean, what are the > symptoms? And how long is too much driving around? > > > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably > > calibration > > gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive > > on the > > list that I can look up? > > Wow, at $1200+ a pop, I hope you would be able to return the sensor + box > for checking and calibration, can't you? Isn't this the one that Bruce > was recommending (same name Bailey)? > > I'm from the mechanical side, not electrical, and have been trying to > study up on these devices, and still have some questions for those in the > know... > > ......1) I finally got straightened out with what happens when you have a > misfire, thanks to input recently. I assumed the readings would go rich, > but I see from further web reading, that even with diagnosis using the > oem NB o2 sensors, they also show lean if they see misfire. So OK, it > sees just the excess o2 and not the unburned fuel. But the stuff I've > read about these sensors says they *are* sensitive to unburned HCs too. > So does the extra air overwhelm the effect of the HCs? Buhhhhttt if this > is true, then wouldn't there be some level of misfire at which these two > would cancel out, and you wouldn't see the misfire? Seems they are either > sensitive to unburned HCs or not. What gives? I'm trying to visualize > what is happening here. > > .....2) Another situation I don't follow recently came up (well, it's > been mentioned a number of times actually). Thats when you are looking at > the WB output, and you supposedly can see "individual cylinders". As a > mechanical type, I think about the flow of gas out of the cylinders into > the exhaust pipe. Say all the jugs are firing at the same afr. OK, so > where does the variation in afr that the sensor sees come from? I mean, > the exhaust gases go down the tube not as slugs of exhaust surrounded by > lower afr, or *do* they? Sure there's a pulse of exh gas but how would it > differ from the afr that's in the gas pipe "off-cycle" already? The > pressure and flow drop off-cycle, but that doesn't mean the afr is going > change. Or does it? Unless there is some dilution (but how can that be?), > I would think unless the sensor is highly pressure sensitive and thats > what your seeing, the afr ought to not show any "individual cylinders". I > can see this happening at low rpm where you have some air in the pipe, > but at higher rpm, unless there is a leak in the exhaust to introduce > outside air, how could the sensor see an afr variation if all the jugs > are burning at the same afr? I don't get that one either! :( > > Mind you, yes, I got the part where theres a misfire and you can see > that, but how is it happening that you see the boundary between two > cylinders firing if they are dumping the *same* afr exh gas into the > header, unless there's some background dilution happening off-cycle? This > is the part that has me confused. Where is the dilution coming from? > Anyone help me out here? > > Thanks for all the stuff I've learned so far in the last couple months, > guys. Still a beginner I guess. Tnx. > > Brian > ________________________________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 14:04:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA29952 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:04:06 -0700 Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA29939 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:03:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11] claimed to be cgpro.iccx.net Received: from [206.168.145.107] (HELO [206.168.145.107]) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 63891428 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:03:35 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:06:16 -0700 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Maximum advance Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > >Beyond that, I'm almost entirely ignorant of how one would normally >predict pressure based on the combustion process. I suppose one >could assume an energy conversion based on the proportion of the >mixture burnt behind the flame front and derive the gas pressure by >perhaps also assuming adiabatic expansion. Total combustion chamber >volume is "constrained" by the piston(*) so the gas pressure and >temperature) would vary. Does that seem reasonable? > >Assuming that the temperature doesn't vary by much behind the flame >front, and that the pressure is uniform throughour the cylinder, a >rough numerical model would then be feasible. > >The model would at least demonstrate how changing the ignition >timing influences pressure distribution and hence engine torque with >varying engine speeds. Changing parameters such as bore, stroke and >rod lengths in the model would also show their effects on timing. > Ah, but there are so many more fun things to be considered! Some heat goes into (nearly) adiabatic compression (and therefore heating) of the unburnt gas, There is radiative heat transfer of heat to the piston crown and chamber walls (really only significant from the burning and burnt gas, since radiative heat transfer depends on the fourth power of absolute temperature), convective heat transfer from both the burnt and unburnt gasses, and so on! Also sonic effects--as in pressure changes can only equalize themselves across the entire chamber at Mach 1. (Which of course varies with the (changing) molecular weight of the gasses and with the (also changing) (square root of) the absolute temp of the gasses. Nope, gas density and pressure have no effect on Mach 1! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 14:16:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30251 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:16:03 -0700 Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA30246 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:15:55 -0700 Received: from cr29243a ([24.102.178.19]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010712211549.GSWO20411.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@cr29243a> for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:15:49 -0700 Message-ID: <009001c10b31$1437f880$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Walter Sherwin" To: References: <012a01c10a74$48908740$13b26618@pr1.on.wave.home.com> <3B4D88AE.49C05C2F@adams.com> Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:16:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > > programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together with the > > crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) diagram for a given > > cylinder. Then you would have a good visual representation of the entire > > cylinder experience, including peak combustion pressures and phasing of > > same. The number of things you can deduce from a PV diagram are endless. > > Are there other useful diagrams of this sort? I'm thinking of a > (just made this up) PQ diagram where > > Q = cos(a) * sin(b) > a = angle between rod and bore centerline, as the rod aligns > with the bore, this goes to 1.0 > b = angle between rod and crank throw, as the rod/crank angle > goes to 90d this goes to 1.0 > > which describes the vector component of the pressure that is > actually doing useful work (or so it seems to me). The Q term > is interesting in and of itself, so I think I'll write a little > plotter that produces a bunch of curves for various rod/stroke > ratios (and maybe with bore offsets, too). > > -- > Eric Fahlgren Mechanical Dynamics, Inc > efahl@adams.com Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yup, that's the beauty of modern DAQ's and computers. Provided you have the right input data signals in the first place, you can interrogate their meaning in umpteen different ways and formats without too much grief. The PV diagram will expose pumping efficiencies and pressure consequences. Your PQ diagram idea could help with the relative phasing of combustion/expansion pressures WRT the reciprocating engine geometry for max power & torque at all times. I'm sure there are many other equally valid diagrams that could also be pondered so as to focus one a given aspect. Maybe even more than just two variables at once.... Walt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 14:25:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30481 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:25:50 -0700 Received: from ntserver.techedge.com.au (teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA30475 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:25:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host teched.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.11.216] claimed to be ntserver.techedge.com.au Received: from techedge.com.au (Administrators@localhost) by ntserver.techedge.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00338 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:37:46 +1000 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <3B4E1683.3C9F47D5@techedge.com.au> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:28:35 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Organization: Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. - ABN 40 057 140 137 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Honda/NTK O2 sensor References: <200107040800.BAA10529@hektor.valesh.com> <3.0.1.32.20010705102706.006cb22c@smtp.cybersol.com> <3B4CE24F.B6E4F2CB@techedge.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Okay, here's a simpler question: Anyone have any experience with web purchasing from either www.thepartsbin.com or www.hparts.com and in particular for the http://diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/diy_egor/ sensor from either supplier? http://www.hparts.com/part_lookup.php3?partno=36531-P07-003&submit2.x=56&submit2.y=7 http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/partsbin/quote.jsp?product=36531-P07-003&Submit=GO&partner=partsbin&action=search&cart=&partnerSession=++&usemake= Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 14:54:51 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30831 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:51 -0700 Received: from siaar1ab.compuserve.com (siaar1ab.compuserve.com [149.174.40.10]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA30827 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:43 -0700 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaar1ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id UAA17929 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from HOMEXXL (fra-pci-laj-vty11.as.wcom.net [212.211.72.11]) by siaar1ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id UAA17923 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001e01c10a69$dac6f3c0$0b48d3d4@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 02:30:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Walter Sherwin wrote: > > Kistler would be another option for such spark plug transducers. > > True, but they are just about an order of magnitude more expensive - $2k > plus per sensor, I thought. > > > quality to suit, then why not go one step further and add a crank angle > > resolver/encoder to one of the DAQ channels. Then you could > > programmatically combine the pressure transducer data together with the > > crank angle data, to create a pressure-volume (PV) diagram for a given > > cylinder. > > That's the plan! I figure catching detonation would at least be step one > :) For less money you put your engine on a dyno and you tune it the old fashioned way, using your ears as sensors and your brain as signal processor. Quite effective. Expensive transducers won't really help you tune on the road anyway and, IMHO, are not really required unless you are developing, say, a new head of your own or do serious engine research, or maybe if you ECU can actually use them. -Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 16:02:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA31202 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:02:44 -0700 Received: from eagle.he.net (eagle.he.net [216.218.174.2]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA31198 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:02:38 -0700 Received: from localhost (skulte@localhost) by eagle.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA07249 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:02:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:02:44 -0700 (PDT) From: skulte To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <001e01c10a69$dac6f3c0$0b48d3d4@HOMEXXL> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Axel Rietschin wrote: > > That's the plan! I figure catching detonation would at least be step one > > :) > > For less money you put your engine on a dyno and you tune it the old > fashioned way, using your ears as sensors and your brain as signal > processor. Quite effective. Expensive transducers won't really help you tune > on the road anyway and, IMHO, are not really required unless you are > developing, say, a new head of your own or do serious engine research, or > maybe if you ECU can actually use them. True, but my major drawback is that the nearest chassis dyno is about an hour away, and they all seem to charge $75-$125/hr for strap down time. I could easily spend over $1000 on dyno time alone. With the pressure sensor you can see what the results are during combustion. The PV diagram should let you get the timing and fuel spot on. I get frustrated on the dyno sometimes since I don't know if I have too much timing, or not enough, etc. A. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 17:17:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA31490 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:17:19 -0700 Received: from kitkat.hotpop.com (kitkat.hotpop.com [204.57.55.30]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA31482 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:17:03 -0700 Received: from hotpop.com (unknown [204.57.55.31]) by kitkat.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E370A31916 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:16:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jacky (lsanca1-ar10-068-098.biz.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.68.98]) by zagnut.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B3E35003D for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:16:45 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <00c001c10b31$afc21600$170101c0@yoshimura.com> From: "Jack" To: References: <20010712.134326.143.5.blocklm@juno.com> Subject: Re: WB Instruments Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:15:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Brand new, the unit heats up and is operational in about 30-45 sec. Now the unit won't come on unit I drive around for a few minute. I've gotten Bosch WB sensor for about $150 each. So it's not too bad even though the unit was $1200. (was about 1100 when I got mine a year or two ago) My idiot friend borrow the unit to tune a Honda. Left the sensor on there and drove around for a few weeks (without hooking up the box). I'm assuming that all the particles in the exhaust might have accumlated on the sensor. This is why I want to get calibration gas for it. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian L Massey" To: Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: Re: WB Instruments > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 "Jack" writes: > > > The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on > > the car and drove around with it on too much. > > How do you tell that the sensor is "going bad"? I mean, what are the > symptoms? And how long is too much driving around? > > > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably > > calibration > > gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive > > on the > > list that I can look up? > > Wow, at $1200+ a pop, I hope you would be able to return the sensor + box > for checking and calibration, can't you? Isn't this the one that Bruce > was recommending (same name Bailey)? > > I'm from the mechanical side, not electrical, and have been trying to > study up on these devices, and still have some questions for those in the > know... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 17:17:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA31491 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:17:23 -0700 Received: from kitkat.hotpop.com (kitkat.hotpop.com [204.57.55.30]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA31483 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:17:03 -0700 Received: from hotpop.com (unknown [204.57.55.31]) by kitkat.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 76B4331931 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:16:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jacky (lsanca1-ar10-068-098.biz.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.68.98]) by zagnut.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A64875004A for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:16:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <00c101c10b31$b05cf670$170101c0@yoshimura.com> From: "Jack" To: References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> <013001c10b02$f3b1cb00$170101c0@yoshimura.com> <3B4E0F3B.DD3E3DE3@nni.com> Subject: Re: WB Instruments Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:19:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Bubbled through water? Is this a fact that you know for sure? because I'm going to be welding up some tubing to run the gas through and check the sensor. If it is for sure that bubbling through water is need (recommended), I'll have to change my plan a little bit. Thanks for the info though. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "rr" To: Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: WB Instruments > > Heres a couple of mixes that are at good afr's. Supposed to be bubbled > through water before hitting the sensor. > > 12.5: 1 AFR: > Carbon monoxide 3.4% > Hydrogen 2.0% > Carbon dioxide 10.0% > Nitrogen balance > > Stoich: > > Carbon dioxide 13.0% > Nitrogen balance > > There is also free air calibration. I consider this to be more of a unit > test. For stoich I've also used pure argon. > > BobR. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:12:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA31866 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:12:58 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA31861 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:12:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id JAA16982 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:12:42 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpdJt2WS8; Fri Jul 13 01:12:33 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6D1CRS11942 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:12:27 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107130112.f6D1CRS11942@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: <3B4DCC03.906098F3@adams.com> from Eric Fahlgren at "Jul 12, 2001 12:10:43 pm" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:12:26 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Eric Fahlgren tapped away at the keyboard with: > Eric Fahlgren wrote: > > > actually doing useful work (or so it seems to me). The Q term > > is interesting in and of itself, so I think I'll write a little > > plotter that produces a bunch of curves for various rod/stroke > > ratios (and maybe with bore offsets, too). > See http://members.home.net/pfahlgren/cars/Qplot.jpg for some > curves with the bore centerline directly over the crankshaft > centerline. I'll do some later with offset bores. > Note that based purely on geometry terms, you should have the > longest rods possible. This is, of course, completely too > simplistic in a real motor, where the P curve varies shape > grossly depending on this geometry and ignition timing et cetera, > but it is almost certainly the case that small L (short rods) > should be avoided. That's not necessarily true. Note on your graph that the short rod lengths will impart a "harder bang" if peak pressure occurs early in the cycle. In an extreme stratified charge, there's very little fuel left to burn after initial burn so there would be little additional pressure after the first 15 degrees at moderate engine speeds so the additional mechanical advantage of the short rod near TDC may be more valuable. Even in a homogeneous mix, the show is basically over at about 75 degrees in terms of pressure build-up. The long-rod assists in maximising the torque gained from residual pressure, at the expense of losing maybe 10% of torque near TDC. Without seeing the integral of the product of pressure and mechanical advantage (i.e. gross torque), it's impossible to judge. The long-rod engine will seem smoother, the short-rod one coarse. > Now if I can only come up with a thermodynamic model for combustion, > as Bernd suggests, then I can model timing and torque variations. -- Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:31:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA31982 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:31:24 -0700 Received: from sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA31977 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:31:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host innovative.iinet.net.au [203.59.144.24] claimed to be sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sprocket.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id JAA17041 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:31:10 +0800 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.6.142.20), claiming to be "flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au" via SMTP by innovative.iinet.net.au, id smtpd9fLygx; Fri Jul 13 01:30:48 2001 Received: (from bernie@localhost) by flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f6D1UkM12030 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:30:46 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche Message-Id: <200107130130.f6D1UkM12030@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Maximum advance In-Reply-To: from Greg Hermann at "Jul 12, 2001 03:06:16 pm" To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:30:46 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Greg Hermann tapped away at the keyboard with: > >Beyond that, I'm almost entirely ignorant of how one would normally > >predict pressure based on the combustion process. I suppose one > >could assume an energy conversion based on the proportion of the > >mixture burnt behind the flame front and derive the gas pressure by > >perhaps also assuming adiabatic expansion. Total combustion chamber > >volume is "constrained" by the piston(*) so the gas pressure and > >temperature) would vary. Does that seem reasonable? > > > >Assuming that the temperature doesn't vary by much behind the flame > >front, and that the pressure is uniform throughour the cylinder, a > >rough numerical model would then be feasible. > > > >The model would at least demonstrate how changing the ignition > >timing influences pressure distribution and hence engine torque with > >varying engine speeds. Changing parameters such as bore, stroke and > >rod lengths in the model would also show their effects on timing. > Ah, but there are so many more fun things to be considered! Some > heat goes into (nearly) adiabatic compression (and therefore > heating) of the unburnt gas, There is radiative heat transfer of > heat to the piston crown and chamber walls (really only > significant from the burning and burnt gas, since radiative heat > transfer depends on the fourth power of absolute temperature), > convective heat transfer from both the burnt and unburnt gasses, > and so on! Let's keep the computation fluid thermodynamics out of this. Heat transfer to the walls is a small factor; as is heat transfer to end-gas. The compression of the end-gas, and hence its increase in energy, should be taken into account. So for a first-approximation, the model is sufficient. Else you'll end up trying to figure out at what point boundary-layer stripping occurs due to knock. If you manage to do that, then the boys from Detroit will come around with some iron bars and re-arrange your knee caps; simply because you're being an extreme smart-arse! :-) > Also sonic effects--as in pressure changes can only equalize > themselves across the entire chamber at Mach 1. (Which of course > varies with the (changing) molecular weight of the gasses and with > the (also changing) (square root of) the absolute temp of the > gasses. Nope, gas density and pressure have no effect on Mach 1! Given that the pressure would "equalise" in about 0.1 milliseconds, it's a reasonable first approximation to assume some things "constant". Especially if you're trying to get a working simulation of sorts within a week; compared to the 30 years required for a detailed one. -- Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:34:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA32028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:34:18 -0700 Received: from ns3.cybersol.com (ns3.cybersol.com [209.172.21.6]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA32023 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:34:07 -0700 Received: from alfred (prsh-mdm13.cybersol.com [209.172.23.19]) by ns3.cybersol.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:34:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010712213041.006c1bd0@smtp.cybersol.com> X-Sender: btisdale@smtp.cybersol.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:30:41 -0400 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: WB Instruments In-Reply-To: <20010712.134326.143.5.blocklm@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Observations on experiments connected with building a couple of DIY-WB boards (and finally going w/ a commercial one...): Sensor *is* sensitive to hydrocarbons. Argon alone, or C2 MIG (Ar 75%, CO2 25%) mix gives you stoich readings. Stuff out of the bottle is practically anhydrous, so not sure what water vapor (bubbling) in it would do. Adding just a dab of propane (2cc in a quart of argon) will cause the sensor to go quite rich. I run the sensor(s) in a 1 qt Mason jar - convection from the hot sensor mixes things well; the muffin fan I had in the jar originally isn't needed. 'Free air' cal is so far out of the normal operating range of the WB, I didn't find it of much value. Have run a WB and NB side by side - dramatic differences in 'switching' curves. I bought the Honda sensor from thepartsbin w/o any problem whatsoever - $117 + a few bux shipping. Price is still good AFAIK. Sensors thru NAPA are "Factory backordered", out of stock in all US warehouses. Running the sensor in an engine w/o any heater current is a no-no according to FJO; apparently crud will accumulate rapidly & screw it up. Might want to try the 'propane torch fix' that seems to work w/ NB sensors - might burn off the gook & if its shot anyhow, what's to lose? All of the above is strictly what I've observed - YMMV, etc. Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:40:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA32164 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:40:50 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA32159 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:40:43 -0700 Received: from [216.107.54.50] (HELO nni.com) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 24068823 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:40:38 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4E51A4.5C5587A2@nni.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:40:52 -0400 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: WB Instruments References: <000601c10966$395a2dd0$0100a8c0@telus.net> <013001c10b02$f3b1cb00$170101c0@yoshimura.com> <3B4E0F3B.DD3E3DE3@nni.com> <00c101c10b31$b05cf670$170101c0@yoshimura.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Yes. BobR. Jack wrote: > Bubbled through water? Is this a fact that you know for sure? because I'm > going to be welding up some tubing to run the gas through and check the > sensor. If it is for sure that bubbling through water is need (recommended), > I'll have to change my plan a little bit. > > Thanks for the info though. > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "rr" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:57 PM > Subject: Re: WB Instruments > > > > > Heres a couple of mixes that are at good afr's. Supposed to be bubbled > > through water before hitting the sensor. > > > > 12.5: 1 AFR: > > Carbon monoxide 3.4% > > Hydrogen 2.0% > > Carbon dioxide 10.0% > > Nitrogen balance > > > > Stoich: > > > > Carbon dioxide 13.0% > > Nitrogen balance > > > > There is also free air calibration. I consider this to be more of a unit > > test. For stoich I've also used pure argon. > > > > BobR. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:41:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA32196 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:41:21 -0700 Received: from admin.nni.com (admin.nni.com [216.107.0.218]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA32186 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:41:12 -0700 Received: from [216.107.54.50] (HELO nni.com) by admin.nni.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 24068913 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:41:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3B4E51C5.B7F6ECB4@nni.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:41:25 -0400 From: rr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: Re: WB Instruments References: <20010712.134326.143.5.blocklm@juno.com> <00c001c10b31$afc21600$170101c0@yoshimura.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Unfortunate. Leaving them in the exhaust & engine running w/o the heater powered up will ruin them. Maybe your friend would be willing to go halfers on a new sensor? BobR. Jack wrote: > Brand new, the unit heats up and is operational in about 30-45 sec. Now the > unit won't come on unit I drive around for a few minute. I've gotten Bosch > WB sensor for about $150 each. So it's not too bad even though the unit was > $1200. (was about 1100 when I got mine a year or two ago) > My idiot friend borrow the unit to tune a Honda. Left the sensor on there > and drove around for a few weeks (without hooking up the box). I'm assuming > that all the particles in the exhaust might have accumlated on the sensor. > This is why I want to get calibration gas for it. > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian L Massey" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: WB Instruments > > > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 "Jack" writes: > > > > > The sensor is going bad on mine, but I think my friend left it on > > > the car and drove around with it on too much. > > > > How do you tell that the sensor is "going bad"? I mean, what are the > > symptoms? And how long is too much driving around? > > > > > Anyone got any idea on checking accuracy on this thing? Probably > > > calibration > > > gas? but I'm not too familiar with calibration gas, is there archive > > > on the > > > list that I can look up? > > > > Wow, at $1200+ a pop, I hope you would be able to return the sensor + box > > for checking and calibration, can't you? Isn't this the one that Bruce > > was recommending (same name Bailey)? > > > > I'm from the mechanical side, not electrical, and have been trying to > > study up on these devices, and still have some questions for those in the > > know... > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 18:54:29 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA32513 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:54:29 -0700 Received: from siaar1aa.compuserve.com (siaar1aa.compuserve.com [149.174.40.9]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA32504 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:54:20 -0700 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaar1aa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) id VAA16291 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from HOMEXXL (fra-pci-laf-vty34.as.wcom.net [212.211.64.34]) by siaar1aa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.3) with SMTP id VAA16286 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00a701c10b3e$8e24f870$2240d3d4@HOMEXXL> From: "Axel Rietschin" To: References: Subject: Re: Maximum advance Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 03:53:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Axel Rietschin wrote: > > > That's the plan! I figure catching detonation would at least be step one > > > :) > > > > For less money you put your engine on a dyno and you tune it the old > > fashioned way, using your ears as sensors and your brain as signal > > processor. Quite effective. Expensive transducers won't really help you tune > > on the road anyway and, IMHO, are not really required unless you are > > developing, say, a new head of your own or do serious engine research, or > > maybe if you ECU can actually use them. > > True, but my major drawback is that the nearest chassis dyno is about an > hour away, and they all seem to charge $75-$125/hr for strap down time. I > could easily spend over $1000 on dyno time alone. With the pressure sensor > you can see what the results are during combustion. The PV diagram should > let you get the timing and fuel spot on. I get frustrated on > the dyno sometimes since I don't know if I have too much timing, or not > enough, etc. The true solution is to use an engine dyno. Chassis dyno is probably a bit better than open roads to make a ignition map, but it is still far too noisy to do a good job IMO. Also you may well melt a few engines before you figure out what is knock and what is not on the pressure diagrams, or while you debug your filtering software. With a copper pipe bolted on the head and connected to a "stethoscope" on the other end, across a fully soundproof wall, you will hear even isolated, spurious knock bursts and be able to back off timing very quickly. For this process to work well you need to stabilize the engine at every load/rpm points and adjust them individually, and you need silence and concentration. Knock is very random in nature and you may only have one burst of 10 or 15 out of 200 or 300 burns that pings, I'm not sure how you'll catch and display that in real time with a PC, but your ears definitely will, every time, provided you are in a silent environment. When advancing timing small steps at a time you will feel an ever so subtle change in the absolutely chaotic internal engine noise that will tell you knock is just about to show his ugly face and soon thereafter you'll hear an erratic burst of noises somewhat similar to what you hear when you lit a match, only much shorter, slightly standing out of the huge background noise. When you hear that, quickly back off 2-3 degrees and you are done with that map point. If you back off timing but still hear more matches lighting up, reach that big red pushbutton (the one saying "emergency stop") as fast as you can but chances are it is already too late. When I mapped my engine we were up to three in the booth, the person driving the dyno, myself on the laptop and the third person with his hand on the red button. We had one expensive piezo sensor connected to an oscilloscope (useless), one standard Bosch knock sensor connected to a Nagra tape recorder with me on the headphones and the copper pipe for the dyno operator; the only words allowed were "OK" to move to the next rpm site and "Stop" to back off immediately. We spent about 5 minutes on every row on the map including maximum load, releasing the brake in small steps to stabilize the engine at every rpm sites on the current row; it took me about 10-12 seconds per site to reach the premise of knock and back off two degrees or so; we let the engine idle at 3000 rpm for 2-3 minutes between rows to allow the turbo to cool down from bright yellow to dark red; the ECU was taking care of the mixture details using its own NTK sensor, precisely tracking the target lambda set in the appropriate map (we did a rough fuel map before using a very conservative ignition map). The whole process took several hours and take my word for it, it takes a lot of nerves to play with the knock limit at high load for 5 minutes flat at a time with the whole exhaust header and turbo yellow-white, with up to 1100C on the temp dial toward the end of the rpm range. The ECU was connected to all the usual engine sensors and we had additional sensors for almost everything, pre and post intercooler temp, per cylinder exhaust temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure, oil and water temp in and out of the engine, oil, water and fuel flow, manifold pressure, crankcase pressure and another WB O2 - nearly 20 extra sensors - with computer controlled normal range, alarm and emergency stop values for every of them (the dyno would shut down automatically if one of the value went out of the allowed range) - I describe all this just to emphasize you can't really do a proper ignition mapping job on a chassis dyno, much less on the road, and that you need more than a plug sensor, no matter how good, to do it right. Also I don't want to discourage anyone, but the only ECUs I know that are capable of using those pressure sensors for closed loop ignition are using a dedicated DSP chip just to process the sensor's signal, and they _are_ the ECUs, I mean they already knows where the crank is and when they fired the cylinder they are monitoring. I believe the signal is extremely noisy and somewhat hard to interpret properly in real time. The software has so many adjustable parameters in the knock strategy section it makes me wonder how long it takes to adapt it effectively to a particular engine. Note that I'm not against progress (I believe I was the first to post references to the NTK/NGK spark plug sensors here a while ago) it is also well known that Saab and others pioneered innovative ways of sensing knock but for most of us, the old way is still by far the best IMHO. --Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 19:22:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA00312 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:22:56 -0700 Received: from postal.grolen.com ([216.177.31.5]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA00308 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:22:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host [216.177.31.5] claimed to be postal.grolen.com Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.177.31.6]) by postal.grolen.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:21:55 -0400 Received: from [216.177.30.118] by grolen.com id b2f91.wrk; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:23:50 EDT Message-ID: <3B4E5B55.FD4014A5@grolen.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:22:13 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Subject: (Knock detection methods) Re: Maximum advance References: <00a701c10b3e$8e24f870$2240d3d4@HOMEXXL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@diy-efi.org Axel Rietschin wrote: > > With a copper pipe bolted on the head and connected to a "stethoscope" on > the other end, across a fully soundproof wall, you will hear even isolated, > spurious knock bursts and be able to back off timing very quickly. For this > process to work well you need to stabilize the engine at every load/rpm > points and adjust them individually, and you need silence and concentration. As you mention further in the post, a knock sensor connected to an amplifier and a good set of headphones will reveal huge amounts of engine noise, knock included. It's a good experience, IMO, for every average tuner to drive around and listen to one of these babies. Even if you're not chasing knock, it's good to listen to what the knock sensor normally hears. For the guys that like to set timing almost at knock, it's a great experience. Shannen > > Knock is very random in nature and you may only have one burst of 10 or 15 > out of 200 or 300 burns that pings, I'm not sure how you'll catch and > display that in real time with a PC, but your ears definitely will, every > time, provided you are in a silent environment. In a car and with good headphones you'll hear a fair amount of noise also. > > When advancing timing small steps at a time you will feel an ever so subtle > change in the absolutely chaotic internal engine noise that will tell you > knock is just about to show his ugly face and soon thereafter you'll hear an > erratic burst of noises somewhat similar to what you hear when you lit a > match, only much shorter, slightly standing out of the huge background > noise. When you hear that, quickly back off 2-3 degrees and you are done > with that map point. If you back off timing but still hear more matches > lighting up, reach that big red pushbutton (the one saying "emergency stop") > as fast as you can but chances are it is already too late. > > When I mapped my engine we were up to three in the booth, the person driving > the dyno, myself on the laptop and the third person with his hand on the red > button. We had one expensive piezo sensor connected to an oscilloscope > (useless), one standard Bosch knock sensor connected to a Nagra tape > recorder with me on the headphones and the copper pipe for the dyno > operator; the only words allowed were "OK" to move to the next rpm site and > "Stop" to back off immediately. > > We spent about 5 minutes on every row on the map including maximum load, > releasing the brake in small steps to stabilize the engine at every rpm > sites on the current row; it took me about 10-12 seconds per site to reach > the premise of knock and back off two degrees or so; we let the engine idle > at 3000 rpm for 2-3 minutes between rows to allow the turbo to cool down > from bright yellow to dark red; the ECU was taking care of the mixture > details using its own NTK sensor, precisely tracking the target lambda set > in the appropriate map (we did a rough fuel map before using a very > conservative ignition map). > > The whole process took several hours and take my word for it, it takes a lot > of nerves to play with the knock limit at high load for 5 minutes flat at a > time with the whole exhaust header and turbo yellow-white, with up to 1100C > on the temp dial toward the end of the rpm range. The ECU was connected to > all the usual engine sensors and we had additional sensors for almost > everything, pre and post intercooler temp, per cylinder exhaust temp, oil > pressure, fuel pressure, oil and water temp in and out of the engine, oil, > water and fuel flow, manifold pressure, crankcase pressure and another WB > O2 - nearly 20 extra sensors - with computer controlled normal range, alarm > and emergency stop values for every of them (the dyno would shut down > automatically if one of the value went out of the allowed range) - I > describe all this just to emphasize you can't really do a proper ignition > mapping job on a chassis dyno, much less on the road, and that you need more > than a plug sensor, no matter how good, to do it right. > > Also I don't want to discourage anyone, but the only ECUs I know that are > capable of using those pressure sensors for closed loop ignition are using a > dedicated DSP chip just to process the sensor's signal, and they _are_ the > ECUs, I mean they already knows where the crank is and when they fired the > cylinder they are monitoring. I believe the signal is extremely noisy and > somewhat hard to interpret properly in real time. The software has so many > adjustable parameters in the knock strategy section it makes me wonder how > long it takes to adapt it effectively to a particular engine. Note that I'm > not against progress (I believe I was the first to post references to the > NTK/NGK spark plug sensors here a while ago) it is also well known that Saab > and others pioneered innovative ways of sensing knock but for most of us, > the old way is still by far the best IMHO. > > --Axel > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jul 12 19:37:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA00459 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:37:43 -0700 Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA00452 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:37:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: hektor.valesh.com: Host webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11] claimed to be cgpro.iccx.net Received: from [206.168.145.90] (HELO [206.168.145.90]) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 63989949 for diy_efi@diy-efi.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:37:17 -0600 X-Sender: bearbvd@mail.cmn.net Messag