From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 16:46:13 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03096; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:46:13 GMT Received: from kaiwan.kaiwan.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03091; Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:46:09 -0500 Received: from kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (1300@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com [192.215.30.9]) by kaiwan.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA08115 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:46:01 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Received: (from patriot@localhost) by kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA27531; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:46:08 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:46:07 -0800 (PST) From: Nate To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Oxygen sensors In-Reply-To: <199411041334.AA25773@access4.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Andy Harrah wrote: > The loading scheme to detect a warm sensor was from the days before they > used self-heated sensors. The Chevy manuals claim the sensors will cool > off and the system will go open-loop during periods of extended idling. > That's new to me, I used to sit and idle alot, and it didn't change it's reading, just when I made it rich / lean... hey this may be the "first" sensors used, these new ones are better etc...?? From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 17:47:16 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03199; Fri, 4 Nov 94 17:47:16 GMT Received: from relay3.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03194; Fri, 4 Nov 94 12:47:11 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxopb18597; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:47:00 -0500 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA14233; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:47:36 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma014218; Fri Nov 4 11:46:56 1994 Received: from optilink.dsccc.com by camelot.dsccc.com (5.65c/SMI-V1.8) id AA17867; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:47:19 -0600 Received: from montreal by optilink.dsccc.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA22780; Fri, 4 Nov 94 09:45:58 PST From: marrone@optilink.dsccc.com (Frank Marrone) Message-Id: <9411040942.ZM872@montreal> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:42:11 -0800 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.1 23feb94) To: DIY_EFI, fordnatics@freud.arc.nasa.gov Subject: Small Motor Throttle Bodies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Can anyone recommend a small motor throttle body for a carb to EFI Do It Yourself project. The motor in question is a 1.6l 4-cylinder. I might also want musv of the rest of the electronics as well. I would like to find something common (cheap) and likely found at a wrecker. Thanks. -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sunbeam Alpine Series I B9009330 From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 18:36:26 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03365; Fri, 4 Nov 94 18:36:26 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03360; Fri, 4 Nov 94 13:36:23 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA09403; Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:34:34 MST Received: from emailchd by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA22276; Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:33:04 MST Received: by wdc.sps.mot.com (4.1/WDC-1.02) Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:32:56 MST Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:32:56 MST From: Mark Shaw Message-Id: <9411041832.AA12412@wdc.sps.mot.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Small Motor Throttle Bodies Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > From owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Fri Nov 4 11:19:52 1994 > From: marrone@optilink.dsccc.com (Frank Marrone) > Can anyone recommend a small motor throttle body for a carb > to EFI Do It Yourself project. The motor in question is a 1.6l > 4-cylinder. I might also want musv of the rest of the electronics > as well. I would like to find something common (cheap) and > likely found at a wrecker. I would recommend finding a Bosch K-Jetronic CIS system from a 1977 - 1984 VW car. This is really a bullet proof design, fairly simple to install and fairly self contained. I bought a complete manifold, throttle body, fuel flowmeter/distributor, and electronics module for less than $200 used. The added fuel punp and accumulator may add another $100. The worst part of the installation is the fuel pump circuit (but this is true of all EFI setups). The next tricky feature would be drilling your stock manifold for the injectors. Bosch has some good publications on their systems which would give you an idea of what you need. Mark From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 18:57:38 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03449; Fri, 4 Nov 94 18:57:38 GMT Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03444; Fri, 4 Nov 94 13:57:34 -0500 Received: from PTD.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (5.65/10.0i); Fri, 4 Nov 94 10:56:24 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 10:57:18 PST From: YOU LOOK LIKE A MILLION BUCKS - ALL GREEN & WRINKLY. Message-Id: <9411041857.utk6399@PTD.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: EFI Books To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Since my background is more computers than cars, I was wondering if >anyone could recommend a good book. Someone mentioned the Bosch Blue >book. I think I can get that one from Eric Waiter Associates. Is this >book one of the better ones? > >GB I second that request. From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 19:08:50 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03567; Fri, 4 Nov 94 19:08:50 GMT Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03562; Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:08:46 -0500 Received: from PTD.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (5.65/10.0i); Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:07:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:08:08 PST From: YOU LOOK LIKE A MILLION BUCKS - ALL GREEN & WRINKLY. Message-Id: <9411041908.utk7702@PTD.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: PCB / Cad progs To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I found a fairly nice (for shareware) shareware circuit drafting / PCB >layout package called PADS. Sits on Simtel. PC based, sorry John :) > >Anyway, this thing has all the symbols, 68000, 8031, 80x86, TTL, CMOS, >etc. It seems easy to add to this as well. Outputs Gerber, Postscript, etc. > >So : Maybe this should become a semi-standard for capturing and >distributing circuits. It's free, seems to work, has less annoying bits >than WordPerfect (for what that's worth...) etc. > >Wouter de Waal What is the most current version of this program and where can it be FTP'd from? Thanks! From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 20:01:33 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03730; Fri, 4 Nov 94 20:01:33 GMT Received: from linus.mitre.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03725; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:01:29 -0500 Received: from vlsi (vlsi.mitre.org [129.83.12.2]) by linus.mitre.org (8.6.7/RCF-6S) with SMTP id PAA23792; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:01:21 -0500 Received: from jackson.mitre.org by vlsi (5.61/MITRE-SS2) id AA21192; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:01:16 -0500 Received: by jackson.mitre.org (5.61/RCF-4C) id AA15779; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:01:27 -0500 Message-Id: <9411042001.AA15779@jackson.mitre.org> To: DIY_EFI Subject: What's the story? Cc: rmurray@mitre.org Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 15:01:26 EST From: "Roberto L. Landrau" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI ------- Forwarded Message Wouter de Waal wrote: WW>I found a fairly nice (for shareware) shareware circuit WW>drafting / PCB layout package called PADS. Sits on WW>Simtel. PC based, sorry John :) WW> WW>Anyway, this thing has all the symbols, 68000, 8031, WW>80x86, TTL, CMOS, etc. It seems easy to add to this as WW>well. Outputs Gerber, Postscript, etc. WW> WW>So : Maybe this should become a semi-standard for WW>capturing and distributing circuits. It's free, seems to WW>work, has less annoying bits than WordPerfect (for what WW>that's worth...) etc. ------- End of Forwarded Message I thought PADS was commercial, not Shareware... What is the deal here? Is there a simple version of it available for a "nominal fee"? From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 21:07:09 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04018; Fri, 4 Nov 94 21:07:09 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04013; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:06:59 -0500 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (mail.utexas.edu [128.83.126.1]) by smtp.utexas.edu (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA22779 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:03:29 -0600 From: BigBrother@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Received: from [128.83.204.66] (slip-1-66.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.204.66]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA23221 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:01:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199411042101.PAA23221@mail.utexas.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:02:20 -0600 To: DIY_EFI Subject: GALs- what are they? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I was just looking over John's 68hc000 board and I noticed there are 3 GALs on the board. Type: 16V8. What exactly do PALs and GALs do? They are some kind of programmable logic device aren't they? I checked my Jameco catalog and saw they are only $3, but the programmer is $700.00. Wow! That is pretty expensive. Do alternative programmers exist for less money? From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 21:17:38 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04154; Fri, 4 Nov 94 21:17:38 GMT Received: from [129.55.55.1] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04149; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:17:36 -0500 Received: from fuelrod ([129.55.57.2]) by juliet.ll.mit.edu id AA01673g; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:14:29 EST Received: from isotope.reactor by fuelrod (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01591; Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:17:05 MST Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:17:05 MST From: jvp%fuelrod@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Jim Pieronek) Message-Id: <9411042117.AA01591@fuelrod> Received: by isotope.reactor (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06523; Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:19:21 MST To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199411041548.IAA11210@pine.cse.nau.edu> Subject: Electronics specs questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI MTN-KAT writes: > I don't know diddly about electronics. I'm sitting here looking thru a > Digikey catalog trying to figure out which mosfet power transistors > and which opto-isolators to use for my project. the mosfets list > BVdss, Ip, Idm, Vgs, Rds and PD. From my reading in Practical > transistors and Linear IC's book, BVdss is the voltage to trigger the > transistor. All of these mosfets are 60V-120V, obviously I'm only > running 13.5V max, what am I missing? > BVdss is the breakdown voltage, drain to source, with the gate connected to the source (N-channel enhancement-mode FET off state). It is the voltage at which the transistor blows up, not where it turns on. Vgs(on) or Vgs(th) is the turn-on threshold voltage - usually 2.0 to 4.0 volts. BVgs is the max. gate voltage. > The opto-isolators list BVCEO(min), the smallest is a 7V with a > current transfer ratio of 250%, no specs for on/off time. From my > reading a darlington output should boost the current, the catalog > doesn't say how much. The isolation voltage is only 3000V for this > particular item, some list 5300V would they be better for isolating > the engine noise from the electronics? > BVceo(min) is the minimum breakdown voltage from the collector to the emitter with base open. Another blow-up parameter. Current transfer ratio tells you what the current boost is - put 1mA into the LED on that optoisolator and it will try to pass 2.5mA through the transistor. Isolation voltage should be more than enough. > I had ordered some logic level opto-isolators and they came with > schmitt trigger outputs, I tried to run these at slow speed 0.1 sec > and they just stayed in on mode, the data rate is supposed to be > 1.0MHz. Could I have been hooking them up wrong? > Yes, this is actually possible, particularly in cases where they don't work. > Is there a cross-reference manual available, I have a listing for some > logic level IGBT's, HGTP15N40C1 but Digikey doesn't have any part > numbers similar to this. The MOSFETs have a part number, IRF540, once > again no similar numbers in the catalog. > IRF540-ND is in the Digi-Key catalog. Look on the page with International Rectifier HEXFETs. From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 21:20:30 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04190; Fri, 4 Nov 94 21:20:30 GMT Received: from JULIET.WX.LL.MIT.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04185; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:20:28 -0500 Received: from fuelrod ([129.55.57.2]) by juliet.ll.mit.edu id AA01721g; Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:17:22 EST Received: from isotope.reactor by fuelrod (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01599; Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:19:58 MST Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:19:58 MST From: jvp%fuelrod@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Jim Pieronek) Message-Id: <9411042119.AA01599@fuelrod> Received: by isotope.reactor (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06525; Fri, 4 Nov 94 14:22:14 MST To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9411042001.AA15779@jackson.mitre.org> Subject: What's the story? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI "Roberto L. Landrau" writes: > > > I thought PADS was commercial, not Shareware... What is the > deal here? Is there a simple version of it available for a > "nominal fee"? > > > Yes. They sell it for $10 bucks. It is called TestDrive. It has a limit to the number of parts you can use (10 ICs I think). If you want more parts you have to buy the serious version. From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 22:01:47 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04324; Fri, 4 Nov 94 22:01:47 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04319; Fri, 4 Nov 94 17:01:44 -0500 Received: from dialup-3-229.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:58:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:59:04 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17147.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Electronics specs questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:48:29 -0700, MTN-KAT wrote: >I don't know diddly about electronics. I'm sitting here looking thru a Digikey >catalog trying to figure out... Not to confuse the issue, but I have used fiber-optics for all my projects. It is sort of a stretced out optoisolator. A real ME solution in an EE world. It really protects the PC from the wicked ignition noise if a typical spark ignition engine. The fiberoptic transmitter (visible red) is a Motorola MFOE76, available for about $2.50 each from Hamilton- Avnet (in quantities of 50). The reciever is a Honeywell SD4324 (infrared but it seems to work great), was available from DigiKey for about $12-13, but DigiKey no longer stocks these. One nice thing about F/O is that you can check to see that the signals are working without a scope. Just revolve the end of the cable with your hand in a small circle and look at how long the pulse looks. With a little experience and a fast, repeatable hand you can judge pulse widths! A great fuel injector driver is a Motorola MC3483-S4, available for about $4.50 each from Hamilton-Avnet (in quantities of 40 or 50). Later, Matt Matthew L. Franklin University of Minnesota Department of Mechanical Engineering 111 Church Street Southeast Minneapolis, MN 55455-0150 Phone: (612)625-4074 FAX: (612)624-1398 Home Phone/FAX: (612)331-3511 From owner-diy_efi Fri Nov 4 22:48:01 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04393; Fri, 4 Nov 94 22:48:01 GMT Received: from JULIET.WX.LL.MIT.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04388; Fri, 4 Nov 94 17:47:58 -0500 Received: from fuelrod ([129.55.57.2]) by juliet.ll.mit.edu id AA02273g; Fri, 4 Nov 94 17:44:48 EST Received: from isotope.reactor by fuelrod (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01646; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:47:23 MST Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:47:23 MST From: jvp%fuelrod@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Jim Pieronek) Message-Id: <9411042247.AA01646@fuelrod> Received: by isotope.reactor (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06558; Fri, 4 Nov 94 15:49:40 MST To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199411042101.PAA23221@mail.utexas.edu> Subject: GALs- what are they? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI BigBrother@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU writes: > I was just looking over John's 68hc000 board and I noticed there are 3 > GALs on the board. Type: 16V8. > > What exactly do PALs and GALs do? They are some kind of programmable > logic device aren't they? I checked my Jameco catalog and saw they > are only $3, but the programmer is $700.00. Wow! That is pretty > expensive. Do alternative programmers exist for less money? > Generic Array Logic was conjured up by Lattice to replace a whole schmeer of different Programmable Array Logic devices made by all sorts of vendors. A 16V8 has 18 pins. Two pins are for VCC and ground. 8 pins are programmable as input or output pins, and the remaining 8 are dedicated inputs. The 16V8 refers to a maximum of 16 inputs and 8 outputs, but not all at the same time. Each output consists of a D flip-flop that has a big (8-16 inputs) OR gate connected to the D input. Each of the OR inputs is connected to an AND gate that is hooked into the logic array. The array has all of the input pins, all of the output pins, and the inverted form of each in it. You can connect the AND inputs up to as many inputs in the array as you want, so you can generate sum-of-product equations with arbitrary products (AND terms) and up to 16 such terms ORed together. You can also bypass the D flip-flop to provide a purely combinatorial output. All of the flip-flops are clocked by pin 1 if you use the flip-flops. There are also open-collector and tri-state output control options. As far as costs, you need two things: a software package to compile the equations down to a fuse blowing file, and you need a programmer. Some companies offer free or nearly free software to work with their parts. Lattice is not such a company to my knowledge. Programmers can be had for around a hundred dollars - they may be limited to only a few devices. I use 22V10 and 26CV12 GALS (and the usual 7400 register parts - 74373, 374, 244, 245) for almost everything that I design. I suspect most other folks would do this too if they could afford the tools. Perhaps its time to get some heads together out there and build a public domain software tool and a real simple programmer that would hook up to a printer port to program just a few parts so everyone could use this technology. - Jim =================================================================== J. V. Pieronek Phone: (505) 243-5822 M.I.T. Lincoln Laboratory FAX: (505) 243-5823 Terminal Radar Development Facility Internet: jvp@ll.mit.edu Albuquerque, New Mexico From owner-diy_efi Sat Nov 5 03:25:35 1994 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06304; Sat, 5 Nov 94 03:25:35 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06298; Fri, 4 Nov 94 22:25:32 -0500 Message-Id: <9411050325.AA06298@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: GALs- what are they? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Nov 94 15:47:23 MST." <9411042247.AA01646@fuelrod> Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 22:25:31 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- In message <9411042247.AA01646@fuelrod> , you write: | Perhaps its time to get some heads together out there and build a | public domain software tool and a real simple programmer that would | hook up to a printer port to program just a few parts so everyone | could use this technology. It's been done.... I've not seen or used what follows, I use the programmer here at the lab for my needs, so take it for what it's worth.... -------------- cut here ---------------- In , Henry Spencer wrote: : In article <2rfiorINN3d5@fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at> mike@sztma.tu-graz.ac.at (Michael Schoeggl) writes: : >i'm currently working on a pal/gal programming device. : >could someone provide me some information on how to program these : >chips? : I believe we have an FAQ on this which appears occasionally... The fast : answer is that most manufacturers will not tell you how to blow the fuses : in their chips. Here's the latest version. Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com mzenier@netcom.com Subject: Homebuilt PAL (EPLD) programer : A FAQ [Last Revised: May 6, 1994 - Electronic Now project, In circuit programmables] So you want to build a logic device programmer. First, be aware that the manufacturers don't feel it's in their interest to give you enough information to build one. There's a couple of reasons. Some them make money by selling programmers and software. Some of them don't want to spend a lot of money trying to figure out why you (and thousands others like you) can't get parts to program (or worse, stay programmed) using your homemade programmer. So, starting around 1985, most manufacturers have removed this information from their databooks. Expect most CMOS parts to have proprietary algorithms. Also expect as parts are redesigned to be faster, the old programming algorithms may be obselete, or have certain parameters in them shift. But if you are convincing, some of the manufacturers will give you the information on a nondisclosure basis. (I've heard National and TI are pretty nice. Lattice and AMD, downright rude.) [I've try to get this information from NS... unsuccessful. -- jsg] And there is a new trend in industry that will help the hobbyist. Manufacturers would like to control their inventory, but the way older parts are programmed adds extra (possibly) expensive steps to the process of making a circuit board: procuring and inventorying the unprogrammed parts, programming them, reinventorying the programmed parts (and insuring they are programmed and marked correctly), making sure they are available to be inserted in the circuit board, and placed the right location ... And after all of that, the board is tested in Automatic Test Equipment. This automatic test equipment has the same sort of electronics that a device programmer has (and have been used for this at many companies). So why not design parts that can easily (without destroying connected circuitry) programmed during the final test stage and skip many of the steps mentioned in the previous paragraph. In order to do this, the semiconductor companies have to make the parts easy to program, and release the programming algorithms. Intel and Lattice with their Flex and ispLSI families are doing this. The following is aimed at the level of the basement hacker, restricted to lower complexity parts. Which is what I've found in the surplus market. Just remember that if you build your own programmer, factor in some money for test data (that is, destroyed parts). Unless you're using cheap parts, the $500 to $700 you tried to avoid spending for an inexpensive programmer could add up sooner than you expected. Here's a list of articles and databooks that I've scraped together. Grouped by devices supported and in order of usefulness (IMHO). 1. GALs (EEPROM based), from Lattice, National and SGS-Thomson "Build This PLD Programmer" by Robert G. Brown Electronics Now (magazine), May 1994 This is a simple programmer limited to the 16v8 and 20v8 parts. It consists of two circuit cards, one a general purpose parallel port for the IBM PC and a programmer card with the drivers, ZIF socket, and voltage regulators. (Very similar to the Elektor project.) Various kits and software available from R.G. Brown 30 Wicks Road E. Northport, NY 17731 "Project: GAL programmer" by Manfred Nosswitz. Elektor Electronics (magazine), May 1992 This is a simple (5 IC's, 7 transistors, 2 voltage reg.) board driven by a program (in this case for an IBM PC or clone) using the computer's printer port. It supports the 16v8, 20v8 original and A versions. "Project: GAL Programmer Upgrade" by M. Nosswitz Elektor Electronics, June 1993 An add-on board with a D/A converter to allow a variable programming voltage, and a new software driver. Now programs B version GALS, 22V10's, 20RA10's, and the GAL6001 PLA. The software and PC boards are available through the Elektor publishers/franchises in various countries. In the US this is Old Colony Sound Lab (the publishers of Audio Amateur, and the former publisher of the US edition of Elektor Electronics). Old Colony Sound Lab P.O. Box 243 Peterborough, NH 03458 (603) 924-6371 or -6526 Fax (603) 924-9467 In the UK Elektor Electronics (Publishing) P. O. Box 1414 Dorchester DT2 8YH England The item number for the software is 1701, the US price as of June 1993 is $22.30, the UK price 11.15 pounds. The software upgrade is item 1881, $21.50 or 10.75 pounds. The PC board is item 920030, US $22.30, UK 11.15 pounds. The PC board for the upgrade is 930060, $9.50 or 4.75 pounds. Back issues may still be available from Old Colony, otherwise the address is Worldwide Subcription Service, Ltd. Unit 4, Gibbs Reed Farm Pashley Road, Ticehurst TN5 7HE England "Generic Array Logic (GAL)" D. Gembris Elektor Electronics, April 1992 A description of the architechture of a GAL, along with the programming algorithms. Unfortunatly this describes the nonvolatile memory layout for the original version parts, and the A version parts would not work if this information were used. Some other information is left out, including describing the nonvolatile memory register that contains the part ID code and manufacturer. (This article is useful if you want to disassemble the software from the previous reference, but incomplete otherwise. Not really needed if you want to build and use the project as is.) 2. Cypress and Samsung (UVEPROM based) Contrary to the trend. Cypress Semiconductor published the algorithms for the simpler PLD chips they produced. They have since discontinued this. But as of the 1990 databook, they included the algorithms for their 16L8, 16R8, 16R6, 16R4, 20G10 (like a smaller 22v10), and their 22v10 devices. Judging from the algorithms in their 1988 databook, Samsung is a second source for Cypress. Their CPL 20 family is the same as the Cypress devices. In addition, they have 24 pin devices with the same technology that implement the 20L10, 20L8, 20R8, 20R6, and 20R4 devices. "EPLD programmer design" John Cromie Electronics & Wireless World, February 1989 An article describing a single chip microprocessor driven programmer (using a Hitachi 63701) that programs the devices. "Contact the author for software.", a common trend in this publication's "projects". 3. PEEL18CV8 (EEPROM), from International CMOS Technology, Gould AMI "Create Your Own IC's", Bill Green Popular Electronics, January 1990 A single board Z80 based programmer for the PEEL18CV8 using keyboard entry. No algorithm description. PLD and EPROM for z80 program needed to duplicate. (Listed price was cheap, about $80 in 1990.) 4. Classic Bipolar Fuse Programmed PALS from MMI, National, TI "A PAL Programmer" and "Getting Started with PALS" , Robert A. Freedman Byte, January 1987 A programmer for the original PAL family (too many to list). Implemented in the form of a IBM PC expansion card. (And sold for a while by Microway). Design is implemented with PALs. PAL Programmable Array Logic Handbook Monolithic Memories, 1981 or "Designing with Programmable Array Logic", Tech. Staff of Monolithic Memories McGraw-Hill, 1981 A hardback copy of the MMI databook, including the programming algorithms. Interface, Bipolar LSI, Bipolar Memory, Programmable Logic Databook National Semiconductor, 1983 Databook back when they still published the algorithms. The TTL Data Book, Volume 4, Bipolar Programmable Logic and Memory Texas Instruments, 1985 Databook back when they still published the algorithms. The IC Master, 1986 TI actually published some of the algorithms in the advertising pages in the Custom/Semicustom section. 5. AMD version of the classic PALS (Fuse Programmed) Programmable Array Logic Handbook Advanced Micro Devices, 1986-1987 This has the algorithms for the bipolar amPAL devices that existed at the time, including the amPAL22V10. These differ from the 1983 algorithms, which were preliminary. 6. PLS153, PLS159 from Signetics (Fuse Programmed) AN12, "Low Cost Programmer for PLD 20-Pin Series" Programmable Logic Data Manual Signetics, 1987 A programmer for the low end 20 pin PLA family. Implemented in those devices. Device mapping for only two of the members. (Earlier databooks may have this information.) 7. PLS100, from Signetics (Fuse Programmed) "Programming p.l.d.s", V. Lakshminarayanan Electronics & Wireless World, January and February 1988 A circuit description for a programmer for the oldest Signetics PLA device. No Algorithm. Contact author for software. Bipolar and Mos Memory Databook Signetics, 1980 Algorithm desciption. (IMHO, why bother ;-) ) Mark Zenier markz@ssc.wa.com markz@ssc.com --------------- cut here ------------------ and yet more!!! --------------- cut here ------------------ In article <1993Nov29.231110.21655@msc.cornell.edu>, wrote: >Hi all, > I have just received the latest issue of Circuit Cellar Ink (Dec 93 >#41) and it describes FPGAs that are programmed by an external EPROM! It is a >Xilinx 3000 part. After reading the article it seems that the software >required to capture the design and turn it into INTEL HEX for the EPROM is >about $1000 :-(. Certainly too much for a hobbyist. I'm just wondering if >anyone on the net has had experience with this Xilinx part, or any >suggestions that I can hack out a Xilinx 3000 compiler myself so that I >don't have to spend any real money to use FPGAs. Xilinx is not interested in helping anyone do this for a reasonable amount of money. Might I suggest an alternative: The Intel Flexlogic series. Features: - SRAM based with one time programmable EPROM that loads the RAM. - Is not a FPGA (even though the marketing folks are calling it so.) It's a complex GAL. The 780 has 8 24x10 gals with a 100% interconnect matrix inbetween. Each GAL can be configured as a 128x10 SRAM also. Equivalent gates is appx 5000 gates. - 10ns prop delay, 80 Mhz max clock speed. OK now the good stuff, - Data sheets, programming specs, and examples are available from Intels Fax service. Number is 1-800-628-2283 - Programmed via a 5 wire JTAG interface. Intel has a cable that hooks up to you PC parallel port. There is also specs for building a microncontroller based loader. - Intel is giving away the design software. Call 1-800-548-4725. Runs on 386 PC's with VGA. - Parts Come in 2 packages - 84 Pin PGA and 132 Pin QFP. I've been quoteed at $44 apiece for the 84 pin part in singles. The software in on backorder (4 weeks ;-() Anyway I plan on building lots of cool stuff with it. So forget Xilinx - Intel's FPGA is definitely for the hobbiest. -------------- cut here ---------------- Sorry for the long post.... John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------