From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 1 22:48:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06453; Wed, 1 Feb 95 22:48:15 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06448; Wed, 1 Feb 95 17:48:12 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA16437; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:48:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:48:08 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9502012248.AA16437@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Knock Knock Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Here's a question I have always wondered about...... How do the microphinic knock sensors work? Do they put out a signal proportional to the "knock"? Are they narrow-band devices tuned to the frequency that the knock generates? I have always wanted to know! ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 02:12:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07362; Thu, 2 Feb 95 02:12:57 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07357; Wed, 1 Feb 95 21:12:07 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA06277 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:11:57 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert joseph dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA11333 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:10:47 +1100 Message-Id: <199502020210.NAA11333@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Thanks!! To: DIY_EFI (DIY_EFI ) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:10:45 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9502012214.AA93144@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU> from "Mike Taylor" at Feb 1, 95 03:14:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2141 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Mike et al. > Now, you mentioned that sequential fuel injection is pointless at high > power ranges, but I still have trouble with the idea of dumpin' fuel into a > cylinder when the intake valve is closed. Yeah I know turbulence should > keep the fuel suspended and that this happening 50 times a second at 6000 > RPM's but.... Many OEM efi system deliberately fire the injectors while the inlet valves are closed. This ensures that the back pressure on the injectors is even and thus all the cylinders get similar fuel rates. A side benefit of this scheme is that a full sequential system is not required as it doesn't matter when the fuel is injected at low duty cycles as long as it's when the valve is closed. A banked (eg. 2 banks of three injectors for a 6 cyl) system suffices. On the other hand, I've come across a few research reports which detail the fractional improvements in efficiency, response and power output possible when the end of injection timing is optimised for sequential systems. The main benefits appear to be in ultra lean burn high turbulence systems at light loads. There is also the issue of pressure fluctuations in the fuel rail. Sequential firing lessens the pressure drop resulting from injector opening as the events are spread out evenly. It also allows pressure oscillation feedback measurements for individual cylinders which can be used to detect faulty injectors and to estimate individual injector fuel flow characterisitics. The overall injector noise can also be less. Ultimately sequential injection is my final aim, but for now, my two bank plus proportional auxilary staged injection system will suffice. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 02:19:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07437; Thu, 2 Feb 95 02:19:36 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07432; Wed, 1 Feb 95 21:19:32 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA06434 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:19:31 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert joseph dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA11345 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:18:23 +1100 Message-Id: <199502020218.NAA11345@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Knock Knock To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:18:20 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9502012248.AA16437@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> from "Bruce Bowling" at Feb 1, 95 05:48:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1535 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bruce writes, > > Here's a question I have always wondered about...... > > How do the microphinic knock sensors work? Do they > put out a signal proportional to the "knock"? > Are they narrow-band devices tuned to the frequency > that the knock generates? > > I have always wanted to know! Knock sensors are basically little accelerometers. They come in various forms including broad and narrow band responses. Usually an OEM application will be tuned by placing various sensors of different resonant frequencies at various places around the engine. Incorrect sensor placement or choice will still work but the signal to noise ratio is lessened. The electronics required would include a notch frequency filter and a time based filter which passed signals 10 - 80 deg ATDC. After that it's an even bigger job of detecting knock above the normal backround noise at those freqencies (which varies with load, speed etc.). The knock frequency of an engine is dependent on the cylinder dimensions and the gas temperature. It's usually around 5 - 8 kHz. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 05:00:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08157; Thu, 2 Feb 95 05:00:12 GMT Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08152; Thu, 2 Feb 95 00:00:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) id XAA10537 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 23:00:08 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 23:00:08 -0600 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199502020500.XAA10537@eagle.natinst.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: 67f687 data sheets Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Could someone email me a uuencoded copy of the electronic version of the 67f687 data sheet. Tony from SSi sent me some encoded version of 67F687.pdf b I can't figure out how to decode it. Perhaps this could be put on a www or ftp site. Thanks. mike From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 07:02:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08723; Thu, 2 Feb 95 07:02:34 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08718; Thu, 2 Feb 95 02:02:30 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA14336 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:02:26 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert joseph dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA11638 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 18:01:16 +1100 Message-Id: <199502020701.SAA11638@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: 67f687 data sheets To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 18:01:14 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502020500.XAA10537@eagle.natinst.com> from "Mike Klopfer" at Feb 1, 95 11:00:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 746 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi, I've got a couple of requests Firstly I'm also after any techo data on the SSI 6767f687. I'm also after any info regarding the availability of these devices. Have SSI gone into full production and/or will they be available for some time to come? Thanks in advance. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 19:24:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12669; Thu, 2 Feb 95 19:24:15 GMT Received: from mercury.uah.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12664; Thu, 2 Feb 95 14:24:12 -0500 Received: from rigelras.uah.ualberta.ca by mercury.uah.ualberta.ca (5.4.2/200.1.1.4) id AA23060; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:20:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:20:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: agc@mercury.uah.ualberta.ca (Andrei Chichak) Subject: Re: 67f687 data sheets Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Could someone email me a uuencoded copy of the electronic version of the >67f687 data sheet. Tony from SSi sent me some encoded version of 67F687.pdf b >I can't figure out how to decode it. Perhaps this could be put on a www or ftp >site. Thanks. > >mike pdf is a Macintosh format used by a program called Acrobat by Adobe. I have a copy of Acrobat. If you could send me the pdf (UUencoded or as is) I will take a peek and see if I can get it into a more usefull form. There are Acrobat readers for PCs as well as UN*X boxes, that may be another way to go. Andrei -- Andrei Chichak | Information Systems agc@mercury.uah.ualberta.ca | University of Alberta Hospitals (403) 492 - 4431 (work) | 8440 112 Street Edmonton, Alberta (403) 492 - 3090 (fax) | CANADA T6G 2B7 http://cooper-s.uah.ualberta.ca From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 2 22:41:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24683; Thu, 2 Feb 95 22:41:49 GMT Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24678; Thu, 2 Feb 95 17:41:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA14833 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:41:43 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:41:43 -0600 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199502022241.QAA14833@eagle.natinst.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: 67f687 data sheets Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Thanks for the info on acrobat but I found an acrobat reader and it can't reads the file nor the files that are produced be munpack (a mime decoder). Anyway the file mail that I received is on ftp.io.com in directory /pub/usr/zxcvb/others/b/67f687dataSheet. It may have been meesed up by my mail reader so if someone else has the pdf file I'd appreciate a copy. Thanks again. mike From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 7 02:53:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18347; Tue, 7 Feb 95 02:53:14 GMT Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18342; Mon, 6 Feb 95 21:53:10 -0500 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA11069 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:53:08 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:53:08 -0600 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199502070253.UAA11069@eagle.natinst.com> To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I finally got the data sheets for the 67f687 where I can read them. SSi says there coming out with a www site soon with the data sheets on it. They asked me not to distribute them on any server. Tony at Tony_Anderson/SSI1.SSI1@pc329u.tus.ssi1.com was very helpful about getting the data sheets. I'm interested in the price of small quantities of these chips. I was wondering if anyone has looked into it or already ordered some and could suggest a good contact and what I might expect to pay. Also I have an old 2.3 liter 4 cylinder Ford engine that I was wanting to convert to a test bed. Since this chip seems to require cam and crankshaft timing pulses I'm wondering if the latest distributorless efi versions of this engine generate timing signals from both cam and crankshaft. Or perhaps I could get the camshaft timing from the distributor. mike From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 7 18:20:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22339; Tue, 7 Feb 95 18:20:49 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA22334; Tue, 7 Feb 95 13:20:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9502071820.AA22334@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA22433; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:20:41 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: your mail To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 11:20:41 MST In-Reply-To: <199502070253.UAA11069@eagle.natinst.com>; from "Mike Klopfer" at Feb 6, 95 8:53 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Also I have an old 2.3 liter 4 cylinder Ford engine that I was wanting to >convert to a test bed. Since this chip seems to require cam and crankshaft >timing pulses I'm wondering if the latest distributorless efi versions of this >engine generate timing signals from both cam and crankshaft. Or perhaps I could >get the camshaft timing from the distributor. Yes. You can make your timing pickup (a star-shaped piece of metal) into a two-level kind of thing. The first (existing) level would be used by your standard pickup coil, generating 180' pulses. The other 'level' would be made by you grinding off three of the four lobes (but only on the 'upper' or 'lower' half of it), and using a second pickup. Note that the second pickup may need to have the magnetic polarity set up to match the first pickup. It's a bit of work, but probably less than modifying the engine's internals to generate the pulses. The 1.9L Fords have a crankshaft pickup with a lot of teeth, and a cam pickup to sync the ECM to the engine for SEFI timing. The ignition module doesn't need this signal, though. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 7 23:40:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12192; Tue, 7 Feb 95 23:40:20 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12180; Tue, 7 Feb 95 18:40:01 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA09322 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:39:53 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199502072339.AA09322@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: (Fwd) RX7 injector flow rates. To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:39:52 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2589 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, Over on RX7 club there's been discussions of injector flow rates. Here's a test someone (Rob Gallant) performed. Forwarded for your viewing pleasure :-) > Here's the details on the injector measurements: > > Pressure: 37 psi > Test Fluid: Paint thinner > Fluid Density: .77 gm/cc > Temp: 65 F > Humidity: 50 % > Peak Current: 4.3 > Coil Resistance: 2.2 ohms > Static pull in current: 320 ma > Coil Inductance: 7.2 mh > Static dropout current 160 ma ('86), 85 ma (GSL-SE) > Static flow rate: 71.87 ('86), 107.6 lb/hr (GSL-SE) > Opening Delay: 1.8 ms > Closing Delay: 1.8 ms > Opening time with no flow: 1.5 ms > Closing time with no flow: 1.5 ms > > '85 GSL-SE Injectors: > > On Peak Cycle Total Total On Mass Flow > Time Time Time Cycles Time Rate > > 1 ms 1 ms 10 ms 16000 16.5 ms 29.4 lb/hr > 1.5 1 10 8000 12.2 59.0 > 2 2 20 8000 16.2 76.3 > 4 2 20 4000 16.3 92.5 > 6 2 20 4000 24.1 94.0 > 8 2 20 2000 16.1 95.6 > 10 2 20 2000 20.1 96.6 > 12 2 20 2000 24.1 99.0 > 14 2 20 2000 28.1 100.2 > 16 2 20 2000 32.1 102.2 > 18 2 20 2000 36.1 104.5 > > '86 Non Turbo Injectors: > > On Peak Cycle Total Total On Mass Flow > Time Time Time Cycles Time Rate > > 1 ms 1 ms 10ms 16000 16.5 22.5 > 1.5 1 10 8000 12.2 34.6 > 2 2 20 8000 16.3 52.5 > 4 2 20 4000 16.3 60.0 > 6 2 20 4000 24.1 62.0 > 8 2 20 2000 16.1 63.5 > 10 2 20 2000 20.1 64.7 > 12 2 20 2000 24.1 65.1 > 14 2 20 2000 28.1 66.5 > 16 2 20 2000 32.1 68.5 > 18 2 20 2000 36.1 70.6 > > I also put a scope on my car while driving and found the pulse width of the > injectors varies with throttle position. Max pulse time is approx 10 ms. This > is full throttle below 3750 rpm, so only the primaries are firing. Above 3750 > the primaries and secondaries fire at the same time, with a max pulse width of 5 > ms. > > So at 5 ms, two '86 injectors flow about 122 lb/hr of fuel. With the secondary > replaced with a GSL-SE injector, this will be: 61 + 93 = 154 lb/hr. This > represents an increase of approximately 26.3 %. > > Later > > Rob > gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil > > Craig, pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 8 15:54:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14615; Wed, 8 Feb 95 15:54:09 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14610; Wed, 8 Feb 95 10:54:04 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA01524; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:54:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:54:01 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9502081554.AA01524@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Driving Injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI What is the best (or most often-used) FET transistors for driving 2 ohm fuel injectors? I have used the Motorola injector driver chip in the past, but these are hard to get. Thanks - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 8 17:06:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15175; Wed, 8 Feb 95 17:06:09 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15170; Wed, 8 Feb 95 12:06:04 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA12437; Wed, 8 Feb 95 12:01:07 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA13240; Wed, 8 Feb 95 10:59:21 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA13165; Wed, 8 Feb 95 10:58:53 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA07098; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:00:57 +0600 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:00:57 +0600 Message-Id: <9502081700.AA07098@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Driving Injectors Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The fuel injector firing tool I'm finishing building uses a Phillips enhancement mode power MOSFET with integral suppression diode (I don't remember the part number off of my head); it will easily drive a 3 ohms peak-and-hold injector or low impedance saturated switch injector (I use a 10 ohms 5 W series resistor in series for the latter). With MOSFETs the main problem is that turn-off time is so low that a large back EMF kick develops across the injector -- I've measured about 500 volts (yes, 1/2 kV). I tried using a NE-2 bulb as a surge suppressor but that didn't help (it was, however, the *brightest* neon bulb I've ever seen in my life). I now use a reverse-biased LED as a surge suppressor since it not only suppresses the kick but also gives a visual indication of magnetic field collapse. Incidently, the component was recommended by a friend who used to design high voltage power supplies for Zenith's color television sets. Send me e-mail if you want a copy of the spec sheets (bohdan.l.bodnar@att.com). Regards, Bohdan From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 9 05:54:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20827; Thu, 9 Feb 95 05:54:42 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20822; Thu, 9 Feb 95 00:54:38 -0500 Message-Id: <9502090554.AA20822@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA03962; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 22:54:37 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Driving Injectors To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 22:54:37 MST In-Reply-To: <9502081554.AA01524@cebaf4.cebaf.gov>; from "Bruce Bowling" at Feb 8, 95 10:54 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > What is the best (or most often-used) FET transistors > for driving 2 ohm fuel injectors? I have used the Motorola > injector driver chip in the past, but these are hard to get. Use an MTP3055EL, clamp zener, and a big resistor. The resistor is necessary. Otherwise, you'll roast the injectors. There's a National Semi chip that drives a bipolar transistor (the older GM ECMs use this). I don't remember the number offhand, but it's in the National Semi Linear 3 book, or in 'Special Functions'. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 9 09:15:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21120; Thu, 9 Feb 95 09:15:43 GMT Received: from osceola.cs.ucf.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21115; Thu, 9 Feb 95 04:15:38 -0500 Received: from alfred.UUCP by osceola.cs.ucf.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA03141; Thu, 9 Feb 95 04:15:47 EST Received: by alfred.oau.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Thu, 9 Feb 95 04:12 EST Received: by satlink.oau.org (0.99 pl3) id AA07146; 09 Feb 95 04:05:06 -0500 From: Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org (Hector Navarro) Date: 08 Feb 95 10:43:00 -0500 Subject: Mustang Mailing List? Message-Id: <1cf_9502090405@satlink.oau.org> Organization: Central Florida Sat-Link To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Could someone please tell me if there is a mustang mailing list/club here on the internet and if so what is the address? Thanks in advance! -- |Fidonet: Hector Navarro 1:363/253 |Internet: Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. | From C.F.Satlink +1-407-240-7781 (ANSI or Vt-100 _required_). From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 9 13:34:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21374; Thu, 9 Feb 95 13:34:22 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21369; Thu, 9 Feb 95 08:34:17 -0500 Received: from dialup-4-33.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 9 Feb 95 07:32:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 07:32:59 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <16831.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Driving Injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >There's a National Semi chip that drives a bipolar transistor >(the older GM ECMs use this). I don't remember the number >offhand, but it's in the National Semi Linear 3 book, or in >'Special Functions'. I think it is the LM-1949. Matt From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 9 22:30:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23457; Thu, 9 Feb 95 22:30:45 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23452; Thu, 9 Feb 95 17:30:40 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rchNj-000vJ7C; Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:30 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rchNa-000ugiC; Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:30 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:30:25 CST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:29:43 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Mustang Mailing List? To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org (Hector Navarro) Wrote: | | | | Could someone please tell me if there is a mustang mailing | list/club here on | the internet and if so what is the address? Thanks in advance! To: Multiple, recipients, of, list, VETTES, Cc: Bcc: From: John Ernst Subject: Re: help with ... mustangs (argh!) Date: Friday, September 2, 1994 at 10:17:23 am CDT Attach: Certify: N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In case you haven't gotten an answer yet... Automotive Related Mailing Lists Last update: 7-Feb-94. There are a number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics. Most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail; where separate administrative addresses exist, I have listed those below, as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests. Acura: (see Honda list below) American Sedan: asedan-request@pms706.pms.ford.com SCCA road race class, 5.0L Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds Audi: quattro-request@aries.east.sun.com Autocross/Solo: autox-request@autox.team.net, regular & digest BMW: bmw-request@balltown.cma.com British Cars: british-cars-request@autox.team.net, regular & digest Buick Grand National/Turbo Regal/GNX: gnttype- request@srvsn2.monsanto.com) Camaro/Firebird: f-body-request@boogie.EBay.Sun.COM) [May be unreliable] Corvair: bryan@mitre.org Corvettes: There are two lists; the first is more of a competition oriented list, and the second is more general in nature. Competition: vettes-request@pms706.pms.ford.com General: vettes-request@asuvm.inre.asu.edu Datsun/Fairlady Roadsters: datsun-roadsters-request@autox.team.net Dodge Stealth/Mitsubishi 3000GT: stealth- req%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu) Drag Racing: dragnet-request@chiller.compaq.com) Eclipse/Talon/Laser: talon-request@di.com Electric Vehicles: info-ev-request@ymir.claremont.edu Exotic-Cars: exotic-cars-request@sol.asl.hitachi.com Fabrication: (race cars) racefab@pms703.pms.ford.com Ford: fords-request@freud.arc.nasa.gov Ford Festiva: wd22yl@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov Hondas: listserv@brownvm.brown.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub HONDA-L your-real-name" with no subject line in the header Hot Rods: hotrod-request@dsea.com International Harvester: (discussion of Scouts, pickups, etc.) ihc-request@balltown.cma.com Italian Cars: italian-cars-request@balltown.cma.com; both regular and digest forms available, with an ALFA page available. Jaguars: scott@wapsy.uwa.oz.au Karting: karting-request@cmr.com Kit Cars: kitcar-request@cs.usask.ca Land Rovers: land-rover-owner-request@stratus.com Lotus: lotus-cars-request@netcom.com Mazdas: mazda-list-request@ms.uky.edu Miata: listserv@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub miata your-real-name" with no subject line in the header. Merkurs: merkur-request@pcad.UUCP Mopar: (mostly high performance Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth products) mopar@casbah.acns.nwu.edu MR2: mr2-interest-request@validgh.com Mustangs: There are two lists, the first is for Mustangs through 1973, the second for Mustangs from 1980 on. Nobody cares about the Mustang II, so don't ask. classic: classic-mustangs-request@hpfctjc.fc.hp.com modern: mustangs-request@cup.hp.com Offroad & 4X4: offroad-request@ai.gtri.gatech.edu Porsches: porschephiles-request@tta.com Portland, Oregon Motorsports Activities: pdxracer-request@reed.edu Race Car Fabrication: racefab@pms703.pms.ford.com Rally: rally-request@stratus.com RX7: jjn@cblpf.ATT.COM Saabs: saab@network.mhs.compuserve.com Saturn: saturn-request@oar.net School: (high performance driving schools) school- request@balltown.cma.com Sentra SE-R, G20, N2000: se-r-request@world.std.com Supras: supras-request@vicor.com Taurus SHO: shotimes-request@cutting.hou.tx.us Toyota: toyota-request@quack.sac.ca.us Toyota Corolla: corolla-request@mcs.com Triumph TR7/V8, TR8: jtc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Volvos: swedishbricks-request@me.rochester.edu Wheel-to-Wheel Racing: forum for race drivers, workers, crew, and wannabes: wheeltowheel-request@abingdon.sun.com Z-Cars: Nissan/Datsun z-car-request@dixie.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = JOHN@aci1.aci.ns.ca 67 Lotus Europa S1 4 speed = = John Ernst - Atlantic Computer Institute 91 Beretta GTZ 5 speed = = Halifax, N.S. CANADA (902) 423-8383 85 Corvette 7 speed = = The 1994 Walker/DynoMax Performance Mufflers Camaro.... = = See it... Hear it... Catch it... if you can............ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From owner-diy_efi Sun Feb 12 21:45:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04940; Sun, 12 Feb 95 21:45:31 GMT Received: from osceola.cs.ucf.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04933; Sun, 12 Feb 95 16:45:26 -0500 Received: from alfred.UUCP by osceola.cs.ucf.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA13303; Sun, 12 Feb 95 16:45:30 EST Received: by alfred.oau.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sun, 12 Feb 95 16:32 EST Received: by satlink.oau.org (0.99 pl3) id AA07324; 12 Feb 95 16:02:49 -0500 From: Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org (Hector Navarro) Date: 08 Feb 95 10:43:00 -0500 Subject: Mustang Mailing List? Message-Id: Organization: Central Florida Sat-Link To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Could someone please tell me if there is a mustang mailing list/club here on the internet and if so what is the address? Thanks in advance! -- |Fidonet: Hector Navarro 1:363/253 |Internet: Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. | From C.F.Satlink +1-407-240-7781 (ANSI or Vt-100 _required_). From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 13 19:52:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10301; Mon, 13 Feb 95 19:52:24 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10278; Mon, 13 Feb 95 14:52:18 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA12228 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:01:28 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA01795; Mon, 13 Feb 95 11:53:50 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502131953.AA01795@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Archives and/or faq? To: DIY_EFI (EFI) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:53:49 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 198 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi I brought over the www archives. They seemed to only cover a period around may 94. Are there other sources of archives or faq or more details of work in progress, circuits, etc? thanks cat From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 13 20:43:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11006; Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:43:44 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10994; Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:43:41 -0500 Message-Id: <9502132043.AA10994@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Archives and/or faq? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Feb 95 11:53:49 PST." <9502131953.AA01795@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:43:41 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- In message <9502131953.AA01795@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> , you write: | I brought over the www archives. They seemed to only cover a period | around may 94. Are there other sources of archives or faq or more | details of work in progress, circuits, etc? the complete archive is available through majordomo on this machine. send 'help' to majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. you'll then want to send an 'index' command to list the available files. you will find the archive broken up into what is now monthly increments with names like 'archive_num_59'. There are also the self explanatory files 'archive_date_index' and 'archive_current'. One of these days I'm going to create an automated monthly posting... John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 13 20:47:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11076; Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:47:32 GMT Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11071; Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:47:26 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:43:08 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.2; from fridman@localhost) id ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:46:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:46:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199502132046.NAA13902@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Archives and/or faq? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > I brought over the www archives. They seemed to only cover a period > around may 94. Are there other sources of archives or faq or more > details of work in progress, circuits, etc? > > thanks > > cat > The archives on our www are way out of date. Its one of the things that needs to be updated and I have a lot of extra material to add. The archives are split into MANY parts. You can get the index of the archives yourself by mailing to the list server and requesting the archive file. If using UNIX: % mail majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: help This will get a list of all the commands the list server understands. % mail majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: index diy_efi This will get an index of all files available from the mailing list. % mail majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: get diy_efi archive_num_4 This wil get that archive. Let me know if you have any other questions/problems. RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 71 Super Beetle fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca 84 320i From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 13 22:20:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11381; Mon, 13 Feb 95 22:20:31 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11376; Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:20:28 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0re8w7-000vMDC; Mon, 13 Feb 95 16:08 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0re8qI-000ugmC; Mon, 13 Feb 95 16:02 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 13 Feb 95 16:02:01 CST Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 14:34:50 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Mustang Mailing List? To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hector.Navarro%253@satlink.oau.org (Hector Navarro) Wrote: | | | | Could someone please tell me if there is a mustang mailing | list/club here on | the internet and if so what is the address? Thanks in advance! To: Multiple, recipients, of, list, VETTES, Cc: Bcc: From: John Ernst Subject: Re: help with ... mustangs (argh!) Date: Friday, September 2, 1994 at 10:17:23 am CDT Attach: Certify: N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In case you haven't gotten an answer yet... Automotive Related Mailing Lists Last update: 7-Feb-94. There are a number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics. Most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail; where separate administrative addresses exist, I have listed those below, as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests. Acura: (see Honda list below) American Sedan: asedan-request@pms706.pms.ford.com SCCA road race class, 5.0L Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds Audi: quattro-request@aries.east.sun.com Autocross/Solo: autox-request@autox.team.net, regular & digest BMW: bmw-request@balltown.cma.com British Cars: british-cars-request@autox.team.net, regular & digest Buick Grand National/Turbo Regal/GNX: gnttype- request@srvsn2.monsanto.com) Camaro/Firebird: f-body-request@boogie.EBay.Sun.COM) [May be unreliable] Corvair: bryan@mitre.org Corvettes: There are two lists; the first is more of a competition oriented list, and the second is more general in nature. Competition: vettes-request@pms706.pms.ford.com General: vettes-request@asuvm.inre.asu.edu Datsun/Fairlady Roadsters: datsun-roadsters-request@autox.team.net Dodge Stealth/Mitsubishi 3000GT: stealth- req%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu) Drag Racing: dragnet-request@chiller.compaq.com) Eclipse/Talon/Laser: talon-request@di.com Electric Vehicles: info-ev-request@ymir.claremont.edu Exotic-Cars: exotic-cars-request@sol.asl.hitachi.com Fabrication: (race cars) racefab@pms703.pms.ford.com Ford: fords-request@freud.arc.nasa.gov Ford Festiva: wd22yl@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov Hondas: listserv@brownvm.brown.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub HONDA-L your-real-name" with no subject line in the header Hot Rods: hotrod-request@dsea.com International Harvester: (discussion of Scouts, pickups, etc.) ihc-request@balltown.cma.com Italian Cars: italian-cars-request@balltown.cma.com; both regular and digest forms available, with an ALFA page available. Jaguars: scott@wapsy.uwa.oz.au Karting: karting-request@cmr.com Kit Cars: kitcar-request@cs.usask.ca Land Rovers: land-rover-owner-request@stratus.com Lotus: lotus-cars-request@netcom.com Mazdas: mazda-list-request@ms.uky.edu Miata: listserv@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub miata your-real-name" with no subject line in the header. Merkurs: merkur-request@pcad.UUCP Mopar: (mostly high performance Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth products) mopar@casbah.acns.nwu.edu MR2: mr2-interest-request@validgh.com Mustangs: There are two lists, the first is for Mustangs through 1973, the second for Mustangs from 1980 on. Nobody cares about the Mustang II, so don't ask. classic: classic-mustangs-request@hpfctjc.fc.hp.com modern: mustangs-request@cup.hp.com Offroad & 4X4: offroad-request@ai.gtri.gatech.edu Porsches: porschephiles-request@tta.com Portland, Oregon Motorsports Activities: pdxracer-request@reed.edu Race Car Fabrication: racefab@pms703.pms.ford.com Rally: rally-request@stratus.com RX7: jjn@cblpf.ATT.COM Saabs: saab@network.mhs.compuserve.com Saturn: saturn-request@oar.net School: (high performance driving schools) school- request@balltown.cma.com Sentra SE-R, G20, N2000: se-r-request@world.std.com Supras: supras-request@vicor.com Taurus SHO: shotimes-request@cutting.hou.tx.us Toyota: toyota-request@quack.sac.ca.us Toyota Corolla: corolla-request@mcs.com Triumph TR7/V8, TR8: jtc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Volvos: swedishbricks-request@me.rochester.edu Wheel-to-Wheel Racing: forum for race drivers, workers, crew, and wannabes: wheeltowheel-request@abingdon.sun.com Z-Cars: Nissan/Datsun z-car-request@dixie.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = JOHN@aci1.aci.ns.ca 67 Lotus Europa S1 4 speed = = John Ernst - Atlantic Computer Institute 91 Beretta GTZ 5 speed = = Halifax, N.S. CANADA (902) 423-8383 85 Corvette 7 speed = = The 1994 Walker/DynoMax Performance Mufflers Camaro.... = = See it... Hear it... Catch it... if you can............ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 14 02:11:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12398; Tue, 14 Feb 95 02:11:18 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12393; Mon, 13 Feb 95 21:11:16 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13104 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:20:29 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA01897; Mon, 13 Feb 95 18:12:49 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502140212.AA01897@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Archives and/or faq? To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:12:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199502132046.NAA13902@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> from "Robert Fridman" at Feb 13, 95 01:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 45 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Thanks. I should have thought of that. cat From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 14 03:28:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12556; Tue, 14 Feb 95 03:28:59 GMT Received: from CyberSpace.CyberAuto.Com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12551; Mon, 13 Feb 95 22:28:56 -0500 Received: (from cmyer@localhost) by cyberspace.cyberauto.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA04842 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:15:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:15:34 -0500 From: Chris Myer Message-Id: <199502140315.WAA04842@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Archives and/or faq? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 14 13:54:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13306; Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:54:14 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13301; Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:54:12 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15402; Tue, 14 Feb 95 05:52:31 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HN11XIPA8G0077ED@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 05:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07469; Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:55:21 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950214085137.480; 14 Feb 95 08:53:56 +0500 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:49:20 ET From: John T Stein Subject: To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have tried to get information about the "kit car" list, but this appears to be a bad address. Does anyone know if this list has gone out of existance?? Has a new address?? John From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 14 13:54:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13313; Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:54:23 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13308; Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:54:21 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15405; Tue, 14 Feb 95 05:52:40 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HN11XRSFTS007BQV@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB07469; Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:55:28 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950214085137.512; 14 Feb 95 08:54:02 +0500 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:50:57 ET From: John T Stein Subject: To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI get archive_current From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 14 20:37:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17099; Tue, 14 Feb 95 20:37:26 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17094; Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:37:11 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02933; Tue, 14 Feb 95 12:35:15 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HN1FWCV7MO0081IH@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07814; Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:35:03 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950214153118.320; 14 Feb 95 15:33:37 +0500 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:29:37 ET From: John T Stein Subject: To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI get DIY_EFI current_archive From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 05:31:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21919; Wed, 15 Feb 95 05:31:06 GMT Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21914; Wed, 15 Feb 95 00:30:58 -0500 Received: by aztec.co.za (Smail3.1.28.1 #17) id m0recIh-000KfYC; Wed, 15 Feb 95 07:29 EET Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 07:29:17 +0200 (SAT) From: Wouter de Waal Subject: Re: your mail To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, John T Stein wrote: > I have tried to get information about the "kit car" list, > but this appears to be a bad address. > Does anyone know if this list has gone out of existance?? Has a new > address?? Same here. I assume it's folded. If there's a new address, and you find it, let me know, please. In other words, "me too" :) Wouter From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 18:23:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25229; Wed, 15 Feb 95 18:23:44 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25224; Wed, 15 Feb 95 13:23:41 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA17432; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:23:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:23:29 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9502151823.AA17432@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Questions.... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI A few questions to y'all... 1) What are the differences between "peak-n-hold" and saturated injectors? Is it just the coil resistance, or is there more. Why does'nt everyone use the same type? 2) I got ahold of the documentation for the 67F687 FI chip. I am having a hard time understanding how one sets up a tooth pattern from the documentation. Has anyone figured out what one has to write to the registers to make it work? For example, how would one set up a 50-tooth wheel with one missing tooth (like the 7-1/4" circular saw blade I have sitting next to me, soon to be minus one tooth)? Thanks - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 20:11:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28346; Wed, 15 Feb 95 20:11:10 GMT Received: from clarion.cec.wustl.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28341; Wed, 15 Feb 95 15:11:05 -0500 Received: by clarion.cec.wustl.edu (5.0/ECL-A1.27) id AA16389; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 14:10:57 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 14:10:55 -0600 (CST) From: Matt Ettus X-Sender: mne1@clarion To: DIY_EFI Subject: Injector selection In-Reply-To: <9502151823.AA17432@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1046 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi. I am in the process of injector selection for our FSAE car Basically we have a honda CBR 600 engine with an air restrictor It is 4 cylinders, and will never make more than 90 HP It will run at up to 12,500 RPM For my calculations, I guessed at 25% efficiency (better to guess low). Using those figures, I come up with 13.6 lb/hr (gasoline) Since we dont want to run at 100% duty cycle, we would need the next larger size, right? That would be 16 lb/hr. Basically our choices are 13, 16, 19, or 21 lb/hr. The system is non-sequential. Thanks very much for all of your help ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matt Ettus mne1@cec.wustl.edu - - 6515 Wydown Box 3451 - - St. Louis, MO 63105 - - (314) 935-2602 Wash U Formula SAE Team Leader - - TKE Rush Chairman - ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 20:58:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28724; Wed, 15 Feb 95 20:58:25 GMT Received: from esavax.esa.lanl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28719; Wed, 15 Feb 95 15:58:20 -0500 Received: from [128.165.196.71] by 128.165.196.71 with SMTP; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:58:16 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: rdabney@esa.lanl.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:00:21 -0700 To: DIY_EFI From: rdabney@lanl.gov (Richard N Dabney) Subject: Re: Questions.... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >A few questions to y'all... > >1) What are the differences between "peak-n-hold" and >saturated injectors? Is it just the coil resistance, >or is there more. Why does'nt everyone use the same >type? The voltage it takes to pull in an injector is greater than the voltage it takes to hold it on. A higher voltage limits the on/off frequency of the injector because of the back-emf generated by the "saturated", then collapsing flux field when the injector is turned off. So if a higher pull-in voltage (peak) is used, then a lower voltage to hold it, the back-emf is less and the injector can be operated at a higher frequency. The reason most don't use them is cost. ************================================************ Richard Neill Dabney Controls Engineer GM/DOE Fuel Cell Project Los Alamos National Laboratory TA-46,WA-128, MS/J-588 Los Alamos, NM 87545 (505)-667-6086 Fax (505) 665-6173 From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 21:27:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28850; Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:27:38 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28845; Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:27:35 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <44832-1>; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:29:29 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08127; Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:22:52 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma008124; Wed Feb 15 16:22:51 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28604; Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:13:33 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA26983; Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:27:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:27:20 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9502152127.AA26983@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Injector selection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > For my calculations, I guessed at 25% efficiency (better to guess low). > Using those figures, I come up with 13.6 lb/hr (gasoline) What formula are you using to get lb/hr from max HP? (I'll need to do the same calculation shortly.) Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 21:57:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28961; Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:57:31 GMT Received: from clarion.cec.wustl.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28956; Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:57:28 -0500 Received: by clarion.cec.wustl.edu (5.0/ECL-A1.27) id AA23904; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:57:19 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:57:18 -0600 (CST) From: Matt Ettus X-Sender: mne1@clarion To: Richard N Dabney Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Questions.... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1649 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Can plain old saturated type injectors run at 13,000 rpm? That is the only type available ion the size we need. On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Richard N Dabney wrote: > >A few questions to y'all... > > > >1) What are the differences between "peak-n-hold" and > >saturated injectors? Is it just the coil resistance, > >or is there more. Why does'nt everyone use the same > >type? > > The voltage it takes to pull in an injector is greater than the voltage it > takes to hold it on. A higher voltage limits the on/off frequency of the > injector because of the back-emf generated by the "saturated", then > collapsing flux field when the injector is turned off. So if a higher > pull-in voltage (peak) is used, then a lower voltage to hold it, the > back-emf is less and the injector can be operated at a higher frequency. > The reason most don't use them is cost. > > > > > > ************================================************ > Richard Neill Dabney > Controls Engineer > GM/DOE Fuel Cell Project Los Alamos National Laboratory > TA-46,WA-128, MS/J-588 Los Alamos, NM 87545 > (505)-667-6086 Fax (505) 665-6173 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matt Ettus mne1@cec.wustl.edu - - 6515 Wydown Box 3451 - - St. Louis, MO 63105 - - (314) 935-2602 Wash U Formula SAE Team Leader - - TKE Rush Chairman - ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 22:20:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29013; Wed, 15 Feb 95 22:20:11 GMT Received: from clarion.cec.wustl.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29008; Wed, 15 Feb 95 17:20:08 -0500 Received: by clarion.cec.wustl.edu (5.0/ECL-A1.27) id AA25717; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:19:53 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:19:52 -0600 (CST) From: Matt Ettus X-Sender: mne1@clarion To: "Michael F. Sargent" Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Injector selection In-Reply-To: <9502152127.AA26983@ivan.gallium.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1294 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Michael F. Sargent wrote: > > For my calculations, I guessed at 25% efficiency (better to guess low). > > Using those figures, I come up with 13.6 lb/hr (gasoline) > > What formula are you using to get lb/hr from max HP? (I'll need to do the > same calculation shortly.) > Mike > +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | > | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ lb/hr = HP ---------------------------- Eff * Cyls * Q (btu/lb) * K Where Q is lower heating value of gasoline (19000 btu/lb) and K is conversion from btu to hp-hr > ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matt Ettus mne1@cec.wustl.edu - - 6515 Wydown Box 3451 - - St. Louis, MO 63105 - - (314) 935-2602 Wash U Formula SAE Team Leader - - TKE Rush Chairman - ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 23:24:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29209; Wed, 15 Feb 95 23:24:20 GMT Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29204; Wed, 15 Feb 95 18:24:17 -0500 Received: from oak.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA18352; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 18:26:39 -0500 Received: by oak.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA21649; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 18:26:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 18:26:00 -0500 (EST) From: Bob Valentine To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Questions.... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Richard N Dabney wrote: > >1) What are the differences between "peak-n-hold" and > >saturated injectors? Is it just the coil resistance, > The voltage it takes to pull in an injector is greater than the voltage > it takes to hold it on. A higher voltage limits the on/off frequency of > the injector because of the back-emf generated by the "saturated", I was under the impression that it was current that was dealt with when driving injectors. The description of how Cherry Semi's CS-452 is that "when the current reaches a pre-set level, the driver reduces current by a 4:1 ratio and operates as a constant current source. This holds the injector open and reduces system power dissipation" I'm still on a learning curve here, so correct me if I'm wrong. --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@liii.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 15 23:53:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29244; Wed, 15 Feb 95 23:53:07 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29239; Wed, 15 Feb 95 18:53:04 -0500 Message-Id: <9502152353.AA29239@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA16831; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:53:03 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Questions.... To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:53:03 MST In-Reply-To: ; from "Matt Ettus" at Feb 15, 95 3:57 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Can plain old saturated type injectors run at 13,000 rpm? > That is the only type available ion the size we need. Yea, but it's pushing it. You'll probably have to only fire once per intake stroke (the 'wasted squirt' system uses up too much injection time with the opening and closing events). You have about 8.5 ms of time to inject, and a saturated system needs around 2.5 ms of opening and closing time. I give around a ms of 'slack' in the calculations. A peak-hold reduces the time down to about 1ms, which is much more comfortable. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 00:16:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29344; Thu, 16 Feb 95 00:16:03 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29339; Wed, 15 Feb 95 19:15:57 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA14311 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:15:51 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199502160015.AA14311@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Injector selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:15:50 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Matt Ettus" at Feb 15, 95 02:10:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2583 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all, Matt writes .. > > > Hi. I am in the process of injector selection for our FSAE car > > Basically we have a honda CBR 600 engine with an air restrictor > It is 4 cylinders, and will never make more than 90 HP > It will run at up to 12,500 RPM > > For my calculations, I guessed at 25% efficiency (better to guess low). > Using those figures, I come up with 13.6 lb/hr (gasoline) > > Since we dont want to run at 100% duty cycle, we would need the next > larger size, right? That would be 16 lb/hr. > Basically our choices are 13, 16, 19, or 21 lb/hr. The system is > non-sequential. > Matt, the flow rate of an injector is for a given fuel pressure. It is straight forward to buy regulators which operate at different pressures and adjustable units are readily available. I originally used a 220 kPa Bosch regulator but later found a 250 kPa Bosch unit to replace it. I also have a 300 kPa regulator for when I modify the engine further and require more fuel flow. One of our customers uses a 500 kPa regulator in their racing application. Without changing my injectors (which normally cost around Aus$200 each here new) I can increase the maximum fuel flow rate very easily when required. To maintain resolution it's important to not oversize the injector/pressure regulator combination. For applications where there is a very large dynamic fuelling range (eg turbo and rotary applications) we use extra injectors which only get turned on when the load is reasonably high. When injectors are operated close to the point of injector cutoff during idle, the idle stability can suffer due to very slight injector mismatch and variability. The turnon/off time of an injector is approximately 0.8 to 1.0mS. 13500 rpm -> 4.44 mS per revolution or 8.88 mS per cycle Injecting every cycle is recommended to avoid a fuel flow nonlinearity between injecting at just below 100% and injecting at 100% duty cycle. One of our customers is fitting an injection system to a Honda 6 cyl bike stroked to 1200cc and fitted with a turbo charger. I'll let you all know how it runs later. :-) Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 00:19:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29362; Thu, 16 Feb 95 00:19:42 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29357; Wed, 15 Feb 95 19:19:39 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA14393 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:19:34 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199502160019.AA14393@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Motorola 68f333 To: DIY_EFI (DIY_EFI ) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:19:33 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 672 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi everyone, I was wondering whether anyone has attempted to use a 68f333 micro for an engine management system. Does anyone know of any OEM systems which use this chip (as opposed to the 68f332) ? Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 02:55:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29741; Thu, 16 Feb 95 02:55:46 GMT Received: from eehpx21.cen.uiuc.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29736; Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:55:43 -0500 Received: by eehpx21.cen.uiuc.edu id AA08566 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:52:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199502160252.AA08566@eehpx21.cen.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Motorola 68f333 To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:52:16 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199502160019.AA14393@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Feb 16, 95 11:19:33 am From: Jay Monkman X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 770 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Previously robert dingli babbled: > I was wondering whether anyone has attempted to use a 68f333 micro > for an engine management system. Does anyone know of any OEM systems > which use this chip (as opposed to the 68f332) ? Does the 68333 actually exist? I requested a sample a couple of months ago, and they weren't available then. I remember hearing that Motorola was having reliability problems with the flash memory on it. It's also not listed in their online (or paper) price guide. Motorola's web site is http://freeware.aus.sps.mot.com/index.html -- Jay Monkman The truth knocks on the door and you say "Go away, I'm monkman@uiuc.edu looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling. - from _Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance_ From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 03:14:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29781; Thu, 16 Feb 95 03:14:06 GMT Received: from mailhost.lanl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29776; Wed, 15 Feb 95 22:14:03 -0500 Received: from microsci.rt66.com by mailhost.lanl.gov (8.6.8.1/1.2) id UAA20140; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:14:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:14:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199502160314.UAA20140@mailhost.lanl.gov> X-Sender: rdabney@esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: rdabney@lanl.gov (R. N. Dabney) Subject: Re: Questions.... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Richard N Dabney wrote: > >> >1) What are the differences between "peak-n-hold" and >> >saturated injectors? Is it just the coil resistance, > >> The voltage it takes to pull in an injector is greater than the voltage >> it takes to hold it on. A higher voltage limits the on/off frequency of >> the injector because of the back-emf generated by the "saturated", > > I was under the impression that it was current that was dealt with >when driving injectors. The description of how Cherry Semi's CS-452 is >that "when the current reaches a pre-set level, the driver reduces >current by a 4:1 ratio and operates as a constant current source. This >holds the injector open and reduces system power dissipation" That's true. In order to raise the current to the pull-in level through the fixed coil resistance, the voltage must be raised. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard Neill Dabney GM/DOE Fuel Cell Project MS J588 TA-46 Bldg 16 Rm 7 Los Alamos National Laboratory Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545 505-667-6086, 665-6173 (fax) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 05:34:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00310; Thu, 16 Feb 95 05:34:10 GMT Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00302; Thu, 16 Feb 95 00:34:07 -0500 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA19235 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 23:34:05 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 23:34:05 -0600 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199502160534.XAA19235@eagle.natinst.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: programming the 67f687 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've called the local pioneer distributor and they said that I could get the 67f687 chip for $38 a piece with a minimum order of $100. They also said that SSI was making 15/wk. I don't know what this means in terms of how long it would take to get the chips. I tried to work out an example of programming th 67f687 for a single pulse source (e.g. saw blade or gear with teeth ground off). The example is for a four cylinder engine. The pulse source is a gear with 4N teeth with teeth 0,3,N,N+4,2N,2N+5,3N,3N+6 ground off. I'm assuming that the output of the tooth sensor is being supplied to the crank input of the 67f687. Also assume that the gear rotates once every two crank rotations so there are only 2N pulses generated per 360 degrees. These missing teeth will signal SOP (start of pattern) and EOP (end of pattern). The location of a pattern is determined by counting the number of teeth between two missing teeth. So CWSP00= 360*4/2N and CWTH00= 2N - 1. The first pattern is the teeth from 0 to 3 this implies that PRACH1= 0, PRACL1= 0, PRTN01= 0, PRADD1= 101/2, PATRN1= 2= 3-0-1 (the number of teeth between the two ground off teeth). Similarly the second pattern is the teeth from N to N+4 so PRACH2= (180*4)>>8, PRACL2= (180*4)&0xff, PRTN02= N, PRADD1= 101/2, PATRN2= 3= (N+4)-N-1 and so on for patterns 3 and 4 except PRTN03= 0 and PRTN04= N. PAREG1= 0x17 i.e. 1 missing crank pulse as EOP and I'm not sure if it matters what CRKNUM field is as long as it less than the minimum number of teeth between a pair of patterns (N-7). Perhaps it should be larger than the maximum number of teeth in a pattern (5). PAREG4= 0x14 i.e. SOPTYP= missing crank and EOPTYP= missing crank. PAREG2= 0xc0 i.e. since pattern bit isn't used set it to 0 and TYP is counted type of pattern so CDEDAT doesn't matter. PAREG3= 0x60 i.e. PATBT6= not used, CNTCLK= crank pulse is counted to match patterns. PMREG1= 0x00 i.e resolution of .25 degrees and 1 section of teeth. PMREG3= 2N i.e. 2N pulses per crank rotation. PMREG5= 360*4/2N ?? From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 16 09:24:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00571; Thu, 16 Feb 95 09:24:04 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00566; Thu, 16 Feb 95 04:24:01 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA02583 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 01:23:59 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 1:23:57 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 1:23:57 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950216012357] Content-Identifier: 2415 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502160019.AA14393@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Message-Id: <"2415*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Motorola 68f333 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The 68F333 is essentially a 68332 with 64K of flash memory (a 16K bank and a 48K bank) with an 8 channel-muxed 10 bit A/D converter. I too was really keen to use this chip for robotics work but I couldn't get samples or pricing. The latest poop from a Motorola guy on the 'hc11 list is that Motorola is having trouble with the reliability of the flash memory when implemented in the process used to make the '332. This is why they are also having trouble with the 'hc16 flash variant. Incidentally, the 'F333 was supposedly developed in collaboration with BMW. The end result is that it isn't really that much work to add the flash and the converter to the '332 and it's a whole lot cheaper. Until the new blazer started gobbling up '332s (there's 3 of them in it I've heard), you used to be able to go out and buy these parts without too much sweat. I'm hoping to take some of the experience I've gained building a '332 board for robotics and apply it to an engine computer (with Dale's help!!). So far the processor ('332), memory (64K static), flash, power supply (National simple switcher), A/D (MAX186) and connector (mil style twisty things) seem like good choices to me but I'm undecided about everything else like O2 amps, injector drivers, input protection, etc. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 17 15:18:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11438; Fri, 17 Feb 95 15:18:06 GMT Received: from jeeves.egr.msu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11433; Fri, 17 Feb 95 10:18:03 -0500 Received: from palm (palm.egr.msu.edu) by egr.msu.edu (5.0/1.34) id AA00011; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:18:43 -0500 Received: by palm (5.0/SMI-4.0) id AA13167; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:15:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:15:48 -0500 From: burkdani@egr.msu.edu Message-Id: <9502171515.AA13167@palm> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Injector selection X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 587 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Have you analyzed how much air a 600cc engine gulps at 12,500RPM? Can you flow that much air through an intake restrictor? (based on sea level pressures) What do you think your volumetric efficiency is going to be? Will you really make more power at 12,500 then at 10,000 RPM? With the turbo after the restrictor, you still have to contend with vacuum. Suppose you've got outer space on one end of your 20mm restrictor, and daytona beach on the other. Will there be enough air flow to fill your cylinders 12,500 times per minute? Just a bunch of brainstorming questions. --Dan From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 17 20:48:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13240; Fri, 17 Feb 95 20:48:20 GMT Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 20:48:20 GMT From: owner-diy_efi Message-Id: <9502172048.AA13240@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi-outgoing (Message jsg:464) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 20:30:45 GMT To: owner-diy_efi From: owner-diy_efi Subject: BOUNCE diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu: Admin request Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil Fri Feb 17 15:30:41 1995 Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_E FI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13081; Fri, 17 Feb 95 15:30:41 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA05054 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:40:36 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA04555; Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:32:15 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502172032.AA04555@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Help on improving injector control at high freqs To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2217 Hi I'm new around here and have tried to "catch up" on things by reading the archives but haven't really found answers to questions I have concerning 2 different projects I'm working on. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Right now my question is how I can get more accurate control at high frequencies. I'm using an injector to inject various liquids and gases at high frequencies. It had been necessary to cycle at about 300Hz. I hope to reduce that by an order of magnitude but don't know if that's going to work. The injectors used are (mostly) peak and hold - 1 injector is used in each test the frequecies were 300 Hz - I hope to drop to about 35 Hz the total test time is only about 5 seconds the injector (differential) pressure has been anything from 35psi to 100+psi the control circuit I made is: triggered by a filtered input signal- a sine wave the delay from triggering signal and also the injector duty cycle has been manually controlled using a 4098B the injector activation was with a MOSFET 2N6766 and a 1N5811 diode the usual other parts to adjust and cleanup Activation voltage is about 13V (I tried up to 28) I haven't limited the current to the injector. I felt there was no need due to the very short test times and I thought it may lower the upper frequency limit. Initially I thought that it would be the activation time that limited the frequency/control of the injector but now I'm wondering if I could get more accurate shutoff if I did a peak and hold on the current. In the archives there were refs to a chip that would do the current limitations. Would doing so help injector accuracy at high freqs? Would just limiting the current with a resistor help. (I'd just give it a try but don't have the ability right now. Can someone please suggest a way to get more accurate control of the on-off of the injector? In the long term, the next step would be for the amplitude of the activating sine wave signal to control the injector duty cycle. After that, for active control minimizing the activating sine wave by adjusting both the delay and the duty cycle. For now I need a quick fix on the manual control ciruit. Thanks cat nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 17 22:05:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13784; Fri, 17 Feb 95 22:05:35 GMT From: owner-diy_efi Message-Id: <9502172205.AA13784@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Help on improving injector control at high freqs To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2217 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi I'm new around here and have tried to "catch up" on things by reading the archives but haven't really found answers to questions I have concerning 2 different projects I'm working on. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Right now my question is how I can get more accurate control at high frequencies. I'm using an injector to inject various liquids and gases at high frequencies. It had been necessary to cycle at about 300Hz. I hope to reduce that by an order of magnitude but don't know if that's going to work. The injectors used are (mostly) peak and hold - 1 injector is used in each test the frequecies were 300 Hz - I hope to drop to about 35 Hz the total test time is only about 5 seconds the injector (differential) pressure has been anything from 35psi to 100+psi the control circuit I made is: triggered by a filtered input signal- a sine wave the delay from triggering signal and also the injector duty cycle has been manually controlled using a 4098B the injector activation was with a MOSFET 2N6766 and a 1N5811 diode the usual other parts to adjust and cleanup Activation voltage is about 13V (I tried up to 28) I haven't limited the current to the injector. I felt there was no need due to the very short test times and I thought it may lower the upper frequency limit. Initially I thought that it would be the activation time that limited the frequency/control of the injector but now I'm wondering if I could get more accurate shutoff if I did a peak and hold on the current. In the archives there were refs to a chip that would do the current limitations. Would doing so help injector accuracy at high freqs? Would just limiting the current with a resistor help. (I'd just give it a try but don't have the ability right now. Can someone please suggest a way to get more accurate control of the on-off of the injector? In the long term, the next step would be for the amplitude of the activating sine wave signal to control the injector duty cycle. After that, for active control minimizing the activating sine wave by adjusting both the delay and the duty cycle. For now I need a quick fix on the manual control ciruit. Thanks cat nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi Sat Feb 18 00:05:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14397; Sat, 18 Feb 95 00:05:57 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14392; Fri, 17 Feb 95 19:05:51 -0500 Message-Id: <9502180005.AA14392@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA04968; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 17:05:46 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Help on improving injector control at high freqst To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 17:05:46 MST In-Reply-To: <9502172205.AA13784@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu>; from "owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" at Feb 17, 95 12:32 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Initially I thought that it would be the activation time that limited the > frequency/control of the injector but now I'm wondering if I could get > more accurate shutoff if I did a peak and hold on the current. In the archives Yes. By reducing the current, you control the shutoff time a lot. Also, raising the zener clamp voltage, you can speed the shutoff a lot. Don't exceed the maximum for the driver device, though. See the Motorola data sheets on the chip MC3484. > accurate control of the on-off of the injector? In the long term, the If you can get the correct Motorola chip (there's the 2.4 amp and 4 amp peak current versions. The hold current is 1/4 of that. A resistor may help, but chances are you'd get much better results with the controller chip. If you have a bear of a time getting the chip, National makes a similar chip that controls an external darlington instead of having it on chip. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Sat Feb 18 16:25:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15799; Sat, 18 Feb 95 16:25:16 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15794; Sat, 18 Feb 95 11:25:13 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA12247 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:25:10 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199502181625.AA12247@access4.digex.net> Subject: MC3484S2 Injector Driver To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:25:09 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9502180005.AA14392@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "Dale Ulan" at Feb 17, 95 05:05:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1735 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI After giving up on the distributors, I called Motorola this week to try to get a hold of the MC3484S2 injector driver chip. They told me that the 2 amp version has been discontinued - only the S4 version is still available. Newark normally stocks the S4 version, but is currently on back order. The National LM1949 seems just as hard to obtain and isn't nearly as nice to work with since you need those pesky 0.1 ohm sense resistors and the power darlington. Both companies are sending samples. Unfortunately of course, Motorola is sending the 4 amp version. Motorola was extremely friendly and generous about the phone call, and National acted like I had pulled them away from playing Solitaire. Am I correct in assuming that the MC3483S4 is completely useless with the 2.4 ohm injectors? What is the best (easiest) way to drive these injectors? I'm mostly interested in less board space and less heat to get rid of inside my controller box. I've also been assuming that the old Bosch injectors that used to run in series with a 6.5 ohm speed-up and current limit resistor are the same ones used with these 'peak and hold' circuits. I've based that on the coil resistance of about 2.4 ohms. I have also seem some Bosch injectors from a Chevy V8 that had a 16 ohm coil. Are these intended to be driven by full battery voltage? Did GM use this approach to save money on the driver circuitry? Someone in this group indicated that rather than looking for new injectors to get more fuel, he would raise the fuel pressure. Can that trick be used successfully in reverse to get less fuel from a too-big injector? Below some magic point, wouldn't that foul up the spray pattern? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Sun Feb 19 17:46:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19392; Sun, 19 Feb 95 17:46:43 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA19387; Sun, 19 Feb 95 12:46:40 -0500 Message-Id: <9502191746.AA19387@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA19208; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 10:46:38 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: MC3484S2 Injector Driver To: DIY_EFI Date: Sun, 19 Feb 95 10:46:38 MST In-Reply-To: <199502181625.AA12247@access4.digex.net>; from "Bill Lewis" at Feb 18, 95 11:25 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Both companies are sending samples. Unfortunately of course, Motorola is > sending the 4 amp version. Motorola was extremely friendly and generous > about the phone call, and National acted like I had pulled them away from > playing Solitaire. Sounds about right. I guess only small numbers of people were using the 2.4 amp version. Probably didn't get the attention of the car manufacturers. > > Am I correct in assuming that the MC3483S4 is completely useless with the > 2.4 ohm injectors? The S4 is normally used to drive large injectors, such as the Servojet natural gas injectors, or throttle-body injectors. It'll work if you parallel two injectors, like some car manufacturers do. > > used with these 'peak and hold' circuits. I've based that on the coil Yup. It's just a bit slower when you don't use a peak+hold driver, that's all. > I have also seem some Bosch injectors from a Chevy V8 that had a 16 ohm coil. > Are these intended to be driven by full battery voltage? Did GM use this > approach to save money on the driver circuitry? Yes, and probably. They used power MOSFETs and a clamp zener across them. > > used successfully in reverse to get less fuel from a too-big injector? To a point..., but as you said already... > Below some magic point, wouldn't that foul up the spray pattern? Yes -Dale From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 20 18:45:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00814; Mon, 20 Feb 95 18:45:10 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00809; Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:45:07 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22613 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:56:23 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA05096; Mon, 20 Feb 95 09:47:31 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502201747.AA05096@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Re: MC3484S2 Injector Driver To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:47:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199502181625.AA12247@access4.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Feb 18, 95 11:25:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 703 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Someone in this group indicated that rather than looking for new injectors > to get more fuel, he would raise the fuel pressure. Can that trick be > used successfully in reverse to get less fuel from a too-big injector? > Below some magic point, wouldn't that foul up the spray pattern? > Yes. My experiments have shown that the spray pattern is pressure dependent. At least for the injectors and patterns I used. I got the injectors from Echlin's research branch and they varied in both flow rates and spray pattern. I wasn't interest in "pencil". Only medium to wide cone patterns. Externally they appeared to be "pintle" type but the one I cut open had a disk in it. > .../Bill > cat From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 20 18:43:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00720; Mon, 20 Feb 95 18:43:42 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00715; Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:43:39 -0500 Message-Id: <9502201843.AA00715@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: [EFI68k] schematics now available Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:43:39 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- For your amusement, the schematic, wire list, and defining gal equations are now available on this server in the files: 68hc000-1.00.ps (EXT_SEL should be !EXT_SEL) 68hc000-1.00.wrl 68hc000-1.00.gal I don't have time to writeup what has been done, but here are a few notes to keep in mind: This is a general purpose single board computer and requires a companion board to do EFI. An 67F687 for example. While a dedicated 68332 based EFI system would clearly use fewer components, there are still some advantages to using a 67F687 in conjunction with a generalized CPU board. I believe the 67F687 will offer better angular accuracy, simpler position encoder interface, and more flexibility. For instance, if some time in the future it is deemed that more computational power for advanced mixture control is needed, another generalized CPU board could be configured to work with the existing 67F687 board. A 68332 could not be adapted. That's not to say that we should ignore the 68332 solution, but rather think more carefully on the direction in which this should go (IMHO). John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 21 17:00:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05339; Tue, 21 Feb 95 17:00:18 GMT Received: from mercury.uah.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05334; Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:00:14 -0500 Received: from rigelras.uah.ualberta.ca by mercury.uah.ualberta.ca (5.4.2/200.1.1.4) id AA23197; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:56:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:56:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: agc@mercury.uah.ualberta.ca (Andrei Chichak) Subject: Re: programming the 67f687 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I've called the local pioneer distributor and they said that I could get >the 67f687 chip for $38 a piece with a minimum order of $100. They also >said that SSI was making 15/wk. I don't know what this means in terms of >how long it would take to get the chips. > If you get the urge to order (group order) put me in for one, I'll send you a money order or ???. Andrei -- Andrei Chichak | Information Systems agc@mercury.uah.ualberta.ca | University of Alberta Hospitals (403) 492 - 4431 (work) | 8440 112 Street Edmonton, Alberta (403) 492 - 3090 (fax) | CANADA T6G 2B7 http://cooper-s.uah.ualberta.ca From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 22 19:31:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10441; Wed, 22 Feb 95 19:31:26 GMT Message-Id: <9502221931.AA10441@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:19:18 +0200 (EET) From: George Theologitis To: DIY_EFI Subject: Help on eproms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Looking my car program with an eprom programmer, I want to know how can I change pulses injectors timing, ignition timing and rev limiter. I'm working on Weber EFi (MC68HCP 11E1VFN) and on Motronic with INTEL 80. Any help acceptable. If anyone knows any site in the net, which can help me, please tell me. email adress georget@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr or greg@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr From owner-diy_efi Wed Feb 22 20:42:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10944; Wed, 22 Feb 95 20:42:02 GMT Received: from tomcat.al.noaa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10926; Wed, 22 Feb 95 15:41:58 -0500 Received: from aztec.al.noaa.gov by tomcat.al.noaa.gov with SMTP id AA28441 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:41:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199502222041.AA28441@tomcat.al.noaa.gov> Date: 22 Feb 1995 13:43:26 -0700 From: "Ciciora Steve" Subject: Free CPU Boards To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've got some left over boards collecting dust that would be more valuable if they had some electrons flowing through them... They came from some sort of NBI network terminal that I bought for the memory boards. Took a blow torch to the RAM, pulled them out and stuck them into an EMS board. They all worked with a little bit of pin straighting! 1) 6803 8 bit CPU, 1k ram, 2732 socketed eprom. Ran the disk drive, printer, 'user I/O'. About 80 or so soldered TTL chips. Not sure what this would be good for. 2) sockeded MC68008L8 w/ sockeded 2764, 7201 (dual serial chip?) and 18 MCM6665AP20 Ram chips (socketed). Plus 2 25 pin serial connectors, and about 70 soldered TTL Chips. 3) Socketed 68010L8 CPU, (2) socketed 2732 Eproms, some unknown RAM chips, and a bunch of misc. TTL chips. 4) I've got two of these boards. 80186 w/ two 27128s, (16) 4164 rams, and a 82586 (some network chip?) all socketed. Plus a bunch of TTL stuff. 5) Video Controller board. 6845, (16) 4164, a custom PLCC chip, and a bunch of TTL chips soldered. Not sure what good it would be. All of the above board usually have one or more other misc chips socketed, for what ever it's worth. I still have the back plane these were pulled out of, and the Power Supply, so if interested I might be able to figure out what voltage goes on what pins. Mabe you can ignore most of the board, reprogram the eproms, and mabe you will have a CPU card. Otherwise a few of the chips might be usefull for wirewrapping your own board. The deal: if interested, you email me directly telling me what you might want, I postal mail it to you, when you find out how much I spent on postage, you send me back a check for that amount. This stuff will go to the first person who convinces me that they might actually use this. If it is just going to collect dust at your house, I'll save me the trip to the post office. - Steven Ciciora sciciora@al.noaa.gov From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 00:29:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11906; Thu, 23 Feb 95 00:29:04 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11901; Wed, 22 Feb 95 19:28:40 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA12133 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:28:30 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199502230028.AA12133@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Intercoolers.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:28:29 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 835 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, A few questions about intercoolers on turbo engines. i/ What is better at removing heat from the intake air: Air-Air or Air-Water? ii/ Where do Air-Water intercoolers get the water supply from? The engine cooling system or a totally seperate system (I was thinking of putting a container in the boot/trunk and filling it with ice water to feed the intercooler). iii/If you were to run fuel injection with LPG, would the cooling effect from the LPG expanding as it comes out of the injector be sufficient to not require an intercooler? The application is to turbocharge a 13B rotary in a Mazda 1300 (~=R100). The main problem is space constraints (ie an air-air intercooler would be difficult to fit). Sorry it's not quite 'EFI' traffic, but it's kind of related Thanks, Craig. pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 01:51:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12152; Thu, 23 Feb 95 01:51:55 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12147; Wed, 22 Feb 95 20:51:51 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA09191 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:02:45 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07018; Wed, 22 Feb 95 17:53:27 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502230153.AA07018@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Intercoolers.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:53:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199502230028.AA12133@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> from "Craig Pugsley" at Feb 23, 95 11:28:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 532 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > From: Craig Pugsley > iii/If you were to run fuel injection with LPG, would the > cooling effect from the LPG expanding as it comes out of > the injector be sufficient to not require an intercooler? I've been wondering about using liquid LPG with EFI for awhile now. I haven't found any injectors designed specifically for using it in liquid form. Does anyone know of a manufacture that markets any designed for port injection with liquid LPG? > > Craig. > pugsley@trl.oz.au Regards; cat From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 02:38:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12256; Thu, 23 Feb 95 02:38:26 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12251; Wed, 22 Feb 95 21:38:23 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rhTQ6-000D30C; Wed, 22 Feb 95 20:36 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Intercoolers.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:36:45 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199502230028.AA12133@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> from "Craig Pugsley" at Feb 23, 95 11:28:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1856 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Craig Pugsley writes: > > A few questions about intercoolers on turbo engines. > > i/ What is better at removing heat from the intake air: > Air-Air or Air-Water? Depends on the application. For the same surface area, air-air will be more effective, assuming you are cooling to ambient air. But you can't always fit a huge air-air where it needs to be AND get adequate airflow. > ii/ Where do Air-Water intercoolers get the water supply from? > The engine cooling system or a totally seperate system Totally seperate. On mine I had on radiator mounted inside the front bumper, and another mounted on the trailer hitch receiver (this was on a truck), with two electric pumps and 50ft of hose. Took about two hours to bleed the system. > (I was thinking of putting a container in the boot/trunk > and filling it with ice water to feed the intercooler). Yes, you can do that, and it works *VERY* well. Gale Banks has done it quite a few times at Bonneville, even on normally aspirated vehicles! He uses a large icechest full of ice and water. > iii/If you were to run fuel injection with LPG, would the > cooling effect from the LPG expanding as it comes out of > the injector be sufficient to not require an intercooler? I am too lazy to dig out my old thermos book and calculate exact numbers, but I don't think it would be that significant. > The application is to turbocharge a 13B rotary in a Mazda > 1300 (~=R100). The main problem is space constraints (ie an > air-air intercooler would be difficult to fit). Air-icewater sounds good to me :) -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 15:02:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13093; Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:02:16 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13088; Thu, 23 Feb 95 10:02:12 -0500 Received: from pm1_16.magicnet.net (pm1_16.magicnet.net [204.96.116.66]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA07578 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:10:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231510.KAA07578@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:49:45 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Why am I here? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI From the digest I received, it was obviously de rigeur to introduce oneself to the list when joining. I expect that practice has ceased now, but I will do it because I have unusual reasons for joining this list. I am Peter Wales, President and owner of Superchips Inc in Florida and Superchips Ltd in England. I have been modifying and building EFI systems since 1983 when I started by reprogramming the boost limit out of a Group N Mitsubishi Starion. Group N is European showroom stock. The car won the series for the next 3 years and I was king of the hill. Then arrived the Ford Cosworth Sierra and my business took off. Now I employ 25 people and have dealers all over the world selling Superchips. Now to the 3 reasons for joining this group. 1) To offer whatever help and experience I can to get problems solved. I enjoy solving problems. 2) To get jobs done by you guys, which my engineers haven't the time for or the market is too small to justify. More later. 3) To seek out potential Superchips engineers. Since I arrived in America 3 years ago I have had great difficulty in employing engineers who are good enough! The problem has been that Americans don't mess with their cars as much as English people, and so it is rare to find an electronics engineer who has any idea of what goes on under the hood. I think this is because the EPA have made it very difficult to work on a car without using illegal parts or expensive parts and so people are discouraged from doing it. In England, you can take off the catalytic converter from your new car without problem. Carburettor jets are easily obtainable and tuning an engine is easy. Here I have no problem in finding engineers who can design cruise missile guidance systems, but they have never opened the hood of their cars! So I figured people at university subscribing to this group would at least have a start in the field and if they were looking for a job in sunny Florida, we could come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement. The jobs I have in mind are the type of small task which are simply time consuming and of low sales potential, but of interest to engineers because they solve problems and don't take very long to do. I figured a student who could find some time to complete one of these tasks might want to earn some money by doing it. The one I have in mind at the moment is for a well known car tuner who turbocharges vehicles and has a problem with one of them. The problem is that the injectors never go fully open and so he is losing some potential power by being limited on the fuel delivery abilities of the system. So he has aked for a solution. It is to hook up a pressure sensor into the system and connect the new box to the injectors. When the boost pressure rises, the injectors are held open a little longer depending upon the pressure until at 7 PSI, they are open continuously. It needs a PIC, some filtering and a driver. Easy job, but it will take time to do and the customer wants them 5 at a time to a maximum of 50 a year. Interested? Talk to me. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 15:16:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13122; Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:16:10 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13117; Thu, 23 Feb 95 10:16:07 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28318; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:16:04 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02039; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:16:02 -0600 Message-Id: <9502231516.AA02039@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Intercoolers.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:28:29 +1100." <199502230028.AA12133@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 09:15:56 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Hi there, > > A few questions about intercoolers on turbo engines. > > i/ What is better at removing heat from the intake air: > Air-Air or Air-Water? > ii/ Where do Air-Water intercoolers get the water supply from? > The engine cooling system or a totally seperate system > (I was thinking of putting a container in the boot/trunk > and filling it with ice water to feed the intercooler). The '91-92-93 Syclone/Typhoon have a air/water system made by Garrett. It consists of a small heat exchanger under the bumper, a RV kitchen water pump, and a custom aluminum ntercooler/fluid reservoir. The system works pretty well until the system gets heat-soaked; the trick is to not let it get there. A fan on the heat exchanger works somewhat, and there is an auxillary heat exchanger on the market that claims to hold the output air temp to within 10 degrees above ambient at all times. I use ice at the drags a lot, but not _in_ the intercooler. I take a bag and set it on the intercooler housing between runs, and everything gets nice and cold. I've heard of some guys using the exact setup you mention (beer cooler full of ice in the pickup box) with a lot of success. Gale Banks used the ice-cooler system on the normally aspirated truck that broke the B Production land speed record at Bonneville. > iii/If you were to run fuel injection with LPG, would the > cooling effect from the LPG expanding as it comes out of > the injector be sufficient to not require an intercooler? The cooling of the LPG helps some, not to mention the octane. The HP book _Turbocharging_ (MacInnes) has a whole chapter on LPG and turbocharging. It's a good book to own, albeit a little outdated. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 16:33:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13579; Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:33:59 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13574; Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:33:55 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA29260 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:33:53 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 8:33:51 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 8:33:51 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950223083351] Content-Identifier: 2467 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502231510.KAA07578@magicnet.magicnet.net> Message-Id: <"2467*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Why am I here? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hey, are you part of the same Superchips that sold that bogus ECU with the bleed valve in it? --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 17:13:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13710; Thu, 23 Feb 95 17:13:04 GMT Received: from wmata.wd.Cubic.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13705; Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:13:00 -0500 Received: from wmata.wd.cubic.com by wmata.wd.cubic.com; Thu, 23 Feb 95 09:14 PST Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:14:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Martin X-Sender: wwm@wmata To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Intercoolers.. In-Reply-To: <199502230028.AA12133@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 1137 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Craig Pugsley wrote: > > A few questions about intercoolers on turbo engines. > > i/ What is better at removing heat from the intake air: > Air-Air or Air-Water? > iii/If you were to run fuel injection with LPG, would the > cooling effect from the LPG expanding as it comes out of > the injector be sufficient to not require an intercooler? > > Several years ago I looked into an LPG injection scheme, and it seems that one of the biggest problems is the injectors will "freeze up". Its not the propane, its the moisture in the air condensing out at the tip of the injector. There is quite a big cooling effect from the LPG phase change to the gaseous state, as the liquid state begins at about -40 degrees at atmospheric pressure. The solution is to heat the injector body with the engine coolant, to stop it from frosting the nozzle shut. I don't know if you can deliver the neccessary heat with just hot air from a turbo outlet, but it certainly would help. If you decide to try this, please post the results...I couldn't afford to play with it at the time the idea arose! Bill Martin From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 20:41:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14303; Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:41:32 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14298; Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:41:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_09.magicnet.net (pm1_09.magicnet.net [204.96.116.59]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12675 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:50:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199502232050.PAA12675@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:29:00 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: JOBS AND jobs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI My posting has already created some interest, and it's getting confused already! If you want to do a project could you please reply with the header "project" and if you are interested in future employment, please put "job" in the header. I am going to post more info on both topics in separate postings to start the split Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 21:12:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14472; Thu, 23 Feb 95 21:12:39 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14467; Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:12:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_11.magicnet.net (pm1_11.magicnet.net [204.96.116.61]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA13400 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:21:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199502232121.QAA13400@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:59:59 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: project Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The first project which needs doing concerns the needs of a well known tuner of vehicles. He has fitted a turbo to a Miata and has sold a large number over the years. Now a competitor has advertised higher power outputs and he needs to compete, but being a man of integrity, he won't tell lies. He must have the higher power. The limiting factor is the fuel available through the stock injectors. Changing them is too expensive. The car already has a rising rate regulator which increases fuel according to manifold pressure times a factor, but it isn't enough. So, the solution I am arriving at is that we need a pressure sensor to detect an on boost situation. Nothing, but nothing must change off boost. Once we have detected boost, we need to increase fuelling according to boost pressure. This can be a simple multiplier of boost pressure volts and a "mixture" pot. If the trailing edge of the injector pulse is used to trigger the start of the enrichment pulse, the system will never run leaner than stock. The pulse needs to start within a few hundred microseconds to stop the injectors closing and reopening. The stock system runs a maximum duty cycle of 65% at the moment so there is a potential 30% increase in fuelling available. The injectors are fired 2 at a time so we need 2 drivers. The existing system needs to be interfered with as little as possible and putting snubber diodes across the injectors to kill the back emf is not allowed. This alters the way the injectors fire and upsets the fuelling. Good input filtering and high voltage drivers are needed for the output, but the final component specification is some time away yet. We have a 12v source, terrible environment and it must have a watchdog system which works. There is a second aspect to the problem, and that is of boost retard. This would be a very desireable feature if attainable, but as the system is not reprogrammable, it will not be easy. So, I need ideas, outlines and a price for doing the development. If you can make these items, then I need a unit price in 10 off lots. There is however, the potential of 3000 per year and that starts to get more interesting. Talk to me guys Peter From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 21:40:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14545; Thu, 23 Feb 95 21:40:09 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14538; Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:40:06 -0500 Received: from pm1_15.magicnet.net (pm1_15.magicnet.net [204.96.116.65]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14143 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:48:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199502232148.QAA14143@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:27:33 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: job Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Superchips Inc is located in sunny Florida (75 today and blue skies) in a suburb of Orlando. Mickey mouse and Magic Basketball. We are 30 minutes from the attractions and 30 minutes from Daytona Beach. Thats the good news. The bad news is that you will be too busy working to spend any time at these places :) We have 5000 sq ft working space and there are 9 people working here now. We have our own in house chassis dyno with computer link, and a 4 gas analyser. Our main products are reprogrammed chips for vehicles and we have the largest range of chips in the world. We can reprogramm EEC4/5 and the 94 GM system with flash eprom. Our next big project is going to be OBDII. Meanwhile, I need another top flight engineer. I don't expect to find someone with experience although that would be good. What I need is someone with fire. Someone who will get the job done regardless and not give up at the first hurdle. I have employed 10 people in the last 24 months and fired them all. Fortunately I have had a good engineer from England who has kept us going but he has now returned to the land of warm beer and I have only his protege who is good but not as good. Now I need another engineer and I want to get it right. The person who gets the job will virtually run his own job, because no one will sit behind him and tell him what to do. A job will be given to him and he will be left to get on with it. The jobs vary from day to day but one thing they all include is telephone support. We need someone who can talk on the phone to people who ask the same questions over and over. What am I offerring in return? Good question. Salary will depend upon ability and profits. I give most of the profits back to the people who earn them. That way they give them to the tax man and not me. Everyone feels better that way. I expect the starting salary to be $30,000 or so, although I am prepared to change that if I have to. If you're not earning $40,000 within 12 months then you are doing it wrong. And so it goes on. the more you earn, the more I can pay. 2 weeks vacation plus statutory days, sick pay and medical/dental insurance etc What else can you need? If you are interested in this post, mail me a resume or fax it to (407) 260 9106 I am not in a hurry, so get it right. I am always looking for another engineer, to add to my collection, not to replace one I already have. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 22:40:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14749; Thu, 23 Feb 95 22:40:47 GMT Received: from holodeck.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14744; Thu, 23 Feb 95 17:40:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9502232240.AA14744@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from mcbill.async.vt.edu by holodeck.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (8.6.10/16.2) id RAA18727; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:42:00 -0500 X-Sender: mcbill@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:41:28 +0500 To: DIY_EFI From: mcbill@vt.edu (Garrett McWilliams) Subject: Re: JOBS AND jobs X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >My posting has already created some interest, and it's getting confused already! >If you want to do a project could you please reply with the header "project" >and if you are interested in future employment, please put "job" in the header. > >I am going to post more info on both topics in separate postings to start >the split > >Peter Wales > How about "asshole" in the header. From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 23:05:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15053; Thu, 23 Feb 95 23:05:24 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15048; Thu, 23 Feb 95 18:05:17 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id PAA09048 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:04:55 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:04:51 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:04:51 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950223150451] Content-Identifier: 2469 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9502232240.AA14744@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: <"2469*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: JOBS AND jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > How about "asshole" in the header. You forgot cheap :-). -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Thu Feb 23 23:58:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15317; Thu, 23 Feb 95 23:58:18 GMT Received: from [199.0.8.64] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15312; Thu, 23 Feb 95 18:58:15 -0500 Received: (from cmyer@localhost) by cyberspace.cyberauto.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA11589 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:42:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:42:40 -0500 From: Chris Myer Message-Id: <199502232342.SAA11589@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Why am I here? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Regarding Rod's query whether Mr. Wales is the infamous seller of bogus ECU's: He's one in the same, I'm afraid. If anyone doubts this I will forward them the email correspondence where he himself admits and even attempts to justify his actions. As Captain Hook of Peter Pan fame might say, "Very poor form, Mr. Wales." Sorry to waste our bandwidth with this unfortunate announcement, but I feel the members of this highly esteemed group ought to be aware with whom they associate in cyberspace. Chris From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 00:38:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15413; Fri, 24 Feb 95 00:38:05 GMT Received: from [199.0.8.64] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15408; Thu, 23 Feb 95 19:38:03 -0500 Received: (from cmyer@localhost) by cyberspace.cyberauto.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA11668 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:22:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:22:29 -0500 From: Chris Myer Message-Id: <199502240022.TAA11668@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: JOBS AND jobs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > > How about "asshole" in the header. > > You forgot cheap :-). > > Rod: Interesting email, but I think I missed something. Did Wales send this to you? Chris (Sorry if this email is munged...my terminal is acting up!) From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 01:16:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15506; Fri, 24 Feb 95 01:16:33 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15501; Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:16:30 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id RAA12524 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:16:28 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:16:26 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:16:26 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950223171626] Content-Identifier: 2472 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502232342.SAA11589@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> Message-Id: <"2472*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Why am I here? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Chris, Wasn't it the case that they CLAIMED that they had reprogrammed the stock ECU -- even had their sticker on it or something? But in fact the code was EXCACTLY the same? I wonder how much they charged for that SUPERCHIP. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 01:19:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15524; Fri, 24 Feb 95 01:19:18 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15519; Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:19:10 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA08781 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:19:00 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199502240119.AA08781@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Why am I here? To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:18:59 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502232342.SAA11589@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> from "Chris Myer" at Feb 23, 95 06:42:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 335 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Woooooaoahh boy.. Let's not turn DIY_EFI into a flaming zone (I'll leave that to the fuel hose that pops off and sprays all over the exhaust ;-) By the same token, anyone selling EFI products that don't do what they say sure picked the wrong list to barge in on!! (BTW I hadn't heard of this 'bogus' product till now). $0.02 Craig. From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 01:36:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15566; Fri, 24 Feb 95 01:36:47 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15561; Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:36:43 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id RAA12983 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:36:42 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:36:39 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:36:39 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950223173639] Content-Identifier: 2473 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502240119.AA08781@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Message-Id: <"2473*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Why am I here? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Woooooaoahh boy.. > >Let's not turn DIY_EFI into a flaming zone (I'll leave that to the fuel >hose that pops off and sprays all over the exhaust ;-) I agree. I'm not flaming anybody. I just had this recollection of a rather shady product made by a company with "SUPERCHIP" in the name. And since Peter posted a large amount of information about his company and solicited folks to do work for him I thought it important to determine if it was the same SUPERCHIP or not. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 03:08:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16053; Fri, 24 Feb 95 03:08:37 GMT Received: from bbfm.di.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16048; Thu, 23 Feb 95 22:08:33 -0500 Received: from tune.di.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.9/TD-1.12) with SMTP id TAA14339 for on Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:09:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199502240309.TAA14339@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:09:39 -0800 To: DIY_EFI From: today@di.com (Todd Day) Subject: Re: Superchips Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Wasn't it the case that they CLAIMED that they had reprogrammed the >stock ECU -- even had their sticker on it or something? But in fact >the code was EXCACTLY the same? I wonder how much they charged for >that SUPERCHIP. Yep. That would be the "upgrades" for the Eagle Talon and Dodge Stealth and their siblings. Both are different ECUs, but they didn't do ANYTHING to either of them. Even had the gall to put a sticker on the chip they "reprogrammed". For your 350 dollars, you got that sticker plus a real nice bleeder valve for the wastegate on your turbo. I posted this to the list I run (Talon/Eclipse/Laser). It got reposted all over the net. Somehow, Mr. Wales got a copy of it. He defended himself by saying that he had a money back guarentee and no one had returned their units. That's the sort of shop he runs - profit by others' ignorance, instead of adding real value to the transaction. BTW, I think $30k is awfully low, even for starting college grads with a BS. If he thinks anyone who knows anything about engine computers is gonna be jumping on his weak offer, he's one bit short of a byte. -todd- P.S. He's actually subscribed to my email list. From his recent posts, it's pretty clear that he's knows very little about T/E/Ls other than what he's gleaned from the list. From his posts on this list, he seems to be more of a taker than a giver. I don't mind for profit ventures on my list, as long as the person subscribed seems to contribute to the discussion. Does he do that for us here on DIY? Doesn't look like it to me... At least he doesn't advertise on my list. The second he tries, he's gone... From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 04:24:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16219; Fri, 24 Feb 95 04:24:50 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16214; Thu, 23 Feb 95 23:24:47 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id UAA16091 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:24:40 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:24:38 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:24:38 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950223202438] Content-Identifier: 2476 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502240309.TAA14339@bbfm.di.com> Message-Id: <"2476*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Superchips Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Todd, > Yep. That would be the "upgrades" for the Eagle Talon and Dodge > Stealth and their siblings. Both are different ECUs, but they > didn't do ANYTHING to either of them. Even had the gall to put > a sticker on the chip they "reprogrammed". For your 350 dollars, > you got that sticker plus a real nice bleeder valve for the > wastegate on your turbo. How did you figure this out? Did you actually dump the ROMs and compare and find no difference? > I posted this to the list I run (Talon/Eclipse/Laser). It got reposted > all over the net. Somehow, Mr. Wales got a copy of it. He defended > himself by saying that he had a money back guarentee and no one had > returned their units. That's the sort of shop he runs - profit by > others' ignorance, instead of adding real value to the transaction. So he admitted he did this? Did the advertising state that the unit had been reprogrammed? If so, it sounds like fraud ... I hope you got your money back. > I don't mind for profit ventures on > my list, as long as the person subscribed seems to contribute to the > discussion. Does he do that for us here on DIY? Doesn't look like it to > me... At least he doesn't advertise on my list. The second he tries, he's > gone... This brings up an interesting point. What is the status of the info on this list? I had been assuming that it was more or less public but that it would be unethical to use it for profit. Comments? John? I've got a MC68332 FI design in the works that I was planning on sharing with the list on a non-commericial basis. I'd be more hesitant about sharing it if somebody could take it and profit from it. We don't want to end up being the superchip r & d lab!!!! --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 04:36:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16243; Fri, 24 Feb 95 04:36:00 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16238; Thu, 23 Feb 95 23:35:57 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-127.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 23 Feb 95 22:29:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 22:29:10 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17923.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: THE MARKET Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI It seems funny to hear about shortages of anything, especially engineers who know engines and computers. There are only shortages at the prices/ wages that cheapskates are willing to pay. :-) I agree totally with what Todd wrote: >BTW, I think $30k is awfully low, even for starting college grads >with a BS. If he thinks anyone who knows anything about engine >computers is gonna be jumping on his weak offer, he's one bit short >of a byte. Matt From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 06:33:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16476; Fri, 24 Feb 95 06:33:49 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16470; Fri, 24 Feb 95 01:33:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id TAA23574; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 19:24:40 +1300 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199502240624.TAA23574@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: THE MARKET To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 19:24:40 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <17923.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Feb 23, 95 10:29:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 557 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > It seems funny to hear about shortages of anything, especially engineers > who know engines and computers. There are only shortages at the prices/ > wages that cheapskates are willing to pay. :-) > > I agree totally with what Todd wrote: > >BTW, I think $30k is awfully low, even for starting college grads > >with a BS. If he thinks anyone who knows anything about engine > >computers is gonna be jumping on his weak offer, he's one bit short > >of a byte. > > Matt > > So what would be a reasonable rate for such a person in the US ? Steve. From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 12:22:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16869; Fri, 24 Feb 95 12:22:50 GMT Received: from [199.0.8.64] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16864; Fri, 24 Feb 95 07:22:47 -0500 Received: (from cmyer@localhost) by cyberspace.cyberauto.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id HAA12452 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:07:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:07:07 -0500 From: Chris Myer Message-Id: <199502241207.HAA12452@cyberspace.cyberauto.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Why am I here? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Chris, > > Wasn't it the case that they CLAIMED that they had reprogrammed the > stock ECU -- even had their sticker on it or something? But in fact > the code was EXCACTLY the same? I wonder how much they charged for > that SUPERCHIP. > > --rod. Precisely. I am sure I can dig up the mail that was tossed back and forth on the net on the subject if you're interested. I think the thing that amazed me and pissed me off the most is that, when busted, the guy trys to justify his actions, saying that since the customer was satisfied, he was ok for selling them a $10 valve and unchanged prom for 3 or 400 bucks. Even now, the guy is totally unrepentative! If he'd come out with some sort of statement to the effect that "hey, I screwed up, won't do it again, please forgive me", then I think I'd let it slide and just be wary of him in the future. Until then, don't look to me to just forget it. Remember, computer user's don't have to have long memorys--their computer's handle that for them. And when thousands of people on the 'net are assisting you in your memory, you'll never forget. The lesson is, don't make an idiot of yourself on the net, and if you do, you'd better acknowledge it yourself so that discussion of the matter becomes "old news"! Chris From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 14:05:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17009; Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:05:59 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17004; Fri, 24 Feb 95 09:05:53 -0500 Received: from pm1_02.magicnet.net (pm1_02.magicnet.net [204.96.116.52]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA26479; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:15:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199502241415.JAA26479@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:53:18 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Superchips Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Dear oh Dear oh Dear, I have really stirred up a hornets nest haven't I? Ok, lets try and settle some of the questions. Firstly, to the owner of the list: I have not come here to try and sell anything. That would be a waste of time on a DIY list and I have long since found that trying to sell anything on the net is a complete waste of time, so don't worry about advertisements coming from me. The story concerning the Eagle Talon computer is true. I stated so when it came out and am happy to state it again. I really don't want to get into a flame war over it so I would appreciate it if you could hear the facts, take note, make up your minds about it and let it drop. There are other things more interesting to discuss. The facts are that someone decided to try and copy my software for the Eclipse computer. We had discovered that some computers had Eproms and some didn't but in either case the results were the same. 15 psi on the stock car was the limit (unless you used a boost graphic but thats a different story) and you could get to that limit whether you took out the boost cut or not. So, as we didn't know which computers had the limit and which didn't we got the computer in, either reprogrammed it or not depending upon whether or not it had an EPROM and sent it out with a 7 day "try it" money back warranty. We didn't get any back. The only person who was upset was the guy who found he couldn't copy what we had done, because the computer he borrowed to copy didn't have an EPROM! I'm not going into the ethics of what we did. People are happy to tell me I should not have charged $350 for the conversion but are quite happy that I should charge $350 for a $1 EPROM. So, on to happier things. We do produce correctly developed cchips here and no computers leave here unmodified with claims for anything else, and now I need more engineers. I am getting the message that perhaps the reason I can't get good guys is because I'm not paying enough. Well ok, what do you think is a good starting salary for a graduate with a degree and no experience in the commercial world, and I don't care if he has designed a complete car electronic system, he has no experience in this commercial field and I have to teach him so it will be 3 months before he produces anything useful. Big companies like Ford can afford to make an investment in junior engineers and pay them lots while they learn, but I need results for my money and I can't afford to pay someone loads of money to learn what to do. Tell me what other companies are paying. What do you get to be a number in Fords payroll computer? Finally, the question of me taking designs from the list. Firsly, we don't manufacture engine management systems, and if you ever get into the realms of doing that you'll understand why. So even if someone publishes the design for the very best engine management system in the world here, it's of no use to me. I cannot say that I will not commercialise on ideas I pick up from here. That would be insulting your intelligence, but lets face it, what can you guys give an engine reprogrammer? That's not what this list is about is it? If the questions do crop up, I'm probably more likely to have the answers, and give them to you, than to take them from you. But you're all clever guys and I don't profess to know it all so maybe I can learn something. Finally, I went through all of this on the Merkur list, so I ended up giving one guy a chip to try. With compliments to Neil Swanson, here is part of the report to the rest of that list: "It's amazing what a little box of sand can do for a car. I agree with just about all you say. My car is also more satisfying to drive with the Superchip. I have my chip on the Rapido ECU. I don't know if it matters which one you use. Is Peter Wales out there? Any comments? Rapidos box does start to promise tons of torque, with a really strong surge that soon ends up slamming the Knock sensor and spoiling the fun. I reported the Rapido box felt a little stronger on the bottom but it sure doesn't last. Thatch doesn't full throttle feel great now? Smooth all the way. It feels more comfortable doing it too." I hope I have established my credentials once again. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 17:20:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18744; Fri, 24 Feb 95 17:20:39 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18739; Fri, 24 Feb 95 12:20:34 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA04236; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:20:26 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA03661; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:20:25 -0600 Message-Id: <9502241720.AA03661@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Cc: ron-gregory@ti.com Subject: Re: Superchips In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Feb 95 08:53:18 EST." <199502241415.JAA26479@magicnet.magicnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 11:20:18 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net(Peter Wales) Apologies for prolonging this, but I felt it needed to be said. > I'm not going into > the ethics of what we did. People are happy to tell me I should not have > charged $350 for the conversion but are quite happy that I should charge > $350 for a $1 EPROM. Most people know (at least the folks on this list) that it's not the EPROM you're paying for, but the engineering of the contents. Since you did not alter the contents of the EEPROM, what exactly _was_ the customer paying for? A $10 bleeder valve? OK. Fine. If you can get $350 for a $10 bleeder, have at it- caveat emptor. But recieving an ECM from a customer, slapping a sticker on it that said it was reprogrammed, and sending it back is out- right fraud. There are many things you could have done that would have been orders of magnitude more ethical, but you didn't. You chose the easy, more profitable way, thinking no one will ever know. But you got caught, and now you pay the price of dragging your reputation with you wherever you go. > So, on to happier things. We do produce correctly developed cchips here and > no computers leave here unmodified with claims for anything else, Or so we hope. How can we be sure? > I cannot say that I will not commercialise on ideas I pick up from > here. That would be insulting your intelligence, but lets face it, what can > you guys give an engine reprogrammer? That's not what this list is about is > it? On the contrary, there have been a number of articles posted concerning PROM hacking- interesting and possibly valuable information. I seriously doubt such information will be passed as freely as it was in the past. > If the questions do crop up, I'm probably more likely to have the > answers, and give them to you, than to take them from you. But you're all > clever guys and I don't profess to know it all so maybe I can learn > something. Would you really divulge your info on reprogramming chips for all the world to see? It would earn some points in your favor, but you have a long way to go in order to regain a good reputation. > > I hope I have established my credentials once again. One burnt offering to the Merkur list, and you're right as rain again? Make the Talon/Eclipse guys happy. Then we'll talk. *********************************************************************** Scott D. Bartholomay - Embedded Systems Programming - 777 EDMS Displays Rockwell International, Collins Air Transport Division, Cedar Rapids IA sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com - (319)395-4498 These opinions are not that of Rockwell Intl. or CATD. *********************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 19:12:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19435; Fri, 24 Feb 95 19:12:57 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA19430; Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:12:54 -0500 Received: from pm1_01.magicnet.net (pm1_01.magicnet.net [204.96.116.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA02421; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:22:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199502241922.OAA02421@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:00:18 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: How can I tell Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have 2 more questions to pose to you guys: 1) I have now 25 prospective employees lined up from all over the country. How can I tell which of them is the best. I haven't been able to do it so far so give me the benefit of your good advice and wisdom in matters I have admittedly failed at so far. What sort of test would you give? What questions would you ask and would you do it via E-mail, phone or face to face? If face to face, who is going to pay the interviewees expenses? 2) When I received the digest of the early days of this group, the dicusssions were all about creating an engine management system. This was nearly a year ago. Is it finished? Is there some communally created hardware and software running some engines somewhere? How many of them are there? Peter From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 19:35:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19539; Fri, 24 Feb 95 19:35:18 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA19534; Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:35:14 -0500 Received: from pm1_24.magicnet.net (pm1_24.magicnet.net [204.96.116.74]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA02745; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:44:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199502241944.OAA02745@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:22:37 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Superchips Cc: ron-gregory@ti.com Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >Apologies for prolonging this, but I felt it needed to be said. Dont apologise, I'm getting used to it > >> I'm not going into >> the ethics of what we did. People are happy to tell me I should not have >> charged $350 for the conversion but are quite happy that I should charge >> $350 for a $1 EPROM. > >Most people know (at least the folks on this list) that it's not the EPROM >you're paying for, but the engineering of the contents. Since you did not >alter the contents of the EEPROM, what exactly _was_ the customer paying >for? A $10 bleeder valve? OK. Fine. If you can get $350 for a $10 bleeder, >have at it- caveat emptor. But recieving an ECM from a customer, slapping >a sticker on it that said it was reprogrammed, and sending it back is out- >right fraud. There are many things you could have done that would have been >orders of magnitude more ethical, but you didn't. You chose the easy, more >profitable way, thinking no one will ever know. But you got caught, and >now you pay the price of dragging your reputation with you wherever you go. Here we go again. Double standards. Why is it ok to sell a $1 eprom full of knowledge for $350 and not a kit of parts full of knowledge for $350. If the customers knew how to do it they wouldn't have bought the kit would they. Knowledge is knowledge. They bought 255 HP, paid for it and got it. They didn't complain, only the rip off merchant who tried to copy it complained. It's funny how he comes out a hero, but then that's what you people are about, steal what you can and then bitch if you don't get what you wanted! Please, go ahead and have the last word on that subject because I won't bother replying to any more comments about it. Every time I join a new group I go through the whole process of having holier than thou berks who have never done anything wrong in their entire lives give me a hard time over it. Then I have to prove we do good work and then some dickhead says well you may have made the last lot happy but don't think thats good enough for us, we're different. > >> So, on to happier things. We do produce correctly developed cchips here and >> no computers leave here unmodified with claims for anything else, > >Or so we hope. How can we be sure? You can't. But as youre never going to buy anything from me, it's immaterial isn't it? > >> I cannot say that I will not commercialise on ideas I pick up from >> here. That would be insulting your intelligence, but lets face it, what can >> you guys give an engine reprogrammer? That's not what this list is about is >> it? > >On the contrary, there have been a number of articles posted concerning >PROM hacking- interesting and possibly valuable information. I seriously >doubt such information will be passed as freely as it was in the past. Very negative attitude my boy > >> If the questions do crop up, I'm probably more likely to have the >> answers, and give them to you, than to take them from you. But you're all >> clever guys and I don't profess to know it all so maybe I can learn >> something. > >Would you really divulge your info on reprogramming chips for all the world >to see? It would earn some points in your favor, but you have a long way >to go in order to regain a good reputation. Maybe, but not to get a good reputation. It's shot to hell and I don't care about it anyway:) I am happy to divulge information which I consider easy to get. Fuelling and timing maps are easy to get. Shift points, rev limiters, checksums etc are not so easy to get so I may be reluctant to part with that information. I look at it this way. You guys are not going to buy a chip from me, or probably from anyone else either, you'll make your own, or give up. If I help, I haven't lost a sale, and if you copy it 10 times and sell them to friends, they probably wouldn't have bought from me either. But, if it's something I think my competitors have a hard time finding, I'm not giving it to them on a plate by telling everyone on this list and risking the word getting back to them > >> >> I hope I have established my credentials once again. > >One burnt offering to the Merkur list, and you're right as rain again? >Make the Talon/Eclipse guys happy. Then we'll talk. Oh Shit, see paragraph above > > >*********************************************************************** >Scott D. Bartholomay - Embedded Systems Programming - 777 EDMS Displays >Rockwell International, Collins Air Transport Division, Cedar Rapids IA > sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com - (319)395-4498 > These opinions are not that of Rockwell Intl. or CATD. >*********************************************************************** > > Peter Wales Superchips Inc and proud of it From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 20:31:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20012; Fri, 24 Feb 95 20:31:04 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20007; Fri, 24 Feb 95 15:31:00 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id MAA01028 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:30:57 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:30:55 UTC-0800 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:30:55 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950224123055] Content-Identifier: 2478 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502241922.OAA02421@magicnet.magicnet.net> Message-Id: <"2478*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: How can I tell Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I suggest we make up an exam you can send your prospective employees. Here are a few questions to get things started .. 1. What are the basic input variables used to determine injector pulse width in an electronic fuel injection system? 2. On which production car was the first _electronic_ fuel injection system implemented? How about turbocharging? 3. Which is better: Slick 50 or Duralube? 4. What's the best radar jammer on the market? 6. Is Consumer Reports statistically accurate? 7. Is Zymol worth the cash? Can you really eat it? 8. Is the EPA really going to nail companies like SuperChips? ... come on guys, I know you have a bunch more ... -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Feb 24 22:36:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20315; Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:36:14 GMT Received: from aces1.acenet.auburn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20310; Fri, 24 Feb 95 17:36:11 -0500 Received: from aces6 (aces6.acenet.auburn.edu) by acenet.auburn.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1 aces1 1.0) id AA15749; Fri, 24 Feb 95 16:36:09 CST From: Gregory A. Parmer Received: by aces6 (5.0/SMI-4.1) id AA05211; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:36:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:36:08 -0600 Message-Id: <9502242236.AA05211@aces6> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: How can I tell--Superchips--and Jobs X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 942 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I hope everyone is about done with this crap. I subscribed to learn from the group. What I'm learning now is how easily distracted people can be. PLEASE TAKE THE NONSENSE ELSEWHERE!!!!! ...back to regularly scheduled programming... Wasn't there a discussion about intercoolers and LPG going before the interruption? The LPG vaporizor normally uses water from the radiator to prevent the vaporizor from freezing. It would be possible to route your intercooler water thru the vaporizor, but I'm almost certain you'd still need a secondary radiator to further cool the water in the intercooler system.... ....and then there's the question of whether or not the water will be warm enough for the vaporizor to work properly... $0.02 -greg Greg Parmer INTERNET: gparmer@acenet.auburn.edu Lead Specialist, Network Support VOICE: (205) 844-9660 Alabama Cooperative Extension Service FAX: (205) 844-3501 Auburn University, AL 36849-5646 From owner-diy_efi Sat Feb 25 00:01:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20498; Sat, 25 Feb 95 00:01:36 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20493; Fri, 24 Feb 95 19:01:34 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-144.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 24 Feb 95 17:41:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 17:41:09 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17204.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Venting... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >1) I have now 25 prospective employees lined up from all over the country. >How can I tell which of them is the best. I haven't been able to do it so >far so give me the benefit of your good advice and wisdom in matters I have >admittedly failed at so far. What sort of test would you give? What >questions would you ask and would you do it via E-mail, phone or face to >face? If face to face, who is going to pay the interviewees expenses? Would this include some sort of ethics test? Or maybe the ability to be able to tell the truth from a carefully covered and rationalized lie? And how would you know if they were lying to you? Or would it matter? Are there any absolutes? I'll shut up now. Sorry about the venting. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Sat Feb 25 09:17:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21242; Sat, 25 Feb 95 09:17:02 GMT Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21237; Sat, 25 Feb 95 04:16:59 -0500 Received: from ip-pdx2-15.teleport.com (ip-pdx2-15.teleport.com [204.119.60.15]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA06646 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 01:16:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199502250916.BAA06646@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: gamork@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 01:18:15 -0800 To: DIY_EFI From: gamork@teleport.com (William Driscoll) Subject: Re: Superchips Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >> >>Apologies for prolonging this, but I felt it needed to be said. > >Dont apologise, I'm getting used to it > >> >>> I'm not going into >>> the ethics of what we did. People are happy to tell me I should not have >>> charged $350 for the conversion but are quite happy that I should charge >>> $350 for a $1 EPROM. >> >>Most people know (at least the folks on this list) that it's not the EPROM >>you're paying for, but the engineering of the contents. Since you did not blah blah blah........ Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this list would be a little more productive if we could all simmer down and contain our arguments over ethics and shortcomings in a more one-on-one manner. I'm a realatively new subscriber, and in light of this recent flame session, I'm not sure why I joined in the first place! I'm not condoning what Mr. Wales has done, but at the same time, I'm not going to bannish him. Every corporation ever in business has at some point or other had the misfortune of a scam, cover-up, or mere slander. LIFE GOES ON! Bill out- From owner-diy_efi Sat Feb 25 17:45:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21896; Sat, 25 Feb 95 17:45:17 GMT Received: from info.forthnet.gr by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21889; Sat, 25 Feb 95 12:44:58 -0500 Received: from athena.compulink.forthnet.gr by info.forthnet.gr via FORTHnet with SMTP; id AA10109 (5.65c/FORTHNET-1.1); Sat, 25 Feb 1995 19:43:08 +0200 (EET DST) Organization: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 19:36:48 +0200 (EET) From: George Theologitis To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI get INDEX From owner-diy_efi Sun Feb 26 07:49:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22857; Sun, 26 Feb 95 07:49:37 GMT Received: from delta1.deltanet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA22852; Sun, 26 Feb 95 02:49:34 -0500 Received: from delta1.deltanet.com by deltanet.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA10329; Sat, 25 Feb 95 23:49:17 -0800 Received: by najay (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.6)/1.0um) id AA0079; Sat, 25 Feb 95 23:46:09 -0800 Message-Id: <9502260746.AA0079@najay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 23:40:44 -0800 From: "George Najarian" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Intro - and question X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <50_69_1_793773645> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi! My name is George Najarian, and I am a software engineer for a lan adapter company call Standard Microsystems Corp. This list appears to be a godsend, since I have been exploring ways to replace the EEC-IV in my mustang(s). I am currently trying to obtain info on the new AMD 386EX embedded controller (which should work with all the tools I currently use to write device drivers). Any and all feedback is welcome. The question: I have seen references to the determination of combustiion completeness and detection of detonation by some sort of feedback through the plugs; does anybody have the info on this? Thanks. * George Najarian Team OS/2 * * najay@deltanet.com Team.Net 87 Mustang GT CP (13.9/102) * * ; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 00:51:40 CDT Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:21:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: job To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <101064.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> regardless and not give up at the first hurdle. I have employed 10 -> people in the last 24 months and fired them all. Doesn't say much for either your ability to screen applicants, or job security with Superchips, does it? ======================================================================= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT (Nazareth) XJ900 TURBO at 15psi DoD# 978 xKotFAQ ======================================================================= From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 27 13:36:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24954; Mon, 27 Feb 95 13:36:08 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24949; Mon, 27 Feb 95 08:36:04 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA20409 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:36:02 -0500 Received: from koadpc43.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA19423 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:36:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199502271336.AA19423@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> X-Sender: c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:37:43 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Andrew H. Voss) Subject: Re: Intro - and question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >The question: I have seen references to the determination of combustiion completeness >and detection of detonation by some sort of feedback through the plugs; does anybody have >the info on this? Thanks. > Saab uses this technology currently. It was developed by Mecel in Sweden, who were bought by Delco Electronics. It is accomplished by sensing current through the spark plug after the spark is complete. It can't be simply added to an existing system because the spark burn time is way too long. That's why the Saab units currently use CD ignition. We are developing systems with inductive ignition coils and coil redesign has been a big part of the effort. The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. Andy Voss Advanced Powertrain Systems c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Delco Electronics Corp. (317)451-0415 GM:8-322-0415 "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got." - Unknown From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 27 15:11:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25288; Mon, 27 Feb 95 15:11:07 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25283; Mon, 27 Feb 95 10:11:04 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id HAA25989 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 07:11:02 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 7:11:00 UTC-0800 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 7:11:00 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950227071100] Content-Identifier: 2479 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199502271336.AA19423@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> Message-Id: <"2479*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Intro - and question Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Andy!! Are there any papers on what you can do with the ionic current info? or on how the Mecel system works? I've only seen a little bit on this in the bosch handbooks in relation to spark plug selection. Thanks --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 27 21:55:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26824; Mon, 27 Feb 95 21:55:29 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26819; Mon, 27 Feb 95 16:55:26 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA11682; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 16:55:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 16:55:23 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9502272155.AA11682@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Sizing Injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI There have beeen some questions about determining fuel injector flow sizing. The following is one way to determine size based on knowing the engines volumetric efficiency at peak torque (WOT). This can be obtained from a dyno run, or one can use 75 to 80% for street engine, 90-95% for race motors, and above 100% for turbocharged engines. The following determines the time required to hold the injector open (in milliseconds) per "squirt" event. Using this info should help in determining injector size, and help determine if sequential or batch firing is more suited for an application. To start, one must compute how much air is "sucked" into the engine per completion of a "cycle" (two revolutions for a 4-cycle). This is determined by using the volumetric efficiency and the weight of air at standard pressure and temperature (60 deg F, 29.92" Hg, dry air): W(lbs air) = CID * VE * 4.428 x 10-5 (Lbs/CID) (1) where CID = Cubic Inch Displacement VE = Volumetric Efficiency Now find the pounds of fuel per cylinder at some air/fuel ratio: S(Lbs fuel/cyclinder) = W * (1/cyl) * (1/AF) (2) where cyl = number of cylinders AF = desired air/fuel ratio (like 14.7) Modify S if more than one injector "squirt" per engine cycle (ie. batch injection fires 2 times, sequential fires only once) S = S/(no of squirts) (3) Now find the injector flow in pounds/millisecond: F(lbs/millisecond) = Injector(lbs/hr) * (1/3,600,000) (4) where Injector is the rated static flow Finally, the injector fire time in milliseconds: TIME(ms) = S/F (5) For example, a Chevy 350 with 0.8 VE wanting a AF of 13.0, running true sequential using 30 Lb/hr injectors, works as: W = 350 * 0.8 * 4.428 x 10-5 = 1.2398 x 10-2 S = W * (1/8) * (1/13.0) = 1.1921 x 10-4 F = 30 * (1/3600000) = 8.333 x 10-6 TIME = 1.1921 x 10-4 / 8.333 x 10-6 = 14.3 milliseconds One thing to watch out for is maximum squirt time, which is RPM dependent. If one assumes that the injector can be on for one complete engine revolution (like TDC exhaust to TDC power), one can compute how long the injector is open (ms) 1 rev/minute = 1.666 x 10-5 rev/milliseconds, or 1 minute/rev = 60,000 milliseconds/rev So time(ms) = 60,000/RPM If the Chevy has a maximum RPM of 7000, this represents a time of (60,000/7000) = 8.6 milliseconds per rev. If the injector is on all the time (static, and not a condition), the time for a "cycle" is 2 * 8.6 = 17.2. The number computed above (TIME = 14.3 ms) is very close to the injector being on all the time, so watch out when using the above. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 27 22:33:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26935; Mon, 27 Feb 95 22:33:43 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26930; Mon, 27 Feb 95 17:33:39 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA18873; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 16:33:36 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02269; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 16:33:36 -0600 Message-Id: <9502272233.AA02269@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Feb 95 16:55:23 EST." <9502272155.AA11682@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 16:33:30 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Anybody have a formula to convert lbs/hr to gal/hr? Thanks, Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Mon Feb 27 22:43:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26976; Mon, 27 Feb 95 22:43:39 GMT Received: from tomcat.al.noaa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26964; Mon, 27 Feb 95 17:43:35 -0500 Received: from aztec.al.noaa.gov by tomcat.al.noaa.gov with SMTP id AA07017 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 15:43:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199502272243.AA07017@tomcat.al.noaa.gov> Date: 27 Feb 1995 15:44:21 -0700 From: "Ciciora Steve" Subject: RE: Sizing Injectors To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Thanks for the info! It's facts like these that I like. As some of you may know, John DeAmond (spelling?) tried to publish Performance Engineering Mag., an excellent mag. dedicated to electronics and hotrods. One of the main articles in the 1.5 issues was a series on building a fuel injector flow bench. I've learned a lot about how injectors from this article. Does anyone know what happened to John? I'd like to get a hold of him; mabe he would give someone permission to upload his article somewhere. It would make a great start to an Injector FAQ. So, does anyone know how to get ahold of John, or what he might be up to? -Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 01:37:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27305; Tue, 28 Feb 95 01:37:02 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27300; Mon, 27 Feb 95 20:36:59 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rjGqG-000CuOC; Mon, 27 Feb 95 19:35 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 19:35:11 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199502272243.AA07017@tomcat.al.noaa.gov> from "Ciciora Steve" at Feb 27, 95 03:44:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 916 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ciciora Steve writes: > > I've learned a lot about how injectors from this article. Does anyone know > what happened to John? I'd like to get a hold of him; mabe he would give > someone permission to upload his article somewhere. It would make a great > start to an Injector FAQ. > So, does anyone know how to get ahold of John, or what he might be up to? John is somewhere around Cleveland, TN I think. He bought an old school house to turn into a Barbecue restaurant, and also built a huge barbecue on a trailer to haul around to races. I don't know if he ever got the business going or not. I think he completely swore off computers. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 02:28:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27381; Tue, 28 Feb 95 02:28:40 GMT Received: from delta1.deltanet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27376; Mon, 27 Feb 95 21:28:33 -0500 Received: from delta1.deltanet.com by deltanet.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA24029; Mon, 27 Feb 95 18:28:11 -0800 Received: by localhost (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.13B/1.0um) id AA0132; Mon, 27 Feb 95 18:27:03 -0800 Message-Id: <9502280227.AA0132@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 18:25:55 -0800 From: "George Najarian" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <131_96_1_793927555> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Gasoline weighs about 6 lbs/gallon; water weighs about 8 lbs/gallon (from memory as it pertains to aviation). -- George Najarian Team OS/2 najay@deltanet.com Team.Net '87 Mustang GT CP (13.9/102) From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 03:33:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27509; Tue, 28 Feb 95 03:33:15 GMT Received: from core.bard.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27504; Mon, 27 Feb 95 22:33:13 -0500 Received: (from hs283@localhost) by core.bard.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id WAA26471; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:30:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:30:57 -0500 (EST) From: Hans Steiner To: DIY EFI Subject: Ford EEC-IV Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I woas wondering whether anyone has trying to soup up a Ford car with EEC-IV and CFI. I know the car uses a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor to determine the amount of air going into the engine. I have the 5.0L V-8 with CFI and I wanted to make it more like the 302 H.O. Thanks Hans-Christoph From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 13:50:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28249; Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:50:21 GMT Received: from linus.mitre.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28244; Tue, 28 Feb 95 08:50:18 -0500 Received: from taos.mitre.org (taos.mitre.org [129.83.12.10]) by linus.mitre.org (8.6.7/RCF-6S) with ESMTP id IAA14180 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 08:50:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by taos.mitre.org (8.6.7/RCF-6C) with ESMTP id IAA04911 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 08:50:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199502281350.IAA04911@taos.mitre.org> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors In-Reply-To: Your message of "27 Feb 1995 15:44:21 MST." <199502272243.AA07017@tomcat.al.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 08:50:14 -0500 From: "Roberto L. Landrau" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>>>> "Steve" == Ciciora Steve wrote: Steve> So, does anyone know how to get ahold of John, or Steve> what he might be up to? He is a licensed amateur radio operator. The station database shows Call-Sign: WD4OQC Class: TECHNICIAN Real Name: JOHN G DE ARMOND Mailing Address: 1631 WHITLOCK RD, MARIETTA, GA 30066 I don't know how recent that information is, but it may be worth a try. Just don't say where you got it from... -------- Roberto L. Landrau landrau@mitre.org From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 15:34:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28732; Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:34:42 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28727; Tue, 28 Feb 95 10:34:39 -0500 Received: from pm1_11.magicnet.net (pm1_11.magicnet.net [204.96.116.61]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12758; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:46:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199502281546.KAA12758@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:21:31 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >Anybody have a formula to convert lbs/hr to gal/hr? > According to my Bosch book of all known facts, the sg of gasoline is 0.72 to 0.75 gm/cc I'm sure a whizz kid with a calculator could work that into gal/hr Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 17:03:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28961; Tue, 28 Feb 95 17:03:07 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28956; Tue, 28 Feb 95 12:03:05 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13949; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:03:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:03:02 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9502281703.AA13949@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sizing Injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Using the 0.75 gm/cc number from Peter, converting to lbs/gal 0.75 gm/cc * 2.2046 x 10-3 lbs/gram * 3.78541 x 10+3 cc/gal = 6.25 lbs/gal - Bruce Bowling From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 19:35:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29453; Tue, 28 Feb 95 19:35:15 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29448; Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:35:11 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA20301 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:35:08 -0500 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu Message-Id: <199502281935.OAA20301@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:35:08 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Hans Steiner" at Feb 27, 95 10:30:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1250 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hans Steiner wrote > > I woas wondering whether anyone has trying to soup up a Ford car with > EEC-IV and CFI. I know the car uses a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) > sensor to determine the amount of air going into the engine. I have the > 5.0L V-8 with CFI and I wanted to make it more like the 302 H.O. > > Thanks > Hans-Christoph Ford Motorsports sells a kit to convert it to mass air. I've been wondering which manufacturer has the best engine management system? Ford claims that their hardware is the best. I've heard that GM has the best software but my vote would be for SAAB . They have a system that lets them use them use the spark plug as a knock sensor. They run a little current through it on the exhaust stroke and can tell from the resistance of the air how complete the combustion was and weather knock occurred. They have a 32 bit system and electronic boost control as well. Who else should be on this list? Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology _________________________________________________________________________ Formula SAE Mailing list | send mail to fsae-request@list.gatech.edu fsae@list.gatech.edu | with the subject of subscribe and no body From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 20:03:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29634; Tue, 28 Feb 95 20:03:14 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29629; Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:03:11 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA03276 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:03:07 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199502282003.AA03276@access4.digex.net> Subject: Sizing injectors To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:03:07 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502271336.AA19423@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> from "Andrew H. Voss" at Feb 27, 95 08:37:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 352 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone have information on what injectors are what size? For example, Chevy 350 Tuned Port injectors are x and BMW 325i are y. That sort of thing. Does anyone know what the body color coding on Bosch injectors means? I've seen three or four different colors on different VW L-Jetronic systems. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 20:11:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29698; Tue, 28 Feb 95 20:11:02 GMT Received: from nsk.kodak.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29693; Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:10:56 -0500 Received: by nsk.kodak.com id AA29752 (5.67b+/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:06:11 -0500 Received: from khis_ns.khis.kodak.com(192.232.112.2) by nsk.kodak.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029748; Tue Feb 28 15:06:00 1995 Received: from dal-gw.dal.khis.Kodak.COM by khis_ns.khis.kodak.com with SMTP id AA29972 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:11:09 -0500 Received: from alamo.dal.khis.kodak.com by dal-gw.dal.khis.kodak.com with SMTP id AA17846 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:07:40 -0600 Received: from khan.khis.com by alamo.dal.khis.kodak.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09786; Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:09:00 CST From: king@khis.Kodak.COM (Robert King) Message-Id: <9502282009.AA09786@alamo.dal.khis.kodak.com> Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:09:12 -0600 (CST) Cc: fordnatics@freud.arc.nasa.gov (Fordnatics) In-Reply-To: <199502281935.OAA20301@acmey.gatech.edu> from "gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu" at Feb 28, 95 02:35:08 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1202 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > I woas wondering whether anyone has trying to soup up a Ford car with > > EEC-IV and CFI. I know the car uses a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) > > sensor to determine the amount of air going into the engine. I have the > > 5.0L V-8 with CFI and I wanted to make it more like the 302 H.O. > > > > Thanks > > Hans-Christoph > > Ford Motorsports sells a kit to convert it to mass air. Are you sure you're not referring to the Motorsport kit to convert from Speed Density SEFI (or "Multiport") to Mass Air SEFI? I've never heard of a kit to convert from CFI to anything... -- Robert King +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert A. King | | | Systems Software Engineer | "Dulce et decorum est en | | Kodak Health Imaging Systems | medio coitu mori" | | king@khan.khis.com | -- Nelson Rockefeller | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The opinions expressed here ain't even mine, much less my employer's! | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 20:42:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29832; Tue, 28 Feb 95 20:42:34 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29827; Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:42:31 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA22675; Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:43:13 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA02136; Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:40:15 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA02033; Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:39:49 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA26294; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:42:29 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:42:29 -0600 Message-Id: <9502282042.AA26294@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I don't know who makes the "best software" (whatever that means) or the "best hardware" (again, whatever that means). My experience is mostly in diagnosing problems in stock cars. From this perspective, Ford's KOER diagnostic is superior to anything GM or Chrysler have. My former auto mechanics instructor (ASE Master Mechanic) is convinced that GM doesn't know how to build reliable computers. Personally, I'm impressed that my 1986 Le Baron has enough "intelligence" in the diagnostics to determine whether a MAP sensor fault is electrical or pneumatic and can figure out whether there's too much resistance in a fuel injector's circuit (code 26 for those of you with Chrysler products) -- all this within a few hundred milliseconds of cranking the engine. So, here you have a bunch of "data points." I think that "best" is subjective and will probably become even more subjective as processor power increases. On the latter topic, does anyone here have any (public domain) information on GM's GEN V computer? I'm interested mostly in the machine's organization. Regards, Bohdan Bodnar From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 21:36:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00011; Tue, 28 Feb 95 21:36:42 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00006; Tue, 28 Feb 95 16:36:37 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA15025 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:48:23 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08860; Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:38:02 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9502282138.AA08860@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:38:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1434 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi I'm still new to the list and I'm behind and also ignorant of a lot of details. I'd appreciate it a lot if someone could clear up a few things for me. Thanks 1) Speed density vs mass flow: It would seem to me that for those of us lacking dynos and lots of test equipment that mass flow would have a definite advantage. But it is my impression that most aftermarket EFI units are speed density. True? If so, why and how are aftermarket users doing the necessary mapping? Those of you with your own projects, which are you using and why? 2) I recently read that when Chevy changed from throttle body to port injection with the rest of the engine the same, it gained about 17% in economy and about 2/3 that in performance. How much improvement could be expected by going to timed-sequencial? What manufactures are using timed sequential? Both Ford and Chevy said they were going toward it but . . . . Again, are those of you with projects going with timed seq. ? 3. Oxygens sensors: Several years ago there were wide A/F range sensors available for about $750 each. Clearly, the slick solution is to use something like that. Has the price come down enough so they are being used? A bolt on aftermarket that could build it's own table would make things so much easier. I'm sure that's enough questions for now. More later :-) Thanks for the help cat From owner-diy_efi Tue Feb 28 23:48:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00433; Tue, 28 Feb 95 23:48:11 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00428; Tue, 28 Feb 95 18:48:09 -0500 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [131.144.80.249]) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21001 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:48:05 -0500 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39573; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:48:03 -0500 From: wmcclend@st6000.sct.edu (William McClendon) Message-Id: <9502282348.AA39573@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Gatech's money people To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:48:02 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502281935.OAA20301@acmey.gatech.edu> from "gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu" at Feb 28, 95 02:35:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 746 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry I missed you guys at the meeting the other night. They all left me to work on the car by myself. Anyway, my advisor wants me to get your sponsor list if we can. Our funds are pretty much depleted. We finally got the car on the ground for a quick show last sat. We are still hurting for some materials and our jack shafts. Otherwise everything is going well. We still have the intake and exhaust to tackle. We're hoping to start testing around the middle of April. How are things over at the GT camp? I suppose you boys should have it all ready by now :) Tell Ennis that he has everyone over here fooled...they said he was pretty cool. Let me know about this stuff if you can. Good luck and thanks... William "Tom" McClendon SCT From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 01:11:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00550; Wed, 1 Mar 95 01:11:58 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00545; Tue, 28 Feb 95 20:11:50 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA18889 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:11:38 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199503010111.AA18889@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:11:38 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9502282138.AA08860@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> from "Chris Adam Thomas" at Feb 28, 95 01:38:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4014 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi everyone, just adding to a discussion from a few months ago ... 'cat' writes, > ... > 1) Speed density vs mass flow: > It would seem to me that for those of us lacking dynos and lots of > test equipment that mass flow would have a definite advantage. But > it is my impression that most aftermarket EFI units are speed density. > True? If so, why and how are aftermarket users doing the necessary > mapping? > > Those of you with your own projects, which are you using and why? From my experience, speed-density (or speed-throttle position) is favourable for aftermarket applications because it is easier, cheaper, more reliable and requires less work to interface. A fully mapped speed-density system (such as the one on my Daimler) can be tuned very satisfactorily on the road within a short amount of time (including the ignition system). Of course, a dyno session is required to get the best out of any system but I personally haven't bothered yet for my own street car eventhough I have a full EPA style chassis dyno and emmissions bench at my disposal. Mass flow system still require a mapping between engine speed and mass air flow and injector output (which can exist in many forms such as desired AFR maps and/or volumetric efficiency maps). In fully tuned form they perform as well as speed-density systems and are more suitable for many production systems. Aftermarket EFI is a totally different matter. MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. > 2) I recently read that when Chevy changed from throttle body to port injection > with the rest of the engine the same, it gained about 17% in economy and > about 2/3 that in performance. How much improvement could be expected > by going to timed-sequencial? Full sequential (which I haven't bothered to implement as yet) offers marginal improvements in performance, a little bit more in economy, lots for idle speed stability and lots and lots for emissions. The improvements would be very application specific. Full sequential systems have the potential to have very advanced injection diagnostics and have the facility to individually trim the outputs for each cylinder. > What manufactures are using timed sequential? Both Ford and Chevy said they > were going toward it but . . . . Here in Australia, Ford uses twin sequentially fired banks on its six cylinder engine (local) and full seqential on the V8 (imported). I believe the sequential system has been around for years. (EECIV) I can't remember waht the local GM cars (Holdens) use. > Again, are those of you with projects going with timed seq. ? > Yes, eventually. > 3. Oxygens sensors: Several years ago there were wide A/F range sensors > available for about $750 each. Clearly, the slick solution is to use > something like that. Has the price come down enough so they are being used? > A bolt on aftermarket that could build it's own table would make things > so much easier. From what I've gatherd, there are at least two types of wide A/F EGO sensors. The NTK sensor which is useful for AFRs from 10 to 30:1 which costs close to Aus$900 and the wide band Bosch unit which is wide band only in the lean region and cost around Aus$250. The Bosch unit operates as a voltage source as do normal EGO sensors. I'm not sure how the NTK unit (nor the Japanese UEGO sensors fitted to production cars) work. > Thanks for the help > cat Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------