From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 13:26:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01455; Wed, 1 Mar 95 13:26:28 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01450; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:26:25 -0500 Received: from pm1_22.magicnet.net (pm1_22.magicnet.net [204.96.116.72]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA03621; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:38:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199503011338.IAA03621@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 08:13:09 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The big advantage with using engine speed and throttle position as references in mapping an engine, is the exact repeatability of any set of conditions. To get any air mass meter to give out a specific voltage at an RPM is less easy, especially if you are trying to do this without a dyno. In air mass meters I do include manifold pressure sensors. The problems which doing it without an air mass meter generate, occur when the environment changes. If you do your programming at sea level on a sunny day at 70 degrees, the programming will not be correct when it is raining and you are half way up a mountain. Therefore, if you are going all out for performance and ease of programming, use throttle and engine speed. Otherwise, incorporate environment sensing with an air mass meter of some sort. A hot wire air mass meter will cater for inlet temperature, humidity,density (above sea level) and load. The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors are squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power settings sequential injection will provide better economy and emissions. The reason is inlet tract wall wetting and fuel droplet coalescing. If you imagine the fuel as an onion, you burn off layers until it is all gone. The smaller the droplet the fewer the layers and the more complete the combustion. Leaving the droplets in the inlet allows them to coalesce and create bigger droplets. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 13:54:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01571; Wed, 1 Mar 95 13:54:45 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01566; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:54:41 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rjopa-000CycC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 07:52 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:52:45 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503010111.AA18889@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 1, 95 12:11:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1881 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > > 3. Oxygens sensors: Several years ago there were wide A/F range sensors > > available for about $750 each. Clearly, the slick solution is to use > > something like that. Has the price come down enough so they are being used? > > A bolt on aftermarket that could build it's own table would make things > > so much easier. > >From what I've gatherd, there are at least two types of wide A/F EGO sensors. > The NTK sensor which is useful for AFRs from 10 to 30:1 which costs close > to Aus$900 and the wide band Bosch unit which is wide band only in the lean > region and cost around Aus$250. The Bosch unit operates as a voltage source > as do normal EGO sensors. I'm not sure how the NTK unit (nor the Japanese > UEGO sensors fitted to production cars) work. I'm not familiar with the sensors that the Jap lean-burn stuff use. I have used the NGK UEGO (it was US$1000 back then) though. The useful range is actually a Lambda range, the AFR range will depend on the fuel you are using. I was using the sensor with a Horiba MEXA-101L and it worked GREAT for tuning! It has two problems that I can think of for feedback control use, though. First, it's useful life is somewhere around 200 hrs. The second is that has to go through a 30 second burnoff cycle each time you turn it on, so you can't just turn it on when you get near WOT (I'm going by the Horiba owner's manual on this one, someone please correct me if this isnt really necessary). I have heard of at least one person doing closed loop under transients with the NGK's on marine race motors. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:33:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01664; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:33:52 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01659; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:33:49 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA17624; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:33:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:33:46 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503011433.AA17624@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: PLease help me Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 08:13:09 -0500 > From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) > Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed > The big advantage with using engine speed and throttle position as > references in mapping an engine, is the exact repeatability of any set of > conditions. To get any air mass meter to give out a specific voltage at an > RPM is less easy, especially if you are trying to do this without a dyno. In > air mass meters I do include manifold pressure sensors. I hope adjustability for load changes is in there. Absolute throttle position helps (throttle will be open more when going up a steep hill (more load) than on level grade at same speed, for ex.). > The problems which doing it without an air mass meter generate, occur when > the environment changes. If you do your programming at sea level on a sunny > day at 70 degrees, the programming will not be correct when it is raining > and you are half way up a mountain. Therefore, if you are going all out for See my subsequent post on how to correct to standard conditions..... > The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are > running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors are > squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power Right! Do the math, and see that at high RPMs the injector is open a great deal of time. Go to larger-flowing injectors and you may have controlability at idle. Dynamic range is a wonderful thing...... ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:57:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01827; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:57:04 GMT Received: from aces1.acenet.auburn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01822; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:57:01 -0500 Received: from aces6 (aces6.acenet.auburn.edu) by acenet.auburn.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1 aces1 1.0) id AA23554; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:56:59 CST From: Gregory A. Parmer Received: by aces6 (5.0/SMI-4.1) id AA09483; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:56:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:56:58 -0600 Message-Id: <9503011456.AA09483@aces6> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: PLease help me X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 993 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are > > running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors ar > > squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power > > Right! Do the math, and see that at high RPMs the injector is open > a great deal of time. Go to larger-flowing injectors and you may have > controlability at idle. Dynamic range is a wonderful thing...... 'Member how "History repeats itself?" The problem of idle metering vs high flow at WOT is what led to SECONDARIES in the carburetor days. The way to have the best of both worlds is to have a sequential system for proper control at idle and some form of secondary injection at higher speeds. I'd like to walk before I run, however... -greg Greg Parmer INTERNET: gparmer@acenet.auburn.edu Lead Specialist, Network Support VOICE: (205) 844-9660 Alabama Cooperative Extension Service FAX: (205) 844-3501 Auburn University, AL 36849-5646 From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:58:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01842; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:58:30 GMT Received: from nrcnet.nrc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01837; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:58:28 -0500 Received: from DECNET-MAIL by NRCNET.NRC.CA (PMDF #12639) id <01HNM8IW02A88WWTI0@NRCNET.NRC.CA>; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:48 EST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:48 EST From: Peter Orban Subject: Test & Measurement World magazine To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HNM8IW02A88WWTI0@NRCNET.NRC.CA> X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Vms-To: NRCNET::IN%"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The february copy of the above magazine is a special issue devoted to automotive testing. Most of the articles contain general information, but a one page article describes how to diagnose and test oxigen sensors in closed loop control systems. It also had diagrams of ox sensor waveforms of engines working in "good" and "bad" mode. Peter -- Peter Orban National Research Council of Canada Internet: peter.orban@nrc.ca From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 15:19:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02051; Wed, 1 Mar 95 15:19:35 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02046; Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:19:32 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rjqBh-000vImC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rjqBU-000uHaC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19:27 CST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:14:26 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI | 'cat' writes, | > ... | > 1) Speed density vs mass flow: robert dingli replied: | | Mass flow system still require a mapping between engine speed and mass | air flow and injector output (which can exist in many forms such as | desired AFR maps and/or volumetric efficiency maps). What is the mapping for? | In fully tuned form | they perform as well as speed-density systems and are more suitable for | many production systems. Aftermarket EFI is a totally different matter. | | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. Why is this? From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 16:20:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02383; Wed, 1 Mar 95 16:20:53 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02378; Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:20:38 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA18312; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:20:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:20:34 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503011620.AA18312@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: standard corrections Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI It is often desirable, when comparing test data taken on differnet days, to convert measured readings to a known "standard". There are two commonly-used corrections - the "standard", and the SAE J1349, which differ only in whrer they define standard temp. The correction, applied to obtained torque values with noted temperature, baraometer, and humidity, is the following: Standard correction STD: CF = (29.92 "Hg)/(TBaro - VP) * sqrt((459.7 + CAT)/519.7) with: Tbaro = Test Barometric pressure in inches of mercury VP = Vapor Pressure CAT = "Carburetor" Air Temperature in degrees F (engine inlet) For SAE J1349: CF = (29.92 "Hg)/(TBaro - VP) * sqrt((459.7 + CAT)/536.7) with: Tbaro = Test Barometric pressure in inches of mercury VP = Vapor Pressure CAT = "Carburetor" Air Temperature in degrees F (engine inlet) Using one of the CF values, the corrected torque is: Tcorr = (Tmeas + Ft)*CF - Ft with: Tcorr = Corrected Torque Tmeas = Measured Torque Ft = Friction Torque (see below) Friction torque (measured) table: Piston Speed Factor ---------------------- 0 0.088 500 0.105 1000 0.120 1500 0.145 2000 0.170 2500 0.203 3000 0.233 3500 0.265 4000 0.308 4500 0.368 5000 0.433 5500 0.503 6000 0.573 6500 0.650 7000 0.725 With Piston Speed = (RPM *Stroke)/6 RPM revs/min Stroke = engine stroke (inches) So Friction Torque is: Ft = Factor(Piston Speed) * CID with CID = Cubic Inch Displacement I have a subroutine (in "C") which computes all of the above which I wrote. It determines vapor pressure from humidity, and has altitude correction. I can post it if there is interest. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 00:47:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04048; Thu, 2 Mar 95 00:47:42 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04043; Wed, 1 Mar 95 19:47:36 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA23553 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:47:33 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA09687 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:46:42 +1100 Message-Id: <199503020046.LAA09687@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: NGK UEGO sensors To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:46:39 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathan R. Lusky" at Mar 1, 95 07:52:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2330 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jonathan writes : > > robert dingli writes: > > The NTK sensor which is useful for AFRs from 10 to 30:1 which costs close > > to Aus$900 and the wide band Bosch unit which is wide band only in the lean > > region and cost around Aus$250. The Bosch unit operates as a voltage source > > as do normal EGO sensors. I'm not sure how the NTK unit (nor the Japanese > > UEGO sensors fitted to production cars) work. > Note NTK (above) should read NGK. :-) > I'm not familiar with the sensors that the Jap lean-burn stuff use. > I have used the NGK UEGO (it was US$1000 back then) though. The useful > range is actually a Lambda range, the AFR range will depend on the fuel > you are using. I was using the sensor with a Horiba MEXA-101L and it > worked GREAT for tuning! It has two problems that I can think of for > feedback control use, though. First, it's useful life is somewhere > around 200 hrs. The second is that has to go through a 30 second > burnoff cycle each time you turn it on, so you can't just turn it on > when you get near WOT (I'm going by the Horiba owner's manual on this > one, someone please correct me if this isnt really necessary). I have > heard of at least one person doing closed loop under transients with > the NGK's on marine race motors. > I colleague of mine tested the viability of using individual NGK sensors in each of eight exhaust runners in a 5 litre Group A Commodore. As part of an initial test, he placed all eight sensors at the same point in an exhaust stream only to find that they each required individual calibration as a function of temperature (I'm not sure of the specific problem here). Anyway, he later settled on using one sensor with individual exhaust tappings from each of the runners. His concern was balancing the eight cylinders and thus only the relative AFR was important. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 01:14:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04107; Thu, 2 Mar 95 01:14:17 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04102; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:14:10 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA24961 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:14:00 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id MAA09732 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:13:01 +1100 Message-Id: <199503020113.MAA09732@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:12:59 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com" at Mar 1, 95 09:14:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2550 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi everyone, > | > 1) Speed density vs mass flow: > > robert dingli replied: > | > | Mass flow system still require a mapping between engine speed and mass > | air flow and injector output (which can exist in many forms such as > | desired AFR maps and/or volumetric efficiency maps). > > What is the mapping for? The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant air-fuel ratio. The desired air-fuel ratio is usually a function of speed and load. Most of the system I've encountered have an open loop map which the system would switch to under certain conditions such as high speed cruising, WOT and other speed/load combinations which aren't encountered in drive cycle testing for emissions certification. Such maps are determined empirically as are all the aftermarket efi systems available here. > > | In fully tuned form > | they perform as well as speed-density systems and are more suitable for > | many production systems. Aftermarket EFI is a totally different matter. > | > | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. > | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. > > Why is this? > I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt with. Most of the racing work I've encountered utilize individual throttle bodies for each cylinder or rotor. They generally don't use a plenumn and the reverberations in the inlet tracts result in useless pulsating manifold pressure signals. The inlet is typically fed through a filter and air box which are considerably larger than OEM MAF sensor inlets. Certainly, the moving vane MAF sensors are notoriously unreliable and fragile. I only recommend MAP sensors for turbo applications and other systems with stable manifold pressure signals (ie OEM plenumns). Rotaries (especially extended ports, bridge ports and peripheral ports) don't tend to produce suitable MAP signals, even if they do have plenumns. Throttle position based load sensing has proven to be the best otherwise. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 01:25:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04129; Thu, 2 Mar 95 01:25:04 GMT Received: from core.bard.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04124; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:25:01 -0500 Received: (from hs283@localhost) by core.bard.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id UAA21346; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:22:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:22:44 -0500 (EST) From: Hans Steiner To: DIY EFI Cc: Josh Waltzer , rl777@bard.edu, "Benet John O'Reilly" , Dawson McKinnon Morton Subject: Fight Govt. Censorship! (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>> Subject: URGENT PETITION -- Fight Govt. Censorship! >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone... >>> >>> A matter has come to my attention that is of the utmost importance to all >>> of us online. >>> >>> Simply put, a couple of senators have proposed a particularly >>> heinous piece of legislation titled the "Communications >>> Decency Act of 1995" (Senate Bill S. 314). Basically, the >>> bill would subject all forms of electronic communication -- >>> from public Internet postings to your most private email -- >>> to government censorship. The effects of the bill onto the >>> online industry would be devastating -- most colleges and >>> private companies (AOL, Compuserve, etc.) would probably have >>> to shut down or greatly restrict access, since they would be >>> held criminally liable for the postings and email of private >>> users. >>> >>> Obviously, this bill is designed to win votes for these senators >>> among those who are fearful of the internet and aren't big >>> fans of freedom of speech -- ie., those who are always trying to >>> censor "pornography" and dirty books and such. Given the >>> political climate in this country, this bill might just pass >>> unless the computer community demonstrates its strength as a >>> committed political force to be reckoned with. This, my friends, >>> is why I have filled your mailbox with this very long message. >>> >>> A petition, to be sent to Congress, the President, and the media, >>> has begun spreading through the Internet. It's easy to participate >>> and be heard -- to sign it, you simply follow the instructions >>> below -- which boil down to sending a quick email message to a >>> certain address. That's all it takes to let your voice be heard. >>> (You know, if the Internet makes democracy this accessible to the >>> average citizen, is it any wonder Congress wants to censor it?) >>> >>> Finally, PLEASE forward this message to all your friends online. >>> The more people sign the petition, the more the government will >>> get the message to back off the online community. We've been doing >>> fine without censorship until now -- let's show them we don't plan on >>> allowing them to start now. If you value your freedoms -- from >>> your right to publicly post a message on a worldwide forum to your >>> right to receive private email without the government censoring it -- >>> you need to take action NOW. It'll take fifteen minutes at the most, >>> a small sacrifice considering the issues at hand. Remember, the age >>> of fighting for liberty with muskets and shells is most likely over; >>> the time has come where the keyboard and the phone line will prove >>> mightier than the sword -- or the Senate, in this case. >>> >>> Yours in liberty, >>> >>> -don >>> >>> > >>> > Here's what you have to do to sign the petition: >>> > >>> > send an e-mail message to: S314-petition@netcom.com >>> > the message (NOT the subject heading) should read as follows: >>> > SIGNED >>> > eg. SIGNED lsewell@leland.Stanford.EDU Laura Sewell YES >>> > >>> > If you are interested in signing the petition, I would highly suggest >>> > investigating the details of the situation. You can find out more on >>> > the Web at http://www.wookie.net/~slowdog or in the newsgroup >>> > comp.org.eff.talk >>> > >>> > Save the 'net! If you won't do it for the sake of justice and the >>> > American way, DO IT FOR ME!! PLEASE!!!!!! >>> > >>> > --Laura From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 02:55:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04309; Thu, 2 Mar 95 02:55:27 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04304; Wed, 1 Mar 95 21:55:18 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rk114-000D4fC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:53 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: NGK UEGO sensors To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:53:26 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503020046.LAA09687@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 2, 95 11:46:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1244 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > I colleague of mine tested the viability of using individual NGK sensors > in each of eight exhaust runners in a 5 litre Group A Commodore. As part > of an initial test, he placed all eight sensors at the same point in an > exhaust stream only to find that they each required individual calibration > as a function of temperature (I'm not sure of the specific problem here). > Anyway, he later settled on using one sensor with individual exhaust > tappings from each of the runners. His concern was balancing the eight > cylinders and thus only the relative AFR was important. Ahhh, I forgot about that one. Each sensor is significantly different from any other given NGK sensor. You have to calibrate your test equipment to a given sensor... 8 sensors = 8 seperate calibrations. I talked to someone at Ford who has a big box he throws in the back seat that serves as an interface/calibration between the 4/6/8 sensors and his A/D stuff. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 13:52:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05055; Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:52:37 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05050; Thu, 2 Mar 95 08:52:32 -0500 Received: from pm1_06.magicnet.net (pm1_06.magicnet.net [204.96.116.56]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27649 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:05:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199503021405.JAA27649@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 08:39:07 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I think we are getting a little mixed up here! >> >> What is the mapping for? > >The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant >air-fuel ratio......... The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. The mapping is designed to take out the vagaries of the engine and other mechanical wobblies and get the air fuel ratio as close to stoichiometric as soon as possible. Then the slower reacting oxygen sensor is used to generate a trim signal to get the mixture to exactly stoichiometric under constant running conditions. "Learning" computers generate a second map from the oxygen sensors' data to create a faster and better approximation from the maps and then use the oxygen sensor to do the final correction. The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise through rush hour traffic. Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time the throttle is less than fully open. At fully open throttle the oxygen sensor is out of the loop and the system is said to be running open loop which means it is running on the map data only. This is preprogrammed in on dyno testing and usually gives best power and performance. >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. >> >> Why is this? >> > > >I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt >with......... Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know which row and column in the map to change. If you use a MAF sensor of any type then you have to define the load and this is less easy to reproduce on the dyno. Mapping is still fairly easy if you use the voltage output as a reference. Getting a stable airflow reading at a given RPM depends on throttle opening and dyno load. It is much easier to define the throttle opening and use the load to control the engine speed to where you want it. Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work adequately there as well. There is a school of thought which says they should be replaced because the mechanical flap across the air stream restricts the air flow and causes loss of power, but most racers are at full throttle anyway so it is kind of academic. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 17:09:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05539; Thu, 2 Mar 95 17:09:38 GMT Received: from masscomp.westford.ccur.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05534; Thu, 2 Mar 95 12:09:34 -0500 Received: from moe by masscomp.westford.ccur.com via TCP/IP with SMTP id aa00909; 2 Mar 95 11:06 EST Received: from localhost by moe.westford.ccur.com via TCP/IP with SMTP (local) id aa15511; 2 Mar 95 11:04 EST To: Robert King Cc: DIY_EFI, Fordnatics , dan@westford.ccur.com Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:09:12 -0600. <9502282009.AA09786@alamo.dal.khis.kodak.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 95 11:04:28 EST From: Dan Malek Message-Id: <9503021104.aa15511@moe.westford.ccur.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:09:12 -0600 (CST) > From: Robert King > >> > From: Hans-Christoph >> > I woas wondering whether anyone has trying to soup up a Ford car with >> > EEC-IV and CFI...... >> >> Ford Motorsports sells a kit to convert it to mass air. > Are you sure you're not referring to the Motorsport kit to convert >from Speed Density SEFI (or "Multiport") to Mass Air SEFI? I've never >heard of a kit to convert from CFI to anything... There is no kit, but you can do it. You need a bunch of '87-up parts, some modification, and lots of fortitude. The basic idea is that you want to move to the SEFI parts, but getting there is hard. The things that make it difficult are battery on the right side, dual/single/dual exhaust, cruise control, and so on. You have to upgrade the exhaust because you need the dual HEGO sensors, which means a new transmission crossmember,....You need the EFI intake. Yes, it will simply bolt on the engine, but then you need a plan for all of the rest of the stuff, like moving the battery to the other side, and the wiring harness, and the vacuum solenoids, and the cruse control, and the throttle cables.... The electronics is the easy part. Just call me when you have all of the other mechanical stuff done. But seriously, this is one of those conversions where you must consider the "sell what you have, buy what you want" rule. -- Dan From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 00:02:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06723; Fri, 3 Mar 95 00:02:56 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06718; Thu, 2 Mar 95 19:02:53 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA04140; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:02:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:02:51 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503030002.AA04140@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: ECF Source Code Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Some people have asked for this, so here it is. The following non-ANSI "C" code will take horsepower readings and convert them to standard conditions (60 deg F, 29.92 "Hg, 0% humidity, and at sea-level). This is useful for comparing HP figures that are listed at non-standard-corrected values. It is also fun to play with to see how much the environment changes a given power (like humidity and elevation). To use, just compile it (I leave this step to you), and run. - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- ---------CUT-------CUT------CUT------CUT-----CUT------ /* To compile on most Unix machines: */ /* cc -o ect ect.c -lm */ /* (-lm is the math library for sqrt() */ #include #include /* Calculate Environmental Correction Factor (ECF) */ /* Standard Correction */ /* Definitions of Varibles */ /* temp -> Test temperature in degrees F */ /* bpress -> Test Barometric pressure in inches HG */ /* humid -> Relative humidity in percent */ /* elev -> Altitude in feet */ /* B. Bowling 1993 */ float ecf(temp, bpress, humid, elev) float temp, bpress, humid, elev; { float tcorr, xk, bpc, vp, phcorr, cf; /* Temperature correction (derate about 1% for every 10 deg increase) */ tcorr = sqrt((459.7+temp)/519.7); /* Correct barometric pressure for local elevation */ xk = 1.6e06*(1.+.0022222*(temp-32.)); bpc = -((30.48*elev-xk)/(30.48*elev+xk))*bpress; /* Calculate saturated vapor pressure */ vp = (humid/100.)*((((1.54854e-08*temp-9.76951e-07)*temp+ 1.26819e-04)*temp+3.85377e-04)*temp+5.38397e-02); phcorr = 29.92/(bpc-vp); /* Pressure+humidity correction */ cf = tcorr*phcorr; /* Total correction */ return(cf); } /* Correct Horsepower to Standard Conditions */ /* Definitions of Varibles */ /* hp_uncorr -> uncorrected horsepower */ /* ecf_value -> environmental correction */ /* stroke -> engine stroke in inches */ /* cid -> cubic inch displacement */ /* rpm -> revolutions per minute */ /* B. Bowling 1993 */ float correct_HP(hp_uncorr, ecf_value, stroke, cid, rpm) float hp_uncorr, ecf_value, stroke, cid, rpm; { float pspeed, fhp, hpcorr; /* Piston Speed in in/min */ pspeed = stroke * rpm / 6.0; /* Friction Horsepower */ fhp = 9.66083e-02+(1.04731e-05+1.13813e-08*pspeed)*pspeed; fhp = cid * fhp * rpm / 5252.1; hpcorr=(hp_uncorr - (ecf_value - 1.0) * fhp) / ecf_value; if(hpcorr < 0.0) hpcorr = 0.0; /* Cannot allow negative */ return(hpcorr); } /* Test routine */ /* Bowling '95 */ void main() { float temp_in, bpress_in, humid_in, elev_in; float stroke_in, cid_in, rpm_in; float ecf_gen; float hp_in, hp_out; printf("=== HP Standard Correction - By Bowling ===\n\n"); /* Enter inputs for ECT computation */ printf("Enter test temperature (degrees F): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &temp_in); printf("Enter test barometric pressure (inches HG): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &bpress_in); printf("Enter test humidity in percent: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &humid_in); printf("Enter test altitude (feet): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &elev_in); /* Generate Enviromental Correction Factor */ ecf_gen = ecf(temp_in, bpress_in, humid_in, elev_in); printf("** Computed Correction Factor -> %f\n", ecf_gen); /* Enter engine-specific values */ printf("Enter engine stroke (inches): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &stroke_in); printf("Enter engine cid in in3: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &cid_in); /* Loop continuously over all desired corrections to perform */ /* Enter a zero for RPM or HP to exit */ while(1) { printf("--------- HP Correction --------------\n"); printf("Enter engine rpm: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &rpm_in); if(rpm_in <= 0.0) exit(0); printf("Enter engine horsepower: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &hp_in); if(hp_in <= 0.0) exit(0); hp_out = correct_HP(hp_in, ecf_gen, stroke_in, cid_in, rpm_in); printf("** Computed Corrected Horsepower -> %f **\n", hp_out); } } From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 02:27:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06964; Fri, 3 Mar 95 02:27:17 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06959; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:27:06 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA02630 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:26:59 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA10664 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:25:57 +1100 Message-Id: <199503030225.NAA10664@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:25:56 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503021405.JAA27649@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 2, 95 08:39:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6857 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter, > > I think we are getting a little mixed up here! > > >> > >> What is the mapping for? > > > >The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant > >air-fuel ratio......... > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a > uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. ... Thankyou for your *amazing* insight. Let me explain a couple of things. When I stated *aftermarket efi*, I was referring to non OEM efi systems. Such systems are designed and operated with performance, drivability, efficiency and very occassionally emissions in mind. I have never encountered an aftermarket efi system fitted to a car with a catalytic converter. Also note that the aftermarket market that I am dealing with here in Australia has much less strict emissions laws. Cats became manditory in 1986 and pre June 76 there was almost no restrictions (apart from charcoal canisters). Given the average age of local vehicles (10-15 years) you may start to understand the above priorities. > > The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through > and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is > usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise > through rush hour traffic. Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying > stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time > the throttle is less than fully open. At fully open throttle the oxygen > sensor is out of the loop and the system is said to be running open loop > which means it is running on the map data only. This is preprogrammed in on > dyno testing and usually gives best power and performance. I agree here, but note that some systems (eg Ford Falcon EA26-EA77 EECIV and EECV) also run open loop during idle (lambda = 0.9) and while cruising (lambda ~ 1.22). WOT can be as low as lambda = 0.85 for peak performance and engine longevity. Engine warm up is another matter entirely. Current laws state that the closed loop control has to kick in after 20-30 seconds (depending on the country and state) and before this time generally run quite rich. The aim is to reduce the high concentrations of pollutants which are produced in concentrated city environments. > >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. > >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. > >> > >> Why is this? > >> > > > > > >I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt > >with......... > > Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and > engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know > which row and column in the map to change. If you use a MAF sensor of any > type then you have to define the load and this is less easy to reproduce on > the dyno. Mapping is still fairly easy if you use the voltage output as a > reference. Getting a stable airflow reading at a given RPM depends on > throttle opening and dyno load. It is much easier to define the throttle > opening and use the load to control the engine speed to where you want it. ????? I'm not sure who is getting mixed up here. Map based system are much easier to set up (on the road or dyno) than throttle position systems. There is a much simpler relationship between MAP readings and engine load during steady state operation. Basically, assuming constant volumetric efficiency (and remember, I'm talking about the initial stages of open loop tuning), the air flow into an engine per cycle is closely proportional to the manifold pressure. Map based systems also automatically compensate for different ambient pressures. The main correction is for inlet air temp. For fine tuning (dyno work), it's just as easy to set the engine speed where required (assuming you have a decent dyno) and adjust the throttle position to give the required manifold pressure (vacuum). I don't understand how Peter finds this any more complicated than setting a throttle position. MAP readings are easily reproducable and actually mean something as opposed to a voltage output from a throttle positon pot. The maps generated using MAP based load are better in that each point is relatively representative of a speed/load combination. This is a bit messy to explain, but as an example, consider the table values for the 2000 rpm operation condition. On a throttle opening scale of 1 to 10, the map values at throttle openings 1-3 will mean something while those above will all be the same, ie the opening the throttle past a certain point makes very little difference to the air flow at this speed. Throttle based maps tend to have a lot of detail squashed into small regions of the map and thus suffer from resolution problems. Throttle position is used as a measurement of load where there isn't a stable or wide ranging manifold pressure signal to use. (Refer to the examples I posted yesterday.) The feed forward nature of the measured variable also allows faster control system response. Throttle position is useless for turbo systems as the assumption of constant upstream inlet pressure is no longer true. > Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there > would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They > are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work > adequately there as well. I disagree here. Ask any Jaguar mechanic about the reliability of the Lucas (Bosch) moving vane MAF meters fitted to XK engined XJ6s. The greatest improvement I could have made to the Jag FI system I fitted to my previously carbed XK4.2 was to ditch the air flow meter and use a MAP sensed load system. It performs much better as well. I have also encountered faulty Bosch moving vane meters on other brands. Backfires through the inlet can destroy such sensors very easily. > There is a school of thought which says they > should be replaced because the mechanical flap across the air stream > restricts the air flow and causes loss of power, but most racers are at full > throttle anyway so it is kind of academic. The mechanical flap is not the restriction but the overall cross sectional area. > Peter Wales Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 02:29:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06979; Fri, 3 Mar 95 02:29:24 GMT Received: from jeeves.egr.msu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06974; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:29:21 -0500 Received: from yew (yew.egr.msu.edu) by egr.msu.edu (5.0/1.34) id AA15678; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:07 -0500 Received: by yew (5.0/SMI-4.0) id AA00501; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:11 -0500 From: burkdani@egr.msu.edu Message-Id: <9503030230.AA00501@yew> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 287 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI You know, I was just thinking about that rule... I was considering the conversion of my '84 Trans am to EFI but in retrospect I think it will be cheaper to sell the car and buy an '89 model with the 5.7l tpi powertrain. I can then modify with much more results for the dollar. --drb From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 03:30:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07121; Fri, 3 Mar 95 03:30:36 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07116; Thu, 2 Mar 95 22:30:31 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA12724; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:29:49 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950303142926.416; 03 Mar 95 14:30:20 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:29:21 EST-11 Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a > uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. You are assuming that everyone HAS to run at catalytic converter. This is not true. > > Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and > engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know > which row and column in the map to change. Engines with large valve overlap and / or individual throttle butterflys have very low average MAP values (ie very little depression below ambient). They exhibit spikes in the MAP for the induction events: I believe you may be able to use the peak value of the MAP signal but throttle position is generally used. Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 03:41:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07141; Fri, 3 Mar 95 03:41:44 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07136; Thu, 2 Mar 95 22:41:25 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rkOD8-000CwxC; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:39 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:39:25 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503021405.JAA27649@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 2, 95 08:39:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1501 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales writes: > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. You only want stoichiometric A/F under conditions you see on the FTP. Non emissions applications should never be running at stoich (a point which I've argued with several F-SAE judges :( ). > The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through > and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is > usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise > through rush hour traffic. The FTP-75 is broken up into 3 parts (not sure the proper name for each part, we called 'em Bag 1, Bag 2, & Bag 3). Two hot starts and one cold start. Both city/traffic and highway driving. Supposedly the test was developed by following some EPA employee on his trip from home to work and back to home. > Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying > stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time > the throttle is less than fully open. My 91 GMC 2500 with TBI350 kicked into power enrichment mode at 40% throttle or 3400rpm. Power enrichment mode goes open loop, turns off the EGR solenoid, and grabs desired A/F from a lookup table. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 14:11:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07891; Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:11:33 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07886; Fri, 3 Mar 95 09:11:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_02.magicnet.net (pm1_02.magicnet.net [204.96.116.52]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22424 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:24:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199503031424.JAA22424@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 03 Mar 1995 08:57:59 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Things are getting a little complex here due to the size of the postings, so lets try and remove some of the flotsam. >Thankyou for your *amazing* insight. > >Let me explain a couple of things. When I stated *aftermarket efi*, I was..... ok, you dont want stoichiometric in Australia, its the law in the US and in England they still sell leaded gas! The question was why use mapping and I hope it has been answered. >> >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. >> >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. >> >> >> >> Why is this? >> >> >For fine tuning (dyno work), it's just as easy to set the engine speed where >required (assuming you have a decent dyno) and adjust the throttle position >to give the required manifold pressure (vacuum). I don't understand how >Peter finds this any more complicated than setting a throttle position. >MAP readings are easily reproducable and actually mean something as >opposed to a voltage output from a throttle positon pot............. First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. >> Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there >> would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They >> are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work >> adequately there as well. > >I disagree here. Ask any Jaguar mechanic about the reliability of the Lucas >(Bosch) moving vane MAF meters fitted to XK engined XJ6s........ Lucas and Jaguar!!!! Hardly the definition of reliability. Try asking a BMW mechanic. And before anyone gets upset over me panning two English products.... I am English (hangs head in shame) Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 18:08:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08825; Fri, 3 Mar 95 18:08:08 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08816; Fri, 3 Mar 95 13:08:04 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17619; Fri, 3 Mar 95 10:06:20 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNP1QNFAF400FGGM@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Fri, 03 Mar 1995 10:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14676; Fri, 3 Mar 95 13:08:46 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950303130459.480; 03 Mar 95 13:07:17 +0500 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:04:29 ET From: John T Stein Subject: How is MAT data used? To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI By way of introduction (since that seems to be de rigueur for initial list postings) I am an electrical engineer dealing primarily with analog circuit design. I can possibly contribute to this list in the areas of sensor signal processing and EMI management. My hands-on involvement with cars is considerably less intense than most of you, I'm sort of a "'shade-tree mechanic with an oscilloscope" but I AM interested in the technology. In the past I have seen numerous postings to this list that discuss how data from throttle position sensor, battery voltage, etc. are employed to modify the baseline injector pulse width. Could someone please explain how MAT data is used? Also, on a "learning" ECM such as is used on my 2.5 L GM engine, are the baseline pulse widths typically altered based on the long-term readings of MAT?? From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 20:24:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09156; Fri, 3 Mar 95 20:24:37 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09133; Fri, 3 Mar 95 15:24:33 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-163.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:22:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:22:49 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17820.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter wildly guessed: >First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. >It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than throttle position, if it can be measured. For a given throttle setting you could have a wide range of manifold air densities. For a given MAP the intake density is pretty well nailed down (and even better with an ideal gas correction from the MAT). In fact, you could do a simple control without a map. Just make fuel injection pulse width a linear function of MAP. It's like a one-hole map. If you really wanted to, you could estimate rho = P/(R*T) with the help of a MAT sensor, too. (This assumed that volumetric efficiency doesn't change with speed, but a simple 3rd or 4th order V.E. vs. RPM curve would probably correct for that, too.) Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing guys. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 4 03:46:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09906; Sat, 4 Mar 95 03:46:16 GMT Received: from maxwell.ee.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09901; Fri, 3 Mar 95 22:46:14 -0500 Received: by maxwell.ee.washington.edu (1.37.109.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.26 ) id AA25917; Fri, 3 Mar 95 19:46:14 -0800 From: Mike Gruber Message-Id: <9503040346.AA25917@maxwell.ee.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 19:46:14 PST In-Reply-To: <17820.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu>; from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 3, 95 2:22 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a > strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing > guys. > > Later, > Matt Truer words were never spoken!! -- Mike Gruber '88 Supercharged MR2 (ASP) '72 Datsun 510 (In progress ... perpetually!) From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 03:01:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15739; Mon, 6 Mar 95 03:01:06 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15734; Sun, 5 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9503060301.AA15734@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: [comment] resell of DIY_EFI material Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just got back after being out of town for a week.... In message <"2476*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> , you write: | This brings up an interesting point. What is the status of the info on | this list? I had been assuming that it was more or less public but | that it would be unethical to use it for profit. Comments? John? I support this position, but I know of no way to enforce it. I have thought about things like a GNU or BSD type of license and copyright, but I'm not a lawyer and don't know what kind of modifications would be needed for a project like this. Perhaps others have experience in this area? | I've got a MC68332 FI design in the works that I was planning on sharing | with the list on a non-commericial basis. I'd be more hesitant about | sharing it if somebody could take it and profit from it. We don't want | to end up being [... an] r & d lab [for anyone] !!!! I personally would like to see an EFI system that is 100% open to the public. I would would not object to members selling parts/kits (or group buys of parts) as long as prices are not inflated for personal gain. I suppose this in itself could be a problem. If we permit the selling of any one item it would become more difficult to stop marketing in general. This list belongs to all of us and the direction in which it goes is *only* controlled by the good judgment of each poster. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 13:45:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16713; Mon, 6 Mar 95 13:45:15 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16708; Mon, 6 Mar 95 08:45:12 -0500 Received: from pm1_04.magicnet.net (pm1_04.magicnet.net [204.96.116.54]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA14103; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:00:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199503061400.JAA14103@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 08:31:16 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. >>It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. > Robert proposed Throttle position, I countered with MAP. Now you throw in your 1c worth (it isn't worth 2c thats for sure) >Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than >throttle position, if it can be measured. >Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a >strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing >guys. > >Later, >Matt Things like personal insults are better left to children Now try and be a little motre professional please Peter From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 16:17:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17321; Mon, 6 Mar 95 16:17:18 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17316; Mon, 6 Mar 95 11:17:15 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 95 10:15:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:15:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matthew L Franklin Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503061400.JAA14103@magicnet.magicnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts. On Mon, 6 Mar 1995, Peter Wales wrote: > > >>First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. > >>It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. > > > Robert proposed Throttle position, I countered with MAP. Now you throw in > your 1c worth (it isn't worth 2c thats for sure) > > >Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than > >throttle position, if it can be measured. > > > >Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a > >strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing > >guys. > > > >Later, > >Matt > > Things like personal insults are better left to children > > Now try and be a little motre professional please > > > Peter > > > From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 17:34:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17759; Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:34:09 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17754; Mon, 6 Mar 95 12:34:05 -0500 Received: from pm1_01.magicnet.net (pm1_01.magicnet.net [204.96.116.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18186; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:49:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199503061749.MAA18186@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 12:20:07 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Matt wrote: >Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts. No need to apologise. If it hurts that much just keep your head down Peter From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 03:01:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20140; Tue, 7 Mar 95 03:01:48 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20135; Mon, 6 Mar 95 22:01:45 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA05682 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:01:42 -0500 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu Message-Id: <199503070301.WAA05682@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Intro - and question To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:01:42 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502271336.AA19423@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> from "Andrew H. Voss" at Feb 27, 95 08:37:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 806 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Andrew H. Voss wrote > That's why the Saab units currently use CD ignition. We are developing > systems with inductive ignition coils and coil redesign has been a big part > of the effort. The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to > extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology _________________________________________________________________________ Formula SAE Mailing list | send mail to fsae-request@list.gatech.edu fsae@list.gatech.edu | with the subject of subscribe and no body From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 04:18:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20221; Tue, 7 Mar 95 04:18:21 GMT Received: from scylla.cis.ufl.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20216; Mon, 6 Mar 95 23:18:17 -0500 Received: by charybdis.prl.ufl.edu (8.6.8.1/1.34) id XAA01009; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:24:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:24:25 -0500 From: kem@charybdis.prl.ufl.edu (Kelly Murray) Message-Id: <199503070424.XAA01009@charybdis.prl.ufl.edu> To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503060301.AA15734@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> (message from John S Gwynne on Sun, 05 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500) Subject: Re: [comment] resell of DIY_EFI material Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > | This brings up an interesting point. What is the status of the info on > | this list? I had been assuming that it was more or less public but > | that it would be unethical to use it for profit. Comments? John? > > I support this position, but I know of no way to enforce > it. I have thought about things like a GNU or BSD type > of license and copyright, but I'm not a lawyer and don't > know what kind of modifications would be needed for a > project like this. Perhaps others have experience in this area? You must decide if the public benefits from commercial products. If they do, then releasing information to the "public" includes commercial companies. If you believe either (1) all companies are evil; or (2) Only YOU know which are evil and which are not, then you must keep ownership of your information. -Kelly Murray From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 04:45:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20414; Tue, 7 Mar 95 04:45:42 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20409; Mon, 6 Mar 95 23:45:40 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA22076 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:45:37 -0500 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu Message-Id: <199503070445.XAA22076@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: hall effect To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:45:36 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <0098A030.D4EE96A0.104@hg.uleth.ca> from "furgason@hg.uleth.ca" at Jan 5, 95 02:26:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1013 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Y'all I saw this add and it reminded about this thread. It came out of the Socioty of Automtive engineers magazine Automotive engineering. There are lots of adds in there about sensors ect. I comes along with membership. Call 1 800 TEAM SAE for details all i know is that it is 10$ for students. Title: Custom Hall Effect & VR sensors. Picture: a gear with a tube shaped sensor with a two wire plug. Company: American Electronic Components Inc. (219) 264-1116 Right next to it is an add that goes title: DYNACUBE Text: 6 degrees of freedom, compact 1.25" cube, vehicle dynamic control, crash testing, airbag deployment Company: ATA sensors (505) 244-0373 Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 13:00:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21016; Tue, 7 Mar 95 13:00:34 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21011; Tue, 7 Mar 95 08:00:31 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA17384 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:59:57 -0500 Received: from koadpc43.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA20997 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:59:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199503071259.AA20997@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> X-Sender: c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:01:44 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Andrew H. Voss) Subject: Re: Intro - and question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >> The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to >> extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. > > Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little >I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. >It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. > > >Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology You're right. it does take a lot of testing to get the info out of the signal. Mecel is currently working on knock detection, cam position detection, misfire, preignition, and air/fuel ratio detection. Huge efforts have been undertaken by people in universities, Mecel, and Delco to try to realize these functions and good results have been achieved. I can't provide any details, unfortunately, but I also don't think a person with a soldering iron can get any useful signal out of a spark plug. The benefits to a car company are evident, especially if the individual sensors mentioned above can be deleted from the system. That's why we are working so hard on this. Andy Voss Advanced Powertrain Systems c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Delco Electronics Corp. (317)451-0415 GM:8-322-0415 "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got." - Unknown From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 17:05:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21847; Tue, 7 Mar 95 17:05:05 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21842; Tue, 7 Mar 95 12:05:02 -0500 Received: from pm1_12.magicnet.net (pm1_12.magicnet.net [204.96.116.62]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14977; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:20:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199503071720.MAA14977@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 11:50:55 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Knock sensor control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I remember reading something about this new system some time ago. As I remember, immediately after the ignition pulse, the ignition system puts a voltage (I think about 100v) across the plug. The gas inside the combustiuon chamber is ionised and so a current will flow. The current indicates the status of the combustion. I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Peter Wales At 08:01 AM 3/7/95 -0500, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: > >>> The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to >>> extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. >> >> Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little >>I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. >>It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. >> >> >>Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology > >You're right. it does take a lot of testing to get the info out of the >signal. Mecel is currently working on knock detection, cam position >detection, misfire, preignition, and air/fuel ratio detection. Huge efforts >have been undertaken by people in universities, Mecel, and Delco to try to >realize these functions and good results have been achieved. I can't >provide any details, unfortunately, but I also don't think a person with a >soldering iron can get any useful signal out of a spark plug. The benefits >to a car company are evident, especially if the individual sensors mentioned >above can be deleted from the system. That's why we are working so hard on >this. > >Andy Voss >Advanced Powertrain Systems c23ahv@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com >Delco Electronics Corp. (317)451-0415 GM:8-322-0415 > >"If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always >got." - Unknown > > > > From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 19:15:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23201; Tue, 7 Mar 95 19:15:33 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23196; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:15:29 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA07769; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:15:24 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA17731; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:15:22 -0600 Message-Id: <9503071915.AA17731@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Intro - and question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 95 22:01:42 EST." <199503070301.WAA05682@acmey.gatech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 13:15:15 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little > I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. > It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. Sounds like it would take some serious DSP horsepower in order to interpret the waveforms you were seeing. In some flourescent lamp applications, they can tell various things about the gas pressure, type, etc. by analyzing the current waveform produced by the drive circuit. It could be a logical progression to apply the same technology to the automotive world. It would take a good deal of testing to find out what the waveform would look like under different conditions. Seems technically feasable, though. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 20:10:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23723; Tue, 7 Mar 95 20:10:40 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23718; Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:10:24 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-129.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:08:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:07:51 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <19191.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI P. Wales wrote: >I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if >it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Yes, one of the things they looked for was an oscillation in the ionization signal. After a hard knock, the pressure waves bounce around in the combustion chamber. There are several modes of this oscillation so you'd have to consult an accoustitian for advice here. The ionization current oscillates at the same frequency. My memory is cloudy here but I think there may have been a little problem with it. It went something like if the spark plug is off to the side of the chamber the knock ion signal quality would be good, but typically the best location for combustion initiation is as near the center of the chamber as possible. And if the plug were at the center the ion current signal quality would be poor. I read that CAT uses a seperate ionization gap near the "end-gas" of one of their lean burn natural gas models to estimate flame arrival time. The "end-gas" is just the part of the charge farthest from the spark plug which burns last. They would adjust the fueling rate depending on the flame arrival time. My memory is cloudy here, too, so call your CAT dealer for a brochure. (Maybe it was Cummins?) Another use for ionization gaps is in the exhaust port (yes I'm not kidding). This can be used to sense incipient misfire. When a hydrocarbon burns, ions are formed in the combustion products. The concentrations decay with time. If the port concentrations are low, it means that the combustion was completed quite a bit earlier. If they are high, it means that the combustion just finished or is still occuring. Basically, if the ion signal is high it means that the flame speed is slow and in danger of misfiring. (Of course, 100% misfire would give zero signal.) This probably adds too much expense and complication to a commercial application, but it is fun to tinker with. A non-resistor spark plug and the right biasing circuit (100V is great, but 15V workes fine) can be put together for less than $10. There have been a few papers on this. If anyone is really dying to know, I can look them up. One problem that I had was that if the plug got too hot, its ceramic starts to get a bit too conductive. Its conductivity approaches and may exceed that of the ionized gas, completely saturating the ionization current sensor. Sorry for rambling so long, but I at home with a cold and have nothing else to do. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 20:42:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23980; Tue, 7 Mar 95 20:42:49 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23975; Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:42:45 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-129.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:08:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:07:51 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <19191.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI P. Wales wrote: >I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if >it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Yes, one of the things they looked for was an oscillation in the ionization signal. After a hard knock, the pressure waves bounce around in the combustion chamber. There are several modes of this oscillation so you'd have to consult an accoustitian for advice here. The ionization current oscillates at the same frequency. My memory is cloudy here but I think there may have been a little problem with it. It went something like if the spark plug is off to the side of the chamber the knock ion signal quality would be good, but typically the best location for combustion initiation is as near the center of the chamber as possible. And if the plug were at the center the ion current signal quality would be poor. I read that CAT uses a seperate ionization gap near the "end-gas" of one of their lean burn natural gas models to estimate flame arrival time. The "end-gas" is just the part of the charge farthest from the spark plug which burns last. They would adjust the fueling rate depending on the flame arrival time. My memory is cloudy here, too, so call your CAT dealer for a brochure. (Maybe it was Cummins?) Another use for ionization gaps is in the exhaust port (yes I'm not kidding). This can be used to sense incipient misfire. When a hydrocarbon burns, ions are formed in the combustion products. The concentrations decay with time. If the port concentrations are low, it means that the combustion was completed quite a bit earlier. If they are high, it means that the combustion just finished or is still occuring. Basically, if the ion signal is high it means that the flame speed is slow and in danger of misfiring. (Of course, 100% misfire would give zero signal.) This probably adds too much expense and complication to a commercial application, but it is fun to tinker with. A non-resistor spark plug and the right biasing circuit (100V is great, but 15V workes fine) can be put together for less than $10. There have been a few papers on this. If anyone is really dying to know, I can look them up. One problem that I had was that if the plug got too hot, its ceramic starts to get a bit too conductive. Its conductivity approaches and may exceed that of the ionized gas, completely saturating the ionization current sensor. Sorry for rambling so long, but I at home with a cold and have nothing else to do. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 21:29:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24152; Tue, 7 Mar 95 21:29:30 GMT Received: from dt.uleth.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24147; Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:29:24 -0500 Received: by hg.uleth.ca (MX V4.1 VAX) id 1030; Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:31:11 MST Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:31:10 MST From: furgason@hg.uleth.ca To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <0098D020.8E490260.1030@hg.uleth.ca> Subject: Knock Knock Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI This idea of using the spark plug to say something about combustion comes from analytical chemistry. Putting a DC potential arcoss the spark plug is exactly the way a flame ionization detector in a gas chromatograph (GC) generates a signal. A GC depends on travel time in it's column to identify the chemical compounds it is detecting. In a cylinder (I'm guessing here) ions from various chemical species may be produced at different times depending on the state of the combustion process. If one can resolve the signals in time it would be possible to say much more about the combustion process than simply if it was knocking or not. Dan Furgason University of Lethbridge Physics Department P.S. - I really like the conversation on this list. I am learning a great deal and having fun at the same time. My students will be the beneficiaries of much of the information I gather here. I hope we can continue without the politics that have been present lately. It would be a real shame to have a group like this one come apart. From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 00:20:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24597; Wed, 8 Mar 95 00:20:19 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24592; Tue, 7 Mar 95 19:20:16 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05381 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:33:34 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA15073; Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:21:50 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9503080021.AA15073@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: more questions about details To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:21:49 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 575 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI First I want to thank everyone that responed to my last post for information. A few more questions: What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from: Manifold absolute pressure - MAP Throttle Position switch - TPS Engine rpm Engine coolant temperature Manifold air temperature - MAT Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC Idle air control - IAC (?) Ignition voltage and for: Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda Also what whould "SDF or staged SDF injector firing" mean? Again; all assistance is appreciated cat From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 04:55:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25037; Wed, 8 Mar 95 04:55:27 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25032; Tue, 7 Mar 95 23:55:23 -0500 Received: from dialup-4-41.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 22:53:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 22:53:30 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <16883.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >levels involved? I'm looking for something that will indicate a "lean" >condition faster than an egt thermocouple. Am I correct in deducing that >a lean mixture will burn slower, thus higher ion currents will flow? How >about applying this to detonation detection? The SAE paper I'm thinking about was written by Brehob in '89 or '90. I built the sensor for that QUAD-4 based on the schematics from A Cambridge PhD thesis. I think the author's name was Peter Hand, but I'm not certain. He used 10 volts, if I remember rightly. I used 15 volts because that's what I had, and it helped the signal to noise ratio.. To get yourself playing with a real system as soon as posible, I would suggest the following. I hope I can remember. Get a voltmeter, 1 to 10 M-Ohm impedance. Get a 9 volt battery. Connect the one terminal of the nine volt to one leg of the DVM. Connect the other leg of the battery to one side of the gas to be sensed. Connect the free leg of the DVM to the other side of the gas gap. Then pass this gap through a hydrocarbon flame. Add salt to the flame to watch the ion concentrations increase. The 9 volt battery is your bias voltage, the internal impedance of the voltmeter is your current sensing resistor, the "ideal DVM" measures the voltage drop across the 10 Meg. It sounds really bad, but it works well. I think the current ranges from pico amps to nano amps. Maybe the ASCI gram will clear it up?? |-------- DVM----9VOLTBATTERY---------| | | | | |-------------> GAP <---------------| \/\/\/\/\/ FLAME It really works. A scope may be substituted for the DVM. On the engine version, I had mega-trouble with 60 Hz noise (on the dyno in the lab) when I used an off-the-shelf 15 Volt supply, but a big metal box to shield the supply from the amplification seemed to help a lot. Brehob used it to sense EGR induced misfire while Hand used it to sense lean misfire. Have fun... Matt From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 14:49:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25772; Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:49:06 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25767; Wed, 8 Mar 95 09:49:02 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA10624; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:05:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199503081505.KAA10624@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 09:34:49 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi (diy_efi) From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: more questions about details Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 04:21 PM 3/7/95 -0800, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >First I want to thank everyone that responed to my last post for information. > >A few more questions: > >What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from:..... >cat Can I recommend the Bosch Automotive handbook 3rd edition which is just recently published and avaiiable from the SAE for the princely sum of less than $30. It will answer all of these questions, and 10,000,000 more. It has 800+ pages of pure information and is an excellent reference work for all matters automotive, from first principles to the mathematical equations. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 16:04:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26154; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:04:18 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26149; Wed, 8 Mar 95 11:04:14 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25077; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:04:11 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA19314; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:04:10 -0600 Message-Id: <9503081604.AA19314@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: more questions about details In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Mar 95 16:21:49 PST." <9503080021.AA15073@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 10:04:04 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > A few more questions: > > What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM What type of ECM? GM? GM What? > > Manifold absolute pressure - MAP From the GM stuff I've played with, there are two types of sensors- 1 ATM and 2 ATM. The 1 ATM goes from 0 - 100 kPa, the 2 ATM goes from 0 - 190. I don't remember the voltage ranges offhand. > Throttle Position switch - TPS Just a pot with a 1k pullup in the ECM. A/D is on a 5.1 volt reference. > Engine rpm Determined from the pulse width of the REF signal, which is either based off a crank trigger or a distributor pickup. > Engine coolant temperature The ECMs I've seen have the ability to switch between a 348 ohm and ~3k internal pullup. The sensor used in not linear, so an internal translation table is required in the PROM. > Manifold air temperature - MAT Another resistive sensor with a 1k internal pullup. 8-bit A/D again, too. > Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC Black Magic. :) The ones I've looked at have a circuit on a ceramic substrate in the MEMCAL that does the filtering/level triggering and then sends an EST signal to the timing logic. If you're looking for a knock indication, watch EST. > Idle air control - IAC (?) Stepper motor! Tables in the PROM determine the output to the stepper. > Ignition voltage Nothing in the PROM determines this, from what I can see. > and for: > > Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda Gonna have to be a little more specific here. The PROM holds a multitude of VE and AFR Tables/Constants. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 18:14:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27064; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:14:42 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27058; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:14:23 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05680; Wed, 8 Mar 95 10:12:34 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNW1EO3BG000HWNY@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Wed, 08 Mar 1995 10:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16023; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:14:40 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950308131108.448; 08 Mar 95 13:13:11 +0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:07:08 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: more questions about details To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On 3-7 Chris Adam Thomas wrote: > A few more questions: > > What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from: > > Manifold absolute pressure - MAP > > Throttle Position switch - TPS > > Engine rpm > > Engine coolant temperature > > Manifold air temperature - MAT > > Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC > > Idle air control - IAC (?) > > Ignition voltage > > and for: > > Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda > > > Also what whould "SDF or staged SDF injector firing" mean? > > Again; all assistance is appreciated > > > cat > Speaking only for General Motors engine controllers, these ECMs power most of their sensors with +5 volts, as a result: (1) MAP ranges from about 0.8 volts to 5. Some GM MAP sensors produce increasing voltage with increasing vacuum, some with increasing pressure. Output voltage is an essentially linear function of vacuum/pressure. Since the ECM can monitor the (nominally) 5 volt supply it "knows" what one end of this function is, the initial accuracy and stability of the sensor establishes the other end.. (2) TPS is a potentiometer hung between the +5 volts and ground. WOT corresponds to ~ 5volts, closed throttle about 0. The ECM calibrates itself to the closed throttle level by looking at RPM, deducing when the engine is at warm idle, and noting the TPS voltage. (3) MAT and Coolant temperature sensors are negative temperature coefficient thermistors. The thermistor is part of a voltage divider which is "powered" by the +5 volts from the ECM. The voltage at the node in the middle of the divider is monitored by the ECM. I can look up the resistance vs. temperature characteristic for the thermistor if you're interested, it is highly nonlinear. (4) If you've been following the ongoing discussion re. knock sensors you know they are essentially piezoelectric accelerometers which "listen" for the sound of knocking. Their output is not directly useable and some form of charge-to-voltage signal processing is used before the signal is supplied to the ECM. If I remember correctly the signal which eventually goes to the ECM is nominally 5 volts and is negative-going with "knock". (5) IAC -- These are outputs from the ECM not inputs to it. They go to a stepper motor which controls a path for idle air to the engine. From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 18:30:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27154; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:30:13 GMT Received: from geni10.arl.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27149; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:29:54 -0500 Received: by lamp0.arl.army.mil (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA20918; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:51 -0500 Message-Id: <9503081829.AA20918@lamp0.arl.army.mil> X-Sender: faustini@geni10.arl.army.mil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: faustini@lamp0.arl.army.mil (Lou Faustini) Subject: Pop-Quiz... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ok, here are some nagging question I want to share.. Are the MAP and MAF sensors that are mass-produced by auto makers all calibrated the same? (among the same manufacturer) More specifically, can I take my MAP sensor calibration data from a Mustang and expect to see the same " cal curve" on an Escort's MAP sensor? The -sensible- answer, at least for some sensors, is "Yes Lou, they are all alike..." If I was a design engineer for Ford I would insist on using all the same MAP sensors across the board for two reasons. 1- I could make 20 million of the exact-same type, keeping tooling costs low. 2- It would make my dyno-testing much easier, by establishing company standard MAP data. Less confused engineers that way. I have a Chiltons manual that implies that all Ford MAP's are the same. It also implies that the MAT and ACT, and ECS (coolant) sensors are equivalent to each other, as well as across the board. That makes sense too, because you could use one look-up table, and one subroutine in your software, to take all three readings. You would also buy 30,00,000 of the same thermistor, and save a bundle of cash. The only difference would be the packaging. The MAF sensors could be a different story though. Their Physical geometry is dictated by airflow. A 5.7L Bronco motor will flow one hell of a lot more air than a 2.3L Mustang motor. You probably wouldn't want to use the same venturi casing on the MAF. Although, It wouldn't surprise me if there are only 2 or 3 different versions of the MAF sensor. I bet that they kept the electronic "guts" of the MAF the same across the board, again, to save money. I also know, (on the cars I have seen) that GM uses a MAP sensor that provides a voltage output. Same for Toyota, and Mazda. Ford likes to send a frequency that is proportional to the pressure. I guess that offers better noise immunity. (Although it -may- cause some EMI) The frequency approach also requires one less ADC channel. Last question: I was buying an EGO sensor for my Mustang. When I went to the friendly Ford dealer (NOT) I was asked for a "Calibration code" that is part of the VIN on the car. Why was this necessary? Aren't all EGO's the same? I thought they sort-of had to be, because of the gas detection method. Why not (see above arguments) make -all- EGO's calibrated the same, and then use your software (which has to be unique anyway) to interface the EGO to the engine setup? Any ideas? --------> LF From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 21:21:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27649; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:21:35 GMT Received: from gw2.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27644; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:21:19 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA18533; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:22:01 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA19281; Wed, 8 Mar 95 15:19:01 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA19173; Wed, 8 Mar 95 15:18:36 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA05159; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:21:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:21:30 -0600 Message-Id: <9503082121.AA05159@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Pop-Quiz... Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Ok, here are some nagging question I want to share.. > > Are the MAP and MAF sensors that are mass-produced by auto makers all >calibrated the same? (among the same manufacturer) More specifically, can I >take my MAP sensor calibration data from a Mustang and expect to see the >same " cal curve" on an Escort's MAP sensor? Yes (for the latter question). Send me e-mail if you want the frequency-to-pressure relationship for Ford's MAP sensors. Atmospheric pressure will correspond to something between 150 Hz and 155 Hz (pressure dependent). > I have a Chiltons manual that implies that all Ford MAP's are the same. >It also implies that the MAT and ACT, and ECS (coolant) sensors are >equivalent to each other, as well as across the board. That makes sense too, >because you could use one look-up table, and one subroutine in your >software, to take all three readings. You would also buy 30,00,000 of the >same thermistor, and save a bundle of cash. The only difference would be the >packaging. This is correct. The same thermistor is used, but the packaging is different. > I also know, (on the cars I have seen) that GM uses a MAP sensor that >provides a voltage output. Same for Toyota, and Mazda. Ford likes to send a >frequency that is proportional to the pressure. I guess that offers better >noise immunity. (Although it -may- cause some EMI) The frequency approach >also requires one less ADC channel. GM also uses a variable-frequency MAF sensor (max frequency is around 3 kHz). The original variable-frequency MAF sensors were made by Hitachi. Delco now has one out which is also a variable frequency sensor. Externally, the variable frequency MAF sensors are smaller than the older Bosch heated wire ones which GM used. > Last question: > > I was buying an EGO sensor for my Mustang. When I went to the friendly >Ford dealer (NOT) I was asked for a "Calibration code" that is part of the >VIN on the car. Why was this necessary? Aren't all EGO's the same? I thought >they sort-of had to be, because of the gas detection method. Why not (see >above arguments) make -all- EGO's calibrated the same, and then use your >software (which has to be unique anyway) to interface the EGO to the engine >setup? Physically, there isn't much difference among O2 sensors. Solid state electrolyte theory (on which the modern O2 sensor is based) was very well developed by the mid 1950s and the mechanism of oxygen ion transport was well understood (*lots* of theory and empirical data available then). My Mustang has a Tomco aftermarket sensor (which is nothing more than a GM O2 sensor). Ford requires "calibration codes" for EVERYTHING, no matter how trivial. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar@att.com From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 21:25:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27666; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:25:35 GMT Received: from [137.227.80.2] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27661; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:25:26 -0500 Received: by src.src.usbm.gov (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA04945; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:29:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Mitsubishi ECU To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi, This is my first post to this listserver, I haven't even gotten a taste of exactly what is discussed here, so here goes... I have a 1984 Dodge (mitsubishi) Colt Turbo GTS. This vehicle has throttle body fuel injection, controlled by an ECU of course. I have increased the boost via a check valve on the wastegate actuator tube and have made a few other less rewarding ($/hp) modifications as well. The stock ECU limits maximum boost to 9.5 psi by cutting fuel after that point. I have learned of a trick to fool the MAP sensor's taddle tale signal by momentarily disconnecting this wire when in boost by means of a GM no-oil-pressure = no-start switch. I haven't implemented this trick but I would like to in the future. I have some questions that you folks may be able to answer about increasing the richness of fuel mixture in case it begins to lean out in the higher boost ranges. 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate in a specific voltage range. 2. If I find that I am indeed running lean in high boost (very dangerous condition I understand) what are some easy ways to trick the ECU into giving me more fuel, assuming that my injectors aren't already wide open? In the repair manual written by Haynes, it gives the voltage ranges that come out of various sensors like the coolant temperature, altitude, and some others that I can't remember. Can I put a variable resistor inline with these signals to trick the computer into thinking its still cold? How well do these type of mods work? 3. For my own curiosity, I would like to know how easy it is to interface a notebook computer with some of the wires on your ECU to monitor the various data inputs and perhaps do some graphs of these signals to view how they respond to one another. 4. Finally, I would like to know how companies like SuperChips and StarChips, etc. modify ECU's. Do they buy used ECU's and actually reprogram them or do they start from scratch or what? I haven't looked inside my box, but I don't think there are any removable EPROM's like some GM cars have. Would reprogramming my fuel curve involve learning the assembly code for whatever chip is inside my ECU and making tweaks or what? Thanks in advance for all your input! Joel Robinson robinj@src.usbm.gov From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 00:46:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28231; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:46:33 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28225; Wed, 8 Mar 95 19:46:26 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA09511 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:46:17 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA15678 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:44:46 +1100 Message-Id: <199503090044.LAA15678@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:44:45 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19191.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 7, 95 02:07:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 671 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Matt, I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 00:46:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28238; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:46:49 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28233; Wed, 8 Mar 95 19:46:44 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rmWLI-000CuOC; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:44 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:44:39 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Joel A. Robinson" at Mar 8, 95 01:29:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1571 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Joel A. Robinson writes: > > 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an > LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would > like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if > it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate > in a specific voltage range. It will work with any zirconia O2 sensor. Almost all cars use zirconia sensors. However, that bar might as well only have 3 lights on it, because that is all its telling you. The A/F range over which a zirconia EGO has meaningful output is around 14.3:1 thru 15.1:1 (gasoline). You get richer than 14.3:1 or so (note, this range will be different for every single O2 sensor, even supposedly identical ones), and the output will vary more with EGT than A/F. For best power, you probably want to be somewhere between 12.5:1-13.5:1. The difference between 12.5:1 and 14.3:1 on a hot turbo motor can be holes in the pistons.... and you can't tell the difference reliably with a zirconia EGO. That doesn't mean the O2 sensor isn't useful, is great for tuning cruising conditions and idle. It's also better than nothing at WOT... if less than 650mV or so, you've definately got a problem. Greater than, you might be ok.... like i said, better than nothing! -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 02:28:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28405; Thu, 9 Mar 95 02:28:47 GMT Received: from tomcat.al.noaa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28400; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:28:44 -0500 Received: from aztec.al.noaa.gov by tomcat.al.noaa.gov with SMTP id AA27105 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:28:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199503090228.AA27105@tomcat.al.noaa.gov> Date: 8 Mar 1995 19:30:42 -0700 From: "Ciciora Steve" Subject: RE: Re: more questions about details To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI (sorry, it's not easy for me to include a previous post) Someone asked about voltage output from sensors. I have 'calibrated' several GM MAP sensors, and found them to be very similar in calibration from unit to unit (same part number), and very dependent on reference voltage. I even made a plot of output voltage vs Torr, but it is on a hard disk that is no longer attached to anything :-( In other words, the output is a fraction of the input voltage. If the sensor is at half scale, then the output would be half the input. I have been meaning to check the temperature coefficient of these guys. Humm, mabe I'll dig up that hard disk and recover my data... -Steven Ciciora Oh, ya. They are also an 'absolute' sensor. Ambient pressure changes with the weather. From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 02:50:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28466; Thu, 9 Mar 95 02:50:15 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28461; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:50:13 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-35.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 8 Mar 95 20:48:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 20:48:31 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <18223.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Robert wrote: >I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization >sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before >my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. > >Robert >-- Other than building the ion probe for that previous research, my exposure to that has been small. I was sort of a temporary worker for part of a year for that project, and read just enough to get the job done. Hopefully, Brehob referrenced that Cambridge PhD thesis in her '89 or '90 SAE paper. If she did, and you can get a copy of that thesis, I think the reference list was just fabulous. I think they often referred to "Langamuir probes" (spelling?) as the correct name for the sensors, but my memory is a little foggy here. Another colleague has done some knock work here and looked into ion gap sensing. His thesis emphasis shifted to optical methods, and I think he may have dropped the ion part. That may have been because he needed radically new territory to cover for his thesis. He probably still has some good references though, as he is very thorough in whatever he does. I'll ask him, too. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 05:22:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28654; Thu, 9 Mar 95 05:22:44 GMT Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28649; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:22:32 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by yarrina.connect.com.au with UUCP id PAA21552 (8.6.10/IDA-1.6 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:03:58 +1000 Received: from charon.adacel.com.au by server.adacel.com.au with SMTP id AA02247 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:30:02 +1100 Received: From ADACEL1/WORKQUEUE by charon.adacel.com.au via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950309151530.384; 09 Mar 95 15:20:41 +1000 Message-Id: To: DIY_EFI From: "David Smith" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:15:24 GMT+1000 Subject: O2 Sensors Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) writes: > .... Almost all cars use zirconia sensors .... Hi to you all. I've been lurking around this list for a while and have read some very interesting information about engine management systems. My immediate interest lies in modifying the EMS on my own car - a Nissan Skyline GTR that is powered by a twin-turbo in-line six. This car was only sold in Japan and Australia so information is scarce. The EMS seems to have some bugs and deliberate limits in it that mean that the car doesn't run so well under some conditions. Apparently the car responds well to fairly simple EMS program changes. Being a software/electronics engineer, I want to delve into the EMS myself. On to my questions. I want to install an O2 monitor. The training manual for the car says that "... the O2 sensor is made of ceramic Titania that drastically alters its resistance at the ideal air fuel ratio. The ECU supplies the sensor with approx 1 volt and reads the sensor output voltage..." Is this sensor different to the Zirconia sensor mentioned above? If so, what are the characteristics? Does anyone have any information on the CONSULT diagnostic system used by the EMS in late model Nissans? Thanks. David Smith. From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 05:21:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28646; Thu, 9 Mar 95 05:21:57 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28641; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:21:49 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA27621 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:21:33 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id QAA16034 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:19:57 +1100 Message-Id: <199503090519.QAA16034@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:19:55 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <18223.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 8, 95 08:48:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 869 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all, hot off the press from SAE 95 in Detroit Feb 27 - Mar 5 SAE 950004 Ion-Gap Sense in Misfire Detection, Knock and Engine Control Auzins, J., Johansson, H. and Nytomt, J., (Delco and Mecel) SAE 950003 Engine Misfire Detection by Ionization Current Monitoring Lee, A. and Pyko, J., (Chrysler) I personally haven't had time to read them yet. I'll report the interesting bits later. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 13:35:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29175; Thu, 9 Mar 95 13:35:25 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29170; Thu, 9 Mar 95 08:35:22 -0500 Received: from pm1_10.magicnet.net (pm1_10.magicnet.net [204.96.116.60]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA06444; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:52:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199503091352.IAA06444@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 08:21:01 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The early Mitsubishi ECU used a Motorola 6803 processor base with some extras in it which made it unobtainable. Typically of the Japanese, the semiconductor sales people knew nothing about the mask programmed CPU, ask the car people. The car people said we make cars not chips....go away. A considerable amount of work allowed me to read the firmware and create a pcb with an expansion port on it. This had the CPU, an EPROM and a port expander chip connected to the CPU's multiplexed addrss/data lines. The whole pcb plugged into a socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be, and the same pcb fitted the later Starion and the Colt cars available in England in 1985 and on. The fuelling on these cars is computed, not looked up from a table. This made it very difficult to change because without knowing the full algorithm changing one things altered others. My main concern was the removal of the boost limit and this was less difficult. We ran the Colt cars at 15 PSI boost without any problems (except massive torque steer) and as I remember we got about 175 HP from the engine. The way I would do it today would probably be with an FCD as it was too expensive in engineering time to do it that way for the few sales we got. To remove the boost limit, connect a 330ohm resistor in series with the boost pressure sensor line, and a 4.3v zener to ground to clamp the input to a maximum of about 4.5v. This will stop it cutting out, but when you get over 12 PSI boost the engine will start to lean out, so use your air fuel moinitor. Ignition is controlled from a seperate unit. I probably still have one or two of the pcbs lying around in England and you may have one if you want one. If I don't have any and have to get them made, I will sell them to you at my cost. Alternatively, I may even have the original artwork and you can make your own. You can also have the software as well. Hooking a laptop upto this computer will be very difficult as you would have to make an interface to convert all of the input signals to a digital format and write the sofware to display them. Let me know if you want any more info. Peter Wales Superchips Inc From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 15:43:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00150; Thu, 9 Mar 95 15:43:00 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00144; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:42:53 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14403; Thu, 9 Mar 95 07:41:09 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNXAG8498G00J9NM@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Thu, 09 Mar 1995 07:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16326; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:44:06 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950309104016.288; 09 Mar 95 10:42:36 +0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:40:00 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Joel A. Robinson writes: > I have some questions that you folks may be able to answer about > increasing the richness of fuel mixture in case it begins to lean out in > the higher boost ranges. > > 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an > LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would > like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if > it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate > in a specific voltage range. > An analog monitor on the O2 sensor line does yield useful information but ONLY if the input impedance of the meter is very high (>~10 Megohm). This means you will need a FET input amplifier between your bar graph indicator and the sensor. Also, be aware that the O2 sensors typically used are highly nonlinear with what is essentially a step changein output voltage at stoichiometric ratio. As a result, your indicator will oscillate about 450 millivolts. The duty cycle of the indicator will reflect the time-averaged AF ratio. > 2. If I find that I am indeed running lean in high boost (very > dangerous condition I understand) what are some easy ways to > trick the ECU into giving me more fuel, assuming that my injectors > aren't already wide open? In the repair manual written by Haynes, > it gives the voltage ranges that come out of various sensors like > the coolant temperature, altitude, and some others that I can't > remember. Can I put a variable resistor inline with these signals > to trick the computer into thinking its still cold? How well do > these type of mods work? > These "tricks"do work but remember that signals like coolant temp affect many engine operating parameters that you may not want to alter; e.g. idle speed. A similar trick is to rescale the output from the MAP sensor (if it is a voltage rather than frequency) with a resistive network at the output of the sensor processor. This may be a better solution than your switch approach. Remember that many ECMs continuously recalibrate themselves to baseline readings from some sensors; e.g. Throttle position sensor reading at idle, and may circumvent to your "trickery". From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 16:07:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00241; Thu, 9 Mar 95 16:07:05 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00235; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:07:01 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167059-3>; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:08:43 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11864; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:02:00 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011861; Thu Mar 9 11:01:41 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16263; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:49:49 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA08287; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:06:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:06:31 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9503091606.AA08287@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > hot off the press from SAE 95 in Detroit Feb 27 - Mar 5 How would Joe Q. Public get a copy of these papers? Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 17:00:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00942; Thu, 9 Mar 95 17:00:17 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00936; Thu, 9 Mar 95 12:00:13 -0500 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA03615 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:11 -0500 Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id MAA15017 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:05 -0500 From: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02047; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA00342; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9503091700.AA00342@pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 95 11:06:31 EST." <9503091606.AA08287@ivan.gallium.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 95 12:00:03 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >How would Joe Q. Public get a copy of these papers? > Mike >+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | >| Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | >+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ FYI: SAE Headquarters 400 Commonwealth Drive Warrendale, Pennsylvania 15096-0001 Tel: 412-776-4841 Fax: 412-776-9765 (from SAE's monthly magazine, Automotive Engineering) From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 19:34:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01516; Thu, 9 Mar 95 19:34:10 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01511; Thu, 9 Mar 95 14:33:53 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10133 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:47:26 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA16031; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:35:29 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9503091935.AA16031@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:35:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199503090044.LAA15678@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 9, 95 11:44:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 430 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Matt, > > I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization > sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before > my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. > > Robert > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au > Me to Me to! Any good references would be great also. cat > From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 20:45:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02093; Thu, 9 Mar 95 20:45:59 GMT Received: from pine.cse.nau.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02087; Thu, 9 Mar 95 15:45:55 -0500 Received: (from met@localhost) by pine.cse.nau.edu (8.6.10/NAU-2.2) id NAA02512 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:45:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199503092045.NAA02512@pine.cse.nau.edu> From: met@pine.cse.nau.edu (MTN-KAT) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:45:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Matthew Lee Franklin" "Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps)" (Mar 8, 8:48pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI This ion gap sensing sounds pretty good. My question is whether the current change due to gap erosion is corrected for. Seems that after a few thousand miles the sensor would start reading less ionization due to the rounding off of the center electrode. Millam E. Tackitt From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 03:30:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05560; Fri, 10 Mar 95 03:30:11 GMT Received: from mv.MV.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05553; Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:30:08 -0500 Received: by mv.mv.com (8.6.10/mv(b)/mem-940616) id WAA16909 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:30:05 -0500 From: station.MV.COM!mvarc!an!adh Message-Id: <199503100330.WAA16909@mv.mv.com> Received: by station.mv.com (1.64/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 09 Mar 95 22:22:29 EST for mv!coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Received: by mvarc.station.mv.com (1.64/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 08 Mar 95 22:43:37 EST for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Intro - and question Date: Thu Mar 9 23:42 EST 1995 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI It would take a good deal of testing to find out what the waveform would look like under different conditions. Seems technically feasable, though. and i agree that your average joe with a soldering iron wouldn't learn much, but your average joe with a soldering iron -and- a scope... a pc-controlled dyno and an engine with moderately high compression and pc-programmed dfi would complete my setup. this would let you easily and reproducibly vary speed/load, fuel/air, ign timing, and with 2 fuel tanks, octane. if there's anything to be seen in the post-ignition ionization, this would give a pretty good chance of seeing it. i think i'd also want a spectrum analyzer. well, these days, they come on pc cards too... _______________________________________________________________________________ Andrew Hay LIFE, n: A phenomenon that resists the second law of thermodynamics adh@an.bradford.ma.us ---Schroedinger From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 04:45:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05864; Fri, 10 Mar 95 04:45:16 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05859; Thu, 9 Mar 95 23:45:14 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-3.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:43:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:43:37 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17270.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >This ion gap sensing sounds pretty good. My question is whether the current >change due to gap erosion is corrected for. Seems that after a few thousand >miles the sensor would start reading less ionization due to the rounding off of >the center electrode. > >Millam E. Tackitt Good thought, but maybe the thing to look for is a signature or shape of a type of event such as a misfire or knock rather than the absolute current level. Granted, the absolute level really does matter, but within wear limits maybe you'd find an OK compromise. I suppose other things might affect the absolute level also, such as fuel composition (ethanol, MTBE, or more minute additives). Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 19:43:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07859; Fri, 10 Mar 95 19:43:02 GMT Received: from [137.227.80.2] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07854; Fri, 10 Mar 95 14:42:52 -0500 Received: by src.src.usbm.gov (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA16181; Fri, 10 Mar 95 11:47:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Peter Wales wrote: > > A considerable amount of work allowed me to read the firmware and create a > pcb with an expansion port on it. This had the CPU, an EPROM and a port > expander chip connected to the CPU's multiplexed addrss/data lines. The > whole pcb plugged into a socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be, > and the same pcb fitted the later Starion and the Colt cars available in > England in 1985 and on. You would know better than I, will the PCB of which you speak work with the 1984 Colt? I know that the engines are very similar but I think there are differences between the computers. As I understand it, the '84 is unique, 85 & 86 had the same ECU and '87 & '88 had a newer computer without a boost driven fuel cut. I think that the '87-on computer performs some other type of calculation like MAF > set maximum to protect the engine. I really can't remember what I read, it was printed in a copy of Turbo and High Tech Performance that featured an '87 Colt Turbo with quite a few mods. This article has been lost, God Damnit! > The fuelling on these cars is computed, not looked up from a table. This > made it very difficult to change because without knowing the full algorithm > changing one things altered others. My main concern was the removal of the > boost limit and this was less difficult. We ran the Colt cars at 15 PSI > boost without any problems (except massive torque steer) and as I remember > we got about 175 HP from the engine. My father has an '84 Colt Turbo with the '87 engine and ECU and I would estimate (no rolling road) he has 160+ horsepower. His main performance gain came from having no trace of a Catalytic (parasitic) converter. If I remember correctly, his car rarely exceeds 11 psi probably due to the microscopic turbo unit fitted to these cars. > The way I would do it today would probably be with an FCD as it was too > expensive in engineering time to do it that way for the few sales we got. To > remove the boost limit, connect a 330ohm resistor in series with the boost > pressure sensor line, and a 4.3v zener to ground to clamp the input to a > maximum of about 4.5v. This will stop it cutting out, but when you get over > 12 PSI boost the engine will start to lean out, so use your air fuel > moinitor. Ignition is controlled from a seperate unit. I am not familiar with the term 'zener'. Would you mind drawing this unit up and emailing it to me? I would certainly like to build the circuit you are talking about. Why does the engine lean out? Are the injectors maxxed out? How could I keep the AF ratio correct at higher boost levels? I have a little device that I ordered from JC Whitney (not exactly a world class performance outfit) that increases the injector pulse width and will allow up to 25% more fuel (if available of course) at an RPM starting point that you can set. The problem is, it only works with single primary injector TBI units and mine has 2. I guess this brings up another question: How the hell do my injectors operate? Are they like anti-aircraft guns that fire back and forth or is one really a primary injector? No repair manual that I have come across specifies, they only tell you that they're injectors A & B. > I probably still have one or two of the pcbs lying around in England and you > may have one if you want one. If I don't have any and have to get them made, > I will sell them to you at my cost. Alternatively, I may even have the > original artwork and you can make your own. You can also have the software > as well. I would certainly be interested in a PCB!!!! I would like to see the software too! I can't believe that you exist! No one ever has anything for these little cars. > > Hooking a laptop upto this computer will be very difficult as you would have > to make an interface to convert all of the input signals to a digital format > and write the sofware to display them. Okay then, forget it. My father has a Subaru Legacy 2.2L Turbo and I think I remember seeing a chip advertised for his car. What does this chip do and what is required to get the horsepower rating that was listed? I think it was around 250, a big jump from the extremely tame 160 HP it comes with. Thank you very, very much for your help! Joel Robinson robinj@src.usbm.gov From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 22:20:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08700; Fri, 10 Mar 95 22:20:14 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08695; Fri, 10 Mar 95 17:20:08 -0500 Received: from pm2_25.magicnet.net (pm2_25.magicnet.net [204.96.116.115]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA14866; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:37:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199503102237.RAA14866@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:05:35 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I do have some PCBs in England, some are being sent over next week. Anyone who wants one send me a snail mail address. The zener clamp looks like this: <-to boost sensor cut here to boost input on ECU -------------------------------X---------------------------- ! ! ! ! ! ! Z ! Z330 ohm resistor ! Z ! ! ! !----------------------- ` ! _ ! ! ! !4.3 v zener. White end to resistor ! ! _ ! ! !ground --------------------------------------------------------- The idea is that you feed the existing boost pressure sensor voltage in through a low value resistor to preserve its integrity. Then you clamp the voltage to about 4.5 volts with a 4.3 v zener. Both parts come from Radio Shack. The voltage at the computer now receives the same voltage from the boost sensor as before, until it rises to the zener voltage and then the zener starts to draw current and restricts the voltage from rising any further. Hence the boost can rise but the computer will not cut the fuel off. You should be aware that the fuelling is not going to increase past the zener voltage and the purists in this group are going to advise you that it is a dangerous thing to do, and they are right. If you do this, use an exhaust gas monitor and ensure the CO does not drop below 4% (Lambda number anyone?) This is the principle of the FCD devices sold by HKS and others and it will work on just about any turbo car with a voltage output pressure sensor, including the Subaru turbo. In general, do not turn up the boost pressure more than 25% from the stock reading. Use it wisely and you wont have problems. Go for too much boost and expect meltdown! The Colt has two large injectors in a manifold/pressure regulator system and they each fire alternately one at TDC and the other at BDC. Thus at low power, each cylinder gets a squirt. At full boost they are both open continuously. The system is curious because it uses an ultrasonic air flow meter (mass air meter) to measure air mass until the onset of boost then it switches to map sensing while on boost. Peter Wales Superchips Inc From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 19:52:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08388; Mon, 13 Mar 95 19:52:26 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08383; Mon, 13 Mar 95 14:52:22 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13338; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:39:41 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28483; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:39:38 -0600 Message-Id: <9503131939.AA28483@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: HC11 disassembler? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 13:39:31 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone know of a good disassembler for the 68HC11? I'm in the process of reversing the PROM from a '91 GMC Syclone, and I'd like to take a look at the code. Thanks, Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 22:50:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09621; Mon, 13 Mar 95 22:50:00 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09616; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9503132249.AA09616@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- This is an announcement of work in-progress toward creating an engine controller based on the 68332. A few weeks ago Rod Barman posted of his intent of designing such a controller, and (after much persuasion :) ) has my support in that I am now willing to help design, build, test, and write software towards its completion. We are looking for others who are willing to do the same. To facilitate this goal and avoid overcrowding diy_efi with detailed design issues, a second mailing list has been created. The new mailing list "efi332" is dedicated to discussion of project specific requirements. (Topics not specifically related to efi332 should still be directed to diy_efi. Cross-posting is an option when appropriate.) I invite all of you who wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to the mailing list "efi332@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" (send "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the status and goals of efi332. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 23:21:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09861; Mon, 13 Mar 95 23:21:47 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09856; Mon, 13 Mar 95 18:21:42 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0roJQf-000vJWC; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0roJQd-000uTRC; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21:19 CST Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:13:29 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI John S Gwynne Wrote: | This is an announcement of work in-progress toward creating | an engine controller based on the 68332. | | A few weeks ago Rod Barman posted of his intent of designing | such a controller, and (after much persuasion :) ) has my | support in that I am now willing to help design, build, test, | and write software towards its completion. We are looking for | others who are willing to do the same. To facilitate this | goal and avoid overcrowding diy_efi with detailed design | issues, a second mailing list has been created. The new | mailing list "efi332" is dedicated to discussion of project | specific requirements. (Topics not specifically related | to efi332 should still be directed to diy_efi. Cross-posting | is an option when appropriate.) I invite all of you who | wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to | the mailing list "efi332@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" (send | "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). I think the idea of a group project is great, but I question whether a separate list is really needed. I would guess the average traffic on this list is about 4 messages a day, that isn't really overwhelming. Anyway, I'll join the new list, but I'd say the traffic is better left in diy_efi. This group has about the highest signal to noise ratio of any group I've joined. As long as the additional traffic is still signal and not noise I wouldn't mind seeing it even if I didn't plan on using the '332. just my pov. | | With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the | status and goals of efi332. yes, please! --steve From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 23:45:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09918; Mon, 13 Mar 95 23:45:40 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09913; Mon, 13 Mar 95 18:45:35 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id PAA04000 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:25 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:23 UTC-0800 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:23 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950313154523] Content-Identifier: 2529 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503132249.AA09616@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: <"2529*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the > status and goals of efi332. Thanks for the invite. For those of you who may not know, the MC68332 is a 68K variant designed by Motorola and General Motors for engine control. There are supposedly three in the new Chevy Blazer. I've also discovered that Zytec engine management systems (used on some Ford products in Europe) are also based on the '332. My own experience with the '332 has been for robotic control. I've used a Motorola Business Card Computer module as the basis to control a couple of different robots. More recently I've designed and built our own '332 controllers using relatively cheap two-layer PCBs. We use the GNU tools to do all of our software development. What I've proposed to John and started to work on is that we standardize on a "core" board based on a '332. This will provide a common environment at a relatively low cost upon which FI systems can be built. The board will have a bunch of connectors that will allow lots of flexibility. The PCBs will be available for personal non-commercial use directly from the manufacturer (AP Circuits) and should be really cheap. As for time frame, I have almost all of the parts entered into the cad system, schematics entered, etc. so after we get the remaining issues resolved boards will be available within a couple of weeks. Once everybody gets on efi332 we can sort out issues like which connectors to use, memory size, development environment details, board shape etc. Thanks --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 14 02:15:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10442; Tue, 14 Mar 95 02:15:26 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10437; Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:15:23 -0500 Message-Id: <9503140215.AA10437@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: [CORRECTION!!!!!] 68332 based ECM (efi332) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 EST." <9503132249.AA09616@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:15:23 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- In message <9503132249.AA09616@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> , you write: | I invite all of you who | wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to | the mailing list "efi332@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" (send | "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). Send "subscribe efi332" to "majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". Postings should be sent to "efi332@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". My mistake... and now my head-ache... :). John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 15 06:16:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05750; Wed, 15 Mar 95 06:16:54 GMT Received: from kaiwan.kaiwan.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05745; Wed, 15 Mar 95 01:16:51 -0500 Received: from kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (389@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com [198.178.203.9]) by kaiwan.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA28731 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:46 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Received: (from douglas@localhost) by kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA03180; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:45 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: Black Feather Electronics To: diy_efi Subject: New 68HC11 Development / Proto Board Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI There's a new 68HC11 development / Proto Board available, for more info you can E-Mail to: (just say "send info", it's a human) Black Feather Electronics Or browse around the www site: "http://www.kaiwan.com/~douglas" From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 15 21:59:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09628; Wed, 15 Mar 95 21:59:13 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09623; Wed, 15 Mar 95 16:59:10 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA16444; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:59:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:59:07 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503152159.AA16444@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: auto programs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI FYI, I have been playing with cgi/html on the WWW, and I have made two interactive automotive programs. One computes the fuel injector pulse width at WOT, peak torque and finds the best injector, and the other corrects 1/4 mile ET and MPH run times to standard correction, to aid in comparison. The link is: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html Someone try them and let me know if they work! - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 16 18:37:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14250; Thu, 16 Mar 95 18:37:19 GMT Received: from interlock.lexmark.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14245; Thu, 16 Mar 95 13:37:15 -0500 Received: by interlock.lexmark.com id AA08655 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199503161836.AA08655@interlock.lexmark.com> Received: by interlock.lexmark.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 Received: by interlock.lexmark.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 To: "DIY_EFI%coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" From: Craig McCormick Date: 16 Mar 95 13:37:56 EST Subject: -No Subject- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just discovered your list today. I have read through the archives and could not find an answer to my question: A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to capture the data coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. We have the Diacom software from Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found out how to trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with different amounts of resistance. Now we need to know how capture that data on a PC. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. . . Craig craig@lexmark.com From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 16 19:54:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14472; Thu, 16 Mar 95 19:54:37 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14466; Thu, 16 Mar 95 14:54:32 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA22744; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:54:28 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA05164; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:54:26 -0600 Message-Id: <9503161954.AA05164@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL In-Reply-To: Your message of "16 Mar 95 13:37:56 EST." <199503161836.AA08655@interlock.lexmark.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 13:54:20 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to capture the data > coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. What kind of GM car? Depending on the year, make, and model, the data rate is quite different. > We have the Diacom software from > Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found out how to > trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with different amounts of > resistance. Is this what the Diacom does? I thought they sent out the proper ALDL mode request commands to get the ECM to send back the data it wanted. 3.9 k (factory test) mode is really pretty useless, but I haven't played with 10k mode enough to know what kind of data this mode generates. I suspect that the diagnostic pin is also a serial data input. I'm working on a similar project for the '91-'93 Syclone/Typhoon, but I haven't got it all working yet. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 01:27:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15535; Fri, 17 Mar 95 01:27:05 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15530; Thu, 16 Mar 95 20:26:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id KAA08600; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:06:09 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199503162206.KAA08600@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Lambda & Lead To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:06:08 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 758 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I would like to find some information on leaded fuels and exhaust oxygen sensors. The subject of leaded fuel and its effects seems to be one with much emotion and urban legend, so I am looking for verifiable references or production examples. Leaded fuel is still alive and well in New Zealand and a lambda sensor seems to me to be a fairly high priority in an EFI system that is to be developed and tuned mostly without a dyno. This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. Does anybody have any experiences with cars with EFI and no cat from the factory ? One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no appreciable degradation. Any pointers appreciated. Steve. From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 02:59:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15641; Fri, 17 Mar 95 02:59:24 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15636; Thu, 16 Mar 95 21:59:11 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA18759; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:58:23 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950317134322.736; 17 Mar 95 13:58:26 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:43:08 EST-11 Subject: Injector Dynamic Range Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.20-pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) then all we should need is an 8 bit map, however if the dynamic range is higher then there may be some real advantages in 16 bit (96dB) maps. Also, what sort of repeatability (error) do injectors have? Can someone quote a +/- 0.x ms for a common injector? I visited MOTEC last night and it has got me thinking..... Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 03:34:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15709; Fri, 17 Mar 95 03:34:16 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15704; Thu, 16 Mar 95 22:34:12 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA02656 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:34:02 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA06754; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:33:07 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA119701488; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:38:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 22:11:38 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Degradation of the Lambda sensor is a function of just how much lead it sees over time, but there's no question that it does happen. Some sensors are more resistant than others. Bosch, et al, have ratings of the form "40,000 km life @ 0.5g/l" for their sensors. You might be able to get exact numbers if you talk to them. A friend who runs Turbo Blue racing his Buick Regal GN has observed that the signal degradation is principally a slowing of response time. There are other effects which are probably well documented in the SAE literature. What you can do is go to Radio Shack, get a cheap digital multimeter, splice it into the Lambda sensor line, Velcro it to your dash, and simply watch it. A good sensor will transition from lean (about .02-.03 volts) to rich (about .70-.80+ volts) faster than the update rate of the DMM. As the sensor gets contaminated (over hundreds or thousands of miles, not dozens) the transition time will slow noticeably. The dynamics of your system will determine how slow is too slow. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 04:59:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16004; Fri, 17 Mar 95 04:59:01 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15999; Thu, 16 Mar 95 23:58:54 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA16395 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:58:44 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA25297 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:56:36 +1100 Message-Id: <199503170456.PAA25297@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:56:35 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503162206.KAA08600@kcbbs.gen.nz> from "Steve Baldwin" at Mar 17, 95 10:06:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1678 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Steve et al. > This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run > leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. > Does anybody have any experiences with cars with EFI and no cat from the > factory ? I haven't done any conclusive tests, but I have been using a non-heated single wire lambda sensor on my 4.2 Jaguar for over a year. It has had absolutely no problems with the leaded fuel available here in Australia (which I believe is relativley high in Pb concentration). The signal is read by my ECU and used for display purposes only. There is no point in running stoiciometric for my application and thus I only uses it as a rich/lean guide while tuning. > One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no > appreciable degradation. I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly possible given the chemistry of the sensors. My theory is to choose a second hand sensor which is cheap and easy to get and then to replace it if there are any problems. So far, there haven't been any. :-) The sensor I use started off life on a Toyota 3SG. regards Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 07:10:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16180; Fri, 17 Mar 95 07:10:41 GMT Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16175; Fri, 17 Mar 95 02:10:26 -0500 Received: by aztec.co.za (Smail3.1.28.1 #17) id m0rpW8p-000KdiC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 09:08 EET Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:08:08 +0200 (SAT) From: Wouter de Waal Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503162206.KAA08600@kcbbs.gen.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Steve Baldwin wrote: > Leaded fuel is still alive and well in New Zealand and a lambda sensor > seems to me to be a fairly high priority in an EFI system that is to be > developed and tuned mostly without a dyno. > This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run > leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. Here in South Africa we have leaded fuel also. Planning to move to unleaded soon. Anyway, my wife's Fiat Uno has Bosch Mono-jetronic, where a single injector is located in the throttle body. The system also contains a lamdba sensor. Every 20000 km they (the guys servicing the car) take out the sensor and clean it with a wire brush. Or so they say. I have been having cold start problems with the car lately (88000 km) but I doubt whether that would be related to a faulty lambda sensor. Anyway, it seems that either the sensor works fine with leaded, or that the FI system works fine with a gummed up sensor :-) Wouter From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:24:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16621; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:24:02 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16616; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:23:58 -0500 Received: from pm1_01.magicnet.net (pm1_01.magicnet.net [204.96.116.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16895; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:45:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171345.IAA16895@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:08:34 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 01:43 PM 3/17/95 EST-11, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I >was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of >fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) Thats an unusual approach! The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. The dynamic range depends upon the PRF or engine speed. An 8 bit counter would work satisfactorily and most early computers used 8 bits but as 16 bits is almost as easy to get and use, more is better Peter From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:27:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16692; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:27:53 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16687; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:27:49 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA21791; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:27:46 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA06330; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:27:45 -0600 Message-Id: <9503171327.AA06330@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Mar 95 15:56:35 +1100." <199503170456.PAA25297@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 07:27:39 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought > a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly > possible given the chemistry of the sensors. There are a few aftermarket companies who have the gall to claim that they have "lead tolerant" oxygen sensors. Caveat Emptor. I've heard good things about the o2 sensor found in GM cars. The after- market sensors (Wells, Tomco) are rumored to be crap. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:55:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16735; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:55:52 GMT Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16730; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:55:50 -0500 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.941228sam) id IAA19406; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:55:49 -0500 Date: 17 Mar 95 08:50:42 EST From: Eric Elliott <75771.3640@compuserve.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Control selection Message-Id: <950317135041_75771.3640_BHQ87-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello, Still reading DIY_EFI archives, number of EFI & ignition questions growing, required reading list growing fast, need to study more C, not enough hours/day. An introduction might be a better way to start, but perhaps my questions will adequately describe me. How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart Sportsman heads? Given these problems: High MAP due to a cam of 208/221degrees @0.05" valve lift, 0.474/0.51" valve lift. Less ignition advance due to high MAP. Idle rough when MAP sensor connected. Old stock engine & ECU had needed more small throttle ignition advance. An amplifier was inserted between the MAP sensor and the ECU, referenced to 4.73 VDC (the MAP output @ 1 bar), with 1.3 voltage gain. The result was worse idle, increasing oscillation till engine stopped. No load operation was smooth at 1200 RPM, but operation in gear was not tried. Tentative conclusions: ECU samples vary wildly @ idle due to long cam, ECU compensates, idle is worse. the added amplifier multiplied MAP variations by 1.3, increased idle instability. Would a high pass filter at the MAP sensor output, maybe 60 Hz cutoff, followed by a variable gain amplifier help? Am I on the right track? I have the often mentioned soldering iron, a Fluke 97 2 channel digital storage Oscilloscope, Fluke 87 DMM and a laptop computer. Any help will be appreciated, this is my daily driver while working in NY till June. Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if knock is sensed? Eric Elliott 800.827.5038 315.343.5657 75771.3640@compuserve.com Permanent address: 68 Carol Lane, Batesville AR 72501.8023 Ph.501.251.3659 Temporary Address: #2, 67 Albany, Oswego NY 13126-3244 Ph. 315.343.5657 From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 18:09:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17740; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:09:06 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17735; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:09:02 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10315 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:56 -0500 Received: from koppa1.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA21693 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171808.AA21693@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> Received: from KOPPA1/P_MAIL by koppa1.delcoelect.com (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:09:19 EST From: "The Chou duo" Organization: Delco Electronics To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:41 EST Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows v1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no > appreciable degradation. I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly possible given the chemistry of the sensors. My theory is to choose a second hand sensor which is cheap and easy to get and then to replace it if there are any problems. So far, there haven't been any. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone have any real evidence that heated sensors tolerate lead better? I've heard this claim from various sources, which usually sold heated O2 sensors, so they were far from impartial. In speaking with a O2 sensor guy here, he failed to see how a heated sensor could have any affect on their lead tolerance, as they'll have to be heated a heck of a lot to "burn off" any lead. The reason heated sensors are used in production is simply to allow closed loop op quicker, and the O2 sensor can now be put further away from the heat source. If anyone has performed any legit studies, I'd be very interested. *********************************************************************** Tom (or Nellie) Chou, nachou@koppa1.delcoelect.com (317)451-7970 (Tom), 7619 (Nel), 317-868-9672 (evenings) Unless indicated otherwise, the opinions expressed here are personal & NOT an official statement of General Motors / Delco Electronics. *********************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 18:28:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17784; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:28:53 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17779; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:28:50 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA11968 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:45 -0500 Received: from koppa1.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA23303 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171828.AA23303@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> Received: from KOPPA1/P_MAIL by koppa1.delcoelect.com (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:29:07 EST From: "The Chou duo" Organization: Delco Electronics To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:42 EST Subject: Re: Control selection Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows v1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? >How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart >Sportsman heads? >Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? >Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? >Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if >knock is sensed? First, what C3 TBI ECU are you using? This is an old GM ECM you're refering to isn't it? Dart Sportsman heads, you must be using this on a small block Chevy. You should talk to Ken Mosher about a ALDL laptop program. Mike Pitts has a prom burner program. All these guys are on the Buick Grand National mailing list. Email me if you want/need more info about it. Your last question, the ignition advance does not keep going up. There's a timing table that is used, and timing is retarded when knock occurs. *********************************************************************** Tom (or Nellie) Chou, nachou@koppa1.delcoelect.com (317)451-7970 (Tom), 7619 (Nel), 317-868-9672 (evenings) Unless indicated otherwise, the opinions expressed here are personal & NOT an official statement of General Motors / Delco Electronics. *********************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 19:37:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17973; Fri, 17 Mar 95 19:37:39 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17968; Fri, 17 Mar 95 14:37:35 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA16875 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:37:31 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA11956; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:36:47 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA229449299; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:41:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:00:16 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter wrote: >At 01:43 PM 3/17/95 EST-11, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >>I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I >>was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of >>fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) > > >Thats an unusual approach! > >The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable >and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is >undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close >pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. The dynamic range depends >upon the PRF or engine speed. An 8 bit counter would work satisfactorily and >most early computers used 8 bits but as 16 bits is almost as easy to get and >use, more is better > >Peter I recommend reading the paper "Non-Linearity at Low Flow Rates from Electro-magnetic Fuel Injector" by Nomura and Irino, JSAE Review, Vol. 8, No. 4. This paper clears up many issues. It references an SAE paper I've never read but could be easier to find, namely "A General Model for Solenoid Fuel Injector Dynamics", by Smith and Spinweber, SAE Paper 800508, 1980. First, Peter is either talking about an injector type with which I am umfamiliar or his understanding of how injectors work is mistaken. Both saturated-circuit and peak-and-hold injectors open when current flows through them and then close when the current flow is stopped. They do not "toggle", i.e. they do not go open at an open pulse and then require a "close pulse" to close. In regards to the statements about 1.5 msec opening/closing times, this is an oversimplified view. The "open time" ("To") (and here I quote from Nomura and Irino) is the "Time elapsed in milliseconds to completely open after receiving the 'fuel ON' command". For some injectors To may be 1.5msec, but I have heard of others being in the sub-0.7msec range. Fuel is certainly flowing while the pintle is moving to its open postion, although there may be a delay between when the current begins to flow and when the pintle retracts appreciably. The "close time" ("Tc") is the "Time required in milliseconds to close the valve and shut off fuel flow after receiving the 'fuel OFF' command" (i.e. after the current flow is turned off). Again, fuel still flows during this time. The injector is assumed to be fully open before closing in measuring Tc. If the injector was not fully open, it takes less time for it to close. It is true that with sufficiently short pulses no pintle movement occurs; Nomura and Irino calculate (for a hypothetical peak-and-hold injector) that this happens with pulse widths below 0.5msec. The biggest factor here seems to be the simple fact that it takes time for current to build up in the solenoid due to inductance. The reason the "oversimplified" view is useful is that, if you never operate the injector below a certain minimum pulse width, you can consider the fuel flow during the To and Tc periods to be constant regardless of total pulse width. This lets you compute your flow with the simple equation f=mt+c, where c is the amount of fuel that flows during To and Tc, m is the flow rate, and t is the time the injector is commanded open beyond To. You can still operate the injector at smaller pulse widths, but you get into a non-linear region where f=mt+c just doesn't apply. Nomura and Irino's paper characterizes this non-linear region. They start off with an interesting graph of a "typical" injector. For this injector, the linear region covers pulse widths from about 1.5 msec to about 9.2 msec. As the pulse width grows larger than 9.2 msec, the flow rate in volume/unit time actually increases. As the pulse width shrinks smaller than 1.5 msec, the flow rate first decreases, then increases substantially, finally decreasing once more. In this graph, the amount of fuel injected with a 1msec pulse is perhaps only 25% of the amount injected with a 1.5msec pulse, but the amount injected with a 0.7msec pulse is actually almost 50% more than with a 1.5msec pulse. I wouldn't take the exact values too seriously, because I'm eyeballing them from a graph and this injector may have been chosen because it exaggerates the features. The point of the paper is that the shape of the pulse width vs. flow curve, including the non-linear regions, is a characteristic of all injectors (peak-and-hold and saturated-circuit). You'll need to read the paper to get all the info, but here's the summary: "Non-linearity at low flow rates can be divided into two ranges, each with its own cause. Non-linearity at the lowest flow range is caused by the bounce of the needle when it collides with the maximum lift stopper. At the next lowest flow range, non-linearity is a result of the effect of residual magnetic force after receiving the "fuel OFF" command." Getting back to the original question about dynamic range, Nomura and Irino reference the term "dynamic flow range" which is essentially defined as the linear range (actually, the range in which flow is no more than 5% off from the linearized flow curve; in the example above, this range appears to be 1.5-9.2msec). This isn't dynamic range in the sense of the original question. The original question basically asks "how many distinguishable pulse widths are there between 1.5 and 9.2 msec (or, for that matter, between 0 and a lot)?" You can imagine that pulse widths of 2.000000msec and 2.000001msec might not produce measurably different quantities of fuel due to mechanical noise or whatever. You can also imagine that even if the fuel injector did deliver measurably different quantities of fuel the difference would be utterly washed out in the "noise" of fuel condensing on the walls, evaportating out the ports, etc. Nomura and Irino don't address this issue. It is a function of the signal/noise ratio of the injector as the original questioner anticipated. I personally don't know the answer, either. I do know that other factors besides signal/noise ratio of the injector fuel flow rate (i.e. fuel pressure fluctuations, ineffective atomization/vaporization, manifold wetting, mass transport delays, mixing, charge dilution, etc.) will have an effect. My unsubstantiated guess is that those things will be the limiting factors in just how many bits you could meaningfully use to time pulse width, not noise due to the injector itself. Eight bits does work. Sixteen bits sounds fine to me. Thirty-two? Just how big are the molecules to begin with? ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 23:46:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18909; Fri, 17 Mar 95 23:46:03 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18904; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:46:01 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rpliP-000CwTC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 17:45 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:45:57 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503171345.IAA16895@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 17, 95 08:08:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 984 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales writes: > The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable > and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is > undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close > pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. Maybe for your injectors, not for the ones I used. My understanding is that those numbers will vary condiserably by injector model and how the injectors are driven. I believe our idle pulsewidth was right around 1.0mS on our 93 F-SAE car (600cc ZX-6D, Camden vane blower, EFI Technologies Performance-Series ECU, 31lb/hr Rochestor injectors (from a flex-fuel Corsica), running M85, rev-limiter set at 15,000rpm). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 00:28:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19004; Sat, 18 Mar 95 00:28:51 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18999; Fri, 17 Mar 95 19:28:48 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rpmNo-000CuQC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:28 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Control selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 18:28:44 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <950317135041_75771.3640_BHQ87-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Eric Elliott" at Mar 17, 95 08:50:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2539 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Eric Elliott writes: > > Still reading DIY_EFI archives, number of EFI & ignition questions growing, > required reading list growing fast, need to study more C, not enough hours/day. > An introduction might be a better way to start, but perhaps my questions will > adequately describe me. > How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? > How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart > Sportsman heads? You keep mentioning spark, but don't mention fuel or idle air control... what are you doing with those? For spark, you are going to need to completely remap the spark table. The stock curve is going to be majorly wrong for your cam. Ignition advance needs to be a function of Load vs RPM, the table is MAP vs RPM, and your mods have totally changed the relation between MAP and Load. > Given these problems: > High MAP due to a cam of 208/221degrees @0.05" valve lift, 0.474/0.51" > valve lift. > Less ignition advance due to high MAP. > Idle rough when MAP sensor connected. > Old stock engine & ECU had needed more small throttle ignition advance. I'm not sure what table the spark runs off when the MAP is disconnected or what that looks like. Sounds like your advance is getting slammed backed when you hook it up. I'd bump the static timing at the distributor up 10 degrees and play some more. > Am I on the right track? I have the often mentioned soldering iron, a Fluke 97 2 > channel digital storage Oscilloscope, Fluke 87 DMM and a laptop computer. Any > help will be appreciated, this is my daily driver while working in NY till June. I think your waaaaaay off base, but someone like Dale would have a much more educated opinion. > Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Yes, it's called Diacom, put out by Rinda Technologies. $300 and well worth it. Don't have the contact info handy... > Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? No. > Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if > knock is sensed? My understanding is that when knock passes the threshold level, the ECM slams the timing way back and slowly creeps it back up. You don't ever want to be hitting the knock sensor. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 15:50:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20136; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:50:54 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20131; Sat, 18 Mar 95 10:50:51 -0500 Received: from pm1_04.magicnet.net (pm1_04.magicnet.net [204.96.116.54]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18061; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:12:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199503181612.LAA18061@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:35:18 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ed Lansinger wrote...[snip] I replied to the question in the manner I did because I thought the questioner was asking a wrongly phrased question. I do not believe the questioner considered the non linear region, but was simply asking whether an 8 bit counter would cover the entire fuelling requirements of the car given that the injector was correctly sized for maximum power. Please forgive me, Mr questioner, for not calling you by name, but a computer crash wiped out all of my archives and I can't recall the original posting. Please join in! Injectors are digital devices. They are either on or off! I agree that there are areas in the off /on transition and the on/off transition where they are non linear due to the fact that they are mechanical devices. I have always believed that manufacturers stay out of this area for fuel control because it is undefineable in its characteristics. You may be able to correct me on that matter. I am sure that there are injectors which can deliver full flow in under 1 mS and I am equally sure that there are injectors which will not be fully open in 2 mS. I was simply trying to explain that working in this area was IMHO undesireable and should be avoided. The 1.5 mS was a safe average for most injectors. Consider the sitaution when the engine is cranking. It requires a pulse of 1.5 mS or longer to inject some fuel (bear with me). Hence, we have an on pulse requirement of 1.5 mS. Now, when the injector is fully open at 6000 RPM the inejctor is powered continuously. Thus any reduction in fuel flow rate can be considered as switching the injector off, or pulsing it off, because as soon as the next injection comes it is going to be switched on again. Now it requires an off pulse of 1.5 mS. I was simplistically stating that it takes as long to close the injector as it does to open it and 1.5 mS is a good average time. Therefore switching it off for less than 1.5 mS will not reduce the fuel flow rate. OK? Now, I have ignored the non linear areas for simplicity and the fact that you should not be working it that area, so please leave that out of the argument. Finally, as to dynamic range, again ignoring the non linear area. In order to settle arguments, I like to take things to extremes as it tends to bring things into focus. So lets take the range of a)not starting the engine - (flow rate = 0) to b)running at 100% duty cycle at full power - (flow rate = full). Now thats a dynamic range of ... erm ... err .... quite a lot of dB :) If you look at it from the other aspect, if the full flow rate is say 500cc/min then what is the minimum flow rate, it depends on the duty cycle, again assuming the minimum pluse is in the non linear region. ie a 2mS pulse at 500 RPM injecting every second revolution gives a pulse of ..... not very many cc and a dynamic range of ....erm .... err .... lots of dB Now, the posting of Ed Lansinger sparks some interest from a commercial point of view. Why were the Japanese investigating the non linear region? Could it be that Japanese manufacturing skills allow them to make injectors which will accurately reproduce flow in the non linear region. If so is this a method of manufacturing in the Japanese tradition of just big enough/strong enough to do the job and no more. Can they save a yen by making an injector smaller? Will this bring down the price of Japanese cars? Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 15:54:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20150; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:54:17 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20145; Sat, 18 Mar 95 10:54:14 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18105; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:16:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199503181616.LAA18105@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:38:43 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 05:45 PM 3/17/95 -0600, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >Jonathan R. Lusky wrote: >Maybe for your injectors, not for the ones I used. My understanding is >that those numbers will vary condiserably by injector model and how the >injectors are driven. I believe our idle pulsewidth was right around >1.0mS on our 93 F-SAE car (600cc ZX-6D, Camden vane blower, EFI >Technologies Performance-Series ECU, 31lb/hr Rochestor injectors (from >a flex-fuel Corsica), running M85, rev-limiter set at 15,000rpm). > Well your injectors were wrongly set up for that car. They should have been set at 0.995 mS at idle :) Give me a break. The question didn't ask about any specific injectors, just injectors in general. Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:42:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20721; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:42:44 GMT Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20716; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:42:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:42:41 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <9503182042.AA20716@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Approved jeep.pass Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Subject: HELP! on C compiler PC for 68HC11 Am I going nuts or what? I downloaded the latest sc11 and the latest as11 from the motorola site for the PC (in ZIP format). Got it all un packed, and started trying some simple programs such as a "main" that just did a "and" of a value. Anyway, the problem is that NOWHERE is there provided a "run" package for the C complier! So when I ASM it, it wants "ccand" and such. Now I tried the one for the mac, called "xxc11run" or something like that, but it doesn't handle the stack properly and the "sc11" seems to generate for a different set of "run" code. Could someone PLEASE, PLEASE mail or post their "run" package for the sc11 compiler for the PC, and tell me what version you have and where you got it?? Does Motorola know this is a problem, or am I just too stupid (I spent nearly 5 hours trying to see if I could do ANYTHING with this, looking on the www site and all, and trying to modify the code myself to see what is wrong). HELP! Please! I want to get this thing going, and I'm stuck! (this is for the 68HC11) From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:47:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20880; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:47:50 GMT Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20875; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:47:48 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:47:48 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <9503182047.AA20875@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:51:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20988; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:51:57 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20983; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:51:54 -0500 Message-Id: <9503182051.AA20983@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Aproved: jeep.pass Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:51:53 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Subject: HELP! on C compiler PC for 68HC11 Am I going nuts or what? I downloaded the latest sc11 and the latest as11 from the motorola site for the PC (in ZIP format). Got it all un packed, and started trying some simple programs such as a "main" that just did a "and" of a value. Anyway, the problem is that NOWHERE is there provided a "run" package for the C complier! So when I ASM it, it wants "ccand" and such. Now I tried the one for the mac, called "xxc11run" or something like that, but it doesn't handle the stack properly and the "sc11" seems to generate for a different set of "run" code. Could someone PLEASE, PLEASE mail or post their "run" package for the sc11 compiler for the PC, and tell me what version you have and where you got it?? Does Motorola know this is a problem, or am I just too stupid (I spent nearly 5 hours trying to see if I could do ANYTHING with this, looking on the www site and all, and trying to modify the code myself to see what is wrong). HELP! Please! I want to get this thing going, and I'm stuck! (this is for the 68HC11) From owner-diy_efi Sun Mar 19 23:28:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24065; Sun, 19 Mar 95 23:28:35 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24060; Sun, 19 Mar 95 18:28:00 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA13786 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:27:51 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199503192327.AA13786@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: My Booklist.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:27:49 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2182 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, Here is my good deed for the day: After several years of collecting info on EFI (for the purpose of DIYing my EFI :-), And after coming against the typical 'The sensors take the readings and the computer does the calculations and the injectors put in the fuel' explaination time after time, I've finally found some books that are semi-usefull: The BOSCH books (previously mentioned on this group), of which there are TWO and another book on fuel injection: 1/ BOSCH Automotive handbook, 3rd edition (Blue cover), 852 pages Robert Bentley ISBN number 0-8376-0330-7 SAE ISBN number 1-56091-372-X I beleive the two pubilshers publish exactly the same book. This book is an 'Overall' Automotive reference. Worth buying, but the EFI content is fairly small. (I have the Robert Bentley version) 2/ BOSCH Automotive electronics handbook, ?? edition (Dark red cover), 350 pages. ISBN 0-89883-509-7 Not 100% sure who the publisher of this is, I think the SAE and VDI (germany) publish this. Lots more about Bosch EFI systems. 3/ Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications, By Jeff Hartman. Publisher Motorbooks international, PO Box 1, Osceola, WI 54020 ph 1-800-826-6600 (in the US), Reccomended Price $19.95 US. ISBN 0-87938-743-2 (I paid $AUS 34.95 from McGills in Melbourne for those in AUS) Probably the best value for money book on EFI. The book has snippets of everything - If it had detail on all the subjects it mentioned it would be the definitive reference. The Audience is intended as street rodders mainly, but there are good bits and peices for the DIY_EFI'er - Reccomended reading. There are several bosch books on each type of bosch injection, but they do not cover much more detail than the automotive electronics book, and are expensive ($Aus 20 each ~= $US 15 each). I have also found FORD training manuals to be usefull, as I have been able to borrow a freind's copy, but I'm not sure if they are readily available to the public. Apart from these references, virtually all EFI books that I've seen are 'how to fix brand X EFI systems' books. Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 05:48:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24523; Mon, 20 Mar 95 05:48:45 GMT Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24518; Mon, 20 Mar 95 00:48:42 -0500 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.941228sam) id AAA26962; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 00:48:41 -0500 Date: 20 Mar 95 00:45:19 EST From: Eric Elliott <75771.3640@compuserve.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter Message-Id: <950320054518_75771.3640_BHQ50-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello, Fluke is advertising soft & hardware to connect the 97 scopemeter to a PC. More details unknown. Is this just an interface to the FO printer output, or a way to control the scopemeter? Could be a great way to log at least 2 D or A inputs or outputs while driving. Anyone familiar with this package? Eric Elliott From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 06:10:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24580; Mon, 20 Mar 95 06:10:45 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24575; Mon, 20 Mar 95 01:09:30 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA24409; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:06:48 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950320170629.384; 20 Mar 95 17:06:55 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:06:17 EST-11 Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: > I replied to the question in the manner I did because I thought the > questioner was asking a wrongly phrased question. [chomp] > Please > forgive me, Mr questioner, for not calling you by name, but a computer crash > wiped out all of my archives and I can't recall the original posting. Please > join in! Ok, I will! What my question was effectively asking was: If you have a pulse of, say, 1.5ms what is the noise (repeatability) associated with this pulse? Is it 1.5ms +/- 0.1ms, 0.01ms or 0.001ms?? If it is 0.1ms and we have a (design) maximum pulse width of 10ms then the timer only needs a resolution of 100 steps (approx. 7 bit resolution or 42dB). OR: 100ms pulse with 0.01 resolution: 10000 steps (14bits or 84dB). This argument comes from normal Signal to Noise calculations, you could also use this to decide if you need a 10bit A/D on your MAP sensor or if 8 bits is enough. Anyway, thanks Ed for your reference to the SAE paper and interesting discussion of injector dynamics, and thanks to all the others who took the time to answer. Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 14:01:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25128; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:01:45 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25123; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:01:42 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA10526; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:01:54 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA23065; Mon, 20 Mar 95 07:58:48 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA23033; Mon, 20 Mar 95 07:58:39 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA07128; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 08:01:53 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 08:01:53 -0600 Message-Id: <9503201401.AA07128@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI There are several packages, many made by other vendors, which allow interfacing a Fluke Scopemeter to a PC. Although I do not own this equipment, I've seen it used when analyzing weird injector problems. Some features of the stuff I've seen: - crosshairs allowing you measure delta time and voltage - magnification - waveform printing - scaling If there's sufficient interest, I can dig up vendors' names, approximate prices, etc. E-mail only, please. Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar@att.com From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 14:30:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25229; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:30:54 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25224; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:30:21 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA16127 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:28:13 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503201428.AA16127@access4.digex.net> Subject: Questions (mostly ignition) To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:28:13 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1818 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been wondering about a few things... 1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? 2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or would it be better in terms of time? 3) Many modern micro controlled engines have discarded the distributor entirely in favor of multiple dual-output coils. In a dual-coil system, aren't the extra sparks in the exhaust-intake overlap period dangerous on a engine with radical cam timing? Why does the current Porsche 911 use still use a distributor? 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically back off the timing? 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? 7) After you decide you need a particular size injector, say 21 lbs., how do you go about finding a part number or source for it? 7) What size injectors are used in the Chevy 305 and 350 Tuned Port systems? Thanks for any consideration.../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 16:16:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25675; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:16:08 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25670; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:16:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201616.AA25670@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA20426; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:16:02 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Control selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 9:16:02 MST In-Reply-To: <199503171828.AA23303@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>; from "The Chou duo" at Mar 17, 95 1:28 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? You'll need to change the fast/slow MAP filter coefficients and mode coefficients. That's a start. You may need to play with the IAC coefficients, but the code was not designed to compensate for a big cam, so you may have to live with a slightly rough idle. Maybe raise the idle speeds. > >Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Yes, but you can't see that much on a C3. Mostly just sensor readings. > >Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if > >knock is sensed? Retard only, in general. However, there is a premium fuel flag which is set during half of the ESC diagnostic. It may or may not be enabled, depending on the code version. I believe most applications have this flag disabled. There are many code versions that run in a C3 ECM, and each PROM map is majorly different. I could point you to the right locations if you were driving a 1989 through 1992 GMC pickup truck with a hydraulic transmssion and a 350 or 305 engine. In any case, the C3 ECM is very limited in memory, and often has only enough RAM (like every byte is used) and enough ROM (30 to 40 bytes free). The serial port is slow and uni-directional. The best way I've found to figure it out is to read out the EPROM and masked ROM, and start disassembling. That's how most of us on this mailing list do it. If you have the same code version, code will start at $d617, where the EPROM is mapped from $d000 to $dfff. Generally, there are few PROM editors around on a PC because of the large numbers of different code versions around. I haven't seen any, although there may be some for certain versions of the code. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 16:52:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25870; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:52:00 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25865; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:51:57 -0500 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07978; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:54:44 -0700 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61054; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:50:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:37:36 -700 (MST) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) To: Bill Lewis Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503201428.AA16127@access4.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, Bill Lewis wrote: > While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been > wondering about a few things... > > 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? AHHH .. Finally a question I can answer ;) ... Motronic systems first compute the required ign. adv. thru a set of maps which are basically functions of conditions like rpm, load, engine temp, and battery voltage .. once the ECU has figured out what it wants to do, it sets a single variable, and lets the interrupt routines of the uProc. determine "how many teeth" should pass before firing the coil, injectors etc etc etc ... It really just counts teeth ... well, HALF teeth actually, both on the rising and falling edges ... so if your car has 130 teeth (you're SURE it's not 116 ?!?) ... then the resolution of the spark is ... 360/(130*2) or 1.38 degrees ... Some cars use a 60 tooth sensor wheel, that is missing 2 teeth .... On these cars, the ECU first counts teeth, and then counts TIME until the spark is needed to attain a resolution of 0.75 degrees or so .. > 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? Depends ... some 3, some 6 degrees, some more than that ..... But the basic premise is to retard a BUNCH and then slowly crank the knock adaption to timing back up .... eventually, the system should find a happy medium ... in performance work it is BAD to hit the knock sensor ... you can FEEL the power loss ... > 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? Cranking speed is anything over about 10rpms and below idle In fact, many ECU's detect "start" mode by hanging in a loop until the "teeth" fly by within a certain time and then set a start bit ... This bit is then cleared when the rpms reach a certain temp dependent preset rpm which is usualy a bit below the idle ... Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 17:29:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26212; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:29:51 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26207; Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:29:47 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rqlGs-000vIsC; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rqlGo-000uN3C; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29:29 CST Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:22:23 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Re: ALDL To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com Wrote: | | | | > A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to | capture the data | > coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. | | What kind of GM car? Depending on the year, make, and model, the | data rate | is quite different. | | > We have the Diacom software from | > Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found | out how to | > trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with | different amounts of | > resistance. | | Is this what the Diacom does? I thought they sent out the proper | ALDL mode | request commands to get the ECM to send back the data it wanted. I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the line, the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. I have some info on the slow (150 baud?) stream used in older S-10s, Suburbans, etc. from Dan Furgason who is also on this list. I can send it if anyone is interested. As far as the 8192 stream goes, that is a topic that comes up here, on the hotrod list, and on the corvette list regularly, as far as I know no-one has decoded it themselves or pried the info out of GM. Oh yeah, Ken Mosher on the GN/Ttype list has written a program that reads the ALDL info for that car. It is the slow data stream, and so might work for other slow stream cars. | | I'm working on a similar project for the '91-'93 Syclone/Typhoon, but I | haven't got it all working yet. Is that an 8192 stream? --steve | | | Dig | sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com | | From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 17:37:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26338; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:37:58 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26333; Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:37:54 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18525; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:37:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199503201737.MAA18525@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:22:08 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The more I read questions from people in this group, the more impressed I get with the different way of looking at things people seem to have. At 09:28 AM 3/20/95 -0500, Bill wrote: >While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been >wondering about a few things... > >1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference > between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? When reprogramming vehicles for power, the biggest effect comes at peak BMEP usually around 4000RPM. At that point, changes of about 1 degree affect the performance. Above and below that point, changes of 1-2 degrees are needed to do anything. This is on full throttle only of course. > >2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture > time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC > was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. > > Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? Could the anser be that you need to have the ignition advance increase upto peak BMEP and then holding it is good enough? > Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or > would it be better in terms of time? Good question! >4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? I can only answer the last part. No. Consider the 4 tooth unit fitted to Weber Marelli systems. The tooth at 90 deg BTDC is the one that the CPU waits for, then it triggers the counter with the exact timing delay in it. Which one triggers the timer in the Bosch system I do not know. >5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? 8 Deg The other questions, other people will be able to answer better than I Peter From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:04:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27106; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:04:03 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27101; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:04:00 -0500 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06898; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:06:48 -0700 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76753; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:02:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:02:13 -700 (MST) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've got a question, maybe you can answer for me .. Generically .. (as in overall) Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns slower, but produces more power ... Reason being .. I working on an EPROM (Stage 2) for the 1995 BMW M3 and I'm finding that adding fuel increases power ... I'm getting ready to add some more spark advance... but want to make sure that, at least theoretically, this is the right tact to be taking ... (Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:19:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27231; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:19:17 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27226; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:19:13 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201919.AA27226@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA03745; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:19:11 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: re: Re: ALDL To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:19:11 MST In-Reply-To: ; from "Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com" at Mar 20, 95 11:22 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com Wrote: > | > I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, > since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the line, > the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different > resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the > 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. That sets the ECM diags mode, the serial data mode can be set independantly of the ECM diags mode. Normally they are linked. The 8192 ALDL setup indeed uses bidirectional data on the one line.... it's a master- slave protocol, with the ECM being the slave, and the diag tool the master. They do this by Hi-Z buffers on the line (or by using an open- collector output stage, depending on who you talk to). I believe some test modes change the data stream with the ALDL resistance, but far more than that is accessable. Via this bidirectional data line, you can also enable and disable various test/diag modes... far more than the resistance of the A-B line. Via the ALDL connector, development versions of the ECM can re-program the EEPROM while driving, as well as putting in a fast watch on one or two variables instead of the whole list. This allows you to look at things like the O2 PID controller at the speed it actually runs at (many Hz). I've seen enough of the code for a late-model vette to see what you can do, but not how to do it. It would take me longer to figure it out than I feel like putting into that project. > As far as the 8192 stream goes, that is a topic that comes up here, on the > hotrod list, and on the corvette list regularly, as far as I know no-one has > decoded it themselves or pried the info out of GM. It's a lot of work, and for the same amount of work that goes into reverse-engineering an ECM to read out the data in a meaningful manner, you can do your own entire ECM project. It took me two years to get the C3 ECM (old data stream) figured out enough to be able to read the data and change all of the tables and constants. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:22:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27328; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:22:53 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27315; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:22:47 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA15486 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:22:40 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA00699; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:21:40 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA140367569; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:26:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:55:39 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: >Injectors are digital devices. They are either on or off! I agree that there >are areas in the off /on transition and the on/off transition where they are >non linear due to the fact that they are mechanical devices. I have always >believed that manufacturers stay out of this area for fuel control because >it is undefineable in its characteristics. You may be able to correct me on >that matter. Even "digital" electronic devices aren't "on" or "off", as my Computer Hardware Design professor once eloquently explained. Everything is analog. Hopefully, you can find operating areas (supply voltages within certain limits, switching times in a certain range, etc., all applicable to digital switches as well as injectors) over which you can make the simplifying assumption that the device exists in only one of two states called "on" and "off". It's important to understand the limitations of these simplifying assumptions in order to be able to stay out of trouble. It's also important if you want to explore and exploit what lies beyond the boundaries of these limitations. If the non-linear region of an injector were indeed "undefinable in its characteristics", then there's little more to be said. Herein lies the significance of the work done by Nomura and Irino in their paper ("Non-Linearity at Low Flow Rates from Electro-magnetic Fuel Injector", JSAE Review Vol. 8, No. 4, 1987 for those just tuning in). They have characterized the performance of injectors in this region, surmized a physical explanation for it, and supported their ideas with a mathematical model based on the assumed physical model that produces results which correlate well with the observed phenomena. Now that this knowledge is out, there's no need to limit our understanding of injector dynamics to the traditional "on/off" view, even though we may still choose to use this simplified model. I don't know (and if I did I probably couldn't comment) if the OEM's are exploiting this non-linear region. I can say for myself that when I was developing PCM's at school I stayed out of the non-linear region because it's much simpler to deal with. >I am sure that there are injectors which can deliver full flow in under 1 mS >and I am equally sure that there are injectors which will not be fully open >in 2 mS. I was simply trying to explain that working in this area was IMHO >undesireable and should be avoided. The 1.5 mS was a safe average for most >injectors. Certainly, I think Peter would agree with me that knowledge of the actual injector "on" time is extremely useful. I used the traditional 1.5ms "safe average" and later found it was way off for the two different injectors I used. The 1.5ms assumption, although it got the vehicle running, required a more complicated fueling algorithm for satisfactory operation than when I used the correct "on" time. In my case, the 1.5ms "safe assumption" caused me to be almost 100% off in my low-load fueling. I would encourage people to take the extra step and either get the correct information from the supplier or measure it themselves, because it's worth the effort. >Consider the sitaution when the engine is cranking. It requires a pulse of >1.5 mS or longer to inject some fuel (bear with me). Hence, we have an on >pulse requirement of 1.5 mS. Now, when the injector is fully open at 6000 >RPM the inejctor is powered continuously. Thus any reduction in fuel flow >rate can be considered as switching the injector off, or pulsing it off, >because as soon as the next injection comes it is going to be switched on >again. Now it requires an off pulse of 1.5 mS. I was simplistically stating >that it takes as long to close the injector as it does to open it and 1.5 mS >is a good average time. Therefore switching it off for less than 1.5 mS will >not reduce the fuel flow rate. OK? Now, I have ignored the non linear areas >for simplicity and the fact that you should not be working it that area, so >please leave that out of the argument. I thank Peter for clarifying that when he wrote about "off pulses" he was simply describing the time when current flow to the injector is shut off, a different yet equivalent way of looking at things. Definitely, a small enough "off pulse" would not affect fuel flow. I do not disagree with 1.5ms as a ballpark figure. I know that the open and close times are likely to be different from each other, because the physical situations are not symmetrical, but the total open time + close time should be practically the same regardless of pulse width if the pulse width is above a minimum. Incidentally, Nomura and Irino show that the time it takes for the injector to close after the current to it is shut off varies a lot depending on how much current was flowing through the injector at the time. A graph in the above paper shows a closing time reduction on the order of 30-50% from maximum near a particular current level. This phenomenon is present with both saturated circuit and peak-and-hold drivers. As another aside, an engineer at Bosch warned me against running injectors at 100% duty cycle for any appreciable period of time. Not that it can't be done, it's just that they overheat and begin to operate erratically. 75%-80% is more like it and is supposedly the proper figure to use when sizing the injector. >Finally, as to dynamic range, [snip] Peter's discussion describes the minimum and maximum pulse widths to which the injector is required to respond. This is the first half of the dynamic range issue. Andrew Dennison additionally addressed the second half with his discussion of the precision of measurement: >What my question was effectively asking was: >If you have a pulse of, say, 1.5ms what is the noise (repeatability) >associated with this pulse? Is it 1.5ms +/- 0.1ms, 0.01ms or >0.001ms?? >If it is 0.1ms and we have a (design) maximum pulse width of 10ms >then the timer only needs a resolution of 100 steps (approx. 7 bit >resolution or 42dB). >OR: >100ms pulse with 0.01 resolution: 10000 steps (14bits or 84dB). > >This argument comes from normal Signal to Noise calculations, you >could also use this to decide if you need a 10bit A/D on your MAP >sensor or if 8 bits is enough. At some point the noise in the system will make indistinguishable the actual flow resulting from pulse widths of nearly identical lengths. You can use statistical methods to determine whether one pulse width truly delivers a different flow volume than another pulse width. Pursuing this analysis across the entire range of minimum and maximum pulse widths looking for pulse widths that generate statistically different flow volumes will lead you to a finite list of pulse widths that are distinguishable. Counting them up will tell you how many bits you need to enumerate them. As Andrew points out, if there are 10000 distinguishable pulse widths, you can assign a unique binary number to each using numbers of no less than 14 bits. You can simplify the process if you know, say, the maximum standard deviation (a measure of repeatability) of flow volumes at the worst case pulse width. The larger this standard deviation, the fewer bits you can use (or will benefit from using). Now I remember! While at school I got some information about standard deviation of fuel flows as a function of pulse width for a particular injector. I'm not sure I can find it anymore. What I remember is that the standard deviation of fuel delivered at a particular pulse width was "very small" for pulses in the normal operating region and increased significantly at the low end. If I dig up the exact figures I'll post them, but no promises because I really have no idea where they are anymore. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:26:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27392; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:26:48 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27387; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:26:45 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201926.AA27387@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA04252; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:26:39 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:26:39 MST In-Reply-To: ; from "Jim Conforti" at Mar 20, 95 12:02 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns > slower, but produces more power ... Yes... Since engine power is air-limited (not fuel-limited), for maximum power, you want to use up all of the air that gets ingested by the engine. So you richen up the mixture until the best tradeoff of over-rich power 'loss' and air utilization give you maximum power. -Dale From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 20:27:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27945; Mon, 20 Mar 95 20:27:51 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27936; Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:27:38 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:26:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:25:59 -0600 (CST) From: Matthew L Franklin Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, Jim Conforti wrote: > I've got a question, maybe you can answer for me .. > > Generically .. (as in overall) > > Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... > > I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns > slower, but produces more power ... There is a fuel/air ratio for optimum flame speed. Too lean, it slows; too rich it slows. I was guessing it was around 10 to 20% rich. That is pretty close to max power for liquid fueled spark ignition engines. > (Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) You certainly don't have to read the whole book. :-) Even in an I.C. engine class we cover 20% of what's in there if we're lucky. See pages 402 to 403, particularly Figure 9-25 at the bottom of page 403. Keep in mind that the figure is for a laminar flame, and which is not exact for the turbulent flame typical in an engine, but it is a clue and a start and not a bad guess for guessing the effect of changing parameters. A combustion chemist will probably want to correct what I'm saying here. I only know enough to be dangerous. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 21:17:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28509; Mon, 20 Mar 95 21:17:20 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28504; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:17:08 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA22188 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:17:01 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03643; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:16:18 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA161974446; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:20:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:41:12 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jim Conforti wrote: >Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... > >I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns >slower, but produces more power ... Quoting from Heywood: "Both flame development and burning angles show a minimum for slightly rich mixtures ([phi is approximately] 1.2) and increase significantly as the mixture becomes substantially leaner than stoichiometric. .. Faster burning engines (which have higher turbulence) are less sensitive to changes in mixture composition, pressure, and temperature than are slower burning engines (which have lower turbulence)." -Heywood, John B., _Internal_Combustion_Engine_Fundamentals_, McGraw-Hill, 1988, p. 395 In other words, richer (up to a point) apparently burns faster (smaller burn angle), not slower. The minimum burn time appears to be right around the max power air/fuel ratio (phi about 1.2). That doesn't necessarily tell you not to bother advancing the spark after adding fuel. Spark advance may have been chosen based on factors other than power, such as expected gasoline quality or anticipated combustion chamber deposit build-up, all of which would require the engine to run retarded from MBT in the first place. >(Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) Run, do not walk, to buy his book. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions expressed above are my own, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 21:35:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28579; Mon, 20 Mar 95 21:35:57 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28574; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:35:39 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA20851; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 15:35:35 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA11141; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 15:35:35 -0600 Message-Id: <9503202135.AA11141@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:19:11 MST." <9503201919.AA27226@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:35:28 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com Wrote: > > | > > I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, > > since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the li > > the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different > > resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the > > 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. This was Steve's reply to my message, just to clear up some threading con- fusion. > That sets the ECM diags mode, the serial data mode can be set independantly > of the ECM diags mode. Normally they are linked. The 8192 ALDL > setup indeed uses bidirectional data on the one line.... it's a master- > slave protocol, with the ECM being the slave, and the diag tool the > master. They do this by Hi-Z buffers on the line (or by using an open- > collector output stage, depending on who you talk to). Ahh, so the ALDL _output_ line is bidirectional? The info I have said that there was an input/output protocol, but wasn't really clear about which line was the input. The impression I got was that the Diag input was also the ALDL serial input. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 22:47:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29113; Mon, 20 Mar 95 22:47:32 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29104; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:47:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_07.magicnet.net (pm1_07.magicnet.net [204.96.116.57]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA28062; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:47:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199503202247.RAA28062@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:31:39 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Let me answer this question from a different point of view. I don't know if a lean flame burns quicker than a a rich one, but, we find that generally peak power output comes at 4% CO. With Bosch systems you need to add 12% to the fuelling numbers to get close to this ( wonderfully consistant the Germans) Then you need to add 10 to 15% to the timing numbers to get the timing close. That one has to be done on a dyno to optimise it because the numbers are less around peak PMEP Peter From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 00:24:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29629; Tue, 21 Mar 95 00:24:37 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29624; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:24:16 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA09884 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:24:12 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA28279 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:21:54 +1100 Message-Id: <199503210021.LAA28279@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:21:53 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503201428.AA16127@access4.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Mar 20, 95 09:28:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4959 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Guys, Bill writes, > > 1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference > between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? > Bosch (in ther M1.7 Motronic, as used on our current Lancia research engine) have a 1 deg timing resolution which is clearly visible when using a timing light on a calibrated flywheel scale. Ford (EECIV and EECV, as used on the Falcon 4.0) have a 0.125 (that's right one eighth of a degree) timing resolution. Obviously this is significantly less than the +/- 5 deg combustion variability that conventional engines have. The important point is to optimise the average timing. Personally, I've resorted to 45/128 deg (~0.35 deg) resolution as a suitable comprimise between accuraccy and eight bit implementation. As Peter explained, there is little noticeable difference on the dyno for changes less than one or two degrees and even less on the road. > 2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture > time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC > was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. > > Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? > Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or > would it be better in terms of time? > There are two primary factors which govern the ignition advance. Firstly, the a constant time to burn results in a linear increase in advance as a function of rpm. Secondly, higher rpms and loads lead to higher turbulence and faster burn times. Thus the ignition advance should initially increase with rpm and then taper off and even decrease as the engine speed increases further. As a function of load (manifold pressure for example) the timing should decrease, ultimately being limited by engine knock and exhaust temperature. > 3) Many modern micro controlled engines have discarded the distributor entirely > in favor of multiple dual-output coils. In a dual-coil system, aren't > the extra sparks in the exhaust-intake overlap period dangerous on a engine > with radical cam timing? Why does the current Porsche 911 use still use > a distributor? > Radical cams have been known to cause problems with dual fire ignition systems. One thing to note is that the mixture (combustible or not) at the point of ignition during the exhaust stroke is not under compression and will have an extremely high concentration of exhaust in the mixture diluting it. It's hard enough to get a stable ignition at the best of times. > 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? > Our test engine uses a 60-2 tooth wheel at the front of the crank. The Bosch system would have to interpolate between them to achieve 1 deg timing resolution. I personally use a three tooth crank wheel to minimise the processing overhead on my six cylinder. (2 for a four cyl and 4 for an eight) This is similar to the six vane hall effect distributor system used on pre 94 Ford Falcons (EECIV) and works very well. > 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? > Bosch systems - 3 deg backoff and then 0.5 degree advance per cycle until the map value is reached or knock is detected again. > 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? > I use a 60 rpm minimum on my system. 60 - 300 rpm is cranking and the first map point is 500 rpm. With EFI and electronic ignition, my Jaguar (as unreliable as some people think it may be) will happily idle below 400 rpm and pull from 500 in fifth gear. > 7) After you decide you need a particular size injector, say 21 lbs., how do > you go about finding a part number or source for it? > > 7) What size injectors are used in the Chevy 305 and 350 Tuned Port systems? > I generally tend to use which ever injectors I can find that come off a similarily sized OEM engine. Luckily, in a lab that does a lot of alternative fuel research, brand new petrol injectors are easy to find. :-) Robert 'if only the rest of the car was as reliable as the EFI' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 00:33:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29670; Tue, 21 Mar 95 00:33:33 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29665; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:33:27 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA10362 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:33:23 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA28308 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:31:07 +1100 Message-Id: <199503210031.LAA28308@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:31:07 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <950320054518_75771.3640_BHQ50-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Eric Elliott" at Mar 20, 95 00:45:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1660 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Eric, > > Hello, > Fluke is advertising soft & hardware to connect the 97 scopemeter to a PC. More > details unknown. Is this just an interface to the FO printer output, or a way > to control the scopemeter? Could be a great way to log at least 2 D or A inputs > or outputs while driving. Anyone familiar with this package? > > Eric Elliott I was lucky enough to realize how usefull the PM97 would be a couple of years ago. Looking back, I wouldn't bother doing any EFI work without one. I bought the RS232 optical interface and have used it to print out waveforms and to log data. I didn't spend the then many hundreds of dollars for the Phillips PC software. The RS232 adaptor comes with a hefty instruction manual (which is incidently bigger than the PM97 manual) which explains how to send and recieve commands. It's all quite basic. Phillips also advertise an 'automotive kit' which basically includes lots of nice sensors such as inductive pickups. I don't think that there is any software changes but if there was I would be happy to find out about them. I'd like to duplicate the multiple high tension signals that you average workshop oscilliscope can display. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 06:28:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01623; Tue, 21 Mar 95 06:28:52 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01618; Tue, 21 Mar 95 01:28:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id SAA14115; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:19:08 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199503210619.SAA14115@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Who's Heywood ? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:19:07 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 466 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've seen a few references to 'Heywood' in recent posts. Can somebody give me some more information (ISBN, $$$$, etc). I recently got the Bosch Handbook mentioned here and it is excellent. Even the wife was impressed. I have the red book on order as well. Bosch also have a series of booklets on a variety of subjects, some of which look interesting. Does anybody have any experience of these ? Are they up to the same standard as the handbook ? Thanks, Steve. From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 07:08:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01691; Tue, 21 Mar 95 07:08:24 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01686; Tue, 21 Mar 95 02:08:19 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA01934 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 17:08:15 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199503210708.AA01934@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Who's Heywood ? To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:08:15 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503210619.SAA14115@kcbbs.gen.nz> from "Steve Baldwin" at Mar 21, 95 06:19:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 708 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Steve, > > I've seen a few references to 'Heywood' in recent posts. > Can somebody give me some more information (ISBN, $$$$, etc). > Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals John, B. Heywood McGraw-Hill 1988 ISBN 0-07-100499-8 Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 07:36:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01725; Tue, 21 Mar 95 07:36:16 GMT Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01720; Tue, 21 Mar 95 02:36:12 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38937; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 00:29:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 00:28:56 -0700 (MST) From: Wayne Wolinski Subject: ALDL-PC To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Can anyone tell me how to contact Rinda Technologies to get info/pricing on the Diacom product? Are there any other products on the market for interfacing PC's to factory engine controllers (including late-model units) for extracting diagnostic information? Thanks - any info muchly appreciated! Wayne Wolinski Northern Alberta Institute of Technology Edmonton, Alberta, Canada From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 13:46:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02353; Tue, 21 Mar 95 13:46:26 GMT Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02348; Tue, 21 Mar 95 08:46:23 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA182463577; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:46:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:46:17 -0500 From: FIScot@aol.com Message-Id: <950321084616_56113078@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re:Booklist Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Subject: My Booklist.. > Date: 95-03-19 19:05:54 EST > From: c.pugsley@trl.oz.au (Craig Pugsley) > Hi there, > Here is my good deed for the day: > After several years of collecting info on EFI (for the purpose of > DIYing my EFI :-), And after coming against the typical 'The sensors > take the readings and the computer does the calculations and the > injectors put in the fuel' explaination time after time, I've finally > found some books that are semi-usefull: [snip] > 3/ Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications, By > Jeff Hartman. Publisher Motorbooks international, PO Box 1, Osceola, > WI 54020 ph 1-800-826-6600 (in the US), Reccomended Price $19.95 US. > ISBN 0-87938-743-2 > (I paid $AUS 34.95 from McGills in Melbourne for those in AUS) Probably > the best value for money book on EFI. The book has snippets of > everything - If it had detail on all the subjects it mentioned it would > be the definitive reference. The Audience is intended as street > rodders mainly, but there are good bits and peices for the DIY_EFI'er - > Reccomended reading. [snip] I just subscribed to the mailing list. I have also bought a number of books related to EFI. The Hartman book has a curious statement on page 146 related to setting up the fuel map on the DFI controller: "The thing to understand its (sic) that to tune the DFI, you must set base pulse width for speed and loading breakpoints in the base fuel matrix of 272 numbers. You change breakpoints by running in edit mode and literally typing in new numbers. For some reason, possibly to do with avoiding floating point math in the 68HC11 microprocessor, the numbers in the matrix are not pulse width, but rather pulse width divided by 0.0627" Does he know he has a clock driving the pulse width timer? I enjoyed the book, and the author has ALOT more hands on experience than I, but that statement I found interesting.... Scot Sealander FIScot@aol.com or sealand@nc5.infi.net  From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 14:25:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02439; Tue, 21 Mar 95 14:25:09 GMT Received: from spbted.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02434; Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:25:06 -0500 Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA2236; Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:29:18 -0800 Message-Id: <9503211729.AA2236@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:27:48 EST From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Ahh, so the ALDL _output_ line is bidirectional? The info I have said that > there was an input/output protocol, but wasn't really clear about which > line was the input. The impression I got was that the Diag input was > also the ALDL serial input. The ALDL for the new generation f-bodies is bidirectional. Hypertech makes a programmer that plugs into the ALDL, downloads the stock program and uploads a "performance" program. You can go back to stock anytime. -tim From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 16:01:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03234; Tue, 21 Mar 95 16:01:49 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03229; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:01:44 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167282-1>; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:03:09 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29110; Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:56:36 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029108; Tue Mar 21 10:56:15 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07622; Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:42:58 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA08497; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:01:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:01:13 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9503211601.AA08497@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Who's Heywood ? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Heywood costs around $115 from Motorbooks. Just thought I might save a few coronaries. :) Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 16:02:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03241; Tue, 21 Mar 95 16:02:39 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03236; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:02:34 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA02216 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:02:26 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA08983; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:01:44 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA271241958; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:05:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:52:22 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Bosch booklets To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Steve Baldwin wrote: >Bosch >also have a series of booklets on a variety of subjects, some of which >look interesting. Does anybody have any experience of these ? Are they >up to the same standard as the handbook ? I have read several of these booklets. They are up to the same standards as the handbooks, mainly because they seem to be largely cribbed from the handbooks. Having everything is nice but not really necessary if you already have the red and blue handbooks. --------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions expressed above are mine, not my employer's. --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 16:20:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03401; Tue, 21 Mar 95 16:20:41 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03396; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:20:38 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rr6fZ-000vI1C; Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:20 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rr6fW-000uNEC; Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:20 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:20:29 CST Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:18:42 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Re: Who's Heywood ? To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Wrote: | | | Heywood costs around $115 from Motorbooks. | | Just thought I might save a few coronaries. :) | I called around some bookstores here in Houston, and found it for $70-$80. Check around. Haven't actually bought it yet......... --steve From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 18:00:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04055; Tue, 21 Mar 95 18:00:45 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04050; Tue, 21 Mar 95 13:00:40 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id KAA04513 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:00:37 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 9:04:33 UTC-0800 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 9:04:33 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950321090433] Content-Identifier: 2558 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503211729.AA2236@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Message-Id: <"2558*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: ALDL Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi All, I've collected everything I've found on ALDL from usenet over the years and I've tacked it onto the bottom of this message. While the low-level hardware communication protocol is fairly standard, it appears that the data sent varies from car to car. One can probably reverse engineer the data stream for any particular vehicle with a bit of time and disassembly. The basic packet format has been figured out (see below) so it would be a matter of fiddling with a sensor and watching to see which field changes. I would have done this by now but I only own crappy German cars :-) --rod. ps. This would be a good FAQ if someone was interested in the subject. From ubc-cs!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!psuvax1!hsdndev!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ispd-newsserver!psinntp!bnlux1.bnl.gov!news Mon Jan 6 11:05:30 PST 1992 Article: 30421 of rec.autos.tech Path: ubc-cs!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!psuvax1!hsdndev!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ispd-newsserver!psinntp!bnlux1.bnl.gov!news From: polychron@bnldag.ags.bnl.gov (Ven Polychronakos) Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Subject: Re: GM's ALDL info Message-ID: <1992Jan5.200542.2617@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Date: 5 Jan 92 20:05:42 GMT Article-I.D.: bnlux1.1992Jan5.200542.2617 References: <1992Jan3.192410.12029@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1992Jan4.190655.26721@bnlux1.bnl.gov> <1992Jan5.084232.22926@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Sender: news@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Usenet news) Organization: BNL Lines: 60 In article <1992Jan5.084232.22926@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> orscholz@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Oliver Scholz) writes: >Here's what I know: > >The ALDL uses a TTL level output (1=H=5V, 0=L=0V) with 8192 Baud. >A word consists of 10 Bits, the startbit (L), 8 data bits (LSB first) and >one stop bit (H). The line is idle high. >The ECM sends packets that look like this: > >1 byte device code >1 byte: 85+N (N being the length of the data part of the packet) >N data bytes >1 byte checksum > >between two packets the line goes idle (H) for at least 10 bit times. > >Information still missing includes: A list of device codes, the interpretation >of the data bytes and how to compute the checksum (which I probably could >find out myself... I guess it's just adding up the data part of the package. > >So, once again, if anyone has any further information, please let me know >(or better yet, post to the net. I know a *bunch* of people is interested >in this!) > >-Oliver > > Thanks for posting this information. I had figured out (the hard way) the basic protocol but had (and still do) trouble interpreting what I was reading. At least now I can stop trying to decipher the checksums and device codes. So here is my minor, I'm afraid, contribution towards solving the puzzle. Below is a record of what the serial link on my '88 Celebrity (2.8L, v6,VIN W engine) tells me. Car at "PARK", engine idling. All digits hexadecimal. 0A 58 00 03 53 48 0A 58 00 03 61 3A 0A 58 00 03 6A 31 05 5F 00 00 00 3C 8C 39 62 01 EC 72 DA 0A 58 00 03 69 32 F0 55 BB The first line, for example, shows device code 0A (10 Decimal), 3bytes of data (58 hex=88 decimal, therefore 88-85=3), then the three bytes of data follow and ,finally, the checksum byte 48. By the way these three bytes are zero when ignition is ON but engine not running.This device code seems to be repeated 3 more times in the same record!? The device code 05 gives 10 bytes of data from which the only one I was able to figure out is the fifth one (8C= 140) which looks like the battery voltage, 14.0 V, when interpreted as tens of millivolts. When engine is not running it becomes about 12.0 V.Finally the device code F0 has zero data(55) and seems to be some sort of end-of-record marker (BB by the way is the checksum of F0 and 55). The checksum byte is the two's complement of the 8-bit sum of all bytes in a given packet (except the checksum itself) not only the data part. In plain english if you sum all bytes now including the checksum the eight least significant bits of this sum should be all zero. If anyone has more information on the contents of these packets, I would appreciate hearing it. Thanks in advance, Ven. From ubc-cs!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!orscholz Mon Jan 6 11:05:45 PST 1992 Article: 30417 of rec.autos.tech Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Path: ubc-cs!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!orscholz From: orscholz@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Oliver Scholz) Subject: Re: GM's ALDL info Message-ID: <1992Jan5.084232.22926@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany References: <1992Jan3.192410.12029@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1992Jan4.190655.26721@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1992 08:42:32 GMT Lines: 33 Ven Polychronakos writes: >Could you post a summary of the replies you got? >Thanks, Ven Considering the interest in the information, it think a summary is justified. Here's what I know: The ALDL uses a TTL level output (1=H=5V, 0=L=0V) with 8192 Baud. A word consists of 10 Bits, the startbit (L), 8 data bits (LSB first) and one stop bit (H). The line is idle high. The ECM sends packets that look like this: 1 byte device code 1 byte: 85+N (N being the length of the data part of the packet) N data bytes 1 byte checksum between two packets the line goes idle (H) for at least 10 bit times. Information still missing includes: A list of device codes, the interpretation of the data bytes and how to compute the checksum (which I probably could find out myself... I guess it's just adding up the data part of the package. So, once again, if anyone has any further information, please let me know (or better yet, post to the net. I know a *bunch* of people is interested in this!) -Oliver From ubc-cs!uw-beaver!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uunet!sun-barr!olivea!mintaka.lcs.mit.edu!hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky Mon Jan 6 11:07:17 PST 1992 Article: 30434 of rec.autos.tech Path: ubc-cs!uw-beaver!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uunet!sun-barr!olivea!mintaka.lcs.mit.edu!hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky From: lusky@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Subject: Re: GM's ALDL info Message-ID: <1992Jan6.073457.28814@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> Date: 6 Jan 92 07:34:57 GMT References: <1992Jan4.190655.26721@bnlux1.bnl.gov> <1992Jan5.084232.22926@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1992Jan5.200542.2617@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Sender: news@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu Organization: ^ Lines: 22 In article <1992Jan5.200542.2617@bnlux1.bnl.gov> polychron@bnldag.ags.bnl.gov (Ven Polychronakos) writes: >Thanks for posting this information. I had figured out (the hard way) >the basic protocol but had (and still do) trouble interpreting what >I was reading. At least now I can stop trying to decipher the checksums >and device codes. So here is my minor, I'm afraid, contribution >towards solving the puzzle. Below is a record of what the serial link >on my '88 Celebrity (2.8L, v6,VIN W engine) tells me. Car at "PARK", >engine idling. All digits hexadecimal. Other values that the ECM sends back include manifold air temp and pressure, spark advance, rpm, throttle position, as well as several fuel injection related numbers (block learn multiplier is the only one that comes tomind at the moment). You might try finding someone with some type of scan tool so you know what values you are looking for. RPM, TPS, and MAP you should be able to pick out pretty easy. RPM will vary with rpm, TPS will vary with throttle position (even when engine isnot running), MAP will vary with vacuum (even when engine is not running... get an "assistant" to suck on a vacuum line connected to the MAPsensor while you sample packets). Jon Lusky lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu > From ubc-cs!alberta!aunro!lll-winken!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!orscholz Mon Jan 6 11:07:49 PST 1992 Article: 30436 of rec.autos.tech Path: ubc-cs!alberta!aunro!lll-winken!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!orscholz From: orscholz@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Oliver Scholz) Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Subject: Re: GM's ALDL info Message-ID: <1992Jan6.081558.9803@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: 6 Jan 92 08:15:58 GMT References: <1992Jan3.192410.12029@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1992Jan4.190655.26721@bnlux1.bnl.gov> <1992Jan5.084232.22926@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1992Jan5.200542.2617@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany Lines: 39 polychron@bnldag.ags.bnl.gov (Ven Polychronakos) writes: >0A 58 00 03 53 48 >0A 58 00 03 61 3A >0A 58 00 03 6A 31 >05 5F 00 00 00 3C 8C 39 62 01 EC 72 DA >0A 58 00 03 69 32 >F0 55 BB My guess would be that device code 0A is the engine RPM: in your example: 851, 865, 874 and 873. Could you verify that? >of data follow and ,finally, the checksum byte 48. By the way these >three bytes are zero when ignition is ON but engine not running.This Because the rpm is 0 ? >device code seems to be repeated 3 more times in the same record!? Because it's changing constantly ? >The device code 05 gives 10 bytes of data from which the only one >I was able to figure out is the fifth one (8C= 140) which looks like >the battery voltage, 14.0 V, when interpreted as tens of millivolts. Makes sense. That would be the sensory readings of A/D converters of some kind. The leading zeroes could be non-installed sensors, unused or reserved... Thanks for posting that information, I think it helped a lot! You might try disconnecting different sensors (Start with the TPS) and see which byte becomes zero (Or $FF). Try to force a trouble code (by disconnecting that sensor). Maybe the last packet is not the "End of Record" (which would be useless) but the stored trouble codes? (in your case: none) ?? Just a (more or less good) guess... -Oliver From mpitts@vnet.ibm.com Wed Jul 27 20:24:13 PDT 1994 Article: 12122 of comp.robotics Path: cs.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!juniper.almaden.ibm.com!ibmboulder!ibmboulder!usenet From: mpitts@vnet.ibm.com Newsgroups: comp.robotics Subject: Read non-standard serial data via parallel port Date: 27 Jul 1994 15:23:53 GMT Organization: IBM Boulder Lines: 42 Message-ID: <315u69INNim1@afshub.boulder.ibm.com> Reply-To: mpitts@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: mcp7059.bocaraton.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00 I'm looking for some advice on how to read some non-standard serial data from an automotive ECM. I have the necessary cable rigged up already to get the data into the parallel port. I've taken some samples of the data and here's what I've seen: -- - --- - --- -- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ----- -- -- --------------- - --- -------------- 1300 # 1300 # |<-- 300 # --->| |<-- 300 # --->| The numbers represent the number of times I was able to perform a loop in the polling program. I'm assuming the 1300# states are interbyte spacings and the 300# areas are the actual bytes. The smallest count between transitions was was ~30#, which would indicate my bytes are 10 bits long (start and stop bit perhaps). I know I can read the data stream with polling loops, but would like my routines to be CPU independent. The data comes in on the -ACK line of the port, so I can use an ISR if necessary. Anybody have any hints/clues, or better yet, code snippets. Thanks, Mike Pitts mpitts@vnet.ibm.com Software Engineer (407) 443-8941 IBM Wireless Data Division Boca Raton, FL From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 18:44:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04242; Tue, 21 Mar 95 18:44:26 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04237; Tue, 21 Mar 95 13:44:22 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA08513 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:44:09 MST Received: from emailchd by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA13145; Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:44:05 MST Received: by wdc.sps.mot.com (4.1/WDC-1.02) Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:43:57 MST Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:43:57 MST From: Mark Shaw Message-Id: <9503211843.AA06808@wdc.sps.mot.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Who's Heywood ? and other Books Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Steve Baldwin writes, > I've seen a few references to 'Heywood' in recent posts. > Can somebody give me some more information (ISBN, $$$$, etc). > > I recently got the Bosch Handbook mentioned here and it is excellent. > Even the wife was impressed. I have the red book on order as well. Bosch > also have a series of booklets on a variety of subjects, some of which > look interesting. Does anybody have any experience of these ? Are they > up to the same standard as the handbook ? Here's a short list of some of the references that I would suggest: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Adler et al, "Automotive Electric/Electronic Systems", Robert Bosch GmbH, Stuttgart, Germany, ISBN 0-89883-509-7, 1988. This is the "red" handbook. Covers all forms of automotive systems. Good general reading with excellent coverage of basic functions like starters, alternators, ignition, sparkplugs. Covers some detail of Bosch's fuel injection systems. Available from the SAE on sale for $19 (order B-528). Adler et al, "Automotive Handbook, 3rd Edition", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0330-7, 1993. This is the "blue" handbook which used to be pocket size. Covers all forms of automotive design and systems. Good reference source, but expressed in metric. Has conversion tables. Covers materials well. Some data on emissions (478-489) similar to 2nd Edition. Also has data on some of the representative automobiles from various world companies in back section. Available from the SAE for $29 (order BOSCH3). Price for SAE members is $23. Heywood, J.B., "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", McGraw-Hill, USA, ISBN 0-07-028637-x, 1988. College text on IC engine design and theory. General reference on engine topics. Also contains many references to other works. Available from the SAE for $69 (order B-526). Lenz, D.H.P., "Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignition Engines", SAE, Warrendale, PA, ISBN 1-56091-188-3, 1992. Excellent text on carbureation, combustion and fuel infection concepts. Some important data on emissions (70-74, 249-251) with description of trends over years. This book also published by Springer-Verlag/Wien, NY, who translated it from German (Lenz, Gemischbildung bei Ottomotoren) in 1990. Available from SAE on sale for $55 (order R-113). Price for SAE members is $45. I actually bought a copy for $39 at the SAE Congress last month. Probst, C.O., "Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0300-5, 1989. Covers most of the Bosch systems from D-Jetronic through Motronic. Covers variety of vehicles. Has good section in begining on combustion and emissions information, but a better description is in other BOSCH texts and sources. Available from the SAE on sale for $19 (order B-557). Probst, C.O., "How to Understand, Service and Modify Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0301-3, 1993. Covers basic engine control theory and Ford systems to 1988. Excellent book on topic. Similar to author's other work on Bosch systems. Available from SAE for $30 (order B-584). Watson, B., "How to Tune and Modify Bosch Fuel Injection", Motorbooks International, Osceola, WI, ISBN 0-87938-570-7, 1992. Covers most of the Bosch systems from D-Jetronic through LH-Jetronic. Mainly aimed at VW. Has good section in begining on testing electronic components. Minimal amount of emissions information - better description is in other BOSCH texts and sources. Cost $19.95 in 1994. As you can see the best source is the SAE. They ship free of charge if you pre-pay your order (check with mail-in order, or credit card by phone to 412-776-4970). Also ask for their free catalog of technical publications. There are some other books that look interesting, but some are just variations of the above items. SAE does have a policy of allowing returns if you are dissatisfied with the item. I returned two books which didn't look as good as Heywood's work. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bosch Technical Instruction booklets are generally a larger format of the information in their handbooks (blue and red). They are generally available from some mail order houses that deal in Bosch parts and cost up to $12 each. The handbooks are a better value. "Emission Control for Spark-Ignition Engines", "Bosch Technical Instruction", Robert Bosch, Stuttgart, Germany, 1985. Covers basics of emissions, EGR, and catalytic converters. Also briefly covers K-Jetronic, KE-Jetronic, L-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, Mono-Jetronic, and Motronic systems. Sections on other measures, testing and regulations. Adler, U., "Battery Ignition Systems", "Bosch Technical Instruction", Robert Bosch, Stuttgart, Germany, 1971. Covers the basics of ignition systems in basic breaker systems and simple electronic versions. Good general data on spark requirements. Adler, U., "Electronic Battery-Ignition Systems", "Bosch Technical Instruction", Robert Bosch, Stuttgart, Germany, 1976. Covers more advanced electronic ignition systems. Good general data on spark requirements. Adler, U., "Mechanical Gasoline Fuel-Injection System with Lambda Closed-Loop Control, K-Jetronic", "Bosch Technical Instruction", Robert Bosch, Stuttgart, Germany, 1981. Covers basics of closed-loop version of K-Jetronic CIS. Some information on emissions and catalytic converters. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hope this helps. From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 22 16:54:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09892; Wed, 22 Mar 95 16:54:26 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09885; Wed, 22 Mar 95 11:54:02 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA01962; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 10:53:58 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA18512; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 10:53:56 -0600 Message-Id: <9503221653.AA18512@star.cca.rockwell.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:04:33 PST." <"2558*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 10:53:49 -0600 From: sdbartho@cca.rockwell.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > ps. This would be a good FAQ if someone was interested in the subject. > I was thinking the same thing. Anybody want to start one? :) > > > >The ALDL uses a TTL level output (1=H=5V, 0=L=0V) with 8192 Baud. > >A word consists of 10 Bits, the startbit (L), 8 data bits (LSB first) and > >one stop bit (H). The line is idle high. > >The ECM sends packets that look like this: > > > >1 byte device code > >1 byte: 85+N (N being the length of the data part of the packet) > >N data bytes > >1 byte checksum > > > >between two packets the line goes idle (H) for at least 10 bit times. This is a little misleading, from what I've seen on the 8192 format. It may be correct for the ALDL data output in 10k mode. It should read: 1 Byte message ID 1 Byte Length (85 + 1 + N - The next byte counts too!) 1 Byte Mode Specifier ( Usually ranges from 0 to 7) Data bytes 1 Byte checksum (two's complement of sum of the previous bytes) > >Information still missing includes: A list of device codes, This is defined in the Cal section of the PROM, and can be anything from 0-255. The ones I've seen seem to like to use 0xF0, and it normally will be the same as the value of the heartbeat sent out in normal mode. > the interpretation > >of the data bytes and how to compute the checksum (which I probably could > >find out myself... I guess it's just adding up the data part of the package. See above. Knowing the proper mode ID's to send helps a bunch, too. Anybody know of a good 5v to 232 converter with tri-state outputs? I've been looking at the MAX 242, but I need to be able to ts two channels independantly, and I only need two channels. I could always add an analog switch, but I'd like to stay with a one-chip solution. Dig sdbartho@hwking.cca.rockwell.com From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 22 17:23:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10098; Wed, 22 Mar 95 17:23:30 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10092; Wed, 22 Mar 95 12:23:23 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id JAA29874 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:23:21 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 9:23:19 UTC-0800 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 9:23:19 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950322092319] Content-Identifier: 2561 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503221653.AA18512@star.cca.rockwell.com> Message-Id: <"2561*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: ALDL Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > ps. This would be a good FAQ if someone was interested in the subject. > > > > > I was thinking the same thing. Anybody want to start one? :) You just volunteered :-). -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 23 12:30:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24976; Thu, 23 Mar 95 12:30:51 GMT Received: from kaiwan.kaiwan.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24971; Thu, 23 Mar 95 07:30:48 -0500 Received: from kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (389@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com [198.178.203.9]) by kaiwan.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id EAA22008 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 04:30:42 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Received: (from douglas@localhost) by kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id EAA01890; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 04:30:44 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 04:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: Black Feather Electronics To: DIY_EFI Subject: Get a Peek at the U-HC11 Board Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI If you want to get a peek at the U-HC11 Microcontroller Board, the photo is now available on our www site: (I just put the gif on) http://www.kaiwan.com/~douglas -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Black Feather Electronics | Home of the U-HC11 Microcontroller 645 Temple 7B | Boards, Kits and other 68HC11 stuff Long Beach California 90814 | Email for info or visit the www page Info & Orders: (800) 526-3717 InterNet: BFE Tech Support: (310) 434-5641 Web: "http://www.kaiwan.com/~douglas" Fax: (310) 434-9142 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 23 17:54:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26289; Thu, 23 Mar 95 17:54:57 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26283; Thu, 23 Mar 95 12:54:41 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id JAA25369 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:54:38 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 9:54:37 UTC-0800 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 9:54:37 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950323095437] Content-Identifier: 2567 From: Rod Barman To: diy_efi Message-Id: <"2567*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Ion Gap Sense Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Can any of you GM guys tell me where the capacitor goes in figure 8 in John Auzin et al's paper from SAE '95? I'm guessing between the sense amp and the coil with a zener across it to limit the charge to 100V? Is this correct? Aswell, any more info about high tension measurements? How this would be done without frying everything in sight? This ion gap stuff sure looks good. I actually think it could be easier to do this (for us engineers/computer scientists) than it is to run all the sensors when retrofitting efi onto an old car. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 23 20:10:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26816; Thu, 23 Mar 95 20:10:28 GMT Received: from access1.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26811; Thu, 23 Mar 95 15:10:25 -0500 Received: by access1.digex.net id AA21621 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:10:20 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503232010.AA21621@access1.digex.net> Subject: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:10:20 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Black Feather Electronics" at Mar 23, 95 04:30:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 216 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone know how to figure out the correct charge time for a given ignition coil? Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or longer? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 23 22:43:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28223; Thu, 23 Mar 95 22:43:07 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28218; Thu, 23 Mar 95 17:43:01 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA18597 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:42:53 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA04624; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:42:09 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA189308755; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:45:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 16:58:41 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis wrote: >Does anyone know how to figure out the correct charge time for a given >ignition coil? > >Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or longer? I'm not sure what you mean by "until the current saturates", but I'll give a shot at a quick-and-dirty answer anyways. 1) Don't use so much charge time that the coil overheats and melts. 2) Don't exceed any other physical or electricals limit to the coil or drive circuit. 3) Use as much charge time as you can so you can build maximum current in the coil, so long as you don't run into problems with 1) or 2). Assuming a coil of reasonably low resistance, your current will build linearly with time. Energy stored in the coil is a function of the current squared. The more energy the merrier (pretty much). At some point you will saturate the ferrous core of the coil so that higher currents will not actually store more energy. I don't know that you really need to care about this (for backyard-mechanic purposes) as long as you aren't burning anything up. Ignition drives that have a current-limiting feature should not stay in the "limiting" condition very long. That's when power dissipation in the drive transistor reaches a maximum. The transistor really wants to be fully on or fully off to run cool. If there is no current limiting circuitry, any coil will eventually max out on current (the maximum level being a simple function of the voltage drop across the coil and the coil's resistance). Perhaps this is what you mean by "current saturation". There's no point in turning the coil on longer than it takes for this to happen, because no additional energy will be stored. Your coil and/or drive circuitry probably couldn't take it for long anyways. Ultimately, the "correct charge time" is the amount of time needed to charge the coil so that sufficient energy gets delivered to the spark gap to ensure reliable ignition. If you know the inductance and resistance of the coil in question, and the source voltage, you can, of course, figure out how long it will take to charge it to a certain current level. Figuring out what that "correct" current level is can be a simple matter of trial and error with a running engine and the coil in question. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 23 23:19:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28329; Thu, 23 Mar 95 23:19:37 GMT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28324; Thu, 23 Mar 95 18:19:34 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyijd25756; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:19:31 -0500 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA02232; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:20:41 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002219; Thu Mar 23 17:19:50 1995 Received: from optilink.com (optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA07036 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:19:53 -0600 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.com with smtp id m0rrw97-0002M0C; Thu, 23 Mar 95 15:18 PST Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0rrw7s-002Oa1C; Thu, 23 Mar 95 15:17 PST From: "Frank_Marrone" Message-Id: <9503231517.ZM1640@montreal> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:17:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: Ed Lansinger "RE: Ignition coil charge time" (Mar 23, 4:58pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.1 23feb94) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI As Ed pointed out, once the inductor (coil) saturates, higher currents will not get you any additional energy (E = 1/2LI^2). It is good to store as much energy as you are able in your coil but you are limited by the time you have to store it and the current carrying capacity of your points/amplifier etc. Solid state amplifiers should be set to limit the coil current near or above the coil saturation point but below a destructive current level (for the primary circuit). -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 02:21:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28637; Fri, 24 Mar 95 02:21:19 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28632; Thu, 23 Mar 95 21:21:12 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA08365 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:21:06 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA02899 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:18:26 +1100 Message-Id: <199503240218.NAA02899@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:18:24 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Mar 23, 95 04:58:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3507 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi guys, this morning as I drove in to Uni, I was playing around with the coil charge time in an attempt to solve some wierd noise problems that I have been having. I logged in, read my mail and you guessed it - coil charge time is the current topic of discussion. > Bill Lewis wrote: > >Does anyone know how to figure out the correct charge time for a given > >ignition coil? > > > >Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or longer? and Ed replied, > > 1) Don't use so much charge time that the coil overheats and melts. > > 2) Don't exceed any other physical or electricals limit to the coil or drive circuit. > > 3) Use as much charge time as you can so you can build maximum current in the coil, so > long as you don't run into problems with 1) or 2). > From my experience, running coils without ballast resistors can easily lead to destructive ends if simple precautions aren't met. Electronic control means that we can charge coils in very little time and yet maintain current limits. Coils can prematurely degrade quite gradually if they are overstressed. The user may not notice the subtle changes in drivelability and power. If possible, keep an eye on the coil temperature and any sounds it may be making (internal arcing). DO NOT run the coils with the secondary side disconnected. Recently, we had a customer bring in a Delco coil that had decided to split apart, probably after testing without the plugs connected. It was only a few hours old. The dead coil had then cooked the ignition amp (and two spares). Other failures have only shown up at high engine loads or after running on the bench for a few hours. I use an adjustable charge time of 1.0 to 5.0 mS. Various coils prefer more or less charge time but as a rough guide I start from a small value and increase until there is no noticeable change in idle speed stability. The coils then require at least 1.0 mS to discharge, but this is only an issue at high speeds on single coil distributor systems. One of the problems of high energy ignition conversions is crossfiring in the distributor. My 1974 build dizzy has a much smaller diameter than current model electronic ignition triggered units and will fire the wrong cylinders indescriminately if there is the slightest hint of moisture inside. > ...... There's no > point in turning the coil on longer than it takes for this to happen, because no > additional energy will be stored. There is one small point to add here. As the engine accelerates the, start of coil charge time has to be brought forward from the time that would have been calculated on the previous firing. This calculation can be avoided if an extra amount of coil charge time is added above that which is required for peak current during steady state operation. In my application, I manage to solve this problem by starting the coil charge time a minimum of 30 deg before firing if it has not already started charging. > Ed Lansinger I hope this spreads some light. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 02:38:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28670; Fri, 24 Mar 95 02:38:09 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28665; Thu, 23 Mar 95 21:38:03 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA08814 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:37:57 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA02916 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:35:18 +1100 Message-Id: <199503240235.NAA02916@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Ion Gap Sense Questions To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:35:17 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <"2567*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> from "Rod Barman" at Mar 23, 95 09:54:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1967 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Rod asks > Can any of you GM guys tell me where the capacitor goes in figure > 8 in John Auzin et al's paper from SAE '95? I'm guessing between the > sense amp and the coil with a zener across it to limit the charge > to 100V? Is this correct? This is a very interesting point. I would guess that the capacitor sits in series with the secondary circuit between the current sense resistor and the secondary coil, with a clamp zener in parallel. > > Aswell, any more info about high tension measurements? How this > would be done without frying everything in sight? > Inductive pickups? Standard part for many oscilliscopes. > This ion gap stuff sure looks good. I actually think it could be easier > to do this (for us engineers/computer scientists) than it is to > run all the sensors when retrofitting efi onto an old car. Yes I agree. It would be a bit easier than trying to retrofit a knock sensor either to the block or under the spark plug. (The sensor itself is not the problem here but the associated signal processing and circuitry.) Note that in a similar paper by researchers at Chrysler (SAE 950003), they were able to process the signal with a simple integrator feeding into one of the A/D ports on a HC11. Misfire detection (in this case) was a trivial task of reading the port and comparing the digital input to a threshold near zero. > > --rod. > Robert 'it looks like it's time to convert to multiple coils' Dingli PS The system won't work with leaded fuels. :-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 06:27:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05397; Fri, 24 Mar 95 06:27:21 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05392; Fri, 24 Mar 95 01:27:18 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-135.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 95 00:25:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 00:25:14 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <19401.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Dudes, Several of you have written useful comments in response Bill Lewis's questions. There is what I thought was an *excellent* reference that has not yet been mentioned. It is "HEI-A New Ignition System Through New Technology", by Huntzinger and Rigsby, SAE paper # 750346 (Transactions, Vol 84, 1975). It covers the charge time question as well at their solution. If you've not yet read the paper, it describes some really clever innovations: adjustable dwell depending on how near saturation, a 5.5 amp limit in the driver so you could have a low resistance for fast saturation times at high speeds, but that wouldn't fry at low speeds. It is a little old, but development hasn't gone much beyond that lately. I think that comes from a time when OEM's could afford to be much more open in talking about what they were doing. I agree with Robert that 30 degrees of dwell seems to work well. I used that as a constant in a 3.1 liter GM V-6 lab engine (back in '91) that ran between 1000 and 3500 rpm with TTL square wave fired HEI coil drivers and the original distributorless coils (DIS). The TTL common was hooked up to the white wire (N terminal) while the TTL signal entered through the green wire (P terminal). The TTL square wave signal defeated the cool, automatically adjustable dwell feature, but it gave my very precice control over the on time and off time (FIRE!) of the coil current. The HEI driver limits the max current to 5.5 amps while the DIS coils originally required 10 amps. I left room to use two HEI drivers in parallel to give near the required amps, but I had no misfire problems at the conditions I was running, so I left it at one per coil. This was for a 486-PC-based knock testing system that randomized the ignition timing for each cylinder individually within limits (say 20 to 40 degrees or so). The PC would also read the knock sensor for a window starting around TDC for each individual cylinder to about 40 degrees after TDC for the respective cylinder. The resulting knock intensity vs. spark timing plot for each cylinder helped in determing the effect of different fuels on octane requirement change. I don't think Chevron Chemical is using it now, as the knock sensor signal was a little too vague, and not equally affected by all cylinders. Calibration based on each cylinder didn't seem to help either. Sorry to ramble on so much, but it was an exciting system to work on, and it brought back good memories. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 13:46:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05835; Fri, 24 Mar 95 13:46:47 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05830; Fri, 24 Mar 95 08:46:34 -0500 Received: from pm1_29.magicnet.net (pm1_29.magicnet.net [204.96.116.79]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA04155; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:47:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199503241347.IAA04155@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:30:05 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: RE: Ignition coil charge time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 04:58 PM 3/23/95 EST, DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >Bill Lewis wrote: > >>Does anyone know how to figure out the correct charge time for a given >>ignition coil? >> >>Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or longer? > The answer for your coil can be found by trial and error. Build a variable width pulse generator and fire it into your coil. You will get a waveform as below on the primary. | ---| | | | | | |_____|-----| A B C D A is the before switch on time B is the driver transistor switched on but not drawing a lot of current so it is not saturated C is the coil saturated and the transistor drawing full current so the slight drop in voltage across the coil is from the Vce sat of the transistor D is the switch off of the transistor and the coil voltage decaying to start generating back EMF You should size your transistor to be able to drive the coil continuously at DC and have a Vce big enough to cover the back EMF. I use 450v 10amp devices and never have failures. The minimum pulse width for the full spark is B-C and remains a constant for that coil. C-D is overkill as the coil is magnetically saturated and no more energy will go into it. Peter From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 14:15:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05885; Fri, 24 Mar 95 14:15:18 GMT Received: from access2.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05880; Fri, 24 Mar 95 09:15:16 -0500 Received: by access2.digex.net id AA18750 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:15:10 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503241415.AA18750@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:15:09 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19401.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 24, 95 00:25:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1432 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The whole idea of dwell stems from the fact that the mechanical distributor can't provide the correct coil charge time at all engine speeds. I decided I could do better by programming in a charge 'time' rather than a dwell angle. Some years back, I experimented with a micro hooked to the HEI on a Chevy V8. I took the input from the Hall sensor in the distributor, and triggered a counter that waited until the coil-on point. The output from that first timer triggered a second counter that waited until the coil-off (firing) point. When I was first testing the hardware and the code in the basement with a 555 simulating the pulses from the engine, I had to come up with a constant to load into the dwell time counter. I didn't feel like figuring out the correct time, so I picked a number of of thin air and plugged it in. Several days later I found myself outside with a battery charger hooked to the car wondering why the damn thing wouldn't start. It acted like it wanted to, and the timing light indicated I had spark at the right spot. The punchline - the coil-on time wasn't enough to properly charge the coil to get a good spark. Again without thinking, I doubled the constant in the timer and it ran great. This time I'm planning to run a test circuit on the bench with my new coils and watch the current ramp up on the oscope to determine the saturation point. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 14:59:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05938; Fri, 24 Mar 95 14:59:50 GMT Received: from spbted.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05933; Fri, 24 Mar 95 09:59:48 -0500 Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA4067; Fri, 24 Mar 95 10:04:24 -0800 Message-Id: <9503241804.AA4067@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 10:02:37 EST From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > yet read the paper, it describes some really clever innovations: > adjustable dwell depending on how near saturation, a 5.5 amp limit in > the driver so you could have a low resistance for fast saturation times at > high speeds, but that wouldn't fry at low speeds. Dynamic-adjustable dwell can be done using Motorola's MC3334 ignition controller chip. Its an 8-pin DIP that uses a sensing capacitor to determine if the coil was completely charged for the last spark. It adjusts the dwell for the next spark accordingly. -tim From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 16:11:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06250; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:11:28 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06245; Fri, 24 Mar 95 11:11:25 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-32.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 95 10:09:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 10:09:31 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <18531.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: RE: Ignition coil saturation time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:30:05 -0500, Mr. Wales wrote in reply to Mr. Lewis: >>>Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or .. >The answer for your coil can be found by trial and error. Build a variable .. > |_____|-----| >A B C D > >A is the before switch on time .. Yup, a great way to look at it. But another question is what voltage do you want to drive it at? The reason for the 5.5 amp current limit current in the HEI was so you could ramp up to saturation *fast* with 12+ volts directly from a battery and *low* primary resistance but not fry it. This let the *high* inductance coil still keep a short time constant for charging -- oops! make that saturating. I have to keep remimding myself that capacitors charge, but coils saturate. I'm only an ME not an EE. Does anyone remember the amps vs. time equation for an L-R coil load? This would help the thinking on the tradeoff between coil *energy* (as others previously posted) and rise time for the current till saturation. Isn't it something like I = V / R *(1-e^-((L/(R*t))) ? I think it is the Huntzinger SAE paper (750346). Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 16:35:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06484; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:35:31 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06479; Fri, 24 Mar 95 11:35:28 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id IAA19795 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:35:27 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 8:35:25 UTC-0800 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 8:35:25 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950324083525] Content-Identifier: 2578 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503240235.NAA02916@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Message-Id: <"2578*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Ion Gap Sense Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >Rod asks > >This is a very interesting point. I would guess that the capacitor sits >in series with the secondary circuit between the current sense resistor >and the secondary coil, with a clamp zener in parallel. This is my guess too. Pretty clever setup. >> Aswell, any more info about high tension measurements? How this >> would be done without frying everything in sight? >> > >Inductive pickups? Standard part for many oscilliscopes. Hmmm .... I think you'd want a Hall effect sensor here for measuring currents at both low and high frequency. I'm not sure that would work too well either. In addition, the bias voltage still has to be injected somehow. The reason I'm interested in high tension measurement is that it would make putting the system on an engine with a distributor-based ignition system possible. >Note that in a similar paper by researchers at Chrysler (SAE 950003), they >were able to process the signal with a simple integrator feeding into one >of the A/D ports on a HC11. Misfire detection (in this case) was a trivial >task of reading the port and comparing the digital input to a threshold >near zero. I saw this too and it looked simple but effective. >Robert 'it looks like it's time to convert to multiple coils' Dingli Any suggestions on what's a suitable available coil for this? -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 18:16:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07967; Fri, 24 Mar 95 18:16:14 GMT Received: from hac2arpa.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07962; Fri, 24 Mar 95 13:16:08 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by hac2arpa.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09415; Fri, 24 Mar 95 10:15:32 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HOIE2VAPJ400QEU6@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22361; Fri, 24 Mar 95 13:14:30 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950324131038.288; 24 Mar 95 13:12:57 +0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:10:07 ET From: John T Stein Subject: RE: Ignition coil saturation time To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Matt; If you model the ignition coil as a resistance "R" in series with the inducatnce "L", and drive it with a step voltage of "V", the resulting current will be: i(t) = {V/R}*{1-exp(-t*R/L)} The expression you poseted earlier had interchanged "R" and "L". John From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 18:37:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08054; Fri, 24 Mar 95 18:37:43 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08049; Fri, 24 Mar 95 13:37:39 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 95 12:36:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:36:06 -0600 (CST) From: Matthew L Franklin Subject: RE: Ignition coil saturation time To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 24 Mar 1995, John T Stein wrote: > > i(t) = {V/R}*{1-exp(-t*R/L)} > > The expression you poseted earlier had interchanged "R" and "L". > > John Thanks John. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 18:53:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08469; Fri, 24 Mar 95 18:53:22 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08464; Fri, 24 Mar 95 13:53:19 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA11820; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:53:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:53:17 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503241853.AA11820@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ion Gap Sense Questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Rod: > Can any of you GM guys tell me where the capacitor goes in figure > 8 in John Auzin et al's paper from SAE '95? I'm guessing between the > sense amp and the coil with a zener across it to limit the charge > to 100V? Is this correct? A friend of mine last week sent me a fax on, I think, something similar to that above. In the march issue of one of the high-performance NASCAR magazines (I do not remember which one, but I can find out) was an article written by David Vizard on how they simply hooked a capacitor to the secondary circuit (actually a commercial product) and did a bunch of dyno runs. The fax was very hard to read, but I can get more info from the person who sent it to me. - Bruce From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 21:01:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09539; Fri, 24 Mar 95 21:01:03 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09534; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:00:58 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA18021 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:00:51 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA14627; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:00:06 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA274269019; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:03:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 14:23:29 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: [voltage seen at the collector of the transistor] > | >---| | > | | > | | > |_____|-----| >A B C D > >A is the before switch on time >B is the driver transistor switched on but not drawing a lot of current so >it is not saturated >C is the coil saturated and the transistor drawing full current so the >slight drop in voltage across the coil is from the Vce sat of the transistor >D is the switch off of the transistor and the coil voltage decaying to start >generating back EMF > >You should size your transistor to be able to drive the coil continuously at >DC and have a Vce big enough to cover the back EMF. I use 450v 10amp devices >and never have failures. The minimum pulse width for the full spark is B-C >and remains a constant for that coil. C-D is overkill as the coil is >magnetically saturated and no more energy will go into it. Also, an apologetic ME stated that he keeps forgetting that "capacitors charge and coils saturate" (sorry, my mail program just swallowed the message so I don't remember who). Just to clarify (belabor?) a few points - 1. As Peter points out, leaving the transistor on for the period C-D is needless. This is because the coil current has built to a maximum I=E/R, where E is the voltage drop across the coil (Vbatt-Vce) and R is the resistance of the coil. Since I is at a maximum, you can't store any more energy in the coil. However, this is not because the coil is "magnetically saturated". More current may store more energy in the coil (i.e. if you went to a 16V battery). Or it may not. In fact, it may have already reached the point of maximum energy storage somewhere in A-B. The deciding factor is the composition, construction, and size of the core of the coil. The magnetic material in the coil core is what "saturates". Simply put, you cannot magnetize a piece of iron past a certain strength (magnetic flux density). Another way of looking at it is that the inductance L of an inductor with a ferro-magnetic core changes with the current flowing through it and eventually maxes out at high enough currents. 2. Holding past C is unnecessary. But you might reasonably want to stop before C if you have already built up enough energy in the coil to fire the spark reliably. This will keep temperatures down and reduce draw on the electrical system. It may also allow you to select a smaller and less expensive transistor. 3. With an ignition system that has a current-limiting feature, the point C on the graph actually corresponds to desaturation of the transistor by the control circuit for the purpose of reducing current flow. It's still pointless (and dramatically increases heat buildup in the transistor) to hold any longer. In this case, though, the current limit is not a function of E and R or any supposed "saturation" of the coil. I think the picture will look different than Peter suggests for a system that has no current limiting, as the transistor will go into saturation shortly after A and the voltage will rise only slowly after that as current continues to build, not abrubptly as the diagram suggests when current stops building (although the transition may still be discernable). Saturation of a transistor occurs with sufficient base current, not when the collector current stops rising. Maybe Peter's situation is different from what I have observed. 4. A nice way to measure things is to insert a .1 ohm (10W or better) resistor between ground and the emitter of your drive transistor. You could also insert the resistor between +12 and the hot terminal of the primary. Use a scope to watch the voltage drop across the resistor. The voltage drop is proportional to the current flow. With a .1 ohm resistor, just multiply the voltage seen on the scope by 10 and you'll know exactly how much current is flowing at any given time. You get nifty pictures like: _____ / ! / ! / ! / ! / ! / ! _____/ !_____ ^ ^ ^ coil peak spark fires begins current to charge If you measure the slope of the rising part you know how fast your coil is charging. If you know that N amps of current is required for reliable ignition, you can then figure out the correct charge time. This should be very close to the time predicted by the equation provided by Matt Franklin and John Stein (given that you know the inductance of the coil). Increasing the battery voltage will increase the charging rate and lower the required charge time. As Bill Lewis illustrated in his message, trial and error is frequently the best way of figuring how much coil current (and therefore charge time) you need. 5. As Peter points out, you will want to choose a transistor with a sufficiently high breakdown voltage (say, 450V). You will also want to protect your transistor from higher breakdown voltages by adding a beefy Zener, Transil, or other overvoltage-protection diode (say, 400V) between the collector and base so that if the primary side voltage gets too high current conducts through the Zener to the base of the transistor, turning it on and letting the coil energy dissipate with relative safety as heat through the body of the transistor. (Also add a 47ohm resistor between the base and emitter.) That's how you protect your transistors from running the coil with the plug wires disconnected. Some ignition drive transistors have this protection built in. If you've got enough heat sink area and you're within the Safe Operating Area of the transistor you can run like this for as long as you like. 6. "Saturation" simply means that you've reached a limit of some sort despite the continued application of a stimulus. It's not a term specific to inductors (or electronics, for that matter). ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 21:29:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09621; Fri, 24 Mar 95 21:29:21 GMT Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09616; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:29:15 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19921; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:22:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:22:05 -0700 (MST) From: Wayne Wolinski Subject: Ignition To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI With ignition coils being such a hot topic of late, I would like to mention that I once read an article about researchers who were using an alternating current excitation to the ignition coil. According to the article, the benefits were improved combustion, increased power, and decreased pollution! Any comments or experience?... W. Wolinski Northern Alta. Institute of Technology From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 22:00:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09774; Fri, 24 Mar 95 22:00:35 GMT Received: from decster.uta.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09769; Fri, 24 Mar 95 17:00:32 -0500 Received: (from csh5742@localhost) by decster.uta.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id QAA08301; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:00:30 -0600 From: HENRY CRAIG STEVEN Message-Id: <199503242200.QAA08301@decster.uta.edu> Subject: RE: Ignition coil saturation time To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:00:29 CST Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <18531.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu>; from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 24, 95 10:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The Question has been: > >>>Should you run the coil until the current saturates? Slightly less, or > .. > >The answer for your coil can be found by trial and error. Build a variable > .. > > |_____|-----| > >A B C D > > > >A is the before switch on time > .. > > > Does anyone remember the amps vs. time equation for an L-R coil load? This > would help the thinking on the tradeoff between coil *energy* (as others > previously posted) and rise time for the current till saturation. > > Isn't it something like I = V / R *(1-e^-((L/(R*t))) ? > The equation is i(t) = V/R [1-exp(-(R/L)t)] However, I may be just blowing in the breeze here, but if you want to quickly figure a proper charge time then draw a simple R-L circuit then find i(t) by arbitarily choosing the direction of the current around the loop and obtain an equation. Note that the current in the inductor at t=0 is ~0, since the current in the inductor cannot change from zero to some value instantaneously. Take the Laplace transform and use the initial condition i(0)=0, then take the inverse Laplace transform and you should get the eq.: i(t) = V/R[1-exp(-(R/L)t)] Ploting i(t) vs time will show the circuit reaches aproximatly 98% steady-state at 4 time-constants (4 tau), or aprox 92% at 3 tau. Therfore, IMHO I would look at the available charge-time for the smallest engine period (Max rpm), then select a proper time constant between 3-tau to 4-tau that does not exceed 4tau. That would be my $.02 if I had any. (money not sense, I mean cents). Craig Henry University of Texas @ Arlington Mechanical Engineering csh5742@decster.uta.edu From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 24 22:09:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09806; Fri, 24 Mar 95 22:09:35 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09801; Fri, 24 Mar 95 17:09:31 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rsHXt-000vIlC; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:09 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rsHXs-000uH4C; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:09 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:09:29 CST Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:03:58 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: A compleat diy-efi reference To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ok, folks, I have gone through the 80 or so messages that I saved in my mailbox, pulled out references to books, papers, software, and parts, and have collected them. It's not complete, since I didn't go through the archives (what are they up to now, a gigabyte or so? :-) Note that there are some holes, in some cases SAE paper numbers were listed with no titles or anything, in other cases SAE papers were talked about but no numbers were given. Help me fill these in if you can. Send any corrections to me or diy_efi, and I'll update the list. I'll also pull off interesting things I see here and add them. Enjoy.... --steve sravet@bangate.compaq.com ***** ATTACHMENT: c:\efi_ref.txt ***** A list of references on Engine Management ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Books ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Adler et al, "Automotive Electric/Electronic Systems", Robert Bosch GmbH, Stuttgart, Germany, ISBN 0-89883-509-7, 1988. This is the "red" handbook. Covers all forms of automotive systems. Good general reading with excellent coverage of basic functions like starters, alternators, ignition, sparkplugs. Covers some detail of Bosch's fuel injection systems. Available from the SAE on sale for $19 (order B-528). Adler et al, "Automotive Handbook, 3rd Edition", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0330-7, 1993. This is the "blue" handbook which used to be pocket size. Covers all forms of automotive design and systems. Good reference source, but expressed in metric. Has conversion tables. Covers materials well. Some data on emissions (478-489) similar to 2nd Edition. Also has data on some of the representative automobiles from various world companies in back section. Available from the SAE for $29 (order BOSCH3). Price for SAE members is $23. DaRosa -- Fundamentals of Energy Processes Very general, with an excellent chapter or two on combustion, and lots of other source of energy discussion. $60 Heywood, J.B., "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", McGraw-Hill, USA, ISBN 0-07-028637-x, 1988. College text on IC engine design and theory. General reference on engine topics. Also contains many references to other works. Available from the SAE for $69 (order B-526). Lenz, D.H.P., "Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignition Engines", SAE, Warrendale, PA, ISBN 1-56091-188-3, 1992. Excellent text on carbureation, combustion and fuel infection concepts. Some important data on emissions (70-74, 249-251) with description of trends over years. This book also published by Springer-Verlag/Wien, NY, who translated it from German (Lenz, Gemischbildung bei Ottomotoren) in 1990. Available from SAE on sale for $55 (order R-113). Price for SAE members is $45. I actually bought a copy for $39 at the SAE Congress last month. Probst, C.O., "Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0300-5, 1989. Covers most of the Bosch systems from D-Jetronic through Motronic. Covers variety of vehicles. Has good section in begining on combustion and emissions information, but a better description is in other BOSCH texts and sources. Available from the SAE on sale for $19 (order B-557). Jeff Hartman,"Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications" ISBN 0-87938-743-2 Publisher Motorbooks international, PO Box 1, Osceola, WI 54020 1-800-826-6600 (in the US), Reccomended Price $19.95 US. Probably the best value for money book on EFI. The book has snippets of everything - If it had detail on all the subjects it mentioned it would be the definitive reference. The Audience is intended as street rodders mainly, but there are good bits and peices for the DIY_EFI'er - Reccomended reading. Probst, C.O., "How to Understand, Service and Modify Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control", Robert Bentley, Cambridge, MA, ISBN 0-8376-0301-3, 1993. Covers basic engine control theory and Ford systems to 1988. Excellent book on topic. Similar to author's other work on Bosch systems. Available from SAE for $30 (order B-584). Watson, B., "How to Tune and Modify Bosch Fuel Injection", Motorbooks International, Osceola, WI, ISBN 0-87938-570-7, 1992. Covers most of the Bosch systems from D-Jetronic through LH-Jetronic. Mainly aimed at VW. Has good section in begining on testing electronic components. Minimal amount of emissions information - better description is in other BOSCH texts and sources. Cost $19.95 in 1994. Electronic controls and sensors: proceedings of the SAE International Congress and Exposition (1992: Detroit, MI). ISBN 1-56091-215-4. This book is 120 pages long. Unfortunately, I do not have it (yet) as it is in an ATT library in NJ whereas I'm in IL! If you choose to purchase it, the ISBN and title should be sufficient for a bookstore to track it down. I recall this book has some articles on nifty research done in universities in Europe on adaptive controls and some stuff on a truly exotic oxygen sensor which allows more than bang-bang control of the a/f mixture. Laser/Talon Tech Info Manual Call 1-800-626-1523 and ask for the 1990 Laser/Talon Tech Info Manual part number 81-699-9039. Shipping will probably be more than the cost of this ~200 page book. They take plastic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Papers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SAE (412)776-4970 SAE (412)776-0790 FAX 750346 -- HEI-A New Ignition System Through New Technology It covers the charge time question as well at their solution. If you've not yet read the paper, it describes some really clever innovations: adjustable dwell depending on how near saturation, a 5.5 amp limit in the driver so you could have a low resistance for fast saturation times at high speeds, but that wouldn't fry at low speeds. 790742 -- Readable paper on the Ford CFI 5.0L 1980 cars. It covers most of the 'twiddle factors' required to get the vehicle running properly. 800164 -- Covers GM TBI system. Easy reading. 810449 -- Mathematical Model of a Throttle Body Fuel Injection System Discusses effect of battery voltage on injectors and fuel pump pressure 810494 -- 810495 -- 880561 -- Frequency Domain Characterization of Mass Flow Sensors, by W. C. Follmer, 1988. 900616 -- Mean Value Modelling of Spark Ignition Engines, by Hendricks and Sorenson, 1990. 910258 -- Discusses modeling intake manifold and fuel film dynamics. 920289 Modeling, filtering, and closed loop control? 930856 -- Operating characteristics of Zirconia sensors. 940373 "Adaptive Air-Fuel Ratio Control of a Spark-Ignition Engine" 940379 -- Describes a new pressure sensor that they use for misfire detection, knock control, ignition control, etc. I have a feeling that you may be seeing these in pass. cars in the not too distant future. Still some signal processing circuitry required but the price has to be better than a PCB or Kistler unit. FISITA -- Adaptive Transient Air-Fuel Ratio Control to Minimize Gasoline Engine Emissions, by Beaumont, Noble, and Scarisbrick, 1992. -- Describes an experiment performed by the EPA wherein they discover that O2 sensors in fact do not sense O2 until they reach 800 degrees C. Until that point they measure H and CO. 910258, 930856, and 920289 are also good. The first two are by Elbert Hendricks and others, which are what I call essential reading. The third paper covers operating characteristics of Zirconia sensors. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Parts ----------------------------------------------------------------------- HIP9010 Harris Semiconductor An integrated knock sensor signal processor. This thing (HIP9010) is controlled by a microprocessor bus port, and does programmable gain, filtering, windowing and integration. It produces an analog output voltage for knock amplitude. MC3484-S4 Fuel injector driver. They cost about $4.50 each from Hamilton-Avnet, but you have to buy at least 40 or 50 at a time. LM1964 An amplifier designed especially for amplifying O2 sensor signals. It's in National's special purpose devices book (Linear 3). LM1949 Injector Drive Controller SAMTEC makes QFP to PGC Adapter boards for a variety of QFP Packages. Chip Specific Adapters "SPEC" for a variety of Motorola and Intel Chips, SAMTEC phn 800 726-8329. CSP3000 -- Signal processor for automotive applications The Car Signal Processor (CSP3000) is a signal processor designed for use in automotive applications. 24 analog inputs and 8 PWM outputs represent the interfaces with the analog world. The digital, 12 bits wide I/O port and two serial bus interfaces permit the exchange of digital data within the application or between processors. FEATURES OF THE CSP: - 12 Bit RISC processor (FP) - 256 words of internal RAM (12 bit) - 2048 works of internal ROM (20 bit) - internal clock generator - 12 Bidirectional IO lines - 2 serial ports - up to 24 analog inputs - 8 PWM outputs - up to 24 digital inputs - all digital inputs with hysteresis - 2 independant RESET pins for FP and PWM system - PLCC 68 package - EMU version available in 132 pin LLCC package MC68332 -- CPU32 modular controller The MC68332 is one of a Motrola's family of modular architecture controller chips. The '332 contains the following modules: * CPU32, a 32bit M68000 style processor with all 68020 functionality except the bitfield operations. * TPU, a 16 bit RISC time processing unit that has 16 I/O pins and can independently perform all sorts of time functions such as PWM, period measurement, position synchronized pulse generation, missing pulse detection, etc (great for engine management). * QSM, a serial module that contains one standard asynchronous serial port and one synchronous port. * SIM, a system integration module that does chip selects, etc. * 2K of onboard static ram. 67F687 The 67F687 is a high performance MSICs ( Mixed Signal Integrated Circuit ) designed to work with a microprocessor in an engine management system. Using two sensor inputs (crank and cam), the 67F687 tracks engine position through one or two complete revolutions with a resolution of 0.25 degrees. Designed to be flexible, the 67F687 will accept a variety of sensor types and pulse patterns. It generates ignition and injection output pulses based on position and time parameters supplied by the host microprocessor, relieving it of many of the real time interrupt routines associated with these tasks. These outputs can directly drive power devices to actuate automotive ignition coils and fuel injectors. A sense input from each device allows individual diagnostics, short circuit protection and ignition coil current limiting. A timer, which measures coil charge time at the ignition sense inputs, enhances closed loop dwell control. Communication with a host microprocessor is through a parallel data and address bus. A general purpose parallel I/O port offers level sensitive input and output capability, in addition to edge detect inputs and PWM outputs. Silicon Systems Automotive Products 14351 Myford Road Tustin, CA 92680 USA Attn: Tony Anderson Electro Corp. 1845 - 57th Street Sarasota, FL 34243 voice: 813-355-8411 fax: 813-355-3120 A complete line of sensors. MC3334 Ignition controller chip. It's an 8-pin DIP that uses a sensing capacitor to determine if the coil was completely charged for the last spark. It adjusts the dwell for the next spark accordingly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ----------------------------------------------------------------------- PADS -- Circuit layout software. Has all the symbols, 68000, 8031, 80x86, TTL, CMOS, etc. It seems easy to add to this as well. Outputs Gerber, Postscript, etc. Got the copy I have off a CDROM. Walnut Creek Simtel 10/93 collection. Anyway, try ftp.uu.net, wuarchive.wustl.edu, ftp.funet.fi etc. The directory at ftp.uu.net should be /system/msdos/simtel/cad. The files are padslib.zip, padslog.zip, padspcb.zip. Dunno what the versions are. RTEMS -- Real time OS You can ftp it from lancelot.gcs.redstone.army.mil in /pub/rtems. Look for version 3.1.03. GCC -- DOS hosted cross compiler for 68000 series CPUs There are now binaries (and the changed source files for anyone interested) available via anon. ftp. The binaries are gcc 2.6.0 for djgpp (msdos) host and 68000 family embedded target. The ftp address is: ftp.lysator.liu.se in directory /pub/msdos/gnu/gcc-dos-m68k From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 01:37:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11351; Sat, 25 Mar 95 01:37:15 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11346; Fri, 24 Mar 95 20:37:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id NAA11443; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:27:34 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199503250127.NAA11443@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: efi332 questions To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:27:33 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1345 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have a few questions about the efi332 board. I assume that the 332 was primarily chosen for the TPU facilities. Does this infer that there is some advantage to using the TPU for spark and fuel timing over the facilities in the 67F687 ? This device just seems to be the ideal way to implement a DIY system. The tedious part is all done leaving what I would consider the more interesting software to be done. I'm still told by my supplier that the 332 is in short supply / allocation. Is this no longer the case in the US ? I'd started laying out a circuit based around the 68306 as it has the same core, uart, blah blah, is cheaper and available. Assuming the use of the 67F687, I couldn't see a good reason to use the 332. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating any change in course with efi332. Something's happening and I'd rather see that continue. An area that does concern me a bit is that until now there has been no mention of power supply conditioning. On automotive products that I have worked on in the past (taximeters, printers, and others), we were using a fairly large chunk of the available PCB space for this purpose. If the intention is to produce something 3"x3", I would expect there to be another board to hold filters, fuse and power supply related components as these take a lot of space and dissipate heat. Steve. From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 01:52:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11381; Sat, 25 Mar 95 01:52:18 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11376; Fri, 24 Mar 95 20:52:16 -0500 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id RAA03297 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:52:15 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:52:13 UTC-0800 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:52:13 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950324175213] Content-Identifier: 2583 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503250127.NAA11443@kcbbs.gen.nz> Message-Id: <"2583*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: efi332 questions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I assume that the 332 was primarily chosen for the TPU facilities. Does >this infer that there is some advantage to using the TPU for spark and >fuel timing over the facilities in the 67F687 ? This device just seems >to be the ideal way to implement a DIY system. The tedious part is all >done leaving what I would consider the more interesting software to be >done. The TPU has equivalent/superior functionality to the 67F687. The '332 is more common than a 67F687 and cheaper too when you fold in all the costs. One could still tack a 67F687 onto a efi332 board. As Andy V. pointed out, the TPU is reprogrammable. I've loaded different code into it I got off of the Moto bbs. They have a free assembler for it etc. See early posting etc. for the rational. >I'm still told by my supplier that the 332 is in short supply / >allocation. Is this no longer the case in the US ? I just ordered five from Hamilton Hallmark and two from a local disributor that I received today. It's about as good as it's gonna get. They are CANADIAN $45. I think this is a pretty good deal. YMMV. Try ordering SPAKMC68332... if all else fails. This is a special 2-pack. > If the >intention is to produce something 3"x3", I would expect there to be >another board to hold filters, fuse and power supply related components >as these take a lot of space and dissipate heat. The processor board is only a basic board. There might by a regulator on it but nothing fancy. This is up to the 2nd board. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 05:54:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11757; Sat, 25 Mar 95 05:54:50 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11752; Sat, 25 Mar 95 00:54:48 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13837; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:54:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:54:46 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503250554.AA13837@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: efi332 questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I assume that the 332 was primarily chosen for the TPU facilities. Does this infer that there is some advantage to using the TPU for spark and fuel timing over the facilities in the 67F687 ? This device just seems Supposedly Electromotive is locked in a lawsuit with silicon systems over the 67F687 chip, so who knows how long this chip will be available. - Bruce From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 18:01:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12765; Sat, 25 Mar 95 18:01:25 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12760; Sat, 25 Mar 95 13:01:22 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 25 Mar 95 11:59:51 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 11:59:51 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan A Erickson Subject: eproms To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello everyone, I have several very basic questions about eproms that I'm sure many of the people on this list will know the answers to. 1. In a GM P4 ECM or any other auto ecm, is the eprom generally DIP or PLCC packages? 2. What is the average eprom memory size in the auto ecm, specifically the P4? 512K? 3. Is there any particular brand of eprom that the P4 or other ecm's use? 4. Of those that have programmed eproms for ecms, what do you use to program them? 5. How many pins or the average eproms in ecms? 28 pin DIP? 6. Has anybody ever used the cheap eprom programmers available from JDR? They have one available for $129. It comes with an 8-bit AT card and ZIF socket for 24 or 28 pin DIP eproms from 27xx to 27512. It also includes editing software. I'm sure this isn't as good as more expensive units but is it good enough? Thanks for any help you all can give, Ryan From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 18:49:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12949; Sat, 25 Mar 95 18:49:10 GMT Received: from access2.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12944; Sat, 25 Mar 95 13:49:07 -0500 Received: by access2.digex.net id AA08305 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:48:54 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503251848.AA08305@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: eproms To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:48:53 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ryan A Erickson" at Mar 25, 95 11:59:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 367 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've been using one of those 'Sunshine' brand EPROM programmers for about 4 years without any trouble. It does EPROMs up to a 27C512. There is even a configuration program that lets you adjust the pots to set the critical voltages. From the pictures in the catalog, I assume it is the same thing being sold by JDR. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 19:40:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13345; Sat, 25 Mar 95 19:40:03 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13340; Sat, 25 Mar 95 14:39:58 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rsbgN-000CwNC; Sat, 25 Mar 95 13:39 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: eproms To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:39:35 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503251848.AA08305@access2.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Mar 25, 95 01:48:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 900 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis writes: > > I've been using one of those 'Sunshine' brand EPROM programmers for about 4 > years without any trouble. It does EPROMs up to a 27C512. There is even a > configuration program that lets you adjust the pots to set the critical > voltages. From the pictures in the catalog, I assume it is the same thing > being sold by JDR. I had one of those Sunshines when I was at Texas. It was quirky sometimes (would always report that first byte was wrong when verifying the master slot), but other than that worked fine. The proms that it failed on the first byte verified fine when I stuck them in a slave slot. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 20:45:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13602; Sat, 25 Mar 95 20:45:11 GMT Received: from xs1.xs4all.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13596; Sat, 25 Mar 95 15:45:07 -0500 Received: from asd05-11.dial.xs4all.nl by xs1.xs4all.nl with SMTP id AA08728 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 25 Mar 1995 21:45:03 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 21:45:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199503252045.AA08728@xs1.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: jsturc@xs4all.nl (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: jsturc@xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: Re: Rinda Technologies X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Can anyone tell me how to contact Rinda Technologies to get info/pricing >on the Diacom product? > >Are there any other products on the market for interfacing PC's to >factory engine controllers (including late-model units) for extracting >diagnostic information? > >Thanks - any info muchly appreciated! > >Wayne Wolinski >Northern Alberta Institute of Technology >Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > > I am using DIACOM Plus on my '91 TransAm and it is very useful. Rinda have versions of the Diacom software for Ford, Chrysler and GM. You can contact Rinda Technologies Inc at:- 4563 N. Elston Ave Chicago, IL 60630 312/736-6633 All the best, Jim, Jim Sturcbecher jsturc@xs4all.nl From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 25 23:15:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13879; Sat, 25 Mar 95 23:15:56 GMT Received: from xs1.xs4all.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13874; Sat, 25 Mar 95 18:15:52 -0500 Received: from asd05-07.dial.xs4all.nl by xs1.xs4all.nl with SMTP id AA21458 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Mar 1995 00:15:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 00:15:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199503252315.AA21458@xs1.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: jsturc@xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: jsturc@xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: Re: eproms X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I've been using one of those 'Sunshine' brand EPROM programmers for about 4 >years without any trouble. It does EPROMs up to a 27C512. There is even a >configuration program that lets you adjust the pots to set the critical >voltages. From the pictures in the catalog, I assume it is the same thing >being sold by JDR. > >.../Bill > >-- >Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net > > I've also been using a Sunshine programmer for years. Used it to read out the code from the Calpack eprom in my '91 TransAm. This programmer is one of the best buys I've ever made. Not having seen the referenced pictures, if it is the Sunshine programmer, then its worth getting. PS, the one I have also does PALs, and MPUs as well as being able to test TTL and CMOS 4000 chips. Jim Sturcbecher jsturc@xs4all.nl From owner-diy_efi Sun Mar 26 11:34:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29745; Sun, 26 Mar 95 11:34:57 GMT Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29740; Sun, 26 Mar 95 06:34:52 -0500 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.941228sam) id GAA03263; Sun, 26 Mar 1995 06:34:51 -0500 Date: 26 Mar 95 06:30:32 EST From: Eric Elliott <75771.3640@compuserve.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: free computers Message-Id: <950326113031_75771.3640_BHQ46-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello, Free computers happen when Chrysler automatic transmissions are serviced. The need for new firmware usually causes replacement when the trans is serviced. Used since 1989 in Chrysler 4 speed automatic transmissions, the computers were replaced on an exchange basis. Now many are just trashed. This info per the local trans shop which gave me a computer. Don't know what is in it. My Dodge books don't do electric boxes. What processor and ports are used? The cast aluminum or crapalloy case might be removed by toilet bowl cleaner or saw. How can the soft amber silicone potting material be removed from the computer? Eric Elliott From owner-diy_efi Sun Mar 26 15:02:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29993; Sun, 26 Mar 95 15:02:12 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29988; Sun, 26 Mar 95 10:02:10 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-161.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 26 Mar 95 09:00:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 95 09:00:18 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17717.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: free computers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Mr. Elliot Wrote: >How can the soft amber silicone potting material be removed from the computer? When I was an intern at ADC/Magnetic Controls Company ten or twelve years ago, we had some pretty nasty solvents for looking inside of and "evaluating" competitors products. I think there was one company who made the solvents, but they had several products depending on what you wanted to remove. I'm sorry but I don't know the name of the company. That wasn't directly my project. Silicone sounds really difficult if not impossible. And by now the EPA (and possibly with good reason, although certainly not always) has probably banned their use. Good luck! Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 27 14:24:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07307; Mon, 27 Mar 95 14:24:26 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07302; Mon, 27 Mar 95 09:24:22 -0500 Received: from pm1_19.magicnet.net (pm1_19.magicnet.net [204.96.116.69]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04570; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:25:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199503271425.JAA04570@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:07:36 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: RE: Ignition coil charge time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Last week Ed Lansinger wrote 14 pages of waffle repeating what every one else had written and telling us about the magic of an oscilloscope and a resistor :) Its a long time since I went to school and things may have changed since then due to inflation but they taught me that inductors and capacitors have phase lead and lag. They also taught me that in an inductor, the magnetic flux was proportional to the current in the inductor. Therefore, for any given coil, the greatest flux in it will come when the current is at its maximum, and that won't be until it has achieved a steady state, ie the voltage change and the current change in the coil is zero. Now, according to muy simplistic mind, if you put 12v across a coil, instantaneously, there is no current flow. Then the current increases as the coil "charges up" Then the coil has full current passing through it and the coil can absorb no more energy and the transistor saturates causing the voltage drop across the emitter collector to appear. Hence you know the coil is charged. Ed' graphics (so much *better* than mine) and the explanation :---- You get nifty pictures like: > > _____ > / ! > / ! > / ! > / ! > / ! > / ! >_____/ !_____ > > ^ ^ ^ > coil peak spark fires > begins current > to > charge > >If you measure the slope of the rising part you know how fast your coil is charging. If >you know that N amps of current is required for reliable ignition, you can then figure >out the correct charge time. This should be very close to the time predicted by the >equation provided by Matt Franklin and John Stein (given that you know the inductance of >the coil). Increasing the battery voltage will increase the charging rate and lower the >required charge time. > ---really don't help a lot. The original question was trying to find out how long the coil should be charged for to get reliable ignition. If he knew that he wouldn't have asked the question! Increasing the battery voltage on a 12v battery is not easy. >6. "Saturation" simply means that you've reached a limit of some sort despite the >continued application of a stimulus. It's not a term specific to inductors (or >electronics, for that matter). How about waffle saturation? Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 27 21:44:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11586; Mon, 27 Mar 95 21:44:53 GMT Received: from access3.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11571; Mon, 27 Mar 95 16:44:31 -0500 Received: by access3.digex.net id AA02780 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:44:16 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503272144.AA02780@access3.digex.net> Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:44:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503271425.JAA04570@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 27, 95 09:07:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1267 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I thank everyone for their input on this question. I had assumed that the best ignition would result from a coil at or just below the core saturation point. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some little known trick about using 2/3 that current or some such foolishness. I already knew how to see the knee in the curve on the oscope, how to calculate the slope of the charge current vs. time, how to limit the maximum current, that extra current would overheat the coil, etc, etc. So here's a new question. Since the traditional battery, points, and coil has managed to run fine for nearly 100 years, exactly what is the motivation for some company like Chrysler to use a multiple coil distributorless ignition. They're certainly not doing it to get more performance out of a minivan. Are the three ignition coils cheaper than a distributor? Are the high tension side voltages so high these days that the distributor cap would need to be too large in diameter? Porsche is still using a distributor on the 911. Why is that? Does it have anything to do with the cost of all the coils they'd need for the twin-plug motor? My DIY_EFI is to be used on a friend's 911 track car. Should I use multiple coils, or keep the rotor and distributor cap? .../Bill From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 27 22:34:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12686; Mon, 27 Mar 95 22:34:00 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12681; Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:33:56 -0500 Received: from pm1_14.magicnet.net (pm1_14.magicnet.net [204.96.116.64]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA13438; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:35:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199503272235.RAA13438@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:17:07 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi Colt computer Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Would the person who asked for the Colt computer boards please E-mail me a snail mail address again. A computer crash wiped out my E-mail data and the boards are now here ready to ship Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 27 23:02:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13099; Mon, 27 Mar 95 23:02:21 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13093; Mon, 27 Mar 95 18:02:18 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rtNnc-000vIyC; Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:02 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rtNna-000uKSC; Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:02 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:02:14 CST Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 16:48:24 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis Wrote: | So here's a new question. Since the traditional battery, points, | and coil | has managed to run fine for nearly 100 years, exactly what is the | motivation | for some company like Chrysler to use a multiple coil | distributorless ignition. | They're certainly not doing it to get more performance out of a | minivan. Are | the three ignition coils cheaper than a distributor? Are the | high tension side | voltages so high these days that the distributor cap would need | to be too large | in diameter? The higher voltages are one reason, but a larger distributer like used in HEI would solve that problem. I think the main reason is increased reliability. My '78 monte carlo has HEI ignition, and in 17 years has never needed anything done other than timing. The original electronics have never failed. I hate to think how many point gaps I would have gone through in that time. :-) On to another question: In a wasted spark system do both plugs fire from one coil discharge? It has been my experience (with fluorescent lights, that is, not ignition systems) that you need one coil for each spark gap. Otherwise, only one or the other will arc, and you don't know which one. Assuming the gaps are similar, that is. It seems like you would need one coil per plug, or maybe a dual output coil. any comments? --steve From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 01:38:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13908; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:38:43 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13903; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:38:38 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10536 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:38:32 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03037; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:37:49 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA014974836; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:40:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 16:52:16 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales appears to have mistaken my good-faith attempt to share information I thought others could use as something between spamming the list and a personal attack. I regret this and apologize for not being clearer about my intentions. In my first post to this thread I believe I did, in fact, answer the question which was asked, adding supporting detail. My second post to this thread was prompted by a) other posts to which I felt I could add further supporting detail and b) statements that I thought were incorrect or potentially misleading. With regards to Mr. Wales's post, I felt that certain elements were incorrect out of many with which I agreed and for which I gave him credit. I offered my view, allowing for the possibility that either we had different experiences or I was wrong. I also described a technique I have used before to address this issue, intending to augment rather than usurp the technique he described. I can be long winded, but I do not ramble (or "waffle"). I think I have something to contribute. I also think I have used the list properly. I regret having prompted a flame from anyone, which was never my intention and which I try actively to avoid. I apologize to Mr. Wales for offending him and I continue to stand by my writings. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 01:40:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13922; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:40:39 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13917; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:40:36 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10612 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:40:32 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03043; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:39:49 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA015014956; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:42:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:59:52 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Transistor saturation in coil drive circuits To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: >Then the coil has full current passing through it and the coil can absorb no more >energy >>>and the transistor saturates causing the voltage drop across the >emitter collector to appear. Hence you know the coil is charged.<<< I think the emphasised portion of this statement is in error, although if it is an observed phenomenon I have a possible explanation for it. The error could cause problems for the DIYer building his/her own ignition system. The remainder of the message regarding the sequence of events as a coil charges is well stated. The statement seems to imply that there is a causal link between the current reaching its maximum and the saturation of the transistor, as if saturation of the transistor occurs only when the current stops rising. This is not the case. A transistor will be driven into saturation immediately upon application of a sufficiently high base current Ib >= Ic/hfe, regardless of whether the collector current is rising, falling, or remaining steady. My first guess is that most ignition coil drivers will hit the transistor with a lot of base current from the start of charging, immediately throwing it into saturation. Thus, the saturation voltage will appear at the start of charging. My second guess is that, for coil drivers that do not have a current-limiting function, they will supply enough base current Ib >= Ic/hfe so that the transistor remains in saturation even when the coil current is maxed out (current limited only by the coil's resistance). I think my guesses are reasonable because transistor heat dissipation is minimized if you keep it saturated, a good design goal. Since saturation is not a function of the time derivative of the collector current (sophisticated transistor models aside) I would expect to see no sudden jump when the coil "stops charging". Saturation voltage is a weak function of collector current. For most power transistors used for this sort of work I would expect to see something like Vcesat about 1.7 volts at Ic=1A and Vcesat about 2.1 volts at Ic=10A. So, as the coil charges Vce should slowly increase from something like 1.7 volts to something like 2 volts. When the coil current ceases to rise you would notice that Vce ceases to rise, too. If you do notice a sharp rise in Vce at some point, I suspect you are observing one of the following phenomenon: 1) The drive circuit has current limiting. This is usually accomplished by reducing Ib, >de= Ic/hfe is no longer true. The transistor >dedrive circuit< has reached some sort of limit and will refuse to charge the coils further. You can probably charge the coils further without changing the supply voltage if you can change the drive circuit, something I suppose a DIYer might do... > Increasing the battery voltage on a 12v battery is not easy. DIYers interested in reducing the charge time on their coils (for, say, extremely high RPM operation) should check out the various batteries now available with both a 12V terminal and a 16V terminal and a built-in charger for the 16V section. I also think Jacobs makes a 12V->16V DC-DC converter for just this sort of application. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 01:42:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13936; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:42:03 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13931; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:42:01 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rtQHh-000CuZC; Mon, 27 Mar 95 19:41 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:41:29 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503272144.AA02780@access3.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Mar 27, 95 04:44:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 636 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis writes: > So here's a new question. Since the traditional battery, points, and coil > has managed to run fine for nearly 100 years, exactly what is the motivation > for some company like Chrysler to use a multiple coil distributorless ignition. Emissions. Misfire majorly increases HC emissions. Distributorless ignition reduces the chance of misfire. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 01:44:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13950; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:44:05 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13945; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:44:02 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10753 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:44:00 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03059; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:43:16 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA015085162; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:46:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:08:54 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Distributorless ignitions To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis wanted to know what the reason is for the big push to distributorless ignitions. I can't give a definitive answer but I'd like to propose the following possibilities: 1. The distributor cap size vs. ignition voltage argument sounds reasonable. 2. Maintenance is reduced if you don't have to set mechanical timing. The timing also won't slide out of whack. The new standard is "no tune-ups for 100,000 miles" so every little bit helps. 3. A coil pack just might be less expensive in production than a distributor. Think of not just the unit cost but the cost to prepare the engine for it and assemble it to the car. Plus it's something that must be designed into the engine to begin with. 4. You get more reliable spark if you eliminate the extra gap in the distributor and the associated wear and oxidation you get on the rotor and wire terminals. 5. You get a much larger range of control over your spark advance values. This is important for engines that might run 40-50 degrees of advance at light loads. 6. You don't have to worry about an increasing spark gap in the distributor as advance increases. Just for grins I recently cut a slot in the distributor cap of my GLH Turbo so I could watch the position of the rotor as the spark fired. At high RPMs the rotor wasn't directly in front of the wire terminal, so the spark had an extra long gap to jump. I adjusted it as best I could but now I'm marginal at idle and definitely off during crank. Steve ("=Ravet") asked if in a wasted spark system do both plugs fire from one coil discharge. The answer is a definite yes. The current loop is out one terminal of the secondary, through the center electrode of a plug, jump the gap to the ground electrode, through the head to the ground electrode of the paired plug, jump the gap to the center electrode, and on to the other terminal of the secondary, completing the loop. The situation is helped if one cylinder is on its exhaust stroke because the resistance of the hot, ionized exhaust gas is much lower than the intake gas so you don't waste too much energy. Of course, this doesn't help you during crank... ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 01:49:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13995; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:49:10 GMT Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13990; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:49:05 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49331; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 18:41:56 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 18:41:55 -0700 (MST) From: Wayne Wolinski Subject: Re: Ignition To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Bill Lewis Wrote: > | So here's a new question. Since the traditional battery, points, > | and coil has managed to run fine for nearly 100 years, exactly what > | motivation for some company like Chrysler to use a multiple coil > | distributorless ignition. Greetings - here are some possible reasons that I can think of: no moving parts - this offers a number of advantages, ie: - no pickup wires to break off (like in the HEI pickup coil - due to the flexing from advance) - no bushings to wear either (centrifugal advance, or rotor shaft). Also, no rotor/cap posts to wear out (due to current crossing). No cap to crack and let moisture in. Besides, the new parts cost lots of money!! :-) Cheers... W. Wolinski Northern Alta. Institute of Technology From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 27 22:17:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13950; Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:44:05 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13945; Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:44:02 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10753 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:44:00 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03059; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:43:16 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA015085162; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:46:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:08:54 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Distributorless ignitions To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis wanted to know what the reason is for the big push to distributorless ignitions. I can't give a definitive answer but I'd like to propose the following possibilities: 1. The distributor cap size vs. ignition voltage argument sounds reasonable. 2. Maintenance is reduced if you don't have to set mechanical timing. The timing also won't slide out of whack. The new standard is "no tune-ups for 100,000 miles" so every little bit helps. 3. A coil pack just might be less expensive in production than a distributor. Think of not just the unit cost but the cost to prepare the engine for it and assemble it to the car. Plus it's something that must be designed into the engine to begin with. 4. You get more reliable spark if you eliminate the extra gap in the distributor and the associated wear and oxidation you get on the rotor and wire terminals. 5. You get a much larger range of control over your spark advance values. This is important for engines that might run 40-50 degrees of advance at light loads. 6. You don't have to worry about an increasing spark gap in the distributor as advance increases. Just for grins I recently cut a slot in the distributor cap of my GLH Turbo so I could watch the position of the rotor as the spark fired. At high RPMs the rotor wasn't directly in front of the wire terminal, so the spark had an extra long gap to jump. I adjusted it as best I could but now I'm marginal at idle and definitely off during crank. Steve ("=Ravet") asked if in a wasted spark system do both plugs fire from one coil discharge. The answer is a definite yes. The current loop is out one terminal of the secondary, through the center electrode of a plug, jump the gap to the ground electrode, through the head to the ground electrode of the paired plug, jump the gap to the center electrode, and on to the other terminal of the secondary, completing the loop. The situation is helped if one cylinder is on its exhaust stroke because the resistance of the hot, ionized exhaust gas is much lower than the intake gas so you don't waste too much energy. Of course, this doesn't help you during crank... ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 04:59:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01441; Tue, 28 Mar 95 04:59:08 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01436; Mon, 27 Mar 95 23:59:05 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-111.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 27 Mar 95 22:58:53 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 22:57:11 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17740.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:44:16 -0500 (ES, Bill Lewis wrote: >the three ignition coils cheaper than a distributor? Are the high tension side >voltages so high these days that the distributor cap would need to be too large Think no maintenence. EPA. Big Brother is watching. 100,000 mile sealed hoods. No tampering. But *we* can have even more fun altering the new dis- less systems. ****************** LONG LIVE DIY!!! *********************************** Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 05:14:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01485; Tue, 28 Mar 95 05:14:42 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01480; Tue, 28 Mar 95 00:14:40 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-111.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 27 Mar 95 23:14:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 23:12:45 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <18591.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: RE: Ignition coil energizing time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:07:36 -0500, Peter Wales wrote: >Last week Ed Lansinger wrote 14 pages of waffle repeating what every one >else had written and telling us about the magic of an oscilloscope and a >resistor :) Mr. Wales: Ed has a lot of wisdom to offer and apparently the spare time to write well- reasoned summaries which I find to make good engineering sense. As an ME I'm not offended by what he says, and my feeble EE background is also satisfied. I am also growing to appreciate *your* brand of experimental experience. But I also need solid theory, so lighten up. Both experimentalism and solid theory are necessary to any successful project. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 13:13:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02292; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:13:13 GMT Received: from access3.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02287; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:13:11 -0500 Received: by access3.digex.net id AA15276 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:13:04 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503281313.AA15276@access3.digex.net> Subject: ECU CPU survey To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:13:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Mar 27, 95 04:52:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 137 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone have a good idea of what CPUs are being used by the various auto companies? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 13:12:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02285; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:12:25 GMT Received: from access3.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02280; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:12:22 -0500 Received: by access3.digex.net id AA15160 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:11:37 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503281311.AA15160@access3.digex.net> Subject: Re: Ignition coil charge time To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:11:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Mar 27, 95 04:52:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 314 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Thanks again for all the input. It seems I've started quite a discussion. Do distributorless systems take advantage of the longer available coil charge time and thereby get away with cheaper coils? Does anybody know any actual charge times used in real systems? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 13:17:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02330; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:17:10 GMT Received: from access3.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02325; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:17:08 -0500 Received: by access3.digex.net id AA15520 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:16:34 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503281316.AA15520@access3.digex.net> Subject: In vehicle networks To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:16:34 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Mar 27, 95 04:52:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 454 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The factory shop manuals for the Dodge Caravan clearly indicate that the various computers in the car are communicating over some sort of serial bus. It seems to use a bidirectional differential line. Does anyone know exactly how that is done? Is it RS-485 or something similar? Is there a master computer that sends out request and command packets to the others, or an Ethernet-like collision system? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 13:50:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02542; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:50:56 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02537; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:50:53 -0500 Received: from pm1_27.magicnet.net (pm1_27.magicnet.net [204.96.116.77]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA18140 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:52:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199503281352.IAA18140@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:34:02 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: RE: Ignition coil energizing time Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI You wrote:- >Ed has a lot of wisdom to offer and apparently the spare time to write well- >reasoned summaries which I find to make good engineering sense. As an ME >I'm not offended by what he says, and my feeble EE background is also >satisfied. > >I am also growing to appreciate *your* brand of experimental experience. >But I also need solid theory, so lighten up. Both experimentalism and >solid theory are necessary to any successful project. I dont dispute Ed's wisdom! He may be a very clever person for all I know, but when I last answered a question concerning injector dynamics, I got a long discourse on some obscure Japanese paper about how injectors work in the non linear region. Then I got 18 individuals mailing me agreeing with me that you shouldn't work in the non linear region. When I asked why they were mailing me directly instead of to the group, the answer was they didn't want to get flamed ands were quite happy to sit on the sidelines and watch, contributing nothing. That's not good news. Then we get this long discourse with Ed telling us all who is right and who is wrong, and at the end of it a definition of saturation. There was no contribution to the topic, just a "ok I've listened to you all and I've decided who is right and who is wrong". When I can make a contribution I do. When I can't I keep quiet. Someone telling us we are right and we are wrong is not what is needed to encourage the free expression of ideas needed. There may have been other ideas spinning off the original question, but Ed'd final summary has killed of the discussion. For example the question of the voltage across the transistor in saturation has been raised and trying to explain my theory to others has aroused my curiosity in whether the voltage will appear across the Collector Emitter junction, only when the coil is saturated. I expect that thread will now die and I'll never find out :( Finally, as far as lightening up is concerned, I dont think I need to lighten up, I'm happy to listen to anyone with something to contribute. I just don't like anyone giving me marks out of 10 and a E for effort. Finally, two people commented on my posting. Ed and you. Maybe I'm not wrong. Peter From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 13:53:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02556; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:53:43 GMT Received: from spbted.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02551; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:53:41 -0500 Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA6197; Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:58:48 -0800 Message-Id: <9503281658.AA6197@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:58:28 EST From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu To: DIY_EFI Subject: test Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I see everybody but me.... testing.... -tim From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 15:14:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03332; Tue, 28 Mar 95 15:14:06 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03312; Tue, 28 Mar 95 10:13:41 -0500 Received: from achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (achill [134.169.34.18]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA25253 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:13:28 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id RAA11748 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:13:26 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199503281513.RAA11748@achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: ECU CPU survey To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 17:13:25 MET DST In-Reply-To: <199503281313.AA15276@access3.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Mar 28, 95 08:13:03 am Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Does anyone have a good idea of what CPUs are being used by the various > auto companies? > > .../Bill > > -- > Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net > > The only auto company I can talk about is VW. They use a 68HC11A0 in their Digijet (inj) and Digifant (inj+ign) systems. Earlier Digifants had a 8051 (not sure, but it was some kind of Intel (sorry for such hard words) MCU together with a 6805. Now a few questions from me: I have a VW Polo-G40 (1.3l 4cyl, VW G-compressor, 83kW) which uses the Digifant which is a Digijet with ignition system included (the Digijet is also known as Bosch L2-jetronic). Because of the compressor, the Digifant in my car uses MAP, other cars as the Passat use MAF. There is a serial bus implemented for communication with other units as Digifiz and for diagnostics. This bus is called ABUS, can speed up to 500kbit/s and has multimaster support. 1. Where does the Digifant store the diagnostic information, in RAM or in EEPROM? 2. How can I tell the ECU to send diag info, which means: What is the address of the Digifant, and what is the appropriate command to read diag info? Who knows other codes, e.g. for disabling one cyl, reset diag memory, ...? 3. What fields are stored, and at which address can I find them? 4. What companies offer tuning kits for the Polo-G40? There must be such kits since the car is used in motorsports (esp. in D, GB, NL?). Think this should do it for now. Bis bald, Jens. From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 16:18:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03827; Tue, 28 Mar 95 16:18:54 GMT Received: from xs1.xs4all.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA03822; Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:18:49 -0500 Received: from asd01-06.dial.xs4all.nl by xs1.xs4all.nl with SMTP id AA07970 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:18:37 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:18:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199503281618.AA07970@xs1.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: jsturc@xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: jsturc@xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: Re: ECU CPU survey X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Does anyone have a good idea of what CPUs are being used by the various >auto companies? > >.../Bill > >-- >Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net > > My '91 TransAm (GM) appears to have one of the 68HC11 family fitted. Jim Sturcbecher jsturc@xs4all.nl From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 17:26:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04007; Tue, 28 Mar 95 17:26:33 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04002; Tue, 28 Mar 95 12:26:29 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-162.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:26:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:24:22 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17053.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: On right and wrong Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Peter, >When I can't I keep quiet. Someone telling us we are right and we are wrong >is not what is needed to encourage the free expression of ideas needed. Isn't the discussion of the ideas on their rightness or wrongness what should happen after a brainstorming session? >final summary has killed of the discussion. For example the question of the >voltage across the transistor in saturation has been raised and trying to >explain my theory to others has aroused my curiosity in whether the voltage >will appear across the Collector Emitter junction, only when the coil is >saturated. I expect that thread will now die and I'll never find out :( So let's bring it up again. Didn't someone say we could set it up as series circuit and look where the drops are? 12 volts total, a little across a balast resistor, a little across the coil, and the rest across whatever is controlling it -- either a C-E junction of a BJT or more spohisticated current controller such as an old HEI module. And the distribution of voltage drops will be changing (as you mentioned in an earlier post). Comments? Suggestion: To keep everyone happier, can we limit ourselves to 20 or 30 lines of 80 character long text most of the time? Well-focused, short messages are often *so* much more helpful. Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 17:44:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04041; Tue, 28 Mar 95 17:44:39 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04036; Tue, 28 Mar 95 12:44:36 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA04590 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:44:33 -0500 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu Message-Id: <199503281744.MAA04590@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: test To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:44:32 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9503281658.AA6197@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> from "tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu" at Mar 28, 95 08:58:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 406 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu wrote > > I see everybody but me.... testing.... > > -tim I see you Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 18:31:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04151; Tue, 28 Mar 95 18:31:25 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04146; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:31:22 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05731; Tue, 28 Mar 95 10:29:35 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HONZSX5LM800RRQ6@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23393; Tue, 28 Mar 95 13:30:53 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950328132703.288; 28 Mar 95 13:29:20 +0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:24:52 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Having lurked around this list for a while I realize that conventional wisdom considers 1 to 1.5 milliseconds to be the minimum reasonable drive pulse width for injectors, and that this figure establishes the lower limit of the injector's dynamic range. As part of an effort to explain the ratty idle of my 2.5 liter TBI GM four, I looked at the injector drive waveform at idle and found it to be about 1.2 milliseconds in width, uncomfortably close to the minimum width for predictable operation but not surprising in light of the very light load at idle. The disquieting aspect of the drive pulse was that while its duration was constant, the period was varying between about a value of about 40 milliseconds to one of about 45 milliseconds. Idle spped was esentially constant. Is this a commonly-used technique to achieve an EFFECTIVE pulse width of less than 1 millisecond?? Is something more involved going on here?? Anyone have any similar findings (or opinions)?? John From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 19:35:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04286; Tue, 28 Mar 95 19:35:05 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04281; Tue, 28 Mar 95 14:35:02 -0500 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com (SRLNS1.SRL.FORD.COM [128.5.192.132]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA20625 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:35:01 -0500 From: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id OAA08801 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:35:00 -0500 Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA27721; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:34:58 -0500 Received: from localhost by pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA13254; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:34:55 -0500 Message-Id: <9503281934.AA13254@pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Subject: Re: On right and wrong In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:24:22 GMT." <17053.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 14:34:55 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Compliments to all of you. This list has a wonderfully high signal to noise ratio. Just wanted to let you know. I wish I could respond more often, but there is still some nervousness about the Internet here. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 22:36:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06587; Tue, 28 Mar 95 22:36:03 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06582; Tue, 28 Mar 95 17:35:59 -0500 Received: from pm1_02.magicnet.net (pm1_02.magicnet.net [204.96.116.52]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12327; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:32:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199503282032.PAA12327@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:14:11 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Magnetic saturation v electronic saturation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I suggested that a coil would be come saturated when the voltage on the collector emitter junction showed a rise to the Vce sat level. Thinking about it a little more, I may be wrong, or I may not be. If you drive a transistor really hard, then it goes into saturation. If there is no voltage on the collector, there will be no voltage across the emitter - collector junction. If there is no current drawn through the collector then will there be a Vce sat voltage? If a lot of current is drawn, will the Vce sat voltage be the same? My original contention was that the transistor goes into saturation immediately (sic) on application of the drive current, but the significant Vce sat voltage will not occur until the coil is fully saturated and there is no change in current flow. This, because the current and voltage are out of phase until the coil is saturated. What do you think? Peter From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 22:41:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06608; Tue, 28 Mar 95 22:41:55 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06603; Tue, 28 Mar 95 17:41:50 -0500 Received: from pm2_15.magicnet.net (pm2_15.magicnet.net [204.96.116.105]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12145; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:20:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199503282020.PAA12145@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:02:13 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: On right and wrong Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Matt, I don't want to labor this point as I think enough has been said already, but, all Ed did was to repeat what everyone else had said, give it his seal of approval or not and then end with a definition of Saturated. At that point I was saturated and said so. If there had been a positive contribution, that would have been something else but there wasn't and to effectively plagiarise everyone elses contribution wrankled. In this case a line limit would have done the job, but that may not be a good idea for other reasons. No, I think I have achieved what I set out to do and having received a number of messages of support via E-mail, I am not alone in my thinking. Now I'll let it drop, so someone get the last word in Peter From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 28 23:39:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06735; Tue, 28 Mar 95 23:39:22 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06730; Tue, 28 Mar 95 18:39:08 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA25931 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:39:01 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199503282339.AA25931@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:39:00 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "John T Stein" at Mar 28, 95 01:24:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 922 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Having lurked around this list for a while I realize that conventional wisdom > considers 1 to 1.5 milliseconds to be the minimum reasonable drive > pulse width for injectors, and that this figure establishes the lower > limit of the injector's dynamic range. > Is this a commonly-used technique to achieve an EFFECTIVE pulse > width of less than 1 millisecond?? Is something more involved going on here?? > Anyone have any similar findings (or opinions)?? > > John Another technique for better operation at light loads is to reduce the fuel pressure - this allows you to keep the pulse width in a known area of operation, while reducing the amount of fuel put through. I'd suggest this would normally only be a high/low pressure - not variable. But hey, what would I know, I'm just an EFI hack ;-) Cheers, Craig. PS to the author of the 'Compleat diy_efi reference' - Well done. (A beta copy of the faq?) From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 00:16:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06801; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:16:14 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06796; Tue, 28 Mar 95 19:16:09 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA081686168; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:16:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:16:08 -0500 From: FMarrone@aol.com Message-Id: <950328191607_64202060@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: The tale of two saturations... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Inductor saturation... An ideal inductor has infinite energy storage capacity and never saturates. A inductor wound on an "air" core approximates the ideal inductor. Unfortunately air has a very low permeability (related to inductance for a given amount of turns) and the current will quickly rise to dangerously high levels even with low applied EMFs. Additionally, in order to store the required amount of energy (were talking spark ignition, right) very high current levels are required in a coil wound on an air core. We get around these problems by introducing some sort of high permeability core material, forms of iron being very popular. I could explain the physics but suffice to say practical high perm materials DO have a limited energy storage capacity and now inductor saturation comes into play. For a coil wound on a ferrous core, the practical maximum energy storage occurs when the material is deep into saturation (in most materials the saturation point is ill defined). Once in saturation the coil behaves as if it were wound on an air core and the current abruptly rises until it is limited by the resistance of the wire in the coil or by the impedance of the driving source (or current limit). To know what current to limit to for reliable ignition you must know the energy level required for said reliability and the inductance of the coil (that ole E = L*I^2 again). In the practical world you should probably go for the gusto and hit that baby with as high a current limit as the components of your system will take. I suppose if you had a lot of time to charge the coil and some trick materials you might melt your plug electrodes but most of us don't have to worry about this problem. Time comes into play as V = L dI/dT. Those who are fond of mathematical gymnastics could combine this and the previous equation and gain some insight to energy storage vs. coil inductance and RPM. Transistor saturation... Vce SAT for most bipolar power transistors range from .2 to 1 volt. Darlington pairs (which are very popular for coil drivers) range from 1 to 2 volts. Power mosfets do not have a saturation voltage but rather a minimum channel resistance and the voltage across their drain and source leads is the product of the applied current and that resistance. Saturation in a bipolar transistor was correctly identified by another DYIer as being a function of current gain and applied base current. There is no first order effects of transistor saturation that has anything to do with rate of change of the collector current (at least not with respect to this discussion). For the range of coil charging currents and transistor quality we are likely to come up against there should be no problem keeping the device in saturation. With some BIG low gain bipolars the base currents required do get pretty high and then the drivers driver dissipation can become an issue. If I were to design an coil driver I would try and drive the base with enough current to keep a bipolar device in saturation over the normal operating range of the primary circuit. Doing this will assure the minimum amount of power dissipation in the driver transistor and make more voltage available for charging the coil. If the characteristics of the coil were such that saturation was unavoidable under some normal operating condition (usually the case) then I would use some sort of current limiting on the driver. I would set this limit point slightly above the expected saturation point of the coil (assuming that this current level is reasonable to pass through the primary circuitry). With the driver I designed, as the coil charges the Vce of the device would remain constant (yes I know, there is a Ic dependence of Vce) until reaching the saturation point. At saturation Vce will rise to whatever voltage is required to keep the primary current at the selected level. Assuming the resistance of the coil and wiring is 1 ohm, the applied voltage is 12 volts and the selected limit current is 6 amps (values selected for integer results, your mileage may vary) the transistor Vce junction will now have 6 volts across it. Since at 6 volts and 6 amps you are dissipating 36 watts in the transistor you better not be spending much time in limit AND you should have adequate heat sinking for the output device. This would be a rather simplistic amplifier and much more sophisticated and efficient ones could be and have been designed. On the other hand it would work just fine and the more sophisticated versions would not store more energy in the coil. I hope I haven't waffled too much. Frank Marrone at fmarrone@optilink.dsccc.com From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 00:20:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06818; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:20:17 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06813; Tue, 28 Mar 95 19:20:13 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA24381; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:20:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:20:10 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503290020.AA24381@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Simple injector Drive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have a question...... I want to (quick) flow test some injectors that I have. I will drive them with with a programmable function generator (TTL out). The injectors are the 16 ohm variety (GM). What is the simplest circuit (FET, etc) that will take the TTL and open the injector safely for a short test and clean time. I am not after a dissertation on the subject, just something that will achive my goal. I have a few MC3484-S4 lying around - should I use one of them, even though the MC3484-S4 is for lower-impedance injectors? I know that something similar has been posted in the past, however, I want the simplest solution (i.e. quick to breadboard) that will get the job done and not harm the injector. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 01:58:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07063; Wed, 29 Mar 95 01:58:50 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07058; Tue, 28 Mar 95 20:58:46 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA116622325; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 20:58:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 20:58:45 -0500 From: FMarrone@aol.com Message-Id: <950328205843_64332391@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: more sat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I suggested that a coil would be come saturated when the >voltage on the collector emitter junction showed a rise to the >Vce sat level. Thinking about it a little more, I may be wrong, >or I may not be. I think you are confused a bit (or I don't understand your statement). Try and think of transistor saturation and inductor saturation as two separate phenomenon. Transistor saturation voltage is a function of collector current and the collector current will rise when the inductor saturates but this is a second order thing and for all practical (DYI EFI) purposes the transistor saturation voltage is constant. >If there is no current drawn through the collector then will >here be a Vce sat voltage? If there is NO current then the voltage is indeed zero but there will always be some small leakage current. If you try and measure the voltage the meter will supply the current. There is also Icbo leakage current. >My original contention was that the transistor goes into >saturation immediately (sic) on application of the drive >current, but the significant Vce sat voltage will not occur until >the coil is fully saturated and there is no change in current >flow. This, because the current and voltage are out >of phase until the coil is saturated. > >What do you think? Vce sat voltage is, by definition, present as soon as the transistor enters saturation. Vce sat IS a function of collector current and will increase as the collector current increases BUT with adequate overdrive this increase is small. Since current gain is also a function of collector current you must be sure to provide enough base drive for adequate overdrive at all currents of interest. You ARE concerned with the Vce sat reliance on collector current in that you choose your device and heatsink for the worst case conditions expected. Frank Marrone at fmarrone@aol.com From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 05:24:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07409; Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:24:45 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07404; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:24:37 -0500 Received: from dialup-4-38.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Mar 95 23:24:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 23:22:41 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17388.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Simple injector Drive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:20:10 -0500, Bruce Bowling wrote: >I have a question...... .. >have a few MC3484-S4 lying around - should I use one >of them, even though the MC3484-S4 is for lower-impedance >injectors? Should work fine. I've done it. You just won't get into the 4 amp range to kick it back to 1 amp. In fact you won't even get 1. It will just flow as much current as it can { (12-Vdrop)/16ohms}. Even though it's a simple circuit, don't forget the big watt Zener diode. I've lazily and stupidly left it out and let the magic smoke out. As long as the magic smoke stays in, electronics work fine. But as soon as you let it out, things just don't seem to work. :-) Later, Matt From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 05:30:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07436; Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:30:44 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07423; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:30:36 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA21763 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:30:27 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA07482 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:27:31 +1000 Message-Id: <199503290527.PAA07482@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Ingition To: DIY_EFI (DIY_EFI ) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:27:28 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2420 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi guys, I'm sorry that I was away for a couple of days earlier this week and managed to miss the igntion driver discussion on line. Thanks to Ed and Frank for providing background info on the topic so that the rest of us can contribute to the discussion from a solid footing. As an ignition system designer, I found the messages comprehensive and enlightening and at the very least, will save much 'waffle' in the future. On the other hand, some of the replies were a bit painful to wade through. Someone asked about the choice of ignition coils. I have used many different types from second-hand oil filled units to current model Delco, Bosch, Ford and Nippondenso units. Dual fire coils are my first choice for the job (as they halve the total number of coils) but I have had to resort to coil per plug systems at times. Obviously, the lower primary impedance coils charge more quickly, but for multi coil system this isn't an issue as they have much more time to charge. Something to note is that the switch-on transient when the coil starts to charge can result in enough voltage drop across the secondary to cause a spark in favourable conditions. Distributor and dual firing systems don't have this problem due to the extra gaps in the secondary circuit. OEM coil-per-plug coils thus incorporate a diode in series with the secondary to stop reverse current flow. Lastly, someone else asked about the hazards of the wasted spark approach. I remembered recently where I had heard of problems. 90 degree V6 engines with only three crank throws fire unevenly 90/150/90/... degrees apart. The wasted spark may fire while a combustable mixture is present in the out-of-phase cylinder. I believe the ignition timing is compromised as a result. Perhaps someone experienced with the Delco controlled Buick 3800 V6, as used in local Holden Commodores, may care to comment. Enough for now. :-) Robert 'trying not to waffle' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 05:42:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07476; Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:42:03 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07471; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:41:44 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA22296 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:41:32 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA07515 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:38:34 +1000 Message-Id: <199503290538.PAA07515@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:38:31 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "John T Stein" at Mar 28, 95 01:24:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1434 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI John writes, > ... > The disquieting aspect of the drive pulse was that while its duration > was constant, the period was varying between about a value of > about 40 milliseconds to one of about 45 milliseconds. Idle spped was > esentially constant. > > Is this a commonly-used technique to achieve an EFFECTIVE pulse > width of less than 1 millisecond?? Is something more involved going on here?? > Anyone have any similar findings (or opinions)?? > > John > John, while the engine speed may appear to be essentially constant, it isn't. A 30 rpm variation is not uncommon between cylinder firings and one would expect much more cycle by cycle. The injection event is crank position dependent and the variation you have described (40 - 45 mS) corresponds to a 750 - 667 rpm variation, assuming one firing per cycle. I don't think anyone uses a variable period (speed independent) method for controlling injection quantity for port injection. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 05:45:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07493; Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:45:37 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07488; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:45:34 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA22445 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:45:25 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA07575 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:42:29 +1000 Message-Id: <199503290542.PAA07575@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Simple injector Drive To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:42:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9503290020.AA24381@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> from "Bruce Bowling" at Mar 28, 95 07:20:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1344 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bruce writes, > > I have a question...... > > I want to (quick) flow test some injectors that I have. I > will drive them with with a programmable function generator > (TTL out). The injectors are the 16 ohm variety (GM). > What is the simplest circuit (FET, etc) that will take > the TTL and open the injector safely for a short test > and clean time. I am not after a dissertation on the > subject, just something that will achive my goal. I > have a few MC3484-S4 lying around - should I use one > of them, even though the MC3484-S4 is for lower-impedance > injectors? > Bruce, the MC3484-S4 will have no problems pulsing high impedence injectors. The injector drivers will simply not reach their current limit which won't harm the injector or driver. The maximum current will be determined by the impedence of the injector, in this case approx 750 mA. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 05:58:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07541; Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:58:46 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07536; Wed, 29 Mar 95 00:58:26 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA22997 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:57:58 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@localhost) by biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA07592 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:54:55 +1000 Message-Id: <199503290554.PAA07592@biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Ion Gap Sense Questions To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:54:54 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <"2578*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> from "Rod Barman" at Mar 24, 95 08:35:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1280 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Rod writes, > > The reason I'm interested in high tension measurement is that it > would make putting the system on an engine with a distributor-based > ignition system possible. > Before I arrived, other researchers in our thermo labs had experimented with various methods of measuring ion-gap voltage by measuring the secondary voltage directly. They got no-where. The spike was enough to zap any protection devices that they had available at the time. I'm not going to bother trying - instead I plan to use one dual fire coil per cylinder with my detection circuit on the unused secondary output. > > >Robert 'it looks like it's time to convert to multiple coils' Dingli > > Any suggestions on what's a suitable available coil for this? > I've got some Delco and Ford (??) dual coils handy. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 12:00:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07926; Wed, 29 Mar 95 12:00:15 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07917; Wed, 29 Mar 95 06:59:13 -0500 Received: from achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (achill [134.169.34.18]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA27298 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:57:19 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA13119 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:57:17 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199503291157.NAA13119@achill.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: On right and wrong To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:57:17 MET DST In-Reply-To: <17053.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 28, 95 11:24:22 am Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > [several lines deleted] > Suggestion: To keep everyone happier, can we limit ourselves to 20 or 30 > lines of 80 character long text most of the time? Well-focused, short > messages are often *so* much more helpful. > > Later, > Matt > I would totally subscribe to this. Esp. the 80 cpl limit seems to make sense, the number of lines will be limited to the absolutely necessary by everyone on this list, I think. Thanks for so much info on this list, Jens. From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 13:08:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08012; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:08:45 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08007; Wed, 29 Mar 95 08:08:41 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA28576 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 08:08:39 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503291308.AA28576@access4.digex.net> Subject: Vce sat To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 08:08:39 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 363 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ignoring the specifics of the saturation of the ignition coil... The Vce(sat) parameter of a transistor is not a reproducible thing and should never be sensed in in any circuit. Use a small resistor in the emitter leg if you want a sense voltage. Vce(sat) is affected by temperature and process lot variations. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 13:48:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08134; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:48:21 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08129; Wed, 29 Mar 95 08:48:19 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA11798; Wed, 29 Mar 95 08:48:41 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA15583; Wed, 29 Mar 95 07:45:40 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA15575; Wed, 29 Mar 95 07:45:33 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA17406; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:46:55 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:46:55 -0600 Message-Id: <9503291346.AA17406@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Magnetic saturation v electronic saturation Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Original letter attached at end (for reference)... An inductor is "saturated" when there is no more flux change in it with increased stimuli. Theoretically, this takes forever. Practically, 15 time constants is sufficient to determine when saturation occurs (I used to use 5 time constants in power electronics work I did some 15 years ago). A transistor is saturated when its base/collector junction is forward biased; I don't know what driving "...a transistor really hard..." means. Vce(sat) is a function of collector current, temperature, and a whole bunch of other esoteric parameters (e.g., doping profile, added impurities -- such as gold -- for decreased electron/hole recombination time, etc.). The "saturated" term comes into play because the driver transistor is used as a class-C amplifier: in steady-state, it's either fully on or fully off. Stated differently, in steady-state it is operated as a binary device. For the purists, I've neglected the (non-linear) transitions from "on" to "off." For those who are REALLY interested, you may consider going to your local technical library and pulling books on magnetic amplifier design. Mag Amps were "hot" research items in the 1950s and 1960s. You'll learn more about inductor saturation than necessary. As for transistor operation in pulse mode, just about any reasonable undergrad textbook on pulse or power electronics will cover this topic. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suggested that a coil would be come saturated when the voltage on the collector emitter junction showed a rise to the Vce sat level. Thinking about it a little more, I may be wrong, or I may not be. If you drive a transistor really hard, then it goes into saturation. If there is no voltage on the collector, there will be no voltage across the emitter - collector junction. If there is no current drawn through the collector then will there be a Vce sat voltage? If a lot of current is drawn, will the Vce sat voltage be the same? My original contention was that the transistor goes into saturation immediately (sic) on application of the drive current, but the significant Vce sat voltage will not occur until the coil is fully saturated and there is no change in current flow. This, because the current and voltage are out of phase until the coil is saturated. What do you think? Peter From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 13:55:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08150; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:55:11 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08145; Wed, 29 Mar 95 08:55:09 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA15509; Wed, 29 Mar 95 08:55:29 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA16247; Wed, 29 Mar 95 07:52:30 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA16211; Wed, 29 Mar 95 07:52:19 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA18289; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:53:42 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:53:42 -0600 Message-Id: <9503291353.AA18289@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Simple injector Drive Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The simplest solution (one I used in a fuel injector firing tool I recently designed) is to use an enhancement mode N-channel MOSFET designed for switching power supplies. This thing can fire a high impedance injector (like yours) practically forever without even warming up (and I'm NOT heat sinking this transistor). Be sure to stick a surge suppression diode across the injector (NOT the transistor) -- I've measured voltage spikes in excess of 500 volts on high impedance Bosch injectors without surge suppressors. I reasonable surge suppressor will be a zener diode rated around 20-40 volts. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a question...... I want to (quick) flow test some injectors that I have. I will drive them with with a programmable function generator (TTL out). The injectors are the 16 ohm variety (GM). What is the simplest circuit (FET, etc) that will take the TTL and open the injector safely for a short test and clean time. I am not after a dissertation on the subject, just something that will achive my goal. I have a few MC3484-S4 lying around - should I use one of them, even though the MC3484-S4 is for lower-impedance injectors? I know that something similar has been posted in the past, however, I want the simplest solution (i.e. quick to breadboard) that will get the job done and not harm the injector. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 14:32:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08300; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:32:47 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AB08295; Wed, 29 Mar 95 09:32:44 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25008; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:32:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:32:42 -0500 From: bowling@cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503291432.AA25008@cebaf4.cebaf.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Software tools Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > 2.4 Simulation Tools > An interface to matlab for simulation was suggested by ???? Interfacing to MATLAB is trivial. My dynamic engine simulation is almost ready for "beta" release to everyone. I will release it after I put in the cam lift profile and corresponding flow rates. > 3.2 Engine Control Algorithms > Higher level control strategy: map / equation / adaptive?? I have enough information to implement a form of the high-level controls. I will start this when the engine simulation is finished. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 18:20:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10826; Wed, 29 Mar 95 18:20:25 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10821; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:20:18 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA06621 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:20:07 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA17827; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:19:20 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA273591306; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:21:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:02:36 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Simple injector Drive To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bruce Bowling wanted to know: >The injectors are the 16 ohm variety (GM). >What is the simplest circuit (FET, etc) that will take >the TTL and open the injector safely for a short test >and clean time. Others have suggested good drive circuits. Personally, I go to Radio Shack and get a TIP120 power darlington and a 4.7K ohm resistor. Run the TTL output into the resistor and then into the base of the TIP120. Emitter of the TIP120 should be grounded and the collector goes to the injector (with 12 volts on the far side of the injector). There is no need for a flyback diode or other protection as the TIP120 can handle repeated inductive kicks of up to 60mJ due to internal protection. I don't recall needing a heat sink even when running for extended periods of time at 50% duty cycle. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The waffles stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 18:54:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11331; Wed, 29 Mar 95 18:54:15 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11326; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:54:06 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA08430 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:47:44 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA18015; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:41:58 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA290722663; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:44:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:15:27 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: Chrysler vehicle LAN To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Bill Lewis wanted to know what the deal was with the in-car network Chrysler uses in its minivan for communications between controllers. I can't say for sure, but I'll bet it's the Chrysler "C-squared D" system. C^2D stands for "Chrysler Collision Detection" or something else I can't remember. What it is is your basic Carrier Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection (CSMA/CD) protocol. It runs out of a normal serial port (i.e. serial, asynchronous XMT/RCV lines from the processor, not a full RS-232 serial port) with a glue chip developed by Chrysler that handles the hardware interface. The full C^2D spec defines the hardware level (using this special chip which I'm sure could be duplicated with discrete componenets by your typical DIYer), the baud rate, and the communications protocol, including headers, ID numbering for different types of nodes, checksums, and back-off algorithm. Basically (and my memory here is bound to be off), everything on the net is sitting around waiting for a character to appear at its serial port. All RCV lines are listening to the one communication bus line (through the glue chip). All XMT lines are also tied to the same line, but they are open-collector or something through the glue chip so they don't affect it unless they are trying to transmit. Anyone who sends a message can verify that it was sent properly by watching it come in through its own RCV line and checking the checksum. You could certainly do a master/slave protocol with this, but I recall the intent was to let anyone talk at any time. Fortunately, Chrysler wrote a nice SAE paper describing the system in detail. Sure wish I could remember the paper number. The C^2D network first appeared on the C-body (Dynasty), as I recall. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The pancakes stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 19:27:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11412; Wed, 29 Mar 95 19:27:05 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11407; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:26:07 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA09406 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:14:33 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA18121; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:57:21 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA008463586; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:59:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:37:44 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Craig Pugsley suggested: >Another technique for better operation at light loads is to >reduce the fuel pressure This would allow you to run longer injector pulse widths and stay out of the non-linear region, to be sure. However, note that your fuel atomization will suffer. This could cause worse operation at light loads. Just a trade-off to be aware of... Yet another technique is, of course, to use two injectors per cylinder. Use one small injector alone for the low-load stuff and kick in the other at higher loads. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The french toast stated above is mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 19:43:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11558; Wed, 29 Mar 95 19:43:30 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11553; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:43:27 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <168227-3>; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:45:02 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10369; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:38:12 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma010367; Wed Mar 29 14:38:04 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18769; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:23:50 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA24314; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:43:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:43:12 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9503291943.AA24314@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Driving an MSD Ignition Box Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI For my purposes the recent discussion of driving a coil is of limited use because I already have an MSD Ignition amp which I will be using. The MSD box can be triggered by points (as it is now), or by a hall effect sensor. Does anyone know how to interface MSD to the DIY controller? Mike P.S. It's an MSD 6M-2 (Marine) if that matters. P.P.S. Since Summit sells the MSD 6A for $120US, is it really worth worrying about how to DIY the ignition driver? Odds are that by the time you get a driver that works as well as an MSD, you'll have invested WAY more than $120. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 19:56:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11594; Wed, 29 Mar 95 19:56:26 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11589; Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:56:23 -0500 Received: from pm1_16.magicnet.net (pm1_16.magicnet.net [204.96.116.66]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA20219; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:58:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199503291958.OAA20219@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:39:22 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Simple injector Drive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Is there some reason why you don't just put 12 v across them. That is the way they work in the car at full throttle so they will be ok on the bench as long as there is gas going through them. Peter From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 20:18:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11851; Wed, 29 Mar 95 20:18:49 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA11846; Wed, 29 Mar 95 15:18:44 -0500 Received: from pm1_14.magicnet.net (pm1_14.magicnet.net [204.96.116.64]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA21671; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:21:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199503292021.PAA21671@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:01:43 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: The tale of two saturations... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Love the title Frank! I'm getting lots of theory behind ignition drivers, but not the answer to the question. I obviously phrased the question badly so let me try again. Firstly, I think we all agree that when a transistor is driven into saturation it has a Vce sat voltage, size doesn't matter (so they tell me) Secondly, when a coil has 12v across it for a significant time (say 1 sec) it's as saturated as its going to get with that voltage across it. This is defined by the faxt that the current is not changing and the current is proportional to the flux. Now, the diagram | ---| | | | | | |_____|-----| A B C D A-B is steady state, no current through the coil. B-C has the coil "charging" and then C-D, the current is steady and no further increase in flux will occur. OK, the question is, what is happening at C where the voltage on the collector WRT 0v rises by 1-2v typically a Vce sat voltage. My original hypothesis stated that it was the Vce sat voltage, it just didn't show until the coil saturated. Is this right, and if so, could it be used? Back to you guys Peter From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 20:36:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12116; Wed, 29 Mar 95 20:36:29 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12111; Wed, 29 Mar 95 15:36:22 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00863 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:52:46 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29122; Wed, 29 Mar 95 12:37:12 PST From: nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9503292037.AA29122@suns.chinalake.navy.mil> Subject: Needed: Digital circuit to monitor rpm and advance To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:37:11 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 341 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I'm looking for a circuit to measure rpm and instantaneous ign advance accurately. I have an old analog circuit/device for this but the accuracy isn't adequate. { It must be really nice to have a dyno and equipment and not have to improvise and do the tweaking on the road :-) } Thanks for the help cat nasa@suns.chinalake.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 21:34:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12571; Wed, 29 Mar 95 21:34:52 GMT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA12566; Wed, 29 Mar 95 16:34:49 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyjfa18178; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:34:31 -0500 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA02246; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:35:41 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002243; Wed Mar 29 15:35:31 1995 Received: from optilink.com (optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA22072 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:35:30 -0600 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.com with smtp id m0ru5NO-0002O3C; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:34 PST Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0ru5MA-002Oa1C; Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:32 PST From: "Frank_Marrone" Message-Id: <9503291332.ZM1717@montreal> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:32:50 -0800 In-Reply-To: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) "Re: The tale of two saturations..." (Mar 29, 3:01pm) References: <199503292021.PAA21671@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.1 23feb94) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: The tale of two saturations... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mar 29, 3:01pm, Peter Wales wrote: > Subject: Re: The tale of two saturations... > > Secondly, when a coil has 12v across it for a significant time (say 1 sec) > it's as saturated as its going to get with that voltage across it. This is > defined by the faxt that the current is not changing and the current is > proportional to the flux. > > Now, the diagram > | > ---| | > | | > | | > |_____|-----| > A B C D > > A-B is steady state, no current through the coil. B-C has the coil > "charging" and then C-D, the current is steady and no further increase in > flux will occur. > > OK, the question is, what is happening at C where the voltage on the > collector WRT 0v rises by 1-2v typically a Vce sat voltage. > > My original hypothesis stated that it was the Vce sat voltage, it just > didn't show until the coil saturated. Is this right, and if so, could it be > used? > Peter I'm not sure where the diagram came from but let me offer a few hypothesis... The transistor is in saturation during charging (B to C) and the voltage is in the .25 to .5 volt range which would be consistant for a non-darlington coil driver. There are two (at least) possibilities for the period from C to D... 1. The coil has saturated and the current has risen abruptly and is limited by a ballast resistor or the impedence of the wiring and the coil windings. The base drive is not large enough to keep the transistor in saturation at this limiting current and the Vce voltage has risen accordingly. 2. There is solid state limiting, the coil has saturated and the voltage noted from B to C is the new Vce required to keep the current in the primary at the specified limit value. The Vce voltage need only rise to a value where the remainder of the supply voltage can not induce a current in the rest of the primary circuit above the specified limit value. I'd like to clarify that in a typical automotive coil, not only will the coil be as saturated as it will ever get after a 1 second application of battery voltage but it is as saturated as it will ever get period regardless of applied voltage. Another way to think of inductor saturation is that it happens at a specified volt second product (V*dt) and you can't determine if an inductor will saturate or not without knowledge of both quantities. Purists will note that even after the iron core has saturated there is additional energy stored and flux increase in the air core (assuming the current is free to rise unchecked) but this is negligeable with respect to the energy in the iron. Correction: There was an error in my original post E = 1/2 * L * I^2 not E = L * I^2 sorry. -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 29 22:35:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13171; Wed, 29 Mar 95 22:35:27 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13166; Wed, 29 Mar 95 17:35:23 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA17139 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:31:20 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA19899; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:27:11 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA084256174; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:29:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 13:56:07 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Typical coil charge times To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Someone, I think it was Bill Lewis (my stupid mail program tossed the message), wanted to know if distributorless systems took advantage of the additional charge time, perhaps for the purpose of using cheaper coils. The writer also inquired about "typical" charge times. I don't have an answer for anything in production. I can say that when I was working on ignition systems at school having a distributorless system, or specifically a multiple-coil system, allowed me to take advantage of larger dwell angles (i.e. hit higher RPM's) than I would have with a conventional distributor. The important difference is the multiple coils, though, not the lack of a distributor per se (an old Mercury outboard motor I worked on had two coils and a distributor to allow increased dwell at high RPMs). The system I developed at school aimed for a coil current of 10A (using a coil pack from a Dodge Spirit R/T). The charge rate was 1.4A/msec, so I would charge for at least 7msec. Current limiting circuitry took care of any excess time. Through experimentation I had determined that with that coil/drive circuitry/wires/plugs combination, just under 4 msec was the minimum time I needed to reliably fire a spark with the plugs out of the engine. In the engine with 12:1 compression and swirling fuel and air I figured I was going to need more. How much more, I don't really know and never really got to test, but I do know that the engine would comfortably achieve 11,000 RPM without breaking up which would have been just about 4.0 msec of charge time. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The crepes a l'orange stated above are mine, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 30 01:31:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13678; Thu, 30 Mar 95 01:31:31 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13673; Wed, 29 Mar 95 20:31:29 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0ru94b-000Cv5C; Wed, 29 Mar 95 19:30 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Simple injector Drive To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 19:30:57 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503291958.OAA20219@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 29, 95 02:39:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 845 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales writes: > > > Is there some reason why you don't just put 12 v across them. That is the > way they work in the car at full throttle so they will be ok on the bench as > long as there is gas going through them. Uhhhhhh, there is a reason why injectors have a minimum offtime and a maximum duty cycle. You put a constant 12V on a Rochestor injector and it will get *HOT*, and melt the windings, even with fuel flowing through them. I toasted a nice 33lb/hr MSD injector this way... (had tried to put a scope on the injector, it pulled ground through the scope). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 30 02:19:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13778; Thu, 30 Mar 95 02:19:39 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA13773; Wed, 29 Mar 95 21:19:31 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA21617 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:19:28 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199503300219.AA21617@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:19:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Mar 29, 95 01:37:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1087 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ed suggested : > > Yet another technique is, of course, to use two injectors per > cylinder. Use one small injector alone for the low-load stuff > and kick in the other at higher loads. > This is exactly the technique that we have resorted to for high flow rotary applications. The injectors found on factory Mazda 13B efi motors are huge - they flow 2-3 times the volume of 'normal' injectors. Even so, this is not enough for race motors and turbo applications. We use two injectors per rotor with the second bank staged so that they are completly closed during idle and only start to open at higher loads. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 30 03:32:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14069; Thu, 30 Mar 95 03:32:40 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14063; Wed, 29 Mar 95 22:32:18 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA25727 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:32:04 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199503300332.AA25727@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Changing injector pulse rate at idle? To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:32:03 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503300219.AA21617@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 30, 95 12:19:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1617 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi people, > Ed suggested : > > > > Yet another technique is, of course, to use two injectors per > > cylinder. Use one small injector alone for the low-load stuff > > and kick in the other at higher loads. > > > > This is exactly the technique that we have resorted to for high flow > rotary applications. The injectors found on factory Mazda 13B efi > motors are huge - they flow 2-3 times the volume of 'normal' injectors. > Even so, this is not enough for race motors and turbo applications. > We use two injectors per rotor with the second bank staged so that > they are completly closed during idle and only start to open at higher > loads. Aaah.. Injected rotarys - now THAT grabs my interest :-) This multi injector concept is going to be integral with the PP13B project I'm working on... There's a huge range in the fuel flow for these beasties. Is the idea to have injectors of the same size, or a small & a big one? Also, when it's in transition between single and dual injectors,how do you split the time each one is on for? EG 1. Does the primary injector increase in time, until it is 100% on & then the secondary inj progresses on from there. OR 2. Does the primary injector handle light loads, then when a certain on time/duty cycle is reached, the secondary injector is run in parallell with the primary (ie IDENTICAL timing) Presumably in any situation with staged injectors the user would only have to adjust the fuel 'on' time & they would be oblivious to how the timing of multiple injectors per port is handled. An ascii diagram might explain it the best. Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 30 04:27:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14335; Thu, 30 Mar 95 04:27:51 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14330; Wed, 29 Mar 95 23:27:48 -0500 Message-Id: <9503300427.AA14330@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: [forw] Re: Ingition Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 23:27:48 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI ------- Forwarded Message Received: from mv.MV.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/lib/mh/slocal -user jsg id