From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 12:09:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20065; Mon, 1 May 95 12:09:23 GMT Received: from oeonline.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20051; Mon, 1 May 95 08:09:20 -0400 Received: by oeonline.oeonline.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0s5u9L-000EgXC; Mon, 1 May 95 08:00 EDT Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 07:59:57 -400 (EDT) From: Mike Wesley - SLIP Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9504270234.AA22319@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Garrett McWilliams wrote: > Steve wrote: > >The upstream temp sensor in the hot wire sensor isn't there to measure > >the actual temperature of the incoming air but to determine the change > >in temperature between the heating element and the detection element. > >A simplified mass flow meter would consist of two sensors, one upstream > >and one downstream of the heating element. You would expect the down > >stream element to be warmer than the upstream one because of the (heat > >carrying) mass going in that direction. > >So the difference in heating at the sensor is proportional to the mass > >flow rate. > > > > > I had thought the MAF sensor measured how much current it took to keep > the heated wire at a constant temperature, i.e. more air going through cools > it off more -> more current to maintain temp of the wire. Is this also used > or am I way off base? > > Garrett McWilliams > Absolutely correct! Mike... From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 13:02:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20175; Mon, 1 May 95 13:02:59 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20161; Mon, 1 May 95 09:02:55 -0400 Received: from pm1_21.magicnet.net (pm1_21.magicnet.net [204.96.116.71]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27810 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 09:02:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199505011302.JAA27810@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 07:41:25 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Turbos Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Giles, If I were you I would take a serious look at the Metro Turbo and see what it has that your car doesn't. I think that putting a turbo on an engine with a compression ratio of 10.5:1 and a management system with no knock sensor is asking for meltdown. The only way to get it to work would be to run such a low boost pressure that the effort would not be worth it. If you were to use a Metro head and turbo, most of the the work would be done, or better still, off to the breakers and get a complete engine and fit that. Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 14:35:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20510; Mon, 1 May 95 14:35:57 GMT Received: from pmafire.INEL.GOV by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20496; Mon, 1 May 95 10:35:54 -0400 Received: by pmafire.inel.gov (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA219208952; Mon, 1 May 1995 08:35:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 08:35:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Is a MAF based system going to be easier to calibrate than a speed- density system? Also, what sort of aftermarket engine management systems are there for old V8s (I won a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport) ? I would really like to get a system that has knock and oxygen sensor feedback, spark control and throttle body injection. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 00:50:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23916; Tue, 2 May 95 00:50:09 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23902; Mon, 1 May 95 20:50:00 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA26559 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 2 May 1995 10:49:28 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505020049.KAA26559@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Turbos To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:49:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199505011302.JAA27810@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at May 1, 95 07:41:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1501 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Giles, I second Peter's comments. 10.5:1 is way to high to do anything with a turbo on such an ancient head design (unless you wanted to run on methane :-) Locally, it's much cheaper to go and guy a second hand factory turbo engine ($650-$1500 Aus for an imported used Japanese engine) than it is to buy a new turbo and wastegate ($1400 + $600). Unless the factory engine won't fit, it's going to be much less work to fit it than retrofit a turbo. Peter writes, > If I were you I would take a serious look at the Metro Turbo and see what it > has that your car doesn't. > > I think that putting a turbo on an engine with a compression ratio of 10.5:1 > and a management system with no knock sensor is asking for meltdown. The > only way to get it to work would be to run such a low boost pressure that > the effort would not be worth it. > > If you were to use a Metro head and turbo, most of the the work would be > done, or better still, off to the breakers and get a complete engine and fit > that. > > Peter Wales Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 03:37:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24140; Tue, 2 May 95 03:37:22 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24126; Mon, 1 May 95 23:37:19 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s68lo-000CydC; Mon, 1 May 95 22:37 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Turbos To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 22:37:08 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199505020049.KAA26559@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at May 2, 95 10:49:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 987 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > Giles, > > I second Peter's comments. 10.5:1 is way to high to do anything with a turbo > on such an ancient head design (unless you wanted to run on methane :-) Actually, even methane (or good CNG) isn't a good option... once you get over about 10.5:1 effective compression, methane burns hotter than gasoline... and it already burns significantly slower than gasoline. The result is ridiculous EGT's. I've heard that 14:1-14.4:1 is the limit for a naturally aspirated methane fueled engine because you start melting the plasma off the top compression ring... not sure how that would translate for a boosted engine. You can make more power with 114 octane high-lead race gas, anyway. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 05:23:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24295; Tue, 2 May 95 05:23:31 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24273; Tue, 2 May 95 01:22:09 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id PAA08662 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:21:41 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505020521.PAA08662@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Turbos and CNG To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 15:21:40 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathan R. Lusky" at May 1, 95 10:37:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1957 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jonathan writes, > > Actually, even methane (or good CNG) isn't a good option... once you > get over about 10.5:1 effective compression, methane burns hotter than > gasoline... and it already burns significantly slower than gasoline. > The result is ridiculous EGT's. I've heard that 14:1-14.4:1 is the > limit for a naturally aspirated methane fueled engine because you start > melting the plasma off the top compression ring... not sure how that > would translate for a boosted engine. You can make more power with 114 > octane high-lead race gas, anyway. This is an interesting subject although I didn't mention methane as a serious alternative to petrol to allow Giles to run 10.5:1 + turbo. I haven't heard of melting plasma of compression rings but our research CNG engines have been running at 16:1 for a couple of years now. The engine I personally worked with was installed in a stationary application driving a heat pump. It ran for over 2500 hours before being dismantled and checked by engineers at Ford's engine labs. It had barely worn and they didn't even bother to change the bearings. The same engine design has run for months in taxi cabs with better performance than the original petrol engine. I suppose it comes down to good optimized engine design. From memory the octane rating (RON) of methane is 130 although I'm sure somebody's textbook out there will say something different. :-) Robert 'now working with hydrogen assisted petrol engines' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 07:52:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24505; Tue, 2 May 95 07:52:45 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24491; Tue, 2 May 95 03:52:38 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA24738; Tue, 2 May 95 09:52:45 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 May 95 09:52:45 +0200 Message-Id: <9505020752.AA24738@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: RE: Turbos and CNG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! I am dealing with a EFI project on hobby time. It is about changing the blown L-jetronic injection on a friends Alfa Romeo 75 V6 3.0 to a custom made EFI. I've built a board with a 68HC11 controller that can control the 6 Injectors. The board reads the voltage from the manifold airflow meter and converts it to a duty-cycle controlled signal that is fed to the injectors. The engine starts but runs on fat mixture. That's all for the moment. The question is, does anyone have algorithms on engine control, maybe in Ansi C (I have used an assembler but just bought an IAR HC11 C-compiler), either general ones or especially for the HC11. I would be very glad and thankfull if anyone could help me... Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Analytical Chemistry / Lund University Box 124 S-221 00 LUND SWEDEN Email: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 08:25:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24558; Tue, 2 May 95 08:25:44 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24541; Tue, 2 May 95 04:24:55 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP(5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA24806; Tue, 2 May 95 09:53:25 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 May 95 09:53:25 +0200 Message-Id: <9505020753.AA24806@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: EFI with 68HC11 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! I am dealing with a EFI project on hobby time. It is about changing the blown L-jetronic injection on a friends Alfa Romeo 75 V6 3.0 to a custom made EFI. I've built a board with a 68HC11 controller that can control the 6 Injectors. The board reads the voltage from the manifold airflow meter and converts it to a duty-cycle controlled signal that is fed to the injectors. The engine starts but runs on fat mixture. That's all for the moment. The question is, does anyone have algorithms on engine control, maybe in Ansi C (I have used an assembler but just bought an IAR HC11 C-compiler), either general ones or especially for the HC11. I would be very glad and thankfull if anyone could help me... Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Analytical Chemistry / Lund University Box 124 S-221 00 LUND SWEDEN Email: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 23:34:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27635; Tue, 2 May 95 23:34:19 GMT Received: from ccvcom.auckland.ac.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA27621; Tue, 2 May 95 19:34:04 -0400 Received: from elenovgate1.auckland.ac.nz by ccvcom.auckland.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-7 #2864) id <01HQ29AGL33K8X84EF@ccvcom.auckland.ac.nz>; Wed, 3 May 1995 10:01:15 GMT+1200 Received: From ELENOV1/WORKQUEUE by elenovgate1.auckland.ac.nz via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950503095129.352; 03 May 95 10:02:05 +1200 Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 09:51:01 +0000 From: Uncle Pervy Subject: Car Microcomputers To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Organization: University of Auckland X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 20:19:45 +1000 From: choward@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Chris Howard) Subject: Re: Car Microcomputers To: wonggt@elenov1.auckland.ac.nz Organization: The University of Sydney Can anybody out there with information on car microcomputers? I want to know how to program them and fuel curves,maps etc. Any web sites or FAQ would be most useful. Ive got a mission to modify a Mazda 323 4wd turbo. But if i stuff it up im not to worried because its not mine. Somebody gave your address to me and said you may be able to help. Thanks Ed uNCLE pERVY email : wonggt@elenov1.auckland.ac.nz From owner-diy_efi Thu May 4 16:34:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04268; Thu, 4 May 95 16:34:53 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04254; Thu, 4 May 95 12:34:50 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0s73rT-0009qHC; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0s73rS-000uNkC; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34:45 CDT Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:33:42 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: looking for Scott (Dig) Bartholomay To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry to take up the groups space, but I couldn't get scott's email address. Scott, email me if you get this, and consider putting your email address on your web page :-) --steve sravet@bangate.compaq.com From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 16:03:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10062; Fri, 5 May 95 16:03:58 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA10048; Fri, 5 May 95 12:03:54 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0s7Pr7-0009q7C; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0s7Pr5-000uUTC; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03:48 CDT Date: Fri, 5 May 95 11:03:21 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: Re: Alternate software appro To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jack Mott Wrote: | | Andrew Dennison has made it clear that free DOS-based tools for the BDM | already exist. Where could I find a GNU C compiler available for DOS? (I | don't need gdb.) DJ Delorie has ported GNU tools to DOS, including a 32 bit DOS extender, etc. Look for djgpp on any of the standard ftp sites (oak.oakland.edu, gatekeeper.dec.com, any other simtel archive). --steve From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 20:25:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11036; Fri, 5 May 95 20:25:25 GMT Received: from slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11022; Fri, 5 May 95 16:25:22 -0400 Received: from sparky.Mines.Colorado.EDU by slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49802; Fri, 5 May 1995 14:25:46 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:25:46 -0600 Message-Id: <9505052025.AA49802@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU> X-Sender: mtaylor@slate.mines.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: mtaylor@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (Mike Taylor) Subject: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! See ya, Mike mtaylor@mines.colorado.edu From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 21:46:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11336; Fri, 5 May 95 21:46:06 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11322; Fri, 5 May 95 17:46:02 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA09482; Fri, 5 May 95 17:45:32 EDT Message-Id: <9505052145.AA09482@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 17:48:16 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Hi there, > I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find >information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to Not a clue... Jon Lusky seems to have quite a bit of expertise in this area though.. >implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust >temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. >feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! You would probably be better off with the O2 sensor.. Unless you are monitoring at each cylinder, you will get an average temp... One could be running at 1800 deg, while 7 could be at 1000 degrees... The one will melt something, while the others are too rich. The O2sensor would catch this a little sooner IMHO Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 23:02:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11456; Fri, 5 May 95 23:02:21 GMT Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11442; Fri, 5 May 95 19:02:18 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ5EGCS100C6MTM9@ARIEL.GI.COM>; Fri, 05 May 1995 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAAAE48@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Fri, 05 May 95 16:01:28 PDT Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 16:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: air-fuel ratio to temp To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAAAE48@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 24 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have tuned Weber carbs using the exhaust temp method. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe that you want the temp to be around 1400 deg F under full throttle conditions. Bryan Zublin ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: DIY_EFI Subject: air-fuel ratio to temp Date: Friday, May 05, 1995 2:25PM Hi there, I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! See ya, Mike mtaylor@mines.colorado.edu From owner-diy_efi Sat May 6 01:12:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11770; Sat, 6 May 95 01:12:40 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11756; Fri, 5 May 95 21:12:37 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ5IVDLPVKC6MPS4@ARIEL.GI.COM>; Fri, 05 May 1995 18:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAACBF9@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Fri, 05 May 95 18:08:09 PDT Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 18:06:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAACBF9@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 39 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Charles, I believe that a MAF based system would be easier to calibrate compared to a speed density design (I have never confirmed this). If you have the calibration curve of the MAF meter (volts output vs. kg/hr mass flow) and the flow rate of the injectors (cc/min), then it should be a relatively simply process to determine the injector pulse width based on the air-fuel ratio that you want. I would be willing to bet that this first order approximation will be good enough to get the engine to run fairly well. Of course, second order enrichment factors will have to be applied for startup, idle, acceleration, etc. I have measured the steady state average flow rate of the injectors that I have. This is fairly easy. Does anyone on the list have calibration curves for the MAF meters used on the Ford vehicles (specifically the one used on the 5.0 L Mustang, made by Hitachi)? Bryan Zublin General Instrument, San Diego, CA, USA bzublin@po2.gi.com ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map Date: Monday, May 01, 1995 8:35AM Is a MAF based system going to be easier to calibrate than a speed- density system? Also, what sort of aftermarket engine management systems are there for old V8s (I won a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport) ? I would really like to get a system that has knock and oxygen sensor feedback, spark control and throttle body injection. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Sat May 6 03:06:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11906; Sat, 6 May 95 03:06:52 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11892; Fri, 5 May 95 23:06:49 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07920; Fri, 5 May 95 21:06:48 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13579; Fri, 5 May 95 21:06:43 MDT Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 21:06:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Throttle Plate Control To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 07:39:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16522; Mon, 8 May 95 07:39:49 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA16508; Mon, 8 May 95 03:39:45 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA21772; Mon, 8 May 95 09:39:32 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 May 95 09:39:32 +0200 Message-Id: <9505080739.AA21772@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do >the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate >this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under >computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? > >Charles Mott > > SAAB (Sweden) uses such a method on the 9000. They have a servo motor+microprocessor controling the throttle angle. They use it for the Anti Spin system and for the Cruise control. I have even seen it on a small motorcycle (!), on an Aprilia (Italy), 125cc two-stroke with 33 bhp, some kind of technique to prevent you from "chocking" the engine at low revs, when you use full throttle. Ok, I would n't like to drive a car with this system, knowing that something m i g h t go wrong, it's still safer with a direct mechanical connection, airplane manufacturers (Airbus) use this technique though. George Siotis Analytisk Kemi Lunds Universitet Box 124 221 00 LUND E-mail: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 10:47:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16996; Mon, 8 May 95 10:47:30 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA16982; Mon, 8 May 95 06:47:04 -0400 Received: from bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (bal [134.169.34.11]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA18780 for ; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:46:55 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id MAA19600 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:46:54 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505081046.MAA19600@bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:46:52 MET DST In-Reply-To: from "Jack Mott" at May 5, 95 09:06:43 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > > Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do > the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate > this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under > computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? > > Charles Mott > > Mercedes Benz and (I think) BMW use such an "acceerate by wire" system. Advantage is that it makes tempomat cruising easier. Due to a book on car tuning, the disadvantage is that tuning such an electronic throttle system is not easy to tune up. Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 15:18:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17541; Mon, 8 May 95 15:18:33 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17527; Mon, 8 May 95 11:18:29 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQ99CRKH1C001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Mon, 8 May 1995 10:18:14 CDT Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 22:26:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Throttle Plate Control To: diy_efi Message-Id: <123887.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected -> do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might -> mandate this.) The first auto "drive by wire" systems were developed for rear-engine buses, actually. -> Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle -> valve under computer control? Various Delco and Bosch "traction control" rigs do this, notably on Corvettes and Cadillacs. -> Would there be any advantages to doing this? Sure, as long as you're sure the guy who wrote the software knows more about your driving than you do. I prefer to control my own throttle, thank you. ==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us=========================DoD# 978======= From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 16:32:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17709; Mon, 8 May 95 16:32:43 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17695; Mon, 8 May 95 12:32:40 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09775; Mon, 8 May 95 10:32:39 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20277; Mon, 8 May 95 10:32:38 MDT Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 10:32:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9505052145.AA09482@merlin.nando.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 5 May 1995, David Cooley wrote: > ... > You would probably be better off with the O2 sensor.. Unless you are > monitoring at each cylinder, you will get an average temp... One could be > running at 1800 deg, while 7 could be at 1000 degrees... The one will melt > something, while the others are too rich. The O2sensor would catch this a > little sooner IMHO In the situation that Mr. Cooley writes about, will the oxygen sensor give a low reading (because the rich running cylinders are eating up all the O2)? What time constants do typical 02 sensors exhibit? What physics / chemistry is involved? And finally, do any sensors (O2 or otherwise) have the time resolution to detect properties of individual exhaust pulses? I would think even a pressure sensor might be useful. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 16:42:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17878; Mon, 8 May 95 16:42:49 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17864; Mon, 8 May 95 12:42:46 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ983SBCY8C6M2XM@ARIEL.GI.COM>; Mon, 08 May 1995 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAE4A09@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Mon, 08 May 95 09:42:49 PDT Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:42:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: FW: Throttle Plate Control To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAE4A09@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 22 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I believe that one of the first vehicles to have this "drive by wire" throttle control was the BMW 750iL, first produced in the late 1980s. I can't recall any other specific vehicles that have this, although there must be some. The cars with traction control using the throttle may have "drive by wire." BZ Bryan Zublin bzublin@po2.gi.com ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: diy_efi Subject: Throttle Plate Control Date: Friday, May 05, 1995 9:06PM Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 17:06:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17949; Mon, 8 May 95 17:06:28 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17935; Mon, 8 May 95 13:06:23 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10653 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 8 May 1995 13:06:18 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA23427; Mon, 8 May 1995 13:05:19 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA273902311; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:58:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:56:32 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Dave Williams wrote: >-> Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle >-> valve under computer control? > > Various Delco and Bosch "traction control" rigs do this, notably on >Corvettes and Cadillacs. No Cadillac ever produced, including current production, has had a fly-by-wire throttle. Traction control is accomplished by engine torque modulation coupled with selective brake application. I am also unaware of any production Corvette with a fly-by-wire throttle. >-> Would there be any advantages to doing this? > > Sure, as long as you're sure the guy who wrote the software knows more >about your driving than you do. Sometimes they don't, sometimes they do :). ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 18:34:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18167; Mon, 8 May 95 18:34:15 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18153; Mon, 8 May 95 14:34:11 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA20911; Mon, 8 May 95 14:32:25 EDT Message-Id: <9505081832.AA20911@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 14:36:10 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >In the situation that Mr. Cooley writes about, will the oxygen sensor give >a low reading (because the rich running cylinders are eating up all the >O2)? What time constants do typical 02 sensors exhibit? What physics / >chemistry is involved? And finally, do any sensors (O2 or otherwise) have >the time resolution to detect properties of individual exhaust pulses? I >would think even a pressure sensor might be useful. > >Charles Mott Charles, If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous response once it is up to temp. The sensors "switch" from lean to rich and back again quite a few times a second as the mixture changes. This would give you the ability to tune individual cylinders on the fly. Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 18:51:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18203; Mon, 8 May 95 18:51:28 GMT Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18189; Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:25 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA02137; Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:20 EDT Date: Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:20 EDT Message-Id: <9505081851.AA02137@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous > response once it is up to temp. Interesting. When I started tuning my supercharged Rx7 I was told (by a guy who builds special test engines for Cartech) that the O2 sensor responds too slow for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. One thing I noticed the other day while blasting up a hill the engine started to detonate, yet the O2 sensor was still reading rich. I immediately backed off and eased the car up in boost. Sure enough, the O2 sensor started reading lean. Later Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 22:48:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19151; Mon, 8 May 95 22:48:12 GMT Received: from asi1.anutech.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19137; Mon, 8 May 95 18:48:05 -0400 Received: (from hugh@localhost) by asi1.anutech.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA27869; Tue, 9 May 1995 09:09:13 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:09:13 +60000 From: "H. Blemings" Subject: Re: BMW 750iL To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <2FAE4A09@gismtpgate.gi.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 8 May 1995, Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS) wrote: > I believe that one of the first vehicles to have this "drive by wire" > throttle control was the BMW 750iL, first produced in the late 1980s. I > can't recall any other specific vehicles that have this, although there must > be some. The cars with traction control using the throttle may have "drive > by wire." BZ I was lucky enough to at least sit in one of these cars, they were a beautiful sounding V12. The thing I though was rather neat was that to start the engine you simply toggled the key to the start position and released it, the EFI automatically cranked the engine till it fired and bought it up to a comfortable idle. I'm not sure if this has been done on other vehicles but it was certainly an impressive bit of engineering. There was also a story around at the time that told of when the mechanics were being trained in Germany, the instructor would start the engine and comment on how smooth the engine sounded. Then he would re-enable the other bank of cylinders :) Nice motor car. Cheers, Hugh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Blemings | email : hugh@asi1.anutech.com.au | phone : 015 485558 / +61 15 485558 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Proverbs 3:5,6 - Read The Book for further details :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 03:53:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19887; Tue, 9 May 95 03:53:33 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19873; Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:29 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail508.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA03067; Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:04 EDT Date: Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:04 EDT Message-Id: <9505090353.AA03067@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >> If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous >> response once it is up to temp. > >Interesting. When I started tuning my supercharged Rx7 I was told (by a guy who >builds special test engines for Cartech) that the O2 sensor responds too slow >for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Maybe he wants to sell you a motor! >One thing I noticed the other day while blasting up a hill the engine started to >detonate, yet the O2 sensor was still reading rich. I immediately backed off >and eased the car up in boost. Sure enough, the O2 sensor started reading lean. Well... Mixture being rich won't keep a motor with too much advance/compression/hotspots in the combustion chamber from pinging.. The computer did it's job though.. as you back off the gas, it should go lean. All the guys on the syclone and GN list use O2 sensors to tune and monitor their runs by.. The ones that have used a EGT have melted pistons before the thermocouple responded enough to register danger. Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, but there is no way of knowing exactly how much. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 09:09:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20357; Tue, 9 May 95 09:09:59 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20343; Tue, 9 May 95 05:09:51 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA28102; Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:02 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:02 +0200 Message-Id: <9505090909.AA28102@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: EFI with 68HC11 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of processors that Bosch Motronic uses. I have heard that there a program that can show you the duty-cycle curves for the injectors, the timing etc, when you just read the program from an EPROM. Then you can modify the settings and burn a new EPROM. Can this program be bought somewhere? Are there any other techniques to cope this problem? Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Email: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 11:02:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20484; Tue, 9 May 95 11:02:33 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20470; Tue, 9 May 95 07:02:30 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQAEPW2KCW001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Tue, 9 May 1995 06:02:23 CDT Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 21:31:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <124153.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> No Cadillac ever produced, including current production, has had a -> fly-by-wire Traction control is accomplished by engine torque -> modulation coupled with selec brake application. I am also unaware -> of any production Corvette with a fly-by- throttle. You're entirely correct. I jumped tracks from fly by wire to traction control without looking. Could someone help me get this bucket off my foot? ==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us=========================DoD# 978======= From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 11:09:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20516; Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:15 GMT Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20502; Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:12 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA11801; Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:08 EDT Date: Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:08 EDT Message-Id: <9505091109.AA11801@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI In message <9505090353.AA03067@merlin.nando.net> writes: > >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > > > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Not for the rotary. I've seen temps as high as 1900 F (when the engine was normally aspirated). This is normal! > Well... Mixture being rich won't keep a motor with too much > advance/compression/hotspots in the combustion chamber from pinging.. No doubt, but it will stop detonation from running lean. > The computer did it's job though.. as you back off the gas, it should go > lean. Maybe I wasn't clear. I backed off the gas, then slowly got back into it. At 6-8 psi of boost it started to lean out. > Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should > be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, Yep, realized this. But when I see .2..v, I know its lean (and it shouldn't be reading this while under boost, especially at 7000 rpm :-). Later Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:05:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20583; Tue, 9 May 95 12:05:29 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20566; Tue, 9 May 95 08:01:44 -0400 Received: from diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (diana [134.169.34.15]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA29354 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 14:01:27 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id OAA23797 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 9 May 1995 14:01:24 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505091201.OAA23797@diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: EFI with 68HC11 To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 95 14:01:22 MET DST In-Reply-To: <9505090909.AA28102@nomina.lu.se> from "Georg Siotis" at May 9, 95 11:09:02 am Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > > Hello out there! > Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of > processors that Bosch Motronic uses. Can someone confirm that Bosch Motronic uses 8051/8048? I thought they used 68HC11, as the subject of this message tells?! Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:14:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20621; Tue, 9 May 95 12:14:25 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20607; Tue, 9 May 95 08:14:22 -0400 Received: from dialup-2-135.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 9 May 95 07:14:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 07:12:45 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17761.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >their runs by.. The ones that have used a EGT have melted pistons before the >thermocouple responded enough to register danger. One of the things about knock is that when it happens, the EGT drops. The vibrating gasses speed up the heat transfer to whatever is inside the chamber, i.e., piston, head, headgasket, and so on. This heat loss shows up as lower exhaust temperature. Maybe it's something else, but knock can be nasty. From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:53:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20713; Tue, 9 May 95 12:53:07 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20699; Tue, 9 May 95 08:52:52 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.195] (osse42.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA13710 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 14:51:25 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 14:54:17 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi All. There has been a lot of discussion about the correlation of air/fuel ratis vs. exhaust temp. This has initialized a grad. work for one of my students. The setup for this experiment will be a low-compression Volvo B-19 engine. with a lot of meassuring points. The engine powers a "eddie current break" The idea was to find out spec. fuelcomsumption vs. torque and rpm. To that he will add exhaust temp and air flow. As this doesn't seems to be a trival problem, I'm opend for any comments and suggestions. --- greatings -- *********************************************** * Sven-Erik Tiberg * * Div. of Energy Enginnering * * Dep. of Mechanical Enginnering * * Lulea Univ. of Technology SWEDEN * * email set@mt.luth.se * * phone +46 920 91218 * * fax +46 920 91047 * * http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/ene/staff/set/ * *********************************************** From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 13:12:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20771; Tue, 9 May 95 13:12:03 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20757; Tue, 9 May 95 09:12:00 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA09199 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 09:11:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 9:13:02 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950509091302.2103bcc4@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI A little off the subject but still related ... The Ford/Navistar Turbo Diesel uses electronically actuated unit (individual cylinder) injectors. Because diesels don't use a throttle, this makes these vehicles true "drive-by-wire". There is only one computer in the system. The accelerator pedal assembly has a potentiometer for "pedal position" and closed throttle and WOT switches. Speed (cruise) control is handled by the same processor. For vehicle that require a auxiliary/hand throttle (ie. wreckers w/PTO and vehicles that require high idle for high electric power output) there is a separate controller (microprocessor based) that tells the EEC to go to high idle. Jack Patteeuw From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 14:46:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20979; Tue, 9 May 95 14:46:23 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20965; Tue, 9 May 95 10:46:18 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA06250; Tue, 9 May 95 16:46:10 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 16:46:10 +0200 Message-Id: <9505091446.AA06250@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Motronic: Do they use 8048 / 8051 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > wrote: >> >> Hello out there! >> Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of >> processors that Bosch Motronic uses. > >Can someone confirm that Bosch Motronic uses 8051/8048? I thought >they used 68HC11, as the subject of this message tells?! > >Jens. A wrong subject slipped inside. Sorry about that. I 've heard that early Motronics use the 8048 and the later (after 90) use the 8051. It would of course be very nice if someone can confirm this. Greetings Georg Siotis From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 14:49:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21012; Tue, 9 May 95 14:49:28 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20998; Tue, 9 May 95 10:49:26 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s8qaj-000CyfC; Tue, 9 May 95 09:48 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:48:53 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9505081832.AA20911@merlin.nando.net> from "David Cooley" at May 8, 95 02:36:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1259 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI David Cooley writes: > If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous > response once it is up to temp. The sensors "switch" from lean to rich and > back again quite a few times a second as the mixture changes. This would > give you the ability to tune individual cylinders on the fly. Here's my two cents.... I run an O2 sensor in each collector. I run thermocouples in each port. The variance in EGT gives you a good picture of cylinder balance, and then the O2 sensor tells you what the actual A/F is if you are running near stoich. However, O2 sensors are only good for tuning near stoich, so they'll only help you at idle and low-medium load. For WOT, just keep the EGT safe and keep an eye on each individual temp to make sure you don't have one heading to the moon. As far as the idea of doing closed loop at WOT from EGT, it'd be a neat experiment... > Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM Ack, just say no! -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 15:07:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21060; Tue, 9 May 95 15:07:13 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21046; Tue, 9 May 95 11:07:08 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s8qrt-000Cz5C; Tue, 9 May 95 10:06 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:06:37 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9505091109.AA11801@oasys.dt.navy.mil> from "Robert Gallant" at May 9, 95 07:09:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 996 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Robert Gallant writes: > > >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... > Not for the rotary. I've seen temps as high as 1900 F (when the engine was > normally aspirated). This is normal! Gotta love them slow-burnin Wankels :) > > Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should > > be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, > > Yep, realized this. But when I see .2..v, I know its lean (and it shouldn't be > reading this while under boost, especially at 7000 rpm :-). Well, it's either lean OR you have a poor ground between the sensor and meter. I've been burned by that once or twice... -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:26:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21306; Tue, 9 May 95 16:26:12 GMT Received: from yarrow.wt.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21292; Tue, 9 May 95 12:26:06 -0400 Received: (prep@localhost) by yarrow (8.6.10/8.6.8) id AAA06327; Wed, 10 May 1995 00:25:54 +0800 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 00:25:54 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Message-Id: <199505091625.AAA06327@yarrow> To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: (set@mt.luth.se) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just hope he gets all of Ricardo's etc papers from the 1930s to read first... -- ~Paul prep@yarrow.wt.com.au +61 (09) 257-1001 prep@yarrow.wt.uwa.edu.au ( old ) 1 Crescent Rd, Kalamunda, West Aust 6076 From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:35:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21366; Tue, 9 May 95 16:35:45 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21352; Tue, 9 May 95 12:35:42 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQAM5XLGPSC6L9MD@ARIEL.GI.COM>; Tue, 09 May 1995 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAF9A00@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Tue, 09 May 95 09:36:16 PDT Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 09:37:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: FW: air-fuel ratio to temp To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAF9A00@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum >>boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. >> >WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Maybe he wants to sell you a motor! The key item here is "rotary engine." I believe that the ideal EGT for these engines is significantly higher than a typical 4 stroke engine. Bryan Zublin bzublin@po2.gi.com From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:38:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21390; Tue, 9 May 95 16:38:24 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21376; Tue, 9 May 95 12:38:21 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08569; Tue, 9 May 1995 10:40:51 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120321; Tue, 9 May 1995 10:36:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:33:16 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Motronic: Do they use 8048 / 8051 To: Georg Siotis Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9505091446.AA06250@nomina.lu.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Tue, 9 May 1995, Georg Siotis wrote: > A wrong subject slipped inside. Sorry about that. I 've heard that early > Motronics use the 8048 and the later (after 90) use the 8051. It would of > course be very nice if someone can confirm this. The earliest units used the Cosmac 1802 Then came the 8051, 8052, and 80515 .... Next, they switched to 16bit uP's with variants of the Intel 80x96 Usually in combo with an SMD (44pin) 8051 for spark & knock control The latest OBD-II compliant M5.2 uses the 87C196KN Jim PS: You can obtain a shareware package called DIS8051 from many sources on the net .... PPS: If anyone has any 80x96 tools to share let me know! From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 21:29:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22460; Tue, 9 May 95 21:29:56 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22444; Tue, 9 May 95 17:29:50 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA01253 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 17:29:45 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA04383; Tue, 9 May 1995 17:28:46 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA070284500; Tue, 9 May 1995 17:21:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 15:48:03 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sven-Erik Tiberg said: >Hi All. > >There has been a lot of discussion about the correlation of air/fuel ratis >vs. exhaust temp. This has initialized a grad. work for one of my students. >The idea was to find out spec. fuelcomsumption vs. torque and rpm. To that >he will add exhaust temp and air flow. >... >As this doesn't seems to be a trival problem, I'm opend for any comments >and suggestions. OK, I'll take a stab at this thread. Having just spent the day on a chassis dyno watching exhaust gas temperature while measuring torque, I'd like to point out the sensitivity of EGT to spark advance. Retarding spark will increase EGT. Naturally, this has an effect on torque output, too, but that's not to imply that you'll find the same EGT at all operating points that have the same torque and RPM. So, one suggestion I have (of which Sven-Erik is probably already aware) is to account for spark advance, too, at least relative to maximum brake torque timing. Some engines may run retarded from MBT for various reasons, so data both at and below MBT timing could be interesting. Heywood, of course, discusses the relationship between EGT and A/F ratio. He shows predicted and measured results that indicate that EGT reaches a maximum at 14.7:1 and falls off as you go rich or lean (holding RPM and IMEP constant) ("Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", p. 770; data from "A Fundmental Model for Predicting Fuel Consumption, NOx, and HC Emissions of the Conventional Spark- Ignited Engine" by Lavoie and Blumberg, printed in Combustion Science and Technology, Vol. 21, pp. 225-258, 1980). These results also show how retarding spark increases EGT. Assuming these results can be generalized, it looks to me from the graphs that using EGT to guess at A/F ratio might work as long as you aren't too concerned about exact values. In the example, measured EGT changed only about 3% (absolute scale) from 10.2:1 to 13.2:1. The curve changes only slightly more rapidly as you approach 14.7:1. Using EGT to perform tight closed-loop A/F control seems rather futile, especially when you count in sensor lag. Unless you have a tiny, bare thermocouple (not very rugged), the time constant of the thermocouple is likely to be measured in tenths of a second, if not seconds. I'd be interested to know if there is a ruggedized thermocouple that has a time constant in the <.001 second range. Such a sensor might be useful for misfire detection at high RPM. "Steady-state" EGT is invaluable to see if you are about to melt manifolds (especially turbos) or catalysts, and less accurately pistons and valves. Another contributor to the list suggested that the O2 sensor cannot be used to quantify A/F ratios above and below 14.7:1. The Bosch LM511 is a wide-range oxygen sensor which has enough change in output above and below 14.7:1 to make it useful for doing just this. Unfortunately, as with all O2 sensors, its output characteristics change with temperature (although not the rich/lean transition point), so you need to know EGT. You'll have to calibrate it yourself, because the last time I checked the response curves were unavailable to the public. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 22:45:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22674; Tue, 9 May 95 22:45:57 GMT Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22660; Tue, 9 May 95 18:45:53 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.10/1.34) id PAA29957; Tue, 9 May 1995 15:44:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id PAA18976; Tue, 9 May 1995 15:45:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199505092245.PAA18976@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Mixture and EGT Date: Tue, 09 May 95 15:45:42 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have heard that in larger piston engine aircraft (larger than the J-3 Cub I soloed decades ago) that the pilot has a fuel mixture control. Procedure is for takeoff and climb out to be made with a 'rich' mixture and, after level off, mixture is leaned out until engine roughness is detected (EGT increases as mixture is leaned) and then mixture is made richer for ~75 degree decrease in EGT. My understanding is that combustion temperature is highest at stoich and declines as mixture is made richer or leaner. Question: why is EGT increasing as mixture is leaned. Is it because combustion temp is increasing as rich mixture is brought nearer to stoich? Is it because lean mixture burns slower and is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Or none of the above? Thx, Harmon From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 00:42:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22849; Wed, 10 May 95 00:42:28 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22835; Tue, 9 May 95 20:42:16 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA01298 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:42:08 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505100042.KAA01298@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Mixture and EGT To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:42:07 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199505092245.PAA18976@sequent.sequent.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at May 9, 95 03:45:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1592 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all, I've been waiting for some labs results to empirically answer the original query about EGTs vs AFR. Our test rig (Lancia 2lt 16V on motoring dynamometer) is wired with a thermocouple in each exhaust runner and one in the collector. (It also has thermocouples in every other nook and cranny.) We have also individually plumbed each runner to the exhaust gas analyser for CO, CO2, O2, HC and NOx measurements. I will post some EGT characteristics soon. > > My understanding is that combustion temperature is highest at stoich and > declines as mixture is made richer or leaner. Question: why is EGT increasing as > mixture is leaned. Is it because combustion temp is increasing as rich > mixture is brought nearer to stoich? Is it because lean mixture burns > slower and is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Or none of the > above? > > Thx, Harmon > From my understanding, you are correct on both accounts. A thrid factor is that as the mixture is leaned out, there is less fuel energy to ignite and eventually the EGTs will drop off (as does peak cylinder pressure and NOx emmissions). Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 09:01:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23890; Wed, 10 May 95 09:01:03 GMT Received: from extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23876; Wed, 10 May 95 05:00:56 -0400 Received: from ts-h08-15-45.ucc.su.OZ.AU (ts-h08-15-45.ucc.su.OZ.AU [129.78.78.193]) by extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA28782 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 19:00:49 +1000 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 19:00:49 +1000 Message-Id: <199505100900.TAA28782@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> X-Sender: choward@postbox.usyd.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: choward@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Chris Howard) Subject: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I'm in the process of designing a datalogging system for a club race car. The car is fitted with Haltech F7 Fuel injection. I have an 11 channel A-D converter which plugs into the parallel port of a laptop which will be in the car. The converter can sample at up to 18kHz @ 10 bit resolution (386 laptop). I'm going to interface some transducers to it. I'm currently thinking of: Throttle position (rotary potentiometer) Steering angle ( " " ) RPM (from tacho output) 2 x wheel speed (proximity sensors) 3 axis acceleration I would ideally like to incorporate suspension movement as well, but may be limited by budget as I am a university student. Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. It must be able to measure static acceleration. Any other comments would also be appreciated. Thanks, From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 11:56:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24087; Wed, 10 May 95 11:56:10 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24073; Wed, 10 May 95 07:56:07 -0400 Received: from dialup-4-46.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 10 May 95 06:55:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 May 95 06:54:30 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17114.fran0054@gold.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. >It must be able to measure static acceleration. I wonder if a BOSCH type knock sensor would be sensitive enough for your application. I think those are broad band. A GM-type may have trouble as they are resonant. From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:17:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24209; Wed, 10 May 95 13:17:49 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24195; Wed, 10 May 95 09:17:41 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.177] (osse30.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA15915 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 10 May 1995 15:17:28 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 4 (Low) Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:20:22 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I'm in the process of designing a datalogging system for a club race car. >The car is fitted with Haltech F7 Fuel injection. I have an 11 channel A-D >converter which plugs into the parallel port of a laptop which will be in >the car. >The converter can sample at up to 18kHz @ 10 bit resolution (386 laptop). >I'm going to interface some transducers to it. I'm currently thinking of: > > Throttle position (rotary potentiometer) > Steering angle ( " " ) > RPM (from tacho output) > 2 x wheel speed (proximity sensors) > 3 axis acceleration > >I would ideally like to incorporate suspension movement as well, but may be >limited by budget as I am a university student. > >Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi >axis. >It must be able to measure static acceleration. > >Any other comments would also be appreciated. > >Thanks, We had a project in full-active suspension on off-road vehicles some y ago. www-page; "http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/ene/articles/rigg/A_cab.html" There where a set of transducers developed for this application as accelerometers 0-100Hz, potentiometers and inclinometers. All units had mil-std, 4-20 mA and fault detection. An est. prize for this single axis accelerometer would be .LE. $400 in low quantity. --- sven-erik tiberg --- set@mt.luth.se ---- From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:36:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24310; Wed, 10 May 95 13:36:12 GMT Received: from steadfast.teradyne.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24296; Wed, 10 May 95 09:36:08 -0400 Received: from donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (donatello.icd.teradyne.com [131.101.7.16]) by steadfast.teradyne.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27187; Wed, 10 May 1995 09:33:04 -0400 Received: from midnight.icd.teradyne.com by donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/TER-1.43/donatello-1.6) id AA27089; Wed, 10 May 95 09:35:15 EDT Date: Wed, 10 May 95 09:35:15 EDT From: benagh@ICD.Teradyne.COM (Jeff Benagh ) Message-Id: <9505101335.AA27089@donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Cc: choward@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. > It must be able to measure static acceleration. I believe the Analog Devices ADXL05 can do this. They are ~$10 ion large quantities. I'm looking into getting samples. Send email to: Accelerometers@analog.com Hope this helps Jeff From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:51:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24475; Wed, 10 May 95 13:51:42 GMT Received: from dialup-7.melbpc.org.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24461; Wed, 10 May 95 09:51:32 -0400 Received: by remote-1.melbpc.org.au (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0s9CP0-0003kbC; Thu, 11 May 95 00:06 EST Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 00:06:13 +0000 From: Roger Edgecombe Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505100900.TAA28782@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Wireless World magazine, back in about 1987 had a design for a home brewed accelerometer, built from a 2" speaker. (It might be a bit TOO budget for your needs. I have the article if you want exact date.) Roger Edgecombe Signature (which I pinched ..): I hope to die quietly in my sleep, like my grandfather did, rather than screaming in terror - like his passengers did. From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 15:46:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24786; Wed, 10 May 95 15:46:03 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24772; Wed, 10 May 95 11:45:59 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <171908-3>; Wed, 10 May 1995 11:47:13 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03675; Wed, 10 May 95 11:40:18 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003673; Wed May 10 11:39:48 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26543; Wed, 10 May 95 11:41:41 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA00706; Wed, 10 May 95 11:45:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:45:28 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9505101545.AA00706@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. A recent (maybe even the current) issue of Circuit Cellar Ink had an article on data logging acceleration. I think they even used a 'single chip' accelerometer. I'll try to take another look at the article tonight and report back. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 16:06:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24996; Wed, 10 May 95 16:06:37 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24982; Wed, 10 May 95 12:06:30 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA030861988; Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:28 -0400 From: Lfaustini@aol.com Message-Id: <950510120626_113718979@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just read in Electronic Design that Analog Devices has come out with some cheap and accurate single chip accelerometers. They cost around $10.00 in very high quantities. So you can expect to pay twice that. They claim to have very good sensitivity, like .005g to 5g with DC preformance in part #ADXL05 They also have a freight-train-slamming-into-you- type detector that can measure from 5g to 50g. They listed the following phone numbers for info: 1-800-ANALOGD for fax info: 1-800-446-6212, faxcode numbers 1846 (low-g device) and 1606 (freight-train device) hope this info helps. -----Lou From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 16:06:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24981; Wed, 10 May 95 16:06:29 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24966; Wed, 10 May 95 12:06:26 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA282581985; Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:25 -0400 From: Lfaustini@aol.com Message-Id: <950510120620_113718875@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Didn't the Corvette ZR-1 use a servo-motor to control the _secondary_ set of throttle plates? ---Lou From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 18:00:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25619; Wed, 10 May 95 18:00:18 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA25605; Wed, 10 May 95 14:00:14 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08416; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:30:05 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68674; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:25:56 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:25:04 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: Chris Howard Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505100900.TAA28782@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 10 May 1995, Chris Howard wrote: > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. > It must be able to measure static acceleration. See this (or was it last) month's Circuit Cellar Ink for info on acceleration sensors and such ... Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 00:43:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26765; Thu, 11 May 95 00:43:39 GMT Received: from vax2.curtin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA26751; Wed, 10 May 95 20:43:35 -0400 Received: from cc.curtin.edu.au by cc.curtin.edu.au (PMDF V4.3-7 #7809) id <01HQDCSWOYOG9JDEQJ@cc.curtin.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 1995 08:43:19 +0800 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:43:19 +0800 From: Skala_RD@cc.curtin.edu.au Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HQDCSWR3UA9JDEQJ@cc.curtin.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I'm not sure if this idea will work in your application, but you could probably try to use an electronic gyro. They are widely used in model helicopters for stability control. Maybe with a few modifications, they may just be able to do the job. I have some information on these devices, if you are interested let me know and I will see what I can dig up. Regards, Rob Robert D Skala Materials Research Group Curtin University of Technology Perth, Western Australia email: skala_rd@cc.curtin.edu.au From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 01:47:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26896; Thu, 11 May 95 01:47:49 GMT Received: from uclink.Berkeley.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA26875; Wed, 10 May 95 21:47:44 -0400 Received: by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.6.10/1.33(web)-OV4) id SAA02952; Wed, 10 May 1995 18:47:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 18:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: James C Patterson Subject: To: EFI332 majordomo , Electronic Fuel Injection Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI send index From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 14:42:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28395; Thu, 11 May 95 14:42:34 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA28377; Thu, 11 May 95 10:42:31 -0400 Received: from pm1_26.magicnet.net (pm1_26.magicnet.net [204.96.116.76]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA22352; Thu, 11 May 1995 10:42:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199505111442.KAA22352@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:19:38 -0400 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ed, That was a superb (waffle free) reply. I'm impressed! There is only one thing missing. Could you put some actual numbers on it? What was the temperature of the exhaust at stoichiometric? Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 14:39:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28331; Thu, 11 May 95 14:39:38 GMT Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA28317; Thu, 11 May 95 10:39:31 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01272; Thu, 11 May 1995 09:39:27 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9505111439.AA01272@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Address List To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:39:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5356 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Here is some good info on manufactures/suppliers. I haven't tried all the addresses to see if they are valid or not. Forwarded message: > > 8.0 MICROCONTROLLER AND MICROPROCESSOR DIRECTORY > > Here is the key contact information for major semiconductor > manufacturers. > > Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) > TEL. 408-749-5703 -- TOLF. 800-222-9323, 2 > FAX. 800-222-9323, 1 -- FAXBACK. > WWW..:www.amd.com > > Advanced RISC Machines (ARM) > TEL. 408-399-5199 > FAX. 408-399-8854 -- FAXBACK. > WWW..:www.systemv.com/armltd.index.html > > Dallas Semiconductor > TEL. 214-450-0448 > FTP..:ftp.dalsemi.com > WWW..:www.dalsemi.com/ > > Digital Equipment Corp. (DEC/Alpha) > TEL. 508-568-6868 > FTP..:ftp.dec.com > WWW..:www.dec.com > > Fujitsu Microelectronics, IC Division > TOLF. 800-642-7616 > FAX. 408-954-0616 > WWW..:www.fujitsu.com/fmi/ > > Hitachi America Ltd. > TEL. 800-285-1601 > FTP..:ftp.hitachi.co.jp > WWW..:www.hitachi.co.jp/ > > Intel Corporation > TOLF. 800-548-4725, 800-468-8118 > FAX. 800-628-2283, 916-356-3105 > FTP..:ftp.intel.com > WWW..:www.intel.com > WWW..:web.jf.intel.com/embedded/index.html > > Matra MHS > TEL. 408-748-9362 > FAX. 408-748-0439 > > Microchip Technology > TEL. 602-786-7200 > TOLF. 800-437-2767 > FAX. 602-786-7277 > WWW..:www.ultranet.com/biz/mchip/ > > Mips Technologies, Inc. > TEL. 415-933-6477 > TOLF. 800-998-6477 > FAXBACK. 800-446-6477, 415-688-4321 > FTP..:ftp.sgigate.sgi.com > WWW..:www.mips.com > > Mitsubishi Electronics America, Inc. > TEL. 408-730-5900 > > Motorola, Inc. > TOLF. 800-441-2447 -- FAX. 602-994-6430 > FAXBACK. 602-244-6609 > FTP..:bode.ee.ualberta.ca > FTP..: > WWW..:motserv.indirect.com > WWW..:www.motorola.com > WWW..:freeware.aus.sps.mot.com/freeweb/index.html > WWW..:nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca/html/motorola.html > > National Semiconductor, Inc. > TEL. 800-272-9959 > > NEC Electronics, Inc. > TEL. 800-366-9782 > FTP..:ftp.nec.com > WWW..:www.nec.com > > Oki Semiconductor, Inc. > TEL. 408-720-1900 -- TOLF. 800-654-6388 > FAX. 408-720-1918 > WWW..:www.oki.com > > Philips Semiconductor > TOLF. 800-447-1500 > FAX. 708-635-8493 > FAXBACK. 800-282-2000 > WWW..:www.semiconductors.philips.com/ps/ > > SGS-Thomson Microelectronics > TEL. 602-867-6100 > FAX. 602-867-6200 > > SPARC International > TEL. 415-321-8692 > EMAIL:info@sparc.com > FTP..:ftp.sparc.com > WWW..:www.sparc.com > > Texas Instruments, Inc. > TEL. 800-477-8924 > FTP..:ftp.ti.com > REM..:Request Lit # SSYC005B > > Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc. > TEL. 714-455-2000 > WWW..:www.toshiba.com > > Western Design Center Inc. (WDC) > TEL. 602-962-4545 > FAX. 602-835-6442 > EMAIL:wdesignc@indirect.com > > Zilog > TEL. 408-370-8000 > EMAIL:info@zilog.com > FTP..: > WWW..:www.zilog.com/zilog/ > > ********** > 9.0 TRADITIONAL SOURCES OF INFORMATION > > ========== > CATALOGS > > Ada Resource Center > Tel. 617-556-9246 > Produces: The Ada Resource Catalog (Free). > > Advanced Micro Devices, Literature Distribution > Tel. 408-749-5703; 800-222-9323, 2 > Faxback. 800-222-9323, 1 > Produces: Fusion29K Catalog, E86 Family Information. > > Fujitsu Microelectronics, Inc., Literature Distribution > Tel:800-642-7616, Fax. 408-954-0616 > Produces: Sparclite, The Complete Embedded Solution;930 > Series; Mark all faxes "ATTN: LITERATURE DISTRIBUTION" > > IBM, PowerPC Marketing > Tel:800-769-3772, Fax. 708-635-3620 > Produces: PowerPC Embedded Tools Catalog; co-sponsored with > Motorola, free from IBM. > > Intel, Literature Distribution > Tel. 800-548-4725, 800-468-8118 > Faxback. 800-628-2283, 916-356-3105 > Produces: Embedded Intel386 Catalog; Intel Development Tools > Catalog (MCS51,MCS96,80C186); I960 Catalog > > Microchip Technology, Inc. > Tel. 602-786-7200,800-437-2767 > Fax. 602-786-7277 > Produces: Third Party Support catalog > > Motorola, Literature Distribution > Tel. 800-441-2447, Fax. 602-994-6430 > Faxback. 602-244-6609 > BBS: 512-891-3733 9600 V32 8N1 (Freeware) > Produces: Motorola 68K Source; Motorola Microcontroller > Development Tools Directory (68HC05, 08, 11, 16, and > 68300);Design-NET on-line (internet) service available, > request doc #BR1307 > > PC/104 Consortium > Tel. 415-903-8304, Fax. 415-967-0995 > Faxback. 408-720-0515 > Produces: PC/104 Resource Guide (Free catalog of PC/104 > association members). > > PCMCIA > Tel. 408-720-0107, Fax. 408-720-9416 > Produces: PCMCIA Resources Reference Book ($30.00); BBS 408- > 720-9388 (2400 Baud); BBS 408-720-9386 (9600 Baud) > > Philips > Tel. 800-447-1500, Fax. 708-635-8493 > Faxback. 800-282-2000 > Produces: 8051 Product Directory > > STD 32 Special Interest Group > Tel. 310-477-9664 - Fax. 310-479-2274 > Produces: STD 32(R) information brochure, with a listing of > manufacturers. > > VITA (VFEA International Trade Association) > Tel. 602-951-8866, Fax. 602-951-0720 > Produces: VMEbus/VXIbus Compatible Products Directory > ($55.00) per copy; > > VXIbus Buyer's Guide, The > Tel. 602-966-5936, Fax. 602-968-3446 > Produces: The VXI Buyer's Guide ($33); for info email > micrology@aol.com > This place has a slick online database of lots of electronic components. You can even make arrangements so that you can order and be billed. http://www.westernmicro.com -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 20:12:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00143; Thu, 11 May 95 20:12:22 GMT Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00127; Thu, 11 May 95 16:12:17 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.10/1.34) id NAA07275; Thu, 11 May 1995 13:10:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id NAA28529; Thu, 11 May 1995 13:12:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199505112012.NAA28529@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: o2 and EGT questions Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:12:10 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At the risk of driving _EFI'ers up the wall, I have a few more questions: 1. Do O2 sensors have a 'cusp' output where Vo decreases as mixture goes from lean to stoich, and then increases as mixture becomes rich? Or does it have a generally positive (or negative) slope, with a characteristic voltage at stoich? ^ \ / | \ / Vo \ / Cusp \ / \/ <-Lean ----Rich-> / ^ / | / Vo - - Slope / / / 2. Who are vendors/where can info on O2 sensors be found? 3. What thermocouple materials are used for EGT probes? (Copper/Constantan just don't sound right) Thanks, Harmon From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 20:27:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00438; Thu, 11 May 95 20:27:45 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00419; Thu, 11 May 95 16:27:41 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0s9epf-0009qCC; Thu, 11 May 95 15:27 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0s9epd-000uNCC; Thu, 11 May 95 15:27 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Thu, 11 May 95 15:27:37 CDT Date: Thu, 11 May 95 15:27:28 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: re: o2 and EGT questions To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Harmon Sommer Wrote: | | | At the risk of driving _EFI'ers up the wall, I have a few more | questions: | | | 1. Do O2 sensors have a 'cusp' output where Vo decreases as mixture | goes from lean to stoich, and then increases as mixture becomes rich? Or | does it | have a generally positive (or negative) slope, with a characteristic | voltage at stoich? I can answer this one... Unlike most questions posed here... :-) It looks like this: /----------------- / | | / ------------------/ rich stoich lean It has a very steep slope at stoich, which is why they (typically) only read rich/lean, not how rich or how lean. | | | 2. Who are vendors/where can info on O2 sensors be found? | | 3. What thermocouple materials are used for EGT probes? | (Copper/Constantan just don't sound right) | | Thanks, Harmon | From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 21:16:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00584; Thu, 11 May 95 21:16:33 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00570; Thu, 11 May 95 17:16:29 -0400 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA27161 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 11 May 95 14:16:26 MST Received: from emailchd by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA03518; Thu, 11 May 95 14:16:21 MST Received: by wdc.sps.mot.com (4.1/WDC-1.02) Thu, 11 May 95 14:16:11 MST Date: Thu, 11 May 95 14:16:11 MST From: Mark Shaw Message-Id: <9505112116.AA26290@wdc.sps.mot.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: re: o2 and EGT questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Wrote: > I can answer this one... Unlike most questions posed here... :-) > > It looks like this: > > > /----------------- > / > | > | > / > ------------------/ > > rich stoich lean > > It has a very steep slope at stoich, which is why they (typically) only read > rich/lean, not how rich or how lean. oops. You got the phase backwards. The voltage is high for rich mixtures. There has also been some SAE papers on how to use the O2 sensor in a constant voltage, variable current mode or other ways to predict mixtures other than stoichiometric. Try: Sasayama, et al. SAE 910501 Wang, et al. SAE 930352 Brialsford, et al. SAE 950531 Sasayama is particularly interesting. Mark From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 21:41:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00782; Thu, 11 May 95 21:41:36 GMT Received: from pobox.oit.umass.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00768; Thu, 11 May 95 17:41:33 -0400 Received: from conrad.oit.umass.edu by pobox.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #6523) id <01HQDVPDIVGW00S7WK@pobox.oit.umass.edu>; Thu, 11 May 1995 17:41:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (sisko.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.91.173]) by conrad.oit.umass.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA09287 for ; Thu, 11 May 1995 17:41:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:41:24 -0400 From: cons090@oitunix.oit.umass.edu (Jody Shapiro) Subject: Re: o2 and EGT questions X-Sender: cons090@conrad.oit.umass.edu To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <199505112141.RAA09287@conrad.oit.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >1. Do O2 sensors have a 'cusp' output where Vo decreases as mixture >goes from lean to stoich, and then increases as mixture becomes rich? Or does it >have a generally positive (or negative) slope, with a characteristic >voltage at stoich? > > > > ^ \ / > | \ / > Vo \ / Cusp > \ / > \/ > > <-Lean ----Rich-> > > / > ^ / > | / > Vo - - Slope > / > / > / > I'm not positive on this one, but I believe that the second one is correct... -Jody From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 21:53:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00821; Thu, 11 May 95 21:53:52 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00807; Thu, 11 May 95 17:53:49 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA06413; Thu, 11 May 95 17:53:20 EDT Message-Id: <9505112153.AA06413@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:57:06 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: o2 and EGT questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >1. Do O2 sensors have a 'cusp' output where Vo decreases as mixture >goes from lean to stoich, and then increases as mixture becomes rich? Or does it >have a generally positive (or negative) slope, with a characteristic >voltage at stoich? > > / > ^ / > | / > Vo - - Slope > / > / > / > > This is how they work.. At stoich, they are around .45-.5 volts.. lean, they drop , rich they increase towards 1 volt. >2. Who are vendors/where can info on O2 sensors be found? > Not sure where to find info... Maybe bosch, as they seem to make a whole line including for the american cars. >3. What thermocouple materials are used for EGT probes? (Copper/Constantan >just don't sound right) > They don't use a thermocouple.. It is a ceramic with a thin metallic coating inside and out for the electrodes. Once it is hot (approx. 600 deg. F) It becomes a battery.. The voltage is dependant on the difference in O2 levels between the 2 electrodes... Outside air is exposed to the outside of the ceramic, and the inside is in the exhaust stream. A large difference (rich) makes a large voltage (approx 1 volt) and a small difference (lean) makes a small voltage. They are also High impedance devices.. Hooking any meter to it while it is hot, if it has less than 10 meg ohms resistance, will ruin the sensor. Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 00:01:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01022; Fri, 12 May 95 00:01:49 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01008; Thu, 11 May 95 20:01:45 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA07780 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 11 May 1995 20:01:09 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA23050; Thu, 11 May 1995 19:54:37 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA262026021; Thu, 11 May 1995 19:47:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 95 19:44:45 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Lou Faustini wrote: > Didn't the Corvette ZR-1 use a servo-motor to control the _secondary_ set >of throttle plates? As I recall, the ZR-1 has dual runners going to each port. There is a butterfly valve in each secondary runner which is opened by a motor at the PCM's command for WOT operation. If you are using the valet key, the secondary butterflies are not commanded open, significantly reducing airflow. This is not quite the same thing as a "secondary throttle plate", but perhaps it's what Lou is talking about. At the Detroit Auto Show in January I observed the Lexus 4.0l motor had two distinct throttle plates of identical size in series in the throttle body, the second apparently actuated by a servo, the first mechanically. It appears that engine has a true secondary throttle plate. I have no idea what it is for, but I'm guessing idle control at the very least. The motor also has twin distributors! Imagine that in this day of direct ignition. Must be their secret to high CAMIP and J.D. Power ratings. Of course, they all run and hide when I meet them at the light... ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Northstar/Aurora Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 00:15:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01057; Fri, 12 May 95 00:15:12 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01043; Thu, 11 May 95 20:15:09 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03357; Thu, 11 May 95 18:15:05 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03209; Thu, 11 May 95 18:15:04 MDT Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:15:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: re: o2 and EGT questions To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At the risk of further driving efi'ers up the wall, what oxygen concentration in the exhaust corresponds to a stoichiometric mixture. Naively, one would expect that a stoichiometric mixture having undergone complete combustion would not have any residual oxygen. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 00:29:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01099; Fri, 12 May 95 00:29:35 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01085; Thu, 11 May 95 20:29:30 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA09723 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 11 May 1995 20:29:24 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA23104; Thu, 11 May 1995 20:28:25 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA262978048; Thu, 11 May 1995 20:20:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 95 19:56:40 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: o2 and EGT questions To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI David Cooley wrote: [in re O2 sensor voltage = f(A/F)] >This is how they work.. At stoich, they are around .45-.5 volts.. lean, they >drop , rich they increase towards 1 volt. To clarify, at stoich, the voltage may be anywhere between 200 and 600mV at high (900C) temperatures, 200 and 800mV at lower (500C) temperatures. The width of this window can be important. Still, you can do well if you simply pick the midpoint of this range (400-500mV) as the transition point and control off that. As David points out, output voltage increases as the mixture gets rich and decreases as it gets lean. >>3. What thermocouple materials are used for EGT probes? (Copper/Constantan >>just don't sound right) >> >They don't use a thermocouple.. [snip - David gives a good description of the physics of an O2 sensor here, not an EGT probe] There's iron/constantan (900C), NiCr/constantan (900C), NiCr/Ni (1200C), etc., up through tungsten/tantalum (3000C) (I'm reading from the Bosch Automotive Handbook). We've got thermocouples all over our cars, including for EGT. You could use the resistive heating element in a heated O2 sensor to measure EGT. It would be slow to react, but it could work. Omega Engineering has a wide selection of thermocouple probes, not to mention a wide selection of engineering test & measurement catalogs. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 00:50:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01322; Fri, 12 May 95 00:50:58 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01308; Thu, 11 May 95 20:50:54 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s9ivs-000CzGC; Thu, 11 May 95 19:50 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: o2 and EGT questions To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 19:50:20 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199505112012.NAA28529@sequent.sequent.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at May 11, 95 01:12:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 466 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Harmon Sommer writes: > > 3. What thermocouple materials are used for EGT probes? (Copper/Constantan > just don't sound right) I don't know what the material was, but I used Type K thermocouples. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 01:20:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01416; Fri, 12 May 95 01:20:37 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01402; Thu, 11 May 95 21:20:28 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id LAA09612 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 12 May 1995 11:20:25 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505120120.LAA09612@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:20:24 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at May 11, 95 07:44:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3477 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ed wrote, > > Lou Faustini wrote: > > > Didn't the Corvette ZR-1 use a servo-motor to control the _secondary_ set > >of throttle plates? > > As I recall, the ZR-1 has dual runners going to each port. There is a > butterfly valve in each secondary runner which is opened by a motor at > the PCM's command for WOT operation. If you are using the valet key, > the secondary butterflies are not commanded open, significantly reducing > airflow. This is not quite the same thing as a "secondary throttle > plate", but perhaps it's what Lou is talking about. > > At the Detroit Auto Show in January I observed the Lexus 4.0l motor had > two distinct throttle plates of identical size in series in the throttle > body, the second apparently actuated by a servo, the first mechanically. > It appears that engine has a true secondary throttle plate. I have no > idea what it is for, but I'm guessing idle control at the very least. > The motor also has twin distributors! Imagine that in this day of > direct ignition. Must be their secret to high CAMIP and J.D. Power > ratings. Of course, they all run and hide when I meet them at the > light... > The Toyota (Lexus) twin throttle plate (in series) system is for traction control. They have been using it on Japanese spec 1GG 2lt 6 cyl engines for quite a few years along with a dual plenumn that switches between one and two sections (making the engine effectively two 3 cylinder systems) and dual intake runners per cylinder. That totals 9 individual butterflies (one of which is user controlled). They also use the twin intake runner system for their 4AG (NA and supercharged) and 3SG (NA and turbo) 4 cyl engines. The engines use one intake runner per cylinder below about 4500 rpm and open the second after that. It sounds like a different system to the Corvette control in that the intake control signal is a function of engine speed and is used to maximise cylinder filling through ram effects. Some people have speculated that the Toyota system was developed due to oversize intake port design. Later model 3SG engines with smaller intake ports (except for the turbo version used in the GT4) use a different system of switching in a secondary plenumn (shortening the intake length) at high speeds to aid resonant effects. The engines are factory red lined at 7800 rpm. I have also seen research into the topic by Mercedes Benz. Their work concluded that there was little benefit for V8s given the intake phasing and restrictions on packaging the intake system. Our Lancia research engine has two sets of runners (short and long) which are also selected according to engine speed. The reason I have mentioned all this is that there are many other interesting possibilities that DIY efi opens up. Perhaps we could start a list of non standard engine control variables to ensure that a generic DIY system has the capibilty of providing the control required. Robert 'currently fitting an MR2 3SG into a '76 Celica' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 01:21:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01433; Fri, 12 May 95 01:21:11 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01418; Thu, 11 May 95 21:21:08 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA10971; Thu, 11 May 95 21:20:41 EDT Message-Id: <9505120120.AA10971@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 21:24:28 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >As I recall, the ZR-1 has dual runners going to each port. There is a >butterfly valve in each secondary runner which is opened by a motor at >the PCM's command for WOT operation. If you are using the valet key, >the secondary butterflies are not commanded open, significantly reducing >airflow. This is not quite the same thing as a "secondary throttle >plate", but perhaps it's what Lou is talking about. > My 93 Jimmy with the HO 200HP 4.3 had this too... Only it was a Plenum divider in the manifold that over a certain throttle position and RPM, flipped open and connected the 2 halves of the plenum for top end power. >At the Detroit Auto Show in January I observed the Lexus 4.0l motor had >two distinct throttle plates of identical size in series in the throttle >body, the second apparently actuated by a servo, the first mechanically. >It appears that engine has a true secondary throttle plate. I have no >idea what it is for, but I'm guessing idle control at the very least. That is their traction control.. I have a friend Who works for Lexus in the port of Los Angeles going over the electronics after they come off the ships to make sure they are ok. Most traction controls use a servo that actually tries to force the main throttle closed... You can feel it in your foot when the tires spin... the pedal pushes back... The lexus, uses a 2nd throttle plate behind (or in front of) the first main throttle... Normally, when the car is running it is fully open.. If the PCM senses any wheel spin while the traction control is engaged, it will shut that 2nd throttle plate down until the spin stops. Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 01:35:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01494; Fri, 12 May 95 01:35:46 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01480; Thu, 11 May 95 21:35:40 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id LAA10459 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 12 May 1995 11:35:39 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505120135.LAA10459@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: o2 and EGT questions To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:35:38 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jack Mott" at May 11, 95 06:15:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1246 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Charles asks, > > At the risk of further driving efi'ers up the wall, what oxygen > concentration in the exhaust corresponds to a stoichiometric mixture. > Naively, one would expect that a stoichiometric mixture having undergone > complete combustion would not have any residual oxygen. > > Charles Mott > From some data taken yesterday : Lancia 2lt 16V ADS 9000 emmissions equipment 2000 rpm 50 Nm brake torque lambda 1.006 AFR 14.59:1 O2 0.7% CO2 13.91% HC 144ppm CO 0.71% EGTs 1-604 2-675 3-646 4-670 deg C (I need to check the thermocouple to cyl 1) The CO and HC levels drop dramatically at slightly leaner mixtures (1.050) On a lean cruise, one would expect up to 3% O2. At lambda 4, the O2 percentage gets up to 15% Back to the labs :-) Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 01:55:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01548; Fri, 12 May 95 01:55:50 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01533; Thu, 11 May 95 21:55:44 -0400 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.9) id LAA08655 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 12 May 1995 11:55:29 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199505120155.LAA08655@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:55:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at May 11, 95 07:44:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1753 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Didn't the Corvette ZR-1 use a servo-motor to control the _secondary_ set > >of throttle plates? > > As I recall, the ZR-1 has dual runners going to each port. There is a > butterfly valve in each secondary runner which is opened by a motor at > the PCM's command for WOT operation. If you are using the valet key, > the secondary butterflies are not commanded open, significantly reducing > airflow. This is not quite the same thing as a "secondary throttle > plate", but perhaps it's what Lou is talking about. Hi, I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg 7500 rpm) IE: % of sparks being cut out 100 | _____ | / | / 50 | / | / | / 0 |--------- +-------------------> RPM ^ ^ | |__ Absolute max (No power) |______ Start of rev limiting (Power starts reducing) BUT Can/will this scheme lead to undesirable loading of the engine components due to 'random' firing occurring? (Ie standing waves in the crankshaft etc). The scheme I have come up with for cutting out the spark virtually guarantees that the sparks can only occur when they normally would, so there would be no mis-timed sparks. I was thinking of adding a 'valet' mode to reduce power when other people are driving the car by reducing the rev limiting to a much lower value.. Would it be preferable to close off the secondary intake stage like to ZR1 system mentioned above? Thanks for any insights, Craig. From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 02:00:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01577; Fri, 12 May 95 02:00:54 GMT Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01563; Thu, 11 May 95 22:00:51 -0400 Received: from crl3.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA19170 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 11 May 1995 19:00:13 -0700 Received: by crl3.crl.com id AA04016 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lawrence S. Harris III" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control In-Reply-To: <9505120120.AA10971@merlin.nando.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > My 93 Jimmy with the HO 200HP 4.3 had this too... Only it was a Plenum divider > in the manifold that over a certain throttle position and RPM, flipped open > and connected the 2 halves of the plenum for top end power. As does the Ford/Lincoln DOHC 4.6 liter modular V8. I believe that it cuts in at 3000 RPM. You can actually see it on the HP/Torque curves too. They are double humped! Gee wiz, this really works! Larry Harris lharris@crl.com (pref) or lharris@msm.mea.com '86 Mustang LX 5.0 Coupe (149K) '82 BMW 635CSi Euro (121K) Meyers Tow'd Dune Buggy (1776cc) '83 Toyota Tercel (180K) From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 02:08:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01687; Fri, 12 May 95 02:08:59 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01673; Thu, 11 May 95 22:08:56 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA13643 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 11 May 1995 22:08:54 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA23413; Thu, 11 May 1995 22:07:56 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA263954019; Thu, 11 May 1995 22:00:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 95 21:15:04 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter asked, >Ed, > >That was a superb (waffle free) reply. I'm impressed! > >There is only one thing missing. Could you put some actual numbers on it? >What was the temperature of the exhaust at stoichiometric? >Peter Wales >Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" Heywood gives measured EGT of about 910K at stoichiometric for the engine in the experiment running at 1250RPM, 379 imep, and MBT spark timing. This went down to about 875K at lambda=0.7 and lambda=1.2. Retarding spark to achieve a 10% increase in fuel consumption shifted the temperature curves up almost 75K. I'm sorry I can't report my own results :(. In any case, what I was testing was quite outside of the region most people on this list are interested in, i.e. high MAP and high RPM, and therefore of little public benefit. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 10:08:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03119; Fri, 12 May 95 10:08:24 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA03105; Fri, 12 May 95 06:08:19 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.129] (osse00.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA16948 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 12 May 1995 12:08:14 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:11:11 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: Address List Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all. That was a great list. Iv'e put on my web-page as a .html document with links. "http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/uC_manuf.html" ---- sven-erik tiberg -- From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 11:31:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA03287; Fri, 12 May 95 11:31:27 GMT Received: from oeonline.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA03269; Fri, 12 May 95 07:31:23 -0400 Received: by oeonline.oeonline.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0s9sv3-000FGTC; Fri, 12 May 95 07:30 EDT Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 07:29:58 -400 (EDT) From: Mike Wesley - SLIP Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505120155.LAA08655@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 12 May 1995, Craig Pugsley wrote: > > Hi, > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg > 7500 rpm) IE: > > I would cut fuel instead of spark (or at least both) if your going to be ramping the spark out. I'm assuming you're killing the spark instead of retarding it when your limiter is starting to come on. I tried this a few years back and blew a few mufflers off the car. Mike... C & M Racing Systems From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 14:24:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04014; Fri, 12 May 95 14:24:57 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04000; Fri, 12 May 95 10:24:54 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA13047 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 12 May 1995 10:24:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:25:57 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950512102558.210474c6@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Ed Lansinger writes: > >At the Detroit Auto Show in January I observed the Lexus 4.0l motor had >two distinct throttle plates of identical size in series in the throttle >body, the second apparently actuated by a servo, the first mechanically. >It appears that engine has a true secondary throttle plate. I have no >idea what it is for ... Ford has similar setup on large displacement engines (5.8l and 7.6l). I was told the reason is because the air flow through a butterfly valve is non-linear to the angle of the butterfly, and the situation gets worse as the diameter of the butterfly gets larger. In laymens terms, for a large bore throttle, 70-90% of the air flow through the throttle may be achieved at less than 50% of the throttle travel and going from part throttle to WOT has very little effect. By using two smaller bore throttles that are staged (ie. have a progressive linkage), then a more linear throttle to air flow correlation may be achieved. As for distributors, it seems the only good reason to have one (not two) these days is to drive the oil pump ! Jack From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 16:14:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04240; Fri, 12 May 95 16:14:13 GMT Received: from mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04226; Fri, 12 May 95 12:14:09 -0400 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA19305 for ; Fri, 12 May 1995 12:14:08 -0400 Received: from metlab6.my.mtu.edu (metlab6.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.86]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id MAA21667 for ; Fri, 12 May 1995 12:14:06 -0400 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab6.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id MAA23614 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 12 May 1995 12:14:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199505121614.MAA23614@metlab6.my.mtu.edu> Subject: Ignition module To: diy_efi (DIY EFI) Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6184 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've been lurking for quite some time now, and this is what I have surmized: 1. The number of programmers and mechanically related types on this list is quite high, with a smattering of others. 2. "The" model recommended for electronic fuel injection seems to be the mean value engine model. I have two questions related to it: a. How do you measure the parameters required for the model? The "perfect" solution of course would be some simple user-entry parameters (number of cylinders, displacement size, overbore size, CFI/SEFI/EFI injection type), and then let the engine computer determine the rest online. b. How would you convert it from a model to a control algorithm? I understand that there are 3 inputs and 2 states..but the next step is to derive some physical parameters that you wish to optimize based on the model. It does not appear that anyone has ground out the mathematics yet except Mike Klopfer (Jan 7, 1995) who seems to have made a pretty good stab with a similar algorithm. 3. There is lots of squabble over the proper microcontroller to use. I have personally used everything from off the shelf PC's to custom wired TTL logic circuits (up to about 20 chips) to 68xx and recently, Microchip based controllers. Everyone (and I mean everyone) has their own personal preferences, usually based on familiarity. Essentially, the differences between microcontrollers matter only on the kind of support that is available and the complications that may come up because of interfacing. Vehicle electronics is pretty darned simple to interface, so that leaves support, which is pretty good everywhere you go. The specific features to look for will probably boil down to: Is DSP capability necessary (the speed limitation)? Is lots of memory necessary (the giant array problems)? Now, lots of people have said that you need current state-of-the-art processors to ever hope to be able to do engine control management. I can illustrate where this mistaken belief comes from with current available PC's. Workstations and the Amiga computer rely heavily on custom chips for their graphics. Essentially, some of the highly repetitive or large array-type problems are done on custom chips. The normal processor just sequences the operations. How much is done in custom chips and how much is done by the processor depends on the system. Taken to the extreme, the Macintosh (at least it used to) does EVERYTHING down to the pixel level on the main processor. The Nintendo-type game boxes do almost everything on specialized chips. What does this matter? Well, the claim is that very expensive and fast processors are required to do EFI. This is not true. Use a PLL and some programmable comparators and counters to do all the nasty timing intensive work. All your processor has to do is be able to keep up with the important events (a reasonable response time), not diddle around with the timing for every single injector pulse. 4. Someone suggested strongly several times that the first project should be getting a high performance electronic ignition module working. So far, all the opinions on this list have suggested that the standard induction coil charge route with transistor drives is the way to go. I agree, but before I take the plunge, I have several questions. I have read Mr. Jacob's blurbs and tried to determine just what it is that his little blue boxes are doing so you'll know where I'm coming from. a. Don't bother with Jacob's patent. All it does is detail the actual physical driver, not the control aspects. I've already got a copy and there is not anything really earth shaking in it. b. How does one detect knock? And what do you do about it from an ignition point of view? c. What is the optimum spark voltage? The higher the better or is there some curve? How do you measure it? What are the dependent variables? d. How long should you maintain a spark? I have seen mention that it should remain lit until TDC, but since your flame front has a certain amount of propagation time, it seems that you may want to stop earlier. And this will depend on engine rotation speed since the burn time is a constant, but it should complete right at TDC? Or before or after? e. How do you determine when to start the spark? I suppose this is related to the previous question. f. Jacobs claims he measures the resistance (??) of the spark gap when the spark is or is not (??) lit to determine conditions inside the piston chamber. Determining spark voltage/current should be a simple thing to do, along with measuring resistance inside the chamber before/after burn, but what does this tell you and how can you use it? 5. What I am thinking of is this: SAE 750348 details an ignition system that lets you vary the starting voltage, the voltage to hold the spark, and the duration of the spark. Some simple modifications could allow for relighting the spark if it goes out, taking measurements, etc. All of these operations could be controlled by a few dollars in discrete parts. A microcontroller can be used to actually set up the ignition module and do the more complicated measurements and calculations. From a user-standpoint, I'd like to be able to stick a laptop on it and take in data as well as have some nifty diagnostic lights in the cab and also toggle switches and/or a spark advance potentiometer in the cab. A car alarm port would be nice, too. All of that stuff could come from a header on the side of the classic mysterious black (or blue) box. But to build the box, I need to know what is going on (answers to question 4). 6. I've found the SAE Transactions in the local library (Michigan Tech., Van Pelt), and they do pretty good but they don't even come close to having all of the papers SAE publishes. Some of the "unpublished" ones have been posted on this mailing list. Does SAE publish any other journals that have them or do you have to call SAE and pay for a specific paper for the majority of them? My bachelor's degree is in electrical engineering, so I'm used to the IEEE system where practically everything on anything has probably been published in some obscure journal, but this doesn't appear to be the case for SAE. From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 17:37:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04391; Fri, 12 May 95 17:37:18 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04377; Fri, 12 May 95 13:37:15 -0400 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA08057 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 12 May 95 10:37:09 MST Received: from emailchd by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA17994; Fri, 12 May 95 10:37:07 MST Received: by wdc.sps.mot.com (4.1/WDC-1.02) Fri, 12 May 95 10:36:56 MST Date: Fri, 12 May 95 10:36:56 MST From: Mark Shaw Message-Id: <9505121736.AA26475@wdc.sps.mot.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: re: o2 and EGT questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > At the risk of further driving efi'ers up the wall, what oxygen > concentration in the exhaust corresponds to a stoichiometric mixture. > Naively, one would expect that a stoichiometric mixture having undergone > complete combustion would not have any residual oxygen. A common misunderstanding about stoichiometric. It is actually the condition where the correct amount of air (containing the correct amount of oxygen) is combined with the correct amount of fuel in order to provide for complete combustion of all the carbon and hydrogen to CO2 and water. In reality, "complete combustion" never really happens mainly due to some fuel mixture not being burned (i.e. caught in piston crevices or swept though the exhaust valve due to overlap) and the "robbing" of oxygen from the process by oxidation of the nitrogen at the high temperatures and pressures of the combustion. So some oxygen never gets used, and even for rich mixtures there may be 0.2 to 0.3% of O2 in the exhaust. The concentration at stoichiometric is given by Bosch is around 0.7% O2 (by volume). Mark From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 18:13:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04650; Fri, 12 May 95 18:13:24 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04636; Fri, 12 May 95 14:13:20 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA02676 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 12 May 1995 14:13:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:14:22 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950512141422.210474c6@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >From: Ed Lansinger > >As I recall, the ZR-1 has dual runners going to each port. There is a >butterfly valve in each secondary runner which is opened by a motor at >the PCM's command for WOT operation. The Taurus SHO has had the same setup since it was introduced (88?). Jack From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 18:37:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04718; Fri, 12 May 95 18:37:08 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04704; Fri, 12 May 95 14:37:05 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06855; Fri, 12 May 1995 12:39:48 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86794; Fri, 12 May 1995 12:35:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:34:30 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Density of air To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone have the standard density of air handy ... I need it for a quick calculation, and my refs. are not here! Thanks .. Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 18:49:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04752; Fri, 12 May 95 18:49:14 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04738; Fri, 12 May 95 14:49:10 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA10794 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 12 May 1995 14:48:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:49:57 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950512144957.210474c6@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: RE: Ignition module Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI From: "Paul E. Campbell" >All your processor has to do is be able to keep up with the important >events (a reasonable response time), not diddle around with the timing for >every single injector pulse. You'll get a **BIG** debate on that statement from those "in" the industry ! >b. How does one detect knock? And what do you do about it from an ignition >point of view? Knock is usually detected with a resonator type sensor. The specific mounting location that will give the best results is very engine dependent. Spark is usually retarded on an individual cylinder basis. >c. What is the optimum spark voltage? The higher the better or is there some >curve? How do you measure it? What are the dependent variables? This is not my field of expertise, but I do know that the current Ford ignition systems generate lower voltages than what we had 15+ years ago. That high a voltage just wasn't necessary. Voltage is measured directly with special high voltage probes (like those for measuring CRT voltages). The bigger the gap on the plug, the more voltage required to break it down. >d. How long should you maintain a spark? In general, the longer the better. The big reason is to prevent possible "flame out" on air/fuel mixtures with poor distribution. There are two approaches: high engery (long duration) or multiple restrike. >How do you determine when to start the spark? I suppose this is related to >the previous question. There are lots of papers on MBT (bean best timing) and IMEP (indicated mean effect pressure). Higher IMEP = more power. >6. I've found the SAE Transactions in the local library (Michigan Tech., >Van Pelt), and they do pretty good but they don't even come close to having >all of the papers SAE publishes. Some of the "unpublished" ones have been >posted on this mailing list. Does SAE publish any other journals that have >them or do you have to call SAE and pay for a specific paper for the majority >of them? My bachelor's degree is in electrical engineering, so I'm used to >the IEEE system where practically everything on anything has probably been >published in some obscure journal, but this doesn't appear to be the case for >SAE. I have two small (<20 pg) catalogs from SAE containing many different books and/or collections of papers. The first is called "SAE Publication on Electronics" (catalog number 2884). Lots of good books in here, such as "Automotive Electric/Electronics Systems", "Automotive Handbook" (both from Bosch), "Automotive Sensory Systems", "1995 Electronic Engine Controls" (a collection of 16 paper), etc. The other catalog (2894) has more general automotive titles. SAE phone number is 412-776-4970. Jack From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 18:58:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04786; Fri, 12 May 95 18:58:16 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04772; Fri, 12 May 95 14:58:13 -0400 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 12 May 95 13:58:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:58:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan A Erickson Subject: Re: Density of air To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 12 May 1995, Jim Conforti wrote: > > Does anyone have the standard density of air handy ... > > I need it for a quick calculation, and my refs. are not here! > > Thanks .. > > Jim Conforti > > > > > 1.18 kg/cubic meter at 1 atm and ~70 F. Later, Ryan From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 22:55:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05334; Fri, 12 May 95 22:55:47 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA05320; Fri, 12 May 95 18:55:44 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06049; Fri, 12 May 95 16:55:41 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16520; Fri, 12 May 95 16:55:39 MDT Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:55:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Octane Sensing To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Has anyone on this group looked into correlating octane with efi sensor readings? I imagine that an knock, spark advance and engine load might be combined to form some estimate of octane level. It would be interesting to know which gasoline vendors are behaving in an honorable manor. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Fri May 12 23:03:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05365; Fri, 12 May 95 23:03:38 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA05351; Fri, 12 May 95 19:03:35 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06071; Fri, 12 May 95 17:03:31 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16544; Fri, 12 May 95 17:03:29 MDT Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 17:03:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Gas Sensors other than O2 To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI We have seen quite a bit of correspondence regarding oxygen sensors recently. Would other types of sensors (CO2, CO, NOx, H2O) be applicable to engine control? How are these types of sensors mechanized on present day smog inspection equipment? Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Sun May 14 18:06:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10072; Sun, 14 May 95 18:06:29 GMT Received: from mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA10058; Sun, 14 May 95 14:06:25 -0400 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA24921 for ; Sun, 14 May 1995 14:06:25 -0400 Received: from snickers.mm (snickers.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.133]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id OAA08370 for ; Sun, 14 May 1995 14:06:21 -0400 From: "Paul E. Campbell" X-Authentication-Warning: mmserver.mm.mtu.edu: Host snickers.mm.mtu.edu claimed to be snickers.mm Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by snickers.mm (8.6.10/MTU-1.2) id OAA03284 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 14 May 1995 14:06:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199505141806.OAA03284@snickers.mm> Subject: Re: Ignition module To: DIY_EFI Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 14:06:07 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <950512144957.210474c6@etcv01.eld.ford.com> from "PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com" at May 12, 95 02:49:57 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 7235 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com writes: > >b. How does one detect knock? And what do you do about it from an ignition > >point of view? > > Knock is usually detected with a resonator type sensor. The specific mounting > location that will give the best results is very engine dependent. Spark is > usually retarded on an individual cylinder basis. Can you list an example? > >c. What is the optimum spark voltage? The higher the better or is there some > >curve? How do you measure it? What are the dependent variables? > > This is not my field of expertise, but I do know that the current Ford ignition > systems generate lower voltages than what we had 15+ years ago. That high a > voltage just wasn't necessary. Voltage is measured directly with special high > voltage probes (like those for measuring CRT voltages). The bigger the gap on > the plug, the more voltage required to break it down. The way that you normally measure these is either the suggestion given on the list before (measure the voltage across a very small resistor) or by placing a couple turns of wire around the wire you want to measure. The coil acts like a transformer and lets you tap the signal. This is also the operating principle of those "clamp ammeters" for power lines that have a jaw that fits around the line. > >d. How long should you maintain a spark? > > In general, the longer the better. The big reason is to prevent possible > "flame out" on air/fuel mixtures with poor distribution. There are two > approaches: high engery (long duration) or multiple restrike. I can build a circuit that uses the coil like an inductor to initiate the spark, then leave it connected to the battery (with appropriate resistance) to continue maintaining the spark for as long as I want acting as a transformer rather than an energy storage device (high energy). I can also use capacitors which are cheaper and often easier to work with to generate as many sparks as you want (multiple restrike). The duration on these is pretty much infinite. Start when I want and stop when I want. So the question becomes WHEN to start and stop and what to measure to determine this. Is there somewhere that a comparison of multiple restrike vs. high energy has been done? I would conjecture that you could couple the coil directly to the spark plug. Keep ramping up the charge (feeding the primary) until it goes to discharge, then maintain the juice to the spark plug for the required amount of time at the lower spark maintaining voltage. In this case, the spark will ignite when there is enough potential to achieve breakdown, unless there is a leakage problem since the dielectric constant is going to be low with the fuel/air mixture in the chamber? Anyone who has ever done arc welding will understand this example intuitively. After discharge occurs, there is an ionized trail inside the chamber. Enough turbulence will move the ions around that multiple restrike probably has problems following the original ionization trail, so it would have to reionize the same spark gap each time. The advantage is that the charge does not have to be maintained over the entire ignition interval. The only way that a high energy system would have to restrike is if the spark went out due to the "spark maintaining voltage" being too low. As far as how long, there should be SOME way to tell when to quit. I know that Ford usually specifies that somewhere between about 65 degrees BTDC to 10 degrees ATDC is the right range to start (as far as the TFI module in the EEC-IV system goes) and the amount of time to spark ranges up to 1500 milliseconds. Now, the start time should probably occur so that the force from expanding gasses hits right when the piston is at TDC so that it does not interfere with the compression stroke and maximum power is achieved during the downward stroke. The time for this to occur should be a fixed time in a static condition, but the effect of compressing gasses (from the piston compression) probably modifies the idea of a "fixed reaction rate". The compression will be identical in every stroke at TDC, but the rate of compression may or may not be a factor (is it?). Aside from calculating the TIME necessary for expansion to become significant after ignition, there is the fact that as the engine runs faster, this "constant" time (assuming rate of compression is not a factor) causes the point where spark should occur to be further and further back from TDC since TDC comes sooner. Two other factors are the fact that the EFI module will be varying the fuel mixture, which causes the spark ignition point to change, and the time necessary to ramp up to the ignition voltage itself (dwell time) in a high energy system. Once you have started the spark on time, the time to stop the spark is either when the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke (or the exhaust valve closes) or when the fuel has been burned either completely or as far as you're going to get it. For the latter, it seems to me that the conductivity of the exhaust will be significantly lower than the fuel/air mixture and that you should be able to measure the appropriate shutoff time by measuring the conductivity of the spark gap in the ignition module. I may be shooting blanks here. If so, I invite someone to rip me to shreds. > >How do you determine when to start the spark? I suppose this is related to > >the previous question. > > There are lots of papers on MBT (bean best timing) and IMEP (indicated mean > effect pressure). Higher IMEP = more power. I will look for them. I guess I was really asking for a GOOD example, such as a nice review/summary or one of those "breakthrough" type papers that reviews everyone else's work before presenting the new technique. > I have two small (<20 pg) catalogs from SAE containing many different books > and/or collections of papers. The first is called "SAE Publication on > Electronics" (catalog number 2884). Lots of good books in here, such as > "Automotive Electric/Electronics Systems", "Automotive Handbook" (both from > Bosch), "Automotive Sensory Systems", "1995 Electronic Engine Controls" (a > collection of 16 paper), etc. The other catalog (2894) has more general > automotive titles. SAE phone number is 412-776-4970. Most societies have multiple journals broken down by category. Usually, there are about 10-20 major journals. I was not being clear, but I was trying to find out if SAE has such things. I've found a couple minor ones, but I didn't know if SAE publishes a regular journal related to say spark ignition engines or fuel injection or combustion engines. The nice thing about the journals is that you can pretty rapidly learn a lot about the "traditional ways of doing things" and what books in the industry are considered "bibles", even though the value of most of the journal articles may be very low since research papers usually deal with obscure or special circumstances or attempts at characterizing known qualitative observations. Since you mentioned mean best timing and indicated mean effect pressure, I will check the papers and books here for those key words and read up on it (essentially doing a search on it using journals as indices). From owner-diy_efi Sun May 14 23:53:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11682; Sun, 14 May 95 23:53:49 GMT Received: from mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11668; Sun, 14 May 95 19:53:46 -0400 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA11114 for ; Sun, 14 May 1995 19:53:46 -0400 Received: from metlab4.my.mtu.edu (metlab4.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.84]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id TAA10069 for ; Sun, 14 May 1995 19:53:42 -0400 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab4.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id TAA25334 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 14 May 1995 19:53:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199505142353.TAA25334@metlab4.my.mtu.edu> Subject: Ignition contd. To: diy_efi (DIY EFI) Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 19:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2814 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I did about 4 hours of research today and this is the best I found: 1. The spark duration should be as long as the flame delay; the delay between "ignition" (the spark initiates) to the pressure rise in the cylinder. This delay is affected by: The fuel-air ratio Dynamic and thermodynamic state of the mixture around the spark plug The ignition system (assuming you don't spark long enough) More than that is pretty much a waste of energy. At that point, you will have a good growing flame front going. Before that, the flame front may be self-sustaining and then go into growing mode, or it may go out. Still can't find any reasonable references for measuring the flame front. If you do it right, then you shut the spark off at TDC since the pressure rise now coincides with TDC, right where it should be. This point is specified as the minimum advance for best torque (MBT) as long as you avoid running into either the knock limit or the retard limit (point where incomplete combustion occurs). In practice, it appears that the retard limit can probably be ignored but the advance limit will always be present. 2. There are LOTS of different spark ignition systems. The major different systems are the capacitive discharge system, inductive ignition, and gated oscillators. For inductive discharge, connect the primary of the coil (transformer) to your battery. It will begin charging up (storing energy). When you are ready to initiate a spark, disconnect the battery. The primary coil will try to discharge all that energy into the secondary coil of the transformer, which is attached to the spark plug. This system has a 25-75 microsecond rise time and a 1-2 millisecond duration. Higher voltages give more stored energy which gives you a longer duration..that was the reason for the high energy spark systems in the early 80's. Capacitive discharge systems charge up a capacitor, then discharge the capacitor through the coil's primary. These systems have fast rise times (3-20microseconds) but only a 5-50 microsecond duration. Gated oscillator systems turn a high frequency oscillator on and off which is feeding the coil primary. They have a pretty much infinite and controllable duration but they are serious power suckers...not very efficient. There are restriking versions of all of these. And there are a few systems which use charge pumps to maintain spark sustaining power in the inductive discharge system for an arbitrary time. SAE 920575 details a hybrid system which uses both capacitive discharge and an inductor to achieve fast rise times and an indefinite duration. 3. The spark voltage and current are not really too important as long as you manage to strike a spark and try to feed as much energy into the flame kernel plasma as you can (increasing the spark voltage helps). From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 00:13:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11738; Mon, 15 May 95 00:13:47 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11724; Sun, 14 May 95 20:13:42 -0400 Received: from mechman.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA02080; Mon, 15 May 1995 10:13:32 +1000 Received: from MECHMAN/MERCMAIL by mechman.mm.swin.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 15 May 95 10:12:35 +1000 Received: from MERCMAIL by MECHMAN (Mercury 1.21); 15 May 95 10:12:31 +1000 From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 10:12:28 EST+10 Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.20-pr2) Message-Id: <2A26A47566@mechman.mm.swin.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > From: Craig Pugsley > Hi, > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg > 7500 rpm) IE: > In the Bosch Automotive Electronics Handbook they talk about rev limiting by chopping spark, but they use a hysteresis of 80RPM ie spark disabled at 7580, and reenabled when revs drop to 7500. This way you won't skip too many sparks so you won't get a huge backfire. I went to the 2L super touring car racing at Calder Park on Saturday night and you could hear when the drivers hit the rev limiters as the car started missing (until they remembered to change gears :) ). I also understand that MOTEC use this 'spark dropping' technique in their traction control algorithms. Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 01:30:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11895; Mon, 15 May 95 01:30:03 GMT Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11881; Sun, 14 May 95 21:30:00 -0400 Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA26722 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 14 May 1995 18:29:17 -0700 Received: by crl5.crl.com id AA10364 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Sun, 14 May 1995 18:28:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 18:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lawrence S. Harris III" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control In-Reply-To: <2A26A47566@mechman.mm.swin.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the > > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of > > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain > > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg > > 7500 rpm) IE: > In the Bosch Automotive Electronics Handbook they talk about rev > limiting by chopping spark, but they use a hysteresis of 80RPM ie > spark disabled at 7580, and reenabled when revs drop to 7500. This > way you won't skip too many sparks so you won't get a huge backfire. I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above would be a must. I would guess with too little or no hysteresis, that a really lean condidtion may occur as the computer would kind of half heartedly feed fuel right around the rev limit. Sending unburnt fuel out into the exaust system seems quite nasty. Lots of drag racers use this technique with a two stage rev limiter where they sit on the line limiting the revs on their "launch" RPM. Some cars will sit on the line backfiring through the exaust terribly. This can only lead to thoughts of "There's got to be a better way". Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no one uses this method, why not? Thanks Larry Harris lharris@crl.com (pref) or lharris@msm.mea.com '86 Mustang LX 5.0 Coupe (149K) '82 BMW 635CSi Euro (121K) Meyers Tow'd Dune Buggy (1776cc) '83 Toyota Tercel (180K) From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 09:26:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12493; Mon, 15 May 95 09:26:48 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA12479; Mon, 15 May 95 05:26:44 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.195] (osse42.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA10941 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 15 May 1995 11:26:40 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:29:39 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Larry Harris writes; >I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider >cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above >would be a must. I would guess with too little or no hysteresis, that a >really lean condidtion may occur as the computer would kind of half >heartedly feed fuel right around the rev limit. Sending unburnt fuel out >into the exaust system seems quite nasty. Lots of drag racers use this >technique with a two stage rev limiter where they sit on the line >limiting the revs on their "launch" RPM. Some cars will sit on the line >backfiring through the exaust terribly. This can only lead to thoughts >of "There's got to be a better way". > >Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no >one uses this method, why not? We did play with fuel cutoff device for a BMW 3.0SI 10y ago. Our aim was to increase the enginebreaking by cutting of the fuel as the trottle was close and rew. abowe 1500. We did also use the unit to cut of the fuel at abowe 7000+ as a rewlimiter. Used only a few devices as electronic rew.counter curcuit, 2 comparators, a Hall-element for the trothle position and a powerstage to cut the powerline to the injectors. We had to install switch to disengage the enginebreak at winther as it would break to hard on snow, specially in turns. Else it was great. --- sven-erik -- From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 13:21:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA12936; Mon, 15 May 95 13:21:09 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA12922; Mon, 15 May 95 09:21:01 -0400 Received: from bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (bal [134.169.34.11]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA15100 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 15:20:50 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA07446 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 15 May 1995 15:20:48 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505151320.PAA07446@bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 15 May 95 15:20:47 MET DST In-Reply-To: from "Lawrence S. Harris III" at May 14, 95 06:28:24 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider > cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above My VW Polo-G40 cuts off fuel, to protect the catal. conv. as VW says. Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 13:48:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13089; Mon, 15 May 95 13:48:06 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA13061; Mon, 15 May 95 09:48:01 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA023865680; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:48:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 09:48:00 -0400 From: Lfaustini@aol.com Message-Id: <950515094659_119119201@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On the idea of rev-limiting... (I didn=92t want to re-quote the previous = sets of messages).. The idea of dropping fuel injectors during a very-high-stress conditi= on in the engine (I.E. at 5k and up RPMs) scares me.. Forgive my ignorance, = but doesn=92t the fuel in the air-fuel mixture help cool and lubricate the to= p-half of the piston and rings? Remember, internal horsepower losses due to fric= tion loss grow at approximately the SQUARE of the RPM's, so at high speeds the= lubrication of the piston is extremely important. I don't claim to be an= expe rt on the dynamics of lubrication (or anything else for that matter), but= I do know that if you tried that trick on a 2-stroker you would be running = to the machine shop with tears in your eyes and a feeling of loss in your po= cket. =2E.. :) ---Lou From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 13:48:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13090; Mon, 15 May 95 13:48:06 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA13062; Mon, 15 May 95 09:48:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id XAA26837; Sat, 13 May 1995 23:02:23 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199505131102.XAA26837@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Ignition module To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 23:02:23 +1200 (NZST) In-Reply-To: <199505121614.MAA23614@metlab6.my.mtu.edu> from "Paul E. Campbell" at May 12, 95 12:14:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2129 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Paul raises quite a few points that I would like to comment or expand on. Firstly, I agree about the amount of CPU power required. As far as a micro is concerned there is plenty of time to think about what to do next. Even a V8 at 8000rpm is only firing every couple of milliseconds. If you take 100us in an interrupt routine to act on this, that still leaves 95% of the time to decide what the values should be. I'm curious about the application of fuzzy logic in engine control and _may_ experiment in that area. Even so, given the assistance of a TPU, I would expect the 332 to be over CPU'd unless you are really trying to model the engine down to the tiniest detail or control a lot of other systems with the same CPU. Knock detection. I'm interested in hearing more on this. The recent discussions on spark plug current flow were another area I had been planning on experimenting with. However, a bit more reading later and I'm no so sure. From what I have found out so far, it seems to be an ideal way of determining pre and post ignition but not knock. If pre or post ignition is detected, you can dtermine that the risk of knock is very high but that is all. My understanding of 'knock sensors' is that they rely on the resonant frequency characteristics of the block. How make specific is this ? Since my testbed engine is a pre-war flathead, I doubt there is manufacturers data and I'm a little reluctatnt to determine knock characteristics by experiment. Spark duration. My previous impression was that the longer duration, the better and that the voltage required was purely a function of the gap which was as wide as possible but still mainitained reliable operation in all circumstances. This is all still more or less true but, I have since learnt that the energy transfer during the breakdown phase is substantially higher than during the sustained phase. This and the fact that plug wear and heat buildup occur in the later phase, makes me much more in favour of the MSD approach. I guess this is best determined by measuring the plug resistance. Keep adding spark until there is no more burning. Steve. From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 14:07:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13402; Mon, 15 May 95 14:07:02 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA13357; Mon, 15 May 95 10:06:48 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA02921; Mon, 15 May 95 16:05:02 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:05:02 +0200 Message-Id: <9505151405.AA02921@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >> > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the >> > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of >> > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain >> > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg >> > 7500 rpm) IE: >> In the Bosch Automotive Electronics Handbook they talk about rev >> limiting by chopping spark, but they use a hysteresis of 80RPM ie >> spark disabled at 7580, and reenabled when revs drop to 7500. This >> way you won't skip too many sparks so you won't get a huge backfire. > >I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider >cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above >would be a must. I would guess with too little or no hysteresis, that a >really lean condidtion may occur as the computer would kind of half >heartedly feed fuel right around the rev limit. The most probable thing to get as a result is to increase the temperature in the combustion chamber. The fuel actualy acts as a coolant. > >Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no >one uses this method, why not? > I think it is better to ignite later, than cutting off the fuel, in that way the engine is not able to raise its r.p.m, while getting sufficient cooling from the incoming petrol /Georg Siotis/ From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 14:09:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13494; Mon, 15 May 95 14:09:13 GMT Received: from SPECKLE.NCSL.NIST.GOV by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA13475; Mon, 15 May 95 10:09:10 -0400 Received: by speckle.ncsl.nist.gov (4.1/SMI-3.2-del/cas.6) id AA08753; Mon, 15 May 95 10:09:03 EDT Date: Mon, 15 May 95 10:09:03 EDT From: chris@speckle.ncsl.nist.gov (Chris Schanzle) Message-Id: <9505151409.AA08753@speckle.ncsl.nist.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Mapping O2 values to Air/Fuel ratio Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone have a function or a table that maps O2 sensor readings to air fuel ratios? I've been reading my O2 sensors for years and have always been curious about this. For example, .900v = 14.1:1? Thanks, Chris Schanzle From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 14:18:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA13591; Mon, 15 May 95 14:18:14 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA13573; Mon, 15 May 95 10:17:35 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA04097; Mon, 15 May 95 16:17:11 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:17:11 +0200 Message-Id: <9505151417.AA04097@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Building descriptions for EFI ??? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello! I was wondering if there is anyone having some EFI circuit ideas, programs (in C or assembler, any processor). If so, it would be great to have them as an inspiration for projects on building EFI:s on a hobby basis. Even simple algortihms, or tips on where to find them (books, articles etc) would be very appreciated. Thanks in advance /Georg Siotis/ Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 15:23:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14086; Mon, 15 May 95 15:23:31 GMT Received: from devnull.mpd.tandem.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA14072; Mon, 15 May 95 11:23:27 -0400 Received: from trinity by devnull (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA02611; Mon, 15 May 1995 10:23:09 -0500 Received: by trinity (4.1/TSS2.1) id AA04340; Mon, 15 May 95 10:23:23 CDT From: joe@mpd.tandem.com (Joe Senner) Message-Id: <9505151523.AA04340@trinity> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 10:23:22 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9505151405.AA02921@nomina.lu.se> from "Georg Siotis" at May 15, 95 04:05:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1166 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI ]>I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider ]>cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above ]>would be a must. I would guess with too little or no hysteresis, that a ]>really lean condidtion may occur as the computer would kind of half ]>heartedly feed fuel right around the rev limit. ] ]>Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no ]>one uses this method, why not? ] ]I think it is better to ignite later, than cutting off the fuel, in that way ]the engine is not able to raise its r.p.m, while getting sufficient cooling ]from the incoming petrol jumping in a little late here, but my BMW (from all the explanations I've gotten) cuts fuel supply by 50% 500rpm below rev limit, and then cuts it 100% at rev limit. it also cuts fuel supply on trailing throttle. oddly enough (and I've seen this one played out on the CO meter) it enrichens the mixture by quite a bit to control overheating. I can't verify this is all correct, but hopefully I'll be able to after a bit (when Jim Conforti gets through with his handywork :-) -- Joe Senner http://www.onr.com/user/joe.html From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 15:27:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14120; Mon, 15 May 95 15:27:32 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA14106; Mon, 15 May 95 11:27:30 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <168041-2>; Mon, 15 May 1995 11:28:34 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11334; Mon, 15 May 95 11:21:42 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011332; Mon May 15 11:21:34 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06459; Mon, 15 May 95 11:22:51 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA09136; Mon, 15 May 95 11:27:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:27:18 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9505151527.AA09136@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ignition module Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > I'm a little reluctatnt to determine knock > characteristics by experiment. Why? I little knocking won't hurt anything. As soon as you hear knocking, back off and no permanent damage will be done. If the EFI system is working right, you'll never hear the knock. If you do, it means your EFI system needs more work. After all, after an engine is more than a few years old, the best way to set the timing is usually by ear. :-) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 18:01:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15720; Mon, 15 May 95 18:01:52 GMT Received: from nrcnet.nrc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA15706; Mon, 15 May 95 14:01:49 -0400 Received: from DECNET-MAIL by NRCNET.NRC.CA (PMDF #12639) id <01HQJ6QXZKBK8WVYYZ@NRCNET.NRC.CA>; Mon, 15 May 1995 12:51 EST Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:51 EST From: Peter Orban Subject: Re: Ignition module To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HQJ6QXZKBK8WVYYZ@NRCNET.NRC.CA> X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Vms-To: NRCNET::IN%"DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI ... > Knock detection. > I'm interested in hearing more on this. The recent discussions on spark ... > My understanding of 'knock sensors' is that they rely on the resonant > frequency characteristics of the block. How make specific is this ? ... I have no hands on experience whith these, but I can tell how VW developed their knock sensing DGIFANT EFI. They used an instrumented engine block for the development. In the combustion chamber they installed a piezo pressure transducer to verify the knock condition. They also installed a piezo accelerometer on the side of the block, that is the sensor for the production version. For finding the placement of this sensor they used holographic photo techniques to find the vibrational node points on the block. That was the place where they put the sensor. When the engine was knocking, they could identify that easily from the time domain pressure signals, just by visual analysis. They did FFT analysis of the accelerometer signal and correlated that signal with the fact if the engine was knocking or not. When the engine was knocking, they got peaks at 7.5KHz in the frequency domain. On the production version that filtering is done by an analog electronic filter. The event is also windowed, the output of the filter monitored only at ignition time. I would imagine, that the 7.5 KHz would be the resonant freaquency of the block with everything on it, and knocking would give the exitation of the system. Would be interesting to hook up a DSO to the output of a knock sensor on a VW, and hit the block with something, and analyze the output to see if this is the case. Peter -- Peter Orban National Research Council of Canada Internet: peter.orban@nrc.ca From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 18:14:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15815; Mon, 15 May 95 18:14:49 GMT Received: from [137.227.80.2] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA15801; Mon, 15 May 95 14:14:43 -0400 Received: by src.src.usbm.gov (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA22133; Mon, 15 May 1995 11:19:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Sun, 14 May 1995, Lawrence S. Harris III wrote: > > I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider > cutting fuel rather than spark. > Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no > one uses this method, why not? My '84 Colt Turbo cuts fuel when boost rises above 9.5 psi. The fuel cut is very abrupt and though it may protect the engine, it probably puts unnecessary stress on the drivetrain. Sometimes I hit the fuel cut when I pass...foot to the floor, driving in the oncoming lane and suddenly..WHAM it cuts fuel. You can feel the transmission lurch and the motor mounts strain in the gear shifter. I a more progressive fuel cut approach would be a lot better, and the same for a rev-limitter. Does anyone know what effect cutting fuel at peak boost or peak rpm has on detonation? Is their any risk of damaging the engine by running too lean for a split second? Which is more dangerous: Cutting fuel (suddenly or progressively) and leaning out or cutting spark and backfiring? Thanks, Joel Robinson robinj@src.usbm.gov From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 21:29:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17086; Mon, 15 May 95 21:29:22 GMT Received: from bbfm.di.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17072; Mon, 15 May 95 17:29:16 -0400 Received: from thunk.di.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.13) with SMTP id OAA17741 for on Mon, 15 May 1995 14:29:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 14:29:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199505152129.OAA17741@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: today@di.com (Todd Day) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no >one uses this method, why not? The ECU in the Eagle Talon cuts both fuel and spark to *all* cylinders at rev limit and has a hysteresis of 200RPM (cuts at 7500, re-enables at 7300). It also does this same fuel cut when the fueling limits have been exceeded (i.e., too much airflow). The ECU is pretty anal about not fueling a non-sparking cylinder. It can determine when one of the drivers that controls the FETs that control the coils fails and will let you limp along on two cylinders while not fueling the other two cylinders. -todd- From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 23:07:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17406; Mon, 15 May 95 23:07:50 GMT Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17392; Mon, 15 May 95 19:07:46 -0400 Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA08571 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 15 May 1995 16:07:01 -0700 Received: by crl5.crl.com id AA01962 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 15 May 1995 16:06:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 16:06:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lawrence S. Harris III" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control In-Reply-To: <9505151523.AA04340@trinity> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > jumping in a little late here, but my BMW (from all the explanations I've > gotten) cuts fuel supply by 50% 500rpm below rev limit, and then cuts it Are you sure of this? This seems like a recipie for how to blow up a motor. If the car was running at a full throttle mixture of 12:1, and suddenly before reaching the rev limit it went to 24:1, this would have most uncool results. Larry Harris lharris@crl.com (pref) or lharris@msm.mea.com '86 Mustang LX 5.0 Coupe (149K) '82 BMW 635CSi Euro (121K) Meyers Tow'd Dune Buggy (1776cc) '83 Toyota Tercel (180K) From owner-diy_efi Mon May 15 23:23:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17444; Mon, 15 May 95 23:23:46 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17430; Mon, 15 May 95 19:23:43 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07854; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:26:26 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86889; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:22:18 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 17:21:46 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 15 May 1995, Lawrence S. Harris III wrote: > > jumping in a little late here, but my BMW (from all the explanations I've > > gotten) cuts fuel supply by 50% 500rpm below rev limit, and then cuts it > > Are you sure of this? This seems like a recipie for how to blow up a > motor. If the car was running at a full throttle mixture of 12:1, and > suddenly before reaching the rev limit it went to 24:1, this would have > most uncool results. What it really does is cut half of the cylinders .... hence fuel by 50% ... Jim COnforti From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 02:21:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17852; Tue, 16 May 95 02:21:41 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17838; Mon, 15 May 95 22:21:35 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id MAA13816 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 16 May 1995 12:21:28 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505160221.MAA13816@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 12:21:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mike Wesley - SLIP" at May 12, 95 07:29:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1345 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > On Fri, 12 May 1995, Craig Pugsley wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the > > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of > > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain > > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg > > 7500 rpm) IE: > > > > > I would cut fuel instead of spark (or at least both) if your going to be > ramping the spark out. I'm assuming you're killing the spark instead of > retarding it when your limiter is starting to come on. I tried this a few > years back and blew a few mufflers off the car. > Mike... > C & M Racing Systems > > I second this. We recently had a bug with our research engine which cut the spark under partial load conditions and subsequently blew a double skin stainless steel muffler inside out. Robert -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 03:30:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17979; Tue, 16 May 95 03:30:28 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17965; Mon, 15 May 95 23:30:24 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id NAA16345 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 16 May 1995 13:30:17 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505160330.NAA16345@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:30:16 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9505151405.AA02921@nomina.lu.se> from "Georg Siotis" at May 15, 95 04:05:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2344 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry, I should have included this reply with my previous post. > >I'm surprised that with an EFI system that people wouldn't consider > >cutting fuel rather than spark. Of course hysteresis as mentioned above > >would be a must. I would guess with too little or no hysteresis, that a > >really lean condidtion may occur as the computer would kind of half > >heartedly feed fuel right around the rev limit. > > The most probable thing to get as a result is to increase the temperature in > the combustion chamber. The fuel actualy acts as a coolant. > > > > >Has anyone out there played with cutting fuel rather than spark? If no > >one uses this method, why not? > > > > I think it is better to ignite later, than cutting off the fuel, in that way > the engine is not able to raise its r.p.m, while getting sufficient cooling > from the incoming petrol > > > /Georg Siotis/ > An important point to note is that the engine internals get hot mainly due to the combustion of fuel and air. When the fuel stops, so does the combustion (at worst a cycle later when the intake fuel puddle evaporates). The air circulating through the cylinder is more than enough to cool the system due to heat generated by friction. The lean mixture that may be experienced for a single cycle is not significant. I have heard of a recent US engine which can actually operate without any coolant by alternatively switching out half the cylinders and relying on the throughput of air for cooling. Igniting the mixture later (retarded far from MBT) will raise exhaust temps dramatically, potentially melting the exhaust valves and exhaust system. One problem with a smooth progressive rev limiter is that the user may not realise that he/she is at the engine's limit. I have struck this problem driving deisels where the power is dropped very smoothly near max rpm. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 04:47:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18116; Tue, 16 May 95 04:47:03 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18102; Tue, 16 May 95 00:46:58 -0400 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA26667 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 16 May 1995 14:46:47 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199505160446.OAA26667@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Rev limiting To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:46:45 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199505160221.MAA13816@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at May 16, 95 12:21:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1327 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > > > > On Fri, 12 May 1995, Craig Pugsley wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > I'm currently designing a rev limiter that works by cutting out the > > > spark when the revs exceed a certain limit. I was thinking of > > > progressively cutting out more sparks as the revs go over a certain > > > level to reduce power (eg at 7000 rpm) then all the sparks (eg > > > 7500 rpm) IE: > > > > > > > > I would cut fuel instead of spark (or at least both) if your going to be > > I second this. We recently had a bug with our research engine which cut > the spark under partial load conditions and subsequently blew a double skin > stainless steel muffler inside out. While cutting fuel is preferable, the box I am making is for a carb fed application. I had intended to make a spark at a semi-regular interval to avoid exhaust blow up problems. I made one several years ago (with a simple tachometer/comparator curcuit), which seemed to work quite well in it's limiting role, some medium size pops from the exhaust, however it's calibration varied wildly with temperature so I want to use a micro. I'll re-ask the question, Is having sparks cut out 'randomly' likely to be capable of causing mechanical damage to the engine, especially when it's happening at/near maximum power RPM range? Cheers, Craig. pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 04:48:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18140; Tue, 16 May 95 04:48:49 GMT Received: from pobox.oit.umass.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18126; Tue, 16 May 95 00:48:47 -0400 Received: from conrad.oit.umass.edu by pobox.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #6523) id <01HQJVSHEK8000QQMA@pobox.oit.umass.edu>; Tue, 16 May 1995 00:48:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (sisko.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.91.173]) by conrad.oit.umass.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA12281 for ; Tue, 16 May 1995 00:48:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 00:48:43 -0400 From: cons090@oitunix.oit.umass.edu (Jody Shapiro) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control X-Sender: cons090@conrad.oit.umass.edu To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <199505160448.AAA12281@conrad.oit.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I have heard of a recent US engine which can actually operate without any >coolant by alternatively switching out half the cylinders and relying on the >throughput of air for cooling. > >Robert Yes, this is Cadillac's NorthStar engine... -Jody From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 05:16:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18310; Tue, 16 May 95 05:16:35 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18296; Tue, 16 May 95 01:16:29 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0sBEyw-000CwmC; Tue, 16 May 95 00:15 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 00:15:46 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Lawrence S. Harris III" at May 15, 95 04:06:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1213 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Lawrence S. Harris III writes: > > > jumping in a little late here, but my BMW (from all the explanations I've > > gotten) cuts fuel supply by 50% 500rpm below rev limit, and then cuts it > > Are you sure of this? This seems like a recipie for how to blow up a > motor. If the car was running at a full throttle mixture of 12:1, and > suddenly before reaching the rev limit it went to 24:1, this would have > most uncool results. 16:1 would scare the hell out of me, but I believe 24:1 should do its intended function pretty well and do wonders for your NOx emissions :). I don't have any reference to quote, but if I remember right 24:1 is way past where peak (combustion? flame? whats the correct term?) temp starts dropping, and you ought to be running significantly cooler at 24:1 than you were at 12:1. Thats assuming you can actually burn a 24:1 mix worth a flip. I've been out to 25:1 at WOT on CNG (can we say "undercarb'd"?). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 07:40:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18549; Tue, 16 May 95 07:40:03 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18535; Tue, 16 May 95 03:39:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id TAA06224; Tue, 16 May 1995 19:29:25 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199505160729.TAA06224@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Ignition module To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 19:29:24 +1200 (NZST) In-Reply-To: <01HQJ6QXZKBK8WVYYZ@NRCNET.NRC.CA> from "Peter Orban" at May 15, 95 12:51:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1692 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > ... > > Knock detection. > > I'm interested in hearing more on this. The recent discussions on spark > ... > > My understanding of 'knock sensors' is that they rely on the resonant > > frequency characteristics of the block. How make specific is this ? > ... > > I have no hands on experience whith these, but I can tell how VW developed > their knock sensing DGIFANT EFI. They used an instrumented engine block > for the development. In the combustion chamber they installed a piezo > pressure transducer to verify the knock condition. This is an approach I have considered in the past too. Putting a strain gauge on the head next to the plug and looking for deflection in the casting. One area where a flathead has an advantage, I guess. > production version. For finding the placement of this sensor they > used holographic photo techniques to find the vibrational node points on the > block. That was the place where they put the sensor. When the engine was Damn ! I just threw mine out. :-) > I would imagine, that the 7.5 KHz would be the resonant freaquency of the > block with everything on it, and knocking would give the exitation of > the system. Would be interesting to hook up a DSO to the output of a > knock sensor on a VW, and hit the block with something, and analyze the > output to see if this is the case. > This would be interesting to know. If the resonant frequency off a knock is the same as, or related to, the frequency of ringing with a good bash from a hammer. I can imagine some rather puzzled looking car salesmen if you wonder around the lot with a large hammer, banging on the engines and then loading the engine up until it knocks. :-) Steve. From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 14:07:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19107; Tue, 16 May 95 14:07:28 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19093; Tue, 16 May 95 10:07:24 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA11675 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 16 May 1995 10:07:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:08:28 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950516100828.21052ede@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Todd Day said: "The ECU is pretty anal about not fueling a non-sparking cylinder. It can determine when one of the drivers that controls the FETs that control the coils fails and will let you limp along on two cylinders while not fueling the other two cylinders." True ! This is part of the OBD-II diagnostics that CA has forced on all manufacturers. One "misfiring" (incomplete combustion) can seriously reduce the efficiency of a catalyst. A few hundred to a few thousand miles can cause permanent damage to the cat. So if the ECU can determine that a cylinder is misfiring for any reason (bad plug, wire, hung valve, etc.) then no fuel is allowed into the cylinder and the "check engine light" goes on. Jack From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 14:14:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19139; Tue, 16 May 95 14:14:09 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19125; Tue, 16 May 95 10:14:06 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA12898 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 16 May 1995 10:14:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:15:10 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950516101510.21052ede@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Lawrence S. Harris III said " ... If the car was running at a full throttle mixture of 12:1, and suddenly before reaching the rev limit it went to 24:1, this would have most uncool results." This is definitely true (I can't tell you how I know ;-} ) especially if you keep your "foot in it" ! Jack From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 14:28:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19243; Tue, 16 May 95 14:28:56 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19229; Tue, 16 May 95 10:28:52 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA15711 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 16 May 1995 10:28:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950516102956.21052ede@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Rev limiting Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Craig Pugsley asks: "I'll re-ask the question, Is having sparks cut out 'randomly' likely to be capable of causing mechanical damage to the engine, especially when it's happening at/near maximum power RPM range?" If you are microprocessor controlled you have a lot more flexibility. I would use a step by step approach. First, as you approach red line, I would retard the spark. You probably don't want to retard more than say 10 BTDC. If RPM goes past a second limit, you should probably start firing every other cylinder. Finally, past another higher limit, turn of spark entirely. Each of these three point should have a hysteresis of at least 100 RPM. Jack From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 14:35:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19291; Tue, 16 May 95 14:35:36 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19277; Tue, 16 May 95 10:35:33 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0sBNhw-000CvoC; Tue, 16 May 95 09:34 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 09:34:48 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <950516101510.21052ede@etcv01.eld.ford.com> from "PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com" at May 16, 95 10:15:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 688 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com writes: > > " ... If the car was running at a full throttle mixture of 12:1, and > suddenly before reaching the rev limit it went to 24:1, this would have > most uncool results." > > This is definitely true (I can't tell you how I know ;-} ) especially if you > keep your "foot in it" ! What AFR were you at to cause damage? (were you running a UEGO or is this a rectal measurement? :) -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 15:00:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19360; Tue, 16 May 95 15:00:56 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19346; Tue, 16 May 95 11:00:50 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA286816449; Tue, 16 May 1995 11:00:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 11:00:49 -0400 From: Lfaustini@aol.com Message-Id: <950516110047_120491739@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ok, silly question.. I read once, I don=92t remember where, that the= re is a limited range of A/F that can be ignited by a spark. This is not hard t= o believe. I think it was 12-1 on the rich side, and 16-1 on the lean side.= That was for -spark- ignition. If, on the other hand, you were using a fl= ame to produce ignition you could ignite a mixture as lean as 24-1. The artic= le went on to talk of engines that used two different chambers in the head, = one to hold a rich "pocket" of fuel that was spark ignited, and the other cha= mber was used to isolate the induced (much larger amount) lean mixture. There = was a small passage between the chambers, for a =93jet=94 of flame to come ou= t of. The rich mixture would flame-ignite the lean mixture. I think it was call= ed "stratospheric" ignition. Anyway, my question is this.... Why didn=92t th= is engine melt down? I think Honda used to use this technique on their Civic= =2E Any ideas? ---- Lou From owner-diy_efi Tue May 16 16:09:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19573; Tue, 16 May 95 16:09:23 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19559; Tue, 16 May 95 12:09:19 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA06416; Tue, 16 May 95 12:08:33 EDT Message-Id: <9505161608.AA06416@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 12:09:27 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Ok, silly question.. I read once, I don't remember where, that there is >a limited range of A/F that can be ignited by a spark. This is not hard to >believe. I think it was 12-1 on the rich side, and 16-1 on the lean side. >That was for -spark- ignition. If, on the other hand, you were using a flame >to produce ignition you could ignite a mixture as lean as 24-1. The article >went on to talk of engines that used two different chambers in the head, one >to hold a rich "pocket" of fuel that was spark ignited, and the other chamber >was used to isolate the induced (much larger amount) lean mixture. There was >a small passage between the chambers, for a "jet" of flame to come out of. >The rich mixture would flame-ignite the lean mixture. I think it was called >"stratospheric" ignition. Anyway, my question is this.... Why didn't this >engine melt down? I think Honda used to use this technique on their Civic. >Any ideas? Only good reason I can think of is that it was only a lean mixture at cruise conditions. Under acceleration, it was enrichened like any other engine. Honda used it for quite a few years... had a silly 3 barrel carburetor... 1 teeny tiny barrel for the rich combustion chamber, a progressive 2 barrell for the other. It was the CVCC engine. Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 00:06:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21119; Wed, 17 May 95 00:06:58 GMT Received: from uclink.Berkeley.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21105; Tue, 16 May 95 20:06:54 -0400 Received: by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.6.10/1.33(web)-OV4) id RAA20574; Tue, 16 May 1995 17:06:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 17:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: James C Patterson Subject: Re: Rev limiting To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505160446.OAA26667@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Tue, 16 May 1995, Craig Pugsley wrote: > I'll re-ask the question, Is having sparks cut out 'randomly' likely to > be capable of causing mechanical damage to the engine, especially when > it's happening at/near maximum power RPM range? For what it is worth most of the aftermarket rev limiters use a random spark drop out. This drops out the spark to random cylinders, but not to the same cylinder twice. Works very well without the sudden drop in power a fuel cutoff has. James Patterson james@uclink.berkeley.edu From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 03:27:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21376; Wed, 17 May 95 03:27:46 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21362; Tue, 16 May 95 23:27:44 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17456; Tue, 16 May 95 21:27:43 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14321; Tue, 16 May 95 21:27:40 MDT Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 21:27:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Northstar coolant loss To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI A fairly remarkable comment was made that the Northstar V8 (and I assume the derivative Oldsmobile Aurora V8) could run in a mode without coolant, pumping air and normally combusting alternately on two cylinder banks. I assume that this is some sort of failure mode that allows the owner to make his way to a service station. Is this correct? Could anyone from GM (Ed or Andrew) elaborate? This would seem to be a noteworthy development in engine science and speaks well of GM engineering (often unfairly criticized by import car owners). Getting off subject here a little bit, it is known that car transport ships often return to Japan empty. I have always wanted to have snotty-nosed Accord and Camry owners placed on these ships for the return voyage. The trade deficit would be quickly solved, and, more importantly, the US would relieve itself of its most noxious citizens. Please reply only to the first paragraph. Charles Mott From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 12:31:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21997; Wed, 17 May 95 12:31:04 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21983; Wed, 17 May 95 08:30:59 -0400 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA00678 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 08:30:56 -0400 Received: from koiasw15.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA13498 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 07:30:53 -0500 Received: by koiasw15.delcoelect.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08684; Wed, 17 May 95 07:30:52 EST From: Lawrence E. Piekarski Message-Id: <9505171230.AA08684@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 07:30:52 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jack Mott" at May 16, 95 09:27:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1694 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >A fairly remarkable comment was made that the Northstar V8 (and I assume >the derivative Oldsmobile Aurora V8) could run in a mode without coolant, >pumping air and normally combusting alternately on two cylinder banks. I >assume that this is some sort of failure mode that allows the owner to >make his way to a service station. Is this correct? Could anyone from GM >(Ed or Andrew) elaborate? > That is correct. When a loss of coolant is detected (as opposed to high coolant temperature/overheating) fuel is disabled in 1/2 of the cylinders at a time. This allows 1/2 of the cylinders to cool while the engine essentially runs as a V-4. According to a press release I read, a team of engineers (in Detroit) drained the coolant from either an Allante (team of 2?) or a Seville and drove to Toledo for lunch and returned. They drove expressway and maintained 55 mph. I wrote test software for PCM's, and of all of the different types I worked on, I was most impressed with the N*. There seems to have been a lot of up-front planning and a ground-up design approach that seems to have really paid off. There are a lot of really innovative ideas in that engine to improve both economy and power. But from a drivability standpoint, it is a quite, efficient engine with gobs-o-throw-you-back-in-those-nice-leather- seats-power. :-O (And that comes from someone with a 454 daily-driver :-) -- (* Larry Piekarski, Software Engineer 1997 Cadillac Instrument Panel *) (* c1ilep@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) (* The main thing about acting is honesty. If you can fake *) (* that, you've got it made - George Burns to Jack Lemmon. *) From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 12:45:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22040; Wed, 17 May 95 12:45:37 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22026; Wed, 17 May 95 08:45:34 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail716.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA08421; Wed, 17 May 95 08:45:05 EDT Date: Wed, 17 May 95 08:45:04 EDT Message-Id: <9505171245.AA08421@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >A fairly remarkable comment was made that the Northstar V8 (and I assume >the derivative Oldsmobile Aurora V8) could run in a mode without coolant, >pumping air and normally combusting alternately on two cylinder banks. I >assume that this is some sort of failure mode that allows the owner to >make his way to a service station. Is this correct? Could anyone from GM >(Ed or Andrew) elaborate? Cadillac advertises that it can be driven up to 200 miles after coolant loss to get to service. > >This would seem to be a noteworthy development in engine science and >speaks well of GM engineering (often unfairly criticized by import car >owners). Getting off subject here a little bit, it is known that car >transport ships often return to Japan empty. I have always wanted to have >snotty-nosed Accord and Camry owners placed on these ships for the return >voyage. The trade deficit would be quickly solved, and, more importantly, >the US would relieve itself of its most noxious citizens. Hear Hear!!!!!! Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 14:19:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22266; Wed, 17 May 95 14:19:47 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22252; Wed, 17 May 95 10:19:44 -0400 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA26256 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 10:19:42 -0400 Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id KAA22020 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:19:41 -0400 From: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA27852; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:19:39 -0400 Received: from localhost by pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA21748; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:19:39 -0400 Message-Id: <9505171419.AA21748@pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 May 95 07:30:52 CDT." <9505171230.AA08684@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 95 10:19:38 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Running an engine without coolant is a remarkable achievement, no doubt. Being in the same business, I can imagine the details involved in shutting down multiple cylinders. As a means of managing a failure mode, it's fabulous. Please don't interpret the following as a Ford guy diminishing the achievements of GM. I commend GM for taking the lead, but ... I can't help but wonder though why the auto industry is so often willing to spend money for after-the-fact fixes instead of up-front design. I don't want the coolant in my engine to leak out in the first place. Perhaps it's done this way for marketing reasons. The TV commercials are impressive. --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 15:18:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22582; Wed, 17 May 95 15:18:34 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22567; Wed, 17 May 95 11:18:30 -0400 Message-Id: <9505171518.AA22567@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: fwd:Re: Northstar coolant loss Date: Wed, 17 May 95 11:18:30 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Please send messages to diy_efi, not owner-diy_efi. Thanks. ------- Forwarded Message Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/lib/mh/slocal -user jsg id AA22235; Wed, 17 May 95 10:09:45 -0400 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA24533 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 10:09:42 -0400 Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id KAA21769 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:09:41 -0400 From: phillips@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA27735; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:09:40 -0400 Received: from localhost by pt9215.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA20817; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:09:39 -0400 Message-Id: <9505171409.AA20817@pt9215.ped.pto.ford.com> To: owner-diy_efi Cc: phillips@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Date: Wed, 17 May 95 10:09:39 -0400 X-Mts: smtp >>A fairly remarkable comment was made that the Northstar V8 (and I assume >>the derivative Oldsmobile Aurora V8) could run in a mode without coolant, >>pumping air and normally combusting alternately on two cylinder banks. I >>assume that this is some sort of failure mode that allows the owner to >>make his way to a service station. Is this correct? Could anyone from GM >>(Ed or Andrew) elaborate? >Cadillac advertises that it can be driven up to 200 miles after coolant loss >to get to service. I'm not 'anyone from GM', anymore, so they can correct me if I'm wrong, but what you say is true. Its essentially, an air-cooled - but 'crippled' - engine in this mode. I think it was advertised as a 50 mile thing, though. ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 16:06:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22734; Wed, 17 May 95 16:06:57 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22720; Wed, 17 May 95 12:06:51 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA12368; Wed, 17 May 95 12:06:20 EDT Message-Id: <9505171606.AA12368@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:07:11 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >Running an engine without coolant is a remarkable achievement, >no doubt. Being in the same business, I can imagine the >details involved in shutting down multiple cylinders. As a >means of managing a failure mode, it's fabulous. Please don't >interpret the following as a Ford guy diminishing the >achievements of GM. I commend GM for taking the lead, but ... > >I can't help but wonder though why the auto industry is so >often willing to spend money for after-the-fact fixes instead >of up-front design. I don't want the coolant in my engine to >leak out in the first place. I'm sure this addressed first.. If it wasn't and they wanted to make money from service, this "safety factor" wouldn't have been included. I am sure this is for the "I never change my oil/coolant/transfluid/rear axle fluid lazy ignorant worst case car owner". 99% of the owners will never have to take advantage of this feature... But, if 75,000 miles down the road, a radiator hose bursts 100 miles from civilization... I'd rather be in that cadillac than a ford that will burn up in a few miles ;-) Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 17:21:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22924; Wed, 17 May 95 17:21:45 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22910; Wed, 17 May 95 13:21:41 -0400 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA28576 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 13:21:40 -0400 Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id NAA27500 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:21:39 -0400 From: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA29393; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:21:37 -0400 Received: from localhost by pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA21872; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:21:36 -0400 Message-Id: <9505171721.AA21872@pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 May 95 12:07:11 EDT." <9505171606.AA12368@merlin.nando.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 95 13:21:36 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>Running an engine without coolant is a remarkable achievement, >>no doubt. Being in the same business, I can imagine the >>details involved in shutting down multiple cylinders. As a >>means of managing a failure mode, it's fabulous. Please don't >>interpret the following as a Ford guy diminishing the >>achievements of GM. I commend GM for taking the lead, but ... >> >>I can't help but wonder though why the auto industry is so >>often willing to spend money for after-the-fact fixes instead >>of up-front design. I don't want the coolant in my engine to >>leak out in the first place. >I'm sure this addressed first.. If it wasn't and they wanted to make money >from service, this "safety factor" wouldn't have been included. >I am sure this is for the "I never change my oil/coolant/transfluid/rear >axle fluid lazy ignorant worst case car owner". 99% of the owners will >never have to take advantage of this feature... But, if 75,000 miles down >the road, a radiator hose bursts 100 miles from civilization... I'd rather >be in that cadillac than a ford that will burn up in a few miles ;-) >Later, >Dave But I'd prefer it even more if radiator hoses which didn't burst at 75,000 miles were used. To bring this back to a DYI EFI discussion, it's possible to correct or protect for a wide variety of deficiencies with computers. Those of you building your own controllers realize you could keep building and adding features forever. Is it the most efficient way to solve a problem though? With software and computer hardware? If the manufacturer knows that customers don't follow maintenance schedules, the design requirements for their products should change. Perhaps that should include engine hardware in addition to computer hardware and software. The auto industry lags far behind other industries in applying a systems design approach. That needs to change, quickly, if externally imposed goals for emissions, fuel efficiency, and time-to-market are to be met. --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 18:23:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23253; Wed, 17 May 95 18:23:11 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23239; Wed, 17 May 95 14:23:07 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA07102; Wed, 17 May 95 14:22:35 EDT Message-Id: <9505171822.AA07102@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:23:27 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >But I'd prefer it even more if radiator hoses which didn't burst at 75,000 >miles were used. Me too! > >To bring this back to a DYI EFI discussion, it's possible to correct or >protect for a wide variety of deficiencies with computers. Those of you >building your own controllers realize you could keep building and adding >features forever. Is it the most efficient way to solve a problem though? >With software and computer hardware? If the manufacturer knows that >customers don't follow maintenance schedules, the design requirements for >their products should change. Perhaps that should include engine >hardware in addition to computer hardware and software. > >The auto industry lags far behind other industries in applying a systems >design approach. That needs to change, quickly, if externally imposed >goals for emissions, fuel efficiency, and time-to-market are to be met. > Can you imagine the processing power needed if every safeguard they could design into the vehicle management system was implemented? (this would include monitoring tire pressure, suspension, steering etc...) there wouldn't be any trunk space left! Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 18:37:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23370; Wed, 17 May 95 18:37:00 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23355; Wed, 17 May 95 14:36:57 -0400 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA19749 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 17 May 1995 14:35:36 -0400 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199505171835.AA19749@access4.digex.net> Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:35:36 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9505171721.AA21872@pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com> from "tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com" at May 17, 95 01:21:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1539 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >I'm sure this addressed first.. If it wasn't and they wanted to make money > >from service, this "safety factor" wouldn't have been included. > >I am sure this is for the "I never change my oil/coolant/transfluid/rear > >axle fluid lazy ignorant worst case car owner". 99% of the owners will > >never have to take advantage of this feature... But, if 75,000 miles down > >the road, a radiator hose bursts 100 miles from civilization... I'd rather > >be in that cadillac than a ford that will burn up in a few miles ;-) > >Later, > >Dave > > But I'd prefer it even more if radiator hoses which didn't burst at 75,000 > miles were used. When I was a kid, radiator and bypass hoses were always blowing, and you'd fix it with a roll of tape from the trunk and limp back to civilization. Water pumps on Ford and other products would go bad slowly, and the coolant would leak out over a period of weeks. Nowadays, it seems some things have gone the wrong way. Due to the increased underhood temperatures imposed by modern emissions control, hoses have gotten much better. But when the waterpump on my wife's Caravan went bad and dumped out all the coolant in 1/2 mile, I was not impressed. Although I'm personally devoted to DIY_EFI, I'm somewhat worried by the addition of high tech to cars. When your ultradrive transmission craps out and you limp home, you better not stop at the first hillbilly town and expect them to hook up to the on-board CAN bus and figure out what's wrong. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 19:30:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23642; Wed, 17 May 95 19:30:02 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23628; Wed, 17 May 95 15:29:58 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA20417 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 15:29:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 15:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950517153100.21057a34@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI David Cooley writes: >Can you imagine the processing power needed if every safeguard they could >design into the vehicle management system was implemented? (this would >include monitoring tire pressure, suspension, steering etc...) there >wouldn't be any trunk space left! >Later, >Dave You just described OBD-III !! Oh, you forgot the transmitter that CARB wants/suggested that call them and tell when your vehicle is not in compliance with government standards. (No, that was B*LLSH*T, it was suggested !) Jack From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 20:26:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23790; Wed, 17 May 95 20:26:31 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23776; Wed, 17 May 95 16:26:27 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA07195; Wed, 17 May 95 16:25:49 EDT Message-Id: <9505172025.AA07195@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:26:40 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >David Cooley writes: > >>Can you imagine the processing power needed if every safeguard they could >>design into the vehicle management system was implemented? (this would >>include monitoring tire pressure, suspension, steering etc...) there >>wouldn't be any trunk space left! >>Later, >>Dave > > >You just described OBD-III !! Oh, you forgot the transmitter that CARB >wants/suggested that call them and tell when your vehicle is not in compliance >with government standards. (No, that was B*LLSH*T, it was suggested !) > I think if we put a small pin thru the antenna coax, then force a trouble code so it transmits... Blow the final and down the road you go! Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Wed May 17 20:42:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23903; Wed, 17 May 95 20:42:31 GMT Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23889; Wed, 17 May 95 16:42:27 -0400 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 17 May 95 15:41:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 15:41:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Bradford K Palmer Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss To: DIY_EFI Cc: Brad Palmer In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I know you said not to comment on the second paragraph, but I could not resist. I agree with you about those snotty import owners. I had one tell me one time that his car was better than any American car because his odometer had an extra digit than mine. So by his reasoning my car would last for only one hundred thousand miles while his should last to one million. True story. Brad From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 02:51:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24962; Thu, 18 May 95 02:51:39 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24948; Wed, 17 May 95 22:51:33 -0400 Received: from nnsa.eds.com by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AB18199 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 17 May 1995 22:51:19 -0400 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA10462; Wed, 17 May 1995 19:09:17 -0400 Received: by nnsp.eds.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA03849; Wed, 17 May 1995 14:23:52 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA07810; Wed, 17 May 1995 14:20:24 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA033354286; Wed, 17 May 1995 14:11:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 May 95 11:28:51 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Northstar coolant loss To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jack Mott wrote: >A fairly remarkable comment was made that the Northstar V8 (and I assume >the derivative Oldsmobile Aurora V8) could run in a mode without coolant, >pumping air and normally combusting alternately on two cylinder banks. I >assume that this is some sort of failure mode that allows the owner to >make his way to a service station. Is this correct? Could anyone from GM >(Ed or Andrew) elaborate? That is absolutely correct. The algorithm was initially suggested by Bill Bolander (now here at the Powertrain Control Center) as a result of research he did his Senior year in college while he interned at GM. Bill Bolander, in case the name sounds familiar, is the recipient of the first MIT-Lemelson award for innovation that was recently publicized. The research focused on heat dissipation in aluminum block engines. The success of the algorithm is predicated on the block being aluminum, I believe. If the engine goes into "camel mode", the oil should be changed ASAP, but the internals remain unharmed. Algorithms are considered proprietary and strategic, so I'm not sure how much more detail I can give about it. If anyone has a real need to know more I can ask. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group (Northstar & Aurora) Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 08:55:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25514; Thu, 18 May 95 08:55:33 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA25500; Thu, 18 May 95 04:55:30 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQMUVYAL9C001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 18 May 1995 03:54:54 CDT Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 21:59:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <127245.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> Running an engine without coolant is a remarkable achievement, -> no doubt. Ho-hum. Tatra, Porsche, Volkswagen, NSU... -> I don't want the coolant in my engine to leak out in the first -> place. Can you say "big rock through the radiator?" From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 11:56:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25710; Thu, 18 May 95 11:56:20 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA25696; Thu, 18 May 95 07:56:16 -0400 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA08093 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 18 May 1995 07:55:32 -0400 Received: from koiasw15.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA10645 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Thu, 18 May 1995 06:55:30 -0500 Received: by koiasw15.delcoelect.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11445; Thu, 18 May 95 06:55:29 EST From: Lawrence E. Piekarski Message-Id: <9505181155.AA11445@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Subject: Processing Power (was Re: Northstar Coolant Loss) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 06:55:29 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9505171822.AA07102@merlin.nando.net> from "David Cooley" at May 17, 95 02:23:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3182 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>To bring this back to a DYI EFI discussion, it's possible to correct or >>protect for a wide variety of deficiencies with computers. Those of you >>building your own controllers realize you could keep building and adding >>features forever. Is it the most efficient way to solve a problem though? >>With software and computer hardware? If the manufacturer knows that >>customers don't follow maintenance schedules, the design requirements for >>their products should change. Perhaps that should include engine >>hardware in addition to computer hardware and software. >> >>The auto industry lags far behind other industries in applying a systems >>design approach. That needs to change, quickly, if externally imposed >>goals for emissions, fuel efficiency, and time-to-market are to be met. >> > > Can you imagine the processing power needed if every safeguard they could >design into the vehicle management system was implemented? (this would >include monitoring tire pressure, suspension, steering etc...) there >wouldn't be any trunk space left! Funny thing you should mention it. Just last week I answered a Product Change Evaluation for the 1998 Eldo/Seville. Just a simple request to add a tire pressure monitor! They (Cadillac) are evaluating whether to add it, but from my experience, if the technology is available, reliable, and sorta cheap, they will add every bell and whistle they can get their hands on. But, there will be only a minimal change to add the sensors. Since there are already in 25 or so different embedded systems in the vehicle, the processing will simply be divided over the existing systems, with minor impact to each. Look at it this way. It is a major job to design, from scratch, a Fuel Injection system. But, once that is done and working, adding electronic spark control would be fairly easy because you already have a library of core algorithms (A/D reads, drivers, 32-bit multiplies) and some of the required data (RPM, Engine Load, Throttle Position) so all you need to do is write the calculation routines and add a few sensor inputs and output drivers. In the case of the tire pressure monitor, my device, the cluster, is the display device for the entire car. Any system any where that wants to display something, sends us a message and we display it. We have a 20 character display and show things like Range, RPM, Average Speed, a Stop Watch, etc. The display drivers are written and work. All we have to do is add the actual text of the messages and write a routine to convert the absolute tire pressure to gage pressure, which is pretty simple since the PCM already calculates Barometric pressure. There is another module that reads the pressure sensors and ships us the data, but again, it does that now, it is just four more inputs to add. The only "cost" is the four pressure sensors. (Software is free, right ;-) -- (* Larry Piekarski, Software Engineer 1997 Cadillac Instrument Panel *) (* c1ilep@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) (* The main thing about acting is honesty. If you can fake *) (* that, you've got it made - George Burns to Jack Lemmon. *) From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 14:07:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25957; Thu, 18 May 95 14:07:08 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA25943; Thu, 18 May 95 10:07:04 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA25057 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 18 May 1995 10:07:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:08:07 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950518100807.21058e93@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >David Cooley writes: > >>>Can you imagine the processing power needed if every safeguard they could >>>design into the vehicle management system was implemented? (this would >>>include monitoring tire pressure, suspension, steering etc...) there >>>wouldn't be any trunk space left! >>>Later, >>>Dave >> >> >>You just described OBD-III !! Oh, you forgot the transmitter that CARB >>wants/suggested that call them and tell when your vehicle is not in compliance >>with government standards. (No, that was B*LLSH*T, it was suggested !) >> > >I think if we put a small pin thru the antenna coax, then force a trouble >code so it transmits... Blow the final and down the road you go! >Later, >Dave Sorry, "Big Brother" is watching closer than that ! You won't be able to get new tabs until your transmitter (with your VIN of course) log an "all clear" for the state. Your Legislators at work ! Jack From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 15:47:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26784; Thu, 18 May 95 15:47:54 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA26770; Thu, 18 May 95 11:47:51 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA12659 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 18 May 1995 11:47:49 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:48:55 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@etcv01.eld.ford.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950518114855.21058e93@etcv01.eld.ford.com> Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Larry Piekarski writes: "... it is just four more inputs to add. The only "cost" is the four pressure sensors. (Software is free, right ;-) " Ah ..., spoken like a true Software Engineer (they don't appreciate us on this side of town either !) Unfortunately, one of the problems that System Engineer has is where do we get more pins on a module for Inputs/Outputs ! And of course the manufacturing engineers don't want to increase the number of wires in the harness and multiplexing is still not cost effective in many situations. Jack From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 17:42:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27086; Thu, 18 May 95 17:42:45 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA27072; Thu, 18 May 95 13:42:41 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA182866214; Thu, 18 May 1995 10:10:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:10:14 -0400 From: SnoMo1@aol.com Message-Id: <950518100700_123269240@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >The motor also has twin distributors! Imagine that in this day of >direct ignition. Must be their secret to high CAMIP and J.D. Power >ratings. Of course, they all run and hide when I meet them at the >light... Ed, Just interested, with your position, what do you drive? Just jealous, SnoMo1 From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 19:05:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27458; Thu, 18 May 95 19:05:15 GMT Received: from jsun.agen.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA27444; Thu, 18 May 95 15:05:12 -0400 Received: by jsun.agen.okstate.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29507; Thu, 18 May 95 14:06:32 CDT Date: Thu, 18 May 95 14:06:32 CDT From: gcouger@agen.okstate.edu (Gordon Couger) Message-Id: <9505181906.AA29507@jsun.agen.okstate.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Unfortunately, one of the problems that System Engineer has is where do we get >more pins on a module for Inputs/Outputs ! And of course the manufacturing >engineers don't want to increase the number of wires in the harness and >multiplexing is still not cost effective in many situations. At this level of complexity GM will be using the CAN network to talk among it various CPUs and devices. Each sensor would have a CAN interface and just be anouther device on a two wire network. Or they might be tied on a CPU that is involved with the breaking or suspension. Gordon From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 20:41:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28200; Thu, 18 May 95 20:41:43 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA28186; Thu, 18 May 95 16:41:39 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail712.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA15055; Thu, 18 May 95 16:41:02 EDT Date: Thu, 18 May 95 16:41:01 EDT Message-Id: <9505182041.AA15055@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>I think if we put a small pin thru the antenna coax, then force a trouble >>code so it transmits... Blow the final and down the road you go! >>Later, >>Dave > > >Sorry, "Big Brother" is watching closer than that ! You won't be able to get >new tabs until your transmitter (with your VIN of course) log an "all clear" >for the state. > >Your Legislators at work ! The funny thing about it is it violates your constitutional right to privacy... And if you own the vehicle.. Maybe the cars will be cheaper then, as the government owns the computer... Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 21:09:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28534; Thu, 18 May 95 21:09:23 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA28520; Thu, 18 May 95 17:09:16 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail712.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA22893; Thu, 18 May 95 17:08:42 EDT Date: Thu, 18 May 95 17:08:41 EDT Message-Id: <9505182108.AA22893@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >At this level of complexity GM will be using the CAN network to talk >among it various CPUs and devices. Each sensor would have a CAN >interface and just be anouther device on a two wire network. Or they >might be tied on a CPU that is involved with the breaking or suspension. > >Gordon > Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Thu May 18 21:48:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28680; Thu, 18 May 95 21:48:05 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA28666; Thu, 18 May 95 17:48:01 -0400 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA29581 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 18 May 1995 17:46:24 -0400 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199505182146.AA29581@access4.digex.net> Subject: Re: Processing Power (J-1850) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 17:46:24 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9505182108.AA22893@merlin.nando.net> from "David Cooley" at May 18, 95 05:08:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 106 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Are the specs for J-1850 available somewhere on the net? .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 00:41:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29443; Fri, 19 May 95 00:41:02 GMT Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA29429; Thu, 18 May 95 20:40:58 -0400 Received: from oak.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA18105; Thu, 18 May 1995 20:44:13 -0400 Received: by oak.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA20177; Thu, 18 May 1995 20:44:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Valentine To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Processing Power In-Reply-To: <9505182108.AA22893@merlin.nando.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all > cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. So, since this is a EPA (read: goverenment sponsered) protocol, does that mean that we'll be able to get the specs on it? --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@liii.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 00:46:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29512; Fri, 19 May 95 00:46:50 GMT Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA29498; Thu, 18 May 95 20:46:47 -0400 Received: from oak.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA18641; Thu, 18 May 1995 20:50:02 -0400 Received: by oak.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA20271; Thu, 18 May 1995 20:50:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:50:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Valentine To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Northstar coolant loss In-Reply-To: <127245.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > -> Running an engine without coolant is a remarkable achievement, > -> no doubt. > Ho-hum. Tatra, Porsche, Volkswagen, NSU... Yes, but those engines were DESIGNED to run without coolant, right? (Assuming you're talking air-cooled engines) > Can you say "big rock through the radiator?" Yep, I imagine that was the thought. What does it do if, say, the one serpentine-run-everything belt breaks and you just overheat? I thought this one up today when my power steering pump blew the shaft seal; there are 2 belts that run over the water pump, so I just cut the P/S belt and kept on going (lost the AIR pump and P/S pump, no big deal) --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@liii.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 01:03:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29689; Fri, 19 May 95 01:03:51 GMT Received: from oeonline.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA29675; Thu, 18 May 95 21:03:36 -0400 Received: by oeonline.oeonline.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0sCGPz-000GfZC; Thu, 18 May 95 20:59 EDT Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:59:41 -400 (EDT) From: Mike Wesley - SLIP Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <950515094659_119119201@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 15 May 1995 Lfaustini@aol.com wrote: > On the idea of rev-limiting... (I didn=92t want to re-quote the previous = sets > of messages).. >=20 > The idea of dropping fuel injectors during a very-high-stress conditi= on > in the engine (I.E. at 5k and up RPMs) scares me.. Forgive my ignorance, = but > doesn=92t the fuel in the air-fuel mixture help cool and lubricate the to= p-half > of the piston and rings? Remember, internal horsepower losses due to fric= tion > loss grow at approximately the SQUARE of the RPM's, so at high speeds the > lubrication of the piston is extremely important. I don't claim to be an= expe > rt on the dynamics of lubrication (or anything else for that matter), but= I > do know that if you tried that trick on a 2-stroker you would be running = to > the machine shop with tears in your eyes and a feeling of loss in your po= cket. I'd imagine you'd really be in serious trouble with the 2 stroke since=20 the fuel carries the lubricant (most of the time).What I was talking=20 about with cutting out fuel and spark doesn't hurt anything (Ford and=20 others do it). A few years ago I built a spark only rev limiter that=20 would cut the spark at whatever RPM you selected (you could ramp it in).=20 Problem was when the spark was gone, the fuel was still being injected=20 and pushed through the exhaust port. RPM comes down to a safe level,=20 spark starts to come back on and you lite a big firebomb. I blew the=20 complete exhaust system off the car a few times. An exhuast system (or=20 engine for that matter) full of unburned A/F mixture makes one hell of a=20 bang! Mike.... From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 01:39:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29946; Fri, 19 May 95 01:39:21 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA29932; Thu, 18 May 95 21:39:17 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail901.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA14060; Thu, 18 May 95 21:38:47 EDT Date: Thu, 18 May 95 21:38:46 EDT Message-Id: <9505190138.AA14060@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Processing Power (J-1850) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Are the specs for J-1850 available somewhere on the net? > >.../Bill Not that I have seen yet... They can be ordered from the SAE.. Order handbook HS-3000 it is very complete down to the suggested scan tool interface circuits. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 01:52:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00058; Fri, 19 May 95 01:52:04 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00044; Thu, 18 May 95 21:52:00 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail901.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA16358; Thu, 18 May 95 21:51:31 EDT Date: Thu, 18 May 95 21:51:30 EDT Message-Id: <9505190151.AA16358@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >> Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all >> cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. > > So, since this is a EPA (read: goverenment sponsered) protocol, does >that mean that we'll be able to get the specs on it? > > --> Bob Valentine <-- > --> ravalent@liii.com <-- > "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" Yep.. Straight from the SAE.. Handbook HS-3000 gives it all to ya! Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 01:55:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00106; Fri, 19 May 95 01:55:57 GMT Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA00081; Thu, 18 May 95 21:55:53 -0400 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id UAA24532 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 18 May 1995 20:55:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:55:52 -0500 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199505190155.UAA24532@eagle.natinst.com> To: diy_efi Subject: efi control algorithm Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI An excerpt from a previous post I believe by pecampbe@mtu.edu: >2. "The" model recommended for electronic fuel injection seems to be the >mean value engine model. I have two questions related to it: > >a. How do you measure the parameters required for the model? The "perfect" >solution of course would be some simple user-entry parameters (number of >cylinders, displacement size, overbore size, CFI/SEFI/EFI injection type), >and then let the engine computer determine the rest online. > >b. How would you convert it from a model to a control algorithm? I understand >that there are 3 inputs and 2 states..but the next step is to derive some >physical parameters that you wish to optimize based on the model. It does >not appear that anyone has ground out the mathematics yet except Mike >Klopfer (Jan 7, 1995) who seems to have made a pretty good stab with a similar >algorithm. > The control equations are in the Jan post. There are two parts to it, the first part is the equation: on(k)= (injSt(k)-t0) phiDes - (f_b(k)/f_a(k)) {efp(k)-[(1-f_a(k))/f_b(k)](injSt(k)-t0) phiDes} = [(injSt(k)-t0) phiDes/f_a(k)]-[(f_b(k)efp(k))/f_a(k)] The second part involves determining efp(k) using the Kalman equations. The following is some theorizing about how one might calibrate the parameters needed. The most important parameter seems to me to be the map of the steady state injector on time injSt. This is a table of the injector pulse width at various throttle angles and rpms that is needed provide a stoichiometric ratio of fuel to air. From the paper it appeared that the map they used was the injector time as a function of throttle angle and rpm. From the post to this list it sounds like most people use a map of the injector time as a function of manifold pressure (or in some cases MAF) and rpm. Such a map could be determined easily for the no load condition by fixing the throttle plate and adjusting the injector pulse width until the o2 sensor is outputting the desired value. Of course it might be difficult to do this for other values of load without a dynamo. An alternative to trying to find each entry of the injSt table empirically is to use some model for the mass of air entering the cylinder as a function of throttle angle and rpm, provided that this model has a small enough number of unknown constants. The following is my understanding of models given in the paper SAE 93085? "Transient A/F Ratio Errors in Conventional SI Engine Control". This is largely derived from the ideal gas law n= PV/(rT). Where V is the volume of the cylinder, P is the pressure in the cylinder, n is the number of moles of air?, T is the air temperature and r is some constant. Hopefully the pressure and temperature measurements in the intake manifold give us a reasonably good estimate of P and T in the cylinder until the intake valve closes. The number of moles of gasoline injected can perhaps be approximated by m = k * (injSt - t0) where k and t0 are unknown constants and injSt is the pulse width of the injector signal. So if l is the desired air fuel ratio (m/n) then l = k * (injSt - t0)/n solving for injSt injSt= ((l * n )/k) + t0 Using the ideal gas law to estimate n gives injSt= ((l * P * V)/(k * r * T)) + t0 Since P and T are the only nonconstant variables on the RHS of this equation the steady state injector pulse width can be estimated by finding the two unknowns k1 and k2 in the following equation injSt= (k1 * P / T) + k2 In the paper SAE 93085? cited above the authors include a volumetric efficiency term in this equation. This term is of the form ve(rpm, P)= c1 + c2 * rpm + c3 * rpm * rpm + c4 * P This leads to the following formula injSt= (k1 * P * ve(rpm, P) / T) + k2 eqn 1 This article also suggests that the air pressure sensor is slow. So perhaps an injector width versus throttle angle and rpm map might respond to transients faster than an injector width versus manifold pressure and rpm map. This article also has some equations relating mass flow into the manifold to throttle angle and ambient pressure. By using these one should be able to derive injSt as a function of throttle angle, manifold temperature and ambient pressure. There equation is of the form: M'= C1 * b1(a) * b2(P, P_0) + C2 eqn 2 Where b1 is the area of the throttle opening at angle a and b2 is some nonlinear function of P and P_0 the ambient air pressure. M' is the time derivative of the mass of air flowing into the manifold. Using equation 1 to determine the mass flow into the cylinder, and the fact that at steady state the flow into the cylinder equals the flow into the manifold one should be able to obtain the constants C1 and C2 by measuring the manifold pressure for a couple of values of throttle angle. Then the equation 2 can be used to determine injSt as a function of throttle angle and rpm. I don't have much idea of how accurate these models are but provided they are sufficiently accurate getting the table for injSt should be fairly simple. All that is needed is enough measurements of manifold pressure (P), rpm, manifold temperature (T), ambient pressure (P_0) and throttle angle (a) at enough steady state operating points to determine the unknowns c1,... , c4, k1, k2, C1 and C2. I would be very interested to hear other folks ideas for determining this type of map. It would be particularly valuable if we could automate the process ot finding values for such parameters as was suggested. From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 13:26:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01669; Fri, 19 May 95 13:26:43 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA01655; Fri, 19 May 95 09:26:39 -0400 Received: from pm1_21.magicnet.net (pm1_21.magicnet.net [204.96.116.71]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04064 for ; Fri, 19 May 1995 09:26:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199505191326.JAA04064@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 08:02:43 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >> Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all >> cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. > Forgive my ignorance, whats CAN and J-1850 protocol for? Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 14:24:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02191; Fri, 19 May 95 14:24:14 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA02170; Fri, 19 May 95 10:24:03 -0400 Received: from diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (diana [134.169.34.15]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA09754 for ; Fri, 19 May 1995 16:23:50 +0200 Received: (from knick@localhost) by diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) id QAA06273 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 19 May 1995 16:23:48 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505191423.QAA06273@diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Processing Power To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 19 May 95 16:23:47 MET DST In-Reply-To: <199505191326.JAA04064@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at May 19, 95 08:02:43 am Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > > > > >> Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all > >> cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. > > > Forgive my ignorance, whats CAN and J-1850 protocol for? > Peter Wales > Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" Peter, CAN is the Controller Area Network. It was developped by Bosch for use in automobiles but is nowadays (at least here in Germany) often used as an easy to use local bus system. I do not know all the facts/data about CAN, just a few: two-wire, multimaster, simple to deal with. For more information, there is a WWW-Page about the CAN: http://www.docs.uu.se/~ken/CAN.html I tried it a few month ago, so I cannot say if its still available. Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 14:33:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02222; Fri, 19 May 95 14:33:51 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA02208; Fri, 19 May 95 10:33:48 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0sCT7Z-0009quC; Fri, 19 May 95 09:33 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0sCT7Y-000uH4C; Fri, 19 May 95 09:33 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Fri, 19 May 95 09:33:40 CDT Date: Fri, 19 May 95 09:24:11 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: Re: Processing Power To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI From Bob Valentine , on 5/18/95 7:47 PM: To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > So, since this is a EPA (read: goverenment sponsered) protocol, does >that mean that we'll be able to get the specs on it? > > --> Bob Valentine <-- > --> ravalent@liii.com <-- > "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" Sort of. The electrical specifications will be public, which means you can reconstruct the bytes off the wire. The EPA specifies a common data packet for emissions related information, so you'll be able to figure out what some of the packets on the wire mean. But the really neat stuff, like downloading new operating parameters, and other stuff, can (and probably will be) proprietary. Non-emissions related info (from the instrument cluster, ABS computer, body computer, etc.) is not specified by the EPA and will probably be proprietary. I got this info from an engineer at GM a few days ago, he had no opinion on how much info GM was likely to give out. --steve From owner-diy_efi Fri May 19 15:46:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02523; Fri, 19 May 95 15:46:08 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA02509; Fri, 19 May 95 11:45:59 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA03429; Fri, 19 May 95 11:45:28 EDT Message-Id: <9505191545.AA03429@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 11:46:46 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: Processing Power Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >> >>> Well, They won't be using CAN... they'll be using J-1850. EPA requires all >>> cars manufactured in the US after 1996 to use the J-1850 protocol. >> >Forgive my ignorance, whats CAN and J-1850 protocol for? >Peter Wales >Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" CAN is Bosch's 2 wire High speed noise immune network and communication protocol for on-board computers in vehicles.. J-1850 is the US EPA standard for 1 or 2 wire Highspeed noise immune network for vehicles manufactured in the USA. (OBD_II). Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Sat May 20 19:17:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05993; Sat, 20 May 95 19:17:37 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA05979; Sat, 20 May 95 15:17:33 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail720.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA19246; Sat, 20 May 95 15:17:02 EDT Message-Id: <9505201917.AA19246@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 15:00:16 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: cruise control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI For those of you contemplating building your on cruise control, Give harris semiconductor a call.. The CA3228 is a complete system (less servo and switches) for an automotive cruise control. Requires a bare minimum of external components. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi Sun May 21 10:25:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06858; Sun, 21 May 95 10:25:28 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA06844; Sun, 21 May 95 06:25:23 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.131] (osse02.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA04269 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 May 1995 12:25:19 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 12:28:24 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Thank for great list and some ideas. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Thank you all for a really great list. You have given me a lot of great advises during the past weeks Iv'e been a subscriber as; Data Logging acclelerometers. Where Lou Fastini and Jeff Benagh told us about the $10-20 Analog Devices ADXL05 accelerometer. I will use them in semi automatic suspension for seats in rail road trains. Those are a lot cheaper than our own. Adress list; David Nelsson list about micro computers pages. Gave me a lot of tools to Motorola 68322 computers that I'm using for robot control. Processing Power; Jens Knickmeyer advise about the CAN-www-page. this are a great help for me in the previous mentioned projects. AFR to EGT. Thanks everone for your comments, your knowledge can't be found in books. a.s.o. I would like to send some ideas that maybee could be of any help for you. 1- to Lauwrence E. Piekarski about tire pressure monitoring; we where investigating the tire vibrations vs. tirepressure back in -79-80 and found that there was a steep slope in it's PSD at 100Hz. This slope decreased in frequency with the tyrepressure and was not dependabe on the tyre dimenssion or type. On trucks the slope occured at 60 Hz and behaved the same way. The con was that the vibration was exited by unevenes in the tarmac and lasted for a few seconds. The project was closed beacuse one criteria was to monitor every 5 seconds. We intended to use the same technique to monitor suspension and ABS, but as the primary criteria wasn't fulfilled we didn't go further with this. 2- a discussion with Jim Buchanan at Delco, who introdused me to this list, about a DFI- device I tested at the same time. The idea was to have a small cup with wather and lead a high energy spark trough it. The spark would go trough the wather and the spark would waporice it under high pressure. This would probably work for petrol and diesel too, as at least petrol are hygroscopic. My idea was to fill a cup with an ordinary low pressure pump while the injector are closed. Open the injector by a coil 50 degr before tdc. The sparks timing and modulation to give the right mixture. 50 degr after tdc the injector are closed again and refilled. The trick to modulare sparks seems to be solved today. So I have to make the the mechanical layout again. Thanks to you Jim. 3- About butterfly throttles. I tryed to a diffrent type of "area restrictor" some times ago. It was an ordinary tube that on the inside had a rubbertube. And as I filled the area between the outer solid tube and the inner rubber tube with oil. The opening for the cross_flow_air decreased. The shape of the innertube was formed by the air pressure/flow. In the centre of the inner tube there was a small tube feeding the fuel. The fuel feed tube has to be appr 1/2 the diameter of the outer tube to make it possible to effectivly close the air for idle speed. The pro are you will have a nice flowpattern and the fuel will always be feeded in the middle of the air flow. The con are that a butterfly will make a turbulent airflow and help the air/fuel mixture. But if you are using a modern CI the fuel will be spread trough the air. As these ideas have been laying on my desk for 15 y or more it's better that someone can use them or tell me why they can be of any use, than me sitting on them. --- Best Greatings --- *********************************************** * Sven-Erik Tiberg * * Div. of Energy Enginnering * * Dep. of Mechanical Enginnering * * Lulea Univ. of Technology SWEDEN * * email set@mt.luth.se * * phone +46 920 91218 * * fax +46 920 91047 * * http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/ene/staff/set/ * *********************************************** From owner-diy_efi Sun May 21 11:38:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06945; Sun, 21 May 95 11:38:00 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA06931; Sun, 21 May 95 07:37:56 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQR7FXRFK0001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 21 May 1995 06:37:47 CDT Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 21:05:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Processing Power (was Re: Northstar Coolant Loss) To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <128159.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> Funny thing you should mention it. Just last week I answered a -> Product Change Evaluation for the 1998 Eldo/Seville. Just a simple -> request to add a tire pressure monitor! They (Cadillac) are -> evaluating whether to add it, but from my experience, if the -> technology is available, reliable, and sorta cheap, they will add -> every bell and whistle they can get their hands on. You could simply cast an eye over to the Chevrolet Division, which has had a tire pressure monitor on the Corvette since 1990. The system was designed by Imperial Clevite in 1972 and was obtained by Epic, who OEMs it to Chevrolet. It works OK, except for some brain-damaged reason Chevrolet chose to use a single "Low Tire" light even though the system has a separate channel for each wheel. All of the major tire companies have spent time developing tire pressure monitoring systems as part of their run-flat tire programs. There's lots of technology out there, solidly ignored by Detroit for so long it is old and gray. ==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us=========================DoD# 978======= From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon May 22 21:24:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA05837; Mon, 22 May 1995 21:10:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from localhost by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA05832; Mon, 22 May 1995 17:10:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199505222110.RAA05832@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> cc: diy_efi Subject: Sorry of the interrupted service... Date: Mon, 22 May 95 17:10:49 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Coulomb had an OS update, and I'm still sorting out the problems.... Service may be erratic for a day or two... John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 23 14:51:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA29969; Tue, 23 May 1995 14:42:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29964; Tue, 23 May 1995 10:42:42 -0400 Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 23 May 1995 15:41:42 +0100 Received: from humus.hull.ac.uk (actually host humus-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by adelphi.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 23 May 1995 15:40:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 15:40:48 +0100 (BST) From: "n.mulvana" X-Sender: eesnm@humus To: DIY_EFI Subject: computer project Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi to everyone on this list. I'm new to most things to do with the INTERNET so please bear with me! I have read with interest the articles posted to this list which prompted me to post some details of a project I have almost completed for my car ( a 1991 FORD). I decided I would like to design a fuel computer which looked and worked as much as possible like the computers fitted to the higher specification versions of my car. At first I thought I would have a problem obtaining and fitting the speed and fuel flow sensors which were very expensive as off-the-shelf items, but on examining the schematic diagrams for the car I discovered a speed pulse train which is fed into the EECIV management computer and a fuel pulse output intended for diagnostics and fuel information for the higher spec cars. The fuel level was the hardest information to sort out because of level fluctuations with acceleration/deceleration and gradients, I have almost sorted this out now by doing some sophisticated averaging in software! I have fed four inputs from the door ajar switches and created a nice little car graphic on the LCD display to show if doors are open I have also incorporated an external temperature probe and a connection to show battery volts. All info is read by using just two buttons as well as being able to reset fuel used and average MPG I have used the user-defined character capability on a 20x4 LCD display to produce characters 3 (5x7) chars high by 3 (5x7) chars wide so the display is very easy to read! I used a 80537 microcontroller and wrote all the code in C. I hope my ramblings make interesting reading to SOMEBODY, if anyone would like any more details please feel free to email me. n.mulvana@e-eng.hull.ac.uk Cheers Nigel. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 23 17:38:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA01301; Tue, 23 May 1995 17:29:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01296; Tue, 23 May 1995 13:29:12 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA23121; Tue, 23 May 1995 12:29:11 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9505231729.AA23121@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Anti-lock braking systems... To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 12:29:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1402 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I am currently developing an ABS system for my masters thesis and I'd like to know if any of you all know of any discussion groups/UP-TO-DATE books for anti-lock braking systems? Also, if any of you have any thoughts/suggestions on the following topic, I'd appreciate it. PWM How does one determine the optimum freq. for pwm. Common sense (as opposed to theory) tells me that I would want the period of the pwm less than the time constant (T.C.) of the mechanical devive. In the non-famous words of one of my profs., how much is how much? Is an order of magnitude sufficient/too much/too little. Or should I go with 5 * T.C. Or am way off on this kind of thinking? I am planning on using an hc11 and using the output compares, but if my period is so low, I fear that I'll run out of CPU time. Motorola makes an hc11k4 that has PWM built in that pretty much takes care of itself, however, as many (maybe all of you know) getting these special uP's from motorola isn't always a walk in the park. Asking other individuals the same question has produced some varied answers from they agree to thinking to "I just picked a freq. and went with that" to "I chose 20 kHz since that way I can't hear the high pitched noise". Any suggestions/recommendations on the above? Thanks, -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 23 20:06:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA01664; Tue, 23 May 1995 20:05:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cdr.stanford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01659; Tue, 23 May 1995 16:04:59 -0400 Received: from [36.50.0.62] (ME-DDiv-KFPS1-dynamic-62.Stanford.EDU [36.50.0.62]) by cdr.stanford.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA01010 for ; Tue, 23 May 1995 13:04:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 13:05:45 -0800 To: diy_efi From: carryer@cdr.stanford.edu (Ed Carryer) Subject: Re: Anti-lock braking systems... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >PWM >How does one determine the optimum freq. for pwm. Common sense (as >opposed to theory) tells me that I would want the period of the pwm less >than the time constant (T.C.) of the mechanical devive. David, I can't claim to be an expert, but here's how I would approach the problem: When using PWM to achieve intermediate levels of an output, you are using the time constant of the driven device to smooth (filter) the PWM input into something that resembles a constant level at an intermediate value. So why not approach it as a filter design problem ? Ask yourself 'how much ripple due to the PWM drive signal can I tolerate in my output ?' Given that, you can calculate the attenuation that the filter (your mechanical system) will need to provide. If you know the time constant of the system, you can figure out what the minimum drive frequency should be to have no more than X amount of ripple. For the upper frequency limit, you need to know something about the effective 'inductance' of the device being driven. Here you are trying to determine how long a signal must be applied to the input before the output responds. For example: If your friend who chose 20kHz as a drive frequency was driving a highly inductive load, they would probably not be very happy with the result. Implicit in the assumption of a linear relationship between Duty Cycle (DC) and output is that the time for the output to respond is very short relative to the peroid of the drive signal. When this is not true (as it would not be if the period of the PWM was similar to the rise time of the current in an inductor), you do not get what you expect. i.e. 100% ouput is not the maximum that the device is capable of. To demonstrate this to my students, I hook up a signal generator to a motor driver and drive a small DC motor. I set the duty cycle of the generator's output to 50% and leave it there. Then I sweep the frequency from very low ~1Hz up to 20kHz. What happens is this; 1) at very low F, the motor pulses, moving very quickly, many revs,in jerks 2) at moderate F, the motor smooths out somewhat 3) at a little higher F, the motor smooths out pretty much completely (at the last two steps the motor speed was essentially constant) 4) at still higher F, the motor begins to slow down. This is due to the inability to build full current in the motor windings and therefore the average current falls, even though the duty cycle remains constant. Operating anywhere between stages 3 & 4 will get you what you want. I hope this helps ed -- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 23 22:20:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA01913; Tue, 23 May 1995 22:15:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01908; Tue, 23 May 1995 18:15:12 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA13235; Tue, 23 May 1995 17:15:10 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9505232215.AA13235@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Thanks to Ed Carryer for the PWM lesson To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 17:15:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 380 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Carryer: Your explanation and example were wonderful, thank you. I had thought of doing a little bit of system modeling on the mechanical device but in your explanation it sounds as if I could measure the output to select the desired pwm frequency and be done with it. -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 23 22:20:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA01923; Tue, 23 May 1995 22:17:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01918; Tue, 23 May 1995 18:17:13 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA13421; Tue, 23 May 1995 17:17:12 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9505232217.AA13421@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Re: Anti-lock braking systems... To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 17:17:11 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Carryer" at May 23, 95 01:05:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 246 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Carryer: I received your answer and it made wonderfully simple sense. Do you mind if I include you in my references section of my thesis? -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 24 00:14:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA02172; Wed, 24 May 1995 00:11:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cdr.stanford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02167; Tue, 23 May 1995 20:11:11 -0400 Received: from [36.50.0.62] (ME-DDiv-KFPS1-dynamic-62.Stanford.EDU [36.50.0.62]) by cdr.stanford.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA04521 for ; Tue, 23 May 1995 17:11:08 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 17:11:57 -0800 To: diy_efi From: carryer@cdr.stanford.edu (Ed Carryer) Subject: Re: Anti-lock braking systems... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu David, I would be flattered ;) ed -- At 5:17 PM 5/23/95, Nelson David E wrote: >Ed Carryer: > I received your answer and it made wonderfully simple sense. Do >you mind if I include you in my references section of my thesis? > >-- > >David /\/elson >D-Nelson@taiu.edu > > ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 24 00:50:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA02532; Wed, 24 May 1995 00:46:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA02527; Tue, 23 May 1995 20:46:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 20:46:51 -0400 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199505240046.UAA02527@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI .8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01965; Tue, 23 May 1995 18:22:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) with UUCP i d KAA06426; Wed, 24 May 1995 10:12:08 +1200 Received: from warren-pc.hypercom.co.nz (warren-pc.hypercom.co.nz [202.27.198.3 9]) by hctgate.hypercom.co.nz (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA02461 for ; Wed, 24 May 1995 10:11:10 +1200 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 10:11:10 +1200 Message-Id: <199505232211.KAA02461@hctgate.hypercom.co.nz> X-Sender: warren@hctgate X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: warren@hypercom.co.nz (Warren Crowther) Subject: 323 turbo fuel injection Someone gave me this email address, and said that you might be able to help me. I have an '86 Mazda 323 4WD DOHC Turbo, and I want to hot up the fuel injection system. Please could you tell me what you offer in the way of computer/chip upgrades and what is involved etc. Thanks, Warren Crowther Hypercom Communication Technologies Ltd Auckland, New Zealand warren@hypercom.co.nz From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 00:15:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA26303; Thu, 25 May 1995 00:07:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA26298; Wed, 24 May 1995 20:07:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 20:07:48 -0400 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199505250007.UAA26298@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from info.forthnet.gr by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816. SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA25170; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:39:07 -0400 Received: from athena.compulink.forthnet.gr by info.forthnet.gr via FORTHnet wi th SMTP; id AA22308 (5.65c/FORTHNET-1.1); Wed, 24 May 1995 20:36:27 +0300 (EET D ST) Organization: From: Grigoris Dimitriadis X-Mailer: SCO System V Mail (version 3.2) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Help on disassembler Date: Wed, 24 May 95 20:35:21 EET Message-Id: <9505242035.aa02683@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr> Hi! I would like to know,were can i find a cross disassembler (for PC) for the motorola MC68HCP11E1VFN and text files explaing his architecture. Thanks greg@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 14:27:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA16095; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:20:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA16090; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:20:32 -0400 Received: from pm1_07.magicnet.net (pm1_07.magicnet.net [204.96.116.57]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08366; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:20:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199505251420.KAA08366@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 08:55:42 -0400 To: warren@hypercom.co.nz From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Cc: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Warren, Your mail reached me, via a circuitous route! For the 323 Mazda, you can do most of the work yourself, if you know how. There is no boost limit in the computer, only an overboost switch in the wastegate feed line. disconnect that and you can run 13 PSI maximum. If you want to alter anything else, I know how to do the rev limits and I think I can remember how to do the fuelling but I will need the box number on your car to be able to tell you exactly what is where. Please mail me directly to avoid cluttering up the group. Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 14:28:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA16104; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:22:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA16099; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:22:36 -0400 Received: from pm1_06.magicnet.net (pm1_06.magicnet.net [204.96.116.56]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08424 for ; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:22:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199505251422.KAA08424@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 08:57:50 -0400 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: 323 computer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Warren, Your mail reached me, via a circuitous route! For the 323 Mazda, you can do most of the work yourself, if you know how. There is no boost limit in the computer, only an overboost switch in the wastegate feed line. disconnect that and you can run 13 PSI maximum. If you want to alter anything else, I know how to do the rev limits and I think I can remember how to do the fuelling but I will need the box number on your car to be able to tell you exactly what is where. Please mail me directly to avoid cluttering up the group. Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 15:31:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA16459; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:22:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA16454; Thu, 25 May 1995 11:21:59 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01812; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:21:56 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9505251521.AA01812@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Re: 68hc11Ex series To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 10:21:56 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199505250007.UAA26298@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "John S Gwynne" at May 24, 95 08:07:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 543 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu The motorola docs you need are the hc11 ref. manual (#M68hc11rm/ad) and the hc11 E series tech. manual (#mc68hc11e/d). As far as a disassembler I don't have any answers for you on that one. At one time, John S Gwynne said: > > Hi! > I would like to know,were can i find > a cross disassembler (for PC) for the motorola MC68HCP11E1VFN > and text files explaing his architecture. > > Thanks > > greg@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr > -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 15:55:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA16522; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:48:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA16517; Thu, 25 May 1995 11:48:55 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQX1DDJ99C001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 25 May 1995 10:48:40 CDT Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 22:32:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Tire sensors (was: Proc Pwr and Northstar Coolant Loss) To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <129071.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> Pardon my ignorance, but, how do these sensors relay the information -> back to the main unit? Wireless/RF transmission? Slip Rings (I -> doubt it)? Low power RF. If you drive past another Corvette with a flat tire, your own warning will go off. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 18:43:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA17997; Thu, 25 May 1995 18:42:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA17992; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:42:03 -0400 Received: (from ciciora@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12/CNS-3.6) id MAA10535; Thu, 25 May 1995 12:42:01 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:42:01 -0600 (MDT) From: CICIORA STEVEN JOSEP To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Tire sensors (was: Proc Pwr and Northstar Coolant Loss) In-Reply-To: <129071.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 24 May 1995, Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Pardon my ignorance, but, how do these sensors relay the information > -> back to the main unit? Wireless/RF transmission? Slip Rings (I > -> doubt it)? > > Low power RF. If you drive past another Corvette with a flat tire, > your own warning will go off. > > Sorry, but I had to ask... how does the (rotating) transmitter get it's power? One slip ring and the chassy for ground? Or some sort of generator (like the old self-winding watches)? -Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 19:07:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA18339; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:01:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay4.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA18334; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:01:27 -0400 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyrhc04938; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:01:25 -0400 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA27679; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:02:50 -0500 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma027666; Thu May 25 14:02:27 1995 Received: from optilink.dsccc.com (optilink.optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA27124 for ; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:02:18 -0500 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.dsccc.com with smtp id m0sEi9N-0002MeC; Thu, 25 May 95 12:00 PDT Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0sEi9X-000Nz6C; Thu, 25 May 95 12:01 PDT From: "Frank_Marrone" Message-Id: <9505251201.ZM337@montreal> Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:01:03 -0700 In-Reply-To: carryer@cdr.stanford.edu (Ed Carryer) "Re: Anti-lock braking systems..." (May 23, 1:05pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Where does the power come from? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Like dave said, the tire sensor is powered by RF energy. I knew a guy who claimed to have been part of the development team for an early version of this. He said that the driving force for having such a device was to obtain lower rates from insurers of "18 wheeler" type shippers. The 18 wheeler drives through a checking station (presumably at their operations base) which radiates a RF field, the "in the tire" sensors use the energy to power their transmitters to supply the tire pressure info. In this way all 18 wheels could be checked in very little time each time the truck readied to leave the depot. -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 19:14:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA18369; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:09:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA18364; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:09:01 -0400 Received: (from wrl@localhost) by access4.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA17945 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:08:59 -0400 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199505251908.PAA17945@access4.digex.net> Subject: Re: Tire sensors (was: Proc Pwr and Northstar Coolant Loss) To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:08:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "CICIORA STEVEN JOSEP" at May 25, 95 12:42:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 166 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I had heard that the Corvette tire pressure transmitters got their power via some sort of piezoelectric contraption. .../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 20:19:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA18701; Thu, 25 May 1995 20:10:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA18689; Thu, 25 May 1995 16:10:17 -0400 From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0sEjEV-0009r4C; Thu, 25 May 95 15:10 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0sEjEU-000uH3C; Thu, 25 May 95 15:10 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Thu, 25 May 95 15:10:13 CDT Date: Thu, 25 May 95 15:09:47 CDT Subject: EGR questions... To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I was thinking about this last night... What would be the effect of lots of EGR under part throttle conditions? I was thinking that might be a way to improve mileage say under highway driving conditions. My reasoning is this: Adding exhaust gas to the intake would dilute the A/F mixture, without changing the actual A/F ratio, since exhaust doesn't contain oxygen or fuel. Thus reducing the amount of fuel sent to the engine, without the problems associated with a lean mixture. comments anyone? --steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 21:59:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA19158; Thu, 25 May 1995 21:53:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from jsun.agen.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA19153; Thu, 25 May 1995 17:52:58 -0400 Received: by jsun.agen.okstate.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20853; Thu, 25 May 95 16:54:27 CDT Date: Thu, 25 May 95 16:54:27 CDT From: gcouger@agen.okstate.edu (Gordon Couger) Message-Id: <9505252154.AA20853@jsun.agen.okstate.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Tire sensors (was: Proc Pwr and Northstar Coolant Loss) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 24 May 1995, Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Pardon my ignorance, but, how do these sensors relay the information > -> back to the main unit? Wireless/RF transmission? Slip Rings (I > -> doubt it)? > > Low power RF. If you drive past another Corvette with a flat tire, > your own warning will go off. > > : Sorry, but I had to ask... how does the (rotating) transmitter get :it's power? One slip ring and the chassy for ground? Or some sort of :generator (like the old self-winding watches)? :-Steven Ciciora I can see several ways to power it. Recified RF charging a real good and real large capacitor. Or build a very poor generator in the wheel with the magnets part of the nonrotating brake housing. It might be possible to pickup enough electrical noise to charge a Capacator and run the transmiter when the air pressure falls or when querried. Resulting in a awful lot of charge time and a very small transmit time. The saying is a lot eaiser than the doing. Gordon Gordon Couger - 624 Cheyenne, Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu 405-624-2855 evenings I do not speak for my employer From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 22:41:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA20103; Thu, 25 May 1995 22:34:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA20098; Thu, 25 May 1995 18:34:30 -0400 Received: (from ciciora@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12/CNS-3.6) id QAA01945; Thu, 25 May 1995 16:34:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:34:27 -0600 (MDT) From: CICIORA STEVEN JOSEP To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGR questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 25 May 1995 Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com wrote: > conditions. My reasoning is this: Adding exhaust gas to the intake would > dilute the A/F mixture, without changing the actual A/F ratio, since exhaust > doesn't contain oxygen or fuel. Ah!!! Finally I understand how egr works! Sorry I can't answer your question, but thanks for explaining how egr works! -Steven ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu May 25 23:30:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA20946; Thu, 25 May 1995 23:24:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA20941; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:24:20 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0sEmFI-000CxQC; Thu, 25 May 95 18:23 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: EGR questions... To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 18:23:16 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com" at May 25, 95 03:09:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1258 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com writes: > > I was thinking about this last night... > > What would be the effect of lots of EGR under part throttle conditions? I was > thinking that might be a way to improve mileage say under highway driving > conditions. My reasoning is this: Adding exhaust gas to the intake would > dilute the A/F mixture, without changing the actual A/F ratio, since exhaust > doesn't contain oxygen or fuel. Thus reducing the amount of fuel sent to the > engine, without the problems associated with a lean mixture. comments anyone? EGR displaces air, less air = lower volumetric efficiency = less power. SO you open the throttle up to achieve the power output that you had before introducing EGR and guess what, your airflow and consequently fuel flow are higher than they were before introducing EGR. EGR ain't good for nothing cept reducing NOx emissions :). Excess air (lean burn) on the other hand does have fuel economy benefits. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri May 26 02:16:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA00771; Fri, 26 May 1995 02:05:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from thales.math.uwm.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00766; Thu, 25 May 1995 22:05:49 -0400 From: jzurlo@thales.math.uwm.edu Received: by thales.math.uwm.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04136; Thu, 25 May 1995 20:58:38 -0500 Message-Id: <9505260158.AA04136@thales.math.uwm.edu> Subject: Re: EGR questions... To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 20:58:37 -0600 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com" at May 25, 95 03:09:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 886 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > What would be the effect of lots of EGR under part throttle conditions? I was > thinking that might be a way to improve mileage say under highway driving > conditions. My reasoning is this: Adding exhaust gas to the intake would > dilute the A/F mixture, without changing the actual A/F ratio, since exhaust > doesn't contain oxygen or fuel. Thus reducing the amount of fuel sent to the > engine, without the problems associated with a lean mixture. comments anyone? Actually small amounts of EGR (~5-10%) improves mileage at part load. What happens, as someone else pointed out, is that power output decreases, so that you open the throttle more. Opening the throttle reduces pumping losses and improves mileage. Large amounts of EGR ~20% decreases mileage because flame speed is reduced enough to offset the reduced pumping losses. Jim jzurlo@thales.math.uwm.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat May 27 05:06:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA02078; Sat, 27 May 1995 05:03:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rcvax.gmr.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA02073; Sat, 27 May 1995 01:03:10 -0400 Received: from nnsa.eds.com by gmr.com (PMDF V4.2-15 #3699) id <01HQZ9LRL5KG8ZG3F0@gmr.com>; Sat, 27 May 1995 01:06:05 EST Received: by nnsa.eds.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02176; Fri, 26 May 1995 13:04:19 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA25745; Fri, 26 May 1995 13:00:52 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA147406987; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:49:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 12:58:12 -0500 (EST) From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: EGR questions... To: diy_efi Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu An additional effect of EGR is to lower the octane requirement (i.e. raise the effective octane rating of the fuel/air mixture). This is due to the presence of NOx in the exhaust gas. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat May 27 05:11:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA02103; Sat, 27 May 1995 05:10:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA02098; Sat, 27 May 1995 01:10:06 -0400 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 27 May 95 00:09:43 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 00:09:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Bradford K Palmer Subject: Re: EGR questions... To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Believe it or not EGR can be good for something. A small amount of EGR can actually increase effiency. The EGR adds a bit of thermal mass and helps to reduce peak cylinder temperatures(Thats why it works on NOX), but this reduction in peak temps. reduces heat transfer to the cylinder walls and increases thermal effiency. On Thu, 25 May 1995, Jonathan R. Lusky wrote: > Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com writes: > > > > I was thinking about this last night... > > > > What would be the effect of lots of EGR under part throttle conditions? I was > > thinking that might be a way to improve mileage say under highway driving > > conditions. My reasoning is this: Adding exhaust gas to the intake would > > dilute the A/F mixture, without changing the actual A/F ratio, since exhaust > > doesn't contain oxygen or fuel. Thus reducing the amount of fuel sent to the > > engine, without the problems associated with a lean mixture. comments anyone? > > EGR displaces air, less air = lower volumetric efficiency = less power. > SO you open the throttle up to achieve the power output that you had > before introducing EGR and guess what, your airflow and consequently > fuel flow are higher than they were before introducing EGR. EGR ain't > good for nothing cept reducing NOx emissions :). Excess air (lean burn) > on the other hand does have fuel economy benefits. > > > -- > Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu > http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 > ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ > 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun May 28 18:01:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA11678; Sun, 28 May 1995 17:57:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA11673; Sun, 28 May 1995 13:57:27 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HR1CQU5E7K001AAE@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 28 May 1995 12:57:16 CDT Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 10:47:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Tire sensors (was: Proc Pwr and Northstar Coolant Loss) To: diy_efi Message-id: <129946.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> Sorry, but I had to ask... how does the (rotating) transmitter get -> it's power? One slip ring and the chassy for ground? Or some sort -> of generator (like the old self-winding watches)? Piezo, best as I remember. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon May 29 19:57:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA01299; Mon, 29 May 1995 19:54:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01294; Mon, 29 May 1995 15:54:33 -0400 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA07346 for ; Mon, 29 May 1995 15:54:28 -0400 Received: from metlab3.my.mtu.edu (metlab3.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.83]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id PAA20524 for ; Mon, 29 May 1995 15:54:30 -0400 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab3.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id PAA03817 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 29 May 1995 15:54:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199505291954.PAA03817@metlab3.my.mtu.edu> Subject: PWM (was Re: Anti-lock braking systems...) To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 15:54:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9505231729.AA23121@taisun1.taiu.edu> from "Nelson David E" at May 23, 95 12:29:10 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1877 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > PWM > How does one determine the optimum freq. for pwm. Common sense (as > opposed to theory) tells me that I would want the period of the pwm less > than the time constant (T.C.) of the mechanical devive. In the non-famous > words of one of my profs., how much is how much? Is an order of magnitude > sufficient/too much/too little. Or should I go with 5 * T.C. Or am way > off on this kind of thinking? I am planning on using an hc11 and using > the output compares, but if my period is so low, I fear that I'll run out > of CPU time. Motorola makes an hc11k4 that has PWM built in that pretty > much takes care of itself, however, as many (maybe all of you know) > getting these special uP's from motorola isn't always a walk in the > park. Asking other individuals the same question has produced some > varied answers from they agree to thinking to "I just picked a freq. and > went with that" to "I chose 20 kHz since that way I can't hear the > high pitched noise". Any suggestions/recommendations on the above? Easy..remember, your pulses are probably square waves or similar in nature. Those nasty "edges" will be producing "spikes" at harmonics of the fundamental (minimum period) frequency. Nyquist sampling theory says that to perfectly emulate anything you want, you need to be running at least twice your maximum desired frequency. In practice, at least 3-4 times that is desirable. It greatly depends on how good your filtering is. There are also some really nice "magic PWM patterns" if you can do ternary patterns and higher rates (see the last 3-4 months of Radio-Electronics in Don Lancaster's articles). It mostly depends on what you need pulse width modulation for. Theory says that twice your maximum frequency is an absolute minimum boundary, but anything higher than this is better as long as it is still easy to work with. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon May 29 21:17:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA01410; Mon, 29 May 1995 21:15:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01405; Mon, 29 May 1995 17:15:46 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail816.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA02191; Mon, 29 May 95 17:15:13 EDT Message-Id: <9505292115.AA02191@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 17:15:47 -0500 To: diy_efi From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: 6801 disassembler wanted Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Anybody got any dos based 6801 disassembler programs? I have the C source for 1, but have no C compiler... Thanks, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley AKA N5XMT Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 01:45:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA01706; Tue, 30 May 1995 01:43:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA01701; Mon, 29 May 1995 21:43:43 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by yarrina.connect.com.au with UUCP id LAA21249 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 30 May 1995 11:01:18 +1000 Received: from charon.adacel.com.au by server.adacel.com.au with SMTP id AA03590 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 30 May 1995 10:26:35 +1000 Received: From ADACEL1/WORKQUEUE by charon.adacel.com.au via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950530102357.384; 30 May 95 10:24:50 +1000 Message-Id: To: diy_efi From: "David Smith" Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 10:23:48 GMT+1000 Subject: Re: 6801 disassembler wanted Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Anybody got any dos based 6801 disassembler programs? > I have the C source for 1, but have no C compiler... > Thanks, > Dave > I have one that I wrote to examine some EFI code written for a Hitachi 6303. I believe these are a superset of the 6801. If you are interested, I'll need to write a short user manual. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 13:36:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA02646; Tue, 30 May 1995 13:34:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02641; Tue, 30 May 1995 09:34:04 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail917.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA14980; Tue, 30 May 95 09:33:32 EDT Message-Id: <9505301333.AA14980@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:27:08 -0500 To: diy_efi From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: 6801 disassembler wanted Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> >> Anybody got any dos based 6801 disassembler programs? >> I have the C source for 1, but have no C compiler... >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >I have one that I wrote to examine some EFI code written for a Hitachi >6303. I believe these are a superset of the 6801. If you are >interested, I'll need to write a short user manual. > > I found someone who is willing to compile the code for me from my source... If it doesn't work out, I'll let you know. Thanks, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley AKA N5XMT Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 14:42:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA02909; Tue, 30 May 1995 14:38:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA02904; Tue, 30 May 1995 10:38:36 -0400 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08173; Tue, 30 May 95 07:36:43 PDT Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HR3U6QV7B40035JF@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 30 May 1995 07:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB09588; Tue, 30 May 95 10:39:38 EDT Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950530103736.672; 30 May 95 10:37:50 +0500 Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 10:35:57 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Since this seems to be the time for EGR-related correspondence, has anyone come up with an effective method for eliminating the stumble that seems to be normal for GM engines with TBI and port-controlled (not PWM controlled) EGR?? I have had three such engines, a 2 L and 2.5 L four and the 2.8 L v6 and they all exhibit the same faltering just as the throttle place goes off-idle. It seems as if the engine just can't cope smoothly with the rapid dilution of charge that occurs as the throttle plate uncovers the EGR port in the TBI. Disconnecting the EGR solves the problem but is obviously NOT a viable solution. Any experience, suggestions?? Thanks, John From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 15:10:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA03346; Tue, 30 May 1995 15:09:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03341; Tue, 30 May 1995 11:08:58 -0400 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09873; Tue, 30 May 95 08:07:04 PDT Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HR3V8UE7B4002YWW@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 30 May 1995 08:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09624; Tue, 30 May 95 11:10:27 EDT Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950530110630.320; 30 May 95 11:08:40 +0500 Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 11:05:53 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: PWM (was Re: Anti-lock braking systems...) To: diy_efi Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a little late, but (I hope) better than never. > PWM > How does one determine the optimum freq. for pwm. Common sense (as > opposed to theory) tells me that I would want the period of the pwm less > than the time constant (T.C.) of the mechanical devive. In the non-famous > words of one of my profs., how much is how much? Is an order of magnitude > sufficient/too much/too little. Or should I go with 5 * T.C. Or am way > off on this kind of thinking? I am planning on using an hc11 and using > the output compares, but if my period is so low, I fear that I'll run out > of CPU time. Motorola makes an hc11k4 that has PWM built in that pretty > much takes care of itself, however, as many (maybe all of you know) > getting these special uP's from motorola isn't always a walk in the > > park. Asking other individuals the same question has produced some > > varied answers from they agree to thinking to "I just picked a freq. and > > went with that" to "I chose 20 kHz since that way I can't hear the > > high pitched noise". Any suggestions/recommendations on the above? According to Fourier, any periodic function, such as the PWM pulse train can be expressed as a series of sinusoids whose frequencies are multiples of the fundamental. In the simple case of a 50% duty cycle square wave only the odd multiples are present, and the amplitudes of these fall off with the reciprocal frequency. So, if you have a one-volt, 50% duty cycle square wave at 1 kHz, its average value (the component WANT has a frequency of 0 HZ (DC) and an amplitude of (obviously) 1/2 volt. The fundamental (at 1 kHz) has an amplitude of (2/pi), the third harmonic (3 hKz) has an amplitude of (2/3*pi), and so on. Everything other than the average value is undesired. Non-50% duty cycle periodic square waves contain the even harmonica as well as the odds, but the same ( 1/frequency) fall-off of amplitude. Fortunately, most mechanical systems such as solenoid-operated valves can be modelled as two-pole low-pass filters, so usually only the lower frequency spectral components become problems since the filtering of 40 db/decade ( a factor of 100) which the mechanical system provides adequately attenuates the higher frequency components. If you can empirically determine the resonant frequency of the actuator, valve, or whatever your load is, you can then choose a PWM rate such that the the undesired spectral components fall at frequencies where the Fourier coefficients in concert with the filtering due to the mechanical system provide adequate attenuation. Good luck, John From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 15:23:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA03436; Tue, 30 May 1995 15:20:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gw2.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03426; Tue, 30 May 1995 11:20:14 -0400 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA19212; Tue, 30 May 95 11:18:48 EDT Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA16827; Tue, 30 May 95 10:17:44 CDT Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA09685; Tue, 30 May 1995 10:17:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 10:17:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9505301517.AA09685@usgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've driven GM cars before (with and without computer-controlled EGR) and never experienced this problem. A hesitation like this suggests other problems such as: 1). incorrect TPS setting/erratic TPS operation at this point 2). slightly clogged injectors 3). incorrect ECT information being given to the computer 4). incorrect fuel pressure I'm quite surprised that you're seeing these performance problems in so many different engine. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 21:42:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA05398; Tue, 30 May 1995 21:39:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from jsun.agen.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA05393; Tue, 30 May 1995 17:39:17 -0400 Received: by jsun.agen.okstate.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10869; Tue, 30 May 95 16:40:51 CDT Date: Tue, 30 May 95 16:40:51 CDT From: gcouger@agen.okstate.edu (Gordon Couger) Message-Id: <9505302140.AA10869@jsun.agen.okstate.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu :Since this seems to be the time for EGR-related correspondence, has :anyone come up with an effective method for eliminating the stumble :that seems to be normal for GM engines with TBI and port-controlled :(not PWM controlled) EGR?? I have had three such engines, a 2 L and :2.5 L four and the 2.8 L v6 and they all exhibit the same faltering :just as the throttle place goes off-idle. It seems as if the engine :just can't cope smoothly with the rapid dilution of charge that occurs as the :throttle plate uncovers the EGR port in the TBI. :Disconnecting the EGR solves the problem but is obviously NOT a viable solution. While rather inelagant how about installing valves that momentarily disconnects tha ERG valve. Making the mixture a little richer as it comes off idle might help. The problem sounds just like a worn out accelerator pump in a convential carberator. Gordon From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue May 30 22:14:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA05536; Tue, 30 May 1995 22:12:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA05531; Tue, 30 May 1995 18:12:37 -0400 From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0sGZWe-0009qsC; Tue, 30 May 95 17:12 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0sGZWd-000uMvC; Tue, 30 May 95 17:12 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Tue, 30 May 95 17:12:34 CDT Date: Tue, 30 May 95 17:12:30 CDT Subject: re: Re: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu bohdan@uscbu.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) Wrote: | | |I've driven GM cars before (with and without computer-controlled EGR) and |never experienced this problem. A hesitation like this suggests other problems | such as: | | 1). incorrect TPS setting/erratic TPS operation at this point | 2). slightly clogged injectors | 3). incorrect ECT information being given to the computer | 4). incorrect fuel pressure | | I'm quite surprised that you're seeing these performance problems in so many | different engine. I've seen this exact problem in two '86 4x4 S-10 blazers (3.8 v6?) and an '88 corsica (also 3.8 v6?). I never thought it was related, but now I wonder. This probably belongs on rec.auto.tech, but since someone else brought it up, I thought I'd offer my piece. Anyway, the symptom is hesitation just off idle. Give it a little more throttle and it is cured, but it persists as long as the the throttle is held barely open. It is a feature on the corsica (had the problem since new), may be a bug or feature on the blazers, since they were used by the time I drove them. --steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 04:02:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA08548; Wed, 31 May 1995 04:00:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08543; Wed, 31 May 1995 00:00:27 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0sGew4-000CuWC; Tue, 30 May 95 22:59 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Re: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 22:59:12 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com" at May 30, 95 05:12:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1074 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com writes: > I've seen this exact problem in two '86 4x4 S-10 blazers (3.8 v6?) and an '88 > corsica (also 3.8 v6?). I never thought it was related, but now I wonder. > This probably belongs on rec.auto.tech, but since someone else brought it up, > I thought I'd offer my piece. Anyway, the symptom is hesitation just off > idle. Give it a little more throttle and it is cured, but it persists as long > as the the throttle is held barely open. It is a feature on the corsica > (had the problem since new), may be a bug or feature on the blazers, since > they were used by the time I drove them. Hmmm, 86 & 88 GM 2.8 V6? Don't those have the infamous GM MAF disease? If so, you need to the update PROM that converts the EFI over to speed density. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 05:15:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA08754; Wed, 31 May 1995 05:11:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA08749; Wed, 31 May 1995 01:11:37 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HR4NX8KMUOC6UCHN@ARIEL.GI.COM>; Tue, 30 May 1995 21:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FCBF5F8@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Tue, 30 May 95 21:52:08 PDT Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 21:50:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: OEM EFI computers To: "diy_efi (postings)" Cc: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Message-id: <2FCBF5F8@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 11 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone taken an old OEM EFI computer and modified for his own use? I'm thinking about all of the EFI computers that must be out there on cars that are junked. For example, I believe that Chrysler's use the 68HC11. There must be thousands of these out on the road by now, with some available from junk yards for relatively low $$$. Assuming that the firmware is stored in external ROM, it would be relatively easy to re-program. BZ Bryan Zublin General Instrument, San Diego, CA, USA bzublin@po2.gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 05:31:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA08787; Wed, 31 May 1995 05:31:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA08782; Wed, 31 May 1995 01:31:23 -0400 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id PAA14428 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 31 May 1995 15:30:54 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199505310530.PAA14428@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Mass flow sensor qn.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 15:30:51 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1035 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, In a local electonics magazine called 'Electronics Australia', there is a collumn on automotive electronics. In the most recent issue he had a cro trace of an 'Air mass meter' output with the engine accelerating from idle to high speed in 0.9sec. As you might expect, the output voltage increaed with time, HOWEVER, there was significant 'pulsation' (about 20-30 % of the full scale reading) in the output. Obviously at low RPM you would expect this to occur, but it was ALSO occuring at higher RPM. He posed the question to readers as to why this might happen (he didn't know). Could it be that the sensor is sensitive enough to detect the intake stroke of each cylinder? Or maybe some resonance effect? (He didn't say what sort of sensor it was - I wouldn't have though a trapdoor or hot wire sensor would respond so quickly. Could an ultrasonic (Karmann) sensor work this quickly?) Craig. PS is anyone familiar with the 'PIC' range of microcontrollers/'basic stamps'? None of them seem to have and a/d inputs or outputs. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 07:30:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA08949; Wed, 31 May 1995 07:29:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA08944; Wed, 31 May 1995 03:29:07 -0400 Received: from mechman.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA22858; Wed, 31 May 1995 17:28:56 +1000 Received: from MECHMAN/MERCMAIL by mechman.mm.swin.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 31 May 95 17:29:04 +1000 Received: from MERCMAIL by MECHMAN (Mercury 1.21); 31 May 95 17:28:34 +1000 From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:28:28 EST+10 Subject: A/D for PIC. was Re: Mass flow sensor qn.. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.20-pr2) Message-Id: <1B18D33610E@mechman.mm.swin.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu PS is anyone familiar with the 'PIC' range of microcontrollers/'basic stamps'? None of them seem to have and a/d inputs or outputs. The easiest thing to do is hook a SPI based A/D onto the stamp. Around $7 for an 8 channel 10 bit A/D (CDP68HC68A2E). Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Address: CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Swinburne University Phone: +61 3 9214 8296 PO Box 218 Fax: +61 3 9819 4949 Hawthorn Victoria 3122 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/ Australia From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 08:25:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA09031; Wed, 31 May 1995 08:23:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA09021; Wed, 31 May 1995 04:23:09 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA29115; Wed, 31 May 95 10:23:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 May 95 10:23:03 +0200 Message-Id: <9505310823.AA29115@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: angs@gemini.ldc.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Has anyone taken an old OEM EFI computer and modified for his own use? I'm >thinking about all of the EFI computers that must be out there on cars that >are junked. For example, I believe that Chrysler's use the 68HC11. There >must be thousands of these out on the road by now, with some available from >junk yards for relatively low $$$. Assuming that the firmware is stored in >external ROM, it would be relatively easy to re-program. BZ > >Bryan Zublin >General Instrument, San Diego, CA, USA >bzublin@po2.gi.com > I 've actually seen their asm-code on this HC11. It was a 68hc11a1 which means that they have 256 Ram and 512 EEprom which can be used. What they actually also have is 8K of ROM, but you can't access it if you not reprogram the 'CONFIG' register. Motorola sells those chips as A1 instead of A8, but they were meant to be sold to the company that ordered (some thousands of) them. You could actually see some notices with Chrysler, so we supposed it must be for their EFI -systems. I've even heard that BOSCH's RDS radio-code could also be found on some 68HC11A1 and a0:s Georg From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 13:27:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA09723; Wed, 31 May 1995 13:26:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09705; Wed, 31 May 1995 09:26:06 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail813.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA23746; Wed, 31 May 95 09:25:33 EDT Message-Id: <9505311325.AA23746@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 09:15:06 -0500 To: diy_efi From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Has anyone taken an old OEM EFI computer and modified for his own use? I'm >thinking about all of the EFI computers that must be out there on cars that >are junked. For example, I believe that Chrysler's use the 68HC11. There >must be thousands of these out on the road by now, with some available from >junk yards for relatively low $$$. Assuming that the firmware is stored in >external ROM, it would be relatively easy to re-program. BZ > >Bryan Zublin >General Instrument, San Diego, CA, USA >bzublin@po2.gi.com > > Bryan, There are also masked roms in the OEM ECM's (at least GM.. Don't know about others) That also control what it can and cannot do. The replaceable Eprom of a GM (Chryslers are sealed and potted) contains the program (firmware) and look-up tables that control the individual functions... Also, just by changing 2 chips in a GM.. The Calpack and the Eprom, it can be used on a variety of engines. If interested, I have a 32k file of the Eprom of a 1987 buick GN (turbo 3.8l V6) disassembled I can send you to examine... They use the 6801. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley AKA N5XMT Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@nando.net EXT. 2718 cooley@opsusa.sms.siemens.com =================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 15:57:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA11499; Wed, 31 May 1995 15:53:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11493; Wed, 31 May 1995 11:53:46 -0400 From: Lfaustini@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA281555625; Wed, 31 May 1995 11:53:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 11:53:45 -0400 Message-Id: <950531115106_82436821@aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-05-31 10:18:52 EDT, you write: > There are also masked roms in the OEM ECM's (at least GM.. Don't know about > others) That also control what it can and cannot do. The replaceable Eprom > of a GM (Chryslers are sealed and potted) contains the program (firmware) > and look-up tables that control the individual functions... Also, just by > changing 2 chips in a GM.. The Calpack and the Eprom, it can be used on a > variety of engines. If interested, I have a 32k file of the Eprom of a 1987 > buick GN (turbo 3.8l V6) disassembled I can send you to examine... They use > the 6801. > Later, > Dave I looked at the GM computer system very extensively. (1992 5.7 TBI moel) That computer uses a 68hc11FN. Nice chip. All of the code resides on the 27256 in the calpack. Thats a 64k byte rom, and the cpu only has a 64k byte adress space, so I am assuming that ALL of the code is on the calpack. Oh, yeah, that version of the '11 has programable chip selects too. Anyway, I doubt that GM bothered with programing the on chip mask ROM when they had that big EPROM to use. I am wondering if the GNX really used the 6801, or if it was really a 6811. Anyone know this for sure? I would guess that they used the '11 on the GNX, because its the first production car that GM ever implimented SEFI on. The coding of a 6801 would be very dificult as compared with the code required for the '11. The timer section of the '11 almost lends itself to SEFI. Oh, yeah, Can I get a copy of the GNX code? Is it disasembled? Is it comented (yeah, right!) ? ---Lou From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 18:13:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA11945; Wed, 31 May 1995 18:07:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA11940; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:07:01 -0400 Received: from dcooley.sms.siemens.com ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA18350; Wed, 31 May 95 14:06:28 EDT Message-Id: <9505311806.AA18350@merlin.nando.net> X-Sender: cooldave@mailhost.nando.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:08:49 -0400 To: diy_efi From: cooldave@nando.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I looked at the GM computer system very extensively. (1992 5.7 TBI moel) >That computer uses a 68hc11FN. Nice chip. All of the code resides on the >27256 in the calpack. Thats a 64k byte rom, and the cpu only has a 64k byte >adress space, so I am assuming that ALL of the code is on the calpack. Oh, >yeah, that version of the '11 has programable chip selects too. Anyway, I >doubt that GM bothered with programing the on chip mask ROM when they had >that big EPROM to use. I am wondering if the GNX really used the 6801, or if >it was really a 6811. Anyone know this for sure? I would guess that they used >the '11 on the GNX, because its the first production car that GM ever >implimented SEFI on. The coding of a 6801 would be very dificult as compared >with the code required for the '11. The timer section of the '11 almost lends >itself to SEFI. Oh, yeah, Can I get a copy of the GNX code? Is it >disasembled? Is it comented (yeah, right!) ? > > ---Lou > > Lou, The GN from 84 thru 87 and the GNX all used the same ECM, all 6801 based, and all SEFI. The chip of the GNX was the same code, but tables for top speed fuel cut and boost were modified. I'll send you a copy of the disassembled prom, and the binary of the chip (stock 87GN). The disassembly shows all the program code, but only the address range for the tables... The binary will give you the table structure. Thanks, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley AKA N5XMT (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@nando.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 21:39:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA00837; Wed, 31 May 1995 21:38:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00832; Wed, 31 May 1995 17:38:07 -0400 From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0sGvDY-0009qYC; Wed, 31 May 95 16:22 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0sGvDW-000uGaC; Wed, 31 May 95 16:22 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Wed, 31 May 95 16:22:20 CDT Date: Wed, 31 May 95 16:22:15 CDT Subject: re: Re: Re: Off-idle stumble resulting from ported EGR To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Wrote: | | | Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@bangate.compaq.com writes: | > I've seen this exact problem in two '86 4x4 S-10 blazers (3.8 | v6?) and an '88 | > corsica (also 3.8 v6?). I never thought it was related, but | now I wonder. | > This probably belongs on rec.auto.tech, but since someone else | brought it up, | > I thought I'd offer my piece. Anyway, the symptom is | hesitation just off | > idle. Give it a little more throttle and it is cured, but it | persists as long | > as the the throttle is held barely open. It is a feature on | the corsica | > (had the problem since new), may be a bug or feature on the | blazers, since | > they were used by the time I drove them. | | Hmmm, 86 & 88 GM 2.8 V6? Don't those have the infamous GM MAF disease? | If so, you need to the update PROM that converts the EFI over to speed | density. | | -- | Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu | http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 Jon -- come again? There is an update PROM that converts from MAF to SD? I don't know if any of these vehicles are MAF or not, although I can check on the blazer tonight. I'd appreciate more details on this "infamous MAF disease". --steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed May 31 23:45:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA03771; Wed, 31 May 1995 23:43:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA03762; Wed, 31 May 1995 19:43:32 -0400 From: FIScot@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA284313810; Wed, 31 May 1995 19:43:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:43:31 -0400 Message-Id: <950531194329_82690930@aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I looked at the GM computer system very extensively. (1992 5.7 TBI moel) That computer uses a 68hc11FN. Nice chip. All of the code resides on the 27256 in the calpack. Thats a 64k byte rom, and the cpu only has a 64k byte adress space, so I am assuming that ALL of the code is on the calpack. Oh, yeah, that version of the '11 has programable chip selects too. Anyway, I doubt that GM bothered with programing the on chip mask ROM when they had that big EPROM to use. I am wondering if the GNX really used the 6801, or if it was really a 6811. Anyone know this for sure? I would guess that they used the '11 on the GNX, because its the first production car that GM ever implimented SEFI on. The coding of a 6801 would be very dificult as compared with the code required for the '11. The timer section of the '11 almost lends itself to SEFI. Oh, yeah, Can I get a copy of the GNX code? Is it disasembled? Is it comented (yeah, right!) ? ---Lou ========================================================== Using AOL's editor....... The GM C3's used the masked ROM's, and the newer (P4?) use the 32Kx8 PROM (27C256) that contains all the code, at least the 1227730 ECM's that I have been playing with. I too have been working the 91 5.7L code, and have just about all the PROM locs defined, and all the regs. (I still don't know what the '3FE0' reg is, if anyone knows.) The C3 usually had code in the 'E000-FFFF' area of memory, and I've seen rhe PROM reside in '3000-3FFF' , and 'D000-DFFF', with about half the PROM dedicated to code, and the other half to the cal tables. In moving from the C3 to the 1227730, it is interesting to note that the 87 Cavalier 4 cylinder that uses the 1227730, uses code that very closely resembles the C3 code in the 1227747 truck TBI ECM. The 2.8L V-6's from the era also used the same 1227730 ECM, and the 90-92 5.0 and 5.7L TPI's used the same ECM! From 4 cylinder to V-8, all with the same ECM..... I've got just about all the code to the 4 cyl, V-6 (Both MAF and MAP) and V-8's done. Interesting stuff, almost an addiction I'd say! Someone was speaking of EGR earlier, and I was looking at a file that was labeled ADSFB350, This chip may be what makes the EPA upset with the aftermarket. It completely shut off the EGR function, and then added a bit more timing at WOT and a little higher number in the slow speed vol eff table at WOT. Later, Scot Sealander Oh, I almost forgot! The C3 seems to have a hybrid motorola chip. It has the instuction set of the 6801 (multiply), but the pinout is nearly the 6802, and yes the GN computer uses the GM 6801 processor. GM used that same processor for over 10 years! And cooldave, if you are reading this, I would like a copy of the binary file for the GN! Thanks! From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jun 1 04:26:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA11441; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 04:24:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cdr.stanford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA11436; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 00:24:16 -0400 Received: from DialupEudora (tip-mp4-ncs.Stanford.EDU [36.173.0.14]) by cdr.stanford.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA09228 for ; Wed, 31 May 1995 21:24:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 21:25:02 -0800 To: diy_efi From: carryer@cdr.stanford.edu (Ed Carryer) Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I am wondering if the GNX really used the 6801, or if >it was really a 6811. Anyone know this for sure? I think that that CPU was referred to as the GMP4, it was a custom for GM, that used a 6801 core. ed -- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jun 1 04:45:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA11974; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 04:44:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cdr.stanford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA11969; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 00:44:21 -0400 Received: from DialupEudora (tip-mp2-ncs.Stanford.EDU [36.173.0.12]) by cdr.stanford.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA09344 for ; Wed, 31 May 1995 21:44:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 21:45:07 -0800 To: diy_efi From: carryer@cdr.stanford.edu (Ed Carryer) Subject: Re: OEM EFI computers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>I am wondering if the GNX really used the 6801, or if >>it was really a 6811. Anyone know this for sure? > >I think that that CPU was referred to as the GMP4, >it was a custom for GM, that used a 6801 core. > >ed >-- On second thought, make that GMP3, the GMP4 was a 6811 core. ed --