From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 1 10:55:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA07436; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:51:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA07422; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 06:51:35 -0400 Received: from bal [134.169.34.11] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id MAA00658 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:50:49 +0200 Received: from knick@localhost by bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id MAA13770 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:50:47 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199508011050.MAA13770@bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: efi from an at bus plug in board To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 12:50:46 MET DST In-Reply-To: <950731115415_44578549@aol.com> from "ALIPPER@aol.com" at Jul 31, 95 11:54:15 am Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Al, I thought about such a project for a long time, but never made it up to a real board. So, I am another "Me Too!". Thanks, Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig near Wolfsburg knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 1 22:56:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01400; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:50:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mamacass.sp.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01386; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 18:50:47 -0400 Received: from zombie.dpdl (zombie.sp.TRW.COM) by mamacass.sp.trw.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29152; Tue, 1 Aug 95 15:50:34 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 15:50:34 PDT From: scot@mamacass.sp.trw.com (Scot O. Stockton) Message-Id: <9508012250.AA29152@mamacass.sp.trw.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: efi from an at bus plug in board Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Say, anyone out there know how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline? Specifically, the gas today in SoCal. Also, what is a typical engine efficiency for a big block V8? I beg forgiveness if this is in a FAQ that I have not gottento yet. TIA, -S From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 2 00:59:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA02097; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 00:58:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02083; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 20:58:21 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA15620 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:58:12 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199508020058.KAA15620@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: efficiencies To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:58:12 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9508012250.AA29152@mamacass.sp.trw.com> from "Scot O. Stockton" at Aug 1, 95 03:50:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1253 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Say, anyone out there know how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline? > Specifically, the gas today in SoCal. Also, what is a typical engine > efficiency for a big block V8? > Typical efficiency for a modern efi engine would be around 30-32% at the point of maximum efficiency (WOT 2000 - 5000 rpm). Overall operating efficiency may be 5-10% depending on use. I'd guess that a big block V8 would be less efficient, but admit that I've never had the opportunity (luckily) to test one in our engine labs. The largest engines we've tested (apart from diesels) are 4.0 litre 6 cylider passenger car engines. 38 - 42% is the best we have been able to attain using high compression, high turbulence, lean burn designs. Robert 'off to inject hydrogen into the Lancia' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 2 06:45:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA03104; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:43:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA03090; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:43:21 -0400 From: ALIPPER@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA254955579; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:39:39 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:39:39 -0400 Message-Id: <950802023938_46053851@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: efi from an at bus plug in board Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To all those interested in my PC-based EFI controller schematic, software and supporting techie info. I'm planning to put together a zipfile with everything needed to get it up and running with minimal trouble. I will either place it at an FTP site or uuencode it and send it to people on request. In any case, I will be away until 8/14 so be patient, I will make it availble when I return. Thanks for all the interest. - Al - alipper@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 3 01:32:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA07331; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 01:23:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA07317; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 21:23:15 -0400 Received: from [132.236.155.147] (CU-DIALUP-1105.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.147]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA10675 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 21:23:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 21:23:06 -0400 X-Sender: spm4@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: spm4@cornell.edu (Sean Magnuson) Subject: FJ1200 Project (still waiting!) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've been eagerly awaiting a response from someone concerning my FJ1200 project. Since my last posting I reviewed literature from Electromotive, Inc., and found their systems to be very applicable, especially the "A" series individual throttle bodies and associated hardware, but found their prices to be somewhat higher than I would like (system cost ~$2,500). They require significant licensing fees and major upgrade fees for all their control and calibration software. I am waiting for lit. from Haltech, Bosch, and a few others, but have had little luck in finding other sources. Any suggestions? Again, I appreciate any help you have to offer. Thanks, Sean Magnuson spm4@cornell.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 3 04:31:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA08180; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 04:29:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.computek.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08166; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:29:08 -0400 Message-ID: <9508022330.AA10482@ns1.computek.net> Received: from computek.net by ns1.computek.net; Wed, 2 Aug 95 23:30 CDT X-Sender: ricrain@computek.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 23:27:41 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: ricrain@computek.net (Ric Rainbolt) Subject: Re: efficiencies Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Typical efficiency for a modern efi engine would be around 30-32% at the >point of maximum efficiency (WOT 2000 - 5000 rpm). Overall operating >efficiency may be 5-10% depending on use. That's actually fairly useful info! I have some additional questions: Q: What is the typical pumping efficiency of a 4 valve small bore engine (say, around 3" bore)? Q: Does pumping efficiency typically go down with bore size? Q: What is a typical mach index for a small bore 4 valve? Q: How do these numbers change for a 2 valve motor? Thanks, Ric Rainbolt ricrain@computek.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 3 13:08:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA09060; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:07:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09046; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:07:01 -0400 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (gt0035b@acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA26178 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:06:55 -0400 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer) Received: (gt0035b@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25775 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:06:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199508031306.JAA25775@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: FJ1200 Project (still waiting!) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:06:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Sean Magnuson" at Aug 2, 95 09:23:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1117 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Sean Magnuson wrote > > I've been eagerly awaiting a response from someone concerning my > FJ1200 project. Since my last posting I reviewed literature from > finding other sources. Any suggestions? Again, I appreciate any help you > have to offer. > spm4@cornell.edu The units from Acell cost less than $1,000 with software and I've never heard anything good about Electromotive (YMMV). I probably shouldn't do this but since your address is Cornell maybe you should stop by the FSAE team there. They need someone to distract them anyway :) They have had fuel injection on their car for years and have probably used most of the systems your looking at. I believe that they make their own system right now. If you don't know how to get in touch with them look up Dr. George he is their advisor. Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | 5? | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | 11 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 4 09:42:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA12172; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:33:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mercury.Sun.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA12158; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 05:33:18 -0400 Received: from snail.Corp.Sun.COM.Sun.COM by mercury.Sun.COM (Sun.COM) id CAA25928; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 02:33:11 -0700 Received: from UK.Sun.COM (sunuk) by snail.Corp.Sun.COM.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20605; Fri, 4 Aug 95 02:33:07 PDT Received: from midsun.UK.Sun.COM by UK.Sun.COM (5.x/SMI-4.1e-UK) id AA14628; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:33:14 +0100 Received: from discovery.uk.sun.com by midsun.UK.Sun.COM (5.0/SMI-5.0-sec(uk - sec)) id AA10390; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:33:09 +0100 Received: by discovery.uk.sun.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03292; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:32:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:32:27 +0100 From: Roger.Collier@UK.Sun.COM (Roger Collier) Message-Id: <9508040932.AA03292@discovery.uk.sun.com> To: diy_efi Subject: DIY_EFI question X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Using individual throttle bodies with inlet horns (velocity stacks) Anyone know a formula for length of the inlet tract to give ram effect at various rpm? Mr Bowling's home page has a program but it doesn't take account of valve timing so I'm not sure how useful it would be. Roger. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 4 15:44:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA12975; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:42:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA12961; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:41:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199508041541.LAA12961@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA075080909; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:41:49 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: DIY_EFI question To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 11:41:49 EDT In-Reply-To: <9508040932.AA03292@discovery.uk.sun.com>; from "Roger Collier" at Aug 04, 95 10:32 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ ~ Hi, ~ ~ Using individual throttle bodies with inlet horns (velocity stacks) ~ Anyone know a formula for length of the inlet tract to give ram effect ~ at various rpm? ~ ~ Mr Bowling's home page has a program but it doesn't take account of ~ valve timing so I'm not sure how useful it would be. ~ ~ Roger. ~ The pulsing effect is caused when the valve slams shut on the head, which produces a pressure pulse which bounces between the throttle plates and the valve, so in some sense valve timing IS taken into account. What is not taken into account are differing cam profiles, because you want the reflected pulse to arrive back when the valve is open, and air temperature and vapor pressure. However, the equations on the WWW page, which I obtained from Superflow, are "empirical" enough to get a close ballpark. Anything better needs more infomation, and a numerical simulation of air density, piston speed, valve lift profiles, incident and reflected wave bounces from the valve/throttle (which will cause diffusion), etc. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 4 16:21:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA13312; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:19:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mamacass.sp.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA13298; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:19:04 -0400 Received: from zombie.dpdl (zombie.sp.TRW.COM) by mamacass.sp.trw.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02980; Fri, 4 Aug 95 09:18:55 PDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 09:18:55 PDT From: scot@mamacass.sp.trw.com (Scot O. Stockton) Message-Id: <9508041618.AA02980@mamacass.sp.trw.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Closing loops... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Question came up here at work yesterday - since individual injectors are controllable, has anyone closed loops around individual cylinder operation by mounting sensors in the individual exhaust primaries? And I found the energy density of gasoline to be ~123kBTU/gal, which I am derating by 10% for L.A.s reformulated gas (getting ~10% poorer milage generally). Comment? (And I haven't read the archives yet) L8r, -S [EFI Rat infested '39 Ford Tudor Sedan Deluxe] {Chopped, nosed, shaved, slammed and frenched - - sounds sorta like Cher or Michael, no?} From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 6 20:32:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA21032; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 20:25:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA21018; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:25:27 -0400 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA15278 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:25:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:25:19 -0500 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199508062025.PAA15278@eagle.natinst.com> To: diy_efi Subject: efi on a pc Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Al Lipper wrote : > Given the number of people interested in my design, I think an FTP site >would be a good idea. Basically, the files of interest are the schematic >(currently in OrCAD form, but probably more useful in a generic graphic >format - any suggestions?), the functional description, a sample program >(written in GW-BASIC) and an Excel 5 workbook (includes pulse calibration >tables and graphs for a 2.5L TBI engine). As far as the circuit itself goes, >the main chips are an 8254 (programmable timer), an 8255 (Parallel I/O), and >an ADC0816 (16 channel A/D converter). The rest is address decoding, data & >signal buffering, driver circuitry, and some clever glue logic. > >Please let me know how this is best organized. I was thinking of putting it >all in one or two zip files - it is pretty small. I will be on vacation >until approx. 8/14, so I'll get it together when I return. > > - Al - I suggest having the schematic available in postscript at least. I'm wondering if someone has space on an ftp site for this stuff. I don't know what an Excel workbook is but I would like to see engine maps in some ascii human readable form or at least postscript. Any other opinions? mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 13:52:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA22727; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:44:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.nsc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA22713; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:44:23 -0400 Received: from nsc.nsc.com by gatekeeper.nsc.com (5.65/fma-120691) with SMTP; id AA03428 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 7 Aug 95 06:44:14 -0700 Received: from gpo.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.65/1.34) with SMTP id AA19726 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 7 Aug 95 06:44:11 -0700 Received: from SPF.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by gpo.nsc.com (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA00902; Mon, 7 Aug 95 06:32:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 95 06:32:00 -0700 Message-Id: <9508071332.AA00902@gpo.nsc.com> From: dmorrill%spf.dnet@gpo.nsc.com (DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574) To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu"%GPO.dnet@gpo.nsc.com Cc: DMORRILL@gpo.nsc.com Subject: Engine dyno for EFI project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? Before I start my efi project I want to build a dyno so I can benchmark my results and debug the system in the shop. I initially began thinking about using a disc brake for a load, and measuring the torque-losses on the pad to get an approximate torque measurement Even had a method to calibrate w/ a torque wrench. The numbers would not be exact but at least I would be able to see relative improvements as I made changes to the efi system. But then I though about a cast iron disc spinning at >7000 RPM and did not feel like this was very safe, heat and wear would be significant probs as well, - any comments ? I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? Any advice on where to get an applicable pump? thanks, Dave. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 14:37:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA23149; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 14:28:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA23130; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:28:36 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA05798 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:28:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071428.AA05798@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:28:27 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:28:27 -0400 To: DIY_EFI Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 95 06:32:00 PDT." <9508071332.AA00902@gpo.nsc.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 10:28:24 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Most dynos used for engine development at OEMs are electric. For info on water dynos, you might try calling Superflow. I think they are based in Colorado Springs. They may have some small, inexpensive models or components. --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 15:56:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23604; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:44:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from egate1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23590; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:44:01 -0400 Received: by egate1.eds.com (hello) id LAA02755; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:43:55 -0400 Received: by igate1.eds.com (hello) id LAA12464; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:43:54 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA27375; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:43:17 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA155619931; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:38:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 95 11:22:43 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dave Morrill wrote: >Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? >... >I initially began thinking about using a disc brake for a load... Of course, that's what early dynamometers were, a brake, giving rise to terms such as "brake horsepower". I'm not saying you can't do it, but I was part of a quick experiment once to do just such a thing. I would recommend against it unless you are willing to put in some serious engineering analysis and development. For that effort and expense you'd be better off buying a water brake dyno as Anthony suggested. >But then I though about a cast iron disc spinning at >7000 RPM and did not feel >like this was very safe, heat and wear would be significant probs as well, Yes to all of the above. >The numbers would not be >exact but at least I would be able to see relative improvements as I made >changes to the efi system. If you are willing to live with that level of inaccuracy, then it seems to me that in-vehicle tests will give you what you are looking for (I assume this is for a vehicle of some sort). >I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the >calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of >liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? Measure the mass flow rate and the temperature rise across the water brake. Just how much horsepower are you talking about? There are machine shops that will rent dyno time. That is probably the best way to go in terms of safety and low capital investment. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 16:32:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23753; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:20:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23737; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:20:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071620.MAA23737@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA120432427; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:20:27 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:20:26 EDT In-Reply-To: <9508071332.AA00902@gpo.nsc.com>; from "DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574" at Aug 07, 95 6:32 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ Hello, ~ Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? ~ Before I start my efi project I want to build a dyno so I can benchmark my ~ results and debug the system in the shop. ~ I initially began thinking about using a disc brake for a load, and ~ measuring the torque-losses on the pad to get an approximate torque measurement ~ Even had a method to calibrate w/ a torque wrench. The numbers would not be ~ exact but at least I would be able to see relative improvements as I made ~ changes to the efi system. ~ But then I though about a cast iron disc spinning at >7000 RPM and did not feel ~ like this was very safe, heat and wear would be significant probs as well, ~ - any comments ? ~ ~ I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the ~ calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of ~ liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? Any advice on where to get an ~ applicable pump? ~ ~ thanks, ~ Dave. ~ ~ ~ I had an idea a while back, but never followed up on it. Why not use a calibrated alternator for a load device? For instance, when you turn on the headlights, the engine RPMs drop down a small amount. This drop is caused by the alternator "sucking" up some of the total energy delivered by the engine. If one kept a constant current draw on an alternator, a table of rotational torque vs. RPM can be created. Even easier if one wants only relative power improvements: make switchable load that can be electrically switched on and off the alternator (ie. alternator has either no load at all, or a fixed electrical load), at at a given no alternator load RPM, switch on the alternator load and watch the RPM drop and save this drop. Now, after a engine modification, repeat the above - better engine power means lower delta RPM (I think). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 16:53:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23892; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:49:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from egate1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23878; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:49:17 -0400 Received: by egate1.eds.com (hello) id MAA03409; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:49:10 -0400 Received: by igate1.eds.com (hello) id MAA17843; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:49:09 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA16951; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:48:36 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA163143856; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:44:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 95 12:06:12 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: DIY_EFI question To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Bowling wrote: >The pulsing effect is caused when the valve slams shut on the head, which >produces a pressure pulse which bounces between the throttle plates and >the valve, so in some sense valve timing IS taken into account. Just to clarify this portion of his message, it is my understanding that the movement of the valve does not cause the pulse per se. The rarefaction wave that progresses away from the valve up the intake runner begins shortly after the valve opens. When it reaches the end of the runner (let's say we're at WOT and the runner opens to the atmosphere), the wave gets reflected back toward the valve as a compression wave. If the timing is right, that wave arrives at the valve during the valve overlap period (four-stroke assumed here) to assist in scavenging. It's really a question of impedance. When the valve does close, it may push a little air backwards on its own (although the air would prefer to slide around the valve, it's not like it's trapped). However, the air column in the runner has momentum and rebounds against the closed valve, which I believe is the more significant effect. What happened is that the impedance of the valve suddenly went from low to high, and you had inductance in the runner before it, so you get a ringing condition. You should find the same effect in an engine with, say, rotary valves that do not move colinearly with air flow. I'd love to see Bruce's WWW page, but regrettably I don't have access from here. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 17:38:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA24049; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:36:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA24035; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:36:06 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09431 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:35:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id KAA07148; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:35:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199508071735.KAA07148@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Electricaly braked dyno Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 10:35:54 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >~ I initially began thinking about using a disc brake for a load, and >~ measuring the torque-losses on the pad to get an approximate torque measurement >~ Even had a method to calibrate w/ a torque wrench. The numbers would not be >~ exact but at least I would be able to see relative improvements as I made > I i>had an idea a while back, but never followed up on it. Why not use a >calibrated alternator for a load device? For instance, when you turn >on the headlights, the engine RPMs drop down a small amount. This > Once upon a time I worked on a nuclear reactor program where the reactor heated Nitrogen gas. The heated gas was expanded across a turbine to extract mechanical power. The dyno was a large DC generator which drove a resistance bank. Power into the bank was W=ExI. There were, of course, friction, windage, and electrical parasitic losses. Loading on the turbine was controlled by varying the generator's field current. It was not an efficient system. Megawatts nuclear produced killowatts electrical Harmon From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 17:44:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA24086; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:42:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA24072; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:42:47 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA10478 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:42:40 -0400 Message-id: <9066353@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 07 Aug 95 13:42:40 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: RE: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu We were looking into building our own dyno here at Dartmouth, too, but aborted when we figured that someone might get hurt and one of the local farm equipment rental places lent us a tractor dyno (cool!). Someone recommended that you call Superflow to look into what they've got... they're real nice and helpful over there if you just need info but if you haven't got 20G's to lay down, they won't have any equipment for you. I think your best bet is to check out Stutska for a water brake. I think their brakes start around $1500 and I know they've been around a long time cause one of my profs had a Stutska in the 60's. Their # is 303-762-0553. some other dyno companies are: Dynamic Test: 415-856-7676 Dyno Lab: 206-243-8877 Go-Power: 214-446-2046 I think go-power has some more economically priced stuff, too. Good luck & keep me posted on what you discover! Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 7 19:12:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA24242; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:10:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gmi.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24228; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:10:42 -0400 Received: from apollo (apollo.gmi.edu) by gmi.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA27959; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:14:25 -0400 Received: by apollo (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA04307; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:09:26 +0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:09:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" X-Sender: graydon@apollo To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project In-Reply-To: <199508071620.MAA23737@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 7 Aug 1995, Bruce Bowling wrote: > I had an idea a while back, but never followed up on it. Why not use a > calibrated alternator for a load device? For instance, when you turn Some of the students at GMI built a dyno out of an alternator for their SAE supermileage project. It worked OK for that engine, but that was only making a couple HP. You need a very big alternator to draw 100-200 hp. That is basically how an Eddy current Dyno works. You vary the electrical load on the alternator to maintain engine RPM, regardless of the engine's throttle position. Later, Graydon D. Stuckey graydon@apollo.gmi.edu '86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, GDS Racing Stage 1 '83 Mazda RX7 w/13B, GDS Racing Stage 58474 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 00:40:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA25052; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:35:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from jackson.freenet.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA25038; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:35:00 -0400 Received: by jackson.freenet.org (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15444; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:29:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:29:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brandon L. Walters" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project In-Reply-To: <199508071620.MAA23737@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have imagined such a project myself. I saw an article a few years back which described a portable dyno for military use. Rather than a water brake, they used a large blower, with adjustable vanes on it. There was intake from both sides, outlet at the top. That way it wouldn't try to walk around. I also wondered, for tuning work, if a small trailer with a computer controlled brake in it could be pulled. Upon reaching a steady speed, the computer would ease the brake on, while the operator tried to maintain speed. Only for manual transmissions, I guess. Brandon From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 00:40:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA25035; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:33:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from unknown by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA25021; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:33:40 -0400 Received: by unknown (1.37.109.14/16.2) id AA023322071; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:34:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:34:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: CO Emissions Problem To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All! I hope you don't object to my posting of this message, as it doesn't really pertain to DIY_EFI but I bet some of you can answer the question intelligently, unlike some folks on the newsgroups. My girlfriend has a 1985 Toyota Tercel SR5 4WD wagon. The car has over 200,000 miles on it (2nd hand Japanese engine installed at 140,000 miles) and she is planning on dumping it soon. In the meantime, it has failed emissions testing twice and she has 30 days to do something about it. Below are the results: RPM HC (ppm) CO (%) CO + CO2 (%) Limits <220 <1.20 >6.00 Test 1: 965 70 .05 10.55 2537 90 1.98 (FAIL) 12.60 After cleaning 3 mo. old NipponDenso Sparkplugs, new aircleaner, carburetor cleaning, new cap & rotor... Test 2: 920 25 0.00 13.16 2570 139 3.68 (FAIL) 17.08 Boy am I glad I wasted an afternoon on the car so it could do even worse!!! The carburetor is supposedly a sealed unit so adjustments are not possible? My question is this: What can I do that will improve the CO number significantly, cheaply, easily and even temporarily? Here are my initial ideas: 1. Lean out combustion mixture to increase combustion temperature A. Remove air cleaner B. Kink the fuel line C. Add _______ to the fuel (Alcohol, NitroMethane, ???) 2. Adjust spark plug gap (Do I want more or less?) 3. Will spark timing affect this or not? I drive a 1984 Plymouth (Mitsubishi) Colt GTS Turbo that is fuel injected and has never given me any trouble with emissions. Therefore my knowlege of cars is somewhat limited to how to trick them or otherwise enourage them to go faster--none of this irritating carburetor with a zillion linkages and dashpots!!!! I appologize again for disturbing your otherwise high-tech discussion, Feel free to email me directly to reduce traffic. Thanks, Joel Robinson robinj@src.usbm.gov From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 01:23:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA25288; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:16:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25273; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:16:31 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #14) id m0sfdH8-000CydC; Mon, 7 Aug 95 20:16 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:16:10 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Aug 7, 95 11:22:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2602 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Lansinger writes: > Dave Morrill wrote: > >Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? > >... > >I initially began thinking about using a disc brake for a load... > > Of course, that's what early dynamometers were, a brake, giving rise to terms > such as "brake horsepower". > > I'm not saying you can't do it, but I was part of a quick experiment once > to do just such a thing. I would recommend against it unless you are willing > to put in some serious engineering analysis and development. For that effort >and expense you'd be better off buying a water brake dyno as Anthony suggested. The problem is that all of that absorbed energy has to go somewhere-- And its going to go there as heat... trying to absorb 200+ HP, I'd guess youd about 30 seconds out of a typical set of pads and a rotor. > If you are willing to live with that level of inaccuracy, then it seems to > me that in-vehicle tests will give you what you are looking for (I assume > this is for a vehicle of some sort). Real timeslips from a dragstrip are VERY useful for high end tuning. > >I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the > >calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of > >liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? > > Measure the mass flow rate and the temperature rise across the water brake. Ick, way too inaccurate and too complex. Mount the absorber so that the whole thing can spin. Attach a bar that projects radially. Use a linear force measurement device to hold the other end of the bar. A heavy duty spring scale will work, a steel bar with a strain gauge is preferable (and is what most commercial dynos use). Really high end commercial dynos will have a "torque cell" between the engine and the absorber. The torque is a shaft supported on bearings, with strain gauges on the shaft and slip rings to make the electrical connections. Pretty accurate, very high dollar. > There are machine shops that will rent dyno time. That is probably the best > way to go in terms of safety and low capital investment. I've never verified this, but I've heard that used double roller 250HP water brake chassis dynos go for around $2k. These things are pretty good for dialing in fuel/spark up to about 200 HP (rear wheel). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 01:34:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA25329; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:27:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25315; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:27:37 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #14) id m0sfdRt-000CumC; Mon, 7 Aug 95 20:27 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:27:17 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508071620.MAA23737@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "Bruce Bowling" at Aug 7, 95 12:20:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1523 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Bowling writes: > > I had an idea a while back, but never followed up on it. Why not use a > calibrated alternator for a load device? For instance, when you turn > on the headlights, the engine RPMs drop down a small amount. This > drop is caused by the alternator "sucking" up some of the total > energy delivered by the engine. If one kept a constant current > draw on an alternator, a table of rotational torque vs. RPM can be created. > Even easier if one wants only relative power improvements: make > switchable load that can be electrically switched on and off the > alternator (ie. alternator has either no load at all, or a fixed > electrical load), at at a given no alternator load RPM, switch > on the alternator load and watch the RPM drop and save this drop. > Now, after a engine modification, repeat the above - better engine > power means lower delta RPM (I think). A standard 60amp automotive alternator can absorb about 2HP I think. Not much use for an autmotive dyno.. We had a 250HP Eaton Eddy Current dyno at UTexas. The absorber was a giant DC generator that took up about twice as much space as my small block Chevy did. Water cooled, too. And the associated power electronics filled up three 3'x8'x3' cabinets. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 03:17:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA25604; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 03:05:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA25590; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:04:54 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id NAA17598 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:04:23 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199508080304.NAA17598@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:04:22 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9508071332.AA00902@gpo.nsc.com> from "DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574" at Aug 7, 95 06:32:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2828 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dave writes, > > Hello, > Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? > Before I start my efi project I want to build a dyno so I can benchmark my > results and debug the system in the shop. Dynos can be categorised according to the job that they have to do. How much power will your engine produce at the flywheel? Do you require the dyno to motor the engine? Do you wish to do transient tests or even full drivecycle tests? A water brake is one of the simplest and most rugged apparatus. (In fact, I have a disassembled 450 HP H&F water brake (circa 1926) sitting under a shelf that I want to get rid of one day. It is still 12 years newer than one of the units in our lab). An eddy current load cell is also quite simple (especially air cooled versions). They basically comprise a truck retarder (usually a Telma) with a controller and cooling system. Our air cooled chassis dyno will handle 350 bhp at the wheels and has been used to test prime movers as well as many cars. For more real world simulation applications, a motoring dyno may be required. In out labs we use a couple of different configurations. There is an eddy current load and DC motor drive system. My own work revolves around a hydraulic dyno/motor. The load cell is a hydraulic pump/motor. Next to this is a large 50HP DC motor with another hydraulic pump and a heat exchanger. The system can switch from motoring to absorbing within milli- seconds. Often I have run out of fuel during fixed speed tests and not even noticed before checking the gauges. There is also a large disk brake dyno that isn't currently used, so I assume this system is possible. For your application, have you considered a simple inertia dyno (as used for motorcycle tuning). They are basically a large flywheel. Another option for single speed tests would be a large torque convertor + associated plumbing for cooling. One word of warning. Make sure your driveshaft is properly balanced and shielded, and avoid speeds which excite their resonant frequencies. You will require a much larger than standard engine fylwheel and a flexible coupling in the driveline somewhere between engine and dyno to absorb torsional vibration. I'm sorry to sound so grim, but a student was killed in Victoria earlier this year when a dyno driveshaft let go. Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 07:54:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA25992; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 07:53:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA25970; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 03:53:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id TAA12641; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:41:22 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199508080741.TAA12641@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:41:21 +1200 (NZST) In-Reply-To: <199508080304.NAA17598@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Aug 8, 95 01:04:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 296 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu While we are on the subject of dynos et al, is it feasible to measure crankshaft twist between flywheel and front pulley (crank snout) ? How is for later but I wonder if there's a whole lot of information about what's happening inside, poking out both ends of the motor. Just a thought. Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 07:54:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA25978; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 07:53:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA25963; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 03:53:08 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id AAA20411; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:52:59 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id AAA15608; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:52:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:52:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: efi on a pc In-Reply-To: <199508062025.PAA15278@eagle.natinst.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu How about .dxf for the CAD stuff and .jpg for the graphics... also maybe don't .zip it all or have two copies. My machine has trouble un-zipping some files. MK From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 08:16:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA26058; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:16:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26044; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 04:16:08 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id BAA20865; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:15:32 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id BAA16826; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:15:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI cc: DIY_EFI, atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project In-Reply-To: <199508071428.AA05798@internet-mail.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu K&N have also just put out a new system called the Dynojet. It's a 1200 hp single roller chassis dyno. I think its electric. I saw it at the battle of the imports this weekend and it worked quite well... Something a little more realistic you may want to try is using an accelerometer (sp?) hooked up to a laptop then logging acceleration runs through say 3rd gear. p.s. if anyone has any ideas how to set a system like this up, I have two Mitsu accelerometers from the stock ABS system that I'd like to use... MK From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 08:25:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA26089; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:25:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from slw.frank.ee by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26075; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 04:24:55 -0400 Received: from frank.ee (prime.frank.ee [193.65.209.18]) by slw.frank.ee (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA20929 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:07:14 GMT Received: by frank.ee with NT SMTP Gateway ver 31 id <30271F5A@frank.ee>; Tue, 08 Aug 95 11:24:58 G From: Rene Arro To: EFI Subject: RE: efi on a pc Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 12:17:00 G Message-ID: <30271F5A@frank.ee> Encoding: 14 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I suggest having the schematic available in postscript at least. I'm wondering >if someone has space on an ftp site for this stuff. I don't know what an Excel >workbook is but I would like to see engine maps in some ascii human readable >form or at least postscript. Any other opinions? I am ready set up Web. rene@frank.ee From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 10:25:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA26234; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:24:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from voga.rmit.EDU.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA26220; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 06:24:04 -0400 Received: from minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU by voga.rmit.EDU.AU with SMTP id AA11951 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/qva1-oz for ); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:23:47 +1000 Received: (from s914440@localhost) by minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU (8.6.12/8.6.9/ram3) id UAA06310 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:23:48 +1000 From: Brian Neill Tiedemann Message-Id: <199508081023.UAA06310@minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:23:48 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199508080741.TAA12641@kcbbs.gen.nz> from "Steve Baldwin" at Aug 8, 95 07:41:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 418 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all, Reading the comments on dynos and setting them up, I thought of a couple of very large hydraulic pump/motors which I have... one is a gear pump, the other a 'gerola' type piston pump. Has anyone used hydraulics to make an engine dyno? Is high RPM a problem with hydraulic pumps? Any ideas for what kind of restriction would be appropriate for this type of application? just thoughts.. cheers, Brian. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 12:39:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA26396; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:38:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26382; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:38:34 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA27721 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:38:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199508081238.AA27721@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:38:01 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:38:01 -0400 To: DIY_EFI Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 08:37:59 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Another comment related to engine dynos ... There also exist commerically available vehicle performance computers. If what you're looking for is a quick, simple, and relatively inexpensive means of evaluating the performance benefits of changes to your vehicle, this might be the ticket. The device I'm familiar is a small box, about 20 cm x 10 cm x 5 cm, with an accelerometer, an LED display, and some electronics. It could be easily mounted to a dashboard or suction-cupped to a windshield. It recorded 0-60 mph time, 0-100 ft time and speed, etc. It was very easy to use, portable, less than $500, and when used with care (i.e. average several tests, run the vehicle both directions to minimize wind and elevation effects) it proved helpful in evaluating supercharger changes. I cannot remember the name of the device, but I have seen it sold via Ford Motorsport. Has anyone else used one of these things or recall the name? --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 13:15:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26776; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:13:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.nsc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26762; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:13:45 -0400 Received: from nsc.nsc.com by gatekeeper.nsc.com (5.65/fma-120691) with SMTP; id AA19557 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 8 Aug 95 06:13:37 -0700 Received: from gpo.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.65/1.34) with SMTP id AA12110 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 8 Aug 95 06:13:35 -0700 Received: from SPF.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by gpo.nsc.com (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA16682; Tue, 8 Aug 95 05:48:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 05:48:03 -0700 Message-Id: <9508081248.AA16682@gpo.nsc.com> From: dmorrill%spf.dnet@gpo.nsc.com (DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574) To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu"%GPO.dnet@gpo.nsc.com Cc: DMORRILL@gpo.nsc.com Subject: Engine dyno for EFI reqs 450-500hp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu All, Great comments on engine dyno's, much thanks! Many asked what our requirements are. -Target HP for the engine we are building is 400HP (turbo, Efi ~114 oct gas, ESC.) -Engine is for a drag car, however, typically we are only able to get 3-4 passes in before racing starts, this does not provide as much of an opportunity for tuning the engine as I'm sure we will initially need as we bring an EFI system online from the ground up. -Would like to be able to do static RPM as well as transient testing. -From your comments it seems a water brake may be the best way to go, however the transmission torque converter idea seems interesting as well??? Can they absorb the power/heat reliably? Can anyone recommend some reading for dyno testing strategies (I'm not familiar with the motoring technique that Robert Dingli mentioned)? Books, SAE papers, articles, etc... So far I've been unable to find any significant text on this topic, I will be contacting the dyno mfgs that Jeff and Anthony Tsakiris mentioned ASAP. Thanks and Best Regards, Dave. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 13:15:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26845; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:15:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from latcs1.lat.oz.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26827; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:15:16 -0400 From: kozuhia@latcs1.lat.oz.au Received: from lx2.lat.oz.au by latcs1.lat.oz.au (8.6.10/1.34) id XAA03616; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:15:16 +1000 Message-Id: <199508081315.XAA19292@lx2.lat.oz.au> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:15:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199508081238.AA27721@internet-mail.ford.com> from "atsakiri@ford.com" at Aug 8, 95 08:37:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1308 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Another comment related to engine dynos ... > > There also exist commerically available vehicle performance computers. If what > you're looking for is a quick, simple, and relatively inexpensive means of > evaluating the performance benefits of changes to your vehicle, this might > be the ticket. The device I'm familiar is a small box, about 20 cm x 10 cm > x 5 cm, with an accelerometer, an LED display, and some electronics. It > could be easily mounted to a dashboard or suction-cupped to a windshield. > It recorded 0-60 mph time, 0-100 ft time and speed, etc. It was very > easy to use, portable, less than $500, and when used with care (i.e. average > several tests, run the vehicle both directions to minimize wind and elevation > effects) it proved helpful in evaluating supercharger changes. I cannot > remember the name of the device, but I have seen it sold via Ford Motorsport. > Has anyone else used one of these things or recall the name? > > > --- > Anthony Tsakiris > > The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. > I used a Vericom machine once. That was the brand I think. costs about 500 bucks, very easy to use hope this helps -- ivan kozuhia@latcs2.lat.oz.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 13:16:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26869; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:16:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26855; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:16:12 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@[130.240.1.167] (osse210.mt.luth.se) by eru.mt.luth.se with SMTP id AA18426 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:16:02 +0200 X-Sender: set@eru.mt.luth.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:20:17 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@mt.luth.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hello, > Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? >Before I start my efi project I want to build a dyno so I can benchmark my >results and debug the system in the shop. > >I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the >calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of >liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? Any advice on where to get an >applicable pump? > >thanks, > Dave. Hi Dave. What about to use a torqe converter from a car. Block the output shaft and fill it more or less with oil. Pump the oil to/from a tank of 250L. If neserarry wind a coldwater tube in the tank. It could work;-). and it would be very economic. Any opinion on this? We are using Schenk eddie current and water brakes in the labbs. --- Sven-Erik Tiberg set@mt.luth.se ---- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 14:09:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA27111; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:07:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27097; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:07:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199508081407.KAA27097@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA059760834; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:07:14 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 10:07:14 EDT In-Reply-To: <199508081238.AA27721@internet-mail.ford.com>; from "atsakiri@ford.com" at Aug 08, 95 8:37 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ ~ Another comment related to engine dynos ... ~ ~ There also exist commerically available vehicle performance computers. If what ~ you're looking for is a quick, simple, and relatively inexpensive means of ~ evaluating the performance benefits of changes to your vehicle, this might ~ be the ticket. The device I'm familiar is a small box, about 20 cm x 10 cm ~ x 5 cm, with an accelerometer, an LED display, and some electronics. It ~ could be easily mounted to a dashboard or suction-cupped to a windshield. ~ It recorded 0-60 mph time, 0-100 ft time and speed, etc. It was very ~ easy to use, portable, less than $500, and when used with care (i.e. average ~ several tests, run the vehicle both directions to minimize wind and elevation ~ effects) it proved helpful in evaluating supercharger changes. I cannot ~ remember the name of the device, but I have seen it sold via Ford Motorsport. ~ Has anyone else used one of these things or recall the name? ~ ~ ~ --- ~ Anthony Tsakiris ~ ~ The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ~ The unit I have used is the Vericom computer. It works OK for street cars but cars with much vibration (racing) will cause false readings. One can do the same thing on the street (quite crude) by correlating engine RPMS with MPH (i.e. staying in one gear) and doing WOT acceleration runs saving the time it takes to obtain various RPMs, like 1000 RPM increments. A little math will yield a result for horsepower and torque. This method is quite error prone, however, and neither the Vericom or the "road" dyno technique I just described take into account differing environmental conditions, which can have a major impact on results. Of course, one can correct obtained values to standard or SAE conditions (I have a WEB page which performs the correction calculation). If there is interest, I can make a web page which does the math for the road dynomometer test (with environment correction). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 14:33:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA27181; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:32:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27167; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:31:57 -0400 Received: from sta.ericsson.se (sta-gw.ericsson.se [130.100.128.31]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.6.11/1.0) with SMTP id QAA16137 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:31:48 +0200 Received: from st76 (st76.ericsson.se) by sta.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-LME1.6) id AA20829; Tue, 8 Aug 95 16:31:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 16:31:47 +0200 From: etxmst@sta.ericsson.se (Markus Strobl) Message-Id: <9508081431.AA20829@sta.ericsson.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Hello, > > Does anyone have any tips or plans on how to build an engine dyno? > >Before I start my efi project I want to build a dyno so I can benchmark my > >results and debug the system in the shop. > > > >I guess the industry uses a water pump for a load, I'm not sure how to do the > >calculations, do you use water pressure as a measurement, flow rate of > >liquid? What method could be used to calibrate? Any advice on where to get an > >applicable pump? > > > >thanks, > > Dave. > > Hi Dave. > > What about to use a torqe converter from a car. Block the output > shaft and fill it more or less with oil. Pump the oil to/from a tank of > 250L. > If neserarry wind a coldwater tube in the tank. It could work;-). and it > would be very economic. > > Any opinion on this? I don't think this is a good idea. What you're describing is similar to power braking a car, i.e. pressing the gas and the brake at the same time. Torque converter manufacturers warn that more than 10 secs of power braking can cause something called balloning. Balloning is caused by the extreme internal pressures during power braking, and it ruins the converter. Markus (also in Sweden...Hi Sven-Erik) > We are using Schenk eddie current and water brakes in the labbs. > > --- Sven-Erik Tiberg set@mt.luth.se ---- > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 14:40:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA27227; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:39:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27213; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:39:39 -0400 Received: from sta.ericsson.se (sta-gw.ericsson.se [130.100.128.31]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.6.11/1.0) with SMTP id QAA16986 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:39:29 +0200 Received: from st76 (st76.ericsson.se) by sta.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-LME1.6) id AA20423; Tue, 8 Aug 95 16:08:38 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 16:08:38 +0200 From: etxmst@sta.ericsson.se (Markus Strobl) Message-Id: <9508081408.AA20423@sta.ericsson.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Another comment related to engine dynos ... > > There also exist commerically available vehicle performance computers. If what > you're looking for is a quick, simple, and relatively inexpensive means of > evaluating the performance benefits of changes to your vehicle, this might > be the ticket. The device I'm familiar is a small box, about 20 cm x 10 cm > x 5 cm, with an accelerometer, an LED display, and some electronics. It > could be easily mounted to a dashboard or suction-cupped to a windshield. > It recorded 0-60 mph time, 0-100 ft time and speed, etc. It was very > easy to use, portable, less than $500, and when used with care (i.e. average > several tests, run the vehicle both directions to minimize wind and elevation > effects) it proved helpful in evaluating supercharger changes. I cannot > remember the name of the device, but I have seen it sold via Ford Motorsport. > Has anyone else used one of these things or recall the name? Sounds like one of the Vericom computers. I have a VC200 and have found it very useful in determining improvements to my Camaro after changing camshaft, rear gears etc. Markus > > --- > Anthony Tsakiris > > The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 16:32:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27847; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:29:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27833; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:29:51 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA00612 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:29:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199508081629.AA00612@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:29:42 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:29:42 -0400 To: DIY_EFI Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 12:29:40 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Vericom! That's the one. Thanks. --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 18:12:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA28599; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:08:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA28585; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:08:47 -0400 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA22497; Tue, 8 Aug 95 11:49:35 -0700 Message-Id: <9508081849.AA22497@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Tue, 08 Aug 95 11:49:35 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: CA90C833 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: CA90C833 From: Jody Shapiro To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 10:06:39 PDT Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project X-Msxmtid: red-55-msg950808170658MTP[01.00.00]000000b6-7430 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: Michael Kent > > K&N have also just put out a new system called the Dynojet. It's a 1200 > hp single roller chassis dyno. I think its electric. I saw it at the > battle of the imports this weekend and it worked quite well... > > Something a little more realistic you may want to try is using an > accelerometer (sp?) hooked up to a laptop then logging acceleration runs > through say 3rd gear. > > p.s. if anyone has any ideas how to set a system like this up, I have two > Mitsu accelerometers from the stock ABS system that I'd like to use... You mentioned accelerometers. Does anyone know of/have a list of manufacturers and distributors with them in stock? I'm trying to find something in the <$100 range, 0-5g... Analog Devices makes two popular accelerometer chips, the ADXL05 and the ADXL50 (5g & 50g accelerometers), but the factory is backordered until March of '96, and I can't seem to find a distributor that has any in stock. Apparently the chips are real popular with auto manufacturers for use in air bags. IC Sensors makes some chips, but they seem a bit too high on my price range (around the $100 mark). Thanks, -Jody From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 18:21:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA29031; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:20:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA29002; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:19:59 -0400 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id LAA17636 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:19:50 -0700 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:19:46 UTC-0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:19:46 UTC-0700 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950808111946] Content-Identifier: 3123 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9508081849.AA22497@netmail2.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <"3123*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Analog Devices makes two popular accelerometer chips, the ADXL05 and > the ADXL50 (5g & 50g accelerometers), but the factory is backordered > until March of '96, and I can't seem to find a distributor that has any > in stock. Apparently the chips are real popular with auto > manufacturers for use in air bags. Try Newark for the ADXL05. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 18:33:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA29215; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:31:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from isy.liu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA29201; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:31:52 -0400 Received: from macken.isy.liu.se (fs-gw) by isy.liu.se (5.65b/isy.minimaster-V1.0b2) id AA24737; Tue, 8 Aug 95 20:31:43 +0200 Received: from duett.isy.liu.se by macken.isy.liu.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02744; Tue, 8 Aug 95 20:29:50 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 20:29:50 +0200 From: matny@isy.liu.se (Mattias Nyberg) Message-Id: <9508081829.AA02744@macken.isy.liu.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: dual lambda sensors Cc: matny@macken.isy.liu.se Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've noticed that several cars have two lambda sensors, one before the catalyst and the other after. I've heard that one reason for this is to improve the closed loop fuel control. How does it work? What is gained by using the second lambda sensor? Isn't the oxygen that the first lambda sensor measures used up in the catalyst so there is no oxygen left for the second lambda sensor to measure? Mattias Nyberg From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 19:13:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA29712; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:11:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29698; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:11:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199508081911.PAA29698@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA279059053; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:10:53 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 15:10:52 EDT In-Reply-To: <"3123*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS>; from "Rod Barman" at Aug 08, 95 11:19 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ ~ > Analog Devices makes two popular accelerometer chips, the ADXL05 and ~ > the ADXL50 (5g & 50g accelerometers), but the factory is backordered ~ > until March of '96, and I can't seem to find a distributor that has any ~ > in stock. Apparently the chips are real popular with auto ~ > manufacturers for use in air bags. ~ ~ Try Newark for the ADXL05. ~ ~ --rod. ~ ~ -- ~ Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence ~ University of British Columbia ~ rodb@cs.ubc.ca ~ ~ Motorola has a new set of accelerometer chips out that contain the accelerometer element, and the supporting bridge components, temp. compensated, so the only connections are +5V, ground, and voltage output. I think that these are expensive critters, however. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 19:26:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA29765; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:24:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from acad1.cc.uleth.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29749; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:24:00 -0400 From: furgason@hg.uleth.ca Received: by hg.uleth.ca (MX V4.1 VAX) id 1095; Tue, 08 Aug 1995 13:23:45 MST Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 13:23:45 MST To: diy_efi Message-ID: <0099491A.A6C0F8D4.1095@hg.uleth.ca> Subject: ADXLO5 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just rec'd ADXL05's from Allied Electronics. The process took about 3 weeks. Dan Furgason From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 19:31:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA29925; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:30:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29906; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:30:49 -0400 From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA0651; Tue, 08 Aug 95 15:33:30 -0700 Message-Id: <9508082233.AA0651@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 15:30:40 EST To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > You mentioned accelerometers. Does anyone know of/have a list of > manufacturers and distributors with them in stock? I'm trying to find > something in the <$100 range, 0-5g... > > Analog Devices makes two popular accelerometer chips, the ADXL05 and > the ADXL50 (5g & 50g accelerometers), but the factory is backordered > until March of '96, and I can't seem to find a distributor that has any > in stock. Apparently the chips are real popular with auto > manufacturers for use in air bags. I ordered a couple of these from Newark just a couple weeks ago. They only had the ADXL05 "J" part (I think thats it) in stock. They were about $20 each. Didn't someone just come out with a single chip accelerometer that can be programmed to give one of two axes or rotational acceleration. As I recall the chip was supposed to cost about $9. -tim From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 21:11:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA00683; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:09:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gmi.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00663; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:09:08 -0400 Received: from apollo (apollo.gmi.edu) by gmi.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA21709; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:12:47 -0400 Received: by apollo (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10144; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:07:46 +0500 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:07:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" X-Sender: graydon@apollo To: Mattias Nyberg Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: dual lambda sensors In-Reply-To: <9508081829.AA02744@macken.isy.liu.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Mattias Nyberg wrote: > I've noticed that several cars have two lambda sensors, one > before the catalyst and the other after. I've heard that one > reason for this is to improve the closed loop fuel control. > How does it work? What is gained by using the second lambda > sensor? Isn't the oxygen that the first lambda sensor measures > used up in the catalyst so there is no oxygen left for the > second lambda sensor to measure? Mattias, I have been told by a Ford calibration engineer that the second oxygen sensor is to measure catalytic convertor efficiency over long periods of time for the upcoming OBD-II requirements. It also fine tunes A/F ratio a little, but the OBD-II is the primary reason. Later, Graydon D. Stuckey graydon@apollo.gmi.edu '86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, GDS Racing Stage 1 '83 Mazda RX7 w/13B, GDS Racing Stage 58474 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 8 22:45:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01188; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:43:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01174; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:43:10 -0400 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA23982; Tue, 8 Aug 95 16:23:59 -0700 Message-Id: <9508082323.AA23982@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Tue, 08 Aug 95 16:23:59 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: 9378BB75 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 9378BB75 From: Jody Shapiro To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 15:40:38 PDT Subject: Re: Accelerometers X-Msxmtid: red-55-msg950808224056MTP[01.00.00]000000b6-9199 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ---------- > From: > I ordered a couple of these from Newark just a couple weeks ago. They > only had the ADXL05 "J" part (I think thats it) in stock. They were > about $20 each. I talked to them the other day and they said they were out until March '96. > Didn't someone just come out with a single chip accelerometer that can > be programmed to give one of two axes or rotational acceleration. As > I recall the chip was supposed to cost about $9. I'd be *very* interested in this chip if anyone knows anything about it. > From: > I just rec'd ADXL05's from Allied Electronics. The process took about 3 weeks. I called Allied and they're out of everything. The earliest they expect to receive anything are the "SP" version of the ADXL05 in October. Everything else is January. :( I also spoke with Motorola. They're in the preproduction process of introducing 3 new accelerometer chips (expected production date of September sometime). The three accelerometers are a 40g, a 250g, and a 500g sensor with a sample price of approx. $30. They're working on a 1-2g sensor, but that's still in the development process. -Jody From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 01:46:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02506; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:44:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02492; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:43:36 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id LAA14719 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:43:19 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199508090143.LAA14719@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI reqs 450-500hp To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:43:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9508081248.AA16682@gpo.nsc.com> from "DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574" at Aug 8, 95 05:48:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2463 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello again, > > All, > Great comments on engine dyno's, much thanks! > Many asked what our requirements are. > > -Target HP for the engine we are building is 400HP (turbo, Efi ~114 oct gas, > ESC.) > -Engine is for a drag car, however, typically we are only able to get > 3-4 passes in before racing starts, this does not provide as much > of an opportunity for tuning the engine as I'm sure we will initially > need as we bring an EFI system online from the ground up. Since the engine is for drag racing and will only produce power in short spurts, then a water brake or eddy current dyno of lower static capacity would suffice providing the connection is strong enough and that you gave it time to cool between runs. It's not uncommon to get an air cooled eddy current rotor glowing red hot. > -Would like to be able to do static RPM as well as transient testing. > -From your comments it seems a water brake may be the best way to go, however > the transmission torque converter idea seems interesting as well??? > Can they absorb the power/heat reliably? > I don't know the specifics of using a torque convertor - it was just an idea I had. As someone else pointed out, this may prove to be an unfeasable method. > Can anyone recommend some reading for dyno testing strategies (I'm not familiar > with the motoring technique that Robert Dingli mentioned)? Books, SAE papers, > articles, etc... So far I've been unable to find any significant text on this > topic, I will be contacting the dyno mfgs that Jeff and Anthony Tsakiris > mentioned ASAP. Motoring is when the dyno actually forces the engine to turn over. It is used for simulating the inertial effects of a car when the throttle is released and the car is coasting with the engine acting as a brake. You won't have to worry about this for your application. > > Thanks and Best Regards, > Dave. > > Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 01:46:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02545; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:45:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02526; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:45:21 -0400 Received: from mechman.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA15398; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:44:59 +1000 Received: from MECHMAN/MERCMAIL by mechman.mm.swin.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 9 Aug 95 11:46:46 +1000 Received: from MERCMAIL by MECHMAN (Mercury 1.21); 9 Aug 95 11:46:22 +1000 From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:46:16 EST+10 Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-Id: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jonathan R. Lusky wrote: > Really high end commercial dynos will have a "torque cell" between the > engine and the absorber. The torque is a shaft supported on bearings, > with strain gauges on the shaft and slip rings to make the electrical > connections. Pretty accurate, very high dollar. > Why not mount strain gauges on the gearbox input shaft, or the tail-shaft. You can get around 5% accuracy (or better) in the basic strain reading and if you use a few equations and know the material the gauges are mounted on you can calculate torque. The tricky part might be building some reliable slip rings. You can build a strain gauge amplifier quite easily. This could be a true on-road dyno, get instantaneous torque readings under acceleration or tune under constant load (feet on brake AND accelerator to maintain speed). Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Address: CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Swinburne University Phone: +61 3 9214 8296 PO Box 218 Fax: +61 3 9819 4949 Hawthorn Victoria 3122 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/ Australia From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 01:46:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02522; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:44:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02508; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:44:12 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma000806; Wed Aug 9 10:28:16 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.oz.au(137.147.20.34) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma002004; Wed Aug 9 11:41:52 1995 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id LAA00415 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:41:48 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199508090141.LAA00415@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI reqs 450-500hp To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:41:46 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9508081248.AA16682@gpo.nsc.com> from "DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574" at Aug 8, 95 05:48:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2263 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > All, > Great comments on engine dyno's, much thanks! > Many asked what our requirements are. > > -Target HP for the engine we are building is 400HP (turbo, Efi ~114 oct gas, > ESC.) > -Engine is for a drag car, however, typically we are only able to get > 3-4 passes in before racing starts, this does not provide as much > of an opportunity for tuning the engine as I'm sure we will initially > need as we bring an EFI system online from the ground up. > -Would like to be able to do static RPM as well as transient testing. > -From your comments it seems a water brake may be the best way to go, however > the transmission torque converter idea seems interesting as well??? > Can they absorb the power/heat reliably? I thought a dyno with a big disc brake on the output of the engine (either via an automatic transmission or with a brake master cylinder hydraulically/mechanically feeding back to keep the load constant), with a water spray on the brake to cool it. Perhaps a truck differential and brake assembly (ignore the fact that this would weigh serveral hundred kilos). Alternatively, how about a hacked automatic transmission with a varying amount of fluid in the convertor (no fluid=no load, full of fluid~= lockup). To implement this I thought you could drill some outlet holes on the outside periphery of the torque convertor to provide drainage, and the flow rate of fluid into the convertor varied to provide the level of fluid. Obviously this might need some fancy control to get it to work due to the drainage rate being faster at higher speeds. Also, if the drainage rate is not even the whole assembly could be out of balance (not nice at 7000 RPM :-( Or, how about driving another engine set up as a water pump (eg remove the valves or play with the cam timing so you don't try to compress the water, and have the water so it alternates between cylinders, with a water tap that is variable to control the load.) With any home brew type arrangement (especially when you're testing the 400hp sort of stuff mentioned above), I'd suggest something solid around the load device (eg 1/4" plate steel scatter shield), and the testing be done remotely (ie brick wall between you and the test rig.). Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 10:51:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA07503; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 10:49:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA07489; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 06:49:25 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HTUX2EGEO000009G@UALR.EDU>; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 05:49:15 CDT Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 19:43:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <156061.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> brake, they used a large blower, with adjustable vanes on it. There We hashed through a lot of this on the hotrod list a couple of years ago. The cheapest, simplest, most accurate system you could reasonably build at home would use a ducted aircraft propeller as the power absorber, with moving panels to control inlet air. Although it would probably be just great as the Leaf Blower From Hell, the noise would be a factor in most locations. Once you get past 50hp or so, it's hard to get rid of power. Where are parasitic losses when you *need* them? From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 12:25:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA07934; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:23:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA07918; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:22:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199508091222.IAA07918@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.37.109.16/15.6) id AA184930969; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 06:22:49 -0600 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: dual lambda sensors] To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 6:22:49 MDT In-Reply-To: <9508081829.AA02744@macken.isy.liu.se>; from "Mattias Nyberg" at Aug 8, 95 8:29 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > How does it work? What is gained by using the second lambda > sensor? Isn't the oxygen that the first lambda sensor measures > used up in the catalyst so there is no oxygen left for the > second lambda sensor to measure? What the O2 sensor measures isn't as straigtforward as you'd think. The sensor measures rich/lean as everybody expects... rich = .8 volts, lean = .1 volts (approx). The O2 sensor doesn't really respond to oxygen content, since engine misfires don't cause just a LEAN indication... If the engine is misfiring, a misfire rate of up to 2% gives an indication of LEAN, but RICH if it the misfire rate is over 3%. ... The p-p voltage output of the downstream sensor is used to determine catalyst efficiency. The cat works by oxygen storage: NOx oxygen is used to get rid of HC and CO. This alternating effect causes the downstream sensor to normally read a constant (normally close to 100 mv), since the cat averages everything out. If the cat looses efficiency, the output voltage starts to get rich 'bumps' in the output. If you have access to SAE papers, 920289 is a pretty good one on these sensors. -Dale From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 12:34:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA08081; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:33:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns2.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA08067; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:33:25 -0400 Received: by ns2.eds.com (hello) id IAA29144; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:33:18 -0400 Received: by nnsp.eds.com (hello) id IAA32469; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:33:17 -0400 Received: from koiasw15.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA15954 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Wed, 9 Aug 1995 07:33:16 -0500 Received: by koiasw15.delcoelect.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13384; Wed, 9 Aug 95 07:33:15 EST From: "Lawrence E. Piekarski" Message-Id: <9508091233.AA13384@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI reqs 450-500hp To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 07:33:15 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199508090143.LAA14719@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Aug 9, 95 11:43:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2278 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> Can anyone recommend some reading for dyno testing strategies (I'm not familiar >> with the motoring technique that Robert Dingli mentioned)? Books, SAE papers, >> articles, etc... So far I've been unable to find any significant text on this >> topic, I will be contacting the dyno mfgs that Jeff and Anthony Tsakiris >> mentioned ASAP. > >Motoring is when the dyno actually forces the engine to turn over. It is >used for simulating the inertial effects of a car when the throttle is >released and the car is coasting with the engine acting as a brake. > >You won't have to worry about this for your application. When I was at GMI, I used an electric dyno that as of the motoring type. It was 4000 rpm max and I had a quad-4 attached to it. The way it worked was simple. The engine was mounted to a rigid plate and had all the connections wired remotely to a separate room. The crankshaft was bolted to a big electric motor. The motor case was mounted in bearing so that it could spin freely and there was an arm mounted to the side of the motor case that was attached to a load cell. The motor was an industrial variable phase locked motor (or something like that). You dialed in the rpm and the motor just spun at the rpm and could not be sped up or slowed down. Now, you could play with the engine. Lets say you had the throttle wide open, but no spark for fuel (ignition off). The dyno registered a negative horsepower. This is the parasitic loss of the internals of the motor (windage, oil pump, friction). At some point, you could get the engine to product 0hp. This would be equivalent to idle. As you went to wide open throttle, the dyno registered positive horsepower. The design was simple. Finding an electric motor in the 7000-8000 rpm range could be a problem. Also, I don't know how much electronics were required to control the motor. The ability to motor the engine was very useful, IMHO. Especially on a drag engine, you are looking for the extra hp. Of course, this is a EFI group and there is not much you can do electrically when the system is off... -- (* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) (* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) (* c1ilep@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com *) (* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 14:50:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA09803; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:47:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA09789; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 10:47:40 -0400 From: SnoMo1@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA274099652; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 10:47:32 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 10:47:32 -0400 Message-Id: <950809104730_134207532@aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: efi from an at bus plug in board Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Al, This sounds like just the ticket to get me started in the DIY EFI world. The low cost, and AT bus availability makes it justifiable to get into. Please send any schematics and code/programming info you can. OrCad files should be ok (I believe we havve this at work). Many Thanks, Mark SnoMo1@AOL.COM From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 17:34:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12799; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:30:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay4.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12783; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:30:05 -0400 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzcbl07937; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:29:51 -0400 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA18078; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:29:47 -0500 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma018066; Wed Aug 9 12:28:53 1995 Received: from optilink.dsccc.com (optilink.optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA08471 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:28:51 -0500 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.dsccc.com with smtp id m0sgEvz-0002MLC; Wed, 9 Aug 95 10:28 PDT Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0sgExf-000Nz6C; Wed, 9 Aug 95 10:30 PDT Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 10:30 PDT From: Frank_Marrone@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com Message-Id: <9508091030.ZM1852@montreal> In-Reply-To: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) "Re: Engine dyno for EFI project" (Aug 8, 7:43pm) References: <156061.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Aug 8, 7:43pm, Dave Williams wrote: > Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project > We hashed through a lot of this on the hotrod list a couple of years > ago. The cheapest, simplest, most accurate system you could reasonably > build at home would use a ducted aircraft propeller as the power > absorber, with moving panels to control inlet air. What about jet type boat prop? A friend and I kicked this idea around about a year ago. You could bypass around the prop to get some load control. There are variable pitch models as well. You need a water resovoir but an above ground pool with appropriate baffeling could do the trick. We also thought that a houseboat model would be cool. We'll build the dyno room on the boat and go to the local lake. We could butt up against one of the bridge pylons for a test session in between cruising the lake. Jet props are wonderfully ineffeicient and it should be no problem to get one to eat 300 to 400 HP. The pool might boil after a while but the lake would provide a near infinite sink. -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 18:12:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA12904; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:09:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA12890; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:09:27 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <166384-2>; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:09:33 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15303; Wed, 9 Aug 95 14:01:53 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015299; Wed Aug 9 14:01:25 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01012; Wed, 9 Aug 95 14:07:43 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA03234; Wed, 9 Aug 95 14:08:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:08:02 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508091808.AA03234@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project References: <156061.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > What about jet type boat prop? If you are starting to look into boat dynos, Land & Sea Inc. makes a series of dynos that bolt onto the prop shaft. These are inexpensive (relatively) at around $5K but are complete including the dyno, hosing, and data collection computer. Land & Sea Inc. P.O. Box 96 North Salem, NH 03073 (603)329-5645 (603)329-5036 (fax) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 9 21:00:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13251; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 20:58:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA13237; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:57:58 -0400 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA23220; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:57:50 -0400 Date: 09 Aug 95 16:55:21 EDT From: Martin Evans <100341.377@compuserve.com> To: DIY EFI Mailing List Subject: Re: Engine dyno for EFI project Message-ID: <950809205520_100341.377_EHQ29-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Welcome to the DIY Engine Dyno mailing list In the UK there is a device available that is effectively a dyno that can be hand held. It is used by the RACMSA (Our National Motor Racing Organisation) for power checks on engines. Apparently it takes measurements of the ignition timing and rpm when the engine is revved in neutral. It can measure up to 25000 rpm and is accurate to 10bhp or so up to 300bhp. The device is called the Schrick LM1. Pricing is approximately 1000GBP. If anyone wants further details i'll be happy to oblige. Does anyone know whats happening to SSI and the 67F687 as supplies are drying up with even longer lead times being quoted (January/February next year at the moment)? Martin Evans 100341.377@compuserve.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 10 12:46:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA14637; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:44:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14623; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:44:29 -0400 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (gt9803a@acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00602 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:44:21 -0400 From: gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu (Thomas Ennis Bragg Jr.) Received: (gt9803a@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA04703 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:44:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199508101244.IAA04703@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Sensor Specifications To: DIY_EFI (EFI List) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:44:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 282 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, Where would I be able to find technical specifications on GM sensors like voltage and current levels, etc? I need this info for TPS, CTS, MAP, MAT, O2 from an 87 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo. But any info would help out. Thanks Ennis -- Ennis Bragg gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 05:11:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA15973; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 05:07:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA15959; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 01:07:47 -0400 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57348; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 23:05:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 23:05:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Grant Beattie Subject: Grounds, Shielding, etc... To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <"3004*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I need your expert advice on how to best shield electronics from noise/vibration generated in a vehicle so that the electronics can do it's job best. I'm partway into a data acquisition system (for a kart) and the system has it's own internal battery. Should my cpu "box" be grounded to the chassis of the vehicle or should it be isolated? Should various sensors have metal shielding around their cabling? One example I can give you is that I have a magnet and hall sensor on the rear (solid for karts) axle. This requires me to run +5v, Gnd and signal about 3' from the CPU to the sensor. I'm using a cable which has a ground shield and two inner conductors on which I'm placing +5v and signal. There is no connection whatsoever between this ground and the chassis. Is this good or evil? For what it's worth my preliminary tests were less than stunning with the CPU resetting itself intermittently. For the time being I had housed it in an unshielded plastic case and I think the ignition noise from the heathen Briggs 5hp motor overwhelmed it. Any ideas? GB From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 07:48:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA16139; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:43:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eskinews.eskimo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA16125; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 03:43:32 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by eskinews.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id AAA03070 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 00:43:21 -0700 Received: (from blane@localhost) by guetech.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23191; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:11:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:11:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Lane To: Do it Yourself Fuel Injection Subject: In-Car Dynomometers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu For anyone interested in in-car dynos you should check out the January 1990 issue of Hot Rod Magazine (you do have years of back issues, don't you?). The article in there details the Banks Intertial Dynomometer. Due to various things, it was never released. It is a drag-horsepower dyno, giving you the real amount of HP your vehicle produces after factoring in frictional and air drag. The device is covered by a patent (4,603,582). There is a product on the market, but I can't remember the company that is producing it. It is out of Seattle, Wa, and is called Dyno-something-or-other. The prototype I have is 0-200MPH, 0-1000HP, and works well on my dinkly little 80HP 2.5l S-10 engine. I've also seen it in action in a 350HP Banks turbocharged Camaro. These dynos are different than the car-computers like the VC200. The VC200 measures time and distance I believe and do all of the calculations after the fact. With the inertial dyno you get realtime horsepower! If anyone is interested, I'll try to get the name and address of the company who is currently producing the dynos. Or, if you have an accurate enough accelerometer, you could probably figure out how to roll your own (1/100 of a G would probably work, 1/1000 of a G acceleration accuracy is probably best). Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing." | PGP Key and .plan -- President Thomas Jefferson | email Subj: blane-info ============================================================================= From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 11:52:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA16375; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:50:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA16361; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:50:04 -0400 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA202541796; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:49:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:49:56 -0400 Message-Id: <950811074953_52515643@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I would really like to know more about this Dyno, and what product is on the market. Please let us know what you find. Thanks, -Bonn From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 15:19:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA17117; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:14:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA17103; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:14:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199508111514.LAA17103@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA037344039; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:13:59 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:13:58 EDT In-Reply-To: ; from "Brian Lane" at Aug 10, 95 10:11 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ These dynos are different than the car-computers like the VC200. The ~ VC200 measures time and distance I believe and do all of the calculations ~ after the fact. With the inertial dyno you get realtime horsepower! ~ The VC200 has an internal accelerometer, so it also uses inertial forces to compute HP. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 19:39:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA18380; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 19:36:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA18366; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:36:37 -0400 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16115; Fri, 11 Aug 95 12:34:19 PDT Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HTY3U5QNGG007C19@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950811153313.352; 11 Aug 95 15:35:54 +0500 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:30:06 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: Sensor Specifications To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On 8-10, Thomas Ennis Bragg Jr wrote: > > Where would I be able to find technical specifications on GM sensors > like voltage and current levels, etc? > > I need this info for TPS, CTS, MAP, MAT, O2 from an 87 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo. > But any info would help out. > > Thanks > > Ennis > -- > Ennis Bragg > gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu > The following describe the sensors on my '87 Fiero, from other experience with GM products I would expect these ranges to be typical of most product from GM. TPS - This is a potentiometer between gnd and +5 volts. Output ranges from ~0 at closed-throttle to ~5v at WOT. Closed throttle offset from 0 is not critical as the ECM "learns" where closed throttle is. CTS and MAT - These are voltage outputs from bridges in which a negative-tempco thermistor is pulled up to +5 volts. Resistance of the thermistor ranges from hundreds of k-ohms in the cold to hundreds of ohms in the hot. to complicate matters, my Fiero switches the value of the pullup resistance once the coolant temperature exceeds about 100 degrees to widen the temperature range where the bridge scale factor (volts/degree) is large enough to use. Output is VERY nonlinear, but so what, I assuem the ECM has a look-up table. I have calibrated the sensors on my Fiero and can give you some details if you're interested. MAP - Outputs a signal which ranges from~0 to ~+5 volts. Pontiac has used (at least) two different MAP processors in the past, for one 0 volts corresponds to atmospheric pressure, in the other ~5 volts correpsonds to atmosphere. My Fiero uses the second type MAT processor. O2 - A very high impedance source that ranges from ~-0 volt when lean to ~1 volt when rich. Output characteristic makes "step" transition from 0 to 1 volt at ~stoichiometric ratio. Look at the archive for this mail list for thorough, and good, discussion of the O2 sensor operation. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 11 20:12:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA18589; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 20:10:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA18575; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:10:31 -0400 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id QAA25481; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:10:17 -0400 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id QAA10223; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:10:16 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA21195; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:09:52 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA205731463; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:04:23 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 15:47:11 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Grounds, Shielding, etc... To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Grant Beattie wrote: >I need your expert advice on how to best shield electronics from >noise/vibration generated in a vehicle so that the electronics can do it's >job best. >... >For what it's worth my preliminary tests were less than stunning with the >CPU resetting itself intermittently. For the time being I had housed it >in an unshielded plastic case and I think the ignition noise from the >heathen Briggs 5hp motor overwhelmed it. There are a number of ways to skin this cat. I'll present one I've used successfully in the past. 1. Put the electronics in a metal box that is fully sealed. 2. ALL wires that go through the box MUST pass through their own feedthrough bypass capacitors (2,000pF per cap is about what you want). Check out Murata-Erie or Spectrum Electronics. These companies make DB-25, -15, etc. connectors with feedthroughs built in, although they can be expensive. You can also get discrete feedthrough caps from Murata. 3. [Ideal, but not necessary with the above] CPU board should have an extensive ground plane. >Should my cpu "box" be grounded to >the chassis of the vehicle or should it be isolated? I grounded my box to the '-' terminal on the battery. The battery was mounted to the chassis with insulating rubber standoffs. The chassis and engine were also connected to battery '-'. All sensors and actuators got ground from the box, though, not the chassis or engine. This prevented ground loops. >Should various >sensors have metal shielding around their cabling? With the setup just mentioned, I didn't need shielding. I found it useful, though, to put metal braid over important wires for physical protection. >One example I can give you is that I have a magnet and hall sensor on the >rear (solid for karts) axle. This requires me to run +5v, Gnd and signal >about 3' from the CPU to the sensor. I'm using a cable which has a >ground shield and two inner conductors on which I'm placing +5v and >signal. There is no connection whatsoever between this ground and the >chassis. Is this good or evil? Should work just fine, I did the same thing. I've done fiber optics, too, which worked great but are problematic for analog signals. I went through hell working on this problem the first time I encountered it. If you have any wire coming through the wall of the box that isn't bypassed right at the wall, it will rebroadcast the RF inside the box before it gets to a capacitor. The OEM's bring their wires in, send them to the board, and then every pin has a surface mount cap on the other side of the board between that pin and ground. Then they put a metal shield over the exposed pins and put the whole thing in an aluminum box. The value of the cap is about 1,000pF and is of N7R material if I recall correctly. It is still important that there is no line of sight path between any of the wires coming in and any traces or chips on the board. Make sure your software gracefully handles resets nonetheless. Problem is, you're probably seeing conditions where the processor just goes off into space and the watchdog can't even bring it back. The feedthrough caps will solve this problem. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Aug 12 03:37:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA19542; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 03:24:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.computek.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA19528; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 23:24:19 -0400 Message-ID: <9508112226.AA22684@ns1.computek.net> Received: from computek.net by ns1.computek.net; Fri, 11 Aug 95 22:26 CDT X-Sender: ricrain@computek.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 22:21:20 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: ricrain@computek.net (Ric Rainbolt) Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I would really like to know more about this Dyno, and what product is on the >market. Please let us know what you find. > At the risk of getting flamed, I would like to say "me too". I would like to include a 3-axis acceleromter circuit on the ECU I'm currently designing and it would be nice to exploit them as much as possible. Someone mentioned having worked out the math for G's <--> HP (given mass and time, I guess) and I would definately like to see that math, if possible. Thanks, Ric Rainbolt ricrain@computek.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 13 18:29:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00418; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 18:10:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00404; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:10:33 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #14) id m0shhTx-000CwuC; Sun, 13 Aug 95 13:09 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers To: DIY_EFI Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 13:09:57 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508111514.LAA17103@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "Bruce Bowling" at Aug 11, 95 11:13:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 761 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Bowling writes: > > ~ These dynos are different than the car-computers like the VC200. The > ~ VC200 measures time and distance I believe and do all of the calculations > ~ after the fact. With the inertial dyno you get realtime horsepower! > ~ > The VC200 has an internal accelerometer, so it also uses inertial forces > to compute HP. The Banks DynaFact had an external accelerometer and also an external speed input (had it hooked to the speedo pulse generator on my truck). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 14 12:54:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02624; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:51:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gw2.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02610; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:51:33 -0400 Received: from ihgp.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA02986; Mon, 14 Aug 95 08:50:40 EDT Received: from ihgp1.ih.att.com by ihgp.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA10668; Mon, 14 Aug 95 07:49:20 CDT Received: by ihgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA03258; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 07:49:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 07:49:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9508141249.AA03258@ihgp1.ih.att.com> From: bohdan@ihgp.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sensor Specifications Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >The following describe the sensors on my '87 Fiero, from other >experience with GM products I would expect these ranges to be >typical of most product from GM. > >TPS - This is a potentiometer between gnd and +5 volts. Output >ranges from ~0 at closed-throttle to ~5v at WOT. Closed throttle >offset from 0 is not critical as the ECM "learns" where closed >throttle is. > Close, but not quite. Closed throttle voltage is around 0.5 to 0.6 volt. Anything lower than this will set a diagnostic trouble code ("TPS shorted to ground"). >CTS and MAT - These are voltage outputs from bridges in which a >negative-tempco thermistor is pulled up to +5 volts. Resistance of >the thermistor ranges from hundreds of k-ohms in the cold to hundreds >of ohms in the hot. to complicate matters, my Fiero switches the >value of the pullup resistance once the coolant temperature exceeds >about 100 degrees to widen the temperature range where the bridge >scale factor (volts/degree) is large enough to use. Output is VERY >nonlinear, but so what, I assuem the ECM has a look-up table. I have >calibrated the sensors on my Fiero and can give you some details if >you're interested. > This is done to limit analog-to-digital converter quantization error (similar to mu-law and A-law companding in telecommunications). >MAP - Outputs a signal which ranges from~0 to ~+5 volts. Pontiac has >used (at least) two different MAP processors in the past, for one 0 >volts corresponds to atmospheric pressure, in the other ~5 volts >correpsonds to atmosphere. My Fiero uses the second type MAT >processor. Partially correct. ALL GM MAP sensors which are not used with a turbocharged engine will output something close to 5 volts at atmospheric pressure. If used with a turbocharged engine, a different MAP sensor is used -- its output is 2.5 volts at "atmospheric" pressure. The second type of sensor you're referring to has two vacuum hose connections to it: atmosphere and intake manifold; the output corresponds to the difference between the two pressure signals. I don't remember its name right now (MUCH too early in the morning). > >O2 - A very high impedance source that ranges from ~-0 volt when lean >to ~1 volt when rich. Output characteristic makes "step" transition >from 0 to 1 volt at ~stoichiometric ratio. Look at the archive for >this mail list for thorough, and good, discussion of the O2 sensor >operation. > > >John > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 14 13:27:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02716; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:26:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02702; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:26:25 -0400 From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA0852; Mon, 14 Aug 95 09:25:49 -0700 Message-Id: <9508141625.AA0852@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 09:21:16 EST To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Didn't someone just come out with a single chip accelerometer that can > > be programmed to give one of two axes or rotational acceleration. As > > I recall the chip was supposed to cost about $9. > > I'd be *very* interested in this chip if anyone knows anything about it. > > -Jody I finally found the data sheet. Amp's ACH-04-08 is a 3-axis accelerometer (y-axis, z-axis, and rotational acceleration around z-axis) that is fully programmable. You can read only 1 axis at a time in either digital or analog format. y-axis sensitivity is 1.5 mV/g, z-axis is 12 mV/g, and rotational is 0.3 mV/rad/s^2. I don't have time to quote the entire data sheet but I think is has programmable gain (ie. ranges). I was wrong about the price: it is $30 (maybe I was thinking $10 per axis?). Oh yeah, this data sheet and price is preliminary. -tim From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 14 15:13:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA02940; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 15:11:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from axl01it.ntc.nokia.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02926; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:11:39 -0400 Received: from ntcite01es.ntc.nokia.com (ms-smtp-gw.tele.nokia.fi [131.228.138.80]) by axl01it.ntc.nokia.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21021 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:09:24 +0300 Received: by ntcite01es.ntc.nokia.com with Microsoft Mail id <302F75C3@ntcite01es.ntc.nokia.com>; Mon, 14 Aug 95 18:11:47 eet From: Haynes David To: DIY_EFI Subject: Weber Injection systems Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 16:05:00 eet Message-ID: <302F75C3@ntcite01es.ntc.nokia.com> Encoding: 30 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone have any info, or know where I can find it, on the Weber / Marelli injection system known as IAW? It is used (apparently) on Lancia Delta twin cams and Ford Sierra Cosworths as well as some Ferrari and Maserati models. I have recently acquired a Lancia Delta (not turbo) which has a problem where the engine idle will rise to around 2500rpm. It is probably not directly an idle problem as the car will not run properly at any other rpms while under load. It is an intermittent problem which does not seem to be brought on by any specific circumstance although it is worse (ie more common) during hot weather. Has anyone known or heard of similar problems. Workshop manuals for Deltas are only available from Lancia at huge cost (unless YOU know different?) I'm fairly familiar with Bosch injection / management but I cant find any info on this system, which measures manifold pressure and temperature to calculate fuelling. If there is another vehicle with a similar system that would be useful as I might be able to get a manual or more info for that. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post my question as Im new to this list, but I hope someone has some useful info for me! Thanks in anticipation Dave H. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 14 23:46:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA04604; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:43:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eskinews.eskimo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA04590; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 19:43:43 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by eskinews.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id QAA14285 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:43:24 -0700 Received: (from blane@localhost) by guetech.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA17533; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:32:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Lane To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers In-Reply-To: <9508112226.AA22684@ns1.computek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Ric Rainbolt wrote: > At the risk of getting flamed, I would like to say "me too". I would like > to include a 3-axis acceleromter circuit on the ECU I'm currently designing > and it would be nice to exploit them as much as possible. Someone mentioned > having worked out the math for G's <--> HP (given mass and time, I guess) > and I would definately like to see that math, if possible. Well the basic HP formula is: Weight(in lbs) x Acceleration(in Gees) x Speed (in MPH) ------------------------------------------------------- 375 The Auto Math handbook is also useful for various formulas. Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing." | PGP Key and .plan -- President Thomas Jefferson | email Subj: blane-info ============================================================================= From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 15 13:42:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA06046; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:39:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from taisun1.taiu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06032; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:39:39 -0400 Received: by taisun1.taiu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA16841; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 08:39:28 -0500 From: kaden00@taiu.edu (Nelson David E) Message-Id: <9508151339.AA16841@taisun1.taiu.edu> Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers...math! To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 08:39:28 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lane" at Aug 14, 95 04:32:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3658 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At one time, Brian Lane said: > > On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Ric Rainbolt wrote: > > > At the risk of getting flamed, I would like to say "me too". I would like > > to include a 3-axis acceleromter circuit on the ECU I'm currently designing > > and it would be nice to exploit them as much as possible. Someone mentioned > > having worked out the math for G's <--> HP (given mass and time, I guess) > > and I would definately like to see that math, if possible. > > Well the basic HP formula is: > > Weight(in lbs) x Acceleration(in Gees) x Speed (in MPH) > ------------------------------------------------------- > 375 > > The Auto Math handbook is also useful for various formulas. > > Brian What a conincidence, I worked out the eq. for mass, accel., dist, time last night. Here's the run down: Force=Mass*Accel which has units Newtons => ((Kg)(m))/s^2 Work =Force*Dist which has units NewtonMeters => ((Kg)(m^2))/s^2 Power=Work/Time which has units NewtonMeters/Second => ((Kg)(m^2))/s^3 Power also has units of Joules/Second => Watts Joule's units are ((Kg)(m^2))/s^2 Taking the units for Power=Work/Time, and subst. in Joules, we end up with Joules/Second which is what we are after. 1 HP = 746 Watts. HP = Mass*Accel*Distance/(Seconds*746) Since we are dealing with power, all we need to do is add/subtract the relavent powers. Define "+" power as "stuff to make the car go" and "-" power as the "stuff that makes us not go as fast as we would really want". Granted, I know there will be drag coeff., rolling resistance, frictions etc. adding to the negative power. But I figure that wind resistance is the greater contributor to this at least above 35-40 mph. Any comments out there on that one? Ok, so here goes, set up your little accelerometer/cpu. I was thinking of triggering off the lead weight of the rim (assuming only one was there) that way I could get the distance. Now here is a thought, measure the change of velocity of the lead weight and we have acceleration...hmmmmm. Some aftermarket cruise controls place a magnet on the drive shaft, I don't see why that can't be used, just use their sensor/magnet setup. First I'd take the vehicle up to, say, 100 mph, set it in neutral and start logging data every .5-1 second. This will give you the HP required, "-", to maintain that speed. Do this two times, once in the wind and once with the wind and average them. (Mayby a couple of times would be better). BTW, doing this while a weather system is coming in probably isn't the best idea either. Now do some time trials with the vehicle in one gear. I guess 2nd or 3rd and collect the data. Now, HPwheel(mph)=HPaccel(mph)-HPdecel(mph). The HPdecel is gathered from the first run from 100 -> 20 mph. Once we have the numbers and knowing the tranny/transaxle/rear axle ratios we can calc. the HP vs. RPM and thus torque vs. RPM. HP=Torque*RPM/5150 (roughly). Other thoughts, I don't know how automatics would react/work with this setup. Don't spin your tires when you punch it (although the numbers would look GREAT!). I don't know how much tires "grow" during highway speeds. If you make any body changes, drag. coef could be looked at also. Remember, the units above are in SI units not the good 'ol English units. And most of all, don't get a ticket :). Any comments/suggestions/laughter out there???? -- David /\/elson D-Nelson@taiu.edu Disclaimer: The above thoughts/feelings do not necessarily represent those of my employer nor my other personalities. ****** Two wrongs don't make a right, but three do! ****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 15 13:55:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA06089; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:54:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06075; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:54:47 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA21517; Tue, 15 Aug 95 09:54:36 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 09:54:36 EDT Message-Id: <9508151354.AA21517@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: In-Car Dynomometers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On the thread of In-Car Dyno's: Has anyone heard of one called a G-WIZ, It sounds like the Vericom. cut from the corvette list: >In the latest edition of Mid-America's Limited Edition newsletter they >have a new item called the G-Wiz that, quoting from the ad, >"has 5 vital measurements in a device smaller than a pack of smokes" >"With a precision accelerometer and RISC processor records your lateral >G-force, best 1/4 mile, 0-60 times, braking power, and HP rating" >This is item# T17005 and sells for $99.95. The units are not going be available until october. Mid America's phone number 1-800-500-8388. Anyone know who the manufacturer of the G-WIZ is. Later Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 15 19:28:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA07269; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 19:24:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA07255; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:24:19 -0400 From: ALIPPER@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA110544649; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:24:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:24:09 -0400 Message-Id: <950815152311_75250336@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Sensor Specifications Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've got pretty specific numbers on the sensors GM used in their speed-density TBI systems. I'll include them in the data which I'm putting together in my "EFI from an AT plug-in bus board" files. - Al - From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 16 02:03:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA18177; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:00:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from jerboa.devetwa.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA18159; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:00:19 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by jerboa.devetwa.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA10328 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:05:48 +0800 Received: from wpsmtp.devetwa.edu.au(163.232.4.1) by jerboa via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010324; Wed Aug 16 10:05:22 1995 Received: from WATafe-Message_Server by wpsmtp.devetwa.edu.au with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 09:58:07 +0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:42:08 +0800 From: Danny Wallace To: DIY_EFI Subject: Build or Buy? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, Please excuse if this has been discussed - just point me to the archives. I'm in the early stages of my EFI project and am trying to decide whether to start completely from scratch with cct design and board layout OR buy a commercial microController card - probably using a 8051. Does anybody have any suggestions or warnings about trying to build from scratch. Is it a waste of time? I've never layed out a micro processor/controller board so am not sure if the layout will be so critical that timings etc will be a nightmare? If anybody has done their own PC board - what method did you use - photographic, just provide the layout to a commercial firm (this seems expensive for prototypes or one offs). Any thoughts most appreciated.. Danny Perth, Western Australia wallad@devetwa.edu.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 16 04:50:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA19206; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 04:47:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA19192; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 00:47:52 -0400 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id OAA17358; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 14:47:25 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199508160447.OAA17358@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: spark ignition engines short course WWW (fwd) To: DIY_EFI (DIY_EFI ) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 14:47:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: ndg@mame.mu.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1019 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu For those interested in combustion and emissions of spark ignition engines: The Advanced Engineering Centre for Manufacturing in conjunction with the Department of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, University of Melbourne and the Department of Fuel and Energy, University of Leeds are presenting a 3-day professional development short course on SPARK IGNITION ENGINE EMISSIONS (18-20 September). For full details and registration information see the brochure at the URL: http://sungear.mame.mu.oz.au/~ndg/95siee.html Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 16 05:22:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA19362; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:20:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA19348; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 01:20:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id RAA15935; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:08:00 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199508160508.RAA15935@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Build or Buy? To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:07:59 +1200 (NZST) In-Reply-To: from "Danny Wallace" at Aug 15, 95 09:42:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1160 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It really depends on where you get your most satisfaction. If you get more "I built that" feelings from going through the schematic capture -> PCB -> smoke test, then you should persue it. That's my opinion, anyway. After all, it's supposed to be a hobby. If you are more interested in getting something going or writing software then you can compare the time to design your own board with the time that the car still isn't on the road. If you are a bit reluctant about the hardware side, I would try to get on the EFI332 bandwagon if it's not too late. That way you get a PCB already made and you only have to solder bits on. You also have other people at a similar stage in development with varying areas of expertise all on a mailing list. If you decide to do your own board, you are pretty safe with something around the speed of the 8051 but if you intend going to something faster, a guiding hand can be very helpful if it's newto you. A rough guide for proto PCB's is about NZ$200 (these days about the same in AU$ :-) for an A4 glass board with plated holes plus another $50 or so for plotting. That's without solder mask or silkscreen, BTW. Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 16 09:13:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA00976; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 09:10:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA00962; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:10:06 -0400 Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:09:30 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <20525-0@humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk>; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:49:09 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:49:07 +0100 (BST) From: "n.mulvana" X-Sender: eesnm@humus To: DIY_EFI cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Build or Buy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Danny Wallace wrote: > Hi all, > Please excuse if this has been discussed - just point me to the > archives. > I'm in the early stages of my EFI project and am trying to decide > whether to start completely from scratch with cct design and > board layout OR buy a commercial microController card - probably > using a 8051. Hi, I have been involved in a EFI related project using the 8051 family of microcontrollers which I started from scratch so I thought I would just put my two pennyworth in. my project was actually a fuel computer but some points are relevant! It all depends on how 'deep' you are prepared to go with the project as to whether you buy commercial units or not, there is agreat sense of achievement to be had in designing from the ground upwards, but if most of your experience is in software programming with little hardware design you will probably be better buying a commercial unit. > Does anybody have any suggestions or warnings about trying to > build from scratch. Is it a waste of time? I've never layed out > a micro processor/controller board so am not sure if the layout > will be so critical that timings etc will be a nightmare? If in my opinion it is not a waste of time but if you have not done it before,it is quite task to produce a board for a large project, you could cut quite a lot of the hard work out by using a chip with built-in A to D such as the philips 80C552 or the one I used was the siemens 80C537, the layout should not be too critical - try to keep the crystal and associated capacitors close to the microcontroller and use plenty of decoupling on addressing chips etc., > anybody has done their own PC board - what method did you use - > photographic, just provide the layout to a commercial firm (this > seems expensive for prototypes or one offs). Any thoughts most > appreciated.. I made my own PC board using a CAD package and some photgraphic equipment but I am in the fortunate position that we make PCB's at work - the only thing I can suggest is to talk to local schools/colleges/universitys and ask if the have the equipment to produce a one-off PCB (for a small fee that is) as you are correct in stating a commercial firm would be very expensive for a one off. hope this helps in some way if you need any more info regarding the above points feel free to email me. > Danny > Perth, Western Australia > wallad@devetwa.edu.au > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 00:18:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA09234; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:15:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bock.ucs.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA09220; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:15:39 -0400 Received: from gpu3.srv.ualberta.ca by bock.ucs.ualberta.ca with ESMTP (8.6.5/UA3.0.0June95) id SAA07881 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:24 -0600 Received: (from mbeaubie@localhost) by gpu3.srv.ualberta.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA96904; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:23 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Matthew Beaubien X-Sender: mbeaubie@gpu3.srv.ualberta.ca To: DIY_EFI Subject: Rich/lean indicator. In-Reply-To: <199508160508.RAA15935@kcbbs.gen.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I remember someone saying a little while ago that he had built a simple circuit which would indicate a rich/lean condition depending on the voltage output of the O2 sensor. Were the plans ever disclosed? Thanks. Matt. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 02:11:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA09568; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 02:09:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09554; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:09:08 -0400 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA165905338; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:08:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:08:58 -0400 Message-Id: <950816220857_56217177@aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Build or Buy? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You mention EFI332 hardware for fuel injection. Where can I find more information on this, and where can it be bought? (Sorry, I'm quite a novice at this). -Bonn From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 02:41:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA09763; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 02:39:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09749; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:39:47 -0400 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (gt9803a@acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA20709 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:39:36 -0400 From: gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu (Ennis Bragg) Received: (gt9803a@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA18674 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:39:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199508170239.WAA18674@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Let's Talk ALGORITHMS To: DIY_EFI (EFI List) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:39:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1111 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ok. This info is from Ronald Jurgen's "Automotive Electronics Handbook" This book is published by McGraw-Hill.ISBN 0-07-033189-8 It is a compilation from various sources. Chapter 4 is on flow sensors and was written by Robert E. Bicking of Honeywell, Micro Switch Division. This is the equation Bicking gives for calculating Mass Flow Rate using speed-density. Known V = Per-cylinder Nominal Displacement Known Ra = Gas Constant of Air Measured RPM = Engine Speed Measured Ta = Intake Air Temperature Measured P = Intake Manifold Pressure n = Volumetric Effieciency Calculated Ma = Mass Flow Rate Ma = (RPM)*V*n*P --------- (Ra)*(Ta) Here are questions I have. 1) What is meant by the Gas Constant of Air? 2) How does one determine volumetric efficiency? 3) Once this equation is worked out, you have a good starting point to derive a base pulse width, Right? Now how do you factor in things like Throttle Position Sensor, and Coolant Temperature Sensor? All help is greatly appreciated as always. Thanks Ennis -- Ennis Bragg gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 02:54:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA09847; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 02:51:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from latcs1.lat.oz.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09833; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:51:24 -0400 From: kozuhia@latcs1.lat.oz.au Received: from latcs2.lat.oz.au by latcs1.lat.oz.au (8.6.10/1.34) id MAA15641; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:50:49 +1000 Message-Id: <199508170250.MAA26798@latcs2.lat.oz.au> Subject: Re: Rich/lean indicator. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Beaubien" at Aug 16, 95 06:15:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 278 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I remember someone saying a little while ago that he had built a simple > circuit which would indicate a rich/lean condition depending on the > voltage output of the O2 sensor. Were the plans ever disclosed? > > Thanks. > > > Matt. > yeah.. were they?? Ivan -- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 04:33:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA10246; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:32:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA10232; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:31:59 -0400 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id XAA24660 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:31:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:31:49 -0500 From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199508170431.XAA24660@eagle.natinst.com> To: diy_efi Subject: algorithms Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >This is the equation Bicking gives for calculating Mass Flow Rate using >speed-density. > >Known V = Per-cylinder Nominal Displacement >Known Ra = Gas Constant of Air >Measured RPM = Engine Speed >Measured Ta = Intake Air Temperature >Measured P = Intake Manifold Pressure > n = Volumetric Effieciency >Calculated Ma = Mass Flow Rate > > > Ma = (RPM)*V*n*P > --------- > (Ra)*(Ta) > >Here are questions I have. > >1) What is meant by the Gas Constant of Air? > >2) How does one determine volumetric efficiency? > >3) Once this equation is worked out, you have a good > starting point to derive a base pulse width, Right? > Now how do you factor in things like Throttle > Position Sensor, and Coolant Temperature Sensor? > I believe that Ra is most likely the ideal gas constant. A couple of papers SAE 93085? "Transient A/F Ratio Errors in Conventional SI Engine Control", SAE 900616 "Mean Value Modelling of Spark Ignition Engines " give a good description including mathematical equations for the mass flow as a function of throttle position, manifold pressure and rpm. In these equations volumetric efficiency is a quadratic function of rpm and a linear function of P. In a earlier post I tried to describe my best guess on how one might be able to estimate the various constants in these equations for a given engine. I don't know how practical or even understandable it is but if you'd like I could find a copy pretty easy. mike also From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 04:53:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA10332; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:51:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA10318; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:51:57 -0400 Received: from oak.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA12409; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:54:22 -0400 Received: by oak.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA00412; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:50:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Valentine To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Rich/lean indicator. In-Reply-To: <199508170250.MAA26798@latcs2.lat.oz.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I remember someone saying a little while ago that he had built a simple > > circuit which would indicate a rich/lean condition depending on the > > voltage output of the O2 sensor. Were the plans ever disclosed? > yeah.. were they?? That would be me. 8^) I'll try and get them out soon, but been to busy with work to write up something. I don't have any software to lay out a circuit with, can someone throw it in so it could be put on the web page? It's only 1 chip and 10 led's... --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@liii.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 05:15:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA10407; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 05:14:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA10393; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:14:32 -0400 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id WAA09725 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:14:16 -0700 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:14:15 UTC-0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:14:15 UTC-0700 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950816221415] Content-Identifier: 3196 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <950816220857_56217177@aol.com> Message-ID: <"3196*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: Build or Buy? MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu The EFI332 web page is "http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/efi332.html". There is also a mailing list you can get on by sending a message to "Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" with the following command in the body of the message "subscribe efi332." We are in the midst of developing the processor board and software development system. --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 05:20:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA10447; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 05:20:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA10433; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:20:03 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11939; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:22:30 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22289; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:16:43 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:08:15 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Let's Talk ALGORITHMS To: Ennis Bragg Cc: EFI List In-Reply-To: <199508170239.WAA18674@acmex.gatech.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Ennis Bragg wrote: > 1) What is meant by the Gas Constant of Air? R == the universal gas constant (tweaked for the mixed gas air) see any decent physics/chem bible ... > 2) How does one determine volumetric efficiency? Experimentally, generally Ve = f(MAP,rpm) It is then supposedly mappable to an EQUATION ... i.e. no lookup table needed, all fits nicely in the eqn ... VE = K1(rpm)^2 + K2(rpm) + K3 +K4(MAP) As someone (sorry, forgot whom .. maybe mike?) pointed out earlier > 3) Once this equation is worked out, you have a good > starting point to derive a base pulse width, Right? > Now how do you factor in things like Throttle > Position Sensor, and Coolant Temperature Sensor? Once you know Mass Air Flow .. or Q ... (going to BOSCH mode ;) Load (Tl) = Q/(Ki*rpm) Where Load is the BASE FUEL INJECTOR PULSE WIDTH for stoich in ms. (This is the almighty secret of BOSCH Motronic :) and Ki is computed from the flow rate of injectors to make the injection quantity per 2 revs (per cycle) perfectly stoich. in a perfect world From there ... Ti = (Tl * magic factors) + BVolt correction The REAL injection time is based on ideal multiplied by the various enriching and enleaning factors (like accel, decel, eng temp, etc) and then lastly we add the Batt. Volt. correction for slower injection opening at lower voltages .. Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 13:10:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA11348; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:06:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.nsc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11334; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:06:24 -0400 Received: from nsc.nsc.com by gatekeeper.nsc.com (5.65/fma-120691) with SMTP; id AA08826 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 95 06:06:13 -0700 Received: from gpo.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.65/1.34) with SMTP id AA14569 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 95 06:06:11 -0700 Received: from SPF.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by gpo.nsc.com (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA07226; Thu, 17 Aug 95 06:02:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 06:02:50 -0700 Message-Id: <9508171302.AA07226@gpo.nsc.com> From: dmorrill%spf.dnet@gpo.nsc.com (DAVE MORRILL HPL DESIGN ENG 207-775-8574) To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu"%GPO.dnet@gpo.nsc.com Cc: DMORRILL@gpo.nsc.com Subject: O2 sensor led meter Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu A bunch of people have expressed interest in a simple O2 meter, the chip you need is National Semiconductor's LM3914 (you can get this from Digikey and I think Radio Shack), 10 led's or one of the LED arrays that you can also get from the Shack or Digikey, and a couple of resistors. You can cascade two of them if you want more display range. Check National's Linear Application Specific IC's databook. I would be willing to scan in the schematic and give some tips on how to hook this up, wld poscript format be best? Maybe post it on diy_efi... It will take me a couple of days to get this done. Someone needs to give me the typical O2 sensor ranges, I think it is from 0v to 1 with 0.5 being stoic? It's easy to set the display range, the datasheet goes into much detail on how to do this. Best, Dave. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 13:27:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA11478; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:24:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11464; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:24:07 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA01977 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:23:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199508171323.AA01977@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:23:55 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:23:55 -0400 To: DIY_EFI Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Let's Talk ALGORITHMS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 95 22:39:35 EDT." <199508170239.WAA18674@acmex.gatech.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 09:23:52 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > This is the equation Bicking gives for calculating Mass Flow Rate using > speed-density. > > Known V = Per-cylinder Nominal Displacement > Known Ra = Gas Constant of Air > Measured RPM = Engine Speed > Measured Ta = Intake Air Temperature > Measured P = Intake Manifold Pressure > n = Volumetric Effieciency > Calculated Ma = Mass Flow Rate > > > Ma = (RPM)*V*n*P > --------- > (Ra)*(Ta) > Two comments: a) There's a "2" missing in this equation if it's for a four stroke engine. There are 2 revolutions per cycle (i.e. 2 revs per V displacement). Beware of units trouble. b) This will give the flow rate per cylinder (as opposed to total engine flow). > Here are questions I have. > > 1) What is meant by the Gas Constant of Air? Just thought I'd toss in the numbers I have at my desk. These are from Heywood's Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals. _ R = universal gas constant = 8.3143 J/(mole K) Ra = gas constant for air _ = R/M (where M = molecular mass of air) 8.3143 J mole = ---------------------- = 0.287 J/(kg K) mole K 28.962 kg --- Anthony Tsakiris The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 14:23:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA12205; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:19:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA12191; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:19:17 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167681-3>; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:20:03 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03328; Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:12:00 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003324; Thu Aug 17 10:11:54 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17673; Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:17:17 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA06416; Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:09:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:09:41 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508171409.AA06416@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: algorithms Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > In these equations volumetric > efficiency is a quadratic function of rpm and a linear function of P. In a > earlier post I tried to describe my best guess on how one might be able to > estimate the various constants in these equations for a given engine. I have the Engine Analyzer software and one of the outputs it produces is volumetric efficiency. My approach would be to let EA model my engine and let it compute a good starting point for VE. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 15:21:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00850; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:20:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00836; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:20:10 -0400 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:19:33 -0600 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:19:33 -0600 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:19:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199508171519.JAA06337@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter Cc: DMORRILL@gpo.nsc.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > A bunch of people have expressed interest in a simple O2 meter, the chip you > need is National Semiconductor's LM3914 (you can get this from Digikey and I > think Radio Shack), 10 led's or one of the LED arrays that you can also get > from the Shack or Digikey, and a couple of resistors. You can cascade two of > them if you want more display range. > > Check National's Linear Application Specific IC's databook. I would be willing > to scan in the schematic and give some tips on how to hook this up, wld > poscript format be best? Maybe post it on diy_efi... It will take me a couple > of days to get this done. Send me the postscript schematic and I'll add it to the diy_efi www pages. I'll also convert it to a GIF so people can see the pic incase their www browsers can't support PostScript. If anyone else has any projects they wish to share with the list, please send them to me as well. RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 71 Super Beetle (FOR SALE) fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca 84 320i From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 18:33:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00900; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:26:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00886; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:26:10 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA08419 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:25:59 -0400 Message-id: <9207783@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 17 Aug 95 14:26:00 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: Re: algorithms To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Where can I find out more about this EA software? I take it it's not public domain stuff... Thanks, Jeff Jefe@Dartmouth.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 19:00:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00884; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:54:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00870; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:54:18 -0400 Received: from [132.236.236.39] (CU-DIALUP-0129.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.236.39]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA24053 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:53:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:53:10 -0400 X-Sender: spm4@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: spm4@cornell.edu (Sean Magnuson) Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You hit the jackpot with that one Robert! K&N has marketed an air/fuel ratio monitor for several years that uses that very chip. I actually purchased one a couple of years ago for my 1986 FJ1200 motorcycle @ almost $200, decided to take it apart, and found that they tried to scrape the IC number off the chip. Using a simple dissecting microscope and some vegetable oil to clarify the number, I was able to identify the chip as good ol' LM 3914. Needless to say I was ticked-off at the fact that I was able to reproduce the exact circuit for less than $6, including all electronics except the 02 sensor (add an extra $30 for a single lead sensor). I thought of marketing the same product myself, since they apparently don't have any patent or license protection on the circuit ( I checked ), but "pirate" versions have been popping-up all over the place, so I decided against it. If you want to make your own 10 segment led meter or larger, all you need to do is follow the info. in the spec sheet from Digikey and pot it in colored epoxy or polyurethane for an attractive, weatherproof, completely functional unit. Total price ~$40 (including 02 sensor). Sean Magnuson Cornell University Motorcycle Performance Nut From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 20:10:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01184; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:00:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01170; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:00:46 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10946 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:59:46 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id NAA01084; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:00:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199508172000.NAA01084@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Manifold pressure, fuel mixture, and water injection Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:00:32 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Older military aircraft engines were rated for power output using avgas which was classed as having performance numbers of, for example '100-130' or '115-145'. I think this meant that using a baseline fuel, mixture, and manifold pressure (100 octane-stoichiometric-atmospheric?) it would develop baseline horsepower. Then the test fuel would be run with and power output would be measured at various levels of boost and various fuel/air mixtures to determine the power the engine could develop with lean and rich mixtures. In his book 'Turbochargers', Hugh MacInnes quotes from Sir Harry Ricardo's book 'The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine' of some work Ricardo did with water injection. Following is an excerpt: "In this case, running throughout at a speed of 2,500 RPM and with a compression ration of 7:1, the engine was run on an economical mixture,i.e. about 10% week, and supercharge applied to the first instance of detonation, which occured when the BMEP had reached 168 pounds per square inch. The mixture strength was then increased, step by step, and more supercharge applied until the same density of detonation was recorded; this process was continued until was reached at which no further enrichment was effective. In fact, after 60% excess fuel, not only did further enrichment have no effect but there was even some indication that it increased the tendency to detonate. A finely pulverized water spray was then delivered into the induction pipe which served to suppress detonation, in part by the intercooling it provided, and in part by the influence of steam as an anti-detonant, and so allow further supercharging. This was continued progressively, admitting just sufficient water at each stage to ward off detonation until a BMEP of 290 pounds per square inch was reached, which was found to be the limit of the dynamometer. At the same time, it was noted that, with the addition of water, the influence of steam as an anti-knock allowed the fuel/air ratio being much reduced. >From this curve .... it will be seen that under these operating conditions a limiting BMEP that could be reached with 87 octane petrol alone at an economical mixture strength was 168 psi. By enriching the mixture to the limit of usefulness, the BMEP could be stepped up to 237 psi. By the introduction of water, it could be further stepped up 290, and probably more; at the same time teh fuel/air ration could be reduced once again; in fact with water injection, no appreciable advantage was found from the use of an overrich fuel/air mixture. It will be noted that the total specific consumption of liquid, i.e. fuel plus water, is not so very much greater than when running on a very rich mixture of fuel alone." Has anyone done any research/published on this topic recently? Thx, Harmon From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 20:34:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01304; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:27:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pilot.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01290; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:27:37 -0400 Received: from verity.com (unknown-143-5.verity.com [192.187.143.5]) by pilot.net (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) with SMTP id NAA03234 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cato.verity.com by verity.com (4.1/SMI-4.1_Verity-Main-950202) id AA10914; Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:26:42 PDT From: neville@Verity.COM (Neville Newman) Received: (neville@localhost) by cato.verity.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01095 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:27:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:27:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199508172027.NAA01095@cato.verity.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu i have a 10 segment LED O2 meter that i purchased a couple of years ago for about $30 (not including O2 sensor). i can't remember the manufacturer, but i picked it up from JC Whitney on a tip from a fellow racer. It is packaged in a 2-1/8" round gauge, which i stuffed right into my dash. -neville From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 21:05:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01401; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:58:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01387; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:58:43 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167629-2>; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:59:24 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04559; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:51:41 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma004557; Thu Aug 17 16:51:19 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19909; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:56:41 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA06945; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:48:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:48:52 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508172048.AA06945@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: algorithms Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Engine Analyzer is a "software dyno" and is available from Summit Racing. You enter all the parameters for your engine (bore, stroke, intake valve size, cam advance, etc.) and it calculates the performance of the engine. By changing some parameters you can see what would have if you made a change to the engine. I am fairly impressed with Engine Analyzer (about $90), but if you want to go whole hog there is a Pro version for about $450. BTW: Stay away from "Desktop Dyno". I have both and DD is garbage. It is very simplistic, allows only a few parameters, and generally produces very suspisious results. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 21:06:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01422; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 21:00:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrow.wt.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01408; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:00:34 -0400 Received: (from prep@localhost) by yarrow.wt.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id FAA02855; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 05:00:25 +0800 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 05:00:25 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Message-Id: <199508172100.FAA02855@yarrow.wt.com.au> To: DIY_EFI In-reply-to: <199508172000.NAA01084@sequent.sequent.com> (message from Harmon Sommer on Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:00:32 PDT) Subject: Re: Manifold pressure, fuel mixture, and water injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Re PN and avgas. Numbers < 100 are octane ratings. > 100 are 'performance numbers'. The first is lean, the second rich. PN is the power as a % over 100 octane fuel. So a 150 PN fuel will give a 50% increase over 100 octane fuel. -- ~Paul prep@yarrow.wt.com.au +61 (09) 257-1001 prep@yarrow.wt.uwa.edu.au ( old ) 1 Crescent Rd, Kalamunda, West Aust 6076 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 21:34:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01681; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 21:27:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from interport.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01662; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:27:51 -0400 Received: (from fhd@localhost) by interport.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) id RAA23402 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:24:00 -0400 From: Frank Deutschmann Message-Id: <199508172124.RAA23402@interport.net> Subject: Re: Manifold pressure, fuel mixture, and water injection To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:24:00 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199508172000.NAA01084@sequent.sequent.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at Aug 17, 95 01:00:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 513 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Harmon Sommer sez: > Has anyone done any research/published on this topic [water injection] > recently? I read a few years ago about adding water directly to fuel by using an emulsifying agent (fancy term for ordinary liquid soap), and getting similar improvemnt -- the mechanism would be similar. But I have not seen more on this recently. -frank -- fhd@interport.net | Testing can show the presence of bugs, but not their 1 212 559 5534 | absence. 1 917 992 2248 | -- Dijkstra 1 718 746 7061 | From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 22:11:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01900; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:03:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01886; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:03:15 -0400 From: ALIPPER@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA284476984; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:03:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:03:04 -0400 Message-Id: <950817180300_77207456@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Build or Buy? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-08-15 22:41:23 EDT, you write: >I'm in the early stages of my EFI project and am trying to decide >whether to start completely from scratch with cct design and >board layout OR buy a commercial microController card - probably >using a 8051. >Does anybody have any suggestions or warnings about trying to >build from scratch. Is it a waste of time?... Danny, Having recently worked with both the build and buy alternatives, it really depends on how many you intend to make. If it's just a single unit - or even a few - then it is far easier (and cheaper in the long run) to buy a microcontroller unit and program it. Your choice of the 8051 as the CPU is a good one. Blue Earth Research (507) 387-4001 makes a number of excellent and reasonably priced units - they send out free catalogs. I've used their Micro-440e very successfully. As far as making your own PC boards goes, if you don't have access to a numerically controlled (NC) drilling machine, it's a lot of tedious work. Even if you do, the layoutitself will take a professional dozens of hours with a good CAD package. Then you have to do the etching itself...then, the debugging and hope that the original board is still usable... Anyway, you get the idea. Good luck. Al Lipper alipper@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 22:25:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01968; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:19:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01954; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:19:12 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-3 #7516) id <01HU6NAHDFCGG3N66U@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <3033C04E@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:19:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <3033C04E@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 43 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It's incredible how much the aftermarket suppliers can charge for simple electronics. I made one of these devices (also using the LM3914) for a friend after I saw similar products in catalogs. It took me about a day. So why hasn't someone come out with an inexpensive (around $300) generic EFI computer? The price for existing aftermarket EFI computers is around $1000. What's the parts cost for the EFI332? Maybe someone could take it to market when all of the bugs are worked out. This would be a great step for those of us looking for more performance. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com ---------- From: owner-diy_efi-outgoing To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. Date: Thursday, August 17, 1995 2:53PM You hit the jackpot with that one Robert! K&N has marketed an air/fuel ratio monitor for several years that uses that very chip. I actually purchased one a couple of years ago for my 1986 FJ1200 motorcycle @ almost $200, decided to take it apart, and found that they tried to scrape the IC number off the chip. Using a simple dissecting microscope and some vegetable oil to clarify the number, I was able to identify the chip as good ol' LM 3914. Needless to say I was ticked-off at the fact that I was able to reproduce the exact circuit for less than $6, including all electronics except the 02 sensor (add an extra $30 for a single lead sensor). I thought of marketing the same product myself, since they apparently don't have any patent or license protection on the circuit ( I checked ), but "pirate" versions have been popping-up all over the place, so I decided against it. If you want to make your own 10 segment led meter or larger, all you need to do is follow the info. in the spec sheet from Digikey and pot it in colored epoxy or polyurethane for an attractive, weatherproof, completely functional unit. Total price ~$40 (including 02 sensor). Sean Magnuson Cornell University Motorcycle Performance Nut From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 17 22:34:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA02013; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:28:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01999; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:28:30 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA17525 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:27:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id PAA26500; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:28:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199508172228.PAA26500@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Manifold pressure, fuel mixture, and water injection In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:24:00 PDT." <199508172124.RAA23402@interport.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:28:15 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Interesting. The first Napalm gels were soap and gasoline. Maybe there is a peacetime (and PC) use for the stuff after all. Thanks for your observation. Harmon From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 02:56:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02568; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:48:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02554; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:48:22 -0400 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA159684092; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:48:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:48:12 -0400 Message-Id: <950817224358_77417212@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bryan, There is definately a market opportunity here. Furthermore, the marketing of these units is fairly unsophisticated, so they could really be chewed up fast. -Bonn From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 04:48:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02798; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 04:42:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA02784; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 00:42:23 -0400 Received: from mechman.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA02464; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:41:56 +1000 Received: from MECHMAN/MERCMAIL by mechman.mm.swin.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 18 Aug 95 14:41:57 +1000 Received: from MERCMAIL by MECHMAN (Mercury 1.21); 18 Aug 95 14:41:42 +1000 From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:41:33 EST+10 Subject: Re: Build or Buy? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-Id: <19E205C0D5B@mechman.mm.swin.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: LotusM50@aol.com > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:08:58 -0400 > To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Build or Buy? > Reply-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > You mention EFI332 hardware for fuel injection. Where can I find more > information on this, and where can it be bought? (Sorry, I'm quite a novice > at this). > > -Bonn Info on the EFI332 project is at: http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html if you don't have WWW access join the EFI332 list the same way you joined DIY_EFI. You can order PCB's from AP circuits (Rod?) Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Address: CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Swinburne University Phone: +61 3 9214 8296 PO Box 218 Fax: +61 3 9819 4949 Hawthorn Victoria 3122 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/ Australia From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 05:19:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA02907; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 05:13:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA02893; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 01:12:48 -0400 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id RAA21955; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:00:49 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199508180500.RAA21955@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: algorithms To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:00:48 +1200 (NZST) In-Reply-To: <9508172048.AA06945@ivan.gallium.com> from "Michael F. Sargent" at Aug 17, 95 04:48:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 605 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Engine Analyzer is a "software dyno" and is available from Summit Racing. > You enter all the parameters for your engine (bore, stroke, intake valve > size, cam advance, etc.) and it calculates the performance of the engine. > By changing some parameters you can see what would have if you made a > change to the engine. I am fairly impressed with Engine Analyzer (about $90), > but if you want to go whole hog there is a Pro version for about $450. > Does this software know anything about sidevalve engines ? Does it have super / turbo charging included in the parameters you can enter ? Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 06:34:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA03011; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 06:27:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA02997; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:27:27 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id XAA23733 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:27:11 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id XAA00934; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:27:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:27:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI Subject: BMEP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It seems pretty typical for "tuned" turbo motors generate well over 300psi with good injection systems and intercoolers. Controlled Induction 302, a software package I have estimates 305.7 psi BMEP for a 156ci/4 with 8.5:1 cr and a 'mild' 18psi of boost. Engine Analizer Pro looks really cool, not only does it generate VE tables and take into account things like turbine efficiency, rocker arm stiffness, valve weight, dew point, valve spring friction but it will also estimate a base ingnition timing map. MK From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 09:29:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA03200; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:14:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA03186; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 05:14:13 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA01852; Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:15:37 +0200 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:15:37 +0200 Message-Id: <9508180915.AA01852@nomina.lu.se> X-Sender: akem-gsi@pop.lu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Basic Stamp as EFI? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hello out there Has anybody used BasicStamp I or II as an EFI??? Any hints would be appreciated.. Thanks in advance Georg Siotis E-Mail: Georg.Siotis@analykem.lu.se Lund University Chemical Center Analytical Chemistry Box 124 S-221 00 Lund Sweden Tel : +46-46-222 81 73 GSM : +46-708-95 37 63 GSMFax : +46-708-95 95 91 _ ,-~ | ________________ o==]___| | | \ \ |________________| /\ \ __ / _,-----._ ) | \ \. |_||/_-~ `. /() | /|]_|_____ |// \ | \/ /_-~ ~-_ //________________|| / //___________\ //__|______________| \____________/ //___/-\ \~-_ ((_________________/_-o___________/_//___/ /\,\ \ |__/( ((====)o===--~~ ( ( (o/) ) \ ``==' / \ `--' / `-.__,-' `-.__,-' From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 15:38:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04203; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:30:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04187; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:30:05 -0400 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (gt0035b@acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA19674 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:29:50 -0400 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer) Received: (gt0035b@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA06639 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:29:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199508181529.LAA06639@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:29:47 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <3033C04E@gismtpgate.gi.com> from "Zublin, Bryan" at Aug 17, 95 03:19:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1042 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Zublin, Bryan wrote > > So why hasn't someone come out with an inexpensive (around $300) generic EFI > computer? The price for existing aftermarket EFI computers is around $1000. > What's the parts cost for the EFI332? Maybe someone could take it to > market when all of the bugs are worked out. This would be a great step for > those of us looking for more performance. Computers require software and algorithms. This is where the cost comes from. I don't know what the EFi32 list has decided about the computer but the talk I saw was that it would be public domain and if someone wanted they could make a kit and charge for the parts but shouldn't look for a profit. Please let me know what the correct status is. Henry Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | 5? | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | 11 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 15:39:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04221; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:34:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04207; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:34:07 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167899-3>; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:34:54 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05747; Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:27:10 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma005745; Fri Aug 18 11:26:41 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25870; Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:31:56 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA08737; Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:23:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:23:31 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508181523.AA08737@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: algorithms Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Does this software know anything about sidevalve engines ? Doesn't ring a bell. What's a sidevalve engine? Flathead? In any case, there are flow parameters that you can tweak for the head and the manifolds, so you could probably make it work OK. > Does it have super / turbo charging included in the parameters you can > enter ? Yes. It allows fairly good selection of forced induction as well as nitrous. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 16:27:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04580; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:20:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA04562; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:20:17 -0400 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.10/8.6.9) id JAA17828 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:20:05 -0700 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 9:20:03 UTC-0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 9:20:03 UTC-0700 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950818092003] Content-Identifier: 3204 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <3033C04E@gismtpgate.gi.com> Message-ID: <"3204*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: O2 sensor and EFI332 Status MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > It's incredible how much the aftermarket suppliers can charge for simple > electronics. I made one of these devices (also using the LM3914) for a > friend after I saw similar products in catalogs. It took me about a day. You can get these O2 led meters through JC Whitney for almost nothing. > So why hasn't someone come out with an inexpensive (around $300) generic EFI > computer? The price for existing aftermarket EFI computers is around $1000. I think $1000 is reasonable when you look at the size of the market, the amount of support/hand-holding necessary and what it would cost to develop such a product commercially. > What's the parts cost for the EFI332? Maybe someone could take it to > market when all of the bugs are worked out. This would be a great step for > those of us looking for more performance. Although I haven't added up all the bits, the parts count is in the hundreds of dollars range. EFI332 is a fairly powerful EFI computer compared to what's out there in most cars and aftermarket systems. We chose a more expensive microcontroller (the MC68332) because we believed that the benefits of programming in a high-level language (C) and the availability of free development tools (GNU) outweighed the disadvantage of increased cost. There are many excellent 8051 variants that would work well at the heart of a VERY low-cost EFI systems if you wanted to program in assembler. < ... hopping on to my miniature soapbox ... > As for selling completed versions, we are aren't even close yet to having something somebody could sell, yet. The whole goal (at least in my mind) of the EFI332 project is to make the design of a fairly sophisticated engine control system with all the source code, schematics and development environment available for free (note that this isn't necessarily the same as public domain). We did this because we felt that the current aftermarket systems weren't offering good value and were very closed systems (ie. you'll never get their source code or run your own code on their box). That means it is both expensive and frustrating to set up an efi system to try something new from some SAE paper or the other. Personally, I don't outright object to the idea of somebody selling assembled EFI332 systems (not everyone wants to solder) as long as it was done in a fashion that benefitted the goals of the EFI332 project. Comments EFI332ers? --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 17:48:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05293; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:41:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05279; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 13:41:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199508181741.NAA05279@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA213967649; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 13:40:49 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: algorithms To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 13:40:48 EDT In-Reply-To: <199508180500.RAA21955@kcbbs.gen.nz>; from "Steve Baldwin" at Aug 18, 95 5:00 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ > ~ > Engine Analyzer is a "software dyno" and is available from Summit Racing. ~ > You enter all the parameters for your engine (bore, stroke, intake valve ~ > size, cam advance, etc.) and it calculates the performance of the engine. ~ > By changing some parameters you can see what would have if you made a ~ > change to the engine. I am fairly impressed with Engine Analyzer (about $90), ~ > but if you want to go whole hog there is a Pro version for about $450. ~ > The above programs are empirically-based, which will yield ballpark numbers and somewhat useful relative numbers for change evaluation. But everyone I have talked with indicates that they do not check accurately against dyno runs, to yield more real-world results require air-flow simulations which take many hours to compute (on a Cray). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 18 18:32:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA05676; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:25:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05662; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:25:48 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167620-3>; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:25:58 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06202; Fri, 18 Aug 95 14:18:15 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006200; Fri Aug 18 14:17:55 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27121; Fri, 18 Aug 95 14:23:10 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA09017; Fri, 18 Aug 95 14:14:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:14:36 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508181814.AA09017@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: algorithms Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > But everyone I have talked with indicates that they do not check > accurately against dyno runs, to yield more real-world results require > air-flow simulations which take many hours to compute (on a Cray). I haven't done a dyno vs PC test yet, but they claim +/- 15% for Engine Analyzer. EA does do an air-flow simulation, but I suspect that it is somewhat simplified. I don't know what EA Pro claims for accuracy. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Aug 19 18:42:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA01829; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 18:34:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA01815; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA24254 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:34:19 -0400 Message-id: <9233752@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 19 Aug 95 14:34:20 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: MAP To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Assuming that there is equal airflow to all cylinders, how is the output/usefulness of a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor used in a speed-density system affected if the sensor is placed in an intake runner as opposed to being in the plenum or near the throttle body(s)? I'm just concerned as to whether the airflow rate in a runner (being far greater than it would be in a region of capacitance like in the plenum) would affect the "static" pressure reading which is the useful number in estimating air density in the manifold. Please excuse the run-on sentences! Jeff Giberstein Dartmouth College Formula SAE Engine Group From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 20 11:27:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03422; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 11:20:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03408; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:20:47 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HUABD14DKW00009P@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 06:20:34 CDT Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 20:02:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Manifold pressure, fuel mixture, and water injection To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <161732.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> of an overrich fuel/air mixture. It will be noted that the total -> specific consumption of liquid, i.e. fuel plus water, is not so very -> much greater than when running on a very rich mixture of fuel alone." -> -> Has anyone done any research/published on this topic recently? Not that I'm aware of. I've been fortunate enough to read through Ricardo's book, which seems to have quite thoroughly covered the subject. You need to keep in mind that it takes a *LOT* of water when you're working with high boost. John DeArmond, the former moderator of the hotrod list, used to run over 30psi guage pressure on his turbocharged Datsun six. The car would empty a three gallon tank after a short session of spirited driving. He finally picked up some trash in the water pickup which resulted in a spectacular engine meltdown, complete with crankcase fire. I had the opportunity to examine the remains and it wasn't pretty. John was talking about rigging a circuit with a water flow sensor and boost sensor to cut the spark if the water flow was interrupted under load. 20/20 hindsight, . Water is very efficient for cooling the intake charge and as an anti-detonant, but if you are in a cold area, intend to run long distances under load (like a tow rig or motorhome), or run long races, a conventional intercooler might be the best solution. It won't freeze or run empty, anyway. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 20 11:27:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03438; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 11:20:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03424; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:20:56 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HUABD74BI800009P@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 06:20:42 CDT Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:14:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: BMEP To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <161733.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> Engine Analizer Pro looks really cool, not only does it generate VE -> tables and take into account things like turbine efficiency, rocker I have the base package. It asks you if the parts are round or square, what the valve size is, and then proceeds to plot VE tables. Miraculous! Think of all those fools who spent big bucks for SuperFlow rigs! The package has no credibility at all, particularly when you start feeding in data for something besides Ford and Chevy small blocks. I still believe it's table-driven internally. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 20 11:27:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03455; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 11:21:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03441; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:21:23 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HUABDRTAKG00009P@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 06:21:10 CDT Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:54:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: O2 sensor led meter-K&N ref. To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <161738.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> > So why hasn't someone come out with an inexpensive (around $300) -> generic EFI > Computers require software and algorithms. This is where the cost > comes from. I don't have to have umpteen quadzillion tweaks to pass EPA smog/CAFE standards. All I need to do is match a carb, or at least better than a Hilborn mechanical fuel injection. Reverse-engineering a ROM sucks, but writing it all out in the first place is no big deal. Someday someone *will* do a $300 controller. Meanwhile, I use a carb. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 21 01:51:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA04778; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 01:43:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA04764; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:43:23 -0400 Received: from [132.236.236.80] (CU-DIALUP-0306.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.236.80]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA10133 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:42:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:42:00 -0400 X-Sender: spm4@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: spm4@cornell.edu (Sean Magnuson) Subject: Re: led meter - Neville is right!. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks Neville, I almost forgot about J.C.W. I also purchased several LED meters from J.C. whitney a couple of years ago and they employ the same basic technology - an LED driver chip calibrated to the 02 sensor output range, but two of the four units I purchased suffered from cold-soldered pins on the board and required resoldering. Not too much concern in the quality-control department I guess. These are an excellent alternative to K&N's, but since the circuit is extremely simple to construct and you get the satisfaction of customizing the final product, you might as well spend your $30 bucks on the electronics and build one yourself. Sean Magnuson Motorcycle Nut From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 22 14:45:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA01881; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:35:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cougar.multiline.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01867; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:35:41 -0400 Received: from at.multiline.com.au (at.multiline.com.au [203.5.127.35]) by cougar.multiline.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA31788 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:17:46 +0800 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:17:46 +0800 Message-Id: <199508221417.WAA31788@cougar.multiline.com.au> X-Sender: at@multiline.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: at@MULTILINE.COM.AU (Adam Tate) Subject: WWW page Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I keep hearing about a DIY EFI web page. Is this operational yet? If so what is the URL? Adam Tate. [at@multiline.com.au] http://www.multiline.com.au/~atate/index.html From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 22 16:04:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA02305; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 15:56:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02291; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:56:45 -0400 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:56:50 -0600 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:55:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:55:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199508221555.JAA22842@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: WWW page Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I keep hearing about a DIY EFI web page. Is this operational yet? If so what > is the URL? > > Adam Tate. The DIY_EFI URL is: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi I put the schematic for the O2 LED meter from Dave Morrill in the subdirectory projects/O2_LED. If you are working on any diy_efi projects, I encourage you to send me a description so I can put it on our web page for others to reference. Chances are that other people are working on something similar. The web page still needs a lot of work, so if you have any other information/data to add, I'll be grateful. RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 71 Super Beetle (FOR SALE) fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca 84 320i From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 23 06:48:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA05572; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 06:40:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA05558; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:40:26 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id XAA27047 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:40:04 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id XAA04547; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:40:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI Subject: formulas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu While this may not have to do directly with EFI, it has to do with the intake manifold that I will mount my EFI stuff on so... I have been able to find a few equations dealing with the design of tuned intake manifolds. They seem quite generic and I was wondering if any of you know of other formulas that might be more appropriate. My application is a 2.6L 4, turbocharged and intercooled running pump gas. I will be fabricating the intake manifold but first need to finalize the design. Helmholtz Tuned Induction system F = ( C / 2pi ) * ( A / LV )^.5 F = resonant frequency C = sonic gas velocity A = cross sectional area of tuning pipe L = length of tuning pipe V = resonating volume The SAE article I got this from made no mention of the units nor how F relates to RPM. Would it be directly proportional? (F->RPM) Super Generic RPM based harmonic formulas 2nd harmonic 132000 / RPM = tuned length in inches 3rd harmonic 97000 / RPM 4th harmonic 74000 / RPM For these it seems that the earlier the harmonic, the broader and more powerful the tuning effect is. Unfortunately a 22 inch runner is kind of hard to package. Lastly, does anyone have the formula for calculating mechanical efficiency of an engine relating to compression ratio? Thanx much in advance, Mike Kent another poor engineer in training... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 23 14:49:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA06339; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 14:40:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06323; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:40:04 -0400 Received: from ts-a12-1-18.ucc.su.OZ.AU (ts-a12-1-18.ucc.su.OZ.AU [129.78.208.19]) by extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA26117 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 00:39:49 +1000 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 00:39:49 +1000 Message-Id: <199508231439.AAA26117@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> X-Sender: choward@postbox.usyd.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: choward@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Chris Howard) Subject: Re: formulas Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Lastly, does anyone have the formula for calculating mechanical >efficiency of an engine relating to compression ratio? I think you mean thermal efficiency not mechanical efficiency: 1 n = 1 - ------- th k-1 r where n = efficiency th k = specific heat ratio = 1.4 @ room temperature r = compression ratio This formula is for the ideal Otto cycle. Real efficiencies will be lower than this. Chris Howard Mechanical Engineering University of Sydney Australia Email: choward@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU Web: http://www.usyd.edu.au/~choward/welcome.htm From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 23 19:37:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA08385; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:15:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from afrserver.arc.nasa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA08371; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:15:39 -0400 Received: by afrserver.arc.nasa.gov (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA25328; Wed, 23 Aug 95 12:17:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 12:17:49 -0700 From: fletcher@afrserver.arc.nasa.gov (Jay Fletcher) Message-Id: <9508231917.AA25328@afrserver.arc.nasa.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Diagnosing Quad 4 ECU problem Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have an '89 Cutlass Calais with a Quad 4 which is having idle speed control fits at the moment. I would like to learn how to dump the error codes from the ECU so I can diagnose the problem. I have only worked with Ford's EEC-IV in the past though, so I am clueless where to begin with the Olds. Does anyone on this list have documentation on the procedures and codes that they could email to me? Otherwise, can you refer me to an Oldsmobile mailing list or other net resource? I'm not on this list any longer, so please reply directly. Thank you. Jay From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 23 20:45:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA08688; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:37:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA08673; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:37:52 -0400 Received: from kastor [134.169.34.8] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id WAA12876 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:37:28 +0200 Received: from knick@localhost by kastor.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id WAA18932 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:37:27 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199508232037.WAA18932@kastor.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: EFI-chips To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 22:37:26 MET DST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everybody! I need some help to identify the following chips. I got two ECUs without knowing from what cars they are. One is assembled by Siemens, the manufacturer of the second one is unknown. If you have any information, please let me know. I would like to know if I can do anything useful with them by using them in the data monitoring system I am building for my car. These are the chips, ordered by manufacturers. I write the complete printing I find upon the chips. Bosch: - 44pin plcc package 30155 DC 2894 BF830.6 - 44pin plcc package 30154 98 B 3394 BF610.1 Siemens: - 84pin plcc package B 58009 - 68pin plcc package B57828 BD26401 Intel: - 68pin plcc package B 57972 L4222749 BD 287829 Phillips: - 44pin plcc package 30279 2794 134050B=2/5 CC212 V2 - 20pin SOJ package: B57574 94127OME Hmm9434 E - 68pin plcc package 30074 162730 CC151 V1 Thank you, Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig near Wolfsburg knick@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 23 23:00:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA09066; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:53:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.pilot.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA09052; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 18:53:24 -0400 Received: from verity.com (unknown-143-5.verity.com [192.187.143.5]) by mail.pilot.net (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with SMTP id PAA13671 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cato.verity.com by verity.com (4.1/SMI-4.1_Verity-Main-950202) id AA07672; Wed, 23 Aug 95 15:52:24 PDT From: neville@Verity.COM (Neville Newman) Received: (neville@localhost) by cato.verity.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA02749 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:53:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:53:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199508232253.PAA02749@cato.verity.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Diagnosing Quad 4 ECU problem Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu i don't remember how to dump the codes, but i can tell you this. The best way to diagnose these problems is to find a shop (likely not a dealer, unless it's also a Hyundai or Mitsubishi dealer) that has a Simu-Tech machine. Snap-On/Sun now sells them, so check at known Sun shops. It will hook directly up to your ECU (not the ALDL port) and do full static and dynamic diagnostic checks of all the sensors, actuators, ECU, grounds, etc. -neville From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 00:25:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA09270; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 00:14:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.pilot.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA09256; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:14:24 -0400 Received: from verity.com (unknown-143-5.verity.com [192.187.143.5]) by mail.pilot.net (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with SMTP id RAA14962 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 17:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cato.verity.com by verity.com (4.1/SMI-4.1_Verity-Main-950202) id AA08961; Wed, 23 Aug 95 17:13:24 PDT From: neville@Verity.COM (Neville Newman) Received: (neville@localhost) by cato.verity.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA02840 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 17:14:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 17:14:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199508240014.RAA02840@cato.verity.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: oops! (was Re: Diagnosing Quad 4 ECU problem) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry. i meant to send a direct reply, not to the whole list. However, immediately after sending the reply, i deleted the original message. If someone could forward the original to me, i would very much appreciate it. Thanks. -neville From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 04:01:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA01231; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:55:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01217; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:54:57 -0400 Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA22167; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:28:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:28:34 -0700 Message-Id: <199508240228.TAA22167@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: eric_e@ix.netcom.com (Eric Elliott ) Subject: Manifold Selection To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, Which is preferable for a 355 CI 350 HP engine, the standard TPI system or the LT1 engine manifold system? My cam degrees are 208 in, 221 exh @ 0.05 lift, lift max 0.51" in, 0.474" exh. Dart2 Sportsman heads with 2" and 1.6" valves. With corvette heads the cam would peak torque at 3200 RPM & HP at 5850 RPM. Is the corvette ECU needed to run the LT1 manifold? Would the corvette ECU "like" my heads and cam? TIA Eric Elliott From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 08:23:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA01599; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:15:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA01584; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 04:15:04 -0400 Received: from sta.ericsson.se (sta-gw.ericsson.se [130.100.128.31]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.6.11/1.0) with SMTP id KAA07985 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:14:46 +0200 Received: from st76 (st76.ericsson.se) by sta.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-LME1.6) id AA21031; Thu, 24 Aug 95 10:14:45 +0200 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 10:14:45 +0200 From: etxmst@sta.ericsson.se (Markus Strobl) Message-Id: <9508240814.AA21031@sta.ericsson.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Manifold Selection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hello, > > Which is preferable for a 355 CI 350 HP engine, the standard TPI system > or the LT1 engine manifold system? > My cam degrees are 208 in, 221 exh @ 0.05 lift, lift max 0.51" in, > 0.474" exh. Dart2 Sportsman heads with 2" and 1.6" valves. With > corvette heads the cam would peak torque at 3200 RPM & HP at 5850 RPM. > > Is the corvette ECU needed to run the LT1 manifold? Would the corvette > ECU "like" my heads and cam? > > TIA > > Eric Elliott Hi Eric, The stock TPI is set up for low end torque, and the LT1 FI is set up more for high rpm hp. Most TPI owners I've talked to report power peaks below 5000rpm, and 5500rpm shiftpoints. But the TPI definetely makes more low end grunt (great for tire shredding!) Both setups should work with your cam and heads, although the 2"/1.6" valves are a little big for a low rpm TPI setup. But note that there is alot of aftermarket stuff for the TPI that would open it up at high rpm. Markus From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 13:39:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02378; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 13:31:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02364; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:31:24 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #14) id m0slcMP-000CvYC; Thu, 24 Aug 95 08:30 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: Manifold Selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:30:21 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508240228.TAA22167@ix4.ix.netcom.com> from "Eric Elliott" at Aug 23, 95 07:28:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 891 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Eric Elliott writes: > > Hello, > > Which is preferable for a 355 CI 350 HP engine, the standard TPI system > or the LT1 engine manifold system? > My cam degrees are 208 in, 221 exh @ 0.05 lift, lift max 0.51" in, > 0.474" exh. Dart2 Sportsman heads with 2" and 1.6" valves. With > corvette heads the cam would peak torque at 3200 RPM & HP at 5850 RPM. The LT1 manifold has no coolant crossover passage, no water inlet, no provision for a distributor. > Is the corvette ECU needed to run the LT1 manifold? Would the corvette > ECU "like" my heads and cam? Any system you run will require a custom calibration. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 15:15:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA03522; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:04:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03508; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 11:04:14 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA10178 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:03:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id IAA17641; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:03:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199508241503.IAA17641@sequent.sequent.com> To: diy_efi Subject: National chips Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 08:03:57 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu National's catalog has an automobile specific section. It includes the LM1949 Injector Drive Controller and the LM9044 Lambda Sensor Interface Amplifier (this is NOT the ubiquitous LM3914 Bar/Dot Display Driver). Nat'l Customer Response Group is at 1-800-272-9959 N also claims http://www.ncs.com as internet location. harmons@sequent.com (Harmon Sommer) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 19:59:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA10395; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:46:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from il50hpm1.micro.honeywell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA10381; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:46:25 -0400 Received: from po2.il50.micro.honeywell.com by il50hpm1.micro.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA12332; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 14:48:23 -0500 Received: by mail_gw.micro.honeywell.com with Microsoft Mail id <303CE5F8@mail_gw.micro.honeywell.com>; Thu, 24 Aug 95 14:50:00 CST From: "Meier, Roger" To: "'DIY_EFI (SMTP)'" Subject: Quad 4 ECU post Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 14:15:00 CST Message-Id: <303CE5F8@mail_gw.micro.honeywell.com> Encoding: 18 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Neville, Here is your original reply to the quad 4 ECU question. Sorry to post it to the list but I go through at least three firewalls to get to the net and return addresses are stripped no matter what I put in my Windows .ini file. >i don't remember how to dump the codes, but i can tell you this. >The best way to diagnose these problems is to find a shop (likely >not a dealer, unless it's also a Hyundai or Mitsubishi dealer) >that has a Simu-Tech machine. Snap-On/Sun now sells them, so check >at known Sun shops. It will hook directly up to your ECU (not the >ALDL port) and do full static and dynamic diagnostic checks of all >the sensors, actuators, ECU, grounds, etc. > > -neville Regards, Roger M From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 24 22:53:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA14904; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:46:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA14890; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:46:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199508242246.SAA14890@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA189754379; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:46:19 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Dynamometer program on WWW To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:46:18 EDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu With all of the talk lately of dynamometers, horsepower, etc, I made an web application which determines engine horsepower from vehicle MPH vs. time. The URL is: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/dyno.html The calculation is based on the equation (posted earlier) relating HP to MPH, weight, and acceleration. All one has to do is use a stopwatch to obtain time events to reach certain MPH's. The acceleration is obtained by using a cubic spline interpolant on the MPH vs. time, using the derivative of the spline (could have used a forward or backward differencing scheme, but the spline provides a piecewise-continuous function which can be differentiated analytically). The nice thing about this application is that the horsepower figures are corrected to standard conditions, allowing accurate comparisons to other corrected hp figures (such as magazines, real dynos, future runs, etc). This program is reachable from the master auto programs list: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 00:14:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA15087; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 00:07:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA15072; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 20:05:54 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma015751; Fri Aug 25 08:41:41 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.oz.au(137.147.20.34) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma021846; Fri Aug 25 10:04:22 1995 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id KAA10764 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:04:21 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199508250004.KAA10764@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: O2 sensors / bargraphs. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:04:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199508241503.IAA17641@sequent.sequent.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at Aug 24, 95 08:03:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 753 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > National's catalog has an automobile specific section. It includes the > LM1949 Injector Drive Controller and the LM9044 Lambda Sensor Interface > Amplifier (this is NOT the ubiquitous LM3914 Bar/Dot Display Driver). I seem to remember a design for a thirty LED O2 sensor display posted somewhere (I think it was over on RX7 club-any guys from there remember?). Also, since these displays show the _VOLTAGE_, and the voltage is dependant on the gas composition AND temperature, does this mean that the temperature variation is going to make the reading too in-accurate (eg more than 10% incorrect), or if used with a heated sensor will the temperature be reasonably stable regardless of the engine operating state? Cheers, Craig. pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 01:27:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA15228; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 01:20:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bob.indirect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15214; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:19:59 -0400 Received: from bud.indirect.com (root@bud.indirect.com [165.247.1.10]) by bob.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA05451 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:20:05 -0700 Received: from s51.tucslip.indirect.com (s55.tucslip.indirect.com [165.247.101.55]) by bud.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA20605 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:20:17 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 18:20:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199508250120.SAA20605@bud.indirect.com> X-Sender: ptheriau@indirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: ptheriau@indirect.com (Chris) Subject: Re: Manifold Selection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Which is preferable for a 355 CI 350 HP engine, the standard TPI system >or the LT1 engine manifold system? >My cam degrees are 208 in, 221 exh @ 0.05 lift, lift max 0.51" in, >0.474" exh. Dart2 Sportsman heads with 2" and 1.6" valves. With >corvette heads the cam would peak torque at 3200 RPM & HP at 5850 RPM. >Eric Elliott Why are you using such a short cam on dart2's? The factory used 242/254 on 70 LT1 vettes. I have Dart2's with 238/245 @.05 and .58 lift. I use the accel/lingenfelter superram manifold with the DFI computer. The only problem I have is that the tire tend to lose traction even when I am trying to leave a stop slowly. ( below 2000 rpm ). Chris From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 02:12:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA15317; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:05:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA15303; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:05:55 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA17817 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:05:43 -0400 Message-id: <9308178@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 24 Aug 95 22:05:44 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: Ford 2.3L O2 sensor To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anybody have any data on the O2 sensor that Ford uses on its 2.3 liter Rangers? It's got four wires and I don't know what to do with any of them to get a reading. Thanks, Jeff Giberstein Dartmouth Collage Formula SAE Engine Team From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 05:15:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA17081; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 05:05:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA17067; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 01:05:45 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id WAA01483 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:05:31 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id WAA10088; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:05:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: O2 sensors / bargraphs. In-Reply-To: <199508250004.KAA10764@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Is there a way to possibly use an EGT reading to compensate for the temp? > Also, since these displays show the _VOLTAGE_, and the voltage is dependant on the gas composition AND temperature, does this mean that the temperature variation is going to make the reading too in-accurate (eg more than 10% incorrect)... Mike Kent From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 15:06:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA18058; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 14:57:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA18044; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:57:24 -0400 Received: from twisto by wotan.compaq.com with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0slzy2-0009tkC; Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:42 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0slzxr-000uMzC; Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:42 CDT Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Fri, 25 Aug 95 9:42:24 CDT Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 9:42:23 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: Subject: re: National chips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Harmon Sommer Wrote: | | National's catalog has an automobile specific section. It | includes the | LM1949 Injector Drive Controller and the LM9044 Lambda Sensor | Interface | Amplifier (this is NOT the ubiquitous LM3914 Bar/Dot Display | Driver). | | Nat'l Customer Response Group is at 1-800-272-9959 | N also claims http://www.ncs.com as internet location. There is something at the above URL, but it's not National. Try: http://www.nsc.com/ :-) --steve | | | harmons@sequent.com (Harmon Sommer) | From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Aug 25 22:50:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA19877; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 22:43:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from unknown by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA19862; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 18:42:57 -0400 Received: by unknown (1.37.109.14/16.2) id AA069120436; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 15:40:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 15:40:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Pressure transducers and Charge Temp To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm wondering if any of you know a source of some inexpensive low pressure range transducers for the purpose of finding low/high pressure zones on my car's exterior. Engineers use small, high precision load-cells when doing material tests, etc but these are expensive and the pressure range is way beyond what I need. I don't even need actual numbers, if there was a way to hook them to a multitestor and just measure relative voltages, that would be fine. The reason I'm curious about the pressure is that I'm trying to find an appropriate place to draw fresh air for my airbox and also a place to vent heated air from the intercooler. I would also like to get measurement of my charge temperature in various places: at the airbox, just before the turbo, after the turbo, before the intercooler, after the intercooler and just before the throttle body. I may decide to permanently mount a guage in one place but right now I would just like to monitor my progress when adding thermo barriers/shields, etc. Thanks for your help! Joel Robinson robinj@src.usbm.gov From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Aug 26 18:13:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA25529; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 18:01:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA25515; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 14:01:21 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA16995 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:00:05 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id LAA15285; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:01:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199508261801.LAA15285@sequent.sequent.com> To: diy_efi Subject: pressure transducers Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 11:01:01 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >I'm wondering if any of you know a source of some inexpensive low >pressure range transducers for the purpose of finding low/high pressure >zones on my car's exterior. Engineers use small, high precision load-cells ... >Joel Robinson >robinj@src.usbm.gov Motorola has line of pressure transducers (MPX ...) with ranges of 0>1.5PSI on up. A good doc is their 'Pressure Sensor Device Data' manual (DL200/D). Gives all sorts of specs and app notes (barometers, pressure readouts; even using the respected LM3914 and a led dot/bar chip as pressure readout) Semiconductor Products Sector (602) 244-6900 (Phoenix AZ) Harmon harmons@sequent.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Aug 26 23:38:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA25910; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 23:31:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA25896; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:31:26 -0400 Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu [128.111.148.100]) by beauty.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) with ESMTP id QAA19914 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:31:09 -0700 Received: by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (8.6.12) id QAA07964; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:31:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: DIY_EFI cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Pressure transducers and Charge Temp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Try using tufts of string taped onto the cars exterior. That way you can see the turbulence of high low pressure areas. Mike Kent From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 27 02:48:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA26029; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 02:40:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA26015; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 22:40:31 -0400 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14698; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:30:28 -0600 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:30:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Grant Beattie Subject: Re: Pressure transducers and Charge Temp To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 26 Aug 1995, Michael Kent wrote: > Try using tufts of string taped onto the cars exterior. That way you can > see the turbulence of high low pressure areas. Tests are usually run using tufts of wool rather than string. GB From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Aug 27 15:20:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26507; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 15:06:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA26493; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 11:06:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199508271506.LAA26493@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.37.109.16/15.6) id AA188595994; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 09:06:34 -0600 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: O2 sensors / bargraphs. To: DIY_EFI Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 9:06:34 MDT In-Reply-To: ; from "Michael Kent" at Aug 24, 95 10:05 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Is there a way to possibly use an EGT reading to compensate for the temp? > > > Also, since these displays show the _VOLTAGE_, and the voltage is > dependant on the gas composition AND temperature, does this mean that > the temperature variation is going to make the reading too in-accurate (eg > more than 10% incorrect)... Not only does the reading vary with temperature, but *also* with age... believe it or not. Also, the manufacturer of the cell can affect the output characteristics: the vertical line in the curve remains the same, but the output voltages on either side vary. I've actually seen a case where a GM sensor worked fine, but putting a Ford sensor on confused the computer in a major way. here's an article... it's good reading material: SAE paper 920289, 'Operating Characteristics of Zirconia Galvanic Cells (Lambda Sensors) in Automotive Closed-Loop Emission Control Systems, by Bozek, Evans, Tyree, and Zerafa of the EPA. -dale From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 02:22:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA27271; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 02:11:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA27257; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:11:25 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01950 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:10:06 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id TAA00104; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:11:06 -0700 Message-Id: <199508280211.TAA00104@sequent.sequent.com> To: diy_efi Subject: NACA Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 19:11:06 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu CF Taylor has 'NACA' documents given as references in his books on internal combustion engines. I have written to both NASA and the US Dept of Commerce trying to get copies. No luck. Any suggestions? (NACA=National Advisory Council for Aeronautics; think they became part of FAA and NASA) Thx, harmons@sequent.com (Harmon Sommer) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 03:18:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA27388; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 03:08:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from thales.math.uwm.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA27373; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:08:39 -0400 From: jzurlo@thales.math.uwm.edu Received: by thales.math.uwm.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10145; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:02:56 -0500 Message-Id: <9508280302.AA10145@thales.math.uwm.edu> Subject: Re: NACA To: DIY_EFI Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:02:56 -0600 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508280211.TAA00104@sequent.sequent.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at Aug 27, 95 07:11:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 184 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Try a good research library. Interlibrary loan should also be able to get them for you. NACA did some fabulous work on reciprocating engines before the gas turbine was invented. Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 04:04:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA27498; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 03:55:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA27484; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:55:09 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <172208-3>; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:55:33 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17962; Sun, 27 Aug 95 23:47:46 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma017960; Sun Aug 27 23:47:31 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10484; Sun, 27 Aug 95 23:51:40 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA07723; Sun, 27 Aug 95 23:42:17 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:42:17 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9508280342.AA07723@ivan.gallium.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: NACA Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Try the Library of Congress. You can get to them via the Internet. I don't have the addresses, but someone should know them. If not, I'll check it out and post here. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 05:25:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA27626; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 05:15:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA27612; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 01:15:51 -0400 Received: by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27506; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:14:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:14:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: NACA To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199508280211.TAA00104@sequent.sequent.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, Harmon Sommer wrote: > CF Taylor has 'NACA' documents given as references in his books on internal > combustion engines. I have written to both NASA and the US Dept of Commerce > trying to get copies. No luck. Any suggestions? > These documents are available through NTIS in Virginia. Of course I dont have the address here,but can get it if necessary. I think fedworld.gov has a link to NTIS, too. Ask me if you need the address. For a http link try: www.larc.nasa.gov/naca/naca.html --they have titles, but not the documents themselves. For a good book, try "Development of Aircraft Engines" by Schlaifer which includes "Development of Aviation Fuels" by Heron. Old, out of print, but invaluable, IMO. Try a business library. Anybody with a copy to sell? Jim Davies From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 15:02:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA29070; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:00:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from localhost by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA29053; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:00:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199508281500.LAA29053@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: GM TPI manifold -- description Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:00:41 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Greg Jestico sent this to me a while ago, and I thought others may be interested. (reposted w/permission from Greg) ------- Forwarded Message From: pbjorn@sirius.UVic.CA Subject: TPI manifolds John, remembering an article from Car Craft magazine a year or so ago, I can give you this Info. If the manifold was originally from a Corvette, The manifold, runners, plenum, throttle body etc. remain identical from 1985 to 1989. These have conventional bolt hole angles, and as such will bolt to any earlier small block. the Corvette uses an external tube from the header to the manifold to supply the EGR. 1990 to 1991 manifolds have a boss for mounting the Map sensor at the right rear of the Plenum. These manifolds still have conventional mounting bolt angles. If the manifold is from Camaro/Firebird, The manifold is the same from 1985 to 1987. These have conventional bolt angles. The manifold has an internal passage from the head to supply the Egr. The remaining parts are the same as Vettes' , and it will bolt to any earlier smallblock. In 1988 GM changed the angle of the center two bolts on each head to a more vertical angle, and it remained that way until 1993. I have heard that these holes can be elongated and spot faced to match up with the earlier design, but have not seen how cleanly it can be done. In 1990 the same boss for the Map sensor was added to the plenum as the Vettes. The 1985-1988 TPI on all models used a cold start enrichment valve. The plenum and runners have passages for this. After 1988, the valve was eliminated. All this means that there are ; 3 possible manifold bases- internal Egr, external Egr, and angled center bolts. 2 possible runner tube pairs- With cold start passage or without. 3 possible plenums- early whith cold start passage, mid. without cold start passage and late with Map boss. GM also made a revision to the Throttle cable attaching design on 1989 and later TPI systems. Greg Jestico at pbjorn@sirius.UVic.CA ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 19:19:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01097; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:16:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01034; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:15:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199508281915.PAA01034@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA098567331; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:15:31 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Pls. repost accelerometer To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:15:30 EDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu About 1 month ago, there was a discussion about accelerometers, which I missed most of the posts. Could someone re-post the accelerometer part which would be applicable in measuring automotive G forces? Thanks - bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 20:36:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01580; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:33:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netmail.austin.ibm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01566; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:33:48 -0400 Received: from foules.austin.ibm.com (foules.austin.ibm.com [129.35.145.177]) by netmail.austin.ibm.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA119324 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:33:24 -0500 Received: by foules.austin.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA12458; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:33:23 -0500 From: dcole@austin.ibm.com (Dixon Cole) Message-Id: <9508282033.AA12458@foules.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Cheap, small, simple injector. To: DIY_EFI (efi) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:33:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1126 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm looking for an injector small enough for single cylinder (600cc) motorcycle use. Preferrably easy-to-plumb (no weirdo fuel rail or special mounting boss) with low current draw. Does anyone have specs on something of this nature? Something available through auto-parts stores would be really nice! 8-) >From the DIY-EFI WWW pages and Bruce's injector computer, I used: 300 cid ~= 600cc/cylinder 80% v.e. 8000 rpm sequential injection. Gives me a 33 lb/hr injector. What bearing does fuel pressure have on these figures? Also, has anyone used the Motorola MPX-nnnn series of pressure transducers for MAP duty? I've been thinking that their 29psi differential unit would suffice, but not sure about vibration, heat, etc. I can make a SWAG based on the sensor data, but experimental data would be nice. info appreciated! thanx, Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dixon Cole - dcole@austin.ibm.com IBM RISC/System 6000 Division, Austin, TX (512) 838-8971, T.L. 678-8971 Level 3 Support The views expressed herein are not necessarily those of IBM Corp. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 21:26:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01821; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:24:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01807; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:24:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199508282124.RAA01807@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA016495043; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:24:03 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Cheap, small, simple injector. To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:24:03 EDT In-Reply-To: <9508282033.AA12458@foules.austin.ibm.com>; from "Dixon Cole" at Aug 28, 95 3:33 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ Gives me a 33 lb/hr injector. What bearing does fuel pressure have ~ on these figures? The flow rate of an injector is based at some test pressure, usually for OEM the fuel rail pressure (i.e. a Jag 4.2 engine fuel injector flows 20 lbs/hr @ 39 PSI fuel rail). To convert flows from one fuel rail pressure to another, use: sqrt(new_pressure/old_pressure) * old_flow = new_flow For the Jag example, to see the flow at 25 PSI fuel rail: sqrt(25 / 39) * 20 = 16 - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Aug 28 22:53:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA02099; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:50:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02085; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:50:49 -0400 From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.2) id AA0538; Mon, 28 Aug 95 18:50:12 -0700 Message-Id: <9508290150.AA0538@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 18:48:08 EST To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Pls. repost accelerometer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > About 1 month ago, there was a discussion about accelerometers, which > I missed most of the posts. Could someone re-post the accelerometer > part which would be applicable in measuring automotive G forces? > > Thanks - bruce The accelerometer of choice seems to be Analog Device's ADXL05 part. Its good for 5 g's. Newark had them in stock a couple weeks back. Cost is around $30. A preliminary part from AMP is about $30 also but can measure three axes (x-, z-, and rotational about z-). -tim From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 29 00:37:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA02416; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:34:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02402; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:34:38 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA15737 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:33:16 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id RAA11559; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:34:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199508290034.RAA11559@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Just guessing here, but ... Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:34:17 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My Guess: Electronic ignition timing is done by phase locking an oscillator to a timing point on the crank. This enables the controller to determine where the crank is at any time (dependent upon the freq of the oscillator)to what ever degree of rotation is desired. This information can then be used to set spark advance for engine operating conditions. Or have I guessed wrong. harmons@sequent.com (Harmon Sommer) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 29 03:33:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA02717; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 03:27:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02703; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:27:01 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09667; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:29:21 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38444; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:23:31 -0600 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:22:12 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Just guessing here, but ... To: Harmon Sommer Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199508290034.RAA11559@sequent.sequent.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, not on BOSCH boxes, where timing is done by counting flywheel teeth after a ref. point ... and sometimes further controlled by a sub-tooth time period (on the 60-2 tooth wheels) Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Aug 29 13:46:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03916; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:42:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA03902; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:42:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199508291342.JAA03902@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.37.109.16/15.6) id AA297763709; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 07:41:49 -0600 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Just guessing here, but ... To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 7:41:49 MDT In-Reply-To: ; from "Jim Conforti" at Aug 28, 95 9:22 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Well, not on BOSCH boxes, where timing is done by counting > flywheel teeth after a ref. point ... and sometimes further > controlled by a sub-tooth time period (on the 60-2 tooth wheels) And on older GM boxes (with distributors), they just use the time between TDC pulses, with a small non-linearity adjustment for timing for the engine's speed variation from cylinder to cylinder. You can do this with an output compare and input capture register on an HC11: TIC - last time -> cyl time TIC -> last time TIC + cyl time * (90 deg - ignition timing - dwell time) / 90 degrees -> TOC TIC + cyl time * (90 deg - ignition timing) / 90 degrees -> nextTOC That's just the math. The code is a bit more complicated, to compensate for error conditions that happen frequently... -Dale From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 30 13:26:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA10026; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:23:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA09990; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:22:38 -0400 Received: (from ciciora@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12/CNS-3.6) id HAA27674; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:22:20 -0600 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:22:20 -0600 (MDT) From: CICIORA STEVEN JOSEP To: efi332 cc: diy_efi Subject: Developing an Engine Control System Part 1 of 3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, Ed Lansinger beat me to it. He wrote the article I wanted to (I'm not sure that I could have, anyway). In the latest Circuit Cellar Ink, the first of a three part seriese on developing a 68hc16 based EFI system, used in a Formula SAE car. He does a good job going over he calculated injector size, how he calculated the fuel map, etc. He used a TIP120 transistor to drive a 12 ohm injector directly, with no diodes. Driven directly from a TTL bit. I'm impressed with the article, and look foward to the rest of his series. He is the first one I've seen that has actually built an EFI system and is willing to share it. Oh, ya. It's for a 70 hp, 600cc high rpm motor-cycle engine. He runs two banks of two spark plugs and injectors (simultaneous double fire, rather than sequential). Circuit Cellar Ink: (800) 269-6301 Ed Lansinger: lansie@rpi.edu "Ed Lansinger is a computer and systems engineer who worked on the Cadillac Northstar powertrain control software, cofounded an industrial software company, and does consulting. He has returned to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute for graduate studies and is forming a team there to build an electric race car." -Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Aug 30 16:05:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA11434; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:03:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA11409; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:02:44 -0400 Received: from happyformula.meche.rpi.edu (happyformula.meche.rpi.edu [128.113.110.70]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA00790; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:01:50 -0400 Received: (lansie@localhost) by happyformula.meche.rpi.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) id MAA16189; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:01:44 -0400 From: "Edward J. Lansinger" Message-Id: <9508301201.ZM15163@happyformula.meche.rpi.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:01:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: CICIORA STEVEN JOSEP "Developing an Engine Control System Part 1 of 3" (Aug 30, 7:22am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 07feb95) To: diy_efi, efi332 Subject: Re: Developing an Engine Control System Part 1 of 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My thanks to Steven Ciciora for pointing out the article I wrote for Circuit Cellar INK. In deference to the fact that there are others out there who have done similar work and who talk about it here, I plug both the DIY_EFI and EFI332 lists in the last article. I hope people enjoy reading the articles. They were, of course, edited to fit size and style requirements. I tried to fit as much detail in as I could but still feel as though I've left out half of it. I'd be happy to answer any questions that arise. Ed Lansinger lansie@rpi.edu elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com Rensselaer Formula Lightning Project Rensselaer Formula Car Project From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 03:17:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA01954; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 03:10:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01940; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:10:23 -0400 Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA28828; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:07:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:07:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199508310307.UAA28828@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: eric_e@ix.netcom.com (Eric Elliott ) Subject: Dynamometer, affordable To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, The local aircraft rebuilder thinks a used aircraft propeller could be an excellent power waster. He said: Perfectly good propellers, propeller shafts, crankshafts and other parts are discarded due to age, hours of use or minor cosmetic damages. Propellers can be fixed pitch (load a function of RPM and flow restriction) or variable pitch. Pitch controls can be electric, mechanical, hydraulic or combination of mech. input ring and internal hydraulics. Props range from 25 to 1500 HP at limits of 1500 to 3100 RPM. The RPM limit is due to efficiency loss as tip velocity exceeds speed of sound. Beyond the speed of sound the prop might break or just be a power (dynamometer) waster. Clubs are like propellers, but intended for engine testing on ground. Clubs can be inexpensively made for custom purposes. An engine case and out of hours crankshaft could supply pitch controls and mounting for a variable pitch prop. A fixed pitch prop on a pallet size mount with a manual transmission, thrust bearing and prop guard/thrust diffuser could be shipped from user to user. Gear ratios could help match loads to needs. The diffuser could keep it from “leaving”. Headline: Leafblower From Hell deafens 2, cleans 3 yards! A prop on a rear axle could be cheap and avoid the 3100 RPM limit via hypoid gear ratio. The differential could be locked for <$5, via addition of 2 spider gears. A thrust bearing might not be needed as ring gear axial thrust might exceed prop thrust. Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. Eric Elliott From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 14:51:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA03656; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:44:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kla.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03641; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:44:41 -0400 Received: from newkla.kla.com by kla.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26211; Thu, 31 Aug 95 07:46:04 PDT Received: from sled.rr.rapid.kla by newkla.kla.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09581; Thu, 31 Aug 95 07:43:39 PDT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 07:43:39 PDT From: steveb@newkla.kla.com (Steven Buchholz) Message-Id: <9508311443.AA09581@newkla.kla.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Eric Elliott wrote: [excerpted] > A prop on a rear axle could be cheap and avoid the 3100 RPM limit via > hypoid gear ratio. The differential could be locked for <$5, via > addition of 2 spider gears. A thrust bearing might not be needed as > ring gear axial thrust might exceed prop thrust. > Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in > order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. Just a quick $0.02 ... if you chose the rear differential from an Audi Quattro you would find that the diff locking mechanism was built in. I don't know how many different reduction ratios are available in these diffs. Steve Buchholz s_buchho@kla.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 15:16:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA03778; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:13:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netmail1.austin.ibm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03764; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:13:33 -0400 Received: from foules.austin.ibm.com (foules.austin.ibm.com [129.35.145.177]) by netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA43094 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:13:14 -0500 Received: by foules.austin.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA10430; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:13:09 -0500 From: dcole@austin.ibm.com (Dixon Cole) Message-Id: <9508311513.AA10430@foules.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Next question: Fuel pumps.... To: DIY_EFI (efi) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:13:08 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1315 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, I think I have the solution to my injector problem (Thanks Kent!). So here's my next problem: I need a small, low-current-draw, high pressure, low (relatively) volume fuel pump/system. Engine is a 600cc single cylinder motorcycle engine with 8000 max rpm. Fuel demands work out to about 33 lbs/hour. Current plan is to use 2 19lb injectors from a Mustang. Most (all?) automotive systems circulate fuel to the regulator and back to the tank. This idea seems great for keeping the fuel cool and allowing quick response to larger fuel demands (less inertia of fuel in the line to overcome). My problem is that I don't have a lot of current available for the injection system and I'm trying to save a few mA here and there (engine is on a Honda XR600R dirt bike). I don't want to put too big of a pump in the system and waste current pumping a lot of fuel through the system. Are there any guidelines to follow for sizing fuel systems? Sorry to be such an information drain. Maybe when I get my system running I can return the favors. Thanks for your help! Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dixon Cole - dcole@austin.ibm.com IBM RISC/System 6000 Division, Austin, TX (512) 838-8971, T.L. 678-8971 Level 3 Support Not speaking for IBM. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 16:16:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04004; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:14:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns2.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA03990; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:14:50 -0400 Received: by ns2.eds.com (hello) id MAA05581; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:14:32 -0400 Received: by nnsp.eds.com (hello) id MAA28240; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:14:31 -0400 Received: from koiasw15.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA25407 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:14:29 -0500 Received: by koiasw15.delcoelect.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07887; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:14:29 -0500 From: c1ilep@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Lawrence E. Piekarski) Message-Id: <9508311614.AA07887@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Next question: Fuel pumps.... To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:14:28 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9508311513.AA10430@foules.austin.ibm.com> from "Dixon Cole" at Aug 31, 95 10:13:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I need a small, low-current-draw, high pressure, low (relatively) volume fuel >pump/system. > >Engine is a 600cc single cylinder motorcycle engine with 8000 max rpm. Fuel >demands work out to about 33 lbs/hour. Current plan is to use 2 19lb injectors >from a Mustang. > >Most (all?) automotive systems circulate fuel to the regulator and back to >the tank. This idea seems great for keeping the fuel cool and allowing >quick response to larger fuel demands (less inertia of fuel in the line to >overcome). My problem is that I don't have a lot of current available for >the injection system and I'm trying to save a few mA here and there (engine >is on a Honda XR600R dirt bike). I don't want to put too big of a pump >in the system and waste current pumping a lot of fuel through the system. >Are there any guidelines to follow for sizing fuel systems? Well, I have two thoughts. 1) Any any system, there is a spectrum of users, you have you 600cc dirt bike and I have a 527 c.i. V-8 tractor-pull motor. Still, I just went through what you are asking about. I have twin 900 cfm carbs mounted high atop a tunnel ram with a Mallory fuel pump mounted below the frame rails right next to the fuel tank. The fuel pump had a built in regulator, which I had adjusted to about 8 psi. Problem: I idled out on the track and tightened the chain, dropped her in gear and dumped the throttle. Since there was about 3 feet of fuel line between the pump and the carb, here is what happened. When I dumped the throttle, the fuel began pouring into the engine (and I do mean pouring). The fuel pressure at the carb dropped to near zero. It took on the order of 250ms for the zero pulse to make it back to the fuel pump regulator, at which time the fuel bowls were running dry since there was no fuel line pressure to fill them. At this point the regulator notices the zero psi fuel pulse and drives fuel up the line virtually unregulated. Now, there is so much fuel pressure that the float holds back what they can, but fuel starts running out the top. 250ms the regulator notices the excess pressure and stops pumping fuel, and they cycle starts again. What I noticed is that when I dumped the throttle, the fuel pressure would drop to 0, spike to 15+ psi and so on in a damped sine wave of about 2Hz. After 5-10 seconds, the regulator finally "got a clue" and we were running. Naturally, the engine didn't run good with the alternate leaning/flooding going on. Solution: I placed the twin regulators right at the carb. This eliminated the 250ms time constants. While you won't use near the fuel I do, you also don't have a fuel bowl reserve, so constant pressure is imperative. The reason for the regulator at the fuel rail is not to cool the fuel (though it is a nice side effect) but to ensure that on idle -> WOT transitions, you don't have a drop in pressure which would cause leaning. You could probably compensate for this in software, but it seems needlessly complicated. 2) I think that is would be easier (i.e. less current) to pump moving fuel back to a tank than it would be to apply pressure to stationary fuel. Electric motors generate back EMF, they draw the most current at a locked rotor condition and the least at wide-open-no-load. I would think your current draw would be less actually pumping fluid (higher rotor speed) and applying pressure to a non-moving or slow-moving fluid (less rotor speed). In my thinking, it is easier to push a car 125 feet down the road and then push it back 25 feet, than to push it 100 feet with the brakes partially applied. -- (* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) (* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) (* c1ilep@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com *) (* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 18:53:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA04715; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:51:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from access1.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA04701; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:51:45 -0400 Received: (from wrl@localhost) by access1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29598 ; for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:51:07 -0400 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199508311851.OAA29598@access1.digex.net> Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:51:02 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9508311443.AA09581@newkla.kla.com> from "Steven Buchholz" at Aug 31, 95 07:43:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1322 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Eric Elliott wrote: [excerpted] > > A prop on a rear axle could be cheap and avoid the 3100 RPM limit via > > hypoid gear ratio. The differential could be locked for <$5, via > > addition of 2 spider gears. A thrust bearing might not be needed as > > ring gear axial thrust might exceed prop thrust. > > Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in > > order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. > > Just a quick $0.02 ... if you chose the rear differential from an Audi > Quattro you would find that the diff locking mechanism was built in. > I don't know how many different reduction ratios are available in these > diffs. > > Steve Buchholz > s_buchho@kla.com > I've considered building a light dyno using a VW Type I transaxle, connecting a torque measuring device (like a torque wrench) to the output flange on one side, and a water spray cooled disk brake on the other. I'm afraid my scheme has the spider gears in the differential constantly spinning under load, and a quick look in the shop manual shows no ball or roller bearings used in the stub output shafts. I dropped the idea assuming the simple bushings would burn up. Having the transmission in a low gear would keep the brake rotor speed within reason. /Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@access.digex.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 19:17:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA04796; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 19:16:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04782; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:16:14 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01HUQ0Z9DHNKG3QYIG@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <30460A4F@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: Developing an Engine Control System Part 1 of 3 To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <30460A4F@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 34 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu The part 1 article is in the September issue. I saw it in the bookstore last night. BZ ---------- From: owner-diy_efi-outgoing To: efi332 Cc: diy_efi Subject: Developing an Engine Control System Part 1 of 3 Date: Wednesday, August 30, 1995 7:22AM Well, Ed Lansinger beat me to it. He wrote the article I wanted to (I'm not sure that I could have, anyway). In the latest Circuit Cellar Ink, the first of a three part seriese on developing a 68hc16 based EFI system, used in a Formula SAE car. He does a good job going over he calculated injector size, how he calculated the fuel map, etc. He used a TIP120 transistor to drive a 12 ohm injector directly, with no diodes. Driven directly from a TTL bit. I'm impressed with the article, and look foward to the rest of his series. He is the first one I've seen that has actually built an EFI system and is willing to share it. Oh, ya. It's for a 70 hp, 600cc high rpm motor-cycle engine. He runs two banks of two spark plugs and injectors (simultaneous double fire, rather than sequential). Circuit Cellar Ink: (800) 269-6301 Ed Lansinger: lansie@rpi.edu "Ed Lansinger is a computer and systems engineer who worked on the Cadillac Northstar powertrain control software, cofounded an industrial software company, and does consulting. He has returned to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute for graduate studies and is forming a team there to build an electric race car." -Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 20:14:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA05092; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:12:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bagate by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA05077; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:12:22 -0400 Received: by bagate.BELL-ATL.COM (O) id ; Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:12 EDT Received: by bagate.BELL-ATL.COM (I1) id ; Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:11 EDT Received: from iw008447. (iw008447.bell-atl.com) by is000895.Bell-Atl.Com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA26770; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:14:32 -0400 Received: by iw008447. (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01498; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:11:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:11:57 -0400 From: dkls7q6@is000895 (Parmer) Message-Id: <9508312011.AA01498@iw008447.> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1607 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: steveb@newkla.kla.com (Steven Buchholz) > Eric Elliott wrote: [excerpted] > > A prop on a rear axle could be cheap and avoid the 3100 RPM limit via > > hypoid gear ratio. The differential could be locked for <$5, via > > addition of 2 spider gears. A thrust bearing might not be needed as > > ring gear axial thrust might exceed prop thrust. > > Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in > > order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. > > Just a quick $0.02 ... if you chose the rear differential from an Audi > Quattro you would find that the diff locking mechanism was built in. > I don't know how many different reduction ratios are available in these > diffs. There are lots of limitation/problems with this type of setup, but as long as you're brainstorming.... A 3:1 ratio rearend (or tranny config) will increase your max RPM from 3100 to 9300, but you will have divided your power consumption by 3 also. On a more positive note however, if you had 2 matched props you could put one on each end of that rearend and not have the problem of it trying to fly off...while getting twice the power sink. Sounds like one helluva dangerous and loud contraption. I had figured that an irrigation pump would be as good a compromise as anything. Some people would be grateful to have you blast a stream of water into the air and aerate (sp?) their pond. Lack of O2 in the water is a common summertime problem for small ponds. I'd kinda like to see that mega leaf blower if anyone tries it. Greg Parmer gparmer@acenet.auburn.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 21:56:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA05559; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 21:55:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay3.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA05545; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:55:32 -0400 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzffj28374; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:55:12 -0400 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA26417; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:55:02 -0500 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma026387; Thu Aug 31 16:54:27 1995 Received: from optilink.dsccc.com (optilink.optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA27194 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:54:29 -0500 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.dsccc.com with smtp id m0soHZ7-0002MRC; Thu, 31 Aug 95 14:54 PDT Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0soHbF-000Nz6C; Thu, 31 Aug 95 14:56 PDT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 14:56 PDT From: Frank_Marrone@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com Message-Id: <9508311456.ZM2169@montreal> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: DIY_EFI Subject: RE: propellor dyno Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I showed the propeller post to a friend of mine. We have been toying with the build at home dyno idea for quite some time now. We were thinking maybe a jet boat prop in a large swiming pool or lake would make a good load but the airplane propellor sounds even better. I thought I'd forward his comments to the list since he had some input both humorous and technical... --- Forwarded mail from sdelanty@wco.com From: sdelanty@wco.com Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:38:40 -0500 > >Hello, >The local aircraft rebuilder thinks a used aircraft propeller could be >an excellent power waster. >Perfectly good propellers, propeller shafts, crankshafts and other >parts are discarded due to age, hours of use or minor cosmetic damages. That's a cool idea! So where do we get 'em? Next time we go to quinns we should ask around at the airport. >Beyond the speed of sound the prop might break or just >be a power (dynamometer) waster. Wasting power is cool! Breaking would suck! Have to be careful about that. If you had a prop that used more power than you had available, You could restrict the inlet air to "unload" it. >Clubs are like propellers, but intended for engine testing on ground. >Clubs can be inexpensively made for custom purposes. I'll bet if one was clever, clubs could be made at home. Clubs also have the advantage that they don't push tons of air in just one direction, so the thrust bearing could be less heavy duty. >A prop on a rear axle could be cheap and avoid the 3100 RPM limit via >hypoid gear ratio. The differential could be locked for <$5, via >addition of 2 spider gears. A thrust bearing might not be needed as >ring gear axial thrust might exceed prop thrust. How about a tranny (for changing load) and rear end (2.0?) with 2 smaller props, one on each axle? If the props pointed in opposite direction, the thing would have less of a tendancy to "fly away". It would suck to have Your 390 get away and go flying around geyserville! Also the thrust load on each would only be half of what one larger prop would create. Maybe a set of props or blowers that just bolt up to the rear axles of the vehicle to be dynoed. Kind of a chassis dyno thing, just jack the rear end up on yer car, pull the wheels off and bolt yer props on... >Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in >order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. Maybe we could use it to chop a big batch of salsa. Steve Delanty sdelanty@wco.com ---End of forwarded mail from sdelanty@wco.com -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 22:05:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA05591; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:04:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA05577; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:04:45 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com (sequent.sequent.com [138.95.19.1]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA04392 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:03:14 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id PAA20424; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:04:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199508312204.PAA20424@sequent.sequent.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:11:57 PDT." <9508312011.AA01498@iw008447.> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:04:18 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I'd kinda like to see that mega leaf blower if anyone tries it. Swamp buggies have been using this technology for years (instead of blowing the leaf they become the leaf). My understanding of R-4360 engines as used in B-36s, had a geared propeller, where the gearbox was planetary gear train. The planetary gears were restrained by a yoke, which reacted against a hydraulic piston. Pressure information from this piston was displayed to the flight engineer. This information related directly to engine torque i.e. an in flight dynamometer (or six of them; one for each engine). From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 22:21:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA05646; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:20:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay3.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA05632; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:20:52 -0400 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzffl05480; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:20:32 -0400 Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA27904; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:20:22 -0500 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma027889; Thu Aug 31 17:20:05 1995 Received: from optilink.dsccc.com (optilink.optilink.dsccc.com [192.9.200.1]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA28707 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:20:10 -0500 Received: from montreal.optilink.dsccc.com by optilink.dsccc.com with smtp id m0soHxy-0002MRC; Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:20 PDT Received: by montreal.optilink.dsccc.com id m0soI06-000Nz6C; Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:22 PDT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:22 PDT From: Frank_Marrone@optilink.optilink.dsccc.com Message-Id: <9508311522.ZM2182@montreal> In-Reply-To: Harmon Sommer "Re: Dynamometer, affordable" (Aug 31, 3:04pm) References: <199508312204.PAA20424@sequent.sequent.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Aug 31, 3:04pm, Harmon Sommer wrote: > Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable >...The planetary gears > were restrained by a yoke, which reacted against a hydraulic piston. > Pressure information from this piston was displayed to the flight engineer. > This information related directly to engine torque i.e. an in flight > dynamometer (or six of them; one for each engine). The hydraulic piston is how we planned to measure force on our DIY dyno. Standard hydraulic cylinders can be purchased with ratings from hundreds to thousands of PSI and the the piston diameters are either specified or can be measured. You simply apply the load to the ram and measure the fluid preassure at the (normally) input port and calculate torque based on piston area and lever arm length. Empiric calibration of such a device would be very easy as well. -- Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com 1965 Sunbeam Tiger B9471116 1960 Sumbean Pintopine Series I B9009330 1966 Ford LTD 4-door family barge. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 22:41:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA05683; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:38:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gmi.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA05669; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:38:43 -0400 Received: from apollo (apollo.gmi.edu) by gmi.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA21737; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:42:23 -0400 Received: by apollo (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA15707; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:36:50 +0500 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:36:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" X-Sender: graydon@apollo To: Parmer Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable In-Reply-To: <9508312011.AA01498@iw008447.> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 31 Aug 1995, Parmer wrote: > I'd kinda like to see that mega leaf blower if anyone tries it. A few years ago when I was in school down south, they had an aviation program, and outside the building, they had a big radial engine out of a very big, old airplane. It was mounted to a test stand, with a prop, and when started, made a great noise, and alot of wind. It had a variable pitch prop, so they could set it to not move any air at all, or they could adjust it to move alot of air. It always stands me in awe to see thousands of HP instead of the usual 100s that we deal with in the automotive industry. Later, Graydon D. Stuckey graydon@apollo.gmi.edu '86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, GDS Racing Stage 1 '83 Mazda RX7 w/13B, GDS Racing Stage 58474 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Aug 31 23:17:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA05823; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 23:15:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mamacass.sp.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA05809; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 19:15:28 -0400 Received: from zombie.dpdl (zombie.sp.TRW.COM) by mamacass.sp.trw.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19611; Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:05:33 PDT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:05:33 PDT From: scot@mamacass.sp.trw.com (Scot O. Stockton) Message-Id: <9508312305.AA19611@mamacass.sp.trw.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: RE: propellor dyno Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Some calculation of (effect of) thrust to be generated would be in > >order. Also consider tendency of prop to "process" people. > > Maybe we could use it to chop a big batch of salsa. > > Steve Delanty > sdelanty@wco.com > > > > ---End of forwarded mail from sdelanty@wco.com > > -- > Frank Marrone at marrone@optilink.dsccc.com Silly question, but how 'bout using it in front of grandad's windmill and recouping some $$$ from the electric co? L8r, -S [EFI Rat infested '39 Ford Tudor Sedan Deluxe] From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 1 06:03:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA06900; Fri, 1 Sep 1995 06:01:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA06886; Fri, 1 Sep 1995 02:01:22 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma014075; Fri Sep 1 14:31:46 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.oz.au(137.147.20.34) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma011165; Fri Sep 1 15:58:07 1995 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id PAA25700 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:58:05 +1000 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199509010558.PAA25700@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Dynamometer, affordable To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:58:04 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199508311851.OAA29598@access1.digex.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Aug 31, 95 02:51:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 681 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I've considered building a light dyno using a VW Type I transaxle, connecting > a torque measuring device (like a torque wrench) to the output flange on > one side, and a water spray cooled disk brake on the other. I'm afraid Hmm.. How about a diff assembly out of an IRS car with inboard discs. (an old Jag diff perhaps) You could probably even get tricky and make up a cradle so it could fit underneath a car (with the engine installed), and run the tailshaft out of the gearbox to the 'load device'. Make certain that the tailshaft universal joint angles are within an acceptable range and the thing is secure (eg the weight of the vehicle holding it down). Cheers, Craig.