From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 10:26:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA22574; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:14:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA22569; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 05:14:19 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HYA2YWLOWW00009D@UALR.EDU>; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:14:11 CDT Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 19:42:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection To: diy_efi Message-id: <206534.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> > 1. cheap - at least here in Canada, less than half the cost of -> gasoline > per gallon yes, per mile, not quite. I don't remember the exact > number, but the energy content of propane is significantly lower than > gasoline. Here in Arkansas, unleaded regular runs about 97 cents per gallon. Propane runs $1.50. Diesel runs around a dollar per gallon. Regardless of any inherent advantages of gaseous vs liquid fuels, Otto or Diesel cycles, the major player continues to be the tax burden on the fuel. More than half the pump price of gasoline is tax. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 11:18:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA22686; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:10:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA22676; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:10:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:10:06 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199512011110.GAA22676@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archives to all the mailing lists are available through Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". WWW site: diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 13:07:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA22966; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:54:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA22961; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:54:49 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.100]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA01727 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 05:55:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 05:55:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199512011355.FAA01727@post.everett.net> X-Sender: allnight@everett.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Johnny Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 07:42 PM 11/30/95 +0000, you wrote: > >-> > 1. cheap - at least here in Canada, less than half the cost of >-> gasoline > >> per gallon yes, per mile, not quite. I don't remember the exact >> number, but the energy content of propane is significantly lower than >> gasoline. > > Here in Arkansas, unleaded regular runs about 97 cents per gallon. >Propane runs $1.50. Diesel runs around a dollar per gallon. > > Regardless of any inherent advantages of gaseous vs liquid fuels, Otto >or Diesel cycles, the major player continues to be the tax burden on the >fuel. More than half the pump price of gasoline is tax. hehe, that's the best thing about propane. In the Seattle area unleaded regular is about $1.05 to $1.15, Propane at the pump (road tax applied) about $1.25, but at home in that huge tank in the front yard for heating fuel it's only $.75 per gal, delivered now, pay later. I have a hose on my tank for filling... uh .. er.. my tractor, ya that's it, my tractor. No wait, the best part is that you can actually build a real motor for it, you know with pop-ups, I figure about 12:1 should be just about right. At that compression there is no limit to how much cam you can run. Ya and emmissions... hah, just drive right by that stupid little test booth while laying down some serious rubber. You can get the exemption for propane powered vehicles. I have been experimenting with trying to get the stuff to stay in a liquid state all the way to the injector, off and on, for quite a while now. I could never quite get the line pressure to be stable enough under varying throttle conditions. Part of the trouble was I was not able to get the right injectors. I am thinking now that I can just pump up the tank with nitrogen to boost the tank pressure to about 300-400psi or so, regulate it through a liquid type high pressure regulator to get the line pressure stablized at about 150psi or so, go with the high pressure injectors you guy have mentioned here, sized as tiny as possible so that I can get fairly good metering at idle. I think if you build a high compression engine designed exclusively for propane use, it could be a real killer. Just think about how much bang you can get out of 12:1 compared to the 9:1 we are forced to use for running that swamp water they dish out as gasoline. I'll see ya later (door slams as he scurries out to the shop to scrounge parts) -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 13:08:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA22977; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:00:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA22972; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:00:01 -0500 From: CCORBIN@INTEL7.intel.com Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (5.65/10.0i); Fri, 1 Dec 95 04:52:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 04:59:59 PST Message-Id: <9512011259.utk18505@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Getting Started To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Folks, Quick questions for everyone here. I am new to the list, so some of this might have been covered else were. First, what are some good sources of info for hardware (CISC and RISC MCUs), software (C and assembly for the MCU's) and info on all the supporting components. For reference, I want to build a complete efi for my motorcycle. I want to use a speed density system similar to the one in Circuit Cellar Ink, but I do believe it needs some extra items to be viable for a street bike. Some of these are: intake air temperature (for density calculations) engine temp (idle enrichment) cam postion sensor (sequential fuel injection for idle quality) (possibly) knock sensor (for the crappy gas you sometimes get) Needless to say, this is not a complete list of what I want or need. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Oh, one more thing I really do not have a clue about is some of the engin control algortims. Anybody know of a good source? Thanks. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 14:36:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA23224; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:19:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fs107 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA23219; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:19:25 -0500 Received: by fs107 with Microsoft Mail id <01BABFCE.1A529D60@fs107>; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:19:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Shaw, Chris" To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Serial data protocol on production autos. Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:19:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, I am trying to get information on the ODB-II communication protocol used= in new production autos. I would like to write code to monitor/modify v= ehicle functions. There are tools available which do this, however, I am= an engineer and thought it would be interesting to do it on my own. =20 There are some ISO standards on "low-speed serial data communication" us= ed in vehicles, but they are very expensive, and I am not sure if it's th= e information I need. Any information would be helpful. If this request doesn't fit into your= group, I apologize. Thank you in advance, Chris Shaw. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 14:54:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA23353; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:39:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA23348; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:39:03 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA28786 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 Dec 95 07:39:01 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA17917; Fri, 1 Dec 95 07:39:00 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA28744; Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:38:59 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05105; Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:33:57 CST Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:33:57 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512011433.AA05105@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Getting Started Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Quick questions for everyone here. I am new to the list, so some of > this might have been covered else were. Welcome to the list. Quite a few people have vastly different idea's of what to use, and so on. Best is to use what YOU are comfortable with! Sorry, just no correct answer on this one (80535 -8031 code-, 64180 -Z80 code-, 8096, 68HC11, 68HC16 are just a few of the possibilities). Some of the people on this list came to the conclusion the 68332 was the uC to use, forming a seperate mailing list titled "efi332" also served by the same machine. I'd highly recommend using the majordomo command for the list and getting all the archieves to read through first. Probably answer a good number of your questions. [John just posted that, but if you missed it: send the word "help" to majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu for more infomation] Check the following www sites for more information: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi *diy_efi* http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/ *efi322* other neat sites: http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124476/vehicles/3T-GTEfi.html http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling For MOTORCYCLE's I would be hestitant of fitting a bike with any system until it is 100% debugged. Having an engine sieze at 70 mph could be FATAL! No fun at all going down at that speed, leathers or not! With any "test mule" always realize there is a good chance of damaging the engine due to too lean, wrong advance curves, etc during debug. Once again I'm being pessimistic, but you should be aware of that if the vehicle is a "daily driver". If you read back through the old email messages it should be clear that everyone has a different background, and can bring "their piece of the puzzle" to the table. ;-) Also quite a few work in the industry in same manner, and are restricted by "non disclosure" agreements, but are more than willing to help with GENERAL questions. Hmmm.... John & the rest of the list. Probably would be nice to set up a "Welcome packet" of information to send to people when they subscribe. Listing the "Purpose and Scope" of the list, and handy references. Hey, we've all been there wondering "how does that work", so nothing wrong with that. Cheers, Tom Walter '67 Datsun 2000 '72 Datsun 510 ("test mule" to be ;-) Austin, TX. '95 Ford Aerostar P.S. Please sign your name at the bottom of posting. Some mail servers have just the "from diy_efi" so you can not tell who posted the artice. Also, please, when posting a follow up - quote just one or two lines to jog our memory. ;-) Thanks! From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 15:01:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA23408; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:52:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA23403; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:52:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199512011452.JAA23403@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA199959521; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:52:01 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: More Inductive Pickup To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 9:52:01 EST In-Reply-To: <199511302239.JAA22410@helena.rdt.monash.edu.au>; from "Brendan Simon" at Dec 01, 95 9:39 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ > I was told that an inductive pickup (from a timing light) will ~ > produce enough current to flash an LED. I have not tried this yet, ~ > however, I am wondering if the pulse width from a spark is long ~ > enough to "see". What is an "average" length of a spark? ~ > ~ ~ I found that the voltage was enough to light a LED most of the time. ~ I used a wave shaping circuit (AM radio detector like) and then through ~ a opto-coupler. This worked for some motorbikes and not others. Something ~ to do with lower compression I think. ~ Well, last night I hooked an LED across the inductive pickup probe (as per Wayne Glasser), and hooked it up to a plug wire, and it works, at least for a stock GM HEI. It was dark outside, and one can see the faint pulses from the LED, which got brighter when the car was revved up, I think helping my eye persistance. What was interesting to note was at idle, every once in a while, the light flashed a "tad" brighter for one pulse, and this corresponded to a RPM sputter (I have a somewhat long duration cam installed). The opto-coupler is a nice idea in that it adds another layer of isolation (separate from the pickup itself) for the logic-level circuit. The light was very faint on a garden-variety LED, and I do not know if the LED in an opto-coupler will conduct the phototransistor very hard. But there are opto units with Darlington phototransistors, and even some with Schmidtt trigger outputs. Of course, hooking this rig up to an MSD ignition would count every spark pulse (something like 20/spark event at idle) and screw up any counting logic circuit. One fix is a retriggerable monostable, like a 555, with a one-shot period slightly longer than period between MSD pulses. I now can play... - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 16:08:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA23934; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:47:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA23929; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:47:49 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <188755-2>; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:48:09 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06786; Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:39:36 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006783; Fri Dec 1 10:39:16 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29686; Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:46:01 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA07965; Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:46:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:46:13 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9512011546.AA07965@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: More Inductive Pickup Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Of course, hooking this rig up to an MSD ignition would count > every spark pulse (something like 20/spark event at idle) and > screw up any counting logic circuit. One fix is a retriggerable > monostable, like a 555, with a one-shot period slightly longer than > period between MSD pulses. If you're using an MSD, don't measure the output from the box, measure the input (which is already at a much lower level and is a single pulse). I talked to MSD and posted a description of the input signal. It'll be somewhere back in previous messages on this list. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 17:01:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA24476; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:45:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail13.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA24471; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:45:10 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us1rmc.bb.dec.com by mail13.digital.com; (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA01653; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:44:19 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us1rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA06817; Fri, 1 Dec 95 11:18:18 -0500 Message-Id: <9512011618.AA06817@us1rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us1rmc.enet; Fri, 1 Dec 95 11:41:17 EST Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 11:41:17 EST To: diy_efi Cc: carterh@crl.com Apparently-To: carterh@crl.com, diy_efi Subject: Safety while working with spark plug wires Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com wrote: >> At idle speeds, most modern ignition systems should produce a spark >> that jumps an air gap of at least 3/8" and displays a solid blue >> color. Be careful doing this by removing a spark plug wire while >> the engine is running because you could get zapped, > -could- get zapped? > A GM HEI got me once working around my distributor machine. The tightness > across my chest was angina, lasted a week, and I never spoke a word about > it to my wife, Lynn. Please don't mess around with this stuff. >> [You could get zapped if] >> you remove it [spark plug wire at the boot] with one bare hand and >> brace yourself to a metal part of the car with the other hand. >> Inexpensive variable air gaps, that connect the end of a spark plug >> wire inside its boot to ground via the air gap, are available. > Just put a spark plug at the end of the cable and lay the plug on a > grounded surface. And don't touch it. Please be careful. > --Carter Simply laying the plug on a grounded surface isn't a safe enough way to look for a spark between the center and side electrodes. 1. The spark plug body to grounded metal connection is by gravity alone -- which could lead to high resistance and inaccurate readings. 2. When the engine starts, the vibration could bounce the spark plug to hanging in free air. Then, 40,000 volts would be looking for the nearest ground and could find it at any number of undesirable places such as fuel rails. I recommend using a short wire with a pair of alligator clips to connect the side electrode to a good ground *AND* to hold the spark plug in a safe place. Better yet, NAPA and other stores sell a special spark plug with a wide center electrode/side electrode gap and an alligator clip riveted to the shell of the plug. This clip both gives a good ground connection and holds the plug in place. It costs a very reasonable $7.00 or so. Carter is absolutely right. High voltage in modern ignition systems (and even in my 1940 Ford with its 6-volt coil and breaker points) is something to treat with a great deal of respect and planning. It is dangerous, especially when passing from one hand through the heart to the other and grounded hand. Other comments about high-voltage safety are always welcome. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 17:40:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA24895; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:24:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail13.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA24890; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:24:10 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us1rmc.bb.dec.com by mail13.digital.com; (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA10060; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:21:14 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us1rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA09283; Fri, 1 Dec 95 11:52:08 -0500 Message-Id: <9512011652.AA09283@us1rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us1rmc.enet; Fri, 1 Dec 95 12:18:12 EST Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 12:18:12 EST To: diy_efi Cc: shaw_c@fs107.npt.nuwc.navy.mil Apparently-To: shaw_c@fs107.npt.nuwc.navy.mil, diy_efi Subject: RE: Serial data protocol on production autos Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I am trying to get information on the ODB-II communication protocol used > in new production autos. "New production" includes a few 1995 model year (MY) and all 1996 MY automobiles and light trucks. > I would like to write code to monitor/modify vehicle functions. > There are tools available which do this, however, I am > an engineer and thought it would be interesting to do it on my own. Welcome to the club. I don't feel like paying Snap-on Tools or other companies $1,000 and up for their products. I'm trying to monitor (but not modify) my 1993 Ford Escort's non-OBD-II data stream using a connection to a laptop PC. > There are some ISO standards on "low-speed serial data communication" > used in vehicles, but they are very expensive, and I am not sure if > it's the information I need. I believe the standards are largely those of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has decreed to all manufacturers that they will follow these SAE standards as they open their OBD-II emissions-related data streams to scan tool manufacturers (Snap-on Tools, etc.) and to "any person engaged in the repairing or servicing of motor vehicles or motor vehicle engines." It turns out that "emissions-related data" includes most, if not all, data related to engine performance. It does not include the data stream that Mercedes computers send to electric motors to raise the convertible top automatically when rain falls on leather seats ;-). I bought the standards manual from the SAE. It cost $65.00 (ouch!) but it contains vast amounts of information that is extremely helpful to people such as you and other people on this mailing list and me. The SAE is in Warrendale, PA with a 412 area code. They accept plastic and will send you HS-3000 (or is it HS-3500?) in a couple of days. The manual has a title with words about OBD-II diagnostics for cars and light trucks. > Any information would be helpful. If this request doesn't fit into your= > group, I apologize. Hope this information helps. Yes, I think your request fits into this group because of its advanced do-it-yourself nature involving automobile engine electronics even if the request isn't explicitly about fuel injection. > Thank you in advance, > Chris Shaw. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 20:59:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA25909; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:40:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA25902; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:40:03 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 01 Dec 95 15:39:26 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03000; Fri, 1 Dec 95 15:41:36 EST Message-Id: <9512012041.AA03000@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:46:44 +0000 Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com > Carter is absolutely right. High voltage in modern ignition systems > (and even in my 1940 Ford with its 6-volt coil and breaker points) > is something to treat with a great deal of respect and planning. It > is dangerous, especially when passing from one hand through the heart > to the other and grounded hand. > > Other comments about high-voltage safety are always welcome. Yourself isn't the only one at risk. I have a '84 Chrysler Laser turbo with a totally electronic dash. I was doing a compression check and had disconnected the coil lead from the dist. cap, without grounding the HV lead. What I got was a high voltage kickback into my electrical system. I didn't seem to do any major damage, (I've put about 140,000 miles on it since then.) but I was surprised that - according to my trip odometer - I'd traveled more than fifteen thousand miles while parked in my garage. The main odometer had gained more than nine thousand miles. It could of easily fried just about everything electronic in the car. --- David Parrish 220,000 miles... Corrected. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 21:10:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA25975; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:00:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from psyche.zynet.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA25970; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:00:22 -0500 Received: from cooper.zynet.co.uk (cooper.zynet.co.uk [193.116.171.155]) by psyche.zynet.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA02929 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:00:04 GMT Received: by localhost from cooper.zynet.co.uk (router,WinSmtp -Win32- V1.07beta1.5.s(unregistered)); Fri, 01 Dec 1995 20:54:03 Received: from cooper.zynet.co.uk by cooper.zynet.co.uk (193.116.171.155::mail daemon,WinSmtp -Win32- V1.07beta1.5.s); Fri, 01 Dec 1995 20:53:13 X-Sender: Mike Rigby-Jones X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mike Rigby-Jones Subject: efi on ancient engine Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 20:54:03 X-MailDaemon: Message-Id: <19951201205403.0068ba5d.in@cooper.zynet.co.uk> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I don't know if any of you guys have had any experience with the A-series engine as used in the mini. For those of you who haven't its an ancient design with an iron block, three bearing crank and a five port head (two siamesed inlet ports, one siamesed exhaust port and two single exhaust port). In order to get any reasonable power out of it the cam has to be of silly duration (300 degrees plus) with huge compression ratios (13:1). The latest cam design is known as a scatter profile. This has different timing on the centre two cylinders to the outer two to compensate for the differences in the ports (inners have siamesed exhaust). What I want to know is does anyone manufacture an efi system that can give differnt fuel delivery and spark timings to different cylinders? (The distributor gives timming scatter but its not very predictable ;-) On a more technical note, I have had a look at the diy-efi system running on the PC. This clarified the general operation of fuel injection considerably and I would quite like to have a go at a stand alone system. However it is mapped ignition that really appeals to me and I am unsure as to how this operates. Does it use hardware timers as per fuel injection but with software to convert angles to time? Any help on the above would be greatly appreciated or even a pointer to the best book on the subject (preferably something reasonably technical) Cheers all Mike Rigby-Jones ====================================== | A tuned engine is like sex... | | A few seconds of frenzied activity | | and you know it's gonna cost you...| ====================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 22:22:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA26663; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:12:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA26652; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:12:26 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id OAA01591 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:59:01 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Fri, 1 Dec 95 15:00 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:59:10 EDT Message-Id: <9511012159.AA16466@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: RE: More Inductive Pickup To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:59:06 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9511302138.AA25745@us4rmc.pko.dec.com>; from "m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com" at Nov 30, 95 4:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Inexpensive pen-size detectors are available from (gasp) J.C. Whitney > and Snap-on Tools and other automobile tool suppliers. Holding these > detectors near any spark plug wire will show the presence of high > voltage as a flashing light inside the detector. Hey, a light bulb just went on in my head (sorry). These pen size high voltage detectors consist simply of a standard NE2 type neon light bulb. One lead of the bulb is grounded (or tied through the metal case to your body, which acts as an antenna). The presence of high voltage nearby is enough to ionize the neon in the bulb and light it up... so why not optically couple a phototransistor to a standard neon bulb by heat- shrinking the two together, and, voila, instant pickup. One lead of the neon would have to be tied to circuit ground to provide a return path for the ionization current, the other lead is simply cut off. The photo- transistor could be simply wired as an open collector switch, tied via pullup resistor to your input. 2 wires, simple as hell (if it works) Haven't actually tried this, but it should work, and for about 25 cents worth of parts. Well, that's my two bits worth... dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 22:35:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA27064; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:30:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bock.ucs.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27057; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:30:32 -0500 Received: from maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca by bock.ucs.ualberta.ca with ESMTP (8.6.5/UA3.0.0June95) id PAA00596 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:25:48 -0700 Received: from gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (root@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.98.19]) by maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA35576 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:30:19 -0700 Received: by gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (8.6.9) id OAA137140; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:41:05 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:41:05 -0700 (MST) From: Matthew Beaubien X-Sender: mbeaubie@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection In-Reply-To: <199512011355.FAA01727@post.everett.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Johnny wrote: > I think if you build a high compression engine designed exclusively for > propane use, it could be a real killer. Just think about how much bang you > can get out of 12:1 compared to the 9:1 we are forced to use for running > that swamp water they dish out as gasoline. This is a little off topic, but I have a question as to how much power would be increased by increasing the cr from 9:1 to 12:1. I have a formula which states that the percentage increase would be: (1-new_cr^-.4 ) (------------ - 1 ) * 100 (1-old_cr^-.4 ) Pluggin the numbers in shows a gain of 7.7%. This doesn't really seem like a whole bunch. Why do people run 12:1 compression ratios, having to use avgas and/or octane booster, when they can run ~10:1 on pump gas and lose only a few hp. Matt. 2 '71 510's (street cars) 1 '77 Civic 1200 (1.3L racecar) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 1 22:59:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA27233; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:50:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27228; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:50:17 -0500 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.aj21741; 1 Dec 95 22:43 GMT Received: from clintsmc.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id sg.aa20561; 1 Dec 95 22:40 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:16:06 GMT From: Clint Sharp Message-Id: <457@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> To: diy_efi Cc: carterh@crl.com Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS Lines: 17 X-SMTP-Posting-Host: clintsmc.demon.co.uk [Fri, 1 Dec 95 22:40:54 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Fri, 1 Dec 95 22:43:17 GMT] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In your message dated Friday 1, December 1995 you wrote : > plug in a safe place. Better yet, NAPA and other stores sell a special > spark plug with a wide center electrode/side electrode gap and an > alligator clip riveted to the shell of the plug. This clip both > gives a good ground connection and holds the plug in place. It costs > a very reasonable $7.00 or so. Clamp a crocodile clip to an old plug with a jubilee (British name?) hose clip, really handy and dirt cheap as well as safe. Had one in my box for about three years now, ever since I got my first shock off an MG Midget ignition system (Points and coil, no electronics, which probably explains why I'm still here) -- We apologise for the lack of coherent humorous comments. Normal service will be resumed shortly. clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 05:20:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA27966; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 05:10:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA27961; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 00:10:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id RAA21923; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:57:24 +1300 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199512020457.RAA21923@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:57:23 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <457@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> from "Clint Sharp" at Dec 1, 95 08:16:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 671 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Pulling plug wires off with the engine running is something that I do reasonably often to find weak or missing cylinders. This is mostly on older points type igntion where the leads are often dirty too. Side note: Dirty leads cause no end of bother when there's a bit of dew about. Far easier for a spark to go down the outside of an oil/water covered lead than through the carbon center. Discovering this also causes pain. My method for yanking leads off is to pull them off with a jumper cable. Clip the other end to a good earth and hang on to the insulated handle, clip it onto the boot and pull it off. I like the idea of the plug with a hose clip though. Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 06:59:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA28109; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:48:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA28104; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:48:31 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis0-p10.everett.net [205.134.193.74]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02981 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:49:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:49:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020749.XAA02981@post.everett.net> X-Sender: allnight@everett.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Johnny Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:41 PM 12/1/95 -0700, you wrote: >This is a little off topic, but I have a question as to how much power >would be increased by increasing the cr from 9:1 to 12:1. > >I have a formula which states that the percentage increase would be: > >(1-new_cr^-.4 ) >(------------ - 1 ) * 100 >(1-old_cr^-.4 ) > >Pluggin the numbers in shows a gain of 7.7%. This doesn't really seem like a >whole bunch. hmm, 590hp plus 7.7% = 631hp Which would you rather have? >Why do people run 12:1 compression ratios, having to use avgas >and/or octane booster, when they can run ~10:1 on pump gas and lose only a >few hp. Your right, it is a little off topic, but at the risk of being rude I will briefly comment that it is not only the gain in power from the compression itself, which at 7.7% is subsantial (if that is indeed what it really is), but the main reason is that the crazier the cam timing, the more compression ratio is recomended for it to work right. If you put a cam with a duration of 255 degrees @ .050 lift and a total valve lift of .690 with 102 degree lobe center into a 9:1 engine, you will be sadly dissapointed in the way it runs, if it runs at all. To extract the most power, you have to adjust your torque curve to as high as your engine will bear. To do that you have to run the crazy roller cam. To do that you have to run a compression ratio of 12:1 or more. To do that you have to run race gas, alcohol, or propane... etc. Now your starting to make some power. Of course there's alway hope for that 9:1 engine if you add a blower to it. The point of my earlier reply to the tax/fuel price/emissions issue was that you can end up with a win win situation by going to propane... and while you are doing that you might as well take advantage of being able to run the highest compression ratio you can get away with, just like you do by running swamp water in your 10:1 engine. If you design the thing for propane, you would be lame to not design it for at least 12:1-13:1. -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 14:10:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA28562; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:52:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from walnut.holli.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28557; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:52:50 -0500 Received: from kok-ts2-05.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tLsKt-0009pNC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:50 EST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:50 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: 68HC11 and MAF sensor X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My second question why do they convert to freq, just using >the 0 to 5 volts output >would be easier wouldn't it. > using 8 an bit a/d probably wouldn't give enough resolution. The noisy environment would make it difficult to use a higher resolution a/d effectively. absolute accuracy is also a problem because of unit to unit a/d and wiring variability. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 14:32:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA28652; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:17:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA28647; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:17:44 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA03823 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 Dec 95 07:17:42 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA10602; Sat, 2 Dec 95 07:17:40 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12285; Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:17:39 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05887; Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:12:37 CST Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:12:37 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512021412.AA05887@roadster.autotest> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Getting Started (FAQ ver. 0.1) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu For those looking to "Getting started on this project": To begin with: KEEP IT SIMPLE! The first fuel injection systems were analog designs, no microprocessors were even used! They were not optimized for the best results, but worked well and were pretty reliable! [411 VW with the D-jetronic was probably the first system I came across. Even had an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to play with!] The later L-jetronic went with some pretty simple uC's with very little code to them. Inputs were air flow, air temp, water temp, two throttle position switches (idle and WOT), and battery voltage. Closed loop design (with a EGO sensor) came later. Most of the OLDER control systems are pretty straight forward MATH! FUEL PULSE WIDTH = injector open time + air flow + temp compensation +battery_voltage Each fuel width is triggered of a engine cycle (ignition), which takes care of the rpm. The amount of fuel is determined by the amount of time to open/close an injectors (which depends on the battery voltage), The amount of air entering the engine, and the temperature of the engine. [There is also the method of just DETERMINING the amount of air entering the engine by observing the engine vacuum and not using a air vane style measurement. Just easiest to base your STARTING system on what hardware maybe common to your target engine] Start with a simple BATCH fired injection system, and take it from there. All the later & more sophisticated systems started with this simple idea from the days of the ANALOG boxes. Obvious is a curve is not linear, then a look up table (map) makes more sense to use rather than doing a whole bunch of math. Once you have the basic system RUNNING, then I would look at adding the ignition controls to the system [ignition information is already available to the system, just have a "loop back" on the original system that uses the stock ignition trigger to fire the coil. Later on use a relay (normally closed to function as a "limp home" mode) under a uC control to fire an "optimized timing signal" with knock sensor, and load (vacuum/boost) sensors. A rough example of the development cycle: SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT: STAGE ZERO: System requirements! This is the MOST demanding task, and should not be overlooked. Put it into writing. List your goals, time line, and go from there! Purpose: determine goal and what is needed to get there! What is YOUR goal? What is the maximum amount of fuel required for WOT? Determine MAXIMUM size of the injectors (+20%) What range of ignition advance (start & final for rpm and load sensor) Determine what hardware will be needed for the engine in question. (TBI, Port, etc) Start getting the parts & pieces together. EMI, RFI, LOAD DUMPS, and other "unknowns". They exist and should be planned for! (metal enclosure, filtered input and output signals, over voltage protection] STAGE ONE: Basic fuel control. Purpose: "learning to walk" GOAL: Drive vehicle around the block without any engine fires or meltdowns! Basic control: Cold Start enrichment device (injects extra fuel timed by a "temperature sensitive relay). Open loop system with following inputs: air flow air temp water temp rpm signal (ignition trigger) Electric fuel pump relay controlled by oil pressure, while engine is running. (Safety first!) OBSERVE: Exhaust with a HEGO sensor & bar graph display. STAGE TWO: Fine Tune the fuel control Purpose: "learning to walk quickly" GOAL: Start to tweak the system for maximum economy & power STAGE ONE, PLUS: idle contact switch (software for idle) WOT contact switch (software to go "open loop rich" at WOT) cold start enrichment via the injectors: system will require a onboard timer. Hence the one circuit that is left running while the ignition is "off". switched ignition starter engaged STAGE THREE: Closed loop operation. Purpose: increase fuel economy for cruise conditions. Goal: adjust fuel mixture based on the EGO signal EGO added. Software to DATALOG and output sensor conditions. 3.5 Limp home modes fully debugged! (i.e. a 555 timer fired off the engine rpm. Runs like trash, gets you home, hint: rich mixture is less likely to warp the head!) Simple diagnostics to check for open and shorted sensors. and parameters that changed TOO QUICKLY. 3.6 Throttle position sensor. Improved throttle response to changing "stomping on it" to pass. STAGE FOUR: Development of the ignition control hardware. Purpose: basic ignition control. Observe time duration between ignition events to determine the engine rpm. Trigger the ignition (SPDT relay). Use a STOCK OEM map (mechanical distributor) as a starting point. Engine vacuum sensor to adjust ignition timing (per stock specs). STAGE FIVE: Enhaunced Ignition control. Software changes to the system to MAP the response. Knock sensor added to additional control. STAGE SIX: Full load condition. More software, based on IDLE AND WOT switches. Wheel sensor - speed information (if WOT == 1, and SPEED is decreasing... back off ignition! How many of you pull trailers!) STAGE SEVEN: Getting there! Ignition timing now using FULL CONTROL. Software to optimize each cylinder with coil per cylinder: Ignition timing wheel (i.e. Bosch 58 tooth) Coil per cylinder technology, [I'll use a double ended coil, to allow a simpler LIMP HOME mode operation on a 4 cyl] STAGE EIGHT: Whew! Adaptive technology. An exercise left for the student ;-) Your features can really go from here, thermocouples on all the exhaust ports BEFORE you begin may not be a bad idea at all. A simple DATALOG system to record parameters (water temp, exhaust temps, length of time the engine has been running, etc) maybe a good way to start this and get your feet wet BEFORE building your own engine controller. I realize for some on the list, this is really too basic. But with the understanding of "How do I get started", this should help get you one your way to THINKING about the system. Ok, that about wraps it for the first pass of this spec. Any and all comments welcome and appreciated: email to: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com Cheers, Tom Walter Austin, TX. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 23:13:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA00228; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:57:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailhost.ksu.ksu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00223; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:57:28 -0500 Received: from nbc.ksu.ksu.edu (dmpat@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhost.ksu.ksu.edu (8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA29867; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:57:27 -0600 Received: by nbc.ksu.ksu.edu (8.6.12/1.34) id QAA12609; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:57:24 -0600 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:57:23 -0600 (CST) From: David Patrick To: Steve Baldwin cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires In-Reply-To: <199512020457.RAA21923@kcbbs.gen.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Come on, what is all this whining about a simple little "jolt" every now and then! Why not be a man and just take it! I also believe that vice grips and duct tape can fix anything! __________________________________________________ David M. Patrick KSU Formula SAE dmpat@ksu.ksu.edu Formula Team Leader (913) 537-7630 Kansas State University 1838 Anderson #1 Mechanical Engineering Manhatan, KS 66502 __________________________________________________ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 23:24:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00254; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:11:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00246; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:11:35 -0500 Received: from dialup29.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tM13x-0000SjC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:57 PM 12/2/95 +1300, you wrote: >Pulling plug wires off with the engine running is something that I do >reasonably often to find weak or missing cylinders. This is mostly on >older points type igntion where the leads are often dirty too. >Side note: Dirty leads cause no end of bother when there's a bit of dew >about. Far easier for a spark to go down the outside of an oil/water >covered lead than through the carbon center. Discovering this also >causes pain. > >My method for yanking leads off is to pull them off with a jumper cable. >Clip the other end to a good earth and hang on to the insulated handle, >clip it onto the boot and pull it off. > > watch out for your catalyts assuming you (still?) have one. (mine gets looked for every two years - im in la california) this is a good way to overheat it and start a fire if there is anything combustible around the cat. Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.4.4 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 23:24:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00266; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:11:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00260; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:11:39 -0500 Received: from dialup29.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tM13w-0000SXC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:41 AM 12/1/95 EST, you wrote: > >Other comments about high-voltage safety are always welcome. > >Marll McDonald KB1AGM >m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com > - don't just think about yourself, you've got time and $$$ in the efi system as well a buddy of mine had his entire electronic dashboard killed ($2200) in his 280Z when a mechanic left a high tension wire ( that WAS connected to the engine at both ends) lying across a wiring harness that went to the panel computer.. fortunately, his lawyer came through.... Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.4.4 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 2 23:24:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00261; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:11:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00253; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:11:37 -0500 Received: from dialup29.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tM13t-0000SUC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 15:09 PST X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: RE: More Inductive Pickup Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >\/ Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca /\ wrote: > These pen size high >voltage detectors consist simply of a standard NE2 type neon light bulb. >One lead of the bulb is grounded (or tied through the metal case to your >body, which acts as an antenna). The presence of high voltage nearby is >enough to ionize the neon in the bulb and light it up... so why not >optically couple a phototransistor to a standard neon bulb by heat- >shrinking the two together, and, voila, instant pickup. >-- > There used to be an old (i still have one somewhere) Neon timing light that was wired using HV ign. cable in series with the spark plug. It put out a dim red flash that was fast enough to "stop" a timing mark but you couldn't see it unless you worked with the hood down at midnight with no moon during a power failure. (and any leaks would shock the living daylights out of you....... :-0 ) bottom line - this would indicate that response time would be sufficient - ie fast enough. lurker and occasional contributor. ( i am a rocket engine sensor physicist. a rocket engine is basically two large fuel injectors and a nozzle. 85 Ford ltd 3.8 ltr cfi, 89 festiva with oldfangled carb Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.4.4 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 3 16:32:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA01516; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:23:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA01511; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:23:37 -0500 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.ad22901; 3 Dec 95 16:18 GMT Received: from clintsmc.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id msg.aa08200; 3 Dec 95 16:17 GMT Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:59:08 GMT From: Clint Sharp Message-Id: <459@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS Lines: 18 X-SMTP-Posting-Host: clintsmc.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 16:18:01 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 16:18:54 GMT] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In your message dated Thursday 30, November 1995 you wrote : > Here in Arkansas, unleaded regular runs about 97 cents per gallon. > Propane runs $1.50. Diesel runs around a dollar per gallon. > > Regardless of any inherent advantages of gaseous vs liquid fuels, Otto > or Diesel cycles, the major player continues to be the tax burden on the > fuel. More than half the pump price of gasoline is tax. Don't upset me any more guys, I'm weeping into my coffee as it is. Here in the UK we pay almost 3 pounds for a gallon of leaded (2.88 at my local station) 97 cents for a gallon is the stuff that dreams are made of. I have considered propane a couple of times, can it produce usable power on a small 4 cylinder engine? -- We apologise for the lack of coherent humorous comments. Normal service will be resumed shortly. clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 3 21:35:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA02231; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:27:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA02226; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:27:19 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id OAA04142 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:14:09 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sun, 3 Dec 95 14:16 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sun, 3 Dec 95 14:06:07 EDT Message-Id: <9511032106.AA16494@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 3 Dec 95 14:06:03 MDT From: dn Cc: allnight@everett.net In-Reply-To: <199512011355.FAA01727@post.everett.net>; from "Johnny" at Dec 1, 95 5:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > hehe, that's the best thing about propane. In the Seattle area unleaded > regular is about $1.05 to $1.15, Propane at the pump (road tax applied) Up here in the Great White North, unleaded premium is $CDN2.40 per gallon, (and Alberta has the cheapest gas in Canada!), while propane at the pump is just over a dollar. Mind you, our gallon is a little bigger and our dollar is a little smaller... > fuel it's only $.75 per gal, delivered now, pay later. I have a hose on my > tank for filling... uh .. er.. my tractor, ya that's it, my tractor. I like your attitude... > I have been experimenting with trying to get the stuff to stay in a liquid > state all the way to the injector, off and on, for quite a while now. I > could never quite get the line pressure to be stable enough under varying > throttle conditions. Part of the trouble was I was not able to get the right > injectors. I am thinking now that I can just pump up the tank with nitrogen > to boost the tank pressure to about 300-400psi or so, regulate it through a > liquid type high pressure regulator to get the line pressure stablized at > about 150psi or so, go with the high pressure injectors you guy have > mentioned here, sized as tiny as possible so that I can get fairly good > metering at idle. I don't think pressurizing the tank with nitrogen will get you anywhere, the pressure will still decrease rapidly as the propane is used up and the fuel volume in the tank decreases. Also, the standard filling equipment probably won't be able to push fuel in at that pressure, (you wouldn't be able to fill your, uhh, tractor off the tank anymore) and the propane system tank, lines, valves, etc. are only rated at 250PSI test... I been doin some thinkin on this over the past couple of days, and I think we may be approaching the problem bass ackwards... With the standard EFI system, the fuel pressure is regulated in order to make injector on-time calculations easier. Since the injector is really just an orifice, the pressure needs to be constant in order to maintain a predictable flow across the orifice. Most EFI systems have the fuel pressure regulator tied into manifold pressure, so that the fuel pressure remains at a set amount above manifold pressure regardless of throttle opening. All this is done so that the computer doesn't need to dink with flow metering or additional calculations to come up with injector pulse width. Now, if we were to plumb the injector directly onto the liquid line from the tank, and put a pressure transducer on the fuel line so's we would know the fuel pressure at all times, we could theoretically compensate the injector pulse width to give the right fuel flow for the instantaneous line pressure that we have... voila - no need for messy regulators, nitrogen, or any complicated mechanical stuff. Since (last time I checked, anyway) propane follows the laws of physics wrt flow across orifices, it should be relatively simple to have the computer compensate for existing pressure. Whaddya think? Am I out to lunch, or did I stumble onto something here... Still have the problem of where to find the proper injector for the system, though. Stock injectors are all made to run at 20-50 PSI, I think liquid propane would blow it up real good... Might have to have 2 injectors, a tiny one for idle/cruise, and a big nasty one for WOT. The system I have in mind would be a TBI type system, I'm not sure you could do this with a port injection system unless you had a really big engine... dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 3 22:01:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA02282; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:55:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA02277; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:55:39 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis0-p10.everett.net [205.134.193.74]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05170 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:57:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:57:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199512032257.OAA05170@post.everett.net> X-Sender: allnight@everett.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Johnny Subject: Re: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> I have been experimenting with trying to get the stuff to stay in a liquid >> state all the way to the injector, off and on, for quite a while now. I >> could never quite get the line pressure to be stable enough under varying >> throttle conditions. Part of the trouble was I was not able to get the right >> injectors. I am thinking now that I can just pump up the tank with nitrogen >> to boost the tank pressure to about 300-400psi or so, regulate it through >>a >> liquid type high pressure regulator to get the line pressure stablized at >> about 150psi or so, go with the high pressure injectors you guy have >> mentioned here, sized as tiny as possible so that I can get fairly good >> metering at idle. >I don't think pressurizing the tank with nitrogen will get you >anywhere, the pressure will still decrease rapidly as the propane is >used up and the fuel volume in the tank decreases. Also, the standard >filling equipment probably won't be able to push fuel in at that >pressure, (you wouldn't be able to fill your, uhh, tractor off the >tank anymore) and the propane system tank, lines, valves, etc. are >only rated at 250PSI test... I meant use a tiny little nitrogen bottle with a regulator that feed into the propane tank while in use. When refilling the propane tank, the nitrogen is disconnected. Of course you couldn't use a standard propane tank for this, but I didn't think that was that big of a deal. >I been doin some thinkin on this over the past couple of days, and I >think we may be approaching the problem bass ackwards... With the >standard EFI system, the fuel pressure is regulated in order to make >injector on-time calculations easier. Since the injector is really >just an orifice, the pressure needs to be constant in order to >maintain a predictable flow across the orifice. Most EFI systems have >the fuel pressure regulator tied into manifold pressure, so that the >fuel pressure remains at a set amount above manifold pressure >regardless of throttle opening. All this is done so that the computer >doesn't need to dink with flow metering or additional calculations to >come up with injector pulse width. > >Now, if we were to plumb the injector directly onto the liquid line >from the tank, and put a pressure transducer on the fuel line so's we >would know the fuel pressure at all times, we could theoretically >compensate the injector pulse width to give the right fuel flow for >the instantaneous line pressure that we have... voila - no need for >messy regulators, nitrogen, or any complicated mechanical stuff. Since >(last time I checked, anyway) propane follows the laws of physics wrt >flow across orifices, it should be relatively simple to have the >computer compensate for existing pressure. Whaddya think? Am I out >to lunch, or did I stumble onto something here... I like it. By far the simplest way to go, and it would seem to be the most accurate in that you aren't required to meet a certain pressure all of the time but instead just compensate for what it may be. >Still have the problem of where to find the proper injector for the >system, though. Stock injectors are all made to run at 20-50 PSI, I >think liquid propane would blow it up real good... Might have to have >2 injectors, a tiny one for idle/cruise, and a big nasty one for WOT. >The system I have in mind would be a TBI type system, I'm not sure you >could do this with a port injection system unless you had a really big >engine... We could go to staged injectors if we had to, but as long as the line pressure stayed within a fairly narrow range I don't see why we would have to do staging anymore than you would have to with gas. The key is the injector itself. Getting one that will handle the line pressure and also getting one that is small enough to supply just enough fuel at full power. Granted, I am sure we will see a drop in line pressure at WOT, but If the lines were sized properly, and the fuel rails (if we used fuel rails) were large, acting as a fuel manifold, I would think we could get pretty close on getting the pressure at the nozzel to equal the pressure at the bottle. Then as long as our transducer was at the fuel rail, we should be able to compensate accurately enough. Great idea! I have been digging all of the hardware I have out from the last time I kicked this idea around. I still have to follow up on trying to find the correct nozzels though. -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 01:38:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA02866; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:28:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02861; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:28:37 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id MAA11235 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:28:15 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199512040128.MAA11235@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:28:15 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <951130070205_61588787@mail04.mail.aol.com> from "LotusM50@aol.com" at Nov 30, 95 07:02:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2825 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everyone, Bonn Macy and others have questioned the use of propane and CNG, > > Speaking of CNG and propane systems, could anyone give me a quick rundown on > what is involved with a CNG injection (or carburetor) system in a car > compared with a gasoline system? I would also be interested in any energy > efficency and economic issues invovled with CNG relative to gasoline. > > Would a CNG system designed from a clean sheet of paper be different than a > CNG conversion system? What advantages would there be? > > Thanks, > > -Bonn Macy > CNG has several major advantages over petrol and some major disadvantages. Its main disadvantages are mainly due to being stored as a gas, leading to large, heavy, high pressure tanks and limited range. Distribution (at least at high pressures) is also an issue and from what some of our research has uncovered, gas composition can be a problem. CNG is anywhere from 80 - 95% methane which has an octane rating of 130. To combat the limited range, much work has been done to increase the efficiency of the available fuel usage. Research in our labs at Uni has focussed on high turbulence (for better mixing) and high compression designs. The compression ratio of the base engine has been raised from 9:1 to nearly 16:1 and has been extensively tested in a taxi fleet. The peak thermodynamic engine efficiency has been raised from around 32% to over 40%. In one of our applications which operated at a more representative partial load condition, we attained near 50% increase in efficiency over the standard engine. The current system uses special injectors in place of the standard units, the original fuel rail and the original OEM computer recalibrated. Locally available LPG (used in a significant portion of the Australian car and truck fleet including all taxis) is roughly a 50/50 mix of propane and butane and has an octane rating just under 100. LPG injection is being trial by a South Australian company called Biocom. Their system uses modified Bosch injectors to allow the LPG to be fed to the base of the injector, while the petrol travels through its normal path. They use an efi pump immersed in the tank so that they can recirculate the LPG. There are many problems with the design, but they appear to have sufficient funding to continue research and trials. Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 05:13:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA03281; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:03:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA03276; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:03:18 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA07396 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:03:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:03:16 -0500 Message-ID: <951204000316_43466011@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Pressurizing the tank with nitrogen would be an effective tactic as long as the propane in the tank was liquid and the pickup was below the liquid level. A baffled tank would help this quite a bit if obtainable. Using the nitrogen to maintain a high constant pressure would increase the likelyhood of having liquid at the pickup. Venting the nitrogen prior to filling would remove the filling problem, although it would be worth calculating the volume of unburned hydrocarbons you would be putting into the atmosphere, this would be traded off against the garbage you didn't put into the air by burning gasoline. I don't have any experience with, but have read about the N2O guys using pulsed solenoids to ramp up the flow rate to soften the initial hit. You might look at the stuff they are using as far as solenoids and distribution systems. It may be possible to build a TBI system with their stuff. The computer compensation for pressure scheme sounds good. You could use a regulator to cut down on some of the dynamic range. For real power or efficiency with propane, the compression needs to be increased. Good Luck. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 05:45:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA03395; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:38:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA03390; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:38:51 -0500 Received: from dialup13.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tMTZi-0000VXC; Sun, 3 Dec 95 21:36 PST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Dec 95 21:36 PST X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re: Safety while working with spark plug wires Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 04:57 PM 12/2/95 -0600, you wrote: >Come on, what is all this whining about a simple little "jolt" every now >and then! Why not be a man and just take it! >__________________________________________________ > >David M. Patrick KSU Formula SAE > the last time i got one of your "little" jolts, i was knocked 6 feet and it took my heartbeat about 30 seconds to stabilize again - even now i have occasional racing heartbeat for no apparent reason and im only 38 (was about 24 when was looking for a loose plug wire on a running 73 dodge polara electronic ign. with a miss. one hand on the plug wire and the other on the fender = straight thru the chest. -) DONT TAKE THIS STUFF LIGHTLY. > I also believe that vice >grips and duct tape can fix anything! i find that a rolled up handerchief, making a piece of "rope" about a foot long can be safely used to handle a loose wire. BUT PUT YOUR OTHER HAND IN YOUR BACK POCKET AND KEEP IT THERE! (standard electricians trick for live wiring....) p.s. it was number 3 cylinder.). Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 10:08:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA03770; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:02:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA03761; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:02:04 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.124]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Mon, 4 Dec 95 21:01:48 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 21:01:48 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Subject: Re: Doug has no Power Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Doug, Please answer the following questions and I will see if I can help. (a)What size venturis do you have in your 48 Webers ? (b)Have you established that the ignition timing is correct (ie. the same as with Webers.)? (c)Following on from (b) have you tried different timing. (d)Please advise power for each 500 rpm for carb and injection. (e)Have you flowed the injectors to make sure they have the same flow? The 7 mm difference in length will not cause the problem you are experiencing. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design Sydney Australia From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 18:31:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA10317; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:17:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA10312; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:17:19 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.100]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA06313 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:19:03 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:19:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199512041919.LAA06313@post.everett.net> X-Sender: allnight@everett.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Johnny Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:03 AM 12/4/95 -0500, you wrote: >Pressurizing the tank with nitrogen would be an effective tactic as long as >the propane in the tank was liquid and the pickup was below the liquid level. > A baffled tank would help this quite a bit if obtainable. Using the >nitrogen to maintain a high constant pressure would increase the likelyhood >of having liquid at the pickup. Venting the nitrogen prior to filling would >remove the filling problem, although it would be worth calculating the volume >of unburned hydrocarbons you would be putting into the atmosphere, this would >be traded off against the garbage you didn't put into the air by burning >gasoline. This has crossed my mind. I thought of running 2 tanks in the vehicle. Run one all the way down till all there is, is nitrogen. Then switch to the other one, and fill the empty one up. It would seem that the nitrogen pressure over the propane would keep it in a liquid state all the way to the end allowing you to effectivly run it all the way out. Then when you purged the tank for filling, all you would get out is nitrogen... maybe a trace of propane, but not enough to worry about. The tank would have to be made special (I do these myself) and it would have a little baffling and a sump just like any liquid fuel tank does. The pickup would be at the bottom of the sump of course. The nitrogen would probably come from a 3000 psi scuba bottle, regulated to 300 psi or so. Would have to see what it cost for the nitrogen, but it would seem that it wouldn't add up to that much. >I don't have any experience with, but have read about the N2O guys using >pulsed solenoids to ramp up the flow rate to soften the initial hit. You >might look at the stuff they are using as far as solenoids and distribution >systems. It may be possible to build a TBI system with their stuff. > >The computer compensation for pressure scheme sounds good. You could use a >regulator to cut down on some of the dynamic range. I think it will take both a pressure head (like the N) and a liquid regulator (set to about 150psi or so) to get it to be stable enough. Then with the computer compensating for the small fluctuations that still exist, I think it is do-able. >For real power or efficiency with propane, the compression needs to be >increased. That's for sure. I have a set of 12.5:1's sitting right here. I guess I should start building the prototype engine and by the time I get done with the heavy stuff, the rest of you guys will have the '332 stuff just about ready for me to come and vulture on. -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 4 20:31:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA10955; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:13:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spook.cia.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA10949; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:13:15 -0500 Received: from ([203.17.36.44]) by spook.cia.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA27420; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:09:54 +1100 Message-ID: <30C453E0.7BA3@cia.com.au> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 06:14:56 -0800 From: Doug Robson X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b2a (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au Subject: Re: Doug has no Power References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Mark, in answer a 42mm and 40 have been used with similiar top end power b + c Yes 12 static 32 full( For both FI and Carb). On dyno we tried 25-38 on injection and got power loss both times d dont have the exacy numbers here at work but were like this Carb Kw FI Kw 4000 55 40 5000 70 50 6000 88 60 7000 93 70 8000 95 70 e Yes but having a different person do it today again Thanks -- Doug Robson Sydney Australia ------------------------------------------------------------- doug@cia.com.au | Thank God for | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Gravity 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | ------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 5 01:33:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA12492; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:22:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA12487; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:22:17 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id RAA00800 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:57:20 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:09 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Mon, 4 Dec 95 17:37:53 EDT Message-Id: <9511050037.AA16528@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Propane Motor Fuel Injection To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 17:37:44 MDT From: dn Cc: allnight@everett.net In-Reply-To: <199512041919.LAA06313@post.everett.net>; from "Johnny" at Dec 4, 95 11:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Yo Johnny... > the sump of course. The nitrogen would probably come from a 3000 psi scuba > bottle, regulated to 300 psi or so. Would have to see what it cost for the What if you just regulated the nitrogen to, say, 200 PSI at the bottle and fed it into a vapor outlet on the standard propane tank. This should keep the pressure in the tank at a fairly constant 200 PSI, which is within system limits, regardless of what the vapor pressure of the propane happens to be at that temperature... > I think it will take both a pressure head (like the N) and a liquid > regulator (set to about 150psi or so) to get it to be stable enough. Then > with the computer compensating for the small fluctuations that still exist, > I think it is do-able. In spite of what I said above, I'm still not convinced on this nitrogen thing. I'd like to make this a commercial system, sell it and make millions, but I'm not sure that average consumer would want to deal with having extra nitrogen tanks et al stuffed into his daily driver, nor bear the added expense of custom pressure tanks, nitrogen refills, etc. I, for one, would not want to have to deal with this on a daily basis for the rest of my vehicle's natural life. Having said that, this would definitely work for the prototype, and allow you to concentrate on the computer end of things for the initial unit. A commercial system would probably have to use some kind of a pump system to raise the fuel pressure above what would normally be encountered for a reasonable range of ambient temperatures. You could use a pump with excess flow capability above what the engine needs, and a pressure relief bypass back to the tank (similar to a hydraulic system) which would inherently give a semi-regulated pressure to the injector fuel rail (this is essentially what a gasoline EFI system does now, the only difference would be the pressures involved). The computer could then deal with the rest. dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 04:09:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18417; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:01:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from walnut.holli.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18412; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:01:07 -0500 Received: from kok-ts2-23.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tNB0M-0009oMC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:58 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:58 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI abilities and older engines X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >To: dn >From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI abilities and older engines > > >>and I think I've found a better unit than the stock HEI module, which fits into >>the stock HEI distributor (I think...). It has a total of seven interface >>terminals, including a spark reference output and input which should be easy >>to interface to. Problem is, none of the aftermarket parts catalogs that I >>have have ANY technical info on the module itself (ie voltages, currents, etc.) > >As far as I know, there are 3 different types of HEI modules: > >The original 1975- ~80 "4 terminal" module. Ground is thourgh the bolt holes and the other terminals are for: battery, coil-, and pickup +/-. This is what I am currently using. > >The 5 terminal module. I think this one was used on trucks with ESC the extra pin is "delay". Not sure how it works. > >The 1981- end of distributor 7 terminal module. This one has the terminals of the 4 term module and three others: refrence: amplified pickup signal output. >est: input signal from the ECM to fire the coil. >bypass: input used to select refrence if the est signal is bad or the 4 wire connector to the ECM is dicconnected (To set timing). > >I think these are 5 volt signals but I'll have to check. The levels are set to allow the ECM to detect an open, or short to battery/ground, then bypass mode will be used and the engine will be on base (~10deg.) timing Incidentally the direct fire systems have a similar interface. > >I have the schematics for these modules, but of course I cant give them out. >Looking at the signals with a scope on any '80's car so equipped would be educational and you would see what the voltage levels look like. >> >>Why dual? One for the Wife? > >I needed 4 lines. Data is displayed like this: > >$aaaa: dd >(bargraph here) > >a: address >d: currnet value > >the s/w allows as many displays as wanted to be added using the same subrouintes. (until you fill the memory map) >> >>> The frist cut alogrithim will generate spark advance from RPM and MAP >>> >> >>Assuming you don't have access to a dynamometer, how would you generate a >>spark timing table? Also, would there be any advantage to using a MAF >>sensor instead of MAP? > >1. >Using an advance timing light and the existing setup. > >Dinsconnect the vacuum advance. >measure the timing advance at every 500 rpm or so. >connect a vacuum pump and guage to the advacne. >at idle (known advance) record the advance vs inches of Hg. >enter these values into the spark advance table as a first cut. >tweak as necessary (yes I know this could take a while.) > >2. >I don't know if anyone does it this way but I don't intend to use the complicated (expensive) and annoying to plumb MAF sensor. Mabye there would be some value in experimenting with it. > > >JW > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 04:09:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18446; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:02:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from walnut.holli.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18441; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:02:54 -0500 Received: from kok-ts2-23.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tNB26-0009oZC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 23:00 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 23:00 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: EST Systems X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) >Subject: Re: EST Systems >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >>To: Bob Valentine >>From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) >>Subject: Re: EST Systems >> >> >>>> Dual LCD displays >>> >>> Dual? Where does the second one go? >> >>One 16X2 display for each parameter displayed. >>Line 1: address and hex value. >>line 2: bargraph. >>> >>> My original idea was to use a GM EST distributor (ones with the >>>locked rotor) and dump in a normal 4 wire module. Set the physical >>>timing really retarded, then just delay the impulse from the pickup to >>>the module. Once I get this so the engine will run ok, then I'll add in >>>a MAP sensor to compensate for load. >>> >>> Am I way off, or am I at least close? >> >>Although some software I've looked at uses a refrence angle which is subtracted? out I don't think this is the way to go with a distributor. Set the EST (no advance) distributor up for about 10 - 15 deg. advance like normal. Each EST pulse received will be a refrence for the next cylinder in the firing order. The S/W basically works like this: >> >>Each EST interrupt measure the refrence period (time of this EST pulse - time of last) >> >>Add this to the time of this pulse to predict when the next one will occur (this assumes constant engine speed which is approximately correct. As a second cut measure the acceleration which requires comparing this refrence period with the last.) >> >>We will use an 8 cyl. example. So each refrence pulse represents 90 deg. of crankshaft rotation. From some algorithim you know how much advance you want (another topic) subtract refperiod *(advance / 90) (fractional time part of a refrence period) from the estimated fall time above to determine the time to fire the coil (turn it off or make EST go low). From this subtract the dwell time (I haven't got any numbers yet) to determine the risetime of EST. I'm not sure but some modules might limit dwell time internally. >> >>Of course you need to do the math correctly and might be able to figure out how to store the timing map in a way to avoid the division limit minimum dwell time, burn time etc. >> >> >>> >>> The other reason I like this is that it could easily be fitted to my >>>beater/daily driver '83 Olds 307 for testing purposes. Also since this >>>thing could really use some work on the spark map as it is... >> >>Retrofits on GMs are really easy just make sure if you are converting a points dist. to electronic that you bypass the resistance wire to ignition. >> >>> Since you work for Delco, can you tell me anything about how the EST >>>system works on my '83? I've got the manuals and diagrams, but I'm still >> >>It's difficult to know how every car works but the description above should get most efi hackers started on their own. All the systems work bascially the same. Some Fords (late 80s SEFI) use a distributor pickup that produces one ref pulse of a different width so the ECM can tell absolute engine position. THe HC11s timer section makes it really easy to measure ref pulses and generate EST ones. I guess thats why we had it built that way :). >> >>Later, >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 04:09:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18439; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:01:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from walnut.holli.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18434; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:01:54 -0500 Received: from kok-ts2-23.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tNB18-0009oTC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:59 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:59 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: EST Systems X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >To: Bob Valentine >From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) >Subject: Re: EST Systems > > >>> Dual LCD displays >> >> Dual? Where does the second one go? > >One 16X2 display for each parameter displayed. >Line 1: address and hex value. >line 2: bargraph. >> >> My original idea was to use a GM EST distributor (ones with the >>locked rotor) and dump in a normal 4 wire module. Set the physical >>timing really retarded, then just delay the impulse from the pickup to >>the module. Once I get this so the engine will run ok, then I'll add in >>a MAP sensor to compensate for load. >> >> Am I way off, or am I at least close? > >Although some software I've looked at uses a refrence angle which is subtracted? out I don't think this is the way to go with a distributor. Set the EST (no advance) distributor up for about 10 - 15 deg. advance like normal. Each EST pulse received will be a refrence for the next cylinder in the firing order. The S/W basically works like this: > >Each EST interrupt measure the refrence period (time of this EST pulse - time of last) > >Add this to the time of this pulse to predict when the next one will occur (this assumes constant engine speed which is approximately correct. As a second cut measure the acceleration which requires comparing this refrence period with the last.) > >We will use an 8 cyl. example. So each refrence pulse represents 90 deg. of crankshaft rotation. From some algorithim you know how much advance you want (another topic) subtract refperiod *(advance / 90) (fractional time part of a refrence period) from the estimated fall time above to determine the time to fire the coil (turn it off or make EST go low). From this subtract the dwell time (I haven't got any numbers yet) to determine the risetime of EST. I'm not sure but some modules might limit dwell time internally. > >Of course you need to do the math correctly and might be able to figure out how to store the timing map in a way to avoid the division limit minimum dwell time, burn time etc. > > >> >> The other reason I like this is that it could easily be fitted to my >>beater/daily driver '83 Olds 307 for testing purposes. Also since this >>thing could really use some work on the spark map as it is... > >Retrofits on GMs are really easy just make sure if you are converting a points dist. to electronic that you bypass the resistance wire to ignition. > >> Since you work for Delco, can you tell me anything about how the EST >>system works on my '83? I've got the manuals and diagrams, but I'm still > >It's difficult to know how every car works but the description above should get most efi hackers started on their own. All the systems work bascially the same. Some Fords (late 80s SEFI) use a distributor pickup that produces one ref pulse of a different width so the ECM can tell absolute engine position. THe HC11s timer section makes it really easy to measure ref pulses and generate EST ones. I guess thats why we had it built that way :). > >Later, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 04:09:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18425; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:01:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from walnut.holli.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18420; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:01:31 -0500 Received: from kok-ts2-23.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tNB0m-0009oOC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:59 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:59 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI abilities and older engines X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >To: eppu@cc.tut.fi >From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI abilities and older engines >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >What was the 4 wire connector >>you are using, is it the one after the module (can't remember whether >>it had three or four pins)? > >This is the connector on '80s GM cars close to the dstributor the signals are >ground, REF(rence), EST, and BYPASS. > >Do you want to distribute your code >>etc. to others, I'd be very interested? > >Hardware probably. Code, I'm not sure. Mabye the code in assembled form with addresses of the cal tables. This is a ways off anyway. Right now I'm concentrating on the scheduler, insturmentation and SCI routines. Next I will write the interrupt handlers for the refrence pulse and EST channels. Finally I'll do the timing algorithim (2D lookup table). Someday EFI will probably be added since it is a simple add on at least as far as hardware and timer code are concerned. I have the digital core schematics done in OrCad format but don't have a way to scan them. The interface board is not designed but should be pretty straightforeward. I'm in the process of building a vehicle intent copy of the hardware. > >Mabye Later I'll write up something on how the hardware works and post it when I get some time and get to a good stoping point in the code. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 11:35:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA19701; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:27:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA19696; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:27:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199512061127.GAA19696@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA20725; Wed, 6 Dec 95 06:27:34 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: TiO2 and leaded fuel. To: DIY_EFI (diy_efi) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 6:27:34 "EST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello efi'ers, I was digging through the archives and discovered a reference to TiO2 sensors for lambda control. Do these things really work with leaded gas? Does any one know of a vendor? Thank you in advance. Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 12:34:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA19812; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:24:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA19807; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:24:04 -0500 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA04194; Wed, 6 Dec 95 07:24:01 EST Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 07:24:01 EST Message-Id: <9512061224.AA04194@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: diy_efi Subject: Fuel Pressure Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm sure this was discussed before but I couldn't find it. As fuel pressure is increased, injection volume increases. Is the increase linear with injection duration? Example: Say I increase fuel pressure some %. At 1500 rpm, the injection volume would increase by some % (%IV@1500). At 5000 rpm the injection volume would also increase some % (%IV@5000). Does %IV@5000 ~= %IV@1500 or is %IV@5000 > %IV@1500 Thanks Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 13:17:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA19928; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:11:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA19923; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:11:06 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id IAA31573; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:11:06 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id IAA31962; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:10:35 -0500 Received: from koptsy22.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA19480 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:10:30 -0500 Received: by koptsy22.delcoelect.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11234; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:10:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:10:29 -0500 From: c1icst1@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Charles S. Tosch) Message-Id: <9512061310.AA11234@koptsy22.delcoelect.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure In-Reply-To: Mail from '"Robert Gallant" ' dated: Wed, 6 Dec 95 07:24:01 EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Message 16: > From owner-diy_efi-outgoing@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Wed Dec 6 08:00:03 1995 > From: "Robert Gallant" > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Fuel Pressure > > I'm sure this was discussed before but I couldn't find it. > As fuel pressure is increased, injection volume increases. > Is the increase linear with injection duration? > > As fuel pressure increases, the volume of flow increases as a function of the square root of the ratio of the pressures. Example: -------------- ------- | new pressure | 60psi | ------------ = vol increase = | ----- = 1.22 times old flow \| old pressure \| 40psi The volume delivered is linear with injection duration. -- Chuck Tosch c1icst1@kocvrs01.delcoelect.com Delco Electronics (317) 451-0869 Kokomo, IN 46904 8-322-0869 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 15:24:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA20244; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:13:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA20239; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:13:09 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <2543>; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:12:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:12:57 -0500 From: CHAN WEN YEN X-Sender: chanwe@indy1.ecf To: diy_efi Subject: fuel pressure and boiling Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I think that the pressure necessary to prevent fuel from boiling can be calculated aproximately using the following formula: ln(P) = -H/8.314 * (1/TO - 1/TB) P = minimum necessary pressure (in pascals) H = heat of vaporization of the fuel (joules per mole) TO = expected operating temperature TB = normal boiling point (in kelvin) 8.314 is the gas constant The formula assumes ideal gas behaviour and a constant H. A large FOS should probably be used. ^ ^ O O ^ ____/ l8tr From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 15:56:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA20675; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:45:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA20670; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:45:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199512061545.KAA20670@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA21493; Wed, 6 Dec 95 10:45:37 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 10:45:37 "EST In-Reply-To: <9512061310.AA11234@koptsy22.delcoelect.com>; from "Charles S. Tosch" at Dec 6, 95 8:10 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I'm sure this was discussed before but I couldn't find it. > > As fuel pressure is increased, injection volume increases. > > Is the increase linear with injection duration? > > As fuel pressure increases, the volume of flow increases as a function > of the square root of the ratio of the pressures. > Example: > > -------------- ------- > | new pressure | 60psi > | ------------ = vol increase = | ----- = 1.22 times old flow > \| old pressure \| 40psi > > The volume delivered is linear with injection duration. What about choked flow? Maybe an orifice area term is needed for really big changes in pressure. Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 17:50:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA21598; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:36:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA21590; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:36:42 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA02840 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:20:25 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Wed, 6 Dec 95 10:33 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Wed, 6 Dec 95 10:16:44 EDT Message-Id: <9511061716.AA16552@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: EST Systems To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 10:16:40 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: ; from "J.W. Harris" at Dec 5, 95 11:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >>>My original idea was to use a GM EST distributor (ones with the > >>>locked rotor) and dump in a normal 4 wire module. Set the physical > >>>timing really retarded, then just delay the impulse from the pickup to > >>>the module. This is the way the old analog delay systems worked where you could adjust your timing from a dashboard control (Accel, MSD used systems like this). Problem was, if it broke, your timing was way retarded and the engine probably wouldn't even run, much less limp home. > the time to fire the coil (turn it off or make EST go low). From this > subtract the dwell time (I haven't got any numbers yet) to determine the > risetime of EST. I'm not sure but some modules might limit dwell time > internally. When you say "limit dwell time internally", do you mean that the module automatically turns the coil on again at some fixed delay after EST has been triggered, regardless of the current state of EST? I'd be dissapointed if this was the case, since I had planned to have a variable dwell based on RPM to keep the power dissipation in the coil to a minimum. (still referring to the standard GM 7 pin module) One other question: is the Refernce output of the module just a signal conditioned copy of the pulse from the pickup? The reason I ask is that I also wanted to use the method of having one wider tooth on the reluctor to indicate cylinder 1, thus having a reference for engine position. If the Reference is a straight one-shot pulse of fixed width regardless of what pulse width the pickup sees, I'll have to scrap that idea and use some other method of determining engine position. Regards, dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 6 21:15:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA23311; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:05:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spook.cia.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA23306; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:05:51 -0500 Received: from ([203.17.36.44]) by spook.cia.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA19721 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:02:31 +1100 Message-ID: <30C7112D.3EA0@cia.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 08:07:09 -0800 From: Doug Robson X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b2a (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Autronic SMC Output Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu HA sanyone been able to decode the serial output from an Autronic SMC serial line. It runs a realtime display on my laptop but i would like to trap it for data logging -- Doug Robson Sydney Australia ------------------------------------------------------------- doug@cia.com.au | Thank God for | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Gravity 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | ------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 05:52:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA27151; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 05:25:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id AAA27146; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:25:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:25:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199512070525.AAA27146@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: "Ty A. Sayman" <102250.2156@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Archived diy_efi info? Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I am glad to have found this list. Is there an archive of postings to this list? If so, how can I get it. Also, what other groups are available on this subject and related topics?(ie. Microcontrolling anything) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 06:07:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA27376; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 05:42:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id AAA27371; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:42:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:42:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199512070542.AAA27371@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Subject: circuit cellar article Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Great article in circuit cellar ink. [I agree... well written... well organized... very inspiring. BTW, I've updated my version of majordomo and hope to have the digest mode available soon... jsg] From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 12:50:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA28500; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:27:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.senet.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA28495; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:27:16 -0500 Received: from rpratt.senet.com.au (rpatt [203.11.90.129]) by gateway.senet.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA26447 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:58:23 +1030 Message-Id: <199512071228.WAA26447@gateway.senet.com.au> From: rpratt@senet.com.au (Rodney Pratt) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: More Inductive Pickup Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 13:27:45 GMT References: <199511301908.OAA17691@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99a.107 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:08:51 EST, you wrote: >I was told that an inductive pickup (from a timing light) will >produce enough current to flash an LED. I have not tried this yet, >however, I am wondering if the pulse width from a spark is long >enough to "see". What is an "average" length of a spark? I recently used an inductive pickup connected to a H11L1 schmitt trigger opto-coupler which inturn triggered a 555 in monostable one-shot configuration. This circuit produces a clean pulse, with the pulse width determined by the 555 timer RC combo. One thing to watch, be sure to provide a suitable sensitivity adjustment on the opto LED current so you can set a trigger threshold,or you will find you pickup stray firings from the other cylinders. Rodney Pratt Computer Aided Test Engineer Mitsubishi Motors Aust Ltd. rpratt@senet.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 15:13:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA28959; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:00:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id KAA28954; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:00:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:00:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199512071500.KAA28954@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Svein Lilleland Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >What about choked flow? Maybe an orifice area term is needed for >really big changes in pressure. >Derrick Early >early@finite.nrl.navy.mil >>really big changes in pressure. Fluid flow through a nozzle is proportional to the area. An injector valve is, however, either open or closed, which implies that the nozzle area is not an adjustable parameter. With the response required for efi, do not contemplate a single proportional valve to control flow rate. What might be possible is a proprtional device upstream of the injector valve. Varying the area of the proportional device, combined with a larger than required injector valve, could mean varying flow rate for a set time span. At high revs, when not much time is available, increased effective nozzle area could provide the required increased flow rate. If this is economically feasible, I do not know. The idea just struck me as I was writing. Should probably have engaged the brain before the finger, but it sounds possible. I started by stating that flow is proportional to nozzle area, flow is proportional to the square root of pressure differential. Flow is further inversely proportional to the square root of fluid density, which is no big issue for fuel. Finally, flow is proportional to a discharge factor which typically is 0.62. regards svein.lilleland@hytrol.telemax.no From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 21:28:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA01510; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:15:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01505; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:15:43 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-232.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.232]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA01233 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:15:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:15:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199512072115.QAA01233@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Great article in circuit cellar ink. > >[I agree... well written... well organized... very inspiring. BTW, >I've updated my version of majordomo and hope to have the digest >mode available soon... jsg] > > > Halleluiah. I'm getting swamped with sometimes 99 messages in my box per day. It's almost too much to really use. I also agree with your assessment on the CCi articles. I ordered the back issues from Circuit Cellar, received them in less than three days, and am digging into them now. One quick question though, Ed: I don't understand your explaination of the fuel regulator in part 1. You state that by plumbing the regulator to the intake manifold, as manifold pressure rises, it biases the regulator in order to keep a steady 45 PSI. I always thought that by plumbing it to the intake manifold, you effectively allow manifold pressure to effect change into the regulator pressure. So, in effect, as engine loading increases, and manifold pressure increases, a corr- esponding increase in fuel pressure results. What's the deal? ---Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 7 22:59:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA02583; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:49:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA02578; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:49:42 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA08607 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 Dec 95 15:49:40 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA08532; Thu, 7 Dec 95 15:49:38 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA02522; Thu, 7 Dec 95 16:49:37 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11735; Thu, 7 Dec 95 16:44:30 CST Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 16:44:30 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512072244.AA11735@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) >digest mode to be updated to the mailing list. Thanks John. ;-) > I don't understand your explaination of the fuel regulator in part 1. > You state that by plumbing the regulator to the intake manifold, as manifold > pressure rises, it biases the regulator in order to keep a steady 45 PSI. > > I always thought that by plumbing it to the intake manifold, you effectively > allow manifold pressure to effect change into the regulator pressure. So, in > effect, as engine loading increases, and manifold pressure increases, a corr- > esponding increase in fuel pressure results. What's the deal? Dan, I think Ed meant a "45 psi differential across the injector". Tom P.S. For any hsm's on the list: Steam and Sterling Engines II had a good article on Propane pressure regulator. [Same publisher as Home Shop Machinist. ] From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 00:51:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA02854; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:42:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA02849; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 19:42:33 -0500 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com(really [131.168.254.216]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:46:21 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.4 built 17-oct-95) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:06:34 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.3 built 13-oct-95) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:06:20 CST Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:06:11 CST Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: Digest version of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Wrote: | One quick question though, Ed: | | I don't understand your explaination of the fuel regulator in part 1. | You state that by plumbing the regulator to the intake manifold, as manifold | pressure rises, it biases the regulator in order to keep a steady 45 PSI. | | I always thought that by plumbing it to the intake manifold, you effectively | allow manifold pressure to effect change into the regulator pressure. So, in | effect, as engine loading increases, and manifold pressure increases, a corr- | esponding increase in fuel pressure results. What's the deal? | | ---Dan. The pressure across the injector varies with vacuum. Remember that the end of it may be seeing atmospheric pressure (WOT) or a vacuum (idle). A regulator will hold fuel pressure at 45 psi, but the vacuum on the injector end varies from 0 to 8 psi or so. A regulator that is plumbed to the intake will maintain 45 psi across the injector regardless of the vacuum in the intake. You can also take vacuum into account in software by modifying the injector pulse, but the regulator makes things a lot easier. Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 03:37:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA03338; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 03:26:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA03333; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:26:54 -0500 Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tNtSX-000BPOC; Thu, 7 Dec 95 22:26 EST Received: from kok-ts1-26.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tNtQM-0009iaC; Thu, 7 Dec 95 22:24 EST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 22:24 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: EST Systems X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >When you say "limit dwell time internally", do you mean that the >module automatically turns the coil on again at some fixed delay after >EST has been triggered, regardless of the current state of EST? I'd be >dissapointed if this was the case, since I had planned to have a >variable dwell based on RPM to keep the power dissipation in the coil >to a minimum. (still referring to the standard GM 7 pin module) I think I saw somewhere that some modules will limit dwell if it exceeds a maximum value. It might just limit current or both. I'm not sure. > >One other question: is the Refernce output of the module just a signal >conditioned copy of the pulse from the pickup? The reason I ask is >that I also wanted to use the method of having one wider tooth on the >reluctor to indicate cylinder 1, thus having a reference for engine >position. If the Reference is a straight one-shot pulse of fixed >width regardless of what pulse width the pickup sees, I'll have to >scrap that idea and use some other method of determining engine >position. I don't know what kind of signal conditioning is done, if any. It probably works like a comparator with hysteresis. However, I don't think making one tooth wider with a VR sensor will work. It would be impossible to measure the resulting waveform with enough accuracy to distinguish that tooth. A better solution is to add an extra tooth and have S/W recognize when it is passed. Or use a wheel with many teeth and detect one that is missing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 04:59:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA04173; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 04:48:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA04168; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:48:49 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10913 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:48:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:48:40 -0500 Message-ID: <951207215737_66988546@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-07 18:40:02 EST, you write: >> I don't understand your explaination of the fuel regulator in part >1. >> You state that by plumbing the regulator to the intake manifold, as >manifold >> pressure rises, it biases the regulator in order to keep a steady 45 PSI. >> >> I always thought that by plumbing it to the intake manifold, you >effectively allow manifold pressure to effect change into the regulator pressure. So, >in effect, as engine loading increases, and manifold pressure increases, a >corresponding increase in fuel pressure results. What's the deal? > > As long as we are speaking for Ed, I really liked the CCI articles. They provided a proffesional approach to hardware & software development for a motorcycle racer with a BSME(me), and I don't think I was the target audience. I was supprised at Eds choice of a speed denisty system for a motorcycle engine. Motorcycles almost always use independent runner intake systems (one throttle bore and carb venturi per cylinder). If you've ever tried to synchronize one of these systems, it is obvious that manifold pressure varies so much as a function of crank position that I would think that it would be useless as an indicator of engine load or cylinder filling. I also don't see how the fuel pressure regulator could have the frequency response to track these manifold pressure variations. This is less severe at full throttle, but still present. It would seem to me that an N-alpha system would be more applicable. It would be possible to provide some averaging of the manifold pressurer by using a long tube between the sensor and the manifold or manifolding the sensor to all the cylinders. This discussion dosn't apply if Ed used independent injectors and a single throttle point. The article also indicated the motor was good for 70 hp. I hope this was the stock figure, or it was downgraded to fool the competition. Otherwise all that was gained with FI was ease of tuning. Once again, I really got alot out of the articles, but I'm curious about some of the choices that were made on the mechanical side of things. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 06:02:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA05530; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 05:54:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA05525; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:53:56 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id QAA03046 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:53:54 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199512080553.QAA03046@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: EST Systems To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:53:54 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "J.W. Harris" at Dec 7, 95 10:24:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2600 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On the subject of dwell control.. > >When you say "limit dwell time internally", do you mean that the > >module automatically turns the coil on again at some fixed delay after > >EST has been triggered, regardless of the current state of EST? I'd be > >dissapointed if this was the case, since I had planned to have a > >variable dwell based on RPM to keep the power dissipation in the coil > >to a minimum. (still referring to the standard GM 7 pin module) > J.W. Harris replied, > I think I saw somewhere that some modules will limit dwell if it exceeds a > maximum value. It might just limit current or both. I'm not sure. > There are ign controller chips available which do both the current limiting and dwell control functions. For example, the MC3334, will accept an input from a reluctor pickup and automatically determine when to commence coil charging. When a pre-set primary current is reached, the current is maintained until firing. The chip adds a small amount of extra charge time to allow for engine acceleration and also has a minimum discharge time in the order of one millisecond to allow the spark to ignite the mixture. The individual Bosch ign amps also have a dwell control and minimum discharge feature. From memory, they will accept a digital input but will commence charging sooner than instructed if the input is of too short a duration. Ideally, the charge time would be constant in the time domain since the coil charging characteristics don't vary with engine speed. The charge time would be chosen so that the desired current limit would be reached just before firing. Since the charging must commence before we know when to fire the plug, we also have to add some extra time so that the coil is fully charged in the worst case of rapid engine acceleration. I personally use a fixed charge time in the range 1-5 mS with a minimum discharge time of 1 mS. Modern, low impedance epoxy filled coils can be charged very quickly, but tend to destroy themselves if the secondaries are left open circuit or if proper current limiting isn't used. regards, Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 06:16:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA06532; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 06:11:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA06526; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:11:09 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id RAA03355 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:11:06 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199512080611.RAA03355@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Motorcycle speed density systems To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:11:06 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <951207215737_66988546@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BradyEng@aol.com" at Dec 7, 95 11:48:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2481 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu SBrady replied in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > I was supprised at Eds choice of a speed denisty system for a motorcycle > engine. Motorcycles almost always use independent runner intake systems (one > throttle bore and carb venturi per cylinder). If you've ever tried to > synchronize one of these systems, it is obvious that manifold pressure varies > so much as a function of crank position that I would think that it would be > useless as an indicator of engine load or cylinder filling. I also don't see > how the fuel pressure regulator could have the frequency response to track > these manifold pressure variations. This is less severe at full throttle, > but still present. Mazda rotaries have a similar problem, especially when ported. One option is to place the MAP line into one of the runners and exploit the venturi effect to give a measure of load. Fuel pressure regulators have a suprisingly fast response time. Connection to only one runner would be a problem though. > It would seem to me that an N-alpha system would be more applicable. This is a more common solution. Most of our rotary or motorcycle applications use a speed-throttle position system except when turbocharged. > It would be possible to provide some averaging of the manifold pressurer by > using a long tube between the sensor and the manifold or manifolding the > sensor to all the cylinders. This discussion dosn't apply if Ed used > independent injectors and a single throttle point. A simple method of mechanical filtering is to either have a restriction in the line or a relatively large chamber in series to absorb cyclic fluctuations as an automotive muffler does. Electronic filtering and smart anti aliasing digital sampling can also be used. > Once again, I really got alot out of the articles, but I'm curious about some > of the choices that were made on the mechanical side of things. I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally found a source? Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 16:25:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA08646; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:13:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id LAA08641; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:13:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:13:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199512081613.LAA08641@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Svein Lilleland Subject: Re: EST Systems Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >There are ign controller chips available which do both the current >limiting and dwell control functions. For example, the MC3334, will >accept an input from a reluctor pickup and automatically determine >when to commence coil charging For the sake of us newcomers, where do you get a MC3334?? svein.lilleland@hytrol.telemax.no From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 22:27:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA10771; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:18:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gater4.sematech.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA10766; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:18:05 -0500 Received: from GATEV4.SEMATECH.ORG by gater4.sematech.org (8.6.12/F-1.9) with ESMTP id QAA07151; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:18:00 -0600 Received: from MR.SEMATECH.Org by SEMATECH.Org (PMDF V5.0-5 #5463) id <01HYKKA2NSK08Y52MR@SEMATECH.Org> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 16:17:32 -0600 (CST) Received: with PMDF-MR; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 16:10:42 -0600 (CST) MR-Received: by mta GATEV3; Relayed; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 16:17:18 -0600 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 15:20:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759 Subject: Re: EST To: diy_efi Message-id: <01HYKKA44AZQ8Y52MR@MR.SEMATECH.Org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 16:09:00 -0600 (CST) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;24016180215991/1878108@VAXEN] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Assuming a V8, reconfigure as necessary for your application. Why don't you use 5 imbedded magnets in the harmonic balancer and two pick ups to determine firing positions. Four of the magnets would be 90 degrees from each other, starting at TDC for #1 cylinder. Place these four magnets at the outter edge of the balancer. The fifth magnet would be positioned at TDC for #1 cylinder as well but at the inner edge of the balancer. One pick up would sense the four outer magnets and the second sensor would sense the fifth magnet. If you don't have room to run the pickups side by side then off set the fifth magnet, x# of degrees from TDC for #1 cylinder, and the corresponding pick up. Just make sure both sensors read both magnets at the same time. I'd dial in the maximum ADVANCE you want and use the controller to delay from max advance based on the knock sensor and to a lesser extent the coolant temp sensor. Remember too much advance can cause overheating. I'm pretty sure you would'nt even need a vacuum input, for advance based on vacuum. Just input the spark knock signal and the pick up signal to a variable delay ckt, o/p that signal to all divide by 4 (/4) ckts, o/p /4 to ignition coil driver ckt #1 and to /4 ckt #2, etc. for however many coils your running. The ignition coil driver ckt will need to determine dwell and handle the current necessary to drive your choice of coils as well as limit the current so you don't burn your coil out. Just thinking here. I'm not an engineer just a tech but I think this might work. If any one wants to help me prototype a schematic and help me out with component selection I'd be willing to cobble a prototype ckt, at my expense and test it on my Dart. I'd even post the results and share the info with all of you. Email me if you like. See acsii "art" for /4 ckt. Steve M Knickerbocker STEVE.KNICKERBOCKER@SEMATECH.ORG sensor 2 i/p _____ --------------| /4 |-.----------- to coil driver #1 --------.-----|_____| | sensor | __________| trigger for next /4 ckt 1 i/p | | _____ | '--| /4 |------------- to coil driver #2 '-----|_____| obviously these need to be triggerable divide by four ckts. The trigger for #1 /4 ckt is the pulse from the second, fifth magnet, pick up. all others will be triggered by the preceeding /4 ckts o/p to the coil drivers. What say you? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 8 23:40:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA11030; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:33:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA11025; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:33:12 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.137]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Sat, 9 Dec 95 10:33:06 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 95 10:33:06 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Subject: Re: Doug has no Power Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Mark, >in answer >a 42mm and 40 have been used with similiar top end power > >b + c Yes 12 static 32 full( For both FI and Carb). > On dyno we tried 25-38 on injection > and got power loss both times > >d dont have the exacy numbers here at work but were like this > > Carb Kw FI Kw >4000 55 40 >5000 70 50 >6000 88 60 >7000 93 70 >8000 95 70 > >e Yes but having a different person do it today again > >Thanks > > >-- >Doug Robson Sydney Australia >------------------------------------------------------------- >doug@cia.com.au | Thank God for > | >Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Gravity >1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | >------------------------------------------------------------- > Doug, Sorry I did not get back to you. I made a fatal mistake, I asked Telecom to install a new fax line and some extentions to my existing phone line and in the process they killed everything. This happened Tuesday afternoon !!!!!! I have had a similar thing, to your problem, in setting up a 1600cc off-road buggy. Try this, get some 42mm Weber chokes and "race tape" them in the trumpets of the 50 mm throttle bodies and tell me what happens. I think you will be surprised! regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design Sydney Australia ps. To take advantage of the 50MM throttle bodies you are going to have to get some more flow through your cylinder head. Cam, cylinder head and exhaust all play a part. The easiest is probably a (much) bigger cam even if someone could lend you one to try. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 00:59:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA11183; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:52:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA11178; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 19:52:30 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id RAA05697 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:29:26 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Fri, 8 Dec 95 17:42 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Fri, 8 Dec 95 17:26:42 EDT Message-Id: <9511090026.AA16600@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: fuel pressure regulator To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 17:26:37 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199512072115.QAA01233@vixa.voyager.net>; from "Daniel R Burk" at Dec 7, 95 4:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I don't understand your explaination of the fuel regulator in part 1. > You state that by plumbing the regulator to the intake manifold, as manifold > pressure rises, it biases the regulator in order to keep a steady 45 PSI. > > I always thought that by plumbing it to the intake manifold, you effectively > allow manifold pressure to effect change into the regulator pressure. So, in > effect, as engine loading increases, and manifold pressure increases, a corr- > esponding increase in fuel pressure results. What's the deal? To butt in here- The fuel pressure reg has the BACK side of the diaphragm (the spring side) tied into manifold pressure. It's easier to think in terms of ABSOLUTE pressure rather than GAGE pressure. By example, suppose that the regulator is set for 50 PSI. When the engine is at idle, the manifold absolute pressure is near zero, which has no effect on the regulator. Fuel pressure (and pressure across the injector) is thus at 50 PSI absolute. As manifold pressure increases when you open the throttle (less engine vacuum), it has the effect of boosting the fuel pressure because the manifold pressure is opposing the spring in the regulator thus decreasing the effective force on the diaphragm and opening up the regulator. Suppose again, that at half throttle, the manifold pressure is now 7 psi... this adds to the regulator setting and results in an absolute fuel pressure of 57 PSI. Since the manifold side of the injector is at manifold pressure, you still have a net result of 57-7=50 PSI across the injector itself, thus the regulator maintains a constant pressure ACROSS the injector. Fuel rail pressure, however, varies with manifold pressure. In the real world, it's not quite this straightforward, but this explanation is close enough. Hope this clears it up for ya. regards dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 01:47:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA11333; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:40:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA11328; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:40:26 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA03651 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:40:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: <951208204021_128673045@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu One problem with this setup, when the fifth magnetic pickup is triggered, is it at TDC compression/power or is it TDC exhaust/intake. This is where you need a magnetic pickup on the cam. See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 02:05:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA11388; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:52:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA11383; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:52:32 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-245.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.245]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA15606 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:52:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:52:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199512090152.UAA15606@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: re: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >The pressure across the injector varies with vacuum. Remember that the end >of it may be seeing atmospheric pressure (WOT) or a vacuum (idle). A >regulator will hold fuel pressure at 45 psi, but the vacuum on the injector >end varies from 0 to 8 psi or so. A regulator that is plumbed to the >intake will maintain 45 psi across the injector regardless of the vacuum in >the intake. You can also take vacuum into account in software by modifying >the injector pulse, but the regulator makes things a lot easier. > >Steve Ravet >sravet@bangate.compaq.com >Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... > OOOhhhhh I get it!! I guess I just wasn't seeing the whole picture... Thanks for "the deal". --Dan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 02:17:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA11412; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 02:03:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA11407; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:03:23 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-245.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.245]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id VAA16135 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:03:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:03:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199512090203.VAA16135@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >As long as we are speaking for Ed, I really liked the CCI articles. They >provided a proffesional approach to hardware & software development for a >motorcycle racer with a BSME(me), and I don't think I was the target >audience. > >I was supprised at Eds choice of a speed denisty system for a motorcycle >engine. Motorcycles almost always use independent runner intake systems (one >throttle bore and carb venturi per cylinder). If you've ever tried to >synchronize one of these systems, it is obvious that manifold pressure varies >so much as a function of crank position that I would think that it would be >useless as an indicator of engine load or cylinder filling. I also don't see >how the fuel pressure regulator could have the frequency response to track >these manifold pressure variations. This is less severe at full throttle, >but still present. > >It would seem to me that an N-alpha system would be more applicable. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 03:17:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA11592; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 03:08:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gater4.sematech.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA11587; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:07:59 -0500 Received: from gatev3.sematech.org by gater4.sematech.org (8.6.12/F-1.9) with ESMTP id VAA11615; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:07:57 -0600 Received: from MR.SEMATECH.Org by SEMATECH.Org (PMDF V5.0-5 #5463) id <01HYKUEDTN8G8Y54QL@SEMATECH.Org> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 21:07:19 -0600 (CST) Received: with PMDF-MR; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 21:03:25 -0600 (CST) MR-Received: by mta GATEV3; Relayed; Fri, 08 Dec 1995 21:06:56 -0600 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 20:46:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759 Subject: RE:EST To: diy_efi Message-id: <01HYKUEF6EMU8Y54QL@MR.SEMATECH.Org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 20:52:00 -0600 (CST) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;52301280215991/1878572@VAXEN] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ok, using two sensors on the balancer is ok except that there is no way to sense TDC/compression vice TDC/intake,exhaust. I was wondering how I was going to keep the oil pump drive shaft from riding up on my 360. I'll use a modified distributor base to keep the oil drive shaft in place and supply a TDC compression signal. So just covert all remarks about the fifth magnet/second pickup to mean the modified distributor TDC /compression signal. I think I may have an idea here. I even have an old distributor I can modify. Steve M Knickerbocker From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 04:33:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA11732; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 04:23:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA11725; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:23:26 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18429 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:23:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:23:25 -0500 Message-ID: <951208232324_68005028@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-08 21:19:58 EST, you write: > >One problem with this setup, when the fifth magnetic pickup is triggered, is >it at TDC compression/power or is it TDC exhaust/intake. This is where you >need a magnetic pickup on the cam. > > Has anybody tried a crank only system that uses a software scheme to detect #1 TDC? Something along the lines of starting off as double fire with independent coils, skipping a spark plug firing, trying to detect the change in speed, and phasing off of that. This would be a variation of the old mechanics trick of pulling a spark plug lead at a time and measuring the change in idle speed to determine the cylinder that is causing a miss. Perhaps this could be done fast enough electronically to be undetectable to the driver. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 13:20:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA12576; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:09:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA12571; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:09:04 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA14036 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 9 Dec 95 06:09:02 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA07821; Sat, 9 Dec 95 06:09:01 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA11788; Sat, 9 Dec 95 07:09:00 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13240; Sat, 9 Dec 95 07:03:51 CST Date: Sat, 9 Dec 95 07:03:51 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512091303.AA13240@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Has anybody tried a crank only system that uses a software scheme to detect > #1 TDC? Haven't seen it... seems the Saab system with the sensor could do that (i.e. if spark did not occur, rotate crank another 360 degrees.. check for spark). If the big three could save $3 per vehicle (delete the cam sensor), seems like it would be in place. ;-) While on the subject of ignition at cranking... With some engines is not uncommon to get a "kick back" at cranking, with the engine just starting to rock backwards. How do we detect for this? ;-) [My high compression 4 does just this... need to tap the starter quite a few times for it to start]. Another trick: In Europe it is common to KILL the engine at stop lights. Little sweep hand on the red light shows you when the next "green" cycle will occur... giving you time to restart the engine. VW has a system, controlled by software, that detects a WARM engine, stopped at a light... push the clutch down. Engine is cut.(shift in Neutral). When you next push down on the clutch, the engine will apply SPARK to the cylinder it sensed was last PAST TDC. Engine will "pop,pop, vroom" and off you go again! [Just a neat software hack] Tom Walter Austin, TX From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 16:13:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA12785; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:03:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uhavax.hartford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA12780; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:03:31 -0500 Received: by uhavax.hartford.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 69; Sat, 09 Dec 1995 11:03:20 EDT Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 11:03:19 EDT From: "Nietzsche is dead. -God" To: diy_efi Message-ID: <0099A9AE.697661E0.69@uhavax.hartford.edu> Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Could someone please tell me where to get the CCI articles that everyone is talking about? Thanks! --Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 16:29:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA12827; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:26:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA12822; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:26:56 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA25526 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:26:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:26:55 -0500 Message-ID: <951209112654_68267965@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-09 08:48:28 EST, you write: >While on the subject of ignition at cranking... With some engines is >not uncommon to get a "kick back" at cranking, with the engine just >starting to rock backwards. How do we detect for this? ;-) [My high >compression 4 does just this... need to tap the starter quite a few >times for it to start]. The hot rodders trick for beating this is to not apply spark until the starter has the motor up to speed, ie seperate switches for the ignition and starter. I've set up my boat(460 ford) and high performance cars this way. It dosn't seem like it would be that difficult to implement in software. Ed Lansinger discussed another scheme in Circuit Cellar Ink #63. He fired the plug at exactly TDC at cranking speeds. The advantage of this scheme (besides being much more elegant than 2 switches) is that race vehicles can be bump started. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 22:17:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA14533; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 22:05:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA14528; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:05:07 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-233.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.233]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA22353 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:05:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:05:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199512092205.RAA22353@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Could someone please tell me where to get the CCI articles that everyone is >talking about? Thanks! > --Mark > > You can check your friendly collegate library, or you can call (860)875-2199 and talk to Jeannette Walters about ordering back issues. They cost $4.00 each, plus an additional $2.00 for postage and handling. Ask for issues #62, 63, and 64. September through November 1995. --Dan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 22:43:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA14604; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 22:32:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.carleton.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA14599; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:32:40 -0500 Received: from freenet2.carleton.ca (freenet2.carleton.ca [134.117.1.39]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA27238 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:32:37 -0500 Received: by freenet2.carleton.ca (8.6.12/Sun-Client) id RAA01842; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:32:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:32:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199512092232.RAA01842@freenet2.carleton.ca> From: ca904@freenet.carleton.ca (Denis Rouleau) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Digest version of this list Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Could someone please tell me where to get the CCI articles that everyone is >talking about? Thanks! > --Mark > > Contact Circuit Cellar Back Issues 4 Park st Vernon, CT 06066 Phone # (860) 875-2199 FAX # (860)872-2204 -- Salut. Denis Rouleau (ca904@freenet.carleton.ca) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 9 23:24:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA14988; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:14:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA14983; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 18:14:25 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.100]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14604 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:17:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:17:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199512100017.QAA14604@post.everett.net> X-Sender: allnight@everett.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Johnny Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:40 PM 12/8/95 -0500, you wrote: >One problem with this setup, when the fifth magnetic pickup is triggered, is >it at TDC compression/power or is it TDC exhaust/intake. This is where you >need a magnetic pickup on the cam. > >See ya, > > >Mike No cam pickup is needed for dual coils or batch fired injectors, only one coil per cylinder, or sequential injector systems. -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 10 03:08:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA15303; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:56:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15298; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:56:36 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Sat, 9 Dec 1995 18:56:23 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 95 18:56:34 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9512100256.utk19495@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Digest version of this list To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 05:18:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA19127; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 05:04:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA19122; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:04:40 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.153]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Mon, 11 Dec 95 16:04:25 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 16:04:25 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: wayneg@mail.mpx.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: wayneg@mail.mpx.com.au (wayne glasser) Subject: Re: Silicon Systems 67F687 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Some where around the traps I read of a person who had made a replica of the SSI-67F697 engine management co-processor from a FPGA or GAL or something similar. Could anyone please assist me in contacting this person. Many thanks ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Wayne Glasser + + Sydney - AUSTRALIA + + wayneg@mail.mpx.com.au + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 07:32:55 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA19362; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:22:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns2.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA19357; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:22:40 -0500 Received: by ns2.eds.com (hello) id CAA21778; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:22:39 -0500 Received: by nnsp.eds.com (hello) id CAA14701; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:22:08 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904 by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA24915; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:22:03 -0500 Received: from ctlp0161.MPG.GMPT.GMEDS.COM ([130.172.65.166]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA087836497; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:21:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 10:19:24 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: C for embedded controllers To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My apologies for a) reviving a thread that may have already died a natural death and b) not responding to other people earlier pursuant to this thread. I got really busy all of a sudden. With respect to the question of using C++ for embedded control and my upcoming article in the February issue of the C/C++ User's Journal - Bruce Bowling wrote: >Some of the things which blows my mind from using C++ are the following: > >1) Virtual functions, in which the virtual function tables get set up >at runtime (i.e. the function pointers inside of an object get >set when the object is created) or when an object gets created >using "new". It turns out to be no big deal. When an instance of a class with virtual functions is created, storage for a pointer to a table of function addresses, the "vtbl" pointer, is allocated (these addresses are the addresses of the virtual functions). This pointer is inserted as an invisible addition to the normal data members. When a call is made to a virtual function, the address for the "real" function is looked up out of this table, then the function is called. It is therefore only slightly slower than a straight function call. (The meaning behind calling a C++ virtual member function is different than behind calling a normal C function, so it's not really appropriate to compare call times. If you tried to express the same meaning in C or assembler or whatever you would still have to go through the same basic procedure and it would take just as long.) How does this vtbl pointer get initialized? Note that all objects of a given class will use the same vtbl. They don't have individual vtbls, they have individual pointers to a vtbl. The vtbls are created at compile time. The only thing that happens at run time is the initialization of the vtbl pointer inside the new object. This happens during the "new" process. Since the class of the object to be "newed" is explicit, the correct vtbl is also known. I recommend reading Ellis and Stroustrup, "The Annotated C++ Reference Manual", sections 10.7c and 10.8c, for additional information. I also recommend playing with cfront. >Virtual functions appear to be an additional layer >to debug through, since addresses are determined at runtime and >can change depending on the inheritance of an object. To clarify, the addresses of the functions to call (comprising the vtbl) are determined at compile time. The determination of which vtbl to use for a new object happens at runtime during the call to "new" (this is a trivial determination based solely on the class of the object as specified in the call to "new"). The vtbl pointer, once initialized, does not change (at least in any normal code). An object's inheritance cannot change at runtime, it's just that you can operate on an object knowing that it is descended from a certain class without needing to know its exact class. As to the "additional layer", it's largely invisible during debugging. If I step a machine instruction at a time across a call to a virtual function, watching the current high-level source line, the debugger makes a brief detour to the last line in the file (I assume this indicates a point in the code for which the compiler indicated no valid source line), then goes to the first line of the virtual function. It's effortless. >2) How does one handle "new" in an embedded system? Making a "malloc" >function is easy - making a new, which does things like set up >virtual function pointers using the constructor, appears harder. >Does the compiler do all the work? (I am assuming there is >no operating system). I deal with this in the article. I used cfront (translates C++ to C), then the Introl C compiler. cfront requires you to write new(), delete(), vec_new(), and vec_delete() (the last two are for creating and destroying arrays of objects). new() only needs to do what malloc() would do. cfront writes C code to take care of anything else. In the article I don't give new() and delete() as they are typically very specific to the system but I do give vec_new() and vec_delete() which need not be. >3) The strong typecasting of C++, while nice for the new or >sloppy programmer, can be a menance to someone who wants >to pass an argument a certain way because they know what >they are doing and are incrementally smarter than the compiler >at that moment. If I may be so bold, I see this belief as a relic from K & R. I feel that the weak typing of (non-ANSI) C is nice for the ((new || old) && (sloppy || lazy)) programmer who wants to pass an argument when it's too bothersome to figure out how to properly typecast it. I have never been prevented by C++ from doing anything I wanted to do. Explicitness makes for fewer misunderstandings over time. What is cool along these lines (IMHO) is the extended ability to make new types. I should have gone into this in the article but I didn't. Creating, say, a reduced-precision floating point type along with new arithmetic operators so you can still write "w = (x * y) + z;" instead of "w = add( mult (x, y), z);" has important implications for embedded code. If you don't have strong typing and the ability to define and carefully control your own type conversions, you or the nimwit who tries to "improve" your code six months from now (these two sets are not necessarily disjoint) could hang themselves right quickly. Matt Sale wrote: >Then why do you claim in part 1 of your Circuit Cellar INK series >that "The code is in assembly." Sorry, I wasn't clear. The CCI articles were written about the earliest viable version of that system as it existed in May '93. The CUJ article is about work that I did on a later version as it existed in Spring '94. The first was programmed in assembler, the second in C++. >By the way, the Circuit Cellar series was good, but lacked actual >code or schematics. Most Circuit Cellar articles contain enough >info to actually build something. Are you willing to make more >information available? Thanks for the compliment. All source code is available, as is the case with all CCI articles. Well, let me qualify that. I have source code for a barely running version as of May '92 which I will happily make available. The code for the May '93 version is only available on a hard drive that crashed right before the articles were published. All backup floppies (and I made *extensive* backups) had been lost during the year I was not involved with the project. As yet I am not wealthy enough to send the hard drive off to a data recovery service. I made a judgement call on the schematics. Most of the circuitry involved was rather trivial, and I figured rather than waste space on yet another example of using an LM324 as a buffer, I'd concentrate on the real beef, i.e. the special circuits I needed that weren't as obvious. You should find schematics for these more important circuits in the articles. If there is anything more you'd like to know I'd be happy to provide further information. Sandy Ganz wrote: >Will their be lots of examples in the C/C++ users journal. I hate to think >that I'm going to have to wait that long to see some of the examples. What >can I get now...Do you have schematics, or is that propritary? Yes, there are several examples, including 7 short code listings. The article is not about EFI systems, though. It has one main theme - how to get C++ code running on an embedded system for which no C++ compiler exists. The major subtheme is that C++ worked and was useful for this application. There is no information on the hardware at all (not the focus of that magazine anyways), although it's essentially the same hardware I described in the CCI articles. The code examples used in the article are not fully representative of the body of code I created. For instance, I don't show the LCDDisplay class and how it works with the Optrex LCD display to create different display contexts for different objects such that each thinks they have their own entire display. I also don't go into the Process class that I created for round-robing multitasking, nor the overall structure, nor .... Perhaps if you were more specific about what you're interested in I could be more helpful. Ed Lansinger elansi01@mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com: GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibraton Group lansie@rpi.edu: Project Leader, Rensselaer Formula Lightning Team From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 17:15:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA21494; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:08:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA21489; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:08:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199512111708.MAA21489@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA099141688; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:08:09 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: C for embedded controllers To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:08:08 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Ed Lansinger" at Dec 11, 95 10:19 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ >Virtual functions appear to be an additional layer ~ >to debug through, since addresses are determined at runtime and ~ >can change depending on the inheritance of an object. ~ ~ ~ As to the "additional layer", it's largely invisible during debugging. ~ If I step a machine instruction at a time across a call to a virtual function, ~ watching the current high-level source line, the debugger makes a brief detour ~ to the last line in the file (I assume this indicates a point in the code ~ for which the compiler indicated no valid source line), then goes to the ~ first line of the virtual function. It's effortless. ~ ~ ~ If I may be so bold, I see this belief as a relic from K & R. I feel ~ that the weak typing of (non-ANSI) C is nice for the ((new || old) && ~ (sloppy || lazy)) programmer who wants to pass an argument when it's too ~ bothersome to figure out how to properly typecast it. I have never been ~ prevented by C++ from doing anything I wanted to do. Explicitness makes ~ for fewer misunderstandings over time. ~ I guess I got "bad blood" from using C++, mainly because of the requirements of the project. My bad experience came from using C++ on a non-embedded project, one that should not have been (in my mind) so difficult, but caused endless grief until I realized what was going on... The "project" was an electron accelerator simulation which consisted of several processes (running on a HP workstation under HPUX) which communicated using shared-memory. The idea was to create the objects (which were several thousand 2-dimensional matrices with associated virtual functions - each matrix+functions a separate object) in shared memory and let each concurrent process use the functions. However, it turns out that the first process who created the shared-memory objects initialized the virtual function pointers to its "space" of execution and the other processes who accessed the virtual functions were trying to access an address outside of its scope. This caused me loads of pain on a project which was already behind because of my learning curve with C++. HPUX does not have thread capabilities (the OS version I was using), and other communication methods like pipes, sockets, etc, were inefficient with the size of the data (over 70 meg). The solution to the problem was to make the objects in shared-memory a sub-class to new objects which contained the virtual functions (taking them out of the shared- memory classes) and pointers to the object in shared-memory. This worked, but I lost the benefits of encapsulation of data/functions in one single object. Each processes has to set up the pointers to shared-memory themselves, and data accesses are via. the pointers to shared memory which killed performance slightly. The program also had to worry about shared-memory/object alignment to prevent access errors. I guess the point here is that I had to know what the compiler/OS was doing with the code, and find a work-around, so the whole notion of just writing code and letting the compiler worry about the details can lead to trouble. Hence the "lazy" or "inexperienced" reference I stated before. This is a unique problem, which probably would not show up on an embedded system where one has access to the entire scope of memory. However, the experience has reinforced in my mind that one should use the proper tools for the job. I was required to use C++ on this project to make the simulation more "high-tech"/"state-of-the-art"/etc...... - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 17:15:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA21093; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:02:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id MAA21088; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:02:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:02:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199512111702.MAA21088@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] digest mode From: John S Gwynne Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -------- Digest mode is now available. To subscribe: a) unsubscribe to the regular mail list Send in the body of email to majorodomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu: unsubscribe i.e., "unsubscribe diy_efi" b) subscribe to the digest version of the list Send in the body of email to majorodomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu: subscribe -digest i.e., "subscribe diy_efi-digest" John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 19:03:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA25087; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:51:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gater3.sematech.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA25082; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:51:29 -0500 Received: from GATEV4.SEMATECH.ORG by gater3.sematech.org (8.6.12/F-1.9) with ESMTP id MAA05681; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:51:21 -0600 Received: from MR.SEMATECH.Org by SEMATECH.Org (PMDF V5.0-5 #5463) id <01HYOJWT40Q88WW6N3@SEMATECH.Org> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:51:03 -0600 (CST) Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:49:07 -0600 (CST) MR-Received: by mta GATEV3; Relayed; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:50:46 -0600 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:26:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759 Subject: Re: EST To: diy_efi Message-id: <01HYOJX6C4G08WW6N3@MR.SEMATECH.Org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID UxJ6DWxGkEYSwE3PgHgQjw)" Posting-date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:26:00 -0600 (CST) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;70942111215991/1881242@VAXEN] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --Boundary (ID UxJ6DWxGkEYSwE3PgHgQjw) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII --Boundary (ID UxJ6DWxGkEYSwE3PgHgQjw) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:21:00 CST From: "Steve Knickerbocker"@MR.SEMATECH.Org Subject: Re: EST MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:00:00 CST A1-type: DOCUMENT At 08:40 PM 12/8/95 -0500, you wrote: >One problem with this setup, when the fifth magnetic pickup is triggered, is >it at TDC compression/power or is it TDC exhaust/intake. This is where you >need a magnetic pickup on the cam. > >See ya, > > >Mike No cam pickup is needed for dual coils or batch fired injectors, only one coil per cylinder, or sequential injector systems. -j- I've come to this conclusion this past weekend. What I need to know is the formula for convering mS to degrees at a given RPM. Steve --Boundary (ID UxJ6DWxGkEYSwE3PgHgQjw)-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 20:10:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA25594; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:57:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA25588; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:57:25 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA08439 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Dec 95 12:57:19 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA03633; Mon, 11 Dec 95 12:57:17 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA08535; Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:57:16 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15133; Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:52:05 CST Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:52:05 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512111952.AA15133@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > What I need to know is the > formula for convering mS to degrees at a given RPM. > > Steve uh... converting? RPM/60 = RPS ( Rev per SECOND ) RPS/360 = degrees per SECOND /* note 60*360 = 21600 */ so RPM/21,600 * 1000 (ms per second) = degrees per mS RPM/21.6 restated at: to obtain degrees per milliSecond divide RPM by 21.6 quick check: at 8,000 RPM = 370ms/Degree (sounds about right. ;-) Tom "This puppy redlines at 140Hz" Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 21:05:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA26256; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:57:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA26251; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:57:38 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA04393 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199512112048.AA04393@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:48:18 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:48:18 -0500 To: diy_efi Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: EST In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:52:05 CST." <9512111952.AA15133@roadster.autotest> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:57:29 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > What I need to know is the > > formula for convering mS to degrees at a given RPM. > > > > Steve > > uh... converting? > > RPM/60 = RPS ( Rev per SECOND ) > > RPS/360 = degrees per SECOND > > /* note 60*360 = 21600 */ > > so RPM/21,600 * 1000 (ms per second) = degrees per mS > > RPM/21.6 > > > restated at: > > to obtain degrees per milliSecond divide RPM by 21.6 > > quick check: > at 8,000 RPM = 370ms/Degree (sounds about right. ;-) > > > Tom "This puppy redlines at 140Hz" Walter I think the RPS/360 = deg/second above should be RPS*360 = deg/second. I get: N rev min s 360 deg ----- * ---- * ------- * ------- = N*360/(60*1000) deg/ms min 60 s 1000 ms rev = N * 0.006 deg/ms (where N is in rev/min) Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 21:48:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA26799; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 21:39:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gater3.sematech.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA26794; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:39:23 -0500 Received: from GATEV4.SEMATECH.ORG by gater3.sematech.org (8.6.12/F-1.9) with ESMTP id PAA07592; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:39:21 -0600 Received: from MR.SEMATECH.Org by SEMATECH.Org (PMDF V5.0-5 #5463) id <01HYOPSFANCG8WW6VN@SEMATECH.Org> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:39:07 -0600 (CST) Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:23:38 -0600 (CST) MR-Received: by mta GATEV3; Relayed; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:38:32 -0600 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:22:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759 Subject: thanx To: diy_efi Message-id: <01HYOPSJ8NAE8WW6VN@MR.SEMATECH.Org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:23:00 -0600 (CST) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;83325111215991/1881742@VAXEN] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Tom, Thanks for showing me the light. I'm afraid to even try and figure out what 140 hz equates to. I'm in a non math kinda day. Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 22:19:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA27136; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:11:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27131; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:11:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199512112211.RAA27131@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA280809873; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:11:13 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: EST To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:11:12 EST In-Reply-To: <199512112048.AA04393@internet-mail2.ford.com>; from "atsakiri@ford.com" at Dec 11, 95 3:57 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ > so RPM/21,600 * 1000 (ms per second) = degrees per mS ~ > ~ > RPM/21.6 ~ > My web page which computes piston velocity also computes the time in milliseconds per crankshaft degree: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html But dividing by 21.6 is probably *much* faster....... - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 11 22:33:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA27349; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:26:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27344; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:26:31 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA17945 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:26:29 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA08424; Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:26:27 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA29831; Mon, 11 Dec 95 16:26:26 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15207; Mon, 11 Dec 95 16:21:15 CST Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 16:21:15 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512112221.AA15207@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Egg on my face.... not only did I MIX UP my math on that, I also did not answer it as Steve requested. Sorry about that... ;-) > formula for convering mS to degrees at a given RPM Rev Minute s 360 degrees 6 degrees ------ * ------ * --------- * ------------ = ----------- Minute 60 s 1000 ms rev 1000 ms degrees per millisecond = RPM * 0.006 so at 8000 RPM, that is 48.0 degrees per millisecond. 600 RPM, that is 3.6 degrees per millisecond. [Thanks to John and Anothony for spotting such a mistake... I am much better at hiding them in obscure C calls. Then I wouldn't have a chance of getting it past John. ;-)] I'll stick to doing math in radians. ;-) Cheers, Tom "140Hz is just another way of saying 8,400 rpm" Walter > quick check: > at 8,000 RPM = 370ms/Degree (sounds about right. ;-) OPPS, no it doesn't!!!!! ;-( > Old Model T at idle, perhaps? > > Tom "This puppy redlines at 140Hz" Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 12 01:06:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA27993; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 00:55:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA27988; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:55:34 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA08283; Tue, 12 Dec 95 08:50:21 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA818787550 Tue, 12 Dec 95 08:59:10 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 08:59:10 Message-Id: <9511128187.AA818787550@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: thanx Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Guys, guys, guys According to my knowledge of basic physics and common knowledge 140 Hz is 8400 RPM or 50.4 deg/mS Dan Zorde ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: thanx Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 12/12/95 7:15 AM Tom, Thanks for showing me the light. I'm afraid to even try and figure out what 140 hz equates to. I'm in a non math kinda day. Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 03:01:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA03529; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:52:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from net.dris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA03524; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:52:54 -0500 Received: from peo42.dris.com (peo42.dris.com [199.120.109.242]) by net.dris.com (8.7.1/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA18584 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:51:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:51:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512130251.UAA18584@net.dris.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.dris.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@dris.com (David Doddek) Subject: reading the crank Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Lets take a look at a typical example of reading the crank for degrees. Say that you have a crank trigger wheel with 4 teeth. One being longer than the rest for sync reasons. The leading edge of each trigger point is 90 degrees before TDC for some cylinder (4 or 8 cyl engine). Now lets say that you want a delay of 60 degrees so that you will have 90-60=30 deg BTDC timing. Lets also assume that you have a 16 bit counter with a resolution of 1 count per microsecond. Measure the time between the leading edges of the two triggers before the desired timing event = delta t in microseconds. You know that during this time, the crank rotated 90 degrees. Relating these two quantities gives : delta t / 90 = microseconds per degree (mpd) (1) Multiply (1) by the desired delay in degrees (60): delta t (uS) --------------- * 60 deg = delay time in microseconds 90 deg So thus if you were to start timing from the instant that the trigger pulse occured, you will have an event at 30 deg BTDC. This event would then be used to turn off the coil. To get RPM from this information, we know that one revolution takes four times our delta t ,the time it took for our 90 degree crank segment. Since we have one revolution in some amount of microseconds and we want some number of revolutions in one minute, we need to convert. Our only incorrect term is time, so remember that there are 1 million microseconds in a second and 60 seconds in a minute. This gives 60,000,000 uS / Min (2) Multiply (2) by our microseconds per rev and: 60,000,000 (us) 1 rev ------------- * -------------- = RPM Min delta t * 4 (us) Of course there is more to this such as calculating when to turn on the coil and determining the sync of the crankshaft from the given triggers. Also it is up to the individual to come up with a clever way of doing the math in the simplest form. (Especially when using assembler, 60,000,000 is not a fun number). I hope that this was of help and answered some questions and I was not just babling. By the way this is the way that the Yamaha FZR 600 reads the crank, 3 short pulses and 1 long. And this is a very dynamic engine, so dont flame on only having 4 triggers per rev please. David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 04:48:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA03755; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 04:45:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from server.iadfw.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA03750; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:45:23 -0500 Received: from dal20-18.ppp.iadfw.net (dal20-18.ppp.iadfw.net [206.66.5.116]) by server.iadfw.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id WAA29059 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:45:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512130445.WAA29059@server.iadfw.net> X-Sender: ricrain@mail.airmail.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:44:49 -0600 To: diy_efi From: ricrain@airmail.net (Ric Rainbolt) Subject: Re: reading the crank Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >By the way this is the way that the Yamaha FZR 600 reads the crank, 3 short >pulses and 1 long. And this is a very dynamic engine, so dont flame on only >having 4 triggers per rev please. > Wow. The system I'm working on has 144 teeth. Guess I'll be *REALLY* accurate. :-) By the way, the starter ring on the flywheel is an excellent place to pick this up, no cogs, gears or wheels to add, just mill a hole for a reluctive sensor and voila! Of course, you may run into a problem if your CPU of choice can't keep up (i.e. 8051, etc). From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 07:11:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA03981; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:09:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA03976; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:08:55 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA17423; Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:03:45 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA818895129 Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:52:09 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:52:09 Message-Id: <9511138188.AA818895129@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: reading the crank Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu How do you know where on the crank stroke you are when all the teeth on the flywheel are the same, you can't really make one longer since the starter motor will then have a winge. Dan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: reading the crank Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 13/12/95 2:31 PM >By the way this is the way that the Yamaha FZR 600 reads the crank, 3 short >pulses and 1 long. And this is a very dynamic engine, so dont flame on only >having 4 triggers per rev please. > Wow. The system I'm working on has 144 teeth. Guess I'll be *REALLY* accurate. :-) By the way, the starter ring on the flywheel is an excellent place to pick this up, no cogs, gears or wheels to add, just mill a hole for a reluctive sensor and voila! Of course, you may run into a problem if your CPU of choice can't keep up (i.e. 8051, etc). From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 07:15:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA04007; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:15:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA04002; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:15:05 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA24927 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:15:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:15:04 -0500 Message-ID: <951213021503_71633232@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi cc: Mike@aol.com Subject: MAP sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey there, Was wondering if anyone tried to use MAP sensors and Bernollies equation to determine Mass Airflow. I'm thinking if one had three MAP sensors (one for ambiant air pressure, one for static pressure within a tube and one for a Pitot tube) one could figure out Mass Airflow. Has anyone done this before, please respond. See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 16:07:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA05404; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:59:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gwa.ericsson.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA05399; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:59:22 -0500 Received: from mr2.exu.ericsson.se (mr2.exu.ericsson.com [138.85.147.12]) by gwa.ericsson.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA07396 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:59:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from exucom.exu.ericsson.se (root@exucom.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.1.10]) by mr2.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.1/NAHUB-MR1.1) with SMTP id JAA25110 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:59:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (eusmsrt@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.20.125]) by exucom.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA01514 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:59:18 -0600 From: Markus Strobl Received: (eusmsrt@localhost) by b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA00882 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:59:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:59:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199512131559.JAA00882@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> To: diy_efi Subject: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >By the way this is the way that the Yamaha FZR 600 reads the crank, 3 short > >pulses and 1 long. And this is a very dynamic engine, so dont flame on only > >having 4 triggers per rev please. > > > Wow. The system I'm working on has 144 teeth. Guess I'll be *REALLY* > accurate. :-) I was reading the service manual for a '95 Camaro the other day, and saw something that looked weird. For the LT1 engine (5.7 liter V8), it seems they use TWO crank triggers. One low resolution, and one high resolution. If I recall correctly, the low resolution was 4 pulses per crank revolution, and the high one was 180 pulses per revolution. Does anyone know the reason for this? Is it some sort of failsafe, ie if one sensor failes, the engine runs in 'limp home mode'? I was impressed by some features of the engine management. One that I particulary liked was that the LT1 is a MAF type engine, but if the MAF sensor failes, the ECM will switch to speed density. Neat. Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect catcon degradation. Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. BTW, I won't buy the service manual for the '96 yet, because it still has 'Preliminary' written on it with big red letters. I want to wait until the final version is out. Markus Strobl 96 Z28 6M. !CAGS, 1LE driveshaft, PEG2, QLC, T-tops, leather. Black. Dallas, Texas 14.09 @99.40. 27.5mpg @85mph. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 19:45:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA06480; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:15:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from unix1.bart.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06475; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:15:41 -0500 Received: from dyna-28.bART.nl (dyna-28.bART.nl [194.72.68.149]) by unix1.bart.nl (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA21208 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:15:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199512131915.UAA21208@unix1.bart.nl> X-Sender: jsturs@bart.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:11:03 -0100 To: DIY_EFI From: jsturs@bart.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: ECM modifications Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Weds 13 Dec, Markus wrote: >Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I >read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to >comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects >misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a >misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect >catcon degradation. > >Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be >modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can ----------------------- >it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. > Markus, suggest you cure your static shock problems before playing with the ECM ;-) ;-) Fellow f-body lister? PS. remember what the smilies mean... Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@bart.nl From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 19:45:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA06513; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:18:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail13.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06508; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:18:48 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us4rmc.pko.dec.com by mail13.digital.com; (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA05137; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:13:36 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA02107; Wed, 13 Dec 95 13:53:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9512131853.AA02107@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us4rmc.enet; Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:15:08 EST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:15:08 EST To: diy_efi Cc: "eusmsrt@exu.ericsson.se"@us1rmc.ENET.dec.com, m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: diy_efi Subject: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Markus Strobl has written: > Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I > read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to > comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects > misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a > misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect > catcon degradation. > Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be > modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can > it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. An excellent source of information about OBD-II (On-Board Diagnostics, Level II) is the rule issued by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) on August 9, 1995. This rule has background information about the vehicle emission reduction requirements that led to OBD-II hardware and software. It also has pointers to additional information such as emissions-related data that all auto manufacturers must make freely available to the public. Fortunately, this emissions-related data contains much engine-performance-related data. The EPA rule has the formal title 40 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Parts 9 and 86 that appear on pages 40474 through 40498 of the Federal Register (Volume 60, Number 153). Any local EPA office should have the rule available for reading and photocopying. It's supposed to be available on the Internet by pointing your favorite browser to http://wais.access.gpo.gov or by telnetting to fedworld.gov and giving the command "/go epa" once you've registered and are at any menu. After issuing this command you should be able to find both the EPA rule and manufacturer-provided indexes to their cars' emissions- related data. As a last resort, send me an e-mail request and I'll reply with the EPA rule as a long=180,000 byte file. Another source of information is the OBD-II specifications for hardware and data stream messages. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) in Warrendale, Pennsylvania has a 1995 manual about this. Its number is either HS-3500 or HS-3000. The cost is about $65.00 (ouch!), but the contents are invaluable for someone who wants to interface his own IBM-compatible PC to his car's data stream. Warrendale, PA has a 412 area code and the SAE accepts plastic. Yes, the ECM can be temporarily overriden by electronic tools connected to a vehicle's OBD-II connector. This allows technicians to perform various diagnostic tests. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 13 20:14:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA06628; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:43:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06622; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:43:32 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm1-06.magicnet.net [204.96.116.56]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16888; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:43:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199512131943.OAA16888@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:41:20 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I was reading the service manual for a '95 Camaro the other day, and saw >something that looked weird. For the LT1 engine (5.7 liter V8), it seems >they use TWO crank triggers. One low resolution, and one high resolution. >If I recall correctly, the low resolution was 4 pulses per crank revolution, >and the high one was 180 pulses per revolution. > >Does anyone know the reason for this? Is it some sort of failsafe, ie >if one sensor failes, the engine runs in 'limp home mode'? My guess is that they wait for the 4 tooth one to pass to identify 90 deg BTDC and the count the 180 one to get within 2 degrees of the correct timing then set the counter off to delay until the timing comes correct. Also, I would start charging the coil up at 90 deg BTDC and use a variable dwell angle Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 00:45:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA07592; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:42:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07587; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:42:38 -0500 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com(really [131.168.254.216]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 13 Dec 95 18:42:37 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.4 built 17-oct-95) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 13 Dec 95 18:42:36 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.3 built 13-oct-95) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Wed, 13 Dec 95 18:42:31 CST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 18:42:28 CST Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com Wrote: | | | Markus Strobl has written: | | | | > Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I | > read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to | > comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects | > misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a | > misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect | > catcon degradation. | | > Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be | > modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can | > it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. | | | | An excellent source of information about OBD-II (On-Board Diagnostics, | Level II) is the rule issued by the Environmental Protection Agency | (EPA) on August 9, 1995. This rule has background information about | the vehicle emission reduction requirements that led to OBD-II hardware | and software. It also has pointers to additional information such as | emissions-related data that all auto manufacturers must make freely | available to the public. Fortunately, this emissions-related data | contains much engine-performance-related data. I skimmed this document, all I really got out of it was that the EPA is requiring manufacturers to make available to the general public all emmissions related repair information that they make available to their dealers. (available not implying free). It also seems to require that reprogramming of the ECM be allowed, and the information to accomplish that must be made available. But the information can be made available indirectly, in the form of a device that can reprogram the ECM, without actually revealing how to reprogram it. Did I miss anything? | | The EPA rule has the formal title 40 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) | Parts 9 and 86 that appear on pages 40474 through 40498 of the Federal | Register (Volume 60, Number 153). Any local EPA office should have | the rule available for reading and photocopying. It's supposed to | be available on the Internet by pointing your favorite browser to | http://wais.access.gpo.gov or by telnetting to fedworld.gov and giving | the command "/go epa" once you've registered and are at any menu. | After issuing this command you should be able to find both the EPA | rule and manufacturer-provided indexes to their cars' emissions- | related data. As a last resort, send me an e-mail request and I'll | reply with the EPA rule as a long=180,000 byte file. These indices are basically a list of the available service manuals, TSB, training kits, etc. Each has a note attached saying to contact *whoever* to purchase the information. It's presented as a list of files like this: gmc0001.txt gmc0002.txt .. doing a search for "corvette" and "bulletin" results in a list of TSBs related to corvettes. The training kits looked interesting, they included: Description: Corvette CCM *3 * Description Information 1 = Manual 2 = Student Workbook 3 = Instructor's Guide 4 = Overhead Slide Set 5 = Binder 6 = Student Package 7 = Systematic Troubleshooting Poster 8 = Complaint Description Form 9 = ECM Inputs Exercise 10 = ECM Outputs Exercise Prices ranged from $10 to $25 or so. I wonder if anyone knows what is really in these kits? | | Another source of information is the OBD-II specifications for | hardware and data stream messages. The Society of Automotive Engineers | (SAE) in Warrendale, Pennsylvania has a 1995 manual about this. Its | number is either HS-3500 or HS-3000. The cost is about $65.00 (ouch!), | but the contents are invaluable for someone who wants to interface | his own IBM-compatible PC to his car's data stream. Warrendale, PA | has a 412 area code and the SAE accepts plastic. | | Yes, the ECM can be temporarily overriden by electronic tools connected | to a vehicle's OBD-II connector. This allows technicians to perform | various diagnostic tests. | | Marll McDonald KB1AGM | m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com | | Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 05:28:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA08282; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 05:24:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08277; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:23:52 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id WAA12072 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:10:39 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:26 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:17:20 EDT Message-Id: <9511140517.AA16728@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: EST Systems To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:17:18 MDT From: dn Cc: jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com In-Reply-To: <9511061716.AA16552@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca>; from "dn" at Dec 6, 95 10:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To revive an old thread, I think I may have stumbled onto the key to the GM 7 pin ignition module. After seeing on some thread a reference to the Motorola MC3333 ignition control chip, I started browsing some of my data books for ignition controllers and remembered that Allegro Microsystems makes a lot of specialty automotive chips. I looked in their automotives section, and sure enough, they make a chip called, appropriately enough, an Electronic Spark Timing Controller, their part number ULQ2460A. After reading through the data sheet, it struck me that the device they were describing matches the info that I have on the GM 7 pin module EXACTLY! The chip is "intended to interface between conventional electromagnetic pickups, a computer controlled electronic spark timing (EST) computer, and a high efficiency ignition coil" (quoted from the databook). They even call it an EST! After looking more closely at the data sheet, they describe an application schematic where there are 3 connection points to the computer: 1. Reference - signal conditioned output from the pickup 2. EST (Electronic Spark Timing) - control input from the EST computer, allows the CPU complete control over ignition functions 3. Bypass - causes the device to internally process the Reference signal to control dwell, spark timing, and spark advance without the aid of the computer Coincidence? I think not! Of course, the applications schematic shows a few external components, including some RC time constants, a PNP darlington coil driver, etc., but the description is almost word for word the same as GM's own description of the module. The good part of all this is that the data sheet lists all the thresholds for the inputs and outputs, and gives an internal schematic of the chip which shows the innermost secrets of the device. For anyone who is interested, the address for these guys is: Allegro Microsystems Inc. 115 Northeast Cutoff Box 15036 Worcester MA 01615 Voice (508) 853-5000 Fax (508) 853-5049 You should be able to call their Customer Service department and request a free copy of the databook. Also, if you lie through your teeth and tell them that you're going to buy 10,000 or so units, they can probably be convinced to send you some free engineering samples. | Specific to jwharris: | I recall in an earlier message in this thread you said that you had | access to schematics of the modules, I wonder if it would be a | breach of confidentiality to confirm whether or not this is the main | component of the Delco module? If not, it will save me and probably | others a lot of time dinking around with a scope under the hood of | the ol' Chebby. If so, I think that I have sufficiently convinced | myself that this is, indeed the heart of the EST "7 pin" module and | I will proceed merrily on from here. regards dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 14:28:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA09364; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:22:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uhavax.hartford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09359; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:38 -0500 Received: by uhavax.hartford.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 134; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:26 EDT Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:24 EDT From: "Nietzsche is dead. -God" To: diy_efi Message-ID: <0099AD8E.24916500.134@uhavax.hartford.edu> Subject: Prices... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm wondering how much should one pay for and efi unit unprogrammed. I have gotten a few quotes and was rather shocked. (Of course I was asking for an 8096 so that may have something to do with it.) --Mark Hofmann "Hofmann@uhavax.hartford.edu" Sig? Whazzat? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 17:57:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA10722; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:50:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA10717; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:50:21 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01HYSKBFI6TS93J36R@VCA.GI.COM>; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <30D06264@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:44:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Injector flow rate (long post) To: "toyota-mods@cyberauto.com" Cc: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" , "diy_efi (postings)" , Matti Kalalahti Message-id: <30D06264@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 125 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Some people on the list were asking about flow rates of various injectors from Toyota engines. Here is some data from the 22RTE engine. I have measured the flow rate of four injectors from a Toyota 22RTE engine, from a 1986 truck (estimated year). This is a turbo charged version of the 22RE, with the CT20 turbo. DATA Tested by: Bryan Zublin Date of test: January 1992. Location: Poway, California, USA Injector part number: Toyota 23250-35020. Gasoline: Mobil Super+ unleaded, 92 octane (min), color yellow-green. Gasoline density: 0.75 grams/mL. Fuel pressure: 38 psi. Air temp: 16 to 18 deg C. Injector current: 1.45 amps. Duration of test: 60 +/- 0.5 seconds. Number of trials: 4 or 5 per injector. Here is the data for each injector (following cleaning): #1: 298, 296, 299, 297, 297; avg = 297.4 mL/min. #2: 307, 307, 307, 307; avg = 307.0 mL/min. #3: 296, 297, 297, 298, 298; avg = 297.2 mL/min. #4: 299, 301, 301, 301; avg = 300.5 mL/min. Note: mL/minute is the same as cc/minute. NOTES The Bentley Service Manual for the Toyota Pickup and 4Runner (published 1988) lists the injector flow rates as shown below. I believe that this information is NOT correct. Engine Year Flow Max delta between injectors 22RE 1984-1986 160-200 cc/min 6 cc 22RTE 1985-1987 160-200 cc/min 6 cc 22RTE 1988 260-320 cc/min 8 cc This information conflicts with the 1987 and 1988 Toyota Factory Service Manual, which lists the flow rate for the 22RTE as 260 to 320 cc/min. Also, there are only two injector part numbers listed for the production run of this engine, with the most common on model years 1986 through 1988. Manufacture Date Injector Assembly Number 8501-8508 (model year 1985) 23209-35010 8508-8808 (model years 1986-1988) 23209-35020 The assembly contains the grommet and O ring, so the part number is different that the number on the injector itself. It appears that I have the later injectors. It is interesting to note that the specs on each injector are quite wide (around +/- 10% of the center), while the spec on the variation between injectors is quite tight (around +/- 3%). This would imply that the injectors are matched in the factory as a set before being installed on the engine. TEST PROCEDURE The injector was turned on for 60 seconds and the fuel was collected in a beaker. The fuel and beaker were then weighed on a triple beam Ohaus balance and the volume was calculated based on the density of the fuel. The density of the fuel was previously measured using three different containers (a 300 mL beaker, 10 mL graduated cylinder, and a 100 mL volumetric flask). The three measurements were 0.747, 0.75, and 0.753 grams/mL. The average is 0.75 grams/mL. Each injector was tested 5 times, and then cleaned with Red Line SI-1 Injector & Valve Detergent. The injectors were then tested 4 or 5 more times each. Cleaning the injectors improved the flow rates of all injectors, with the most significant change occurring to injector #1 (16% increase). TEST SETUP Fuel Reservoir | Fuel Pump (1) | Pulsation Damper (2) | Fuel Filter (3) | Fuel Filter (4) | Pulsation Damper (5) | Fuel Rail (6) | |---- Fuel Injectors (7) --- Hose --- Beaker | |---- Pressure Gauge (8) | Pressure Regulator (9) ---- Reference port (10) (vent to atmosphere) | Return to Fuel Reservoir (1) Fuel Pump: from a 1978 Datsun 280Z, the type that mounts external to the gas tank. (2) Pulsation Damper: came with the fuel pump. (3) Fuel Filter: for Nissan / Datsun cars, Puraltor PF-3128. (4) Fuel Filter: the stock Toyota fuel filter for the 22RTE engine. (5) Pulsation Damper: the stock Toyota part, mounted to the start of the fuel rail. (6) Fuel Rail: from the same engine. (7) Fuel Injectors: from the same engine, part number marking 23250-35020. (8) Pressure Gauge: from Napa Auto Parts, PN 700-1487. (9) Pressure Regulator: from the same engine, mounted to the end of the fuel rail. (10) Reference Port: this is normally connected to the intake manifold of the engine. It was left unconnected and vented to the atmosphere for this test. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 17:59:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA10769; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:58:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail13.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA10764; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:58:18 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us4rmc.pko.dec.com by mail13.digital.com; (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA06691; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:51:11 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA08279; Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:34:27 -0500 Message-Id: <9512141734.AA08279@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us4rmc.enet; Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:52:44 EST Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:52:44 EST To: diy_efi Cc: sravet@bangate.compaq.com, m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: sravet@bangate.compaq.com, diy_efi Subject: RE: re: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve Ravet writes: > I skimmed this document [the EPA document about OBD-II}, all I really > got out of it was that the EPA is requiring manufacturers to make > available to the general public all emmissions related repair > information that they make available to their dealers. (available > not implying free). It also seems to require that reprogramming of > the ECM be allowed, and the information to accomplish that must be > made available. But the information can be made available indirectly, > in the form of a device that can reprogram the ECM, without actually > revealing how to reprogram it. Did I miss anything? The EPA document forces manufacturers to make available all their emissions-related repair information that, in turn, contains *much* performance-related information. It's not free, but it's not the dozens/hundreds of dollars per manual that the manufacturers would probably like to charge and it is easily available. Many related companies, such as Helms in Detroit, have toll-free numbers and accept plastic. These companies must ship the technical information within a day or two of receiving an order. Apparently limited reprogramming of a vehicle's ECM is allowed so that technicians can look for problems and verify that they've been solved. I don't know much about reprogramming. My goal is to be able to *read* the messages moving among sensors, the ECM, and actuators. I have no desire to *write* or *alter* these messages. About "available service manuals, TSBs, training kits, etc." -- these are what manufacturers make available to technicians at dealerships, so I assume they contain information that's valuable to skilled do-it-yourselfers such as members of this mailing list. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 20:12:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA11486; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:04:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11472; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:04:00 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA00672 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:40:36 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:56 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:47:20 EDT Message-Id: <9511141947.AA16746@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: MAP sensors To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:47:16 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <951213021503_71633232@emout05.mail.aol.com>; from "MTaylorfi@aol.com" at Dec 13, 95 2:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Was wondering if anyone tried to use MAP sensors and Bernollies equation to > determine Mass Airflow. I'm thinking if one had three MAP sensors (one for Mike: Dodge used to use a system similar to this in their earlier fuel injection systems. Don't know if they still use it or not. As I recall, though, they used vanes in the inlet to create a vortex in the airflow sensor, and a couple of pitot tubes to measure the pressure at the center of the vortex. Was a little more complicated than that, somehow they relied on the vortex "whipping" around in the tube and measured the frequency of the resulting pressure pulses. I got this from a book called: Domestic Electronic Fuel Injection and Computer Systems by Frederick D. Allen Prentice Hall ISBN 0-13-218256-4 This book is worthwhile reading, although it doesn't go into much detail on the electronics side, it describes fuel injection systems in general from the Big 3 and is a good overall reference. As far as using a venturi or the like, the pressure differentials involved are very small and difficult to measure. I think you'd need an accurate (read "Expensive") differential pressure sensor to do it, along with temp comp, etc. I don't think the stock MAP sensor would be sensitive enough for the pressures involved. May be do-able but not easy or cheap. If the Big 3 don't do it, it ain't cost effective! Regards dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 14 21:03:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA11682; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:46:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11677; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:46:00 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA09484 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:36:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199512142036.AA09484@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:36:04 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:36:04 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAP sensors In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:47:16 MDT." <9511141947.AA16746@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 15:45:50 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > somehow they relied on the vortex "whipping" around in the tube and > measured the frequency of the resulting pressure pulses. Vague recollections: Toyota may use this vortex/frequency method in recent or current models. You might check them out. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 02:12:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA13069; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 02:01:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA13064; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:01:13 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA22274 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:01:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:01:03 -0500 Message-ID: <951214210101_73222500@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: All the EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or dyno tests. If someone has a unique engine, I can see the custom setup. And also delay spark for detonation control. But there is a certain point of advancing an engine's timing to get maximum performance. Any more advance and you loose power!!! Just pointin' out the forest, since some people are stairin' at trees. See ya, Mike PS Let the comments begin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 02:48:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA13143; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 02:40:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA13138; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:40:56 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.29.1 #14) id m0tQQ3X-000CuNC; Thu, 14 Dec 95 20:39 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) Subject: Re: All the EST To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:39:31 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <951214210101_73222500@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "MTaylorfi@aol.com" at Dec 14, 95 09:01:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1722 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu MTaylorfi@aol.com writes: > > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. uhm, this ain't the dragrace list, dude. For most of us the throttle has many more positions than ON and OFF. Top fuelers run at WOT, near constant load and speed i believe. They can't benefit from spark advance of any form. My 68 Camaro's 350 on the other hand sees full throttle at any speed between 1800 RPM and 5500RPM... and theres a significant difference in MBT timing for 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT on my motor. If I was just worried about WOT, tho, good ole mechanical advance would do everything I need. But I spend a lot more time at part throttle on the street than I do at WOT. And the difference between MBT timing at 1800RPM idling and 1800RPM WOT is MUCH larger than the difference between MBT timing at 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT. SO it probably won't help your quarter mile... but it'll sure help your idle, fuel economy, streetability, etc. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@knuth.mtsu.edu http://www.hotrod.com (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 03:33:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA13429; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 03:25:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA13424; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:25:08 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-236.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.236]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id WAA07263 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:25:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:25:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199512150325.WAA07263@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Markus Strobl has written: > > > >> Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I >> read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to >> comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects >> misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a >> misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect >> catcon degradation. > >> Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be >> modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can >> it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. > > Marcus: Before you modify your ECM let me tell you about a little conversation I have had with a GM engineer who actually worked in ECM design. GM will be designing their new vcm (vehicle control module) with anti-tampering software. There are three levels of information available on the new vcm: 1) general engine diagnostics (freely available to scan tools) 2) dealership functions (like clearing the trouble codes) 3) emissions functions ( fuel maps, shift maps, ignition timing) As you can guess, level two will be only available to authorized service personnel. Level three will be protected from modifications from everyone except GM. If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! Yup, it sucks don't it? I asked the engineer "Why!?" and he replied it is because of liability concerns that GM is implementing this type of security. --- Thought you would like to know that I am going to buy me a used '95 or '96 in a few years. I don't want the '97 anymore. ---Dan From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 05:18:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA13647; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 05:10:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA13642; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:10:05 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:05:37 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 21:09:58 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9512150509.utk13069@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: All the EST To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just had to put my two cents in about this one. You mentioned that top fuel dragsters are running magnetos and running in the 4 second 1/4 mile times. This is very much true. What you didn't mention was that electronic engine controls (CONTROLS, not MONITORs) of any kind are illigal in NHRA top fuel and funny car drag racing. The reason they don't (and they would love to go with fuel injection and electroic ignition. Do you know how hard it is to light nitromethane?) is they can't. NHRA feals that it would take a large part of the driver skill away if they allowed electronic engine controls. Think how easy it would be to control the ignition so that the wheel slippage was maintained at a constant percent? No more "Up is smoke" for the big boys! Clint From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 06:38:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA13888; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 06:25:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA13883; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:25:21 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc67.xmission.com [204.228.136.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA23463 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:25:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199512150625.XAA23463@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:25:15 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 22:25 12/14/95 -0500, you wrote: >GM will be designing their new vcm (vehicle control module) with anti-tampering >software. There are three levels of information available on the new vcm: > 1) general engine diagnostics (freely available to scan tools) > 2) dealership functions (like clearing the trouble codes) > 3) emissions functions ( fuel maps, shift maps, ignition timing) This is already in effect in any brain that is OBD-II compliant to some degree (flash eeprom, security codes to reprogram, etc) Even the OBD-I (or is it just OBD) had SOME anti-tamper functions, like multiple checksums, and max revs stored elsewhere in the vehicle (instrument cluster!) >As you can guess, level two will be only available to authorized service >personnel. Level three will be protected from modifications from everyone >except GM. Yeah, and then someone with a little savvy will pull the EEPROMS from a fully functional brain, dump the code, disassemble it and figure out all the little minefields ... as they have with every OEM trick so far .. Currently, I'm working on doing this for the Bosch M5.2 and Siemens MS41.1 controllers in the new BMWs (my bag is Bosch Motronic) All of their new stuff is EEPROM/Anti-Tamper per OBD-II (yuk!!) Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 15:50:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA15268; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:39:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from alpha.xerox.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15263; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:39:33 -0500 Received: from x-wb-ngm-mime.cinops.xerox.com ([13.250.20.31]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14466(6)>; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:39:18 PST X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 15-Dec-1995 08:52:02 -0600; at X-SO-AREA-HUB.XEROX X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 15-Dec-1995 9:56:00 -0500; at X-WB-NGM-MIME.XEROX X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 15-Dec-1995 08:56:01 -0600; at X-SO-4260-MS1.XEROX Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 05:57:05 PST From: Brad_Miller@so.xerox.com (Miller,Brad) To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <"<7482D1308175657C>7482D1308175657C@X-SO-4260-MS1.XEROX"@-SMF-> Subject: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Say - - I've got a question . . . . I've got a 2.5L TBI Dodge in a '93 Duster. I'm looking for a little more pickup and I've been told that the stock intake manifold sucks . . . (BTW: I might have asked this before . .. mind is slipping . . ) I'm wondering if it's feasible to scavenge the local boneyard for a 2 peice intake manifold from a turbo car and to use it with my existing TBI unit. The different intake manifold is actually a "tuned" setup. I'm told it was originally designed for non-turbo applications. For right now, I'd keep the injectors in place (but not hooked up) or I'd plug those holes up. I'm thinking of fashioning a mounting plate to mount my stock TBI unit on the manifold. Has anyone done anything like this? I know there has to be other cars that people have converted from one type of system to another. My long-term goal would be to convert this car to a fuel-injected turbo setup, and this would start the ball rolling. Also - - another more in-depth question: The stock 2.2/2.5 motors from Chrysler had only 8.0:1 compression, my motor is "supposedly" got about 9-9.5:1. I've read numerous articles in "Sport Compact Car" and "Turbo and Hi-Tech Performance" on systems running under boost with compression ratios that high. What would the benefit of the higher compression ratio be? I love my car's current off the line torque, and I'm afraid that lowering the compression ratio will hurt it significantly. Anyone got any ideas on that? Thanks a lot! I've been following a long quietly on the sidelines here . . . . I've also got a few ideas about converting my 2.2 Shelby Charger from Webers to fuel injection - - - I was looking at aftermarket throttle bodies for the Weber manifold - - but it might be easier to put the 2.2 Turbo II intake on and sell the Webers. Bradley Miller Midwest Shelby Dodge Automobile Club brad_miller@so.xerox.com or brad2dbone@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 15 15:58:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA15339; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:55:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15334; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:55:34 -0500 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com(really [131.168.254.216]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 15 Dec 95 09:36:28 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.4 built 17-oct-95) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 15 Dec 95 09:32:28 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.3 built 13-oct-95) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Fri, 15 Dec 95 9:32:11 CST Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 9:32:01 CST Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: RE: Playing with the ECM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Wrote: | | > | >Markus Strobl has written: | > | > | > | >> Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I | >> read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to | >> comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects | >> misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a | >> misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect | >> catcon degradation. | > | >> Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be | >> modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can | >> it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. | > | > | | Marcus: Before you modify your ECM let me tell you about a little conversation | I have had with a GM engineer who actually worked in ECM design. | | GM will be designing their new vcm (vehicle control module) with anti-tampering | software. There are three levels of information available on the new vcm: | 1) general engine diagnostics (freely available to scan tools) | 2) dealership functions (like clearing the trouble codes) | 3) emissions functions ( fuel maps, shift maps, ignition timing) | | As you can guess, level two will be only available to authorized service | personnel. Level three will be protected from modifications from everyone | except GM. | | If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level | three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct | access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a | non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! | | Yup, it sucks don't it? | | I asked the engineer "Why!?" and he replied it is because of liability | concerns that GM is implementing this type of security. | | --- Thought you would like to know that I am going to buy me a used '95 or '96 | in a few years. I don't want the '97 anymore. | | ---Dan | | | I'd be interested in hearing that conversation. The EPA published a rule in the Federal Register Aug 9 1995 that basically deals with what information has to be on the OBD bus. Anything emissions related must be present and compliant with OBD-II specs so that any generic scan tool can read it. In addition, *any* information relating to the diagnosis or repair of OBD systems that is available to dealers must also be made available to the general public. Finally, manufacturers must have provisions for reprogramming ECMs in the interest of emissions related repair. Since dealers have to know how to reprogram ECMs, the manufacturers will have to make that info available to everyone else. The catch is, they can make it available "indirectly", in the form of a device that does the reprogramming, without telling people how it's actually done. This conversation happened just this week somewhere else (on the efi332 list?) so sorry if this is a repeat... The bottom line is, keeping independant shops (and owners) from being able to repair their own cars is anti-competitive behavior. Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 16 00:41:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA16791; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:38:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA16786; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:37:52 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA08373 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:37:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:37:51 -0500 Message-ID: <951215193751_91436322@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Moper Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-15 11:15:44 EST, you write: > higher compression ratio be? I love my car's current off the line > torque, and I'm afraid that lowering the compression ratio will hurt > it significantly. Anyone got any ideas on that? > > Yeah, detonation! the higher the compression, the less the boost you can run (pretty much). See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 16 01:59:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA16964; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 01:58:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA16959; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:58:08 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01HYUFT6TGRK93EMJD@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <30D22781@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:57:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:58:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... To: "diy_efi (postings)" Cc: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Message-id: <30D22781@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 18 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Andrew wrote: >The location is: >ftp://cim.cim.swin.edu.au/pub/uploads/aden/ > >the files are: > >67f687.pdf (binary) >67f687.ps (ascii) >67f687.zip (binary) Andrew, Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. Thanks, Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 16 06:06:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA17907; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 05:58:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA17902; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:58:55 -0500 From: Watergeo@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA16053 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:58:44 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:58:44 -0500 Message-ID: <951216005843_74051547@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: All the EST Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I think most of the DYI-EFI guys are in it more for the application of techie/engineering/physics/computer geek expertise (by all means, nothing negative intended). The vehicle would need to show improved street drivability of course and If the rig goes faster in the 1/4, then that would be a positive side benefit. Just my first take as a casual observer. I, however, will continue to soak up the info, in case I can make my own vehicles go faster... Nick Hagen From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 16 16:19:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA18764; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:09:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ibmPCUG.CO.UK by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA18759; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:09:15 -0500 Received: from kate.ibmpcug.co.uk by alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK id aa21585; 16 Dec 95 16:09 GMT Received: from turbo by kate.ibmpcug.co.uk id aa06795; 16 Dec 95 16:08 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:16:46 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <87@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:16:45 Subject: Re: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, My name is Brian Warburton and I run a small (2 man) company in the UK producing engine management systems for aftermarket use. I was a consultant at Ford Motor Co. on EEC-IV software design from 1986 to 1994 and used to be reasonable knowledgable about OBD-ii. Unfortunately I seem to have forgotten most of it now and only have an email-type Internet connection so can't browse anything. I'd like to take you up on your offer if at all possible : >As a last resort, send me an e-mail request and I'll >reply with the EPA rule as a long=180,000 byte file. > Thanks very much. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 16 18:34:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA18951; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:25:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA18946; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:25:46 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA22027 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:25:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:25:46 -0500 Message-ID: <951216132544_91973644@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Brad, You probably won't like what happens to the throttle response when you move the TBI unit to the end of a longer tuned manifold. A dyno may or may not tell you that you're making more torque, but the seat of your pants will probably be disappointed. You also may wind up with mixture distribution problems and horrible emissions because you're using a manifold that was not designed for wet flow. If you run good gas (92 octane pump) and keep the boost within reason(4-6psi) you shouldn't have problems with a published 9.5:1 compression. This also assumes you can optimize fuel deliviery(mixture and distribution) and spark timing. You would probably like the characteristics of this motor more than a lower compression higher boost setup. Some ways of lowering compression without new pistons would include a cam with more duration (10 more degrees of duration costs about 0 .5 points of compression), thicker head gasket (there is usually not much here), and/or porting the combustion chamber to unshroud the valves. Are there other heads available for this engine with larger combustion chambers?. The best advice I can give you though is to sell the car you have and buy the turbo version. Why try to make something almost as good as a factory turbo, when you can focus on improving the turbo version? In general, turbo cars come with premium suspensions, brakes, upgraded cooling systems, upgraded engine components, transmissions etc. The cost savings of starting with the cheaper car are an illusion, even if you don't value your time. I'm not sure what the emissions laws are in your end of the country, but if they have an inspection program the modifications you're considering will smoke the resale value of the car. If you don't have much money to spend, and want to really fly, buy a motorcycle. Good Luck, and have fun with it whichever way you go. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 17 04:06:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA20444; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:52:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA20439; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:52:03 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:51:24 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:51:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:51:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199512170351.UAA06932@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... Cc: BZUBLIN@PO2.GI.COM Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Andrew wrote: > > >The location is: > >ftp://cim.cim.swin.edu.au/pub/uploads/aden/ > > > >the files are: > > > >67f687.pdf (binary) > >67f687.ps (ascii) > >67f687.zip (binary) > > Andrew, > Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe > you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. > Thanks, > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@gi.com > I put the postscript file in the diy_efi www pages. Try: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi/component_info/ RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 18 12:32:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA22962; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:22:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA22957; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:22:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199512181222.HAA22957@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA06867; Mon, 18 Dec 95 07:22:48 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: BKM's box? To: DIY_EFI (diy_efi) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 7:22:48 "EST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just read an article about a "Configurable Electronic Engine Control Computer" in the September issue of Automotive Engineer. The author was Dave Steinmeyer of BKM. I assume it is BKM's box that he was writing about. Has anyone had any experience with this controller? Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 18 19:18:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA23841; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:14:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA23836; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:14:02 -0500 Received: from oak.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA26199; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:14:58 -0500 Received: by oak.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA26921; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:13:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:13:01 -0500 (EST) From: Bob Valentine To: diy_efi Subject: Re: All the EST In-Reply-To: <951214210101_73222500@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. I agree with what you're saying. For a drag car you probably don't need EST. But in the real world we don't drive with the gas pedal in a binary state. ;^> Part throttle advance and varying engine loads are not a part of a drag car, whereas they are on a street driven vehicle. I'm looking into EST since I find the old tune-flog-tune-repeat cycle of setting an advance curve to be rather annoying. It would be much easier to adjust it from inside the car. You can also add modifiers for engine temp or other outside factors, something you cannot do with mechanical advance. As you pointed out, you can also have detonation control - here's one thing that would be good for a drag car, since detonation under boost or N20 is _*NOT*_ a good thing! This can also compensate for varying qualities of gas - I know that if I fill up with Mobil, I've got to back off the advance so I don't ping, whereas the same grade of other gasolines DOES detonate. > PS Let the comments begin. Thank god this is a list and not a newsgroup... otherwise I would be advising you to get some abestos undershorts! --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@liii.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 18 20:24:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA24318; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:20:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id PAA24313; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:20:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:20:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199512182020.PAA24313@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Brad_Miller@so.xerox.com (Miller,Brad) Subject: Re: Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks to SBrady on this one. I'm still kicking around the idea of the "real" system - with a fully programmable setup. That would fix my delimma - -- of course . . . just dropping in the V6 version into this car would fix my power problems . . . hmm . . . My other question is still sitting in the back of my mind - - I'm building a 2.5L motor - - but alas - - it doesn't have a turbo or fuel injection . . . . yet . . . but I've seen some systems based upon what I already have (dual Webers). It'd be a straight forward blow-thru system . . . hmm . . . that might be worth experimenting with . . . I'll have to see how energetic I feel this summer/year. Catch ya' all later! Bradley Miller Xerox Business Services, Kansas City Midwest Shelby Dodge Automobile Club Inc. Email: Brad_Miller@so.xerox.com Alternate: Brad2dbone@aol.com ---------- <*>From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu <*>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu <*>Cc: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu <*>Subject: Re: <*>Date: Saturday, December 16, 1995 10:25AM <*> <*>Brad, <*> <*>You probably won't like what happens to the throttle response when you move <*>the TBI unit to the end of a longer tuned manifold. A dyno may or may not <*>tell you that you're making more torque, but the seat of your pants will <*>probably be disappointed. You also may wind up with mixture distribution <*>problems and horrible emissions because you're using a manifold that was not <*>designed for wet flow. ---- SNIP ---- <*> <*>The best advice I can give you though is to sell the car you have and buy the <*>turbo version. Why try to make something almost as good as a factory turbo, <*>when you can focus on improving the turbo version? In general, turbo cars <*>come with premium suspensions, brakes, upgraded cooling systems, upgraded <*>engine components, transmissions etc. The cost savings of starting with the <*>cheaper car are an illusion, even if you don't value your time. I'm not sure <*>what the emissions laws are in your end of the country, but if they have an <*>inspection program the modifications you're considering will smoke the resale <*>value of the car. Well -- actually this car already has all the upgraded stuff - - - the only thing it's lacking is the V6 motor that it's brothers have. (The early predecessors had turbo-4's.) This car has the suspension mods, brakes, and even upgraded electrical system - - just not the other motor. <*> <*>If you don't have much money to spend, and want to really fly, buy a <*>motorcycle. Got one - -- 1971 Honda . . . . it's a blast. Plus - - my other car (besides the daily driver) is the one I like to have fun and fly in . . . just changing carb bought me ~1 second off quarter mile. Not bad for $450. <*> <*>Good Luck, and have fun with it whichever way you go. <*> <*>SBrady <*> Thanks again! From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 18 21:24:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24552; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:20:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chs.mb.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24547; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:20:20 -0500 Received: from porky.chs.mb.ca by chs.mb.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19615; Mon, 18 Dec 95 15:22:00 CST Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 15:22:00 CST From: jgiles@chs.mb.ca (John Giles) Message-Id: <9512182122.AA19615@chs.mb.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 18 21:53:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24762; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:48:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24757; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:48:56 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01HYYDYW22LS93G1WJ@VCA.GI.COM>; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <30D5E17F@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:47:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... To: fridman Cc: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <30D5E17F@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 14 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I put the postscript file in the diy_efi www pages. Try: >http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi/component_info/ > RF. Robert, Thanks for putting the files on the www page. I was able to download and print the .ps file. The datasheet is quite extensive (55 pages) - did you get the Postscript file direct from SSI? By the way, I originally tried reading the .pdf file with Adobe's Acrobat Reader, but it said that the file was password protected. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 00:00:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA25091; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:45:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA25086; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:14 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-224.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.224]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA09804; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199512182345.SAA09804@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Cc: sravet@bangate.compaq.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve: I wish you could have been there too. I think you are onto something when you say that emissions changes could be made with simple black-box techniques. More than likely it would come in the form of modifications to the Tech-1 diagnostic scan tool that GM sells to the dealership. You are right too. It is uncompetitive. I have to admit, I went round and round with our nameless VCM engineer about how it was a rather unpopular and unwise path that GM was taking. His argument was that if comeone wraps their supercharged, intercooled, computer-modified Chevy Z28 around a tree at 168MPH, it will be GM that gets sued, not the aftermarket manufacturers or the mechanic who installed all of this equipment. I said that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in that case. The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Anything that would change the net output of the powertrain (such as headers, modified intake tracts, non-stock gear ratios, cylinder porting, etc.) could place the powertrain outside it's programmed fuel map, causing an engine fault condition to be stored. Gee, if this was the old west, I'd feel kind of like I was buying a horse that could only follow the wagon trail where everyone else has already gone. Is trailblazing going to die? I doubt it. A few years of this cynical thinking will prevail, then some automotive company ( Nissan? Chrysler? Hyundai? ) will come out with this little ripper that is supported by a million aftermarket suppliers. Company supported modifications will make it the fastest(and cheapest) darn thing on two wheels and thousands of performance buffs will flock to a new badge. -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 00:00:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA25098; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:46:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA25093; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:59 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ip-224.dial.voyager.net [198.109.136.224]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA10636; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199512182345.SAA10636@vixa.voyager.net> X-Sender: ws6transam@vixa.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk) Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Cc: sravet@bangate.compaq.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve: I wish you could have been there too. I think you are onto something when you say that emissions changes could be made with simple black-box techniques. More than likely it would come in the form of modifications to the Tech-1 diagnostic scan tool that GM sells to the dealership. You are right too. It is uncompetitive. I have to admit, I went round and round with our nameless VCM engineer about how it was a rather unpopular and unwise path that GM was taking. His argument was that if comeone wraps their supercharged, intercooled, computer-modified Chevy Z28 around a tree at 168MPH, it will be GM that gets sued, not the aftermarket manufacturers or the mechanic who installed all of this equipment. I said that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in that case. The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Anything that would change the net output of the powertrain (such as headers, modified intake tracts, non-stock gear ratios, cylinder porting, etc.) could place the powertrain outside it's programmed fuel map, causing an engine fault condition to be stored. Gee, if this was the old west, I'd feel kind of like I was buying a horse that could only follow the wagon trail where everyone else has already gone. Is trailblazing going to die? I doubt it. A few years of this cynical thinking will prevail, then some automotive company ( Nissan? Chrysler? Hyundai? ) will come out with this little ripper that is supported by a million aftermarket suppliers. Company supported modifications will make it the fastest(and cheapest) darn thing on two wheels and thousands of performance buffs will flock to a new badge. -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 02:32:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA25340; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:23:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25335; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:23:46 -0500 Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tRriT-000BRcC; Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:23 EST Received: from kok-ts2-12.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tRrgE-0009mdC; Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:21 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:21 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: Re: All the EST X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >MTaylorfi@aol.com writes: >> >> Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an >> EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of >> rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock >> electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My >> point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't >> do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to >> be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or >> dyno tests. > >uhm, this ain't the dragrace list, dude. For most of us the throttle >has many more positions than ON and OFF. Top fuelers run at WOT, near >constant load and speed i believe. They can't benefit from spark >advance of any form. My 68 Camaro's 350 on the other hand sees full throttle >at any speed between 1800 RPM and 5500RPM... and theres a significant >difference in MBT timing for 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT on my motor. >If I was just worried about WOT, tho, good ole mechanical advance would >do everything I need. But I spend a lot more time at part throttle on >the street than I do at WOT. And the difference between MBT timing >at 1800RPM idling and 1800RPM WOT is MUCH larger than the difference >between MBT timing at 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT. SO it probably won't >help your quarter mile... but it'll sure help your idle, fuel economy, >streetability, etc. > Well said, Johathan. And here's a quote from my list of famous ones. I'll post the rest if there is interest: "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. Unfortunately this is more of the same disease infecting NASCAR. I guess there are good arguments against adding electronic controls, but when INDY Cars can get ~750 H.P. from ~3.5 liters well. . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 02:36:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA25356; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:31:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25351; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:30:55 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA16209; Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:25:25 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA819398148 Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:35:48 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:35:48 Message-Id: <9511198193.AA819398148@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm currently building a Chev 350 for a HQ Monaro. After a long search I came up with the standard TPI system for the 85-89 Camaro's, not only does this look good, but a 2nd hand system it's a lot cheaper than any aftermarket system, and its also better than a throttle body system. All you need is a computer to run it, and there are lots of those around ranging from AU$800 - AU$2500 depending on what you want. I chose a AU$1400 system that allows for fuel and ignition mapping (then I can always change ignition system) from a remote hand piece, this way its easy to program the system. All up you can do this for about AU$3000, but if you are in the US you are laughing since you don't have to pay import duty and freight on everything. hope I have been of help. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 18/12/95 3:22 PM Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 02:42:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA25381; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:35:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25376; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:35:32 -0500 Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tRrtr-000BRhC; Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:35 EST Received: from kok-ts2-12.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tRrrc-0009mtC; Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:33 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:33 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! > Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to comment? On a lighter note at an SAE confrence on OBDII they were talking like manufacturers will be required to supply the hex scan codes for a particular parameters (TPS, etc.) right in the service manual. It seems there is supposed to be a low cost "minimum function" scan tool that doesn't have them programmed in already. The technician will have to enter the hex bytes by hand and the manual will tell how to interpret the response message. Tedious, but if it's true, a gold mine for you guys who want to make your own scan tools. Anybody seen this in a '96 manual? In the long run this stuff (Class II messages) will all probably become standard and public domain. Except for the securtiy algorithms to unlock the box and reprogram, do device control, etc. We can only hope. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 05:02:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA25718; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 04:59:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA25713; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:59:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.5/8.5) id RAA27761; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:46:06 +1300 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199512190446.RAA27761@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:46:05 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <9512182122.AA19615@chs.mb.ca> from "John Giles" at Dec 18, 95 03:22:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 88 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer ..... Somehow, you can tell. :-) Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 07:12:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26030; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:10:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26025; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:09:57 -0500 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma015652; Tue Dec 19 12:09:41 1995 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma012496; Tue Dec 19 18:09:13 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA18756 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:09:12 +1100 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id SAA01833 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:09:11 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199512190709.SAA01833@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Motorcycle speed density systems To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:09:10 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512080611.RAA03355@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "robert dingli" at Dec 8, 95 05:11:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 406 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally > found a source? Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what I've seen. Can you order a photocopy of the articles from Curcuit cellar, or do you have to get the whole set of 3 issues? (Or, who owns the copyright of the article... hint hint ;-) Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 07:16:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26057; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:15:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26052; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:15:43 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id CAA04707; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:15:42 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id CAA22222; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:15:12 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904 by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA27243; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:14:40 -0500 Received: from ctlp0161.MPG.GMPT.GMEDS.COM ([130.172.65.166]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA024107275; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:14:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:16:59 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: All the EST To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. Part of this argument is predicated on the assumption that the absence of EST in Top Fuel drag racing is because it's not the best thing. As I understand it, EST is specifically disallowed there, so we really don't know if EST is worse or no better for this application than the systems mentioned. My guess is that this is yet another attempt by the sanctioning bodies to "control costs" or "keep things competitive" as we have seen in many (too many?) other series. (I suspect that this viewpoint results from marketing being influenced by technical ignorance or prejudice.) I read an article once (don't remember the source) about the ignition systems used in Top Fuel. One team spent $50,000 just to get reliable spark delivery and timing. The engineer they hired used special materials for the points and rigged a system to flood the system with CO2 during the run, presumably to reduce pitting or perhaps to allow higher voltages. Reliable high speed ignition is tough enough in a normal engine and must be many times tougher in Top Fuel. You probably need enourmous spark energies at those boost levels and insane air/fuel ratios. It's really tough to get such energies out of traditional mechanical systems due to inherent limitations. It seems much easier to get these energies out of modern electronic systems. Maybe you don't need varying spark advance, but it seems to me you need consistent advance. With bouncing points and torsional vibrations in a distributor, this becomes a problem; not insoluble, just tough. EST would solve that problem easily. Plus, I don't think one should so casually ignore the initial 0.5 second when engine speed is changing; maybe you could pick up another 0.05 there by having a flexible and more accurate advance system. That could win a championship. Just another guess, but I'm wondering if the reason RPM (and thus horsepower) isn't higher in Top Fuel engines is in part due to an RPM limitation of the ignition system. Again, something easily solved with EST. Ideal spark advance as well as spark energy in normal engines varies with manifold pressure and fuel/air ratio. Although the combustion process with nitromethane is quite different, I'll bet there are parallels. In a Top Fuel dragster, you have manifold pressure variations as the engine spins up and as you get more ram-air at higher speeds. You also get air/fuel variations due to the acceleration throwing the fuel and air toward the rear cylinders, which also changes over the course of the run. I think the situation is a lot less steady-state than it initially appears. EST would be a nice way to take care of these things. Having some intelligence on board could really help things, I would think. You've only got something like 2,000-2,500 cylinder firings during the run, so every one better count. Just thinking off the top of my head, you could do some nice misfire detection, at least for diagnostic purposes. Maybe you could have an advanced misfire recovery algorithm, like do a flood clear on the next revolution so you can recover sooner. There's no reason a properly controlled system should be spraying streams of nitrous out the pipes, as you see quite frequently. Weather conditions change over the course of a day, and if you could account for some of this automatically and accurately you'd have an advantage. The Holy Grail is, of course, traction control, which was tried (sorry I'm forgetting which team) and was so successful it was banned. So now I understand they achieve largely the same thing by a pneumatically operated progressive clutch that limits delivered torque by a pre-programmed series of clutch plate engagements. Pneumatic or electronic, it's still a computer executing an algorithm, so I don't know why it is allowed and a microcontroller you would find on any new car isn't. If you haven't guessed by now, I have *no* experience with Top Fuel, so please feel free to correct me as necessary. Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 07:53:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26134; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:47:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26129; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:47:03 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id CAA00689; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:47:03 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id CAA21861; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:46:33 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904 by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA10071; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:46:32 -0500 Received: from ctlp0161.MPG.GMPT.GMEDS.COM ([130.172.65.166]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA024449189; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:46:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:20:13 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dan Burk wrote: >I said >that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt >to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said >Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in >that case. > >The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM >modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that >make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Part of the reason is that new government regulations *require* the automakers (all of them) to implement strategies that prevent anyone from changing the code in the ECM/PCM/VCM. Souping up cars is one way that people enjoy these products. It's especially nice because it tends to make the product more visible. These facts are not lost on the automakers (especially since they are populated by a bunch of car nuts frequently working on their own side projects). The problem is that nobody has yet figured out a way to make a car that the customer can modify *and* comply with all the new regulations. If that wasn't an issue, it would probably come down to warranty and liability concerns, which have never before incited the industry to attempt such extreme measures. As it is, nobody really has the resources to put the time into figuring out this problem, especially to address such a small segment of the market. That's where the aftermarket can step in. It's going to be a real challenge for them, both technically and legally. The thought of not being able to toy with my car breaks my heart. Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group * The writing above comprises my personal opinions only and does not reflect an official or unoffical position of my employer. * From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 08:04:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26162; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:58:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26157; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:58:15 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id CAA05266; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:58:15 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id CAA20446; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:57:45 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904 by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA29469; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:57:44 -0500 Received: from ctlp0161.MPG.GMPT.GMEDS.COM ([130.172.65.166]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA024579858; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:57:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:48:50 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Craig Pugsley wrote: >> in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > >> I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally >> found a source? >Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what >I've seen. > >Can you order a photocopy of the articles from Curcuit cellar, or do you >have to get the whole set of 3 issues? (Or, who owns the copyright of >the article... hint hint ;-) You can order back issues from Circuit Cellar. I don't think you can order article reprints, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. Just out of curiousity, is the price of these things really an issue, or is it more the availability? CCI now owns the copyright to the article (sorry...). I'd like to recommend to anyone having difficulty, especially those overseas, that you may want to voice your concerns directly to the Editor-in-Chief, Ken Davidson (Ken.Davidson@circellar.com). Ed Lansinger From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 08:27:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA26239; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:24:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA26234; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 03:24:27 -0500 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma020004; Tue Dec 19 13:23:56 1995 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma018483; Tue Dec 19 19:23:40 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA22313 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:23:39 +1100 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id TAA03730 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:23:38 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199512190823.TAA03730@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:23:37 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ed Lansinger" at Dec 19, 95 10:48:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 502 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > You can order back issues from Circuit Cellar. I don't think you can > order article reprints, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. > > Just out of curiousity, is the price of these things really an issue, > or is it more the availability? Availability mainly.. Also I'm a cheapskate ;-) I just came back from a US trip and had a warm glow when I saw the (last part of the) article seeing the diy_efi and 332 lists printed at the end.. Sure made the world seem a lot smaller. Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 08:42:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA26279; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:39:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA26274; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 03:39:33 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA18340; Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:22:22 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA819417661 Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:01:01 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:01:01 Message-Id: <9511198194.AA819417661@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This is great, common replies to the main system is much easier than answering everyone seperately. First of all, for those who don't know, a HQ Monaro (4 door) is probably the equivalent of a 73' Camaro, in fact I think GMH may have got a lot of design help from GM. Anyway, I haven't fitted it yet, but hope to have it all done by mid Jan 96 (have to wait for my holidays). I chose the Wolf 3D system, basically because it was cheaper than the others like Motec, Haltec, Injec, EMC, etc. etc. etc. They basically all have the same features, fuel mapping, ignition mapping (usually only on the more expensive versions), throttle injector cut off when cranking, accelerator enrichment, barometric pressure compensation, injector current control, air temp compensation, MAP or TPS sensing, cranking fuel rate, rev limiter, cold enrichment, staged injection, turbo facility, post start enrichment, EFI pump shut down. Basically, unlike most others where a lap top is required to program the computer, this system has a remote hand piece with 4 line 16 char LCD and a number of buttons that lets you do all the programming. Multiple programs can be set up so that you can instantly change to them while you drive by selecting a new program from the hand piece. The hand piece can be removed if not required, but it does display a number of useful things while you drive, RPM, injector pulse width, air temp, water temp, mixture indicator, throttle position, manifold vacuum, voltage, etc. I don't think it is any better than the other brands, apart from the analogue systems, except that is is cheaper. All the features are basically the same. I hope this has explained everything. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 19/12/95 10:35 AM I'm currently building a Chev 350 for a HQ Monaro. After a long search I came up with the standard TPI system for the 85-89 Camaro's, not only does this look good, but a 2nd hand system it's a lot cheaper than any aftermarket system, and its also better than a throttle body system. All you need is a computer to run it, and there are lots of those around ranging from AU$800 - AU$2500 depending on what you want. I chose a AU$1400 system that allows for fuel and ignition mapping (then I can always change ignition system) from a remote hand piece, this way its easy to program the system. All up you can do this for about AU$3000, but if you are in the US you are laughing since you don't have to pay import duty and freight on everything. hope I have been of help. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 18/12/95 3:22 PM Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 10:05:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA26601; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:04:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lucy.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA26596; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:04:10 -0500 From: adennison@swin.edu.au Received: from cs6p2.ipswich.gil.com.au by lucy.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA11173; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:03:55 +1100 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:36:28 Cc: adennison@swin.edu.au Message-Id: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In article "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" writes: >>67f687.pdf (binary) >>67f687.ps (ascii) >>67f687.zip (binary) >Andrew, >Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe >you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. I'm away for 3 weeks (with remote mail access) remind me in January. There are email servers for ftp access. Andrew From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 11:47:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA26750; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:44:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA26745; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:44:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199512191144.GAA26745@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA09330; Tue, 19 Dec 95 06:43:57 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: Carb vs. FI To: DIY_EFI (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 6:43:56 "EST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone read the Hot Rod article about Carb vs FI? What were the conclusions to the article? The title said something like the "dyno knows." Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 12:28:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA26833; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:23:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA26828; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:23:05 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id HAA10660; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:23:04 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id HAA28931; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:22:34 -0500 Received: from koiasw15.delcoelect.com (koiasw15.delcoelect.com [144.250.22.90]) by kocrsv04.delcoelect.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA19617 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by koiasw15.delcoelect.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA05934; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:22:32 -0500 From: c1ilep@eng.delcoelect.com (Lawrence E. Piekarski) Message-Id: <199512191222.HAA05934@koiasw15.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:22:32 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "J.W. Harris" at Dec 18, 95 09:33:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >>If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >>three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >>access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >>non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! >> >Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big >curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder >still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES >lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything >about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think >this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to >comment? I have heard that also. I don't think a bad Class II message would cause it to lock up, but there were two different modes that would cause the device to set a code that would disable fuel and could not be cleared by the dealer. On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that requirement was one of the more advanced OBDII requirements. I haven't worked with the stuff in over a year, so maybe it's changed. It seemed there was a lot of waffling on the issue a year ago, so there probably still is. I guess CARB was upset that people just drove around with a bad sensor and the check engine light on. They want to disable fuel under certain conditions to FORCE your to take your car in. In 1984, Big Brother was watching, in 1997 he drives your car. -- (* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) (* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) (* lepiekar@mail.delcoelect.com *) (* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 13:37:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA26987; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:30:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uhavax.hartford.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26982; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:30:31 -0500 Received: by uhavax.hartford.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 33; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:30:19 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:30:18 EDT From: "Nietzsche is dead. -God" To: diy_efi Message-ID: <0099B174.B128E3A0.33@uhavax.hartford.edu> Subject: RE: BKM's box? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hmm... Funny you should ask. I have been corresponding with Dave Steinmeyer for a while now on thier 8096 box. I am working on the Formula SAE racing team here at the University of Hartfoed and this is the first year that we're trying to do an efi. The controller itself is an Intel 8096... a beast of a microcontroller.If you have any questions, e-mail me. I have his # and address, but I don't know if he wants me to put it in cyberspace. It was hard enogh to get the info, though and I would rather save you the time. --Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 13:43:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA27014; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:39:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from minnie.iafrica.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA27007; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:39:01 -0500 Received: from slipper14142.iafrica.com by minnie.iafrica.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #20) id m0tS2Kb-0007QTC; Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:43 GMT+0200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Viv Vendeirinho @ A.S.D. - South Africa" To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:44:03 +0200 Subject: RCPT: EFI332 Project Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 28 Nov 95 8:46 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: EFI332 Project Was read at 15:04, 19 Dec 95. ======================================================== Vivian Rato-Vendeirinho Motorola Line Manager Advanced Semiconductor Devices Johannesburg, SOUTH AFRICA Voice: +27-11-444-2333 Fax: +27-11-444-1706 Email: asdviv@iafrica.com ======================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 17:27:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA27756; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:23:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27751; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:22:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199512191722.MAA27751@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA11313; Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:22:54 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: RE: BKM's box? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:22:49 "EST In-Reply-To: <0099B174.B128E3A0.33@uhavax.hartford.edu>; from "Nietzsche is dead. -God" at Dec 19, 95 8:30 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hmm... Funny you should ask. I have been corresponding with Dave Steinmeyer > for a while now on thier 8096 box. I am working on the Formula SAE racing team > here at the University of Hartfoed and this is the first year that we're trying > to do an efi. > > The controller itself is an Intel 8096... a beast of a microcontroller.If you have any questions, e-mail me. I have his # and address, but I don't > know if he wants me to put it in cyberspace. It was hard enogh to get the > info, though and I would rather save you the time. Mark, I had a hard time finding Nietzsche's email address. :) Yes, I would like to contact Dave S. I may have an interesting application for his box. Please email to me directly when you have a chance. -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 21:44:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29812; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:40:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kla.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29807; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:40:33 -0500 From: steveb@newkla.kla.com Received: from newkla.kla.com by kla.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11979; Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:42:10 PST Received: from sled by newkla.kla.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA11923; Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:39:32 PST Received: by sled (8.6.12/KLA-4.1c) id NAA04343; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:36:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:36:41 -0800 Message-Id: <199512192136.NAA04343@sled> To: diy_efi Subject: Reference information about Knock Sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I would appreciate it if one of you in the know can point me to a good reference work that covers the function of the knock sensor. I am interested in knowing if they are tuned for particular freq- uencies, and such. They appear to be very much like ceramic ele- ment microphones ... is there any signal processing circuitry on the sensor, or is the processing done in the ECU? TIA! Steve Buchholz s_buchho@kla.com San Jose, CA (USA) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 23:06:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00179; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:05:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00166; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:05:11 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA27991 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:05:06 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199512192305.KAA27991@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Reference information about Knock Sensors To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:05:06 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512192136.NAA04343@sled> from "steveb@newkla.kla.com" at Dec 19, 95 01:36:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1736 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve Buchholz asks, > > I would appreciate it if one of you in the know can point me to a > good reference work that covers the function of the knock sensor. > I am interested in knowing if they are tuned for particular freq- > uencies, and such. They appear to be very much like ceramic ele- > ment microphones ... is there any signal processing circuitry on > the sensor, or is the processing done in the ECU? > There are several SAE references on the topic although you may have to go back a few years to find references to articles about products which have been available for many years now. A relatively recent article (SAE 940146) describes various signal processing methods within the ECU and comes to the conclusion that a band pass filter coupled with a time window for sampling is the best choice. Determining a suitable reference or threshold to distinguish between background noise and dangerous knock is the difficult part. You could try contacting Bosch and/or Nippondenso to get technical information on their products. I know that Bosch, at least, make sensors which inherently band pass filter the signal mechanically as well as broad band sensors. In either case, further filtering would be required within the ECU. regards, Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 19 23:29:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00443; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:26:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00438; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:26:25 -0500 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma007846; Wed Dec 20 04:24:41 1995 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma021349; Wed Dec 20 10:23:25 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA28767 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:23:25 +1100 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id KAA10079 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:23:08 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199512192323.KAA10079@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:23:06 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "adennison@swin.edu.au" at Dec 19, 95 07:36:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 710 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > In article "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" writes: > >>67f687.pdf (binary) > >>67f687.ps (ascii) > >>67f687.zip (binary) > > >Andrew, > >Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe > >you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. > > I'm away for 3 weeks (with remote mail access) remind me in January. There are > email servers for ftp access. Those files are on the web page (and the .pdf worked for me too BTW- how do they cram 55 pages of data book into 250k??) Unfortunately I can't find the web page ref just now but a postscript version is at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/component_info/component_info.html Cheers, Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 00:25:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA00624; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:22:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA00619; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:22:39 -0500 Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tSCIn-000BPLC; Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:22 EST Received: from kok-ts2-00.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tSCGa-0009irC; Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:20 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:20 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that Yeah, I forgot about this one if it fails the first checksum on startup, the injectors will be inhibited. Changing one bit will cause it to fail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 01:52:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA00867; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 01:50:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from net.dris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA00862; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:50:12 -0500 Received: from peo49.dris.com (peo49.dris.com [199.120.109.249]) by net.dris.com (8.7.1/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA28349 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:47:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:47:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512200147.TAA28349@net.dris.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.dris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@dris.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > >Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. >I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market >stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. > >I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program >once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple >of grand. > >What are some options? > >Thanks in advance for any help..... > >jgiles > > > > > MR. Giles I will be selling a low cost system soon that is easy to use. The first system will be fuel only, but later I will add an ignition control. And later next year I will have a full sequential injection and ignition system. For info, Email me. David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 02:25:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA00980; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 02:23:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA00975; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:23:10 -0500 Received: from 1432.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip14.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.54]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA13823 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:25:14 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:00:22 PST From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Knock sensing Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Harris Semiconductor makes a wonderful knock sensor processor, HIP9010. I use it in an aircraft engine ignition controller that I build. It is the only way that I have been able to hear throught all the banging and slapping that goes on in one of those lightly built engines under normal conditions. It will allow you to watch a narrow frequency band and compare it to the realtive power in another band. You can switch back and forth between different physical sensors between ignition pulses and even switch bands before and after each spark event to watch different frequencies. The device puts out an analog signal to indicate relative power. You set the gain for each of the comparison channels After using it in the analog mode for a while I figured out that it is better and faster to set the gain and use it as a binary input instead of doing an analog conversion each time. I use it with aftermarker GM style sensors. About any thing would work. A clever person could build a device that would make good use of this part. I have considered a system that would monitor and record transmission and gear noises on heavy equipment. If things begin to change rapidly it could signal for a shut down. You can get a data sheet from their fax back system at 407/742-3937. some one needs to buy a bunch of these so that they do not go the way of the Silicons Systems device. I would like to communicate with any one that has experience with this device. John Carroll 307 674-8469 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 03:37:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA01414; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:34:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01409; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:33:57 -0500 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA16865; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:33:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:33:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199512200333.TAA16865@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >> >>>If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >>>three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >>>access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >>>non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! >>> >>Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big >>curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder >>still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES >>lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything >>about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think >>this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to >>comment? > >I have heard that also. I don't think a bad Class II message would cause it to >lock up, but there were two different modes that would cause the device to >set a code that would disable fuel and could not be cleared by the dealer. >On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that >requirement was one of the more advanced OBDII requirements. I haven't worked >with the stuff in over a year, so maybe it's changed. It seemed there was >a lot of waffling on the issue a year ago, so there probably still is. > >I guess CARB was upset that people just drove around with a bad sensor and the >check engine light on. They want to disable fuel under certain conditions to >FORCE your to take your car in. In 1984, Big Brother was watching, in 1997 >he drives your car. >-- >(* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) >(* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) >(* lepiekar@mail.delcoelect.com *) >(* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) > remember seatbelt starter interlocks ; the gov. finally allowed them to be dissconnected. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 05:11:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01692; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 05:06:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01687; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:06:00 -0500 Received: from 1432.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip3.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.43]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16728 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:08:02 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 21:56:56 PST From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Knock sensing Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I really got an immediate flood of communication about knock sensing. I have a project that MUST be done in the next few days. Between Christmas and the new year I will put together a description of my use the 9010. Get the data sheet and study it. It is necessary to buy a bunch of the things at a time. I have a few but do not want to be without. I will fine out a minimum purchase and cost. Could put together a group buy. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 19:04:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA03669; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:51:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from corona.cdev.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA03664; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:51:35 -0500 X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; Relayed; 20 Dec 1995 12:54:49 -0600 X400-Received: by mta corona.cdev.com in /c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; Relayed; 20 Dec 1995 12:54:49 -0600 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; 0310530D85BF9001-MTAcorona] Content-Identifier: 0310530D85BF9001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Priority: normal Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: RONALD.R.HOYT@cdev.com X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <"0310530D85BF9001*/c=us/admd= /prmd=ceridian/o=cdev/ou=cc-lan/ou=cchsgate/s=HOYT/g=RONALD/i=R/"@MHS> Date: 20 Dec 1995 12:54:49 -0600 From: "Ronald R Hoyt" To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" (Return requested) Subject: RE: Knock sensing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=RE: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu John Would you please confirm the phone number for the Harris fax back on the HIP9010 part. I am getting a disconnected phone with the number given on 19 Dec. Thanks Ron Hoyt From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 22:36:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA04362; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:27:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA04357; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:27:39 -0500 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA16335 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:27:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:27:13 -0500 Message-ID: <951220170426_76628394@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-19 21:15:39 EST, you write: >I will be selling a low cost system soon that is easy to use. The first >system will be fuel only, but later I will add an ignition control. And >later next year I will have a full sequential injection and ignition system. >For info, Email me. > >David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com Mr. Doddek- I might be interested in your fuel only low cost FI system. What is your expected price when it comes available, and how will it compare control/feature-wise to, say, the Electromotive TEC-II (which I am puttting in an other car)? Both cars are 4 cylinders. Thanks, Bonn Macy From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 22:58:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA04422; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:51:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chs.mb.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA04417; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:51:00 -0500 Received: from porky.chs.mb.ca by chs.mb.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18273; Wed, 20 Dec 95 16:52:44 CST Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 16:52:44 CST From: jgiles@chs.mb.ca (John Giles) Message-Id: <9512202252.AA18273@chs.mb.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Getting started on EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu well I'm hooked !!!!!! I've looked over the web site and I'm impressed with what yuz guys are doing with EFI. I have a macroscopic understanding of EFI and would like to understand it in a more detail before I start blowing lots of coin on manifolds, sensors, and electronics so could someone please recommend a good book that I could read to get started. Maybe something like EFI for dummies -) Thanks in advance !!! jgiles From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 20 23:42:46 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA04562; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:34:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04557; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:34:27 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA23812 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:34:16 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199512202334.KAA23812@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Getting started on EFI To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:34:15 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9512202252.AA18273@chs.mb.ca> from "John Giles" at Dec 20, 95 04:52:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1126 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu John Giles asks, > > I have a macroscopic understanding of EFI and would like to understand > it in a more detail before I start blowing lots of coin on manifolds, > sensors, and electronics so could someone please recommend a good book > that I could read to get started. Maybe something like EFI for > dummies -) > Bosch have released a very good book on automotive electronics which covers most of their efi systems from the early K-Jetronic to the later Motronic. I can't remember the exact title, but it is something simple like "Automotive Electronics" and has a red plastic cover. It is available from the SAE (at least locally). Robert Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 21 01:22:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA05098; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:15:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mana.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA05093; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:15:32 -0500 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by mana.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA04293; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:15:26 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:15:26 -0600 From: Doug Rorem Subject: RE: Knock sensing To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <"0310530D85BF9001*/c=us/admd= /prmd=ceridian/o=cdev/ou=cc-lan/ou=cchsgate/s=HOYT/g=RONALD/i=R/"@MHS> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > John > Would you please confirm the phone number for the Harris fax back on the > HIP9010 part. I am getting a disconnected phone with the number given on > 19 Dec. > Thanks > Ron Hoyt Ron, Harris has a web site also. The URL for the HIP9010 datasheets is: http://www.semi.harris.com/datasheets/ip/hip9010/ The phone # that I have for their fax-back system is 407-724-7800. The document # for the HIP9010 is 3601. -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 21 13:45:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA06419; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:36:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA06414; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:36:20 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA22093 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:25:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199512211325.AA22093@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:25:13 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:25:13 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Getting started on EFI In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:34:15 +1100." <199512202334.KAA23812@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:36:16 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Bosch have released a very good book on automotive electronics which > covers most of their efi systems from the early K-Jetronic to the later > Motronic. I can't remember the exact title, but it is something simple > like "Automotive Electronics" and has a red plastic cover. It is > available from the SAE (at least locally). I just bought a copy of this. The title is Automotive Electric/Electronic Systems. I purchased it through SAE for US$39. The blue Automotive Handbook (US$34) is very good too. You can get in touch with SAE at: Society of Automotive Engineers 400 Commonwealth Drive Warrendale, PA 15096-001 USA --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Tsakiris | Internet: tsakiris@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com Powertrain Electronics | PROFS: atsakiri Ford Motor Company | VAX: eee1::tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 01:17:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA08996; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:11:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from tide03.microsoft.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA08991; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 20:11:30 -0500 Received: by tide03.microsoft.com; id RAA06978; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:17:04 -0800 Received: from unknown(157.54.17.73) by tide03.microsoft.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma006930; Thu, 21 Dec 95 17:16:42 -0800 Received: from xnet2 (xnet2.microsoft.com [157.54.17.205]) by imail1.microsoft.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA19610 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:13:46 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from xmtp4 by xnet2 with receive; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:11:02 -0800 X-Received: from RED-02-IMC by xmtp4 with recvsmtp; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:10:57 -0800 Received: by red-02-imc.itg.microsoft.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.10.611) id <01BACFC7.4BE0B890@red-02-imc.itg.microsoft.com>; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:10:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Kent Sullivan To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: General question Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:10:57 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.10.611 Encoding: 16 TEXT X-MsXMTID: xmtp4951222011057RECVSMTP[01.52.00]00000094-12754 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I just joined the list to see what you-all are talking about. I scanned your Web site, and it looks like you're taking "Do It Yourself" very seriously--building systems from scratch. Is there any discussion on this list of aftermarket "boxed" systems? (Putting a system in a car which didn't have one from the factory is sort-of "do it yourself", which is what I'm interested in doing.) I'm particularly interested in anything you have to say about the Haltech systems. Thanks, --Kent From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 02:43:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA09461; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 02:38:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA09456; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:38:00 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA11175; Fri, 22 Dec 95 10:31:50 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA819657840 Fri, 22 Dec 95 10:44:00 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 10:44:00 Message-Id: <9511228196.AA819657840@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: General question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I found Haltech too expensive when I was looking for one, there are a lot of equivalent systems around that are cheaper. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: General question Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 22/12/95 10:40 AM Hi, I just joined the list to see what you-all are talking about. I scanned your Web site, and it looks like you're taking "Do It Yourself" very seriously--building systems from scratch. Is there any discussion on this list of aftermarket "boxed" systems? (Putting a system in a car which didn't have one from the factory is sort-of "do it yourself", which is what I'm interested in doing.) I'm particularly interested in anything you have to say about the Haltech systems. Thanks, --Kent From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 03:06:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA09542; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:03:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from qsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09537; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:03:15 -0500 Received: from qsirmt05.qsi.com by qsi.com (4.1/3.2.012693-Quality Systems Incorporated); id AA26537 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 21 Dec 95 22:03:57 EST Received: by qsirmt05.qsi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BACFF0.2F68ADC0@qsirmt05.qsi.com>; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:03:40 -0600 Message-Id: <01BACFF0.2F68ADC0@qsirmt05.qsi.com> From: Jim Pearl To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: General question Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:56:23 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I too must echo this sentiment! I am the current owner of a DFI box on a = twin turbo 5.0 Mustang and am looking for others with experience with = this box. A book I have to recommend for all (including Haltech) is the = book "Fuel Injection" put out by MotorBook International. it's actually = got up to date info! Wow! P.S. what Haltech? They don't control fuel do they? Do the log like the = DFI? ---------- >From: Kent Sullivan[SMTP:kentsu@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 1995 7:10 PM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: General question Hi, I just joined the list to see what you-all are talking about. I scanned = your Web site, and it looks like you're taking "Do It Yourself" very=20 seriously--building systems from scratch. Is there any discussion on this list of aftermarket "boxed" systems?=20 (Putting a system in a car which didn't have one from the factory is=20 sort-of "do it yourself", which is what I'm interested in doing.) I'm=20 particularly interested in anything you have to say about the Haltech=20 systems. Thanks, --Kent From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 04:22:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA09708; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 04:19:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA09703; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:19:05 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id XAA16941; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:19:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199512220419.XAA16941@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:14:07 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: General question X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm also new to the list and have almost the same questions for the others on the site. I have attempted to install a Bosch LU Jetronic system on a MGB ('79) and found that while it would run OK when warm, I never could get it to cold idle well. I finally have given up on this and am going to install the Electromotive TEC II system. I talked to Haltec and I felt that they were not very, how should I say it, "friendly"..A real turn off over the phone..They may have a great system, but don't know how to deal with the public. Electromotive was helpful and I really like the direct fire ignition feature included in the TEC II for about the same cost as the Haltec F8. >Hi, > >I just joined the list to see what you-all are talking about. I scanned >your Web site, and it looks like you're taking "Do It Yourself" very >seriously--building systems from scratch. > >Is there any discussion on this list of aftermarket "boxed" systems? > (Putting a system in a car which didn't have one from the factory is >sort-of "do it yourself", which is what I'm interested in doing.) I'm >particularly interested in anything you have to say about the Haltech >systems. > >Thanks, > >--Kent > > > Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 05:11:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA09809; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 05:08:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from net.dris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA09804; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:08:28 -0500 Received: from peo42.dris.com (peo42.dris.com [199.120.109.242]) by net.dris.com (8.7.1/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA00767 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:06:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:06:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512220506.XAA00767@net.dris.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.dris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@dris.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Bonn Macy wrote: I might be interested in your fuel only low cost FI system. What is your >expected price when it comes available, and how will it compare >control/feature-wise to, say, the Electromotive TEC-II (which I am puttting >in an other car)? Both cars are 4 cylinders. > >Thanks, > >Bonn Macy Bonn: to keep traffic down on the mailing list please send me your personal E-mail address. I'll then send you the info. David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 08:08:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA10237; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:04:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA10232; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:04:13 -0500 From: Utgarhoth@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA07813 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:04:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:04:13 -0500 Message-ID: <951222030412_77446098@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Greetings! Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My name is Andrew Broadhurst, and I am an engineer who enjoys speculating about and building high-output fuel injected V8 engines. My particular weakness is for Mopar engines; currently I am building a supercharged 273 using a modified single-plane manifold with port injectors and a Haltech F9R controller. My previous project was a '69 Dodge Dart with a 383 and Holly Projection throttle-body injection, which has now alas moved on to another owner. I am currently in the planning stages of my next machine, a '71 Dodge Demon 340. I have been considering either designing a microcontroller-implemented control system myself or using a total engine management system, such as the Electromotive injection/ignition control system. Does anyone have any experience with the Electromotive system? I am using one of their ignition systems on the 273, but only just found out they also do fuel systems. I am also interested, of course, in any other similar controllers that may be commercially available. I am very glad to have run across a group of people who are dedicated to the complexities of electronic engine management and I hope that I can contribute to this mail list in a positve way. I look forward to reading future posts! -- R. Andrew Broadhurst Utgarhoth@AOL.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 13:18:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA10647; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:10:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10642; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:10:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199512221310.IAA10642@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA17518; Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:10:46 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: Carb vs Fuel Injection To: DIY_EFI (diy_efi) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 8:10:45 "EST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ok, it looks like no one reads Hot Rod. In a previous post, I asked if anyone has read the issue of Hot Rod that had an article on Carburetion vs Fuel Injection. Since I have not received a reply, I must assume that either someone is too embarrassed to admit that they read Hot Rod or that no one reads it. I tried to find it down at the University, but they stopped their subscription in 1991 :(. The title is Carburetion vs. Fuel Injection in the October 1, 1994 issue of Hot Rod. The summary of the article is "the dyno doesn't lie." You can reply to me directly if you would prefer. I will keep your comments in confidence. Thank you all in advance. Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 13:25:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA10679; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:21:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10674; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:21:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199512221321.IAA10674@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2761; Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:21:54 EST Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin BCLEMEN@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8358; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:21:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:11:16 EST From: BCLEMEN@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU Subject: Haltech To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have been running an old Haltech F3 unit (fuel only) on a street driven, automatic, small block Camaro with a tunnel ram style intake for a couple of years now and it has been, in general, a good experience. Contacting reps for the company has been difficult at times but I saw they had a booth at the trade show in Columbus a couple of weeks ago so I guess they are still available. BYRON CLEMENS BITNET: BCLEMEN@WAYNEST1.BITNET HUMAN RESOURCES APP SPEC I INTERNET: BCLEMEN@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU 100 ANTOINETTE, ASB #1, RM 156.1 PHONE: (313) 577-2059 Detroit, MI 48202 FAX: (313) 577-8767 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 14:50:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA10900; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 14:40:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gater3.sematech.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA10895; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:40:51 -0500 Received: from GATEV4.SEMATECH.ORG by gater3.sematech.org (8.6.12/F-1.9) with ESMTP id IAA14397; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:40:49 -0600 Received: from MR.SEMATECH.Org by SEMATECH.Org (PMDF V5.0-5 #5463) id <01HZ3ODSJMA890MVFI@SEMATECH.Org> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:40:31 -0600 (CST) Received: with PMDF-MR; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:37:13 -0600 (CST) MR-Received: by mta GATEV3; Relayed; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:40:16 -0600 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:30:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759 Subject: RE carb vs. FI To: diy_efi Message-id: <01HZ3OEC0HRM90MVFI@MR.SEMATECH.Org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:34:00 -0600 (CST) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;31738022215991/1901671@VAXEN] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I think I may have read that article. Heck, I might even have it in my archive (read box in garage). If I remember right Hot Rod made some claim along the line of "FI is no better than a finely tuned carb". Maybe on a dyno but I really doubt it in the real world. Besides who wants to spend each weekend tuning a carb. How does a carb compensate for a cold front? Thunderstruck... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 15:27:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA11041; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:17:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA11036; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:17:13 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA08248 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:17:12 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: <951222101711_21518280@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Carb vs Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey if you find out the info, please send me it. I gratuated from college in May and since renewed my Car Craft and PHR magazine subscription. I feel HOT ROD is pro-Chevy (at least 5 years ago). If I'm wrong please tell me. You can order older issues direct from the magizine publishers. See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 15:30:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA11060; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:23:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA11055; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:22:58 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA14889 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:22:56 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA09452; Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:22:55 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA19165; Fri, 22 Dec 95 09:22:54 -0600 Received: by roadster.autotest (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23312; Fri, 22 Dec 95 09:17:32 CST Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 09:17:32 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9512221517.AA23312@roadster.autotest> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: General question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Orin, On a MGB witha 5 port head, biggest problem with fuel injection is timing the injection cycle. Since the intake ports a siamesed the injector needs to be on ONLY during the time when the intake valve is opened... the sysem would have to be a sequential mode, preferably timed to the closing of the intake valve. To have the injector big enough for WOT throttle may result in a poor idle. David Vizard went to great lenghts to get a Weber to deliver proper flow in his book on "How to modify your Mini". Book is long since OOP (out of Print), but highly recommended reading. Hmm... Peter Wales has been quiet, but hopefully can add some thoughts. (Most of the list is V8 people, who a 5 port head seems a little "different" ;-) Cheers, Tom Walter '67 Datsun 2000 '68 Datsun 2000 '71 & '72 Datsun 510's [hate this line edit mode... not on his Workstation] From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 16:42:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA11207; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:35:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11202; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:35:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199512221635.LAA11202@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA18026; Fri, 22 Dec 95 11:35:18 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: Re: RE carb vs. FI To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 11:35:18 "EST In-Reply-To: <01HZ3OEC0HRM90MVFI@MR.SEMATECH.Org>; from "Steve Knickerbocker 512-356-3000 X6759" at Dec 22, 95 8:30 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I think I may have read that article. Heck, I might even have it > in my archive (read box in garage). If I remember right Hot Rod > made some claim along the line of "FI is no better than a finely > tuned carb". Maybe on a dyno but I really doubt it in the real > world. Besides who wants to spend each weekend tuning a carb. How > does a carb compensate for a cold front? > > Thunderstruck... > > Steve, Ok. Sounds like an article that I don't need to find. I guess their point is that it doesn't matter as long as the air to fuel is right. Thank you for digging into you memory banks. :) Yours, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Dec 22 21:13:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA12212; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:06:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA12207; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:06:20 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm6-07.magicnet.net [206.104.207.168]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA19858 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:06:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199512222106.QAA19858@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 17:03:55 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: MGB Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm looking and listening. I'm not awfully familiar with the MGB head. Is 5 port = 2 siamesed inlets and 1 siamesed exhaust with 2 independant exhausts? Are we on twin carbs here? if so, then replace the carbs with injectors and use two injectors only like the Mitsubishi Starion system. In fact that may be a good system to adapt as it uses a Kharman (sp) vortex air meter off boost and a seperate ignition system. Just stick with the air meter and modify the bypass tubes to adjust the mixture close and then there is a mixture adjuster to fine tune it. Leave the electronics alone. If you want to make your own, then all you need to do is to fit cpu controlled mono to the injectors and cycle them. the injectors need to be sized to supply enough fuel for 2 cylinders at full power. The CPU would only provide environmental correction sucjh as battery voltage, water temperature etc and the mono would give fixed pulses when everything was "normal" The pulse rate would increase as the air flow increased. Then you could tune the CPU as other things needed doing.eg new cam. Just some ideas, try them on for size. If they don't fit, give me a hard time and I'll come up with more. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 00:07:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA12580; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 00:00:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from qsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12575; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:00:02 -0500 Received: from qsirmt10.qsi.com by qsi.com (4.1/3.2.012693-Quality Systems Incorporated); id AA02252 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 22 Dec 95 19:00:44 EST Received: by qsirmt10.qsi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD09F.BF597B80@qsirmt10.qsi.com>; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:00:23 -0600 Message-Id: <01BAD09F.BF597B80@qsirmt10.qsi.com> From: Jim Pearl To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: General question Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:00:22 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Be careful with the Electromtive system! I looked at installing it = before I went with my DFI. The prices they quote usually don't include = wiring or software. The really expensive part is the software - I can't = believe the prices they charge. in order to do decent tuning you will = need to have the datalogging and if I were you I'd go whole hog and get = the Nitrous etc. stuff at the initial purchase. They are local to me and = I'm told they they're pretty good people - just make sure you're talking = about a whole package when you talk prices - the wiring isn't mentioned = (that I recall) in the literature and the software is rude unless you = intend to program multiple vehicles... P.S. I wish that DFI would do some of the innovative things Electromtive = has done. Most of the really neat stuff they do is mostly software stuff = (self programming type stuff etc.). Why can't DFI do some of this? ---------- >From: Orin B. Harding[SMTP:orin@nr.infi.net] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 1995 10:14 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: General question I'm also new to the list and have almost the same questions for the = others on the site. I have attempted to install a Bosch LU Jetronic system on a MGB ('79) = and found that while it would run OK when warm, I never could get it to = cold idle well. I finally have given up on this and am going to install = the Electromotive TEC II system. I talked to Haltec and I felt that they were not very, how should I say = it, "friendly"..A real turn off over the phone..They may have a great = system, but don't know how to deal with the public. Electromotive was = helpful and I really like the direct fire ignition feature included in = the TEC II for about the same cost as the Haltec F8. >Hi, > =20 >I just joined the list to see what you-all are talking about. I = scanned=20 >your Web site, and it looks like you're taking "Do It Yourself" very=20 >seriously--building systems from scratch. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 00:09:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA12603; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 00:05:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12598; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:05:52 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id TAA15532; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:05:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199512230005.TAA15532@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:00:53 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: MGB X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I'm looking and listening. > >I'm not awfully familiar with the MGB head. Is 5 port = 2 siamesed inlets >and 1 siamesed exhaust with 2 independant exhausts? Yes, that's the arrangement; Intakes 1&2 siamesed and 3&4 siamesed..Exhaust #1 and #4 independent and #2&3 siamesed. > >Are we on twin carbs here? No this is a '79 which had one Zenith 175CD carb. I replaced the carb with the Ford throttle body, having made a base flange adaptor. The MGB intake/exhaust manifold was retained. The throttle body has one large injector and the one I used was for a 1.9L engine. I tried the 2.3L injector but it was much too big. > >if so, then replace the carbs with injectors and use two injectors only like >the Mitsubishi Starion system. What Mits. cars is/was this system used on??? The whole object here is to come up with an affordable EFI system for the MGB..The Electromotive system is in no way "affordable".. In fact that may be a good system to adapt as >it uses a Kharman (sp) vortex air meter off boost and a seperate ignition >system. Just stick with the air meter and modify the bypass tubes to adjust >the mixture close and then there is a mixture adjuster to fine tune it. >Leave the electronics alone. > > >If you want to make your own, then all you need to do is to fit cpu >controlled mono to the injectors and cycle them. the injectors need to be >sized to supply enough fuel for 2 cylinders at full power. The CPU would >only provide environmental correction sucjh as battery voltage, water >temperature etc and the mono would give fixed pulses when everything was >"normal" The pulse rate would increase as the air flow increased. Then you >could tune the CPU as other things needed doing.eg new cam. > >Just some ideas, try them on for size. If they don't fit, give me a hard >time and I'll come up with more. No, I will not be giving you a hard time!!!! I want to learn, so don't go away!! > > Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 01:56:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA12903; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 01:52:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA12898; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 20:52:45 -0500 Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tTJ8e-000BKdC; Fri, 22 Dec 95 20:52 EST Received: from kok-ts1-18.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tTJ6P-0009inC; Fri, 22 Dec 95 20:50 EST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 20:50 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: RE carb vs. FI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu If I remember correctly, the article came to the conclusion that fuel injection produced a broader torque curve with less peak horsepower, the carb produced a higher peak H.P. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@eng.delcoelect.com jwharris@holli.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 02:33:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA13002; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:30:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA12997; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:30:11 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id VAA29719; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:30:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199512230230.VAA29719@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:25:12 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: RE: General question X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jim, You're right about the Electromotive priceing policy...Hardware OK..Software TOOOOOO expensive for what you get...I also looked into the DFI/Accel/Mr. Gasket system and was shocked at how little information they send with their system. No wiring diagrams, pin-outs, nothing!!! The guy I talked to, at Accel, said I would have to make my own by tracing the wiring harness that came with the unit... Other than that, how do you like your system?? Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 04:59:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA13200; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 04:55:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13195; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 23:55:08 -0500 Received: from port41.fishnet.net (port41.fishnet.net [205.216.133.241]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12534 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:55:34 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:55:34 GMT Message-Id: <199512222155.VAA12534@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: fcmefi@fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Subject: RE: General question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Jim, > >You're right about the Electromotive priceing policy...Hardware OK..Software TOOOOOO expensive for what you get...I also looked into the DFI/Accel/Mr. Gasket system and was shocked at how little information they send with their system. No wiring diagrams, pin-outs, nothing!!! The guy I talked to, at Accel, said I would have to make my own by tracing the wiring harness that came with the unit... > >Other than that, how do you like your system?? >Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC >('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) > Orin: With the MG I would recomend going with a sequential system, pref one with variable inj timing to help with fuel distribution. I wouldn't go with the Electomotive sequential as I don't think it is properly integrated into their standard system. ie you must use high impedence injectors. from what I remember the DFI sequential box is $2k or so, but no variable inj timing. I just got my Elan running on an Autronic SMC system. It's a very powerfull and well thought out system and costs about the same as a sequential TEC. Installation is a bit more involved though as there are 2 eng pos sensors, coil(S) and coil driver(S) to install. I used 2 Eclypse coils but it will drive 1-4 coil drivers. Another tool that might be really usefull on the "B" is the ability to vary inj flow from cyl to cyl varying amounts at different loads and rpm. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 07:08:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA13487; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 07:04:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from qsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA13482; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:04:13 -0500 Received: from qsirmt06.qsi.com by qsi.com (4.1/3.2.012693-Quality Systems Incorporated); id AA03250 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 23 Dec 95 02:04:55 EST Received: by qsirmt06.qsi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD0DB.0110BF80@qsirmt06.qsi.com>; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:04:34 -0600 Message-Id: <01BAD0DB.0110BF80@qsirmt06.qsi.com> From: Jim Pearl To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: RE carb vs. FI Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:04:32 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Gee I guess that's what happens when you test a carb manifold against an = EFI manifold like say a TPI. I don't suppose they took that carburetor = manifold, drilled it for injectors, slapped an air door on it, and ran = the same tests with a tuned EFI system did they? I haven't seen the = article but I've heard some of the garbage from friends - "Put a carb on = it - it'll go faster". Many people don't realize that the torque curve = etc. isn't a function of how the fuel is delivered so much as it is the = manifold's tuning. I (IMHO) don't think the "cooling effect" of fuel = bouncing around a manifold has as much of an effect as having the fuel = in the right place at the right time in a good suspension. I'll step off my soapbox now (grin). I've seen a couple of these type = tests before in the Ford mags. irks me to no end. Jim '88 Ford Mustang Twin turbo 302 (DDMI\Spearco) - DFI ---------- >From: J.W. Harris[SMTP:jwharris@holli.com] Sent: Friday, December 22, 1995 7:50 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: RE carb vs. FI If I remember correctly, the article came to the conclusion that fuel=20 injection produced a broader torque curve with less peak horsepower, the carb produced a higher peak H.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@eng.delcoelect.com jwharris@holli.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 07:32:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA13537; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 07:28:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from qsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA13532; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:28:54 -0500 Received: from qsirmt06.qsi.com by qsi.com (4.1/3.2.012693-Quality Systems Incorporated); id AA03329 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 23 Dec 95 02:29:36 EST Received: by qsirmt06.qsi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD0DE.73FA2380@qsirmt06.qsi.com>; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:29:15 -0600 Message-Id: <01BAD0DE.73FA2380@qsirmt06.qsi.com> From: Jim Pearl To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: General question Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 02:29:14 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Tracing the harness? They will give you the pinouts for their computer - = I know I have a set (although I think it may be off a bit - mine's not = "standard"). I think what he may be trying to tell you is that he = doesn't have a standard plug in unit for your cars harness. The best way = around that is to run your own - I can say that 'cause I didn't have to = (smile). Others here can probably help you better with wiring than I = can. If the car you have started out carburated than I think (opinion = here) that the hardest part will be setting up the pickup from the = ignition. Keep in mind that the standard DFI is batch fire BTW and that = DFI isn't doing any development on it that I can find. As for liking it. Well I like it but I'm envious of the new system they = came out with for my car - a piggy back system (aargh!). With that = system you don't have to teach it to walk, crawl, jog, or get good gas = mileage. right now I'm tracking a mysterious O2 grounding problem (yeah = - I've not even gotten under the car yet!). I also think the knock = sensor is too sensitive and would like to find out if the knock sensor = displays for the Buick GNs would work with my DFI's knock sensor to tell = me when that puppy sensed knock. I'd also like the ability to damp it = electronically. Some of the explanations for some of the idle screens = also aren't real clear. The person who wrote the software could use a = course in software design and it would be nice if I could track more = than 6 functions at a time with the datalogger. I'd also like it to log = more than once a second when doing extended logging. The book tries to = explain alot about the various screens - VERY little on how to tune the = system to work best - as in zero certain tables, get the fuel map right, = then tune the others. I guess you're supposed to goto one of their = dealers for that right? Duttweiler's fuel map that he thought would "get = me in the ballpark" had to be leaned over 50% (I'm not knocking him, I = just had a little trouble is all) and I killed many bugs driving to a = friend's house to get his laptop. Fooling with his off WOT timing curve = got me an extra 5MPG - up from 10 to 15 (still poor!). I could go on but you get the idea. The system works, the software could = be better, and I'm still learning. For the price you can't beat it = (IMHO) - mine was about $800 and plugged into my harness. I've read many = books on EFI (I posted about one earlier - it's very good) and = researched many options. I still get Electromotive's catalog every year = and think they're software sounds like nirvana - mind you I've not = programmed a car with it yet. DFI could do much of what they are doing = with their software but I guess they're mostly car guys and not software = guys.=20 When I look at friend's that are fueling their Vortechs with silly FMU's = and boost retards I just shake my head. I even know one guy who just = dropped a bigger than 460 big block in a car with a Vortech R-trim (ha - = it only makes 3lbs with his current pulleys) and is using the stock = EEC-IV computer (for a 302) with FMU and boost retard. Now tell me his = fuel and ignition curve is going to be anywhere close when he finally = hits 12lbs of boost? When compared to that sort of Mickey Mouse kind of = stuff I thank my DFI for at least letting me know what's going on and = retarding my timing when I'm too stupid to get out of it under = detonation. P.S. There is supposed to be some software for the DFI that allows you = to monitor much more than just 6 functions - but it won't let you = monitor O2 voltage. I'd love to find out where I can get it. Duttweiler = mentioned it to me.. P.P.S. - Sorry guys - I was on a roll and it got a little long! Would it = be of benefit if I posted some tech tips on what I've learned with my = DFI? I was actually hoping someone could tell ME this sort of stuff = (grin). ---------- >From: Orin B. Harding[SMTP:orin@nr.infi.net] Sent: Friday, December 22, 1995 8:25 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: General question Jim, You're right about the Electromotive priceing policy...Hardware = OK..Software TOOOOOO expensive for what you get...I also looked into the = DFI/Accel/Mr. Gasket system and was shocked at how little information = they send with their system. No wiring diagrams, pin-outs, nothing!!! = The guy I talked to, at Accel, said I would have to make my own by = tracing the wiring harness that came with the unit... Other than that, how do you like your system?? Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 14:51:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA14076; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:46:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14071; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:46:05 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm5-29.magicnet.net [204.96.116.179]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA12639 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:45:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199512231445.JAA12639@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:43:42 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: MGB Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I need to know what level of electronics design and assembly you are at. Don't be modest, give it to me straight and it will help me give you the right ideas. The Starion air mass meter was fitted to every Starion and Conquest ever made anywhere in the world from 83 to whenever they stopped. I believe a lot of other Mitsubish turbo cars were fitted with it as well, all from the same era. In a junk yard you need to remove the whole airbox and disconnect it from the loom. I believe the air box is fixed with 2 bolts through the fender wall. If you must stay with one injector, it needs to be sized pretty accurately. How much power do you expect from the engine - 125HP? I think someone on the list will be able to calculate an injector size for us. Now, the system I am proposing is radically different in operation from the normal EFI. Normal EFI injects once per firing stroke if sequential, and twice if batch fired, and the injection pulse width varies from 2 to 20 mS. This system will inject faster as the air speed increases and the pulse width wil be constant. It will be adjustable, but as your basic mixture control. The air mass meter will give out a train of pulses which increases in speed as more air is drawn though it. In theory each certain amount of air requires a certain amount of fuel, so you count the number of pulses and give a squirt from the injector. Then it doesn't matter what the engine is doing, if it is using air, it is getting the mixture in the correct proportions. This will run the car fine. The fine tuning ie cold starts, battery voltage compensation etc, need to be done to make the vehicle an everyday practical proposition, and exactly how you do this will depend on you electronic skills. However, you should be able to get the whole system working nicely for $50 plus the air meter ($100 or less?) Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 17:27:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA14286; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:23:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA14281; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:23:55 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id MAA25348; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:23:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199512231723.MAA25348@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:18:55 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: MGB X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I need to know what level of electronics design and assembly you are at. >Don't be modest, give it to me straight and it will help me give you the >right ideas. > Well, OK I'll not be modest...I worked as a field service rep, in the industrial/HVAC controls industry for years and am now in sales. Have most of the basic stuff: Logic probe, scope, DVM, etc. and access to storage scope, etc. The "electronics" portion of such a project would present no problem. I also have a lathe, milling machine, drill press, etc. so making mechanical adaptor parts will not be a problem. (I did install the Bosch LU Jetronic, making the wiring harness, adaptors, etc.) > >The Starion air mass meter was fitted to every Starion and Conquest ever >made anywhere in the world from 83 to whenever they stopped. I believe a lot >of other Mitsubish turbo cars were fitted with it as well, all from the same >era. In a junk yard you need to remove the whole airbox and disconnect it >from the loom. I believe the air box is fixed with 2 bolts through the >fender wall. > >If you must stay with one injector, it needs to be sized pretty accurately. >How much power do you expect from the engine - 125HP? I have the software, from MSD, and 52#/hr. is about right. I expect to produce between 110 and 120 HP > >I think someone on the list will be able to calculate an injector size for us. > >Now, the system I am proposing is radically different in operation from the >normal EFI. Normal EFI injects once per firing stroke if sequential, and >twice if batch fired, and the injection pulse width varies from 2 to 20 mS. >This system will inject faster as the air speed increases and the pulse >width wil be constant. It will be adjustable, but as your basic mixture control. At 6,000 RPM this comes to 5 MS if fired once/cycle... > >The air mass meter will give out a train of pulses which increases in speed >as more air is drawn though it. In theory each certain amount of air >requires a certain amount of fuel, so you count the number of pulses and >give a squirt from the injector. Then it doesn't matter what the engine is >doing, if it is using air, it is getting the mixture in the correct >proportions. This will run the car fine. > >The fine tuning ie cold starts, battery voltage compensation etc, need to be >done to make the vehicle an everyday practical proposition, and exactly how >you do this will depend on you electronic skills. Is there enough info. on the system to enable me to figure out what to change to adapt it to my car??? However, you should be >able to get the whole system working nicely for $50 plus the air meter ($100 >or less?) > >Peter Wales >President Superchips Inc >Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" > > >All and all sounds like something to look into.....Recommended reading???...I'll stop by the local PEP Boys and see what the Haynes manual on these cars has to offer. They usually have good wiring diagrams, etc..... Looking forward to your reply, and If I don't talk to you in the next day or so, MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and yours.. Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 20:35:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA14603; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 20:32:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA14598; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:32:36 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm1-26.magicnet.net [204.96.116.76]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA29609 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:32:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199512232032.PAA29609@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:30:16 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: MGB Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Well, OK I'll not be modest... Good, at least this should be fairly simple to start with and get more complex as you choose. The object is to create an analogue injection system, and then develop a computer control system. The system I am proposing will fit any car, with any number of cylinders and any number of injectors. It will give the same amount of HP as any other system, and the driveability will depend upon exactly how much work you want to do on the microprocessor end. I have used this system to generate over 300Hp on a Turbo Starion Race car. However, lets start at the simple part to get the engine running. First, you need to acquire the air mass meter. It has 4 wires coming from it, Gnd, +12v, output and a diode for air temperature compensation. Ignore the diode for now. The output needs a pullup resistor to supply and this can be 4k7. Now we have a square wave which increases in frequency with the air flow. You need to feed the square wave into a Cmos monostable such as a 555 (It must be Cmos). The potentiometer on it needs to be able to adjust the pulse from 2 to 5 mS and this will be the mixture control. The voltage control will come from our CPU later so just decouple it for now. The output needs to go into a Darlington driver and this must be rated high enough in voltage to withstand the back EMF generated by the injector. (TIP 121) The injector may need a resistor in series with it if it is low impedance. If it is, grab the ones from the Starion, they are about 4-5 R. Make it run and see what happens. If it is too rich, you may need to put a divider after the air mass meter and before the monostable. On the race car I ended up with a divide by 12 and 2 1000cc/min injectors (100lb/hr) If any one else is proposing to try this system and they want to use multiple injectors, use one 555 for each injector and let them all run at once. You will need a divider and if you are clever, you could make a sequencer so that each injector fires at a different time from any other. >At 6,000 RPM this comes to 5 MS if fired once/cycle... 6000 RPM is 10mS every other cycle is 20mS >Is there enough info. on the system to enable me to figure out what to change to adapt it to my car??? > You need to change nothing on it because it is simple. The changeable part, you are going to build. With the tools you have you can test everything on the bench before fitting it to the car. >>All and all sounds like something to look into.....Recommended reading???...I'll stop by the local PEP Boys and see what the Haynes manual on these cars has to offer. They usually have good wiring diagrams, etc..... I hope you can find something. I have the workshop manual in England and can get it sent over if I need it. Have a good Christmas Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Dec 23 23:09:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA14803; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:06:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA14798; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 18:06:03 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id PAA03580 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:55:30 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sat, 23 Dec 95 16:03 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sat, 23 Dec 95 16:00:15 EDT Message-Id: <9511232300.AA16946@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: O2 sensors To: diy_efi (Darrell Norquay) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 16:00:13 MDT From: dn X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Yo: I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I see from engine operation. The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). I'm wondering if it could be one of two problems: 1. the O2 sensor is not reaching full operating temperature because it is in the header collector which is some distance from the exhaust port... With regards to point 1, what is the advantage of the newer heated oxygen sensors used on some systems? Is the heating circuit strictly to improve response time on startup and allow the EFI to run closed loop sooner, or is it something different altogether? Would using heated O2 sensors correct this condition if this is the problem? 2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean because of the different stoich point for propane... With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. regards dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 24 03:56:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA15121; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 03:40:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA15116; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:43 -0500 From: BradyEng@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA09064 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:41 -0500 Message-ID: <951223224040_78251845@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: O2 sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-23 18:35:27 EST, you write: >I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors >in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED >bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The >readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I >see from engine operation. > >The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle >openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of >power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was >actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons >long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor >output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point >the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). > >2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 >sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean >because of the different stoich point for propane... > >With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to >correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with >alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a >correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. I would like to second this question on O2 sensors. It appears to me that the garden variety used in production autos are basically go-nogo gauges for rich-lean. However, meters with O2 sensors are sold which are reported to be useful tuning aids and accurate to ~0.5 A/F. Does anyone have comments on prices, sources, and performance of the sensors used in the aftermarket systems? To answer a question in this query directly Bob Behn wrote an article in Turbo Bike Volume IV Number I on air fuel ratio meters that included data for alchohol and propane. Turbo Bike is available from Joe Haile Enterprises, PO Box 8000725, Valencia, CA 91380-0725, Tel 805-255-3426. Bob Behn sells an A/F meter @ RB Racing 1625 W. 134th St., Gardena, CA 90249, Tel 310-515-5720. Meters are also available from K&N @ 714-684-9762. I've seen the K&N in operation on a street KZ1000 (4 cyl air cooled 2 valve motorcycle) with a header. It took a while to warm up, but sure speeded up the jetting process. The short version is that stoichiometric is stoichiometric on the gage or O2 sensor, although the actual A/F ratio changes with fuel . Rich and Lean Best Torque are between about 86% and 92% of stoichiometric. The problem is that O2 concentration just doesn't change much below stoichiometric. CO becomes a much better indicator, but I havn't heard of real time sensors for this. I'm sure this topic has been covered before in this forum, but I would very much appreciate it if it was discussed again. Thanks SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 24 06:50:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA15362; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 06:35:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA15357; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 01:35:27 -0500 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (gt0035b@acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA05225 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 01:35:26 -0500 From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer) Received: (gt0035b@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA05115 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 01:35:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199512240635.BAA05115@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: TiO2 and leaded fuel. To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 01:35:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512061127.GAA19696@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "Derrick Early" at Dec 6, 95 06:27:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 836 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Derrick Early wrote > > Hello efi'ers, > > I was digging through the archives and discovered a reference to TiO2 sensors > for lambda control. Do these things really work with leaded gas? Does > any one know of a vendor? I don't know about TiO2s but the ZrO2s that Bosche sells are rated for a certaiin life at a certain lead content. The numbers were in the info I put on the web a litle while ago. Unfortunatly that page has gone down and you'll have to get the info from Bosche or someone else that got it off me. Sorry Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | 55 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | 11 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Dec 24 09:07:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA15546; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 08:55:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA15541; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 03:55:31 -0500 Received: from cis1-p4.everett.net (cis1-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.100]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA02582 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:57:53 -0800 Received: by cis1-p4.everett.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD19A.907BA120@cis1-p4.everett.net>; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:55:48 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAD19A.907BA120@cis1-p4.everett.net> From: Johnny To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: O2 sensors Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:53:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The subject of calibrating output of sensors to fool the stock computer = got beat to death about a month ago on the list. It is possible to not have enough temp and that would account for the = readings you are getting, but I think that your readings are probably = due to the propane. Remember, the sensor is reporting O2, not anything = else. It is calibrated to output a given voltage based on a range of O2 = content that coincides with combustion properties for gasoline. You may = just be off the scale when measuring O2 from combustion of propane. I = wish I could help more on this, but I never got to the O2 sensor stage = when I was experimenting with propane injection previous. You may want = to try sticking the sensor in one of the primary tubes right up on that = first bend where it gets hotter than hell just to see if you get the = same readings... if you do then can probably assume that we are going to = have to figure out how to compenstate for the false output. As far as = confirming if the engine is indeed running that lean you can rev it up = and hold it there, then just put your hand near the air horn of the carb = and see if it speeds up. You could also try a heated sensor to see what = you get. Meanwhile I will try to find something that gives a comparison = on what the total exhaust contents are between gas and propane... might = just be that propane puts of way less or more O2 when at stoich. -j- ---------- From: dn[SMTP:dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 1995 2:00 PM To: Darrell Norquay Subject: O2 sensors Yo: I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I see from engine operation. The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). I'm wondering if it could be one of two problems: 1. the O2 sensor is not reaching full operating temperature because it is in the header collector which is some distance from the exhaust port... With regards to point 1, what is the advantage of the newer heated oxygen sensors used on some systems? Is the heating circuit strictly to improve response time on startup and allow the EFI to run closed loop sooner, or is it something different altogether? Would using heated O2 sensors correct this condition if this is the problem? 2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean because of the different stoich point for propane... With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. regards dn -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<= <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>/\ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjAIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB 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QCfwLA8xrzK/M88vbyA+PDPfNx84Lzk/NN8gX9JfKqQiQZEgJ4kAtfH9CdBiRzFJ0FZVxHFHYGJU v3FSadL28fSAw0GoQyI6H/wvPkC/Qc9C30PvRFQZaK+PX5BvkX+Kkn2KYABJsAADABAQAAAAAAMA ERABAAAAQAAHMED152Da0boBQAAIMED152Da0boBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAAYRw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Dec 25 23:19:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA18177; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:08:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from qsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA18172; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:08:20 -0500 Received: from qsirmt04.qsi.com by qsi.com (4.1/3.2.012693-Quality Systems Incorporated); id AA01240 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 25 Dec 95 18:09:02 EST Received: by qsirmt04.qsi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD2F4.01AD55A0@qsirmt04.qsi.com>; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:08:34 -0600 Message-Id: <01BAD2F4.01AD55A0@qsirmt04.qsi.com> From: Jim Pearl To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: O2 sensors Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:08:33 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Do a YAHOO search on the WEB for this subject. There is some good = information out there and someone actually took apart an MSD unit and = found the construction to be something less than ideal. The probable = reason why the K&N unit took so long to warm up was probably because it = wasn't heated (?). The advantage of a heated sensor is that it can be = placed further down the pipe and will stay "cleaner" and not clog as = easily. If I have a chance I'll track down the WEB site that has the = info and post it.. ---------- >From: BradyEng@aol.com[SMTP:BradyEng@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 1995 9:40 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: O2 sensors In a message dated 95-12-23 18:35:27 EST, you write: >I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors >in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED >bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The >readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I >see from engine operation. > >The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle >openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of >power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was >actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons >long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor >output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point >the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). > >2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 >sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean >because of the different stoich point for propane... > >With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to >correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with >alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a >correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. I would like to second this question on O2 sensors. It appears to me = that the garden variety used in production autos are basically go-nogo gauges = for rich-lean. However, meters with O2 sensors are sold which are reported = to be useful tuning aids and accurate to ~0.5 A/F. Does anyone have comments = on prices, sources, and performance of the sensors used in the aftermarket systems? To answer a question in this query directly Bob Behn wrote an article in Turbo Bike Volume IV Number I on air fuel ratio meters that included = data for alchohol and propane. Turbo Bike is available from Joe Haile Enterprises, PO Box 8000725, = Valencia, CA 91380-0725, Tel 805-255-3426. Bob Behn sells an A/F meter @ RB = Racing 1625 W. 134th St., Gardena, CA 90249, Tel 310-515-5720. Meters are also available from K&N @ 714-684-9762. I've seen the K&N in operation on a street KZ1000 (4 cyl air cooled 2 valve motorcycle) with a header. It = took a while to warm up, but sure speeded up the jetting process. The short version is that stoichiometric is stoichiometric on the gage = or O2 sensor, although the actual A/F ratio changes with fuel . Rich and Lean = Best Torque are between about 86% and 92% of stoichiometric. The problem is = that O2 concentration just doesn't change much below stoichiometric. CO = becomes a much better indicator, but I havn't heard of real time sensors for this. I'm sure this topic has been covered before in this forum, but I would = very much appreciate it if it was discussed again.=20 Thanks SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 26 13:59:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA19224; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:50:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from execpc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA19219; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:50:21 -0500 Received: from deneb.execpc.com (deneb.execpc.com [169.207.5.100]) by execpc.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA13755 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:50:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:50:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512261350.HAA13755@execpc.com> X-Sender: zurlo@mail.execpc.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jim Zurlo Subject: Re: Carb vs Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:10 AM 12/22/95, you wrote: >Ok, it looks like no one reads Hot Rod. In a previous post, I asked if >anyone has read the issue of Hot Rod that had an article on >Carburetion vs Fuel Injection. Since I have not received a reply, I must >assume that either someone is too embarrassed to admit that they read >Hot Rod or that no one reads it. I tried to find it down at the >University, but they stopped their subscription in 1991 :(. > >The title is Carburetion vs. Fuel Injection in the October 1, 1994 issue >of Hot Rod. The summary of the article is "the dyno doesn't lie." >Derrick Early >early@finite.nrl.navy.mil > I haven't read the article, but we do OK with just carbs. We get 3000 BHP with an Impco 6 pack. That's 220 psi BMEP! Bet none of your fuel injected engines have that kind of BMEP. The carbs are quite durable although they are not the best for transients, but who cares about transients any way. Oh, I suppose I should mention that's from a 214 liter turbocharged natural gas engine used in industrial applications :-) Jim Zurlo zurlo@execpc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 26 16:12:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA19445; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 16:05:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rocinante.gsfc.nasa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA19440; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:04:59 -0500 From: jim_brady@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov Received: from msmail.gsfc.nasa.gov by rocinante.gsfc.nasa.gov (5.65/1.35) id AA04200; Tue, 26 Dec 95 11:06:56 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA820004082; Tue, 26 Dec 95 10:45:33 EST Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 10:45:33 EST Message-Id: <9511268200.AA820004082@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Carb vs. EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Derrick (Early), I have been receiving Hot Rod for a few years now and found that article interesting. I truly believe they were mostly interested in quarter mile et's. While a carbuerator is considerably cheaper and very effective at the Drags, the versitility and efficiency of the EFI (particularly TPI) is unparalled. I have the '63 Chevy on the DYI_EFI web site. It is carbuerated (because of cost) but eventually I will install a late model TPI unit for better gas mileage and consistent performance. Having a fast V-8 is AWESOME but when your filling that tank with 93 octane (10.5:1 compression) you want every drop used as efficiently as possible. Hot Rod also had special on aftermarket EFI units in the April '94 edition. So, if your drag racing the expense of fuel injection is a bit extravagant but for every day cruisability fuel injection is worth the initial investment. MTaylor, I subscribe to PHR, Car Craft and Hot Rod. Hot Rod has stated the reason for their Chevy bias: a majority of street rodders drive Chevys. I love them all! I have a Ford Pickup and find it far superior to Chevrolets offerings. The basics are the same no matter what badge your vehicle wears. Has anyone out there retrofitted TPI for early model vehicles? Any info would be appreciated. Diamond Jim Brady '63 Chevy '71 Ford Pickup '92 Grand AM From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 26 17:31:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA19603; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:25:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from finite.nrl.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA19598; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:25:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199512261725.MAA19598@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by finite.nrl.navy.mil (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA19344; Tue, 26 Dec 95 12:25:48 -0500 From: Derrick Early Subject: Re: Carb vs. EFI To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 12:25:48 "EST In-Reply-To: <9511268200.AA820004082@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov>; from "jim_brady@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov" at Dec 26, 95 10:45 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Derrick (Early), > I have been receiving Hot Rod for a few years now and found that > article interesting. I truly believe they were mostly interested in > quarter mile et's. While a carbuerator is considerably cheaper and > very effective at the Drags, the versitility and efficiency of the EFI > (particularly TPI) is unparalled. I have the '63 Chevy on the DYI_EFI > web site. It is carbuerated (because of cost) but eventually I will > install a late model TPI unit for better gas mileage and consistent > performance. Having a fast V-8 is AWESOME but when your filling that > tank with 93 octane (10.5:1 compression) you want every drop used as > efficiently as possible. Hot Rod also had special on aftermarket EFI > units in the April '94 edition. So, if your drag racing the expense > of fuel injection is a bit extravagant but for every day cruisability > fuel injection is worth the initial investment. > Jim, Thank you for the reply. What kind of change did you get in your fuel economy? Just curious, -- Derrick Early early@finite.nrl.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Dec 26 19:17:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA19862; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:11:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ecsis.ecsis.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA19857; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:11:30 -0500 Received: by ecsis.ecsis.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tUelV-0008xfC; Tue, 26 Dec 95 13:10 CST Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:10:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Brandon L. Walters" To: diy_efi Subject: 2 Questions about GM-TBI In-Reply-To: <9511268200.AA820004082@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Please excuse me if this has been well-thrashed previously. I have a late Chevy truck w/350 and TBI. I wanted to experiment with it some. 1. Is anybody using GM TBI injectors in their projects? They seem quite rugged & I wonder what all you can do with them. 2. If you want to fabricate your own tuned intake runners for a 350, what is the best way to replace the lower part of the manifold? The TPI style setup is not what I had in mind. Cheers & Happy New Year, Brandon Walters From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 27 09:26:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA21146; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:14:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA21140; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 04:14:04 -0500 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ab10224; 27 Dec 95 9:13 GMT Received: from clintsmc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.122.156]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa11408; 27 Dec 95 9:13 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:11:30 GMT From: Clint Sharp Message-Id: <474@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re: Carb vs Fuel Injection X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS Lines: 15 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In your message dated Tuesday 26, December 1995 you wrote : > I haven't read the article, but we do OK with just carbs. We get > 3000 BHP with an Impco 6 pack. That's 220 psi BMEP! Bet none of your > fuel injected engines have that kind of BMEP. The carbs are quite durable > although they are not the best for transients, but who cares about transients > any way. BMEP no, but 3000BHP on a 214 litre engine works out to 14.something BHP per litre so my fuel injected 1.6l is slightly more powerful at 71 BHP per litre therefore FI rules :-) -- We apologise for the lack of coherent humorous comments. Normal service will be resumed shortly. clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 27 16:17:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21779; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:10:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21774; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:10:27 -0500 From: FIScot@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA25969 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:10:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:10:25 -0500 Message-ID: <951227111024_24711242@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 2 Questions about GM-TBI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subj: 2 Questions about GM-TBI Date: 95-12-26 14:42:33 EST From: blwalt@ecsis.ecsis.net (Brandon L. Walters) > 1. Is anybody using GM TBI injectors in their projects? They seem quite > rugged & I wonder what all you can do with them. I am in (slow) process of trying to use them. This was triggered by an article in Sept '91 Truckin' magazine. Turbo City had put two dual TBI's on a two-four barrel intake manifold. It looks slick, and has plenty of air flow ability. I called and they said you HAVE to have a custom chip (of course!). That meant a DIY'er had to figure out the GM TBI computer, if you wanted to use it. That being done, I still have two questions. Will the stock peak-and -hold injector drivers like having double the load if I parallel the the TBI injectors? Turbo City claims to use the stock truck TBI ECM. The if drivers will live, maybe a little extra in the injector voltage compensation tables (or similar) will make up the difference in injector turn-on time? Any comments? Also, the firing order. The intake is an Offy 360. It is similar to an open plenum with a divider in the middle. This puts cylinder #7 just 90 crank degrees after cylinder #5, with another 630 crank degrees until cylinder #5 fires again. Will this set-up have a big mixture distribution problem? That is, will cylinder #5 receive most of the fuel that is injected? > 2. If you want to fabricate your own tuned intake runners for a 350, what > is the best way to replace the lower part of the manifold? The TPI style > setup is not what I had in mind. TPI has long runners. This makes great mid-range torque. Great for gas mileage, and I imagine a great tow-motor in a truck. If you want lots of upper RPM HP, then some other form of manifold is required. This is part of the reason for my persuing the dual TBI's. They will be used on a much shorter intake manifold, that was meant for wet-flow. A tunnel ram is also meant for wet-flow, maybe you could adapt the base of a tunnel ram manifold, with your own custom plenum on top? Of course, I have to get an SBC to mount this on..... The present V-6's in the famaily vehicles just won't do. Thanks, Scot Sealander FIScot@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 27 19:17:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA22157; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:11:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sh1.ro.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA22152; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:11:08 -0500 Received: from ts1p4.ro.com (ts1p4.ro.com [205.216.92.24]) by sh1.ro.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA26776 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:18:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:18:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199512272018.OAA26776@sh1.ro.com> X-Sender: toy4x4@ro.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jack Alford Subject: Hello Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello All ! I'm new here and thought I'd introduce myself, my name is Jack Alford and I live in Decatur, AL. My current Fi project is an attempt to put a GM TBI unit on my little 4cyl. 22R Toyota motor in my 4wheel drive pickup. Before you tell me, I know Toyota has later model truck engines with EFI but they use a sortof TPI which won't work on the higher compression head/piston setup that I am using, without ALOT of expensive head modification .... I have *mentally* conquered most of the obstacles for completing this swap except figuring out what to do about my distributor. The wiring diagrams for the vehicle that I got my TBI unit out of show four wires going from the ECM or coil, can't remember now, to the distributor. Any ideas ?? Oh yeah, my donor vehicle is an '88 S-10 w 2.5L engine, it's about the same size motor as my 4cyl toyota and the TBI unit is of the one-barrel variety ... Any and all info. appreciated ... - jack alford ==> toy4x4@ro.com --> Decatur, AL From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Dec 27 22:50:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA22513; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:43:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA22508; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:43:26 -0500 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA05234 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:43:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:43:25 -0500 Message-ID: <951227174324_24995683@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: General question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 95-12-21 22:10:59 EST, dzorde@aesprodata.com.au writes: > I found Haltech too expensive when I was looking for one, there are a > lot of equivalent systems around that are cheaper. > > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > Can some one tell me what the cheaper systems are? Most of the systems I've heard of cost about the same or more than Haltech. Thanks -Bonn From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 28 00:14:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA22630; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:03:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spook.cia.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA22625; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:02:58 -0500 Received: from (a04 [203.17.36.44]) by spook.cia.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13195 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 10:59:43 +1100 Message-ID: <30E2EAF0.4865@cia.com.au> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:07:28 -0800 From: Doug Robson X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b2a (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: cheaper FI computers References: <951227174324_24995683@mail06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Microtech In australia sell for about 700 ish and use limited adjustablility mainly for racing. I can find out a contact if you want -- Doug Robson Sydney Australia ------------------------------------------------------------- doug@cia.com.au | Thank God for | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Gravity 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | ------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 28 01:08:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA22716; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:59:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA22711; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:59:25 -0500 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma015379; Thu Dec 28 05:54:18 1995 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma006119; Thu Dec 28 11:58:17 1995 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA02322 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:58:17 +1100 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id LAA20417 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:58:15 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199512280058.LAA20417@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: cheaper FI computers To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:58:14 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <30E2EAF0.4865@cia.com.au> from "Doug Robson" at Dec 28, 95 11:07:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 698 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Microtech In australia sell for about 700 ish and use limited > adjustablility mainly for racing. I can find out a contact if you want while the mircotech will work, for $700 I'd be looking for a _digital_ computer, not 50 bucks worth of analog components in a nice looking box. I think you can get one of the stripped down Haltechs in this range (you get better prices if you can get a mechanic with a business card to order it too..). Hmm.. How about diy_efi mate's rates from the guys on the list who make/sell this stuff.. Or you could wait a while for the EFI332 guys to get something together ;-) Cheers&Happy new year, Craig. PS any more thoughts on algorithms for the EFI332 box? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 28 02:27:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA22941; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:12:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA22936; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:12:57 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id VAA19855; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:12:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199512280212.VAA19855@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:07:49 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: cheaper FI computers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Microtech In australia sell for about 700 ish and use limited >adjustablility mainly for racing. I can find out a contact if you want > >-- >Doug Robson Sydney Australia >------------------------------------------------------------- >doug@cia.com.au | Thank God for > | >Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Gravity >1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | >------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'll start keeping a list of the after-market EFI systems that get listed here..In a month or so I'll post the list here..If you send the name of a company, please give as much info as you can, not only name, address, phone, but also prices and features... Let's go guys....This will be a nice list to develop... Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 28 03:25:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA23092; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:09:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA23087; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:09:07 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id WAA25931; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:09:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199512280309.WAA25931@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:03:59 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: cheaper FI computers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hmm.. How about diy_efi mate's rates from the guys on the list who >make/sell this stuff.. Or you could wait a while for the EFI332 guys to >get something together ;-) Word has it that the EFI332 guy's are not going to have a simple to use programming interface for quite some time. This will keep a lot of us from trying to use that system. Hopefully they'll change their mind and develop a "user friendly" software package.. Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Dec 28 03:34:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA23107; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:19:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moe.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA23102; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:19:18 -0500 Received: from Default by moe.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id WAA27172; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:18:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199512280318.WAA27172@moe.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_820145636==_" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:13:56 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: cheaper FI computers X-Mailer: X-Attachments: C:\WINWORD\EPA-MG~1\EFI_SYS.DOC; Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --=====================_820145636==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here is what I have so far on after market DIY EFI systems: --=====================_820145636==_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="EFI_SYS.DOC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAFgAAAAAAAAAA EAAAGQAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAABcAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:14:15 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: cheaper FI computers X-Mailer: X-Attachments: C:\WINWORD\EPA-MG~1\EFI_SYS.DOC; Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --=====================_820145655==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here is what I have so far on after market DIY EFI systems: --=====================_820145655==_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="EFI_SYS.DOC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAFgAAAAAAAAAA EAAAGQAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAABcAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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