From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 07:34:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA13190; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:23:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA13185; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 02:22:48 -0500 Received: from dialup15.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0thtL5-0002DWC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 23:21 PST Message-Id: X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:19:29 -0800 To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re: Re: Sensor Questions? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:39 PM 1/31/96 +1100, you wrote: >> its hard to build a non microprocessor based fi system without >> a maf ; think about it. >> > >I disagree. It would be quite simple. >-- > Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au >Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 >Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 > University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA >** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** > i agree with the disagreement - vw built one in the 60s before uPs for the American type III market - it used an LDVT on a MAP not MAF sensor, two temp sensors (head and air) 4 injectors fired in banks of 2. for my old 70 type III, it was the most efficient (36 mpg in squareback vs 30 for lighter carb bug ) most powerful (stock of course) cleanest 1600 vw engine built for that model year. i took the controller cover off to fix a bad solder joint on a injector current limiting resistor. all discrete components.... Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 11:22:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA13522; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:10:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA13512; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:10:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:10:07 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199602011110.GAA13512@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archives to all the mailing lists are available through Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for all of the mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe to the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 11:49:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA13602; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:38:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA13597; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:38:04 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.130]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Thu, 1 Feb 96 22:38:00 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 22:38:00 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: mrb@mail.mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Subject: Re: MAF vs. MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Guys, a MAP system is no harder to DESIGN than a MAF system > >The difference is that a MAF system is much more flexible in the >real world ... with a MAP system, you have a calculated map of the >engines VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY, which is changed by things such as >exhausts, etc ... you measure MAP, calculate air density, and with >the rpm and VE know how much fuel you need ... > >If you change the SHAPE of the VE "map" of the engine, not even the >EGO corrections (BLM for you GM'ers) will compensate completely, since >the BLM cells are much coarser than the actual VE map ... only a few >places will be actually "on" the rest, a bit off .. > >A MAF system measures actual air into the engine, and needs only minor >corrections in general ... > >Jim Conforti > >Converting Flappers to HFM's and Speed-Density for racing use only > > > Jim, You still need a table for air fuel ratio load compensation. It would be easy if you could always stick to 14.7 (or any single AFR). But if you are measuring what's going in I agree you are in front. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 12:53:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA13718; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:42:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA13713; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:41:57 -0500 Received: from ccii.co.za [196.3.224.65] by aztec.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0thyJC-000aqGC; Thu, 1 Feb 96 14:40 EET Received: from wrm.ccii.co.za by ccii.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0thy7s-0002CCC; Thu, 1 Feb 96 14:28 GMT+0200 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 14:28 GMT+0200 X-Sender: wrm@gateway.ccii.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu So I said: >The system consists of a single injector in the throttle body, an inlet air >temp sensor, a throttle position sensor, a servo to control the throttle at >idle (idle speed), a water temp sensor and a lambda sensor. And engine rpm info >is sent to the system from the ignition computer. (I get the digest, so I won't quote the replies to this, but I'll try to answer the questions) No barometric pressure meter. Definitely no air mass / manifold pressure sensor. Except if they're using the inlet ait temp sensor (looks like a thermistor) but if that's the case they're _really_ good :-) Dump of the EPROM - I'm planning to do that... :-) Engines with little vacuum? Well this one has lots, but lets face it this is much cheaper than using a MAP/MAF sensor. Pity about the flat spot. Apparently the system can "learn" as well, storing stuff in RAM. But maybe the engine's getting a little loose by now (110000 km) and the tables are bottoming / topping out. BTW Bosch built the D-jetronic system used by VW. Check out the sig. MAP sensor, all analogue, quite a hack really. Ask /Bill (Bill Lewis) for further details (Sorry Bill :-) I can tell you too if you're _really_ interested :-) Thanks W -- Wouter de Waal ZS1KE GE>AT d-(pu) s+:-- a- C++$ UL+ U*+$ P>++ L++ E- W N+++>++ Argo 505 / FT200 !o K w(--) !O !M V(--) PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP>++ t 5? X? R? tv>--- b+++ DI+ D+ G e+++(*) h--- r+++ y+++(*) '72 Puma - 1700 FI Type IV engine Perseverance my son, '6? Series IIA SW - factory fitted Lucas immobiliser it's a Land/ /Rover "All journeys end when we reach our destination but the journeying remains a thing apart, unique unto itself. Most of us make life's journeys without understanding that the journeying is a separate thing." -- Bob Hoover From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 13:55:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA13814; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:34:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gate2.ks.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13809; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:34:23 -0500 From: Tommy.Palm@oron.ds.sll.se Received: by gate2.ks.se id AA12553 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:41:03 +0100 Received: from ming.ds.sll.se(159.38.50.119) by gate2.ks.se via smap (V1.3) id sma009859; Thu Feb 1 13:49:02 1996 Received: from by ming.ds.sll.se with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA08513; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:48:41 +0100 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 13:48:07 +0100 Message-Id: Subject: Reply: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Mime-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; name="Meddelandetext" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Yes, you don't need a close loop if you take a good think again. I first= saw an article of the development of Monotronic in SAE-transactions in -83. It = needs exact mapping of the angles and no pressure or flowsensors. It must be t= he way that F1 cars and other with multithrottle systems use i imagine. I think= i have the article somewere if you are very interested. Cheers! Tommy Palm tommy.palm@oron.ds.sll.se From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 14:42:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA14223; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:30:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14218; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:30:13 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02721 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA23244 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:30:10 -0500 Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA02450; Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:35:15 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA25703; Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:34:46 EST Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:34:46 EST Message-Id: <9602011434.AA25703@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Putting it Together Cc: ducharme@franklin.vf.mmc.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ok Guys, Anyone out there want to take a stab at putting all these threads together for a EE candidate who's better with chips and code than dynos and and lambda values and summarize the approaches to calculate the fuel charge per intake cycle based on the various sensors (MAF vs MAP vs none), throttle position, charge air and engine temp, and the pros and cons of each? It seems everyone has an opinion, and "you know what they say about opinions..." Someone please give me a fairly accurate explanation of what lambda is and how O2 sensors do (or don't) indicate it? Finally, if you can't measure MAP or MAF how do you do load and altitude compensation? Just stirring the pot... Cliff Ducharme / "A wing and a prayer..." ________|*|________ b / d From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 16:23:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA15277; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:07:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15272; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:07:16 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com (lndshrk@[204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA21577 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:07:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:07:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602011607.JAA21577@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: MAF vs. MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:38 PM 2/1/96 +1100, you wrote: >You still need a table for air fuel ratio load compensation. It >would be easy if you could always stick to 14.7 (or any single AFR). Oh, there are MANY tables in a BOSCH Motronic DME .. TOO many, if you ask me .. Generally, they combine the "lambda" table and the "VE" table into one unit .. it is tuned empirically to give the desired lambda on the exact engine... usually on the dyno ... >But if you are measuring what's going in I agree you are in front. AGREED!! Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 16:23:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA15271; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:07:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15265; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:07:12 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com (lndshrk@[204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA21558; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:07:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:07:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602011607.JAA21558@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Cc: wrm@ccii.co.za Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:28 PM 2/1/96 GMT+0200, you wrote: >No barometric pressure meter. Definitely no air mass / manifold pressure >sensor. Except if they're using the inlet ait temp sensor (looks like a >thermistor) but if that's the case they're _really_ good :-) OK then, you have what BOSCH calls the Alpha-n system .. (I wish I had a charachter to represent "alpha" in ISO text!) .. Alpha is throttle angle N is of course, rpm I am AMAZED that they actually built some cars (street) based on this, but SA must have different emissions laws than the US :) The engine is completely mapped, and ANY change to the engine AT ALL will require a remapping ... You'll also notice that the WEATHER has some bad effects on the driveability ... as the air density changes, the system can NOT really compensate that well .. What they do is derive the static manifold pressure at STP as a function of Alpha and N .. from that and a map of engine VE [ f(air density, rpm) ] you can derive the VE as a function of alpha and rpm... With a VE table, and a lambda table all is well ... >Dump of the EPROM - I'm planning to do that... :-) Also note the processor (package, pins, xtal speed, numbers on top)!! Also, I have seen some DME's that have a VACUUM line running to a nice little baro sensor on the PCB ... >Apparently the system can "learn" as well, storing stuff in RAM. But maybe >the engine's getting a little loose by now (110000 km) and the tables are >bottoming / topping out. Note that "adaptive" or BLM, or whatever can only be accurate where the lambda is fixed at one .. (with a normal HEGO sensor) ... at WOT this is not the case, above a certain load and rpm (where HEGO feedback is off) it is ALSO not the case, because most manufacturers do NOT try to seek to lambda=1 there!! Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 18:00:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16352; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:39:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.pilot.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16347; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:39:09 -0500 Received: from verity.com (unknown-143-5.verity.com [192.187.143.5]) by mail.pilot.net with SMTP id JAA18486 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cato.verity.com by verity.com (4.1/SMI-4.1_Verity-Main-950202) id AA07132; Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:40:10 PST From: neville@Verity.COM (Neville Newman) Received: (neville@localhost) by cato.verity.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25517 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:38:49 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:38:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199602011738.JAA25517@cato.verity.com> To: diy_efi Subject: a different MAF question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone on the list ever tried to splice a MAF sensor into an AFM (Air Flow Meter - Bosch's term for their air vane boxes) ? i have an L-jet system on my car (1.3L Fiat) and i also have a MAF sensor from a SAAB 9000 (smallest available at the time i got it). i'd like to be able to fit the MAF with some sort of box to map its output into what the L-Jet ECU wants to see from the flapper. i have been wanting to fit the MAF in upstream of the flapper and monitor output from both under various speed and load conditions, but the engine has developed some other problems (as in, it isn't running). The reason i wanted to do this is mainly so that i can make the EFI accomodate a ram-air system and serious altitude changes (e.g. LA vs. Denver). -neville From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 18:15:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16456; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:57:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16451; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:57:52 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA01770; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:57:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:57:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602011757.KAA01770@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Putting it Together -- MAF Cc: ducharme@franklin.vf.mmc.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:34 AM 2/1/96 EST, you wrote: >Ok Guys, > >Anyone out there want to take a stab at putting all these threads >together for a EE candidate who's better with chips and code than dynos and >and lambda values and summarize the approaches to calculate the fuel charge >per intake cycle based on the various sensors (MAF vs MAP vs none), throttle >position, charge air and engine temp, and the pros and cons of each? It seems >everyone has an opinion, and "you know what they say about opinions..." Well, here's the math if you have a MAF that produces an analog voltage as a function of the airmass First find Q ... Q=f(Up/Uv) where Up/Uv is the ratio of the MAF output to reference voltages (Bosch meters are logarithmic/exponential) From Q, the speed of the engine (n, in rpms) and a CONSTANT (Ki) which quantifies the fuel injector flow rate we can calculate the LOAD SIGNAL (Tl) which is effectively the THEORETICAL (Lambda=1) injector open time for the currently inducted amount of air per engine cycle or stroke (depending on whether we have a batch, semi-sequential, or sequential EFI system). Q Tl = ---------- n * Ki With Tl quantified, we now take into account the vagarities of the particular engine family and operating conditions by introducing multiplicative factors to correct the theoretical injector time to the ACTUAL time for injection (Ti) needed at that instant. Finally an ADDITIVE factor (Tv) is added to compensate for the differing injector opening time under lower than nominal voltages. Ti = (Tl * [C,D,E...]) + Tv It is this signal (Ti) that is applied to the injectors Hope this helps, it's from a BOSCH primer I'm writing ... Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 19:30:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA16771; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:08:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from engg.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA16766; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:08:40 -0500 From: beaubien@engg.ucalgary.ca Received: from b03.engg.ucalgary.ca by engg.ucalgary.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14825; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:08:27 -0700 Received: by b03.engg.ucalgary.ca (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA16759; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:08:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:08:26 -0700 Message-Id: <9602011908.AA16759@b03.engg.ucalgary.ca> To: DIY_EFI Subject: 68332 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everyone, My name is Garrett Beaubien, and I am in my second year of EE. I have joined the formula SAE team, and the group I am with is interested in building an engine management system (ignition and fuel). Our school teaches an introductory course in assembly language for the 68000 using the 68332, so we decided that we would use that. A coupple questions: 1) Is there an evaluation board available for it? I'v heard of the "business card", what types of boards are available, what do they have on them, and how much do they cost? Oh, who would I call to order one? 2) Is there a web-page for the 332? I tried: http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html and it didn't work. Is there another? 3) are there any books or manuals on the 332 other than those from Motorolla? can you reccommend any? Thanks in advance for any help. Garrett. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 19:43:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA16901; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:27:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA16896; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:27:18 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <176934-1>; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:26:29 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29777; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:37:26 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029775; Thu Feb 1 12:37:17 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08471; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:36:52 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA23829; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:45:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:45:24 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9602011745.AA23829@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" said: > It would have to lean out the mixture to stochiometric, which is very > dangerous under full throttle conditions. and Land Shark said: > ... at WOT this is not the case, ... because most manufacturers do NOT try > to seek to lambda=1 there!! So I'd like a little clarification here. I know that OEM's go open loop at WOT and end up running rich (my Toyota P/U accelerates faster if you go WOT and then back off just a touch), but I don't know why. I can't see any danger running at stochiometric at WOT (but I can sure see why you don't want to go lean). I always assumed that manufacturers went open loop to run richer (more power) at WOT. Anyone know for sure? +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 20:50:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA17289; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:24:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17284; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:24:47 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA21272 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:21:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199602012021.AA21272@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:21:01 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:21:01 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 01 Feb 96 12:45:24 EST." <9602011745.AA23829@ivan.gallium.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 15:24:23 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > and end up running rich (my Toyota P/U accelerates faster if you go WOT and > then back off just a touch), but I don't know why. I can't see any danger > running at stochiometric at WOT (but I can sure see why you don't want to go > lean). I always assumed that manufacturers went open loop to run richer (more > power) at WOT. Anyone know for sure? One benefit of running rich at wide-open throttle (WOT) is lower average exhaust temperature. This may be one reason why manufacturers elect to run rich at WOT, which I believe they do. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 21:02:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA17371; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:44:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17366; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:44:21 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA07169 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:44:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:44:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602012044.NAA07169@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: a different MAF question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:38 AM 2/1/96 -0800, you wrote: >Has anyone on the list ever tried to splice a MAF sensor into an >AFM (Air Flow Meter - Bosch's term for their air vane boxes) ? YES :) The AFM (airflow meter vs. HFM for Hot Film airmass Meter) has a logarithmic output of airflow vs voltage ... LN(F)=b+(Up/Uv)*a The HFM has a more complicated curve ... On a MOTRONIC (digital) you can just mung the internal tables to work, but on an analog system, you'll have to use hardware to convert .. Either a uP system, or easier, an 10bit A/D feeding the address lines of an eprom, with the DATA lines of said eprom feeding a 10/bit D/A .. Reference BOTH A/D and D/A to the 5v ref out of the L-Jet ... Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 21:15:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA17476; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:00:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA17471; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:00:26 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:00:15 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:00:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:00:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199602012100.OAA10645@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68332 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > My name is Garrett Beaubien, and I am in my second year of EE. I have joined > the formula SAE team, and the group I am with is interested in building an > engine management system (ignition and fuel). Our school teaches an > introductory course in assembly language for the 68000 using the 68332, so > we decided that we would use that. So is the SAE project approved? The last time I talked to Jens Stobernack he was not sure about the funding. > 2) Is there a web-page for the 332? I tried: > http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html > and it didn't work. Is there another? Go through the diy_efi page at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi RF. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Fridman fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Dept. of Computer Science http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/ University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta voice (403) 220-5104 Canada fax (403) 284-4707 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 1 21:58:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA17904; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:31:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA17899; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:31:05 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0P8HMKH00936YQW@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 01 Feb 1996 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <311130CC@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 01 Feb 1996 13:29:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 13:31:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Open loop at WOT (was Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic) To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <311130CC@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 38 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Michael F. Sargent writes: >So I'd like a little clarification here. I know that OEM's go open loop at WOT >and end up running rich (my Toyota P/U accelerates faster if you go WOT and >then back off just a touch), but I don't know why. I can't see any danger >running at stochiometric at WOT (but I can sure see why you don't want to go >lean). I always assumed that manufacturers went open loop to run richer (more >power) at WOT. Anyone know for sure? Yes, it runs rich at WOT to obtain the best power. I'm not sure if running *exactly* stochiometric at WOT is bad for the engine, but the *process* of getting to stochiometric causes the engine to run lean some of the time. Since the O2 sensor has such a abrupt change at stochiometric (not to mention the engine's uneven combustion from one cycle to the next), the control loop has to adjust the mixture lean-rich-lean-rich repeatedly so that the average is close to stochiometric. I don't know how lean it goes during this process, but I wouldn't want to find out. If you ever look at the O2 sensor voltage when the engine is running closed loop, you can see the voltage change from close to 0V to close to 1V a few times each second. This is a slow loop, and has to be to allow for the delays from the fuel injector to the O2 sensor. Now imagine the engine speed changing (accelerating) at WOT throttle. The ecu trying to maintain stochiometric conditions using the O2 sensor would be nearly impossible. That's why closed loop mode is used only at stable engine speeds (ie. cruise condition). For a turbocharged car, running rich or even excessively rich under boost will reduce the chance of detonation. I read somewhere that the highly turbo charged race cars used this technique to compensate for lower octane race fuel. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 00:20:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA18581; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:00:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA18576; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:00:10 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA24252 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:00:05 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA19438; Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:00:03 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA04497; Thu, 1 Feb 96 18:00:02 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02263; Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:53:42 CST Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:53:42 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602012353.AA02263@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At WOT, I would sure hope they designed the system to run rich... I'd like a little extra power to pass that truck! Hmm, with the tighter EPA regulations do they specify maximum emission at WOT? [Usually it averaged over a test cycle]. On the Bosch mono-jetronic, the Bosch "Red" Handbook has a pretty good description of the system. Keep in mind it is for "cost-sensitive" applications, and I do not think South Africa has any emission requirements. For those of you who have joined the list recently, Steve has posted (and is available) on the www site a list of books. I highly recommend the Bosch Handbooks. Err... while I am at it, could you please NOT quote a long article. Makes if difficult (I know some mail readers are a pain when replying). Cheers, Tom Walter Austin, TX. (about 28 degrees... not used this cold stuff any more, and I used to live in Germany! ;-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 00:37:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA18624; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:21:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA18619; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:21:10 -0500 Received: from p2-4.net-link.net (p2-4 [205.217.6.138]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16993 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:18:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199602020018.TAA16993@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 19:12:57 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Bill Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:18 PM 1/31/96 -0600, you wrote: > >>At 05:09 PM 1/31/96 GMT+0200, you wrote: >> >>>I recently started looking at the FI system in my wife's Fiat Uno again, >>>after it developed a flat spot on accellerating. >>> >>>The system consists of a single injector in the throttle body, an inlet air >>>temp sensor, a throttle position sensor, a servo to control the throttle at >>>idle (idle speed), a water temp sensor and a lambda sensor. And engine rpm >>>info is sent to the system from the ignition computer. >> >Jim responds > >> What .. NO MAP sensor .. and no AIR FLOW or AIRMASS sensor??? >> >> are you SURE??? >> > >It is possible to run an engine with no device at all to measure the >airflow. This is how the holley projection works. It is simple. You >simply measure the throttle angle and rpm and reference a map. However this >map must be very accurate. It is quite commonly done on engines with little >vaccume like morotcycles and highly cammed race cars. > >David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com >Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 >Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 >89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 >74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | >Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | > > Another thought on sensors...... Stu Hilborn made a name (and a comfortable living) for himself by designing and marketing fuel injection systems since the '50's. The system consisted of a positive-displacement pump, a throttle plate for each runner, a jet for each runner, and a "barrel valve"....a device which was mechanically linked to the throttle plates and essentially modulated fuel flow as a function of throttle plate position....period. No MAP, MAF, no density or temperature transducers. If you've ever driven a high performance vehicle with one of these systems, you've found that they're lacking on a variety of fronts (emissions, driveability, economy), but nonetheless provide what it takes at the track. And I presume at least some of you reading this are doing so because you're looking for increased performance. I'm not suggesting that this type of sensor-less system (some may call it sense-less!) is the way to go.....but let's all remember that AFTER AN INITIAL TUNING and under constant barometric and temperature conditions, all that is required to calculate fuel rate is RPM and throttle plate position. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 01:19:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA18761; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:01:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18756; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:01:05 -0500 Received: from ptp8.tecinfo.com (ptp8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.230]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA27221 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:55:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:55:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199602020055.SAA27221@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Engine codes Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:43 AM 2/1/96 EST, Will McGonegal wrote: >... if anyone is still interested in trying to figure out the port >themselves, I can pass along the information needed to set up the baud rate and >the circuitry used in the RS232 interface. > Yes, I would be very interested in geting any information that might help me extract data from my GM TPI ECM. Since I'm not interested in extracting data from all GM computers ever made, this MIGHT be just what the doctor ordered. Thanks a million, George M. Dailey gmd@tecinfo.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 01:50:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA18825; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:37:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18820; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:37:49 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA01055 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 1 Feb 96 18:37:46 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA25511; Thu, 1 Feb 96 18:37:43 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12445; Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:37:41 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02363; Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:31:22 CST Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:31:22 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602020131.AA02363@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Micheal, you made the comment about getting more power when you back off slightly from WOT: Check your linkage! The gas pedal should have a mechanical stop. Engine OFF, have a friend hold the gas pedal all the way down, and look into the carb/throttle body to check the butterfly position. Second, if electronic (computer controlled) ignition, it may retard the ignition a few degrees at WOT. Tom Walter Austin, TX.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 02:34:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA18907; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 02:18:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA18902; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:18:39 -0500 Received: from p3-1.net-link.net (p3-1 [205.217.6.165]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA19285 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:16:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199602020216.VAA19285@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 21:10:30 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Bill Subject: Re: 68332 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:08 PM 2/1/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >My name is Garrett Beaubien, and I am in my second year of EE. I have joined >the formula SAE team, and the group I am with is interested in building an >engine management system (ignition and fuel). Our school teaches an >introductory course in assembly language for the 68000 using the 68332, so >we decided that we would use that. > >A coupple questions: > >1) Is there an evaluation board available for it? I'v heard of the "business >card", what types of boards are available, what do they have on them, and >how much do they cost? Oh, who would I call to order one? > >2) Is there a web-page for the 332? I tried: > http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html > and it didn't work. Is there another? > >3) are there any books or manuals on the 332 other than those from Motorolla? > can you reccommend any? > >Thanks in advance for any help. > >Garrett. > > Your Motorola representative is your biggest asset at this point. I'v found them to be more than helpful in all situations. If they can't answer a question, they'll point you to someone who can. Also, contact Barry Dolan at Force Computer, Los Gatos, CA. Tell him what you need. Their stuff is quite pricey, though. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 06:05:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA19272; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 05:51:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from QUCDN.QueensU.CA by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA19266; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:51:34 -0500 Received: from qlink.queensu.ca by QUCDN.QueensU.CA (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 02 Feb 96 00:46:29 EST Received: by qlink.queensu.ca (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA25141; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:46:22 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: Hadzic Muhammed <3mh31@qlink.queensu.ca> X-Sender: 3mh31@qlink To: wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re[2]: Commercial systems (regulator) In-Reply-To: <9600308230.AA823043167@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Will The part number for the Bosch fuel regulator is [0 280 160 001]. Its from a 1968 VW type 3. It does still exist and any Bosch dealer can get thier hands on it from Bosch. But, the regulator is not sensitive to manifold pressure in stock form. There is a company in NY that carries a "Pressure Regulator Screw" that fits these regulators and makes then sensitive to the intake manifold pressure. The screw cost me $5 US and the regulator $69 CND including our 15% tax, the reg. may cost about 40-50 US. The people that lead me to the reg. are called: Mech-Tronic Services Inc. 323 Coolidge Drive Centerport, NY 11721 516-423-0523 They have the screw there for the reg. but you need to go to a Bosch dealer for the reg.. They also sell Bosch injectors at a good price. I found them through the US Boshe Motor Sports (Bosch Racing) and they seem interesting but I don't know the scope of thier business. good luck Muhammed Hadzic From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 06:52:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA19401; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 06:40:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA19396; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:40:23 -0500 Received: from by ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA24470; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:40:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:40:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199602020640.WAA24470@ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: a different MAF question To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >At 09:38 AM 2/1/96 -0800, you wrote: >>Has anyone on the list ever tried to splice a MAF sensor into an >>AFM (Air Flow Meter - Bosch's term for their air vane boxes) ? > > YES :) > > The AFM (airflow meter vs. HFM for Hot Film airmass Meter) has a logarithmic > output of airflow vs voltage ... LN(F)=b+(Up/Uv)*a > > The HFM has a more complicated curve ... > > On a MOTRONIC (digital) you can just mung the internal tables to work, > but on an analog system, you'll have to use hardware to convert .. > > Either a uP system, or easier, an 10bit A/D feeding the address lines of > an eprom, with the DATA lines of said eprom feeding a 10/bit D/A .. > > Reference BOTH A/D and D/A to the 5v ref out of the L-Jet ... > > Jim > >ihave even an even simpler methode take a variable frequency maf like gm uses and run that into a simple micro proc like a pic 16 and use a port output driving a cap with a constant current source to produce the analog output i bet you the pot in that thing could be resolved good enough in 100 or so steps a similar methode is used to tune varactor tuned tv tuners. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 07:52:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA19505; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:42:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA19500; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 02:42:47 -0500 Received: from ccii.co.za [196.3.224.65] by aztec.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tiG7u-000antC; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:41 EET Received: from wrm.ccii.co.za by ccii.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tiG3f-0002C6C; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:37 GMT+0200 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:37 GMT+0200 X-Sender: wrm@gateway.ccii.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Land Shark From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Cc: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Land Shark wrote: > >>No barometric pressure meter. Definitely no air mass / manifold pressure >>sensor. Except if they're using the inlet ait temp sensor (looks like a >>thermistor) but if that's the case they're _really_ good :-) > > OK then, you have what BOSCH calls the Alpha-n system .. (I wish I had a > charachter to represent "alpha" in ISO text!) .. > > Alpha is throttle angle > N is of course, rpm > > I am AMAZED that they actually built some cars (street) based on this, > but SA must have different emissions laws than the US :) Emission laws? Emission laws? Hmmm. Heard of those. :-) We still use leaded fuel. And the Uno lambda sensor seems to handle it without getting polluted / coated / whatever. But that's another story ... > > The engine is completely mapped, and ANY change to the engine AT ALL will > require a remapping ... You'll also notice that the WEATHER has some bad > effects on the driveability ... as the air density changes, the system can > NOT really compensate that well .. Actually, the Uno is remarkably driveable. Handles _really_ well. Never had any problems at all, except this flat spot that crept in recently. > Also note the processor (package, pins, xtal speed, numbers on top)!! But of course :-) > > Also, I have seen some DME's that have a VACUUM line running to a > nice little baro sensor on the PCB ... The Uno has a separate (Marelli?) ignition controller. Four teeth / magnets on the flywheel, little box with a built in vacuum advance sensor, controls the spark. But _only_ rpm info going to the FI box from the ignition box. 'nother thing. This system can "limp home" if _everything_ is bust. I.e. all the sensors can be out (except the rpm info from the ignition) and apparently you'll still get home. Sounds like black magic to me :-) W -- Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 CCII Systems Kenilworth, South Africa From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 13:16:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA20055; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:04:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA20050; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:04:32 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA04921 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:00:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021300.AA04921@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:00:41 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:00:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:04:12 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: re: Re: Sensor Questions? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 829 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "The solution to this is the MAF (mass air flow) sensor. Instead of measuring the percentage of maximum flow, it measures the actual amount of air that enters the engine. After some corrections for air temperature (simple) the ECM can then calculate the required amount of fuel." Mass Air measurement, at least with a hot wire, does not require temperature correction. That's the beauty of hot wire MAF systems: they measure mass flow rate of air, which is not dependent on temperature. If you measure volume flow rate of air(like Karmen vortex devices), you must measure the air's pressure and temperature before you can calulate it's density and therefore it's mass. That's why such devices have ACT(air charge temp) and BAP(barometric absolute pressure) built into them. Hot wire MAFs do not have these additional sensors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 13:38:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA20300; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:30:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA20295; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:30:14 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA10947 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:26:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021326.AA10947@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:26:24 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:26:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:29:10 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re: Sensor Questions? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1409 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "The airflow into the ports per revolution is almost directly related to the manifold pressure for most engines with a relatively flat volumetric efficiency characteristic." Most engines do not have a relatively flat volumetric efficiency curve, especially those with tuned induction systems. Virtually all mulitport injected systems utilize tuned induction systems. Only TBI systems, which are essentially fancy carburetors, do not use tuned intakes due to problems with wet flow. "FWIW, I installed an aftermarket speed-density system on the weekend and was able to tune the efi and distributorless ignition system to a driveable state within two minutes." Good for you. This is an excellent example of the fact that gasoline engines can run A/F ratio anywhere from 10.5:1 to 15:1(or higher, depending on the combustion chamber) and still be called drivable. That's another way of saying you could get your fueling wrong by about a 30% and the engine will still run. Same goes for spark timing. You can be way off before you would judge a vehicle as not being drivable. The point is, you cannot maintain a specific A/F ratio without knowing how much air the engine is consuming or without an accurate, wide range O2 sensor. This is a big point, since the difference between being drivable and passing EPA emissions fuel ecomony standard is enormous for the OEMs. DIYers need not meet these standards. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 14:33:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA20773; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:23:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hpserv0.cs.uit.no by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA20767; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:23:50 -0500 Received: from kenj.cs.uit.no by hpserv0.cs.uit.no with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/IOH-1.0) id AA071351024; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:23:45 +0100 Received: by kenj.cs.uit.no (1.37.109.16/HJ/Task-5) id AA298981024; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:23:44 +0100 From: ken@staff.cs.uit.no (Ken-Arne Jensen) Message-Id: <199602021423.AA298981024@kenj.cs.uit.no> Subject: Holley ProJection 4Di ? To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:23:44 +0100 (MET) X-Uri: http://www.cs.uit.no/~ken/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23GIJ-4] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1214 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi 2.2.96 This may not be directly within the primary topics of this list, but related: Lately Holley released a digital programmable TBI system ProJection 4Di, which have MAP input sensor and IAC (Idle Air Control) motor. It also control ignition timing, and may be attached to a knock sensor. The VE (Volumetric Efficiency) map, ignition timing and rev limit are programmable from a PC. >From the information Holley have given me so far, this system seems to be a bit better than the old analog controller. The questions I have are: 1) Have anyone out there had any hand-on experience with this particular system? I am especially interested in views around tuneability and fuel economy. Also information around which CPU they use are valuable. 2) Holley claims the system to be "Sequential", what does that mean for a TBI system with only 4 injectors? Thanks for any help! //// Ken-Arne Jensen // E-Mail: ken@staff.cs.uit.no / /// Computer Science Department // URL: http://www.cs.uit.no/~ken // // University of Tromsø // Phone: +47-776-44042 /// / N-9000 Tromsø, NORWAY // Fax: 44054 (barcode="ken@staff.cs.ui") //// From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 14:35:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA20892; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:28:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA20887; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:28:37 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA24691 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:24:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021424.AA24691@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:24:47 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:24:47 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sensor Questions? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 02 Feb 96 08:29:10 +0500." <199602021326.AA10947@internet-mail.ford.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 09:28:15 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > This is a big point, since the difference between being drivable > and passing EPA emissions fuel ecomony standard is enormous for > the OEMs. I second that. So true. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 14:48:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA20987; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:39:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA20976; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:05 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA27145 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021435.AA27145@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:14 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:14 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:38:45 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: re: Re: Sensor Questions? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1605 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "Oh man, now I'm confused. MAF isn't good as the basis for fuel injection alone, since the amount of air past the MAF sensor isn't necessarily the amount of air into the engine. Remember the plenum stores air, so a sudden increase in the amount of required air will draw a vacuum on the plenum before the MAF actually sees the increase in airflow." You are absolutely right. That's whys carburetors had pump shots. EFI systems(even SD based) have acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of throttle transients. That's one of the main reasons for using a TPS(throttle position sensor) on hot wire MAF engines. SD systems are NOT "perfectly capable" of learning about engine mods which affect volumetric efficiency and never will be because of the way they work. You have to teach them. Part throttle learning from O2 sensors doesn't work "perfectly" because engine pumping losses change dramatically with throttle angle. Vol eff curves at part throttle bear no resemblance to WOT vol eff(In fact, there is no such thing as "part throttle vol eff"). Properly designed MAF systems learn by themselves. You just can't beat measuring air consumption directly as opposed to guessing and inferring it. I'm not discarding SD based systems outright. They work great if you have the time to map a system out, and they are less expensive. It just seemed to me that they have recently been touted as being capable of doing things things they simply cannot do as well as a MAF system. If you have the time and facilities for mapping and engine's air consumption, good for you. Most of us do not. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 14:48:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA20982; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:39:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA20977; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:05 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA27144 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021435.AA27144@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:13 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:35:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:38:44 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1650 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "I always assumed that manufacturers went open loop to run richer (more power) at WOT. Anyone know for sure?" "Yes, it runs rich at WOT to obtain the best power. I'm not sure if running *exactly* stochiometric at WOT is bad for the engine..." Three reasons we run rich at WOT: 1) Power. Unless you have an ideal, perfectly vaporized mixure, running rich always makes more power than running stoich. Basically, there isn't enough time to burn droplets, and some fuel goes unburned, leaving "excess air" available. Running rich is a way of providing more droplets for this excess air that's available to burn it. Perfect mixtures have no droplets; all air and fuel is completely utilized during combustion, and therefore running rich would actually decrease power. But we can't prepare perfect mixtures yet... 2) Engine durability. Again, without ideal mixture preparation, running stoich at WOT is like running lean: longer burn rates, which raises combustion chamber temperatures, melting pistons, eroding plug electrodes and burning exhaust valves. Higher temps can lead to detonation(which can break ring lands) and can eventually lead to preignition(not the same as detonation; it's much worse). 3) Catalyst durability. Running stoich at WOT causes high cat temperatures for reasons cited above. High cat temperatures degrades their effectiveness over time, and we need them to last a really long time. Running rich drops exhaust temps and help the cats last longer. High mileage recalls are no fun for OEMs. Yes, rumors of EPA mandated WOT A/F ratios has OEMs worried, especially certain Asian manufactures who run extremely rich at WOT. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 15:05:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA21088; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:57:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail11.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA21083; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:57:07 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us4rmc.pko.dec.com by mail11.digital.com (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA01261; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:44:39 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA28337; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:35:37 -0500 Message-Id: <9602021435.AA28337@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us4rmc.enet; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:46:52 EST Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:46:52 EST To: diy_efi Apparently-To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Engine codes Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> At 12:43 AM 2/1/96 EST, Will McGonegal wrote: >> ... if anyone is still interested in trying to figure out the port >> themselves, I can pass along the information needed to set up the baud rate >> and the circuitry used in the RS232 interface. > Yes, I would be very interested in geting any information that might help me > extract data from my GM TPI ECM. Since I'm not interested in extracting > data from all GM computers ever made, this MIGHT be just what the doctor > ordered. > Thanks a million, > George M. Dailey gmd@tecinfo.com Rinda Technologies in Chicago has an excellent hardware/software package named DIACOM. Its basic price for a wide variety of GM and Chrysler (but not Ford :-( ) cars is $300-$400. The package connects a GM car's ALDL to an inexpensive laptop PC and displays all kinds of information from the car's serial data stream. Rinda is in Chicago, Illinois and their toll-free number is 800-888-4146. They charge $5.00 for a demonstration diskette and advertising. You can obtain this demonstration software on CompuServe. Begin with GO AUTO or GO AUTOS or GO CAR or GO CARS and get to the FOR TECHS ONLY forum. Look for files whose keywords include DIACOM -- there's probably only one of them. Download the file and run it on your PC. Unless you're a computer hacker who understands parallel port programming and data communication protocols, you're much better off buying the package from Rinda Technologies. I have no connection with this company other than being impressed by their demonstration software. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 15:44:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA21317; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:36:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA21280; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:36:05 -0500 Received: from dtnet12-231.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA11057; Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:35:36 EST Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:35:36 EST Message-Id: <9602021535.AA11057@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Holley ProJection 4Di ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Lately Holley released a digital programmable TBI system ProJection 4Di, > 1) Have anyone out there had any hand-on experience with this particular > system? > I am especially interested in views around tuneability and fuel economy. > Also information around which CPU they use are valuable. I have one on my supercharged Rx7. It is VERY tunable. So much so, that I am looking to put the car on a dyno to tune it. But my installation isn't typical. Holley supplies some base maps for V8 cars. > 2) Holley claims the system to be "Sequential", what does that mean for > a TBI system with only 4 injectors? I'm using the 700 cfm throttlebody with four 65 lb/hr injectors. There is one injector firing per ignition pulse. So each injector fires every fourth ignition pulse. I put some of the maps on my web page. If anyone is interested Email back to me and I'll give them the address. Later Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 16:19:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21486; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:07:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21481; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:07:13 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <169163-1>; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:07:07 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05433; Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:57:59 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma005428; Fri Feb 2 10:57:52 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17614; Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:57:21 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA26709; Fri, 2 Feb 96 11:06:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:06:04 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9602021606.AA26709@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Check your linkage! The reason I get more power when I back off, is that I have added a header, 3" exhaust, and K&N filter, so the engine breathes a lot easier than it did when calibrated at the factory. When not at WOT, the ECM adapts for the new flow, but at WOT it goes to the factory closed loop settings, which will be too lean. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 16:48:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21618; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:38:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ibmPCUG.CO.UK by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21612; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:37:35 -0500 Received: from kate.ibmpcug.co.uk by alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK id aa15639; 2 Feb 96 16:37 GMT Received: from turbo by kate.ibmpcug.co.uk id aa20749; 2 Feb 96 16:36 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:13:15 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <114@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi, diy_efi CC: sravet@bangate.compaq.com Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:13:15 Subject: Re: re: Re: Sensor Questions? From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > No, not unless the # of BLM cells (or adaptive locations) is equal to the > number of possible fuel map cells under those conditions .. so that EVERY > point in the fuel map is compensated .. to it's needed adjustment > > Jim > Not entirely sure why you would need the same number of adaptive (BLM) cells as main fuel map cells, I think you'll find that a bit of interpolation here and there will resolve any differences. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 16:48:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21606; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:37:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ibmPCUG.CO.UK by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21591; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:37:20 -0500 Received: from kate.ibmpcug.co.uk by alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK id aa15633; 2 Feb 96 16:37 GMT Received: from turbo by kate.ibmpcug.co.uk id aa20746; 2 Feb 96 16:36 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:13:15 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <114@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi, diy_efi CC: sravet@bangate.compaq.com Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:13:15 Subject: Re: re: Re: Sensor Questions? From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > No, not unless the # of BLM cells (or adaptive locations) is equal to the > number of possible fuel map cells under those conditions .. so that EVERY > point in the fuel map is compensated .. to it's needed adjustment > > Jim > Not entirely sure why you would need the same number of adaptive (BLM) cells as main fuel map cells, I think you'll find that a bit of interpolation here and there will resolve any differences. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 18:22:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA22186; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:04:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id NAA22181; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:04:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:04:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021804.NAA22181@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Tommy.Palm@oron.ds.sll.se Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Land Shark wrote: and Wouter de Waal: >'nother thing. This system can "limp home" if _everything_ is bust. I.e= =2E all >the sensors can be out (except the rpm info from the ignition) and >apparently you'll still get home. > >Sounds like black magic to me :-) > I drove my SAAB 9000Turbo for weeks w/o my MAF when i was lending the MA= F to a friend. A little jumpy idle and low mpg when cruising slow, fuellack fel= t at = >150km/h, no clogged sparkpluggs. The limphome system just gives a const= ant pulswith that is coolanttemp dependenant and triggers every 2 ignintion = pulse. I have used equal system w/ one extra TBI inj as limp home for all my DI= Y-EFI. It covers all errors as long as i still have fuelpress. No magic. Think = of diesel engines...thats more magic. Tommy = From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 18:43:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA22296; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:29:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elwood.probe.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA22291; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:28:59 -0500 Received: from dial17.probe.net (dial17.probe.net [206.28.166.17]) by elwood.probe.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA05697 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:28:56 -0600 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:28:56 -0600 Message-Id: <199602021828.MAA05697@elwood.probe.net> X-Sender: sparks@pop.probe.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: tom sparks Subject: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:38 AM 2/2/96 +0500, you wrote: You just can't beat measuring air consumption directly as opposed to guessing and inferring it. > I'm not discarding SD based systems outright. They work great if you have the time to map a system out, and they are less expensive. It just seemed to me that they have recently been touted as being capable of doing things things they simply cannot do as well as a MAF system. If you have the time and facilities for mapping and engine's air consumption, good for you. Most of us do not. > > OK, so the hot wire system seems to be the simple solution for measuring air consumption by an engine. If a person wanted to experiment with such a device, could you recommend an OEM part to start with? Also, I have a table somewhere of various OEM injectors and their lbs./hour ratings. Is there a similar list somewhere of the various OEM hotwire MAFs and their primary operating ranges? If anyone wants to send me any information about OEM parts that might prove useful to DIY-EFI people out there, (not just MAFs but things like inductive pick-ups, driver circuits, injectors, throttle bodies, etc.) I'll compile them and post them back to the list for the convenience of the group. Part numbers would be best but if you have just the applications, that might also work. Be as specific as possible with the application information, you know how parts guys are sticklers for specifics. Best Regards, Tom Sparks From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 19:15:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA22559; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:01:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA22554; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:01:17 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com (lndshrk@[204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA28181 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:00:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:00:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602021900.MAA28181@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 04:13 PM 2/2/96, you wrote: >Not entirely sure why you would need the same number of adaptive >(BLM) cells as main fuel map cells, I think you'll find that a bit >of interpolation here and there will resolve any differences. You need them because ... (tech weenie geek hat on!) 1) The relationship is a discrete function, of 2nd order to rpm and 1st to MAP (geek hat off) 2) Changing any accessory will very likely change said functions SHAPE from the stock shape ... and unless EACH point in the fueling map is countered by an individual correction, the "interpolation" will be off .. 3) Worst of all, since EGO feedback is off under higher loads/rpms and WOT, you'll never fill in those BLM cells anyway :( Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 19:38:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA22670; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:19:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA22665; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:19:37 -0500 Received: from ptp4.tecinfo.com (ptp4.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.226]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA02156 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:13:58 -0600 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:13:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199602021913.NAA02156@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Engine codes Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>> At 12:43 AM 2/1/96 EST, Will McGonegal wrote: >>> ... if anyone is still interested in trying to figure out the port >>> themselves, I can pass along the information needed to set up the baud rate >>> and the circuitry used in the RS232 interface. > George M. Dailey gmd@tecinfo.com wrote: >> Yes, I would be very interested. At 09:46 AM 2/2/96 EST, Marll McDonald wrote: >Rinda Technologies in Chicago has an excellent hardware/software package >named DIACOM. Its basic price for a wide variety of GM and Chrysler >(but not Ford :-( ).... George's response was: Does Diacom have and any idea about their massive following? The latest J.C. Witney catalog #586k (inside cover page) has an Auto Xray XP240 scanner for $280 complete, no PC needed. The illustration shows a two line display (32 characters). Interface cables are available for GM (king of autos), Ford :-}, and that other car maker ... Chrysler for only $29 each. I do not own one, and I don't know anybody that owns one. I'd be willing to bet that it works as advertised. I neglected to tell you folks out in DIY FI land, what my true reason was for wanting to read ALDL data. Here's my confession. I have constructed a mid engine, rear wheel driven sports car from scratch. The engine is a '85 PFI 3.8L Buick V6. The plan is to transmit the ALDl data to a dedicated PC, peramanently mounted in the car and connected to a small VGA monitor. Software would convert the data to usefull information that would be displayed on the monitor. Boom, no additional instruments needed and a wealth of data on demand. The car (Bianca) was designed to house a PC. Think of her as a streached Lamborghini Contach with all the room and comfort of a full size '70's Olds. Data logging would also be utilized. The PC would also control some BODY functions. It's not that I'm to cheap to by Diacom or XP240 (I just might by the XP240) but, if I'm going to make this work I need to get some type of simple PC to ALDL communication established. Any help on the software end would be much needed. thanks' George M. Dailey gmd@tecinfo.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 21:00:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA23266; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:46:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA23261; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:46:51 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 02 Feb 96 15:45:50 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12606; Fri, 2 Feb 96 15:49:16 EST Message-Id: <9602022049.AA12606@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:57:36 +0000 Subject: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: tom sparks > OK, so the hot wire system seems to be the simple solution for measuring air > consumption by an engine. If a person wanted to experiment with such a > device, could you recommend an OEM part to start with? A list of various cars that have various types of MAF censors, (Especially the hot-whatever types.) would be very useful when junk-yard prospecting. If you really want to experiment, there were articles in both EDN and Electronic Design of air flow meters using common miniature light bulbs with the glass removed as the hot wire sensing element. You could build either one for less than $15. --- David Parrish From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 22:27:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA23611; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:12:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA23606; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:12:45 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0QO7LHM4W938Y00@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <31128BEB@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:10:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) To: "diy_efi (postings)" Cc: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Message-id: <31128BEB@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 88 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > OK, so the hot wire system seems to be the simple solution for measuring air > consumption by an engine. If a person wanted to experiment with such a > device, could you recommend an OEM part to start with? It would be great if we had some hard data on the web site regarding the calibration curves of various MAF sensors. Until then, maybe start a general info section. Here's my input (off the top of my head). Most of this info I have read in the SAE publications from the last 15 years. I paid a bunch of money for the back issues... Type #1 - Bosch I think the first ones to develop a MAF sensor for auto applications were Bosch. It consists of a thin platinum wire in the full air flow stream. The output is analog with a non-linear characteristic. To clean the wire of dirt build up, a "burnoff" voltage is sent to the wire to heat it up red hot for a couple of seconds. This is done after the engine is turned off. This type of MAF is common on many European cars. Type #2 - Hitachi Bypass (analog output) Hitachi later developed a MAF that measures a portion of the entire air flow ("bypass type"). The advantages include less dirt build up and damage immunity from intake backfiring. A disadvantage is that the reverse air flow is not measured, so if there is a lot of pulsation at the meter, it will cause errors (?). The hot wire (or hot film) does not require a "burn off" over its lifetime. The output is analog and non-linear like the Bosch type. This type is used on many Ford cars, including the Mustang 5.0L engine (models 1987 up). It can handle *at least* 210 hp. Others have mentioned that it can handle up to 300 hp in stock form, and many speed shops sell upgraded units that can flow much more. The last time I checked with Ford, this sensor cost $150. This was the cheapest (new) MAF that I could find. Other types were $300 or more. Type #3 - Hitachi Bypass (digital PWM output) One of the other Japanese manufacturers (Mitsubishi? Hitachi?) wrote a SAE paper on a MAF that has a pulse width modulated (PWM) digital output. The sensor was the same (hot wire), but the electronics were run in the switching mode. Advantages include lower power dissipation, simple interface to the ECU (no analog to digital converter required, just measure the duty cycle), and less susceptible to electrical interference (think of FM radio compared to AM radio). I don't know which cars have this type. I assume that the pulse width output will be non-linear, the same characteristic of the analog output types (#1 and #2). Type #4 ??? - Karman Vortex (is this really a MAF?) Another type of air flow sensor is the "Karman Vortex" type, but I'm not sure if this is a *true* mass air flow meter (ie. no compensation needed for air temp or altitude). Apparently, these are used in the Mitsubishi's, and have a digital output that varies *linearly* with increasing air flow (note that the type #3 discussed above varies the duty cycle, with fixed frequency). The Karman Vortex type is also used in the Toyota Supra Turbo, from years 1988 thru 1991 (?). I'm not sure what the newer Supras use. It's interesting to note that Toyota used this type only in the Supra Turbo, when all of their other cars sold in the US with EFI used the standard trap door type. Why? Here is some more info on the one used in Mitsubishi's, quoting Peter Wales of Superchips: "The Karman (how do you spell that?) Vortex system used in the Mitsubishis is very linear. I tried to find a limit on it by driving around with it stuck out of the window and I met no limit (broke a few speed limits though). "The Starion air mass meter was fitted to every Starion and Conquest ever made anywhere in the world from 83 to whenever they stopped. I believe a lot of other Mitsubish turbo cars were fitted with it as well, all from the same era. In a junk yard you need to remove the whole airbox and disconnect it from the loom. I believe the air box is fixed with 2 bolts through the fender wall. "The air mass meter will give out a train of pulses which increases in speed as more air is drawn though it. In theory each certain amount of air requires a certain amount of fuel, so you count the number of pulses and give a squirt from the injector. Then it doesn't matter what the engine is doing, if it is using air, it is getting the mixture in the correct proportions. This will run the car fine." Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 2 22:31:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA23659; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:24:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA23654; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:24:00 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0QOMMVVG0938ANZ@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <31128EC2@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:22:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: re: Re: Sensor Questions? To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <31128EC2@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >If you really want to experiment, there were articles in both EDN and >Electronic Design of air flow meters using common miniature light bulbs >with the glass removed as the hot wire sensing element. You could build >either one for less than $15. Wow, this is taking diy to the extreme. I would recommend using available MAFs from the OEMs, they have already worked out all of the accuracy, durability and reliability issues. IMHO. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 3 03:51:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA24713; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 03:36:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA24708; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:36:08 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:08:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 19:35:58 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9602030335.utk23109@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >"Oh man, now I'm confused. MAF isn't good as the basis for fuel injection >alone, since the amount of air past the MAF sensor isn't necessarily the >amount of air into the engine. Remember the plenum stores air, so a sudden >increase in the amount of required air will draw a vacuum on the plenum before >the MAF actually sees the increase in airflow." Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this "sudden increase in the amount of required air" that is going to draw a vacuum? About the only thing that I can think of would be going down a steep hill and then closing the throttle. At this point, you need a leaner mixture anyway. While air does have mass, this will primarily cause a delay from when you open the throttle. >You are absolutely right. That's whys carburetors had pump shots. EFI systems >(even SD based) have acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of >throttle transients. That's one of the main reasons for using a TPS(throttle >position sensor) on hot wire MAF engines. SD systems are NOT "perfectly >capable" of learning about engine mods which affect volumetric efficiency and >never will be because of the way they work. You have to teach them. Part >throttle learning from O2 sensors doesn't work "perfect Definitely agree on the need for an acceleration enrichment. And the need for a TPS sensor. Only a do believe that both MAF (mass air flow) and SD (speed, density) systems need them. >I'm not discarding SD based systems outright. They work great if you have >the time to map a system out, and they are less expensive. It just seemed to >me that they have recently been touted as being capable of doing things things >they simply cannot do as well as a MAF system. If you have the time and >facilities for mapping and engine's air consumption, good for you. Most of us >do not. Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it is on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec flowing through me". How long you need to keep the injectors open is also dependent on the size of the injectors (and the number). Both systems must be calibrated. But I do agree that the MAF system will take less time. Just my two cents worth, so all those in opposition, fire away! Clint From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 3 05:37:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA24927; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 05:26:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA24922; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 00:25:59 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (lndshrk@slc9.xmission.com [204.228.136.9]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA25268 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:25:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602030525.WAA25268@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 22:26:01 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: BOSCH MAF Sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 14:11 2/2/96 -0800, you wrote: >Type #1 - Bosch Actually there are TWO types of Bosch MAF .. A) Hot WIRE Sensors (HWS) which require burnoff and are generally a pain in the butt top use! B) Hot Film Sensors (HFM) which only need 12v and gnd to produce a nice nifty signal as an f(Q) where Q=airmass in kg/hr I like B (the HFM) myself! Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 3 17:27:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA26094; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 17:16:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA26089; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:16:17 -0500 From: marchil@ibm.net Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA45080 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 17:16:15 GMT Received: from slip129-37-164-80.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.164.80) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma9gkDFW; Sat Feb 3 17:16:01 1996 Received: by localhost (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.9)/1.0um) id AA0012; Sat, 03 Feb 96 11:58:48 -0800 Message-Id: <9602031958.AA0012@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 11:36:38 To: diy_efi Subject: Still more Questions .... X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <10_55_1_823365400> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have more question on MAF sensors The MAF on OEM's is always plaed very fare from the throtle body by doing this we have to reaslise that we have the intake + the air hose that act as a resevoir after the metered air has passed the MAF, would it not be better placed as close as posible to the intake ??? And also why not just put it after the T-Body and calculate the real air density, since usulay wy have coulant heating the the T-Body. And just to srew things around on super/torbo charged engins the T-Body is after the compressor by placing it there we have to add a bypass valve on the intaketo reduce the chance of over boost when the trotle plates close sudenly. By putting the T-Body beafore the compressor we do not nead the bypass valve but the compressor must have sealedbearing shafts to keep from sucking the oil from them when the intake is at a vacum, Would there be any other ploblems ???? //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@IBM.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 4 03:00:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA27414; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:30:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA27409; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:30:10 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm5-10.magicnet.net [206.104.207.139]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA28012; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:30:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199602040230.VAA28012@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 22:27:17 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Still more Questions .... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:36 AM 2/3/96, diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >I have more question on MAF sensors > >The MAF on OEM's is always plaed very fare from the throtle body by doing this we have to >reaslise that we have the intake + the air hose that act as a resevoir after the metered >air has passed the MAF, would it not be better placed as close as posible to the intake >??? >And also why not just put it after the T-Body and calculate the real air density, since >usulay wy have coulant heating the the T-Body. > >And just to srew things around on super/torbo charged engins the T-Body is after the >compressor by placing it there we have to add a bypass valve on the intaketo reduce the >chance of over boost when the trotle plates close sudenly. >By putting the T-Body beafore the compressor we do not nead the bypass valve but the >compressor must have sealedbearing shafts to keep from sucking the oil from them when the >intake is at a vacum, Would there be any other ploblems ???? > > >//---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// Marchil@IBM.NET >// Alain Marchildon >// 1271 Bernard West >// Outremont, Quebec Canada >// H2V 1V8 > > Do they have spell checkers up there? Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 4 03:40:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA27511; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 03:32:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA27506; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:31:58 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:17:03 -0800 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 19:31:47 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9602040331.utk19531@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Still more Questions .... To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I have more question on MAF sensors > >The MAF on OEM's is always placed very fare from the throtle body by doing >this we have to realiase that we have the intake + the air hose that act as >a resevoir after the metered air has passed the MAF, would it not be better >placed as close as posible to the intake ??? And also why not just put it >after the T-Body and calculate the real air density, since usually we have >coulant heating the the T-Body. One of the Mustang magagazines did a bit of hopping up on a 95 Mustang GT. They added a Paxten type supercharger (exactly like a Turbo on the compressor side, only driven from the crankshaft instead of the exhaust). After the hop-up, the car had a very rough idle and just didn't run as smoothly as it did before. They played with the fuel pressure (to richen the mixture), but nothing really helped. Until they moved the MAF sensor back to were it originally was (about 30cm infront of the throttle body). With the kit they had used, the MAF was placed infront of the supercharger. This was almost two meters (about six feet for the U.S.A.!) from the throttle body. After they changed it back, the motor ran great (and made serious HP due to the blower!). >And just to screw things around on super/turbo charged engins the T-Body is >after the compressor by placing it there we have to add a bypass valve on >the intaketo reduce the chance of over boost when the trotle plates close >sudenly. By putting the T-Body beafore the compressor we do not nead the >bypass valve but the compressor must have sealedbearing shafts to keep from >sucking the oil from them when the intake is at a vacum, Would there be any >other ploblems ???? > >//-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >// Marchil@IBM.NET >// Alain Marchildon >// 1271 Bernard West >// Outremont, Quebec Canada >// H2V 1V8 Basically, a little bit of air storage after the MAF doesn't hurt drivablitly. A lot does. Due to resonant frequencies, it would also appear that a small diameter, but long, tube would be worse that a large diameter, but short, one. The reason being the resonant frequencies of the long, thin tube being lower than for the short, large diameter tube. Need more experimentation on this. Clint ccorbin@intel7.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 4 22:10:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29351; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:54:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29346; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:54:46 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id QAA24743; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:55:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602042155.QAA24743@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 16:48:28 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Because of the problems that some of you had when I tried to send this as a file, I decided to make it a standard message and to send it that way. Please send me any additions/corrections so I can keep this up to date... After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel and IgnManagement)US$1,500 (6 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - 550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Engine Management Systems Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 4 22:37:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA29444; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:29:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lynx.cbr.dit.csiro.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA29438; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:28:40 -0500 Received: from polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au by lynx.cbr.dit.csiro.au (8.6.12/1.06S) id JAA19971; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:28:37 +1100 From: gavin@cbr.dit.csiro.au (Gavin Walker) Received: by polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au (8.6.12/1.07C) id JAA04777; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:28:35 +1100 Message-Id: <199602042228.JAA04777@polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au> Subject: Re: Still more Questions .... To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:28:34 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9602040331.utk19531@INTEL7.intel.com> from "Clinton L. Corbin" at Feb 3, 96 07:31:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 735 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >The MAF on OEM's is always placed very fare from the throtle body by doing > >this we have to realiase that we have the intake + the air hose that act as > >a resevoir after the metered air has passed the MAF, would it not be better > >placed as close as posible to the intake ??? And also why not just put it > >after the T-Body and calculate the real air density, since usually we have > >coulant heating the the T-Body. You don't want the MAF too close to the Throttle body due to the turbulence generated by they throttle. -- _--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker / \ | \_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin.walker@dit.csiro.au v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 00:19:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA29702; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:10:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA29692; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:10:15 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA00479; Mon, 5 Feb 96 08:11:37 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823537098 Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:18:18 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:18:18 Message-Id: <9601058235.AA823537098@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On the subject of the GM IAC(idle air controller) for the TPI engines. Does anyone know of a replacement, working of sensing the temperature or similar, ie. some sort of bi-metal spring system. The problem is that I need some sort of idle stabilisation on a TPI system but the ECU does not allow for control of the standard IAC. Is it possible to leave the IAC off all together? Any ideas will be appreciated. Preferably the parts should be available of Australian cars, since US parts are to expensive over here. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 00:51:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA29801; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:40:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA29796; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:40:12 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id TAA10704; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:40:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602050040.TAA10704@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 19:33:55 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Ford MAF sensor X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It is my understanding that the Ford E8ZZ-12B579-A sensor is rated at 891 kg/hr air flow or approx. 230 HP max...Does Ford have a similar sensor in the 110 - 130 hp range?? Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 02:01:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA00283; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:51:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA00278; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:51:15 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id SAA00116 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:29:07 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sun, 4 Feb 96 16:33 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sun, 4 Feb 96 16:26:11 EDT Message-Id: <9601042326.AA17951@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: more MAF sensor types To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 16:26:09 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: ; from "Zublin, Bryan" at Feb 2, 96 2:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bryan Zublin wrote: > It would be great if we had some hard data on the web site regarding the > calibration curves of various MAF sensors. Until then, maybe start a > general info section. This would indeed be a useful resource. I'll try to fill you in with some more data on MAF sensors I've uncovered while doing research on the 555 EFI thingie, and add some to Bryan's list, after I have put it all together... Meanwhile, a couple of useful references I have found so far: Domestic Electronic Fuel Injection and Computer Systems Frederick D. Allen Prentice-hall ISBN # 0-13-218256-4 Pub 1988 This is a good general reference which describes sensors, ECU functions, etc, and give some troubleshooting info. Covers most systems used by the Big 3, but lacks technical (read "electronic") detail. Obviously written for the Engine Service Technician. The next general reference is actually several references. These are aftermarket parts suppliers catalogs, such as Carter/Federal Mogul, Standard, Blue Streak, Echlin, etc, who all manufacture replacement parts for ignition and EFI systems. These contain valuable references to make, model, and year, as well as in some cases OEM part numbers, etc. It is sometimes interesting to note how many models are covered by a few replacement part #'s, indicating that they all function similarly. A lot of stuff differs only in physical appearance, (perhaps an elbow on one MAF, but an identical one without an elbow, etc.) They generally also contain pictures of all the devices, cross references, etc. which are invaluable in selecting a goodie to fit your application. You can also, with a little perserverence, backtrack from some known application to find other makes, models, and years which use the same device. This is useful in junkyard searches. Again, however, they lack any technical specifications whatsoever, which is a pain in the kister. I got mine from my local auto parts store, I just went in and asked if they had any outdated catalogs kicking around. Ended up with a stack about a foot high for free. You could also probably request them direct from the manufacturer. regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 02:23:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA00386; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:11:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA00381; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:11:20 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA14691 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 4 Feb 96 19:11:18 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA16180; Sun, 4 Feb 96 19:11:17 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA21953; Sun, 4 Feb 96 20:11:16 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04654; Sun, 4 Feb 96 20:04:54 CST Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 20:04:54 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602050204.AA04654@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dan, On the IAC, I found the unit fitted in the BMW to fail in the OPEN mode. It allowed too much air to enter the engine (at idle the engine would rev to over 1200 rpm... the ECU sensing the engine would cut the fuel - dropping the rpm back, which the ECU would respond with a fuel flow again... ). Quick fix was a penny with a 1/8" hole drilled in it. This would limit amount of air the unit could pass, preventing the engine from doing its VROOM, VROOM trick. Long term fix was to repair the VDO box. The FET on the output stage was not fitted with a heat sink. With excessive heat and age the solder joint would fail. [Oh, I slipped off the hose to the IAC, fitted the -ahem copper slug- with a hole in it next to the IAC metal flange, and slipped the hose back in place]. Cheers, Tom Walter Austin, TX. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 04:12:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA00962; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:57:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00957; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:57:26 -0500 Received: from port51.fishnet.net (port51.fishnet.net [205.216.133.251]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09571 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:57:12 GMT Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:57:12 GMT Message-Id: <199602041957.TAA09571@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Ford MAF sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 07:33 PM 2/4/96 -0500, you wrote: >It is my understanding that the Ford E8ZZ-12B579-A sensor is rated at 891 kg/hr air flow or approx. 230 HP max...Does Ford have a similar sensor in the 110 - 130 hp range?? > >Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC >('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) check out the unit Electromotive uses on their Jeep kits Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 06:16:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01431; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:58:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01426; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:58:36 -0500 Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA02541; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:58:34 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:58:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199602050558.VAA02541@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: IAC To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > > > > On the subject of the GM IAC(idle air controller) for the TPI engines. > Does anyone know of a replacement, working of sensing the temperature > or similar, ie. some sort of bi-metal spring system. The problem is > that I need some sort of idle stabilisation on a TPI system but the > ECU does not allow for control of the standard IAC. > > Is it possible to leave the IAC off all together? > > Any ideas will be appreciated. Preferably the parts should be > available of Australian cars, since US parts are to expensive over > here. > > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > the iac is just a little stepping motor gm bottoms it shut at start and then backs it off a a certain number of steps to control idle mixture air and also as a deceleration valve during throttle release closing. what sort of ecm are you using? ford uses a solonoid thats pwm to do the same thing but ive heard the gm stepper works better and smother as long as the valve lead screw is kept clean (i own a iac gm ). maybe i could design a little gaget using a pic16 up. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 07:30:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA01829; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:15:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA01824; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:15:21 -0500 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Mon, 5 Feb 96 08:14:34 +0100 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 5 Feb 96 8:14:34 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 5 Feb 96 8:14:23 +0100 Received: from GNF43M by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 5 Feb 96 8:14:17 +0100 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:14:17 MET Subject: newcomer Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <1B05E0B4857@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Haaallooo, i am an absolute E-mail and www. newcomer, so i dont know, how to get the mailing-list. Maybe you can tell me something about it. Thanks a lot Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 08:00:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA01862; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:45:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA01857; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:45:11 -0500 Received: from ccii.co.za [196.3.224.65] by aztec.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tjLam-000aoSC; Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:44 EET Received: from wrm.ccii.co.za by ccii.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tjLVE-0002CAC; Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:38 GMT+0200 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:38 GMT+0200 X-Sender: wrm@gateway.ccii.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Land Shark From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Cc: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >So Land Shark a.k.a. Jim sez: >>Actually, the Uno is remarkably driveable. Handles _really_ well. Never had >>any problems at all, except this flat spot that crept in recently. > > OK, well .. let's fix that flatspot ... Have you checked the throttlepot?? > Now here lies the crunch. The manual I have sez "don't remove that pot, it's factory adjusted". I can't get a new pot, or even a new pot attached to a throttle body (Which I would need if the thing is factory adjusted). I'll have to buy the whole thing, including idle servo and injector. Now I'm sure that'll fix the flat spot, but I can get a carburettor for a third of the price. Lessee, R8000 = 200 cases of beer, what can _you_ buy for the equivalent of 200 cases of beer? Probably a new car :-) So if I remove the pot and bugger up the adjustment, I'm f*--ed. So now I'm trying to figure out whether that is the culprit. If I open the thing and find that the pot's OK, and then can't get it back together again, Hooo Boy, probably kill myself :-) Wouter -- Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 CCII Systems Kenilworth, South Africa From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 09:58:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA02001; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:42:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.vs-ulm.dasa.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA01996; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:42:00 -0500 Received: from VS2E2/SpoolDir by magic.vs-ulm.dasa.de (Mercury 1.21); 5 Feb 96 10:39:50 -0100 Received: from SpoolDir by VS2E2 (Mercury 1.21); 5 Feb 96 10:39:50 -0100 From: "Joachim Glasstetter" To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:39:45 +0000 Subject: Re: newcomer Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <5DB1CF01E5@magic.vs-ulm.dasa.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hans, was meinst Du mit mailing list? Du willst dien bisherigen Briefverkehr der EFI Liste haben, odaer was? Bei der EFI Liste bist Du doch schon angemeldet oder? > Haaallooo, > i am an absolute E-mail and www. newcomer, so i dont know, how to get > the mailing-list. Maybe you can tell me something about it. Joachim From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 11:20:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA02151; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:01:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA02146; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:01:07 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA04466; Mon, 5 Feb 96 18:48:31 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823567008 Mon, 05 Feb 96 16:36:48 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 16:36:48 Message-Id: <9601058235.AA823567008@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm using a Wolf 3D system which doesn't allow for control of the standard IAC, thus I was thinking of either using: 1. the old style solenoid switch that opens the throttle a bit when power is applied. Requires the original IAC mounting hole to be blocked off. 2. a temperature sensing bi-metal type air by-pass valve as used on many Nissans. Requires blocking of the original IAC mounting hole also. 3. Nothing at all. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: IAC Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 05/2/96 4:25 PM You wrote: > > > > On the subject of the GM IAC(idle air controller) for the TPI engines. > Does anyone know of a replacement, working of sensing the temperature > or similar, ie. some sort of bi-metal spring system. The problem is > that I need some sort of idle stabilisation on a TPI system but the > ECU does not allow for control of the standard IAC. > > Is it possible to leave the IAC off all together? > > Any ideas will be appreciated. Preferably the parts should be > available of Australian cars, since US parts are to expensive over > here. > > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > the iac is just a little stepping motor gm bottoms it shut at start and then backs it off a a certain number of steps to control idle mixture air and also as a deceleration valve during throttle release closing. what sort of ecm are you using? ford uses a solonoid thats pwm to do the same thing but ive heard the gm stepper works better and smother as long as the valve lead screw is kept clean (i own a iac gm ). maybe i could design a little gaget using a pic16 up. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 14:12:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA02485; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:58:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02480; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:58:22 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA03825 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:54:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051354.AA03825@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:54:08 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:54:08 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Still more Questions .... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 03 Feb 96 11:36:38." <9602031958.AA0012@localhost> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:57:59 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have more question on MAF sensors > > The MAF on OEM's is always plaed very fare from the throtle body > by doing this we have to > reaslise that we have the intake + the air hose that act as a > resevoir after the metered > air has passed the MAF, would it not be better placed as close > as posible to the intake > ??? The "reservoir" problem is definitely a disadvantage of placing a mass air flow sensor considerably upstream of the intake valves. However, there are advantages of this placement too. The sensing element is usually small compared to the full diameter of the sensor. A relationship between the local flow and the bulk flow is necessary. The more well-developed the flow is, the more accurate and robust such a relationship will be. Also, the flow is not steady, but pulsating. The flow rate varies due to the cyclic nature of the engine's induction. Placing a sensor upstream helps to isolate it from the pulsations. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 14:50:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA02909; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:42:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ashley.jbc.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02904; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:42:37 -0500 Received: from pcpaul.jbc.edu (pcpaul.jbc.edu [198.146.154.48]) by ashley.jbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA30282 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:44:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:44:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051444.JAA30282@ashley.jbc.edu> X-Sender: paul@ashley.jbc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Paul Beam Subject: Re: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:18 AM 2/5/96, you wrote: > Is it possible to leave the IAC off all together? You could probably do that, but it might not idle well in cold weather or with the A/C on. You would just have to let enough air into the system so that it will idle under all conditions. If you have any kind of solenoid valve, you could use that to let more air in when the weather is cold or accessories are on. You can let air in anywhere in the intake -- even a vacuum line. It's a miracle their are more problems with "unintended acceleration" due to a vacuum leak. Some other manufacturers use a pulse width modulated solenoid to do the same function. Hope this helps, Paul R Paul Beam Computer Systems Engineer Johnson Bible College 7900 Johnson Drive Knoxville, TN 37998 (423) 573-4517 (423) 579-2337 fax From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 14:56:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA03087; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:51:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from zaphod.develcon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA03077; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:51:10 -0500 Received: from wayneb.develcon.com (wayneb.develcon.com [198.169.2.58]) by zaphod.develcon.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16753 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:50:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199602051450.IAA16753@zaphod.develcon.com> X-Sender: wayneb@zaphod.develcon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 08:53:10 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Wayne Braun Subject: Re: Bosch Mono-Jetronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:38 AM 2/5/96 GMT+0200, you wrote: >>So Land Shark a.k.a. Jim sez: > >>>Actually, the Uno is remarkably driveable. Handles _really_ well. Never had >>>any problems at all, except this flat spot that crept in recently. >> >> OK, well .. let's fix that flatspot ... Have you checked the throttlepot?? >> >Now here lies the crunch. The manual I have sez "don't remove that pot, it's >factory adjusted". I can't get a new pot, or even a new pot attached to a >throttle body (Which I would need if the thing is factory adjusted). I'll >have to buy the whole thing, including idle servo and injector. Now I'm sure >that'll fix the flat spot, but I can get a carburettor for a third of the >price. Lessee, R8000 = 200 cases of beer, what can _you_ buy for the >equivalent of 200 cases of beer? Probably a new car :-) > >So if I remove the pot and bugger up the adjustment, I'm f*--ed. So now I'm >trying to figure out whether that is the culprit. If I open the thing and >find that the pot's OK, and then can't get it back together again, Hooo Boy, >probably kill myself :-) > > >Wouter >-- >Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 >Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 >CCII Systems >Kenilworth, South Africa > > That doesn't sound very good at all. The throttle position sensor ( TPS ) is almost an annual replacement item for me. Severe weather will do that sort of thing but also the TPS in the Nissan Sentra ( Throttle body injection ) is a rather poor design. I took one apart and you can easily see the throttle position for the speeds you normally drive. Just look for the dips in the track where it is worn out. It usually takes me longer to convince the dealer whats wrong that for them to fix it. Wayne Braun Wayne Braun Product Support Develcon Electronics Email: Wayne.Braun@Develcon.com HTTP://WWW.Develcon.com Phone: (306) 933-3300 or 1-800-667-9333 FAX: (306)978-8860 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 15:14:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA03283; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:05:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vhf.dataradio.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03278; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:04:55 -0500 Received: from dri.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by vhf.dataradio.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id KAA21647 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:05:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051505.KAA21647@vhf.dataradio.com> Received: by dri (UUXFER v1.4d2); Mon 05 Feb 1996 10:04:55 EST From: "Mark Hillier" To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:04:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Still more Questions .... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >I have more question on MAF sensors > > > >The MAF on OEM's is always plaed very fare from the throtle body by doing > this we have to > >reaslise that we have the intake + the air hose that act as a resevoir > after the metered > >air has passed the MAF, would it not be better placed as close as posible > to the intake > >??? > >And also why not just put it after the T-Body and calculate the real air > density, since > >usulay wy have coulant heating the the T-Body. > > > >And just to srew things around on super/torbo charged engins the T-Body is > after the > >compressor by placing it there we have to add a bypass valve on the > intaketo reduce the > >chance of over boost when the trotle plates close sudenly. > >By putting the T-Body beafore the compressor we do not nead the bypass > valve but the > >compressor must have sealedbearing shafts to keep from sucking the oil from > them when the > >intake is at a vacum, Would there be any other ploblems ???? > > > > > >//---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >// Marchil@IBM.NET > >// Alain Marchildon > >// 1271 Bernard West > >// Outremont, Quebec Canada > >// H2V 1V8 > > > Do they have spell checkers up there? > > Peter Wales > President Superchips Inc > Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" > Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com > Peter, with all due respect, one of the biggest problems the U.S. has is that it is blisfully ignorant of other cultures. English is not the only language spoken in the world. In fact, I believe it is *third*. A quick look at this guy's name and location will tell you that this guy's mother tongue is French. If you spoke French you would understand why he spells like that in English. I thinks he did quite well....you understood what he was trying to say -right ? How about some slack ? Mark Hillier mhillier@dataradio.com Montreal, Canada From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 15:39:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA03418; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:29:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03413; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:29:09 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id KAA25449; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:29:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602051529.KAA25449@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:22:49 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Revised #8 and added #10 After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel and IgnManagement)US$1,500 (6 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - 550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@aems.com.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 16:42:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA03884; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:31:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03879; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:31:42 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id LAA07556; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:30:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602051630.LAA07556@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 11:24:01 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Revised #1 and added comparision list After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) UD$459 (6 Cyl) US$499 (8 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) US$689 (6 Cyl) US$724 (8 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel&Ign Mgt.) US$1,500 (6 Cyl) US$1,550 (12 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) US$1,029 (6 Cyl) US$1,069 (8 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - 550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@aems.com.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 Manufacturer #1 #2 #3 Model TEC II E6 74040A PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline yes yes no Inj. drivers 2 8 4 Additional drivers yes($) Seq. Inj. yes($) no yes($) Fuel Map yes yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 16 Prog. points/RPM 8 8 Total prog. points 64 256 Warm-up Map yes yes yes Idle control yes(GM ICM) no yes(GM ICM) Data logging yes($) yes yes Speed density yes yes yes Mass Air Flow yes($) no no EGO - Closed loop yes yes yes Gen. purpose output yes yes Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no yes yes Ign. map points 64 yes Detonation sensor yes no yes Manufacturer #6 #7 Model Projection SDS PC I/O no no Prog. offline no Inj. drivers Additional drivers Seq. Inj. Fuel Map # fuel maps by RPM Prog. points/RPM Total prog. points Warm-up Map Idle control Data logging Speed density Mass Air Flow EGO - Closed loop Gen. purpose output Ignition control Ign. amp. needed Ign. map points Detonation sensor Manufacturer #8 #8 #8 Model Ign. Mgt. Clubmans Eng. Mgt. Sys. PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline Inj. drivers n/a 1 4 Additional drivers n/a yes (+#) yes (+#) Seq. Inj. n/a no yes Fuel Map n/a yes yes # fuel maps by RPM n/a 16 16 Prog. points/RPM n/a 24 24 Total prog. points n/a 384 384 Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a yes (?) Data logging yes yes yes Speed density n/a yes yes Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a no yes Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no no no Ign. map points 384 384 384 Detonation sensor no no yes Manufacturer #10 #10 Model Wolf2D Wold3D PC I/O no no Prog. offline Inj. drivers Additional drivers Seq. Inj. Fuel Map # fuel maps by RPM Prog. points/RPM Total prog. points Warm-up Map Idle control Data logging Speed density Mass Air Flow EGO - Closed loop Gen. purpose output Ignition control no yes Ign. amp. needed Ign. map points Detonation sensor Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 16:43:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA03868; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:30:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA03863; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:30:21 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id LAA12909; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:30:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602051630.LAA12909@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 11:23:55 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Revised #1 and added comparision list After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) UD$459 (6 Cyl) US$499 (8 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) US$689 (6 Cyl) US$724 (8 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel&Ign Mgt.) US$1,500 (6 Cyl) US$1,550 (12 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) US$1,029 (6 Cyl) US$1,069 (8 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - 550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@aems.com.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 Manufacturer #1 #2 #3 Model TEC II E6 74040A PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline yes yes no Inj. drivers 2 8 4 Additional drivers yes($) Seq. Inj. yes($) no yes($) Fuel Map yes yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 16 Prog. points/RPM 8 8 Total prog. points 64 256 Warm-up Map yes yes yes Idle control yes(GM ICM) no yes(GM ICM) Data logging yes($) yes yes Speed density yes yes yes Mass Air Flow yes($) no no EGO - Closed loop yes yes yes Gen. purpose output yes yes Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no yes yes Ign. map points 64 yes Detonation sensor yes no yes Manufacturer #6 #7 Model Projection SDS PC I/O no no Prog. offline no Inj. drivers Additional drivers Seq. Inj. Fuel Map # fuel maps by RPM Prog. points/RPM Total prog. points Warm-up Map Idle control Data logging Speed density Mass Air Flow EGO - Closed loop Gen. purpose output Ignition control Ign. amp. needed Ign. map points Detonation sensor Manufacturer #8 #8 #8 Model Ign. Mgt. Clubmans Eng. Mgt. Sys. PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline Inj. drivers n/a 1 4 Additional drivers n/a yes (+#) yes (+#) Seq. Inj. n/a no yes Fuel Map n/a yes yes # fuel maps by RPM n/a 16 16 Prog. points/RPM n/a 24 24 Total prog. points n/a 384 384 Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a yes (?) Data logging yes yes yes Speed density n/a yes yes Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a no yes Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no no no Ign. map points 384 384 384 Detonation sensor no no yes Manufacturer #10 #10 Model Wolf2D Wold3D PC I/O no no Prog. offline Inj. drivers Additional drivers Seq. Inj. Fuel Map # fuel maps by RPM Prog. points/RPM Total prog. points Warm-up Map Idle control Data logging Speed density Mass Air Flow EGO - Closed loop Gen. purpose output Ignition control no yes Ign. amp. needed Ign. map points Detonation sensor Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 18:06:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA04236; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:49:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA04231; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:49:08 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0ULVD2GQ8938JSY@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 05 Feb 1996 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <311642D4@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Mon, 05 Feb 1996 09:48:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 09:48:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: Ford MAF sensor To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <311642D4@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 16 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >It is my understanding that the Ford E8ZZ-12B579-A sensor is rated at 891 >kg/hr air flow or approx. 230 HP max...Does Ford have a similar sensor in the >110 - 130 hp range?? Try the 4 cylinder Ford engines, maybe the 1.9L (?) engine in the Mercury Tracer (same as Ford Escort?). Or if you want a little more flow capability, try the (standard horsepower) 6 cylinder engines. The Taurus SHO makes over 200 hp, so it's MAF is similar in size to the 5 liter V8. The last few years that I went to the San Diego auto show, it seemed that all of the Ford engines had the same style of MAF, with the only difference being the diameter (ie. flow capability). Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 18:15:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA04377; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:03:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04372; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:03:10 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm2-22.magicnet.net [206.104.207.55]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07281; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:02:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051802.NAA07281@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 13:00:29 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Peter, with all due respect, one of the biggest problems the U.S. has >is that it is blisfully ignorant of other cultures. English is not >the only language spoken in the world. In fact, I believe it is >*third*. A quick look at this guy's name and location will tell you >that this guy's mother tongue is French. If you spoke French you >would understand why he spells like that in English. I did look at and note his address, and said "up there". I prefer to disagree with you on the spelling being in french. It just looks bad to me. >I thinks he did >quite well....you understood what he was trying to say -right ? No, and that was the reason for the comment. Working my way through all of the spelling errors became such hard work that I gave up and went onto the next posting. Therefore, if I had been able to contribute anything to the reply, I wouldn't have, because it would have been too much like hard work. This is why there are spell checkers, so that simple errors can be eliminated by the computer. Poor English is a different story, and my French would be a lot worse than his English, but I would try and run it through a spell checker to get some sort of chance of the best possible responses to my questions. If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be very different and then everything would be excusable. > How about some slack ? > Ok,you answer the question, I'm off to the next posting >Mark Hillier >mhillier@dataradio.com >Montreal, Canada Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 18:34:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA04440; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:19:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail13.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04435; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:19:24 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us4rmc.pko.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA29632; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:07:47 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA02380; Mon, 5 Feb 96 12:53:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9602051753.AA02380@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us4rmc.enet; Mon, 5 Feb 96 13:10:01 EST Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 13:10:01 EST To: diy_efi Cc: "gmd@tecinfo.com"@us1rmc.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: diy_efi Subject: Engine codes; PC to General Motors ALDL interface Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > George M. Dailey (gmd@tecinfo.com) said: > Does Diacom have and any idea about their massive following? I hope that Rinda Technologies (maker of the DIACOM hardware/software package) has a massive following. DIACOM IMHO is an excellent product and very fairly priced at about $300. > The latest > J.C. Witney catalog #586k (inside cover page) has an Auto Xray XP240 scanner > for $280 complete, no PC needed. The illustration shows a two line display > (32 characters). Interface cables are available for GM (king of autos), Ford > :-}, and that other car maker ... Chrysler for only $29 each. I do not own > one, and I don't know anybody that owns one. I'd be willing to bet that it > works as advertised. My only experience with the Auto Xray scanner is reading its advertisement. It may be OK for GM and Chrysler owners since it displays information from their cars' serial data stream. It only displays trouble codes for Ford products. This makes it by far the most expensive Ford code reader in existence. > I neglected to tell you folks out in DIY FI land, what my true reason was > for wanting to read ALDL data. > Here's my confession. I have constructed a mid engine, rear wheel driven > sports car from scratch. The engine is a '85 PFI 3.8L Buick V6. The plan is > to transmit the ALDl data to a dedicated PC, peramanently mounted in the car > and connected to a small VGA monitor. Software would convert the data to > usefull information that would be displayed on the monitor. Boom, no > additional instruments needed and a wealth of data on demand. The car > (Bianca) was designed to house a PC. Think of her as a streached > Lamborghini Contach with all the room and comfort of a full size '70's Olds. > Data logging would also be utilized. The PC would also control some BODY > functions. It's not that I'm to cheap to by Diacom or XP240 (I just might by > the XP240) but, if I'm going to make this work I need to get some type of > simple PC to ALDL communication established. > Any help on the software end would be much needed. I'll begin by congratulating George on his construction and enthusiasm. As soon as you decide to *control* body (or any component) function from a PC, you are in another ball game. I believe that DIACOM uses some fairly sophisticated programming to extract information from the data streams (I think there are four streams, not just one) at the ALDL. Learning the many details of these data streams is a difficult task. Learning how to write a program to perform I/O at a PC's parallel port requires a large amount of time for a beginner. Perhaps you can take advantage of what DIY_EFI members have done to control the engine functions and modify this software? Other members may have advice and suggestions, more promising than mine are, to George. If so, speak up! > thanks' > George M. Dailey gmd@tecinfo.com Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 19:01:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA04659; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:44:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04654; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:44:27 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0UNTDO7Y8939XL5@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <31164FE1@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:43:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:42:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <31164FE1@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 26 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Clint writes: >Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this "sudden increase in the >amount of required air" that is going to draw a vacuum? I don't know all of the physics behind it, but it is related to the velocity and inertia of the air, length of intake track, etc. The previous post about "acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of throttle transients" was correct and is how the computer compensates for this condition. >Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it is >on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is >going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec flowing >through me". Excuse me? That's exactly what the MAF *does* tell you: mass air flow (kg/hr) flowing through the meter and into the engine. That's the beauty of the MAF. Pressure, temperature, and density variations do not have a (large) effect on the accuracy. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 19:09:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA04766; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:58:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04761; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:58:13 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id LAA01119 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:41:29 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Mon, 5 Feb 96 11:53 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Mon, 5 Feb 96 11:47:12 EDT Message-Id: <9601051847.AA17973@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: IAC To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 11:47:09 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9601058235.AA823537098@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au>; from "dzorde@aesprodata.com.au" at Feb 5, 96 8:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dan wrote: > On the subject of the GM IAC(idle air controller) for the TPI engines. > Does anyone know of a replacement, working of sensing the temperature > or similar, ie. some sort of bi-metal spring system. The problem is The IAC is a stepper motor controlled by the ECU. The ECU stores a reference position when the engine is shut off, and closes the valve so it knows where it is on start up (open loop, no position feedback from the IAC). The IAC is controlled by engine RPM, it adjusts idle speed according to engine load. Think of it as a small throttle plate bypassing the main throttle body. Only way I can think of to make it work without ECU control is to design a small processor board to emulate the ECU signals. This would require an input from the ignition system (to determine RPM) and stepper motor driver software with a driver chip or discrete transistor output. Simply write the code to adjust the IAC in or out (in real time) until the idle speed is what you want, after that anything that affects idle (temperature, A/C, alternator load, auto transmission in gear, etc.) would be compensated for by the processor. (this would be a good application for a BASIC stamp). I don't know for sure if you could just bypass it, I think it is necessary to have it hooked up in order for the engine to get enough air at idle. Can't remember if there is a separate idle speed screw on the throttle body. You could maybe adjust the thing by removing it and rotating the pintle until you get the idle speed you want, and just leave it there, but you won't have any warmup fast idle or other compensation. You might also be able to hack off the motor end of the thing, so you can rotate the shaft and have a manual adjustment |-( regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 20:05:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA04970; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:48:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA04965; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:48:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051948.OAA04965@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from twisto by wotan.compaq.com via rmail with uucp id for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 5 Feb 96 12:47:55 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 17-jan-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:51:05 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.1 built 17-jan-96) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:51:05 -0600 (CST) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Mon, 5 Feb 96 9:50:48 CST Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 9:50:45 CST Resent-Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: Resent-From: Subject: fwd: What about H202 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Comments By: Steve Ravet@Prj Eng@PCPD Hou Originally To: Originally From: Hotrod List Original Date: 2/2/96 12:09 PM Comments: I thought this was a very interesting question from the hotrod list. Any comments? I'll forward them back to the hotrod list... --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... -------------------------[Original Message]-------------------------- I've been thinking on and off for a while about hydrogen peroxide injection. It would seem to have all of the benefits of water injection, plus some of the benifits of nitrous oxide injection. The question in my mind is "why is this not done?". The only answer I can come up with is that H2O2 looses its O too early in the combustion process ( with respect to N20 ) and thus has an effect similar to straight O2 -- explosion in the wrong place at the wrong time. Does anybody have any experience in, or references to, the subject? Thanks in advance. Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today. 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@server, x258 Santa Ana CA outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x258 92704 DoD:1097 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 5 22:12:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA07434; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:51:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA07427; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:51:16 -0500 Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.berkeley.edu [128.32.155.3]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA11236 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:50:44 -0800 Received: (from james@localhost) by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04525; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:46:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199602052146.NAA04525@uclink.berkeley.edu> X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer (Green Edition Ver 1.03a) To: diy_efi From: James Patterson Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:52:00 EST Subject: Re: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ** Reply to note from dn 02/05/96 11:47am MDT > Dan wrote: > The IAC is a stepper motor controlled by the ECU. The ECU stores a reference > position when the engine is shut off, and closes the valve so it knows where > it is on start up (open loop, no position feedback from the IAC). > > I don't know for sure if you could just bypass it, I think it is necessary > to have it hooked up in order for the engine to get enough air at idle. Can't > remember if there is a separate idle speed screw on the throttle body. You > could maybe adjust the thing by removing it and rotating the pintle until > you get the idle speed you want, and just leave it there, but you won't have > any warmup fast idle or other compensation. You might also be able to hack > off the motor end of the thing, so you can rotate the shaft and have a manual > adjustment It would be simple enough to put a 3 position switch (on-off-on) wired into the IAC to manualy control speed. The voltage ( I believe 5v) would have to be supplied. The switch could be mounted in the cabin and allow the driver to adjust for various conditions. The IAC holds its last position so you should not have to adjust at every startup. James Patterson james@uclink.berkeley.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 02:01:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA08532; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:44:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA08527; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:44:32 -0500 Received: from p2-2.net-link.net (p2-2 [205.217.6.136]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA29937 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:41:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199602060141.UAA29937@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 20:35:43 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Bill Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:42 AM 2/5/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Clint writes: > >>Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this "sudden increase in the >>amount of required air" that is going to draw a vacuum? > >I don't know all of the physics behind it, but it is related to the velocity >and inertia of the air, length of intake track, etc. The previous post >about "acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of throttle >transients" was correct and is how the computer compensates for this >condition. > >>Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it >is >>on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is >>going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec >flowing >>through me". > >Excuse me? That's exactly what the MAF *does* tell you: mass air flow >(kg/hr) flowing through the meter and into the engine. That's the beauty of >the MAF. Pressure, temperature, and density variations do not have a >(large) effect on the accuracy. > >Bryan Zublin >bzublin@gi.com > > I think what Clint is saying is that the MAF produces a frequency or voltage PROPORTIONAL to the mass of air currently passing through it, rather than a binary or BCD number showing exactly what the current flow is.....its all a matter of the way he phrased the statement. With any 2-wire device, it's usually the user's responsibility to decode the data into some meaningful result. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 02:37:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA08640; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:22:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lynx.cbr.dit.csiro.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA08634; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:21:56 -0500 Received: from polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au by lynx.cbr.dit.csiro.au (8.6.12/1.06S) id NAA15411; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:21:41 +1100 From: gavin@cbr.dit.csiro.au (Gavin Walker) Received: by polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au (8.6.12/1.07C) id NAA05744; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:21:40 +1100 Message-Id: <199602060221.NAA05744@polaris.cbr.dit.csiro.au> Subject: Electronic thottles To: DIY_EFI (DIY EFI) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:21:40 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 883 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Guys I read recently that as part of the Merc skid control system they switched to using a remote throttle. i.e. there is no cable connecting the pedal and the throttle. Are the current stepping motors sufficiently quick for this? I can see advantages in idle control, gear selection and dual throttle bodies. Well the volume of this list is getting too much for the moment so I've sign off for the next few months. When I get closer to materialising my project I'll hop back on. See you guys later. 1978 Toyota Corolla KE50 Liftback 1.2l 3K-C 8ohv 275 000km 1992 Mitsubishi Lancer CC GLXi Hatch 1.6l SOHC16v 4G92 60 000km 1967 Rover P6 2000 SC Sedan SOHC8v ?15 000miles -- _--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker / \ | \_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin.walker@dit.csiro.au v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 04:16:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA08938; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 04:01:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eri1.erinet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA08933; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:01:12 -0500 Received: from ddlp00.erinet.com by eri1.erinet.com (8.6.12/EriNet) id XAA03468; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:03:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:03:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199602060403.XAA03468@eri1.erinet.com> X-Sender: wcox@erinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Wayne Cox Subject: Re: fwd: What about H202 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>I thought this was a very interesting question from the hotrod list. Any >>comments? I'll forward them back to the hotrod list... ............ >I've been thinking on and off for a while about hydrogen peroxide >injection. It would seem to have all of the benefits of water The stuff you dump on flesh wounds is only a fraction of a percent dilute solution. They tried to use concentrated stuff as rocket fuel in the 40's, but it was a little unstable - organic stuff would burst into flames on contact. It's an outrageously strong oxidizer. If you could get enough to produce usable amounts of O2, I think you'd have enough residual non-compressible water to break something in your engine. -WC >Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today. 3700 Segerstrom Ave OK - cool. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 05:47:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA09185; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:34:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA09180; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:34:50 -0500 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id al23935; 6 Feb 96 1:18 GMT Received: from bprior.demon.co.uk ([158.152.215.109]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa25933; 6 Feb 96 1:08 GMT From: brian To: DIY_EFI Subject: REQ. Info on EFI Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 01:07:51 GMT Message-Id: <3116a9e3.4349075@post.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.179 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu `Hi I am looking for info on EFI for a friend. He does a bit of rallying and was reading in a magazine about a man in England that built is own version. This is like the ProFlo fuel injector in that he can alter the settings while it is running. Unlike the ProFlo this connects to an ordinary PC . This allows him to put it on a rolling road and fiddle with the settings till he gets the right horsepower etc. The Circuit I understand was called M3d and the guy built it for a Few hundred pounds. I would appreciate any help on this as he is driving me up the wall. Thanks Brian Prior From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 06:26:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA09290; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:12:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix13.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09285; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:12:35 -0500 Received: from by ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA28255; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:12:26 -0800 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:12:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199602060612.WAA28255@ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Re[2]: IAC To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > > > I'm using a Wolf 3D system which doesn't allow for control of the > standard IAC, thus I was thinking of either using: > > 1. the old style solenoid switch that opens the throttle a bit when > power is applied. Requires the original IAC mounting hole to be > blocked off. > > 2. a temperature sensing bi-metal type air by-pass valve as used on > many Nissans. Requires blocking of the original IAC mounting hole > also. > > 3. Nothing at all. > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: IAC >Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET >Date: 05/2/96 4:25 PM > > >You wrote: >> >> >> >> On the subject of the GM IAC(idle air controller) for the TPI >engines. >> Does anyone know of a replacement, working of sensing the >temperature >> or similar, ie. some sort of bi-metal spring system. The problem >is >> that I need some sort of idle stabilisation on a TPI system but >the >> ECU does not allow for control of the standard IAC. >> >> Is it possible to leave the IAC off all together? >> >> Any ideas will be appreciated. Preferably the parts should be >> available of Australian cars, since US parts are to expensive >over >> here. >> >> >> Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au >> >> >the iac is just a little stepping motor gm bottoms it shut at start >and then backs it off a a certain number of steps to control idle >mixture air and also as a deceleration valve during throttle release >closing. what sort of ecm are you using? >ford uses a solonoid thats pwm to do the same thing but ive heard the >gm stepper works better and smother as long as the valve lead screw is >kept clean (i own a iac gm ). >maybe i could design a little gaget using a pic16 up. >Does that wolf unit have any output that could control throttle air input you realize that its a multiphase ac stepping motor could probably make a circuit using cheap ics that would open it realative to tempature or how about a super simple circuit to open or close it with just a pair of push buttons when you read it with a scan tool it just tells you the number of counts open 80 is pretty much maximum but it will send it more if it thinks the iac is sticking so i guess you could concider it a feed back loop .> From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 06:39:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA09350; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:27:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09345; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:27:22 -0500 Received: from by ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA12009; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:27:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:27:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199602060627.WAA12009@ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Spellcheckers To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > > > >>Peter, with all due respect, one of the biggest problems the U.S. has >>is that it is blisfully ignorant of other cultures. English is not >>the only language spoken in the world. In fact, I believe it is >>*third*. A quick look at this guy's name and location will tell you >>that this guy's mother tongue is French. If you spoke French you >>would understand why he spells like that in English. > >I did look at and note his address, and said "up there". I prefer to >disagree with you on the spelling being in french. It just looks bad to me. > > >>I thinks he did >>quite well....you understood what he was trying to say -right ? > >No, and that was the reason for the comment. Working my way through all of >the spelling errors became such hard work that I gave up and went onto the >next posting. Therefore, if I had been able to contribute anything to the >reply, I wouldn't have, because it would have been too much like hard work. >This is why there are spell checkers, so that simple errors can be >eliminated by the computer. Poor English is a different story, and my French >would be a lot worse than his English, but I would try and run it through a >spell checker to get some sort of chance of the best possible responses to >my questions. > > >If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be >very different and then everything would be excusable. > > >> How about some slack ? >> > >Ok,you answer the question, I'm off to the next posting > > >>Mark Hillier >>mhillier@dataradio.com >>Montreal, Canada >Peter Wales >President Superchips Inc Florida >Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" >Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com > i'm guilty too because i just bang these messages in with one finger and don't really spellcheck or grammar check that carefully. i wish i was a polyglot i would enjoy understanding the dialog in foreign movies on u.s. television.> From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 07:14:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA09436; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:00:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix3.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA09431; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:00:16 -0500 Received: from by ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA03857; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:00:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:00:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199602060700.XAA03857@ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Electronic thottles To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >Hi Guys > I read recently that as part of the Merc skid control system they >switched to using a remote throttle. i.e. there is no cable >connecting the pedal and the throttle. Are the current stepping >motors sufficiently quick for this? I can see advantages in idle >control, gear selection and dual throttle bodies. > > Well the volume of this list is getting too much for the moment so >I've sign off for the next few months. When I get closer to >materialising my project I'll hop back on. See you guys later. > >1978 Toyota Corolla KE50 Liftback 1.2l 3K-C 8ohv 275 000km >1992 Mitsubishi Lancer CC GLXi Hatch 1.6l SOHC16v 4G92 60 000km >1967 Rover P6 2000 SC Sedan SOHC8v ?15 000miles >-- > _--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker > / \ | > \_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin.walker@dit.csiro.au > v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111 i thought about a electronically controled throttle plate in a way an iac is that i would like to build that for my buick . i wonder if i could use the cruise control vac motor as a servo maybe a dc motor servo would work better if done properly it might solve many emission problems and lead footing which drops engine vaccume and leans the mixture. the only thing is that it has to be designed carefully to prevent "runaway throttle". From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 08:23:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA09573; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:08:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA09568; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 03:08:22 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA10066; Tue, 6 Feb 96 16:08:43 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823652148 Tue, 06 Feb 96 16:15:48 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 16:15:48 Message-Id: <9601068236.AA823652148@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[4]: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Previous stuff deleted >Does that wolf unit have any output that could control throttle air >input you realize that its a multiphase ac stepping motor >could probably make a circuit using cheap ics that would open >it realative to tempature or how about a super simple circuit to >open or close it with just a pair of push buttons when you read >it with >a scan tool it just tells you the number of counts open 80 is >pretty much maximum but it will send it more if it thinks the iac is >sticking so i guess you could concider it a feed back loop .> It just so happend that it may be possible to configure an aux injector output as a mainly on/off output for an IAC. It all depends on when the software is being updated. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 10:40:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA10434; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:18:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA10429; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:17:58 -0500 Received: from by ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id CAA10432; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:17:55 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:17:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199602061017.CAA10432@ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Re[4]: IAC To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > > >Previous stuff deleted > >>Does that wolf unit have any output that could control throttle air >>input you realize that its a multiphase ac stepping motor >>could probably make a circuit using cheap ics that would open >>it realative to tempature or how about a super simple circuit to >>open or close it with just a pair of push buttons when you read >>it with >>a scan tool it just tells you the number of counts open 80 is >>pretty much maximum but it will send it more if it thinks the iac is >>sticking so i guess you could concider it a feed back loop .> > >It just so happend that it may be possible to configure an aux injector >output as a mainly on/off output for an IAC. It all depends on when >the software is being updated. > >do you think there is a market for more than one unit? if i sent you a un prototyped schematic could you build and debug it? maybe i will build one using a pic16 up as a little learning exercise the pic only costs $2.50 us and can do the whole thing with just a little stepper driver circuit and a dip switch for open and closed pintle position; if you could pulse with modulate or vary the frequency of that output it would convert that into counts. maybe a solonoid valve and a needle valve would be easier for you does any one else out their have any interest in this project i am trying to come up with new pic16 applications and have developement hardware and software for it and eproms ,intel 87xx ups currently i can only program the 165x series because i have not upgraded my programmer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 14:17:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA10695; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:43:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10690; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:43:57 -0500 Received: from port49.fishnet.net (port49.fishnet.net [205.216.133.249]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA13094 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:43:44 GMT Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:43:44 GMT Message-Id: <199602060543.FAA13094@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re:PIC app. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >if i sent you a un prototyped schematic could you build and debug it? > maybe i will build one using a pic16 up as a little learning exercise >the pic only costs $2.50 us and can do the whole thing with just >a little stepper driver circuit and a dip switch for open and closed >pintle position; if you could pulse with modulate or vary the frequency >of that output it would convert that into counts. >maybe a solonoid valve and a needle valve would be easier for you >does any one else out their have any interest in this project >i am trying to come up with new pic16 applications and have >developement hardware and software for it and eproms ,intel 87xx ups >currently i can only program the 165x series because i have not >upgraded my programmer. I've got a project for you. How about a boost controller. HKS uses a stepper in theirs and I think they go for $7-800US. I have thought about doing something like this once I get up to speed on controllers. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 15:09:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA10974; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:01:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vhf.dataradio.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10969; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:00:57 -0500 Received: from dri.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by vhf.dataradio.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA26674 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:00:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199602061400.JAA26674@vhf.dataradio.com> Received: by dri (UUXFER v1.4d2); Tue 06 Feb 1996 08:59:47 EST From: "Mark Hillier" To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:59:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Spellcheckers & Hall Effect sensors Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Peter wrote: > I did look at and note his address, and said "up there". I prefer to > disagree with you on the spelling being in french. It just looks bad to me. I see... > > >I think he did > >quite well....you understood what he was trying to say -right ? > > No, and that was the reason for the comment. Working my way through all of > the spelling errors became such hard work that I gave up and went onto the > next posting. Funny, most people figures it out quite well. > Therefore, if I had been able to contribute anything to the > reply, I wouldn't have, because it would have been too much like hard work. But you seem to treat the list as just that -work. I think most of are here becaure we are interested or *enjoy* it. Your business side is showing. Be careful you don't let Superchips go to your head -Cyberspace will trash you if you do. > This is why there are spell checkers, so that simple errors can be > eliminated by the computer. Poor English is a different story, and my French > would be a lot worse than his English, but I would try and run it through a > spell checker to get some sort of chance of the best possible responses to > my questions. Agreed. He could have done that. I could do that and eliminate my typos -but what a pain. Imagine if you had to spell-chek all your posts....adding all those tech. terms to the dictionary etc... > If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be > very different and then everything would be excusable. I don't get it. Are you implying that if he had been *completely* incoherent, that it would be Ok; but that since he *almost* had it right, that its not ? -"are you for real ?" > > How about some slack ? > Ok,you answer the question, I'm off to the next posting Hurry... you have 27 more to do before lunch! >;-o ------------------------------------------------------------------ DRASTIC CHANGE OF TOPIC (enough wasted bandwidth) Has anyone tried a Hall Effect sensor from Honeywell ? I have one at home that gives a nice 5 V pulse train. It is rated for automotive use. I have the part number and specs at home if anyone is interested. Cost is about 30 $CDN in single quantities. Mark Hillier DATARADIO Technical Support mhillier@dataradio.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 16:29:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA11368; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:15:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11363; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:15:27 -0500 From: Watergeo@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20407 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:14:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:14:57 -0500 Message-ID: <960206111457_215429086@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor (California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust and the controllers are similar I would guess. Nick Hagen From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 18:15:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA12110; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:01:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12105; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:01:53 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm2-12.magicnet.net [206.104.207.45]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08762; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:55:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199602061755.MAA08762@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 12:53:32 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:59 AM 2/6/96 +0000, diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >> No, and that was the reason for the comment. Working my way through all of >> the spelling errors became such hard work that I gave up and went onto the >> next posting. > >Funny, most people figures it out quite well. It never ceases to amaze me how you guys all know what everyone else is doing. Must be telepathy or something. > >> Therefore, if I had been able to contribute anything to the >> reply, I wouldn't have, because it would have been too much like hard work. > >But you seem to treat the list as just that -work. I think most of >are here becaure we are interested or *enjoy* it. I think I'm getting flamed for the sake of it here. If you have a question, don't you think it makes sense to present your question neatly written with no spelling errors. That way those who can offer the answers will not have to try and decipher your laziness and do the spelling for you. Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to the list. My reaction when I read it is that if the poster can't be bothered to pose the question properly, why should I waste my time answering it properly. It all depends upon whether you are a giver or a taker in this world I suppose. >Your business side >is showing. Be careful you don't let Superchips go to your head >-Cyberspace will trash you if you do. Too late, it has already gone to my head, and tried to trash me as well, but fortunately it failed. > >> This is why there are spell checkers, so that simple errors can be >> eliminated by the computer. Poor English is a different story, and my French >> would be a lot worse than his English, but I would try and run it through a >> spell checker to get some sort of chance of the best possible responses to >> my questions. > >Agreed. He could have done that. I could do that and eliminate my >typos -but what a pain. Imagine if you had to spell-chek all your >posts....adding all those tech. terms to the dictionary etc... So everyone else has to do it for him? Sounds like he didn't need the answer to the question very badly. > >> If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be >> very different and then everything would be excusable. > >I don't get it. Are you implying that if he had been *completely* >incoherent, that it would be Ok; but that since he *almost* had it >right, that its not ? -"are you for real ?" > Look at the address and the place of employment. If the questioner had been from a non English speaking country and had made an effort to write the question in English, then it would have been obvious he didn't speak English, and deserved a lot of credit for trying. This post was simply the result of bashing it out on the keyboard and not checking it before posting. How do I know? I've done it myself and been embarrassed about it when I've seen it on the screen. >> > How about some slack ? > >> Ok,you answer the question, I'm off to the next posting > >Hurry... you have 27 more to do before lunch! >;-o I'm going as fast as I can. If I were to pose a question on this list, I would take the time to think out exactly what it is I want to know, phrase the question carefully to screen out the answers and then check the grammar and spelling before I post it. After all, the people who reply are under no obligation to help me out and so I am going to make it as easy for them as possible. As a corollary, if I make it difficult to understand the question, why should anyone bother to unravel the mystery I have made, just so they can do something for me? Think about it. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 21:58:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA13195; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:24:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id QAA13190; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:24:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:24:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199602062124.QAA13190@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Paul Shackleton Subject: RE: REQ. Info on EFI Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Brian wrote: >`Hi I am looking for info on EFI for a friend. He does a bit of >rallying and was reading in a magazine about a man in England that >built is own version. This is like the ProFlo fuel injector in that he >can alter the settings while it is running. Unlike the ProFlo this >connects to an ordinary PC . This allows him to put it on a rolling >road and fiddle with the settings till he gets the right horsepower >etc. The Circuit I understand was called M3d and the guy built it for >a Few hundred pounds. I would appreciate any help on this as he is >driving me up the wall. > Thanks > Brian Prior This system has recently come on the market. It is, as you point out, called M3D and is produced by a South London (UK) firm called Emerald Cams. M3D started out as an ignition only setup and has recently had injection added. The cost is UKP300 + VAT for ignition only and UKP350 + VAT for both. It comes as a kit which includes the ECU, wiring harness, throttle pot, free software and sundry other bits and pieces and can be set up on the fly using a PC. It appears to be suitable only for 4 cylinder motors, although I have heard of someone fitting it to a Mini (A-series engine) using only 2 injectors (siamese intake). The bloke who runs Emerald Cams is called Dave Walker and is the Technical Editor of Cars and Car Conversions (CCC) magazine, which has run a couple of articles on M3D. Emerald have had their system hooked up to a Golf GTi and have also linked it to a pulsed nitrous kit. I haven't got the advert with me, but if you get a hold of a copy of CCC, they advertise in there. I am soon going to be fitting one of these systems to a GM 2.0 16v powered Westfield, coz at 350 pounds plus some homemade throttle bodies, you can't go wrong. It works out cheaper than a pair of carbs and anyone elses programmable ignition system. If you want an address/phone no., just ask and I will dig the advert out. Paul P.M.Shackleton@hud.ac.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 6 23:22:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA14118; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:06:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail11.digital.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA14110; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:06:04 -0500 From: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Received: from us4rmc.pko.dec.com by mail11.digital.com (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA29109; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:45:34 -0500 Received: from marx.enet by us4rmc.pko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA29183; Tue, 6 Feb 96 17:19:40 -0500 Message-Id: <9602062219.AA29183@us4rmc.pko.dec.com> Received: from marx.enet; by us4rmc.enet; Tue, 6 Feb 96 17:47:50 EST Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 17:47:50 EST To: diy_efi Cc: m_mcdonald@marx.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It's time for the flaming about spell checking, grammar checking, etc. to stop. IMHO the real point is having effective written communication among us DIY_EFI enthusiasts. Speaking as a former mathematics teacher and current software technical writer, I think we communicate quite well as we exchange questions/answers and problems/solutions. I certainly notice many spelling and grammatical errors in the messages. Rarely do these and other errors reduce my understanding of the messages' content. As an American who has made his share of grammatical mistakes while speaking German in Europe, I understand the difficulties non-Americans have with English. I also commend their sincere efforts in writing without using a computer to check their spelling. Peter, we appreciate the technical help you've given us and want to continue receiving it. I just don't think your non-technical comments belong on this list. In summary -- while my job centers around communicating technical information effectively, I encourage perfection but am not upset by less-than-perfect English on 'Net discussion lists. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@marx.enet.dec.com These opinions are strictly my own. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 00:54:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA14522; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:49:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA14517; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:49:21 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm8-10.magicnet.net [206.104.207.235]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA20525 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:49:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199602070049.TAA20525@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 20:46:22 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >It's time for the flaming about spell checking, grammar checking, >etc. to stop. Yes Teach! > >IMHO the real point is having effective written communication among >us DIY_EFI enthusiasts. Speaking as a former mathematics teacher and >current software technical writer, I think we communicate quite well >as we exchange questions/answers and problems/solutions. OK, we'll all stay sloppy >In summary -- while my job centers around communicating technical >information effectively, I encourage perfection but am not upset by >less-than-perfect English on 'Net discussion lists. Lets recap. I said "Do they have spell checkers up there". Thats all. Nothing else. Zip. I'm not upset, just amazed by people supporting bad English and saying that it's a good thing. But if thats the way you want it, ok by me. It's just that I'm not the one who is going to lose out. And just in case you guys think that I think I'm perfect, let me tell you about a good one that I made tonight. On another group, while telling them how things should be done, as is my way, I suggested they ought to "do XYZ, but then I'm biassed" The reply "but the rest of us are mono" had me puzzled for about 5 minutes until I saw it. Can you see it? To the relief of many this is the last from me on this subject, but still smiling. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 01:05:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA14561; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:01:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA14556; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:01:20 -0500 Received: from ptp8.tecinfo.com (ptp8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.230]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10465 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:55:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:55:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199602070055.SAA10465@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:14 AM 2/6/96 -0500, Nick Hagen wrote: > >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. > > > >I don't think you need a second o2 sensor because most V(8s or 6s) have the sensor placed in only one manifold (from the factory). My '58 is V8 powered, dual exhaust with crossover and one O2 vsensor. It's crossover is three feet from the O2. True enough, your ecm will only correct for one side of the motor. This does not seem to be a problem for the millions of Vs using a single o2 sensor. If you have a 'hurt me plenty' philosophy, you could connect two sensors and send the AVERAGE voltage to the ecm. Don't even think about wireing them together directly. You will need some type of analog circuit that will average the voltages. The circuit would need a very high impedence since the 02 sensors generate low voltage at extremly low currents. There are other things to consider also. good luck. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 02:14:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA14980; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:07:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA14975; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:07:04 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA12902; Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:06:47 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823710292 Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:24:52 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:24:52 Message-Id: <9601078237.AA823710292@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[6]: IAC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Previous stuff deleted >>It just so happend that it may be possible to configure an aux injector >>output as a mainly on/off output for an IAC. It all depends on when >>the software is being updated. >> >do you think there is a market for more than one unit? if i sent you a un prototyped schematic could you build and debug it? maybe i will build one using a pic16 up as a little learning exercise the pic only costs $2.50 us and can do the whole thing with just a little stepper driver circuit and a dip switch for open and closed pintle position; if you could pulse with modulate or vary the frequency of that output it would convert that into counts. maybe a solonoid valve and a needle valve would be easier for you does any one else out their have any interest in this project i am trying to come up with new pic16 applications and have developement hardware and software for it and eproms ,intel 87xx ups currently i can only program the 165x series because i have not upgraded my programmer. Thanks for the offer, yes I'm sure there would be others wanting the same thing for controlling IAC's of any kind. Unfortunately I need to get the car on the road in a great hurry, so I need a quick fix solution. However, once I have the car going, I'll have some spare time and if still interested, I'm sure I could build and debug it. But at the moment I just don't have any spare time. (By the way from memory I think PICs are slightly more expensive in OZ) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 02:40:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA15084; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:36:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15079; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:35:48 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA13141; Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:37:23 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823716412 Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:06:52 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:06:52 Message-Id: <9601078237.AA823716412@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu C'mon guys, quit filling up the net with useless crap. Even the best spellers get it wrong because their dyslexic fingers can't hit the right keys. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 07/2/96 9:59 AM At 08:59 AM 2/6/96 +0000, diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: >> No, and that was the reason for the comment. Working my way through all of >> the spelling errors became such hard work that I gave up and went onto the >> next posting. > >Funny, most people figures it out quite well. It never ceases to amaze me how you guys all know what everyone else is doing. Must be telepathy or something. > >> Therefore, if I had been able to contribute anything to the >> reply, I wouldn't have, because it would have been too much like hard work. > >But you seem to treat the list as just that -work. I think most of >are here becaure we are interested or *enjoy* it. I think I'm getting flamed for the sake of it here. If you have a question, don't you think it makes sense to present your question neatly written with no spelling errors. That way those who can offer the answers will not have to try and decipher your laziness and do the spelling for you. Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to the list. My reaction when I read it is that if the poster can't be bothered to pose the question properly, why should I waste my time answering it properly. It all depends upon whether you are a giver or a taker in this world I suppose. >Your business side >is showing. Be careful you don't let Superchips go to your head >-Cyberspace will trash you if you do. Too late, it has already gone to my head, and tried to trash me as well, but fortunately it failed. > >> This is why there are spell checkers, so that simple errors can be >> eliminated by the computer. Poor English is a different story, and my French >> would be a lot worse than his English, but I would try and run it through a >> spell checker to get some sort of chance of the best possible responses to >> my questions. > >Agreed. He could have done that. I could do that and eliminate my >typos -but what a pain. Imagine if you had to spell-chek all your >posts....adding all those tech. terms to the dictionary etc... So everyone else has to do it for him? Sounds like he didn't need the answer to the question very badly. > >> If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be >> very different and then everything would be excusable. > >I don't get it. Are you implying that if he had been *completely* >incoherent, that it would be Ok; but that since he *almost* had it >right, that its not ? -"are you for real ?" > Look at the address and the place of employment. If the questioner had been from a non English speaking country and had made an effort to write the question in English, then it would have been obvious he didn't speak English, and deserved a lot of credit for trying. This post was simply the result of bashing it out on the keyboard and not checking it before posting. How do I know? I've done it myself and been embarrassed about it when I've seen it on the screen. >> > How about some slack ? > >> Ok,you answer the question, I'm off to the next posting > >Hurry... you have 27 more to do before lunch! >;-o I'm going as fast as I can. If I were to pose a question on this list, I would take the time to think out exactly what it is I want to know, phrase the question carefully to screen out the answers and then check the grammar and spelling before I post it. After all, the people who reply are under no obligation to help me out and so I am going to make it as easy for them as possible. As a corollary, if I make it difficult to understand the question, why should anyone bother to unravel the mystery I have made, just so they can do something for me? Think about it. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 05:14:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA15373; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:06:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA15367; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:06:24 -0500 Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA06426; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:05:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:05:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199602070505.VAA06426@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Re[6]: IAC To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > > > >Previous stuff deleted > >>>It just so happend that it may be possible to configure an aux >injector >>>output as a mainly on/off output for an IAC. It all depends on when >>>the software is being updated. >>> >>do you think there is a market for more than one unit? >if i sent you a un prototyped schematic could you build and debug it? > maybe i will build one using a pic16 up as a little learning exercise >the pic only costs $2.50 us and can do the whole thing with just >a little stepper driver circuit and a dip switch for open and closed >pintle position; if you could pulse with modulate or vary the frequency >of that output it would convert that into counts. >maybe a solonoid valve and a needle valve would be easier for you >does any one else out their have any interest in this project >i am trying to come up with new pic16 applications and have >developement hardware and software for it and eproms ,intel 87xx ups >currently i can only program the 165x series because i have not >upgraded my programmer. > >Thanks for the offer, yes I'm sure there would be others wanting the >same thing for controlling IAC's of any kind. Unfortunately I need to >get the car on the road in a great hurry, so I need a quick fix >solution. However, once I have the car going, I'll have some spare >time and if still interested, I'm sure I could build and debug it. >But at the moment I just don't have any spare time. (By the way from >memory I think PICs are slightly more expensive in OZ) > > > just close the iac manually and use a "choke cable " manual throttle to set idle airflow throttle stop position . did you ever hear of dick smith electronics he has parts inexpensively. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 05:14:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA15394; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:11:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA15389; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:11:41 -0500 Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA25934; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:11:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:11:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199602070511.VAA25934@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re:PIC app. To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >>if i sent you a un prototyped schematic could you build and debug it? >> maybe i will build one using a pic16 up as a little learning exercise >>the pic only costs $2.50 us and can do the whole thing with just >>a little stepper driver circuit and a dip switch for open and closed >>pintle position; if you could pulse with modulate or vary the frequency >>of that output it would convert that into counts. >>maybe a solonoid valve and a needle valve would be easier for you >>does any one else out their have any interest in this project >>i am trying to come up with new pic16 applications and have >>developement hardware and software for it and eproms ,intel 87xx ups >>currently i can only program the 165x series because i have not >>upgraded my programmer. > >I've got a project for you. How about a boost controller. HKS uses a stepper >in theirs >and I think they go for $7-800US. I have thought about doing something like this >once I get up to speed on controllers. > >Fred > most use a pwm valve to control the waste gate the only problem is i dont have a turboed car to experiment on right now.> From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 09:15:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA15724; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:07:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA15719; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 04:07:42 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA15296; Wed, 7 Feb 96 17:09:05 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA823741670 Wed, 07 Feb 96 17:07:50 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 17:07:50 Message-Id: <9601078237.AA823741670@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: GM TPI system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu For anyone out there How do you clean the injectors on the GM TPI systems (85 system). I presume you have to pull them out of the fuel rail ? If so, do you have to pull the whole top apart to get the fuel rail off the manifold bosses ? I know the injectors are held in by a sort of 1/3 turn locking clip, when this is undone do you just pull out the injectors (they seem to be in very tightly) ? Any help appreciated Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 13:39:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA16094; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:26:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA16089; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:26:51 -0500 From: marchil@ibm.net Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA65727 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:26:49 GMT Received: from slip129-37-164-90.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.164.90) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id smay5YDFW; Wed Feb 7 13:26:07 1996 Received: by localhost (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.9)/1.0um) id AA0013; Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:24:33 -0800 Message-Id: <9602071624.AA0013@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:16:12 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re: Spellcheckers ..... X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <10_53_1_823698974> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu OK The bickering has went on long enough. I will reply be my self. And terminate it my self. >Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to the >list. My reaction when I read it is that if the poster can't be bothered to >pose the question properly, why should I waste my time answering it >properly. It all depends upon whether you are a giver or a taker in this >world I suppose. I did not want to post any garbage. And by just re reading my post would have help in getting read of most of the typos. >>Your business side >>is showing. Be careful you don't let Superchips go to your head >>cyberspace will trash you if you do. >Too late, it has already gone to my head, and tried to trash me as well, but >fortunately it failed. No need to point fingers at any one. >> If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be >> very different and then everything would be excusable. > >I don't get it. Are you implying that if he had been *completely* >incoherent, that it would be OK; but that since he *almost* had it >right, that its not ? -"are you for real ?" A quote from one of my English teachers will tell it all. "You speak like a native American but you write like an African pigmy" I think this sums it up. I had remouved my spellchecker to re-partition my hard drive to install Linux //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@IBM.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 15:00:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA16406; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:44:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vhf.dataradio.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA16401; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:44:51 -0500 Received: from dri.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by vhf.dataradio.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA03203 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:46:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199602071446.JAA03203@vhf.dataradio.com> Received: by dri (UUXFER v1.4d2); Wed 07 Feb 1996 09:43:37 EST From: "Mark Hillier" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:43:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Funny, most people figured it out quite well. > > It never ceases to amaze me how you guys all know what everyone else is > doing. Must be telepathy or something. Careful, hypocracy can creep-up on you; you have *no* idea how much mail I have received directly about this. I'm sorry Peter, I didn't mean to 'start' something here but you just won't give up. People have sent a ridiculous amount of ;support' mail to me here at work -so much in fact, that I had better get back to work or else.... >Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to >the list. Foul! I put my personal email address in my sig. so the list didn't have to support this....did you ? So don't cry to me about cluttering the list. > Look at the address and the place of employment. If the questioner had been > from a non English speaking country and had made an effort to write the Thank-you for making my point. You have no idea what it is like up here do you ? Why should you...you have probably never been here. Fine, I've never been to Sri Lanka, but if someone comes on to the list with rotten 'habits', and signs from a country that I know *nothing* about, I sure as hell don't flame him. You write freely to the list because you *know* your stuff inside-out. You can argue and correct because you know your EFI intimately. I don't know *that* much about the topic yet. So what ? well, if you say something I think is wrong, I don't jump onto the list and call you a liar, I *quietly* look it up and see who is right. Maybe its me, maybe its you. you're only human and are allowed to make mistakes. My point you ask ? Quebec is mainly French speaking. From your perspective, if you visit here, it could easily be a different country all together...the culture is *that* different. If you don't *know*, the polite thing to do is to keep it to yourself. Now, I consider this to be a closed topic. If you *really* want to debate it more, my home email is Mark@HVWTech.com My apologies to the list for this interminable diatribe. Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 15:35:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA16978; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:20:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devserve.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA16973; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:20:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199602071520.KAA16973@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devserve.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA013396443; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:20:43 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: GM TPI system To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 10:20:43 EST In-Reply-To: <9601078237.AA823741670@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au>; from "dzorde@aesprodata.com.au" at Feb 07, 96 5:07 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ ~ ~ For anyone out there ~ ~ How do you clean the injectors on the GM TPI systems (85 system). I ~ presume you have to pull them out of the fuel rail ? ~ ~ If so, do you have to pull the whole top apart to get the fuel rail ~ off the manifold bosses ? ~ ~ I know the injectors are held in by a sort of 1/3 turn locking clip, ~ when this is undone do you just pull out the injectors (they seem to ~ be in very tightly) ? ~ ~ Any help appreciated ~ ~ Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ~ You can go to shops who will clean the injectors on the car, but what I have heard this has limited success. It is best to remove them, and on a 85 GM removing the fuel rail is real easy (just be sure to replace the o-rings afterwards). If you are electronically-inclined, you can make a fuel injector energizer with a 555 timer and a driver transistor (I made one from a basic Stamp). If not, you can get the energizer device from J.C.Whitneys. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 15:54:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA17410; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:42:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA17403; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:42:04 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25416 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA09351 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:42:00 -0500 Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA00405; Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:47:10 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA15978; Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:46:41 EST Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:46:41 EST Message-Id: <9602071546.AA15978@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: MAF Sensors and Re:Spell Check Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Alain Marchildon wrote: >OK >The bickering has went on long enough. >I will reply be my self. >And terminate it my self. Time to throw my 2 cents in - As a third generation American of French Canadian decent, give the guy a break! Alain, c'est ne pas votre probleme, ca va? :-{)> Sometimes *I* write worse in English. Maybe it's in our genes. Getting back to DIY_EFI, does anyone have more information, including the governing equations on hot-wire mass air flow sensors - I may have to work one up for my Briggs & Stratton project. Single cylinder engines (especially leaky flatheads like the B&S) have a horrible (to non-existent) vacuum signal to work with, and I'm not likely to find a MAF sensor with a 1" throat at my Ford dealer. Since the system I'm designing needs to be altitude sensitive, a MAF may be a better approach. The original plan was to use MAP and gather data on the test stand, but time is getting short and a MAF interfaced to a lookup table may be a far better choice than a MAP that may be reading noise. I'm assuming that the MAF hot wire is fed with a constant current and the voltage variation due to temperature-dependent change of resistance is the output that is conditioned further. If anyone has any more info it would be much appreciated. MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure MAF - Mass Air Flow B&S - Briggs & Stratton, maker of most of the world's lawn mower engines. Cliff Ducharme / "A wing and a prayer" _______[*]_______ b / d My remarks do not reflect the opinions of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 15:54:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA17419; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:43:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id KAA17414; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:43:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:43:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199602071543.KAA17414@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe language_debate Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 16:10:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA17685; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:58:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA17680; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:58:15 -0500 From: marchil@ibm.net Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA25353 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:58:13 GMT Received: from slip129-37-164-84.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.164.84) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id smaVMoDFW; Wed Feb 7 15:57:56 1996 Received: by localhost (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.9)/1.0um) id AA0012; Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:56:33 -0800 Message-Id: <9602071856.AA0012@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:53:06 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <10_53_1_823708387> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEC-IV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEC-IV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. >Nick Hagen Hi Nick I would find a late model EEC-IV from a 5.0L Mustang. Your present HEGO will be used as the right one. You will have to run a wire from pin 43 from the 60 pin connector to what will be the left HEGO, connect in parallel the other two wires from the right HEGO, one wire is the ground and the other is 12V. Now you have to find a friend or maybe talk to Peter Wales "President of Superchips" and burn a new EPROM with all the information of the mustang EEC-IV except the fuel tables that will come from your pickups EEC-IV or an optimized fuel table would be preferred. Good Luck. //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@IBM.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 17:28:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA17976; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:23:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA17971; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:30 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0XDKNPC0G939C1J@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 07 Feb 1996 09:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <3118DFBC@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Wed, 07 Feb 1996 09:22:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 09:21:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Putting SAE papers on the EFI WWW page To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <3118DFBC@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 6 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone ever asked the SAE permission to put some of their papers on the Internet? I have a few that would be good for reference. Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 17:28:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA17983; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:23:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA17978; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:47 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA02174 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199602071723.AA02174@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:45 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:23:45 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF Sensors In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:46:41 EST." <9602071546.AA15978@eiss1.psf.ge.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 12:23:43 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I'm assuming that the MAF hot wire is fed with a constant current and the > voltage variation due to temperature-dependent change of resistance is the > output that is conditioned further. If anyone has any more info it would be > much appreciated. where MAF = Mass Air Flow On at least some MAF sensors, the hot wire is fed enough current to maintain a constant wire temperature. The current required is an indication of the mass air flow rate of air past the wire. The electrical power applied to the wire is assumed to be equal to the power lost via convective heat transfer. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 18:43:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA18491; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:28:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA18485; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:28:08 -0500 Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com ([151.116.23.138]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08688; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:27:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from centhub (centhub.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.137]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA09245; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:35:51 -0700 (MST) Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.951228) Received: from sp5-316.nts.uswest.com by cp.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20854; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:25:05 -0700 Received: by sp5-316.nts.uswest.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA04253; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:25:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:25:03 -0700 From: scicior@cp.uswc.uswest.com (Steve Ciciora) Message-Id: <9602071825.AA04253@sp5-316.nts.uswest.com> To: diy_efi, bowling@cebaf.gov Subject: Re: GM TPI system X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > If you are electronically-inclined, you can make a fuel injector > energizer with a 555 timer and a driver transistor (I made one > from a basic Stamp). If not, you can get the energizer device > from J.C.Whitneys. > > - Bruce > So, once you have the injector removed, and you are pulsing it, then what? Do you have to pressurize it with a fuel pump, and what do you pump through it? I'm assuming you did the above to clean your injectors. Can you just submerge the bottom half of the injector in some sort of cleaner, and pulse away? Thanks for the info! -Steven Ciciora P.S. I've heard the stamp described as 'The first device easier to use than a 555'. I agree, if you think you might need changes in the future. It's easier to download new basic code than to make major timing changes (in hardware), or if you need to add a delay between two events, etc. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 20:15:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA18742; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:03:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elwood.probe.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA18737; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:03:02 -0500 Received: from dial24.probe.net (dial24.probe.net [206.28.166.24]) by elwood.probe.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA08474 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:02:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:02:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199602072002.OAA08474@elwood.probe.net> X-Sender: sparks@pop.probe.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: tom sparks Subject: Re: Spellcheckers CUT THE SILLYNESS Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear Folks: It's time for my standard flame lecture. I have watched many flame wars and have noticed that NONE of them serve ANYONE but the combatants. Flame wars rarely enlighten and always annoy others. What do you kids hope to accomplish? Here's what you are accomplishing: You are showing the world how insecure and petty you can be while wasting everybody's time and disk space. What ever happened to respectful disagreement and the polite dropping of a meaningless subject that no one will agree upon? Or better yet, what happened to discretion? IF YOU MUST FLAME OR REPLY TO A FLAME, DO IT PRIVATELY. ANNOY EACH OTHER, NOT THE ENTIRE GROUP. Now, you may redeem yourselves thusly: Publicly apologize to the group and to one another (I don't EVEN care how right you think you are) for the crimes of incivility and bandwidth waste. I fully realize that flames are an internet tradition, but as far as traditions go, they are as welcome and as useful as a Christmas fruitcake. The holding of one's tongue is as useful in person as it is in a faceless setting like an e-mail list. Flames burn everybody. I apoligize in advance for anyone who thinks this post is a waste of your time. Best Regards, Thomas Sparks P.S. No flames please, anything that even SMELLS like a flame won't even be given the dignity of a reading let alone an acknowledgement. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 7 21:11:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA19289; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:01:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nic.cerf.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA19284; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:01:13 -0500 Received: from mailserv.ada.com (ada.com [199.106.6.41]) by nic.cerf.net (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA23059 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dax.ada.com by mailserv.ada.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA12441; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:00:48 -0800 Received: from pacific.ada.com by dax.ada.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA28031; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:00:44 -0800 Received: by pacific.ada.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA29450; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:00:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:00:44 -0800 From: prasad@ada.com (Krishna Prasad) Message-Id: <9602072100.AA29450@pacific.ada.com> To: diy_efi Subject: FI with Leaded Fuel.. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Does anyone see a problem in using FI systems with Leaded Fuel. In India, we get only leaded fuel (atleast as of today) and I wanted to experiment FI on some 2-st motorcycles.. Thanks Krishna. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 00:26:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA20018; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:17:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA20013; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:17:34 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id LAA19167 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:16:47 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199602080016.LAA19167@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: FI with Leaded Fuel.. To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:16:46 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9602072100.AA29450@pacific.ada.com> from "Krishna Prasad" at Feb 7, 96 01:00:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1038 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Krishna, > Does anyone see a problem in using FI systems with > Leaded Fuel. In India, we get only leaded fuel (atleast > as of today) and I wanted to experiment FI on some 2-st > motorcycles.. Half the cars on our roads here in Australia use leaded fuel, many of which are fuel injected. I've never seen any problems with using leaded fuel as far as the fuel delivery system goes although it is likely that you may experience problems with reduced EGO (exhaust gas oxygen) sensor life. Leaded fuel hasn't appeared to have hurt the EGO sensor that I have used for over 3 years now and it had had six years of use before I installed it. The fact that your project is a two stroke will give you a few more headaches than your choice of fuel. Robert 'hoping that I haven't made a spelling mistake' Dingli -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 03:55:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA20580; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 03:43:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA20575; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:43:01 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:39:34 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 19:42:59 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9602080342.utk6635@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >At 10:42 AM 2/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >> >>Clint writes: >> >>>Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this "sudden increase in the >>>amount of required air" that is going to draw a vacuum? >> >>I don't know all of the physics behind it, but it is related to the velocity >>and inertia of the air, length of intake track, etc. The previous post >>about "acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of throttle >>transients" was correct and is how the computer compensates for this >>condition. >> >>>Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it >>is >>>on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is >>>going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec >>flowing >>>through me". >> >>Excuse me? That's exactly what the MAF *does* tell you: mass air flow >>(kg/hr) flowing through the meter and into the engine. That's the beauty of >>the MAF. Pressure, temperature, and density variations do not have a >>(large) effect on the accuracy. >> >>Bryan Zublin >>bzublin@gi.com >> >> > >I think what Clint is saying is that the MAF produces a frequency or voltage >PROPORTIONAL to the mass of air currently passing through it, rather than a >binary or BCD number showing exactly what the current flow is.....its all a >matter of the way he phrased the statement. With any 2-wire device, it's >usually the user's responsibility to decode the data into some meaningful >result. Thanks, that was what I was TRYING (unsucessfully I might add!) to say. When I reread that sentence, it took me a few minutes to figure it out again. Sorry for the confusing English. Clint ccorbin@intel7.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 04:15:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA20674; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 04:10:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA20669; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:09:54 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id UAA05556 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:36:20 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Wed, 7 Feb 96 20:49 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Wed, 7 Feb 96 20:43:05 EDT Message-Id: <9601080343.AA18058@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Spellcheckers To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 20:43:02 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9601078237.AA823716412@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au>; from "dzorde@aesprodata.com.au" at Feb 7, 96 10:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > C'mon guys, quit filling up the net with useless crap. Even the best > spellers get it wrong because their dyslexic fingers can't hit the > right keys. Speaking of useless crap, do you really find it necessary to include the ENTIRE TEXT of every message you reply to? A couple of lines would get the point across... Talk about burning up bandwidth... By the way, I agree with Peter on the spellchecker issue...but it's no skin off my a** if the guy wants to come across like Schleprock... I formed my opinion and went on to the next message a long time ago. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 04:42:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA20858; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 04:39:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from st6000.sct.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA20853; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:39:24 -0500 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29372; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:38:56 -0500 From: cshaw@st6000.sct.edu (Christine Shaw) Message-Id: <9602080438.AA29372@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Re: GM TPI system To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:38:55 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9602071825.AA04253@sp5-316.nts.uswest.com> from "Steve Ciciora" at Feb 7, 96 11:25:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 380 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Re: Cleaning Fuel Injectors. There is a product available from BG called 44k that is a fuel tank additive that *really* works. I have fixed many a hesitation and emmissions fluctuations on customer's cars. The only drawback is it is not available over the counter. You will have to find a garage or service center to sell it to you. It runs about US$15-20 a can. cshaw@sct.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 08:51:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA21505; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:46:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA21500; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 03:46:32 -0500 Received: from dialup23.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tkRzB-0001PlC; Thu, 8 Feb 96 00:45 PST Message-Id: X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 00:43:02 -0800 To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:14 AM 2/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hello > >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. > >Nick Hagen > my ford ltd (1985 3.8ltr v6) has 2 ego sensors, eec IV, and (eventually) single exhaust.- assuming you use the /a similar controller, must be a second input my error codes routinely distunguish between my lefft sensor not switching and my right sensor not switching. (i thing sensors got silicon fouled but anyway) check out "how to tune and modify Ford injection systems" or similar title from walden/b Daltons. i applolgize for typoes. have wiggling six month old on other arm. (and at risk of massive flaming, how many mail programs like eudora have spell checkers anyway) Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 12:32:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA21794; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:16:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA21789; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:16:19 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.117]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Thu, 8 Feb 96 23:16:13 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 23:16:13 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: MAF Sensors and Re:Spell Check Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:46 AM 7/02/96 EST, you wrote: >Alain Marchildon wrote: > >>OK >>The bickering has went on long enough. >>I will reply be my self. >>And terminate it my self. > >Time to throw my 2 cents in - >As a third generation American of French Canadian decent, give the guy a break! > >Alain, c'est ne pas votre probleme, ca va? :-{)> > >Sometimes *I* write worse in English. Maybe it's in our genes. > > >Getting back to DIY_EFI, does anyone have more information, including the >governing equations on hot-wire mass air flow sensors - I may have to work one >up for my Briggs & Stratton project. Single cylinder engines (especially >leaky flatheads like the B&S) have a horrible (to non-existent) vacuum signal >to work with, and I'm not likely to find a MAF sensor with a 1" throat at my >Ford dealer. Since the system I'm designing needs to be altitude sensitive, a >MAF may be a better approach. The original plan was to use MAP and gather data >on the test stand, but time is getting short and a MAF interfaced to a lookup >table may be a far better choice than a MAP that may be reading noise. > >I'm assuming that the MAF hot wire is fed with a constant current and the >voltage variation due to temperature-dependent change of resistance is the >output that is conditioned further. If anyone has any more info it would be >much appreciated. > > >MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure >MAF - Mass Air Flow >B&S - Briggs & Stratton, maker of most of the world's lawn mower engines. > > >Cliff Ducharme > / >"A wing and a prayer" _______[*]_______ > b / d > > >My remarks do not reflect the opinions of my employer. > Cliff, use throttle position it will work fine. You will still have to "map" throttle position verses RPM of course. For altitude use a map sensor (eg GM style) (don't connect to the manifold, don't even use a hose on it) and apply a separate correction after you have looked up the value in the "map". Using a Briggs & Stratton is a bit of a worry we use those things for boat anchors in Australia (although I must conceed that their newer engines are much better). Why not a nice Honda or Mitsubishi stationary engine. You are wasting your time with MAF on a single cylinder engine because of the pulsing in the inlet. I have heard a lot of talk (on this list) about MAF sensors but until you have to apply them they sound easy however you have all sorts of problems with pulsing and reverse flow, etc. Why do you think some of the manufacturers have such elaborate ducting and air cleaners (air box) that look like they came off the space shuttle! Don't get me wrong I have nothing against MAF but it's the same old story things are not as easy as they may first appear. This reminds me of a guy who had an early Air Sensors system (this was about 7 years ago)on a Mitsubishi Starion Group A car and wondered why the thing would go bulk rich on gear changes and blow a puff of smoke and carry on when he put his foot down again. The Air Sensors system (which uses MAF) was happily injecting the correct amount of fuel for all the air that was going out the compressor bypass valve!!!! A word for Peter Wales. I been told we don't use the "Queen's english" down under but everyone seems to understand what I'm saying! regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design Sydney Australia From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 18:56:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA23548; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:50:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from irene.pcug.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23543; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:50:10 -0500 Received: from Kate.ibmPCUG.CO.UK by irene.pcug.co.uk id aa15087; 8 Feb 96 17:40 GMT Received: from turbo by kate.ibmpcug.co.uk id aa08066; 8 Feb 96 17:37 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:39:25 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <116@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi, diy_efi Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:39:25 Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hello > >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. > Although there is a possibility that the module hardware may support dual HEGO's, I would imagine that the second HEGO option will have been turned off in the software to avoid spurious self-test error codes. Unless you're an EEC-iv hacker, you may have a problem re-enabling it ....... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 18:56:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA23541; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:50:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from irene.pcug.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23536; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:49:44 -0500 Received: from Kate.ibmPCUG.CO.UK by irene.pcug.co.uk id aa15088; 8 Feb 96 17:40 GMT Received: from turbo by kate.ibmpcug.co.uk id aa08068; 8 Feb 96 17:37 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:39:25 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <116@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi, diy_efi Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:39:25 Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hello > >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. > Although there is a possibility that the module hardware may support dual HEGO's, I would imagine that the second HEGO option will have been turned off in the software to avoid spurious self-test error codes. Unless you're an EEC-iv hacker, you may have a problem re-enabling it ....... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 19:54:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA23714; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:47:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pyromania.apana.org.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA23709; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:47:18 -0500 Received: (from pbarrie@localhost) by pyromania.apana.org.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) id GAA01065; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 06:47:02 +1100 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 06:47:01 +1100 (EST) From: Philip Barrie To: diy_efi Subject: Sequential Setup? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear Sirs, I wuold like to know your veiws on the "ideal" set-up for a sequential f/i system. Namely the best "on time" in relation to valve duration and at what point should the injector be timed to start it's operation? Also is there advantages to be had by altering the valve timing for a sequentail system as opposed to synchronous? Any input would be greatly appreciated ! Thanking You, Philip pbarrie@pyromania.apana.org.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 21:25:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24340; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:17:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24333; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:17:02 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0Z01G2W8093A3Z2@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <311A6802@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:15:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:16:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Air Sensors EFI system To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <311A6802@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 10 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >This reminds me of a guy who had an early Air Sensors system (this was about >7 years ago)on a Mitsubishi Starion Group A car and wondered why the thing Does anybody know if the Air Sensors system is still available? I remember hearing about it some years ago. Any address? Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 21:54:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24490; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:46:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24484; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:45:50 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id QAA03608; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:46:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602082146.QAA03608@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 16:39:14 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Revised #10 systems info. After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) UD$459 (6 Cyl) US$499 (8 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) US$689 (6 Cyl) US$724 (8 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel&Ign Mgt.) US$1,500 (6 Cyl) US$1,550 (12 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) US$1,029 (6 Cyl) US$1,069 (8 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - US$550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@aems.com.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 Manufacturer #1 #2 #3 Model TEC II E6 74040A PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline yes yes no Inj. drivers 2 8 4 Additional drivers yes($) Seq. Inj. yes($) no yes($) Fuel Map yes yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 16 Prog. points/RPM 8 8 Total prog. points 64 256 Warm-up Map yes yes yes Idle control yes(GM ICM) no yes(GM ICM) Data logging yes($) yes yes Speed density yes yes yes Mass Air Flow yes($) no no EGO - Closed loop yes yes yes Gen. purpose output yes yes Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no yes yes Ign. map points 64 yes Detonation sensor yes no yes Manufacturer #6 #7 Model Projection SDS PC I/O no no Prog. offline no Inj. drivers Additional drivers Seq. Inj. Fuel Map # fuel maps by RPM Prog. points/RPM Total prog. points Warm-up Map Idle control Data logging Speed density Mass Air Flow EGO - Closed loop Gen. purpose output Ignition control Ign. amp. needed Ign. map points Detonation sensor Manufacturer #8 #8 #8 Model Ign. Mgt. Clubmans Eng. Mgt. Sys. PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline Inj. drivers n/a 1 4 Additional drivers n/a yes (+#) yes (+#) Seq. Inj. n/a no yes Fuel Map n/a yes yes # fuel maps by RPM n/a 16 16 Prog. points/RPM n/a 24 24 Total prog. points n/a 384 384 Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a yes (?) Data logging yes yes yes Speed density n/a yes yes Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a no yes Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no no no Ign. map points 384 384 384 Detonation sensor no no yes Manufacturer #10 #10 Model Wolf2D Wold3D PC I/O no no Both have an LCD/keypad I/O Prog. offline yes yes Inj. drivers 5 5 Current limited Additional drivers 3 3 Seq. Inj. no no 2 bank Fuel Map yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 8 Prog. points/RPM 16 16 Total prog. points 128 128 Warm-up Map yes yes Idle control no no Data logging no no Speed density yes yes Mass Air Flow yes yes EGO - Closed loop no no can display EGO bargraph Gen. purpose output no no Ignition control no yes Ign. amp. needed n/a yes Ign. map points n/a ? Detonation sensor no no Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 22:05:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24536; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:59:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24531; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:59:13 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA04937 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:58:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199602082158.AA04937@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:58:42 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:58:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:53:50 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 3084 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "Hitachi later developed a MAF that measures a portion of the entire air flow ("bypass type"). The advantages include less dirt build up and damage immunity from intake backfiring. A disadvantage is that the reverse air flow is not measured, so if there is a lot of pulsation at the meter, it will cause errors (?)." Not necessarily. The hot-wire principle does not account for which direction air is flowing, so if if air goes in, then some flows back out, it will measure both flows. This is a far larger error than measuring only what went in. "Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this sudden increase in the amount of required air that is going to draw a vacuum?" Let me explain the crux of the problem: if the MAF sensor is located upstream of the throttle body, there will always be a delay during throttle transients. Air is compliant, like a spring. As an extreme but common example, when you go to WOT it takes time for the manifold to fill with air at atmospheric pressure because it was at some level of vacuum just prior to throttle opening. On top of that, the engine is always "draining" the manifold. By the time the MAF sensor "sees" this demand for air fill the manifold(and asked the ECU to provide more fuel), the engine has consumed enough air(and sped up) to cause a lean stumble. The closer the MAF sensor is to the throttle plate(s), the faster its response. However, some of you have correctly pointed out the risk of the MAF sensor picking up intake pulsations as you place it close to the inlet valves. "Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it is on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec flowing through me". MAF sensors need to be calibrated for completely different reasons than do SD systems. MAF sensors need to be calibrated primarily to the airbox they are fitted to in order to learn their transfer function. That transfer function is what converts voltage(or frequency) to kg/hr of air. This has nothing to do with the engine they are fitted to. The airbox determines the flow field in the MAF sensor, which is particulary critical to the transfer function of bypass MAF sensors. "Full field" sensors(like Bosch) are less sensitive, but they do have flow straighteners to help them be a bit more robust at the cost of some flow capacity. It is the acceleration enrichment which must be calibrated to the engine due to throttle transients, and those transients depends greatly on the intake manifold itself, the engine displacement, cam events, and MAF sensor location. This is one parameter that is easily(amd safely) tuned by seat of the pants, and is also why the Mustang magazine car had problems. Someone asked if MAF sensor placement on turbo engine affects thei measurement because the pressure and temperature is different after the compressor. All air must pass through the MAF whether or not its density changes downstream , so placement is a matter of response time, not accuracy. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 22:05:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA24549; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:01:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24544; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:00:58 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA13314 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 8 Feb 96 14:47:17 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA22219; Thu, 8 Feb 96 14:47:14 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA04212; Thu, 8 Feb 96 15:47:13 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07133; Thu, 8 Feb 96 15:40:47 CST Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 15:40:47 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602082140.AA07133@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Phillip, There has been some discussion on this list regarding the subject of sequential vs. a 'batch' method of firing the fuel injectors. You may find some material by using the majordomo server to obtain the archeived messages. (send mail to majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu with just the word 'help' in the body of the message) At WOT (Wide Open Throttle) a properly sized fuel injector will be on almost 90% of the time, so there is little difference between sequential or batch methods. At idle and partial throttle is where you would expect the largest gains in performanace/economy. I have heard figures ranging from 2% to 10% improvements by properly timing the injection on sequential injections. For sequential injection, most common method, is to time the injector to CLOSE with the closing of the intake valve. Would be an interesting experiment to use an engine dyno and modify the software to test these various parameters to see which method produces the best results. I know of one engineer who was startled by the difference when they optomized the timing of a sequential fuel injection system. I just want to get my running! :-) Cheers, Tom "who needs a proof reader" Walter Austin, TX. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 22:07:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA24588; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:06:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24583; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:06:48 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.31] (dialup-1-31.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.31]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA20786 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:06:22 GMT Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:06:22 GMT Message-Id: <199602082206.WAA20786@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Spellcheckers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In message <199602070049.TAA20525@magicnet.magicnet.net> writes: > > > >It's time for the flaming about spell checking, grammar checking, > >etc. to stop. Do Any of you realize 1 of 3 things... 1. This is a DIY_EFI Mail serve, not an english masters free for all? 2. Do you realize how pointless these flames are because no one gives a rat's behind what you who obviously must be the master of everything has to say. 3. Lastly if anyone really cares it's you little group of english bangers. For real users it just trash that you have to delete. For the server owner it's wasted space. And for people that you're picking on it will show them how anal you are. No offence but ain't it the truth everyone? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 22:22:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA24618; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:11:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24613; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:11:27 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.31] (dialup-1-31.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.31]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA20936 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:11:05 GMT Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:11:05 GMT Message-Id: <199602082211.WAA20936@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM TPI system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > If you are electronically-inclined, you can make a fuel injector > energizer with a 555 timer and a driver transistor (I made one > from a basic Stamp). If not, you can get the energizer device > from J.C.Whitneys. Do you have a schematic for a 555 timer based EFI? I think it would be a great system to compare against the PC based one I'm working on. Thanks, Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 22:22:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA24639; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:19:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24634; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:19:30 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.31] (dialup-1-31.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.31]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA21069 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:19:08 GMT Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:19:08 GMT Message-Id: <199602082219.WAA21069@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Electronics suppliers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu What are good places to get electronics stuff? Could you provide me with the names, number, and costs of catalogs plus you personal thoughts on them. I know about digi-key : I've had good experiences with them. But they are a little expensive and don't carry a few things I like (Such as mos-fets and bipolar transistors) Also the have some strange love of national semiconductor. Which is a good company and provides good parts. Archer [Radio shack] : They've got thier good and bad points. They are a tad bit more expensive. And the selection is limited. But after all they are just a few blocks away [1 mile in my case] so you have instant satisfaction. Also they have a knack to have the IC's I need but never the resistors or capacitors I need. They have more diodes than I've ever seen and have never heard of some of the ones they have. If anyone know about a company called ____***ARROW***____ please give me information. They are a good supplier and carry buttloads of stuff. Bye, Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 23:56:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA24883; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:53:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA24878; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:53:15 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I0Z5H8DBDC93AH5W@VCA.GI.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 15:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <311A8CA6@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Thu, 08 Feb 1996 15:52:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 15:52:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-id: <311A8CA6@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 23 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu How about adding vendors that are no longer in business, for historical purposes. For example (quoting neville, neville@verity.com) regarding the Air Sensors system: "i don't think they are still around. i have a system built by Dennis Watkins, who was their lead engineer. He built it after he left, and it looks/works exactly like an Air Sensors system. i purchased it to use on a 1.3L Fiat, but it seemed like it was still calibrated for a big V8. In order to drive it, i had to just steer and brake while my friend in the passenger seat turned the base mixture adjustment in lieu of the throttle! The harness is only set up for 4 injectors, but i'm sure the box will drive 8. When Dennis decided to move on to something else, i got schematics from him. Fred Miranda looked it over, thinking he might buy it from me, prior to implementing his Electromotove system." Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com - From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Feb 8 23:56:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA24874; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:49:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA24869; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:49:25 -0500 Received: from iquest1.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0tkg5b-004XPMC; Thu, 8 Feb 96 18:49 EST Received: from walnut.holli.com by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tkg5c-000B4WC; Thu, 8 Feb 96 18:49 EST Received: from rus-ts2-06.holli.com by walnut.holli.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0tkg38-0009oxC; Thu, 8 Feb 96 18:46 EST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 18:46 EST X-Sender: jwharris@holli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jwharris@holli.com (J.W. Harris) Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >>connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >>second sensor? If I were trying to do this I'd do electronically what the single sensor does on the vehicle - average the singals. Use a low input current op anp to sum the inputs and divide the result by two. The circuit needs to have high input impedance (~2 meg.) and the output must be divided by two (gain of .5 with precision resistors) I'm not sure exactly what this would do the O2 diagnostic when its cold. Ours applay a .45 volt bias to the sensor. When it heats up, the impednace of the sensor drops, overriding the bias. You should be able to run the thing from a single supply but use an op amp and circuitry designed to opeate from a single supply with low input voltages. I forget the name of the parameter of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@eng.delcoelect.com jwharris@holli.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 02:24:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA25239; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 02:01:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25234; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:01:37 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm5-24.magicnet.net [206.104.207.153]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA13680; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:01:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199602090201.VAA13680@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 21:58:28 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 03:40 PM 2/8/96 CST, Tom wrote: >At idle and partial throttle is where you would expect the >largest gains in performanace/economy. I have heard figures >ranging from 2% to 10% improvements by properly timing >the injection on sequential injections. We did a lot of tests on the dyno on exactly this and found NO improvement in power. The reason is simple, you need air, and fuel to burn in it, and if you have the right amounts of each you will get the most power. The economy was another matter altogether. By timing the injection so that there is the minimum time for the fuel/air mixture to sit in the inlet you got the most economy. This is because the droplets coalesce and form larger droplets, which take longer to burn. Hence you need more of them to get all of the air used and thus economy suffers. I was given the parallel of the droplets being like onions, you need to burn off each layer until they are all gone, the bigger the droplet the more layers. >For sequential injection, most common method, is to time >the injector to CLOSE with the closing of the intake >valve. Exactly Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 02:25:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA25261; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 02:09:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25256; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:08:59 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA10402 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:08:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:08:53 -0500 Message-ID: <960208210849_217627157@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: EFI vs. Carb Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey there, Car Craft did an EFI vs. carb engine. They were about equal in running (hp & torque), but the TPI, I think, had a little more at the top end. Now, try to stick some carbs on a twin turbocharged and intercooled V8 and do a comparison. I rest my case! See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 03:30:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA25422; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 03:13:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA25417; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:13:10 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id TAA08653 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:56:18 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Thu, 8 Feb 96 20:10 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Thu, 8 Feb 96 20:00:28 EDT Message-Id: <9601090300.AA18088@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 20:00:26 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199602082219.WAA21069@freenet.msp.mn.us>; from "Jim Staff" at Feb 8, 96 10:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > What are good places to get electronics stuff? Could you provide me with > the names, numbers, and costs of catalogs plus your personal thoughts on > them. Read on... > Archer [Radio shack] : They've got thier good and bad points. Mostly bad. In general, stay away unless you need something at 4:30 on a saturday afternoon... > If anyone knows about a company called ____***ARROW***____ please give me > information. They are a good supplier and carry buttloads of stuff. Arrow is a huge supplier, but generally they don't like to talk to you unless you want to buy large quantites. Their policy is not to accept orders of less than $100 PER ITEM. Ie, you have to buy $100 worth of a single part number. Future/Active Electronics is a good supplier, Future is the industrial (read "quantity") arm, and Active have stores where they sell just about everything in small quantities, bagged and priced accordingly. Like Radio Shack, but no consumer goods (stereos, etc.) and with 1000 times the variety. Active is probably your best bet, they should have a store in most larger cities, and have damn near everything you could want in stock. All I know about their US operation is that they have head office in Boston. Newark Electronics is another large supplier, but again, they are geared to industrial customers, but will sell small quantities, prices are a bit steep, but not too bad. Their catalog has everything including the kitchen sink, (over 1500 pages) and is available free @ 1-800-463-9275 Hamilton Hallmark is another supplier who stocks a lot of parts. America II Electronics specialize in microprocessor related stuff. I could go on with more, but you're better off to do a little research on your own. I'm up in Canada, so I don't have American addresses and phone numbers for most of these places, but you can look them up in the Thomas Registry at your local library. Another good source is any electronics hobbyist magazine, such as Popular Electronics which have zillions of ads for mail order and surplus houses in the back. Most of these companies will send you a catalog for free, just ask... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 03:39:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA25455; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 03:28:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA25450; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:28:26 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id WAA08885; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:28:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602090328.WAA08885@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 22:22:00 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Vendor List - Revised X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >How about adding vendors that are no longer in business, for historical >purposes. > Bryan.. Sounds like a good project so why don't you keep that list up...I'll keep up the current list and with you keeping the "out of business" list going, we'll have all the bases covered.. Cheers Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 06:10:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA25972; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 05:51:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elwood.probe.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA25967; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 00:51:57 -0500 Received: from dial33.probe.net (dial33.probe.net [206.28.166.33]) by elwood.probe.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA06720 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:51:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:51:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199602090551.XAA06720@elwood.probe.net> X-Sender: sparks@pop.probe.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: tom sparks Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I could go on with more, but you're better off to do a little research >on your own. I'm up in Canada, so I don't have American addresses >and phone numbers for most of these places, but you can look them up >in the Thomas Registry at your local library. Another good source... Thomas Registry is online at: http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html VERY handy. Best regards, Thomas Sparks From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 06:35:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA26057; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 06:22:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA26052; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:22:38 -0500 Received: from marvin.rdt.monash.edu.au (marvin.rdt.monash.edu.au [130.194.74.71]) by daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au (8.6.8/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA28181 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:21:50 +1100 From: Angus Mackinnon Received: (angus@localhost) by marvin.rdt.monash.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.4) id RAA18069 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:21:49 +1100 Message-Id: <199602090621.RAA18069@marvin.rdt.monash.edu.au> Subject: Exhaust Gas Analysers ? To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:21:48 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 475 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Something slightly off the topic to waste some bandwidth.... I am in the market ( depending on price :-)) for Exhaust gas analyser that is capable of giving readings for CO, O2, HC and NOx. I am after people's opinions in regard to brands, quality and pricing. Names of distributors or manufacturers would also be appreciated. Thanks, Angus angus@rdt.monash.edu.au P.S. As I'm from Australia, English is my second language. Please excuse any grammatical errors. :-). From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 06:35:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA26064; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 06:23:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA26059; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:23:27 -0500 Received: from port79.fishnet.net (port79.fishnet.net [205.216.133.193]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10693 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:23:16 GMT Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:23:16 GMT Message-Id: <199602082223.WAA10693@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Let me explain the crux of the problem: if the MAF sensor is located >upstream of the throttle body, there will always be a delay during >throttle transients. Air is compliant, like a spring. As an extreme >but common example, when you go to WOT it takes time for the manifold >to fill with air at atmospheric pressure because it was at some level >of vacuum just prior to throttle opening. On top of that, the engine >is always "draining" the manifold. By the time the MAF sensor "sees" >this demand for air fill the manifold(and asked the ECU to provide >more fuel), the engine has consumed enough air(and sped up) to cause a >lean stumble. correct me if I'm wrong. when you go from hi vac to WOT, the only air to enter the cylinders is previously measured air between the throttle and the MAF and air passing through the MAF. So the only error would be in not measuring that volume between T-body and MAF. Unless the distance is large I don't see it as a problem. In my limited experience in tuning with MAF (1 car, switched from speed density to MAF) I found the required acceleration enrichments dropped and the general drivability improved. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 07:59:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26243; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 07:43:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26238; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 02:43:19 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:09:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 23:42:50 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9602090742.utk12825@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 microprocessors. The first processor would run the ignition system. It would have inputs from crank and cam sensors (no missing tooth in the crank senor for syncronization) and from the map sensor. It would also receive 6 bits of data from the master controller and 4 bits of control information. There would be two seperate (and identical) fuel injection systems. Each would control 4 fuel injectors. For a 12 cylinder engine, one more fuel injection subsystem could be added without change to the master controller. The only change would be in which crank trigger pulse was the "first" pulse for it. All of these subsystems would receive 6 bits of data and 4 bits of control information from the master controller. All of the fuel injection systems would receive the same data, but it would be different (of course) than the data system for the ignition module. These modules would be fed data directly from the various inputs that they need to calculate the correct amount of fuel. The master controller would cordinate everything for the other modules. It would receive data from the cam position sensor (it needs to know how fast the engine is running and if it is running at all), the knock sensor, temperature, oil pressure, and others. It would not be directly controlling either the ignition or the fuel injection. Those modules run on there own. It would be able to tell the ignition system to advance or retard the timing a number of degrees through the data and control information. It would also tell the ignition system if it should run or not. It interfaces with the fuel injection modules in much the same way. It tells then when to run, and it can tell it to richen or lean the mixture by a certain percentage. If the master controller tells it to lean out the mixture outside of the boundaries for the mixture, the fuel injection controlers can set an error flag and keep running rich. Blubbering rich being preferable to "piston melting" lean any day. This system would not use any type of data bus. Do to the small about of data going to the sub modules (and data does not go to the master controller from the sub modules), there is no need for a data bus. Also, each controller runs its own program and deals with learning on its own. One problem with this idea is that to change all of the programs (say to redefine the data), you would have to pull all 4 eeproms. Truthfully, this I can live with. Another advantage is that you could build and test the ignition system before you had to make the rest of the system. This would at least let you know that your timing information from the cam and crank senors was as you predicted. Also, there is no shortages of input capture and output compare ports. One question I do have how should I buffer the various signals that need to go to multiple modules? Would I have to? Would the standard input filtering be enough of a buffer to feed up to 4 inputs simultainiously? I would love to here everyones ideas and opinions on this idea. I do beleive I will be looking into it somemore. And if this idea was brought up in the past and well and throughly shot down, I appologize for bringing it up again. Thanks for you input. Clint ccorbin@intel7.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 08:02:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA26268; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 07:49:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix13.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26263; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 02:49:25 -0500 Received: from by ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA08953; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:49:22 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:49:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199602090749.XAA08953@ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Exhaust Gas Analysers ? To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >Something slightly off the topic to waste some bandwidth.... > >I am in the market ( depending on price :-)) for Exhaust gas analyser >that is capable of giving readings for CO, O2, HC and NOx. > >I am after people's opinions in regard to brands, quality and >pricing. Names of distributors or manufacturers would also be >appreciated. > > >Thanks, > >Angus > >angus@rdt.monash.edu.au > >P.S. As I'm from Australia, English is my second language. >Please excuse any grammatical errors. :-). > you mean american english . From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 09:27:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA26412; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:05:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26407; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 04:05:42 -0500 Received: from by ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id BAA19817; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:05:37 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:05:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199602090905.BAA19817@ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 >microprocessors. The first processor would run the ignition system. It >would have inputs from crank and cam sensors (no missing tooth in the crank >senor for syncronization) and from the map sensor. It would also receive >6 bits of data from the master controller and 4 bits of control information. > >There would be two seperate (and identical) fuel injection systems. Each >would control 4 fuel injectors. For a 12 cylinder engine, one more fuel >injection subsystem could be added without change to the master controller. >The only change would be in which crank trigger pulse was the "first" pulse >for it. All of these subsystems would receive 6 bits of data and 4 bits of >control information from the master controller. All of the fuel injection >systems would receive the same data, but it would be different (of course) >than the data system for the ignition module. These modules would be >fed data directly from the various inputs that they need to calculate >the correct amount of fuel. > >The master controller would cordinate everything for the other modules. It >would receive data from the cam position sensor (it needs to know how fast >the engine is running and if it is running at all), the knock sensor, >temperature, oil pressure, and others. It would not be directly controlling >either the ignition or the fuel injection. Those modules run on there own. >It would be able to tell the ignition system to advance or retard the timing >a number of degrees through the data and control information. It would also >tell the ignition system if it should run or not. It interfaces with the >fuel injection modules in much the same way. It tells then when to run, and >it can tell it to richen or lean the mixture by a certain percentage. If >the master controller tells it to lean out the mixture outside of the >boundaries for the mixture, the fuel injection controlers can set an error >flag and keep running rich. Blubbering rich being preferable to "piston >melting" lean any day. > >This system would not use any type of data bus. Do to the small about of data >going to the sub modules (and data does not go to the master controller from >the sub modules), there is no need for a data bus. Also, each controller >runs its own program and deals with learning on its own. One problem with >this idea is that to change all of the programs (say to redefine the data), >you would have to pull all 4 eeproms. Truthfully, this I can live with. >Another advantage is that you could build and test the ignition system before >you had to make the rest of the system. This would at least let you know >that your timing information from the cam and crank senors was as you >predicted. Also, there is no shortages of input capture and output compare >ports. > >One question I do have how should I buffer the various signals that need to >go to multiple modules? Would I have to? Would the standard input filtering >be enough of a buffer to feed up to 4 inputs simultainiously? I would love >to here everyones ideas and opinions on this idea. I do beleive I will be >looking into it somemore. And if this idea was brought up in the past and >well and throughly shot down, I appologize for bringing it up again. >Thanks for you input. > >Clint >ccorbin@intel7.intel.com > tie all 4 micros to a 4 port memory and youll have a common data and program pool ; this has been done before especialy in the old days when ups ran at 1 megahertz. question : who uses intel ups in automotive or engine control applications. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 14:04:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA26933; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:46:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26927; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:46:40 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA23240 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:46:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091346.AA23240@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:46:38 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:46:38 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Feb 96 21:58:28 EST." <199602090201.VAA13680@magicnet.magicnet.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 08:46:36 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > The economy was another matter altogether. By timing the injection so that > there is the minimum time for the fuel/air mixture to sit in the inlet you > got the most economy. This is because the droplets coalesce and form larger > droplets, which take longer to burn. Hence you need more of them to get all > of the air used and thus economy suffers. I was given the parallel of the > droplets being like onions, you need to burn off each layer until they are > all gone, the bigger the droplet the more layers. Will injecting fuel onto a closed, warm intake valve provide any benefit, by increasing the vaporization of the fuel? Instead of coalescing, might the fuel droplets evaporate better? Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 14:14:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA27101; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:00:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA27096; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:00:20 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA27668 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:00:18 -0500 Received: from bounce.civil.mtu.edu (root@bounce.civil.mtu.edu [141.219.20.235]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA26825 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:00:17 -0500 From: Timothy Coste Received: from gradlab10.me.mtu.edu (tlcoste@gradlab10.me.mtu.edu [141.219.26.80]) by bounce.civil.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-R1.8) with ESMTP id IAA12231 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:58:51 -0500 Received: (from tlcoste@localhost) by gradlab10.me.mtu.edu (8.6.12/MTU-C1.3) id JAA22876 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:00:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:00:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091400.JAA22876@gradlab10.me.mtu.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Content-Length: 1672 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just had to jump in on this one, since my research is mainly focussed on this aspect of fuel injection... The best time to fire an injector relative to the intake valve event is engine/injector dependent. At part throttle of course. As mentioned, at/near WOT, injector duty cycle is so high, it hardly matters when the injector fires. At light throttle, my understanding of industry (US industry at least) is that the common goal is to spray the fuel directly on the (closed) intake valve. The idea is that the hot valve will vaporize the fuel while waiting for the valve to open. Then, with pure vapor, the whole onion peeling (a good analogy) idea is not needed. Gasoline engines don't like burning droplets, especially large ones. Diesels on the other hand... Anyway, assuming you can target the injector accurately on the valve, and that the valve is hot, and the injector spray is only of average quality...hot valve evaporation seems to be best. Now, if you can't get to the valve, or possibly (some of my research) your injector droplets are fine enough already, then it's best to spray so that air flow is high (to keep droplets off the walls and coalescing) and port residence is minimized. This ensures, as Peter mentioned, that the "onion" is as small as possible. Anyway, those are some of the principles and, as usual, you can't generalize for all engines. To put this in to perspective, if you aren't a major auto manufacturer meeting government regs, fire the dang thing whenever you prefer. It's not THAT big a deal. Now, lean transients on acceleration...there's one you should compensate for... Tim Coste tlcoste@mtu.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 15:40:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27547; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:27:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27542; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:27:28 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA23544 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:26:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091526.AA23544@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:26:44 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:26:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:25:51 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1532 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "For sequential injection, most common method, is to time the injector to CLOSE with the closing of the intake valve." No, the most common method, among OEMS, is to inject while the valve is closed. The onion analogy mentioned in a later post is a good one once you get fuel into the chamber, but injecting onto a hot inlet valve vaporizes a majority(not all) of the fuel before it gets into the chamber. Also, some fuel which has piled up on the valve without vaporizing gets sheared as it is dragged past the valve and seat, reducing droplet size significantly. As good as injectors have become, they still inject droplets, not vapor. Injecting past an open valve will introduce these droplets into the chamber untouched, which, as the onion analogy correctly describes, take longer to burn. Furthermore, there is risk of washing the oil coating off of the chamber walls during open valve injection, which puts engine durability(rings, pistons, bore finish) at risk. "correct me if I'm wrong. when you go from hi vac to WOT, the only air to enter the cylinders is previously measured air between the throttle and the MAF and air passing through the MAF. So the only error would be in not measuring that volume between T-body and MAF. Unless the distance is large I don't see it as a problem." You are correct, except that the volume between the throttle body and the MAF is usually large enough to be a problem. Usually, that is. Some applications are better then others when it comes to this phenomenon. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 15:40:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27580; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:31:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27575; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:31:11 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA09926; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:31:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:31:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602091531.IAA09926@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Cc: arthurok@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 01:05 AM 2/9/96 -0800, you wrote: >question : who uses intel ups in automotive or engine control >applications. Answer: Ford: 8061 (a custom variant of the 8096) Bosch, 8051, 8052, 80515 (Siemens) and 80196 .. some boxes with both a '51 and '96 Siemens, using their 80C166 and C167 variants of the intel core (and others I'm sure) Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 15:57:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27649; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:47:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27644; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:47:56 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA23246 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:47:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091547.AA23246@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:47:35 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:47:35 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Feb 96 01:05:37 PST." <199602090905.BAA19817@ix5.ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 10:47:33 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > question : who uses intel ups in automotive or engine control > applications. "ups?" If you mean CPUs, it's public knowledge that Ford uses Intel chips. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 15:57:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27638; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:44:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27632; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:44:10 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <177734-1>; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:44:06 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22746; Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:35:23 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma022744; Fri Feb 9 10:35:20 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03514; Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:34:01 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA15360; Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:43:38 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:43:38 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9602091543.AA15360@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EFI vs. Carb Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Car Craft did an EFI vs. carb engine. They were about equal in running (hp & > torque) ... Hot Boat magazine built up a 502CI marine engine and dyno tuned it with a Holley on top. Then they removed the carb and intake and bolted on a Cutler FI system, and immediately picked up another 25 HP. And we all know that the EFI engine will start and idle much better than a carb engine. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 15:58:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27658; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:52:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailhost.pipex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27653; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:51:54 -0500 Received: from benjy (actually 194.61.124.193) by pipe.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:42:49 +0000 Received: by benjy (5.45/5.17) id AA00596; Fri, 9 Feb 96 15:30:39 GMT From: mpm@impltd.com (Martin Mayhead) Message-Id: <9602091530.AA00596@benjy> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system - Who uses intel ups To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 15:30:39 GMT In-Reply-To: <199602090905.BAA19817@ix5.ix.netcom.com>; from "ARTHUR OKUN" at Feb 9, 96 1:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd in the UK make a range of ignition and fuel injection/engine management boxes for the aftermarket/club racer based on the Intel 80C196KC running at 16 & 20 Mhz. This chip is a commercial development of the 8061 (or is it 8065) developed for Ford and used in their EEC and EDIS modules. The 80196 at 20Mhz is an approx. 4 mips processor with onboard A/D, timers and event capture/scheduling hardware. If your question was aimed at discovering the pitfalls and/or advantages of Intel uC's (in particular the 80196) I would be happy to discuss this further - it is actually very straightforward to use and well documented by Intel (yes that surprised me too). Regards, Martin Mayhead (mpm@impltd.com) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 16:32:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA28054; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:19:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA28047; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:19:10 -0500 Received: from port52.fishnet.net (port52.fishnet.net [205.216.133.252]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA30676 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:18:55 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:18:55 GMT Message-Id: <199602090818.IAA30676@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Now, >if you can't get to the valve, or possibly (some of my research) >your injector droplets are fine enough already, then it's best to >spray so that air flow is high (to keep droplets off the walls >and coalescing) and port residence is minimized. Tim, For those of us who can't hit the valve or have none, any tips on injector or anything else that would promote a fine spray? As for WOT duty cycles, you can't assume they are high. An engine with a torque peak at 5krpm and 80% duty cycle will have a duty cycle something less than 40% at 2.5krpm. Obviously haphazard injection timing could hurt you here, esp if you can't hit the valve. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 17:06:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA28335; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:56:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA28330; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:56:11 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13881; Fri, 9 Feb 96 08:53:49 PST Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01I1057J88HC003BFJ@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Fri, 09 Feb 1996 08:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.960209115341.416; 09 Feb 96 11:56:03 +0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:50:45 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers To: diy_efi Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 22:19:08 +0000 (GMT) > From: Jim Staff > Subject: Electronics suppliers > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > What are good places to get electronics stuff? Could you provide me with > the names, number, and costs of catalogs plus you personal thoughts on them. > > I know about digi-key : I've had good experiences with them. But they are a > little expensive and don't carry a few things I like (Such as mos-fets and > bipolar transistors) Also the have some strange love of national semiconductor. > Which is a good company and provides good parts. > Archer [Radio shack] : They've got thier good and bad points. > They are a tad bit more expensive. And the selection is limited. But after all > they are just a few blocks away [1 mile in my case] so you have instant > satisfaction. Also they have a knack to have the IC's I need but never the > resistors or capacitors I need. They have more diodes than I've ever seen and > have never heard of some of the ones they have. > > If anyone know about a company called ____***ARROW***____ please give me > information. They are a good supplier and carry buttloads of stuff. > > Bye, > Jim Staff > Jim, Arrow is an industrial supplier, like Pioneer, Schweber, et al. These folks sell primarily to established, commercial accounts and usually do not court the "hobby" trade. They usually have significant minimum order $ policies. IMO you will not do too much better than DigiKey, all things considered. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 17:43:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA28452; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA28444; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:29:51 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA11456 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:16:42 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:30 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:22:58 EDT Message-Id: <9601091722.AA18101@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 10:22:54 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9602090742.utk12825@INTEL7.intel.com>; from "Clinton L. Corbin" at Feb 8, 96 11:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Clint Corbin wrote: > I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 > microprocessors. The first processor would run the ignition system. It I am working (slowly) on an idea like this, but not quite so ambitious, I think 4 processors is a little overkill. My system will use 2 for now, one for ignition and one for fuel. I know some guys who did a natural gas injection system using 4 processors, but only 2 actually ran the engine, the other 2 were strictly for data aquisition and communications for developement purposes only. > There would be two seperate (and identical) fuel injection systems. Each > would control 4 fuel injectors. For a 12 cylinder engine, one more fuel > injection subsystem could be added without change to the master controller. Por Que? You could just add more injector drivers, unless you want full sequential. Seems to me the software would be a nightmare for this kind of system. > Another advantage is that you could build and test the ignition system before > you had to make the rest of the system. This would at least let you know This is exactly what I had in mind, and after I get it running with the basic system, move on to DIS... > One question I do have how should I buffer the various signals that need to > go to multiple modules? Would I have to? Would the standard input filtering > be enough of a buffer to feed up to 4 inputs simultainiously? I would love Motorola was good enough to include the SPI interface port on the 'HC11. This thing is extremely useful, essentially a synchronous serial port running at 1Mbit/s! It can be set up as a master or slave, requires only 2 wires to transmit data, and you can hang as many devices as you have chip select lines for on the bus. You could use a low impedence wire-AND type of scheme where the comm lines are just pulled up to VCC, and each device has an open collector transistor to pull the line low. Noise is basically impossible on this type of system. Also, the SPI is extremely easy to use, you just store a byte into a register and it sends it out serially while receiving a byte from the slave at the same time. As far as the code goes, you could use the 'HC11E2 which has 2k of EEPROM instead of EPROM. This should be plenty of code space, since you're splitting up the operating system into several parts anyway. You can put a header on the circuit board, tied to the RS232 port on the 'HC11, and reprogram the EEPROM any time with a laptop. Don't even have to pull the chip to erase or reprogram it. Regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 18:01:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA28567; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:52:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA28562; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:52:22 -0500 Received: from ptp11.tecinfo.com (ptp11.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.233]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08117 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:46:29 -0600 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:46:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199602091746.LAA08117@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:51 PM 2/8/96 -0600, Thomas Sparks wrote: > >Thomas Registry is online at: >http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html Is there a "new user" pass word and login id? Tried and failed. GMD > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 18:19:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA28622; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:06:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA28617; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:06:36 -0500 Received: from ptp11.tecinfo.com (ptp11.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.233]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA08140 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:00:43 -0600 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:00:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199602091800.MAA08140@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:42 PM 2/8/96 PST, Clint wrote: >I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 >microprocessors. Clint, I bet you play doom on the nightmare setting :{} What do you plan to gain by using 4 microprocessors? good luck fella, GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 18:45:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA28709; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:35:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA28704; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:35:49 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA09494 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:35:40 -0500 Received: from bounce.civil.mtu.edu (root@bounce.civil.mtu.edu [141.219.20.235]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA12924 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:35:38 -0500 From: Timothy Coste Received: from gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (tlcoste@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu [141.219.26.70]) by bounce.civil.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-R1.8) with ESMTP id NAA18639 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:34:09 -0500 Received: (from tlcoste@localhost) by gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (8.6.12/MTU-C1.3) id NAA04341 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:35:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:35:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091835.NAA04341@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Content-Length: 1979 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To Fred's question about improving spray... All I can say is that we use specially prepared injectors. Pneumatic assist injectors have been around for a long time. From what I've seen so far however, their spray angles are too huge even given the very small (< 10 micron) droplets. Maybe if you were certain air flow was high during injection, they could work. Easy concept and assembly, but you need pressurized air. We also work with some proprietary injectors here which are still undergoing development. These produce relatively fine (about 30 micron I believe) sprays in excelently controlable patterns. I read (in SAE?) that Ford is building a new injector facility...maybe they have something cool about to go into production??? Other than that... I believe I've seen very high pressures (which I guess would require shorter duty cycle times) causing more turbulence at the nozzle and therefore better atomization. This is something one could tinker with at the home level. I don't know for sure the effect of boosting pressure on angles though. I think that next time I run my test engine (a SEFI 4 cylinder) maybe I'll try fine spray injectors and switch the leads between injectors to get them to fire on an open rather than closed valve. Hmmmm, what was that firing order... As to real duty cycles... I guess I didn't consider full load-lower speed. I'm not really sure what they are (duty cycle that is) at those conditions. I baby my engine (head is swiss-cheesed with sensors) and rarely see over half of max torque. If the thing grenades now...no Ph.D.! :( In general, I've seen increased load- speed reduces the effects of fuel prep. Engines hotter, more turbulence, etc. so I still think it's less important as power output increases. I'll stop rambling now...need to actually get some work done. BTW...sorry, but our Unix mail program has no spell checker...try editing your already typed mail in vi! Tim Coste tlcoste@mtu.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 19:13:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA28794; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:59:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA28789; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:59:49 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm2-11.magicnet.net [206.104.207.44]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA22338 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:59:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199602091859.NAA22338@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 14:56:45 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 >microprocessors. By heck lad, you really know how to do things the hard way don't you. I'm sure 1 68HC11 will handle it Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 19:57:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA29088; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 19:45:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA29083; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:45:23 -0500 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA11840; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:45:29 -0600 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:45:29 -0600 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199602091746.LAA08117@ns.tecinfo.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> >>Thomas Registry is online at: >>http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html > >Is there a "new user" pass word and login id? > >Tried and failed. >GMD George, Try http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/adfinder.html That page has a register option for new users. -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 20:27:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA29168; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:11:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29163; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:11:50 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA12397; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:11:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:11:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602092011.NAA12397@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers Cc: gmd@ns.tecinfo.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:46 AM 2/9/96 -0600, you wrote: >>Thomas Registry is online at: >>http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html > >Is there a "new user" pass word and login id? No, you just need to register .. start at the top of the site and register (start at the top by eliminateing the URL after the 8000!) Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 20:31:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA29279; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:20:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hplms26.hpl.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29273; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:20:26 -0500 Received: from dilbert.hpl.hp.com by hplms26.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.36.108.11 $/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1S) id AA064867201; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:20:02 -0800 Received: by dilbert.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA193177084; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:18:04 -0800 From: Gerald Luiz Message-Id: <199602092018.AA193177084@dilbert.hpl.hp.com> Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 12:18:04 PST In-Reply-To: <199602091400.JAA22876@gradlab10.me.mtu.edu>; from "Timothy Coste" at Feb 9, 96 9:00 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everyone. I am pretty new to the list so I have just been following along to see what is going on. This last thread has been interesting about the droplet size. There is that company (in Australia I think) that makes the injector that is pressurized with air, supposedly to get a smaller droplet size. Does anyone have any experience/comments about it? Gerald Luiz gluiz@hpl.hp.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 21:16:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA29460; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:58:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29455; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:58:06 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA11336 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:57:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199602092057.AA11336@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:57:10 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:57:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:57:03 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 347 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "I read (in SAE?) that Ford is building a new injector facility...maybe they have something cool about to go into production???" Maybe ;) BTW, there is another source of pressurized air available "for free" on any engine. You just have to remember that by "pressurized" you mean that a pressure differential exists. Toyota do this already, From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 21:24:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29503; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:12:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from camins.camosun.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29498; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:11:55 -0500 Received: from camins.Camosun.BC.CA by camins.Camosun.BC.CA (PMDF V5.0-4 #3258) id <01I10DYZ3TC0004AOS@camins.Camosun.BC.CA>; Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:07:14 -0700 (PDT) From: mecheng9312@camins.Camosun.BC.CA Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers In-reply-to: <199602091746.LAA08117@ns.tecinfo.com> To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: > At 11:51 PM 2/8/96 -0600, Thomas Sparks wrote: > > > >Thomas Registry is online at: > >http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html > > Is there a "new user" pass word and login id? > > Tried and failed. > GMD > > > There should be a set-up of new account or something of the like in the Web site. It's been a while since I used the Thomas Registry and I remember when I tried it the first time I had problems. Input the information it asks for and a new account/username will automatically be set up for you to use anytime. Make sure all lines are filled out in the application or else I think you'll have problems getting in. Later, Jason A. White. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 21:43:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29570; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:28:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29565; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:28:47 -0500 Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA02284; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:28:45 -0500 Date: 09 Feb 96 16:20:05 EST From: Jeff Hansen <103600.3364@compuserve.com> To: "\"The List\"" Subject: RE: Electronics suppliers Message-ID: <960209212005_103600.3364_IHI135-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > What are good places to get electronics stuff? Could you provide me with > the names, number, and costs of catalogs plus you personal thoughts on them. Mouser Electronics is a good source for electronic parts. It is very much like Digi-Key. Home Page: http://www.mouser.com Sales and Service Phone Number: 1-800-346-6873 E-mail orders: sales@mouser.com No minimum order for USA, Canada, Mexico. Later - Jeff Hansen From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 21:43:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29563; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:28:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.bogo.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29553; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:27:16 -0500 Received: from sian.bogo.co.uk (sian.bogo.co.uk [193.112.165.22]) by mail.bogo.co.uk (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA08100 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:59:18 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:59:18 GMT Message-Id: <199602091859.SAA08100@mail.bogo.co.uk> X-Sender: sian@mail.bogo.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: sian@mail.bogo.co.uk (RAGHBIR SIAN) Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >At 03:40 PM 2/8/96 CST, Tom wrote: > >>At idle and partial throttle is where you would expect the >>largest gains in performanace/economy. I have heard figures >>ranging from 2% to 10% improvements by properly timing >>the injection on sequential injections. > At 21:58 -0500 08/02/96, Peter Wales wrote: >We did a lot of tests on the dyno on exactly this and found NO improvement >in power. The reason is simple, you need air, and fuel to burn in it, and if >you have the right amounts of each you will get the most power. > >The economy was another matter altogether. By timing the injection so that >there is the minimum time for the fuel/air mixture to sit in the inlet you >got the most economy. This is because the droplets coalesce and form larger >droplets, which take longer to burn. Hence you need more of them to get all >of the air used and thus economy suffers. I was given the parallel of the >droplets being like onions, you need to burn off each layer until they are >all gone, the bigger the droplet the more layers. > > >>For sequential injection, most common method, is to time >>the injector to CLOSE with the closing of the intake >>valve. > >Exactly > Peter may i ask you how this particular research was carried out (i mean on an Engine dyno or Chassis dyno)? The reason i ask this is because you CANNOT quantify any results without looking into mixture preparation, temperature's of the inlet valve, fuel, inlet manifold wall, port velocity and also the differential of pressures in the inlet ports, Combustion chamber and the exhaust ports, preparation of air prior to fuel injection, fuel droplet size.............. also how the engine air is polled (Queing)........ i could carry on but have decided to stop. You said that there were No improvements in power Well i must say different. I carried out some (well alot of) research on this subject from a combustion point of view. I saw a reduction in harshness (uneven combustion) and INCREASE in Power (Torque) when you FINISHED or JUST FINISH injecting the fuel just before the inlet valve started to open. I am also assuming that you did your tests at a steady state. Test done in steady state only sometimes give you an increase, but mostly show NO increase in power. The only way to see the effects of the above is to be in constant TRANSIENTS which is were our engines spend 80% of their time. I cannot say alot more than this as i am contractually bound but if you would like me to expand on this then i will certainly try my best within my constraints. The other thing that really gets up my nose is when people say that they have an increase in power but no increase in torque. These two items are interelated. I do beg your pardon for any spelling or typing errors made. Regards R.S.Sian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Raghbir Sian Engine Control and Combustion Analyst "As Always A ***CONTROL*** Freak" A committee is a group of the unwilling, chosen from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.... Anonymous Life is just one damned thing after another... Joseph Heller Time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum involved. E-mail: sian@mail.bogo.co.uk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Feb 9 23:13:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA00437; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 22:59:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00432; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:59:15 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm6-24.magicnet.net [206.104.207.185]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA16065 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:58:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199602092258.RAA16065@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 18:56:03 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu The tests were run on an engine dyno. The procedure was to run the test at a given rpm, measure the power and then change from batch to sequential injection. In each case the fuelling was optimised for peak power at that RPM. It made no difference. However, the fuelling requirements, if different, always gave better economy on sequential injection. We were only looking for power. >The reason i ask this is because you CANNOT quantify any results without >looking into mixture preparation, temperature's of the inlet valve, fuel snip I didn't quantify them, I simply said that you didn't get more power. I wasn't really looking for economy, but being an inquisitive sort of character (some people call me nosey) I wanted to find out what and why, so I tried it and the results were not defineable enough. This is because all testing was carried out at WOT and on the dyno we used, part throttle positioning was not sufficiently repeatable so we didn't use it. >Well i must say different. >I carried out some (well alot of) research on this subject from a combustion >point of view. I saw a reduction in harshness (uneven combustion) and >INCREASE in Power (Torque) when you FINISHED or JUST FINISH injecting the >fuel just before the inlet valve started to open. I didn't alter the injection timing, just the mode. > >I am also assuming that you did your tests at a steady state. Test done in >steady state only sometimes give you an increase, but mostly show NO >increase in power. Thats what I found > >The only way to see the effects of the above is to be in constant TRANSIENTS >which is were our engines spend 80% of their time. Now I'm getting confused. Why try and define economy for a transient which is not defined. On that dyno, we couldn't have reproduced a transient, never mind measured the power developed during it. How do you define power during a transient? HP is a function of torque and RPM and if the RPM is changing what does the answer mean? Despite your willingness to disagree with me Sian, I don't think we do. You are measuring under one set of parameters and I under another. I still say that it doesn't matter whether you use sequential of batch injection, the power won't change. I'm talking about *power* ie 300HP at 6000RPM on WOT, not what happens at 1800 RPM on 1/4 throttle. That ain't power, thats pussy footing :) Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 03:23:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA01097; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 03:11:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01092; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 22:11:13 -0500 Received: from 1432.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip9.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.49]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA14199; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:08:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:08:30 -0700 From: john a carroll Message-Id: <199602100308.UAA14199@wave.sheridan.wy.us> Apparently-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 04:09:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA01183; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:02:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01178; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:02:10 -0500 Received: from 1432.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip5.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.45]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15483 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:04:46 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 20:57:00 PST From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) To: DIY_EFI Subject: format Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This suggestion could set off a firestorm. God help me if I should misspell a word. After a thread has run for a few exchanges, one has good recall of the original thought. I suggest that text be added at the TOP of responses to allow one to skip rereading all that went befor. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 04:32:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA01234; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:27:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nash.pubnix.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01229; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:27:08 -0500 Received: from port1095.pubnix.net (port1095.pubnix.net [199.84.157.95]) by nash.pubnix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13439 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:27:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199602100427.XAA13439@nash.pubnix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mark Hillier" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:26:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >I could go on with more, but you're better off to do a little research > >on your own. I'm up in Canada, so I don't have American addresses > >and phone numbers for most of these places, but you can look them up > >in the Thomas Registry at your local library. Another good source... > > Thomas Registry is online at: > http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html > > VERY handy. > And *very* password protected. If it is anything like the printed version you have to have some very deep pockets to afford this kind of things. Practically speaking, you have to be buying *lots* of stuff ALL the time for something like the Thomas Registry to be worth it (IMHO) Mark Hillier HVW Technologies From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 05:01:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA01297; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:58:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01292; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:58:29 -0500 Received: from port29.fishnet.net (port29.fishnet.net [205.216.133.229]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA15073 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:58:17 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:58:17 GMT Message-Id: <199602092058.UAA15073@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >BTW, there is another source of pressurized air available "for free" > on any engine. You just have to remember that by "pressurized" you > mean that a pressure differential exists. Toyota do this already, this reminds me, Mazda uses this in their rotarys. there is a small port located just below the injector nozzle which leads to a port upstream of the throttle. this introduces air to the fuel in a small chamber befor it reaches the port runner, at which point it hits a perforated disk in the air stream that further atomizes the fuel. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 05:08:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01334; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:07:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01329; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:07:10 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA22790 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:07:09 -0500 Received: from bounce.civil.mtu.edu (root@bounce.civil.mtu.edu [141.219.20.235]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA19912 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:07:09 -0500 From: Timothy Coste Received: from gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (tlcoste@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu [141.219.26.70]) by bounce.civil.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-R1.8) with ESMTP id AAA25232 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:05:41 -0500 Received: (from tlcoste@localhost) by gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (8.6.12/MTU-C1.3) id AAA21115 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:07:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:07:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199602100507.AAA21115@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Injector Phasing... Content-Length: 2096 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Boy, I really hate (I think) to get into this one but... I believe Peter and Sian are saying the same thing, but from totally different perspectives. Peter is concerned with WOT...Sian is (I think, since hie research sounds similar to mine) concerned with day-to-day driveability. There's no way you can meet emissions regulations and customer (i.e.- consumer) satisfaction without being extremely concerned with transients, not to mention cold-start/ warm-up strategy. Increasing cycle-to-cycle variability, increasing efficiency at part-throttle, etc. (COVimep, transient response, etc) are all concerns of manufacturers, not tuners/racers. Show me a racer who minds a miniscule off-idle stutter versus 20hp and a 1000ppm increase in HC and I'll show you a big three engineer riding with a racing team. :) If you care about cyclic variability and such, WOT is something you'll cherish until Big Brother (or the Euro equivalent) mandates WOT testing (coming to a theater near you). For USA readers, be VERY happy uncle sam (no Caps for modern gov't) lets WOT go for now! I'll stop discussing this unless there is a reply directly to my comments since this is getting way off of the diy category. If you care enough about COVimep, transients, and cold starts, you're working for an auto manufacturer and not in your garage. Or your WAY too optimistic about your 4 micro-processor's having nothing to do during idle times. :) Sorry, I really enjoy my own humor late at night too much. Glossary of Terms COVimep - coefficent of variation of indicated mean effective pressure...a measure of cyclic variability in an engine. ppm -parts per million HC -hydrocarbon (fuel) emissions WOT -wide open throttle Big Brother-governments everywhere Euro -European, from the new-world point of view -I could go on, but I've worn out my own funny bone. I'm killing myself. If you want more, you're in worse shape than I. Tim Coste tlcoste@mtu.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 05:26:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01383; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:19:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01378; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:19:14 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA22883 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:19:12 -0500 Received: from bounce.civil.mtu.edu (root@bounce.civil.mtu.edu [141.219.20.235]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA20675 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:19:12 -0500 From: Timothy Coste Received: from gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (tlcoste@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu [141.219.26.70]) by bounce.civil.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-R1.8) with ESMTP id AAA25273 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:17:44 -0500 Received: (from tlcoste@localhost) by gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (8.6.12/MTU-C1.3) id AAA21280 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:19:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:19:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199602100519.AAA21280@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: format Content-Length: 916 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Personally, I prefer that, if you feel you have to quote earlier messages, you add your text at the end. That seems to be the norm, as you are _adding_ (I hope) to a previous discussion. Text in the front gets lost to me until I go to the end of a message, see no addition, and then back-track to the beginning to pick out whether the specific editor adds <, or : or ? to a quoted message. Ah, do you think my ? is an addition or a question? (answer-it's a question.) IMHO, people will reply however they want dependent upon their mood, editor, etc. All I know is, vi sucks. Reply however it's easiest...if yo have something useful to say, I'll figure it out (spelling errors or not). Tim Coste tlcoste@mtu.edu Glossary (I forgot) IMHO - In my humble opinion vi - Visual editor...UNIX left-over that my mailer uses yo - A spelling error I caught after the fact...means "you" From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 05:52:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01445; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:45:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01438; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:45:06 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis0-p13.everett.net [205.134.193.77]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA21574 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 22:46:03 -0800 Message-ID: <311C310C.598A@everett.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 21:45:48 -0800 From: Johnny Organization: Johnny Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b6a (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers References: <199602100427.XAA13439@nash.pubnix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Mark Hillier wrote: > > > >I could go on with more, but you're better off to do a little research > > >on your own. I'm up in Canada, so I don't have American addresses > > >and phone numbers for most of these places, but you can look them up > > >in the Thomas Registry at your local library. Another good source... > > > > Thomas Registry is online at: > > http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html > > > > VERY handy. > > > And *very* password protected. If it is anything like the printed > version you have to have some very deep pockets to afford this kind > of things. Practically speaking, you have to be buying *lots* of > stuff ALL the time for something like the Thomas Registry to be worth > it (IMHO) Mark, it is free if you just register. Hit the root link first: http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/ Then you will get a password. Keep in mind that this is a limited edition of there complete listing that is available on CD-Rom... but still has a ton of listings. -j- ps: alll of thise nonsinse aboot mispeeling ands tipografical erroers is sownding veery winy. It cood bee alott woorss. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 06:00:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA01617; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:57:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01612; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:57:50 -0500 Received: from crl6.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA04939 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:55:03 -0800 Received: by crl6.crl.com id AA22680 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:48:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Phasing... In-Reply-To: <199602100507.AAA21115@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Wow. This came up again. I promise this -weekend- to write up what I know about Alfa Romeo's sequential [and mechanical, and timing-adjustable fuel injection]. Event timing -can- make a difference. But for now one comment: On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Timothy Coste wrote: > are all concerns of manufacturers, not tuners/racers. Show me a > racer who minds a miniscule off-idle stutter versus 20hp and a > 1000ppm increase in HC and I'll show you a big three engineer riding > with a racing team. :) Throttle control is a big issue with -fast- racers. I spent a little while with motorcycles. Power is very good. Falling is very bad. Smooth throttle response is superior to quite a bit of unruly power, at least when coming out of corners! The new telemetry I've seen published shows that throttle response is of key importance in automobile road racing, as well. I suspect that even [especially?] in drag racing throttle control is a key variable. No big deal, but the dichotomy in control system requirements may not be very substantial, may not be there at all. And lean is still mean. --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 06:58:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA01924; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 06:55:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA01919; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 01:55:28 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.1/10.0i); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 22:01:26 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 22:55:20 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Message-Id: <9602100655.utk4861@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Clint Corbin wrote: > >> I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 >> microprocessors. The first processor would run the ignition system. It > >I am working (slowly) on an idea like this, but not quite so ambitious, >I think 4 processors is a little overkill. My system will use 2 for now, >one for ignition and one for fuel. I know some guys who did a natural >gas injection system using 4 processors, but only 2 actually ran the >engine, the other 2 were strictly for data aquisition and communications >for developement purposes only. > >> There would be two seperate (and identical) fuel injection systems. Each >> would control 4 fuel injectors. For a 12 cylinder engine, one more fuel >> injection subsystem could be added without change to the master controller. > >Por Que? You could just add more injector drivers, unless you want full >sequential. Seems to me the software would be a nightmare for this kind of >system. That's the crux of the matter. I want a fully sequential system. The 68HC11 does not have enough output compare ports to control 8 fuel injectors in a sequential system. The software for the main modules would be pretty basic. They would not have any of the advanced stuff in them, just the basics needed to properly run there system. They would be told how to MODIFY either the injector pulse or the ignition timing by the master controller. The system should be able to run without a problem without the master controller being connected at all. In fact, that is how I intend to build it: the ignition system, the fuel injection system, and finally, the master controller to impliment the more advanced features (such as ignition retard based on knock sensors). Because all of the modules are stand-alone, I do not need to use the serial interface to connect all of the modules. >As far as the code goes, you could use the 'HC11E2 which has 2k of EEPROM >instead of EPROM. This should be plenty of code space, since you're >splitting up the operating system into several parts anyway. You can put a >header on the circuit board, tied to the RS232 port on the 'HC11, and >reprogram the EEPROM any time with a laptop. Don't even have to pull >the chip to erase or reprogram it. Now this idea I like. I just do not want to get into the postion were I have to program the sub-modules through the master controller. This leads to a level of complexity I do not want to deal with. Yes, I know what most of you are thinking. And hey, you may be right. I cannot PROVE that I am sane. Can you? Basically, I am willing to put up with a bit more hardware complexity to get rid of software complexity. I find it easier to write code that runs the ignition, code that runs the fuel injectors, and code that runs the master, than to try to write one program that does everything. Not to mention most microcontrollers do not have enough hardware resourses (input captures, output compares, regular I/O ports, etc.) to run the system the way I want it to run. By breaking it up into modules, I have the hardware I need. And it makes the system extremly modular. Need a system for a V-16 (hey, you never know)? just use two ignition modules and four injection modules. One constant in each program would have to be changed. The master controller would not change at all. And do you think we could drop this spelling crap?!? That includes all of the snide little remarks at the end posts. Face it: the post that got all of this started was pretty bad. There were reasons for this. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes (my own spelling proves this often enough). So do you think that we can grow-up and leave this behind us? Clint ccorbin@intel7.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 08:29:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA02061; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 08:23:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA02056; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 03:23:06 -0500 Received: from by ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id AAA10530; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:23:01 -0800 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:23:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199602100823.AAA10530@ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu there are tricks using latches to expand ports on single chip micros look in the intel developement hand book . distributed processing is good i hear that down the road a bit all new us cars are going to use networked computers to run all their systems and save wire . From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 10:18:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA02293; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:11:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02288; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:10:58 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.133]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:42:40 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:42:40 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >The only way to see the effects of the above is to be in constant TRANSIENTS >which is were our engines spend 80% of their time. > > >Regards > >R.S.Sian > Raghbir, This may be so but not all of us have the exotic equipment to measure changes to engine acceleration, etc. You must be chasing cycle to cycle. I tend to stick to Peter Wales comments (providing I don't make a spelling mistake) however I agree it is necessary to qualify any comments. I give an example. We had a single cylinder rotary valve research engine (250cc) using a "plate" style injector (from "Lucas, prince of darkness" if my memory serves me correctly) which did not atomise the fuel very well. Changing the position of injection in relation to the inlet valve window we could get 30% change in torque at a (constant) test speed of 3000 RPM. We replaced this injector with a "pintel" type which gave very good atomisation and we could not measure a change no matter where we positioned the injection period. Most of my experience is on racing engines. In part throttle "off cam" areas in the RPM range you can measure changes, you can even hear the difference however apart from helping the guy drive out of the pits there are no MAJOR gains to be made from sequential. Emission and OEM development often have quite different goals to racing so what is important to some may not matter to others. To anyone studying this area a useful exercise is to graph the TIME taken for the inlet period (eg. 240 degrees) and graph this against RPM. The inlet time in degrees is fixed however notice how the actual inlet TIME changes quite dramatically. Then graph a fixed injector duration say 5 milliseconds against the above graph and you will see there is a interesting comparison between the AIR FLOW period and the FUEL FLOW period. Since we are trying to get the two to mix....... regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 10:18:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA02287; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:10:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02281; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 05:10:54 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.133]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:42:20 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:42:20 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:42 PM 8/02/96 PST, you wrote: >I have been thinking about a fuel injection system composed of four 68HC11 >microprocessors. The first processor would run the ignition system. It >would have inputs from crank and cam sensors (no missing tooth in the crank >senor for syncronization) and from the map sensor. It would also receive >6 bits of data from the master controller and 4 bits of control information. > Clint, I did one with 2 HC11's about 6 years ago. Sequential V8 GroupA car. Use the SPI to communicate between processors (thats what Motorola put it there for !). The only thing I noticed when doing the software is that both processors often need the same information but one or the other may calculate this so you have to swap data a bit. It ended up a master and "friend" rather than master and slave! One day Motorola may get their act together and make a HC11 with more that 5 output compares, do they think every has four cylinders or something !! If anyone from Motorola is listening don't worry this is my pet HC11 cripe. Anyway Clint what's someone at intel.com doing asking about HC11's, a bit of market research perhaps? regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 15:50:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA02645; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:31:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.oeonline.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA02640; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:31:30 -0500 Received: from oeonline.oeonline.com by mail.oeonline.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0tlH9p-0003umC; Sat, 10 Feb 96 10:24 EST Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:27:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Wesley X-Sender: mwesley@oeonline.oeonline.com To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Phasing... In-Reply-To: <199602100507.AAA21115@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Timothy Coste wrote: > > > I'll stop discussing this unless there is a reply directly to my > comments since this is getting way off of the diy category. If > you care enough about COVimep, transients, and cold starts, you're > working for an auto manufacturer and not in your garage. Or your > WAY too optimistic about your 4 micro-processor's having nothing to > do during idle times. :) Sorry, I really enjoy my own humor late > at night too much. > Welp, count me as one of the 'garage' types who does care about transients, emmisions, part throttle driveability and WOT performance and does this type of work for himself and not an OEM. My company develops calibrations to pass EPA regulations for all 50 states in the US. I work mainly on Ford EEC-IV/V systems re-calibrating them for other manufactuers. I've been following the closed vs open valve injector timing and I too have spent many an hour doing steady state and transient testing. On a Ford, you can change injector timing based on speed/load which is VERY nice. I fire on a more closed valve at part throttle/light load for smooth peformance and reduced emmisions. I fire on a more open valve at high load/WOT for increased torque. During the WOT transient testing, and depending on the engine, I see a 0-10% torque increase by firing on a more open valve. Of course if you fire too late, your in for trouble later on. Since I deal with high performance, federal certified, street cars, injector timing is pretty important to me. Mike... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 16:29:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA02718; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:17:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02713; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 11:17:20 -0500 Received: from port53.fishnet.net (port53.fishnet.net [205.216.133.253]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA01399 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 08:17:16 GMT Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 08:17:16 GMT Message-Id: <199602100817.IAA01399@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Transients/WOT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I don't buy the idea that the only ones interested in transients and part throttle are government/EPA types. Transients are everything, you transition to WOT! I got into aftermarket EFI 5 years ago when I put an Electromotive system on my turbo rotary Spitfire, which I ran in slalom/autocross events. Good transient and part throttle operation are crucial in slalom racing, esp with a high power car. Tenths and hundreds of seconds count as these are timed events that last about 60sec a run. You can't afford to be sputtering and popping around a sweeper and as you squeeze the throttle comming off the turn onto a short straight. Here the car that is the easiest to drive has the best shot at winning. I saw numerous cars with poorly tuned or installed aftermarket EFI systems that gave the drivers fits, needless to say , they didn't do so well. Everything that pertains to slaloming pertains to real world driving as well. One difference being, you might want better efficiency if you are talking about your daily driver. I would bet that most on this list are more concerned about real world situation than WOT at 6000rpm. So lets continue the discussions and let the WOT types form DIY_WOT. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 18:50:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA02919; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:32:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from halcyon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA02914; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:32:16 -0500 Received: from samco.halcyon.com (blv-pm11-ip17.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA07680 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:32:04 -0800 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:32:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199602101832.AA07680@halcyon.com> X-Sender: samco@halcyon.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI-Digest From: Sam Stoney Subject: intro Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've been lurking here for a few days and what I've seen (except for the spelling incident) is enough to get me interested in the EFI project I just shelved again. I have a Ducati 750 V-twin motorcycle that I adapted a TEC 2 system to. From the get-go I've had several problems. The first is lack of any test facility. Being a race bike I can't test on the street and I prefer to spend my time at the race track racing. I'm addressing this problem this year by setting up a complete secondary fuel and ignition system. This way I can test during practice and go over to the proven system at race time. But I digress; this isn't of use to this group. The -technical- problems I have seem to be related to my using a MAP based system on an odd-fire v twin with radical cam timing. Needless to say I've got a -very- uneven manifold pressure. One solution I've been considering is going over to a MAF input. Specifically I was going to combine the two intakes into a chamber and then put the MAF sensor on the end of that. The throttles and injectors would remain right at the intake. Having this additional volume would dampen the airflow going through the MAF sensor. Of course, it would also slow down the response of the overall system to engine demand changes. But I figure I can compensate with throttle position based enrichment. I guess I'm trying to decide whether I should go to the trouble of doing this or simply continue to try to make this system work. Any suggestions, general or specific, would be welcome. It has already been suggested that I throw away the bike and get a car or at least a 4-cylinder engine to play with but I'm stubborn. On another topic - at one point in this project I took a Seimens injector (new) and mounted it on a throttle body mounted to a clear tube. I then attached the tube to a vacuum cleaner and attached a 40PSI clean water source to the injector. Using this apparatus I could then watch the way the injector atomized. I tried this with several different sized injectors, different pressures, and a couple of used Bosch injectors. In every case the injector emitted an incredibly squirt-gun like stream much to my suprise. I guess I expected it to look like those posters I see in garages showing cleam vs. dirty injectors. Perhaps the very different viscosity of water made a difference. I would have used gas but when the vapor got to vacuum cleaner.....:-0 The injector was pointed roughly 60 degrees down the intake. When the stream hit the other side it atomized rather well, so it didn't really matter that it was a stream. The atomization was consistant through all throttle positions. At one point I cycled the injector with the throttle WO and the vacuum off. The vacuum generated by the injector's pulse alone was very substantial. This -must- have a benificial effect on performance. Higher pressure definitly increased this vacuum too. I also tried the same experiment with like sized carbs attached where the throttle body was attached. An older Mikuni design seemed to atomize slightly better; a brand new Keihin flat slide (arguably the best carburetor currently available for racing) gave a substantally finer atomization right up to full throttle. But the carbs didn't flow very well when I shut the vacuum off.:-) Has anybody out there measured the pressure differential in a port before and after the injector to quantify the effect the injector output has on flow? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 19:07:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA02949; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:50:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elwood.probe.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA02944; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:50:42 -0500 Received: from dial32.probe.net (dial32.probe.net [206.28.166.32]) by elwood.probe.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA19488 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:50:39 -0600 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:50:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199602101850.MAA19488@elwood.probe.net> X-Sender: sparks@pop.probe.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: tom sparks Subject: Re: Electronics suppliers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:26 PM 2/9/96 +0000, you wrote: > >> >I could go on with more, but you're better off to do a little research >> >on your own. I'm up in Canada, so I don't have American addresses >> >and phone numbers for most of these places, but you can look them up >> >in the Thomas Registry at your local library. Another good source... >> >> Thomas Registry is online at: >> http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/finder/gate1.html >> >> VERY handy. >> >And *very* password protected. If it is anything like the printed >version you have to have some very deep pockets to afford this kind >of things. Practically speaking, you have to be buying *lots* of >stuff ALL the time for something like the Thomas Registry to be worth >it (IMHO) > >Mark Hillier >HVW Technologies > > OOOOPS! I lied! Not handy at all! Here's the registration page. I copied in my personal bookmark of the page you come to AFTER the registration page. Try this one: http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/adfinder.html#register Just sign up and you're in like Flint. Sorry and best regards, Thomas Sparks From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 19:32:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA03014; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:17:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA03009; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:17:13 -0500 From: marchil@ibm.net Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA35838 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:17:09 GMT Received: from slip129-37-164-76.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.164.76) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id smaY_4CkR; Sat Feb 10 19:16:56 1996 Received: by localhost (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.9)/1.0um) id AA0015; Sat, 10 Feb 96 14:15:45 -0800 Message-Id: <9602102215.AA0015@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 13:51:05 To: diy_efi Subject: Bosch CIS-E III X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Id: <10_53_1_823978266> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I saw a post from a person that had converted a flapper type Motronic systems to a MAF sensor input. I would like some information on modifying my injection control box. My car is an Audi 90 1989 5Cyl but not 20V front drive. The Robert Bentley shop manual says that the controller is a Bosch CIS-E III, but on the controller it is stamped Jetronic the numbers on it are 0 280 800 295 and also 443 906 264 0 The EPROM is from Intel the numbers on it are B57604 S7804 U842005MS is this a standard 27256 or what?? I am manly looking to reprogram the EPROM to get better power and if possible better fuel efficiency and then converting it to a MAF system. Any information on this and also on the ignition controller would be greatly appreciated. Thank You //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@IBM.NET 1983 RX-7 GX // Alain Marchildon 1989 Audi 90 // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 21:32:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA03253; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:13:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA03248; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:13:27 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id OAA16271 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:06:30 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sat, 10 Feb 96 14:21 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sat, 10 Feb 96 14:12:24 EDT Message-Id: <9601102112.AA18148@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 14:12:21 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9602100655.utk4861@INTEL7.intel.com>; from "Clinton L. Corbin" at Feb 9, 96 10:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Clint Corbin wrote: > That's the crux of the matter. I want a fully sequential system. The 68HC11 > does not have enough output compare ports to control 8 fuel injectors in a > sequential system. The software for the main modules would be pretty basic. Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time (except perhaps in exotic engines like the V12, I'm not familiar with these...) whether it's a V8 or an inline 4... you only have to keep track of one injector on and off time at any given portion of the cycle. Keep in mind that in an ECU, all things are RELATIVE with respect to timing, not ABSOLUTE. You have a reference timing pulse from the distributor or crank trigger which alerts you ahead of time which cylinder needs to fire, and you setup the output compare register to open the injector at some point in the future. When it opens, you reload the same OC with the ON time and shut off the injector when you hit that time. Next reference pulse, same sequence, different injector. You would need some sort of data selector or multiplexer between the OC output pin and the injector drivers, which is also controlled by the program, to route the OC signal to the proper injector. Thinking about this, just use a serial shift register with it's outputs tied as enable lines to the respective injector drivers, and buss the OC output to all injectors. Use a port pin to clock in a bit for cyl 1, and ripple it down the line as each cylinder fires. Thus, only the selected injector would open or close depending on whether OC is high or low. A single pulse from the CPU at the end of a cylinder cycle would increment the SR to enable the next injector inline, and start over. Thus, if you have more cylinders, just add more shift registers. If you want to fire more than 1 injector at a time, just clock in 2 bits in the right sequence instead of 1. If you ripple the overflow from the shift register back into another port pin on the CPU, so you could tell when it had gone full cycle, you shouldn't even need to change the software to add more injector drivers, it would all happen automagically... > Not to mention most microcontrollers do not have enough hardware resourses > (input captures, output compares, regular I/O ports, etc.) to run the system > the way I want it to run. By breaking it up into modules, I have the It's not so much how many resources the chip has, but how efficiently you make use of what you do have. Just 'cause it's a microcontroller, don't be afraid to add a few chips to the system to do the job more efficiently with less software. This is the approach I use, 'cause I hate writing code... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 21:50:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA03316; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:32:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA03301; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:31:58 -0500 Received: from port33.fishnet.net (port33.fishnet.net [205.216.133.233]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA18494 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:31:49 GMT Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:31:49 GMT Message-Id: <199602101331.NAA18494@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Ducati w/TEC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >The -technical- problems I have seem to be related to my using a MAP based >system on an odd-fire v twin with radical cam timing. Needless to say I've >got a -very- uneven manifold pressure. One solution I've been considering is >going over to a MAF input. Specifically I was going to combine the two >intakes into a chamber and then put the MAF sensor on the end of that. The >throttles and injectors would remain right at the intake. A much easier solution would be to switch over to Electromotives Superblend software. It allows you to blend TPS and MAP inputs in any ratio at various rpm through software. Probably beter suited suited to your bike than trying to cram a MAF sensor in somewhere. >On another topic - at one point in this project I took a Seimens injector >(new) and mounted it on a throttle body mounted to a clear tube. I then >attached the tube to a vacuum cleaner and attached a 40PSI clean water >source to the injector. Using this apparatus I could then watch the way the >injector atomized. I tried this with several different sized injectors, >different pressures, and a couple of used Bosch injectors. In every case the >injector emitted an incredibly squirt-gun like stream much to my suprise. must be the water, every (good) injector I've ever tested had a nice even cone shaped pattern. It might be interesting to try again with fuel but this time blow through the throttle body. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 23:24:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA03451; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:06:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA03446; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:06:18 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.102]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Sun, 11 Feb 96 10:06:15 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 10:06:15 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:12 PM 10/02/96 MDT, you wrote: > >> >Clint Corbin wrote: > >> That's the crux of the matter. I want a fully sequential system. The 68HC11 >> does not have enough output compare ports to control 8 fuel injectors in a >> sequential system. The software for the main modules would be pretty basic. > >Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output >compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time (except perhaps in >exotic engines like the V12, I'm not familiar with these...) whether it's a >V8 or an inline 4... you only have to keep track of one injector on and off >time at any given portion of the cycle. Keep in mind that in an ECU, all >things are RELATIVE with respect to timing, not ABSOLUTE. > >regards >dn > >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 > Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 > @ + > < > __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Darrell, I should point put that in a sequential system the injector pulses can overlap as you go up the RPM range. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 10 23:47:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA03629; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:32:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA03624; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:32:38 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm1-01.magicnet.net [206.104.207.2]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA21448 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:32:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199602102332.SAA21448@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:29:35 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output >compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time Wrong. At WOT (I'm fed up with yanks pussy footing it around. Get your foot down :), All of the injectors can be open at the same time. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 00:47:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA03793; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:26:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA03788; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:26:47 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc28.xmission.com [204.228.136.28]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA07431 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:26:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199602110026.RAA07431@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:27:00 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Bosch CIS-E III Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 13:51 2/10/96, you wrote: >The EPROM is from Intel the numbers on it are B57604 > S7804 > U842005MS >is this a standard 27256 or what?? I would just read it as a 27256 and see how many times the code "repeats" in the adress space of the eprom This way you can tell if it's a 27256, 27128, or 2764 What does the processor say, what freq. is the xtal?!? Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 02:43:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA04009; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 02:30:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA04004; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:30:37 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA25635 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 96 19:30:35 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA06669; Sat, 10 Feb 96 19:30:35 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA06775; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:30:34 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08626; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:24:06 CST Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:24:06 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602110224.AA08626@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch CIS-E III Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >The EPROM is from Intel the numbers on it are B57604 > S7804 > U842005MS >is this a standard 27256 or what?? If you peel back the label, you can use a 10X microscope and READ the device number right through the quartz window. ;-) Of a few laying around here: B57604 = 27256 12.5 Vp If you have plain EPROMS look at the die, through the window, and soon you'll be able to recognize the 2764, 27128, and 27256's by glance. B57607 is the 27128, btw. From the internal Bosch number sceme it is clear numbers are asigned arbitrarily to the Bosch Bxxxxx marking code. Cheers, Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 02:48:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA04039; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 02:37:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA04034; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:37:24 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA25788 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 96 19:37:22 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA06782; Sat, 10 Feb 96 19:37:22 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA07061; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:37:21 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08629; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:30:53 CST Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:30:53 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602110230.AA08629@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ducati w/TEC Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu When bench testing the injectors, try using mineal spirits through the injectors. Specific gravity is pretty close to gasoline, and a lot less volatile. Tom Walter Austin, TX. Question for our Canadian friends: Is Varsol just mineral spirits or? (any other fans of Guy Lautard's? -> if so just email direct walter@roadster.sps.mot.com) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 03:16:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA04187; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 03:02:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA04182; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:02:25 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA26355 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:02:19 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA07252; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:02:18 MST Received: from roadster.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA08666; Sat, 10 Feb 96 21:02:18 -0600 Received: by roadster.customer.specific (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08642; Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:55:50 CST Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:55:50 CST From: walter@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955) Message-Id: <9602110255.AA08642@roadster.customer.specific> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Transients/WOT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On the subject of WOT: During the time trials of Pike's Peak Hill climb, the Audi engineers had fitted Michele Mouton's Quattro with the full array of sensors. After looking over her times, one engineer pointed out the "problem" of her slow times... she was not keeping the engine at WOT long enough. Being a rather practical driver, she suggested the engineer strap himself into the navigators seat for the next run. Poor fellow returned white as a ghost, and when asked about the "lack of time at WOT" he replied "Kein Problem, Kein Problem" (no problem at all). With so much carbon fiber built into the "special Quattro" they had overlooked the GROUNDING of the ECU. Once fixed, well... Our French Lady driver set a record time that held for a few more years. Cheers, Tom Walter Austin, TX. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 03:20:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA04217; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 03:09:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA04212; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:09:40 -0500 Received: from acmey.gatech.edu (bs73@acmey.gatech.edu [130.207.165.23]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA09343 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:09:38 -0500 From: bs73@prism.gatech.edu (Brad Sheridan) Received: (bs73@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA26282 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:09:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199602110309.WAA26282@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:09:33 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199602102332.SAA21448@magicnet.magicnet.net> from "Peter Wales" at Feb 10, 96 07:29:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1220 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > >Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output > >compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time > > Wrong. At WOT (I'm fed up with yanks pussy footing it around. Get your foot > down :), All of the injectors can be open at the same time. Would it be possible to make some sort of FIFO structure that kept track of the time to go into the output compare, and a mask to tell you which injector to be turned off? Given that you know how many cylinders you have(I hope :), the FIFO can be of a fixed size:2 bytes for OC value, 1 for mask per cylinder, with an extra pair of bytes to tell you where the beginning and end of the valid info is. Every time the OC was triggered, it could load the next value from the queue into the OC. You'd need an available output port to do this, but I think it could be done. One potential problem would be if two injectors were to be closed in a time frame shorter than the length of time for the interupt to be serviced. This shouldnt be too much a problem if the OC is kept as a high priority, and the interrupts aren't too long. How does the aftermarket deal with this? Or do they use chips with more output compares? Brad Sheridan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 04:30:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA04375; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 04:18:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA04370; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:18:00 -0500 From: Mitsu16v@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA01524 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:17:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:17:52 -0500 Message-ID: <960210231752_318590786@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch CIS-E III Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu WOAH! Afraid you are all talking WAY over my head on this one.... I am just looking for some info on modifying my Eclipse <16V 2.0L, nonturbo> ... Anyone with info, please email me at mitsu16v@aol.com, please :> Thanks!! Now... how do I get out of here?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 05:41:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA04508; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 05:27:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04503; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:27:13 -0500 From: Mitsu16v@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17023 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:27:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: <960211002710_318637771@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: I seem to be out of my league here.... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu WOAH! Afraid you are all talking WAY over my head on this one.... I am just looking for some info on modifying my Eclipse <16V 2.0L, nonturbo> ... Anyone with info, please email me at mitsu16v@aol.com, please :> Thanks!! Now... how about some suggestions for some EFI primer info?!?! From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 12:16:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA05060; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:59:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA05055; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 06:59:09 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01I12RLTN3WW00009M@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 05:59:04 CDT Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:52:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... To: diy_efi Message-id: <233019.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> These produce relatively fine (about 30 micron I believe) sprays in -> excelently controlable patterns. I read (in SAE?) that Ford is Um, yeah. Have you had a chance to observe the injector spray patterns with a stroboscope? I got a surprise when a friend hooked a strobe to his injector tester and fired it up. The first thing of interest was, all the different injectors look pretty much the same, whether pintle valve, disc valve, etc. The second was, they all sort of dribble fuel as they open, then a small stream, which gradually opens to a narrow angle stalactite(mite?) looking shape, when then contracts back down to a point before turning into mist and droplets. The typical spray pattern was about six to eight inches long. At a quick guess, probably less than half of the volume of injected fuel is dispersed in a particle size like you're talking about. The rest looks pretty much like an old-time carburetor accelerator pump shot. And most of the fuel, whether stream or spray, impinges on the manifold or port well upstream of the valve. Fortunately none of this seems to matter except for cold idle and low-RPM emissions characteristics. ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 19:26:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA05570; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 19:12:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05565; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:12:02 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA16225 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:12:01 -0500 Received: from bounce.civil.mtu.edu (root@bounce.civil.mtu.edu [141.219.20.235]) by mtu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA19489 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:12:01 -0500 From: Timothy Coste Received: from gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (tlcoste@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu [141.219.26.70]) by bounce.civil.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-R1.8) with ESMTP id OAA04426 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:10:34 -0500 Received: (from tlcoste@localhost) by gradlab0.me.mtu.edu (8.6.12/MTU-C1.3) id OAA17826 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:11:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:11:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199602111911.OAA17826@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Content-Length: 1767 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In response to Dave Williams comments on injector spray... All of my work with injectors is based on other research here where they use stroboscopes for visual measurements of things like spray cone angle and such. The droplet sizing is measured with a Malvern Particle Droplet Sizer which uses diffraction of a lser (oops, laser) beam to measure droplet size. The number given is the Sauter Mean Diameter. I'd have to look the formula up for you if you wanted to know how it's computed. The machine also gives percent of droplets below certain diameters. i.e.- 10% below 10 microns, 30 below 20 microns, and so on. The starting dribble is called sac volume. And sac volume is why I really wish someone would explain GM's central port fuel injection to me, cause it seems it would have sac volumes (dribbles) equal to the full spray if I understand it correctly. And yes, our injectors really give sprays where MOST of the fuel is in small droplets. Even with these injectors, the sensors that I am developing and testing to measure wall wetting still "see" the walls being wetted, even under warm engine conditions. I'll let you know (maybe in an SAE paper?? :) ) the relationshop I find between wall wetting and engine performance sometime soon (I hope). Now, production injectors...man, those things stink! I hope my numbers bear this out. ;) Oh, one side note...our testing is done using Stoddard fluid in place of actual gasoline (the droplet sizing testing that is...I run the engine on gas!). THis is an out-dated dry cleaning fluid with properties very close to gasoline, but much less volatile. The silly university seems to have a problem with us spraying gas around willy nilly. Stodgy old farts. :) Tim Coste tlcoste@mtu.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 21:03:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA05721; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:43:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA05716; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:43:32 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id NAA19540 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:36:42 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sun, 11 Feb 96 13:51 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sun, 11 Feb 96 13:43:56 EDT Message-Id: <9601112043.AA18168@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 13:43:53 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199602102332.SAA21448@magicnet.magicnet.net>; from "Peter Wales" at Feb 10, 96 7:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Me: > >Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output > >compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time Peter: > Wrong. At WOT (I'm fed up with yanks pussy footing it around. Get your foot > down :), All of the injectors can be open at the same time. Whoa, now I'm really confused.... I know I'm not wrong about firing 1 cylinder at at time, last time I looked in my HEI there were 8 little posts and only 1 contact on the rotor... Your'e telling me that in a V8 port injection system, all 8 injectors can be open at the same time? How is this possible? Only 1 cylinder is at TDC on the power stroke at a time, therefore previous to that it's intake valve will be the only one open. Cylinders in the firing order are separated by 90 degrees of crank rotation. Taking into consideration that the injector can open before the valve, it is possible that 2 consecutive cylinders in the firing order could overlap somewhat on injector opening, but all 8? You'd just be dumping fuel into a port with no flow, which seems to me would be counterproductive to vaporization... Also, the injectors are supposed to be sized to deliver enough fuel at around 80% duty cycle for WOT, you can't just turn on an injector and leave it on or it dies a fiery death... With a TBI setup, I can see this happening, or on a system with less than an injector-per-cylinder, but not on a port injection setup... but then I've also been wrong before (once or twice). Enlighten me, oh guru. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 23:43:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA07197; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:17:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from unix1.bart.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07192; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:16:57 -0500 Received: from dyna-63.bART.nl (dyna-63.bART.nl [194.72.68.219]) by unix1.bart.nl (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27752 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:16:48 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199602112316.AAA27752@unix1.bart.nl> X-Sender: jsturs@bart.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:15:32 -0100 To: diy_efi From: jsturs@bart.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Your'e telling me that in a V8 port injection system, all 8 injectors >can be open at the same time? How is this possible? Only 1 cylinder >is at TDC on the power stroke at a time, therefore previous to that >it's intake valve will be the only one open. Cylinders in the firing >order are separated by 90 degrees of crank rotation. Taking into >consideration that the injector can open before the valve, it is possible >that 2 consecutive cylinders in the firing order could overlap somewhat >on injector opening, but all 8? You'd just be dumping fuel into a port >with no flow, which seems to me would be counterproductive to vaporization... > >Also, the injectors are supposed to be sized to deliver enough fuel at >around 80% duty cycle for WOT, you can't just turn on an injector and >leave it on or it dies a fiery death... > let me see... On a V8 pulling 6000 rpm, that's 100 revs/sec. That gives 10 millisecs per rev. If I want to inject all 8 cyls in 2 revolutions (this is a four stroke after all), then thats 4 cyls per rev. Now if I don't want to inject more than one cylinder simultaneously, that gives me 2.5 millisecs per injection event. I don't think any injector would be happy at that. If you sized the injectors to give enough fuel in 2.5 millisecs, then you would never get it to accept a short enough pulse to give a decent idle. Is my reasoning correct here? Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@bart.nl From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Feb 11 23:52:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA07474; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:35:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07469; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:35:20 -0500 Received: (from pjwales@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA18575; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:35:17 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:35:16 -0500 (EST) From: Peter J Wales To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system In-Reply-To: <9601112043.AA18168@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, dn wrote: > Me: > > > >Pardon my ignorance here, but what the heck do you need more than 1 output > > >compare for? You only have 1 cylinder firing at a time > > Peter: > > > Wrong. At WOT (I'm fed up with yanks pussy footing it around. Get your foot > > down :), All of the injectors can be open at the same time. > > Whoa, now I'm really confused.... > > I know I'm not wrong about firing 1 cylinder at at time, last time I > looked in my HEI there were 8 little posts and only 1 contact on the > rotor... Ignition! We are talking injection. > Your'e telling me that in a V8 port injection system, all 8 injectors > can be open at the same time? How is this possible? > Also, the injectors are supposed to be sized to deliver enough fuel at > around 80% duty cycle for WOT, you can't just turn on an injector and > leave it on or it dies a fiery death... If it is sized correctly for normal running at 80% at WOT, let's have a cold engine, cold day and flat battery. That should be good for the other 20% Now the injectors are open continuously, the fuel flowing throgh them will keep them cool. If they were to run red hot, that would help vapourisation wouldn't it? :) Peter Wales From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 01:46:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA07688; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:23:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA07681; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:23:09 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id MAA21530 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:23:05 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199602120123.MAA21530@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:23:04 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199602111911.OAA17826@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> from "Timothy Coste" at Feb 11, 96 02:11:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1627 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Tim Coste remarked, > The silly university seems to have a problem with us spraying > gas around willy nilly. Stodgy old farts. :) You should try hydrogen as a fuel. Can't see it, can't smell it and you can't even see it when it burns. It will ignite at any air-fuel ratio and goes off with a real bang. We've got shattered inlet manifolds and exhaust systems that have been partially turned inside out to prove it. In our case, it's the 'stodgy old farts' who are most keen for us to get a better 'feel' for the engine by working inside the dyno cell. Back to the topic. Tim, your research sounds very interesting. Please keep us posted on the results of your measurements. For reference try SAE Paper # 940445 (Chen, Vincent and Gutermuth, Chrysler Corp.) This paper quantitatively describes the effects of various factors on injected droplet size including gasoline composition, initial droplet size, initial fuel temperature, charge temperature, intake manifold pressure, engine speed and distance from injector. It is very interesting to note their relative importance. I have yet to find a good reference which details the effect of droplet size and initial fraction vapourised on combustion. If I had more time, I could fit a petrol injection system onto the optical CFR and do some measurements myself but I have more important details to worry about right now. Robert Dingli -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 04:30:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA08067; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 04:19:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pine.liii.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA08062; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:19:39 -0500 Received: from rowan.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA08601; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:21:16 -0500 Received: by rowan.liii.com (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA09140; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:20:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:20:45 -0500 (EST) From: Bob Valentine To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... In-Reply-To: <199602120123.MAA21530@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [Hydrogen] > can't even see it when it burns. It will ignite at any air-fuel ratio and > goes off with a real bang. We've got shattered inlet manifolds and exhaust > systems that have been partially turned inside out to prove it. Off on a side note, this reminds me of a time when I used to cut junk cars in a salvage yard. Spent about an hour trying to get a old Chevy to start - finally gave up. About 1/2 hour later we flipped it on it's side to cut the motor/trans out. As I hit the exhaust pipe with the torch, all I remember was hearing a loud BOOM, then a clank. Completely unwrapped the muffler, blew the y-pipe free from the manifolds, and blew the carb *with* the air cleaner attached about 25 feet... ;^> > Robert Dingli --> Bob From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 05:08:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA08220; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 04:55:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA08215; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:55:52 -0500 Received: (from steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29913 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:48:03 +1300 (NZDT) From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199602120448.RAA29913@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Injector Phasing... To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:48:02 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <199602100507.AAA21115@gradlab0.me.mtu.edu> from "Timothy Coste" at Feb 10, 96 00:07:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Boy, I really hate (I think) to get into this one but... > > I believe Peter and Sian are saying the same thing, but from totally > different perspectives. Peter is concerned with WOT...Sian is (I > think, since hie research sounds similar to mine) concerned with > day-to-day driveability. There's no way you can meet emissions > regulations and customer (i.e.- consumer) satisfaction without being > extremely concerned with transients, not to mention cold-start/ > warm-up strategy. Increasing cycle-to-cycle variability, increasing > efficiency at part-throttle, etc. (COVimep, transient response, etc) > are all concerns of manufacturers, not tuners/racers. Show me a > racer who minds a miniscule off-idle stutter versus 20hp and a > 1000ppm increase in HC and I'll show you a big three engineer riding > with a racing team. :) Isn't the whole point of EFI to have performance and retain some driveability ? Otherwise we might as well use something like Hilborn (open 'em up and pour it in) injection. The thought of trying to park a top-fueler doesn't appeal to me. If there isn't any harm (to overall power) by reducing emmisions or consumption, why not do it ? For a street driven car, I still haven't seen the down side. I can't find the spellink chekka for yewniks. Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 06:11:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA08348; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 05:58:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08343; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:58:43 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id WAA21707 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 22:41:37 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sun, 11 Feb 96 22:56 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sun, 11 Feb 96 22:48:56 EDT Message-Id: <9601120548.AA18178@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 22:48:54 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: ; from "Peter J Wales" at Feb 11, 96 6:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Ignition! We are talking injection. Ignition, injection, whazza diff? Both gotta happen once per cylinder per combustion cycle... > > If it is sized correctly for normal running at 80% at WOT, let's have a > cold engine, cold day and flat battery. That should be good for the > other 20% Isn't that what the cold start valve is for? All that aside, I now see the error of my ways, thanks to Jim. I was thinking in terms of events per revolution instead of the actual time for those events at high RPMs. I guess that's why they pay you guys the big bucks.... dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 06:59:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA08428; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:17:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from halcyon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA08421; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:17:07 -0500 Received: from samco.halcyon.com (blv-pm3-ip8.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA18420 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 11 Feb 1996 22:17:02 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 22:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199602120617.AA18420@halcyon.com> X-Sender: samco@halcyon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sam Stoney Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #39 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >It might be interesting to try again with fuel but this time blow through >the throttle >body. > Duh. I don't know why I didn't figure that out. Thanks, I'll try it again sometime.... I -did- get the superblend software. I will be playing with it this spring. Right now I have to sent the unit back - bad coil circuit somewhere. The thing doesn't look too easy to dig into myself. Has anybody played with Tec's superblend software? Sam From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 12:32:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA08989; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:24:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from usa.nai.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA08984; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:24:10 -0500 Received: from naihp12.nai.net (naihp12.nai.net [204.71.21.243]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA05084 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:16:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:16:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199602121216.HAA05084@usa.nai.net> X-Sender: btm@mailhost.nai.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: btm@usa.nai.net (Brad Martin) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Ignition! We are talking injection. > >Ignition, injection, whazza diff? Both gotta happen once per cylinder >per combustion cycle... Big diff..... My VW Rabbit GTI has a CIS system (continuous injection system) - injectors are on all the time (& fuel pressure to them varies), my spark plugs, however, are not 'on all the time'. anyhow, thats my 2 bits.. Peace- The Hacker '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '79 VW Scirocco ice racer ------- Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 12:56:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA09037; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:49:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA09032; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:49:25 -0500 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA01386; Mon, 12 Feb 96 07:49:18 EST Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 07:49:18 EST Message-Id: <9602121249.AA01386@oasys.dt.navy.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I got a surprise when a friend hooked a strobe to his injector tester > and fired it up. The first thing of interest was, all the different > injectors look pretty much the same, whether pintle valve, disc valve, > etc. The second was, they all sort of dribble fuel as they open, then a > small stream, which gradually opens to a narrow angle stalactite(mite?) > looking shape, when then contracts back down to a point before turning > into mist and droplets. The typical spray pattern was about six to > eight inches long. I have some photo's, taken by John De Armond, of two Rx7 injectors, 280 Z injector, and a GM injector. All are port injectors (not throttle body), and they have drastically different patterns. The GM injector (don't know what it is from) flows like water from a garden hose. The Z and Rx7 injectors have a wider spray pattern which is "misty". When I get a chance, I'll scan them into my web page. Later Rob gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 12:58:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA09047; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:55:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA09042; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:55:18 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 12 Feb 96 07:54:25 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20767; Mon, 12 Feb 96 07:58:04 EST Message-Id: <9602121258.AA20767@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:10:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Ducati w/TEC Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >On another topic - at one point in this project I took a Seimens injector > >(new) and mounted it on a throttle body mounted to a clear tube. I then > >attached the tube to a vacuum cleaner and attached a 40PSI clean water > >source to the injector. Using this apparatus I could then watch the way the > >injector atomized. I tried this with several different sized injectors, > >different pressures, and a couple of used Bosch injectors. In every case the > >injector emitted an incredibly squirt-gun like stream much to my suprise. It's the water. Water has a much greater surface tension and it takes a MUCH greater force before it shears (i.e. as in cavitation with a boat prop.) than gasoline. I'm not sure which (or both) effect you consider with spray patterns from a nozzle. --- David Parrish Say it, don't spray it... From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 14:15:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA09211; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:06:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09206; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:06:34 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm5-05.magicnet.net [206.104.207.134]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07836; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:06:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199602121406.JAA07836@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:03:29 -0500 To: diy_efi, diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Phasing... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This thread is really amazing. I started off saying there was no increase in power, from injector timing, only economy, and all my tests were done at WOT. Now Steve is complaining he can't park his top fuel dragster at WOT. >Isn't the whole point of EFI to have performance and retain some >driveability ? Otherwise we might as well use something like Hilborn >(open 'em up and pour it in) injection. The thought of trying to park a >top-fueler doesn't appeal to me. > >Steve. > > Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 15:28:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA09669; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:22:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA09664; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:22:19 -0500 Received: from port37.fishnet.net (port37.fishnet.net [205.216.133.237]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA28799 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:22:23 GMT Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:22:23 GMT Message-Id: <199602120722.HAA28799@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #39 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Has anybody played withTec's superblend software? I haven't (mostly becouse I haven't had a case extreem enough to warrant it) but I have seen it used with success(ie Porsche 911 w/TWM T-Bodys) In cases like yours, the easiest way to go seems to be to vent the MAP sensor to atmosphere and set the percentages to something like 90% TPS 10% MAP. This just turns it into a throttle position based system with a little baro correction. You'll be starting from scratch on your calibration. Also, becouse it is now TPS based it is even more important that you try to accurately fill each cell in the VE(volumetric effeciency) table. Hope this helps, if you have any more specific questions on programming you might want to email me directly. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 16:24:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA10099; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:19:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA10094; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:19:34 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <188631-1>; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:58:45 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29678; Mon, 12 Feb 96 10:49:50 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029676; Mon Feb 12 10:49:43 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28458; Mon, 12 Feb 96 10:48:04 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA03536; Mon, 12 Feb 96 10:58:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:58:01 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9602121558.AA03536@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Cutler Fuel Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Here is the address as promised: Cutler Fuel Injection 19595 NE 10th Ave. N. Miami Beach FL 33179 Tel (305)653-9098 FAX (305)653-9952 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 18:47:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA10439; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:22:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from corona.cdev.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA10434; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:22:40 -0500 X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; Relayed; 12 Feb 1996 12:26:57 -0600 X400-Received: by mta corona.cdev.com in /c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; Relayed; 12 Feb 1996 12:26:57 -0600 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=/prmd=ceridian/; 0289A311F8671001-MTAcorona] Content-Identifier: 0289A311F8671001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Priority: normal Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: RONALD.R.HOYT@cdev.com X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <"0289A311F8671001*/c=us/admd= /prmd=ceridian/o=cdev/ou=cc-lan/ou=cchsgate/s=HOYT/g=RONALD/i=R/"@MHS> Date: 12 Feb 1996 12:26:57 -0600 From: "Ronald R Hoyt" To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" (Return requested) Subject: MAF sensor types MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=MAF Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Regarding the following mesage posted by Bryan Zublin: -------------------------------------------------------- From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) [cut] Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com -------------------------------------------------------- I found this a usefull summary of MAF sensor types to be maintained and disseminated. Will you place it in the DIY-EFI web page at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/ ? It would be desirable to have it readily accessible months from now in its most current form. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 19:27:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA10951; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:19:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA10946; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:18:56 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:19:07 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:19:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:19:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199602121919.MAA16489@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF sensor types Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I found this a usefull summary of MAF sensor types to be maintained and > disseminated. Will you place it in the DIY-EFI web page at > http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/ ? > It would be desirable to have it readily accessible months from now in > its most current form. > All the info should be available in the mailing list archives. If anyone kept all the letters regarding MAF/MAP and want to make it available as part of the diy_efi www pages, I'll be happy to include it. Since there are many topics discussed here, and I can't keep up with all of them, what would be ideal is for certain people to maintain FAQs or archives of the topics and I'll just link to them or copy it. Any volunteers??? RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 20:08:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA11233; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:01:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11228; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:01:09 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id PAA29438; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:01:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602122001.PAA29438@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:54:29 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Now the injectors are open continuously, the fuel flowing throgh them >will keep them cool. ************************************************** Well by golly Peter...Don't YOU have a spell checker down there???? >************************************************* >If they were to run red hot, that would help vapourisation wouldn't it? :) > > >Peter Wales > > Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 20:30:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA11286; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:21:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11280; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:21:10 -0500 Received: from Default by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id PAA06214; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:21:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602122021.PAA06214@mh004.infi.net> X-Sender: orin@nr.infi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:14:33 -0500 To: diy_efi From: orin@nr.infi.net (Orin B. Harding) Subject: Vendor List - Add Emerald Cams X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Revised #10 systems info. After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) UD$459 (6 Cyl) US$499 (8 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) US$689 (6 Cyl) US$724 (8 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel&Ign Mgt.) US$1,500 (6 Cyl) US$1,550 (12 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) US$1,029 (6 Cyl) US$1,069 (8 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - US$550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@aems.com.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 11. Emerald Cams Phone 0171 737 7114 UK Prices include software & wiring loom a. M3D Ign. control UK#365 inc. VAT b. Fuel injection & ignition system UK#435 inc. VAT Manufacturer #1 #2 #3 Model TEC II E6 74040A PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline yes yes no Inj. drivers 2 8 4 Additional drivers yes($) Seq. Inj. yes($) no yes($) Fuel Map yes yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 16 Prog. points/RPM 8 8 Total prog. points 64 256 Warm-up Map yes yes yes Idle control yes(GM ICM) no yes(GM ICM) Data logging yes($) yes yes Speed density yes yes yes Mass Air Flow yes($) no no EGO - Closed loop yes yes yes Gen. purpose output yes yes Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no yes yes Ign. map points 64 yes Detonation sensor yes no yes Manufacturer #6 #7 #11 Model Projection SDS M3D PC I/O no no yes Prog. offline no Inj. drivers n/a Additional drivers n/a Seq. Inj. n/a Fuel Map n/a # fuel maps by RPM n/a Prog. points/RPM n/a Total prog. points n/a Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a Data logging Speed density n/a Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes Ign. amp. needed no Ign. map points 192 Detonation sensor Manufacturer #8 #8 #8 Model Ign. Mgt. Clubmans Eng. Mgt. Sys. PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline Inj. drivers n/a 1 4 Additional drivers n/a yes (+#) yes (+#) Seq. Inj. n/a no yes Fuel Map n/a yes yes # fuel maps by RPM n/a 16 16 Prog. points/RPM n/a 24 24 Total prog. points n/a 384 384 Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a yes (?) Data logging yes yes yes Speed density n/a yes yes Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a no yes Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no no no Ign. map points 384 384 384 Detonation sensor no no yes Manufacturer #10 #10 Model Wolf2D Wold3D PC I/O no no Both have an LCD/keypad I/O Prog. offline yes yes Inj. drivers 5 5 Current limited Additional drivers 3 3 Seq. Inj. no no 2 bank Fuel Map yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 8 Prog. points/RPM 16 16 Total prog. points 128 128 Warm-up Map yes yes Idle control no no Data logging no no Speed density yes yes Mass Air Flow yes yes EGO - Closed loop no no can display EGO bargraph Gen. purpose output no no Ignition control no yes Ign. amp. needed n/a yes Ign. map points n/a ? Detonation sensor no no Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Feb 12 22:41:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA12090; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:30:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA12085; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:30:43 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.218] (dialup-3-218.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.218]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA28602 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:30:21 GMT Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:30:21 GMT Message-Id: <199602122230.WAA28602@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: MAP Questions... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at full power!!!!! So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? What are the dimesions of you average MAP? What is the output type, and range? Analog Prefered of course. Lastly how exactly can it tell me how much air is flowing in the engine? Thanks.... Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 00:54:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA12447; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 00:50:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12442; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:50:12 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id LAA18680 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:50:02 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199602130050.LAA18680@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: MAP Questions... To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:50:01 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199602122230.WAA28602@freenet.msp.mn.us> from "Jim Staff" at Feb 12, 96 10:30:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1202 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jim Staff asks, > Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I > checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at > full power!!!!! > So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next > bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? > What are the dimesions of you average MAP? hieght, width, etc> > What is the output type, and range? > Analog Prefered of course. Jim, have you considered a simple speed throttle system using throttle position and rpm to index a map? Throttle density systems are common on individual throttle body intakes especially for ported rotaries and agressive cam piston engines. I have seen many successful (usually racing) applications where MAP of MAF sensors are useless. You could adjust for ambient air pressure if you prefer. regards, Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 00:54:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA12440; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 00:49:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12435; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:49:21 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.113]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:49:17 +1100 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:49:17 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: MAP Questions... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:30 PM 12/02/96 GMT, you wrote: > Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I >checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at >full power!!!!! > So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next >bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? > What are the dimesions of you average MAP? hieght, width, etc> > What is the output type, and range? >Analog Prefered of course. > Lastly how exactly can it tell me how much air is flowing in the engine? > > Thanks.... > Jim Staff > > Jim, Sorry to disappoint you but a MAP sensor will not tell how much air is flowing into the engine. That's what you have to do!! regards, Mark Boxsell. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 05:01:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA12968; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:52:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA12963; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:52:24 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.224] (dialup-3-224.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.224]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id EAA10866 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:51:54 GMT Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:51:54 GMT Message-Id: <199602130451.EAA10866@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAP Questions... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Jim, have you considered a simple speed throttle system using throttle > position > and rpm to index a map? > > Throttle density systems are common on individual throttle body intakes > especially for ported rotaries and agressive cam piston engines. > > I have seen many successful (usually racing) applications where MAP of MAF > sensors are useless. You could adjust for ambient air pressure if you > prefer. Robert, The problem I have requires that it operate over very wide range of temperatures and altitudes. A TPS system would be very simple and I could do it with the scrap parts on my desk but it wouldn't be the best I could make it. Also I would have to have a butload of calibration curves for it based on the temp and altitude. I can check the temp no problem, I've got a small integrated 0¡C to 100¡C National Semiconductor temp sensor. But I need some type of correction for the pressure. This is what I know. The MAP sensor will give me a reading on the manifold vacume. I can correct this with a temp sensor to give the amount of air that the engine desires. I was wondering how I would go about using this sensor to determine how much air I need. Is a MAP system just mapped out? Like an array. Where temp is one demension, Vac is the second dimesnion and the array value is the fuel. Take this data for several points on the RPM curve then when the engine is running have it integrate the curve data and find the appropriate value for fuel? With an O2 sensor taking up the rear with corrections with are stored in some sort of temp table? Just a thought----- After all I'm using a PC (286 w/ 287) So I have all the horse power I need. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 07:47:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA13243; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:45:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA13238; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 02:45:53 -0500 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma026605; Tue Feb 13 09:27:39 1996 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma013820; Tue Feb 13 15:54:48 1996 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA08241 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:54:48 +1100 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.12) id PAA06735 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:54:46 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199602130454.PAA06735@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Aus curcuit cellar availability.. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:54:45 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512190709.SAA01833@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> from "Craig Pugsley" at Dec 19, 95 06:09:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 370 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi a few weeks ago I posted: > > in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > > > I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally > > found a source? > Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what > I've seen. The newsagent at Brentford Square, Forest Hill/Vermont in Melbourne sells curcuit cellar (@~$9.20 ea) Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 07:47:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA13232; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:41:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cello.QNET.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA13227; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 02:41:47 -0500 Received: from dialup29.palm.ca.qnet.com by cello.QNET.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tmFMB-0001zIC; Mon, 12 Feb 96 23:40 PST Message-Id: X-Sender: masmith089@pop3.av.qnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:37:53 -0800 To: diy_efi From: masmith Subject: Re:EGA and pronnunciation - nothing useful....:-) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:21 PM 2/9/96 +1100, you wrote: >Something slightly off the topic to waste some bandwidth.... > >I am in the market ( depending on price :-)) for Exhaust gas analyser >that is capable of giving readings for CO, O2, HC and NOx. > >I am after people's opinions in regard to brands, quality and >pricing. Names of distributors or manufacturers would also be >appreciated. > > >Thanks, > >Angus > >angus@rdt.monash.edu.au > >P.S. As I'm from Australia, English is my second language. >Please excuse any grammatical errors. :-). > dont worry angus - you aussies may have crucified the pronounciation, ( and personally i like your pronounciation) but at least you get the bloody words right! you should hear some of these yanks try to speak english and how they complain about the non-native talkers who cannot.... ! :-) expatriate pommy bastard *that's englishman to you yanks. sorry about wasted bandwidth but couldn't resist Matt Smith masmith089@qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 12:07:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA13567; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:58:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA13562; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:58:06 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01I15K67BVCG00009M@UALR.EDU>; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:58:02 CDT Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:11:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... To: diy_efi Message-id: <233883.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -> I have some photo's, taken by John De Armond, of two Rx7 injectors, -> 280 Z injector, and a GM injector. All are port injectors (not -> throttle body), and they have drastically different patterns. Actually, it was John who was showing me the patterns. The "pattern" in the photos is only present for a small percentage of the injector's cycle time. The rest of the time it's dribbling on or dribbling off. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 13:16:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA13724; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:03:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perth by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13719; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:03:35 -0500 Received: from highway1.com.au (hedgehog.highway1.com.au [203.7.224.11]) by perth (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20240 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:01:50 +0800 Received: from onramp.com.au (mail.onramp.com.au) by highway1.com.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29410; Tue, 13 Feb 96 21:06:08 WST Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 21:00:53 +0800 From: Cliff@onramp.com.au (Cliff Tindall) Organization: Onramp Computer Services Subject: Extra Fueler To: diy_efi Message-Id: <368552.ensmtp@onramp.com.au> Priority: normal X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi. I have a small timer circuit that I have built that I have used to control an extra injector, under full load situations, in a modified engine (for off road racing)using the existing injector pulse to trigger the unit, and switches for full load etc. This works well in its current application. However I have someone who would like a unit to fit to their Turbo LPG (propane)to come on only at boost. This is no problem to do with a pressure switch, but the problem now is what to trigger the unit from. What I want to do is use the coil - signal. To pulse at the same rate as before I now need a divide by 3 circuit. So the unit will pulse once per engine revolution. My first thoughts were to use CMOS flip flops, but as I have seen from some of the posts on DIY_EFI I may be doing work that has previously been done. Any suggestions are welcome. Cliff Tindall Perth, Western Australia -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Onramp BBS - Perth, Australia http://www.onramp.com.au/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Feb 13 13:50:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA13799; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:39:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13794; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:39:01 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA04003 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:38:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199602131338.AA04003@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:38:40 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:38:40 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAP Questions... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Feb 96 04:51:54 GMT." <199602130451.EAA10866@freenet.msp.mn.us> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 08:38:39 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > This is what I know. The MAP sensor will give me a reading on the manifold > vacume. I can correct this with a temp sensor to give the amount of air that > the > engine desires. I was wondering how I would go about using this sensor to > determine how much air I need. That's got me a bit confused. Could you restate that part? > Is a MAP system just mapped out? Like an array. Where temp is one > demension, Vac is the second dimesnion and the array value is the fuel. Take > this data for several points on the RPM curve then when the engine is running > have it integrate the curve data and find the appropriate value for fuel? Isn't the goal of most MAP-based systems the same as that of MAF-based systems, namely to estimate the mass of air inducted into the cylinder? For a MAP-based system, this would be an application of the ideal gas law with the addition of a volumetric efficiency term. pV = mRTe where p = manifold absolute pressure V = cylinder displacement m = air mass inducted R = gas constant T = absolute temperature e = volumetric efficiency . . . This could also be expressed in rate terms ... pV = mRTe where V is determined by engine speed. This is a very simple approach. I think the difficulties arise in determining volumetric efficiency, which varies with temperature, barometric pressure (mainly an exhaust-side effect), etc. The maps you speak of would be of volumetric efficiency and various correction factors. As to size of the sensors, I've seen them at about 80 mm x 50 mm x 15 mm. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 00:10:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA17195; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:55:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17190; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:55:22 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id KAA15728 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:54:25 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199602132354.KAA15728@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: MAP Questions... To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:54:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199602130451.EAA10866@freenet.msp.mn.us> from "Jim Staff" at Feb 13, 96 04:51:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2981 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Jim, have you considered a simple speed throttle system using throttle > > position > > and rpm to index a map? > > Robert, > The problem I have requires that it operate over very wide range of > temperatures and altitudes. A TPS system would be very simple and I could do it > with the scrap parts on my desk but it wouldn't be the best I could make it. > Also I would have to have a butload of calibration curves for it based on the > temp and altitude. I can check the temp no problem, I've got a small integrated > 0¡C to 100¡C National Semiconductor temp sensor. But I need some type of > correction for the pressure. Jim, you can simply map the injection duration per cycle as a function of rpm and throttle position and then correct for ambient air temperature and pressure. The air pressure would be measured in free air or, if you used some sort of ram air intake, inside the air box before the throttle. > This is what I know. The MAP sensor will give me a reading on the manifold > vacume. I can correct this with a temp sensor to give the amount of air that the > engine desires. I was wondering how I would go about using this sensor to > determine how much air I need. > Is a MAP system just mapped out? Like an array. Where temp is one > demension, Vac is the second dimesnion and the array value is the fuel. Take > this data for several points on the RPM curve then when the engine is running > have it integrate the curve data and find the appropriate value for fuel? With > an O2 sensor taking up the rear with corrections with are stored in some sort of > temp table? Just a thought----- After all I'm using a PC (286 w/ 287) So I > have all the horse power I need. As above, you can simply map the injection duration as a function of rpm and MAP value, and then correct for air temperature using the ideal gas law or whatever is most appropriate for your intake system. Thus, rpm is one dimension, MAP the other, and the array value the fuel injected per revolution (or cycle). Initially, you could meter the fuel as a linear function of MAP only. From my experiences with single cylinder engines, there generally isn't a suitable MAP value to work from. You could try mechanically filtering the MAP value with a restriction in the pressure line. I doubt your B&G will run well anywhere near stoiciometric, so unless you have a wide range UEGO (Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor, you will have to run open loop. A 286 may be good as communicating with a screen or other computer peripherals but communicating with the real world is another matter. While the processor will have sufficient grunt, you will probably be restricted by the input and output systems. regards, Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 01:21:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA17420; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:08:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA17415; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:08:42 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA22091 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:08:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:08:28 -0500 Message-ID: <960213200827_321289665@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAP Questions... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu PV=nRT is for a static situation, which is rather boring for an engine! Try Bernoilli (sp?) equation. See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 01:40:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA17540; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:30:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from simon.cs.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA17528; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:30:51 -0500 Received: from cloyd.cs.cornell.edu (CLOYD.CS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.227.15]) by simon.cs.cornell.edu (8.6.10/R1.4) with ESMTP id UAA05155 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:30:48 -0500 Received: from CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU (CS-ANNEX-1-08.CS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.254.40]) by cloyd.cs.cornell.edu (8.6.10/M1.8) with SMTP id UAA24422 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:30:46 -0500 Received: by CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU with Microsoft Mail id <01BAFA52.6D371A60@CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU>; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:32:43 -0500 Message-ID: <01BAFA52.6D371A60@CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU> From: Jody Shapiro To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: EFI 332 Home page?? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:32:35 -0500 Encoding: 9 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Is the EFI 332 home page still up at its (as far as I know) current location of: http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html Can't seem to get there, although the server seems to be up (www.cim.swin.edu) Thanks, -Jody --- http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/jshapiro/jshapiro.htm From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 01:40:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA17550; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:33:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA17545; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:33:23 -0500 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by VCA.GI.COM (PMDF V5.0-5 #7516) id <01I168FSA0BKA25NME@VCA.GI.COM>; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <31213B7E@gismtpgate.gi.com>; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:31:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:31:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system - Who uses intel ups To: "diy_efi (postings)" Cc: "'Mayhead, Martin'" Message-id: <31213B7E@gismtpgate.gi.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 16 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Martin Mayhead (mpm@impltd.com) writes: >If your question was aimed at discovering the pitfalls and/or >advantages of Intel uC's (in particular the 80196) I would be >happy to discuss this further - it is actually very straightforward >to use and well documented by Intel (yes that surprised me too). I'd like to hear more about the advantages/disadvantages of the 80196 when used for an efi/spark timing controller. We use quite a few of them in our satellite receivers, so they are readily available for me. The Motorola uC's seem to get the most attention on this list, it would be good to hear about the "competition." Bryan Zublin bzublin@gi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 04:30:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA17882; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:22:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from net.dris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA17877; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:21:38 -0500 Received: from peo38.dris.com (peo38.dris.com [199.120.109.238]) by net.dris.com (8.7.1/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA04837 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:31:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:31:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602140431.WAA04837@net.dris.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.dris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@dris.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: MAP Questions... Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I >checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at >full power!!!!! > So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next >bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? > What are the dimesions of you average MAP? hieght, width, etc> > What is the output type, and range? >Analog Prefered of course. > Lastly how exactly can it tell me how much air is flowing in the engine? > > Thanks.... > Jim Staff > > Jim, A map sensor from a gm car will work just fine. It has a 0v (0kpa absolute) to 5V (100 kpa absolute) analog signal. One thing to remember about the briggs, is that the small displacemant 1 cylinder will not develop a stable vacuume signal. You may need to make an intake with some type of volume, say equal to the engine displacemant to act as a buffer. Or else use a very fast a-d converter and average or filter the signal in software. As has already been mentioned, the amount of air in the engine can be defined by the ideal gas law. Think about it this way, If there is little air pressure, then there is little air. A lot of air pressure means that there is a lot of air. Since the ratio of fuel to air is to be pretty much constant, the amount of fuel is related to the air pressure in the intake. This is pretty general, but is a start. The dimensions of the gm map sensor are roughly 1" by 1.5 " by 4" and uses a 3 pin packard connector operating on 5 volts. David J. Doddek |pantera@dris.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 06:46:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA18092; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:35:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18087; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:35:04 -0500 Received: (from steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00954 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:37:13 +1300 (NZDT) From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199602140637.TAA00954@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:37:13 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <199602122001.PAA29438@mh004.infi.net> from "Orin B. Harding" at Feb 12, 96 02:54:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > ************************************************** > Well by golly Peter...Don't YOU have a spell checker down there???? > >************************************************* You'll have to excuse him. I ran over his foot while trying to park the dragster. :-) Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 07:54:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA18230; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:45:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA18225; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 02:45:40 -0500 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA23257; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:45:38 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:45:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199602140745.XAA23257@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: MAP Questions... To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu how about a servo controlled throttle plate if done propperly it might alliviate alot of efi problems caused by manualy controled throttles : just think no more lead foots causing the manafold pressure to go down to next to nothing. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 15:33:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA19103; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:22:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id KAA19098; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:22:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:22:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199602141522.KAA19098@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Tommy.Palm@oron.ds.sll.se Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I carried out some (well alot of) research on this subject from a combu= stion >point of view. I saw a reduction in harshness (uneven combustion) and >INCREASE in Power (Torque) when you FINISHED or JUST FINISH injecting t= he >fuel just before the inlet valve started to open. = > >R.S.Sian > = Since this seems to be a ongoing topic I might help someone with some information from SAE transactions were Toyota carried out a very serious= tests on sequential timing and affects on combustion. It was done for their le= anburn engine to use mixtures leaner than 22:1 and still comply to harshness an= d mostly polluton NOx. Lots of interesting grafs that mostly agrees with M= r Sians research. I also have an astonishing report on the effect of injector ai= ming. Interested? = Excuse my swedish-english (one bearly dear to write in this group anymor= e)! Tommy Palm tommy.palm@oron.ds.sll.se From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 16:04:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA19539; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:58:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from novell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA19533; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:58:34 -0500 Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by fromGW with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:56:03 -0800 Content-Length: 804 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:57:36 -0800 From: BANESI@novell.com (Brad Anesi) To: DIY_EFI, porschephiles@tta.com Subject: <911> Bosch Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu If you don't know/care about a Motronic-equipped '86 911, feel free to hit the delete key now.... There was a recent posting on the Alfa Digest about helping water-cooled, Motronic-equipped Alfas start and run easier when cold by measuring the resistance of the coolant temperature sensor and adding some calculated resistance to this circuit. My Alfa runs great when cold, but my 911 tends to stumble a bit when cold. I'd like to try to apply the same process to my 911, but obviously we have a different animal here. My questions: 1) Does the engine temperature input (at startup) for the 911's Motronic use the oil temperature, head temperature, both? 2) Any idea if the process described above (I can provide further details), would work for a 911? Thanks, Brad '86 911 Coupe '91 Alfa 164 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 20:11:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA20539; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:57:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA20534; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:57:16 -0500 Received: by bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21506; Wed, 14 Feb 96 11:57:11 PST Received: from bchgate.bchydro.bc.ca by bchnetgw via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma021503; Wed Feb 14 11:57:08 1996 Received: by BCHydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25378; Wed, 14 Feb 96 11:57:05 PST Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 11:57:05 PST Message-Id: <9602141957.AA25378@BCHydro.bc.ca> Received: from unknown by bchgate via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma025346; Wed Feb 14 11:56:44 1996 X-Sender: beggs@bchgate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: John.Beggs@BCHydro.bc.ca (John W. Beggs) Subject: Re: Sequential Setup? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Yes I am interested in reading the report. Please post. PS, Your English is AOK. >From someone who speaks the Queen's English. >Lots of interesting grafs that mostly agrees with Mr Sians >research. I also have an astonishing report on the effect of injector ai= >ming. >Interested? = > -------------------------------------- | John W. Beggs, | | BC Hydro, | | 6911 Southpoint Drive, | | Burnaby, B.C., V3N 4X8, Canada. | | (604)528-2776; FAX (604) 528-1883| -------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Feb 14 23:02:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA21238; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:50:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA21233; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:50:30 -0500 Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA13731; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:50:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:50:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199602142250.OAA13731@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.ne