From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 07:21:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA24896; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:02:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from noknic.nokia.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA24885; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:00:06 -0500 From: Mika.J.Tuominen@nmp.nokia.com Received: from samail01.nmp.nokia.com (samail01.nmp.nokia.com [131.228.240.6]) by noknic.nokia.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA02441 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:58:36 +0200 Received: from by samail01.nmp.nokia.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA029113278; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:54:39 +0200 X-Openmail-Hops: 2 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:08:21 +0200 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1D86B0C5729@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Subject: Re:Ducted Fan Engine Mime-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; name="Re:Ducted" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >If you reduce compression and fit a spark-ignition-system, you can = >use normal-gas without nitro and therefore won't have any corrosion = >inside the housing. Why not use use straight fuel with no nitro - no corrosion. (and yes, less power 10-15%) >A model-engine normally is very reliable for years (exept = >race-engines which sometimes make more than 32000 RPM!) Due to some experience, I agree... >But I would also prefer electrical motors.. I would say that, those are much easier to start! There is available very powerful electric motors to be used in electric r/c aeroplanes, those might be usable also. I think they = are available about same power levels as glow-plug model engines. Mika =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mika J. Tuominen Internet: mitu@nmoy.nmp.nokia.com Nokia Mobile Phones Ltd. Address: P.O.box 86, FIN-24101 Salo, Finland = From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 11:27:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA25284; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:59:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA25279; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:59:10 -0500 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:59:06 +0100 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:59:07 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:58:42 +0100 Received: from GNF43M by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:58:40 +0100 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:58:39 MET Subject: Re:ducted-fan-engine Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <1EE73655549@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I wrote: >If you reduce compression and fit a spark-ignition-system, you can >use normal-gas without nitro and therefore won't have any corrosion >inside the housing. Sorry, I didn't read carefully! You were talking about jet-engines, not model-piston-engines. Of course, it wouldn't make too much sense with a piston-engine. This mailing-list also is a good english-training for me... Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 11:27:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA25316; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:10:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA25306; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:10:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:10:08 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199603011110.GAA25306@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archives to all the mailing lists are available through Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for all of the mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe to the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 13:20:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA25523; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:49:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bserv.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA25518; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:49:04 -0500 Received: from pm2p2.bserv.com (pm2p2.bserv.com [204.101.197.72]) by bserv.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA14958 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:48:34 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:48:34 GMT Message-Id: <199603010748.HAA14958@bserv.com> X-Sender: renns@bserv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: renns@bserv.com (Roger Enns) Subject: Re: Totally tubular, man Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Where can I find mandrel bent "U" shaped aluminum and steel tubing for >fabricating intake and exhaust plumbing? > > Dan Bocek Check out the exhaust section of your JC Whitney catalog. They have a good selection of 45s, 90s, and 180s of various diameters. I have ordered a variety of sizes, and have been pleased with the product. Seems to me that all sizes were .050" wall thickness. Roger Enns (renns@bserv.com) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 14:20:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA25753; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:06:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA25747; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:06:34 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA20507 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14039 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA28988; Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:11:56 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA01949; Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:11:22 EST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:11:22 EST Message-Id: <9603011411.AA01949@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: RE:RE: Ducted Fan Engine Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I was referring to a Ducted Fan engine, which in my experience is a piston engine driving a fan, used in models of jet aircraft. I've been away from modeling for a couple of years, and other than one notable example, I was unaware that anyone had successfully built a model-size gas turbine. In general, model engines *are* long-lasting and basically reliable (I have some '70s vintage engines I wouldn't hesitate to fly again), but as a powerplant to drive a supercharger, there are better alternatives. How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? - Just another wacked-out thought... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 15:13:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA26419; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:03:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26410; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:02:22 -0500 Received: from ares [134.169.34.25] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id PAA06326 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:59:41 +0100 Received: from knick@localhost by ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id PAA13791 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:59:39 +0100 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199603011459.PAA13791@ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Just a few GM TPI Questions To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 15:59:39 MET In-Reply-To: <199603010251.UAA15618@ns.tecinfo.com> from "George M. Dailey" at Feb 29, 96 08:51:49 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: > > Could fine dirt affect a hot wire MAF? I would say so. The Bosch hot wire systems clean the wire by heating it up after the engine is stopped. I do not know about other systems... Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 15:24:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA26494; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:16:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26489; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:16:41 -0500 Received: from acmey.gatech.edu (bs73@acmey.gatech.edu [130.207.165.23]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14603 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:16:40 -0500 From: bs73@prism.gatech.edu (Brad Sheridan) Received: (bs73@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06198 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:16:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199603011516.KAA06198@acmey.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: LO VS. HI To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:16:38 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <960229235642_234859659@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "MTaylorfi@aol.com" at Feb 29, 96 11:56:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 221 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > What is the dynamic difference between low impedence peak-hold injectors and > high impedence injectors. Tell me Tell me Tell me. > > Mike The low impedance injectors have a slightly shorter turn on time. Brad From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 15:57:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA26701; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:50:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26696; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:50:31 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm2-07.magicnet.net [206.104.207.40]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05744 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:30:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199603011530.KAA05744@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 10:30:26 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: RE:RE: Ducted Fan Engine Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a >combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? > >- Just another wacked-out thought... You call that a whacked out thought? Try this. As you have plenty of gasoline on board so why not use a gasoline motor. A lawn mower engine or a weedwhacker would do nicely if geared up. It may not make enough power so you might have to turbocharge it. Which leads me to the final whacked out thought. Feed the exhaust from the weedwhacker engine into the input of the turbo thus using it as a backup boost generator. Connect the throttle of the weedwhacker to a servo controlled by boost pressure to maintain a closed loop system. Now you have full boost at idle. Thats a proper weedwhacker idea Peter Wales pjwales@magicnet.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 15:57:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA26679; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:48:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26673; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:48:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199603011548.KAA26673@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1598; Fri, 01 Mar 96 10:35:01 EST Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin BCLEMEN@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6002; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:35:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 10:28:02 EST From: "bclemen@cms.cc.wayne.edu" Subject: tubing and timing To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Alum. tubing bends can be purchased from: Woolf AircraftProd. 1-313-721-5330 GM's 2.2 4cyl. is currently using a 7 notch disc (6 even spaced 1 odd) on the crank and 1 notch disc on the cam for ign. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 16:00:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA26748; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:55:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from coyote.rain.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26743; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:55:44 -0500 Received: from port41.rain.org (port41.rain.org [198.68.144.141]) by coyote.rain.org (8.6.12/CSE) with SMTP id HAA28042 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:54:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:54:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199603011554.HAA28042@coyote.rain.org> X-Sender: dschmidt@rain.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: David Schmidt Subject: Optical Dist sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Nissan Sentras, and 240SX's from at least 91' up have this same setup, in case anyone wanted to tear one up from a junkyard. I would guess the Maxima has one too. It isn't just for their high end car! Dave > As a matter of interest the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo distributor has 2 > sensors in it. One reads crank angle from the 360 lines on the disc and the > other reads an encoded cylinder number from the 3 digit code. Japanese > engineering! >I was actually surprised that no one was doing this. (until now, that is) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 17:23:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA27525; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:10:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27520; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:10:37 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA11305 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:10:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199603011710.AA11305@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:10:16 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:10:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:09:32 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Detonation at idle X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 250 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "Should there be a very slight detection of detonation (knock) at idle with engine hot?" No. You need ridiculous timing advace to knock at idle. You are probably(and unfortunately) hearing a mechanical problem such as piston slap or bad lifters. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 20:08:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA28901; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:48:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from homer08.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA28896; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:48:23 -0500 Received: by homer08.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.02/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA143163; Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:48:18 -0800 X-Sender: mcmansp2@homer08.u.washington.edu Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:48:18 -0800 (PST) From: Sean McManus To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: LO VS. HI In-Reply-To: <960229235642_234859659@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike: If you want the "stuff" on injectors, pick up SAE Recommended Practice J1832. According to this document, peak and holds open with about a one msec delay and close with about a 1/2 ms delay. Saturated injectors open with about two ms delay and close with about a one ms delay. Seems that saturated works well on most applications, peak and hold more appropriate for engines with high specific output, say more than 100 hp/liter, where they need a lot of max flow but at the same time need good control for very small pulse widths (ie idle, low load and rpm). Sean McManus University of Washington Formula SAE Yamaha FZR 600 power On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 MTaylorfi@aol.com wrote: > What is the dynamic difference between low impedence peak-hold injectors and > high impedence injectors. Tell me Tell me Tell me. > > See ya, > > Mike > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 21:04:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA29559; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:50:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from remus.ultranet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29549; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:50:36 -0500 Received: from aoi.ultranet.com (aoi.ultranet.com [204.213.66.57]) by remus.ultranet.com (8.7.1/dae0.6) with SMTP id PAA17428 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by aoi.ultranet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08565; Fri, 1 Mar 96 12:41:52 EST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 12:41:52 EST From: tarun@aoi.ultranet.com (Tarun Patel) Message-Id: <9603011741.AA08565@aoi.ultranet.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Totally tubular, man Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Is JC Whitney catalog ON-Line ?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 21:31:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA29703; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 21:18:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Norway.EU.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29698; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:18:51 -0500 Received: by Norway.EU.net with UUCP id AA02756 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4/EUnet/NO for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 1 Mar 1996 22:18:47 +0100 Received: by ade.no (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 01 Mar 96 17:17:37 CET for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 17:17:35 CET From: einarp@ade.no (einarp) Subject: Hi-res crank sensor. To: diy_efi Lines: 59 Message-Id: <2311rci60@ade.no> X-Mailer: Alamito Mail and News Manager (V1.2.0) (unregistered) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It seems I was not expressing myself very exact when I presented this: * x _ _ _ _ _ _ _/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_ I should also have mentioned that I assumed the sensor signals would be run through a zero crossing detector first. Like for example the LM1815. A short pulse would come out of it starting at the zero crossing of each sensor. That will again coincide with the point where it is "on the top of" the tooth, like "*" in the above drawing. The pulses out of "X" will come inbetween the pulses from "*". Set the pulse time short enough that the pulses from the two sensors will not be active at the same time even at the highest RPM. It should look something like this: __/\ _____/\ ______/\ _______/\ ____ Sensor "*" output \/ \/ \/ \/ ______/\ _______/\ ______/\ ______/\ __ Sensor "x" output \/ \/ \/ \/ ___II________II________II________II_____ Zero Cross "*" ________II________II________II________II_ Zero Cross "x" ___II___II___II___II___II___II___II___ OR of the above My point with this is that each of the two sensors are detected at a point of their waveform that is not dependent on the shape of the tooth, or the distance sensor/tooth. It's only depending on one sensor being above the middle of the tooth at the same time the other is midway between two teeth. If we had a nice sinewave shaped signal out of the sensor, it would have been much simpler. We could just detect positive and negative peaks of one sensor. But look at the sensor signal and you will see it looks more like my ASCII drawing than a sinewave at low RPM. It will approach a sinewave as speed increases and the "_" part (of the sensor signal) shrinks. I think some of the the previous postings assume a sinewave signal. For the DIY'er with lots of time on hand: Log the time interval between zero crossings related to each cylinder during cranking, and you can tell if one cylinder is low on compression relative to the others. It should be possible assuming you have 300 pulses per revolution as you would get from the above picking pulses off of a 150 tooth flywheel ring. -- einarp@ade.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 1 23:31:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA00767; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:25:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00762; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 18:25:43 -0500 Received: from ptp10.tecinfo.com (ptp10.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.232]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA22637 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:18:57 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:18:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199603012318.RAA22637@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Detonation at idle Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:09 PM 3/1/96 +0500, you wrote: >"Should there be a very slight detection of detonation (knock) at idle > with engine hot?" > >No. You need ridiculous timing advace to knock at idle. You are >probably(and unfortunately) hearing a mechanical problem such as >piston slap or bad lifters. > ====================================================== On my last 350 TBI engine, I noticed that if the engine was hot (190 deg. F) and the inlet air was hot, if you advanced the timeing you would hear what sounded like detonation. You did not have to go far! When the timeing was retarded the sounds would go away. Let me also add that you don't hear the sound just off idle and it's around the same sound level of the injectors clicks. The hood must be up to even hear the sounds. When under full throttle, I'm sure that it's slightly detonating. I'm not sure if the ECM is detecting 100% of the detanation. I once herd that the GM ESC will rattle just a little, some times, at full load. I've herd a TBI rattle with the nock sensor disconnected at full load. My TPI is no way near this. BTW 79,000 miles on the clock, car was driven every day, auh 'aggressively' but well pampered as far as maintenance is concerned. It kissed another car. Thanks for your input Dudes. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 2 01:24:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA01402; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:14:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet01.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA01397; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:14:38 -0500 Received: (from jgn@localhost) by linet01.li.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) id UAA23822; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:14:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Napoli To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Totally tubular, man In-Reply-To: <9603011741.AA08565@aoi.ultranet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It is not, but they have an 800 #. BTW, for mandrel-bent tubing, try your local muffler shop! Regards, John On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Tarun Patel wrote: > Is JC Whitney catalog ON-Line ?? > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 2 18:42:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA04302; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:23:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from halcyon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04297; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 13:23:02 -0500 Received: from samco.halcyon.com (blv-pm3-ip21.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA04934 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:22:58 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:22:58 -0800 Message-Id: <199603021822.AA04934@halcyon.com> X-Sender: samco@halcyon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sam Stoney Subject: Re: u-bends Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: renns@bserv.com (Roger Enns) >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:48:34 GMT >Subject: Re: Totally tubular, man > >> >>Where can I find mandrel bent "U" shaped aluminum and steel tubing for >>fabricating intake and exhaust plumbing? >> >> Dan Bocek > >Check out the exhaust section of your JC Whitney catalog. I've bought a lot of tubing from JC Whitney. They are by far the lowest price I've found but they are inconsistant in both delivery and tube wall thickness. Usually I get 20 guage, but ometimes it comes as 18 guage or thicker. The stuff is real good for test pipes but if you're goung to make something real nice and chrome it or something go to Aircone in Henderson, NV. These guys are much more expensive, though. They will also make up tapers and colectors. As far as other materials: Kinsler sells AL U-bends; funny thing, they're not cheap. Not a very good selection, either. I don't know of another source for AL and I'd like to know of one. Aircraft Spruce sells thinwall Stainless u-bends. Their # is 800 824 1930. They have all sorts of other materials in their catalogue, and they sell in small quantities, too. Anybody got a lead for TI tubing? Sam From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 2 22:12:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA05364; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:56:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA05359; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:50 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA06048 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:48 -0500 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA27213 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:48 -0500 Received: from metlab6.my.mtu.edu (metlab6.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.86]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id QAA16554 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:40 -0500 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab6.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id QAA04692 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199603022156.QAA04692@metlab6.my.mtu.edu> Subject: Re: Hi-resolution Crank angle sensor To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:56:53 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9602010301.AA18735@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> from "dn" at Feb 29, 96 08:01:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3835 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Darrell A. Norquay wrote: > > As a matter of interest the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo distributor has 2 > > sensors in it. One reads crank angle from the 360 lines on the disc and the > > other reads an encoded cylinder number from the 3 digit code. Japanese > > engineering! > > I was actually surprised that no one was doing this. (until now, that is) > This is a combination of a relative position sensor (the 360 lines) and an > absolute position sensor (the 3 digit coded portion of the wheel) There > are many examples of commercially available encoders of both types, but > to my knowledge there is no combination of the 2 used in industrial > position sensing. For a DIS type system, should be easy to substitute an > optical encoder for the guts of the distributor and get any timing accuracy > you want. Optical encoders are notoriously fragile, however, and you may > have a hard time finding one that will live a long and fruitful life in the > underhood environment... Okay..I didn't bother to mention this because I figured it was more trouble than it was worth but I was thinking in terms of optical encoders instead of magnetic ones because optical encoders are infinitely easier to work with for home construction because I can simply take a flat disk and drill hole patterns in it with much better precision than I think I could get away with making a toothed ring/gear. As for survivability, I think the only way to get an optical encoder to survive is to get it really good and sealed up. I'm thinking that the part that holds the interruptor modules should be part of a shroud that totally encases the optical encoder wheel except for maybe a hole at the bottom for drainage and a hole for the shaft that is turning. As for using the standard white/black markings, I don't think this is a good idea. Putting a hole completely through a disk lets you put sensors on either side and as long as the holes don't get clogged (easier to clean than munging up a nice optical encoder pattern on plain white paper) is probably just as easy to make. Also, standard emitter/receiver pairs are available for about $3 (check a Digikey catalog) that are already set up for that arrangement. The advantage of the magnetic encoder is that there's much less opportunity for the disk to get munged up since it is just a gear and will tend to centerfuge off anything that isn't sufficiently sticky (assuming you have it exposed). I don't know what your controller would think of having the encoder immersed half in water or some really nasty mud though. Now..to comment on a few other things that were said..the reason I was thinking in terms of totally analog PLL's instead of digital ones is that in analog, making up the various filters in the loops requires only a couple fairly cheap op-amps. Reading the resulting output can be done with counters. I was trying to come up with a way that the CPU could just read an external 8 bit register whenever it was ready and the hardware would handle most of the filtering before it got to the CPU. I figured a simple 1 or 2 pole filter on a PLL (which inherently cleans up noise and does the differentiation on the input signal) would be a cheaper and simpler route than doing all the data smoothing/cleaning in the CPU. You'll have to use an A/D on the error voltage then (okay..you can do slope integration and such but it's still A/D when you get down to it), but the loop does all the filtering. I was still trying to think in terms of something that could be easily constructed for the .1 kilobuck range. But..I just found out about the ADSP2181 this week so I may be tempted back into the totally digital filtering realm (the problem with the $10 ADSP2105 was the development system cost..the ADSP2181 development system is $90 which changes the picture significantly). From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 3 03:54:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA06821; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 03:44:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA06810; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:44:44 -0500 From: Mitsu16v@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29398 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:44:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: <960302224441_158569843@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ducted Fan Engine Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 96-03-01 09:43:50 EST, you write: >How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a >combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? > > Pardon my density... but... what IS a free-piston engine? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 3 03:57:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA06852; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 03:50:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA06847; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:50:46 -0500 From: Mitsu16v@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA07642 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:51:28 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:51:28 -0500 Message-ID: <960302224524_158569825@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ducted Fan Engine Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 96-03-01 03:17:46 EST, you write: >There is available very powerful electric motors to be used in >electric r/c aeroplanes, those might be usable also. I think they >are available about same power levels as glow-plug model engines. Yeah there are some available that put out comparable levels of power.. but they're mainly equivalent to .049's and the like.. and when you put them in the high heat environs under the hood, the lifespan and the efficiency are going to go WAY down... :< Guess I'm gonna have to spring for that full on exhaust manifold and turbo system... :< Anybody got any other ideas about increasing the power?? I have heard there are some "run-what-ya-brung" type things to increase efficiency By tuning... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 3 17:28:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA08923; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:16:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA08918; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:16:38 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <230>; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:16:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:16:27 -0500 From: CHAN WEN YEN X-Sender: chanwe@indy1.ecf To: diy_efi cc: chanwe@ecf.toronto.edu Subject: rough idle -- help Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm repairing a 1990 Acura Integra with the 1.8 l engine (no MAF sensor) . The engine has a rough idle when the ambient air temperature is below zero and the engine is warm. The idle will dip as low as 500 RPM when the brake is applied (the car is not automatic) and will eventually settle just below the normal idle (normal idle - 750). The idle will also fluctuate +/- 50 RPM @ idle. During periods of rough idling the vacuum fluctuates rapidly +/- 1/4 inHG about 19 inHG. I have changed the air and fuel filters, the spark plugs, the distributor cap, the PCV valve, reset the base idle & advance, set the valve lash, removed the carbon from the intake manifold, throttle plate & valves and used about 4 doses of fuel injector cleaner (motormaster brand). After changing the air & fuel filters the idle was smooth & stable for about 5 min. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks. WenYen Chan chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca p.s. has anyone considered using 1) a nitromethane/methanol fuel blend (ie: model airplane fuel)? 2) a scuba tank with a high flow regulator feeding the intake instead of turbo. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 3 20:11:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA09448; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:57:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from irene.pcug.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09443; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:57:40 -0500 Received: from Helen.PCUG.CO.UK by irene.pcug.co.uk id aa18107; 3 Mar 96 19:57 GMT Received: from turbo by helen.pcug.co.uk id aa22733; 3 Mar 96 19:57 GMT Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:40:56 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <129@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:40:56 Subject: Re: Turbo Lag From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? Brian Warburton > >>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >really work. >> > GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 00:59:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA09955; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:47:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA09950; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:47:48 -0500 Received: from p4-0.net-link.net (p4-0 [205.217.6.194]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA06664 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:44:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199603040044.TAA06664@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:35:20 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Bill Sarkozy Subject: Re: Turbo Lag Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 07:40 PM 3/3/96, you wrote: >Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it >appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a >tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of >compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to >produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got >your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it >straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical >losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? > > Brian Warburton > >> >>>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >>frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >>ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >>During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >>needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >>parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >>the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >>really work. >>> >> GMD > > I think you'll find that an air motor used to spin up a centrifugal compressor would require air at substantial pressure (i.e. >100 psi). A centrifugal turbine wouldn't have a prayer of delivering air at that pressure. You'd need the equivilent of an electric transfomer to convert low-pressure/high-volume air to the high-pressure/low-volume air required by the air motor.....or else compress the air directly using a (gasp!) belt-driven vane or piston compressor. The beauty of the turbocharger is that both the input and output sections are of similar "impedance" and no transformation is required. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 05:50:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA10650; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 05:38:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA10645; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:38:43 -0500 Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA23299; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:38:41 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:38:41 -0800 Message-Id: <199603040538.VAA23299@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Turbo Lag To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu i think a high output alternator w high voltage high frequency out put and some sort of electronic regulator device remember a 300 amp alternator could be made quite small and being 3 phase is easily rectified to 150 or 300 vdc maximum and being a rotating field alt. the power output could be easily regulated all you need is a special field or use a step up trans former . question ': howmany horse power does a turbochager TURBINE develope? i dont think it'sreally that much. few hp ???. believe me an electronic approach is much better than air .;but i do LIKE the hydralic motor approach but those thing turn quite slow and speed increasers arent always that reliable . From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 10:32:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA11157; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:18:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hplms26.hpl.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA11152; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 05:18:51 -0500 Received: from dilbert.hpl.hp.com by hplms26.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.36.108.11 $/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1S) id AA010414729; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:18:49 -0800 Received: by dilbert.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.17/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA245604695; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:18:15 -0800 From: Gerald Luiz Message-Id: <199603041018.AA245604695@dilbert.hpl.hp.com> Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 2:18:15 PST In-Reply-To: <199603011554.HAA28042@coyote.rain.org>; from "David Schmidt" at Mar 1, 96 7:54 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading the code to determine the cyl #. They have the 360 slots as described. Concentric with those, they have holes every 60 deg., since it runs at cam speed and 6 cyl. These inner slots alternate widths and #1 (0 deg) is different from all the rest. If anyone is interested, I can post the manual page (not that much info except for the picture). Gerald Luiz gluiz@hpl.hp.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 15:01:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA12065; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:46:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA12060; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:31 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA03805 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:23 -0500 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA08166 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:23 -0500 Received: from metlab6.my.mtu.edu (metlab6.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.86]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id JAA00380 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:15 -0500 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab6.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id JAA06719 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199603041446.JAA06719@metlab6.my.mtu.edu> Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:46:29 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199603041018.AA245604695@dilbert.hpl.hp.com> from "Gerald Luiz" at Mar 4, 96 02:18:15 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 384 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to > the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading > the code to determine the cyl #. Easy..say you put 3 different optical sensors in. Then put a pattern in front of them that has black and white marks which are the binary codes for the cylinder (000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111). From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 18:52:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA16760; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:36:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16754; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:35:58 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA016644554; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:35:55 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA082424552; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:35:52 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 11:35:35 -0700 Message-Id: To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Item Subject: cc:Mail Text I have converted a carburetted, 4-cylinder, '75 MGB to Bosch L-Jetronic Fuel Injection. The car works fine and there are no problems with the conversion. The purpose was mostly to see if it could be done, and to improve on the mixture accuracy. No lambda sesor is used. The L-Jetronic uses the trottle position to change the A/F ratio. At about 2/3 full trottle a switch closes and enriches the mixture. Later versions of the Bosch system used manifold vacuum to activate a switch. I want to change my system to this method. I want to enrich the mixture when the manifold vacuum drops. Does anyone have the Bosch number for such a switch? Where can I get one? Or what kind of car has this part so I can get it from a junk yard? Any help is appreciated. Werner From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 22:25:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA18606; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:09:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from homer14.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA18601; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:09:09 -0500 Received: by homer14.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.02/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA66394; Mon, 4 Mar 96 14:09:06 -0800 X-Sender: mcmansp2@homer14.u.washington.edu Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:09:06 -0800 (PST) From: Sean McManus To: diy_efi Subject: Fuel Maps Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My main question here is: How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their system? Ultimately, the engine should be put on a dyno and loaded in all sorts of conditions while the exhaust CO, HC, O2 and CO2 is monitored, as well as rpm, torque, manifold pressure, etc. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the funds for this type of testing. The alternate method that seems most feasible is using an on board O2 sensor based A/F meter such as Haltech's or K&N's, tuning the system by driving the car and watching the meter at various conditions. 1) Has anyone had any luck dialing in their system in this manner? 2) Can an O2 sensor based A/F meter be purchased or fabricated for less than the $150-$200 range that I've seen them going for so far? Thanks in advance, Sean McManus University of Washington Formula SAE Yamaha FZR 600 power, modified Haltech F3/Siemens fuel system From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 23:04:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA18861; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:49:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA18856; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:49:51 -0500 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA26471; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:49:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:49:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199603042249.OAA26471@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu heres an idea take a gm map sensor and use the signal output 0- 5vdc to drive a schmitt trigger circuit with a variable trip point and settable hysterisis " all it takes is a op amp and a relay". From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 23:18:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA18949; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:10:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hplabs.hpl.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA18944; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:10:13 -0500 Received: from dilbert.hpl.hp.com by hplabs.hpl.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1SU) id AA282611007; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:10:08 -0800 Received: by dilbert.hpl.hp.com (1.37.109.17/15.5+ECS 3.3+HPL1.1) id AA254560973; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:09:33 -0800 From: Gerald Luiz Message-Id: <199603042309.AA254560973@dilbert.hpl.hp.com> Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 15:09:33 PST In-Reply-To: <199603041446.JAA06719@metlab6.my.mtu.edu>; from "Paul E. Campbell" at Mar 4, 96 9:46 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to > > the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading > > the code to determine the cyl #. > > Easy..say you put 3 different optical sensors in. Then put a pattern in front > of them that has black and white marks which are the binary codes for the > cylinder (000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111). > Right. I was actaully trying to say that I didn't understand the coding on the Nissan b/c it does not have black/white patterns...just holes/slots. They must detect the width of the pulse (slots different widths) to mark 60/120 etc. I wonder if the end of a slot corresponds to 60 deg or the beginning of a hole. I expect the former. Gerald Luiz gluiz@hpl.hp.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 4 23:19:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA18934; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:09:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA18925; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:09:26 -0500 Received: from axonet.com.au ([203.63.6.253]) by yarrina.connect.com.au with SMTP id KAA06376 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:08:58 +1100 Received: by axonet.com.au with NT SMTP Gateway ver 31 id <313B8617@axonet.com.au>; Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:08:55 S From: Andrew Dalgleish To: "'diy_efi'" Subject: RE: Optical Dist sensors Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:04:00 S Message-ID: <313B8617@axonet.com.au> Encoding: 38 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Generating the pattern is pretty easy with a PC and printer, although the resolution wouldn't be good enough. If you print it out at some huge resolution then reduce it photographically it'd be ok. Any photographer could do it for you. Or print it inverse then just use the film negative. You need at least two sensors anyway (one for cylinder #1 TDC and one for angular resolution), so going to 3 or more isn't going to be much dearer. Using two (or more) "tracks" with quadrature encoding could give you very fine angular resolution. ++++++++++++ --__--__--__ Sensor 1 _--__--__--_ Sensor 2 -_-_-_-_-_-_ Exclusive OR ++++++++++++ ---___---___ Sensor 1 _---___---__ Sensor 2 __---___---_ Sensor 3 -_-_-_-_-_-_ Exclusive OR ++++++++++++ (view this with a fixed-pitch font, eg Courier) Makes me wonder why I piddled around using counter chips all these years. Hmm... time to investigate multiple sensor arrays. I recall seeing a 16-pin DIP with 8 photo-transistors in it years ago. A British magazine had a kit to store programs, etc. on paper. Can anyone help my memory? Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 00:03:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA19061; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:45:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA19056; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:45:43 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA082513130; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:45:31 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA283763128; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 16:45:28 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 16:45:00 -0700 Message-Id: Subject: Re: L-jetronic To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Item Subject: L-jetronic Hi James I'm new at this list, so I don't know if I should reply to each person, or send my reply to DIY_EFI. I never did see my own message, so I don't know how everyone else saw it. Am I getting other peoples messages? Anyway, James, you're not confused. The my L-Jetronic does have an air meter. It also has a lambda sensor. At 2/3 or more trottle a switch closes, and the lambda sensor circuit is disconnected, the mixture gets richer by about 4% for a little more power and knock protection. Later ( oh.... about '86) the trottle switch was replaced with a vacuum switch to sense the manifold. This way even when the trottle is opened only half way at low rpm, the vacuum drops, the switch closes and the mixture goes rich by ~4%. James, thanks for the offer of the '79 Supra, but no. I have all the parts I need, except this vacuum switch to replace the switch on the trottle shaft. The parts came from a '83 Renault Fuego. Most of the information came from the Bosch FI book ( I don't have the author handy) the the FI book by Hartman. Actual data is very hard to come by. I had no luck getting data from Bosch. If you need specifics I may be able to help. But not much. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james@brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:21 PM Werner, I thought that the L-jetronic (1979 and on) used an air flow meter, manifold vacuum to control A/F ratio???? The later LH-jetronic added and oxygen sensor. Am I confused??? Anyway I have a friend with a '79 Toyota Supra that has died at my parents place. I might be able to persuade him to part it out. It has the LH-jetronic and except for a couple of fuel pressure hoses the system works fine. Are you interested at all???? The car has blown a head gasket and thus he's got to tow it away to a wrecker and he'll probably get nothing for it. Sorry Werner I forgot to ask you if your L-type was a speed density system??? Where did you get your parts from for the conversion (ie. what car that is?) Do you have a good reference book that gives physical data on different sensors?? Like resistance of different coolant temp. sensors and whether they change their resistance in a linear, geometric or logarithmic fashion????? Thanks in advance jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 00:31:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA19144; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:13:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA19139; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 19:13:49 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA112394795; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 16:13:16 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA297124793; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:13:13 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 17:12:43 -0700 Message-Id: Subject: Re: L-jet on an MGB To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Item Subject: 1.txt "unix headers" Could not convert BINARY FILE item to text. Will attempt to 'shar' item as file '01v3m87' at end of msg. ....................................................................... Item Subject: L-jet on an MGB Hi Andy When I started, I knew nothing. Now that I have done one, it seems very easy. What kind of car do you have. If you have a Renault engine, it should be a piece of cake. The MGB had special problems. It has a siamese intake port (Two intake valves with one intake hole on the head). Worse, the intake stroke for this siamese port is not symetrical. I had intentions of having port injection, but because of the siamese ports with non-symetrical intake stroke I decided to go the trottle body injection route. This is undesirable, and not necessary if you have individual ports per cylinder. The system I used was from a '83 Fuego. I used everything. The complication came two ways. 1. I had to match a trottlle body injector to the system. I used a Ford trottle body with a single Bosch injector. 2. The other trick was the mixture. I wanted to run at a richer mixture than the 'ideal'. Mostly because the manifold was not designed for a lean mixture. To mount the injectors, I suggest you try to get a FI manifold from a car with the same engine but at a later time. Lotus did a lot with Renault engines didn't they? If you have a modified Renault engine (Lotus Europa), check out the Jeff Hartman book 'Fuel Injection; Installation, Performance Tuning, Modification. Anyway mountings are available for injectors, that book gives some examples. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jet on an MGB Author: Non-HP-ajh (ajh@diamond.idbsu.edu) at HP-ColSprings,shargw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:18 PM Werner, I'm thinking also of putting FI onto my 70's British car (Lotus). What did you think overall of your project? How did you deal with the intake manifold, esp. with installation of the injectors? Does the range of air and fuel flow rates seem reasonable? Did you acquire your L-jet new or salvaged? thanks, andy # This is a shell archive. Remove anything before this line, # then unpack it by saving it in a file and typing "sh file". # # Wrapped by HP OpenMail user on Mon Mar 4 17:13:13 1996 # # This archive contains: # 01v3m87 # # Error checking via wc(1) will be performed. LANG=""; export LANG PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH; export PATH rm -f /tmp/uud$$ (echo "begin 666 /tmp/uud$$\n#;VL*n#6%@x\n \nend" | uudecode) >/dev/null 2>&1 if [ X"`cat /tmp/uud$$ 2>&1`" = Xok ] then unpacker=uudecode else echo Compiling unpacker for non-ascii files pwd=`pwd`; cd /tmp cat >unpack$$.c <<'EOF' #include #define C (*p++ - ' ' & 077) main() { int n; char buf[128], *p, a,b; scanf("begin %o ", &n); gets(buf); if (freopen(buf, "w", stdout) == NULL) { perror(buf); exit(1); } while (gets(p=buf) && (n=C)) { while (n>0) { a = C; if (n-- > 0) putchar(a << 2 | (b=C) >> 4); if (n-- > 0) putchar(b << 4 | (a=C) >> 2); if (n-- > 0) putchar(a << 6 | C); } } exit(0); } EOF cc -o unpack$$ unpack$$.c rm unpack$$.c cd $pwd unpacker=/tmp/unpack$$ fi rm -f /tmp/uud$$ echo x - 01v3m87 '[non-ascii]' $unpacker <<'@eof' begin 660 01v3m87 M4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT@2YH<"YC;VT^#0I296-E:79E9#H@8GD@9&EA;6]NX M9"YI9&)S=2YE9'4-"@DH,2XS-RXQ,#DN,38O,38N,BD@:60@04$Q-C,W-C$TX M.#D[($UO;BP@-"!-87(@,3DY-B Q-CHQ.#HP.2 M,# Received: from usa.nai.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA19899; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:34:42 -0500 Received: from naihp24.nai.net (naihp24.nai.net [204.71.21.231]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA01500 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:33:33 GMT Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:33:33 GMT Message-Id: <199603042233.WAA01500@usa.nai.net> X-Sender: btm@mailhost.nai.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Brad Martin Subject: watercooled VW EFI Q's Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello fellow listsurfers- I have several variations of the watercooled VW FI systems and I'd love some more info on them... My assortment includes about a dozen systems ranging from '77 Rabbit to '84 Rabbit GTI stuff (a very little Golf also). It appears to me that the earliest systems are completely mechanical... ie air flow meter controls fuel pressure in the loop, excess discarded back to tank. What are the pro & cons of a completely mech. system esp. in a racing app. (racing=Dirt pro-rally, hillclimb (paved & dirt), road race, autox)? Then you've got the electronic version both w/o & w/ O2 sensor & it seems that this is where there are some varying orifice dimensions across models & years, both in throttle body & air flow meter (whats the proper name for this?) How can I choose an optimum induction system diameter after engine mods? Does anyone have a schematic of the guts of the black box - both idle stabilzer and ignition control unit if possible? I know I'm firing off alot of questions, but I guess my general intent is to stir up the VW lurkers! Thanks! and here's my vote for an excellent forum... Regards- Brad Martin '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '81 VW Scirocco S street car TBD '79 VW Scirocco ice racer ==== Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html (bmi CAD's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html (Stealth Racing's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html (New England Hillclimb Association's homepage) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 03:45:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA19892; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 03:29:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cougar.multiline.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA19887; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:29:12 -0500 Received: from at.multiline.com.au (sl10.multiline.com.au [203.5.127.240]) by cougar.multiline.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09120 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:22:35 +0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4b11.32.19960305032250.00682024@multiline.com.au> X-Sender: at@multiline.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4b11 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 11:22:50 +0800 To: diy_efi From: Adam Tate Subject: Re: Fuel Maps Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:09 PM 4/3/96 -0800, you wrote: >2) Can an O2 sensor based A/F meter be purchased or fabricated for less >than the $150-$200 range that I've seen them going for so far? Here in Australia you can buy this in kit form for $20 from a place called Jaycar electronics. If you check out the DIY fuel injection web site there are also plans there for this type of meter. Adam Tate. [at@multiline.com.au] http://www.multiline.com.au/~atate/index.html From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 04:13:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA19959; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 04:00:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA19954; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:00:17 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id UAA04684 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 20:45:56 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 96 20:51 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Mon, 4 Mar 96 20:55:01 EDT Message-Id: <9602050355.AA18796@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: RE: Optical Dist sensors To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 20:54:58 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <313B8617@axonet.com.au>; from "Andrew Dalgleish" at Mar 5, 96 10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Andrew Dalgleish writes: > Generating the pattern is pretty easy with a PC and printer, although the > resolution wouldn't be good enough. If you print it out at some huge > resolution then reduce it photographically it'd be ok. Any photographer > could do it for you. Or print it inverse then just use the film negative. I actually did this one time to make my own encoder. I generated the pattern with a CAD program (Generic Cadd), output the file in Postscript, and printed it on the laser printer on clear transparency film. Worked great! The pattern came out crystal clear, I then glued the transparent film onto an aluminum disk and used reflective opto sensors to read it. I ended up using a commercial encoder, however, because the housing was too expensive to machine in quantity. I assume there would be a limit as to how small you could go using this method, but a decent laser printer could make the thing very small with very little loss in image quality. Using a CADD program, you can scale the drawing to any size you want. > You need at least two sensors anyway (one for cylinder #1 TDC and one for > angular resolution), so going to 3 or more isn't going to be much dearer. All you really need is the 2 quadrature tracks, plus a single "index" marker which generates a pulse once per revolution. In this manner, you have a sync pulse which tells you when you have gone one full turn, and simply reference everything to the sync pulse... > Makes me wonder why I piddled around using counter chips all these years. Look into the Hewlett Packard HCTL2016 chip - it has a complete quadrature decoder with digital filtering, and a 16 bit counter readable by any CPU. Works like a damn, and is really easy to use... > Hmm... time to investigate multiple sensor arrays. > I recall seeing a 16-pin DIP with 8 photo-transistors in it years ago. These were used in the ancient but venerable paper tape readers. I doubt if you could still find them, but I think TI used to make some. They still make linear CCD arrays, but these are kind of a pain to interface. You could always use discrete surface mount photo transistors, you can pack them really close together. This is what most optical encoder manufacturers use. Difficult to work with SMD components, though. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 04:30:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA20001; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 04:18:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA19996; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:17:44 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA04692 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 21:00:46 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 96 21:06 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Mon, 4 Mar 96 21:07:40 EDT Message-Id: <9602050407.AA18797@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 21:07:37 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199603042309.AA254560973@dilbert.hpl.hp.com>; from "Gerald Luiz" at Mar 4, 96 3:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Gerald Luiz wrote: > Right. I was actaully trying to say that I didn't understand the coding on > the Nissan b/c it does not have black/white patterns...just holes/slots. > They must detect the width of the pulse (slots different widths) to mark > 60/120 etc. I wonder if the end of a slot corresponds to 60 deg or the > beginning of a hole. I expect the former. Are the slots radial or circular? If they are radial, they may be just positioned every x degrees and give a pulse when they pass by the sensor. If they are circular, it may be that they use a Gray Code scheme, which gives a unique binary position indication for each pattern of holes. With this setup, there would have to be at least 3 sensors, corresponding to 3 sets of semicircular slots. With the radial method, there would only be 1 sensor. In either case, the sensors/light sources would be arranged in pairs, one on each side of the disk, and where there is a hole, the light would shine through and activate the sensor, no hole would block light and the sensor would be off. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 05:36:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA20139; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:23:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ktk1 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA20134; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:22:57 -0500 From: lowell@smartt.com Received: from lowell.smartt.com by ktk1 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA24744; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 21:23:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 21:23:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199603050523.VAA24744@ktk1> X-Sender: lowell@smartt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #64 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: CHAN WEN YEN >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:16:27 -0500 >Subject: rough idle -- help > >I'm repairing a 1990 Acura Integra with the 1.8 l engine (no MAF sensor) >. The engine has a rough idle when the ambient air temperature is below >zero and the engine is warm. The idle will dip as low as 500 RPM when the >brake is applied (the car is not automatic) and will eventually settle >just below the normal idle (normal idle - 750). The idle will also >fluctuate +/- 50 RPM @ idle. During periods of rough idling the >vacuum fluctuates rapidly +/- 1/4 inHG about 19 inHG. > > I have changed the air and fuel filters, the spark plugs, the >distributor cap, the PCV valve, reset the base idle & advance, set the >valve lash, removed the carbon from the intake manifold, throttle plate >& valves and used about 4 doses of fuel injector cleaner (motormaster >brand). After changing the air & fuel filters the idle was smooth & >stable for about 5 min. Watch the voltage at the EACV (idle valve) or try pinching the hose to it. If the idle stops bouncing around, it could be sticky, or the ECU is being fooled somehow. Take the valve off and turn the key from off too accessory. It should open fully and close fully when the key is turned off. Things that affect EACV voltage would be: electric load detector, coolant temp sensor, throttle position, rpm, basicaly lots to look at. Try and get a factory shop manual for a good explanation of how it all works. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 05:44:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA20182; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:37:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA20177; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:37:12 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA03834 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:37:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:37:11 -0500 Message-ID: <960305003710_160423337@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Better to use grey code 000, 001, 011, 010, 110, 111, 101, 100. Only one bit is changed at a time. Useful in error checking.... See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 06:03:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA20223; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:51:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA20218; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:51:03 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA03279 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:51:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:51:03 -0500 Message-ID: <960305005102_160433194@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Volumetric eff. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I was wondering, does anyone know of a function that roughly follows the V.E. vs. RPM of an engine. Engine size, manifold pressure and intake temperature I'm sure affect V.E., but I'm just looking for a cheap estimate. All you MAP die-hards have made me rethink my already working MAF based EFI system. The $150 MAF sensor is pricey.. See ya and thanks in advanced!! Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 07:28:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA20397; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:16:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix8.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA20392; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 02:16:54 -0500 Received: from by ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA20937; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:16:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:16:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199603050716.XAA20937@ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu thats why many cars dont use a maf or use one of inferior design or quality do you realize how much the customer would pay for a $150 item on a new car i dont think the ones that ford or gm uses cost that much for them to manufacture. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 13:39:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA21089; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:28:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA21084; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:28:27 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 05 Mar 96 08:27:28 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02536; Tue, 5 Mar 96 08:28:29 EST Message-Id: <9603051328.AA02536@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:52:55 +0000 Subject: Subaru EFI Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a 27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected device. Any suggestions? --- David Parrish From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 14:52:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA21368; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:39:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA21362; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:39:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199603051439.JAA21362@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA154406771; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:39:31 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 9:39:31 EST In-Reply-To: <199603042249.OAA26471@ix11.ix.netcom.com>; from "ARTHUR OKUN" at Mar 04, 96 2:49 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ heres an idea take a gm map sensor and use the signal output 0- ~ 5vdc to drive a schmitt trigger circuit with a variable trip point ~ and settable hysterisis " all it takes is a op amp and a relay". ~ Does the GM MAP sensor put out a 0-5 volt signal? (I have always wondered). If so, could someone out there elaborate (on pinout, range, etc.)? - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:03:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA21792; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:46:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA21787; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:46:42 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA184550756; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:45:57 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA147570754; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:45:54 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 08:45:36 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199603051510.KAA15043@mh004.infi.net> Subject: Re: L-jetronic To: orin@nr.infi.net, DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Orin Yes the car runs good with the Bosch system. I increased the pressure at the injector to 17.5lb, and loosened the spring at the air meter by two notches. That worked real good. I later found a way to increase fuel flow by modifying the analog computer. This allowed me to use a standard air meter. The thing I want to do now is delete the trottle switch for enrichment. I never got it to fit well. I am looking for a vacuum switch for the fuel enrichment. The L-Jetronic system you used has such a switch. Do you have the Bosch number or do you have one? The injector I am using is four times a standard 288 cc/sec flow. I am doing this by memory, so it may be wrong. I gave you the PN for that injector. Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-orin (orin@nr.infi.net) at HP-ColSprings,shargw2 Date: 3/5/96 7:45 AM -- [ From: Orin Harding * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Werner, Did you ever find out what the flow specs. are for the Ford (Bosch) injectors are??? I remember you said that you were having trouble with the system running lean on the "B"..I had the same problem when I tried your approach and never could get the thing to run as I would like. I also never overcame the cold start problems..You know, on very cold days it would idle very rough...Warm days ok, but cold days really bad. I have switched over to the Electromotive TEC II and it runs fine, although a little lean, but the system is very expensive and defeated the real purpose...A cheap replacement for the SU's or Zenith carbs...Let me know how you're making out ... Orin -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 04-Mar-96 04:45 PM From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com \ Internet: (werner_haussmann@hp-loveland-om2.om.hp.com) To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu \ Internet: (diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu) Subject: Re: L-jetronic Item Subject: L-jetronic Hi James I'm new at this list, so I don't know if I should reply to each person, or send my reply to DIY_EFI. I never did see my own message, so I don't know how everyone else saw it. Am I getting other peoples messages? Anyway, James, you're not confused. The my L-Jetronic does have an air meter. It also has a lambda sensor. At 2/3 or more trottle a switch closes , and the lambda sensor circuit is disconnected, the mixture gets richer by about 4% for a little more power and knock protection. Later ( oh.... about '86) the trottle switch was replaced with a vacuum switch to sense the manifold. This way even when the trottle is opened only half way at low rpm, the vacuum drops, the switch closes and the mixture goes rich by ~4%. James, thanks for the offer of the '79 Supra, but no. I have all the parts I need, except this vacuum switch to replace the switch on the trottle shaft. The parts came from a '83 Renault Fuego. Most of the information came from the Bosch FI book ( I don't have the author handy) the the FI book by Hartman. Actual data is very hard to come by. I had no luck getting data from Bosch . If you need specifics I may be able to help. But not much. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james@brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:21 PM Werner, I thought that the L-jetronic (1979 and on) used an air flow meter, manifold vacuum to control A/F ratio???? The later LH-jetronic added and oxygen sensor. Am I confused??? Anyway I have a friend with a '79 Toyota Supra that has died at my parents place. I might be able to persuade him to part it out. It has the LH- jetronic and except for a couple of fuel pressure hoses the system works fine. Are you interested at all???? The car has blown a head gasket and thus he's got to tow it away to a wrecker and he'll probably get nothing for it. Sorry Werner I forgot to ask you if your L-type was a speed density system? ?? Where did you get your parts from for the conversion (ie. what car that is?) Do you have a good reference book that gives physical data on different sensors?? Like resistance of different coolant temp. sensors and whether they change their resistance in a linear, geometric or logarithmic fashion????? Thanks in advance jw -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:12:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21837; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:03:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21832; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:03:46 -0500 Received: by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA08793; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:03:23 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:03:23 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth C. King" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors In-Reply-To: <960305003710_160423337@mail06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 MTaylorfi@aol.com wrote: > Better to use grey code > 000, 001, 011, 010, 110, 111, 101, 100. > Only one bit is changed at a time. Useful in error checking.... greetings: that's a great set for use in an 8 cyl car. for a 6banger, try: 000 001 011 010 110 100 fro a 4banger, try: 000 001 011 010 or: 00 01 11 10 (using 2 bits) "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:12:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21818; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:01:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from usa.nai.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21813; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:01:32 -0500 Received: from naihp13.nai.net (naihp13.nai.net [204.71.21.242]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA19702 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:00:23 GMT Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:00:23 GMT Message-Id: <199603051100.LAA19702@usa.nai.net> X-Sender: btm@mailhost.nai.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Brad Martin Subject: Re: Subaru EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >device. Any suggestions? > >--- >David Parrish David- Wow, was I suprised to see your email! I own 2 SVX's and have wanted more info about the ECU, etc for a while. I do own the factory service manuals, but this is only a small help. Although my company designs small analog & digital PCB's, I personally have very little EPROM experience Pls let me know what you turn up!! (& I'll do the same of course!) Regards- Brad Martin President bmi CAD Services 8E Herman Drive POB 522 Simsbury, CT 06070-0522 860-658-0808 voice 860-658-0404 fax 860-379-6187 voice2 (call here first) 860-738-0471 fax2 sales@bmicad.win.net ==== Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html (bmi CAD's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html (Stealth Racing's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html (New England Hillclimb Association's homepage) (The Hacker) '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '81 VW Scirocco S street car TBD '79 VW Scirocco ice racer From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:18:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA21863; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:09:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21858; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:09:40 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167510-1>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:09:20 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06624; Tue, 5 Mar 96 11:00:11 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006622; Tue Mar 5 10:59:57 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04982; Tue, 5 Mar 96 10:55:45 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA12339; Tue, 5 Mar 96 11:08:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:08:27 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603051608.AA12339@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Perhaps the best way to ball-park your VE curve is to use one of the engine simulator programs. Commercial programs, like Engine Analyzer ($80 at Summit) give VE figures as part of their "dyno" sheets. Bruce Bowling was working on an engine simulator. I don't know if he's gone any further with it, but the last time I looked it did not compute VE. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:36:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA22360; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:24:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fl51mail.space.honeywell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA22355; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:24:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199603051624.LAA22355@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from smtpmm.space.honeywell.com by fl51mail.space.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA02910; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:26:46 -0500 Date: 5 Mar 1996 11:22:38 U From: "Sandberg Eric F" Subject: To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu commands From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:58:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA22522; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:50:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA22517; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:50:32 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA01691 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:49:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199603051649.AA01691@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:49:59 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:49:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:49:47 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: L-jet on an MGB X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1050 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "I had intentions of having port injection, but because of the siamese ports with non-symetrical intake stroke I decided to go the trottle body injection route. This is undesirable, and not necessary if you have individual ports per cylinder." Actually, there is nothing wrong with assymetrical intake ports for the DIYer. There are OEM applications with these kind of ports, and if we can make it work to meet strict emissions and fuel economy standards, you can make it work for DIY. Just be careful which at port you choose for injecting fuel. "I was wondering, does anyone know of a function that roughly follows the V.E. vs. RPM of an engine. Engine size, manifold pressure and intake temperature I'm sure affect V.E., but I'm just looking for a cheap estimate." There is no cheap estimate or generic function. The variables you mention and many others preclude the use of generic functions. I'd have to agree with M Sargent on the use of commercial programs for your best/cheapest bet. They aren't perfect, but will do for DIY. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 16:58:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA22512; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:45:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diamond.idbsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA22507; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:45:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199603051645.LAA22507@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by diamond.idbsu.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA005694410; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:46:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:46:50 -0700 From: Andrew Huang To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <199603042233.WAA01500@usa.nai.net> (message from Brad Martin on Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:33:33 GMT) Subject: Re: watercooled VW EFI Q's Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 17:00:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA22531; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:53:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gw3.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA22526; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:52:58 -0500 Received: from ihgp1.ih.att.com by ig4.att.att.com id AA21783; Tue, 5 Mar 96 11:37:24 EST Received: by ihgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.2.1 sol2) id AA04208; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:36:29 -0600 From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar@att.com Received: by ihgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.2.1 sol2) id AA04153; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:36:17 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:36:17 -0600 Message-Id: <9603051636.AA04153@ihgp1.ih.att.com> Original-From: bohdan@ihgp.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and 4.9 volts. At atmospheric pressure, a GM or Chrysler MAP sensor designed for a self aspirated engine will output around 4.9 volts whereas a sensor designed for a supercharged engine will output around 2.5 volts. Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. Please keep in mind that the voltage/frequency reading will be dependent on altitude, weather conditions, etc. Typical connections to the sensor: black (signal ground, NOT power ground), red (5.0 volts reference), green (output signal, sometimes called "signal return"). About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure for a Ford MAP sensor. Now, does anyone have one for Chrysler stuff? If so, would you kindly mail it to me? Thanks, Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar@att.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 18:09:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA22868; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:00:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA22863; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:00:09 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18154 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:00:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603051800.LAA18154@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 11:00:01 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Subaru EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 GMT, you wrote: >At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >>I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >>engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >>find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >>27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >>device. Any suggestions? Yeah, I emailed Fujitsu's tech support ... Suggest you also call your local Fujitsu distributor Jim Conforti PS: WHATS THE PROCESSOR?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 18:09:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA22736; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:52:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA22731; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:52:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199603051752.MAA22731@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA174798360; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:52:40 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 12:52:40 EST In-Reply-To: <9603051608.AA12339@ivan.gallium.com>; from "Michael F. Sargent" at Mar 05, 96 11:08 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ Perhaps the best way to ball-park your VE curve is to use one of the engine ~ simulator programs. Commercial programs, like Engine Analyzer ($80 at Summit) ~ give VE figures as part of their "dyno" sheets. Bruce Bowling was working ~ on an engine simulator. I don't know if he's gone any further with it, but ~ the last time I looked it did not compute VE. ~ ~ Mike ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | ~ | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ ~ No, I never put in VE, because its computation is difficult to get even in "ballpark" terms. Re-phrasing: the actual computation is straightforward, the inputs are massive, much more than an average person would tolerate while keeping their sanity. The $80.00 code utilizes an empirical equation, similar (or exactly) to: VE = 5600 * ((Horsepower)/(RPM * CID)) * 100.0 and will yield $80.00 results. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 18:31:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA22969; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:15:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA22964; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:15:36 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18088; Tue, 5 Mar 96 10:12:54 PST Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01I1Z599EWKW0010YV@EDEN1.HAC.COM>; Tue, 05 Mar 1996 10:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.960305131248.288; 05 Mar 96 13:15:09 +0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:09:30 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: To: diy_efi Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Bowling wrote: > > Does the GM MAP sensor put out a 0-5 volt signal? (I have always wondered). > If so, could someone out there elaborate (on pinout, range, etc.)? > > - Bruce GM MAP sensors put out a 0-5 volt signal as you would expect. Be careful however, some of the GM MAPs have a positive scale factor and read ~5 volts at atmospheric pressure and ~ 0 at ~30 inches Hg vacuum while others have a NEGATIVE scale factor. This second type reads ~5 volts at ~ 30 inches Hg and 0 volts at atmospheric pressure. From experience, the sensor GM used on the '83 2.8 L v-6 was the second type while that used on the '87 2.5 L four was the first type. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 18:54:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA23030; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:41:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23025; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:41:52 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167428-1>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:41:46 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07926; Tue, 5 Mar 96 13:32:47 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007924; Tue Mar 5 13:32:39 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07485; Tue, 5 Mar 96 13:28:25 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA12513; Tue, 5 Mar 96 13:41:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:41:06 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603051841.AA12513@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > The $80.00 code utilizes an empirical equation, similar (or exactly) to: > VE = 5600 * ((Horsepower)/(RPM * CID)) * 100.0 > and will yield $80.00 results. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Bruce. Engine Analyzer works from the basic configuration of an engine (bore, stroke, valve size, nubmer of valves, CR, intake runner flow coefficient, carb or TB flow rating, etc.) and computes the VE. From the VE (and other parameters) it calculates torque and then using RPM calculates HP. It's fairly flexable in that it allows you to change things like intake and exhaust runner lengths to see the effects that tuning will have. The people who wrote Engine Analyzer claim it to be within +/- 15% of real world (i.e., dyno) results. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 21:19:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA24341; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:58:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24335; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:58:25 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com (lndshrk@[204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18034 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:58:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603052058.NAA18034@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 13:58:19 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone used DYNOMATION?? I'd like to BUY it, but cannot get anyone to contact me ... I even emailed the people from the DYNOMATION Home Page .. ARRGH! Any opinions of this software?? Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 21:20:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24372; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:12:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24366; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:12:19 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04677 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22400 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA06322; Tue, 5 Mar 96 16:17:30 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA04891; Tue, 5 Mar 96 16:16:56 EST Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 16:16:56 EST Message-Id: <9603052116.AA04891@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: MAP Sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just checked out a GM MAP sensor for my B&S system, and from a starting point of nothing, this is what I found out with a voltmeter and power supply. |-----------------| | ----- | |-----(o o o)-----| ----- 1 2 3 1 - Ground 2 - Output 3 - V+ (+5VDC) Output appears linear from 0V at full vacuum to +5VDC at 1Atm. I suspect the internals are a Motorola MPX51xx transducer or similar. It works, so I'm not going to disembowel it. The price was right (free) came off a mid-80's Olds midsize 4-banger. Cliff Ducharme From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 21:37:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA24505; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:24:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from usa.nai.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24500; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:24:15 -0500 Received: from naihp31.nai.net (naihp31.nai.net [204.71.21.224]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA04674 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:23:07 GMT Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:23:07 GMT Message-Id: <199603051623.QAA04674@usa.nai.net> X-Sender: btm@mailhost.nai.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Brad Martin Subject: Re: Subaru EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 GMT, you wrote: >>At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >>>I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >>>engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >>>find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >>>27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >>>device. Any suggestions? > > > Yeah, I emailed Fujitsu's tech support ... Do you still have the address you used? I'd be interested fi you could foward it! Thanks- Brad From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 22:09:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA24746; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:00:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsem01.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24741; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:00:51 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsem01.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA28643 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 5 Mar 96 15:00:42 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA26996; Tue, 5 Mar 96 15:00:38 MST Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA29027; Tue, 5 Mar 96 16:00:36 -0600 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04800; Tue, 5 Mar 96 16:13:09 CST Received: from cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA07128 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:00:30 -0500 From: Matt Sale Received: by cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id RAA02357 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:00:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199603052200.RAA02357@cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: MAP Sensor To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:00:29 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9603052116.AA04891@eiss1.psf.ge.com> from "ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com" at Mar 5, 96 04:16:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 675 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I just checked out a GM MAP sensor for my B&S system, and from a starting > point of nothing, this is what I found out with a voltmeter and power > supply. > > |-----------------| > | ----- | > |-----(o o o)-----| > ----- > 1 2 3 > > 1 - Ground > 2 - Output > 3 - V+ (+5VDC) > > Output appears linear from 0V at full vacuum to +5VDC at 1Atm. I suspect > the internals are a Motorola MPX51xx transducer or similar. It works, so > I'm not going to disembowel it. The price was right (free) came off a > mid-80's Olds midsize 4-banger. > > Cliff Ducharme > They're made by Delco Electronics. Matt Sale From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 23:02:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA25695; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:45:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA25690; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:45:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199603052245.RAA25690@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA220765905; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:45:05 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 17:45:05 EST In-Reply-To: <9603051841.AA12513@ivan.gallium.com>; from "Michael F. Sargent" at Mar 05, 96 1:41 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Bruce. Engine Analyzer works ~ from the basic configuration of an engine (bore, stroke, valve size, nubmer of ~ valves, CR, intake runner flow coefficient, carb or TB flow rating, etc.) ~ and computes the VE. From the VE (and other parameters) it calculates torque ~ and then using RPM calculates HP. ~ ~ It's fairly flexable in that it allows you to change things like intake and ~ exhaust runner lengths to see the effects that tuning will have. The people ~ who wrote Engine Analyzer claim it to be within +/- 15% of real world (i.e., ~ dyno) results. ~ ~ Mike ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | ~ | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ ~ I believe in the cost/performance ratio method of rating codes, with the ratio being a constant. Unless Engine Analyzer is a true airflow solver (with user-defined mesh points, etc) and the user enters info like intake runner cross-section, inertial supercharge index, etc, it is dealing with approximations to the real modelled system. What are these approximations? Where did these approximations come from and are they generic enough for any system modelled? Does the writers of Engine Analyzer provide the complete numerical algorithm? Do they promise the +/- 15% correlation with the real world with any engine? A true airflow simulation would take many, many minutes to execute on a generic '386 PC (or hours). From this fact alone I conclude that Engine Analyzer is empirical in operation. If it works for a particular setup, then everything is fine. If someone held a gun to my head threatening to pull the trigger if Engine Analyzer did not match their particular hunk, then there is a good chance I'll end up like Kurt Cobain. But for an $80.00 program, it out-performs something costing say $50.00. (and since my WWW page calculations are free, they are totally untrustworthy!). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 5 23:03:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA25866; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:54:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA25861; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:54:23 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA10677 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:54:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p37.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p37.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.53]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16701 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:54:12 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603052254.IAA16701@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:55:53 +1000 To: DIY_EFI From: Michael Fawke Subject: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of analogue is _very_ limited.... On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian for another coil :) Thanks in advance. PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 01:02:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA26160; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:45:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA26153; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:44:55 -0500 Received: from axonet.com.au ([203.63.6.253]) by yarrina.connect.com.au with SMTP id LAA07319 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:44:50 +1100 Received: by axonet.com.au with NT SMTP Gateway ver 31 id <313CEE0F@axonet.com.au>; Wed, 06 Mar 96 11:44:47 S From: Andrew Dalgleish To: "'diy_efi'" Subject: inductive vs optical Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 11:43:00 S Message-ID: <313CEE0F@axonet.com.au> Encoding: 112 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wednesday, 6 March 1996 9:55, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: [snip] > > PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ > dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. > At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think > would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! > > Michael Fawke > fawkacs@ozemail.com.au > > Make sure you're not confusing hardware probems with system design. Sensor problems give you the same problems regardless of sensor type (inductive, optical, ESP). If a sensor isn't working, you don't know what's happening. Period. Assuming your sensors are ok, the basic idea is to get the most information from the minimum number of sensors (hence $$$) Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based detection. (Any other's I've missed?) Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection is out. Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked loop, either analog or digital. Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. Multiple sensors (inductive or optical) remove the need for any loop filter design. You do have to allow for sensor failure, and yes, you now have more sensors which could fail. If you use one sensor for angle and one for index, the detection is fairly simple. Assuming 1 per (cam) degree, 1 for index, if I get more than 720 degrees without an index, or less than 720 on the next index there is a problem. If you use two sensors for angle (eg quadrature encoding), you can test for either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine rocks back :-) As others have pointed out if you encode your cylinder number in binary you are asking for trouble, Gray coding is far less error-prone. I think it is easier to use a state machine which is advanced once per cylinder. This can come from an extra sensor, or (IMHO preferably) from the angle divided down. Again, check the cylinder count is correct every time you receive an index pulse. Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical sensor. The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, although the supporting analogue circuitry may be. Unfortunately, it's not easy to design an inductive pickup which will work from cranking speed through to red-line. An A14 goes from 200 to 10,000 rpm. (The push-rods start to flex at around 11,000 rpm.) If you add missing/short/long pulses to the design requirements, it gets harder. I can buy off-the-shelf optical sensors which provide a TTL signal I can plug into a computer. I can print my own encoding wheel and reduce it photographically. (The laser in a printer may be accurate to X DPI, but check the size of your toner granules.) Development time is the single most expensive part of any design. Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for quadrature angle), a printed wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, and I'm done. Incidentally at my last place of employment we used a proximity sensor which was placed *inside* the magnetic field of a 500MW power station generator to measure the stator to rotor gap for pole shift, thermal movement, etc. The sensor cost around US$5,000. Anyone want to buy one of these for their car? Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 04:13:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA26974; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:05:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.one.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA26969; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:05:48 -0500 Received: from port-1-1.access.one.net (port-1-1.access.one.net [206.112.193.11]) by mail.one.net (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA10514 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:03:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199603060403.XAA10514@mail.one.net> X-Sender: dapiper@mail.one.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 00:03:40 -0500 To: diy_efi From: dapiper@one.net (David Piper) Subject: Re: Optical Dist sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu r"John DeArmond fanclub #13 Is anyone interested in the whereabouts of big John? Do the words no computers, american dream, Cleveland, TN, pork BarBQ and Chitlin' mean anything? TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 04:13:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA26958; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:57:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from u1.pccsgate.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA26953; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:57:09 -0500 Received: from mfield@mail.calypso.com (3tsp13.calypso.com [199.172.120.186]) by u1.pccsgate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA24907 for < diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:00:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199603060400.UAA24907@u1.pccsgate.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 21:15:12 EST From: mfield@calypso.com (Mark Field) To: diy_efi X-Mailer: PMMail v1.1 UNREGISTERED SHAREWARE Subject: Re: Turbo Lag Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:35:20 -0800 you wrote: >At 07:40 PM 3/3/96, you wrote: >>Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it >>appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a >>tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of >>compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to >>produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got >>your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it >>straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical >>losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? >> >> Brian Warburton >> >>> >>>>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >>>frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >>>ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >>>During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >>>needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >>>parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >>>the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >>>really work. >>>> >>> GMD >> >> >I think you'll find that an air motor used to spin up a centrifugal >compressor would require air at substantial pressure (i.e. >100 psi). A >centrifugal turbine wouldn't have a prayer of delivering air at that >pressure. You'd need the equivilent of an electric transfomer to convert >low-pressure/high-volume air to the high-pressure/low-volume air required by >the air motor.....or else compress the air directly using a (gasp!) >belt-driven vane or piston compressor. The beauty of the turbocharger is >that both the input and output sections are of similar "impedance" and no >transformation is required. > > > Bill > > > Just my thought's on the subject of turbo lag. First let me say that my car has a turbo ( Garret/ Air-Research E-5A ?). My car is a '86 Mustang SVO with the 2.3 liter engine. From what I've read, and the people I've talked to, the snail (exhaust housing) is the biggest culpret for turbo lag. A small inlet increases the exhaust velocity allowing a faster spool time. The down side of this is an increase in back pressure as the engine RPM increases. A large inlet on the turbine side keeps the exhaust gas velocity low, but allows the engine to breath better at top end. A vicious circle it is. I've also seen posts about the variable vane exhaust housing that was available several years ago. From what I've read, and talking to some of my racing buddies, these didn't pan out as the vanes either warped from the extreme heat or failed to operate once the carbon deposits started to develope. A good idea, but not enough demand to warrant working out the bugs. Here's my thoughts on how to reduce turbo lag. Put the butterfly valve on the suction side of the compressor. If's there is little to no air in the compressor( my car pulls 23 inches of vacuum at idle ), it would take longer to stall the turbine. The down side to this, is the fact that the intake track has to be filled and repressured before boost can take place. But, with the turbine allready spinning from the lack of backpressure in the inlet housing, you would think that the turbo would spool up significantly faster than having to pedal uphill against a manifold full of air. I plan on trying this sometime in the near future when I can afford a new set of injectors. Mine currently have a severe case of the cracks from old age, and $600.00 doesn't come cheap. Anyhow, just my thoughts. Mark Field mfield@mail.calypso.com ***** Signature Cloak Engaged to conserve bandwidth****** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 04:31:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA27031; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:20:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA27026; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:20:26 -0500 Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA07060; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:20:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:20:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199603060420.UAA07060@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Subaru EFI To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu if its a 28 pin package try reading it as a 27c128 thats the size gm uses in their newer memcal packs 128kbytes ofcode seems awfuly large for a little subaru ecm . From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 05:08:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA27146; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:00:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA27141; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:00:34 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA06425 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:40:44 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 21:47 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 21:47:39 EDT Message-Id: <9602060447.AA18840@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 21:47:36 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <9603051636.AA04153@ihgp1.ih.att.com>; from "Bohdan.L.Bodnar@att.com" at Mar 5, 96 10:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bohdan Bodnar wrote: > GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and > 4.9 volts. This is to allow for mfg. tolerances to gurantee that any given unit will be within the 0-5V input range of the a/d converter. The zero offset also provides a little headroom for noise immunity. > At atmospheric pressure, a GM or Chrysler MAP sensor designed for a self > aspirated engine will output around 4.9 volts whereas a sensor designed > for a supercharged engine will output around 2.5 volts. This makes sense if you think in terms of absolute pressure instead of vacuum. A 0 - 30 PSIA sensor would read 1/2 scale at 1 Atm. Less than this is vacuum more than this is boost. A normally aspirated engine would only require the 0 - 14.7 PSIA half of this range. > Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At > atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. > About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure > for a Ford MAP sensor. Would you kindly email this to me, if you still have it kicking around? Actually, post it to DIY_EFI, there are probably more people who would like to see it. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 05:22:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA27187; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:15:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA27182; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:15:29 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA10212 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:15:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p14.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p01.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.17]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07551 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:15:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603060515.PAA07551@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 16:16:56 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: inductive vs optical Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:43 AM 6/3/1996 S, Andrew wrote: >Assuming your sensors are ok, the basic idea is to get the most >information from the minimum number of sensors (hence $$$) >Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based >detection. (Any other's I've missed?) >Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection >is out. >Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked >loop, >either analog or digital. >Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure >under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. I agree on the filtering part, but unless you are running an analogue controller there should be no problem with accurate time control when the input from the sensor in used to generate an interrupt to a processor. I must admit that the long-pulse system would be a real pain (I know the car manufacturers use it, but I have no idea how), but a missing or extra pulse is easy from a programming point of view..... as long as the CPU speed is adequate. Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 06:56:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA27357; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:42:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.interramp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA27352; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:42:11 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle.VISIX by smtp2.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id BAA09613; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:42:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:42:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199603060642.BAA09613@smtp2.interramp.com> X-Sender: usb01259@pop3.interramp.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: sandy Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 +1000, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >analogue is _very_ limited.... > >On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? > I don't have the circuit handy (i'm on the road), but I thought that it had the sense resistor. The value on the moto data sheet is .075Ohms I think. Their is also a variable resistor from that to form a simple divider network that is used to adjust the current that the limiting starts at. The thing that I remeber from Tim's stuff is that it was the exact same circuit as the moto data sheet. >Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >for another coil :) The above mentioned setting of the variable resistor will set the maximum current that the coil is driven to. Sandy ********************************** Sandy Ganz sandyg@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ********************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 08:03:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA27485; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:54:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA27480; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 02:54:40 -0500 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA16446; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:54:38 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:54:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199603060754.XAA16446@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Turbo Lag To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu who needs air just inject nitrous oxide;maybe thats the answear electronicaly regulated injection just enough to compensate for turbo lag? From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 08:35:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA27567; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:30:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA27562; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:30:00 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id XAA06556 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:16:38 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 23:22 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 23:21:18 EDT Message-Id: <9602060621.AA18845@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: inductive vs optical To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 23:21:14 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <313CEE0F@axonet.com.au>; from "Andrew Dalgleish" at Mar 6, 96 11:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Andrew Dalgleish wrote: > Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > is out. Why? As long as your timing resolution is high enough, and you don't rely on the micro for doing the quadrature or handling a zillion interrupts, a micro should be able to handle up to 7 or 8000 RPM easily. 8000 RPM is only about 1Khz. > Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical > sensor. The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, > although the supporting analogue circuitry may be. An inductive sensor has the shortcoming of having much less resoulution. It would be extremely difficult to build an inductive pickup with a couple of hundred teeth small enough to fit in a distributor, whereas it's no problem with an optical encoder... > I can buy off-the-shelf optical sensors which provide a TTL signal I can > plug into a computer. I can print my own encoding wheel and reduce it > photographically. Development time is the single most expensive part of > any design. Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for > quadrature angle), a printed wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, > and I'm done. Check out HP (Hewlett Packard). They make an optical sensor setup that you can buy different resolution disks for, or make your own. They are the HEDS 5000, 6000, and 9000 series. They even make one with 360 cpr, and are very small in size. Coupled with an HCTL2000/2016 quadrature decoder chip, (X4 resolution, built in 12/16 bit counter w/direction, 8 bit parallel interface) you have an instant position sensing system with no programming or fabricating at all. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 08:35:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA27576; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:30:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA27570; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:30:10 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id WAA06511 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:52:29 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 22:57 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Tue, 5 Mar 96 22:50:01 EDT Message-Id: <9602060550.AA18841@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: MC3334 question To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 22:49:57 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199603052254.IAA16701@oznet02.ozemail.com.au>; from "Michael Fawke" at Mar 6, 96 9:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Michael Fawke wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of > analogue is _very_ limited.... Ya, I feel sorry for you electrically challenged individuals... (just kidding! 8-) > On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the > circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the > MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article > on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does > not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the > current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or > can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? After a little data book browsing, I see MC3334 has an overcurrent limit threshold of minimum 120 mV, typical 160 mV, maximum 190 mV. This means that at the current level you want to limit at, the voltage across the current sense resistor has to rise to around 160 mV to trip the current limiter circuit. In the data book, they show a circuit with a 0.075 ohm resistor, and a further adjustable voltage divider into pin 8 (the current limit input). This circuit is setup to limit at 5.5 A. If you multiply 5.5 by .075 ohm, you get 412 mV across the resistor Rs. This is divided further by a resistive divider circuit, comprised of RD1 and RD2. They give a formula in the data sheet for calculating RD1 and RD2 for the desired current limit. Tim Drury may not have used the current limit, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you use a coil which requires a separate ballast resistor. The different value for Rs in your circuit is 0.027 ohms, which would give a current limit of about 6 A. Your circuit possibly doesn't use the voltage divider shown in my data sheet, which is added to make the current limit adjustable. As far as finding a resistor for Rs, low value power resistors are kind of scarce. You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ 6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm .5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. > Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have > seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when > used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with > a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian > for another coil :) Any coil will work, the circuit works by limiting the maximum current into the coil (which keeps it from heating up at low RPM's), which also eliminates the need for the ballast resistor. The ballast resistor ALSO limits current at HIGH RPM's, though, which decreases ignition energy and kindof defeats the purpose... If you decide NOT to use the current limit in the MC3334, then you WOULD need the ballast resistor. To disable the current limit, tie pin 8 to ground. regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 09:23:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA27679; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:16:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uctmail2.uct.ac.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA27674; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:16:24 -0500 Received: by uctmail2.uct.ac.za (Smail3.1.29.1 #15) id m0tuFJL-0005ItC; Wed, 6 Mar 96 11:15 SAT Message-Id: Received: by uctmail2.uct.ac.za (Mort 2.15) id 386 from PHYSIO; Wed Mar 6 11:15:04 1996 From: "SANDY" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:03:11 UTC-2 Subject: Re: Fuel Maps X-Confirm-Reading-To: sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On 4 March, Sean wrote: > My main question here is: > How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their > system? > I would also be interested in the answer to that question. Has anyone used on-board dynos like the DynoLab or Schrick versions and if so, how succesful was it? Or do you run out of road before you finish one RPM/load combination? Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 10:27:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA27815; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:16:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA27810; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:16:11 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA04048 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:16:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p19.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.35]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29094 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:16:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603061016.UAA29094@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 21:17:44 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 01:42 AM 6/3/1996 -0500, Sandy wrote: >At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 +1000, you wrote: >>Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >>analogue is _very_ limited.... >> >>On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >>circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >>MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >>on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >>not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >>current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >>can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? >> >I don't have the circuit handy (i'm on the road), but I thought that it had >the sense resistor. The value on the moto data sheet is .075Ohms I think. >Their is also a variable resistor from that to form a simple divider network >that is used to adjust the current that the limiting starts at. The thing >that I remeber from Tim's stuff is that it was the exact same circuit as the >moto data sheet. > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance wire to carry the current? Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 11:46:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA27936; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:39:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA27930; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:39:26 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.127]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Wed, 6 Mar 96 21:39:22 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 21:39:22 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:55 AM 6/03/96 +1000, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >analogue is _very_ limited.... > >On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? > >Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >for another coil :) > >Thanks in advance. > >PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ >dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. >At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think >would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! > >Michael Fawke >fawkacs@ozemail.com.au > > Mike, Most Nissan and Mitsubishi vehicles with engine management systems use optical timing disks. (Have a look in a VL Commodore distributor). As far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. regards, Mark Boxsell. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 13:18:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA28277; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:08:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28272; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:08:46 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA29157 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:05:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199603061305.AA29157@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:05:58 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:05:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:07:54 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 888 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "Unless Engine Analyzer is a true airflow solver (with user-defined mesh points, etc) and the user enters info like intake runner cross-section, inertial supercharge index, etc, it is dealing with approximations" I use a true airflow solver on the job. It's called MANDY, which stands for MANifold DYnamics, and is mentioned in papers submitted to various engineering societies and journals(most recently in SAE automotive Engineering last month).It's proprietary, but very accurate. Our mesh isn't user-defined, it's automatically generated. We do input runner lengths and cross-sectional areas(among other things), but there is no 'interial supercharge index', a term we've never heard of. If you mean 'inertial charging', true solvers will calculate it; it's an output, not an input. In spite of it's accuracy, we'll be the first to admit that it's still an approximation. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 13:50:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA28423; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:43:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gw2.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28418; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:43:07 -0500 Received: from ihgp1.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA13092; Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:40:46 EST Received: by ihgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.2.1 sol2) id AA29576; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:43:30 -0600 From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar@att.com Received: by ihgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.2.1 sol2) id AA29539; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:43:26 -0600 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:43:26 -0600 Message-Id: <9603061343.AA29539@ihgp1.ih.att.com> Original-From: bohdan@ihgp.ih.att.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Bohdan Bodnar wrote: > >> GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and >> 4.9 volts. > >This is to allow for mfg. tolerances to gurantee that any given unit will >be within the 0-5V input range of the a/d converter. The zero offset also >provides a little headroom for noise immunity. Actually, the voltage ranges are to allow the computer to test to see whether (1) the output's shorted to ground or (2) whether the output's open (i.e., voltage higher than about 4.9 volts). Noise immunity is achieved by low-pass filtering the signal. >> Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At >> atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. >> About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure >> for a Ford MAP sensor. > >Would you kindly email this to me, if you still have it kicking around? >Actually, post it to DIY_EFI, there are probably more people who would like >to see it. > >regards >dn I don't have it readily available. Time permitting, I'll dig it up (it's from some Ford training material) and post it early next week. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 14:39:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA28616; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:30:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA28611; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:30:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199603061430.JAA28611@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7147; Wed, 06 Mar 96 09:25:04 EST Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin BCLEMEN@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9822; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:25:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 08:38:30 EST From: Byron Clemens Subject: VE To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu According to the designer of Engine Analyzer the VE that is output from their program is calculated from many of the various inputs to the program and some estimates. If someone has what they feel is accurate real world data(VE) for a particular engine and they wish to send me the engine data required by EA I will run it through EAv2.5 and post the comparative VE numbers. BYRON CLEMENS BITNET: BCLEMEN@WAYNEST1.BITNET HUMAN RESOURCES APP SPEC I INTERNET: BCLEMEN@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU 100 ANTOINETTE, ASB #1, RM 156.1 PHONE: (313) 577-2059 Detroit, MI 48202 FAX: (313) 577-8767 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 14:53:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA28671; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:46:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA28666; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:26 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA04432 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:24 -0500 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA14632 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:24 -0500 Received: from snickers.mm.mtu.edu (snickers.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.133]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id JAA08649 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:23 -0500 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by snickers.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.10/MTU-1.2) id JAA25229 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199603061446.JAA25229@snickers.mm.mtu.edu> Subject: Re: inductive vs optical To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:21 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <313CEE0F@axonet.com.au> from "Andrew Dalgleish" at Mar 6, 96 11:43:00 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3153 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based > detection. (Any other's I've missed?) Phase. But really all three are from the same general concepts. > Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > is out. Incorrect. You need an adaptive system is all (measures changes in the AVERAGE rate or average pulse length, not absolute sensing). The amount of extra stuff to implement this is minimal (564 or a '4040 would probably be overkill). > Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked > loop, either analog or digital. > > Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure > under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. Excuse me? You run a single active filter loop giving you a second order response (practically infinite shaping possibilities for this case). Takes an op amp and a pair of resistors and capacitors. And it's not even text book..the PLL documentation I have is literally a case of "plug in the numbers" design. For those who want all digital, one uses a lag/lead type phase detector with a down/up input onto the register which stores the modulus on a count to N (or divide by N) register. > Multiple sensors (inductive or optical) remove the need for any loop > filter > design. You do have to allow for sensor failure, and yes, you now have > more sensors which could fail. Sensor sets cost about $3. PLL's cost about $2-$5 (depends on whether or not it's all digital). Pretty much a flip of the coin. > If you use two sensors for angle (eg quadrature encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine > rocks back :-) Another advantage of quadrature sensors is you are not entirely SOL if one goes out because it just cuts your resolution in half and negates the possibility of reverse direction sensing. > Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical > sensor. > The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, > although the > supporting analogue circuitry may be. Inductive sensors require more signal conditioning and they should be fed by alternating current to prevent problems in residual fields. > Development time is the single most expensive part of any design. > Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for quadrature angle), a > printed > wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, and I'm done. Not in the case of DIY because more development time is GOOD. Remember that DIY's do not account for time so much as the thrill of designing and getting it working. It's not a "get it out the door" problem. I may get flamed with disagreement but "DIY" pretty much implies hobbyist. BTW..how in the world do you get hold of cheap FPGA/EPLD type programmers and the associated compilers? Unless it's a PAL or older GAL's, it seems that the manufacturers want on the order of $0.5-10K for the tools. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 15:34:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA28831; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:26:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA28826; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:26:00 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA091835947; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:25:48 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA250945946; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:25:46 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:25:11 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: L-jetronic To: james@brc.ubc.ca, DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi James There are several books that give details about the Bosch systems. I suggest you get the one by Charles 0. Probst, Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management. Also find someone who has a copy of the British Car magazine, June & August '95.It talks a little about the minimum equipment needed. I suggest as minimum a fuel pressure gauge to about 60psi for port injection with electric injectors, a voltmeter, and a CO meter. I still don't seem to be on the DIY_EFI distribution, can you tell me if there have been any responses to my original request for information on a Bosch vacuum switch? Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james@brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/5/96 6:19 PM Thanks Werner and welcome to the list !! I usually reply direct instead of to the list (saves time sifting throught the list looking for people who have replied to you). Wow, I'm impressed with your conversion, how did you know it would work??? Similar engine size? I've got the Jeff Hartman book, I agree it's fantastic. I'd be really interested in hearing the story behind this job, your troubles and triumphs etc. I'd like to do something like this some day so I'm trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What equipment do you have for EFI that you can't live without?? I'm looking at fuel pressure guages and am having trouble deciding which one to get. Any advice??? One more thing, can you get me the ISBN number for the Bosch FI book?? Is this the one by Adler ?? Sounds like a good read. thanks again james From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 15:50:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA29058; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:43:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29048; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:43:22 -0500 Received: from port30.fishnet.net (port30.fishnet.net [205.216.133.230]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA17906 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:52 GMT Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:52 GMT Message-Id: <199603060742.HAA17906@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Fuel Maps Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> My main question here is: >> How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their >> system? get the best O2 or other air fuel meter you can afford or borrow (an EGT-exhaust gas temp meter is also handy) then, after you get some baseline programming done in the driveway, go drive around. Data logging will make things much easier, esp when speeds climb and or traffic is a problem. the faster the car the harder it is to top end due to road and traffic conditions. as for the ign, I try to start with a curve similar to factory(if I have it) and then tweek it with the aid of the EGT and knock sensor Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 15:50:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA29053; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:43:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29046; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:43:20 -0500 Received: from port30.fishnet.net (port30.fishnet.net [205.216.133.230]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA17902 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:50 GMT Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:50 GMT Message-Id: <199603060742.HAA17902@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu could it be, Tim used circuit resistances instead of an actual resistor? I did some coil testing 2 weeks ago in which I scoped the voltage drop across a clip lead leading to the driver ground. > You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the >required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ >6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm >.5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. If you have good dwell control, the only time you'll approach these dissipation figures is at very high rpm when the duty cycle is highest. one last thing. does anyone know where to get the MC3334 (I could use 10-12) Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 16:25:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA29563; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:16:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA29558; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:15:56 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <189858-1>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:15:36 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12684; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:40:58 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma012681; Wed Mar 6 10:40:36 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16367; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:36:17 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA13771; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:49:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:49:10 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603061549.AA13771@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Turbo Lag Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Here's my thoughts on how to reduce turbo lag. Put the butterfly > valve on the suction side of the compressor. If's there is little to I had a turbo Capri 2.3 with a carb upstream from the turbo. Lag was still a problem. Of course with that car, everything was a problem. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 16:39:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA29691; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:30:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA29686; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:30:24 -0500 Received: by cicerone.uunet.ca via suspension id <188804-1>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:29:06 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <188835-1>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:08:17 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12629; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:33:58 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma012627; Wed Mar 6 10:33:45 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16247; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:29:26 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA13755; Wed, 6 Mar 96 10:42:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:42:12 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603061542.AA13755@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > A true airflow simulation would take many, many minutes to execute on a > generic '386 PC (or hours). From this fact alone I conclude that Engine > Analyzer is empirical in operation. On my old 486-66 it took perhaps 10 seconds to calculate, and that's only 10 points. You specify the start RPM, and the RPM step, and it calculates for those points until it has done 10 points. It's not my favourite way to specify this sort of thing, but in the end it solves the problems. As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home tonight. :-) I'll make a run and post the output here so people can see what EA outputs. It won't be until Friday, because I'm out of town tommorow. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 18:20:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA00594; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:12:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00589; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:12:37 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28929 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:11:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603061811.LAA28929@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 11:11:21 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. The 28pin pkg has the following pinout ... 1 Vpp 2 n/c 3 *OE 4 *CE 5 n/c 6 AD0 7 AD8 8 AD1 9 AD9 10 AD2 11 AD10 12 AD3 13 AD11 14 GND 15 AD4 16 AD12 17 AD5 18 AD13 19 AD6 20 AD14 21 AD7 22 AD15 23 A16 24 n/c 25 *ALE 26 *BHE 27 *PGM 28 Vcc BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 18:21:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA00602; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:13:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-e2a-service.gnn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00597; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:13:06 -0500 Received: from www-37-64.gnn.com. (www-37-64.gnn.com [205.188.37.64]) by mail-e2a-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04235 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:12:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603061812.NAA04235@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com> X-Mailer: GNNmessenger 1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 10:04:07 From: Jeff Hansen To: diy_efi Subject: Re: inductive vs optical Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, this could be useful. I use encoders on just about every servo motor in every product that I have designed at work. I would not expect the 1000 line and 2500 line encoders that I use, to live very long under my hood. A 360 line encoder with an index pulse would be nice, but the only real improvement you will probably see would be simpler software. Don't you guys like software? [snip] > This brings up an interesting point... Hewlett Packard makes a chip > specifically for reading optical encoders, which may work great with this > type of system. Assuming you can get the 50% duty cycle waveforms as > mentioned above, (you could have some sort of sensitivity adjustment on > the sensors so it picks up the tooth halfway up and down each ramp) the > chip takes care of the *** QUADRATURE *** decoding and has a built in 16 bit counter [snip] > All you really need is the 2 *** QUADRATURE *** tracks, plus a single "index" marker > which generates a pulse once per revolution. In this manner, you have a sync > pulse which tells you when you have gone one full turn, and simply reference > everything to the sync pulse... [snip] > If you use two sensors for angle (eg *** QUADRATURE *** encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine rocks > back :-) Andrew , I know you understand. [snip] > Why? As long as your timing resolution is high enough, and you don't rely > on the micro for doing the *** QUADRATURE *** or handling a zillion interrupts, > a micro should be able to handle up to 7 or 8000 RPM easily. 8000 RPM is > only about 1Khz. Later - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Hansen Anaheim, California, USA JHansen777@gnn.com http://members.gnn.com/JHansen777/car/index.htm Seven pounds of boost is a 'Good-Thing' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 18:52:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA00945; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:42:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00940; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:42:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199603061842.NAA00940@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA027157733; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:42:13 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 13:42:13 EST In-Reply-To: <9603061542.AA13755@ivan.gallium.com>; from "Michael F. Sargent" at Mar 06, 96 10:42 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home ~ tonight. :-) ~ Darn - I was hoping that EA's results was garbage, so I would NOT have to go back home to Courtney. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 20:15:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA01607; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:00:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01597; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:00:50 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 06 Mar 96 14:59:48 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04522; Wed, 6 Mar 96 15:00:52 EST Message-Id: <9603062000.AA04522@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:25:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: Land Shark > It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. > BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( But thanks for the information, but - Now you REALLY made my day... Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra EPROMs for testing. --- David Parrish Bummed out. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 22:02:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA02314; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:36:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA02309; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:36:25 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.19] (dialup-1-19.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.19]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA09215 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:36:02 GMT Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:36:02 GMT Message-Id: <199603062136.VAA09215@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: inductive vs optical Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Check out HP (Hewlett Packard). They make an optical sensor setup that you > can buy different resolution disks for, or make your own. They are the HEDS > 5000, 6000, and 9000 series. They even make one with 360 cpr, and are very > small in size. Coupled with an HCTL2000/2016 quadrature decoder chip, > (X4 resolution, built in 12/16 bit counter w/direction, 8 bit parallel > interface) you have an instant position sensing system with no programming > or fabricating at all. Do you have information on the HED 1000? or know were I can get it. I recently aquired one for free and If I can use it that would save me $3.00.. Thanks.. Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 22:39:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA02820; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:22:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA02815; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:22:03 -0500 Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com ([204.228.138.67]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16881; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:21:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603062221.PAA16881@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:21:48 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Cc: dmp@bmesun1.MCG.EDU Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 03:25 PM 3/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer >and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I >were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra >EPROMs for testing. How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into a multiplexed arrangement ... No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 6 23:39:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA03114; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:18:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA03109; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:18:27 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA20199 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:17:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p12.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p12.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.28]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07742 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:17:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603062317.JAA07742@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:19:13 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >>seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >>used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >>a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >>for another coil :) >> >As >far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the >damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell. > Because I have never had much luck in getting a sales person to allow me to open a sealed pack...... Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 01:33:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA03735; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 01:19:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA03730; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:19:47 -0500 Received: from ns.magicnet.net (pm5-18.magicnet.net [206.104.207.147]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA28244 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:19:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199603070119.UAA28244@magicnet.magicnet.net> X-Sender: pjwales@mailhost.magicnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:19:52 -0500 To: diy_efi From: pjwales@magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I just might be able to help out here. I have a gadget which can read 87256 devices which are latched 256 eproms, I'll check and see if it can read 1024 devices. I also have a source of 87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. It'll be Friday before I can get to it though so be patient Peter Wales pjwales@magicnet.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 02:47:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA03926; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:31:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA03921; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:31:08 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id TAA07585 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:10:59 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Wed, 6 Mar 96 19:17 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Wed, 6 Mar 96 19:19:14 EDT Message-Id: <9602070219.AA18883@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: inductive vs optical To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 19:19:10 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199603061812.NAA04235@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com>; from "Jeff Hansen" at Mar 6, 96 10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jeff Hansen writes > I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature > keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the > direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in > this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x > multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, > this could be useful. You're right, direction is not an issue. But it does make sense to use quadrature for the error checking and x4 aspects, plus quadrature encoders are readily available. > Don't you guys like software? Solder is my favorite programming language :) regards dn PS - please set your editor to a more manageable line length - it's hard to read your messages. tnx -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 03:16:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA04012; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 03:00:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA04007; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:00:01 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <10865>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:59:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:59:50 -0500 From: CHAN WEN YEN X-Sender: chanwe@indy1.ecf To: diy_efi cc: LEVNER DANIEL Subject: free data books Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu AMD will courier free data books to anyone who calls their APPLICATIONS HOTLINE. AMD's EPROM products data book (#17061B) may be of general interest. AMD also publishes , among other things, a cross reference guide. The number to call is (800) 222-9323 CANADA/USA, 0590-8621 FRANCE, 0130-813875 GERMANY. Wenyen Chan chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 05:12:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA04289; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:59:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA04284; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:59:34 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA07767 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:59:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:59:31 -0500 Message-ID: <960306235930_162302030@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 05:14:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA04341; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:07:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04336; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:07:37 -0500 Received: from [160.94.26.8] (dialup-12-a-8.gw.umn.edu [160.94.26.8]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id FAA29131 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:07:11 GMT Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:07:11 GMT Message-Id: <199603070507.FAA29131@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Looks like a metal case TO-5 transistor with 8 leads and a lens on the end? > > If so, it's basically a reflective sensor with LED and photodetector on the > same die. I'ts focussed to a spot size of .190mm, 4.27mm in front of the > case. It has a photodiode with a single transistor preamp built in. > Shouldn't be too hard to interface to, but making the wheel is going to be > a bear. Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? It's not a big deal because I'm using it on a digital counter circuit so all it has to do is generate a positive or negative going edge >2ns in diration. Opps by the way (I've never used these before) the reflection is the positive voltage right? Thanks... Cool beans! Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 05:16:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA04372; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:09:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04367; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:09:31 -0500 Received: from [160.94.26.8] (dialup-12-a-8.gw.umn.edu [160.94.26.8]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id FAA29186 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:09:07 GMT Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:09:07 GMT Message-Id: <199603070509.FAA29186@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Equations.. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I need help with equations for a MAP system. I have this general equation.. PV=nRTe P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters N = moles of atmosphere in Moles R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters T = Absolute temp ¡K of intake air [temp sensors job] Could you help me nail down the real units on these things? I'm a second year chemistry student, and I know this simple Gas law but I don't know the units in this Application!!! e = Volumetric Efficiency Unitless Could someone provide a formula to just get a cheap estimate of this term. I can't solve for it since I have no empirical data, also no staight substitutions work either: as the e terms will cancel. I have a briggs and stratton engine, and those bastards won't give me volumetric efficiency information at all. They said that it wasn't even availible. I said bullshit if the didn't know Ve they wouldn't know other general things like fuel consumption and torque. I even said I didn't care if the values weren't worth shit. Please help me, I'm a High school hobbiest. I have no access to high tech equipment like dyno's and bench equipment. My life sucks, Thanks for your concern, Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 05:17:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA04379; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:10:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04374; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:26 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10666 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:19 -0500 Message-ID: <960307001018_440151794@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them **upo** as a development module. > > ^^^ Peter, Don't you have a spell checker down there!!!! See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 05:28:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA04472; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:18:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eagle.natinst.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04465; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:18:45 -0500 Received: (from klopfer@localhost) by eagle.natinst.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA01235 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:18:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:18:39 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Klopfer Message-Id: <199603070518.XAA01235@eagle.natinst.com> To: diy_efi Subject: fpga compilers Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I've seen free versions of MACH and Lattice isp series FPGA compilers, there's also some other free compilers I saw on a FPGA www site but none seemed to be for the big FPGAs. I don't know how the size of these FPGAs compares with big stuff from Altera or Xilinx. Also I saw an ad for Cypress VHDL compiler for $99. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 10:37:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA05019; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:17:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA05014; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:17:40 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA17211 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:17:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p21.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p21.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.37]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA21752 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:17:27 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603071017.UAA21752@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 21:19:06 +1000 To: DIY_EFI From: Michael Fawke Subject: Has anyone built their own EFI system yet? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone actually got a working EFI system running yet? By that I mean a self-designed, computer based unit which will run an engine. >From reading the mail so far (only subscribed last week), it sounds like the electronics engineers are trying to develop discrete logic based systems, while the computing types are stuck on sensor design. How about everyone co-operating so we can all benefit? Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 11:33:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA05099; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:17:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA05094; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 06:17:17 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.162]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Thu, 7 Mar 96 21:17:13 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 21:17:13 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: inductive vs optical Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:43 AM 6/03/96 S, you wrote: >Sensor problems give you the same problems regardless of sensor type >(inductive, optical, ESP). >If a sensor isn't working, you don't know what's happening. Period. Inductive pickups are a bitch to work with. There is "nothing to go wrong" but they are prone to RFI big time. (Although the LM1815 seems to work quite well) > >Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > >is out. I would have to severely disagree big time with this comment. How the hell do you think 90% of the factory systems work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical >sensor. A coil of wire is pretty reliable ! >The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, >although the >supporting analogue circuitry may be. True. > >Unfortunately, it's not easy to design an inductive pickup which will >work from >cranking speed through to red-line. Why ? Everyone (OEM's) does it. >Regards, >Andrew Dalgleish >Axon Research, Pty Ltd >6 Wallace Ave, >Toorak, VIC >3142 >AUSTRALIA >Tel +61-3-9826-5538 >Fax +61-3-9824-0083 > Sorry Andrew but when I see stuff that is a bit strange I have to point it out. regards, Mark Boxsell. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 13:29:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA06366; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:13:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA06361; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:13:21 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 07 Mar 96 08:12:23 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05101; Thu, 7 Mar 96 08:13:28 EST Message-Id: <9603071313.AA05101@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:38:43 +0000 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner > to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... > > NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. > > Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little > daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into > a multiplexed arrangement ... > > No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) Yeah, yeah. But with working full time, driving two hours a day, building an airplane, rewiring an engine and designing an engine mount, following the '332 project and some competitive shooting on weekends, who has time to hassle with an odd ball EPROM? --- David Parrish Oh, did I mention playing entirely too much Doom? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 14:36:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA06830; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:21:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06825; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:21:37 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA14695 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:18:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071418.AA14695@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:18:40 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:18:40 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Equations.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 96 05:09:07 GMT." <199603070509.FAA29186@freenet.msp.mn.us> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 09:21:05 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I need help with equations for a MAP system. I have this > general equation. > > PV=nRTe > P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA > V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters > N = moles of atmosphere in Moles > R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters > T = Absolute temp !K of intake air [temp sensors job] > > Could you help me nail down the real units on these > things? I'm a second year chemistry student, and I know this > simple Gas law but I don't know the units in this Application!!! Here's one set of units that'll work: P in pascals V in meters^3 n in moles R = 8.3143 joules/(mole*deg Kelvin) T in deg Kelvin > > e = Volumetric Efficiency Unitless > > Could someone provide a formula to just get > a cheap estimate of this term. I can't solve for it since > I have no empirical data, also no staight substitutions work > either: as the e terms will cancel. Yes, e is unitless. A very cheap formula is e(engine speed, manifold pressure) = 0.85. This is a great simplification of course, but is useful in getting started. [snip] Good luck, Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 14:58:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA06889; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06884; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:42:06 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA16846 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:41:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071441.AA16846@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:41:08 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:41:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:18:02 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Equations.. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1744 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jim Staff, try this instead: PV=mRT, where P=pressure in pascals(not kPa) V=volume in m^3(cubic meters, not liters) m=mass of air in the volume, kg R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air T=absolute temperature in K This one does away with moles. I'll make a bold assumption that you know what a derivative is(if not, we'll explain). Take the derivative of each side of that equation with respect to time and you get: P(dV/dt)=(dm/dt)RT, where t=time, seconds dV/dt=volume flow rate in m^3/s. A more common unit is CFM, but you can perform the conversion dm/dt=mass flow rate in kg/s. A more common unit is lbs/hr, but... Rearrange to solve for dm/dt, which is what you are really after: dm/dt=P(dV/dt)/(R*T) Now, R is constant, you can measure P with a MAP, T with an air charge temperature(ACT) sensor. Throw in Volumetric Efficiency(called eta, but I can't type in greek, so I'll call it N which looks similar) as a correction factor for dV/dt: dm/dt=P(N*dV/dt)/(R*T) Now dV/dt becomes a constant(it's your engine or cylinder displacement), and you need to predict N(that's you asked in the first place, huh?). That's tough to predict without any measuring equipment at all. You could assume a relatively safe, constant number like 70%, but without measuring SOMETHING, you'll never know how close that is or how it changes with rpm at wide open throttle(WOT). What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Life doesn't suck after all! From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 15:56:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA07002; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:38:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06997; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:38:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071538.KAA06997@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA121133093; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:38:13 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Equations.. To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:38:13 EST In-Reply-To: <199603071441.AA16846@internet-mail2.ford.com>; from "R)" at Mar 07, 96 9:18 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ ~ Jim Staff, try this instead: ~ ~ PV=mRT, where ~ ~ P=pressure in pascals(not kPa) ~ V=volume in m^3(cubic meters, not liters) ~ m=mass of air in the volume, kg ~ R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air ~ T=absolute temperature in K ~ ~ This one does away with moles. I'll make a bold assumption that you ~ know what a derivative is(if not, we'll explain). Take the derivative ~ of each side of that equation with respect to time and you get: ~ ~ P(dV/dt)=(dm/dt)RT, where ~ ~ t=time, seconds ~ dV/dt=volume flow rate in m^3/s. A more common unit is CFM, but you ~ can perform the conversion ~ dm/dt=mass flow rate in kg/s. A more common unit is lbs/hr, but... ~ ~ Rearrange to solve for dm/dt, which is what you are really after: ~ ~ dm/dt=P(dV/dt)/(R*T) ~ ~ Now, R is constant, you can measure P with a MAP, T with an air charge ~ temperature(ACT) sensor. ~ ~ Throw in Volumetric Efficiency(called eta, but I can't type in greek, ~ so I'll call it N which looks similar) as a correction factor for ~ dV/dt: ~ ~ dm/dt=P(N*dV/dt)/(R*T) ~ ~ Now dV/dt becomes a constant(it's your engine or cylinder ~ displacement), and you need to predict N(that's you asked in the first ~ place, huh?). That's tough to predict without any measuring equipment ~ at all. You could assume a relatively safe, constant number like 70%, ~ but without measuring SOMETHING, you'll never know how close that is ~ or how it changes with rpm at wide open throttle(WOT). ~ ~ What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone ~ can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT ~ volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust ~ gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. ~ ~ Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Life ~ doesn't suck after all! ~ This explanation is EXCELLENT!!!! This should go on the DIY_EFY WWW page. Good work, Mr. R) (whoever you are.....). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 16:18:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA07101; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:00:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07096; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:00:23 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA09371 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:57:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071557.AA09371@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:57:14 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:57:14 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Equations.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Mar 96 09:18:02 +0500." <199603071441.AA16846@internet-mail2.ford.com> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 10:59:43 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > PV=mRT, where I prefer that form too. Engineers seem to use m (mass), chemists seem to use n (moles). Either works as long as you keep track of the universal gas constant units. The notation I've seen includes a bar over the R for the molar version. _ R = R/M where M is a gases molecular mass (about 29 for air) > R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air There may be a factor of 1000 problem here. Someone please check the following math! _ R = 8.3 J/(mole*K) _ R = R/M = { 8.3 J/(mole*K) } / { 29 g/mole } = 0.287 J/(g*K) = 0.287 kJ/(kg*K) > Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Yes, me too. Keep at it. Anthony Tsakiris Notation: P = pressure V = cylinder volume R = gas constant for a specific gas _ R = universal gas constant T = absolute temperature M = molecular mass --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 16:18:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA07133; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:09:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07128; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:09:51 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis0-p6.everett.net [205.134.193.70]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA03168 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:09:46 -0800 Message-ID: <313F09B5.41B1@everett.net> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:07:17 -0800 From: Johnny Organization: Johnny Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX References: <9603071313.AA05101@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu David M Parrish wrote: > > > How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner > > to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... > > > > NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. > > > > Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little > > daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into > > a multiplexed arrangement ... > > > > No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) > > Yeah, yeah. But with working full time, driving two hours a day, > building an airplane, rewiring an engine and designing an engine > mount, following the '332 project and some competitive shooting on > weekends, who has time to hassle with an odd ball EPROM? > David, you could eliminate all but the "building an airplane" from the above list and still not have enough time to screw around with an oddball EPROM. Now you can see why I went with the aftermarket system to get the prototype engine ready to fly, and then after that trying to do my own EFI for it. BTW, where are you in the building process now? -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 16:43:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA07522; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:27:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07517; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:27:53 -0500 Received: from rclsgi48.eng.ohio-state.edu (rclsgi48.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.220.48]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21631 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:27:53 -0500 (EST) From: orlin steven jared Received: (from orlin-s@localhost) by rclsgi48.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA13934 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:27:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603071627.LAA13934@rclsgi48.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: Equations.. To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:27:51 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199603070509.FAA29186@freenet.msp.mn.us> from "Jim Staff" at Mar 7, 96 05:09:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > PV=nRTe > P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA > V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters > N = moles of atmosphere in Moles > R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters > T = Absolute temp ¡K of intake air [temp sensors job] > > Could you help me nail down the real units on these things? I'm a > second year chemistry student, and I know this simple Gas law but I don't know > the units in this Application!!! You're a second year chemistry student and you don't have a chem book with these units written inside the front cover ? %-) Pressure has dimensions: force/length squared Volume has dimensions: length cubed n has no dimensions (primary dimensions anyways) the units are moles T has secondary dimension, temperature (sometimes a primary dimension). Knowing the above, you can rearrange the equation and get the dimensions and therefor, units, of the universal gas constant (which I always forget myself). I have never seen the ideal gas law used in conjunction with volumetric efficiency like you state above, however. That doesn't mean that it isn't -I just haven't seen it. Maybe someone else can elaborate. There are many ways to calculate volumetric efficiency. I can bring in some formulas later. But typical values for spark ignition engines run about .5-1 (1 being an all out race engine). Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 17:17:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA07745; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:57:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07740; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:57:24 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA23984 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:54:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071654.AA23984@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:54:32 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:54:32 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Volumetric efficiency (Re: Equations..) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 11:57:00 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu With regard to determining volumetric efficiency ... You need some form of air flow meter to measure the actual amount of air that is inducted by the engine. (This actual measurement is then compared to the displacement of the engine.) The air flow meter doesn't have to be fancy or even electronic. Jim (Staff), the simplest approach I can think of is to use a standard orifice or a laminar flow meter. You can use a simple water manometer to measure the pressure drop across these devices (just make sure that all the air that goes into your engine goes through the device too - buy some duct tape). To convert from pressure drop to mass flow rate, you'll need to know the flow coefficient for the standard orifice or a calibration curve for the laminar flow meter. Ask your physics teacher if your school has such equipment. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 17:51:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA07797; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:26:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07792; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:26:36 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA01256 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:25:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071725.AA01256@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:25:02 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:25:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:24:00 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Equations.. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 613 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > There may be a factor of 1000 problem here. Someone please > check the following math! > _ > R = 8.3 J/(mole*K) > _ > R = R/M = { 8.3 J/(mole*K) } / { 29 g/mole } = 0.287 J/(g*K) > = 0.287 kJ/(kg*K) Your math is correct, but I posted the wrong units in the formula. R is actually in units of J/(kg*K), not kJ/(kg*K) as I first posted. Substitue "R=287 J/(kg*K)" instead of "R=287 kJ/(kg*K)" and the units will work out in the formula as originally posted. Gee, you guys are sharp! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 18:24:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA08203; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:02:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA08120; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:56:13 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <177636-2>; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:52:56 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02093; Thu, 7 Mar 96 12:43:35 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma002091; Thu Mar 7 12:43:30 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02779; Thu, 7 Mar 96 12:39:03 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA17370; Thu, 7 Mar 96 12:51:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:51:58 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603071751.AA17370@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Engine Analyzer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Recently there has been some discussion about the accuracy of commercial programs like Engine Analyzer. I've been playing with Engine Analyzer, and I'm fairly impressed. They claim +/- 15% accuaracy between their calculations and a real dyno test. Here is a list of the inputs available to EA. This list was something I cribbed up to create a spec sheet for an engine, so there may be an error or two. You'll note that some inputs seem redundant. That is because EA allows you to enter a measured value, or if you don't have one it will estimate from other characteristics. For example, it I have an intake manifold tested on a flow bench, then I can enter those values directly. If not, then by entering shape, diameter, length, etc., EA will estimate the flow rating. Obviously, a measurement is more accurate than an estimate. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Specifications Base Engine Bore, inches Stroke, inches Number of cylinders Compression ratio Clearance Head combustion chamber volume, cc's Piston dome volume, cc's Gasket thickness, inches Deck height, inches Mill Inches milled Percentage of bore area Accessories 0 - Race engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Production engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Race Drag engine, in vehicle 2 - Production engine, min. accessories, in vehicle 2 - Road race engine, in vehicle 3 - '1970s' production engine, in vehicle 4 - 'Pre 1970s' production engine, in vehicle Intake System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Intake Type 1 - Dual plane manifold 2 - Single plane manifold (street) 3 - Single plane manifold (race) 4 - Production 'long runner' injected 5 - Individual runner (IR) carburetors 6 - Individual fuel injector stacks Intake heat (Yes/No) Carburetor/Throttle-body flow rating, CFM Total number of primary barrels Primary throttle diameter, inches Total number of secondary barrels Secondary throttle diameter, inches Vacuum secondary (Yes/No) Exhaust System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Exhaust system CFM rating, CFM Original engine HP Vehicle type (Race/Sport/Quiet) Cam/Valve Train Intake cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BTDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ABDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Exhaust cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BBDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ATDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Cam advance, degrees Supercharger Supercharger present (Yes/No) Supercharger type (Centrifugal/Racing roots/Street roots/Turbo) Boost limit, "Hg Intercooler efficiency, % 0 - No intercooler 50 -Typical intercooler 100 - 'Perfect' intercooler 150 - 'Cooled' intercooler Centrifugal/Roots belt ratio Supercharger pulley diameter, inches Crank pulley diameter, inches Roots volume per revolution, cubic inches Relative turbo size (Small/Medium/Large/Xtra large) Calculate Performance Environmental conditions Barometric pressure, "Hg Intake air temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Relative humidity, % Relative humidity temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Elevation, feet Coolant temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Nitrous oxide specifications Nitrous oxide system rating, HP RPM to start nitrous RPM for full nitrous Gas/Alcohol (G/A) Rpm's to Run Starting RPM Number of Rpm's RPM increment Recommended runner dimensions For this RPM Specified intake runner length, inches ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- With all those inputs, EA also puts out a fairly complete "dyno sheet" as well as graphing torque and HP vs RPM (including overplotting two runs so you can see the differences. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- ------ ENGINE COMMENTS --------------------------------------------------- Mercruiser MC470 Stock Rated at 170 HP; Suggested peak RPM is 4400 RPM ------ PROJECTED PERFORMANCE --------------------------------------------- RPM 600 1200 1800 2400 3000 3600 4200 4800 5400 6000 BRK TQ 190 208 218 220 222 222 207 187 164 139 BRK HP 21.8 47.6 74.8 101 127 152 166 171 169 159 EX PRS .1 .3 .8 1.5 2.4 3.5 4.4 5.1 5.7 6.1 IN VAC 0.0 0.0 .1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .7 VE % 67.7 74.5 78.9 81.4 83.8 85.8 83.0 79.5 75.3 70.2 CFM 28.3 62.3 99.0 136 175 215 243 266 283 293 FL FLW 10.4 22.9 36.3 49.9 64.3 78.9 89.0 97.6 104 108 BSFC .477 .480 .485 .496 .507 .518 .537 .571 .615 .678 BSAC 5.966 6.006 6.068 6.206 6.340 6.477 6.710 7.135 7.686 8.471 FRN HP 2 5 9 14 21 29 39 49 61 73 MACH # .063 .127 .190 .253 .317 .380 .443 .507 .570 .633 PSN SP 375 750 1125 1500 1875 2250 2625 3000 3375 3750 PSN GS 25 98 221 392 613 882 1201 1568 1985 2450 OV %VE -.4 -.4 -.4 -.4 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.2 -.2 IN VEL 23 47 70 93 116 140 163 186 209 233 IN TNP 0.0 0.0 .2 .5 1.0 1.5 1.8 2.1 2.3 2.4 IN OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 EX VEL 38 77 115 153 192 230 268 307 345 384 EX OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 -.1 -.3 -.7 -1.2 -1.5 OCTANE 130+ 120 110 105 100 100 95 90 85 85 ------ VALVE FLOW & CAM CALCULATIONS ------------------- --INT-- --EXH-- OVERLAP AREA, SQ IN*DEG 2.3 VALVE AVG FLOW COEF .284 .321 VALVE EXH/INT % 73.7 TOTAL AVG FLOW COEF .278 .312 TOTAL EXH/INT % 73.3 LOBE AREA, INCH*DEG 20.47 22.40 LOBE SEPARATION, CAM DEG 112.0 VLV AREA, SQ IN*DEG 252.2 185.9 LOBE CENTERLINES 107.0 117.0 ------ GENERAL ENGINE CALCULATIONS --------------------------------------- DISPLACEMENT, ccs 3670.6 DISPLACEMENT, cu in 223.95 STATIC VOL EFF, % 79.0 COMPRESSION RATIO 8.80 THEO. CRANK COMPRSSN, PSI 190 CLEARANCE VOLUME, ccs 117.6 CARB MINIMUM WOT RPM 870 EST INT CLOSING, DEG ABC 61.9 ------ RECOMMENDED RUNNER DIMENSIONS @ 5000 RPM ------- --AREA-- --DIA-- INTAKE DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.7 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 3.17 2.01 SPEC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.0 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 2.98 1.95 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 28.9 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 7.82 3.16 REC LEN, 3RD PULSE 20.8 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 5.63 2.68 EXHAUST DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1750 FT/SEC & 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC LEN, 1ST PULSE 59.3 REC AREA, 300 FT/SEC 2.59 1.817 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 27.0 PRIMARY TUBE O.D. 2.000 ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Analyzer comes with a 166 page manual explaining all of this, but I'll just repeat the explainations for the rows under PROJECTED PERFORMANCE to make the above example easier to understand. RPM Engines rotational speed in Revolutions Per Minute BRK TQ Brake Torque in foot pounds - usable net torque at flywheel BRK HP Brake Horse Power - usable net power at flywheel EX PRS Exhaust Pressuse in inches of mercury measured after manifold IN VAC Intake Vaccum in inches of mercury after the throttle body VE % Volumetric Efficiency as a percentage - % cylinder fills and remains CFM Flow rating of air into the engine in Cubic Feet per Minute FL FLW Fuel Flow in pounds per hour (gasoline or methanol) BSFC Brake Specific Fuel Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour BSAC Brake Specific Air Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour FRN HP Friction HorsePower - power lost in internal friction and accesories MACH # Mean or Average Mach Number - see paper SAE 790484 PSN SP Piston Speed in feet per minute PSN GS Piston Acceleration in Gs at TDC - helps establish a red-line OV %VE Overlap Contribution to Volumetric Efficiency- due to overlap scavenging IN VEL Average Intake Runner Velocity in feet per second IN TNP Intake Inertia Tuning Pressure in inches of mercury IN OVP Intake Overlap Pressure from Resonance Tuning in inches of mercury EX VEL Average Exhaust Runner Velocity in feet per second EX OVP Exhaust Overlap Pressure from Resonance and Inertia Tuning - ft/sec OCTANE Fuel Octane Required - estimated RM required for peak performance And finally: Engine Analyzer, v2.1 Performance Trends, Inc. PO Box 573 Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 1(810)473-9230 Summit Racing sells EA for about $80US. There is an Engine Analyzer Pro version which sells for around $500US and includes the following: - Valve train dynamics - Sophisticated detonation predictions - Full 4-cycle calculations for modeling of unusual or complex engine designs. (This feature significantly increases execution time.) Engine Analyzer is an MS-DOS program (runs under Windows 95). Requirements are minimal (IBM PC, XT, AT, PS/2 or 100% compatible; 512K of RAM, MS-DOS 2.0 or higher). Graphs are EGA resolution (or CGA if mono), but are acceptable. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 18:25:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA08310; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:07:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA08305; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:07:04 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <177375-3>; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:06:12 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02177; Thu, 7 Mar 96 12:56:36 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma002171; Thu Mar 7 12:56:20 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02907; Thu, 7 Mar 96 12:51:53 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA17395; Thu, 7 Mar 96 13:04:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:04:51 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603071804.AA17395@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Engine Analyzer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Recently there has been some discussion about the accuracy of commercial programs like Engine Analyzer. I've been playing with Engine Analyzer, and I'm fairly impressed. They claim +/- 15% accuaracy between their calculations and a real dyno test. Here is a list of the inputs available to EA. This list was something I cribbed up to create a spec sheet for an engine, so there may be an error or two. You'll note that some inputs seem redundant. That is because EA allows you to enter a measured value, or if you don't have one it will estimate from other characteristics. For example, it I have an intake manifold tested on a flow bench, then I can enter those values directly. If not, then by entering shape, diameter, length, etc., EA will estimate the flow rating. Obviously, a measurement is more accurate than an estimate. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Specifications Base Engine Bore, inches Stroke, inches Number of cylinders Compression ratio Clearance Head combustion chamber volume, cc's Piston dome volume, cc's Gasket thickness, inches Deck height, inches Mill Inches milled Percentage of bore area Accessories 0 - Race engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Production engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Race Drag engine, in vehicle 2 - Production engine, min. accessories, in vehicle 2 - Road race engine, in vehicle 3 - '1970s' production engine, in vehicle 4 - 'Pre 1970s' production engine, in vehicle Intake System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Intake Type 1 - Dual plane manifold 2 - Single plane manifold (street) 3 - Single plane manifold (race) 4 - Production 'long runner' injected 5 - Individual runner (IR) carburetors 6 - Individual fuel injector stacks Intake heat (Yes/No) Carburetor/Throttle-body flow rating, CFM Total number of primary barrels Primary throttle diameter, inches Total number of secondary barrels Secondary throttle diameter, inches Vacuum secondary (Yes/No) Exhaust System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Exhaust system CFM rating, CFM Original engine HP Vehicle type (Race/Sport/Quiet) Cam/Valve Train Intake cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BTDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ABDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Exhaust cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BBDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ATDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Cam advance, degrees Supercharger Supercharger present (Yes/No) Supercharger type (Centrifugal/Racing roots/Street roots/Turbo) Boost limit, "Hg Intercooler efficiency, % 0 - No intercooler 50 -Typical intercooler 100 - 'Perfect' intercooler 150 - 'Cooled' intercooler Centrifugal/Roots belt ratio Supercharger pulley diameter, inches Crank pulley diameter, inches Roots volume per revolution, cubic inches Relative turbo size (Small/Medium/Large/Xtra large) Calculate Performance Environmental conditions Barometric pressure, "Hg Intake air temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Relative humidity, % Relative humidity temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Elevation, feet Coolant temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Nitrous oxide specifications Nitrous oxide system rating, HP RPM to start nitrous RPM for full nitrous Gas/Alcohol (G/A) Rpm's to Run Starting RPM Number of Rpm's RPM increment Recommended runner dimensions For this RPM Specified intake runner length, inches ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- With all those inputs, EA also puts out a fairly complete "dyno sheet" as well as graphing torque and HP vs RPM (including overplotting two runs so you can see the differences. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- ------ ENGINE COMMENTS --------------------------------------------------- Mercruiser MC470 Stock Rated at 170 HP; Suggested peak RPM is 4400 RPM ------ PROJECTED PERFORMANCE --------------------------------------------- RPM 600 1200 1800 2400 3000 3600 4200 4800 5400 6000 BRK TQ 190 208 218 220 222 222 207 187 164 139 BRK HP 21.8 47.6 74.8 101 127 152 166 171 169 159 EX PRS .1 .3 .8 1.5 2.4 3.5 4.4 5.1 5.7 6.1 IN VAC 0.0 0.0 .1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .7 VE % 67.7 74.5 78.9 81.4 83.8 85.8 83.0 79.5 75.3 70.2 CFM 28.3 62.3 99.0 136 175 215 243 266 283 293 FL FLW 10.4 22.9 36.3 49.9 64.3 78.9 89.0 97.6 104 108 BSFC .477 .480 .485 .496 .507 .518 .537 .571 .615 .678 BSAC 5.966 6.006 6.068 6.206 6.340 6.477 6.710 7.135 7.686 8.471 FRN HP 2 5 9 14 21 29 39 49 61 73 MACH # .063 .127 .190 .253 .317 .380 .443 .507 .570 .633 PSN SP 375 750 1125 1500 1875 2250 2625 3000 3375 3750 PSN GS 25 98 221 392 613 882 1201 1568 1985 2450 OV %VE -.4 -.4 -.4 -.4 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.2 -.2 IN VEL 23 47 70 93 116 140 163 186 209 233 IN TNP 0.0 0.0 .2 .5 1.0 1.5 1.8 2.1 2.3 2.4 IN OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 EX VEL 38 77 115 153 192 230 268 307 345 384 EX OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 -.1 -.3 -.7 -1.2 -1.5 OCTANE 130+ 120 110 105 100 100 95 90 85 85 ------ VALVE FLOW & CAM CALCULATIONS ------------------- --INT-- --EXH-- OVERLAP AREA, SQ IN*DEG 2.3 VALVE AVG FLOW COEF .284 .321 VALVE EXH/INT % 73.7 TOTAL AVG FLOW COEF .278 .312 TOTAL EXH/INT % 73.3 LOBE AREA, INCH*DEG 20.47 22.40 LOBE SEPARATION, CAM DEG 112.0 VLV AREA, SQ IN*DEG 252.2 185.9 LOBE CENTERLINES 107.0 117.0 ------ GENERAL ENGINE CALCULATIONS --------------------------------------- DISPLACEMENT, ccs 3670.6 DISPLACEMENT, cu in 223.95 STATIC VOL EFF, % 79.0 COMPRESSION RATIO 8.80 THEO. CRANK COMPRSSN, PSI 190 CLEARANCE VOLUME, ccs 117.6 CARB MINIMUM WOT RPM 870 EST INT CLOSING, DEG ABC 61.9 ------ RECOMMENDED RUNNER DIMENSIONS @ 5000 RPM ------- --AREA-- --DIA-- INTAKE DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.7 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 3.17 2.01 SPEC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.0 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 2.98 1.95 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 28.9 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 7.82 3.16 REC LEN, 3RD PULSE 20.8 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 5.63 2.68 EXHAUST DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1750 FT/SEC & 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC LEN, 1ST PULSE 59.3 REC AREA, 300 FT/SEC 2.59 1.817 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 27.0 PRIMARY TUBE O.D. 2.000 ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Analyzer comes with a 166 page manual explaining all of this, but I'll just repeat the explainations for the rows under PROJECTED PERFORMANCE to make the above example easier to understand. RPM Engines rotational speed in Revolutions Per Minute BRK TQ Brake Torque in foot pounds - usable net torque at flywheel BRK HP Brake Horse Power - usable net power at flywheel EX PRS Exhaust Pressuse in inches of mercury measured after manifold IN VAC Intake Vaccum in inches of mercury after the throttle body VE % Volumetric Efficiency as a percentage - % cylinder fills and remains CFM Flow rating of air into the engine in Cubic Feet per Minute FL FLW Fuel Flow in pounds per hour (gasoline or methanol) BSFC Brake Specific Fuel Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour BSAC Brake Specific Air Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour FRN HP Friction HorsePower - power lost in internal friction and accesories MACH # Mean or Average Mach Number - see paper SAE 790484 PSN SP Piston Speed in feet per minute PSN GS Piston Acceleration in Gs at TDC - helps establish a red-line OV %VE Overlap Contribution to Volumetric Efficiency- due to overlap scavenging IN VEL Average Intake Runner Velocity in feet per second IN TNP Intake Inertia Tuning Pressure in inches of mercury IN OVP Intake Overlap Pressure from Resonance Tuning in inches of mercury EX VEL Average Exhaust Runner Velocity in feet per second EX OVP Exhaust Overlap Pressure from Resonance and Inertia Tuning - ft/sec OCTANE Fuel Octane Required - estimated RM required for peak performance And finally: Engine Analyzer, v2.1 Performance Trends, Inc. PO Box 573 Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 1(810)473-9230 Summit Racing sells EA for about $80US. There is an Engine Analyzer Pro version which sells for around $500US and includes the following: - Valve train dynamics - Sophisticated detonation predictions - Full 4-cycle calculations for modeling of unusual or complex engine designs. (This feature significantly increases execution time.) Engine Analyzer is an MS-DOS program (runs under Windows 95). Requirements are minimal (IBM PC, XT, AT, PS/2 or 100% compatible; 512K of RAM, MS-DOS 2.0 or higher). Graphs are EGA resolution (or CGA if mono), but are acceptable. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 18:45:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA08575; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA08570; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:36:24 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA20372 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:35:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071835.AA20372@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:35:56 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:35:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:34:55 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency (Re: Equations..) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1025 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > With regard to determining volumetric efficiency ... > > You need some form of air flow meter to measure the actual > amount of air that is inducted by the engine. (This actual > measurement is then compared to the displacement of the engine.) > The air flow meter doesn't have to be fancy or even electronic. > Jim (Staff), the simplest approach I can think of is to use > a standard orifice or a laminar flow meter. You can use a > simple water manometer to measure the pressure drop across > these devices (just make sure that all the air that goes > into your engine goes through the device too - buy some duct > tape). To convert from pressure drop to mass flow rate, you'll > need to know the flow coefficient for the standard orifice or > a calibration curve for the laminar flow meter. Ask your physics > teacher if your school has such equipment. Remember that one of Jim Staff's problems is that he has no dyno. This method requires steady state loading at WOT. I'd like to know what he's building first. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 18:45:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA08567; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:33:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.interramp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA08561; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:33:26 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle by smtp2.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id NAA21047; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:33:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:33:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071833.NAA21047@smtp2.interramp.com> X-Sender: usb01259@pop3.interramp.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I called newark, and they are in stock, so they said. At 07:42 AM 3/6/96 GMT, you wrote: >could it be, Tim used circuit resistances instead of an actual resistor? >I did some coil testing 2 weeks ago in which I scoped the voltage drop >across a clip lead leading to the driver ground. > >> You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the >>required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ >>6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm >>.5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. > >If you have good dwell control, the only time you'll approach these dissipation >figures is at very high rpm when the duty cycle is highest. > >one last thing. does anyone know where to get the MC3334 (I could use 10-12) > >Fred > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 19:03:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA08828; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:47:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA08823; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:47:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199603071847.NAA08823@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA139014436; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:47:16 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Equations.. To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 13:47:16 EST In-Reply-To: <199603071725.AA01256@internet-mail2.ford.com>; from "R)" at Mar 07, 96 12:24 (noon) X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ Substitue "R=287 J/(kg*K)" instead of "R=287 kJ/(kg*K)" and the units ~ will work out in the formula as originally posted. Gee, you guys are ~ sharp! ~ ~ Isn't it great??? This list is much more productive than a room full of engineers, and more fun. Who knows, one day there may be a official DIY_EFI conference (face-to-face)! - Bruce From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 19:58:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA09232; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:41:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09227; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:40:58 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <177965-3>; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:40:49 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03007; Thu, 7 Mar 96 14:31:41 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003004; Thu Mar 7 14:31:18 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03972; Thu, 7 Mar 96 14:26:51 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA18065; Thu, 7 Mar 96 14:39:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:39:49 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603071939.AA18065@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Engine Analyzer Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (Sorry about sending that twice. I thought I had cancelled it the first time.) Anyways... I was talking to Performance Trends, and Engine Analyzer is now up to v2.5 (and now sells for about $100US at Summit). The fellow I was talking to listed off a long list of changes, so I'll be updating my copy ASAP. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 21:25:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA09986; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:09:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA09981; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:09:10 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA226532935; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:08:55 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA010962932; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:08:52 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 14:08:22 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: L-jetronic To: james@brc.ubc.ca, DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi James I am still not receiving any DIY_EFI messages except a few addressed to me. So if you see a reply to my request let me know. Thanks The ISBN numbers The Probst book 0-8376-0300-5 The bosch L-Jetronic pamphlet, only L-Jetronic, similar to a chapter in above book 1-85-226008-4 Your analog meter is fine. I do not recommend the use of the oxygen sensor with an intake manifold designed for a carburetter. Most likely it will not be able to run lean at low rpm. The oxygen sensor will run the car too lean at idle. CO meters are available from Moss Motors, JC whitney. expect to pay about $150 Nothin for EFI is cheap!!!! A fuel pressure gauge is a must. The range will depend on the type of system that you will be using. If you can get an oscilloscope, that is helpful once the car is running but not essential. Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james@brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/5/96 6:19 PM Thanks Werner and welcome to the list !! I usually reply direct instead of to the list (saves time sifting throught the list looking for people who have replied to you). Wow, I'm impressed with your conversion, how did you know it would work??? Similar engine size? I've got the Jeff Hartman book, I agree it's fantastic. I'd be really interested in hearing the story behind this job, your troubles and triumphs etc. I'd like to do something like this some day so I'm trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What equipment do you have for EFI that you can't live without?? I'm looking at fuel pressure guages and am having trouble deciding which one to get. Any advice??? One more thing, can you get me the ISBN number for the Bosch FI book?? Is this the one by Adler ?? Sounds like a good read. thanks again james From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 7 23:09:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA10628; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:49:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hpcsos.col.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA10623; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:48:44 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by hpcsos.col.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+IOS 3.14) id AA259298340; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:39:00 -0700 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA061208266; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:37:46 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 15:37:14 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: To: james@brc.ubc.ca, DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi James You are, of course, correct. I was thinking about a throttle body. I don't recommend a running a O2 sensor with a throttle body unless the manifold is heated, or is designed for FI. Also it's worth considering if the engine is meant to run at stoichiometric. I prefer to run it at the mixture that was intended for the engine. Besides running a little rich gives a little more power and runs cooler. The problem is fuel condensing out in the manifold and thus changing the mixture (with a throttle body). And more - some of the '70's cars require a rich mixture for the smog stuff to work correctly. Not all Catalytic converters are '3 -way catalytic converters. Some are not even Catalytic (MGB) I've been told. These actually act like an afterburner, and need some fuel (rich) to keep things hot. I suspect the A/F meter you are mentioning for $30 are devices hooked up to the O2 sensor. Anything hooked to a normal O2 sensor can only measure the mixture around stoichiometric. It can't measure mixtures that are rich like you get with cars designed for carburettors or when you tune for max power. The CO meter I mentioned is something you stick up the tail pipe. Not as good as the ones at emission testing stations, but a lot cheaper. Ideally you want to measure the Air, Fuel ratio. none measure that directly. If you measure the Oxygen (Oxygen sensor) or the Carbon Monoxide CO meter (that measures exhaust density) you can infer the A/F mixture. I think I'm on the DIY EMI list now. I'll see if this message comes back to me. I still haven't had any replies to my original message. Werner Colorado ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Author: Non-HP-james (james@brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/7/96 2:30 PM Hello again What's the theory behind why a O2 sensor won't work in a maifold that has been machined to accept injectors just upstream of the intake valve?? Or were you talking about throttle body injection ??? I've seen a couple of conversions (in books) that do this and incorporate an O2 sensor...I never thought of this before...interesting. What about A/F meters...I've seen some people talking about these...they a supposedly only $30.00 Ever used one or know what they are talking about??? I don't know what these measure HC, CO or CO2 ??? Ya I'll keep my eye peeled...I'll check out the DIY EFI home page later today and see if I can find the instructions I used to subscribe. See if they are any different to what you used. Say where are you located ?? I'm in Vancouver B.C. Canada. later and thanks for the ISBN numbers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 01:05:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA10869; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:48:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ux1.cyberenet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA10864; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:48:06 -0500 Received: from ux1.melsa.net.id by ux1.cyberenet.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0tuqLg-0000B9C; Thu, 7 Mar 96 19:48 EST Received: from salendro.melsa.net.id by ux1.melsa.net.id with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0tuqLQ-000I7xC; Fri, 8 Mar 96 08:47 BNT Message-ID: <3140324E.5284@melsa.net.id> Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 20:12:46 +0700 From: yudhiar ariestono Organization: salendro corp. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Subject: LAMBDA SENSOR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu HELLO, DOES ANYBODY CAN HELP ME TO FIND A LAMBDA (OXYGEN) SENSOR SELLER IN SINGAPORE. THANKYOU. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 03:32:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA11477; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 03:23:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fastlane.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA11472; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:23:13 -0500 Received: from fw67.fastlane.net (fw67.fastlane.net [206.42.189.67]) by fastlane.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA05639 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:17:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603080417.WAA05639@fastlane.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: jengel@FastLane.NET To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:13:35 +600 Subject: Re: Equations.. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: Bruce Bowling > Isn't it great??? This list is much more productive than a room > full of engineers, and more fun. Who knows, one day there may be a > official DIY_EFI conference (face-to-face)! > > - Bruce > Great idea! Which continent? ;) je From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 05:11:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA11842; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 05:01:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA11837; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:01:14 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA08782 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:45:58 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Thu, 7 Mar 96 21:53 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Thu, 7 Mar 96 21:53:29 EDT Message-Id: <9602080453.AA18929@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Encoder To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 21:53:26 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <199603070507.FAA29131@freenet.msp.mn.us>; from "Jim Staff" at Mar 7, 96 5:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Jim: > Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm > marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. This kind of accuracy requires photo reduction techniques, ya can't just bang one out on your dot matrix... Not cheep and not quick... You'd be much better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? No idea. The only app circuit I have for this is pretty easy, though. First, supply the LED (pin 6) via about a 120 ohm resistor to 5v, this will give you around 30 mA LED current. (pin 4 is LED ground) The detector circuit is dead simple. Tie the photodiode cathode (pin 3) to +5v. Put in a 100k resistor from pin 1 to +5v, this is RL. Put a 10 Meg feedback resistor from pin 1 to pin 2. Tie pin 8 to ground. That's all there is to it. Oh yeah, output voltage is also taken from pin 1. I have no idea what the output voltage from this circuit is, just breadboard it up and find out. You may need an extra stage of amplification and a schmitt trigger to clean it up for your counter logic. If you need more info than that, you'll have to contact HP and get some app notes, I haven't used the thing before, either... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 05:42:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA11907; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 05:35:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA11902; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:35:04 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA16446 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:35:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:35:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199603080535.AAA16446@emout05.mail.aol.com> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu pplies to a static situation. Again rather boring for an engine... See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 09:17:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA12550; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:09:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA12545; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 04:09:15 -0500 Received: from axonet.com.au (nt_server.axonet.com.au [203.63.6.253]) by yarrina.connect.com.au with SMTP id UAA22267 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:09:08 +1100 Received: by axonet.com.au with NT SMTP Gateway ver 31 id <31400740@axonet.com.au>; Fri, 08 Mar 96 20:09:04 S From: Andrew Dalgleish To: "'diy_efi'" Subject: RE: Encoder Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 20:06:00 S Message-ID: <31400740@axonet.com.au> Encoding: 84 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thursday, 7 March 1996 21:53, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > > Jim: > > > Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm > > marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. > > This kind of accuracy requires photo reduction techniques, ya can't just bang > one out on your dot matrix... Not cheep and not quick... Photo reduction isn't that expensive. I've done it by taking a shot with a 120 camera and using the negative. Most wedding photographers could do it for you, probably for a few beers. I've also seen a sticky metalic (so it doesn't stretch) tape with light/dark bands on it. You just wrap this around a shaft a few times until the stripes line up. > You'd be much > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't another 1000 in there? > > > But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? > > No idea. The only app circuit I have for this is pretty easy, though. > First, supply the LED (pin 6) via about a 120 ohm resistor to 5v, this will > give you around 30 mA LED current. (pin 4 is LED ground) > > The detector circuit is dead simple. Tie the photodiode cathode (pin 3) to > +5v. Put in a 100k resistor from pin 1 to +5v, this is RL. Put a 10 Meg > feedback resistor from pin 1 to pin 2. Tie pin 8 to ground. That's all > there is to it. Oh yeah, output voltage is also taken from pin 1. I have > no idea what the output voltage from this circuit is, just breadboard it up > and find out. You may need an extra stage of amplification and a schmitt > trigger to clean it up for your counter logic. > > If you need more info than that, you'll have to contact HP and get some > app notes, I haven't used the thing before, either... > Sounds a *lot* better than using separate led/phototransistor. > regards > dn > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 > Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 > @ + > < > __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 13:50:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA13031; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:39:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13026; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:39:30 -0500 From: tdrury@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu Received: by SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/1.2) id AA0312; Fri, 08 Mar 96 08:40:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9603081340.AA0312@SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 08:36:30 EST To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MC3334 question Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net > version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not > something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance > wire to carry the current? Oops. It got left off the schematic. When I couldn't find a 0.075 ohm resister I found some 12 guage wire and ran about an inch or so. Between the wire and the PCB ground plane I ended up with about 0.075 ohms. (yes, I did subtract off the resistance for the ohmmeter leads). -tim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 14:36:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA13288; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:28:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bnr.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA13283; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:28:38 -0500 X400-Received: by mta bnr.ca in /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:28:07 -0500 X400-Received: by /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:15:26 -0500 X400-Received: by /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:15:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:15:00 -0500 X400-Originator: /dd.id=1752934/g=bryan/i=bp/s=rozier/@bnr.ca X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars520.b.075:08.02.96.14.15.26] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: CO sensor for... From: "bryan (b.p.) rozier" Message-ID: <"15085 Fri Mar 8 09:15:50 1996"@bnr.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi folks, After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters from the web site I was planning to make one for my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) Cheers Bryan<------------------------------------------------------------------^ | B.P. Rozier | Alleged Software Engineer | bprozier@bnr.co.uk | | voice/vmail | Bell Northern Research | CBR1000F-J VROOOOM:) | | 01279 403746 | Harlow, Essex, England | OGRI. DoD #0xFOAD | v------------------------------------------------------------------> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 15:06:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA13453; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:56:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA13447; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:56:25 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <189370-1>; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:55:47 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07021; Fri, 8 Mar 96 09:46:47 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007017; Fri Mar 8 09:46:17 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12765; Fri, 8 Mar 96 09:41:44 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA19224; Fri, 8 Mar 96 09:54:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:54:46 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603081454.AA19224@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > rated for 10,000,000 revolutions If traveling at 50 MPH, turning 2,000 RPM, that encoder will expire after 4,150 miles. You'll be changing encoders more often than most people change their oil. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 16:26:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA13951; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:18:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA13946; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:18:01 -0500 Received: by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA20147; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:17:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:17:53 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth C. King" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder In-Reply-To: <9602080453.AA18929@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. greetings: help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! later, kc -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 18:03:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA14498; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:42:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA14491; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:41:04 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <188915-1>; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:38:16 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08691; Fri, 8 Mar 96 12:29:17 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma008688; Fri Mar 8 12:28:52 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14935; Fri, 8 Mar 96 12:24:18 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA19363; Fri, 8 Mar 96 12:37:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:37:21 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603081737.AA19363@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume an average speed of 100 KPH, thats 2,350 hours, or 141,000 minutes. If we assume 2,500 RPM then that is 352,500,000 revolutions. In all of that abuse, the only thing that has been changed in the engine is the head gasket. I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 19:39:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA15571; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:25:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moon.pr.erau.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA15564; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:25:04 -0500 Received: from moon.pr.erau.edu (colec@moon.pr.erau.edu [192.101.135.8]) by moon.pr.erau.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05470 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:24:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:24:55 -0700 (MST) From: Corey Cole To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > greetings: > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > > later, > kc Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math right. Corey Cole colec@pr.erau.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 22:12:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA16762; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:02:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from venera.isi.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA16757; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:02:09 -0500 Received: from mowgli.isi.edu by venera.isi.edu (5.65c/5.61+local-22) id ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:01:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:01:29 -0800 Posted-Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:01:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199603082201.AA18047@mowgli.isi.edu> Received: by mowgli.isi.edu (5.65c/4.0.3-4) id ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:01:29 -0800 From: Jerry Wills To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <9603081737.AA19363@ivan.gallium.com> (MSargent@gallium.com) Subject: Re: Encoder (now reliability and qualified parts for diy_efi) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>>>> "Michael" == Michael F Sargent writes: Michael> I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying Michael> to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant Michael> problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) If you believe that did-it-yourself EFI and daily driver go together without needing TLC before your oil changes, I believe your dreaming. The factories go way beyond the reasonable testing to get the bugs out of production cars. We have the advantage that many parts we will use to build 'our' systems, are already factory qualified, but the Auto enviroment/specs are worse than the mil specs ,in many cases. I would be proud if the system I put together, could just meet mil spec. I have tried to turn projects (like mech T.J. FI on a lotus)into daily drivers, and found that I was always looking over my shoulder. I save my projects for my toys, not my basic transport. I want EFI on my bike, that doesn't cost what the bikes worth :^) do the aftermarket chips for EECIV-V disable the learn and recalibrate modes, or just change the basic lookup tables? and can they extend the RPM to 10,500. Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 22:21:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA16829; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:14:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diamond.idbsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA16824; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:14:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199603082214.RAA16824@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by diamond.idbsu.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA258963292; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:14:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:14:52 -0700 From: Andrew Huang To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <9603081737.AA19363@ivan.gallium.com> (MSargent@gallium.com) Subject: Re: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume And the dumbest thing is when we see advertisements from GM that claim "99% of the GM cars and truck sold in the last 4 years still start everyday" Even Lotus, with Lucas electronics could truthfully make that claim. -andy From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 22:40:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA16903; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:31:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA16897; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:31:52 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20325 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:31:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p11.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p11.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.27]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22561 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:31:40 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603082231.IAA22561@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 09:33:23 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: CO sensor for Leaded ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:15 AM 8/3/1996 -0500, Bryan wrote: >Hi folks, > >After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters >from the web site I was planning to make one for >my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that >said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( > >However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work >on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some >around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars >with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) There are two types of sensors, the 'standard' sensor for production cars which lasts forever :) and the wide-range sensors which have a life of ~500 hours for unleaded and ~50 hours for leaded. I know that Bosch sells the wide 'Motorsport' lambda sensor for ~$350 Australian. I think there may also be a long-life sensor for leaded - try talking to Link Electromotive in New Zealand (link@lynx.com.nz), the sell their 'Lambda Link' meter ($90 NZ) and also sell the sensors (~90 for unleaded and > $200 for leaded). Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 23:21:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA17111; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:11:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from shl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17106; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:11:55 -0500 Received: from cocms1.calwdc.shl.com by shl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27317; Fri, 8 Mar 96 17:19:29 CST Received: by cocms1.calwdc.shl.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.22.611) id <01BB0D09.D721BD80@cocms1.calwdc.shl.com>; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:10:59 -0700 Message-Id: From: "ROCQUE Mike (MSMail)" To: DIY_EFI mail Subject: Fuel injector optimum location Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:10:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.22.611 Encoding: 21 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, DIY'ers I'm looking for some feedback on the optimal location of the injector on the intake system. It's a high pressure (55PSI) system on a Honda VTEC 1.8 L engine. It is used strictly for road racing. I'm also in the final stages of building a mold for a carbon fibre intake and need to know where to put the injector boss. I have read contradicting reports on the location of the injectors. Is it true that an injector mounted above the velocity stack ie outside the intake system at the mouth of throttle body...also assuming it is mouted far away to not reduce flow...that this will produce maximum power. I'm not concerned with emissions or mileage......however I'm concerned about hi pressure fuel on the atmosphere side of the system. What happens when I shut the throttle quickly..and get some fuel run-on. etc..? mike...... email mrocque@shl.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 23:26:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA17356; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:23:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17351; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:23:46 -0500 Received: from [204.134.97.27] (pmc06.rt66.com) by Rt66.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14673; Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:18:04 MST Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:18:02 MST X-Sender: cal@mack.rt66.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cal@Rt66.com (Cal Smith) Subject: EFI for MR2 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear DIY netter's, I am trying to solve a couple of problems and I think I am in the right place--I need to know if my thoughts are correct however, so that I won't bomb the list with inappropriate drivel. It seems to me from the DIY_EFI website that the majority of the effort of this list is steered into creating functional EFI/ECU systems from component digital parts, etc. My needs are functional fuel, ignition, turbocharger, and tire-traction management. I don't care whether I buy or build the control systems. To me the end result is a functional, well-performing automobile; not the building of a custom ECU system. If a manufacturer can deliver what I need at a fair price, I will pay for their product. My specific needs are an EFI system that I can control either through a custom controller-unit (ala SDS) or via PC laptop (If the PC is the solution, is the software included? If not, how much extra is SW?). I need to be able to control boost levels up to 3-bar and ignition with boost & rpm-dependent advance/retard. Most importantly with respect to ignition, I need to be able to have the staggered twin-plug timing which is so critical to the low-rpm operation of a Mazda rotaty (Wankel) engine. FWIW, I would also operate the system closed-loop at part-throttle. The engine is the 3-rotor, 2-litre variant of the wankel, so it will have six spark-plugs and six (staged) fuel-injectors. I merely need the ignition to trigger the proper spark--the amplification, coil, and spark-shaping will be handled separately. As for turbo control, I want to control pneumatic wastegate actuation via a solenoid which diverts actuation air away from the wastegate at low boost levels. Ideally the ECU would control the turbo to provide constant mass-flow through the engine regardless of rpm (yeah-right...anyway that's the goal...). As for traction-control, I want to control the wastegate actuator and the fuel-injectors to lower boost and/or cut out fuel from random cylinders entirely when the ABS signal from the front and rear wheels indicates greater than 15% slip of the rear wheels. Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated. If you know of an off-the-shelf system that meets my needs, please suggest it. Likewise, if you know of mods to existing units which could make these things happen, please drop a line. I just subscribed to the list and I hope my desires are in-line with the charter of this organization. Thanks, Cal Smith cal@cal-tech.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 8 23:37:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA17464; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:31:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17459; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:31:21 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA09570 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:20:56 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:28 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:19:30 EDT Message-Id: <9602082319.AA18945@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Encoder To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:19:26 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: ; from "Corey Cole" at Mar 8, 96 12:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Everybody has an opinion on this one: > On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > > greetings: > > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half > engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math > right. > > Corey Cole colec@pr.erau.edu Whoa! I see what they mean about the abundance of sharpness on this list! We were referring to installing this thing on a Briggs + Stratton one lunger!!! Kids, don't try this at home on your V8!!! I realize that this is not a useful device for a car engine, but on a B+S it would work long enough for Jim to run his mileage contest and then some... I figure at 1000 RPM it'll last 160 hours, that's damn near the useful life of a B+S anyway. I didn't think he'd want to spend more on the encoder than the engine was worth! Shit, now I'm gonna get 2756 undeserved messages telling me what a bonehead I am.... Your'e right Jim, life sucks. regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 04:51:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18300; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 04:39:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18295; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:39:14 -0500 From: Mitsu16v@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04612 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:40:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:40:06 -0500 Message-ID: <960308234006_164119254@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone know where I can get a chip for a 93 16 valve Eclipse? Or possibly where I can get the source code, and possibly any other mods I can make to the stock EFI: Thanks in advance! From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 04:54:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA18327; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 04:46:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA18322; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:46:54 -0500 Received: from by ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA05977; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:46:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:46:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199603090446.UAA05977@ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Encoder To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu that little encoder is a digital pot the sort of thing you would turn with your fingers in that sort of application it'll last for many years From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 13:42:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA19059; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:27:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from isy.liu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA19053; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:27:33 -0500 Received: from macken.isy.liu.se by isy.liu.se (5.65b/isy.minimaster-V1.0b2) id AA08731; Sat, 9 Mar 96 14:27:32 +0100 Received: from duett.isy.liu.se by macken.isy.liu.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA29813; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:28:00 +0100 Received: by duett.isy.liu.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03212; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:28:06 +0100 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:28:06 +0100 From: matny@isy.liu.se (Mattias Nyberg) Message-Id: <199603091328.OAA03212@duett.isy.liu.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: G6O6fCgVCwjlqQnM6v5baA== Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Measuring the real air flow is not easy. The air flow meter is sensitive to swirl turbulent flow. Also the flow in an engine is pulsating. To measure corectly, the air flow meter must have laminar, steady flow, which is never the case in an engine. To overcome the proplem the air flow meter has to be calibrated in the position where it is going to be used. For example, in our lab we have a hot film air mass flow meter, which was sent away for calibration ($150). After the calibration we mounted the MAF in our lab and it measured the air mass flow with an error of about 25%. We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 ! Mattias Nyberg From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 18:11:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA20356; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:04:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20351; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:04:46 -0500 From: CHarris233@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA20744 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:05:23 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:05:23 -0500 Message-ID: <960309130522_241695640@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel injector optimum location Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike- Placement of the fuel injector always seems to generate a lot of "discussion". Unfortunately, there isn't always an easy answer, even in similar conditions. As an example, I'd like to point out the difference in injector location on two Indy car engines. The Ford-Cosworth variety places the injector low in the port, just above the inlet valve. This should enable more precise distribution between cylinders, though at some loss in fuel evaporation due to the slightly shorter travel. The Mercedes Benz-Ilmor (my job, BTW) places the injectors high above the trumpets. This gives slightly more time for fuel vaporization, but gives slightly less control over where the fuel ends up. In the end, it alls seems to be a toss-up for WOT running. If you run into problems with fuel distribution, moving the injectors downstream tends to help. If you want to try for a *minor* decrease in fuel consumption, move the injector upstream. At low rpms, placing the injector near the inlet valve can still give good fuel vaporization by timing the fuel delivery to strike the valve when closed. At WOT, pulse width and duty cycle conspire to reduce the usefuleness of worrying about when the injector opens. I wish there was a pre-packaged answer to your question. It would make life easier for a lot of us. As all the above tends to lead toward the dreaded cut-and-try method of development, could you consider molding you intake system with two injector locations? The unused locations could be plugged. This would give you the opportunity to try different locations without starting over. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Charlie Harris From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 18:26:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA20428; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:18:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20423; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:18:22 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc87.xmission.com [204.228.136.87]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25353; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:18:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603091818.LAA25353@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 11:18:32 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Cc: Mitsu16v@aol.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 23:40 3/8/96 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a chip for a 93 16 valve Eclipse? Or possibly >where I can get the source code, and possibly any other mods I can make to >the stock EFI: Thanks in advance! Well, how about starting by reading the STOCK EPROM to a file, and telling me what the processor is (or looks like) and the xtal speed ... You gotta start somewhere :) Jim C. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 19:41:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA20595; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 19:33:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA20589; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:33:01 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA10497 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 12:15:53 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sat, 9 Mar 96 12:24 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sat, 9 Mar 96 12:22:26 EDT Message-Id: <9602091922.AA18959@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: RE: Encoder To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 9 Mar 96 12:22:23 MDT From: dn In-Reply-To: <31400740@axonet.com.au>; from "Andrew Dalgleish" at Mar 8, 96 8:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Andrew Dalgleish wrote: > Photo reduction isn't that expensive. I've done it by taking a shot with > a 120 camera and using the negative. Most wedding photographers could do > it for you, probably for a few beers. You can't just use ordinary film for this type of work. It's way too grainy and imprecise for precision photo reduction. The film must be an ultra slow very high contrast film, used to be used a lot for printed circuit board artwork and photolithography. Also, to get precise reduction of the artwork, a very expensive and accurate bellows type camera with precision dolly is necessary. You need exactly X:1 reduction if the finished product is going to have the exact line widths and precise, sharp edges you need for an encoder. Just not the type of stuff Weddings'R'Us is going to have lying around. > I've also seen a sticky metalic (so it doesn't stretch) tape with > light/dark bands on it. You just wrap this around a shaft a few times > until the stripes line up. This would be ok for low res (a few pulses per revolution), but it would be nearly impossible to get it synched up exactly with the camshaft position, which you'd need for an engine controller. > That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't another > 1000 in there? When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? > Sounds a *lot* better than using separate led/phototransistor. Still doesn't beat someone else doing all the hard stuff, + you just go down to your local supplier and pick one up. The pickup is the easy part, the optical disk is the black art... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 9 23:39:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA05556; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 23:28:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA05551; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:28:42 -0500 Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 9 Mar 96 17:28:40 -0600 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 9 Mar 96 17:28:39 -0600 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:28:39 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan A Erickson To: diy_efi cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? In-Reply-To: <960222004602_100517.2176_JHB88-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On 21 Feb 1996, George J. Murdoch wrote: > From: George J. Murdoch, 100517,2176 > TO: DIY_EFI, INTERNET:coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > DATE: 22/02/96 12:45 > > RE: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? > > I am interested in building CD ignition for driving 1 H.T. coil per cylinder > using small coils similar to that used on the SAAB 9000 DI 16V engine > I would be interested to know if anyone has any info on building a switch mode > P.S. for the above and any comments on CD ignition in general . > > Thanks > > George. > > > > Go to your local Saab dealer and ask for the Saab Trionic ignition management manual. I bought it about 2 years ago for some research I did for Honeywell on OBDII. It was $50 US at that time. I don't remember the exact name of the manual so you'll need a helpful tech person. It is written for Saab technicians. later, Ryan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 02:22:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA05967; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 02:12:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA05962; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 21:12:31 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA02772 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 21:12:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 21:12:22 -0500 Message-ID: <960309211222_164691382@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: CO sensor for Leaded ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Measure your exhaust gas temp... See ya, Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 06:38:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA06542; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 06:30:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA06534; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 01:29:09 -0500 Received: from by ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA20391; Sat, 9 Mar 1996 22:29:05 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 22:29:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199603100629.WAA20391@ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: CO sensor for Leaded ? To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: > >Measure your exhaust gas temp... > >See ya, > >Mike > i dont think it's an equilivent measurement; . egt s are common on light aircraft for setting mixture but they dont have to pass emmission tests"yet" ie peak egt- 25 to 50 deg rich for power lean to peak for economy thats what my instructor told me and never lean below 3000 ft or at maximum power only at cruise. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 13:16:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA07101; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:11:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from svcs1.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA07096; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:11:30 -0500 Received: from ns.digex.net (dcc11784.slip.digex.net [205.197.200.191]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17987 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:11:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3142D4CA.2715@access.digex.net> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:10:34 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Organization: WRLWind Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder References: <199603101000.KAA06885@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't >> another 1000 in there? > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? Modified Briggs and Stratton engines used for go-kart racing spin well over 5000. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 15:02:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA07245; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:52:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.execpc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA07240; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:52:03 -0500 Received: from innertube.execpc.com (innertube.execpc.com [169.207.8.49]) by mail.execpc.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24170 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:51:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:51:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603101451.IAA24170@mail.execpc.com> X-Sender: zurlo@mail.execpc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jim Zurlo Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency equations Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu As mentioned by the guy from Ford, if you really want to accurately calculate volumetric efficiency then you must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-)). However the book by Taylor & Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is sufficient. Jim Zurlo zurlo@execpc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 15:23:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA07293; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:18:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from seovc0.ohio.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA07288; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:18:52 -0500 From: JC_ZHOLIDAY@SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV Received: from SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV by SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V4.3-8 #6787) id <01I264VORECW8Y70ZG@SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV>; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UEGO sensor To: DIY_EFI Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm currently doing some research for a port fuel injection system that I want to build. I'm wanting it to be able to measure the true a/f ratio or at least as close as possible to it. What I'm needing is some information on interfacing with UEGO sensors. Also, I've seen a few posting and articles refering to SAE papers or journals, how can I get a hold of these? Ezekiel Holliday JC_ZHOLIDAY@SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 16:36:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA07406; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:30:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07399; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:30:04 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30715; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:27:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:27:29 -0700 (MST) From: Grant Beattie Subject: RE: Encoder To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <9602091922.AA18959@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? Last race! My B&S does over 6000 every lap (a go-kart race). GB From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 17:07:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA07526; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:05:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from learn by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07521; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:05:04 -0500 Received: from compserv.senecac.on.ca by learn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02810; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:55:34 -0500 Received: from COMPSERV/SpoolDir by compserv.senecac.on.ca (Mercury 1.21); 10 Mar 96 12:07:57 +600 Received: from SpoolDir by COMPSERV (Mercury 1.21); 10 Mar 96 12:07:55 +600 Received: from (null) by compserv.senecac.on.ca (Mercury 1.21); 10 Mar 96 12:07:52 +600 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gregory Chan" Organization: Seneca College To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:19:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Toyota ECU mods X-Confirm-Reading-To: gchan@compserv.senecac.on.ca X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <14C76EC5BEC@compserv.senecac.on.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, I'm new on this list and am in search of any information which may give me an insight to how I can modify the ECU on an 85 Corolla GTS. I have already performed most of the external mods such as airflow meter, EGR valve, temp sensor pot and am currently looking into getting larger injectors. The stock Toyota ECU does not have numbers which I can understand (i.e. by checking in an ECG replacement guide) or a removable EPROM. Does anyone know of any mods to this ECU ( I have a spare one) or can put me on to a source of information? Thanks in advance. gchan@compserv.senecac.on.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 17:09:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA07544; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:07:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07539; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:07:53 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc11.xmission.com [204.228.136.11]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16587; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:07:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199603101707.KAA16587@xmission.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:08:06 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency equations Cc: zurlo@mail.execpc.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:51 3/10/96 -0600, you wrote: >As mentioned by the guy from Ford, if you really want to accurately calculate >volumetric efficiency then you must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's >MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-)). Uhh .. what he said ;) >However the book by Taylor & >Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various >changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows >how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust >manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is >sufficient. Could you give me a cite for said book, and also whoudl you be kind enough to summarize (or just dump) that formula ... I'm VERY curious as to the effect of Exhaust backpressure on Ve ... Jim (about to supercharge an M3) Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Mar 10 23:10:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA08142; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:54:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from unix1.bart.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA08137; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:54:20 -0500 Received: from dyna-73.bART.nl (dyna-73.bART.nl [194.72.68.239]) by unix1.bart.nl (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22323 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 23:54:11 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199603102254.XAA22323@unix1.bart.nl> X-Sender: jsturs@bart.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 23:51:53 -0100 To: diy_efi From: jsturs@bart.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Could somebody please explain the relationship between EGT and mixture in a practical sense for tuning purposes, i.e. how would you actually go about setting fuel curves based on EGT readings? Later, Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@bart.nl From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 00:44:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA08286; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 00:36:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA08281; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:36:57 -0500 Received: from [128.84.141.205] (SENNA.MAE.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.141.205]) by postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26806 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:34:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dhe1@postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:38:00 -0700 To: diy_efi From: dhe1@cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) Subject: Al u-bends Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of machining and then another couple of days playing around with the technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk about it. If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. --dan -- Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1@cornell.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 03:01:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA08517; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 02:56:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from csc.canberra.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA08503; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:55:23 -0500 Received: from student.canberra.edu.au by csc.canberra.edu.au (5.65/1.35) id AA03442; Mon, 11 Mar 96 12:55:16 +1000 Received: by student.canberra.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA16038; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:54:50 +1100 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:54:49 +1100 (EDT) From: Bruno! To: diy_efi Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everyone, Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, speeds, etc. The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, plug it in, and control the engine from day one. I understand that there are more things to consider, what they are exactly are slowly coming to me. For a start, I was thinking of using a MAP, TPS, and a crank angle sensor (for RPM) and intake air temperature for airflow metering, and an O2 sensor for mixture. When using a hall effect sensor, what is the material that the metal vane that passes through the gap made of? Iron or aluminium? Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. Thanks. Bruno. ( u933234@student.canberra.edu.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 11:46:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA09243; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:39:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA09238; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:39:46 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA17883 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:36:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111136.AA17883@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:36:26 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:36:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:37:56 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 278 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 11:46:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA09255; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:45:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA09250; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:45:13 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA19060 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:41:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111141.AA19060@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:41:47 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:41:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:44:36 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency equations X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 368 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "...must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-))...." Ah, no :( but I was impressed with someone's listing of inputs into the Engine Analyzer and that's only $80. MANDY would cost you some number with lots of zeros behind it plus a workstation to run it on. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 12:00:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA09302; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:55:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA09297; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:55:04 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA20953 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:50:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111150.AA20953@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:50:13 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:50:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:51:23 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 775 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From owner-diy_efi-outgoing@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Sun Mar 10 18:32 EST 1996 X-Sender: jsturs@bart.nl > Could somebody please explain the relationship between EGT and mixture in a practical sense for tuning purposes, i.e. how would you actually go about setting fuel curves based on EGT readings? > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when the exhaust glows red! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 14:33:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA09871; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:21:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elvis.viewlogic.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09866; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 09:20:54 -0500 Received: from falcon2 (falcon2.viewlogic.com) by elvis.viewlogic.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25593; Mon, 11 Mar 96 09:20:50 EST Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 09:20:50 EST From: matthew@viewlogic.com (Matthew Wallis) Message-Id: <9603111420.AA25593@elvis.viewlogic.com> Received: by falcon2 (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24933; Mon, 11 Mar 96 09:22:08 EST To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Al u-bends Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > X-Sender: dhe1@postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:38:00 -0700 > From: dhe1@cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) > Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Content-Length: 759 > > We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so > we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of > machining and then another couple of days playing around with the > technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work > something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from > various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) > including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk > about it. > > If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. I would like to get a description of the tool. Any plans available? I need to do some bending of some 0.75", 0.035" Wall 5052 Al tubing. - Matthew > > --dan > > -- > Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 > Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1@cornell.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 16:00:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA10272; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:43:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from opus.mtu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10267; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:19 -0500 Received: from mtu.edu (mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by opus.mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA20034 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:14 -0500 Received: from mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (mmserver.mm.mtu.edu [141.219.20.61]) by mtu.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA02386 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:14 -0500 Received: from metlab1.my.mtu.edu (metlab1.my.mtu.edu [141.219.20.81]) by mmserver.mm.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.3) with SMTP id KAA01713 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:12 -0500 From: "Paul E. Campbell" Received: (from pecampbe@localhost) by metlab1.my.mtu.edu (8.6.9/MTU-1.2) id KAA04555 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111543.KAA04555@metlab1.my.mtu.edu> Subject: Re: EFI without a lookup table To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:00 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Bruno!" at Mar 11, 96 01:54:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1140 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruno writes: > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > speeds, etc. Yes. It's called an "adaptive algorithm" but it requires more CPU power than simple table lookups. BUT you will have to at least temporarily run open loop during warmup until your O2 sensor is functioning (unless you want to buy a sensor with a 4 digit price tag). > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. I understand that there > are more things to consider, what they are exactly are slowly coming to me. What you might also consider is if you came up with a generic map that would at least get the vehicle started, it could then do map updates and slowly tune itself. This is along the lines I've been thinking of. > When using a hall effect sensor, what is the material that the metal vane > that passes through the gap made of? Iron or aluminium? Has to be ferrous. So aluminum is out. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 16:46:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA10780; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:37:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA10775; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:37:22 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <10384-1>; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:35:12 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00530; Mon, 11 Mar 96 11:10:08 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma000528; Mon Mar 11 11:10:03 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10485; Mon, 11 Mar 96 11:05:10 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA21817; Mon, 11 Mar 96 11:18:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:18:38 -0500 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9603111618.AA21817@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I love it when the exhaust glows red! Are Titanium valves geting cheaper? :-) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 17:00:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA10820; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:51:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA10815; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:51:35 -0500 Received: from frankparker.chem.lsa.umich.edu by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.4/2.3) with SMTP id LAA08927; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:51:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:52:52 -0500 (EST) From: Frank Parker To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? X-Sender: fparker@f.imap.itd.umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199603111150.AA20953@internet-mail.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at > WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune > A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of > ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to > use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when > the exhaust glows red! > > Ed Hernandez > Ford Motor Company > ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com > I have had a hard time getting a good relationship between absolute exhaust temp and a/f ratio and temp limits. I have taken data on my datalogger @ 100 times/sec monitoring fuel pressure, turbo boost, o2 sensor voltage and egt. The type k t/c was located about 3" from head exhaust outlet flange. I saw about 1650 deg F max at wot, with about 10sec @ max 8psi boost. I could adjust nonlinear fuel press regulator to add more fuel and see 50 deg temp drop. O2 sensor voltage went from about .82 to about .84, but std o2 sensors are very nonlinear here. Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max inlet temp. As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made by NGK)??? From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 17:01:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA10839; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:58:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA10833; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:58:11 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA02783 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:54:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111654.AA02783@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:54:50 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:54:50 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EFI without a lookup table In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 96 13:54:49 +1100." Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 11:57:49 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > speeds, etc. That would depend on what the variable(s) you're trying to control are. Current table-based routines are attempts at achieving desired torque, power, emissions, and fuel consumption, plus many more less quantifiable parameters like drivability, noise, shift quality, etc. There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) Add to this that engines behave very nonlinearly (just look at emissions versus fuel/air ratio) and you have a very challenging problem. > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. Wow. If you ever get to this point with a cost-effective design, companies will line up to buy it. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 17:01:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA10844; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:58:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from isy.liu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA10834; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:58:12 -0500 Received: from macken.isy.liu.se by isy.liu.se (5.65b/isy.minimaster-V1.0b2) id AA23128; Mon, 11 Mar 96 17:58:10 +0100 Received: from duett.isy.liu.se by macken.isy.liu.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01765; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:58:28 +0100 Received: by duett.isy.liu.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA00447; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:58:44 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:58:44 +0100 From: matny@isy.liu.se (Mattias Nyberg) Message-Id: <199603111658.RAA00447@duett.isy.liu.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 4qQQUq2mYIM4iFShIzGDng== Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" > > What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your > meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies > greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? The engine is a SAAB 2.3L standard production engine (fuel injection, no turbo, no EGR). The volumetric efficiencies close to 1.1 was obtained around 4000 rpm. Normally the vol. eff. should be 0.85 (see any engine book) which makes an error of (1.1-.85)/.85=29%. How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? Mattias Nyberg From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 17:39:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA10989; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:32:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA10984; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:32:20 -0500 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA10943 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:28:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111728.AA10943@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:28:42 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:28:42 -0500 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 96 17:58:44 +0100." <199603111658.RAA00447@duett.isy.liu.se> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 12:31:42 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? A non-boosted engine can still have a volumetric efficiency greater than one. A highly tuned induction system can produce manifold pressure pulsations (at some engine speeds) which are higher than ambient pressure and which occur when the intake valve is open. Since volumetric efficiency is usually calculated using ambient pressure as the reference, the result ends up being greater than one. It's possible, but I don't think common. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 18:37:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA11301; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:30:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dev03.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA11296; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:30:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199603111830.NAA11296@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by dev03.cebaf.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA212639005; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:30:05 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:30:05 EST In-Reply-To: <199603111658.RAA00447@duett.isy.liu.se>; from "Mattias Nyberg" at Mar 11, 96 5:58 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ~ How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? ~ ~ Mattias Nyberg ~ Quoting from the superflow flow bench manual: "Inertial Supercharging Effect: When the intake valve starts to close, the fast moving air column tries to keep ramming itself into the cylinder. If the inlet valve is closed at just the right instant, the extra charge will be trapped in the cylinder (called inertial supercharging). Volumetric efficiencies up to 130 percent can be obtained......." They then go on to define the inertia-supercharge index Z, which is an empirical value which is a measure of the strength of the inertia supercharge. To compute this: 1) Find Cv = (valve flow (total) for one cylinder filling event at given test pressure) --------------------------------------------------- (Maximum flow possible at given test pressure) Cv is intake system flow rating (normalized) 2) Find average inlet valve area: A = Cv * (valve area in sq. inches) 3) Compute Z: Z=((RPM/126000)) * sqrt((CID * Inlet Length)/(A)) Z will usually be between 0.9 and 1.2 - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 19:38:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA11823; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:33:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA11816; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:33:12 -0500 Received: from rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.166.38]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27006 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: orlin steven jared Received: (from orlin-s@localhost) by rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA09872 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:33:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603111933.OAA09872@rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:33:00 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Frank Parker" at Mar 11, 96 11:52:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have had a hard time getting a good relationship between absolute exhaust > temp and a/f ratio and temp limits. I have taken data on my datalogger @ > 100 times/sec monitoring fuel pressure, turbo boost, o2 sensor voltage > and egt. The type k t/c was located about 3" from head exhaust outlet > flange. I saw about 1650 deg F max at wot, with about 10sec @ max 8psi > boost. I could adjust nonlinear fuel press regulator to add more fuel and > see 50 deg temp drop. O2 sensor voltage went from about .82 to about .84, > but std o2 sensors are very nonlinear here. > Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple > placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max > inlet temp. In my opinion, EGT's aren't really very useful in tuning AFR. You will spend more time and money doing this, and have more failures (most likely) than if you just plunked down the initial investment in the Horiba UEGO unit. The main advantage of EGT's is checking fuel distribution. > As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 > sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made > by NGK)??? You may want to look into Bosch. Last I heard they were coming out with some type of a comparable unit, with UEGO sensors for $250 ea., instead of the $900 Horiba sensors. STeve From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 19:38:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA11803; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:29:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA11798; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:29:47 -0500 Received: from rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.166.38]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26408 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: orlin steven jared Received: (from orlin-s@localhost) by rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA09860 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:29:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603111929.OAA09860@rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency equations To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:29:45 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199603101707.KAA16587@xmission.xmission.com> from "Land Shark" at Mar 10, 96 10:08:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >However the book by Taylor & > >Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various > >changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows > >how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust > >manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is > >sufficient. > > Could you give me a cite for said book, and also whoudl you be kind enough > to summarize (or just dump) that formula ... I'm VERY curious as to the > effect of Exhaust backpressure on Ve ... > The book is called _The internal combustion engine in theory and practice_ It's by Charles Fayette Taylor, and the one you want for these formulas is Volume 1. There are several formulas for volumetric efficiency he gives. The one that includes the pressure ratio is the following: Ev = 0.285 + (r - Pe/Pi)/(1.4*(r - 1)) Don't expect super accurate answers from this formula, because he 'derived' it from experimental results for engines with small valve overlap and pressure ratios greater than 0.5 I would suggest reading the book. And if your engine is similar to what he tested, then your results will be better. He also includes graphs of Ev and every possible engine parameter. Volumetric efficiency defined, for an ideal fuel-air cycle is: Ev = Mi/(V1 - V2)pi where: Mi is the mass of fresh mixture supplied and pi is the density of this mixture at the pressure and temp. V1-V2 is the total displacement of the engine. Evolved into formulas you can use directly for engines: Ev = 2*mass flow rate of fresh mixture / (rpm * total displacement * inlet dens) You can also express this formula on the basis of dry air, and make it even more user friendly: Ev = 4*mass fl rate of dry air/(dens air * total piston area * mean piston spd) Where mean piston speed = 2 * stroke * rpm This is easier to use because you can calculate the density of dry air with good accuracy for your given temp/press. And the only thing you need is the mass flow rate of the dry air. To the guy who doesn't understand how you can get an Ev over 1, consider a forced induction situation, or a tuned supercharge effect from the intake design. Also consider that the strict definition of Ev only accounts for the mass of the mixture in the displacement volume -NOT including the combution chamber volume. Even so, unless you have an extremely large combustion chamber, or a forced induction, you should not rule out numerical inaccuracy in your calculations. But for the record books, you can have volumetric efficiencies over 1. Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 23:21:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA13589; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:07:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA13584; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:07:26 -0500 Received: from rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.10.30]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27835 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: orlin steven jared Received: (from orlin-s@localhost) by rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA10484 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:07:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603112307.SAA10484@rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:07:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199603111830.NAA11296@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> from "Bruce Bowling" at Mar 11, 96 01:30:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > "Inertial Supercharging Effect: > > When the intake valve starts to close, the fast moving air column > tries to keep ramming itself into the cylinder. If the inlet > valve is closed at just the right instant, the extra charge will be trapped > in the cylinder (called inertial supercharging). Volumetric efficiencies > up to 130 percent can be obtained......." I think this is mentioned in the ASME paper "design of a tuned intake", probably where superflow got it from ;-) > They then go on to define the inertia-supercharge index Z, which > is an empirical value which is a measure of the strength of the > inertia supercharge. To compute this: > 3) Compute Z: > > Z=((RPM/126000)) * sqrt((CID * Inlet Length)/(A)) > > Z will usually be between 0.9 and 1.2 > This looks like a 'makeshift' Inlet Mach Index formula. (I could be wrong). The Inlet mach index is the ratio of the typical inlet velocity to the inlet sonic velocity. Z = ((b/D)^2 )* s /(Ci*a) pg 173 of Taylor's book. Where b = cylinder bore D = inlet valve diameter s = mean piston speed = 2 X rpm X stroke Ci = mean inlet flow coefficient a = local velocity of sound a can be calculated by multiplying a constant by the square root of the temperature (absolute). Ci is the hanger here. It correlates to the ratio of the lift/inlet valve diameter. But my guess is that for whatever you need to come up with a mach index for, an approximation is good enough ;) There are graphs for Ci in the book too. The reason why I have doubts that maybe this isn't the same "Z" factor as Bruce posted is because you don't want a value of over .6 for the inlet mach index. volumetric efficiency starts to drop off fast after that. I didn't hack through the math/units to compare the two, but they look similar. Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 11 23:22:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA13610; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:19:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA13605; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:19:09 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07566 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:19:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p17.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p17.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.33]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24204 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:18:59 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603112318.JAA24204@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:20:43 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:52 AM 11/3/1996 -0500, you wrote: >As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 >sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made >by NGK)??? > Bosch makes a 'motorsport' wide range lambda probe. About $350 Australian. But they only have a life of about 500 hours for unleaded and 50 hours for leaded. Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 01:33:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA13989; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:27:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA13984; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:27:50 -0500 Received: from ptp9.tecinfo.com (ptp9.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.231]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA17866; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:19:58 -0600 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:19:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199603120119.TAA17866@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: DIY FI facts Cc: IMD1@msn.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:01 PM 3/8/96 -0800, Jerry Wills wrote: >If you believe that did-it-yourself EFI and daily driver go together without needing >TLC before your oil changes, I believe your dreaming. The factories go way beyond the >reasonable testing to get the bugs out of production cars. We have the advantage that >many parts we will use to build 'our' systems, are already factory qualified, but the >Auto enviroment/specs are worse than the mil specs ,in many cases. I would be proud >if the system I put together, could just meet mil spec. > >I have tried to turn projects (like mech T.J. FI on a lotus)into daily drivers, and >found that I was always looking over my shoulder. > Jerry Wills ============================================================================ ========== I almost agree with you 100% on this one Jerry. But... I've been driving an up-graded '58 Chevy truck for ten years. I depend on it for everyday transportation (170 +miles/week) and she seldom lets me down (can't say that about some of the women in my life :). The only thing that's original is a few body parts. The main thing that I've learned about modifying auto machinery (FI, brakes, body, chassis, or what ever), is to know at what level to start D_I_Y_ing at. Have you ever herd of a "do it your self" person try to cast their own engine block or smelt their own alloys? My philosophy is, "when in question, see what the OEM uses and adapt it to your application". In most cases, not all, the OEM knows best. They've got better toys and have been playing with them much longer than most of us have. Occasionally, we (D_Y_I_ers) can slip up on something original. I don't know about you guys, but I do it strictly for fun. Keep the D_I_Y mentality alive! BTW, this is comming from a guy who is building a car... from scratch :-() GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 01:33:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA13966; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:19:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id UAA13961; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:19:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:19:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199603120119.UAA13961@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: Andrew Dalgleish Subject: RE: EFI without a lookup table Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Monday, 11 March 1996 11:57, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > > > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > > speeds, etc. > > That would depend on what the variable(s) you're trying to control are. > Current table-based routines are attempts at achieving desired torque, > power, emissions, and fuel consumption, plus many more less quantifiable > parameters like drivability, noise, shift quality, etc. > > There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. > That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that > darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) How about a strain gauge on the tail-shaft? Calibrating it might be a bear... > > Add to this that engines behave very nonlinearly (just look at emissions > versus fuel/air ratio) and you have a very challenging problem. > > > > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. > > Wow. If you ever get to this point with a cost-effective design, > companies will line up to buy it. > > > > > Anthony Tsakiris > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 01:50:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA14034; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:40:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA14029; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:40:55 -0500 Received: from p3-19.net-link.net (p3-19 [205.217.6.183]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA03544 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:37:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199603120137.UAA03544@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:26:59 -0800 To: diy_efi From: William Sarkozy Subject: Re: Al u-bends Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 07:38 PM 3/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so >we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of >machining and then another couple of days playing around with the >technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work >something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from >various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) >including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk >about it. > >If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. > >--dan > >-- >Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 >Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1@cornell.edu > > > I'm very interested. Is the 1-3/8" diameter the only size you do? Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 03:45:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA14234; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 03:33:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from simon.cs.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA14229; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:33:24 -0500 Received: from cloyd.cs.cornell.edu (CLOYD.CS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.227.15]) by simon.cs.cornell.edu (8.6.10/R1.4) with ESMTP id WAA18082 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:33:23 -0500 Received: from CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU (CS-ANNEX-1-05.CS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.254.21]) by cloyd.cs.cornell.edu (8.6.10/M1.8) with SMTP id WAA00754 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:33:20 -0500 Received: by CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU with Microsoft Mail id <01BB0F9A.48730BA0@CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU>; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:29:59 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB0F9A.48730BA0@CS-ANNEX-1-01.CS.CORNELL.EDU> From: Jody Shapiro To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Cc: "'F-Body List'" Subject: RE: EFI without a lookup table Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:29:46 -0500 Encoding: 34 TEXT, 62 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm cross-posting this to both the DIY_EFI list and the F-Body list because this topic has come up and I haven't seen anyone mention the item belower which looks interesting. >---------- >From: Andrew Dalgleish[SMTP:andrewd@axonet.com.au] >Sent: Monday, March 11, 1996 8:19 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; jshapiro@cs.cornell.edu >Subject: RE: EFI without a lookup table > > >On Monday, 11 March 1996 11:57, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: >> There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. >> That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that >> darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) >> Anthony Tsakiris > >How about a strain gauge on the tail-shaft? >Calibrating it might be a bear... > >Andrew Dalgleish On page 54 of the Feb 96 issue of Chevy High Performance under the article "50 Hot New Parts" which talks about items from the SEMA show (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Assocation): "Ever wondered what your engine's horsepower is at operating conditions? DYNOmite ((603)329-5645) has an onboard dyno that allows monitoring and recording of the horsepower at the driveshaft while the car is on the road. The key is an output-shaft-mounted strain gauge." -Jody --- http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/jshapiro/jshapiro.htm begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CL#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`) "```"````# ````,``# $````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F4!C:7-C;RYC;VT````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````$0`` M`&8M8F]D>4!C:7-C;RYC;VT``````P`5# (````#`/X/!@```!X``3 !```` M#@```"=&+4)O9'D@3&ES="<````"`0LP`0```!8```!33510.D8M0D]$64!# M25-#3RY#3TT````#```Y``````L`0#H``````@'V#P$````$````````!7&# M`0B !P`8````25!-+DUI8W)OV 1SYO91$535 `````>`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&IS:&%P:7)O0&-S+F-O``@0`0```&4```!)34-23U-3+5!/4U1) M3D=42$E35$]"3U1(5$A%1$E9149)3$E35$%.1%1(148M0D]$64Q)4U1"14-! M55-%5$A)4U1/4$E#2$%30T]-155004Y$24A!5D5.5%-%14Y!3EE/3D5-```` M``(!"1 !````2@4``$8%``##"@``3%I&=2C>1@O_``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% " M\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B64=E&(%D&%U$; ,= M@!& =@GP)^\%0!&P"? =X7D"(!T`!X#M`C!I`B ## JED8#8?XZ+!`!80 M!^ B1 = 9VQE! !H6V!33510.AWQ,4%D2$!A>"*!="X@H2[]'V!=*[\LSRW? M!E$","\_A3!+30(@9&%Y+ 70$PK )($Q,3F0,3DY$#8@.#HZ4"!03<5\-P&E !:"V=16@!M N"? EL&\<(#1O+1/ 81/004!D M=>@[(&HQ\&$@( -@0,#NP'6(#\!P0"& =T?\DHR#Q`9$QP$0/11\J'@J/OTP_3WM.'T]_4(\JI4\# MH!\Y-CH0.:8Z8CH0.C4WISF0) `BD'(M0%4M2E'49V\;TGAT`!: 3P"7&[UEO6G];BUTA80W0*M$$()\1 ML " !;!?00#0='5"`/=DU!X!(*%P2F ;TAN0)!'@+B @*%=<1AP00@!_8(]A MGV*O0$ *P .@(_$MNV R)0$M': BD65Q<0I0*V2%(D)W.7 _9Q Z*?UG$"EH M'VDO:C\Q`4HQ(F#Q/D!S86M"X 0`;G]OC^]1#W+/<]]T[4@D`!W@!N!+2F,3 MP'(+<2!G'V!G?QT`(Q4!D ,00= 1@ & /Y=UWW;O=-Y#!T!I8GG0YQO#(X!? MD6=H'Q)*@1\P_0K +H"@>Z]\OW3?@.^!__^##3$>3I\:'(@?&AM4FHHPJ7I1 M-317$&8>)&4P\*\Z<00!;/&-(4,<\'8>P/Y(?\$ZX 207;$#@5Z0(. _'@`D M(1SB"L ;P%\1(")<-3!XX05 !\)0D*%S]B(D10&0;"3A>30C@@0@PP-2'--3 M14U!(?!*0+$'X"A3< 60!S%T'L >16S@!2 BPCFA;G5F?V4B%A 1H(K/&M"$ M7XO)0;T$$&\?4"+RF&\:T"F:O^>+V%CFB@4B12&@)#$Y0;\E01X0)%!=(2)P M"' @05'];'$G!"!*0!&A9K-<@P5 ?R 0!)!_) 6@'@`C@",!<^%M\4193D]? MH!/09R $*#890"DS,CDM\#4V-#5N,"!B`Y$"(.<&X L10$!Y;AQP9])T,D0I#Q'.(? M4*%#,R,5`V!A9&$'FZ+B(E MW_.*KQJR+4H>H; %*XA_X.&M@#HO+W>SP#-00SOH+TEN`A OCT @$#' UB]" MEK6G+G_@;86O3CL%%3$`N2 ```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@`````,<9 ` end From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 05:01:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA14433; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 04:53:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id XAA14428; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:53:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:53:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199603120453.XAA14428@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: William Sarkozy Subject: Help on 2.3 litre turbo motor Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello group, My Thunderbird turbo-coupe starts at 35 psi fuel pressure and then jumps abruptly to about 85-90 psi after about 5 seconds of running. I presume this is abnormal since the manual says 30-45 psi at idle. Has anyone witnessed a similar problem or have any suggestions? I presume its a problem with the pressure regulator mounted on the fuel rail, but could it be (I don't know how) a clogged return line to the tank? Any suggestions or insights would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...... Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 06:00:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA14706; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 05:54:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA14701; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:54:06 -0500 From: MTaylorfi@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA04346 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:53:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:53:57 -0500 Message-ID: <960312005357_243815907@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Long returns!!! Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To those people that cut and paste two paragraphs from a previous listing, just to add one or two sentences, please quit. Thanks in advance!! From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 06:24:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA14777; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:17:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA14772; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:16:44 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA01896 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:56:10 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Mon, 11 Mar 96 22:05 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Mon, 11 Mar 96 22:03:57 EDT Message-Id: <9602120503.AA19010@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 22:03:54 MDT From: Darrell Norquay In-Reply-To: <199603111150.AA20953@internet-mail.ford.com>; from "Edward Hernandez (R)" at Mar 11, 96 6:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Hernandez wrote: > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at > WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune > A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of > ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to > use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when > the exhaust glows red! Does the EGT sensor have to be close to the head? The reason I ask is that I have headers, and the only practical place to mount EGT's would be in the collectors. I assume that the temperatures would be somewhat reduced, but still proportional(?) How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher temps than rich ones? Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex function? Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? What other factors affect EGT? regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 07:32:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA14910; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:24:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from samson.kih.no by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA14905; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 02:24:36 -0500 Received: from charon.kih.no by samson.kih.no with SMTP (PP) id <09779-0@samson.kih.no>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:24:31 +0000 Received: From KIHDATA/WORKQUEUE by charon.kih.no via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.960312082429.288; 12 Mar 96 08:25:54 -0100 Message-ID: From: "Th.M.Boehm" To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:28:40 MET-1 Subject: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (R0) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm not into engine modification at all ,and I know this mail-list is a lot more hitech than I am. When that's said, I was just wondering if anybody has got some tips of parts (I've read about chiptuning!) I can easily modify or replace (Also the shops who supply them (I live in Europe)). If it demands special knowledge please tell me, or I'll probably ruin my engine. Thomas. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 07:47:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA14945; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:43:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA14940; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 02:43:06 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.137]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Tue, 12 Mar 96 17:42:54 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 17:42:54 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:58 PM 11/03/96 +0100, you wrote: > >How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? > >Mattias Nyberg > Mattias, most good racing engines would typically see 120% over a limited RPM range. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 13:29:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA15346; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:19:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15341; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:19:48 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23313 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28765 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA25548; Tue, 12 Mar 96 08:25:21 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA10227; Tue, 12 Mar 96 08:24:46 EST Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 08:24:46 EST Message-Id: <9603121324.AA10227@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Darrell Norquay wrote: > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? The function beteen A/F mixture and EGT is non-linear (somewhat parabolic) with a peak that is NOT coincident with stoich. As you richen the mixture, the EGT goes down (which is why air cooled engines, particularly aircraft engines) are run very rich, As you lean past the peak, the EGT drops slightly (along with power) Obviously, there are other factors in play, and since the EGT also varies with power level using it as a substitute for a lambda sensor is a challenge in non-linear systems design. Check out _Combustion Engine Processes_ by L. Licty, published by McGraw-Hill. It's an older academic text on the subject, but has a plot on this function. Cliff Ducharme / A wing an a prayer... _______[*]_______ b / d From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 13:30:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA15390; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:28:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.dknet.dk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15384; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:28:53 -0500 Received: from ingenioeren.dk (ingenioeren.dk [193.88.153.1]) by ns.dknet.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA14336 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:28:44 +0100 Received: from otto.ingenioeren.dk ([193.88.153.40]) by ingenioeren.dk (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA02736; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:27:19 --100 Received: from IN_SERVER_01/SpoolDir by otto.ingenioeren.dk (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 12 Mar 96 14:29:56 +100 Received: from SpoolDir by IN_SERVER_01 (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 12 Mar 96 14:29:26 +100 From: "Rolf Ask Clausen" Organization: Ingenioeren To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:29:18 +100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Simple carb-based systems, who? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <4F1B0D71DCB@otto.ingenioeren.dk> content-length: 1401 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, I've been lurking some time, and have a few really low-tech questions: I'm toying with my old Volvo Amazon (121, B20 engine) and has fitted an oxygen sensor in order to look a bit on the mixture and possibly use this data to adjust or change the carburettor setup. This works well with a simple bar graph display. Now to get on a bit, it seems a simple idea to use the lambda signal to control a valve in a small extra air pipe, bypassing the carb, and I know this has been done. The aim being to move the resulting mixture closer to stoich, ie. a low tech system improving on what I have without changing the whole thing. My question is: Who has done this? Are there any suppliers of some of this in kit form? What kind of electronics (computers?) are used? Venlig hilsen (Yours) Rolf Ask Clausen (BSc) Redaktionschef, Ingenicren (Managing editor, Ingenicren) ----------------------------------------------------------- Not agreeing is my job Phone: (+45) 31216810/3218 or (+45) 31216802 tone 3218 Fax: (+45) 31216701. Snail mail: Ingenicren, Skelbeekgade 4, PO.box 373, 1503 Kbh. V., Denmark Ingenioeren - Engineering Weekly - is Denmarks #1 technical journal. Our website is at http://www.ingenioeren.dk My homepage is at http://ing.dk/homepages/rolfclausen/ rac@ingenioeren.dk sig. modified mar. 12. ----------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 14:02:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA15458; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:54:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15453; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:54:22 -0500 Received: from rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.166.38]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA08829 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:54:22 -0500 (EST) From: orlin steven jared Received: (from orlin-s@localhost) by rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA12581 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:54:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603121354.IAA12581@rclsgi18.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:54:20 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9602120503.AA19010@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> from "Darrell Norquay" at Mar 11, 96 10:03:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Does the EGT sensor have to be close to the head? The reason I ask is > that I have headers, and the only practical place to mount EGT's would be > in the collectors. I assume that the temperatures would be somewhat > reduced, but still proportional(?) It would be almost useless to put the EGT sensor in the collector. First, you wouldn't be able to tell squat about mixture distribution between cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. You have to use the EGT sensors about an inch or two away from the exhaust port, for best results. Incidentally, I don't know much about T/C's, but I know that certain ones are rated at certain temps, so where you put the thing would depend on what temperature range your T/C's can handle. > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? >From what I've seen, at mid RPM ranges, rich mixtures (below stoich) produce lower temps, while leaner mixtures produce higher temps. But this is not set in stone. It will depend on the operation of the particular engine being tested. And each relationship between mixture/EGT temp will most likely be different. Which brings me back to my original point (maybe someone elses too?). EGT's are best used for checking distribution, not mixture. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? No. > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? It is probably complex, but as I said, could vary for each engine tested. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? > > What other factors affect EGT? The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone to construct. I'm not an EE guru, but maybe there are some people reading who could build this circuitry themselves for MUCH less. If so, I would think that it would be very cost effective in checking distribution. For fine tuning mixture, you simply need the UEGO sensor, Or some other gas analyzer method which can give you an absolute reading of AFR. Seat of the pants, and trial and error still work well though. Steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Mar 12 21:30:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA19453; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:22:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dorbh.cmc.doe.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA19447; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:21:57 -0500 From: wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Received: from rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca by ns.etc.ncr.doe.ca with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA04551; Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:04:12 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca id AA826676294 Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:18:14 EST Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:18:14 EST Message-Id: <9602128266.AA826676294@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My understanding is that (in general) the exhaust gas temperature is lower with a rich mixture and raises to a point as you get leaner, then starts to drop as you continue going lean. This may or may not be useful in trying to determine your AF ratio, but it is useful in determining when your pistons are about to seize in a two stroke. Polaris put a system on one of their production snowmobiles this year that monitors the exhaust gas temperature while you are at full throttle (like when racing across a lake). If the temperature gets dangerously high the monitor shuts down the ignition for an instant (like a rev limiter). Using a AFR sensor in a standard two stroke is not very practical as a mixture of burnt and unburned gets blown out the exhaust. I had considered using EGT feed back in a fuel injection system for two strokes to richen up the mixture if the temperature got to hot. I have read about a similar technique used by people who race two stroke motocross bikes in the desert. When they started to sense a lean condition, they would operate a finger controlled choke until the engine cooled a bit in order to prevent seizures. >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, >which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone >to construct. You could by a 486 computer and data acquisition card for less then that and end up with something a lot more flexible for a DIYer. Starting Line Products sells an adjustable EGT monitor called a Stutter Box for sleds ($136US for single cylinder, $181 for twin, $227 for triple). They also sell reasonably priced EGT gauges starting at $51US (2") $68US (3"),and $34US for a probe. SLP is at http://www.srv.net/shop/slp/slp.html email: slp@srv.net Royal Distributing (800-265-2970) also sells these gauges (3") $150CAN with a probe. Omega Engineering (800-TC-OMEGA) sells MANY different types of thermocouple probes and gauges as well. It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same temperature. There are many simple, documented circuits for reading thermocouples if you feel up to constructing one. Will McGonegal Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 00:46:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA20198; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:26:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from seraph.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA20193; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:26:01 -0500 Received: from rascl by mail.uunet.ca with UUCP id <267251-7>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:48:43 -0500 Received: by asc.on.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10786; Tue, 12 Mar 96 13:41:03 EST From: broberg@asc.on.ca (Robert Broberg) Message-Id: <9603121841.AA10786@asc.on.ca> Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:41:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: <9602120503.AA19010@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> from "Darrell Norquay" at Mar 11, 96 11:03:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 1762 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? When I received my flight training in an aircraft with a manual mixture control, I was taught to lean the mixture for cruise: starting with "full rich", lean until the EGT reaches a peak and then richen the mixture until the EGT drops ~50 F below peak. The peak EGT is at some point slightly richer than stoichiometric, and is the point of maximum power. Some pilots recommend running somewhat lean of peak EGT for maximum economy, ie. at stoichiometric. The EGT drops off rapidly when leaning past stoichiometric. Because the training aircraft only had one EGT probe (tied to one cylinder), richening the mixture slightly after reaching peak EGT accounts for cylinders that may run leaner (and hotter), and generally it's safer to run on the cool side. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? Unfortunately the EGT curve is rather flat near stoich, so it is hard to pin point with high accuracy. The relationship is not linear. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? Piston aircraft have been using this method (manually) for years. The mixture adjustment is usually done at part throttle, except at high altitude where the throttle is wide-open anyway. "Full rich" mixture is recommended for WOT at lower altitudes, to keep the CHT down. Rob Broberg broberg@asc.on.ca AFR = air/fuel ratio CHT = cylinder head temperature EGT = exhaust gas temperature stoichiometric = at chemically ideal AFR From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 01:23:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA20357; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:16:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from csc.canberra.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA20352; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:15:50 -0500 Received: from student.canberra.edu.au by csc.canberra.edu.au (5.65/1.35) id AA06532; Wed, 13 Mar 96 11:14:57 +1000 Received: by student.canberra.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA27122; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:14:12 +1100 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:14:10 +1100 (EDT) From: Bruno! To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting In-Reply-To: <9602128266.AA826676294@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca wrote: > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > temperature. Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, to compensate for the possible change in temperature. Bruno. ( u933234@student.canberra.edu.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 01:23:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA20376; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:19:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ecsis.ecsis.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA20371; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:19:39 -0500 Received: from ecsis.ecsis.net by ecsis.ecsis.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0twfCi-0004H6C; Tue, 12 Mar 96 19:18 CST Received: by ecsis.ecsis.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB104B.2D3A2EC0@ecsis.ecsis.net>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:36:15 -0600 Message-ID: <01BB104B.2D3A2EC0@ecsis.ecsis.net> From: "Brandon L. Walters" To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT mixture/Tcouples Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:36:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0" Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. That's for nice ones w/connectors, right? FWIW, I like to buy the thermocouple wire on a 100' roll, from Omega or Marlin, and make my own. For really hot work, like heat treat furnaces, headers, etc, it's nice to have a friend with a TIG set, then you can (with practice) make very nice round bead junctions with type K wire. Just give it several twists so you can burn back 'till it sticks, before it pops back open. If you accept more error, extension grade T-Couple wire is cheaper. Fastening the bead under a washer or something would be cheaper than buying a probe tip or well. If your amplifier is in a cool place, and the exhaust is so hot, maybe you could get by just reading the millivolts and process that. An Alternate Source, for thermocouples, wire, and probes: Marlin Mfg. Corp 12404 Triskett Rd. Cleveland, OH 44111 (216)941-6200 Brandon Walters ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig8BAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABACAAAABSRTogUmVbMl06IEVHVCBtaXh0dXJlL1Rjb3VwbGVzAHgKAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAwA EwAkAAwAAgAnAQEggAMADgAAAMwHAwAMABMADgAOAAIAEwEBCYABACEAAABDNTExNUE0NDM4N0ND RjExOUEzNzAwNjA4QzY3QjRBOAAJBwEDkAYADAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAA AAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAGVR2fRC7AR4AcAABAAAAIAAAAFJFOiBSZVsyXTogRUdUIG1peHR1cmUv VGNvdXBsZXMAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbsQfXZKRFoRxnw4Ec+aNwBgjGe0qAAAHgAeDAEAAAADAAAA TVMAAB4AHwwBAAAAGgAAAFdpbmRvd3MvQlJBTkRPTlcvQlJBTkRPTlcAAAADAAYQvQGKbwMABxDl AgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVEhFTEFTVFRJTUVJQ0hFQ0tFRCw4VEhFUk1PQ09VUExFU1JBTkFCT1VU JDI0MFRIQVRTRk9STklDRU9ORVNXL0NPTk5FQ1RPUlMsUklHSFQ/RldJVyxJTElLRVRPQlVZVEhF VAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAIYDAACCAwAAEwUAAExaRnVaBVPs/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArA c2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKAfQqACM8J2QKABwqBDbELYG5nMTAz DxRQCwoUUQvxID5UaExlIAtgE8AgdAdxICxJIBFwBZBrCYAsILY4GfAZgHIEYAWgdQtQPQeRcgOR AaAIYAVAJDIYNDAuCoUZcGF0J+8EIAIQBcADAGMZkAIgB5GUdy8FoG4ecGN0BbCGcxrgBRBnaHQ/ CoVhCoVGV0lXGuAaUGwGaRqwGfBvIGJ1eXcbEhsbHqBpFhAeURwwINkX4DAnG/AG8Gwa4ANSdCBP B4BnI6AFsAqFTZsKwCFQbhrgAHBkIADABSFxbSHwb3duLiAvIMAFsRYQB0BsIfBob/UFQHcFsGsa 4CFTGYAdgNcZ8CeRBUBmCHBuANAHkL4sCoUo8QSBH2ERwGMa4N5pHZIeEyGhEYB2GZAjoD8DUAiQ JkED8BsgI5FUSbxHIBGxGuAbIQOgeQhg9xpgAHAKhSgtMxNQANAaAO0eMCkmZCxwciHwHhMDYMp1 JkFiKrEgajFwL/FHAiAekS1CdHlwGZBLkyMTHOZKdRnRZ2kscb8rgC3RMLEHQBnwA/F0BCBecyGw LoUhwQShYgDQa7wgJxoAJDA0szABax9hhzGwHdE0o3BvcHMKhZ824zjwCfAc5gqFSWYuc38A0B4w BTEEYCNBBJADYHL9KxF4E9AAgSNxCcAqwR1QXi0IUSLnBAAaYmEzEHLdOi1GGcEJ8AuAZyIDMbP3 MXEEkCORdxnAGzElETXRzweAGyBAgihAdWwxkj62vxsRLtch0UCCI6ATUG9DceUaAHBCMndlJDA6 Ly5y/UGRbQtQBpAIkT6CC4Ajkf8FoAbwL7ALYB4wJhQiEjywfxGANDI+kTXhKAEa4ADAed9DcS6B CoUbgUNBZxHAIcCvIfAyABnRJ5FkQIZtN1H/NIAG8DWxJjJFYSnxBCBEIep0Rn1BA6BBTsAEkR2A /RmQUwhhSYId0hsrGuAjIvMmFEVjczoKhgGRJaUF0ExmZycgCFBycFSKMe0csTQdUAUQcxqwAkAH 8PZkHOZU80MbwCxwF6Ea0cBPSCA0NDFZ4FSKQCgyMTYpOVnQLa42AdAKdgqFQhwBZCNxXlcHQFFB ORYVMQBeIAAAAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAgobVkehC7AUAACDAgobVkehC7AR4APQABAAAA BQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAeHI= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 02:10:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA20618; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:02:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA20613; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:02:24 -0500 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA01214 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:02:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan1p50.ozemail.com.au (slcan1p50.ozemail.com.au [203.7.180.66]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA29667 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:01:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199603130201.MAA29667@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:03:52 +1000 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 08:28 AM 12/3/1996 MET-1, you wrote: >I'm not into engine modification at all ,and I know this mail-list is >a lot more hitech than I am. When that's said, I was just >wondering if anybody has got some tips of parts (I've read about >chiptuning!) I can easily modify or replace (Also the shops who >supply them (I live in Europe)). If it demands special knowledge >please tell me, or I'll probably ruin my engine. > >Thomas. > The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. Michael Fawke fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 03:02:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA20775; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:51:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA20770; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:51:38 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id TAA03116 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:31:17 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Tue, 12 Mar 96 19:39 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Tue, 12 Mar 96 19:35:29 EDT Message-Id: <9602130235.AA19034@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Long returns!!! To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 19:35:26 MDT From: Darrell Norquay In-Reply-To: <960312005357_243815907@emout07.mail.aol.com>; from "MTaylorfi@aol.com" at Mar 12, 96 12:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > To those people that cut and paste two paragraphs from a previous listing, Or worse, don't cut and paste at all... > just to add one or two sentences, please quit. Hear! Hear! I second this comment, especially directed at those who do not separate the reply from the body of the message. Squinting through 3 screenfuls of previously read messages to find the one liner is BORING! While we're bitchin, another pet peeve of mine is regarding line length. Please limit line length on your editors to 60-70 columns to prevent the one word every-other-line. Also, ensure that your editor is set to put a return char at the end of a line, my mail system crashes real good when it receives an 1824 character line. I hope this doesn't piss anyone off, it's not meant to. Just have a little consideration for the shrinking bandwidth on the Internet, and our poor tired ol' eyes... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 03:32:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA20857; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 03:26:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA20852; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:26:42 -0500 Received: from axonet.com.au (nt_server.axonet.com.au [203.63.6.253]) by yarrina.connect.com.au with SMTP id OAA12548 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for ); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:25:30 +1100 (EST) Received: by axonet.com.au with NT SMTP Gateway ver 31 id <31464E70@axonet.com.au>; Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:26:24 S From: Andrew Dalgleish To: "'diy_efi'" Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:21:00 S Message-ID: <31464E70@axonet.com.au> Encoding: 53 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wednesday, 13 March 1996 12:14, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca wrote: > > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You > can > > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > > temperature. > > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat > and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, > to compensate for the possible change in temperature. I have seen this done using a thermos full of iced water. The trouble is the ice melts. I guess it would be ok for short periods of time, like drag racing. You could use solid state cooling, but that's fairly expensive. Another possibility is to heat your cold junction (e.g. with a power transistor) to a *known* temperature which is hotter than ambient, but less than the hot junction temperature. You have to contend with the chicken and egg here. How do you measure the cold junction temperature in order to regulate it? I guess the real question is how much will this improve the measurement accuracy over just using ambient? > > Bruno. ( u933234@student.canberra.edu.au ) > > "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" > > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 05:08:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA21211; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 05:00:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.one.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA21206; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:00:51 -0500 Received: from port-7-7.access.one.net (port-7-7.access.one.net [206.112.193.197]) by mail.one.net (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA07656; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:53:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199603130453.XAA07656@mail.one.net> X-Sender: dapiper@mail.one.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:58:35 -0500 To: diy_efi From: dapiper@one.net (David Piper) Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? Cc: z-car@taex001.tamu.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple >placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max >inlet temp. I observed 1300 F at the exh port during cruise, light load and max of 1450 at 15 psig boost intercooled on a Datsun L28 motor. I think anything above that on a stainless valve is asking for trouble. TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 06:07:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA21441; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:03:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bock.ucs.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA21436; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:03:23 -0500 Received: from maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca by bock.ucs.ualberta.ca with ESMTP (8.6.5/UA3.0.0June95) id XAA00954 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:03:19 -0700 Received: from gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.98.10]) by maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA79762 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:03:21 -0700 Received: by gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (8.6.9) id XAA39678; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:03:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:03:18 -0700 (MST) From: TAR X-Sender: tratke@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca To: diy_efi Subject: M68000 family processors In-Reply-To: <01BB104B.2D3A2EC0@ecsis.ecsis.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello fellow tinkerers: I am a recent graduate of Mechanical engineering from the University of Alberta, up here in Canada. I was hoping to glean some information regarding m68k processors as EFI controllers. Specifically, I am looking for information on sensor interface with the chip. I am not familiar with specific sensor outputs ie) does an O2 sensor change a resistance value with changing AFR? or does it produce it's own voltage output? Is the output a linear relationship? How about knock sensors?, MAF sensors? etc. I understand Motorolla makes a chip, the M68332 which is specifically configred for EFI uses. Is this true? I am proficient at M68k family assembly language, but I am not familiar with PAL's, PIA's PIC's and the like. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction; FTP sites, books, web sites, personal experience etc. Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I request this info so I may make an EFI system for my project car, a 1972 Toyota Celica. I have already designed IRS and fully adjustable suspension front and back. Future plans include Buick 231 V6, 5 speed stick, distributorless ignition with rev limiter and traction control, and of course EFI! Thanks a million gang. Todd- ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Todd Ratke E-mail: tratke@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca or: ratke@nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 06:26:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA21517; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:23:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bock.ucs.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA21511; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:23:09 -0500 Received: from maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca by bock.ucs.ualberta.ca with ESMTP (8.6.5/UA3.0.0June95) id XAA01955 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:23:04 -0700 Received: from gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.98.10]) by maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA88360 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:23:04 -0700 Received: by gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (8.6.9) id XAA55110; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:23:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:23:03 -0700 (MST) From: TAR X-Sender: tratke@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting In-Reply-To: <31464E70@axonet.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Interesting problem, I have an idea, it should produce acceptable results, but you will have to compensate for the offset voltage produced from the cold end of your thermistor not being @ 0C, this is not too difficult. How about placing the cold end of the thermistor in the coolant stream, preferable close to the thermostat? It won't give extremely accurate results, and it'll be way outta whack before the engine is warm, but the output should be within +/- 50F. The output will undoubtedly be innacurate as an absolute temp reading, how far off depending of course, on the accuracy of your thermostat, but if you are just looking for peak EGT, this should work. It sure would ease the problem of trying to maintain an ice bath, which is not wholly practical for daily use. Any feedback? Todd- |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From: Todd Ratke e-mail: 7304-83Ave tratke@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Edmonton, Alberta -or- T6B-0G6 ratke@nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca Ph: (403) 465-4036 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 06:43:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA21585; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:39:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA21580; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:39:52 -0500 Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA11484; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:39:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:39:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199603130639.WAA11484@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu the 50*f produces more power than peak egt i was told to NEVER run lean of peak because it can cause valve and cylinder overheating how about measuring head temp . the extra fuel is used to improve valve cooling. if no egt is availible leaning to roughness and then richen till she runs smooth works fine with a cs prop it works fairly well because the tach will not show anything below a dramatic power loss summit automotive has some fairly low cost egt units in there latest catalog. for much less than aircraft types. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 07:45:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA21680; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:42:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uctmail2.uct.ac.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA21675; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:41:45 -0500 Received: by uctmail2.uct.ac.za (Smail3.1.29.1 #15) id m0twlBY-0005GiC; Wed, 13 Mar 96 09:41 SAT Message-Id: Received: by uctmail2.uct.ac.za (Mort 2.15) id 520 from PHYSIO; Wed Mar 13 09:41:27 1996 From: "SANDY" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:28:17 UTC-2 Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting X-Confirm-Reading-To: sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and > EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is > assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 09:50:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA21883; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:45:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA21878; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 04:45:08 -0500 Received: from jolt(really [203.17.137.129]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with smtp id for ; Wed, 13 Mar 96 19:45:05 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 19:45:05 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: mrb@mpx.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Boxsell Subject: Postscript viewer ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Can anyone suggest software to view *.ps (postscript) files that are found on the web site. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 11:54:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA22104; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:51:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA22099; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:51:47 -0500 Received: from ares [134.169.34.25] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id MAA09749 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:51:44 +0100 Received: from knick@localhost by ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id MAA13424 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:51:43 +0100 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199603131151.MAA13424@ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 12:51:43 MET In-Reply-To: <199603130201.MAA29667@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> from "Michael Fawke" at Mar 14, 96 01:03:52 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: > > The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, > several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers > burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found > (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, > and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the > most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. > Michael Fawke > fawkacs@ozemail.com.au I do not know for the Australian market, but ASAIK, the US GTi engines have a bit less power than the German engines, so that chip tuning could possibly give you 10kW in addition. Anyway, I agree with Michael: always be careful with chip tuning. There are good (and rather expensive) kits, and there is a LOT of crap available, esp. for supercharged engines. For my car (Polo-G40), there are kits which ruin the engine quite soon, so that I prefer to stay away from them. Just _my_ opinion... Jens From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 11:54:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA22095; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:49:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA22090; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:49:05 -0500 Received: from ares [134.169.34.25] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id MAA09715 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:47:36 +0100 Received: from knick@localhost by ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id MAA13415 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:47:35 +0100 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199603131147.MAA13415@ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: Postscript viewer ? To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 12:47:35 MET In-Reply-To: from "Mark Boxsell" at Mar 14, 96 07:45:05 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: > > Can anyone suggest software to view *.ps (postscript) files that are found > on the web site. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell > MRB Design. Mark, try Ghostview, a PD program to view postscript files. It is available for Unix (Linux!) and DOS and runs quite well. If you have a Linux package, then you already have ghostview around or you can post-install it easily. Otherwise, you should find the DOS and Linux versions on nearly any ftp-server. Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 12:58:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA22246; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:55:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vmprofs.estec.esa.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA22241; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:55:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199603131255.HAA22241@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from ESTEC by vmprofs.estec.esa.nl (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3075; Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:54:56 CET Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:54:56 CET From: "P. Buijs QCL" To: Subject: Postscript viewer ? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: note of 96-03-13 11:49 try http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ghostview/index.html cheers, Paul End of Message From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 13:05:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id NAA22277; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:04:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA22272; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:04:40 -0500 Received: from frankparker.chem.lsa.umich.edu by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.4/2.3) with SMTP id IAA00344; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:04:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:05:02 -0500 (EST) From: Frank Parker To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting X-Sender: fparker@f.imap.itd.umich.edu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was > given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone > have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? > > Sandy > ====================================================================== > The Horiba UEGO sensor is available from Horiba @ 5900 Hines Drive, Ann Arbor, MI, USA; phone 313-213-6555. They market a "LAMDA CHECKER LD-01" universal wide range O2 sensor that will read from o.7 to 1.5 times 14.7 stio air fuel ratio.The sensor is made by Ceramic Sensor Ltd, NGK may make the electronics that lineariazes the output and gives a 0-5 volt linear output for a data logger. A very nice unit except since they remarket a allready made unit, the pricing is BAD. The sensor alone is $900 and the output is not linear and the whole unit is $ 2500. I sent email to Link in New Zealand, as they were reported as a possible other source, but no response yet. Anyone know other sources for sensor and/or schmatics for linearizing electronics???? From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 14:11:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA22508; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:04:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA22503; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:50 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA05338 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199603131404.AA05338@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:46 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:03:53 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 427 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I love it when the exhaust glows red! > Are Titanium valves geting cheaper? :-) No, believe it or not ordinary valves will can withstand this. We have tried Ti, but they aren't worth the money for street applica- tions. We try them primarily for weight reduction(higher toss speeds, lower 1.5 order couple, reduced nose stresses), not for valve durability. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 14:23:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA22558; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:19:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA22553; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:19:29 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA09051 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:18:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199603131418.AA09051@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:18:55 -0500 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:18:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:18:38 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: volumetric efficiency X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1791 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" > > What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your > meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies > greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? The engine is a SAAB 2.3L standard production engine (fuel injection, no turbo, no EGR). The volumetric efficiencies close to 1.1 was obtained around 4000 rpm. Normally the vol. eff. should be 0.85 (see any engine book) which makes an error of (1.1-.85)/.85=29%. How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? You need to think more about what the engine books are trying to tell you, which is this: conventional carbuereted production engines have a typical max vol eff of ~85%. There are always fliers in any set of data. Today's production engines can easily exceed 90%, especially with fuel injection and tuned intakes. The project I am working on will achieve 103% vol eff at peak torque and 97% vol eff at peak power. This is with full exhaust and inlet sytems in place and will be a production engine. These are stellar numbers for a production engine, but are par for course for my target market. Still, 85% is at the low end of average for the data I've seen on today's engines. Vol eff values greater than one mean than you have achieved natural supercharging with a properly designed intake manifold working with a matched camshaft. This isn't a miracle, just rare. Race engines regularly achieve 100% or greater. Production engines are not far behind. Saab make good engines with high specific outputs. 110% might be high, but they certainly make more than 85%. In any case, books only give guidelines and averages. They are by no means absolute nor up to date with the latest technology. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 14:43:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA22619; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:37:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA22614; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:36:53 -0500 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA15568; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:34:18 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id bp13245; 13 Mar 96 14:36 WET Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 09:34 EST From: NassJeff To: diy efi Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting Message-Id: <44960313143444/0004388719DC3EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Try: Horiba Instruments, Inc. 17671 Armstrong Irvine, California 92714 1-800-446-7422 The phone number was good two days ago... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and > EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is > assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 15:09:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA22787; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:02:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA22782; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:01:57 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 13 Mar 96 09:44:01 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09480; Wed, 13 Mar 96 09:42:46 EST Message-Id: <9603131442.AA09480@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:43:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos Nothing that extreme is needed. For accuracy, the cold junction has to be in ice, since the voltage output depends on the temperatures of both junctions. But if you don't care about absolute accuracy, you don't have any cold junction compensation at all. That's how aircraft EGT's are done. They just add a fudge factor to the meter markings, assuming the cold end will be at some reasonable cabin temp. If you want your EGT's to be accurate down to freezing, you can use an Analog Devices AD594. It's a thermocouple amp with built in ice point compensation and runs about ten bucks US. --- David Parrish EGT at sixty-seven degrees? Hmmm. I thought that engine was running awfully quiet... average cabin temp From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 15:54:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA23333; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:45:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA23328; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:45:10 -0500 Received: by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA26766; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:45:00 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:45:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth C. King" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting In-Reply-To: <9603131442.AA09480@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, David M Parrish wrote: > > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > Nothing that extreme is needed. For accuracy, the cold junction has to [ munch ] > If you want your EGT's to be accurate down to freezing, you can use > an Analog Devices AD594. It's a thermocouple amp with built in ice > point compensation and runs about ten bucks US. greetings: has it been considered that if you attach the cold side to something in the intake plenum, then the air inlet temp gague could be used to determine the temp of the cold side of the thermo? this would require us to fix the temp in software, altho we could use the hardware to get a ballpark figure & tweak the final number based on how far off 0deg f we actually are... or is this another case of engineering overkill? :) later, kc -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 16:11:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA23392; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:05:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23387; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:04:53 -0500 Received: from darkstar (slip-31.cencar.udg.mx [148.202.3.221]) by itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22062 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:04:07 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:04:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199603131604.KAA22062@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx> X-Sender: ie21142@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: ie21142@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) Subject: EFI332 project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >From: ie21142@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) >Subject: EFI332 project > >>To: diy-efi >>From: ie21142@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) >>Subject: EFI332 project >> >>Hello there! >> >>Does anybody knows where i can learn more about the efi332 project? >> >>I tried: >> >>>http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html >> >>and I get: >> >>>Error 404 >>> >>>Not found - file doesn't exist or is read protected [even tried multi] >>> >> >>thanks a lot! >> From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 16:27:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA23463; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:21:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from big.fishnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23458; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:21:52 -0500 Received: from port32.fishnet.net (port32.fishnet.net [205.216.133.232]) by big.fishnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA27387 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:21:39 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:21:39 GMT Message-Id: <199603130821.IAA27387@big.fishnet.net> X-Sender: fcmefi@mail.fishnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg >> shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos can someone explain "cold junction" does it have to do with the voltage produced at the junction of the thermocouple wire and your measuring circuitry? how do you interface a thermocouple? a cmos op amp? Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 17:12:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA23717; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:04:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23711; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:04:10 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:04:29 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:04:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:04:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199603131704.KAA22822@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EFI332 project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >>To: diy-efi > >>From: ie21142@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) > >>Subject: EFI332 project > >> > >>Hello there! > >> > >>Does anybody knows where i can learn more about the efi332 project? > >> > >>I tried: > >> > >>>http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html > >> > >>and I get: > >> > >>>Error 404 > >>> > >>>Not found - file doesn't exist or is read protected [even tried multi] > >>> > >> > >>thanks a lot! > >> Things must have been rearanged at the 332 homepage. Try this address: http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/332_index.html RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 17:37:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA23949; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:27:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23944; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:27:26 -0500 Received: from aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.4.5]) by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.8) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:27:48 -0700 From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:27:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:27:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199603131727.KAA22899@aa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: M68000 family processors Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hello fellow tinkerers: > > I am a recent graduate of Mechanical engineering from the University of > Alberta, up here in Canada. I was hoping to glean some information > regarding m68k processors as EFI controllers. Specifically, I am looking > for information on sensor interface with the chip. I am not familiar with > specific sensor outputs ie) does an O2 sensor change a resistance value > with changing AFR? or does it produce it's own voltage output? Is the > output a linear relationship? How about knock sensors?, MAF sensors? etc. You came to the right group;) > I understand Motorolla makes a chip, the M68332 which is specifically > configred for EFI uses. Is this true? I am proficient at M68k family > assembly language, but I am not familiar with PAL's, PIA's PIC's and the > like. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction; FTP sites, > books, web sites, personal experience etc. Any info you could give me > would be greatly appreciated. There is more information onthe M68332 project at the M68332 home page which can be access through the diy_efi www page at: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi. BTW, if you need any 68020 chips sets (CPU,MMU,FPU), I have 4 sets for sale. RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 19:10:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA24863; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:01:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA24858; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:01:14 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08937 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27370 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA12440; Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:06:43 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA17973; Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:06:08 EST Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:06:08 EST Message-Id: <9603131906.AA17973@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EGT Cc: ducharme@franklin.vf.mmc.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Fred Miranda wrote: > can someone explain "cold junction" > does it have to do with the voltage produced at the junction of > the thermocouple wire and your measuring circuitry? > how do you interface a thermocouple? a cmos op amp? A thermocouple is a junction between two dissimilar metals which produces a voltage dependent on temperature. When you join a Chromel and an Alumel wire (type K thermocouple used for EGT's) you have a junction. You also have two other junctions that are also thermocouples: Chromel Copper - v2 + + /-----------^---------------- + v1 < Meter - \-----------v---------------- - Alumel + v3 - Copper The voltage at the meter is v1 + v2 + v3. In a laboratory environment, you could put junctions 2 and 3 in an ice bath, and read the voltage v1, and by using a thermocouple reference table, look up the temperature. In the real world, most measuring devices either tie junctions 2 and 3 to a thermal mass of known temperature, or in the case of an analog meter, dismiss it entirely. The reference junction temperature (- 32 deg. F) is then added to the measurement. Another method is to use a cold junction compensator, which is a temperature- dependent voltage source. National Semiconductor makes one, although I don't remember the chip number. To measure the voltage, an opamp wired as a differential amp or high impedance single-ended DC amplifier can be used, or special purpose instrumentation amp can also be used. Differential amps are required when the junction is grounded. While laboratory instruments have a high input impedance (100 Meg is typical) as long as the junction is of sufficient cross-sectional area and the overall wire length isn't outrageous, a differential amp with a 200K ohm impedance will give reasonable results. Remember, a thermocouple can deflect an unpowered analog meter movement! Most types of thermocouples are somewhat non-linear, although for EGT, type K is reasonably flat (maximum variation of 10 degrees through the range of 800-1800 F). Cliff Ducharme From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 19:43:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA25068; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:34:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from usa.nai.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA25063; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:34:42 -0500 Received: from naihp36.nai.net (naihp36.nai.net [204.71.21.219]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA19261 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:33:17 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:33:17 GMT Message-Id: <199603131433.OAA19261@usa.nai.net> X-Sender: btm@mailhost.nai.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Brad Martin Subject: Re: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:51 PM 3/13/96 MET, you wrote: > wrote: >> >> The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, >> several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers >> burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found >> (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, >> and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the >> most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. >> Michael Fawke >> fawkacs@ozemail.com.au > >I do not know for the Australian market, but ASAIK, the US GTi engines >have a bit less power than the German engines, so that chip tuning could >possibly give you 10kW in addition. >Anyway, I agree with Michael: always be careful with chip tuning. There >are good (and rather expensive) kits, and there is a LOT of crap available, >esp. for supercharged engines. For my car (Polo-G40), there are kits which >ruin the engine quite soon, so that I prefer to stay away from them. > >Just _my_ opinion... > >Jens I think we are confusing rice burners with krautwagons here. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 21:28:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA26033; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:18:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lynx.informix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA26028; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:18:23 -0500 Received: from cheetah.informix.com by lynx.informix.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA19059; Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:17:49 -0800 From: Gary Dunn Received: by cheetah id ; Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:10:02 PST Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:10:02 PST Message-Id: <9603132110.AA11385@cheetah> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Al u-bends Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu dan, I would seriously like to get more info on the tubing bender you designed for mandrel bending aluminum. Please let me know if plans are available. I have my own mill and lathe. Thanks, Gary From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 22:43:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA26571; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:25:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dorbh.cmc.doe.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA26566; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:25:37 -0500 From: wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Received: from rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca by ns.etc.ncr.doe.ca with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA00819; Wed, 13 Mar 96 17:07:15 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca id AA826766494 Wed, 13 Mar 96 17:21:34 EST Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 17:21:34 EST Message-Id: <9602138267.AA826766494@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[4]: EGT for mixture setting Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is intended for those who are interested in thermocouple information. >I have seen this done using a thermos full of iced water. The >trouble is the ice melts. >Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of >insulation, eg shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , >or in a thermos bottle(?) >How about placing the cold end of the thermistor in the coolant >stream,..... It won't give extremely accurate results,..... if you are >just looking for peak EGT, this should work. Every connection in the TC (thermocouple) system between dissimilar metals acts as a TC. Cold junction compensation is used to offset the effects of joining your TC to a measuring device (which has different metals in it). Using a cold junction allows you to read the voltage directly and get the temperatures from a TC reference table. 0C (zero Celsius) is usually used as the reference junction temperature, and in TC reference tables the TC voltage at 0C is 0 volts. For junction compensation of a TC you do not need an actual cold junction at 0C. You need to measure the temperature at the point where the TC probe is attached to your conditioning circuit. Both of the TC wires must be at the same temperature at the junction where they join into the conditioning circuit. If you know the temperature of the junction and you have a TC voltage/temperature look up table you can properly correct your TC voltage reading. To correct for the junction, look up what the voltage for your TC type is for the junction temperature. Add this voltage to the voltage reading from the TC leads at the junction. Then look up the final voltage in the TC reference table to get the actual TC temperature. Of course it is easiest to get a computer to do all this looking up and calculating. If your junction is always at the same temperature (like room temperature) you could always use the same offset voltage (depending on what accuracy you want). A circuit which adds in the proper compensation voltage based on the junction temperature can also be used. Using an ice bath and a second TC at 0C properly connected in with the first TC does the voltage addition for you if you prefer not to have a compact, easy to use, and portable system. If you are just looking for temperature peaks, take your two leads coming from your TC and attach a digital voltmeter in the millivolt range. When you get your highest meter reading you have reached your highest temperature. Curves can be substituted for the tables. Tables and curves are available from TC sources such as Omega Engineering. There is a very good description of TC principles in the Omega Engineering temperature catalog. Some suitable semiconductor devices for measuring the junction temperature are: AD590 - Analog Devices part that outputs 1 uA per degree Kelvin (very easy to use, require a resistor and voltage supply to get a voltage proportional to temperature). This device is good to 150C, so it can be used to measure other things as well. LM335 - National Semiconductor part similar to AD590 >If you accept more error, extension grade T-Couple wire is cheaper. Extension grade has similar characteristics to TC grade over a limited temperature range. The error outside this range may be quite large. Will McGonegal Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal@rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 22:46:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA26594; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:34:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA26589; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:34:54 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.49] (dialup-1-49.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.49]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA03152 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:34:24 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:34:24 GMT Message-Id: <199603132234.WAA03152@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: What's my project Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Edward Hernandez > What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone > can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT > volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust > gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. I'm building it for the Super Mileage Vehicle Competition; High School Level. For many of you in College and associated with the automotive engineers society (can't remember the 3 letter acronym) have done something very similar. The object is to build a vehicle that passes a bunch of regulations, on turn radius, length, with, hieght, weight, drivers wieght, engine horse power, engine type (Only a Briggs and Stratton!) with a very simple object. Get the most miles per gallon. Our vehicle from Eagan High School is one of the best in the state. We use a fiberglass composite body, we have hydralic disk brakes, and a very efficient low drag vehicle design. We only managed to get 139 MPG last year but set the stock class (No engine modifications run record with (around, after all it's been almost a year since then I don't really remember) 390 MPG!!! After that our motorcycle tranny ate it and died so we got docked for the laps we couldn't complete... Ohh well. The overall winner was Grand Rapids HS with 750 MPG. They use a mechanical injection system that was very ancient. Besides that I'm all done with my system except to build it. And to replace a part I can't find in units less than 25! If anyone out there has an extra 2 or 4 74AC11520's or 54AC11520's from Texas Instruments please let me know. Also If anyone is interested in helping our team, or wants more information. (We love donations the school only gives us $400 a year) you can send a letter to : Eagan High School Attn : Mr. Bob Knodt Independent School Distric 196 4185 Braddock Trail Eagan, MN 55123-1575 Mr. Bob Knodt is the instructor of the activity, if your wondering. If anyone here is real good with electronics I'll send them a copy of my schematic if they send a letter. I'd love to get it checked over. Also if anyone here would works at a place that does board etching of some kind and would like to make a gracious donation of etching my board I'd love that. I'd love it even more if someone out there could redo my board with an autorouter as I laid out all this stuff by hand. Time to stop my bleeding heart letter. Thanks for the help. Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 23:54:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA26768; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:39:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA26763; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:39:40 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.49] (dialup-1-49.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.49]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA05923 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:39:10 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:39:10 GMT Message-Id: <199603132339.XAA05923@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I think I'l go with the optical encoded disk with the HEDS 1000 as the detector. I only need 100 lines on the disk and the disk is 3 inches in diameter. I can make massive marks. Besides that I can print on a 1200 DPI Laser printer and then photographically generate the laminate wheel I need. Or even better I have a friend who is a machinist and I'd have him machine a disk with the right dimensions out of leaded steel with the right type of finish. Also a briggs want's to die below a typical 1500 RPM, without a load. Since we have a tranny with a nuetral we would die if we ever had to stop. Another thing is Briggs and strattons have a MTBF of several thousand hours. Of course you have to change the oil every 100 hours, and we use zinc impregnated synthetic oil to improve life. The life expectancy on the device you brought to my attention would still be useless to me. 10,000,000 ratations at 4000 rpm (Maximum acceleration RPM in this case) isn't that impressive. Also I need to run this bastard more than likely 100 hours just to hammer out the kinks. Life does suck!! **Attn** : If anyone out there has an port injector rated for Å15 lbs/hr and is willing to donate, give, or sell to me drop me a E-mail!!!!! Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Mar 13 23:55:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA26793; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA26788; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:52:32 -0500 Received: from [134.84.101.49] (dialup-1-49.gw.umn.edu [134.84.101.49]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA06380 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:04 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:04 GMT Message-Id: <199603132352.XAA06380@freenet.msp.mn.us> From: "Jim Staff" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In message <3142D4CA.2715@access.digex.net> writes: > >> That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't > >> another 1000 in there? > > > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? > > Modified Briggs and Stratton engines used for go-kart racing spin well > over 5000. > > Bill These folowing Mods could get a Briggs & Stratton 3.5HP well into that range. 1:) Turbocharger : I have already designed most the system, but for my application efficiency not power is important. 2:) Replace the crackshaft with a high efficiency crack. (I have one changed the horse power from 3.5 to 3.9!!!) These are cool things smaller with larger counterwieghts. They provide a smother ride too! 3:) Fuel injection. Especially with a turbocharger could get a briggs in the stratosphere as far as RPM goes. 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would make it nearly flame proof. 5:) A new connecting rod. Most are made of aluminum to, and would shear with no problem at that speed and Horse power. 6:) Increased compression ratio. A briggs and startton has a compression ratio of 4.7:1 max at the factory. I like 10:1 or 11:1 much better. 7:) Change Cam profile to a design more conducive to fuel injection. (A lot of these changes I've considered to do with my Super Mileage Vehicle) Walla: A Briggs that runs at Å10HP, and 7-8000 RPM. All from a 3.5HP I'm deranged, it's sick that I know so much about such a shitty old engine! Jim Staff From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 01:21:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA26960; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:03:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA26955; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:03:43 -0500 Received: from ptp8.tecinfo.com (ptp8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.230]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00165; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:56:27 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:56:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199603140056.SAA00165@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: TPI and thermostats Cc: IMD1@msn.com Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Gentlemen, A while back I inquired about cold thermostat = more power for tuned port FI engines. As a testiment of my typicly bad luck, the original thermostat in the engine was stuck open. Temps were at record lows in MS, so I drove it as is for several days. Fuel economy was 10-11 mpg (city). After changing the thermostat to 180 (instead of 195 per GM) fuel economy did not improve much and, I still had heater temp problems. I changed the thermostat to a high quality 195 F unit and tossed the cheap 180F AUTOZONE unit. It looks like the final MPG figure for the week will be around 14 - 16 mpg, and the heater is putting out like Bessmer Furnace. Question: My TBI engine used a 180 F thermostat and got 12-13 mpg city. Is the difference software or engine thermodynamics? Why did the cold TPI motor fall on it's face? BTW, I could detect a slight increase in power. I can imagine that the electronics may have allowed the A/F ratio to thicken a bit and advanced the timeing as part of the 'warm up code'. The Chilton manual does list incorrect or damaged thermostat as a possible cause of low fuel economy. Hate to ask this one but, since I lost my pride due to a bad love affair years ago, here it goes :-[] Up to a limit, could one expect better economy at ...say...220F (secondary fan turn on point)? I am aware of the lubrication problems and detonation at high temps, what are others? thanks, GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 02:56:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA27397; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:38:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA27392; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:38:55 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18873; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:36:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:36:20 -0700 (MST) From: Grant Beattie Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Bruno! wrote: > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat > and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, > to compensate for the possible change in temperature. Don't bother. Analog Devices (AD595) and Linear Tech (LT1025?) make cold junction compensator ccts and amps. The circuit becomes a no-brainer and the output voltage is 10mv/deg C. GB From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 04:56:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA27688; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:33:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA27682; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:32:48 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA04467 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:02:08 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 96 21:10 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Wed, 13 Mar 96 21:06:05 EDT Message-Id: <9602140406.AA19070@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: UEGO sensor To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 21:06:02 MDT From: Darrell Norquay In-Reply-To: ; from "Frank Parker" at Mar 13, 96 8:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Anyone know other sources for sensor and/or schmatics for linearizing > electronics???? About 4 years ago, we ran across a family of sensors manufactured by GTE Labs. Among the several flavors was an oxygen gas sensor. The model number was MGS-2000, and it measured 0-100% oxygen (equivalent AFR 0-40). The unit looks like a standard automotive O2 sensor, but with 6 leads. The sensor was developed in conjunction with Waukesha for their stationary engines, what they called the Waukesha Lean Burn Control System. It operates on an electrochemical pumping principle, using zirconia ceramics. It's output is a linear function of oxygen concentration. Unlike an automotive sensor, it does not require a reference gas port (air bleed), and you simply calibrate it in air to read 21% O2. I don't know if this was ever made into a commercial product, or how much it costs, but it could be worth looking into. The sensor has a heater (2 leads), a type K thermocouple for measuring internal temperature (2 leads), and the output, which is a current. Not too difficult to interface to, we actually got a sample of one of these to play with, but it was a different style which was optimised for reading methane gas. It didn't suit our application, but I still have it kicking around somewhere. At the time, I wasn't into EFI, so I didn't pursue it further. The address is: GTE Laboratories 40 Sylvan Road Waltham, Ma 02254 617-466-4123 , Contact: Joseph Cote As I said, this was a few years ago, so I don't know if the phone # / contact name is still valid. If anyone looks into this, keep us posted... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 07:12:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA28050; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 06:47:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA28023; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:44:22 -0500 Received: (from dingli@localhost) by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.11+a+b/8.6.11) id RAA06695 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:41:04 +1100 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199603140641.RAA06695@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Fuel injector optimum location To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:41:04 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <960309130522_241695640@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "CHarris233@aol.com" at Mar 9, 96 01:05:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1863 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Charlie Harris writes, > Placement of the fuel injector always seems to generate a lot of > "discussion". Unfortunately, there isn't always an easy answer, even in > similar conditions. As an example, I'd like to point out the difference in > injector location on two Indy car engines. The Ford-Cosworth variety places > the injector low in the port, just above the inlet valve. This should enable > more precise distribution between cylinders, though at some loss in fuel > evaporation due to the slightly shorter travel. The Mercedes Benz-Ilmor (my > job, BTW) places the injectors high above the trumpets. This gives slightly > more time for fuel vaporization, but gives slightly less control over where > the fuel ends up. Injector location can also affect throttle response. Injectors closer to the inlet valve provide a shorter path for the liquid film and better transient response. An SAE paper detailing Mazda's 1993 (??) LeMans engine (the 26B quad rotor that was mentioned a few weeks back) mentioned the benefits of at least a couple injector positions with respect to power and economy (they were running in a fuel quantity restricted class). I can't find the reference right now, but as Charles mentioned, injectors placed further up the inlet stream result in better vapourisation and mixing. There is also more time for the vapourising fuel to absorb heat from the air - cooling the inlet charge. The down side is an increase in response time. One of my project cars (Toyota Celica RA23, 3SG 16v) has the injectors mounted in the head which makes inlet manifold fabrication rather easy. regards, Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 07:14:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA28064; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 06:58:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA28056; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:54:12 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA26198; Thu, 14 Mar 96 14:52:48 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA826844803 Thu, 14 Mar 96 15:06:43 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 15:06:43 Message-Id: <9602148268.AA826844803@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: TPI and thermostats Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu A cold motor means the ECU is runnig open loop and rich, this could explain the bad fuel economy and why the power is not what it should be. The ECU does not (as far as I'm aware) go into closed loop until everything is reasonably warm. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: TPI and thermostats Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 3/14/96 2:37 PM Gentlemen, All gone thanks, GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 12:36:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA28530; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:28:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA28525; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:28:07 -0500 Received: from [128.84.141.205] (SENNA.MAE.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.141.205]) by postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA26726 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:25:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dhe1@postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:31:52 -0500 To: diy_efi From: dhe1@cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) Subject: Al U-bender Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To all the folks who asked about the u-bender, I'll post something after I get back from my spring break (next wednesday). I'm just trying to get out of town right now. Sorry for the delay. --dan -- Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1@cornell.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Mar 14 22:20:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA02442; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:06:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA02437; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:06:37 -0500 Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA14607; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:06:24 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:06:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199603142206.OAA14607@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: jzalesny@ix.netcom.com (JimZ -92' AWD Tsi ) Subject: Re: Al u-bends To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I would seriously like to get more info on the tubing bender you >designed for mandrel bending aluminum. Please let me know if plans >are available. I have my own mill and lathe. > >Thanks, >Gary A poor mans u-bender consists of a set of pipe benders from JC Whitney, clean fine sand, plugs for the pipes and t-clamps. On one end of pipe to be bent insert a plug and t-clamp it in. Fill other end of the pipe with sand until almost full. Insert the second plug into the open end and clamp the plug in. Bend the pipe using the pipe benders. The sand is the secret to keeping the even radius bend, it does not allow the pipe to compress. ___ _________________________________________________ ___ |___| _________________PIPE____________________________ |___| plug plug _________________________________________________ plug->|___|____________sand in pipe_________________|___|<-plug ^ ^ |____ ___| clamp clamp Works with all different size tubing. cheers JimZ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 15 00:31:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA02906; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:25:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA02901; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 19:25:53 -0500 Received: from (slip3.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.43]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11427 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:28:29 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 20:17:51 PST From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) To: DIY_EFI Subject: thermocouples Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? ----------------------------------------------- jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us john carroll From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 15 14:49:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA04326; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:40:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA04321; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:40:15 -0500 Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com ([151.116.23.138]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA11270 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:40:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from westhub (westhub.mnet.uswest.com [148.156.21.6]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA03572 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:48:29 -0700 (MST) Received: by westhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.951228) Received: from sp5-316.nts.uswest.com by cp.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA13252; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:37:39 -0700 Received: by sp5-316.nts.uswest.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA23121; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:37:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:37:40 -0700 From: scicior@cp.uswc.uswest.com (Steve Ciciora) Message-Id: <9603151437.AA23121@sp5-316.nts.uswest.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: thermocouples X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > Just because the specs say something like "output is 10mV/Deg C" dosn't mean that these devices linerize themocouples. I don't think they do. -Steven Ciciora > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? > > ----------------------------------------------- > jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us > john carroll > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 15 15:30:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA04487; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:26:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04482; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:26:28 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA207083583; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:26:24 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA261893578; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:26:18 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 08:25:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 To: orin@nr.infi.net, diy_efi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="cc:Mail" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Orin The Bosch trottle position comes in both rotations. The Weber trottle body used on the Renault is the opposite rotation of the Ford trottle body as you know. The German cars (BMW) have the trottle body switches in the other directioin. Even so I was not happy with the fit, and I prefer to sense the manifold pressure to go to enrichment. The manifold pressure switch was used on Volvo's and on late Renaults using the LU-jetronic. But I still don't know a PN or where I can get one. Nor do I know at what pressure the switch closes/opens. The trottle body injector I use for the MGB (1800cc) is a E43-AC, ~752cc/min @ 14.7lb/sqin. It's about 4 times the injector flow of the port injectors for the Renault i18 or Fuego. The MGB engine and manifold can't take the lean running condition of the design value for the L-Jetronic. It therefore idled poorly (too lean) and hesitated when accelerating. I was able to overcome all of that by loosening the spring of the air flow meter by two notches, and by increasing the fuel pressure to 17 lb/squin. The key for good idle and operation is to run at the design mixture level the engine and manifold. This means no lamda (O2) sensor. Decreasing the spring force on the air meter decreases the maximum air measuring capability (runs lean at wide open trottle), so I also toyed with the calibration of the air meter. Depending on the air meter you can increase the fuel flow by changing one of the reference resistor values in the air meter (thats the resistor that feeds the potentiometer). The last and best way is to modify the computer to put out more fuel by a fixed percent across the whole range of operation. This is a little more tricky and beyond my ability to describe here. With any of the changes above, the car ran good and idled just fine cold or hot. I never had any cold start problem with the system. It starts easily with at -10F. You might check the cold start injector circuit, and be sure that the cold start injector is designed for the fuel pressure you are using. You need a low pressure injector. You can get one from the old VW's that use trottle body injection. I really like the Electromotive unit. Did you program it, or are you using the program that comes with it. Werner --------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: L-jetronic Werner, Did you ever find out what the flow specs. are for the Ford (Bosch) injectors are??? I remember you said that you were having trouble with the system running lean on the "B"..I had the same problem when I tried your approach and never could get the thing to run as I would like. I also never overcame the cold start problems..You know, on very cold days it would idle very rough...Warm days ok, but cold days really bad. I have switched over to the Electromotive TEC II and it runs fine, although a little lean, but the system is very expensive and defeated the real purpose...A cheap replacement for the SU's or Zenith carbs...Let me know how you're making out ... Orin Hi Werner, I also had a hard time fitting a switch to the Ford throttle body and what I finally used were 2 micro switches on a bracket that I mounted where the idle air motor had been mounted. I never did like this approach. I looked into using the Bosch switch but as you know it's rotation is backwards and I never really came up with a good solution. The vacuum switch sounds like a good alternative. You never gave me the injector part number. You said you thought it was green color coded but when I talked to you, you couldn't remember. If you have time, please look it up and send it to me. If you know it's flow rate, please let me know that also. I also upped the fuel pressure to 17 or 18 PSIG and it did help a lot. You didn't say how you had overcomed the poor idle when cold problem. What have you done there?? Orin From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 15 15:58:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA04686; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:51:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04677; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:51:30 -0500 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Received: from csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA280965082; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:51:22 -0800 Received: from by csitcom2.cs.itc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.4 Openmail) id AA275415080; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:51:20 -0700 X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 08:51:14 -0700 Message-Id: To: james@brc.ubc.ca, DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Item Subject: cc:Mail Text Hi James The L-Jetronic uses an air meter with a flap. Yes it is restrictive. My original plan was to get this system going. Put in the fuel delivery system, get the injector(s) working and just prove the feasabilty. Then I was going to move up to the fancy $1800 Electromotive TEC II system. It uses a Mass Air Flow meter. Anyway the L-jetronic seems to work well enough to satisfy me, but I am still itching to add a turbo, and for that I want to control the ignition and will probably need the Electomotive system. A later Bosch system called the LH-Jetronic was digital and used a MAF meter. This was used in the '80s on Volvo up to '88. The L series Bosch systems are very nice because they are so easy to adapt. They only use the ingnition coil signal. No fancy crank sensors are needed. Anyway the problem for hot rodders are that these systems were used mainly in relatively small engines except for Jaguar, BMW and the like. And for the price of those in a junk yard, you might as well use Electromotive systems. The L-Jetronics uses only the air meter signal (air temperature and Air flow, together they give air volume), the water temperature and the ignition (rpm and crank position) to calculate Fuel. Trottle position is not used except to enrich at 2/3 trottle and to cut out the fuel above 1500 rpm when at closed trottle. This is actually very accurate and very simple. The air meter gives out a voltage that changes logorithmically with the air flow. It also has a thermistor for air temperature. To use the L-Jetronic system You will have to find a car with about the same size engine as the one you want to adapt. This is most likely to be your biggest obstacle. Of course you could run two systems, one on each side of a V8. How big an engine are you using anyway? My suggestion is that you should try to get something working, and then keep working to make it better. You can always try to get started with the Holley trottle body. Used ones are often for sale by someone who has upgraded. This way you will get the basics in place like the fuel delivery, the high pressure pump, etc. For more information get the Probst book on Bosch systems. Good Luck Werner From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Mar 15 18:00:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA05291; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:54:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05286; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:54:29 -0500 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 15 Mar 96 12:53:30 EST Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11006; Fri, 15 Mar 96 12:54:42 EST Message-Id: <9603151754.AA11006@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:56:09 +0000 Subject: Re: thermocouples Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > > > Just because the specs say something like "output is 10mV/Deg C" dosn't > mean that these devices linerize themocouples. I don't think they do. Nope. It amplifies and provides an ice reference, but doesn't do linearization. The polynomials to linearize the output of all the common thermocouples are well known and I've attached a small Pascal program I used for demonstration with the AD595 and a K thermocouple. You can use the polynomial in the controller firmware, or better yet, use this program to generate a look-up table. > > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? I may be a bit banger, but I know that mux'ing millivolt signals can be tricky. Any analog guru's out there? Program Kcouple; { AD595 outputV= (K voltage + 11uV)*247.3 K volt = outV/247.3 - 11uV K volt =4.043672e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (10.24Vref) K volt =2.9631204e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (15.00Vref) K volt =1.9754136e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (15.00Vref, 2/3 gain) EGT max = 954oC (1750oF) K thermocouple: 0 to 1370 oC +/- 0.7 oC } var x : integer; v, T : double; Begin writeln(' x K mV T oC T oF'); { NNNN NN.NNNN NNNN.NNN NNNN NNNN.NNN NNNN } for x:=0 to 2047 do begin { v:= 4.043672e-5*x - 1.1e-5;} v:= 1.9754136e-5*x - 1.1e-5; T:= 0.226584602 + v*(24152.10900 + v*(67233.4248 + v*(2210340.682 + v*(-860963914.9 + v*(4.83506e10 + v*(-1.18452e12 + v*(1.38690e13 + v*(-6.33708e13)))))))); writeln(x:4,(v*1000):8:4,T:9:3,T:5:0,((T*9/5)+32):9:3,((T*9/5)+32):5:0); end; End. --- David Parrish Hey, don't laugh. I taught myself Pascal with the original Wirth compiler. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 16 01:26:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA06618; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:12:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.zynet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA06613; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:11:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (cooper.zynet.co.uk [193.116.171.155]) by hermes.zynet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07000 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:16:51 GMT From: mike@cooper.zynet.co.uk (Mike Rigby-Jones) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Encoder Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:12:05 GMT Message-Id: <314a1270.830008@gpo.zynet.co.uk> References: <199603132352.XAA06380@freenet.msp.mn.us> In-Reply-To: <199603132352.XAA06380@freenet.msp.mn.us> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:04 GMT, you wrote: > > 1:) Turbocharger : I have already designed most the system, but for my >application efficiency not power is important. > 2:) Replace the crackshaft with a high efficiency crack. (I have one changed >the horse power from 3.5 to 3.9!!!) These are cool things smaller with larger >counterwieghts. They provide a smother ride too! > 3:) Fuel injection. Especially with a turbocharger could get a briggs in the >stratosphere as far as RPM goes. > 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low >grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would >make it nearly flame proof. > 5:) A new connecting rod. Most are made of aluminum to, and would shear with >no problem at that speed and Horse power. > 6:) Increased compression ratio. A briggs and startton has a compression >ratio of 4.7:1 max at the factory. I like 10:1 or 11:1 much better. > 7:) Change Cam profile to a design more conducive to fuel injection. >(A lot of these changes I've considered to do with my Super Mileage Vehicle) > Walla: A Briggs that runs at Å10HP, and 7-8000 RPM. All from a 3.5HP I'm >deranged, it's sick that I know so much about such a shitty old engine! > > Jim Staff > Hey its good to know that some sad people still play with these things. I had several of these engines to play with some years back. I ported one and put larger valves in and raised the compression as much as possible, also got rid of the so called 'carb' and put on one from a Honda 125 OHC. Don't know what sort of power it got but the kart it was in went pretty well!!! I think you would have a major problem getting 10:1 compression from the beast. The area needed for the valves o move up and down pretty much limits the max compression especially if you put big valves in. Stainless steel piston???? Bit heavy I would have thought? Why not graft in a crank and piston from said Honda?? ( BTW most pistons tend to be flame proof!!!!) This would solve the con rod problem as well (I have seen several of these snap even when the engine was powering a mower) The flywheel is also a little suspect for high rpms. In fact its lethal so get rid of it or at least strengthen it in some way. As for a turbo, well it'd have to be VERY small just to be turned over by a B&S let alone produce boost. I managed to get some kind of vacuum pump from a old milking machine which could be used in reverse as a pressure pump. It was a vane device and had a fair displacement so I was toying with the idea of supercharging but never really got it finished. I think that would be the way to go instead of turbos. cheers Mike RJ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 16 04:02:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA07060; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 03:49:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA07055; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:49:33 -0500 Received: from INTEL7.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.4/10.0i); Fri, 15 Mar 1996 19:40:48 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 19:49:23 PST From: "Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544" Message-Id: <9603160349.utk22740@INTEL7.intel.com> X-To: HERMES::"diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: BS ENGINES To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low >>grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would >>make it nearly flame proof. > >Stainless steel piston???? Bit heavy I would have thought? Why not >graft in a crank and piston from said Honda?? ( BTW most pistons tend >to be flame proof!!!!) This would solve the con rod problem as well >(I have seen several of these snap even when the engine was powering a >mower) Aluminum pistons being flame proof?! Aluminum melts at around 1100F (used to work in an aluminum foundry). Flame temp inside an IC engine is around 1600F. At 1600F, aluminum is a really pretty BRIGHT orange liquid! The only thing that saves the piston is the limited time that the fuel/air is burning (relative to the total time) and the heat transfer to the cylinder. If you increase the amount of energy being generated in the combustion chamber (say by turbocharging or just increasing the breathing of the engine) enough, the piston will not be able to dump the extra energy to the cylinder and bam, you melt a nice hole in the piston. BTW, molten aluminum is not the best lube in the world! All in all, aluminum is not the best material for a piston. Unfortunately, a really great material (Carbon/Carbon Composites) costs about fifty times as much! Maybe someday we will all have pistons that CANNOT melt. Clint ccorbin@intel7.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Mar 16 20:53:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA08545; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:33:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linux.debug.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA08540; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:32:47 -0500 Received: from debug.UUCP (debug@localhost) by linux.debug.ab.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id NAA07474 for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:16:20 -0700 Received: by debug.cuc.ab.ca (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.19) id ; Sat, 16 Mar 96 13:26 MST Received: by dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (qqmail/QNX) ; Sat, 16 Mar 96 13:05:08 EDT Message-Id: <9602162005.AA19106@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: thermocouples To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 13:05:05 MDT From: Darrell Norquay In-Reply-To: ; from "john carroll" at Mar 13, 96 8:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? > John: It's pretty difficult to multiplex the direct signals from thermocouples. Using an electronic approach, any type of analog multiplexer usually has a relatively high series resistance (compared to the t'couple) and introduces a lot of error. A mechanical approach (using relays) is better in some respects, but you still get a thermocouple effect from the metal in the contacts, as well as resistance, and it's slow. Mercury wetted reed relays may work, I've never tried this. In any case, you'd have to do the cold junction comp before the MUX anyway. A better approach would be to use some sort of a simple preamp circuit to bring the output of each thermocouple up to a more manageable level, and buffer the thermocouple output with a low impedence driver. You could then use a standard multiplexer chip and a final gain/offset stage to get a calibrated output. The Analog Devices AD594 has no linearization of the TC input. You can use some external components to improve the linearity, but a type K is reasonably linear anyway, (better than other TC types) and for this application you don't really care if the temp is 1294.8 deg or 1298.4 deg, a few degrees one way or the other isn't going to make a difference. Analog Devices has a relatively new chip, P/N AC1226, which does the cold junction comp, buffers the signal, and gives an output of 10 mV per degree C. It also has some rudimentary linearization built in, it's pretty general but does improve the linearity significantly. The device has a built in temperature sensor, and is extremely low power to minimze self heating, you would physically mount it right on your isothermal block where TC leads meets copper wire. I don't know the cost on these, but it should be reasonable. If you use one per TC, and then MUX these together into an A2D or display device of some kind, you should be able to come up with a relatively low cost system with good accuracy. If you don't feel up to building one, almost all manufacturers of PC A2D converter boards (National Instruments, Strawberry Tree, Burr Brown, etc.) have an optional multi-channel signal conditioner / terminal board that have cold junction comp and preamps built in. These usually run in the $150-$300 range, a bit dear but saves a lot of work, especially if you only need one. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 18 18:27:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA12703; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:03:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12698; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:03:45 -0500 Received: by ns1.eds.com (hello) id NAA03062; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:03:44 -0500 Received: by nnsa.eds.com (hello) id NAA13302; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:03:14 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904 by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA24852; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:03:17 -0500 Received: from ctlp0161.MPG.GMPT.GMEDS.COM ([130.172.65.166]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA154362155; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:02:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 20:43:09 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: BS ENGINES To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Clint Corbin wrote: >Aluminum pistons being flame proof?! Aluminum melts at around 1100F (used to >work in an aluminum foundry). Flame temp inside an IC engine is around 1600F. >[snip] >If you increase the amount of energy being generated in the combustion chamber >(say by turbocharging or just increasing the breathing of the engine) enough, >the piston will not be able to dump the extra energy to the cylinder and bam, >you melt a nice hole in the piston. >[snip] >All in all, aluminum is not the best material for a piston. Geez, Clint, that's an awfully harsh statement considering aluminum is the preferred material for production and many racing pistons these days, *including* turbocharged and supercharged engines. Aluminum being a more expensive material than steel, there must be a good reason that the OEMs use it. Actually, _exhaust gas temperature_ is around 1600F, flame temp in the combustion chamber is more like 3000F. Iron and steel are already starting to get rather weak around 1600F; 3000F will melt either. So piston durability must be a more complicated issue than simply one of material selection. As you allude, heat transfer is very important. Aluminum is a nice material from that standpoint, much nicer than steel. It's not clear to me that simply redoing the same aluminum design in steel will improve durability - strength at the same temperature goes up, but the piston temperature goes up because it can't transfer heat as quickly through itself to the walls, wrist pin, oil, intake air, etc., plus you have much greater stresses from the greater mass you are throwing around. Obviously, I'm not a piston designer. I have heard of people having lots of success with aluminum pistons and heads that use a (ceramic) thermal barrier coating. Maybe this would be a good solution to the original question (which I missed). Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 18 20:55:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA13776; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:52:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13771; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:52:01 -0500 From: ducharme@eiss1.psf.ge.com Received: from franklin.vf.mmc.com (franklin.VF.GE.COM [166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10006 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from orrqms2.psf.ge.com (orrqms2.PSF.GE.COM [166.16.144.2]) by franklin.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA21238 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from eiss1.psf.ge.com (orrqms4.PSF.GE.COM) by orrqms2.psf.ge.com (4.1/MMC Sun server N-3.4) id AA28755; Mon, 18 Mar 96 15:57:09 EST Received: by eiss1.psf.ge.com (4.1/GEA Sun client 1.19) id AA29285; Mon, 18 Mar 96 15:56:31 EST Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 15:56:31 EST Message-Id: <9603182056.AA29285@eiss1.psf.ge.com> To: diy_efi Subject: RE BS ENGINES Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Lansinger wrote: > I have heard of people having lots of success with aluminum pistons and heads > that use a > (ceramic) thermal barrier coating. Maybe this would be a good solution to the> original > question (which I missed). I like it - ceramic pistons/cylinders for B&S engines... >From what I have seen, the limiting factor on the B&S as far as HP production is concerned is the basic design (L-head, small valves, limited heat rejection capacity from the fin area, no pressure lubrication to cool the piston crown). You can put bigger valves in, enlarge the ports, regrind the cam lobes, and add a larger carburetor(throttle body) but the head design impedes bumping up the compression ratio from its lowly value, and without improved cooling, the engine will self-destruct from seizing if the crank or connecting rod doesn't break first. But I still think the're a great engine. My project engine was purchased in 1970 when I graduated from high school, cut acres of grass for many years until the mower deck rusted away, was lucky if it saw an annual oil change, and when I dissassembled it last fall before starting my senior project, I couldn't find a ridge at the top of the cylinder! The aluminum bore still had crosshatch marks in places and, other than exterior rust, corrosion and flaked paint, showed little signs of such abuse. For its intended purpose, that's hard to argue with. What was the original question? P.S. Ed - Great article in Circuit Cellar Ink. It helped me greatly. Cliff Ducharme From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 18 20:55:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA13767; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:49:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13762; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:49:15 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA23154 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:47:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199603182047.AA23154@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:47:49 -0500 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:47:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:46:45 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: PIstons X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 509 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Ed Lansinger wrote "Aluminum being a more expensive material than steel, there must be a good reason that the OEMs use it." 1) It's light and won't yank the crankpins off the crank at 6000rpm. 2) It's much easier(read cheaper) to machine than steel. 3) You were correct about the rest, except than combustion temps can reach upwards of 4400 F(transient, but hot). Not bad for a calibrator; with some training, you be a decent piston engineer. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Mar 18 23:55:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/9404