From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jun 1 10:21:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id KAA10531; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:10:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA10521; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:10:07 -0400 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:10:07 -0400 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199606011010.GAA10521@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". The archives can also be ftp'd from ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/pub. Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/332_index.html Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jun 2 17:27:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA13617; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:05:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA13612; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:05:41 -0400 Received: from van-as-08a11.direct.ca ([204.174.249.155]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <268408-239>; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 09:59:19 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:17:45 -0700 To: DIY_EFI From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: General Motors ECM Message-Id: <96Jun2.095919-0700pdt.268408-239+137@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello everyone: Just wondering if anyone else is working on reverse engineering gm ECM. I have so far decripted spark timing, IAC, prom id, fan control and tcc. I am wondering if anyone else has decripted info on fuel control. I am guessing WOT is based on base PW modified by rpm vs VE chart with compensation for battery volt and temp. Still there are a great deal of lookup tables. CL also appears to be modified by block learn tables. Also does anyone have info on transient enrichment done by tps and map. I have prom dumps for 85 corvette, 87 iroc, 92 gm truck if anyone needs em. If any one has other prom dumps would appreciate them. In addition my HCll package has a hard time decripting 6801 code Does anyone know where a 01 dissembler can be found. Yess I could spend a day writing it in basic but. If anyone wants to help they can email me directly if they want. Thanks everyone Peter: pfenske@direct.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 02:47:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA14628; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:31:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA14623; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:31:10 -0400 Received: from (arthurok@chi-il4-07.ix.netcom.com [199.35.203.135]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21525 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:30:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:30:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199606030230.TAA21525@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: General Motors ECM To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu how about the binary code for a 1988 buick regal both speed density and mass airflow i think the car uses a 68hc11 micro ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 02:57:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA14663; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:50:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from alpha2.curtin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA14658; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:50:49 -0400 Received: from alpha2.curtin.edu.au by alpha2.curtin.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-6 #7809) id <01I5GWSFZWZ4IRNF7T@alpha2.curtin.edu.au> for diy_efi@Coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 03 Jun 1996 10:52:21 +0000 (WST) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 10:52:21 +0000 (WST) From: Rob Skala Subject: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine To: diy_efi Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, It's time for me to ask for some advice and help. I recently obatined a replacement EFI controller for my 12A turbo rotary. I think its an L-Jetronic system from what I can work out. Anyway I need some help to identify some of the connections, I've managed to work most of them out using a copy of the wiring diagram from a Japanese workshop manual, but several of them still elude me...... I've included a list of the pins on the two connectors below. Hopefully someone out there may be able to help me out !!!! PIN ID: Connection PIN ID: Connection +B Power thru ign switch IGN ? (possibly coil ??) E2 Earth connection E1 Earth Connection Vc Airflow sensor Vs Airflow sensor Vb Airflow sensor Ox Oxygen sensor STA Starter switch Rv TPS Tau ??????? #10 Injector #1 Tl TPS #20 Injector #2 THA Air temp sensor E01 Ground Connection THW Coolant Temp sensor E02 Ground Connection +BF +12V for injectors Second Connector: TH ??????? IDL ??????? VF ??????? I think these connections are something to do PW ??????? with the emmission control system T ??????? LLD ??????? FC1 ??????? FC2 ??????? As you can see I've got most of them, it just the Tau and IGN pins. Anyone have any ideas ???? Thanks for all your help in advance...... Regards, Rob Robert D Skala Materials Research Group School of Physical Science Curtin University of Technology GPO Box U1987 Perth 6001 WESTERN AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 9 351 2331 Fax: +61 9 351 2377 email: skala_rd@cc.curtin.edu.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 04:53:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id EAA14988; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 04:46:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA14983; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 00:46:31 -0400 Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:45:12 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:46:00 +1000 To: diy_efi From: lambs@HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Subject: Re: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine Cc: rskalard@alpha2.curtin.EDU.AU Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > +B Power thru ign switch IGN ? (possibly coil ??) >As you can see I've got most of them, it just the Tau and IGN pins. >Anyone have any ideas ???? IGN almost certainly goes to the -ve terminal of the coil to provide the timing 'pulses' for the ECU. Sorry, can't help with the other. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 06:23:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA15272; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:15:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA15267; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:14:54 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma015067; Mon Jun 3 16:14:16 1996 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma013588; Mon Jun 3 16:13:58 1996 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.OZ.AU [137.147.20.34]) by cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04266 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:13:57 +1000 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA04656 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:13:55 +1000 (EST) From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199606030613.QAA04656@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:13:54 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Rob Skala" at Jun 3, 96 10:52:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > It's time for me to ask for some advice and help. I recently obatined a > replacement EFI controller for my 12A turbo rotary. I think its an > L-Jetronic system from what I can work out. I think they were L jet based, made by Nippon Denso. The 'Gregorys' fixing EFI books have wiring diagrams in them, many of the connections have the same name as in your list, so maybe a 626 turbo might have the same computer? http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124476/vehicles/3T-GTEfi.html might be able to shed some light on some of the connections (this is a toyota 1.8l injected turbo computer) > PIN ID: Connection PIN ID: Connection > +B Power thru ign switch IGN ? (possibly coil ??) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep. > E2 Earth connection E1 Earth Connection ^^^^^ for air flow meter ^^^^^ Main computer earth > Tau ??????? #10 Injector #1 ^^^^^^^ (GUESSING.. Maybe a boost switch?) > THW Coolant Temp sensor E02 Ground Connection ^^^^^^ return for injectors. > Second Connector: > > IDL ??????? ^^^^^^^ Idle contacts in throttle position switch > VF ??????? ^^^^^^^ This is supposedly a "Test socket" (What it's function is unknown, as these are analog computers - maybe an injector on-time control voltage) It seems that a lot of the connectors on the ND Ljet are similar (I have a 2 litre 929 Ljet unit with a lot of what you have listed). The turbo units with trapdoor sensors don't seem to need a MAP input, but the 3TGTEU has two pressure switches (one for boost enrichment, the other for boost limiting) Cheers, Craig. pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 06:53:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA15333; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:45:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA15328; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:45:57 -0400 Received: from van-as-10a16.direct.ca ([204.174.245.64]) by orb.direct.ca with SMTP id <28657-23770>; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:39:22 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:57:49 -0700 To: diy_efi From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: Re 2: General Motors ECM Message-Id: <96Jun2.233922-0700pdt.28657-23770+16@orb.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >how about the binary code for a 1988 buick regal both speed >density and mass airflow i think the car uses a 68hc11 micro ? >Hi >Would be an interesting look. Sure. Part of my initial look >was to spy on the GNs. Know most of the old code. But the 88 >was a P4 ecm(hc11 variant). Probably a 3.8 with sequential. >Interesting. >Tnx Peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 07:36:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA15414; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:28:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uctmail.uct.ac.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA15409; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 03:28:36 -0400 Received: by uctmail.uct.ac.za (Smail3.1.29.1 #22) id m0uQU3w-0000KUC; Mon, 3 Jun 96 09:28 SAT Message-Id: Received: by uctmail.uct.ac.za (Mort 2.15) id 476 from PHYSIO; Mon Jun 3 09:28:28 1996 From: "SANDY" To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:01:47 UTC-2 Subject: Ignition systems X-Confirm-Reading-To: sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I was reading a book on tuning by A Graham Bell (no, not the inventor of the telephone). He seems to highly recommend the Scintilla Vertex magneto ignition system. Apparently it was used in airplane engines in the 1950s. It was the first I'd heard about it. Does anyone have any experience of the system? This guy seems to think it's better than the electronic systems??? But then he also semms to think carbs are better than efi....... Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan@physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 08:59:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id IAA15559; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:52:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA15554; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 04:52:00 -0400 Received: from (arthurok@chi-il7-17.ix.netcom.com [204.32.166.49]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA18074 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 01:51:58 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 01:51:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199606030851.BAA18074@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: arthurok@ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Subject: Re: Ignition systems To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu bendix is scintilla "allied signal" and versions of that magneto are still being used in present day light air craft engines "lycoming " and "continental most aircraft use 2 mags and 2 plugs per cylinder. what do you think lawnmower type ignition systems are just permanent magnet magnetos . the newer ones just use solid state stuff to get rid of the points and condenser. the faa likes it because it dosent require a working electrical system to keep the engine running. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 12:38:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA15855; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:27:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15850; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:27:17 -0400 Received: from (tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com [199.183.198.168]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA22001 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:27:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:27:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199606031227.FAA22001@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: SPMullen@ix.netcom.com (Stephen Mullen ) Subject: Re: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu You wrote: Rob; Since I have a 12A Turbo Rotary, an copy of the shop manuals, and a friendly, knowledgable mechanic, I will see if the signals you listed can be identified. It might take a day or so. A company by the name of RACING BEAT used to be in the Los Angles, California area. These people were MAZDA performance specialists. They provided several modifications that could be used on the EFI system. If they are still around and if you can contact them, it might be quite useful. Try looking in US based auto magazines (Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc.) Steve Mullen PO Box 1085 Oldsmar, FL., USA 34677 (813) 855-3877 SPMullen@ix.netcom.com > > > >Hi All, > >It's time for me to ask for some advice and help. I recently obatined a >replacement EFI controller for my 12A turbo rotary. I think its an >L-Jetronic system from what I can work out. Anyway I need some help to >identify some of the connections, I've managed to work most of them out >using a copy of the wiring diagram from a Japanese workshop manual, but >several of them still elude me...... I've included a list of the pins on >the two connectors below. Hopefully someone out there may be able to help >me out !!!! > >PIN ID: Connection PIN ID: Connection > +B Power thru ign switch IGN ? (possibly coil ??) > E2 Earth connection E1 Earth Connection > Vc Airflow sensor Vs Airflow sensor > Vb Airflow sensor Ox Oxygen sensor > STA Starter switch Rv TPS > Tau ??????? #10 Injector #1 > Tl TPS #20 Injector #2 > THA Air temp sensor E01 Ground Connection > THW Coolant Temp sensor E02 Ground Connection > +BF +12V for injectors > >Second Connector: > >TH ??????? >IDL ??????? >VF ??????? I think these connections are something to do >PW ??????? with the emmission control system >T ??????? >LLD ??????? >FC1 ??????? >FC2 ??????? > >As you can see I've got most of them, it just the Tau and IGN pins. >Anyone have any ideas ???? > >Thanks for all your help in advance...... > >Regards, > >Rob > > > >Robert D Skala >Materials Research Group >School of Physical Science >Curtin University of Technology >GPO Box U1987 >Perth 6001 >WESTERN AUSTRALIA >Telephone: +61 9 351 2331 >Fax: +61 9 351 2377 >email: skala_rd@cc.curtin.edu.au > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 12:46:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA15879; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:36:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15874; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:36:41 -0400 Received: from (tam-fl2-03.ix.netcom.com [199.183.198.67]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA10213 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:36:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:36:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199606031236.FAA10213@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: SPMullen@ix.netcom.com (Stephen Mullen ) Subject: Re: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Rob: Sorry I had a case of brain fade. (sorta like brake fade, only worse). I've got a 13B, but I look anyway. On a side note: Racing Beat appears to still be around, no contact address yet. Steve (:>)?? Mullen ?!$$#@ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 14:44:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA16346; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:25:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from zinc.qualcomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA16339; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:25:05 -0400 Received: from expos (expos.qualcomm.com [129.46.246.60]) by zinc.qualcomm.com (8.7.5/1.2d/8.7.2/1.7.1) with SMTP id HAA20480 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960603072525.37e7d452@mage.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: tfaugno@mage.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Jake Kohl (by way of Digital Boy ) Subject: Rotary performance specialists. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu This is in response to a query on the "No Rotor, No Motor" page. It's in Yahoo if you want to browse it. Terry Terry, In order to get 250 HP in your Porsche, your best bet would be a V8. However, I would imagine that your engine space is limited. There a numerous aftermarket parts for the rotaries. Rotary power increases do not come quite as inexpensively as for a V8 but the smoothness and well, . . . the novelty of it would be worth it! Following this message are the names/address/phone's of several Mazda rotary performance parts suppliers. Good luck, and let me know what you conjure up! Rotorhead Cartech Performance Systems performance parts 12/92 11212 Goodnight Ln. #200R Dallas, Texas 75229 512-308-8464 Hayes Rotary Engineering engines 12/92 9135 Willows Road Redmond WA 98052 206-881-3604 Mazdatrix performance parts 12/92 2730 Gundry Ave turbos & repair Signal Hill, CA 90806 rotary Miata swap 213-426-7960 714-426-4460 Racing Beat performance parts 12/92 1291 Hancock St. catalog $8.00 Anaheim, CA 92807 714-779-8677 Rotary Concepts performance parts 12/92 Lake Cities Rotary engines North 2904 Monroe Str. Spokane, Wa. 99205 509-483-0569 Rotary Engineering performance parts 12/92 4869 McGrath St. catalog $7.00 Ventura, CA 93003 805-658-9393 Pettit Racing performance parts 12/92 1578 N. West 23th Avenue Fort Lauderdale, FL 33311 305-735-0100 -- -------------------------------------------------------- /^\ /( )\ HAPPY ROTORING! rotorhead@utc.campus.mci.net /_____\ -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jun 3 22:43:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA17977; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:19:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17972; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:19:01 -0400 From: dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com Received: from ptdcs2.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.4/10.0i); Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:40:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199606031540.IAA14720@hermes.intel.com> Received: from ptdi66 (ptdi66.ra.intel.com) by ptdcs2.intel.com with SMTP id AA29543 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:29:11 -0700 dender: dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com dessage-Id: <31B304C7.2F1C@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com> date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:29:11 -0700 drom: "David W. Taylor" drganization: Intel d-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; AIX 2) dime-Version: 1.0 do: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu dubject: Oxygen sensor....4 Wire... dontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii dontent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu d I'm just learning about this so bear with me if this is too basic. I was tracing out the wiring on my Jeep wrangler, and found the O2 sensor has 4 wires, I was aware of the three and 1 wire config, But what does the 4 wire do differently?? I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... Any sugestion please speak out :) -- David Taylor dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com Ph(503) 613-8132 Portland OR. My opinions are mine ,, and nobody elses. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 00:13:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA06416; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:04:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA06411; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 20:04:08 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA27044; Tue, 4 Jun 96 06:51:34 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA833901209 Tue, 04 Jun 96 08:13:29 Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 08:13:29 Message-Id: <9605048339.AA833901209@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Try giving the guys at Rotomotion a call, they are usually pretty friendly and they know their stuff when it comes to Rotaries. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: L-Jetronic EFI for Mazda Rotary Engine Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/3/96 11:55 AM Hi All, It's time for me to ask for some advice and help. I recently obatined a replacement EFI controller for my 12A turbo rotary. I think its an L-Jetronic system from what I can work out. Anyway I need some help to identify some of the connections, I've managed to work most of them out using a copy of the wiring diagram from a Japanese workshop manual, but several of them still elude me...... I've included a list of the pins on the two connectors below. Hopefully someone out there may be able to help me out !!!! Robert D Skala Materials Research Group School of Physical Science Curtin University of Technology GPO Box U1987 Perth 6001 WESTERN AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 9 351 2331 Fax: +61 9 351 2377 email: skala_rd@cc.curtin.edu.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 00:53:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id AAA06537; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:45:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA06530; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 20:45:06 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id KAA08422 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:45:03 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA04854; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:39:23 +0800 Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA04854; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:39:23 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00127; Tue, 4 Jun 96 08:32:41 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9606041232.AA00127@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:32:20 est To: diy_efi Subject: MAF Conversions Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu 'Everyone' talks about MAF conversions of existing EFI systems but can anyone answer me a few questions about the whole exercise? 1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor don't? (or what do people think it offers?, ie what are the main reasons for the conversion?) 2 - are analogue (voltage) output devices used more commonly than frequency output? 3 - how are they normally sampled in these conversions, synchronously at a determined crank angle, synchronously at any angle at all, or asynchronously? 4 - how do you know that the airflow you're measuring is actually there? Do people just slap them on and hope, or is some science applied to make sure inlet manifold resonances are not upsetting the signal? 5 - How about reverse flow? Is this any concern in the average conversion? 6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? Thanks for your replies in advance Andrew Rabbitt Orbital Engine Company From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 03:42:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA06895; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 03:38:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA06890; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:38:11 -0400 Received: from van-as-05c16.direct.ca ([204.174.249.48]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <268497-18603>; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 20:31:20 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 19:49:21 -0700 To: diy_efi From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: Re: MAF Conversions Message-Id: <96Jun3.203120-0700pdt.268497-18603+272@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >'Everyone' talks about MAF conversions of existing EFI systems but can >anyone answer me a few questions about the whole exercise? > >1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor > >>MAF directly measures Air Mass. Fueling is simply based on AF ratio >>desired not extensive engine mapping. In other words a change in >>engine parms does not require a recalibration within limits. >2 - are analogue (voltage) output devices used more commonly than >frequency output? > >>FM is prob less susceptible to connect errors. Other than that. > >3 - how are they normally sampled in these conversions, synchronously >at a determined crank angle, synchronously at any angle at all, or >asynchronously? > >>MAF is continuous. Just like MAT or CTC. > >4 - how do you know that the airflow you're measuring is actually >there? Do people just slap them on and hope, or is some science >applied to make sure inlet manifold resonances are not upsetting the >signal? > >>The Bosch MAF uses screens to generate laminar air flow with >>temp corrections. > >5 - How about reverse flow? Is this any concern in the average >conversion? > >6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? > >>Usually taken care of in VE corrector. > >Thanks for your replies in advance > >Andrew Rabbitt >Orbital Engine Company > >Update from Peter 85 coupe: Hi > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 07:22:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id HAA07823; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:15:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA07818; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 03:15:01 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id RAA05713 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:14:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA17230; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:54:38 +0800 Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA17230; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:54:38 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AE00098; Tue, 4 Jun 96 14:48:33 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9606041848.AE00098@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:48:14 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: MAF Conversions Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: (peter paul fenske) pfenske@direct.ca:smtp Date: 3/06/96 19:49 >1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor > >>MAF directly measures Air Mass. Fueling is simply based on AF ratio >>desired not extensive engine mapping. In other words a change in >>engine parms does not require a recalibration within limits. But you can calculate Mass Airflow from manifold temp, air density and engine speed. Why is this so inferior? > >>MAF is continuous. Just like MAT or CTC. > What do you mean by continuous? Most ECU's are digital and require some form of ADC, therefore you have to decide where (time-wise) to sample the sensor output. >6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? > >>Usually taken care of in VE corrector. > VE? Volumetric Efficiency? What sort of corrector/algorithm? re: airflow fluctuations, I've data from a 1.8l 4-cyl that I'm working on that at one speed-load point has airflow varying from 20g/s to 70g/s at twice crank speed! This would not be uncommon. How have people overcome this in MAF conversions? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 18:35:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id SAA09952; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:26:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09947; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:26:30 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 4 Jun 96 12:46:26 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 4 Jun 96 12:40:39 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Tue, 4 Jun 96 12:40:34 CDT Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 12:40:30 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: MAF Conversions Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Wrote: | | 'Everyone' talks about MAF conversions of existing EFI systems but can | anyone answer me a few questions about the whole exercise? | | 1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor | don't? (or what do people think it offers?, ie what are the main | reasons for the conversion?) MAF adapts better to engine mods. SD systems use a pre-calculated volumetric efficiency for your engine, while a MAF system actually measures the air entering the system. An SD system can compensate somewhat for changes like headers or a new intake, but only when it is in closed loop mode. Someone else asked: | But you can calculate Mass Airflow from manifold temp, air density and | engine speed. Why is this so inferior? The engine speed part is the limitation. If you make an engine mod that increases your rev limit, or changes your VE at any rpm, you have to recalibrate the look-up table. A MAF based system would just measure the increased flow. Closed loop operation will see a lean condition after these mods, and adjust accordingly, but that won't help your WOT, when the lookup table is used by itself. | | 2 - are analogue (voltage) output devices used more commonly than | frequency output? | | 3 - how are they normally sampled in these conversions, synchronously | at a determined crank angle, synchronously at any angle at all, or | asynchronously? | | 4 - how do you know that the airflow you're measuring is actually | there? Do people just slap them on and hope, or is some science | applied to make sure inlet manifold resonances are not upsetting the | signal? | | 6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? I think usually they are put far enough upstream that they don't see any intake effects. Isn't that one purpose of the plenum? Some of the Ford people here had talked about modeling the intake using differential equations or something, but that seems a little complex for a DIY project. At least, it is for *my* DIY project. Can anyone here recommend books about control system theory? Books aimed at the experimenter, that is, not textbooks. I had a controls class once, I won't mention what my grade was. Let's just say that I barely didn't have to repeat it. Surely some has written an easier-to-understand book on the topic. | | Andrew Rabbitt | Orbital Engine Company | | | | --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 22:30:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA11240; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:12:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA11235; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:12:55 -0400 Received: from van-as-09c05.direct.ca ([204.174.245.37]) by orb.direct.ca with SMTP id <28835-23784>; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:06:25 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:24:22 -0700 To: diy_efi From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: re #3: MAF Conversions Message-Id: <96Jun4.150625-0700pdt.28835-23784+523@orb.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor >> >>>MAF directly measures Air Mass. Fueling is simply based on AF ratio >>>desired not extensive engine mapping. In other words a change in >>>engine parms does not require a recalibration within limits. > >But you can calculate Mass Airflow from manifold temp, air density and >engine speed. Why is this so inferior? > >>N = PV / RT is the map calculation. The fact is even using lookup >>and base pulse fueling many adjustments are required. Digital systems >>are not continuous but discrete. Thus while theoretically you could >>have map work perfectly it requires a great deal of uP HP. As for >>responding to changes, speed density is based on a load percentage >>as related to manifold pressure. WOT has the highest pressure, idle >>the lowest and fueling is based on where the engine is. IE base pulse >>is modified by %load. It is this calculation that gets mucked up >>when you change engine cam. With a lower vacume ,higher pressure PW >>increases which results in too rich a mix. Thus the lookup table or >>slope and base of the %load has to be changed when engine parms change. >> >>>MAF is continuous. Just like MAT or CTC. >> >What do you mean by continuous? Most ECU's are digital and require >some form of ADC, therefore you have to decide where (time-wise) to >sample the sensor output. > >>Guess its late. Oh well. More specifically response time is the key. >>Mass airflow devices are either vanes or hot wire. These devices respond >>relatively slowly to fluctuations and will average the airflow. >> >>6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? >> >>>Usually taken care of in PE corrector. sori not ve in maf. >> >VE? Volumetric Efficiency? What sort of corrector/algorithm? > >>VE tables are part of the speed density system. The base pulse >>gets modified by a value in a lookup table indexed to RPM. >>In a MAF system there is an enrichment table. This allows some >>variance in A/F ratio with changes in RPM. > >re: airflow fluctuations, I've data from a 1.8l 4-cyl that I'm working >on that at one speed-load point has airflow varying from 20g/s to >70g/s at twice crank speed! This would not be uncommon. How have >people overcome this in MAF conversions? > >>Once again instantaneous vs average airflow. You are interested in >>the average airflow albeit over a short time period. >>As for reversion, ram tubes, runners whatever usually run from the port >>to a plenum. The throttle body feeds the plenum and the MAF feeds the >>throttle body. Thus the MAF is both far removed from the valve and >>plenum airflow tends to average individual cylinders. If you are worried >>about manifold pulsing look at the output of a MAP sensor sometime. >>The AD data from a MAP has a first or second order digital filter in >>software usually. > >Anyways if you want SAMS has a good book out on engine controls. In addition >there are many SAE papers on the subject. >>BEEN A PlEASURE: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jun 4 23:53:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id XAA11467; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:48:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA11462; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:48:50 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.7.5.1+DND/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26429 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <21048542@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 04 Jun 96 19:48:51 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: re: MAF Conversions To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --- You wrote: I had a controls class once --- end of quoted material --- My roommate had one thrice. I'm waitng for my grade... Cheers From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 01:07:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA11654; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:03:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA11649; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:03:37 -0400 Received: (ukentm01@localhost) by mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (MCL.UCSB.EDU-HPUX-1.0-b) id SAA11687; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:03:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:03:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Kent To: diy_efi Subject: MAF vs MAP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu The biggest reason to go to a MAF system is simply its flexibility. One can make numerious changes to a motor, dramatically altering it's breathing abilities and still run quite well. Change the characteristic of a speed-density motor beyond it's adaptive abilities and risk loosing the motor to lean conditions etc. Talking with a calibrator from Ford, he mentioned numerious problems with the MAF system, including non-linear output from the meter, reversion (backflow), leaks down stream, and contamination. All in all though it was a much better system than the speed-density they used to run since it allowed the EEC-IV to adapt better to the widely varying motor's coming out of the factory. MK From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 02:11:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA11924; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 02:06:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA11915; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:06:05 -0400 From: FIScot@aol.com Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA20834 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:06:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:06:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960604220604_318749460@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF Conversions Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 96-06-03 21:13:36 EDT, you write: >'Everyone' talks about MAF conversions of existing EFI systems but can >anyone answer me a few questions about the whole exercise? >1- what does a MAF sensor offer that a MAP and inlet air temp sensor >don't? (or what do people think it offers?, ie what are the main >reasons for the conversion?) I am not sure of the conversions you are talking about, but the MAF is a much more accurate way to measure airflow. The MAP sensor equipped engine relies on a VE table, temp sensors and the MAP to *calculate* airflow. It can work quite well, and the MAP sensor has the advantage of being much cheaper than a MAF sensor. But the MAF is a better way. If an engine modification alters the VE of the engine, the VE table in the ECM is now incorrect. The MAF really doesn't care about VE, it just measures airflow. >2 - are analogue (voltage) output devices used more commonly than >frequency output? I have no idea which is used more. The freq type may have some advantages. >3 - how are they normally sampled in these conversions, synchronously >at a determined crank angle, synchronously at any angle at all, or >asynchronously? Good question. The injected fuel quantity (indicated by injector PW) for a cylinder should be matched to the air that the cylinder took in, and at the desired AFR. If one measured the number of freq style MAF pulses between spark reference pulses, you would know the amount of air taken in per ref pulse, which would then be the amount of air for one cylinder.. One might also use a multi-toothed crank wheel, and measure the amount of wheel travel against MAF pulses. In using a DC type MAF, I guess a running average might give you an idea of the airflow. >4 - how do you know that the airflow you're measuring is actually >there? Do people just slap them on and hope, or is some science >applied to make sure inlet manifold resonances are not upsetting the >signal? I have no idea there. >5 - How about reverse flow? Is this any concern in the average >conversion? The MAF can measure airflow both ways. It may not be linear in the reverse direction though. This may be a problem if you use a cam with a lot of overlap that causes reversionary pulses. >6 - what kind of manifold filling compensation do people use? I guess you are refering to transients? By monitoring the TPS, you could cover those by adjusting fuel to suit the TPS delta. The MAF could also be monitored for a delta, indicating the need for more fuel. Scot Sealander FIScot@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 03:38:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA12213; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:25:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA12208; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:25:12 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.7.5.1+DND/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01199 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <21052976@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 04 Jun 96 23:25:13 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --- Michael Kent wrote: The biggest reason to go to a MAF system is simply its flexibility. One can make numerious changes to a motor, dramatically altering it's breathing abilities and still run quite well. Change the characteristic of a speed-density motor beyond it's adaptive abilities and risk loosing the motor to lean conditions etc. Talking with a calibrator from Ford, he mentioned numerious problems with the MAF system, including non-linear output from the meter, reversion (backflow), leaks down stream, and contamination. All in all though it was a much better system than the speed-density they used to run since it allowed the EEC-IV to adapt better to the widely varying motor's coming out of the factory. MK --- end of quoted material --- Correct me if I'm wrong, but both GM and Ford "MAF" systems still run a MAP sensor to deal with situations that the MAF can't handle (transients, I presume). Jeff Giberstein Dartmouth Formula Racing From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 04:05:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id DAA12274; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:52:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA12269; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:52:43 -0400 Received: from localhost by saul2.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA20132; Tue, 4 Jun 96 20:52:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "S. McManus" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > (backflow), leaks down stream, and contamination. All in all though [MAF] > was a much better system than the speed-density they used to run since it > allowed the EEC-IV to adapt better to the widely varying motor's coming > out of the factory. > > MK > Maybe I'm confused or jumping to conclusions here, but is this implying that the quality control from the Blue Oval factory is so bad that the maps for a SD system would have to be individually tailored to EACH car coming from the factory to keep A/F correct? Thus, a MAF system was needed to make up for manufacturing tolerences? Ed H, any insight? Sean McManus University of Washington Formula SAE From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 05:24:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id FAA12617; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 05:09:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA12612; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:09:36 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz) by stimpy.fp.co.nz with SMTP id AA25050 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:09:13 +1200 Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA25885; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:09:29 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 5 Jun 96 17:10:37 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.21); 5 Jun 96 17:10:27 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:10:24 +1200 Subject: How about no MAF or MAP? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.32) Message-Id: <20BEB20FBB@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu My pet project at the moment, is a EFI (& Elec. Ign.) system for my Datsun 510 club race car. I've taken one look at your average flap type mass airflow sensor (280ZX), and decided that 1) It will severly restrict air flow 2) The plumbing problems are a real hassle (same applies to hot wire types) 3) The extra plumbing makes the second intake harmonic unusable. Since I'm using twin dellortos as the throttle bodies, there is no plenum chamber to take a stable manifold vaccum reading off. So MAP is out. I've decided therefore to use a throttle position vs. engine speed calculation. A map based lookup is a problem, because it is hard to set while driving(!), and resolution is limited due to ROM space. The solution I have used is to solve two simultaneous equations to find the air flow: AirFlow = M.A.Pressure * VE(RPM) * RPM { Just like in a MAP system } & AirFlow = CriticalFlow(Throttle Pos) * compressible gas function(M.A.Pressure) I have no false hope about getting emissions quality control from this scheme, but: 1) Since New Zealand is a clean green country , we don't have such silly pollution laws (yet :-). 2) It's (mostly) a race car. 3) I want everybody to smell my Avgas. The question I have, is does anybody have a general equation for the critical flow for a given throttle position, with real co-effecients? p.s. It is now running, but without knowing the critical flow above closed throttle, the mixture at part throttle is "interesting". p.p.s Has anybody here had any experience with measuring mixtures by measuring peak spark voltages? Any comments? *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 06:29:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id GAA12937; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:14:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA12932; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 02:14:51 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id QAA01839 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:14:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA21604; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:49:16 +0800 Received: from mv8 by oec4.orbeng.com.au (5.4R3.00/1.34) id AA21604; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:49:16 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00027; Wed, 5 Jun 96 13:44:17 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9606051744.AA00027@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:44:08 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: MAF vs MAP Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu --- Jeffrey Giberstein wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but both GM and Ford "MAF" systems still run a MAP sensor to deal with situations that the MAF can't handle (transients, I presume). Jeff Giberstein Dartmouth Formula Racing --- end of quoted material --- MAF sensors can handle all the transients you can throw at them provided they're set up properly, ie, they're sampled correctly and you have some form of manifold filling compensation. I suspect that the additional MAP sensor is for added functionality, perhaps EGR control or maybe something else. Andrew Rabbitt Orbital Engine Company From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 12:37:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA13526; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:26:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13501; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:26:12 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA13387 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:25:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051225.AA13387@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:25:55 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:25:55 -0400 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP In-Reply-To: Your message of "04 Jun 96 23:25:13 EDT." <21052976@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:25:53 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Correct me if I'm wrong, but both GM and Ford "MAF" systems still run a MAP > sensor to deal with situations that the MAF can't handle (transients, I > presume). Current Ford "MAF" (mass air flow) systems do not include MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensors. Cost is a big issue. I'd be interested in anyone's experiences using both MAF and MAP sensors on a single engine. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 12:51:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA13568; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:43:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13563; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:52 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA16394 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051243.AA16394@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:44:08 EST." <9606051744.AA00027@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:43:26 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > MAF sensors can handle all the transients you can throw at them > provided they're set up properly, ie, they're sampled correctly and > you have some form of manifold filling compensation. I suspect that > the additional MAP sensor is for added functionality, perhaps EGR > control or maybe something else. "sampled correctly and you have some form of manifold filling compensation" -- here, here! Thanks for including that short yet very important statement. Ford currently uses a separate delta pressure gauge, dedicated to the EGR system, to estimate EGR flow rate. Speaking of EGR, it highlights a disadvantage of a MAP-based system for determining inducted air. A MAP sensor measures the pressure of the gas in the intake manifold. Unfortunately, that's not the same thing as the partial pressure of the air in the manifold under all conditions. So, in addition to compensation for volumetric efficiency, the ideal gas law estimate must be adjusted for EGR. Anthony Tsakiris Abbreviations: EGR = exhaust gas recirculation MAP = manifold absolute pressure --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 14:22:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA13905; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:11:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hoover.tanisys.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA13900; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:11:17 -0400 Received: from buren (buren.tanisys.com [204.96.111.250]) by hoover.tanisys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA02199 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:28:18 GMT Message-Id: <199606050928.JAA02199@hoover.tanisys.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Josh Karnes" Organization: Tanisys Technology To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:17:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (the 2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods unless you add a turbo. You *might* get as much as 3-5 hp at high speeds if you manage to design a very good forced system, but that will really only have an effect at speeds of 50+ mph. You can get a couple more ponies just by making a better, higher-flowing airbox, or cooling the air coming in (or keeping it cool, once it is cool), but the forced-air idea is not going to yield that kind of power increase. I hope you were kidding :) _____________________________________________________________________________ Josh Karnes joshk@tanisys.com Renaissance Man http://www.tanisys.com/~joshk/home.htm Tanisys Technology http://www.tanisys.com Austin, Texas '78 BMW 530i | '72 Datsun 240Z | IZCC #308 _____________________________________________________________________________ *** opinions expressed herein are MINE, ALL MINE!! *** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 14:43:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA14062; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:34:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA14057; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:34:40 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 09:30:56 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 09:25:13 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Wed, 5 Jun 96 9:25:12 CDT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 9:25:06 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: MAF vs MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu atsakiri@ford.com Wrote: | | | > MAF sensors can handle all the transients you can throw at them | > provided they're set up properly, ie, they're sampled correctly and | > you have some form of manifold filling compensation. I suspect that | > the additional MAP sensor is for added functionality, perhaps EGR | > control or maybe something else. Seems like the MAP sensor could be used to measure the transients in the manifold. Then maybe you wouldn't need to use throttle delta to calculate the acceleration enrichment. --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 14:43:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id OAA14073; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:39:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA14068; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:39:36 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA07442 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:39:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051439.AA07442@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:39:14 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:39:14 -0400 To: diy_efi Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 09:17:33 -0000." <199606050928.JAA02199@hoover.tanisys.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 10:39:11 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (the > 2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods > unless you add a turbo. You *might* get as much as 3-5 hp at high > speeds if you manage to design a very good forced system, but that > will really only have an effect at speeds of 50+ mph. You can get a > couple more ponies just by making a better, higher-flowing airbox, or > cooling the air coming in (or keeping it cool, once it is cool), but > the forced-air idea is not going to yield that kind of power > increase. I'm confused. What's the definition of "forced induction?" I took it to mean mechanically supercharged or turbocharged. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 15:13:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA14344; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:10:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14339; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:10:23 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA12868 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:09:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051509.AA12868@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:09:34 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:09:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:08:44 +0500 From: ehernan3@ford.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 892 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... >Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (th >2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods >unless you add a turbo...I hope you are kidding. I hope YOU are kidding. The guy says he wants to add a forced induc- tion system, which a turbo is. Yes, you can get that kind of power out of a 4 banger, especially a weak one. In rough terms, if he can achieve 0.5 atm of boost at 5000rpm, and assuming horrendous losses costing him half of that, he will get nearly 25% more torque than he is in N/A form. If the Chrysler makes 80hp @ 5000rpm in N/A form(and we know it makes much more than that), he will have his additional 20hp. His goal is easily achievable. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 15:17:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA14551; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:16:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14546; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:16:44 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA14191 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:16:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051516.AA14191@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:16:27 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:16:27 -0400 To: diy_efi Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 09:25:06 CDT." Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 11:16:25 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > atsakiri@ford.com Wrote: > | > | > | > MAF sensors can handle all the transients you can throw at them > | > provided they're set up properly, ie, they're sampled correctly and > | > you have some form of manifold filling compensation. I suspect that > | > the additional MAP sensor is for added functionality, perhaps EGR > | > control or maybe something else. I responded to this, but I didn't write it. (Technicality.) > Seems like the MAP sensor could be used to measure the transients in the > manifold. Then maybe you wouldn't need to use throttle delta to calculate > the acceleration enrichment. Yes, one would think that. I'm sure it can, but I've never come across a specific, complete plan detailing how to do it. That's not to say one doesn't exist. Decisions need to be made regarding under what condition to use which sensor, how to switch modes, etc. It gets cumbersome (computationally, in the production world) quickly. As for acceleration enrichment, we've entered a new arena. Now we're discussing A/F ratio control, not measurement of inducted air. If the approach is to add additional fuel, without trying to measure air then calculate the amount of fuel (based on measured air and desired A/F ratio), then why add a MAP sensor? The throttle position sensor is already there. Am I missing a benefit of MAP-based enrichment over throttle-based enrichment? Anthony Tsakiris A/F = air-fuel MAP = manifold absolute pressure (Should I still be adding these definitions. I recall a past discussion.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 15:31:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA14600; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:26:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14595; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:26:40 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23044 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA26157 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.hf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #7) Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:26:39 PDT Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:18:00 PDT From: Gary W Harris Message-ID: To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Text item: > MAF sensors can handle all the transients you can throw at them > provided they're set up properly, ie, they're sampled correctly and > you have some form of manifold filling compensation. I suspect that > the additional MAP sensor is for added functionality, perhaps EGR > control or maybe something else. "sampled correctly and you have some form of manifold filling compensation" -- here, here! Thanks for including that short yet very important statement. Ford currently uses a separate delta pressure gauge, dedicated to the EGR system, to estimate EGR flow rate. Speaking of EGR, it highlights a disadvantage of a MAP-based system for determining inducted air. A MAP sensor measures the pressure of the gas in the intake manifold. Unfortunately, that's not the same thing as the partial pressure of the air in the manifold under all conditions. So, in addition to compensation for volumetric efficiency, the ideal gas law estimate must be adjusted for EGR. --In fact, there are extensive look-up tables in the GM ECU's to compensate for the flow and mixture dilution due to EGR. All must be accounted for... GH Anthony Tsakiris Abbreviations: EGR = exhaust gas recirculation MAP = manifold absolute pressure --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu X-Mts: smtp Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:43:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:44:08 EST." <9606051744.AA00027@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051243.AA16394@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA16394 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43:27 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (9 40816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA13563; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:43 :52 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA13568; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:43:53 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.9 0.150]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA15147 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by relay.jf.i ntel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18078 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 16:24:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA16249; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:15:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16244; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:15:47 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:56:01 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:50:08 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:49:57 CDT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:49:52 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: MAF vs MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu atsakiri@ford.com Wrote: | I responded to this, but I didn't write it. (Technicality.) oops | | |>Seems like the MAP sensor could be used to measure the transients in the |>manifold. Then maybe you wouldn't need to use throttle delta to calculate |>the acceleration enrichment. | | Yes, one would think that. I'm sure it can, but I've never come | across a specific, complete plan detailing how to do it. That's | not to say one doesn't exist. Decisions need to be made regarding | under what condition to use which sensor, how to switch modes, | etc. It gets cumbersome (computationally, in the production | world) quickly. I'm not talking about switching modes, I'm talking about using both sensors as inputs to a control equation. Throttle openings and closings can cause transients in the manifold/plenum that the MAF sensor won't see, right? There was a discussion a long time ago about equations to model these transients in order to correct the MAF measurement. It seems like using a MAP sensor to measure transients would be easier than constructing a mathematical model of the intake. Isn't the throttle based enrichment algorithm a simple way of approximating this transient condition? | | As for acceleration enrichment, we've entered a new arena. Now | we're discussing A/F ratio control, not measurement of inducted | air. If the approach is to add additional fuel, without trying | to measure air then calculate the amount of fuel (based on | measured air and desired A/F ratio), then why add a MAP sensor? | The throttle position sensor is already there. Am I missing a | benefit of MAP-based enrichment over throttle-based enrichment? No, I am probably missing it. You are right, the throttle sensor is there, might as well use it. I was curious about a MAP sensor in this application | A/F = air-fuel | MAP = manifold absolute pressure (Should I still be adding these | definitions. I recall a past | discussion.) might as well.... I remember being pretty lost right after I first subscribed. Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 16:24:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA16257; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:16:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hoover.tanisys.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16252; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:16:36 -0400 Received: from buren (buren.tanisys.com [204.96.111.250]) by hoover.tanisys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02694 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:33:50 GMT Message-Id: <199606051133.LAA02694@hoover.tanisys.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Josh Karnes" Organization: Tanisys Technology To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:23:06 +0000 Subject: Re: How about no MAF or MAP? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > My pet project at the moment, is a EFI (& Elec. Ign.) system for my > Datsun 510 club race car. I've taken one look at your average flap > type mass airflow sensor (280ZX) L-Jet. OK, I wanna get into this discussion, as I have a BMW with an L-Jet that I'd love to modify. Of course, this car has the complete L-Jet on there now, with all the sensors and AFM, TPS, etc. Also, the original throttle body. I don't have to meet any emmissions tailpipe tests or whatever here in Austin either, so I am very much interested in ditching the AFM in my car. I assume that after a certain number of rpms, the ECU takes over for the miixture curve. It has to sense this rpm somewhere, right? Which means that there must be some circuitry in there for determining injector pulse width based on rpm. This must also be independent of the throttle position. Is it feasible that you could feed the AFM inputs on the ECU with the output of some circuit comprising of a frequency-to-voltage converter and some op amps, so you could simulate a condition of the variable resistor AFM? Basically a voltage is applied to the rail of the AFM, then there is some resistance, so there is an output voltage after the drop through the resistor (there must be a reference resistor in the ECU, I guess). So, with a frequency-to-voltage converter sampling pulses from the coil, you can convert the rpms to a voltage. You can then use some sort of variable resistor to find the throttle position. Use these to drive the input of an op amp that can be tuned to give a voltage output approximating that of the AFM in the same scenario. This would adjust the pulse width of the injectors based both on throttle position and on rpm. No restriction from the AFM either. Just a thought. I am sure you guys have been all over mmodifying L-Jet EFI, so is there an archive anywhere I can read? I'd like to get up to speed on the state of the discussion before asking a bunch of questions that have been answered a million times or bringing up topics that have been covered already. Later- _____________________________________________________________________________ Josh Karnes joshk@tanisys.com Renaissance Man http://www.tanisys.com/~joshk/home.htm Tanisys Technology http://www.tanisys.com Austin, Texas '78 BMW 530i | '72 Datsun 240Z | IZCC #308 _____________________________________________________________________________ *** opinions expressed herein are MINE, ALL MINE!! *** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 16:37:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA16312; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:28:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16307; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:28:35 -0400 Received: from ptdcs2.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.4/10.0i); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:28:14 -0700 Received: from ptdi66 (ptdi66.ra.intel.com) by ptdcs2.intel.com with SMTP id AA10868 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:28:13 -0700 Message-Id: <31B5B59D.6102@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 09:28:13 -0700 From: "David W. Taylor" Organization: Intel X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; AIX 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: References: <199606050928.JAA02199@hoover.tanisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Josh Karnes wrote: > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (the > 2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods > unless you add a turbo. You *might* get as much as 3-5 hp at high > speeds if you manage to design a very good forced system, but that > will really only have an effect at speeds of 50+ mph. You can get a > couple more ponies just by making a better, higher-flowing airbox, or > cooling the air coming in (or keeping it cool, once it is cool), but > the forced-air idea is not going to yield that kind of power > increase. > > I hope you were kidding :) Actually I am considering a small Roots (Whipple Charger) Blower. When I used the term forced I meant it :) Upgrading to forged pistons, And if the $$ work out Mopar Performance Aluminum High Flow Head. Like I say, this is the research stage, I get about 120 Hp now and Set an arbitrary target of 140 as a design goal. The trick is I want to do a bypassed turbo or Super charger with a demand clutch to shift it in and out of the system. I'm leaning toward the mechanical blower because in my 4x4 throttle response is an issue. Mopar has a complete performance kit for the motor that bumps it to about 160 HP but its MAJOR $$ ,, Around 5K. And its all High rev power. Heck if ya don't check out all your options how are you going to empty your wallet. My checking account seems to have the ability to go from full to emty in < .4 seconds.... :) -- David Taylor dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com Ph(503) 613-8132 Portland OR. My opinions are mine ,, and nobody elses. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:05:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16431; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:00:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16426; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:00:53 -0400 Received: from frankparker.chem.lsa.umich.edu by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.3) with SMTP id NAA10247; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:59:02 -0600 (EDT) From: Frank Parker To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: X-Sender: fparker@f.imap.itd.umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199606051509.AA12868@internet-mail.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > >Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (th > >2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods > >unless you add a turbo...I hope you are kidding. > > I hope YOU are kidding. The guy says he wants to add a forced induc- > tion system, which a turbo is. Yes, you can get that kind of power out > of a 4 banger, especially a weak one. In rough terms, if he can > achieve 0.5 atm of boost at 5000rpm, and assuming horrendous losses > costing him half of that, he will get nearly 25% more torque than he > is in N/A form. If the Chrysler makes 80hp @ 5000rpm in N/A form(and > we know it makes much more than that), he will have his additional > 20hp. His goal is easily achievable. > I do not believe he knows what he is asking. I have done several turbo and they are not for the inexperienced. He should have a very mild NO2 fogger added. Cheap and if installed correctly, @ that HP, very reliable. frank parker From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:15:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16479; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:12:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16474; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:12:53 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA04988 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:12:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051712.AA04988@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:12:05 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:12:05 -0400 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forced induction/supercharger In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 09:28:13 PDT." <31B5B59D.6102@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:12:31 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Actually I am considering a small Roots (Whipple Charger) Blower. > When I used the term forced I meant it :) > [snip] > > I get about 120 Hp now and Set an arbitrary target of 140 as a design > goal. The trick is I want to do a bypassed turbo or Super charger > with a demand clutch to shift it in and out of the system. I'm leaning > toward the mechanical blower because in my 4x4 throttle response is an > issue. [snip] You can also "bypass" a mechanical supercharger. The 1.5 liter Roots blower on the supercharged 3.8 liter Ford V-6 recirculated the air from the supercharger outlet (after the intercooler actually) back to the supercharger's inlet. Air is still pumped around the loop, but against a very low pressure differential. When boost was desired, the recirculation path was closed. Air then flowed only to the intake manifold. The recirculation valve was a small throttle blade-like valve, moved by a vacuum actuator. It could also be operated based on throttle or pedal position. This approach might be less complicated and less expensive than a supercharger clutch. recirculation valve / +---------|X|--------------<---+ | | | ------- ------- | ---------- | | | | | | | | -->--+----| S/C |-->--| I/C |---+-->--| manifold |--> | | | | | | ------- ------- ---------- Anthony Tsakiris S/C = supercharger I/C = intercooler --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:17:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16502; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:15:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16497; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:15:49 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA05458 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:15:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051715.AA05458@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:15:00 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:15:00 -0400 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forced induction/supercharger, additional comment In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 12:59:02 MDT." Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:15:27 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... [snip] Frank Parker makes a good point about the about objective. The supercharger arrangement I previously described is a lot to go through for a small, 20 hp power increase. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:23:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16551; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:21:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from tynsun01.tyndall.af.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16545; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:21:13 -0400 Received: from cs-smtp.tyndall.af.mil by tynsun01.tyndall.af.mil (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA22240; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:12:16 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by cs-smtp.tyndall.af.mil id AA834002413 Wed, 05 Jun 96 12:20:13 cdt Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 12:20:13 cdt From: jfaubion@cs-smtp.tyndall.af.mil (jfaubion) Encoding: 1408 Text Message-Id: <9605058340.AA834002413@cs-smtp.tyndall.af.mil> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine >(the 2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with >induction mods unless you add a turbo. Being a long time nitrous oxide racer, my first question would be for how long? If you only need the power for short bursts (say 5-20 seconds) at a time, use nitrous oxide injection. This should provide a reliable 20-30 hp. Especially if used in conjunction with a few pressure switches and a throttle position switch. This will allow you to use the nitrous at full throttle only and shut it down if oil or fuel pressure is lost. This works great for passing and merging with traffic. If you need the power for a longer period then I'd recommend turbocharging. Works great, lasts long time, and is a relatively easy DIY project. Is is just as dangerous to the life of the engine as nitrous but power can be used for longer periods. >speeds if you manage to design a very good forced system, but that >will really only have an effect at speeds of 50+ mph. You can get a >couple more ponies just by making a better, higher-flowing airbox, >or cooling the air coming in (or keeping it cool, once it is cool), >but the forced-air idea is not going to yield that kind of power Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id NAA16783; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051730.NAA16783@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: miwako@seadwarf.sps.mot.com (Miwako Okuyama) Subject: help Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu I would like to learn about CDI and EFI. I don't know anything about mechanical stuff. My friend is trying to learn microcontroller programming for them, and I am trying to help him on that. But I would like to know what ignition system is about so that I can help him better. Would anyone suggest any book or magazine to read for someone who doesn't know anything about it and don't want to spend many hours studying about it? I don't have access to web pages, so please don't refer web pages. Please send mail to miwako@seasick.sps.mot.com. Thanks, Miwako Okuyama From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:36:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16612; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:28:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16597; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:28:01 -0400 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA28832 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:27:54 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com ([192.88.171.200]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA10635 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:27:53 MST Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA06372; Wed, 5 Jun 96 12:27:52 -0500 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04313; Wed, 5 Jun 96 12:41:14 CDT Received: from cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA18248 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:28:03 -0500 From: Matt Sale Received: by cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id NAA05382 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:28:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051728.NAA05382@cobrajet.mot.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: 20 more HP To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:28:01 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <31B5B59D.6102@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com> from "David W. Taylor" at Jun 5, 96 09:28:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1023 Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > > > I get about 120 Hp now and Set an arbitrary target of 140 as a design > goal. The trick is I want to do a bypassed turbo or Super charger > with a demand clutch to shift it in and out of the system. I'm leaning > toward the mechanical blower because in my 4x4 throttle response is an > issue. > > -- > David Taylor dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com Ph(503) 613-8132 Portland OR. > My opinions are mine ,, and nobody elses. > To use an Intel based analogy, you're attempting to emulate a Pentium using a '286. Wouldn't it be cheaper to stuff a V-6 or V-8 in place of the 4-cyl? Then you would have the bottom-end grunt you really need. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew D. Sale Delco Electronics Corp. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:42:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16860; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:38:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16855; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:38:00 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA09345 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:37:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051737.AA09345@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:37:12 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:37:12 -0400 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 96 10:49:52 CDT." Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:37:38 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > |>Seems like the MAP sensor could be used to measure the transients in the > |>manifold. [snip] > | Decisions need to be made regarding > | under what condition to use which sensor, how to switch modes, > | etc. > I'm not talking about switching modes, I'm talking about using both sensors > as inputs to a control equation. Throttle openings and closings can cause > transients in the manifold/plenum that the MAF sensor won't see, right? > There was a discussion a long time ago about equations to model these > transients in order to correct the MAF measurement. It seems like using a > MAP sensor to measure transients would be easier than constructing a > mathematical model of the intake. Isn't the throttle based enrichment > algorithm a simple way of approximating this transient condition? I agree with you that a MAP sensor could possibly provide a benefit during transients. I just haven't figured out how to do it yet. :) If you've got the control equation, by all means DON'T send it to me! Send it to the list or some Ford lawyer. [ :) again ] If the MAF sensor is mounted upstream of the intake manifold, throttle position changes will produce air flow changes at the MAF sensor before pressure changes in the manifold. (Assumption: throttle flow is not choked.) The flow through the throttlebody and the MAF sensor will be a function of pressure ratio across the throttle and the flow area. Even if the pressure ratio doesn't change, the area surely will. The manifold pressure will lag the inflow. The flow rate at the throttle and MAF sensor will change dramatically. This air flow however (the flow INTO the manifold) is not that which is inducted into the cylinders. Some of that incoming air serves to raise the manifold pressure. After the transient event, inflow and outflow converge again. Anthony Tsakiris MAF = mass air flow MAP = manifold absolute pressure --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 17:52:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA16927; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:43:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hoover.tanisys.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16921; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:43:23 -0400 Received: from buren (buren.tanisys.com [204.96.111.250]) by hoover.tanisys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03127 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:00:38 GMT Message-Id: <199606051300.NAA03127@hoover.tanisys.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Josh Karnes" Organization: Tanisys Technology To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:49:54 +0000 Subject: Re: Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > >Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine > >(th 2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with > >induction mods unless you add a turbo...I hope you are kidding. > > I hope YOU are kidding. The guy says he wants to add a forced induc- > tion system, which a turbo is. sorry, i thought he meant the 'ram-air' type jobbie whereby you simply reduct the intake air to get the air from the high-pressure area in front of the radiator. i misinterpreted 'forced-air', by which he meant turbocharger. sorry for the confusion. _____________________________________________________________________________ Josh Karnes joshk@tanisys.com Renaissance Man http://www.tanisys.com/~joshk/home.htm Tanisys Technology http://www.tanisys.com Austin, Texas '78 BMW 530i | '72 Datsun 240Z | IZCC #308 _____________________________________________________________________________ *** opinions expressed herein are MINE, ALL MINE!! *** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 18:05:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA17001; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:55:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16996; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:55:33 -0400 Received: from crl13.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA19627 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:55:06 -0700 Received: by crl13.crl.com id AA25813 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:45:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <199606051509.AA12868@internet-mail.ford.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I'm trying to asses the potential for a forced induction system to > > get about 20 more HP out of the 4 cyl engine..... > > >Say what? There is no way to get 20 more hp from a 4 cyl engine (th > >2.5L injected "slant-four" from Chrysler, right?) with induction mods > >unless you add a turbo...I hope you are kidding. > > I hope YOU are kidding. The guy says he wants to add a forced induc- > tion system, which a turbo is. Yes, you can get that kind of power out > of a 4 banger, especially a weak one. In rough terms, if he can A few of the earlier posts on this topic came to mind as I took a break from some Italian wiring problems and read through the only reason I subscribe to Cycle World: the monthly column [and occasional article] from Kevin Cameron. This month's TDC column is titled "Intake Flow 101." This list is often made more interesting by the wide range of experience of the participants. Kevin's articles are like that, too -- even on a topic where I feel fairly comfortable, his analysis always gives me a new idea or a new way of thinking about something. I think there was a little confusion about the meaning of forced induction among some of our participants here. And I think a few people were underestimating the amount of low speed help can [and on most modern cars finally does] come from the intake [and exhaust] system. I've been working on a couple of Alfa Romeo 1900 TI projects, and a few years ago was lucky enough to ask the right questions when interviewing a couple of the old-timer engineers. There was a lot of experimental testing going on in Milan in the very early 1950's. Kevin's column takes up the story about then... and follows with an interesting technical description. So if you have an extra $3.50 while at the grocery store... --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 19:58:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA18644; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:41:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hermes.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA18639; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:41:44 -0400 Received: from ptdcs2.intel.com by hermes.intel.com (8.7.4/10.0i); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:41:42 -0700 Received: from ptdi66 (ptdi66.ra.intel.com) by ptdcs2.intel.com with SMTP id AA18671 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:41:40 -0700 Message-Id: <31B5E2F3.60E3@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:41:39 -0700 From: "David W. Taylor" Organization: Intel X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; AIX 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forced induction on a 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Boy did a lot of people answer my question, :) Thanks. I got enough responses that I figured I'd better give you all a better description of the goal and the problem. I wish to take an engine equiped with MAP and Multi-Port fuel injection and increse the HP by 20+. Maintaining daily drivability, This is a 4x4 not a race car, so power control is VERY important. It would be a bad thing (tm) if I was crawling up a 45 degree rock face and when I gassed it to get over a small bump I got all 140 HP at once... Mission control we have liftoff. Un fortunately wranglers don't have a glide ratio. Turbo or Mechanical supercharger. At this point I am leaning towards using the Whipple Supercharger. The reason is that I want throttle response thats immediate, and I don't intend to run the engine at over 5K rpms. I've gotten a few sugestions ,, Here's my process of elimination, 1. Bigger motor - My only option in Oregon is the 4.0 6 Cyl. Our emissions laws don't allow the transplant of any motor into any vehicle that it did not come in as an option if the Chassis was manufactured after 1981. BUMMER> And the 4.0 6 cylinder gets in the low teens for mileage on a good day. 2. NO2 - I've seen some neat systems but I can't buy NO2 at Texaco. I'm unsure of "how much" of a nitrous system I would need and how much gas I'd have to carry to run it a lot. - Need more info on this, I understand there's a couple good books out there so I'll have to do more legwork here. 3. Turbo - Good power reliable - Tough to get sharp throttle response. possibly use a light NO2 fog to get thru the turbo-lag zone. 4. Super charger - Instant throttle response, Complicated due to the mechanical installation to drive it. If installed with a bypass it could have very smooth transition characteristics from low to high power levels. I'm still on the vocabulary growth curve so if I'm using the wrong terms please let me know. David Taylor dwtaylor@ptdcs2.intel.com Ph(503) 613-8132 Portland OR. My opinions are mine ,, and nobody elses. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 20:58:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA19464; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:43:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA19457; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:40:22 -0400 Received: from [204.134.97.24] (pmc04.rt66.com) by Rt66.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05930; Wed, 5 Jun 96 14:32:25 MDT X-Sender: cal@mack.rt66.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:36:37 -0600 To: diy_efi From: cal@Rt66.com (Cal Smith) Subject: Re: MAF vs MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >I'd be interested in anyone's experiences using both MAF and >MAP sensors on a single engine. The Toyota 3S-GTE (MR2-Turbo and Celica All-Trac Turbo) have both. The MAF measures air mass while the MAP sensor hooks to a boost gauge and tells the computer if an overboost condition is present. I know this wasn't the intent of your request, seeing as how the map sensor in this case has nothing to do with controlling air/fuel metering, but it has both nonetheless. :-) Cal Smith From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 21:01:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id UAA19475; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:48:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA19470; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:48:54 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz) by stimpy.fp.co.nz with SMTP id AA08309 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:48:10 +1200 Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03232; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:47:19 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 6 Jun 96 08:48:27 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.21); 6 Jun 96 08:48:03 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:47:57 +1200 Subject: Re: How about no MAF or MAP? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.32) Message-Id: <3060110482@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: "Josh Karnes" > I don't have to meet any emmissions tailpipe tests or whatever here > in Austin either, so I am very much interested in ditching the AFM in > my car. I assume that after a certain number of rpms, the ECU takes > over for the miixture curve. It has to sense this rpm somewhere, > right? Which means that there must be some circuitry in there for > determining injector pulse width based on rpm. This must also be > independent of the throttle position. Not at all independent. The figure you need is the actual volumetric efficiency, which is clearly a function of both RPM, and Throttle Pos. The required pulse length is proportional to the volumetric efficiency. > Is it feasible that you could feed the AFM inputs on the ECU with the > output of some circuit comprising of a frequency-to-voltage converter > and some op amps, so you could simulate a condition of the variable > resistor AFM? Basically a voltage is applied to the rail of the AFM, > then there is some resistance, so there is an output voltage after > the drop through the resistor (there must be a reference resistor in > the ECU, I guess). So, with a frequency-to-voltage converter > sampling pulses from the coil, you can convert the rpms to a voltage. > You can then use some sort of variable resistor to find the throttle > position. Use these to drive the input of an op amp that can be > tuned to give a voltage output approximating that of the AFM in the > same scenario. This would adjust the pulse width of the injectors > based both on throttle position and on rpm. No restriction from the > AFM either. Arrrrggggh. Analog stuff! Stay away :-). Why not use a micro? So much more flexible and not at all expensive. I certainly would not consider a purely analog control system in my car! Good luck with your op-amps :-) *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 21:48:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA19887; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:40:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sleepy.apogeesys.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA19882; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:40:35 -0400 Received: from s2000.apogeesys.com by sleepy.apogeesys.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14227; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:34:16 -0500 Received: from dougpc (dougpc.apogeesys.com [198.81.213.25]) by S2000.apogeesys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA10161 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:30:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:30:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199606052130.RAA10161@S2000.apogeesys.com> X-Sender: doug@s2000.apogeesys.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: doug@apogeesys.com (Doug Gubbins) Subject: Re: Forced induction on a 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder. Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> >4. Super charger - Instant throttle response, Complicated due > to the mechanical installation to drive it. If installed with > a bypass it could have very smooth transition characteristics > from low to high power levels. > >I'm still on the vocabulary growth curve so if I'm using the wrong terms >please let me know. > David, I don't know if this info will be helpful or relevant to you, but I did want to make you aware that there are other types of superchargers than the Rootes blower design that may have characteristics more in keeping with your objective. I'm not an engineer, and I drive a Miata. I supercharged it last August with a Whipple Autorotor Lysholm compressor. The engine is a MAP multiport EFI, and the pulley that came with the SC gives me up to 8 psi of boost. My 1.6L engine is 117 bhp stock. Haven't done any testing, but I'm quite sure I have 50+ more horses. If you don't want that much horsepower, you can install a bigger pulley, or just don't mash the accelerator as hard. The response is instantaneous, and very smooth; you can drive it normally with no boost, or more aggressively with any amount of boost, and the boost comes in at very low rpms. The system has no bypass at all other than the idle air bypass whose inlet was relocated during installation. As for being complicated, I installed it myself over a weekend. The "kit" was from Bell Engineering Group, Inc (BEGI) of San Antonio, TX, and it came with intercooler, custom tubing, assorted castings for remounting and relocating throttle body and airflow meter, a boost-controlled fuel pressure regulator, a piggy-back high pressure fuel pump, and an MSD ignition retarder which I have since replaced with a J&S knock sensor so I can run whatever octane and timing settings I want. Price of the kit was about $2500 at the time, and depending on your enginuity (sp?) in making things fit together, you could probably obtain the same components and put it together for considerably less. This is Miata-specific, but BEGI's web site has some interesting info about their induction kits. The address is http://www.tristero.com/sa/business/bell/index.html. Doug Gubbins Apogee Systems, L&H Technologies Charlotte NC "There's always another bug..." From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 22:03:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id VAA19938; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:57:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA19933; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:57:02 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 17:01:46 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 5 Jun 96 16:54:07 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Wed, 5 Jun 96 16:53:51 CDT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 16:53:48 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: Forced induction on a 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu "David W. Taylor" Wrote: | | Boy did a lot of people answer my question, :) Thanks. | I got enough responses that I figured I'd better give you all a | better description of the goal and the problem. | | I wish to take an engine equiped with MAP and Multi-Port fuel injection | and increse the HP by 20+. Maintaining daily drivability, This is a 4x4 | not a race car, so power control is VERY important. It would be a bad | thing (tm) if I was crawling up a 45 degree rock face and when I gassed | it to get over a small bump I got all 140 HP at once... Mission control | we have liftoff. Un fortunately wranglers don't have a glide ratio. Just a small observation, if you are only (or mostly) off-road, emissions (and registration, I assume) aren't important. Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 22:25:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA20056; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:15:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hoover.tanisys.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA20051; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:15:09 -0400 Received: from buren (buren.tanisys.com [204.96.111.250]) by hoover.tanisys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA04340 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:32:25 GMT Message-Id: <199606051732.RAA04340@hoover.tanisys.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Josh Karnes" Organization: Tanisys Technology To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:21:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Forced induction on a 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > 1. Bigger motor - My only option in Oregon is the 4.0 6 Cyl. > Our emissions laws don't allow the transplant of any motor into any > vehicle that it did not come in as an option if the Chassis was > manufactured after 1981. BUMMER> And the 4.0 6 cylinder gets in the > low teens for mileage on a good day. Well, my mom's Cherokee with this engine and a 5 speed (2WD) gets about 20-22 regularly in a mix of city annd highway driving. That's with 190 hp, I tell you that Jeep with the 5 speed will smoke about 95% of all cars on the road. I have beaten Mustang GTs in it. It may even run with my Z. I think this engine may be the way to go for you. This is a great engine. > > 4. Super charger - Instant throttle response, Complicated due > to the mechanical installation to drive it. If installed with a > bypass it could have very smooth transition characteristics from > low to high power levels. This may also be a good option, I don't know. I think the 4.0 HO 6cyl would be your best bet if you can get one. The mpg with a supercharger on a 2.5L four is not going to beat the big 6 by much, if any, and the 4.0 will certainly last longer than a blown 4 banger. I think it would be interesting, for sure, but probably not the best option IMHO. Good luck, anyway, and let me know what you come up with :) A supercharger on my BMW might be just what the Dr. ordered :) Later- _____________________________________________________________________________ Josh Karnes joshk@tanisys.com Renaissance Man http://www.tanisys.com/~joshk/home.htm Tanisys Technology http://www.tanisys.com Austin, Texas '78 BMW 530i | '72 Datsun 240Z | IZCC #308 _____________________________________________________________________________ *** opinions expressed herein are MINE, ALL MINE!! *** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 22:51:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA20175; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:38:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA20170; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:38:50 -0400 Received: from van-as-12a05.direct.ca ([204.174.245.149]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <268200-18613>; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:32:23 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 14:50:00 -0700 To: diy_efi From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: Transient Acceleration Message-Id: <96Jun5.153223-0700pdt.268200-18613+923@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hi Folks >To take a lesson from the Good Folks at Mr Good wrench transient >enrichment can be handled in a multifaceted way. These folks use both >tps delta and map delta to enrich the fuel mix. This is done in two >ways. Low deltas are handled by adding to the base pulse a amount in >a lookup table corresponding to delta value of tps. High deltas add more >to base pulse as well as a corresponding amount due to Map delta. >Acceleration is also done outside of base pulse with assynchronous >pulses. These happen earlier and at a higher rate than base pulse. >This tends to take some of the computer lag out of the acceleration >reaction. >Just my two cents: peter >Ps I post the sams books on engine control and I have a book on controls >for dummies in a little. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jun 5 23:03:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id WAA20216; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:52:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA20211; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:52:24 -0400 Received: from van-as-12a05.direct.ca ([204.174.245.149]) by orb.direct.ca with SMTP id <28922-23784>; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:45:49 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:03:34 -0700 To: diy_efi From: pfenske@direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Subject: Sams books on engines and controls Message-Id: <96Jun5.154549-0700pdt.28922-23784+900@orb.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >A good book on Fuel Injection I found was Understanding >Automotive Electronics by William B. Ribbens by Sams. ISN 0-672- >27358-6, LCCN 91-78139 >For those people who really didn't pass controls in University >a good book on controls is Understanding Automation Systems >by Neil M. Schmitt and Robert F. Farwell. by Sams. >ISBN 0-672-27014-5 LCCN 84-51472. These are rather simple books >For the guys that really earned their degrees SAE has many >papers out on FI but concentrate on the early 1980s as the >later stuff is too hairy. >Well have fun guys: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jun 6 02:17:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id CAA20771; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:11:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA20766; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:11:43 -0400 Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu by seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.1/2.2) id WAA15171; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:11:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker X-Sender: fparker@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forced induction on a 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder. In-Reply-To: <199606052130.RAA10161@S2000.apogeesys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > David, > > I don't know if this info will be helpful or relevant to you, but I did want > to make you aware that there are other types of superchargers than the > Rootes blower design that may have characteristics more in keeping with your > objective. > > I'm not an engineer, and I drive a Miata. I supercharged it last August with > a Whipple Autorotor Lysholm compressor. The engine is a MAP multiport EFI, > and the pulley that came with the SC gives me up to 8 psi of boost. My 1.6L > engine is 117 bhp stock. Haven't done any testing, but I'm quite sure I have > 50+ more horses. If you don't want that much horsepower, you can install a > bigger pulley, or just don't mash the accelerator as hard. The response is > instantaneous, and very smooth; you can drive it normally with no boost, or > more aggressively with any amount of boost, and the boost comes in at very > low rpms. > > The system has no bypass at all other than the idle air bypass whose inlet > was relocated during installation. As for being complicated, I installed it > myself over a weekend. The "kit" was from Bell Engineering Group, Inc (BEGI) > of San Antonio, TX, and it came with intercooler, custom tubing, assorted > castings for remounting and relocating throttle body and airflow meter, a > boost-controlled fuel pressure regulator, a piggy-back high pressure fuel > pump, and an MSD ignition retarder which I have since replaced with a J&S > knock sensor so I can run whatever octane and timing settings I want. Price > of the kit was about $2500 at the time, and depending on your enginuity > (sp?) in making things fit together, you could probably obtain the same > components and put it together for considerably less. > > This is Miata-specific, but BEGI's web site has some interesting info about > their induction kits. > The address is http://www.tristero.com/sa/business/bell/index.html. > > > Doug Gubbins > Apogee Systems, L&H Technologies > C