From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 07:13:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA28094; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:06:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA28089; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:06:23 -0400 From: DJohn77284@aol.com Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA18938 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:06:22 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:06:22 -0400 Message-ID: <960901030622_398753231@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Manifold conversions. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chris, One of my long term projects is also Renault V6 based although it's the lesser known R30. This has the K-Jetronic as well. My intension is to replace the mechanical injection with electronics injection along with going to distributorless ignition. Have you any details that you could share with me? Do you have anything on tuning this engine? I haven't seen much available. I'd appreciate any thoughts or comments. TIA, Regards, Dave DJohn77824@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 10:12:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA28374; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:10:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA28364; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:10:07 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:10:07 -0400 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199609011010.GAA28364@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: archive http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 14:13:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA28629; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:10:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA28624; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:10:23 -0400 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA13660; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:10:22 -0400 Date: 01 Sep 96 10:07:59 EDT From: David Redpath <101513.357@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: knock sensor Message-ID: <960901140759_101513.357_IHP83-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I'm new to the group and probably covering old ground, but here goes :- I'm interested in hooking up a knock sensor to monitor my engine. Does anybody have information and/or prototype circuits ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 16:22:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA28753; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:18:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA28748; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:18:16 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial008h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.73]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA16756 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3229550F.6219@net-quest.com> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 09:19:11 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: knock sensor References: <960901140759_101513.357_IHP83-1@CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Once Again: J&S Electronics (714) 534-6975 13925 parkway Drive Garden Grove, Ca 92643 Talk to John, and tell him, Todd from Protomotive sent me. He's got a great product. His knock sensor will integrate with everything shy of distributorless and he's probably working on that as well. Good Luck. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering David Redpath wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm new to the group and probably covering old ground, > but here goes :- > > I'm interested in hooking up a knock sensor to monitor my engine. > Does anybody have information and/or prototype circuits ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 16:35:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA28781; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:33:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA28775; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:33:02 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa02191; 1 Sep 96 17:32 BST Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk ([158.152.100.96]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa09547; 1 Sep 96 17:31 BST Message-ID: <1yC3tHADObKyEwVE@oroboros.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:02:11 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Chris Morriss Subject: Re: Manifold conversions. In-Reply-To: <960901030622_398753231@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 <5asEvod5709R6741eo9wbh3aEa> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message <960901030622_398753231@emout14.mail.aol.com>, DJohn77284@aol.com writes >Chris, > >One of my long term projects is also Renault V6 based although it's the >lesser known R30. > >This has the K-Jetronic as well. My intension is to replace the mechanical >injection with electronics injection along with going to distributorless >ignition. > >Have you any details that you could share with me? Do you have anything on >tuning this engine? I haven't seen much available. I'd appreciate any >thoughts or comments. > >TIA, Regards, > >Dave >DJohn77824@aol.com > If it's the Renault 30 version of the engine you'll have problems with the ignition. The non-turbo versions of the engine have the crank con- rod journals shared. This means that the firing intervals are irregular 'cause its a 90 degree V6 block. The 2.5 litre turbo version and all of the modern 2975cc versions including the 24 valve have the offset crankshaft giving regular sparks. On these versions you could use three double-ended coils, but the older version would require six separate coils and a more complicated ignition timing unit. I guess that you must be in the US (being AOL.com). Drop me a private Email with your address and I'll post you some info on tuning this engine. Not got much though. My Alpine GTA is in a higher state of tune than the R30 or R25 engines to start with. There a couple of UK addresses I could give you that work with this engine. I also have a few French addresses if your French is adequate. (mine isn't) Bye, -- Chris Morriss From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 16:54:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA28808; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:51:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA28802; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:51:16 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca5-26.ix.netcom.com [199.182.132.186]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA18049 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:51:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:51:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199609011651.JAA18049@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: knock sensor To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Todd wrote: > >Once Again: > J&S Electronics > (714) 534-6975 > 13925 parkway Drive > Garden Grove, Ca 92643 > >Talk to John, and tell him, Todd from Protomotive sent me. He's got a >great product. His knock sensor will integrate with everything shy of >distributorless and he's probably working on that as well. In his 1992 book, Dr.(?) Jacobs claims that knock sensors jump the timing back six degrees, and it takes some time to recover to optimum. Meanwhile, an acceleration, like to pass a car, is over with. He says a dashboard-mounted timing control, which he happens to sell, gives better results. Comments? RD >David Redpath wrote: >> I'm new to the group and probably covering old ground, >> but here goes :- >> I'm interested in hooking up a knock sensor to monitor my engine. >> Does anybody have information and/or prototype circuits ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 18:00:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA28923; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:56:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA28918; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:56:54 -0400 Received: from ven-ca1-22.ix.netcom.com (fcmtb@ven-ca1-22.ix.netcom.com [205.186.74.54]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA11171 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:56:52 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:56:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199609011756.KAA11171@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: knock sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sounds like BS from the Doctor. No decent system is going to retard 6deg at the first instance of knock. I agree with Todd, the J&S is a good system. No time for messin with knobs while pushing the envelope in a fast car. Fred >In his 1992 book, Dr.(?) Jacobs claims that knock sensors jump the >timing back six degrees, and it takes some time to recover to optimum. >Meanwhile, an acceleration, like to pass a car, is over with. He says >a dashboard-mounted timing control, which he happens to sell, gives >better results. Comments? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 19:25:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA29045; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:20:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29040; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:20:51 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx02-17.teleport.com (ip-pdx02-17.teleport.com [206.163.120.81]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11030 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609011920.MAA11030@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #255 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: DJohn77284@aol.com >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:06:22 -0400 >Subject: Re: Manifold conversions. > >Chris, > >One of my long term projects is also Renault V6 based although it's the >lesser known R30. > >This has the K-Jetronic as well. My intension is to replace the mechanical >injection with electronics injection along with going to distributorless >ignition. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, but from my expierience the mechanical system is MUCH easier to work with, and reprogram, not to mention cheaper. Personally if hardware were available that could handle the quantity of air and fuel that I need, that's what I'd have. While the electronic systems have some advantages, cost, and tuneability aren't one of them. Hopefully as time goes on this will cease to be the case. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 19:48:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA29080; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:47:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA29075; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:47:11 -0400 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA19113; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:47:10 -0400 Date: 01 Sep 96 15:46:10 EDT From: Martin Evans <100341.377@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY EFI Mailing List Subject: Re: Real time dyno Message-ID: <960901194609_100341.377_EHQ41-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Todd Knighton wrote: >tom cloud wrote: >> >>My specific requirement has been to tune my current (Holley) EFI. >>The Idle, Midrange, Accelerator Pump, and Choke adjustments are >> simple enough. It's the Power adjustment that's too darned >> subjective for me. I used my EGO (but it's probably deteriorated >> with age -- ~ 14 years and 150,000 miles), and, of course, it tells >> me I'm either rich or richer. And frankly, I'm not one to want to >> do a bunch of timed runs to find the optimum setting. Seems to me >> being able to adjust acceleration for a peak would be a good way >> to adjust operation at WOT (understand I have a little more than >> 4 or 5 seconds to work with here). >> >> So, what's a J&S knock sensor? >Get a good EGO sensor firts, then something that will tell you when >you're in the 12.8 to 13.3 range, if you're running on Normal Gasoline >and normally aspirated. That will be you're peak power range. Have >never found a resource to tell me differently. >If you calibrate for acceleration, you might burn the motor up before >you find it. Most engines like leaner settings to produce peak power, >but they don't last long there. >A J&S knock sensor is an aftermarket knock sensor unit that will >intercept the ignition signal and alter it according to individual >cylinder knock. He's also got a monitor that will tell you how much >each cylinder, or group, is retarding so you can go back and adjust your >timing till no lights come on. Works great for a calibration tool. >Listed his phone and address for someone else in a previous post today. The "previous post" hasn't appeared in any of the digests received this week. Can you please repost details of the J&S knock sensor? Martin Evans 100341.377@compuserve.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 20:41:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA29163; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 20:39:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SantaClara01.pop.internex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29158; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:39:48 -0400 Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by SantaClara01.pop.internex.net (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11030) with SMTP id AAA13709 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:39:46 -0700 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com (Garfield) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #255 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:39:39 GMT Message-Id: <3229f273.66329536@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199609011920.MAA11030@desiree.teleport.com> In-Reply-To: <199609011920.MAA11030@desiree.teleport.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT), talltom wrote: >........from my expierience the >mechanical system is MUCH easier to work with, and reprogram, not to mention >cheaper. Personally if hardware were available that could handle the quantity >of air and fuel that I need, that's what I'd have. While the electronic systems >have some advantages, cost, and tuneability aren't one of them. I know this is an "E"FI list, but since my interest stems from aviation/reliability, I'd like to know all I can about the mechanical FI systems also. Is it still used widely in automotive. Are pieces available to build a system commercially? Sources (besides car parts depts, of course)? Finally, is the assumption that the mechanical systems are more reliable, a "reliable" assumption? Neophyte questions from a neophyte. Garfield From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 23:01:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA29306; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:58:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA29298; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:58:49 -0400 Received: from pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.9]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.6) with SMTP id PAA12359 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609012258.PAA12359@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Chatter Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:54 AM 8/31/96 -0700, Sandy Ganz wrote: >Man, I thought that I was bad with my Dual Pent pro's and 128 Meg. One thing >that this is my home system... I can now play Pinball, _and_ read mail! I am But you still type with two fingers like the rest of us, right?... >just in the process of moving all my stuff off my old Dx2-66 and look >forward to getting back to doing some PCB layout to finishing the EFI stuff. > >One thing is for sure, it is easy (and cheeper) to get computers to go fast! Yeah, wherelse can you triple your horsepower for a few hundred bucks? >> Got a server system with 4 PPro's @ 200MHz, 4GB RAM, plus racks of SCSI hard >> disks; when do we start? :-) >> >> Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com We expect no less from someone whose address is intel.com... BTW, when ARE you'se guys coming out with that Hexium, anyway? regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 23:01:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA29299; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:58:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA29292; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:58:46 -0400 Received: from pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.9]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.6) with SMTP id PAA11944 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609012258.PAA11944@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Sensor Wiring Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 05:22 PM 8/30/96 -0400, John Alsina wrote: > I want to use an LM34 three-terminal temperature sensor to measure engine >coolant temperature. The LM34 is kind of an odd bird. If you need to measure negative temperatures with it, you either have to have a bipolar supply or bias the sensor above ground. It doesn't like capacitive loads, since it is a micropower circuit. You can make a reasonably good 2 wire circuit that is relatively immune to noise, but it won't measure below zero. If you already have some of these, use 'em, but there are better alternatives. Check out the National databook, there's a few applications in the data sheet. They explain what to do about capacitive loads and describe some 2 wire and negative temp circuits, and do it better than I can. If you don't have a databook, check out the National Semiconductor webpages. They have online datasheets, but you need Adobe Acrobat to read them. A better choice (IMHO) is the AD590 from Analog Devices. It is a current output device, and outputs 1uA per degree K (Kelvin, 0K = -273C), so at 0C it puts out 273uA, and at 100C it puts out 373uA. Use a 2 wire shielded cable, carrying +5V on one wire and the current return from the sensor on the other wire. Run the return current through a resistor to ground, and measure the voltage across the resistor. Select the resistor to give you 10mV/deg C (10K ohms) if you run it on 5V. If you run it off 12V, you can increase the output voltage a bit, the sensor doesn't care if it has a regulated supply or not, but, your offset increases as well and may be more difficult to deal with. Put a cap across the resistor if you need more noise immunity, but the current loop style output is relatively immune to noise anyway. In either case, you'll need some gain and offset before the A/D converter to bring the signal from the sensor to, say, 0-5V. A differential input would be useful to eliminate some of the noise, but not essential, and input protection from accidental overvoltage is also wise. I recommend an LM10 opamp/reference chip, these are extremely useful for this type of application. Use shielded twisted pair cable to connect to the sensor, ground the shield ONLY at the engine block end. DO NOT connect circuit ground to engine ground. Stuff the sensor (whatever you choose) and some of the cable into some of that new heatshrink with the glue inside, this will shrink and seal the whole thing so it's guaranteed waterproof. Put this into a small copper, brass, or SS tube with one end sealed. Use standard tube fittings to seal the tube into a plug that will fit the manifold. A third choice now exists, and I recommend it highly. Dallas Semiconductor has a really nifty series of serial temperature sensor chips. Talk to them directly by flapping a uP port bit, they get power right off the pullup resistor on the port bit, Have 9 or 10 bit accuracy, and have virtually no problem with noise. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 1 23:01:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA29311; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:58:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA29305; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:58:52 -0400 Received: from pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU08.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.9]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.6) with SMTP id PAA12175 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609012258.PAA12175@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: FORTH Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:48 AM 8/30/96 -0500, tom cloud wrote: >Don't know if anyone cares, but I was looking through some old postings >and saw what dave wrote to me (above). So, here are some musings >about FORTH. Aw c'mon, Tom, we all care, it's just a matter of degree... > -- and there's other reasons I liked it, I think (there's two things that > go first as you get older, I just can't remember either of them > at the moment). You know, I'll be damned if I can remember them either... Have to ask the wife. FORTH did seem to make sense when I looked into it before. I have an IBM FORTH interpreter? compiler? somewhere on my hard disk, mebbe it's time to dust 'er off. But, as always, it keeps getting reassigned to a lower priority interrupt... >The main reasons I didn't like it: > > -- No one made a product (I used a Z-80 product called StackWorks Forth) > that really worked like I wanted. >From what I've heard of NMI, they've improved the older stuff somewhat. FORTH is one of those "dead" languages adored by the few and shunned by the rest. > I guess if it ain't the BATF, it's the dreaded Software > Police. God Save The NRA! BTW, the RCMP up here does have a special unit dedicated to software piracy, copyright infringement, and apprehension of people who don't send in their registration cards. They "unofficially" call themselves the Software Police... > -- Secondly (if that's a real word), FORTH code is known as > "write-only-code". You'd better document carefully, because > even you won't be able to figure out what you did after the > program gets large and some time goes by. Doesn't this apply just as well to assembler? >Oh well, just stirring the cauldron. Sh*t disturber... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 03:45:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA29613; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 03:41:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA29608; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:41:36 -0400 Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:41:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:42:09 +1000 To: diy_efi From: lambs@HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Subject: L28E Injector size ?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can anyone tell me the injector size (in lb/hr) used in Nissan L28E engines (ie 280Z/ZX) ?? Are the Nippon Denso injectors colour-coded according to size in the same way as Bosch injectors ?? TIA Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 04:27:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA29680; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 04:25:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA29675; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:25:44 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA21752 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:25:10 +1200 (NZST) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id QAA29823 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:25:03 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 2 Sep 96 16:26:18 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 2 Sep 96 16:26:08 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:25:59 +1200 Subject: Re: L28E Injector size ?? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Message-ID: <23659204595@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Can anyone tell me the injector size (in lb/hr) used in Nissan L28E > engines (ie 280Z/ZX) ?? > Are the Nippon Denso injectors colour-coded according to size in the same > way as Bosch injectors ?? Sorry, can't help you, but if anybody out there has a list of the colours & sizes, please post it or point me to it. *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 05:02:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA29737; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 05:00:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA29732; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 01:00:46 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca6-21.ix.netcom.com [199.182.132.213]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA15652 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:00:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:00:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199609020500.WAA15652@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: L28E Injector size ?? To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Are the Nippon Denso injectors colour-coded according to size in the same>> way as Bosch injectors ?? >Sorry, can't help you, but if anybody out there has a list of the >colours & sizes, please post it or point me to it. Some early Bosch ones are: VW 1.6L (Djet) black Porsche 914 1.7 (Djet) yellow Porsche 914 1.8 (Ljet) gray Porsche 912E 2.0 (Ljet) gray Porsche 914 2.0 (Djet) green Sorry, I don't know flow rates. RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 08:01:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA00042; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:47:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA00037; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 03:47:08 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.210]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01069; Mon, 2 Sep 96 09:41:35 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 09:41:34 +0200 Message-Id: <9609020741.AA01069@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: group buy pcb& chip Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HELLO TO ALL I want to know where ,also how (by credit card it's possible?) , I can purchase the pcb, for the efi ecu 68332 based cpu and relative BDM , the 'special chip': MC68332acfc20 AM29f010-120JC 5v eeprom 821949-5 - bottom part of 68332 socket 821942-1 . It's possible by a group if exist? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 08:07:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA00055; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:57:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA00050; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 03:57:07 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.210]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01242; Mon, 2 Sep 96 09:51:32 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 09:51:31 +0200 Message-Id: <9609020751.AA01242@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: Re: knock sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello Todd, David,Ricky & CO. I'm very interested about a knock sensor for to installing in a self-tuning EFI system. Can you say me where i can purchase any do you claims ??? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') >Todd wrote: >> >>Once Again: >> J&S Electronics >> (714) 534-6975 >> 13925 parkway Drive >> Garden Grove, Ca 92643 >> >>Talk to John, and tell him, Todd from Protomotive sent me. He's got a >>great product. His knock sensor will integrate with everything shy of >>distributorless and he's probably working on that as well. > >In his 1992 book, Dr.(?) Jacobs claims that knock sensors jump the >timing back six degrees, and it takes some time to recover to optimum. >Meanwhile, an acceleration, like to pass a car, is over with. He says >a dashboard-mounted timing control, which he happens to sell, gives >better results. Comments? >RD > >>David Redpath wrote: > >>> I'm new to the group and probably covering old ground, >>> but here goes :- > >>> I'm interested in hooking up a knock sensor to monitor my engine. >>> Does anybody have information and/or prototype circuits ? > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 15:14:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00604; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:08:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00599; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:08:09 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA04413; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:05:47 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:05:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: FI sizes/Alcohol questions Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Could someone mail me a list of Injector part#'s/sizes ? All we havve around here are Western Auto people who can't look up a part unless you tell them the make/model of car or a part #. I am trying to outfit our Formula SAE car for alcohol (~6:1, right), now I just need to find the correct size injectors. Do I have to get a special fuel pump for alcohol (b/c of lubricity), or can I use a gas model (longevity not a factor here). TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 16:38:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00707; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:36:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00695; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:36:16 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx02-03.teleport.com (ip-pdx02-03.teleport.com [206.163.120.67]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26963 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609021636.JAA26963@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I know this is an "E"FI list, but since my interest stems from >aviation/reliability, I'd like to know all I can about the mechanical FI >systems also. Is it still used widely in automotive. Are pieces >available to build a system commercially? Sources (besides car parts >depts, of course)? Finally, is the assumption that the mechanical >systems are more reliable, a "reliable" assumption? Neophyte questions >from a neophyte. > >Garfield Well most europeeon cars used them from in the early 70's thru mid-late 80's. Can't say about the availability of commercial parts, but can tell you that you'd better be able to find a distributor head/air cone combo that can approximate your supply needs else you have to do redesign that's not worthwhile. There may be aviation systems similar out there, but I'd bet price is ridicoulous. I don't think mechanical systems are more reliable in the whole picture. They need proper care and maintenance and are very unforgiving to abuse. Bad fuel, setting unused, and wear on finely machined parts all will do them in. With proper use and maintenance they are dependable though. Just higher in maintenance. Naturally aspirated I'd rather have a carburetor, as I don't like high maintenance anything. I still believe that the efi concept is the best, just getting one to work in configurations other than stock, or in the case of some even stock.(Bosch d-jetronic brain-$1400, Cadillac $800) The way I understand it I'm one of probably 12 people on the face of the earth with a bosch d-jetronic that doesn't work!(everything I own that's electronic has something wrong with it) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 16:38:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00703; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:36:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00697; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:36:16 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx02-03.teleport.com (ip-pdx02-03.teleport.com [206.163.120.67]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26982 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609021636.JAA26982@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: Knock sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Have to say that I've seen "Dr. Jacobs" advertise so much stuff that sounded flakey, I'd personally have to ride in the before and after and watch the proceedure to believe it. I did a Corvette with a turbo on it and used a old buick spark retard system, and while it worked, I wasn't really very happy with it. It would retard 3 degrees for every clatter it didn't like, and hold it for 20-60 seconds. The problem was that it was inconsistent, back to back runs would vary widely. In fact one day it decided to run harder than it had previous and fried the tires hitting second. The result being the rear end stepped out to the left and the car climbed the curb to teh demise of the right front corner. My question is what kind of expieriences have others had with knock retard systems? I'd think that by now this would have been refined some. >Sounds like BS from the Doctor. >No decent system is going to retard 6deg at the first instance of knock. > >I agree with Todd, the J&S is a good system. >No time for messin with knobs while pushing the envelope in a >fast car. > >Fred > >>In his 1992 book, Dr.(?) Jacobs claims that knock sensors jump the >>timing back six degrees, and it takes some time to recover to optimum. >>Meanwhile, an acceleration, like to pass a car, is over with. He says >>a dashboard-mounted timing control, which he happens to sell, gives >>better results. Comments? > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 17:08:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA00756; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:06:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00751; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:06:00 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.33) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:08:27 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Ancient History Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:06:26 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1370463589-31296768@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Am new to this mailing list, but have been thinking about this for years. Several years ago I drove a 1966 Chevelle with a 350 V-8 that had neck-snapping acceleration and excellent all-around drivablity. Belonged to a young machinist I took an aluminum head in to have a crack welded on. Asked his secret - and was amazed. Seems he took an older, off the shelf Hilborn mechanical fuel injection, modified it slightly and put it on the engine. Hold the objections, rumors and myths till I finish. He drilled the heads so that the untimed variable flow injector sprayed directly on the intake valve from the back side of the valve pocket. What was lacking in mechanical sophistication was made up in simple physics. Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it burns. All forms of carboration - including fuel injection - atomize the fuel hoping enough vapor will be formed to start combustion so that the heat and violence of combustion will finish the job. Power and fuel efficiency are directly related to how well that is done. Gasoline and air, when mixed has an broad range of combustion, from a 12 to one mixture for power to a 19 to one mixture for economy. The secret is how well it is vaporized and atomized prior to combustion. >From a vaporization point of view, gasoline has components that boil (vaporize) at temperatures from room temp to about 540 degrees F. Smokey once built and patented an engine that heated the intake mixture to this point and made amazing power and efficiency for NASCAR engines. The fuel -puddling on an intake valve has its temp raised several hundred degrees - without heating the incoming air charge. More fuel vaporized probably than even the most modern injectors achieve - by merely dumping it on the hottest spot in the intake system. Plus fuel vaporizing had to cool the valve - so even less heat added to the air mass - meaning a denser fuel air charge to the cylinder. Next, from an atomization point of view, the unvaporized gasoline components and fresh fuel were injected at the point where there is the maximum turbulence and violence in the air flow - the seat of the intake valve. Cold dry air to the port, fuel in at the valve seat itself - no drop out problems period. Not mechanically possible to mix it much finer. With simple tuning and good physics, this crude system worked very well indeed. The extremely high quality fuel-air charge made up for much of the mixture variations that this simple system had and made a very responsive, decent fuel economy street engine. No moral to this story, just food for thought. On my DIY conversion I am thinking about, I plan to put my injectors in the valve pocket if at all possible for all of the above. Only thing better would be to steal a diesel injector and squirt the fuel directly into the chamber against both intake and exhaust. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 17:56:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA00826; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:49:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ppp.cybernet.dk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00821; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:48:59 -0400 Received: from ppp.cybernet.dk by ppp.cybernet.dk (NTMail 3.02.09) with ESMTP id ia410236 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:48:48 +0200 Message-ID: <322B205E.2CEC@cybernet.dk> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 19:58:54 +0200 From: Niels Ezerman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Spare parts for Roto Master turbo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello all, I know this is not the right topic for this group, but i hope it ok this time, i think maybe some of you could help. For a friend with a Fiat X1/9 race car we are searching the following items: For the Roto Master turbo, type TU4S we need: Shaft, spare # 408337-2 Center house, spare # 430027-57 And a repair kit. If the above is not available, then for the type S4: Shaft, spare # 104011 Do you know a address, phone, fax or anything we would be very pleased. Thanks, Niels Ezerman Silkeborg, Denmark. nez@cybernet.dk [http://www.cybernet.dk/users/nez/] From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 18:01:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00854; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:00:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00849; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:00:45 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial009h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.74]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA28886 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322ABE99.2543@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 11:01:45 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Knock sensors References: <199609021636.JAA26982@desiree.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, My first question is, how tall are you really?!? ha, ha. I've found that if I run the ignition timing too close to the limit on the dyno that the knock sensors hit, the runs will be very inconsistent. But if the engine is set up properly, and the knock sensors never need to do any thing then the engine performs well and consistently. Knock sensors are for worst case scenario's. Bad gas, carbon buildup, impropper octane, exceedingly high temperatures. I've never found a system that works well enough to let it run on the sensors. We use the knock sensors with the monitor from J&S to tune the engine till there is no more knock showing, not to leave it run on it. A properly calibrated engine should never see knock anyway! Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering talltom wrote: > > Have to say that I've seen "Dr. Jacobs" advertise so much stuff that sounded > flakey, I'd personally have to ride in the before and after and watch the > proceedure to believe it. > > I did a Corvette with a turbo on it and used a old buick spark retard > system, and while it worked, I wasn't really very happy with it. It would > retard 3 degrees for every clatter it didn't like, and hold it for 20-60 > seconds. The problem was that it was inconsistent, back to back runs would > vary widely. In fact one day it decided to run harder than it had previous > and fried the tires hitting second. The result being the rear end stepped > out to the left and the car climbed the curb to teh demise of the right > front corner. > My question is what kind of expieriences have others had with knock > retard systems? I'd think that by now this would have been refined some. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 19:18:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01024; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:06:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01019; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:06:48 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca7-11.ix.netcom.com [204.31.251.43]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA22311 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:06:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:06:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199609021906.MAA22311@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi talltom wrote: >... The way I understand it I'm one of probably 12 people on the face >of the earth with a bosch d-jetronic that doesn't work!(everything I >own that's electronic has something wrong with it) I may be able to help you, Tom. I have a Djet tester, 17 years of driving Djet 914's, lots of spares, psuedo-schematics, oscilloscope, etc., and a distributor machine to do dynamic things. What is the nature of your problem? RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 19:36:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01072; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:24:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01067; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:24:04 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca7-11.ix.netcom.com [204.31.251.43]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA28551; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:23:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:23:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199609021923.MAA28551@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: Ancient History To: diy_efi Cc: 914@giza.estinc.com Cc: PorscheFans-914@ioio.com Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi RJ Harris wrote on diy_efi: >Am new to this mailing list, but have been thinking about this for years. >Several years ago I drove a 1966 Chevelle with a 350 V-8 that had>neck-snapping acceleration and excellent all-around drivablity. Belonged to>a young machinist I took an aluminum head in to have a crack welded on. >Asked his secret - and was amazed. > >Seems he took an older, off the shelf Hilborn mechanical fuel injection,>modified it slightly and put it on the engine. Hold the objections, rumors>and myths till I finish. > >He drilled the heads so that the untimed variable flow injector sprayed>directly on the intake valve from the back side of the valve pocket. What>was lacking in mechanical sophistication was made up in simple physics. > >Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it burns. >All forms of carboration - including fuel injection - atomize the fuel >hoping enough vapor will be formed to start combustion so that the heat and>violence of combustion will finish the job. Power and fuel efficiency are>directly related to how well that is done. > >Gasoline and air, when mixed has an broad range of combustion, from a 12 to>one mixture for power to a 19 to one mixture for economy. The secret is how>well it is vaporized and atomized prior to combustion. > >From a vaporization point of view, gasoline has components that boil >(vaporize) at temperatures from room temp to about 540 degrees F. Smokey>once built and patented an engine that heated the intake mixture to this>point and made amazing power and efficiency for NASCAR engines. The fuel>-puddling on an intake valve has its temp raised several hundred degrees ->without heating the incoming air charge. More fuel vaporized probably than>even the most modern injectors achieve - by merely dumping it on the>hottest spot in the intake system. Plus fuel vaporizing had to cool the>valve - so even less heat added to the air mass - meaning a denser fuel air>charge to the cylinder. > >Next, from an atomization point of view, the unvaporized gasoline >components and fresh fuel were injected at the point where there is the>maximum turbulence and violence in the air flow - the seat of the intake>valve. Cold dry air to the port, fuel in at the valve seat itself - no>drop out problems period. Not mechanically possible to mix it much finer. > >With simple tuning and good physics, this crude system worked very well>indeed. The extremely high quality fuel-air charge made up for much of the>mixture variations that this simple system had and made a very responsive,>decent fuel economy street engine. > >No moral to this story, just food for thought. On my DIY conversion I am>thinking about, I plan to put my injectors in the valve pocket if at all>possible for all of the above. Only thing better would be to steal a>diesel injector and squirt the fuel directly into the chamber against both>intake and exhaust. Very good information there; thanks. The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the other two cyls, so its operation is compromised. People on the 914fans lists have been debating the injector timing question, so your post is being forwarded there. Hope you don't mind. RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 20:37:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01148; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:25:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01143; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:25:40 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06365 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:25:10 +1200 (NZST) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id IAA24829 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:25:05 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 3 Sep 96 08:26:17 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 3 Sep 96 08:25:48 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:25:44 +1200 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Message-ID: <24658C63746@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >I know this is an "E"FI list, but since my interest stems from > >aviation/reliability, I'd like to know all I can about the mechanical FI > >systems also. Is it still used widely in automotive. Are pieces > >available to build a system commercially? Sources (besides car parts > >depts, of course)? Finally, is the assumption that the mechanical > >systems are more reliable, a "reliable" assumption? Neophyte questions > >from a neophyte. > > How about the real mechanical FI systems? Like off a '69 Mercedes coupe. No I'm not talking about K-Jet, I talking something that looks like a diesel fuel pump/distributor. I've only seen it in a workshop manual. Anybody with any experience with these, care to comment? *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 20:58:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01186; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:53:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01181; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:53:23 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06893; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:52:43 +1200 (NZST) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id IAA26574; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:52:32 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 3 Sep 96 08:53:51 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 3 Sep 96 08:53:20 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:53:10 +1200 Subject: Re: Ancient History CC: 914@giza.estinc.comPorscheFans-914@ioio.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Message-ID: <246CE393C76@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > > >With simple tuning and good physics, this crude system worked very > well>indeed. The extremely high quality fuel-air charge made up for > much of the>mixture variations that this simple system had and made a > very responsive,>decent fuel economy street engine. > > > >No moral to this story, just food for thought. On my DIY conversion I > am>thinking about, I plan to put my injectors in the valve pocket if at > all>possible for all of the above. Only thing better would be to steal > a>diesel injector and squirt the fuel directly into the chamber against > both>intake and exhaust. > > Very good information there; thanks. > > The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 > engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. > > With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake > stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the > other two cyls, so its operation is compromised. > > People on the 914fans lists have been debating the injector timing > question, so your post is being forwarded there. Hope you don't mind. > > RD > What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied to the cylinder? comments? *********************************************************** * There'll be no more misery * I came, I saw, I left * * When the world's our rotisserie * > bryantt@fp.co.nz < * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 2 23:39:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01366; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:37:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01360; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:37:27 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:39:54 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Ancient History Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:38:08 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1370440102-32709237@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Tony Bryant > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Cc: 914@giza.estinc.comPorscheFans-914@ioio.com > Subject: Re: Ancient History > Date: Monday, September 02, 1996 1:53 PM > > > > The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 > > engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. > > > > With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake > > stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the > > other two cyls, so its operation is compromised. > > > > People on the 914fans lists have been debating the injector timing > > question, so your post is being forwarded there. Hope you don't mind. > > > > RD > > > > What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical > cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve > gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? > Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) > But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied > to the cylinder? > > comments? > > *********************************************************** > * There'll be no more misery * I came, I saw, I left * > * When the world's our rotisserie * > bryantt@fp.co.nz < * > *********************************************************** Prior to cheap timing electronics, untimed fuel injection was the normal way. Timing is merely the thinnest icing on the cake. Alcohol fueled indy car engines screamed for hours at high RPM and dirt track sprint cars make 700+ horsepower from 400 ci engines on alcohol using Hilborn type units. Modern AA fuel dragsters make pushing 4000 horsepower with nitro fuel using Hilborn type units. World land speed records are routinely set at Bonneville Salt Flats with these primitive systems. Weber carbed formula racing and even street engines made incredible horse power per cubic inch without the benefit of timing. In every case - the higher the quality the mixture - the higher the performance. Untimed fuel injection's have reliably repeatably routinely made enormous amounts of power, with from mild to wild cam timing, with fuels varying from gasoline to liquid dynamite. Made it with the consistency needed to win races in virtually every category imaginable. This is not theory, this is proven fact that you can see every race day. The basic modification he made was move the location of the injector to what appears to be the optimum point. On every engine - a small portion of exhaust gas is pulsed into the intake manifold the amount depending on cam timing, load, and engine RPM. This is then sucked back into the cylinder diluting the charge. For you old timers, this is why you must richen a carb when putting headers on an engine - because the reversion pulse is damped - leaving less flow thru the carb (the first pulse backwards - followed by the normal forward pulse.) Untimed fuel systems have a fuel air mixture that is pushed backwards up the manifold (reverted) before being sucked back in. As this is very hot gas with no oxygen present (e.g. no flame!!) and lots of CO2, and this hot gas is quenched by contact with relatively cold (far below ignition temperature) matter in the intake tract - cold mixture cold intake valve, cold head, all that happens thru almost all ranges of performance is charge dilution and therefore less than theoretical power is developed. Aside - a very rich fuel mixture such as present when fuel is "puddled" on the valve is not combustible. A lean - i.e. minimally vaporized mixture such as from a mistuned carb or timed injector is explosive!! What timed fuel injection in conjunction with proper cam timing does is allow this reversion pulse to go up and come back out the exhaust port before adding fuel to the incoming air. Properly done, no air pump is needed for the cat converter as the reverted air pulse shoves oxygen out the exhaust. The chamber gets a full, dense properly mixed charge and makes better power, fuel efficiency and lower emissions. In all endeavors we tend to forget what has worked and is working in our efforts to achieve the new. We get enamored with new technology and scorn the old. We should instead - understand the baseline from where we want to go and use that to our advantage. Use only from the new what is needed to solve the unsolvable with the old - progress - not perfection. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 02:40:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA01557; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 02:38:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01552; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:38:37 -0400 From: MaxBoost@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23585 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:38:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:38:31 -0400 Message-ID: <960902223510_275562225@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: L28E Injector size ?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The injector flow rate for the 280ZX non-turbo is 185 cc/min and is very common. The turbo flows 259 cc/min. Max. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 05:45:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA01807; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:42:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA01802; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 01:42:21 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca27-55.ix.netcom.com [207.93.38.183]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA17726 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:42:18 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:42:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199609030542.WAA17726@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: Ancient History, and Djet and cams To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I wrote: >> The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 >> engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. >> With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake >> stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the >> other two cyls, so its operation is compromised. Correcting myself here: fuel squirts at beginning of intake stroke on two cyl, and beginning of exhaust stroke on the other two. Note: injector duration at Op Temp, WOT, 6,000 rpm, is 8.3 ms, while the valve is open only 5 ms. Bryantt piped up from down under: >What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical >cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve >gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? >Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) >But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied >to the cylinder? >comments? My '73 914 just happens to have a high lift cam with a lot of overlap. It won't idle decent below about 2000 rpm. To pass a smog check, I set the lifters out to .030", and then it idles fine. Clatters like hell. I've never had backfires with it. An additional problem is the low vacuum, about 12", below 2000 with that engine. The Djet responds to low vacuum by squirting more fuel, which makes it richer until it dies. I have found a fix for the ECU to alter the fuel curve, but haven't tried it in the car yet. RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 09:20:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA02133; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:16:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02128; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:16:12 -0400 Received: by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA24809; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:16:11 -0400 Date: 03 Sep 96 05:13:26 EDT From: David Redpath <101513.357@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: EFI332 home page Message-ID: <960903091325_101513.357_IHP60-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is the EFI332 home page operational ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 10:13:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA02261; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:11:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA02256; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:11:39 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA00534; Tue, 3 Sep 96 17:10:22 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA841799318 Tue, 03 Sep 96 18:08:38 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 18:08:38 Message-Id: <9608038417.AA841799318@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Newer VATS Vehicles Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Why not just carry a spare computer, unplug the original, plug the other in and off you go. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Newer VATS Vehicles Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 8/30/96 12:40 PM > What about the next year, after the thieves figured out how to get around it? > After all, if guys on the list can do it, so can anyone with enough > technical knowledge. Technical knowledge is great but it doesn't necessarily give you time to defeat it. The guys here that have cracked it have done it one of two ways. Either by trying each of 15 resistor values until it unlocked (with a 3-4 minute delay between each try) or by hacking the PROM which requires removing the computer, pulling the CalPak, removing the PROM, downloading it, editing it, blowing a new PROM and putting it all back together again. A thief just doesn't have the time to do all of this. He might be able to carry a spare CalPak with a modified PROM already in it but even if the thief decides to concentrate on a Corvettes there are about 8 different CalPaks he would have to carry. It still easier to use a tow truck or steal the keys. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 11:13:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA02331; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:10:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA02325; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:09:58 -0400 Received: from arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (arthur) by lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au with SMTP id AA08315 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:09:00 +1000 Received: by arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au id AA08970 (5.67a/IDA-1.4.4 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:09:41 +1000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:09:41 +1000 (EST) From: Jeremy Pronk X-Sender: jpronk@arthur To: diy_efi Subject: Jump starting an EFI car? In-Reply-To: <9608038417.AA841799318@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I am mainly a lurker on this list, but I should be getting a car with aftermarket EFI to play around with soon. Anyway, this morning the next door neighbour needed a jump start, and I remembered hearing somewhere that jumping starting an car with EFI can burn out the ECU? If so, what is safe method, and how does it actually get burnt out (I would like to learn)? regards, Jeremy, Sydney AUS '69 510 4dr From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 13:01:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02420; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:28:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02415; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:28:20 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01824 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:30:34 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA14506; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:28:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History In-Reply-To: <1370463589-31296768@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > > Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it burns. > All forms of carboration - including fuel injection - atomize the fuel > hoping enough vapor will be formed to start combustion so that the heat and > violence of combustion will finish the job. Power and fuel efficiency are > directly related to how well that is done. Um, sorry. Gasoline vapor explodes, it does not burn. Liqiud gasoline burns. Gasoline vapor ignited in a combustion chamber will cause detonation, which is highly undesirable. The spark ignites atomized gasoline droplets as they pass through the spark plug gap during the end of the compression stroke. The transformation of liquid gasoline droplets into hot exhaust gases by the process of combustion is what pushes against the piston during the power stroke. Gasoline vapor is not what is desired. What is desired is extremely fine gasoline droplets of uniform size. This is where fuel injection is superior to carburation. The droplets are more uniform with fuel injection than they are with carburation. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 13:08:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02435; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:37:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02430; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:37:51 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01881 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:40:06 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA15221; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:37:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 In-Reply-To: <24658C63746@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Tony Bryant wrote: > > > > > How about the real mechanical FI systems? Like off a '69 Mercedes coupe. > No I'm not talking about K-Jet, I talking something that looks like a > diesel fuel pump/distributor. I've only seen it in a workshop manual. > > Anybody with any experience with these, care to comment? There was a SPICA system on my old '74 Alfe Romero that looked like that. I did figure out how to adjust it, but of course, I was too unimformed at the time to buy the shop manual. As I understand it, they use very high pressure to the injectors. Higher pressure would make for finer atomization if the nozzle is designed right. Of course, the BMW2002tii used Kugel-Fischer (sp?) mechanical injection. I'm guessing, but I think most electronic FI use lower pressures because it would take too much electrical current to unseat the pintle of the injector in order to open it. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 13:14:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02446; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:41:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02441; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:41:45 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01903 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:43:59 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA15473; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History In-Reply-To: <246CE393C76@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Tony Bryant wrote: > > > > What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical > cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve > gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? > Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) > But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied > to the cylinder? As Ralph pointed out, the vacuum goes down at lower rpm due to valve overlap. A vacuum responsive FI would make the mixture too rich for the engine to run. I think carburators are more tolerant of this low vacuum at low rpm because they are passive devices and because they are less precise in fuel metering. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 13:15:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02454; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:44:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferrari.fing.edu.uy by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02449; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:44:41 -0400 Received: from bmw.fing.edu.uy by ferrari.fing.edu.uy with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0uxuc3-00000PC; Tue, 3 Sep 96 09:29 GMT-3:00 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 96 09:29 GMT-3:00 From: prebuf@fing.edu.uy (Pablo Rebufello - CECAL - ) To: diy_efi Subject: INFO to develop a software Cc: prebuf@fing.edu.uy Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi! I'm new in this list. I got a degree in Computer Science, and my brother works as a mechanic. I'm planning to develop a software to manage and visualize the data (I/O) to full control the EFI, and everything else that could be read from a computer. But I need information about de EFI, and any electronical sensor. I know it depens on the car, but at least I have to try with just one at the beginning. What I need is: - protocol of comunication from/to the devices. - how the data is transmitted from/to the device, as well as description of the data to send/receive from/to the device to be read/write from/to the computer. I know I'm asking for a lot of information, so anything will help. Source of information such as books, internet address, etc will help much. Thank you!! Pablo Rebufello prebuf@fing.edu.uy URUGUAY - South America From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 14:17:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02587; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:59:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02582; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:59:54 -0400 Received: from slip-69-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36260; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:59:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:59:47 -0500 Message-Id: <9609031359.AA36260@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: K_knock sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I don't do the race circuit, only want to go fast some times and just drive the others. The way I tune my toy is to set the advance until I get a little rattling on long hills on hot days (we have some of both of those) and back it off a little. So, Todd, or anyone else who cares to chip in, what's wrong widdat? tom cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 14:39:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA02614; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:14:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA02609; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:14:33 -0400 Received: from slip-69-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38574; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:14:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:14:21 -0500 Message-Id: <9609031414.AA38574@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Data/Spec. Sheets Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There seems to be a lot of ill-informed discussion on this group regarding various sensors, etc. I'm not putting anyone down, as I do the same thing. Seems like many of us suffer from the same malady -- a lack of data on the components in our systems. Can anyone shed light on where to get data on the various transducers used in EFI systems? (esp. EGA, MAP, MAF, etc.) I would like to find data on specific auto makers' components. They obviously have the data and I cannot see any reason why they would care if individuals have it -- can't be trade secret. Their engineers have to have access to it. It's gotta be published somewhere. Maybe Ed Hernandez (where'd he go?) could comment on where to get this data from Ford (and, yes, I do have a MotorSport book on EFI and Emissions, but it only gives 'typical' data). Can anyone help ? (Todd ?) Thanks, Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 15:13:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA02726; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:04:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02721; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:04:09 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.32) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:06:31 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Ancient History, and Djet and cams Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:04:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1370384505-3028803@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: RD Rick > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Ancient History, and Djet and cams > Date: Monday, September 02, 1996 10:42 PM > > Correcting myself here: fuel squirts at beginning of intake stroke on > two cyl, and beginning of exhaust stroke on the other two. > Note: injector duration at Op Temp, WOT, 6,000 rpm, is 8.3 ms, while > the valve is open only 5 ms. > Note for the timed/untimed discussion - the injector is pushing fuel for far longer than the valve is open. At this point, the question is moot. To have enough fuel to make power in this region, it must store fuel by puddling it on the valve and waiting for the inrush of air to finish mixing it. When it stores it there is of no consequence. The closer to the cylinder the fuel is injected the less the mixture problems. Sequential port fuel injection kicks butt over throttle body primarily because it generates a higher quality mixture that is more closely tuned to the engine. It starts with an unfair advantage because it eliminates all the complications and compromises of moving a gas/liquid mixture thru plumbing and instead deals with an air only system. Enough about timing - anyway works - get the mixture right and run. Take maximum advantage of the mechanical properties that you can. Leaves less for the control system to solve. GMC roots mechanical positive displacement 6-71 superchargers make monsterous horsepower yet the whole high pressure fuel air charge comes out of the blower totally asynchronous with regard to valve openings and cylinder filling and it has worked very well for 40 years of racing and street!!!!!. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 15:32:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00595; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:22:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02747; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:14:14 -0400 Received: from ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.25] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id RAA04514 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:14:01 +0200 Received: from knick@localhost by ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id RAA20055 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:14:00 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199609031514.RAA20055@ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: ISO-9141 To: DIY_EFI (EFI Mailing List) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:14:00 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 212 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all! Are there chips available for the ISO9141 standard? Anything would be welcome, from pure electrical interfaces to controllers which have parts of the protocol on chip. Thanks, Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 15:47:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00815; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:32:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02759; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:17:25 -0400 Received: by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA05054; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:17:25 -0400 Date: 03 Sep 96 11:14:12 EDT From: David Redpath <101513.357@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: FORTH Message-ID: <960903151411_101513.357_IHP99-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've seen a few postings recently about FORTH, I've done a fair bit of programming in FORTH, so as my first contribution here goes :- The microcontroller we used was an Hitachi H8, the original development board was from a company called Triangle Digital Services, they are in the UK and have a distributor in America I believe. Their development system came with lots of developed code, everthing from a multi-tasking kernel, Fast Fourier Transformation code, A-D software, multiple LCD screens, PWM outputs etc. It was very well supported, and might could well be a good basis for a EFI controller. ( I guess ). Also a book I bought called 'Forth - the new model' came with a disk with a FORTH compiler/interpreter on it. which run on a PC. So for learning Forth that might be a good starting point. ( I could found out the ISBN if required. ) Hope some of that is of some relevance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 16:37:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00912; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:05:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00901; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:02:16 -0400 Received: from Default (port30.tserver1.ao.net [205.244.242.130]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA31113 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:02:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:02:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199609031602.MAA31113@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >On every engine - a small portion of exhaust gas is pulsed into the >intake manifold the amount depending on cam timing, load, and engine >RPM. This is then sucked back into the cylinder diluting the charge. >For you old timers, this is why you must richen a carb when putting >headers on an engine - because the reversion pulse is damped - leaving >less flow thru the carb (the first pulse backwards - followed by the normal >forward pulse.) Untimed fuel systems have a fuel air mixture that is >pushed backwards up the manifold (reverted) before being sucked back >in. As this is very hot gas with no oxygen present (e.g. no flame!!) and >lots of CO2, and this hot gas is quenched by contact with relatively cold >(far below ignition temperature) matter in the intake tract - cold mixture >cold intake valve, cold head, all that happens thru almost all ranges of >performance is charge dilution and therefore less than theoretical power >is developed. Aside - a very rich fuel mixture such as present when >fuel is "puddled" on the valve is not combustible. A lean - i.e. >minimally vaporized mixture such as from a mistuned carb or timed >injector is explosive!! > >What timed fuel injection in conjunction with proper cam timing does is >allow this reversion pulse to go up and come back out the exhaust port >before adding fuel to the incoming air. Properly done, no air pump is >needed for the cat converter as the reverted air pulse shoves oxygen >out the exhaust. The chamber gets a full, dense properly mixed charge >and makes better power, fuel efficiency and lower emissions. > Could someone elaborate more on this? Excuse my ignorance, but I'm trying to learn more about combustion theory. I've been hot rodding cars for years now and have played with different carb / efi setups, but I'm trying to learn a little more on what "really" goes on (as in good techniques vs bad techniques of getting fuel to burn using injectors or throttle bodies etc). What I'm going to build (no laughs, please) is a fuel efficient pontiac 455 (If that ever existed) using some sort of fuel injection. Right now the car runs low 13's in the quarter and gets 12mpg (city) using a Quadrajet 750cfm; I want to improve that to 15-17mpg. I think the cheapest way to go is to use a tri-power manifold and hook up three 2barrel tbi's. I'm pretty good with building microcontrollers so now I'm just trying to decide a baseline by which the fuel injectors will fire (before tdc? during? after? during exhaust cycle too? in between? how long?) Of course I cannot get specific numbers, each engine is different, but I'm just trying to get an idea on how to approach the problem. The system will be a closed loop using o2 sensors and a map sensor (small cam, good vacuum). I'm interested to learn more about when should I inject fuel for best power and when should I do so for best efficiency. It seems that a Hillborn system just dumps fuel and fuel guaranteeing full combustion but at the expense of efficiency. I have so many questions but no words to put them together; I guess I'm just looking for a little "knowledge". >In all endeavors we tend to forget what has worked and is working in our >efforts to achieve the new. We get enamored with new technology and >scorn the old. We should instead - understand the baseline from where >we want to go and use that to our advantage. Use only from the new what >is needed to solve the unsolvable with the old - progress - not perfection. > I totally agree. Arnaldo E. aec@ao.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 16:38:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA01011; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:34:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail2.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01005; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:34:51 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com id AA29699 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:34:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199609031634.AA29699@internet-mail2.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:34:42 -0400 Received: by internet-mail2.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:34:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:34:16 -0400 From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Organization: V engine, Components B Department X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Really long water injection post, $0.04 worth References: <9607192140.AA8166@knotes.Kodak.com> <31F1C8A2.7578@murlin.com> <31F1E5E2.6E52@rt66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3742 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >...an article involving water injection to reduce detonation. My >question is: What happened to this wonderful idea? I saw an ad toward >the back of the magazine in which Edelbrock that was selling their >Vari-Injection I've been running my Vari-Jection unit for 6 years without problems. > If you forget to keep the tank filled and you don't have sophisticated >controls to either tell you of this or to shut the advance curve down >to stock when there is no injection taking place, you will cause >yourself a problem.... I just include this in my list of fluid levels to check, like how much gas do I have... >Octane rating has *nothing* to do with how fast the fuel burns. An >octane rating is a measure of an engine's resistance to detonation... No, octane rating measures a FUEL's resistance to detonation. >Flame front speed is very similar for all gasolines regardless of >octane rating. That depends on what you call similar. Different octane fuels do, in fact, burn at different rates. How important that is depnds on how well calibrated the seat of your pants is or how important that last 0.01 in the 1/4 mile is. >Water does not slow the combustion process. Its primary function is to >reduce the intake charge and combustion chamber temperatures, which >help the engine avoid detonation. No, it's primary function is to asborb some of the heat of combustion, reducing peak in-cyulinder temperatures, which improves the knock limit. Driving a phase change of water(ie, liquid to steam) takes a lot of energy. That kind of energy isn't available in the intake tracts of a normally aspirated engine. There's more in a turbo. I think I agree about the flame speed not being affected. >To my knowledge, knocking is not a fast burn. The burning >process takes some time (for the flame front to travel accross the >cylinder). As this burning is happening the pressure in the cylinder >rises dramatically. The pressure is also rising (BTDC) due to the >piston compressing the mixture. If these two pressure rises combine >(due to over-advancing the timing), the resulting pressure = internal >energy of the gases may exceeded the activation energy of the >combustion reaction. This energy will be present at all points in the >unburnt gas, so all molecules of unburnt gas are likely to react, and >when the do the pressure rises very suddenly (around TDC) with shock >damage resulting to your precious lump o' steel. Excellent and accurate explanation! But... >Knock resistance is a measure of the activation >energy required to combust (react) the mixture. Slowing the >burn rate can be achieved a number of ways, but its net effect is >that the peak unburnt gas energy density is lower because the >actual peak will occur when the piston is somewhat past TDC. >Knocking is not burning, so knock resistance cannot be a measure of >burn rate. I disagree. The best analogy I can think of is an old fashioned bomb fuse burning its way to a big black bomb. Think of the bomb as the knock limit. If it goes off, you've ignited the end gas as explained above: it explodes al at once. The fuse represents the parameters that control the knock limit(pressure, temperature and TIME). Your goal is to burn the mixture completely before the fuse reaches the bomb. Anything you do to increase pressure or temperature shortens the fuse, and the converse is true. Time is defintely a variable, which means that the knock limit is related to burn rate. Therefore, another approach is to outrun the fuse, which fast burn combustion chambers can do. Anyone notice how high the compression ratios of modern 4V engines (and even some 2V) are getting? Ed Hernandez, still catching up... Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 17:01:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA01054; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:51:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01049; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:51:34 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27229 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA11682 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.jf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #6) Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:51:29 PDT Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:49:00 PDT From: Todd King Message-ID: To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: knock sensors, ancient history Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi <<< From: talltom Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Knock sensors I did a Corvette with a turbo on it and used a old buick spark retard system, and while it worked, I wasn't really very happy with it. It would retard 3 degrees for every clatter it didn't like, and hold it for 20-60 seconds. The problem was that it was inconsistent, back to back runs would vary widely. In fact one day it decided to run harder than it had previous and fried the tires hitting second. The result being the rear end stepped out to the left and the car climbed the curb to teh demise of the right front corner. My question is what kind of expieriences have others had with knock retard systems? I'd think that by now this would have been refined some. >>> The knock system is subject to false knock indications and must be carefully calibrated for the various engine combos, sensor placement, etc. However, properly executed it works very well. On the '87 Turbo Regals the ECM processing of the knock system (ESC) signals can be programmed for retard attack rate, timing recovery rate, etc. Never will we see the timing retard linger for more than a brief instant though- you may have had a false knock problem? <<< From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:06:26 -0700 Subject: Ancient History He drilled the heads so that the untimed variable flow injector sprayed directly on the intake valve from the back side of the valve pocket. What was lacking in mechanical sophistication was made up in simple physics. ... From: "Tony Bryant" Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:53:10 +1200 Subject: Re: Ancient History ... What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve ... comments? >>> Comments? OK! :-) Get some forced induction and say "later" to all the big cam blues, and make more power to boot! True story: Kent Rudbeck of Muncie, Ind (one of many) runs 10.3x at near 130mph in his 231" V6 Turbo Regal. Cam specs at 0.050"? Duration- 200deg; lift- about 0.430". My Turbo Regal went 12.59 at 108.9 a few weeks ago with a ridiculously slow launch (taking it easy on it); mods from stock are minimal at best. Engine internals are pure stock; these times are typical for these cars. Well, sorry about the lumpy cam diatribe... We are getting some interesting EFI data during these 1/4 mile runs. We all appreciate the control potential that EFI gives us over the various engine parameters. But in reality there are lots of unexpected things going on. For example from the runs I made a few weeks ago I found that 1) my MAF sensor was maxed at 255 (8 bit) the entire run. 2) my injector duty cycle was 100% almost the entire run, even with injectors that are 25% larger than stock (36lb/hr vs 28lb/hr). So this means that the only things controlling the A/F during the run were airflow (boost) and base fuel pressure setting. Basically I could have wired the injectors "ON" to a twelve volt source and had exactly the same results! These static MAF and injector duty cycles at WOT are not uncommon; it's amazing how fast you can go, even when the EFI is out of control! As for spraying the back of the intake valve- that's typical as well. Interesting that many of the fuel injectors used these days make little attempt to atomize- what they fire is a stream, not a mist. You can make loads of power either way! Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 19:53:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01552; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:45:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01545; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:45:01 -0400 Received: from slip-69-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24220; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:44:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:44:25 -0500 Message-Id: <9609031944.AA24220@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >and gets 12mpg (city) using a Quadrajet 750cfm; I want to improve that to >15-17mpg. >Arnaldo E. >aec@ao.net > I think 12 mpg from a 455 is fantastic. Can't see how you get this good -- FI or carbed. What's your rear end ratio? tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01659; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:02:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01638; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:01:47 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03934 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032001.NAA03934@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Cams and FI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >My '73 914 just happens to have a high lift cam with a lot of overlap. >It won't idle decent below about 2000 rpm. To pass a smog check, I set >the lifters out to .030", and then it idles fine. Clatters like hell. >I've never had backfires with it. > >An additional problem is the low vacuum, about 12", below 2000 with >that engine. The Djet responds to low vacuum by squirting more fuel, >which makes it richer until it dies. I have found a fix for the ECU to >alter the fuel curve, but haven't tried it in the car yet. > >RD > Don't know if it's relevent, but we've run more radical cams than that regularly and get good idle at 1200-1300 rpm with a pissing in the wind system.(k) The accepted mythology is this can't be done, but being as we do it I have a tough time believing it. Our theory sez that as long as the pulsation isn't large enough to pressurize clear out to the barn door(cone) it don't matter what kind of cam you have. One of the guys has a 94 corvette, and he commented that one of the rabbits was faster than his vette.(125 horse nitrous on a rabbit is a REAL ride!:-) Don't know if 914 ever used pissing in wind with barn door systems. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01643; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:01:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01629; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:01:12 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03970 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032001.NAA03970@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey Ed, if you're the manifold guru for Ford, how come the manufacturers haven't gone to throttle bodies for each cylinder like on some of the vettes? I know the vettes are two intake per cyl. but the advantages are many with one valve also, and it can't cost very much when they're already using port inj. Heck it might even be cheaper, being as the current massive aluminum castings could be eliminated in place of plastic plumbing. ??????????????? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01658; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:02:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01622; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:01:02 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03843 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032000.NAA03843@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Bosch d disease Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:06:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 >I may be able to help you, Tom. I have a Djet tester, 17 years of >driving Djet 914's, lots of spares, psuedo-schematics, oscilloscope, >etc., and a distributor machine to do dynamic things. >What is the nature of your problem? > >RD What I've got is a Cadillac style V8-6-4. The way this happened is that the brain on my mercedes 4.5 started dropping a circuit or two of injectors, and now is to the point that it's so disgusting that I tore the rest of it apart for long put off tweaking. I came to this grandiose conclusion because I've checked everything else repeatedly and it checks good. My questions are a little ignorant as I don't mess with porsche's and air cooled vw's(they're to close to the ground):-> is are the d-jetronic systems they use equipped with four injector circuits? If so, do you think any of your schematics would be usefull in surgery? Dist. machine, ocilloscope... I'm jealous! From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01625; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:01:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01615; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:00:57 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03814 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032000.NAA03814@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: How tall is tall? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: Todd Knighton >Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 11:01:45 +0000 >Subject: Re: Knock sensors > >Tom, > My first question is, how tall are you really?!? ha, ha. Well, I'm getting old and shrinking, I'm down to 6'8" now. Being as you ask about me, The picture on the front of a $5 bill has been blown up and placed next to mine in a local newspaper, and I had long time friends insisting I am related to Lincoln. We use the knock sensors with the monitor from J&S to tune the engine >till there is no more knock showing, not to leave it run on it. A >properly calibrated engine should never see knock anyway! >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering Yeah, from what I've heard about that J&S stuff it sounds pretty neat. Kind of afraid to ask price, but I did make note of the address, and someday when in pain will inquire. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01641; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:01:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01624; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:01:03 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03865 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032000.NAA03865@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: d disease Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 >engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. > >With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake >stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the >other two cyls, so its operation is compromised. > >People on the 914fans lists have been debating the injector timing >question, so your post is being forwarded there. Hope you don't mind. > >RD If it's any help Mercedes applications I believe inject just before or slightly after intake valve opening. Here I'm really going to screw myself, but here goes. It would seem to me that one could use a mercedes brain on a four cylinder and set the points up so that the sequence you want is accomplished. All I ask for the idea is enough of the mercedes brains to keep me supplied before you guys grab them all up.:-) Just for those who aren't thoroughly neaseated yet, maybe I should mention the fact that we haven't checked into DIGIFANT yet! :-> From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:04:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01655; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:02:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01626; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:01:04 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-53.teleport.com [206.163.123.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03898 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609032000.NAA03898@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Mercedes mechanical Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >How about the real mechanical FI systems? Like off a '69 Mercedes coupe. >No I'm not talking about K-Jet, I talking something that looks like a >diesel fuel pump/distributor. I've only seen it in a workshop manual. > >Anybody with any experience with these, care to comment? Personally I'd never attempt to use one without duress. If anybody is so inclined however there are a few laying around here that could be had reasonable. I have a turbo bmw 6, with l-jetronic that's much safer $$$ wise. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:17:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01724; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:11:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01719; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:11:36 -0400 Received: from slip-69-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49382; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:10:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:10:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9609032010.AA49382@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: FORTH Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I've seen a few postings recently about FORTH, I've done a fair bit >of programming in FORTH, so as my first contribution here goes :- > >The microcontroller we used was an Hitachi H8, What is an H8?? I harken back to a Fairchild F8 (shudder). Seems it was either a 4 or 8-bit micro. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 20:28:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01752; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:23:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gate2.ntrs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01746; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:22:56 -0400 Received: by gate2.ntrs.com id AA12087 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 1.1 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:22:25 -0500 Received: by gate2.ntrs.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:22:25 -0500 Mr-Received: by mta TNTV2; Relayed; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 15:17:03 -0500 (CDT) Alternate-Recipient: prohibited Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:02:05 CDT From: "Terry McLane 312.630.0533" Subject: Bosch to Hitachi MAF To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:16:00 CDT Importance: normal Priority: normal Ua-Content-Id: C2542ZWLULTVAZ X400-Mts-Identifier: [;30715130906991/6136911@TNTVAX] A1-Type: MAIL Hop-Count: 0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Andrew Rabbitt wrote: >If 220CFM is 0V, then how is the ECU going to determine anything more >than that (ie: negative volts). The way it looks to me is your ECU is >limiting your airflow as much as your AFM. The voltage figures I quoted were only for purposes of example, but it should only be necessary to measure the air flow up to the engine's peak volumetric efficiency. This should cooincide with peak torque (3200 RPM @ WOT in my example). I assume there is no need for air measurement beyond this point as VE falls off at higher RPMS. In otherwords, the engine may use more air per second, but not more air per cylinder per injection event. Therefore a richer mixture would not be necessary. >>Like all other MAFs, the Hitachi unit (I presume it's a bypass unit >>similar to that fitted to the previous model Taurus, and many other >>Fords), is non-linear and therefore a 2-point calibration will not be >>adequate. You're right, I am interested in the bypass unit, due to its low restriction (low pressure drop). The air meter on my car uses a logarithmic potentiomter which is hooked to a "swinging door" suspended in the air stream (resistance is 200-400 ohms). Needless to say, it's very restrictive. Having read a couple of articles on the Hitachi unit used by Ford, I was under the assumption that it also used a 5 volt reference and a logarithmic output. It also doesn't require any other circuitry for "burn off" like other hot-wire MAFS. I figured that the Hitachi would allow higher airflow potential so if I could determine voltage output equivalent to peak torque and idle in my engine for both units, they could be swapped if a suitable mapping implementation could be found. As a bonus, the air meter also uses a thermistor to measure the air temperature, the Hitachi adjusts for temp/pressure automatically, - I thought I could hook up a trim potentiometer to substitute, giving me a straightforward rich/lean adjustment mechanism. Always looking for more adjustability. (I imagine the ECU is fairly sensitive to air temperature in this application). >>Also, at large throttle openings, the signal jumps around a bit, and >>the only way I know of getting around this is to purposely alias the >>signal by sampling synchronously at a pre-determined crank position. >>(I'm assuming a digital controller) Is this at constant high flow, or sudden openings? At constant values, shouldn't the closed loop mode of the ECU adjust? >>Setting this up is no easy task (speaking from experience here) and >>if you get it wrong, you'll likely be out by more than 100% in some >>areas of the speed-load map. Bear in mind that I have only a passing knowledge of electronics, my original question was based on the observation that it should be possible to build a simple circuit to map the low voltage and high voltage of each unit at a given air flow, and then interpolate. Obviously if there are other electronic "gremlins" present in the Hitachi MAF, this may not be feasible. I'd like to talk to you direct- can you respond with your e-mail address? ...Terry tm8@ntrs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 21:11:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01800; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:02:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01795; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:02:40 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial006h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.71]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id OAA27732 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322C3AA3.44E9@net-quest.com> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 14:03:15 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: K_knock sensor References: <9609031359.AA36260@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, For low compression or even mild compression that's okay. But, with high compression engines or turbocharged mild compression stuff your rattling will knock the rings right out of it. Sounds like you're doing this at partial loads, what does this method tell you about full throttle stuff. Is your vacuum advance, or computer chip for that matter, set up with the proper amount of retard so that your condition is correct at all other rpms and throttle positions, or only the one you happen to be at at that speed and throttle position. When I was 15, I used to set up my D-Jet 914 that way, and it seemed to work pretty good. Make a run, if it pings, retard it, if it doesn't advance it. You could get pretty good results. But then again that was a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder that made about 125 hp on a good day. Now I'm working with 3.6 to 3.8 liter 700 horsepower turbocharged engines that won't tolerate that kind of stuff. You'd grenade a high output engine if it pinged just once! Just ask Ford, when they were developing their 2.0 liter 4 cylinder turbo engine for GTP, they had a ignition glitch that only hit at high rpm and load and made the engine "rattle a little". Actually, they destroyed about 20 engines before they found the RF interference that was getting into the crank sensors and messing up the timing. But then again, I've heard a lot of Ford, Chrysler, and GM products running around the streets rattling like mad, and they seem to keep going. Low cylinder pressures I guess. The reason I told you about the J&S knock sensor is you can do exactly like your saying, but the knock sensor won't let it "rattle" it will just tell you how much it had to retart the timing to make it not "rattle". Then you can go retard the ignition by that amount. No damage done! Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering tom cloud wrote: > > I don't do the race circuit, only want to go fast some times > and just drive the others. The way I tune my toy is to set the > advance until I get a little rattling on long hills on hot days > (we have some of both of those) and back it off a little. > > So, Todd, or anyone else who cares to chip in, what's wrong > widdat? > > tom cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 21:34:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01841; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:24:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01836; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:24:52 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA06431 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:24:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199609032124.AA06431@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:24:46 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:24:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 17:24:41 -0400 From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Organization: V engine, Components B Department X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Throttle Body Sizing References: <199607241937.PAA26254@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> <31F6E6E6.74D9@rt66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 812 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Michael D. Porter commented on the throttle body sizing formula: > To further this thought, shouldn't the intake valves duration somehow >be included in this(calculation for throttle body sizing)? It is: that's why he includes volumetric efficiency(VE) in his formula. Problem is, without a dyno, you have to guess your V.E. >Who cares? Isn't the object to get as much velocity as possible? No, the object is minimize flow restrictions while optimising the opening rate. You are right: it is difficult to drive cars with big throttle bodies because at low throttle settings, a few degrees makes a huge difference in flow. OEMs get around this by designing cams into the throttle linkage to modify the opening rate at lower throttle settings. -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 22:02:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01948; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:55:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01942; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:54:58 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca20-20.ix.netcom.com [206.217.119.52]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA02120 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:54:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:54:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199609032154.OAA02120@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: Bosch d disease To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi talltom wrote: >>From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:06:45 -0700 >>Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 > >>I may be able to help you, Tom. I have a Djet tester, 17 years of >>driving Djet 914's, lots of spares, psuedo-schematics, oscilloscope, >>etc., and a distributor machine to do dynamic things. >>What is the nature of your problem? > What I've got is a Cadillac style V8-6-4. The way this happened is that the >brain on my mercedes 4.5 started dropping a circuit or two of injectors, and>now >is to the point that it's so disgusting that I tore the rest of it apart for >long put off tweaking. > I came to this grandiose conclusion because I've checked everything else>repeatedly and it checks good. > My questions are a little ignorant as I don't mess with porsche's and air>cooled>vw's(they're to close to the ground):-> is are the d-jetronic systems they use>equipped with four injector circuits? If so, do you think any of your schematics>would be useful in surgery? Dist. machine, ocilloscope... I'm jealous! Yeah, the Djet tester I have was made by EFI Associates LA. It can test the 8 cyl Merc, but I don't know if my harness will fit. Is your ECU about 8" x 12" and have the 25 pin connector on the end? If so, my tester should work. What part number is the ECU? I don't have much in the way of schematics, but that vintage electronics is my cup of tea. I could check your dist, too, and dynamically test its inj. contacts. The Djet in 4 cyl engines has just two injector circuits. I'm 6' and fit the 914, but my 6' 4" son hates it. You would need a bubble canopy. :) RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 22:12:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA02021; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:07:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02016; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:07:35 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca20-20.ix.netcom.com [206.217.119.52]) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA09980 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:07:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:07:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199609032207.PAA09980@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: Cams and FI To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I wrote: >>My '73 914 just happens to have a high lift cam with a lot of overlap. >>It won't idle decent below about 2000 rpm. To pass a smog check, I set >>the lifters out to .030", and then it idles fine. Clatters like hell. >>I've never had backfires with it. >> >>An additional problem is the low vacuum, about 12", below 2000 with >>that engine. The Djet responds to low vacuum by squirting more fuel, >>which makes it richer until it dies. I have found a fix for the ECU to >>alter the fuel curve, but haven't tried it in the car yet. Talltom replied: >Don't know if it's relevent, but we've run more radical cams than that regularly>and get good idle at 1200-1300 rpm with a pissing in the wind system.(k) The >accepted mythology is this can't be done, but being as we do it I have a tough >time believing it. Our theory sez that as long as the pulsation isn't large >enough to pressurize clear out to the barn door(cone) it don't matter what >kind of cam you have... > Don't know if 914 ever used pissing in wind with barn door systems. Yes, the 1.8 is Ljet, but my 2.0 with big cam is a 2.0 Djet. I am thinking of converting it to Ljet just to fix the idle. Last week I even put a barn door airbox in place of the aircleaner on my stock 2.0, and it created only one inch of vacc at WOT/5800, which is about 3% power loss per my charts. Is your 1200 idle with a 4 holer, or a V8? RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 22:13:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA02053; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:13:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02048; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:13:34 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca20-20.ix.netcom.com [206.217.119.52]) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23086 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:13:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:13:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199609032213.PAA23086@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: d disease To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I wrote: >>The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 >>engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. >>With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake >>stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the >>other two cyls, so its operation is compromised... >If it's any help Mercedes applications I believe inject just before or slightly >after intake valve opening. > Here I'm really going to screw myself, but here goes. It would seem to me that >one could use a mercedes brain on a four cylinder and set the points up so that>the sequence you want is accomplished. > All I ask for the idea is enough of the mercedes brains to keep me supplied>before you guys grab them all up.:-) Hey. super idea! Will the Merc dist. fit in the VW hole? I promise you the second V8 ECU I find. >Just for those who aren't thoroughly neaseated yet, maybe I should mention>the fact that we haven't checked into DIGIFANT yet! :-> What's Digifant? RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 22:35:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA02119; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:30:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02114; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:30:32 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.32) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:32:59 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Knock sensors Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:31:52 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1370357717-4639716@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Todd Knighton > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Knock sensors > Date: Monday, September 02, 1996 4:01 AM > > Tom, > My first question is, how tall are you really?!? ha, ha. > > I've found that if I run the ignition timing too close to the limit on > the dyno that the knock sensors hit, the runs will be very > inconsistent. But if the engine is set up properly, and the knock > sensors never need to do any thing then the engine performs well and > consistently. > Knock sensors are for worst case scenario's. Bad gas, carbon buildup, > impropper octane, exceedingly high temperatures. I've never found a > system that works well enough to let it run on the sensors. > We use the knock sensors with the monitor from J&S to tune the engine > till there is no more knock showing, not to leave it run on it. A > properly calibrated engine should never see knock anyway! > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering > > > > > I did a Corvette with a turbo on it and used a old buick spark retard > > system, and while it worked, I wasn't really very happy with it. It would > > retard 3 degrees for every clatter it didn't like, and hold it for 20-60 > > seconds. The problem was that it was inconsistent, back to back runs would Dumb Idea forming - maybe. By knock sensor, I assume we mean the knock caused by the fuel air mixture igniting prior to the timed spark - generally at medium load and rpm. Since this occurs before the timed spark, nothing you can do to the timed spark directly affects the knock. Retarding the spark lowers power thereby lowering the temp/pressure part of the equation - eliminates knock. Why not use the sensor to directly change a parameter that controls knock - temperature? Instead of retarding timing and losing power - why not richen mixture? More fuel - more evaporative cooling - lower temp - rat noww Richening mixture small amount has no negative effect on power. Early turbos (pre EFI and intercoolers) often ran as high as 40% rich to cool the charge to keep from detonating. Simple algorithm - already have feedback loop for O2 sensor. Step bang the correction a fixed ammout richer. O2 sensor corrects back over time. No more knock, no power loss, far less critical to tune, no need to f with ignition timing and if it false alarms - worst effect is lowered fuel mileage. Just a thought for what its worth From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 3 23:44:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA02215; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:42:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA02210; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:42:29 -0400 Received: from Default (port25.tserver1.ao.net [205.244.242.125]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA19349 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:43:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:43:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199609032343.TAA19349@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:44 PM 9/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >I think 12 mpg from a 455 is fantastic. Can't see how you get this >good -- FI or carbed. What's your rear end ratio? > >tom OK, I new I'd get some mail when I said that, so for the curious, my car is a: '78 Trans Am 1970 455 2bolt main from a Bonneville stored heads from that motor (10.25:1 cr too high) HEADS: using 6X heads (2.11", 1.66" I think) approx CR between 9.0:1 to 9.6:1 (too much conflicting info) CAM: .444/.465 lift, hydraulic, stock rockers. Manifold: stock 4bbl headers (1 7/8"), flowmaster transverse muffler (2 little mufflers inside one big case, 2 1/2" tubing) Best time with old rotten 245/60/15 Grand Prix tires: 13.3 @ 107mph (75degree weather) (This is in Orlando, Fl) Best time with new 295x50x15 BF radial t/a's: call me next week. Tranny: TH400, just rebuilt Torque converter: $20 new unit. can't be that good. REAR END: 3.08 posi (to answer your question...) Actual mileage: 11-12 city if the secondaries don't open. <9 if the foot gets heavy :) 12.5 - 13 highway, cruising at 2600rpm, which is about 65mph. 11 mpg cruising at 3200rpm, or about 80mph (and yes, speedometer error is accounted for, I'm not one of those 30mpg 5.0L owner ---- but then again, two years ago in car craft some guy with a 455 got 20MPG(??!) in one of the real street eliminators. Yeah right! ..or did you see the buick turbo v-6 that got 48mpg and ran low 13's in the 1/4 mile?) timing: 10 degrees with 87 octane gas, 12-14 with 93 gas (with vacuum advance) CARB: quadrajunk 4bbl 750cfm (got it for free at junkyard, I've rebuilt it; actually it works pretty good but gas mileage still sad) .....when I had the holley 600cfm vacuum secondary carb, I couldn't break into the teens for gas mileage. Holleys suck for gas mileage.(besides the fact that the carb was too small) Weight of car: 3720 w/out driver I'm actually considering lowering the rear end ratio some more. I've had good luck with ultra-low geared cars and long stroke engines. For example, I used to have a '83 trans am with: 305 (believe it or not, relatively speaking, big stroke vs bore) .465/.488 cam 9.8:1 cr (93 octane gas only on this one) t-5 2.73 gears (!!!!!) --> final drive ratio: 2.06:1. This car would go 72mph at 1900RPM in 5th. Everyone would tell me that ohh it'll kill the engine it'll lug it it can't handle it bull! With time slips to prove: 14.3 @ 102mph 21 mpg (with a HOLLEY! My friend had a similar setup with a Q-jet and got 23mpg) ...now that car was a BLAST to drive..... (sorry to get off topic) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 01:45:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02705; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:42:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02700; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:42:27 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx17-11.teleport.com (ip-pdx17-11.teleport.com [206.163.124.11]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08696 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609040141.SAA08696@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: D disease Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:54:56 -0700 >Subject: Re: Bosch d disease > >talltom wrote: >>>From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >>>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:06:45 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #256 >> >>>I may be able to help you, Tom. I have a Djet tester, 17 years of >>>driving Djet 914's, lots of spares, psuedo-schematics, oscilloscope, >>>etc., and a distributor machine to do dynamic things. >>>What is the nature of your problem? > >> What I've got is a Cadillac style V8-6-4. The way this happened is >that the >brain on my mercedes 4.5 started dropping a circuit or two of >injectors, and>now >is to the point that it's so disgusting that I tore >the rest of it apart for >long put off tweaking. >> I came to this grandiose conclusion because I've checked everything >else>repeatedly and it checks good. >> My questions are a little ignorant as I don't mess with porsche's >and air>cooled>vw's(they're to close to the ground):-> is are the >d-jetronic systems they use>equipped with four injector circuits? If >so, do you think any of your schematics>would be useful in surgery? >Dist. machine, ocilloscope... I'm jealous! > >Yeah, the Djet tester I have was made by EFI Associates LA. It can >test the 8 cyl Merc, but I don't know if my harness will fit. Is your >ECU about 8" x 12" and have the 25 pin connector on the end? If so, my >tester should work. What part number is the ECU? I don't have much in >the way of schematics, but that vintage electronics is my cup of tea. Yep! All of the above. Weighs about 15 pounds too! I'll get the number for you soon. >I could check your dist, too, and dynamically test its inj. contacts. I've had it apart twice and I don't think that's the problem, but it's nice info in case I'm wrong.(NEVER!) >The Djet in 4 cyl engines has just two injector circuits. I'm 6' and >fit the 914, but my 6' 4" son hates it. You would need a bubble >canopy. :) I suspect the reason your son hates it has to do more with his age than his size. Am I right? Is this a teenager? >RD > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 01:45:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02698; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:42:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02642; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:42:01 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx17-11.teleport.com (ip-pdx17-11.teleport.com [206.163.124.11]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08672 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609040141.SAA08672@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > How important that is depnds on how well >calibrated the seat of your pants is or how important that last 0.01 in >the 1/4 mile is. Having been refered to as a hemroid, I'm glad to see that somebody else thinks hemroid sensitivity is usefull!:-) >Therefore another approach is to outrun the fuse, >which fast burn combustion chambers can do. Anyone notice how high the >compression ratios of modern 4V engines (and even some 2V) are getting? Yes I have and I'm pissed! Would you say that is due to combustion chamber design, or to more precise tuning capability? While I've got your attention, have you seen the throttle valve the later vw's are using? It looks like anything else, but when you look close the blade fits into a recess machined into the bore, kind of like a ball valve. To me it looks like this setup would eleviate the harsh throttle opening at the bottom end and allow full sail in an individual cylinder basis. Whaddya think? >Ed Hernandez, still catching up... >Ford Motor Company >ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com Bye the way, bullistic bottom end throttle response can be fun. Loaned my car to girl who had dropped her clutch and couldn't drive without clutch.(georgous redhead!-) I followed her home in her car being as I could drive it without clutch. When I asked her why she was in such a hurry that she smoked the tires and gas was flying out the back(somebody had stolen the gas cap) she said she wasn't used to the throttle and didn't have that problem with her Datsun. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 01:46:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02732; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:45:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02711; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:45:41 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA10383 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:45:38 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11057; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:31:44 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11057; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:31:44 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00162; Wed, 4 Sep 96 09:31:53 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041331.AA00162@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:31:44 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Ancient History Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it >>burns. All forms of carboration - including fuel injection - atomize >>the fuel hoping enough vapor will be formed to start combustion so >>that the heat and violence of combustion will finish the job. Power >>and fuel efficiency are directly related to how well that is done. >Um, sorry. Gasoline vapor explodes, it does not burn. Liqiud gasoline >burns.... You definitely DO want to minimise the vapourisation of fuel until the inlet valves are closed. When fuel vapourises its density drops by a couple of orders of magnitude, displacing air and reducing your effective Volumetric efficiency. All the applications that Robert J. Harris quoted in his original post were high-speed, high power applications, and sequential fuelling is not going to give you anything here. What sequential injection does give is better low speed, part load combustion stability leading to better real-world driveability. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 02:33:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02825; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:31:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02820; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:31:41 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp7.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.229]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA07879 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:30:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:30:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609040230.VAA07879@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:44 PM 9/3/96 -0500, you wrote: > >>and gets 12mpg (city) using a Quadrajet 750cfm; I want to improve that to >>15-17mpg. > >>Arnaldo E. >>aec@ao.net >> > >I think 12 mpg from a 455 is fantastic. Can't see how you get this >good -- FI or carbed. What's your rear end ratio? > >tom > Damn skippy, I got 8mpg city (carbed), 13mpg city (GM TBI) with a 350 small block chevy 2.73 gears on a full size chevy truck. If you want really big mpg increases try the 700R tranny. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 02:33:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02818; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:31:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02813; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:31:12 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp7.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.229]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA07868 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:30:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:30:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609040230.VAA07868@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: water injection & detonation supression Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Gentlemen, OEMs use exhaust gas to supress detonation, right? Exhaust gas recirculation systems to be exact, EGR. This seams superior to water injection. Is it? gmd From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 03:28:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA02892; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:24:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02887; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:24:31 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca8-25.ix.netcom.com [204.31.251.89]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA09343 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:24:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:24:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199609040324.UAA09343@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Somebody smart wrote: >>Therefore another approach is to outrun the fuse, >>which fast burn combustion chambers can do. Anyone notice how high the>>compression ratios of modern 4V engines (and even some 2V) are getting? Talltom replied: >Yes I have and I'm pissed! Would you say that is due to combustion chamber>design,>or to more precise tuning capability? I have read that the big reason for four valves is to get the spark right in the center. Flame front has much shorter distance to travel, meaning higher compression without detonation. You could probably get the same effect with four spark plugs per cyl. BTW, I believe detonation is what happens after spark but the mix explodes before the flame can travel far enough to get the whole mix burning. Pre-ignition is another phenomenon in which hot parts or diesel effect ignite the mix before spark. That's as I understand it. Comments? >While I've got your attention, have you seen the throttle valve the >later>vw's are using? It looks like anything else, but when you look >close the>blade fits into a recess machined into the bore, kind of >like a ball valve. >To me it looks like this setup would alleviate the harsh throttle >opening at>the bottom end and allow full sail in an individual >cylinder basis. Whaddya think? I think I'll take a look for myself. What year VW? RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 04:50:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02972; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 04:43:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA02967; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:43:21 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial009h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.74]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id VAA20654 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322CA6B2.354F@net-quest.com> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:44:18 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: J&S Knock Sensor Costs References: <199609032000.NAA03814@desiree.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi talltom wrote: > Yeah, from what I've heard about that J&S stuff it sounds pretty neat. Kind > of afraid to ask price, but I did make note of the address, and someday when > in pain will inquire. > About $325.00 with monitor, I think. \Costs less than a set of pistons and rings! Todd From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 04:52:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02985; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 04:50:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA02980; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:50:34 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial009h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.74]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id VAA22277 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322CA866.6DD0@net-quest.com> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:51:34 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Knock sensors References: <1370357717-4639716@uia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Robert J. Harris wrote: > > Dumb Idea forming - maybe. By knock sensor, I assume we mean > the knock caused by the fuel air mixture igniting prior to the timed > spark - generally at medium load and rpm. Since this occurs before > the timed spark, nothing you can do to the timed spark directly > affects the knock. Retarding the spark lowers power thereby > lowering the temp/pressure part of the equation - eliminates > knock. Nope, we were talking about knock caused by ignition timing being set too early, not Pre-ignition caused by hot spots, carbon buildup, or improper heat range of spark plugs. > > Why not use the sensor to directly change a parameter that > controls knock - temperature? Instead of retarding timing and > losing power - why not richen mixture? More fuel - more evaporative > cooling - lower temp - rat noww > > Richening mixture small amount has no negative effect on power. > Early turbos (pre EFI and intercoolers) often ran as high as 40% rich > to cool the charge to keep from detonating. > > Simple algorithm - already have feedback loop for O2 sensor. Step > bang the correction a fixed ammout richer. O2 sensor corrects back > over time. No more knock, no power loss, far less critical to tune, > no need to f with ignition timing and if it false alarms - worst effect is > lowered fuel mileage. > > Just a thought for what its worth this all might work for pre-ignition, but not the knock sensing we're talking about. Though, richening the mixture does tend to slow the burn rate of the mixture, thus even if the timing is set too early, it typically won't knock. Talk to Autothority about this, they're the kings of too much advance and too much fuel. Maybe that's how they get those magical 25% increases over stock! ;) Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:03:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03023; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:00:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03018; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:00:15 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial009h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.74]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id WAA24369 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322CAAA8.6000@net-quest.com> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:01:12 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Data/Spec. Sheets References: <9609031414.AA38574@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, Motorola has a lot of data sheets on their MPX4250A, etc. line of pressure transducers we've been using. National Semiconductor will send you free LM1949N's for injector drivers. Cherry Semiconductor is more proud of theirs, but will send you all the data sheets you want. I understand that GM and Ford both used these drivers on their throttle body injection stuff. The MAF's are a tough one. There used to be a book, called the "Bosch Bible" by most, been looking for it too. It used to give specs on all their stuff. Now the only way you can get parts is to know the car it came off of. If any one knows where to get this Bosch spec book let me know. Throttle position sensors are pretty self explanatory. Temp sensors typically all follow the same curves, pull a curve out of an oem to linearize it, then convert directly to deg C or F or whatever your fancy. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering tom cloud wrote: > > Can anyone shed light on where to get data on the various transducers > used in EFI systems? (esp. EGA, MAP, MAF, etc.) > > I would like to find data on specific auto makers' components. They > obviously have the data and I cannot see any reason why they would care > if individuals have it -- can't be trade secret. Their engineers have > to have access to it. It's gotta be published somewhere. > > Can anyone help ? (Todd ?) > > Thanks, > Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:19:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03060; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:14:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03055; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:14:14 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id PAA27368 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:14:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA20668; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:02:38 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA20668; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:02:38 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AB00182; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:00:42 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041700.AB00182@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:00:30 est To: diy_efi Subject: Data/Spec. Sheets Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Can anyone shed light on where to get data on the various transducers >used in EFI systems? (esp. EGA, MAP, MAF, etc.) Talk direct to the guys at Bosch, Siemens, Nippondenso, Hitachi, CTS, Colvern etc about any of their gear. Just fax them with a professional looking note asking them for data sheets on X, Y or Z and they'll probably reply. They are out to do business after all. Just don't tell them how small your business is in the first instance! :) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:30:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03087; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:28:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03082; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:28:34 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA08330; Wed, 4 Sep 96 12:27:11 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA841868564 Wed, 04 Sep 96 13:22:44 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 13:22:44 Message-Id: <9608048418.AA841868564@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: water injection & detonation supression Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi If that's the case it would be great if the EGR could be controlled. ie knock sensor runs a normal bypass solenoid, and opens it when knocking is detected to let enough exhaust gas in to eliminate pinging.. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: water injection & detonation supression Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/4/96 12:46 PM Gentlemen, OEMs use exhaust gas to supress detonation, right? Exhaust gas recirculation systems to be exact, EGR. This seams superior to water injection. Is it? gmd From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:48:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03132; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:45:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03117; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:45:19 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id PAA00150 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:45:17 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21890; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:36:44 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21890; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:36:44 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AB00183; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:39:04 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041739.AB00183@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:38:46 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Knock sensors Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Dumb Idea forming - maybe. By knock sensor, I assume we mean >the knock caused by the fuel air mixture igniting prior to the timed >spark - generally at medium load and rpm. Since this occurs before >the timed spark, nothing you can do to the timed spark directly >affects the knock. Retarding the spark lowers power thereby >lowering the temp/pressure part of the equation - eliminates >knock. this is pre-ignition (which is not the same as knock) and is caused by hot-spots on the combustion chamber surface. Knock is caused by (or so the accepted theory goes - see Heywood for the full explaination) high pressure, heat from the charge, and heat from the radiation of the flame causing areas in the combustion chamber to spontaneously ignite, before the flame front passes thru. By retarding spark, peak cylinder pressure is reduced, thereby removing one of the factors causing the spontaneous ignition. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:48:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03142; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:47:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03137; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:47:24 -0400 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc47.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.47]) by mail.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id XAA03228 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:47:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609040547.XAA03228@mail.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:48:38 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Data/Spec. Sheets Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 22:01 9/3/96 +0000, you wrote: > The MAF's are a tough one. I currently have the curves for three Bosch MAF's .. Derived by actual flowtesting of the MAF .. These are 12v supplied Hot Film Mass Air sensors with four wires, 12+, gnd, signal, and sig. common They do NOT use a 5v ref .. The three I have max out at 5v at the following airflows 820kg/hr, 80mm diam. 860kg/hr, 89mm diam. 1300kg/hr, 89mm diam. If anyone really needs them, I've got 'em! .. Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:48:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03133; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:45:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03115; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:45:16 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id PAA00136 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:45:14 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21035; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:11:48 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21035; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:11:48 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AE00185; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:10:56 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041710.AE00185@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:10:46 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: water injection & detonation supression Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Gentlemen, OEMs use exhaust gas to supress detonation, right? Exhaust >gas recirculation systems to be exact, EGR. This seams superior to >water injection. Is it? EGR is primarily used for NOx control, although it is a variable that is sometimes manipulated for knock suppression. It works by increasing the specific heat of the charge, hence reducing the overall combustion temperature. Water injection works in the same way. EGR enters the cylinder in the gas phase (as opposed to liquid), displacing air hence reducing the effective volumetric efficiency. This is OK (beneficial actually) at part-load, but not WOT. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 05:48:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03134; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:45:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA03119; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:45:20 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id PAA00141 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:45:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21491; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:26:47 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA21491; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:26:47 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00184; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:29:09 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041729.AA00184@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:28:58 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: hi compressions Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Somebody smart wrote: >>>Therefore another approach is to outrun the fuse, >>>which fast burn combustion chambers can do. Anyone notice how high >the>>compression ratios of modern 4V engines (and even some 2V) are >getting? >Talltom replied: >>Yes I have and I'm pissed! Would you say that is due to combustion >>chamber design, or to more precise tuning capability? >I have read that the big reason for four valves is to get the spark >right in the center. Flame front has much shorter distance to >travel, meaning higher compression without detonation. You could >probably get the same effect with four spark plugs per cyl. BTW, I >believe detonation is what happens after spark but the mix explodes >before the flame can travel far enough to get the whole mix burning. Mixture preparation has a lot to do with it. If you atomise smaller, the burn-rate is faster, and thus you get the same torque with retarded ignition. This allows you to run a high compression ratio, giving efficiency gains in areas where you're not spark limited for MBT. Charge motion is also a big player in mixture preparation. With four valves (nothwithstanding the advantages of increased valve area), you can arrange what is known as 'tumble' which is akin to (but arguably better than) 'swirl' in a 2-V design. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 06:17:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA03206; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:16:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA03201; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:16:00 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id QAA03184 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:15:56 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22233; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:46:44 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22233; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:46:44 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00132; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:46:41 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609041746.AA00132@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:46:32 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Ancient History Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical >> cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve >> gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? >> Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) >> But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied >> to the cylinder? > >As Ralph pointed out, the vacuum goes down at lower rpm due to valve >overlap. A vacuum responsive FI would make the mixture too rich for >the engine to run. I think carburators are more tolerant of this low >vacuum at low rpm because they are passive devices and because they >are less precise in fuel metering. carbs don't use manifold vacuum to meter fuel. All they use is the depression created by airflow through a metering venturi. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 07:59:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA03310; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:55:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA03305; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:55:40 -0400 Received: from arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (arthur) by lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au with SMTP id AA03984 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:54:46 +1000 Received: from slip-23.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (slip-23) by arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au with SMTP id AA01997 (5.67a/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:55:25 +1000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:55:25 +1000 Message-Id: <199609040755.AA01997@arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au> X-Sender: jpronk@arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jeremy Subject: re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 01:46 PM 9/4/96 est, you wrote: > >>> What I want to know, is what happens when you have radical >>> cam timing? This nice puddle of fuel on the inlet valve >>> gets blown back up the inlet duct when the valve opens? >>> Makes nice flames, if you don't run an air cleaner :-) >>> But this surely can't make for repeatable fuel volume supplied >>> to the cylinder? >> >>As Ralph pointed out, the vacuum goes down at lower rpm due to valve >>overlap. A vacuum responsive FI would make the mixture too rich for >>the engine to run. I think carburators are more tolerant of this low >>vacuum at low rpm because they are passive devices and because they >>are less precise in fuel metering. > >carbs don't use manifold vacuum to meter fuel. All they use is the >depression created by airflow through a metering venturi. How about SU carbys? Dont the pistons get sucked up according to manifold vacuum? Jeremy From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 08:41:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA03362; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:36:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA03357; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 04:36:29 -0400 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id KAA16379; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:36:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sputnic.jrt.se(192.71.169.4) by valle.nexus.se via smap (V3.1.1) id xma016375; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:36:01 +0200 Received: (from jr@localhost) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA11088 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:32:58 +0100 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:32:58 +0100 From: Johan Rodling Message-Id: <199609040932.KAA11088@sputnic.jrt.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Air flow calculation X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi out there! I'm doing some calculation on a EFI based on Motorola 68HC11. At this stage it seems as it would work up to about 10k-12k rpm's and up to V12 engins. Now, my problem is that I dont know how to calculate the air flow. So, if anybody knows the formula for this, please let me know. Yes I know of Bowlings web page, but I'd rather have the math's. Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR '74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 09:17:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA03437; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA03432; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:14:10 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I92FWKQUE800009K@UALR.EDU>; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 04:12:17 CDT Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:14:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Ancient History To: diy_efi Message-id: <296118.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> I'm interested to learn more about when should I inject fuel for best -> power and when -> should I do so for best efficiency. It seems that a Hillborn system -> just dumps fuel and fuel guaranteeing full combustion but at the -> expense of efficiency. Once you go to full throttle the injector pulsewidth should approach 100%; basically the injector is on all the time. At idle and low RPM the injector timing makes a small difference, but it's mostly an emissions thing. Lots of quite efficient cars simply batch left bank, right bank, and to hell with trying to time it. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 10:07:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA03510; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:03:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA03505; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:03:18 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.203]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08894; Wed, 4 Sep 96 11:57:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 11:57:09 +0200 Message-Id: <9609040957.AA08894@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: Re: J&S Knock Sensor Costs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello Todd where i can get it??? Give-me an e-mail with all you it's possible about this . Thanks PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') >talltom wrote: > >> Yeah, from what I've heard about that J&S stuff it sounds pretty neat. Kind >> of afraid to ask price, but I did make note of the address, and someday when >> in pain will inquire. >> > > About $325.00 with monitor, I think. \Costs less than a set of pistons >and rings! > >Todd > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 11:52:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03612; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:41:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03607; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:41:12 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04205 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:43:29 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA16779; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:41:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Really long water injection post, $0.04 worth In-Reply-To: <199609031634.AA29699@internet-mail2.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Edward C. Hernandez wrote: > >...an article involving water injection to reduce detonation. My >question is: What happened to this wonderful idea? I saw an ad toward >the back of the magazine in which Edelbrock that was selling their >Vari-Injection > > I've been running my Vari-Jection unit for 6 years without problems. Does Edelbrock still sell these? How much do they run? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 12:06:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03637; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:55:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03632; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:55:44 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04255 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:58:00 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA17550; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: tall drivers In-Reply-To: <199609040141.SAA08696@desiree.teleport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, talltom wrote: > > >The Djet in 4 cyl engines has just two injector circuits. I'm 6' and > >fit the 914, but my 6' 4" son hates it. You would need a bubble > >canopy. :) > > I suspect the reason your son hates it has to do more with his age than his > size. Am I right? Is this a teenager? > I'm 6'3" and I fit into my 914 just fine. Of course, a 928 is even more comfy, but that's another story.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 12:06:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03646; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:58:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03641; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:58:29 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04268 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:00:45 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA17688; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:58:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: water injection & detonation supression In-Reply-To: <199609040230.VAA07868@ns.tecinfo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: > Gentlemen, OEMs use exhaust gas to supress detonation, right? Exhaust gas > recirculation systems to be exact, EGR. This seams superior to water > injection. Is it? > I thought EGR was strickly for reduced exhaust emmisions? I would think that the hot exhaust gas would heat up the intake such that it would increase the likelihood of detonation. Water injection would cool the intake air, making it denser. Of course, for real density, these's nothing like nitrous! **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 12:23:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA03697; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:11:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03692; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:11:49 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04310 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:14:05 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA18702; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 In-Reply-To: <199609040324.UAA09343@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, RD Rick wrote: > > I have read that the big reason for four valves is to get the spark > right in the center. > That's as I understand it. Comments? According to Mr. Mackerle, of "Air Cooled Motor Engines:" "More advantages are offered by the use of a hemispherical combustion chamber with inclined valves. The exhaist valve of such a layout can be efficiently cooled on the whole of its circumference. The maximum flow area is about 32% at the inlet valve and 22.3% at the exhaust valve. Small changes can still be made by altering the respective sizes of the valves and by construction details. The conditions prevailing with aluminum alloy heads, in which inserted valve seats are used of necessity, are probably less favorable. "By the use of a "pent roof" four-valve cylinder head layout, the flow area at the exhaust valve seats may also be increased to about 32% of the piston crown area. The coefficient of flow through the ports is however less favorable than in the forgoing case (hemispherical combustion chamber), for flow is restricted by the close proximity of two valves and on the outer side also by the vertical wall." Hope this helps **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 14:19:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA04543; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:06:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04538; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:06:06 -0400 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:05:27 +0200 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA02736; Wed, 4 Sep 96 16:05:24 +0200 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:05:27 +0200 To: DIY_EFI From: walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Subject: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can anyone tell me more about the frequency sprectrum from the knock sensor? How does it looks like? Does it look so at every case of knocking? (high speed, bad fuel and so) or is it different? How different or what spectrum? How to interpret this signal? Frequency, intensity or what? Electronic work like filters? Many thanks Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:12:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04654; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:04:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04649; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:04:47 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial008h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.73]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA12570 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322D385B.1091@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:05:47 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History References: <199609040755.AA01997@arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >carbs don't use manifold vacuum to meter fuel. All they use is the > >depression created by airflow through a metering venturi. > > How about SU carbys? Dont the pistons get sucked up according to > manifold vacuum? > They also use a velocity across a variable venturi to create it's own depression (hence vacuum) though not directly the manifold vacuum. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:29:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04695; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:19:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04690; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:19:16 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial008h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.73]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA15236 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322D3BBE.18FC@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:20:14 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History References: <296118.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Once you go to full throttle the injector pulsewidth should approach > 100%; basically the injector is on all the time. At idle and low RPM > the injector timing makes a small difference, but it's mostly an > emissions thing. Lots of quite efficient cars simply batch left bank, > right bank, and to hell with trying to time it. > If you run the injectors beyond 80% dwell, they become erratic and the flow rates go to hell. Stay below 80% and you'll make your engine much happier. Also, if you're running above 80%, you can burn your driver circuitry out prematurely. As well as, at idle and low rpm, small changes in injector timing make a hell of a lot more difference than at high rpm. It's the percentage thing. for example Idle timing 1.5ms change timing .5ms that's a 30% change Full throttle timing 10ms change timing .5ms that's only a 5% change Low numbers are much more critical. Even worse are high rpms, light throttle. At 6000 rpm's there's only 10ms from TDC to TDC, and if you're looking for 8 bit resolution you're alread into the 1.25ms per step, go 10 bit resolution and you're looking at 9 microsecond resolution. Where at 600 rpm's you've got 100ms from TDC to TDC and ten times the time to work with. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:29:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04707; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:22:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04702; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:22:05 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial008h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.73]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA16107 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322D3C3C.3C27@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:23:05 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: J&S Knock Sensor Costs References: <9609040957.AA08894@netline.totobit.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Had you followed the DIY list, I've posted it about 4 times, but here it is again. J&S Electronics (714) 534-6975 13925 parway Drive Garden Grove, CA 92643 fontana pasquale wrote: > > Hello Todd > where i can get it??? > > Give-me an e-mail with all you it's possible about this . > > Thanks > > PASQUALE > *** > ** \||/ > * * ('') > > >talltom wrote: > > > >> Yeah, from what I've heard about that J&S stuff it sounds pretty neat. Kind > >> of afraid to ask price, but I did make note of the address, and someday when > >> in pain will inquire. > >> > > > > About $325.00 with monitor, I think. \Costs less than a set of pistons > >and rings! > > > >Todd > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:30:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04720; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:25:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04714; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:25:07 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA04665; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:25:04 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9A85.DC51D920@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:24:00 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9A85.DC51D920@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'RD Rick'" Subject: RE: d disease Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:48:37 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Durrr me dunno either, what is DIGIFANT? Mark ---------- From: RD Rick[SMTP:rickydik@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 1996 12:14 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: d disease I wrote: >>The Djet and Ljet EFI in the aircooled opposed VW and Porsche 914 >>engines sprays directly at the intake valve from three inches away. >>With the Djet, the fuel is squirted in at the beginning of the intake >>stroke two of the cyls, and at the beginning of the power stroke on the >>other two cyls, so its operation is compromised... >If it's any help Mercedes applications I believe inject just before or slightly >after intake valve opening. > Here I'm really going to screw myself, but here goes. It would seem to me that >one could use a mercedes brain on a four cylinder and set the points up so that>the sequence you want is accomplished. > All I ask for the idea is enough of the mercedes brains to keep me supplied>before you guys grab them all up.:-) Hey. super idea! Will the Merc dist. fit in the VW hole? I promise you the second V8 ECU I find. >Just for those who aren't thoroughly neaseated yet, maybe I should mention>the fact that we haven't checked into DIGIFANT yet! :-> What's Digifant? RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:30:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04726; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:25:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04721; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:25:30 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA04658; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:25:00 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9A85.DA066280@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:23:56 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9A85.DA066280@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au'" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:42:58 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In that case, how did the early wick carbs work? Mark ---------- From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au[SMTP:RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 1996 11:32 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Ancient History >> Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it >>burns. All forms of carboration - including fuel injection - atomize >>the fuel hoping enough vapor will be formed to start combustion so >>that the heat and violence of combustion will finish the job. Power >>and fuel efficiency are directly related to how well that is done. >Um, sorry. Gasoline vapor explodes, it does not burn. Liqiud gasoline >burns.... You definitely DO want to minimise the vapourisation of fuel until the inlet valves are closed. When fuel vapourises its density drops by a couple of orders of magnitude, displacing air and reducing your effective Volumetric efficiency. All the applications that Robert J. Harris quoted in his original post were high-speed, high power applications, and sequential fuelling is not going to give you anything here. What sequential injection does give is better low speed, part load combustion stability leading to better real-world driveability. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:42:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04869; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:39:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dell2.us.dell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id LAA04864; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:39:08 -0400 Received: from ccmail2.dell.com (ccmail2.us.dell.com [143.166.233.35]) by dell2.us.dell.com (8.6.11/DELL-INET-3-28-95) with SMTP id KAA26849; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:37:45 -0500 Received: by ccmail2.dell.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01686; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:33:21 -0500 Date: 4 Sep 96 10:33 CDT X400-Trace: us*attmail*dell computer; Arrival 4 Sep 96 10:33 CDT Action: Relayed Priority: normal P1-Message-Id: us*attmail*dell computer;0841851198/2027531932/1 Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text P1-Recipients: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu,owner-diy_efi-outgoing@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Terry Sare To: diy_efi, owner-diy_efi-outgoing Message-Id: <@m400gw.dell.com> Subject: Re[2]: Knock sensors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The TI web page has a app note on building a DSP based knock detection system. The web page is www.ti.com and to get to the app notes you have to request a password. The app note is spra039.pdf and has the formulas etc. No code though. TS Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Todd Knighton > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Knock sensors > Date: Monday, September 02, 1996 4:01 AM > > Tom, > My first question is, how tall are you really?!? ha, ha. > > I've found that if I run the ignition timing too close to the limit on > the dyno that the knock sensors hit, the runs will be very > inconsistent. But if the engine is set up properly, and the knock > sensors never need to do any thing then the engine performs well and > consistently. > Knock sensors are for worst case scenario's. Bad gas, carbon buildup, > impropper octane, exceedingly high temperatures. I've never found a > system that works well enough to let it run on the sensors. > We use the knock sensors with the monitor from J&S to tune the engine > till there is no more knock showing, not to leave it run on it. A > properly calibrated engine should never see knock anyway! > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering > > > > > I did a Corvette with a turbo on it and used a old buick spark retard > > system, and while it worked, I wasn't really very happy with it. It would > > retard 3 degrees for every clatter it didn't like, and hold it for 20-60 > > seconds. The problem was that it was inconsistent, back to back runs would Dumb Idea forming - maybe. By knock sensor, I assume we mean the knock caused by the fuel air mixture igniting prior to the timed spark - generally at medium load and rpm. Since this occurs before the timed spark, nothing you can do to the timed spark directly affects the knock. Retarding the spark lowers power thereby lowering the temp/pressure part of the equation - eliminates knock. Why not use the sensor to directly change a parameter that controls knock - temperature? Instead of retarding timing and losing power - why not richen mixture? More fuel - more evaporative cooling - lower temp - rat noww Richening mixture small amount has no negative effect on power. Early turbos (pre EFI and intercoolers) often ran as high as 40% rich to cool the charge to keep from detonating. Simple algorithm - already have feedback loop for O2 sensor. Step bang the correction a fixed ammout richer. O2 sensor corrects back over time. No more knock, no power loss, far less critical to tune, no need to f with ignition timing and if it false alarms - worst effect is lowered fuel mileage. Just a thought for what its worth From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 15:57:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04914; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:53:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04909; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:53:19 -0400 From: SnoMo1@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04327 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:53:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:53:18 -0400 Message-ID: <960904115254_277033504@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Gentlemen, I have been on this list for some time now, and have found your discussions informative, and interesting. This latest thread (discussions of gas milage from a big block) has finally prompted me to ask a question. Why is it a 3500 lb big block car can get 12mpg when on the other end of the weight (and size) spectrum, my parents have a 14,000 +lb motorhome powered by a 454 chevy (tbi), with ovedrive, 5.13 ? gears, 20" wheels (rim dia) , and the areodynamics of a house, and still get 10-11mpg on the highway. And, when pulling a towed 3700lb vehicle (Brono II 4x4) they still get 8-10mpg. This has been documented over 10's of thousands of miles. And yet, if I buy a full size truck with 4-wheel drive and a 5.0 to 5.8 litre V-8, I can only excpect 16mpg? Do you think that possibly many vehicles are being over-geared? I recently changed the gears on my 2.8 L ford ranger from 3.73 to 4.11 and actually saw a slight increase in mileage. I think this was cause by always having the foot to the floor. Now, the engine revs higher, but I notice the pedal isn't constantly kissing the carpet. And, by the way I did take into account the odometer error after changing the gears (plural, 4-wheel drive makes changing gears a pain!). Just thinking outloud again, Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 16:47:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA05212; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:42:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05207; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:42:29 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA03660 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:42:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199609041642.AA03660@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:42:27 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:42:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:42:22 -0400 From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Organization: V engine, Components B Department X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) References: <199609032001.NAA03970@desiree.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1716 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi talltom wrote: > > Hey Ed, if you're the manifold guru for Ford, how come the > manufacturers haven't gone to throttle bodies for each cylinder like > on some of the vettes? Guru?! Your words, not mine, but thanks. I was unaware of any Corvettes with actual port throttles, though I believe the LT-5 had what we call runner controls. Those can deactivate one runner of a dual runner design, they don't actual control engine speed like a true throttle. >...it can't cost very much when they're already using port inj. Heck > it might even be cheaper, being as the current > massive aluminum castings could be eliminated in place of plastic > plumbing. It does cost very much. True throttles have to seat accurately in their bores, and the shaft CANNOT bind under any conditions. Thus, special care must be taken when manufacturing the bores, whether they be plastic or aluminum. Most Al throttle bodies are die cast(cheap) and then their bores are machined. Without going into a lot of manufacturing detail, a cost effective plastic throttle body must be made a certain way to avoid this machining operation, and thus far, that way is incompatible with how most plastic intakes are made today. Even if you hurdle that one, you still need, for a V8, 8 separate plates, 16 screws(or welds), anywhere from 2 or 4 or even 8 shafts, accompnied by 4 or 8 or 16 sealed bearings, cables(or motors)....It will never be as cheap as one throttle body. BUT, I like port throttles(ala Euro spec BMW M3) from a performance standpoint since they make for excellent throttle response while letting the designer get as wild as he wants with the intake tracting. -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 17:10:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05319; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:06:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05314; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:06:05 -0400 Received: from ([151.99.142.213]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10196; Wed, 4 Sep 96 19:00:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 19:00:09 +0200 Message-Id: <9609041700.AA10196@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (FONTANA PASQUALE) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello Walter You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: 17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS APPLICATION REPORT spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) You must register as TI-ME and after you can download this . I hope is help you. * * * \| | |/ Pasquale * (nigth &day) ( ' ' ) * * >Can anyone tell me more about the frequency sprectrum from the knock sensor? > >How does it looks like? > >Does it look so at every case of knocking? (high speed, bad fuel and so) or is >it different? How different or what spectrum? > >How to interpret this signal? Frequency, intensity or what? > >Electronic work like filters? > >Many thanks >Walter > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 17:36:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05551; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:28:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05546; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:28:50 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18029 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA28075 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.jf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #6) Wed, 04 Sep 96 10:28:46 PDT Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 10:26:00 PDT From: Todd King Message-ID: To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Bosch to Hitachi, Ancient history Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi <<< From: "Terry McLane 312.630.0533" Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:02:05 CDT Subject: Bosch to Hitachi MAF The voltage figures I quoted were only for purposes of example, but it should only be necessary to measure the air flow up to the engine's peak volumetric efficiency. This should cooincide with peak torque >>> A good way to do this would be to put both sensors in series; set up a 6811 w/ onboard A/D to sample the output of both sensors during some WOT pulls. Then you have a conversion map to go by. Then to convert you could use the 6811 to sample the new sensor, refer to the conversion map, then output the converted value to a D/A and LPF. Sounds harder than it really is. Of course a nice, easy inverting op amp would be the way to go if the new sensor output lends itself to that, as Tom Cloud has indicated. But the other way is more fun :-) My GM MAF uses a frequency output, about 30 Hz to 150 Hz. <<< From: Arnaldo Echevarria Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:43:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Ancient History ... guy with a 455 got 20MPG(??!) in one of the real street eliminators. Yeah right! ..or did you see the buick turbo v-6 that got 48mpg and ran low 13's in the 1/4 mile?) Yeah, he had problems that day and was only able to get 13's out of it. My Turbo Regal gets about 17 city, 24 hwy. The 48 mpg was real but was done with a special, lean cruise mode chip. I have this type chip in my car right now and will be driving it to Vancouver, BC (from Portland) to race there at the end of the month; I'll report my mpg from the trip. 'Course with the ported iron heads I'm installing this month I plan to get real bad strip mpg, especially when those new 50 lb/hr injectors get thirsty with all that intercooled air being blown past 'em :-) I'll run the stock cam for now (195 deg dur. @ 0.050", 0.400" lift). I'm hoping for about 11.50 at near 120 mph for starters but we'll see. I'll be gathering lots of good EFI data so hopefully we can learn something... Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 17:56:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05640; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:51:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05635; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:51:23 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA17915 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:51:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199609041751.AA17915@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:51:21 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:51:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:51:15 -0400 From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Organization: V engine, Components B Department X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: various long post(trying to catch up) References: <199609040230.VAA07868@ns.tecinfo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1843 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Gentlemen, OEMs use exhaust gas to supress detonation, right? NO, we use it for NOx control because it reduce peak combustion temperatures(reducing NOx formation). It has a side effect of reducing burn rates(because it significantly dilutes the mixture), which means you need more spark advanvce when EGR is on. Problem is, EGR heats up the inlet air, shortening the fuse. Water can do this without heating up the air(arguably, cooling it) and without diluting the mixture to the same extent. I'm having second thoughts about water's effect on burn rates now... >I have read that the big reason for four valves is to get the spark >right in the center. Flame front has much shorter distance to travel, >meaning higher compression without detonation. You could probably get >the same effect with four spark plugs per cyl. Yes for all three sentences. There has been research on the last. Edelbrock Vari-Jection is no longer offered. One possible source for spec sheets on sensors would be a certain kind of service manual from the dealership. I've seen exerpts from such a manual that we used to diagnose faulty sensors a few years back. Can't a imagine a dealership without one of these manuals. If they won't sell you one, maybe you can convince them to give you an outdated one. Short term knocking is okay, but the longer or more severe it is, the greater chances of scuffing bores and breaking ring lands and losing crush in the rods bearings. Personally, I try never to knock. I don't always succeed, but I wince when I hear it. dn, is there a FAQ for some of this stuff? I don't know if you have a site or just a digest. I can't get over the firewall here. I would consider writing a FAQ or two for your site so the same questions don't get asked over and over. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 18:49:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA06512; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:44:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06501; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:44:49 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx07-26.teleport.com (ip-pdx07-26.teleport.com [206.163.121.154]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29971 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609041844.LAA29971@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #259 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:07:32 -0700 > >Is your 1200 idle with a 4 holer, or a V8? > >RD 4 >------------------------------ > >From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) >Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:13:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: d disease >> Here I'm really going to screw myself, but here goes. It would seem >to me that >one could use a mercedes brain on a four cylinder and set >the points up so that>the sequence you want is accomplished. >> All I ask for the idea is enough of the mercedes brains to keep me >supplied>before you guys grab them all up.:-) > >Hey. super idea! Will the Merc dist. fit in the VW hole? >I promise you the second V8 ECU I find. I see we have our priorities estblished!:-) >>Just for those who aren't thoroughly neaseated yet, maybe I should >mention>the fact that we haven't checked into DIGIFANT yet! :-> > >What's Digifant? > >RD Just another vw fuel system that was for all intents and purposes was propietary and short lived. I believe it was used on late 60's early 70's squarebeeks. The name was repulsive enough to keep me from ever learning about it. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 19:50:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA06974; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:40:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06969; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:40:15 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05673 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:42:27 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id PAA18486; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:40:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) In-Reply-To: <199609041642.AA03660@internet-mail.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Edward C. Hernandez wrote: BUT, I like port throttles(ala Euro spec BMW M3) from a > performance standpoint since they make for excellent throttle response > while letting the designer get as wild as he wants with the intake > tracting. I remember my old alfa with the spica mechanical injection had one throttle per cylinder. pretty cool. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 20:34:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA08096; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:30:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA08091; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:30:48 -0400 Received: from braketosh400 (pon-mi6-46.ix.netcom.com [205.184.190.110]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA25292 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:30:45 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960904203032.00675b70@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: tomlinsc@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:30:32 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Chuck Tomlinson Subject: Re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hey Ed, if you're the manifold guru for Ford, how come the manufacturers >haven't gone to throttle bodies for each cylinder like on some of the >vettes? I know the vettes are two intake per cyl. but the advantages >are many with one valve also, and it can't cost very much when they're >already using port inj. Heck it might even be cheaper, being as the current >massive aluminum castings could be eliminated in place of plastic plumbing. >??????????????? I'm not Ed, but... ZR-1s were the only Vettes with throttle plates in the intake runners, and they only controlled 8 of the 16 runners. I think these secondary throttles were 2-state i.e. either fully open or fully closed. Otherwise, the ZR-1 engine has a regular two-butterfly throttle body on the front of the plenum. In general, it would seem that balancing airflow (cylinder-to-cylinder) through many individual throttles would be a more complex and expensive proposition than having one throttle and a plenum. I thought some BMWs have individual throttles (M-engines?), but I don't know what the real benefits are. Cadillac Northstars already use plastic manifolds with single butterfly throttles, as will the "Gen III" small block Chevrolet in the '97 Vette. -- Chuck Tomlinson From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 21:16:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA08165; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:05:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA08160; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:04:47 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20484>; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:07:53 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep5.090753nzst.20484@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:50:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: Re: Really long water injection post, $0 X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ed says... >I disagree. The best analogy I can think of is an old fashioned bomb >fuse burning its way to a big black bomb. Think of the bomb as the knock >limit. If it goes off, you've ignited the end gas as explained above: it >explodes al at once. The fuse represents the parameters that control the >knock limit(pressure, temperature and TIME). Your goal is to burn the >mixture completely before the fuse reaches the bomb. Anything you do to >increase pressure or temperature shortens the fuse, and the converse is >true. Time is defintely a variable, which means that the knock limit is >related to burn rate. Therefore, another approach is to outrun the fuse, >which fast burn combustion chambers can do. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Explain yourself. And where *have* you been??.... Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 21:28:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA08234; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:19:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA08225; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:19:48 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20484>; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:23:09 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep5.092309nzst.20484@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:15:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: Subject: Re: Knock sensors X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bob says... >Why not use the sensor to directly change a parameter that >controls knock - temperature? I think it has already been said here, and I think the general idea was that you can't reduce the temperatures enough by just adding more fuel, unless you add a whole hell of a lot. Thats what brought up the water injection thing, I think What about injecting water upon knock sensed (for non-turbo cars)? How far can you increase spark advance and continue adding more water before something happens (like the engine hydraulics...)? Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 21:47:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA08344; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:37:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA08339; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:37:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (newt@localhost) by yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA08686 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:37:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov: newt owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:36:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ridge X-Sender: newt@yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #259 In-Reply-To: <199609041844.LAA29971@desiree.teleport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >What's Digifant? > > > >RD > > Just another vw fuel system that was for all intents and purposes was > propietary and short lived. I believe it was used on late 60's early > 70's squarebeeks. The name was repulsive enough to keep me from ever > learning about it. The Vanagon kept Digifant and four-speed transmissions and the leading edge of automotive technology for many years (snicker). How could it not be a Bosch system, though? I know little about it, but it was my understanding that Digifant bridged the gap between LJet and Motronic (ie integrated spark but dumber brain) What is it really? -Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Daniel Ridge | USRA CESDIS Research Minion, Beowulf Project | Code 930.5 email: newt@cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov | Nimbus Rd., Bldg. 28, Rm. W274 tel: 301-286-3062 | Goddard Space Flight Center fax: 301-286-1777 | Greenbelt, MD. 20771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_|_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/newt From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 21:50:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA08383; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:43:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spook-le0 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA08378; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:43:37 -0400 Received: from enternet.com ([203.28.48.14]) by spook-le0 (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA21076; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:43:33 +1000 Message-ID: <322DD1E4.521@cia.com.au> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:00:52 +1100 From: Doug Robson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: fcmtb@ix.netcom.com Subject: Autronic SMC data logging Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All , Fred Have re installed injection to race car with smaller throttle bodies Off to dyno next week to see if we avoid last times problems ( 50 mm bodies versus these 45's ). Also the Data Logging prototype is working well but ill need input as to how to design front end and what people might want to montitor and how it should be displayed. Also someone here asked me about it and I apologise for losing his name. please ask again. Look forward to hearing from y'all regards -- |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson mailto:doug@cia.com.au | | mailto:Doug.Robson@chase.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 22:40:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA08538; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:36:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ndcrelay.mci.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA08533; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:36:10 -0400 Received: by ndcrelay.mci.com; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/07Nov95-0827AM) id SAA31095; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:35:58 -0400 Received: from pop1a.mail.mci.com by ndcrelay.mci.com; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0411PM) id SAA32592; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:35:49 -0400 Received: from [166.41.145.113] by pop1a.mail.mci.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Apr96-0705PM) id AA01278; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:35:40 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960904223439.006f489c@pop1.mail.mci.com> X-Sender: tburns@pop1.mail.mci.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:34:39 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Thomas Burns Subject: Fuel on the intake valves Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I was reading in this month's Chevy High Performance mag. about the new LS1 motor being placed in the new Corvette. They mentioned that the injectors have been repositioned and the intake has a small section cutout along the top of the port allowing the fuel to squirt more directly on or towards the intake valve. I thought this was interesting, especially considering we were just talking about the Hilburn systems. Coincidence???? -Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 22:46:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA08592; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:43:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA08587; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:43:48 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p2s22.beaches.net [206.240.81.152]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08048 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:43:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609042243.RAA08048@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:32:48 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I have read that the big reason for four valves is to get the spark > right in the center. Flame front has much shorter distance to travel, > meaning higher compression without detonation. You could probably get > the same effect with four spark plugs per cyl. BTW, I believe Actually the big reason for multivalve chambers is more area is exposed around the valve to flow fuel. Two small valves have much more flow capacity than 1 large valve but is more expensive that manufacture. > detonation is what happens after spark but the mix explodes before the > flame can travel far enough to get the whole mix burning. Pre-ignition > is another phenomenon in which hot parts or diesel effect ignite the > mix before spark. > That's as I understand it. Comments? True. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 4 23:23:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA08711; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:19:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA08706; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:19:40 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id QAA27227 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:19:39 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id QAA17955 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:19:38 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id QAA13097 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:27:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:27:22 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960904162540.3fa779dc@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Ford TFI Distributor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have been observing for a couple of weeks now and have verified some of my own theories and learned a lot of new stuff. My first attempt at EFI is installing a Holley Pro-Jection 4DI on a 302 '70 Mustang. It has a medium performance hydraulic roller cam, 9.5:1 compression, 351 cast iron exhaust manifolds and a 3.50: axle ratio. In order to use the Spark Control feature a "Ford non-signature TFI distributor" is required. My questions for the group are: What model Fords use this type of distributor, i.e., where do I find one? Does the distributor have vacuum advance and mechanical advance? Are one or both of these functions controlled by the ECU? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 01:19:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA09099; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:14:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA09094; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:14:35 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA27879 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:14:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA19365; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:56:42 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA19365; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:56:42 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00153; Thu, 5 Sep 96 08:57:36 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609051257.AA00153@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:57:26 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Ancient History Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >In that case, how did the early wick carbs work? Never seen one! I would guess that since they're not around now, they didn't (work, that is!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 01:43:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA09195; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:39:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA09190; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:39:31 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max4.68.westworld.com [205.230.57.210]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA32579 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:39:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:39:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199609050139.SAA32579@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Once you go to full throttle the injector pulsewidth should approach >100%; basically the injector is on all the time. At idle and low RPM I'm not sure how close to 100% is good, I have the idea that is should be less then that as that can lead to injector and driver overheating. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 01:47:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA09238; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:45:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA09233; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:45:47 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max4.68.westworld.com [205.230.57.210]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00206 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:45:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:45:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199609050145.SAA00206@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 07:00 PM 9/4/96 +0200, you wrote: >Hello Walter > >You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: > >17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS >APPLICATION REPORT > > spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) > Can this be put on one of the FTP sites or Web pages? Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 02:50:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA09514; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 02:46:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09509; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:46:24 -0400 Received: from pmeU28.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU28.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.29]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id TAA14342 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609050246.TAA14342@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: various long post(trying to catch up) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 01:51 PM 9/4/96 -0400, Ed H. wrote: >dn, is there a FAQ for some of this stuff? I don't know if you have a >site or just a digest. I can't get over the firewall here. I would >consider writing a FAQ or two for your site so the same questions don't >get asked over and over. I don't have a site or a digest, I think ya got me confused with somebody else. There is an affiliated site here at the University of Calgary which has some of the DIY_EFI stuff on it. Doing up some FAQ's is a hell of an idea, though. I'd be willing to throw in a little time to get this stuff organized. One of the list members was keeping up a source listing for EFI parts and books, etc., but I havent heard of anything new lately. I don't remember where it was posted, either. Yo, Johnny, ya got some place we can put this stuff? regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 03:38:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA09583; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:35:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA09578; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:35:24 -0400 Received: from peo4.mtco.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/07Aug96-0204PM) id AA02845; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:34:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:34:24 -0500 Message-Id: <9609050334.AA02845@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Craig wrote: >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) > Yes: But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the fuel tank. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 04:28:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA09673; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 04:21:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA09668; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:21:10 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma028227; Thu Sep 5 14:20:32 1996 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma010025; Thu Sep 5 14:17:05 1996 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.oz.au [137.147.20.34]) by cdn-mail.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA24981 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:17:03 +1000 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA08685 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:17:02 +1000 (EST) From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199609050417.OAA08685@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:17:02 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9609050334.AA02845@wagner.mtco.com> from "David Doddek" at Sep 4, 96 10:34:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? > >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) > > > Yes: > > But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the > injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam > shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric > solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector > 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the > fuel tank. Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. Craig. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 05:50:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA09877; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:48:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09872; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:48:14 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA23882; Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:47:04 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA841957130 Thu, 05 Sep 96 13:58:50 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 13:58:50 Message-Id: <9608058419.AA841957130@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Re Propane injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Guess you don't want a pipe to burst while you are leaning over it, or you may just loose a few body parts. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/5/96 1:11 PM Craig wrote: >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) > Yes: But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the fuel tank. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 07:14:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA10012; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:11:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA10007; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:11:03 -0400 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:10:41 +0200 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA05305; Thu, 5 Sep 96 09:10:37 +0200 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:10:39 +0200 To: DIY_EFI From: walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 07:00 PM 9/4/96 +0200, you wrote: >>Hello Walter >> >>You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: >> >>17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS >>APPLICATION REPORT >> >> spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) >> >Can this be put on one of the FTP sites or Web pages? > >Sandy Yes:http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/psheets/appnote.htm From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 10:15:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10333; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:06:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10327; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:06:35 -0400 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA16601; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:06:35 -0400 Date: 05 Sep 96 06:03:56 EDT From: David Redpath <101513.357@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: FORTH ISBN Message-ID: <960905100355_101513.357_IHP110-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The book I mentioned 'FORTH: The New Model' is by Jack Woehr. The ISBN is 0-13-036328-6. hope that's useful. As far as The Hitachi H8 I talked about. more info available on http://www.hitachi.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 10:18:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10377; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:15:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10372; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:15:29 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I93WCTJJWW00009K@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:13:31 CDT Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:35:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Ancient History To: diy_efi Message-id: <296470.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> If you run the injectors beyond 80% dwell, they become erratic and -> the flow rates go to hell. Stay below 80% and you'll make your -> engine much happier. I've hung injectors open for ten minutes at a time on the test bench without any trouble. -> Also, if you're running above 80%, you can burn -> your driver circuitry out prematurely. I've played with a Galant VR-4 with the DSM test unit. On the road at WOT it will run the injectors to 98%. I've observed 95% on a '90 Corvette with Diacom. Both of these cars survive extended periods at WOT at track events, and have for years. ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 10:40:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10406; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:30:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xwing.wcape.gov.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10399; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:29:59 -0400 Received: from REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (redxch.wcape.gov.za [164.151.82.16]) by xwing.wcape.gov.za (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA20370 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:32:20 +0200 Received: from REDXCH/MAIL by REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:32:11 +0200 Received: from MAIL by REDXCH (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:31:58 +0200 From: "GEORGE LERM" To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:31:50 GMT-2 Subject: Electronic Ignition Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <188AA61163@REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Cool list! Does anyone know of any DIY_Electronic Ignition mailing lists. I would like to explore the options of experimenting with a distributorless ignition for my VW Beetle. Any suggestions,help or comments would be appreciated. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 13:06:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA10990; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:58:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10985; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:58:08 -0400 Received: from slip-72-8.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46070; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:58:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:58:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9609051258.AA46070@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 07:00 PM 9/4/96 +0200, you wrote: >>Hello Walter >> >>You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: >> >>17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS >>APPLICATION REPORT >> >> spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) >> >Can this be put on one of the FTP sites or Web pages? > >Sandy > I downlowded this app (all 63 pages or so) yesterday. I can send it to anyone that wants it -- could also repose (sic?) it into some repository! tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 13:16:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA11047; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:09:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11042; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:09:52 -0400 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:09:12 +0200 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA08110; Thu, 5 Sep 96 15:09:08 +0200 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:09:09 +0200 To: diy_efi From: walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi George, I would be interested to in a eletronic ignition mailing list. My Austin Mini is waiting for an electronic distributerless ignition.... If you know more about a 'ign' list, I would be interested too! Thanks Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 14:17:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA11388; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:58:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11362; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:56:08 -0400 Received: from ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.25] by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) with ESMTP id PAA06879 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:55:36 +0200 Received: from knick@localhost by ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/tubsibr) id PAA09219 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:55:36 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199609051355.PAA09219@ares.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #259 To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:55:35 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Ridge" at Sep 4, 96 05:36:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2107 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi wrote: > > > >What's Digifant? > > > > > >RD > > > > Just another vw fuel system that was for all intents and purposes was > > propietary and short lived. I believe it was used on late 60's early > > 70's squarebeeks. The name was repulsive enough to keep me from ever > > learning about it. > > The Vanagon kept Digifant and four-speed transmissions and the leading > edge of automotive technology for many years (snicker). > > How could it not be a Bosch system, though? I know little about it, but it > was my understanding that Digifant bridged the gap between LJet and > Motronic (ie integrated spark but dumber brain) > > What is it really? > > -Dan Digifant is, as you said, a bridge between LJet and Motronic and handles ignition and injection. The injection system is the same as the Digijet which is also called L2-Jet. It was the first LJet which used digital instead of analog design. The L3-Jet is nearly the same, except that the ECU is mounted on the AFM. The Digifant's injection system is a MPI, all injectors are batched. Digifant includes an ignition which is based upon the Dignition. It controls dwell and timing, the supercharged engines and some high compression engines have a know sensor. The knock sensor's signal is filtered by an analog filter circuitry and is measured only in a small window after ignition (simply done by switching the filered signal to the MCU by a CD4066). The Digifant ECU is a "multi purpose" ECU, it can be used with a MAP or a MAF sensor, with or without knock sensor. MAP is used on the supercharged engines, MAF on the other ones (this goes for German VWs, situation might be different in other countries). When the Digifant came out in the early '80s, it used two MCUs, a 80xx and a 68HC05. Later, VW switched to one HC11 instead of using two MCUs. Digifant has an OBD which got more sophisticated over teh years of production. The first ECUs had a blink code output, later a high speed diagnostic interface was used. Digifant ECUs are produced by Bosch (small cases) and Siemens (large cases). Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 16:44:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA11928; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:26:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA11922; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:26:06 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max4.67.westworld.com [205.230.57.209]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA05885 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:26:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:26:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199609051626.JAA05885@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi How about posting it to John's FTP site? >>>You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: >>> >>>17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS >>>APPLICATION REPORT >>> >>> spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) >>> > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 17:57:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12764; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:50:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12759; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:49:51 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05247 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA18134 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.jf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #6) Thu, 05 Sep 96 10:49:41 PDT Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 10:47:00 PDT From: Todd King Message-ID: To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: DIGIFANT the great Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi <<< From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:48:37 +-200 Subject: RE: d disease Durrr me dunno either, what is DIGIFANT? Mark >>> DIGIFANT was a great Mastodon that once lived in the Black Forest; Teutonic mythology claims that his weight was "over 10,000 stone" and height "over 100 hands". He was said to posses great digital design skills, due primarily to a tremendous memory capacity... Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 18:13:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA12803; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:05:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA12798; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:05:02 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:04:34 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:04:27 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Thu, 5 Sep 96 12:03:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 11:51:07 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: Electronic Ignition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Wrote: | | Hi George, | | I would be interested to in a eletronic ignition mailing list. My Austin Mini | is waiting for an electronic distributerless ignition.... | | If you know more about a 'ign' list, I would be interested too! | | Thanks | Walter | | | You guys are on it. Despite the EFI in the name, this list is for engine management, including ignition. so fire away. Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 18:21:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA12847; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:15:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA12842; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:15:54 -0400 Received: (from ean@localhost) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA03548 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:15:52 -0700 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:15:49 UTC-0700 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:15:49 UTC-0700 X400-Originator: rodb@cs.ubc.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;960905111549] Content-Identifier: 4726 From: Rod Barman To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <199609051626.JAA05885@mail.westworld.com> Message-ID: <"4726*rodb@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> Subject: Check out the C31 DSK (was Re: Knock sensor spectrum?) MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Those of you thinking of fiddling with engine knock on a dsp should check out TI's el-cheapo C31 DSK. More info can be found at "http://www.ti.com/sc/c3xdsk" --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS IS-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@cs.ubc.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 19:12:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA12946; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:07:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA12941; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:07:03 -0400 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA01094 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:07:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:07:02 -0400 Message-ID: <960905150552_516498328@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 96-09-04 16:06:27 EDT, wright@uspto.gov (Dirk Wright) writes: >I remember my old alfa with the spica mechanical injection had one >throttle per cylinder. pretty cool. So does the Lotus Turbo Esprit, but with elctronic fuel injection.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 19:33:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA13023; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:29:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.swip.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13018; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:29:23 -0400 Received: from win95.swip.net (dialup117-6-1.swipnet.se [130.244.117.121]) by gaia.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20367 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:29:20 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:29:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199609051929.VAA20367@gaia.swip.net> X-Sender: mg31985@gaia.swip.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fredrik Jeppsson Subject: Multispark ignition "computers" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello from Sweden, I am considering upgrading the stock Lucas/Bosch ignitiion in my 1988 EFI Range Rover (3.5 liter ex buick V8). I would really appreciate some opinions and words of experience on the performance / smoothness improvements after adding one of those boxes between the trigger device and the ignition amplifier. I am also interested in the effect of performance coils marketed by the same companies (Jacobs, MSD and others). Fredrik Jeppsson * FAE, Embedded development tools * * Nohau Elektronik AB, Malmoe, Sweden * * * * 1988 Range Rover EFI * * 1990 Citroen XM V6 * From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 20:12:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13094; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:07:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA13089; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:07:01 -0400 Received: by bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25931; Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:06:59 PDT Received: from bchgate.bchydro.bc.ca by bchnetgw via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma025873; Thu Sep 5 13:06:07 1996 Received: by BCHydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10664; Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:05:56 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:05:56 PDT Message-Id: <9609052005.AA10664@BCHydro.bc.ca> Received: from unknown(142.52.141.48) by bchgate via smap (V1.3) id sma010537; Thu Sep 5 13:05:34 1996 X-Sender: beggs@bchgate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: John.Beggs@BCHydro.bc.ca (John W. Beggs) Subject: re: Re: Electronic Ignition X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >You guys are on it. Despite the EFI in the name, this list is for engine >management, including ignition. so fire away. Tim Drury wrote an excellent paper on a Digital Distributorless Ignition System. Try http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu and look for Tim's name, etc. John W. Beggs, BC Hydro, 6911 Southpoint Dr., Burnaby, BC, V3N 4X8, Canada. Voice: (604)528-2776, FAX: (604)528-1883, EMail: john.beggs@bchydro.bc.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 20:19:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13125; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:16:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA13120; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:16:53 -0400 Received: from slip-72-8.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49140; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:16:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:16:22 -0500 Message-Id: <9609052016.AA49140@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >How about posting it to John's FTP site? Be glad to .... what's it?? > >>>>You can have more informations about this problem by the application note: >>>> >>>>17. ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING TMS320C25 AND TMS320C30 DSPS >>>>APPLICATION REPORT >>>> >>>> spra039.pdf (329 KBytes) >>>> >> > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 20:28:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13149; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:24:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA13144; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:24:10 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id NAA19931 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322ED4B5.51EC@net-quest.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:25:09 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 References: <199609042243.RAA08048@wave.beaches.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Faubion wrote: > > Actually the big reason for multivalve chambers is more area is exposed > around the valve to flow fuel. Two small valves have much more flow > capacity than 1 large valve but is more expensive that manufacture. That's also what Yamaha though, they went to 5 valves to get even more flow. They did pick up flow, but on the F1 motors the 4 valve engines made more power still. Point is. It's not all flow, but combustion chamber shape and flame propogation as well. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 21:05:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13214; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:58:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA13209; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:58:01 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id NAA29980 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:58:00 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id NAA25641 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:57:59 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id OAA25184 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:05:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:05:43 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960905140357.0a87298e@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Ford 351W Intake Manifold Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is there a stock or aftermarket EFI manifold similar to the 5.0 liter late model Ford for the 351W? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 21:16:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA13253; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:11:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA13248; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:11:31 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA13536 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:10:56 +1200 (NZST) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id JAA24438 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:10:55 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 6 Sep 96 09:12:05 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 6 Sep 96 09:11:54 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:11:45 +1200 Subject: Electronic Ignition Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Message-ID: <28F21D56E14@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) Facts, not theories, please.. *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 21:33:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA13292; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:29:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA13287; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:29:50 -0400 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA29704 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 96 14:29:49 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA13291 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 96 14:29:48 MST Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA23234; Thu, 5 Sep 96 16:29:47 -0500 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01100; Thu, 5 Sep 96 16:43:58 CDT Received: from gocart.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA10760 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:30:42 -0500 From: Matt Sale Received: by gocart.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id RAA04894 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:30:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199609052130.RAA04894@gocart.mot.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Ford 351W Intake Manifold To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:30:51 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960905140357.0a87298e@tempepop> from "Mark Eidson" at Sep 5, 96 02:05:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 507 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Is there a stock or aftermarket EFI manifold similar to the 5.0 liter late > model Ford for the 351W? me Yes, look on the 95 full-size trucks and I think the SVO Ranger. Also look in the Ford Motorsports catalog. -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@holli.com http://www.holli.com/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.656@103MPH using cave-man technology). All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 22:01:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA13367; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:55:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-1.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA13362; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:55:32 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by mail-1.mail.demon.net id af05603; 5 Sep 96 22:27 BST Received: from anergy.demon.co.uk ([158.152.64.31]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa23784; 5 Sep 96 22:09 BST Message-ID: <3UhaNDA1zILyEwOI@anergy.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:54:30 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Jonathan Lloyd Subject: Re: Ancient History In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message , Dirk Wright writes >On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: >> >> Liquid fuel does not burn - period. It must be vaporized before it burns. > >Um, sorry. Gasoline vapor explodes, it does not burn. Liqiud gasoline >burns. Gasoline vapor ignited in a combustion chamber will cause > >**************************************************************************** >Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov > Excuse the butt in but liquid fuel does burn, try throwing a match into a bowl of gasoline, and vapour does not neccessarily "explode". The chamber will be full of vapour and droplets of various sizes prior to spark. As the temp and pressure rise the oxygen in the air dissociates ( a very temp dependent effect) and provides the oxygen radicle neccessary for combination with the hydrocarbon mix. Explosion occurs when the temp is high enough to dissociate the hydrocarbons and is a function of "quality" i.e. octane rating in which case the whole cylinder contains free oxygen and free hydrocarbon radicals and the whole lot reacts at once. Bad news , knock , damage etc. The fuel should be a high enough octane rating to suppress dissociation. Reaction is then totally determined by the spark and a flame front is created. What is wanted is not the fastest burn possible but a good start and prolonged long enough to finish some way down the power stroke. The flame speed of the vapour for a given mixture is calculatable and reaches the cylinder walls quickly igniting the droplets as it goes. They continue to burn and any droplets too big will be exhausted without having provided all the power they could have done. -- Jonathan Lloyd john@anergy.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 22:13:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA13405; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:09:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA13400; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:09:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (newt@localhost) by yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA15511 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:08:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov: newt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:08:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ridge X-Sender: newt@yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 In-Reply-To: <322ED4B5.51EC@net-quest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Todd Knighton wrote: > John Faubion wrote: > > > > Actually the big reason for multivalve chambers is more area is exposed > > around the valve to flow fuel. Two small valves have much more flow > > capacity than 1 large valve but is more expensive that manufacture. > > That's also what Yamaha though, they went to 5 valves to get even more > flow. They did pick up flow, but on the F1 motors the 4 valve engines > made more power still. > Point is. It's not all flow, but combustion chamber shape and flame > propogation as well. Well, I don't think anybody thought that multivalves flow better per unit area of opening.... Todd's right about chamber shape and flame proopgation. Multivalves are a hack around the hard limits that geometry places on things -- we're constrained to have circular valves, it's tough to use real estate well when you are nesting circles(valves) in circles(cylinder(head)s). The multivalve people didn't want multivales -- they really wanted rectangular valves :). Two small valves have worse flow (per unit area) than one large valve, but you can get better aggregate flow with multivalves with a larger total area than would be possible with univalve configurations. -Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Daniel Ridge | USRA CESDIS Research Minion, Beowulf Project | Code 930.5 email: newt@cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov | Nimbus Rd., Bldg. 28, Rm. W274 tel: 301-286-3062 | Goddard Space Flight Center fax: 301-286-1777 | Greenbelt, MD. 20771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_|_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/newt From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 22:17:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA13417; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:12:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA13412; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:12:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (newt@localhost) by yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA15516 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:12:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov: newt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ridge X-Sender: newt@yukon.gsfc.nasa.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition In-Reply-To: <28F21D56E14@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Tony Bryant wrote: > Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function > other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one > if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) Points? Eh? :) > > Facts, not theories, please.. I don't know that this is the best place (or even should be) for facts. There are too many (like standards) to choose from. -Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Daniel Ridge | USRA CESDIS Research Minion, Beowulf Project | Code 930.5 email: newt@cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov | Nimbus Rd., Bldg. 28, Rm. W274 tel: 301-286-3062 | Goddard Space Flight Center fax: 301-286-1777 | Greenbelt, MD. 20771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_|_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/newt From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 22:50:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA13497; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:47:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA13492; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:47:00 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max2.8.westworld.com [205.230.57.58]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29330 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:46:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:46:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199609052246.PAA29330@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:16 PM 9/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >>How about posting it to John's FTP site? > >Be glad to .... what's it?? > The site address (at last recollection) ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Place the files in the 'Incomming' directory Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 23:35:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA13575; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:34:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA13570; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:33:57 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:17:29 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:17:28 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:17:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:17:19 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Ridge Wrote: | Todd's right about chamber shape and flame proopgation. Multivalves are a | hack around the hard limits that geometry places on things -- we're | constrained to have circular valves, it's tough to use real estate well | when you are nesting circles(valves) in circles(cylinder(head)s). The | multivalve people didn't want multivales -- they really wanted rectangular | valves :). This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I guess they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners being bad, but what about a nice oval shape? --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 23:40:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA13603; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:40:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA13598; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:39:59 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:24:38 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:24:36 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:24:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 18:24:16 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Electronic Ignition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi "Tony Bryant" Wrote: | | Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function | other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one | if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) | | Facts, not theories, please.. | | *********************************************************** | * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * | * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * | *********************************************************** | Are you talking about electronic ignition or point ignition? I've never actually worked on a point ignition (not that old), but I'm pretty sure the condensor stores a charge, which is discharged thru the coil to make a spark. That is CD (capacitive discharge) ignition. Electronic ignitions usually charge the coil primary during the dwell period, interrupting the charge causes the field to collapse and generate a spark, no capacitor needed. HEI ignitions (from GM) are electronic, but have a condensor. The only purpose of the condensor is noise suppression for the radio, however. The car will run fine without it. --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 5 23:47:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA13629; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:46:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA13624; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:46:04 -0400 Received: from van-as-13c03.direct.ca ([204.174.251.35]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <269749-13975>; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:45:53 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:29:44 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Vats Message-Id: <96Sep5.164553-0700pdt.269749-13975+2@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello Guys Built a Vats defeat. Used a 555 driving a 3904 via a 2.7K resistor. This is because the ECM wants to see a open collector driving the passkey port. The components I used were a 15K for Ra, a 50k pot and a 68K resistor in series for Rb, and a 0.2 ufd timing cap. Midway on the pot produced the 30 Hz. Works to 92 on F body. Just to make it simplier for the next guy. By the way the new Passkey II can't be quite as easily defeated. There is a adaptive algorithm in this one. Later guys: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 03:12:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA13935; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:11:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13930; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:11:02 -0400 Received: from pmeU17.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU17.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.18]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id UAA03237 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609060311.UAA03237@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:11 AM 9/6/96 +1200, you wrote: >Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function >other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one >if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) The cap also damps ringing of the ignition coil when the points open. Most electronic ignitions do not have one, although it probably won't hurt to leave it in. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 03:18:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA13960; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:17:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13955; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:17:38 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id NAA10561 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:17:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA00857; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:11:38 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA00857; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:11:38 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AB00164; Fri, 6 Sep 96 11:11:34 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609061511.AB00164@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:11:28 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Ancient History Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >cylinder contains free oxygen and free hydrocarbon radicals and the >whole lot reacts at once. Bad news , knock , damage etc. Not exactly true. Combustion pressure, temperature and radiation are required to initiate knock, which is where areas in the combustion chamber auto-ignite causing several flame fronts to develop uncontrolled. >What is wanted is not the fastest burn possible but a good >start and prolonged long enough to finish some way down the power >stroke. In theory, you want as fast a burn-rate as possible (to minimise BSFC), however the pressure rise rate will limit this. High pressure rise rates will excite the block, head etc at various natural frequencies, increasing the engine noise. (Diesel engines are the extreme of this) > ....quickly igniting the droplets as it goes. They continue to burn >and any droplets too big will be exhausted without having provided >all the power they could have done. Large fuel droplets cause soot formation. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 03:51:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA14079; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:44:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA14074; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:44:45 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id NAA11714 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:44:39 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA01845; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:31:47 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA01845; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:31:47 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00057; Fri, 6 Sep 96 11:30:40 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609061530.AA00057@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:30:32 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >In a message dated 96-09-04 16:06:27 EDT, wright@uspto.gov (Dirk >Wright) >writes: > >>I remember my old alfa with the spica mechanical injection had one >>throttle per cylinder. pretty cool. > >So does the Lotus Turbo Esprit, but with elctronic fuel injection.... So do all EFI Alfa 33/145/146 boxer engines. Does anyone know what would happen if you joined all the chokes together on the down-stream side of each throttle, kind of like forming a mini-plenum for improving balance robustness at low throttle openings, but still allowing the correct runner design and plenum volume up-stream of the blades for WOT performance? Anyone tried this? Any theories? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 06:58:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA14313; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:53:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA14302; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:53:32 -0400 From: DJohn77284@aol.com Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA26167 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:53:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:53:32 -0400 Message-ID: <960906025330_472882823@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, I'd appreciate a copy of the application note spra039.pdf if possible. Just some bedtime reading - like you do..... Thanks Dave DJohn77284@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 07:24:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA14357; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:21:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA14352; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:21:08 -0400 From: DJohn77284@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA09673 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:21:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:21:07 -0400 Message-ID: <960906032107_195530605@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yamaha, again, have used this method in the past on some of there air-cooled motrocycle engines. They called it 'YICS' - Yamaha Induction Control System. I don't know whether there were any real benefits or that it was just a gimick. They also tried seven valve heads - four inlet, three exhaust - before settling with five valves. Regards, Dave DJohn77284@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:46:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14630; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:36:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from device.data.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14625; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:35:51 -0400 Received: by device.data.co.za id aa27355; 6 Sep 96 12:24 sat Subject: Condensor/Capacitor for Ignition Coil To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:22:51 +0200 (sat) From: Kalle Pihlajasaari In-Reply-To: from "SRavet@bangate.compaq.com" at Sep 5, 96 06:24:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4975 Message-ID: <9609061222.aa27349@device.data.co.za> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All, Long discource on Points capacitors. Steve Ravet wrote > "Tony Bryant" Wrote: > | Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function > | other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one > | if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) > | > | Facts, not theories, please.. > | > | *********************************************************** > | * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * > | * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * > | *********************************************************** > > Are you talking about electronic ignition or point ignition? I've never > actually worked on a point ignition (not that old), but I'm pretty sure the > condensor stores a charge, which is discharged thru the coil to make a > spark. That is CD (capacitive discharge) ignition. Electronic ignitions > usually charge the coil primary during the dwell period, interrupting the > charge causes the field to collapse and generate a spark, no capacitor > needed. HEI ignitions (from GM) are electronic, but have a condensor. The > only purpose of the condensor is noise suppression for the radio, however. > The car will run fine without it. There are a few things getting mixed up here. We have the oldie Ignition coil system that stores the spark energy in the magnetic field of the SOFT iron in the middle of the coil the energy is not stored in the windings (primary or secondary) but is charged or discharged using these windings. The Capacitor Discharge Ignition systems store the energy in the potential of a capacitor and they are ususally charged to a higher than battery voltage with some sort of chopper circuit in high energy devices otherwise you need a large capacitor and a low impedance coil usually a standard 9 Volt ingnition coil, the high voltage CD systems can use smaller high impedance coils with much less Iron in them as they do no want to store the energy in the core, they want the spark when they dump the cap into the coil not when the field collapses. The electronic points system is a standard Mag storage system with just a transistor switch to save on contact errosion on a set of points. There is also a high frequency system used in some cars that makes use of a Ironless low impedance coil and drives it with a high frequency to get multiple sparks during the time the distributor rotor is pointing at the cylinder starting at the firing point this means that turbulence cannot cause a misfire. ===== NOW ===== That little capacitor in the Mag store systems across the points OR the transistor switch. It is required. Back in the Boys Brigade {similar to scouts} when I was an ignorant 11, I took an instructor to task about it being only for suppression but he maintained it was for storage (we were both wrong). I was so cock-sure that we ended up trooping out to test this on the instructors car and sure enough it would not run without the cap in place (big blow to my ego). Later when styding 1st year Circuit theory at university we used the Ignition coil and Capacitor TANK cicuit as an example for damped occilation calculations. The Capacitor and coil form a resonant circuit which does not allow the magnetic field to collapse too fast. The two results of a too fast collapse are firstly that the voltage on the coil primary may rise to the point that it arcs across the points, this will cause a sustained current in the primary and will result in too slow a discharge of the magnetif field and hence a low voltage long spark. The other result you will find in the case of no points (or transistor) arcing is that the spark will be too high a voltage and will flash over in the insulation inside or outside the coil and cause the spark to be quenched before it has a chance to ignite the fuel-air mix. Plug lead inductance can cause the voltage to arc first inside the coil before your real fast spark even gets to the plugs. ===== cut ===== The suppression capacitor is the one you often see attached to the B+ terminal on a Alternator and is to get rid of the alternator whine from the radio &c. If you want a faster rise time and higher voltage shorter striking spark you can try using less capacitance and the rise time will be reduced, you can try two capacitors in series (buy two at the same time othewise you may exceed the voltage rating of one) or if you think that a lower strike voltage is enough you can use two capacitors in parallel. Remember that all of this only matters until the arc is formed at the spark plug at which point you have a constant energy discharge that will dissapate the stored magnetic field at a much lower sustaining voltage of about 2-5kV whilst the striking voltage is between 8 and 16 kV. Cheers -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@data.co.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14659; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14644; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:02 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09313; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:44:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.0F3CFF60@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:43:52 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.0F3CFF60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'SRavet@bangate.compaq.com'" Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:51:36 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB9BF1.0F3CFF60" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9BF1.0F3CFF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are better off with oval pistons, seeing as pistons cant turn, and = makes the head a much better shape for fitting multi valves into , or = just 2 big valves, but remember guys.... If you want revs as well = (which, I don't think many of you Americans do... (cubes don't make = revs)), you need small low mass valves so that they can close in time! Here is a silly twin spark idea: =20 If you get my drift (or for that matter....... My email works :)) Mark ---------- From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com[SMTP:SRavet@bangate.compaq.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 1996 1:17 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Daniel Ridge Wrote: | Todd's right about chamber shape and flame proopgation. Multivalves = are a | hack around the hard limits that geometry places on things -- we're | constrained to have circular valves, it's tough to use real estate = well | when you are nesting circles(valves) in circles(cylinder(head)s). The | multivalve people didn't want multivales -- they really wanted=20 rectangular | valves :). This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I guess = they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners = being=20 bad, but what about a nice oval shape? --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9BF1.0F3CFF60-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14661; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14650; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:04 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09320; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:45:03 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.11887600@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:43:56 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.11887600@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'SnoMo1@aol.com'" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:54:32 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi To an Englishman, these figures are crazy! How many ponies are you getting out of these engines? Mark ---------- From: SnoMo1@aol.com[SMTP:SnoMo1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 1996 5:53 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ancient History Gentlemen, I have been on this list for some time now, and have found your discussions informative, and interesting. This latest thread (discussions of gas milage from a big block) has finally prompted me to ask a question. Why is it a 3500 lb big block car can get 12mpg when on the other end of the weight (and size) spectrum, my parents have a 14,000 +lb motorhome powered by a 454 chevy (tbi), with ovedrive, 5.13 ? gears, 20" wheels (rim dia) , and the areodynamics of a house, and still get 10-11mpg on the highway. And, when pulling a towed 3700lb vehicle (Brono II 4x4) they still get 8-10mpg. This has been documented over 10's of thousands of miles. And yet, if I buy a full size truck with 4-wheel drive and a 5.0 to 5.8 litre V-8, I can only excpect 16mpg? Do you think that possibly many vehicles are being over-geared? I recently changed the gears on my 2.8 L ford ranger from 3.73 to 4.11 and actually saw a slight increase in mileage. I think this was cause by always having the foot to the floor. Now, the engine revs higher, but I notice the pedal isn't constantly kissing the carpet. And, by the way I did take into account the odometer error after changing the gears (plural, 4-wheel drive makes changing gears a pain!). Just thinking outloud again, Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14645; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14638; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:44:57 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09309; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:44:55 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.0CA6C420@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:43:48 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.0CA6C420@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'SRavet@bangate.compaq.com'" Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:46:39 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Come on now guys.... The cap on points is to stop arcing at the points, = and therefore erosion of the breaker terminals. If you take the cap off, = it all still works, but the contact breaker pads weld to each other, = then the distributor cam forces them apart, ripping the surface off one = side, this is generally considered BAD! CD ignition requires a much bigger cap, as it is the cap discharging = into the coil that gives all the 'bang', not the collapse of the mag = field.=20 Theory simplified: Transformers are AC. They induce a current in the secondary proportional to that in the = primary (by number of turns primary to no. turns secodary). Normal points ignition gets the coil 'saturated'. I.e. it has dc flowing = through it. This DC comes from the points. They bit that induces the = spark is when the points open, and the magnetic field no longer is = supported by the DC. Something has to give. The current would continue = to flow for a short time AFTER the points open, through plasma as the = points arc. This is taken care of by the condenser 'buffering' this = effect, by allowing current to flow for a short time thro' it, mean = while the points are sufficiently open for the relatively small back EMF = from the coil not to jump the gap, and the dielectric in the cap is also = strong enough to hold it.=20 So now we have a coil with a magnetic field that is about to collapse. = The back EMF caused by the collapsing field will try and go anywhere. = The points are now safe, they are open, with sufficient gap that arcing = wont happen there, and the insulator (dielectric) in the cap (condenser) = is strong enough to cope without breakdown, so the only other rout out = for all this energy is through the secondary (which has a hell of a lot = more turns, (if you want transformers which is what a coil is = explained.. ask) and therefor a lot more voltage, but less current, but = its volts that jump gaps (like spark plugs!). Cap discharge... charge up a big cap to hold the energy, instead of creating a stable mag = field. Connect this cap to a coil primary with a big mosfet or whatever you = fancy. Coils do not like building up magfields, they create BACK EMF to oppose = the current trying to flow through them. This back emf is also induced = on the secondary, but higher voltage, and this jumps the plug gap, = thereby giving a rout for the energy to dissipate. Before anybody kicks my ass... I know this isnt complete, and I know its = not all strictly correct, but if ya know that... I didn't write this for = you! This is quite good enough for most people to follow (I hope :)). Mark. ---------- From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com[SMTP:SRavet@bangate.compaq.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 1996 1:24 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Electronic Ignition "Tony Bryant" Wrote: |=20 | Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function | other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one | if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) |=20 | Facts, not theories, please.. |=20 | *********************************************************** | * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * | * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * | *********************************************************** |=20 Are you talking about electronic ignition or point ignition? I've never = actually worked on a point ignition (not that old), but I'm pretty sure = the=20 condensor stores a charge, which is discharged thru the coil to make a=20 spark. That is CD (capacitive discharge) ignition. Electronic = ignitions=20 usually charge the coil primary during the dwell period, interrupting = the=20 charge causes the field to collapse and generate a spark, no capacitor=20 needed. HEI ignitions (from GM) are electronic, but have a condensor. = The=20 only purpose of the condensor is noise suppression for the radio, = however. =20 The car will run fine without it. --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14666; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14660; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:08 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09324; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:45:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.13EC56A0@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:44:00 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.13EC56A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Sandy'" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:12:29 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A few points: for real serious stuff 2 injectors are good... 1 hi flo and 1 lo flo, = with the lo flo for tick over, and fine adjust the big injector. This = gives fine control at closed throttle, and the high flo is good for WOT. Running injects flat out can cause them to stick, and overheat, and burn = out the driver electronics. Mark ---------- From: Sandy[SMTP:sganz@westworld.com] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 1996 3:39 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ancient History > Once you go to full throttle the injector pulsewidth should approach >100%; basically the injector is on all the time. At idle and low RPM I'm not sure how close to 100% is good, I have the idea that is should = be less then that as that can lead to injector and driver overheating. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14686; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14670; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:19 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09335; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:45:19 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.1AAA1B80@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:44:11 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.1AAA1B80@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'GEORGE LERM'" Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:26:42 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey dude... right list already... we do the bang bit here as well as the squirty bit! Mark ---------- From: GEORGE LERM[SMTP:GEORGE@redxch.wcape.gov.za] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 1996 2:32 PM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Electronic Ignition Hi Cool list! Does anyone know of any DIY_Electronic Ignition mailing lists. I would like to explore the options of experimenting with a distributorless ignition for my VW Beetle. Any suggestions,help or comments would be appreciated. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14685; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14668; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:18 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09328; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:45:11 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.163F6E60@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:44:04 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.163F6E60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au'" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:14:39 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Well it was basically a pipe with the throttle plate in it, and a wick = hanging out of the float bowl... and they used to work fine... (1920's) :) Mark ---------- From: = RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au[SMTP:RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 1996 10:57 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Ancient History >In that case, how did the early wick carbs work? Never seen one! I would guess that since they're not around now, they=20 didn't (work, that is!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 10:47:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14687; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:45:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14673; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:45:23 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09339; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:45:22 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BF1.1CDBA180@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:44:15 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BF1.1CDBA180@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Fredrik Jeppsson'" Subject: RE: Multispark ignition "computers" Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:28:13 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Speak to me later... Ive got some friends into 3.5s I can chat to... who race on the strip, and go offroading! Mark ---------- From: Fredrik Jeppsson[SMTP:fredrik.jeppsson@mbox300.swipnet.se] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 1996 11:29 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Multispark ignition "computers" Hello from Sweden, I am considering upgrading the stock Lucas/Bosch ignitiion in my 1988 EFI Range Rover (3.5 liter ex buick V8). I would really appreciate some opinions and words of experience on the performance / smoothness improvements after adding one of those boxes between the trigger device and the ignition amplifier. I am also interested in the effect of performance coils marketed by the same companies (Jacobs, MSD and others). Fredrik Jeppsson * FAE, Embedded development tools * * Nohau Elektronik AB, Malmoe, Sweden * * * * 1988 Range Rover EFI * * 1990 Citroen XM V6 * From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 12:22:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA14915; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:12:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14910; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:12:19 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40846; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:12:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:12:17 -0500 Message-Id: <9609061212.AA40846@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 03:16 PM 9/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>How about posting it to John's FTP site? >> >>Be glad to .... what's it?? >> > >The site address (at last recollection) > >ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Place the files in the 'Incomming' directory > >Sandy > Okay, did it !! Don't know if I did it right -- was I supposed to have left a note or something about what I transferred to 'incoming' ? I transferred two files, for all what's interested: (Youse can log onto the above ftp site and xfr stuff out of the incoming directory). spra039.pdf the data on the k-knock sensor using a TMS320 DSP. caldemo.zip Mike Wesley's demo program of his 'calibrator' for the Ford EEC-IV. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 12:29:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA14941; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:24:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14935; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:24:21 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA09480; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:24:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9BFE.EF9776A0@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:23:12 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9BFE.EF9776A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'Mark Pitts'" , "'SRavet@bangate.compaq.com'" Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:21:45 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Oops diagram didn't work... if anybody wants to see my idea... ill see = if I can attach it to a mail again! Mark ---------- From: Mark Pitts[SMTP:saxon@zymurgy.org] Sent: Friday, September 06, 1996 1:52 PM To: 'DIY EFI'; 'SRavet@bangate.compaq.com' Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 You are better off with oval pistons, seeing as pistons cant turn, and = makes the head a much better shape for fitting multi valves into , or = just 2 big valves, but remember guys.... If you want revs as well = (which, I don't think many of you Americans do... (cubes don't make = revs)), you need small low mass valves so that they can close in time! Here is a silly twin spark idea: =20 If you get my drift (or for that matter....... My email works :)) Mark ---------- From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com[SMTP:SRavet@bangate.compaq.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 1996 1:17 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Daniel Ridge Wrote: | Todd's right about chamber shape and flame proopgation. Multivalves = are a | hack around the hard limits that geometry places on things -- we're | constrained to have circular valves, it's tough to use real estate = well | when you are nesting circles(valves) in circles(cylinder(head)s). The | multivalve people didn't want multivales -- they really wanted=20 rectangular | valves :). This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I guess = they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners = being=20 bad, but what about a nice oval shape? --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 12:56:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA14999; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:46:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14994; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:46:42 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40927; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:46:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:46:40 -0500 Message-Id: <9609061246.AA40927@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: re: Electronic Ignition Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >"Tony Bryant" Wrote: >| >| Does the ignition condensor/capactitor serve any function >| other than to reduce arcing across points? Do I need one >| if I switch using a transistor? (with 400V zener clamp) >| >| Facts, not theories, please.. [ snip ] >Are you talking about electronic ignition or point ignition? I've never >actually worked on a point ignition (not that old), but I'm pretty sure the >condensor stores a charge, which is discharged thru the coil to make a >spark. That is CD (capacitive discharge) ignition. Electronic ignitions >usually charge the coil primary during the dwell period, interrupting the >charge causes the field to collapse and generate a spark, no capacitor >needed. HEI ignitions (from GM) are electronic, but have a condensor. The >only purpose of the condensor is noise suppression for the radio, however. >The car will run fine without it. > A coil (inductor) stores magnetic energy. When a current is passed through it (maybe 4 amps for an auto coil) and then the exciting voltage is removed, the collapsing magnetic field effectively tries to keep the current at 4 amps -- impossible with no load -- so, the voltage reverses and goes to a very high value. That's not theory, it's fact. So, when points close, current begins to flow while magnetic field expands (this is why 'dwell' is important -- need time for the field to expand sufficiently). When field reaches its max, the current is also at its max. This is all done at the applied 12 volts (approx). The coil is an autotransformer (meaning the secondary and primary are the same winding). When the points open, the coil responds with a nasty reverse voltage (maybe 300 volts on ignition coil), which is stepped up by secondary to approx 100 times that amount -- or until something arcs over (i.e. the plug). Now, it's the nasty 300 volts and attempted 4 amperes that is generated when the points open that generate a nice arc across them as they are opening, effectively doing an arc weld job on them. The capacitor's job is to absorb that transient voltage / current spike for a brief time, effectively bypassing it around your points and protecting them. Transistor and CD systems only use the points for switching an electronic circuit. There is no 'real' inductance attached to the points any- more -- therefore no real need for a cap. In fact, the cap will slow down the rise/fall of the signal, so it really should NOT be there. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 13:16:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA15029; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:06:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA15024; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:06:20 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29750; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:06:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:06:18 -0500 Message-Id: <9609061306.AA29750@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 02:44 PM 9/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >>I think 12 mpg from a 455 is fantastic. Can't see how you get this >>good -- FI or carbed. What's your rear end ratio? >> >>tom > >OK, I new I'd get some mail when I said that, so for the curious, my car is a: > >'78 Trans Am >1970 455 2bolt main from a Bonneville >stored heads from that motor (10.25:1 cr too high) > [ snip ] I haven't dug up my stuff about VE and CFM and displacement, but seems to me that an xxx CID engine is a pump that always pumps xxx CI of air every two revolutions (assuming a 4-stroke). All that changes is the density (i.e. throttle closed = lower density A/F charge). And I thought that running R-E-A-L lean meant burning things up (I KNOW it does!). So, it takes a certain amount of fuel to just coast, much less make any power. Like I said, I haven't dug up the stuff, but I remember trying to mathematically anticipate 'good' mileage for my 351-W with a 3.50:1 ratio diff and was able to think 14 to 16 would be a reasonable goal with higher values theoretically feasible. So, how does one take a 400+ CID engine and get that kind of mileage unless he's running a 1.7:1 rear end (i.e. L-O-W r's) -- even if he had 100% VE ? Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 14:13:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA15346; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:05:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.dnr.state.ga.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15341; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:05:07 -0400 Received: from EPD-TT-Message_Server by mail.dnr.state.ga.us with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:15:26 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:02:39 -0500 From: Fred Francis To: diy_efi Subject: Sequential VS Batch fire systems Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi RABBITT Wrote: .... All the applications that Robert J. Harris quoted in his original post were high-speed, high power applications, and sequential fuelling is not going to give you anything here. What sequential injection does give is better low speed, part load combustion stability leading to better real-world driveability. Would anyone like to comment on batch fire vs sequential injection systems? What are the real world advantages to each under specific circumstances? GM went to sequential systems recently on the new camaros and corvettes, WHY? Is anything really gained with a sequential system in terms of performance, efficiency or driveablility? ~~fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 14:34:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA15468; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:27:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15463; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:27:52 -0400 Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (egate.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.138]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19367 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:27:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from westhub.mnet.uswest.com (westhub.mnet.uswest.com [148.156.21.6]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA02369 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:27:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cp.uswc.uswest.com (cp [151.116.143.213]) by westhub.mnet.uswest.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA04468 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:30:10 -0700 Received: from sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com by cp.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA08783; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:26:14 -0600 From: scicior@cp.uswc.uswest.com (Steve Ciciora) Received: by sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com (5.0/uswc-solaris-client.950829) id AA19212; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:26:15 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:26:15 -0600 Message-Id: <9609061426.AA19212@sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Water Injection X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi O.K., My daily driver (w/ 160k miles) is starting to knock unless I use premium. I think I'll put in a water injection system, but have a few questions. Can you dump in too much water? I plan on a winshield washer pump, and to have it vaccum operated. I will monitor the map signal and start pumping water when the engine gets below a certian vaccum. What I could do with another op-amp and a 555 is have the water pump come in at 50% duty cycle at one vaccum, and full on when it drops below another vaccum. I don't think I'll get carried away with using a pic chip, because I really don't know the relationship between engine load and knock. Would it be better to have the water controlled off throttle position? Thanks for your time, -Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 16:11:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA16354; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:04:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16349; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:04:40 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial006h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.71]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA05300 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322FE963.5270@net-quest.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:05:39 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History References: <9609061306.AA29750@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > I haven't dug up my stuff about VE and CFM and displacement, but seems to > me that an xxx CID engine is a pump that always pumps xxx CI of air every > two revolutions (assuming a 4-stroke). All that changes is the density > (i.e. throttle closed = lower density A/F charge). And I thought that > running R-E-A-L lean meant burning things up (I KNOW it does!). So, it > takes a certain amount of fuel to just coast, much less make any power. > > Like I said, I haven't dug up the stuff, but I remember trying to mathematically > anticipate 'good' mileage for my 351-W with a 3.50:1 ratio diff and was able > to think 14 to 16 would be a reasonable goal with higher values theoretically > feasible. > > So, how does one take a 400+ CID engine and get that kind of mileage > unless he's running a 1.7:1 rear end (i.e. L-O-W r's) -- even if he had > 100% VE ? > > Tom Tom, who cares about CFM, it varies too much too worry about. As well as your air fuel ratio is determined by mass not CFM. You only run 100%VE at close to or wide open throttle, unless you're turbo'd. At very light throttle conditions, your VE is determined by pressure AND rpm's. Sure, your VE still follows your torque curve, but your mass flow into the engine is very minimal at high vacuum situations. For example, running down the road at 100%VE, or WOT, you might be running 8 to 10 ms injector timing, where as at light throttle conditions, you might see 1.5 to 2 ms. Same RPM, different pressure, thus less fuel. Sure it's the same CFM inside the manifold, but prior to the throttle body (at atmospheric pressure) the CFM is much lower. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 16:27:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA16391; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:19:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16386; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:19:48 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09545 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:22:07 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA12449; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:19:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Sequential VS Batch fire systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Fred Francis wrote: > Would anyone like to comment on batch fire vs sequential injection systems? > What are the real world advantages to each under specific circumstances? GM > went to sequential systems recently on the new camaros and corvettes, WHY? Is > anything really gained with a sequential system in terms of performance, > efficiency or driveablility? > Off the cuff, I'd say that batch fire vs sequential fire might not make much difference at very high revs, since the fuel injected to the closed intake ports woudl only sit there for a short time, while at low revs the sitting time is longer, which would reduce drivability. For a 4 cylinder engine at 6,000rpm, 180deg of crankshaft rotation takes 5msec. If the fuel is injected at the begining of the exhaust stroke (intake closed, batch injection of 2 at a time, this is the "odd" injector), the fuel sits there for 5msec before the intake opens. At 1,000rpm the fuel will sit there 30msec. Assuming the evaporation and droplet enlargement follow an exponetial function of the general form y(t) = y(0)*e^at, and that the amount of fuel injected at the initial time y(0) is the same for each case (a gross simplification), and normalizing by letting a = 1, gives a simple expontial function. The value of e^0.005 = 1.005012520859 and e^0.030 = 1.030454533954. Which I calculate as only a 2.5% increase. Unless y(0) is very different for each case, then there isn't much difference between the two. Of course, this could be completely wrong..... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 16:32:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA16460; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:29:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16455; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:29:12 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00756 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA20157 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.jf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #6) Fri, 06 Sep 96 09:29:06 PDT Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 09:25:00 PDT From: Todd King Message-ID: To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: hi compressions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi <<< From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:25:09 +0000 Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 John Faubion wrote: > Actually the big reason for multivalve chambers is more area is exposed > around the valve to flow fuel. Two small valves have much more flow > capacity than 1 large valve but is more expensive that manufacture. That's also what Yamaha though, they went to 5 valves to get even more flow. They did pick up flow, but on the F1 motors the 4 valve engines made more power still. Point is. It's not all flow, but combustion chamber shape and flame propogation as well. >>> Ahh, Yamaha's 5 valve with the lens-shaped comb. chamber. The 3 smaller valves maximize the use of the available chamber area plus expose much more total opening (perimeter) quicker than two (or one) larger valves, kind of like getting a free increase in cam ramp steepness. As Todd said, people were puzzled that the engine was down on power compared to the 4 valve; one symptom I heard about was that it liked a surprising amount of ignition advance, indicating a slow burn, although the chamber was "engineered" for a fast burn. A benefit of the fast burn chambers is the ability to increase compression ratio ("outrun the fuse", as someone had recently posted) so the street version was set up for around 11:1 CR. I wonder if Yamaha had enough of a squish area in their chamber? All that valve stuffing may have cut down on the available squish area... Wish I had a job like that, designing chambers, playin' on the dyno, etc. Gee Todd K., need any help over there? :-) Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 18:01:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA16672; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:55:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16667; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:55:51 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42036; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:55:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:55:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9609061755.AA42036@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >> So, how does one take a 400+ CID engine and get that kind of mileage >> unless he's running a 1.7:1 rear end (i.e. L-O-W r's) -- even if he had >> 100% VE ? >> >> Tom > >Tom, > who cares about CFM, it varies too much too worry about. As well as >your air fuel ratio is determined by mass not CFM. > You only run 100%VE at close to or wide open throttle, unless you're >turbo'd. At very light throttle conditions, your VE is determined by >pressure AND rpm's. Sure, your VE still follows your torque curve, but >your mass flow into the engine is very minimal at high vacuum >situations. > For example, running down the road at 100%VE, or WOT, you might be >running 8 to 10 ms injector timing, where as at light throttle >conditions, you might see 1.5 to 2 ms. Same RPM, different pressure, >thus less fuel. > Sure it's the same CFM inside the manifold, but prior to the throttle >body (at atmospheric pressure) the CFM is much lower. > >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering > So, you're telling me these mpg figures don't bother you? Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 18:49:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA16885; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:41:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA16880; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:41:06 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA06877 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:41:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Water Injection In-Reply-To: <9609061426.AA19212@sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Why not just one decarbonizing treatment to eliminate the accumulated goo? Run the engine at a fast idle and spritz in water from a spray bottle. Steam cleans it all right out. GM supposedly sells some snake oil that does the same thing. I seem to recall that good old ATF works the best of all. Then you won't need water injection. If you really want to go ahead with your design, I think you'll need to add a solenoid valve between the manifold and the pump to avoid high vacuum sucking the water right past. John On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Steve Ciciora wrote: > > O.K., My daily driver (w/ 160k miles) is starting to knock unless I use > premium. I think I'll put in a water injection system, but have a few > questions. Can you dump in too much water? I plan on a winshield washer > pump, and to have it vaccum operated. I will monitor the map signal and > start pumping water when the engine gets below a certian vaccum. What > I could do with another op-amp and a 555 is have the water pump come in > at 50% duty cycle at one vaccum, and full on when it drops below another > vaccum. I don't think I'll get carried away with using a pic chip, > because I really don't know the relationship between engine load and > knock. > Would it be better to have the water controlled off throttle position? > Thanks for your time, > -Steven Ciciora > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 19:45:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA17080; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:30:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17075; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:30:42 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx12-17.teleport.com (ip-pdx14-03.teleport.com [206.163.123.67]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19140 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609061928.MAA19140@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #262 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au >Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:30:32 est >Subject: re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) > >>In a message dated 96-09-04 16:06:27 EDT, wright@uspto.gov (Dirk >>Wright) >>writes: >> >>>I remember my old alfa with the spica mechanical injection had one >>>throttle per cylinder. pretty cool. >> >>So does the Lotus Turbo Esprit, but with elctronic fuel injection.... > >So do all EFI Alfa 33/145/146 boxer engines. > >Does anyone know what would happen if you joined all the chokes >together on the down-stream side of each throttle, kind of like >forming a mini-plenum for improving balance robustness at low throttle >openings, but still allowing the correct runner design and plenum >volume up-stream of the blades for WOT performance? > >Anyone tried this? Any theories? Yeah! I got a theory or two! Balance robustness should be tuneable without mini-plenums. The most I can see is a dinky vacuum line between ports to establish a average vacuum reference for the ecu. Any real tuner :-) would be more than happy to get out the mercury tubes to balance out their turbocharged, intercooled, nitrous injected, port throttled efi v-8 :-> Anybody know where I can get some rubber to put around the asphalt roller I'm going to need for rear tire? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 20:32:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA17408; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:15:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA17401; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:15:04 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04891 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:15:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199609062015.PAA04891@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:20:04 +0000 Subject: troubleshooting a taurus Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry if this is a bit off subject. A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI problem. The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and filter are good. Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? Any insight would be appreciated TIA -mike mfahrion@bb-elec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 21:31:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17652; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:09:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17647; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:09:32 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p1s16.beaches.net [206.240.81.116]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01286 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:08:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609062108.QAA01286@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: hi compressions: wasDIY_EFI Digest V1 #258 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:58:31 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > John Faubion wrote: > > > > Actually the big reason for multivalve chambers is more area is exposed > > around the valve to flow fuel. Two small valves have much more flow > > capacity than 1 large valve but is more expensive that manufacture. > > That's also what Yamaha though, they went to 5 valves to get even more > flow. They did pick up flow, but on the F1 motors the 4 valve engines > made more power still. > Point is. It's not all flow, but combustion chamber shape and flame > propogation as well. I agree in as much as with everything there is a break even point. Considering how crowded a four valve chamber is and how the two open valves affect each others flow, I can only imagine the problems with three open valves! John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 21:43:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17690; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:31:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17685; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:31:40 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@lbx-ca8-18.ix.netcom.com [204.31.251.82]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA06908 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:31:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:31:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199609062131.OAA06908@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi mike wrote: >... >The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or >over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no >firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't >seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and >filter are good. > >Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure >when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - >forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? No accumulator, it needs to be a leak-free system, for obvious reasons. It does sound like fuel pressure has gone away. Assuming this is a V6, (you don't say, and you don't even say what year) there is a Shrader valve near the front where you can measure fuel pressure. It should be 35 psi at idle, and about 25-30 after sitting. Turning on the ign should cause fuel pump to run a couple of seconds, then stop. Try switching on and off once or twice before starting to see if that helps. EFI in my '86 Sable V6 has been almost flawless in 115K miles. Had to correct a weak idle recently by de-coking the air bypass. RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 21:48:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17701; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:38:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail1.deltanet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17696; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:38:14 -0400 Received: from najay-pc.nb.rockwell.com (najay-pc.nb.rockwell.com [129.172.207.202]) by mail1.deltanet.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01523 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609062138.OAA01523@mail1.deltanet.com> From: "George Najarian" To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 14:37:40 -0800 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: George Najarian's Registered PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Fuel pressure bleeds down overnight, but should build to normal in ~2 seconds or less. On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:20:04 +0000, Mike Fahrion wrote: >Sorry if this is a bit off subject. > >A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which >hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI >problem. > >The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or >over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no >firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't >seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and >filter are good. > >Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure >when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - >forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? > >Any insight would be appreciated > >TIA >-mike >mfahrion@bb-elec.com > George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS E/SP (14.21/100.81) najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ Team.Net Team OS/2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 21:54:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17711; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:41:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17706; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:41:27 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36199; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:41:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:41:18 -0500 Message-Id: <9609062141.AA36199@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Intel Engine Control Overview Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Intel has some interesting data on EFI on its web site. The following was taken from: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/engback.htm It's a lot of stuff -- I hope it doesn't cause anyone any problems. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Engine Control Overview=20 Press Backgrounder December 1995=20 B.C.--Before Microcontrollers It was probably inevitable, the application of computer technology to automobiles, and skyrocketing fuel prices due to the energy crisis certainly accelerated the process. But early engine controls were far from the sophisticated digital devices we use to day.=20 Electronic engine control first came to light in 1978 in what was called a "closed loop" carburetor. It was a response to the oil crisis and promised marginally better fuel economy. At the same time, national concern over airborne pollutants propelled inv estigation into the origins of automotive exhaust components, how pollutants were formed, and how they could be= abated.=20 Why electronic control? Gasoline-powered Otto cycle engines are simple. Combine measured amounts of air and fuel in a confined space and ignite them. The pressure of expanding gasses forces a piston to move. This motion is translated into rotational movement. Like all simple things, there's more than meets the eye.=20 In the 70's, engines relied on mechanically generated signals to ignite the fuel/air mixture. Electrical energy from a battery was stepped up from 12 volts to many thousand volts by a coil. A mechanical "distributor" selected the appropriate spark plug and sent a signal along a wire. That selection "window" was wide, the ignition signal (spark) could be initiated any time within many degrees of rotation as a "rotor" contacted mechanical switch points inside the distributor.=20 Science knew that the outcome of combustion--both power and pollutants--was greatly affected by how precisely the fuel/air mixture approached theoretical perfection and when the ignition event took place. To get clean air, fuel had to be precisely mixed i n a "stoichiometric" 14.7:1 ratio. The mixture had to be ignited at a precise instant that varied with load, speed,= and other factors. Mechanical devices could not achieve the required precision and automakers soon approached Intel, a manufacturer of mic rocomputers and microcontrollers. (A microcomputer chip with a single preprogrammed task is referred to as a microcontroller.)=20 Early discussions centered on sensor data~ what information an engine microcontroller would require. Critical needs included the rotational position of both crankshaft and camshaft, and air flow. Throttle position and rate of throttle position change (the transmission wants to know when you need to accelerate quickly) were needed, too.=20 Rotation sensors i.e, crankshaft, camshaft, and ABS sensors at the wheels utilize a wide variety of technologies. Optical sensors may use infrared Light Emitting Diodes to peer through a slotted wheel. Other sensor designs interpret the rise and fall of magnetic energy as a metallic part approaches and departs. Interestingly, many very precise sensors receive only 4 signals per 360~ of rotation--exact position is calculated mathematically, predicting not only position, but whether the engine is accelerat ing or decelerating. This accuracy allows the fuel/air mixture to be ignited at a precisely selected moment appropriate for engine power and emissions= control.=20 Other data signals are critical to powertrain control. The microcontroller has to know temperatures in the engine's water cooling system along with oil temperature and transmission temperature. Fuel injection requires knowing atmospheric density and how quickly air is being drawn into the intake manifold. Air temperature affects air density. Hydraulic pressure information is sent to the microcontroller by automatic transmissions, as are battery voltage, road speed, and oil pressure.=20 Every signal adds calculation complexity as it increases the precision of control.=20 Within the last five years engine microcontrollers have also been required to determine shift points as the industry installed electronically controlled (vs. hydraulic/mechanical) automatic transmissions. The precise management provided by digital control means every automatic transmission will soon be under numeric control.=20 As engine control advances, so does data complexity. Oxygen sensors enabled controllers to accurately mix air and fuel based on combustion results. Now, a second oxygen sensor placed down stream from the catalytic converter infers the state of the catalyt ic converter (e.g. converters work best when hot; they suffer contaminant damage, even aging.)=20 At one time it was thought that some kind of sensor would be added to each cylinder to monitor every combustion event. This would have added enormous cost and complexity to engines. Instead, by increasing the power of software--placing added burdens on th e engine computer/controller--events can be inferred or predicted. This increase in computational power places great demands on microcontroller performance.=20 Computer chip families or "architectures" may be understood by an analogy to a subdivision. Every house may look different, yet it is built from common components. And the core structure--placement of furnace, water and sewer--may be identical in every bu ilding. Computer chips are built the same way with a core framework embellished by appropriate structural add-ons. Consideration is given to growth (both in raw processing power and memory) and additional input (more sensor data links.) So a microcontroll er can add more memory or calculation power up to its architecture's limit, just as a growing family can add rooms or central air conditioning.=20 Into the 90s. Power and Memory. If controlling what happens in an engine and automatic transmission were not sufficient challenges, a greater one has emerged from legislation. Specifically, On Board Diagnostics II (second generation) laws. These require monitoring automotive systems th at affect emissions. Not only does your cars' engine control unit have to "watch" what goes on and record troubles for service technicians as they happen, OBD II rules require the prediction of deterioration of the following: catalytic converter, fuel de livery and evaporative emissions systems, crankshaft and camshaft position sensors, oxygen sensors, manifold air temperature sensor, ignition system and others.=20 Let's look at the most difficult problem, ignition misfire.=20 A four-cylinder engine cruising on the freeway at 65 mph revolves at approximately 3,200 revolutions per minute or 6400 spark events per minute. Because of moisture, voltage drop, or a variety of other factors, some misfire is inevitable. The engine micro controller monitors combustion and should, for instance, 6 of 20 sparks in a row fail in any one cylinder, the engine controller must notify the driver "SERVICE ENGINE SOON." But what if you splashed through a deep puddle and a damp wire caused a temporar y misfire?= =20 Sophisticated algorithms examine error data and query whether the event is recurring. If it was an isolated incident, as in our damp spark plug wire example above, the check engine light is extinguished.=20 This benefits the consumer. When a car arrives for service, modern computer-powered diagnostic equipment can directly interrogate the on-board microcontroller and elicit a specific response. This could enable the mechanic to go directly to, for instance, spark plug number 4 and begin= repair.=20 This sophisticated diagnostic power requires roughly the same computational capability as the engine controller itself.=20 Because of increasing complexity, responsibilities, and the sheer number of calculations, engine microcontrollers need increased power to avoid being overwhelmed. Just as desktop computers evolved from early 8088 PC Jr. machines into today's Pentium=AE processor powered models, so have engine microcontrollers changed.=20 The latest generation of microcontrollers, like Intel's 83C196EA, exemplify this vastly improved processing power and communications ability.=20 Up to Date Data Collection Microcontrollers utilize digital signals. Sensor data (voltage, temperature, linear and rotational velocities, etc.) must be converted from continuous or analog information into the digital form required by microcontrollers. This Analog-to-Digital convers ion is typically performed within the microcontroller.=20 Another critical need is the ability to capture and compare events as they happen. And high-speed input and output channels transport data to the microcontroller for action. The microprocessor core itself needs raw power and speed as it executes the complex instruction codes called algorithms.=20 Once sensors, algorithms and the microprocessor core have done their work, control signals are sent out to tell the engine what to do. High-speed channels specify when and how long to fire spark plugs, when and how long to send fuel through the injectors , or when to shift to a different gear. And there is a need to query sensors for updated data in return.=20 Intel's new 83C196EA microcontroller harmonizes with modern engine control needs. It has 16 Analog-to-Digital converter channels built in. Its new higher speed core zips along twice as fast--32 MHz vs. 16 MHz--as its predecessor. This kind of speed is optimum for power train control, particularly its high-speed I/O for controlling electronic transmissions. The family features 17 event capture-and-compare channels and eight capture-only channels for a total of 25 high-speed Input/Output channels.=20 Intel's history in engine control electronics is lengthy, from the first 1983 Ford EEC-IV based on the 8061 microcontroller to today's modern 8065 chip set, also known as the EEC-V. Today, Ford is still using the 8065 in many of their new vehicles produced through the start of the next decade. The 16-bit architectures, such as the 8065 and MCS=AE 96 controllers, have been widely accepted in Europe and the U.S in ABS, engine control, and networking applications. From the introduction of the 8061, Intel has continued to provide more innovative and highly integrated microcontrollers in order to help their customers with evolving powertrain applications. Specifically, the 83C196EA doubles the performance of our existing microcontrollers while adding more functionality. The 83C196EA will provide designers with lower development costs and time-to-market. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 22:08:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17901; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:56:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from galaxy.galstar.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17896; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:56:10 -0400 Received: (rmadursk@localhost) by galaxy.galstar.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA17840 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:56:10 -0500 From: Ron Madurski Message-Id: <199609062156.QAA17840@galaxy.galstar.com> Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:56:09 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199609062015.PAA04891@rs232.bb-elec.com> from "Mike Fahrion" at Sep 6, 96 03:20:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 942 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi : : :Sorry if this is a bit off subject. : :A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which :hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI :problem. : :The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or :over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no :firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't :seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and :filter are good. : :Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure :when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - :forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? Yup and it's easy to check. Put a pressure gauge on the fueln line in and see if it drops while setting for awhile. : :Any insight would be appreciated : :TIA :-mike :mfahrion@bb-elec.com : -- Ron Madurski rmadursk@galaxy.galstar.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 22:29:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA18013; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:14:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA18004; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:14:07 -0400 Received: from slip-92-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46872; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:14:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:14:04 -0500 Message-Id: <9609062214.AA46872@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 2 (High) To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Knock sensor spectrum? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Tom, > >I'd appreciate a copy of the application note spra039.pdf if possible. > I've gotten a lot of requests for this -- it's taking up a lot of my mail handler's time. If you can, it can be obtained from: Sources: http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/psheets/appnote.htm You have to go through a couple of harmless gyrations to get a 'loser' name and password before it can be downloaded. You can ftp it from: ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I put it in the 'incoming' directory, and it's not protected, so can be downloaded from there ... I suppose it will be put somewhere else (maybe 'pub' ??) in a little while. While you're there, check out the 'caldemo.zip' file which runs on 'real' computers (PC-comp / DOS) and is an example of an EEC-IV calibrator. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 22:51:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA18103; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:28:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA18098; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:28:48 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p1s16.beaches.net [206.240.81.116]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03458 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:28:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609062228.RAA03458@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Ancient History Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:18:24 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > So, you're telling me these mpg figures don't bother you? > > Tom > Well Tom actually no they don't. You see I have a 78 El Camino with a 427 fat block. I built it quite mild to begin with and ran a Turbo 400 auto behind it with a 2.73 rear axle. With this combination I had an average of 12-14 mpg in town and 21+ on the highway. With a switch to 3.55:1 rear ratio, my in town mileage stepped up and my highway mileage dropped to 15-16 mpg. Next step is a 700-R4 so that I can get my highway mileage back. This is also using a QuadraJet 4bbl. With my EFI project I hope to improve both sets of mileage figures. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 6 23:30:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA18172; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:07:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA18167; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:06:56 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 6 Sep 96 17:54:02 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 6 Sep 96 17:54:00 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Fri, 6 Sep 96 17:53:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 17:52:15 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: troubleshooting a taurus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi "Mike Fahrion" Wrote: | | Sorry if this is a bit off subject. | | A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which | hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI | problem. | | The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or | over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no | firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't | seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and | filter are good. | | Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure | when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - | forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? | | Any insight would be appreciated Maybe a leaky injector causing the pressure to bleed off, but also flooding the engine? I wouldn't think it would take long for the pump to build up pressure, but if the engine is flooded it would take a few cranks to get the gas out. Sometimes the ECM recognizes a "clear flood" condition while cranking and the pedal is WOT. It doesn't inject any fuel, or very little, to allow the flood to clear. It should be simple enough to put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail and see if it maintains pressure. --steve | | TIA | -mike | mfahrion@bb-elec.com | Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 01:08:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA18599; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:53:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18589; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:53:20 -0400 Received: from Default (port17.tserver1.ao.net [205.244.242.117]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA25269 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:53:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:53:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199609070053.UAA25269@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>> So, how does one take a 400+ CID engine and get that kind of mileage >>> unless he's running a 1.7:1 rear end (i.e. L-O-W r's) -- even if he had >>> 100% VE ? 3.08:1 gears, actually > >So, you're telling me these mpg figures don't bother you? > >Tom Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I mean, I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them; i'd say 12mpg from a 455 is much more believable because I've been driving the car eight months since I built the engine and keep very accurate track of the gas mileage. I calibrate my tach every month - if I spin that engine over 5300rpm it's over - I use a friend's digital speedometer to do so. I know what the correction factor on the speedometer is, It's so precise I can tell tire wear (because the speedometer constant changes just a bit). Just saying so doesn't make it so, I realize that; but believe me, I'm not one of those "oh yeah - 30mpg at least from my v-8". I have driven in far too many 30mpg 5.0L mustangs (only to get 18-20) and 27mpg 5.7L '95 Z/28s (only to get 22.5) Maybe those cars get that kind of mileage at 60mph going down a hill with a tailwind, a real skinny driver and at a high altitude (higher altitudes get better gas mileage, especially with efi). When I say highway, I mean just that: jump on the freeway and drive. That also means slowing down a little, speeding up, passing the old people, showing a Porshe a thing or two :), and finding a place on I75 or I95 to get gas (you know how you get off a freeway only to find out the gas station you're stopping for is out of business and then you realize why the billboard had such a cheap price) AND NOW, A QUESTION, a question: how much better is using some sort of mechanical injection that creates an excellent a/f mixture (dilutes it greatly) over using a conventinal efi injector on the manifold pointing at a valve? Is it really that important that the fuel is injected as close to the valve as possible? At high RPMs it doesn't matter anyway 'cause the fuel will just sit on the valve anyway. What I'm getting at is which plays a greater role at low RPMs: a/f mixture, temp of mixture, or timing of injection? What I'm trying to decide whether I should conceive some sort of mechanical fuel injection system (timed or untimed) or should I just drill 8 injector holes in my intake manifold, buy 8 injectors (not cheap), and go from there? Arnaldo Echevarria aec@ao.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 05:28:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18961; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:14:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18956; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:14:37 -0400 From: MaxBoost@aol.com Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA29548 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:14:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:14:37 -0400 Message-ID: <960907011436_303303473@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel on the intake valves Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >They mentioned that the injectors have been repositioned and the intake has >a small section cutout along the top of the port allowing the fuel to squirt >more directly on or towards the intake valve. >I thought this was interesting, especially considering we were just talking >about the Hilburn systems. Coincidence???? >-Tom FWIW, Nissan has been doing it since 1984 on their V6 engines. I'm not sure about some of the other makers though. Actually, most of the fuel atomization takes place through evaporation of the fuel on the hot intake valve (at lower engine speeds). Various people have tried open valve injection timing in the past without major success. I have heard it described as "Making Oil" due to the large amounts of un evaporated fuel that gets washed down the bore at lower rpms. Supposedly the only way to make it work is to aim the injector to hit the really hot exhaust valve. Obviously this requires a specific head and manifold setup to accomplish. There was a thread about injection timing and batch vs sequential a while ago on this list that may be archived somewhere. The jist of it was that at WOT and high rpm, injector timing had little effect, due to the limited time available to inject fuel and the ability of the injector to flow fuel. At low engine speed and during transients, injector timing has a BIG effect on response and torque. On another note, I read somewhere that BMW's F1 engine had 4 injectors per cylinder and timed the injection to wait until the exhaust valve closed to start injecting fuel. This was in the fuel economy runs in '85-'86 to save blowing fuel through on overlap. Max. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 05:35:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18976; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:24:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18971; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:24:31 -0400 From: GEGnTx@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA28257 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:24:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:24:31 -0400 Message-ID: <960907012430_303307097@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: New follower... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello, I am building a rather unusual street rod. The parts are coming together nicely so far and it looks like EFI is in my future !! I have looked for the information needed to do the EFI conversion on a 1968 Ford 460 CID and through this newsgroup I will be closer to getting off the information highway and onto I-35 in my dream machine. (I'm really excited about this, so please pardon the background babbling...) The car is a 1979 Mazda RX-7 with a full 2x3 rectangular tube chassis, it has a Mustang II front suspension with 15" Granada rotors GM Calipers and the ECI adapters that make this mix work. The rear end is a narrowed (28" flange to flange) Ford 9" rear with 4-link, coil-overs and 2.75 posi gears to bring in streetable RPM from the C-6 Ford tranny. I picked up a neat program (striptune) from surfing the alt.autos.rod-n-custom newsgroup that helped me justify these choices. (It should run in the low 9's 1/4 mi) The ultimate goal is to have a 1-off streetable big block / small car combo that I can build myself right here at home. I want EFI and turbos also to make my hobby car technically balanced and to put some distance between my car and anything that is considered a "performance" automobile. With this out of the way, I am looking for tips on the EEC-IV Ford computer or anything better suited for large displacement and adaptable for turbo use later. I am starting from the ground up, and right now only have engine hardware (early 460 motor and 1988 EFI manifold/injectors). I have some experience in "C" coding and a good understanding of digital electronics and am ready to learn the controllers, drivers, maps and the rest from you guys... Gary Graham Round Rock, Tx. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 06:12:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA19048; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:58:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA19043; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:58:36 -0400 Received: by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id BAA24107; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:58:35 -0400 Date: 07 Sep 96 01:57:33 EDT From: Jim Steck <72614.557@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY-EFI digest Subject: water injection Message-ID: <960907055732_72614.557_IHD33-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >O.K., My daily driver (w/ 160k miles) is starting to knock unless I use >premium. I think I'll put in a water injection system, but have a few >questions. Can you dump in too much water? I plan on a winshield washer >pump, and to have it vaccum operated. I will monitor the map signal and >start pumping water when the engine gets below a certian vaccum. What >I could do with another op-amp and a 555 is have the water pump come in >at 50% duty cycle at one vaccum, and full on when it drops below another >vaccum. I don't think I'll get carried away with using a pic chip, >because I really don't know the relationship between engine load and >knock. A good treatise on water injection can be found in Sir Henry Ricardo's fourth edition of "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" pages 165-171. His experiments were aimed primarily at increasing horsepower in supercharged aircraft engines by way of controlling detonation (with water) so that higher boost pressures could be used. At high boost, normal fuel mixtures were used, and an additional amount of water was added . . . up to 60% of the mass of the fuel. You shouldn't need nearly that much. He also suggested that mixing up to 50% methanol with the water helped improved its volatility. Jim Steck From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 14:48:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA19683; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:35:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ginger.vnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA19678; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:35:33 -0400 Received: from vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by ginger.vnet.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA00231 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:41:23 -0400 Received: from pop.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA29673 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:35:27 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (vts-char4-S18.vnet.net [166.82.9.128]) by pop.vnet.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA18571 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:35:27 -0400 Message-Id: <3231A10D.73@vnet.net> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 09:21:33 -0700 From: Greg Finnican Organization: Atlantic Motorsports X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Injector Flow Variation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What an injector's flow rating is and what it actually flows can vary quite a bit. When we ultrasonicly clean them it does not always bring them back in line. How much of this is manufacturing variation? After seeing the variation in injectors I can'nt imagine using an untested set in a performance application - certainly not a used set. I would like to hear others experience. greg@atlantic-motorsports.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 15:03:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA19711; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:53:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA19706; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:53:05 -0400 Received: from (rickydik@[204.31.251.107]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA16922 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 07:52:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 07:52:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199609071452.HAA16922@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rickydik@ix.netcom.com (RD Rick) Subject: Re: water injection; and methanol To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >... >He also suggested that mixing up to 50% methanol with the water helped >improved its volatility. >Jim Steck Word of warning. I have read that methanol is very corrosive to metal parts, while ethanol is not. I don't know if ethanol will work in that application. Ethanol costs more than gasoline, methanol costs much less; many SoCalif gas suppliers/stations have been accused of diluting their gas with methanol, causing serious damage to untold numbers of cars. Ethanol will counter the corrosive effects of methanol, if added in the right proportion. But now, I have read that the new oxygenated fuel has methanol.. There is an apparent increase in the number of car fires with it; probably due to corroded fuel pressure regulators. It happened to my '81 Vanagon last year. Fuel pressure went over 100psi, and leaks sprung up in lots of places. Post-mortem on the regulator showed it to be badly rusted inside. The input was also clogged with an unknown substance, like maybe rust crud from other parts. RD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 18:35:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA19988; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:11:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA19983; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:11:33 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA12118 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <323158A3.5FC3@net-quest.com> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 11:12:35 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History References: <9609061755.AA42036@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > So, you're telling me these mpg figures don't bother you? > > Tom Tom, Actually, we have a Chevy 3500 w/ a 454 and a 3.53 rear, and the mileage sucks. They're running the thing lean enough that it has quite the misfire at idle. It's leased and will probably be going back, otherwise we'd fix it. It only gets about 12 miles per gallon highway and about 8 around town. I'd almost be better off making 3 or four trips in a honda, and still save on fuel / tires / maintenance. Big motors get bad gas mileage. Period. There's too much friction involved to do much better. I'd bet you could get the motor up to mid 30's in mileage with optimum cam timing, port shape, combustion chamber shape and the like, but it'd be useless as a tow vehicle then. compromises. Oh well. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 21:53:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA20179; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:35:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA20174; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:35:32 -0400 Received: from pmeU21.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU21.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.22]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id OAA23245 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609072135.OAA23245@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:06 AM 9/6/96 -0500, Tom Cloud wrote: >I haven't dug up my stuff about VE and CFM and displacement, but seems to >me that an xxx CID engine is a pump that always pumps xxx CI of air every >two revolutions (assuming a 4-stroke). All that changes is the density >(i.e. throttle closed = lower density A/F charge). This would only be true if the engine is a perfect air pump. Due to a few major factors and a zillion minor ones, the engine's VE changes quite radically with RPM, and is in almost all cases <100%. This means that if the VE is 80% at a particular RPM, a cylinder is only packing 80% of it's true volume of air/fuel mixture into it at that speed. VE is related to, but not to be confused with overall energy conversion efficiency, which is much lower. You can tune the intake runners and exhaust system to give 100% or even greater than 100% VE's, but only over a very narrow RPM range. If you tuned the intake and exhaust paths to give optimum VE (which generally coincides with the torque peak) at, say, 3000 RPM, and chose an overall gear ratio that put 70 MPH right at 3000 RPM, in combination with some ignition advance and fuel leanout, you could get phenomenal (comparatively) cruising fuel mileage with any engine. It'd be no fun at all to drive, though, unless it had a 27 speed transmission... OEM's tune the system for a broad, flat VE (torque) curve, to give the engine driveability, economy, and durability. Aftermarket parts makers (and DIY'ers) attempt to increase the peak output at the expense of driveability, economy, and durability. It should also be possible to increase the economy at the expense of power output and driveability. The area under the VE curve, though, would stay pretty much the same for a given size NA engine, no matter which approach you take. TANSTAAFL. >And I thought that running R-E-A-L lean meant burning things up (I KNOW it >does!). So, it takes a certain amount of fuel to just coast, much less make >any power. This is only really true at WOT. Running lean, while trying to make maximum power from the engine is a bad idea. Different story at light loads or cruise. I have seen industrial methane powered stationary engines running at AFR's of 28:1, and they last a longggg time. Once you get the engine running, you can lean out the mixture until the engine is just making enough power to balance the power required by the load, (overcoming drag, friction, etc). Ask any pilot, he will tell you that as a plane reaches cruise altitude and speed, you lean it out until the engine is just making enough power to maintain cruise conditions. This gives maximum fuel economy. >So, how does one take a 400+ CID engine and get that kind of mileage >unless he's running a 1.7:1 rear end (i.e. L-O-W r's) -- even if he had >100% VE ? Fuel consumption is pretty much directly proportional to RPM (as is HP) for a given displacement. Fuel consumption is also tempered by the shape of the VE curve. Maximum efficiency occurs at the VE peak, which coincides with minimum energy required to produce a given amount of power. So, you're right, a low numerical rear end ratio or overdrive does increase mileage, but lowering RPM would also decrease HP and VE, and thus overall engine output. If you set it all up jesssstt raaht, so that VE, torque, and HP all peak at a low enough RPM, which also coincides with your normal cruising speed, voila`, mega-MPG. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 7 22:23:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA20220; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:06:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA20215; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:06:23 -0400 Received: from pmeU15.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU15.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.16]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id PAA24742 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609072206.PAA24742@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: water injection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:26 AM 9/6/96 -0600, Steve Cicoria wrote: >>O.K., My daily driver (w/ 160k miles) is starting to knock unless I use >>premium. I think I'll put in a water injection system, but have a few >>questions. Can you dump in too much water? I plan on a winshield washer >>pump, and to have it vaccum operated. I will monitor the map signal and >>start pumping water when the engine gets below a certian vaccum. What >>I could do with another op-amp and a 555 is have the water pump come in >>at 50% duty cycle at one vaccum, and full on when it drops below another >>vaccum. I don't think I'll get carried away with using a pic chip, >>because I really don't know the relationship between engine load and >>knock. Yep, you can dump in too much water. This may result (although unlikely) in hydraulic lock, which bends rods. More likely you'll just lose power instead, and/or have to fill the tank every 10 miles.... The Edelbrock Varajection system used 2 inputs, RPM (from the distributor) and manifold pressure (internal sensor). It uses a standard OEM type windshield washer tank with built in pump, and a couple of different nozzles that you can install in the top of the aircleaner. It has a small check valve in the water hose to prevent water from draining back to the tank. It has 3 pots for setting it up: RPM threshold - keeps water off until RPM setting is exceeded. This keeps water injection off at lower RPM's. MAP threshold - keeps water off until manifold pressure drops below setpoint. This keeps water off at part throttle + cruise. Volume - this controls the maximum pump speed, and thus the max volume of water injected. This was all done with a single LM324 quad opamp chip, a Motorola pressure sensor, and a handfull of r's, c's + t's. No PIC's. BTW, I have a complete one sitting in my garage collecting dust, if anyone's interested... And At 01:57 AM 9/7/96 EDT, Jim Steck wrote: >A good treatise on water injection can be found in Sir Henry Ricardo's fourth >edition of "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" pages 165-171. His >He also suggested that mixing up to 50% methanol with the water helped improved >its volatility. I used to use stright windshield washer antifreeze in mine. The Varajection is basically all plastic, so corrosion was not a problem. I read somewhere that using Acetone/methanol/water mix worked even better, the acetone acts as an octane boost. Of course, with this, you may have problems with the plastic parts. As far as using Ethanol, who wants to dump in a bottle of vodka with every fillup? D'rather park the car, drink the vodka, and dream about going fast... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 00:04:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA20329; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:49:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Zeus.Token.Net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA20324; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:49:36 -0400 Received: (from jshapiro@localhost) by Zeus.Token.Net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA03379; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:57:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Jody Shapiro Message-Id: <199609072357.TAA03379@Zeus.Token.Net> Subject: Water injection To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: blown-f-body@f-body.org, f-body@f-body.org, jshapiro@Zeus.Token.Net (Jody Shapiro) In-Reply-To: <199609072206.PAA24742@freya.van.hookup.net> from "Darrell Norquay" at Sep 7, 96 03:06:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [This message is being sent to both the Do-It-Yourself Fuel Injection mailing-list and the F-body mailing list] On the DIY_EFI reading list there's a book written by Jeff Hartman (published by Motorbooks International) titled "Fuel Injection: Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications". I've found this book to be pretty good in terms of info, including nitrous and turbo stuff. Anyway, Jeff Harman has a new book out, "High-Performance Automotive Fuels & Fluids" that I think is pretty informative as well. Issues of interest to me that he covers are water injection, nitrous oxide, octane & anti-knock additives, racing fuels (ethanol, methanol, etc.). He also discusses lubricants, including a detailed discussions of synthetic motor oil (why it's good) and oil additives (and why most are bad). Obviously, this book is no Heywood, but I found it to be pretty informative... ISBN is 0-7603-0054-2 and price is $19.95US for those interested. -Jody From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 01:47:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA20637; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:34:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA20632; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:34:03 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA26669; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:32:20 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:32:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Why no feedback under WOT? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From studying my 300ZX Manual (and looking at the ECM tuning program), I understand that the ECM runs open loop in WOT situations. Why? Is it because the ECM program uses the O2 sensors for MPG reasons only, or do the physics change under WOT? Thanks! Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 04:44:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA21127; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 04:34:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA21122; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:34:01 -0400 From: MaxBoost@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09498 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:33:57 -0400 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:33:57 -0400 Message-ID: <960908003356_279921087@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Flow Variation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >What an injector's flow rating is and what it actually flows can vary >quite a bit. When we ultrasonicly clean them it does not always bring >them back in line. How much of this is manufacturing variation? After >seeing the variation in injectors I can'nt imagine using an untested set >in a performance application - certainly not a used set. I would like to >hear others experience. greg@atlantic-motorsports.com Thats why so many injector service/sales company's have sprung up in the past few years. In showroom stock racing it has been the rage to flow the injectors and then install the rich ones on the cylinders that run lean etc. At Cosworth they flow each injector on the bench before running them. This allows them to make sets and to seriel numbereach one to track their life. Nissan rates their injectors in sets, they are 0-5% > spec or 0-5% < spec. When you replace one it has to match the rest of the set and there are usually 2 or 3 part numbers for one flow rate. Max. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 06:07:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA21251; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 05:56:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA21246; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:56:20 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p1s09.beaches.net [206.240.81.109]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20003 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609080556.AAA20003@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Ancient History Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:45:48 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > power from the engine is a bad idea. Different story at light loads or > cruise. I have seen industrial methane powered stationary engines running at > AFR's of 28:1, and they last a longggg time. Once you get the engine Whoa! As soon as you changed fuel (methane) you changed the stoichiometric ratio! So your comparison of 28:1 on methane means absolutely nothing when related to gasoline. Its an apples to oranges. In addition you wouldn't want to lean out an engine to reach maximum power. Max power will occur with a slightly richer than stoich mixture. While best efficiency will occur leaner than stoich. > etc). Ask any pilot, he will tell you that as a plane reaches cruise > altitude and speed, you lean it out until the engine is just making enough > power to maintain cruise conditions. This gives maximum fuel economy. True. > right, a low numerical rear end ratio or overdrive does increase mileage, > but lowering RPM would also decrease HP and VE, and thus overall engine Mainly by reducing frictional losses at the lower RPM. > output. If you set it all up jesssstt raaht, so that VE, torque, and HP all > peak at a low enough RPM, which also coincides with your normal cruising > speed, voila`, mega-MPG. Of course the ONLY rpm where torque, horsepower and VE could all peak at the same time is at 5252 rpm. Not exactly most people's idea of a best cruise speed! Now if your cam duration is short enough keep the engine speed down, reducing the overall frictional losses (which are exponential with regard to rpm) and then geared for this lower peak torque (at which VE also peaks and usually BSFC) than you could have great mileage. I know this is sort of what you were eluding to but just not getting there on the same track. :) John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 21:25:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA22939; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:18:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA22934; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:17:56 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16286 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:35:35 +1200 (NZST) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id IAA00374 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:35:09 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 9 Sep 96 08:36:23 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 9 Sep 96 08:36:11 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:36:07 +1200 Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Message-ID: <2D68DD502EE@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: "Mike Fahrion" > Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:20:04 +0000 > Subject: troubleshooting a taurus > Priority: normal > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Sorry if this is a bit off subject. > > A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which > hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI > problem. > > The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or > over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no > firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't > seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and > filter are good. > > Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure > when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - > forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? > > Any insight would be appreciated > > TIA > -mike > mfahrion@bb-elec.com > Sounds like a marginal inductive (crank angle) pickup. These things produce a signal level proportional to the speed. Sounds like cold cranking is not producing enough signal. The computer probably expects some havoc while starting, so doesn't bother to report any bizarrities (since it runs fine when running) *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@fp.co.nz << * *********************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 21:26:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA22949; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:22:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA22943; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:22:29 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20482>; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:23:50 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep9.092350nzst.20482@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:20:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: re: Re: hi compressions X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Steve says... >This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I guess >they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners being >bad, but what about a nice oval shape? >- --steve It should be possible to use two valve stems to stop it spinning. What about making an oval valve with two stems at the, and machining an existing four valve head to have two oval valves? You could use the existing valve guides. Has this been tried before? Could be tricky to make the valves, with two stems and all, but not impossible. Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 21:36:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA22980; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:31:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA22975; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:31:19 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id bj21001; 8 Sep 96 21:14 GMT Received: from anergy.demon.co.uk ([158.152.64.31]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa21636; 8 Sep 96 21:50 BST Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:41:12 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Jonathan Lloyd Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message , SRavet@bangate.compaq.com writes >"Mike Fahrion" Wrote: >| >| Sorry if this is a bit off subject. >| >| A coworker has paid an insane sum to a dealer to fix a problem which >| hasn't gone away - and I believe that it should be a simple EFI >| problem. What sort of EFI system? Any chance the idle or bypass system is not working thus not applying any throttle for starting cold. -- Jonathan Lloyd john@anergy.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 23:01:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA23098; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:50:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA23093; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:50:34 -0400 Received: from cupid.Dartmouth.EDU (cupid.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.8]) by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.7.5.1+DND/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA04671 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-id: <23012752@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 08 Sep 96 18:50:34 EDT From: Jeffrey.Giberstein@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey Giberstein) Subject: Re: Injector Flow Variation To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Both aftermarket suppliers and OEM's (where necessary) will flow injectors and match sets as best as possible. If, for instance, you were to order injectors from Kinsler, they'd do this for you. I learned this the hard way 'cause I had Ford send me some injectors for a Formula SAE EFI project and well into development, I decided to check flow and the injectors were grossly out of whack with eachother. JG From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 23:08:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA23110; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:58:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA23105; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:58:54 -0400 Received: from p2-17.net-link.net (p2-17 [205.217.6.151]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA03474 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:58:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199609082258.SAA03474@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:41:14 -0700 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: Re: Water Injection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:26 AM 9/6/96 -0600, you wrote: > >O.K., My daily driver (w/ 160k miles) is starting to knock unless I use >premium. I think I'll put in a water injection system, but have a few >questions. Can you dump in too much water? I plan on a winshield washer >pump, and to have it vaccum operated. I will monitor the map signal and >start pumping water when the engine gets below a certian vaccum. What >I could do with another op-amp and a 555 is have the water pump come in >at 50% duty cycle at one vaccum, and full on when it drops below another >vaccum. I don't think I'll get carried away with using a pic chip, >because I really don't know the relationship between engine load and >knock. > Would it be better to have the water controlled off throttle position? >Thanks for your time, >-Steven Ciciora > > Your 2-stage idea is good, but I would use 2 pumps.....1 at moderate vacuum and 1 at very low vacuum, each with its own regulating nozzle. The idea of modulating the motor speed (pump output) sounds good, but unless you have a closed loop motor speed control for the pump, you're in for a suprise. There are too many extraneous factors which will influence pump output (nozzle position, temperature, etc.) If you could call for a given motor speed with a certain voltage, it would be great, but you won't get 50 % motor speed by applying 50% voltage. And you won't get the response you want either. Also, I wouldn't key the water off throttle position....a given throttle position at heavy load can mean completely different operating characteristics that the same throttle position at light load and high speed. Good luck..... Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 8 23:44:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA23176; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:33:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA23171; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:33:30 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28954; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:31:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Water Injection for power? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into mechanical power. I, for one, would like to try this. How hard would it be to make an additional hole in the head for this purpose (I have little/no mechanical background), and would it have adverse effects on a HC engine (Honda F2)? Comments? Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 00:27:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA23243; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:17:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA23238; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:17:27 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id bk21001; 8 Sep 96 21:14 GMT Received: from anergy.demon.co.uk ([158.152.64.31]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa21639; 8 Sep 96 21:50 BST Message-ID: <9fAofDAs5TMyEwGC@anergy.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:20:44 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Jonathan Lloyd Subject: Re: Ancient History In-Reply-To: <9609061511.AB00164@mv8.orbeng.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message <9609061511.AB00164@mv8.orbeng.com.au>, RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.or beng.com.au writes > >>cylinder contains free oxygen and free hydrocarbon radicals and the >>whole lot reacts at once. Bad news , knock , damage etc. > >Not exactly true. Combustion pressure, temperature and radiation are >required to initiate knock, which is where areas in the combustion >chamber auto-ignite causing several flame fronts to develop >uncontrolled. > As this is an EFI group I'll refrain from chatting about combustion but for anyone who does it is important to be very clear about the terms used i.e. ignition, flame etc. At basics the whole thing is a chemical reaction and the issues are what reactions and what drives them. There are many different and driven by different things. -- Jonathan Lloyd john@anergy.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 00:50:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA23275; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:39:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.execpc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA23270; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:39:55 -0400 Received: from Pzurlo (aloria.execpc.com [169.207.9.221]) by mailgate.execpc.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA11752 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:40:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:40:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199609090040.TAA11752@mailgate.execpc.com> X-Sender: zurlo@mail.execpc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jim Zurlo Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 07:31 PM 9/8/96 -0400, you wrote: > >I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an >article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of >the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water >(diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would >flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into >mechanical power. > Southwest Research Institute did this I think sometime in the '60s or early '70s. They could inject enough water to eliminate the radiator, but if memory serves me there was a problem with mineral build up inside the combustion chamber. It's all documented in an SAE paper. Jim Zurlo zurlo@execpc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 01:31:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA23363; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:21:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from meteorology.ho.bom.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA23358; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:21:17 -0400 Received: from grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU by meteorology.ho.bom.gov.au (4.1/4.7) id AA21619; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:24:51 EST Received: from platypus (platypus.baps.BoM.GOV.AU) by grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25107; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:04:41 EST Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:04:40 EST Message-Id: <9609090104.AA25107@grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU> From: Stuart Baly To: diy_efi Subject: re: Manifold/throttle bodys-ED:-) X-Mailer: Pronto E-Mail [version 2.01] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Does anyone know what would happen if you joined all the chokes >together on the down-stream side of each throttle, kind of like >forming a mini-plenum for improving balance robustness at low throttle >openings, but still allowing the correct runner design and plenum >volume up-stream of the blades for WOT performance? Yamaha also had another version of this apart from YDIS - I can't remember it's name but its used on the Yamaha V-Max. The engine is a 1200 V-4 with four downdraught carbs in the V. At high revs two butterflies open to join the intakes in pairs across the V. The idea is that the cylinders in each pair are drawing in air at separate times, so each cylinder can use two carbs rather than one. I don't know if it made that much difference to power, but a 145hp from a 1.2L engine is alright. Stuart P.S. All this talk of knock reminds me... One Sunday night recently I went for a ride in a Daihatsu Charade with a friend of mine. She said "Hey, listen to this!" and accelerated out of a 25mph corner at full throttle in top gear, knocking like a dog (the car, not the driver) all the way to about 50mph. She was laughing all the way, and said "It sounds like a truck!". I asked her how long she'd been doing that, and she said "Oh, most of the week."! These Daihatsus are tough little cars. ========================================================= Stuart Baly (S.Baly@BoM.gov.au) '71 Datrat 1600, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R, '81 Yamaha RD350LC ========================================================= From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 03:10:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA23479; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:55:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA23474; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:55:09 -0400 Received: from pmeU16.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU16.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.17]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id TAA17742 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609090255.TAA17742@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:45 AM 9/8/96 -0500, John Faubion wrote: >Whoa! As soon as you changed fuel (methane) you changed the stoichiometric >ratio! So your comparison of 28:1 on methane means absolutely nothing when >related to gasoline. Its an apples to oranges. In addition you wouldn't >want to lean out an engine to reach maximum power. Max power will occur >with a slightly richer than stoich mixture. While best efficiency will >occur leaner than stoich. Granted, the change of fuel makes a big difference, but the point was that 28:1 AFR is Very Lean, even for methane. I did not say it was making anywhere near maximum power at this AFR, again, it was making just enough power for it's intended (constant) load. >Mainly by reducing frictional losses at the lower RPM. This would be more of a factor with a big block, since it has higher frictional losses due to increased bore, stroke, stc. >Of course the ONLY rpm where torque, horsepower and VE could all peak at >the same time is at 5252 rpm. Not exactly most people's idea of a best >cruise speed! Now if your cam duration is short enough keep the engine >speed down, reducing the overall frictional losses (which are exponential >with regard to rpm) and then geared for this lower peak torque (at which VE >also peaks and usually BSFC) than you could have great mileage. I know this >is sort of what you were eluding to but just not getting there on the same >track. :) I wasn't aware of the magic number of 5252 RPM, how did you arrive at it? I can't see this applying to ALL internal combustion engines across the board... As far as best cruise RPM, depends if it's a Honda 750cc four or a 512ci Caddy, doesn't it? You're right, I shouldn't have included HP in that list, but the point was, that if all you're interested in is enough horsepower to cruise, it doesn't matter how much horsepower you can make at some other RPM. Horsepower is proportional to RPM, so in theory, the higher the RPM, the higher the horsepower. Of course, this is ultimately limited by engine design, VE, and a whole host of other things. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 05:54:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA23706; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 05:45:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA23701; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:45:13 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id PAA11460 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:45:07 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA13716; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:21:33 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA13716; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:21:33 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AB00023; Mon, 9 Sep 96 13:23:48 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609091723.AB00023@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:23:42 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Ancient History (now fuel economy) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Granted, the change of fuel makes a big difference, but the point was >that 28:1 AFR is Very Lean, even for methane. The biggest influence on fuel consumption is in pumping work (ie manifold pressure, or lack thereof). If you choose to run a 400+cid engine, then to produce the sort of power necessary for cruising (10-20 hp), you will be running relatively low manifold pressures compared to a smaller engine producing the same power. Remember, the manifold depression is un-recovered, therfore represents a power loss. The slower you spin the engine, then the higher the manifold pressure is for the same airflow (power), hence your pumping work (losses) is less. Dropping the axle ratio (numerically) will give you benefits in fuel consumption at the same (road) speed simply because you have your foot on the throttle harder (strange but true! :) Running lean does effectively the same thing, by running the same fuelling level, but higher airflow, the manifold depression is reduced, saving power. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 06:07:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA23729; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 05:59:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from xwing.wcape.gov.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA23724; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:59:31 -0400 Received: from REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (redxch.wcape.gov.za [164.151.82.16]) by xwing.wcape.gov.za (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA00129 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:03:39 +0200 Received: from REDXCH/MAIL by REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 9 Sep 96 8:02:11 +0200 Received: from MAIL by REDXCH (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 9 Sep 96 8:02:01 +0200 From: "George Lerm" To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:01:55 GMT-2 Subject: Http address Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <740CB36F8A@REDXCH.WCAPE.GOV.ZA> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Could anybody tell me if something is amiss with the efi332 page. Unable to get access at all. efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/332_index.html Thanks George Lerm Clinical Engineering Red Cross Hospital Private Bag Rondebosch Cape Town South Africa 7700 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 08:49:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA24289; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA24284; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 04:42:16 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16050; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:42:14 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA6E0.3B32F120@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:41:07 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA6E0.3B32F120@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Fred Francis'" Subject: RE: Sequential VS Batch fire systems Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:17:47 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Well for a start, if you have ONE cylinder that wants to 'pink' you can = change the timing, and how much fuel you throw into one cylinder, and = keep all the others at 'normal'..... Just a thought Mark ---------- From: Fred Francis[SMTP:Fred_Francis@mail.dnr.state.ga.us] Sent: Friday, September 06, 1996 5:03 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Sequential VS Batch fire systems RABBITT Wrote:=20 .... All the applications that Robert J. Harris quoted in his original post = were high-speed, high power applications, and sequential fuelling is not = going to give you anything here. What sequential injection does give is better = low speed, part load combustion stability leading to better real-world = driveability. Would anyone like to comment on batch fire vs sequential injection = systems?=20 What are the real world advantages to each under specific circumstances? = GM went to sequential systems recently on the new camaros and corvettes, = WHY? Is anything really gained with a sequential system in terms of performance, efficiency or driveablility? ~~fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 08:49:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA24279; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA24268; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 04:42:05 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16039; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:42:03 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA6E0.1FBBB120@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:40:21 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA6E0.1FBBB120@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: diy_efi , "'Woodd, Michael'" Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:32:12 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Problem comes, trying to work out the shims, so that both stems are = working together, and not trying to compress two valve springs, by only = pressing on one stem. Mark ---------- From: Woodd, Michael[SMTP:wooddm@akcity.govt.nz] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 1996 10:20 PM To: diy_efi Subject: re: Re: hi compressions Steve says... >This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I = guess >they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners = being=20 >bad, but what about a nice oval shape? >- --steve It should be possible to use two valve stems to stop it spinning. What about making an oval valve with two stems at the, and machining an existing four valve head to have two oval valves? You could use the existing valve guides. Has this been tried before? Could be tricky to make the valves, with two stems and all, but not impossible. Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 08:50:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA24296; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA24291; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 04:42:19 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16054; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:42:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA6E0.3D8DAA00@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:41:11 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA6E0.3D8DAA00@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Greg Finnican'" Subject: RE: Injector Flow Variation Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:22:46 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is it worth testing them on the bench, flowing at 20%, 40% 60% and 80% = flows for a while, and actually seeing how much they flow, and putting = the adjustment into the code???? Comments please... as I've never really thought about this bit of = potentially disastrous mismatch. Mark ---------- From: Greg Finnican[SMTP:f0247@vnet.net] Sent: Saturday, September 07, 1996 6:22 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Injector Flow Variation What an injector's flow rating is and what it actually flows can vary=20 quite a bit. When we ultrasonicly clean them it does not always bring=20 them back in line. How much of this is manufacturing variation? After=20 seeing the variation in injectors I can'nt imagine using an untested set = in a performance application - certainly not a used set. I would like = to=20 hear others experience. greg@atlantic-motorsports.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 09:41:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA24464; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:35:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA24455; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 05:35:28 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:35:09 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 9 Sep 96 12:35:09 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 9 Sep 96 12:34:50 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:34:44 MET Subject: Re: Fuel on the intake valves Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <1522075F7@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > FWIW, Nissan has been doing it since 1984 on their V6 engines. I'm not sure > about some of the other makers though. Actually, most of the fuel > atomization takes place through evaporation of the fuel on the hot intake > valve (at lower engine speeds). Various people have tried open valve > described as "Making Oil" due to the large amounts of un evaporated fuel that > gets washed down the bore at lower rpms. Supposedly the only way to make it > work is to aim the injector to hit the really hot exhaust valve. Obviously > this requires a specific head and manifold setup to accomplish. In WW2 there were direct injected aircraft engines (only experiments?) The injector was placed high in cylinder sidewall and sprayed on the closed exthaust valve. Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 13:50:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA24892; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:42:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA24887; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:42:02 -0400 Received: from slip-90-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28338; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:00 -0500 Message-Id: <9609091342.AA28338@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Http address Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hi > >Could anybody tell me if something is amiss with the efi332 >page. Unable to get access at all. > > > efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/332_index.html > >Thanks > >George Lerm I had to keep trying tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 13:50:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA24900; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:44:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA24895; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:44:05 -0400 Received: from slip-90-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49398; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:44:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:44:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9609091344.AA49398@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE: Injector Flow Variation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Is it worth testing them on the bench, flowing at 20%, 40% 60% and 80% flows for a while, and actually seeing how much they flow, and putting the adjustment into the code???? > > >Comments please... as I've never really thought about this bit of potentially disastrous mismatch. > I thought that's what SFI did for you ?? tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 15:47:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA25345; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:36:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA25339; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:35:46 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:37:01 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Re: hi compressions Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:35:58 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369864275-7946224@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- From: Mark Pitts To: diy_efi ; 'Woodd, Michael' Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions Date: Friday, September 20, 1996 2:32 AM Problem comes, trying to work out the shims, so that both stems are working together, and not trying to compress two valve springs, by only pressing on one stem. Mark Of course, you could take ancient history 101 and re-invent the rotary valve engine and eliminate valves in their entirety. Basically picture a dual overhead cam with intake on one cam - exhaust on the other. Shove it down so that part of the cam is in the combustion chamber. Make the cam relatively large in diameter and hollow. Put a hole in it such that at a certain time, the hole opens to the chamber. Make the cams hollow and flow the gasses through it to the machined ports. No valves, just big timed holes, no springs so no float and very little friction. This was down during the thirties by the way. With modern ceramics and molycoatings, this concept slight might have a chance again - a lot better than a two stems valve or oval valve. Side note - when and why was fuel injection invented??? Answer - 1920's so that high performance fighter aircraft could maintain sustained inverted flight (upside down) without fuel starvation. Perfected for narrow power and rpm range aircraft engines by end of WW II. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 16:18:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA25495; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:09:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA25488; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:09:32 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:12:03 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Re: hi compressions Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:11:02 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369862173-8072391@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- From: Mark Pitts To: diy_efi ; 'Woodd, Michael' Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions Date: Friday, September 20, 1996 2:32 AM Problem comes, trying to work out the shims, so that both stems are working Of Course you could get really crazy. Remember the flathead ford V-8's, They had a really convoluted exhaust flow problem. Valve in block, port bending around the cylinder - all the way across the block and exiting thru a siamesed port on the center cylinders. An air flow nightmare. So some racers in the thirties and forties "two-cycled" it and made lots more power. Involved cutting an exhaust port looking just like a two cycle engines around bottom dead center and running a separate exhaust pipe. Opened around twenty five degrees before and after bottom dead certer. At the end of the compression stroke - port opened and a significant chunk of exhaust left the engine. Exhaust stroke pumped some of the rest thru the stock exhaust Yes, at the bottom of the intake - some charge went into the exhaust or some exhaust came back into the engine, but the vast improvement in exhaust flow far made up the loss in intake efficiency. ---- Sniveling Tirade Follows - Cut Here ---------- No - was not invented at a university, nor were eurocentric book writers really interested in writing about colonial backyard mechanic's improvements in crude production engines so you had to see it to remember it. No, it was not tested on street engines, no it was not proctology examined to infinite detail, yes it was less than optium, no - nobody ever wrote much about it. but it f____ng WORKED. All I am trying to say is that there is a gold mine of ancient history to be examined for "new" ideas and what is considered "NEW" was probably invented in the thirties and nearly perfected by the various air forces. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 17:44:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA25643; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:37:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA25638; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:36:55 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 9 Sep 96 12:25:52 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:24:02 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:22:22 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 10:08:24 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: hi compressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi "Woodd, Michael" Wrote: | | | Steve says... | | >This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I guess | >they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners being | | >bad, but what about a nice oval shape? | | >- --steve | | It should be possible to use two valve stems to stop it spinning. What | about making an oval valve with two stems at the, and machining an | existing four valve head to have two oval valves? You could use the | existing valve guides. Has this been tried before? Could be tricky to | make the valves, with two stems and all, but not impossible. You could spline a single shaft to keep it from spinning also. But, valves rotate now by design, right? Why, and what would happen to an oddly shaped valve that couldn't rotate? --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 18:52:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA25922; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:36:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA25917; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:36:01 -0400 Received: from slip-90-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37778; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:35:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:35:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9609091835.AA37778@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Ford EEC-IV Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Check out the I'LL SHO-U-PERFORMANCE Web site at www.cwci.com/isup/ Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 19:13:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA25938; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:39:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA25933; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:39:42 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13779 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:42:04 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA24689; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:39:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re: hi compressions In-Reply-To: <1369862173-8072391@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > All I am trying to say is that there is a gold mine of > ancient > history to be examined for "new" ideas and what is considered "NEW" was > probably invented in the thirties and nearly perfected by the various air > forces. > > Yeah, I discover that all the time here at the patent office. You wouldn't believe the ideas people have come upo with over the years. Stuff you thought was new turns out to be ancient history. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 20:49:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA26179; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:12:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gwa.ericsson.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA26174; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:11:50 -0400 Received: from mr1.exu.ericsson.se (mr1.exu.ericsson.com [138.85.147.11]) by gwa.ericsson.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA17430 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.10.50]) by mr1.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.1/NAHUB-MR1.1) with ESMTP id PAA26451 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (eusmsrt@b01e25 [138.85.20.125]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25686 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:11:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Markus Strobl Received: (eusmsrt@localhost) by b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00423 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:11:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:11:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199609092011.PAA00423@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I mean, > I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, > and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them; [snip] > I have driven in far too many 30mpg > 5.0L mustangs (only to get 18-20) and 27mpg 5.7L '95 Z/28s (only to get 22.5) > Maybe those cars get that kind of mileage at 60mph going down a hill with a > tailwind, a real skinny driver and at a high altitude (higher altitudes get > better gas mileage, especially with efi). > When I say highway, I mean just that: jump on the freeway and drive. That also > means slowing down a little, speeding up, passing the old people, showing a > Porshe > a thing or two :) [snip] > Arnaldo Echevarria You better believe it: when driving from Dallas to memphis, speed range 70 mph to 95 mph, I got 27.5 mpg. Most of the tankful was driving at 80mph. A friend in a '95 Trans Am that made the trip with me had a best of 28.5 (his engine was more broken in, mine was fresh at 2k miles). ------- Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 22:26:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA26426; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:06:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hub.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA26421; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:06:52 -0400 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by hub.ubc.ca (8.6.12/1.14) with ESMTP id PAA17365 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:06:50 -0700 Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07257; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:06:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:06:22 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: re: Re: hi compressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 SRavet@bangate.compaq.com wrote: > > You could spline a single shaft to keep it from spinning also. But, valves > rotate now by design, right? Why, and what would happen to an oddly shaped > valve that couldn't rotate? > > --steve > Well there are a few engines out there that have valves that DON'T rotate. These are the old Boss engines from Ford (302,351 and the 429). These valves are held in place by keepers that pinch the valve stem (ie the keepers don't butt against eachother). The result are valves and valve seats that don't last as long but the pay off is less risk of dropping a valve at high RPM. My Boss 351 is set up like this, I just had the heads redone and the exhaust valves had to be replaced because of this. (or so my machinist told me...he seems very trustworthy) Just my two cents...(and my first post to this list!) cheers everyone... james From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 22:50:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA26486; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:44:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA26481; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:43:58 -0400 Received: from Default (port17.tserver2.ao.net [205.244.242.77]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA05749 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:44:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:44:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199609092244.SAA05749@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: re: Ancient History (now fuel economy) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The biggest influence on fuel consumption is in pumping work (ie >manifold pressure, or lack thereof). OK > >If you choose to run a 400+cid engine, then to produce the sort of >power necessary for cruising (10-20 hp), you will be running >relatively low manifold pressures compared to a smaller engine >producing the same power. Remember, the manifold depression is >un-recovered, therfore represents a power loss. At the same RPM? Could you clarify this? An engine requires a minimum a/f ratio to overcome frictional losses, keep inertia (accel=0), and move the drivetrain (i'm speaking about a fixed RPM, fixed speed). The manifold pressure is just a function of the throttle position and the rpm, not of the load, at least I don't think. Now if you place a heavy load on an engine at low RPMs, then you have to give it more air and/or gas; well, here's where I confuse myself. Is the load a cause or an effect? > >The slower you spin the engine, then the higher the manifold pressure >is for the same airflow (power), hence your pumping work (losses) is >less. Dropping the axle ratio (numerically) will give you benefits in >fuel consumption at the same (road) speed simply because you have your >foot on the throttle harder (strange but true! :) Wait. You said that the higher the manifold depresion, the higher the power loss. Now you say that the higher manifold pressure you get less pumping work (ie better fuel economy)?? Now I'm really confused. Which is it? OK then you say that dropping your axle ratio gives you better gas mileage, which I agree (when I went from a 2.79:1 final drive ratio to a 2.05:1 ratio on a 305 I went from 16 to 21.5MPG). But then you say it is because you have your foot on the throttle harder? No way. On that same car I remember barely touching the gas when cruising at 75mph (about 2000rpm or so) when before I would have to get on it at least 3/8 pedal. How low you can go on RPMs is really a function of engine size and bore/stroke ratio. I had a friend with a 5.0L mustang try the same thing with very little success (he lowered the gear ratio so much it would need a higher throttle setting to keep the same mpg.) To me, as a rule of thumb, gas mileage is proportional to throttle position (relative to car, of course). The more you can stay off the pedal, the better (and of course this goes for carburators only) Arnaldo MPG) >>Running lean does effectively the same thing, by running the same >fuelling level, but higher airflow, the manifold depression is >reduced, saving power. > > > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 9 22:50:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA26497; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:47:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA26492; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:46:59 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA02060 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:46:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199609092246.AA02060@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:46:57 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:46:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 18:46:49 -0400 From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Organization: V engine, Components B Department X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Where the heck have I been? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 420 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In case anyone is wondering, I am in class for two weeks, followed by a week's business trip to Europe to take on another pair of intake manifolds. Apparently, I am not busy enough... I have 266 unread messages in my box now. By the time I get back, who knows how far behind I will be. Sigh. Wish I could read more of your stuff, much less respond to it. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@ed8719.pto.ford.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 00:04:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA26591; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:56:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA26586; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:56:26 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p2s17.beaches.net [206.240.81.147]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA09371 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:28:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609092328.SAA09371@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Ancient History Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:17:03 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >Mainly by reducing frictional losses at the lower RPM. > > This would be more of a factor with a big block, since it has higher > frictional losses due to increased bore, stroke, stc. Well with any engine for that matter. The bigger the bore, longer the stroke, the number of rings, the number of cylinders, ad nausem, the greater the frictional losses. But no matter what engine it is the greater the RPM the greater the frictional losses. > I wasn't aware of the magic number of 5252 RPM, how did you arrive at it? > I can't see this applying to ALL internal combustion engines across the board... Well actually I didn't. :) Mr. Watt did around the 17th century. Draft horses were used to pump water out of mines. The horses pulled a 12 foot lever to turn a capstan which in turned operated a pump. He figured the horses could apply 180 pounds of force to the lever. The circumference of the circle was 75.4 feet (2xPIx12). The horses could make 144 trips around the circle in an hour or 2.4 per minute. So the horse traveled at 180.96 feet per minute (2.4x75.4). Watt then multiplied this to arrive at 32,580 ft-lb./min (181x180) which he rounded up to 33,000 ft-lb./min or 550 ft-lb./sec (33000/60). This became the standard definition of horsepower. Now to get back on track for your question. Horsepower is a force in pounds applied over a distance in feet in a time of 1 minute. To convert the engines rotational force into horsepower, we need to know how far the free end of a 1 foot lever travels in 1 minute. That is the circumference of circle with a radius of 1 foot times the RPM of the engine. The circumference would be 2 times PI times 1 foot or 6.183 feet. So our formula would be 6.183 times RPM times torque (in ft-lb.). This could then be divided by 33,000 to arrive at horsepower. We end up with a formula that looks like this: 6.183xRPMxTorque ---------------------------- = Horsepower 33,000 If we then divide the left side by 2 time PI we eliminate the 6.183 on top and reduce the 33,000 to 5252.11 which we round down to end up with: RPMxTorque ------------------- = Horsepower 5252 This is how you can calculate horsepower from torque if you know what RPM it was taken at. > As far as best cruise RPM, depends if it's a Honda 750cc four or a 512ci > Caddy, doesn't it? You're right, I shouldn't have included HP in that list, To a point yes. Overall it will depend on a multitude of factors, such as cam timing, chamber design, flow characteristics of intake and exhaust systems, and etc... Everything has to be taken in the overall system. This is the biggest problem of most hot rodders. They will add headers, an intake and a wild cam, and when the car runs slower that it did stock they complain about all of the parts they bought. If they considered the entire car as a system and matched the components to run in a compatible range and then changed the gear ratios to use that particular range, they would be much happier and the car would be much faster. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 01:35:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA26840; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:29:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA26834; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:29:37 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA07649; Tue, 10 Sep 96 08:28:39 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA842373727 Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:42:07 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:42:07 Message-Id: <9608108423.AA842373727@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[3]: hi compressions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi My understanding has always been that the valve spins to promote even seat wear and to avoid the valve sticking due to constant hammering on the same spots. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: re: Re: hi compressions Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/10/96 8:15 AM On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 SRavet@bangate.compaq.com wrote: > > You could spline a single shaft to keep it from spinning also. But, valves > rotate now by design, right? Why, and what would happen to an oddly shaped > valve that couldn't rotate? > > --steve > Well there are a few engines out there that have valves that DON'T rotate. These are the old Boss engines from Ford (302,351 and the 429). These valves are held in place by keepers that pinch the valve stem (ie the keepers don't butt against eachother). The result are valves and valve seats that don't last as long but the pay off is less risk of dropping a valve at high RPM. My Boss 351 is set up like this, I just had the heads redone and the exhaust valves had to be replaced because of this. (or so my machinist told me...he seems very trustworthy) Just my two cents...(and my first post to this list!) cheers everyone... james From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 01:38:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA26851; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:34:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA26846; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:34:49 -0400 Received: from peo10.mtco.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/07Aug96-0204PM) id AA10989; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:33:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:33:56 -0500 Message-Id: <9609100133.AA10989@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? >> >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) >> > >> Yes: >> >> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the >> injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam >> shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric >> solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector >> 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the >> fuel tank. > >Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. > >Craig. > > Yes, the pressure is that high. Some times it can get as high as 35000. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 01:38:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA26858; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:34:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA26853; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:34:53 -0400 Received: from peo10.mtco.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/07Aug96-0204PM) id AA09723; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:34:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:34:00 -0500 Message-Id: <9609100134.AA09723@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re Propane injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Guess you don't want a pipe to burst while you are leaning over it, or > you may just loose a few body parts. > > Actually the high pressure area is at the tip of the injector which is located far in the center of the cylinder head. Then again the injector is only about 1.5 inches in diameter and 8 inches long. The high pressure is necessary to cause an adequate atomization and still be pressed into the cylinder when the flame front is active. Remember the diesel fuel in burnt as it is injected. Thus you have to overcome combustion pressures. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 01:38:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA26865; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:35:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA26860; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:35:04 -0400 Received: from peo10.mtco.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/07Aug96-0204PM) id AA11027; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:34:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:34:11 -0500 Message-Id: <9609100134.AA11027@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: troubleshooting a taurus Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >mike wrote: > >>... >>The taurus has a very hard time starting after sitting overnite or >>over perhaps 8-10 hours. Takes a large amount of cranking with no >>firing, then stumbles slowly to life. Ambient temperature doesn't >>seem to have any effect. Computer reveals no fault codes, pump and >>filter are good. >> >>Isn't there a fuel accumulator which should maintain fuel pressure >>when sitting? If this was faulty would it allow pressure to drop - >>forcing the pump to charge the system again before it could start? > >No accumulator, it needs to be a leak-free system, for obvious reasons. >It does sound like fuel pressure has gone away. Assuming this is a V6, >(you don't say, and you don't even say what year) there is a Shrader >valve near the front where you can measure fuel pressure. It should be >35 psi at idle, and about 25-30 after sitting. > >Turning on the ign should cause fuel pump to run a couple of seconds, >then stop. Try switching on and off once or twice before starting to >see if that helps. > >EFI in my '86 Sable V6 has been almost flawless in 115K miles. Had to >correct a weak idle recently by de-coking the air bypass. > >RD > If you have a fuel problem, then it would not run or start hot. The fuel will pressurize in a few seconds from zero pressure and the engine will not always hold pressure for a long time. It does not have to. My car looses all pressure in a matter of minutes. The problem sound like a cold starting problem, ie cold engine ie not hot. A cold (ambient) engine requires extra fuel to start until the cylinder surfaces get hot. Takes about 3 minutes on an average day. A little longer in the winter. The computer detects this by measuring the engine temp with sensor and giving the engine extra fuel. Try changing the engine coolant temp sensor. It sounds like it has failed to a level that does not trip the diagnostics, but gives the computer a false signal making it think the engine is hot and thus gives it no starting enrichent. This is why it still starts when it is warm. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 02:12:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA26928; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:04:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA26923; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:04:36 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id aa02391; 9 Sep 96 23:02 GMT Received: from clintsmc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.122.156]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa05490; 10 Sep 96 0:02 BST Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:31:28 GMT From: Clint Sharp Message-Id: <789@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: hi compressions X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS Lines: 15 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In your message dated Monday 9, September 1996 you wrote : > Of course, you could take ancient history 101 and re-invent the rotary > valve engine and eliminate valves in their entirety. > This was down during the thirties by the way. With modern ceramics and > molycoatings, this concept slight might have a chance again - a lot better > than a two stems valve or oval valve. I read an article in a UK (?) magazine not too long ago about a company that has achieved this, I think they claim to have invented the concept so I was surprised to read this message. -- If you have a problem with excess cash, mail all those unwanted notes in plain packing to; clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 03:11:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA26995; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:47:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA26989; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:47:05 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA02847 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:46:40 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA16513; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:11:54 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA16513; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:11:54 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AB00149; Tue, 10 Sep 96 10:12:42 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609101412.AB00149@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:26 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Fuel Economy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi X-Ceo_Options: Document begin 660 ceomail.msd M/CY)9B!Y;W4@8VAO;W-E('1O(')U;B!A(#0P,"MC:60@96YG:6YE+"!T:&5N M('1O('!R;V1U8V4@=&AE('-O2!F M;W(@8W)U:7-I;F<@*#$P+3(P(&AP*2P@>6]U('=I;&P@8F4@2!L;W<@;6%N:69O;&0@<')E6]U(&-L87)I M9GD@=&AI2!M86YY('!E;W!L92!I;B!T:&4@=V]R;&0@=7-E($U!4"!S M96YS;W)S+@T*#0H^/E1H92!S;&]W97(@>6]U('-P:6X@=&AE(&5N9VEN92P@ M=&AE;B!T:&4@:&EG:&5R('1H92!M86YI9F]L9"!P6]U2!B96-A=7-E('EO=2!H879E('EO=7(@#0H^/F9O;W0@ M;VX@=&AE('1H6]U('-A>2!T:&%T('1H92!H:6=H97(@;6%N:69O;&0@<')E6]U(&=E="!L97-S('!U;7!I;F<-"CYW;W)K("AI92!B971T97(@9G5E M;"!E8V]N;VUY*3\_($YO=R!))VT@2!T:&4@:6YV97)S92!O9B!E86-H M(`T*;W1H97(N#0H-"CX-"CY/2R!T:&5N('EO=2!S87D@=&AA="!D6]U(&)E='1E6]U M('-A>2!I="!I2!N M;VXM;&EN96%R(&1E=FEC97,L(&%N9"!T:&4@8VAA6]U(&1I9"!H879E('EO=7(-"F9O;W0@;&5S6]U Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA27002; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:56:54 -0400 Received: from pmeU03.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU03.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.4]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id TAA01510 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609100256.TAA01510@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 06:17 PM 9/9/96 -0500, John Faubion wrote: >> I wasn't aware of the magic number of 5252 RPM, how did you arrive at it? >Well actually I didn't. :) At least you're honest... Obviously, I should have consulted my elementary Physics text. This brings us to the formula: > RPMxTorque >------------ = Horsepower > 5252 And, from a previous post: >Of course the ONLY rpm where torque, horsepower and VE could all peak at >the same time is at 5252 rpm. I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. If you substitute 5252 for RPM in the above equation, all you get is the fact that HP must = Torque at this particular RPM. This does not mean that they are all maximums at this RPM, only that they must be equal. This should mean that regardless of the engine, the horsepower and torque curves should cross each other at 5250 RPM. I dug out some old HP Books editions like "How to Hotrod Smallblock Chevys" and perused some of the comparative "before + after" Dyno curves. A few of them had torque and HP curves equal at 5250 RPM, but most didn't. Obviously, there are other factors at work here. >If they considered the entire >car as a system and matched the components to run in a compatible range and >then changed the gear ratios to use that particular range, they would be >much happier and the car would be much faster. I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortuneately, most speed shops are only interested in getting your money, not your money's worth. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 07:19:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA27457; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:13:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA27452; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:13:17 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:13:12 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 10 Sep 96 9:13:11 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 10 Sep 96 9:13:07 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:13:04 MET Subject: Oval Shaped Valves Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <16F61C55D9@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all, I own some books of "Apfelbeck", his philosophy was the "radial diametral" 4 valve head. His construction goes back to the '30th when he built up his first head for 500ccm singles. The last engines I know were prototypes for KTM and Rotax around '92. Between he made F2 4cyl. 2lit., BMW sidecar racing- and other engines. He also experimented with more than 4 valves, but his flowbench results for his radial-diametral head were much better than for any other concept. If anybody of you wants to construct a new head, :-) I can give you the book-titles or ISBN, or some GIF's of his latest KTM-head. They rebuilt an LC4 engine with it, it makes more than 90HP out of 500 ccm... There are also lots of easy theoretical and practical tips for every motor-screwer included. Sorry- only in german language, I think. Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 08:08:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA27521; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:03:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA27516; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 04:03:30 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17894; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:03:25 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9EFF.27E3A4E0@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:02:20 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9EFF.27E3A4E0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'Arnaldo Echevarria'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Ancient History (now fuel economy) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:59:09 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi As to the pressure in the manifold.... On the suck stroke... if you have HIGH DEPRESSION, the vacuum in the = manifold tries to suck the descending piston up, or just plain doesn't = help (grab a syringe, and see how hard it is to fill with water by = pulling). But, if turbo, or supercharge, or just plain acoustics is used to get = positive pressure in the manifold.. i.e. NEGATIVE depression, or comonly = called pressure, this will (theoretically) help push the piston down the = bore (now jam the syringe in the end of hose pipe, and the other end to = the tap (faucet?) you filled the bowl you were sucking from, and turn = on the pressure (turbo), now dry yourself off, and go and find the = plunger, cos that is probably the only accurate syringe you have for = measuring head capacities). Mark ;-) ---------- From: Arnaldo Echevarria[SMTP:aec@ao.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 12:44 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Ancient History (now fuel economy) snip: >The slower you spin the engine, then the higher the manifold pressure=20 >is for the same airflow (power), hence your pumping work (losses) is=20 >less. Dropping the axle ratio (numerically) will give you benefits in=20 >fuel consumption at the same (road) speed simply because you have your=20 >foot on the throttle harder (strange but true! :) Wait. You said that the higher the manifold depresion, the higher the=20 power loss. Now you say that the higher manifold pressure you get less = pumping work (ie better fuel economy)?? Now I'm really confused. Which is it? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 08:08:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA27514; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:03:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA27509; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 04:03:24 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17890; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:03:21 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9EFF.25982E40@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:02:16 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9EFF.25982E40@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'SRavet@bangate.compaq.com'" Subject: RE: Re: hi compressions Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:32:54 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Valves kinda 'continually' grind themselves in... you would end up with = an ill seated valve, that could wobble slightly in its hole, and = eventually break its stem....=20 Mark ---------- From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com[SMTP:SRavet@bangate.compaq.com] Sent: Monday, September 09, 1996 5:08 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Re: hi compressions "Woodd, Michael" Wrote: |=20 |=20 | Steve says... |=20 | >This might be a dumb question, but why not non-circular valves? I = guess | >they wouldn't be able to spin. Is that a problem? I can see corners = being=20 |=20 | >bad, but what about a nice oval shape? |=20 | >- --steve |=20 | It should be possible to use two valve stems to stop it spinning. = What | about making an oval valve with two stems at the, and machining an | existing four valve head to have two oval valves? You could use the | existing valve guides. Has this been tried before? Could be tricky = to | make the valves, with two stems and all, but not impossible. You could spline a single shaft to keep it from spinning also. But, = valves=20 rotate now by design, right? Why, and what would happen to an oddly = shaped=20 valve that couldn't rotate? --steve Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 08:22:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA27590; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:16:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA27585; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 04:16:08 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17913 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:16:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F00.D1B5F580@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:15 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F00.D1B5F580@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: Playing... Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:07 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome = wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? Cos what I've seen of them thats about it. Plus a burn off circuit, and a bridge for doing the current measurement. Like, I think the Idea is: Keep the current constant, measure the = voltage across to get that current, have another bit of wire as a = reference, and an absolute air temp/ atmospheric pressure reading, and = away you go? Yes... no ... who cares I got mine from the breakers....? Any comments really? (I'll even take 'Dont be stupid' for this one!) Mark ;-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 08:26:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA27647; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:23:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA27642; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 04:23:16 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:09 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 10 Sep 96 09:23:22 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 10 Sep 96 09:23:12 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:09 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Ancient History X-Confirm-Reading-To: "M HILL" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >Of course the ONLY rpm where torque, horsepower and VE could all peak at > >the same time is at 5252 rpm. > > I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. If you substitute 5252 for > RPM in the above equation, all you get is the fact that HP must = Torque at > this particular RPM. This does not mean that they are all maximums at this > RPM, only that they must be equal. This should mean that regardless of the > engine, the horsepower and torque curves should cross each other at 5250 > RPM. I dug out some old HP Books editions like "How to Hotrod Smallblock > Chevys" and perused some of the comparative "before + after" Dyno curves. A > few of them had torque and HP curves equal at 5250 RPM, but most didn't. > Obviously, there are other factors at work here. > I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque only at 5252 (which is agreed). Then this is the only place where they CAN both be a maximum. Not that they are a maximum. But that this is the only point where they can both be a maximum at the same time. Martin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 09:52:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA28545; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:42:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA28536; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:42:15 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:44:49 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:43:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369799007-11870179@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Thor Johnson > To: DIY EFI Maillist > Subject: Water Injection for power? > Date: Sunday, September 08, 1996 4:31 PM > > > I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an > article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of > the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water > (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would > flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into > mechanical power. > Why bother? The British in their pre-war experiments with water injection directly injected the water in a fine mist into the inlet of the mechanical supercharger of the Rolls Royce engine powering the spitfire. At any reasonable injection rate engine thermal loss's went down as the per cent rate of water to fuel went up. If memory serves me correctly at about 30 percent the engines water cooling was no longer a factor. Methyl Alcohol was added in a small percentage as an antifreeze - tis no such thing as a warm day at 30,000+ feet altitude. I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. WTF does it work? 70% plus of chemical energy released by combustion leaves the engine as excess heat. Absorb any of that EXCESS heat and turn water to steam and you gain either power or fuel economy or both. PS Ever wonder what is really going on during combustion. Check the pressure temp curves of the three major gasses present after combustion. CO2, N2 and H2O. Check out how much partial pressure each contributes to the mix. Then remember, that as a rough approximate, one gallon of gasoline makes 2 gallons of water in the exhaust. PS During the 70's phony gas crisis's a dozen different people came out with aftermarket water injectors. About eighty bucks for a windshield washer pump, bottle and some very crude controls worth maybe 10 bucks. All of them varied the pump with the RPM and used various gimmicks such as "air temp" sensing to separate you from your dollars. You can do much better just by sensing airflow, computed fuel flow and metering H2O to the FUEL flow and simply varied the percentage until you are happy. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 09:52:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA28546; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:42:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA28534; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:42:12 -0400 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:41:57 +0200 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA22107; Tue, 10 Sep 96 11:41:54 +0200 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:41:55 +0200 To: diy_efi From: walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Subject: Re: Oval Shaped Valves Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hoi Hans, kannst Du mir die ISBN-Nummer und den Titel vom Apfelbeckbuch geben? Gruss und Dank Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 10:23:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA28647; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA28642; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:14:19 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9AVQWDZKG00009K@UALR.EDU>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:12:11 CDT Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 05:59:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Water Injection for power? To: diy_efi Message-id: <297457.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead -> of the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting -> water (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The -> H2O would flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally -> exhasted) into mechanical power. Direct-to-cylinder cooling has been used on some large Diesels. Worked okay, as far as I know. "Six stroke" engines have also been built, with water injected after the exhaust stroke. The water flashes to steam, provides a little extra kick, and cools the cylinder. Either scheme requires a large supply of water, approximately as much by volume as the fuel supply, making such things awkward for motor vehicles, though it's no big deal in stationary installations. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 10:23:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA28640; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA28635; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:14:07 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:16:41 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: water injection; and methanol Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:15:33 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369797095-11985164@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: RD Rick > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: water injection; and methanol > Date: Saturday, September 07, 1996 7:52 AM > > >... > >He also suggested that mixing up to 50% methanol with the water helped > >improved its volatility. > >Jim Steck > > Word of warning. I have read that methanol is very corrosive to metal > parts, while ethanol is not. I don't know if ethanol will work in that > application. > Pre - EPA, every good gadget-addict has an oil-mist vaporizor to provide upper engine and valve lubrication. This manifold vacuum operated glass tank sucked up a small "highly vaporized" mist thru a fish tank bubbler in the intake. You purchased the special lubricating oil for only $5 a pint, and blended it with "pure" water or if it was cold, a thin blend of windshield wiper fluid and water. And then there was water pump lubricant, only a buck fifty a bottle and guaranteed to blend with all coolants and lubricate your pump bearings. In both cases, the operating agent was plain old cutting oil - yep the white slushy stuff you see in every machine shop. Couple of tables spoons white stuff, some food coloring or if its the good stuff - just enuff antifreeze to give the pint of water this concoction was in a green coloring, a fancy yellow bottle and 10,000 % profit can be yours. Seriously, industrial strength meth has 15% petroleum to counter the corrosion problem. Since cutting oil is a water soluble lubricant and protectant, if you blended a couple tablespoons into your water/meth mix, you would greatly reduce the corrosion and you would get the benefits of a "highly vaporized upper cylinder lubricator" also When you read alcohol in automotive applications, replace it with methanol and you will be both historically and currently correct. The only time ethanol is considered is if you have no access to meth or you are co-operating with congress in supporting the farm lobby. Meth has higher octane, produces more power in REAL engines, is significantly cheaper and is much less polluting. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:08:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA28772; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:54:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA28767; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:54:02 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15238 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:56:27 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA22771; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:53:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Playing... In-Reply-To: <01BB9F00.D1B5F580@speed.demon.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? > > Cos what I've seen of them thats about it. You sure could, but you;d have to calibrate it to your engine and your FI. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:13:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28794; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:05:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28789; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:05:43 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18280; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:05:40 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F20.EA2B59A0@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:03:59 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F20.EA2B59A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Hans Hintermaier'" Subject: RE: Oval Shaped Valves Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:19:53 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Be interesting to see a few pictures... Mark ---------- From: Hans Hintermaier[SMTP:HIHA@GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 11:13 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Oval Shaped Valves Hi all, I own some books of "Apfelbeck", his philosophy was the "radial diametral" 4 valve head. His construction goes back to the '30th when he built up his first head for 500ccm singles. The last engines I know were prototypes for KTM and Rotax around '92. Between he made F2 4cyl. 2lit., BMW sidecar racing- and other engines. He also experimented with more than 4 valves, but his flowbench results for his radial-diametral head were much better than for any other concept. If anybody of you wants to construct a new head, :-) I can give you the book-titles or ISBN, or some GIF's of his latest KTM-head. They rebuilt an LC4 engine with it, it makes more than 90HP out of 500 ccm... There are also lots of easy theoretical and practical tips for every motor-screwer included. Sorry- only in german language, I think. Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:32:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28849; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:23:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28844; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:23:12 -0400 Received: from slip-91-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44768; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:23:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:23:10 -0500 Message-Id: <9609101223.AA44768@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I mean, >> I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, >> and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them; > >[snip] > >You better believe it: when driving from Dallas to memphis, speed range 70 mph >to 95 mph, I got 27.5 mpg. Most of the tankful was driving at 80mph. A friend >in a '95 Trans Am that made the trip with me had a best of 28.5 (his engine was >more broken in, mine was fresh at 2k miles). > When I asked this question, I was not impugning anyone's honor -- hope it wasn't taken that way. I just want the formula! (The best story I have is averaging ~80 MPH from CT to TX and averaging 24 mpg in '88 towncar ==> 302 with 3800 pounds. But that was not normal.) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:36:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28868; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:28:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28858; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:28:46 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18327; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:28:41 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F24.1B689B60@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:26:51 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F24.1B689B60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'Dave Williams'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Water Injection for power? Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:10:46 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey guys... did ya know that hover time of the Harrier Jump Jet (AV8b ?) = is limited by water, as needs to inject water to get the density up = enough to produce enough thrust to hover (remember that this engine has = no afterburners or anything. Just kinda interesting... wonder what their fuel injection system does = in the flame tubes? They must need to richen/lean out the flame (when = spinning up and down on shaft RPM)=20 Completely off track, and thinking out loud. Sorry! ;-) Mark ---------- From: Dave Williams[SMTP:dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us] Sent: Monday, September 09, 1996 7:59 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Water Injection for power? -> article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead -> of the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting -> water (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The -> H2O would flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally -> exhasted) into mechanical power. Direct-to-cylinder cooling has been used on some large Diesels. Worked okay, as far as I know. "Six stroke" engines have also been built, with water injected after the exhaust stroke. The water flashes to steam, provides a little extra kick, and cools the cylinder. Either scheme requires a large supply of water, approximately as much by volume as the fuel supply, making such things awkward for motor vehicles, though it's no big deal in stationary installations. =20 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:36:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28867; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:28:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28856; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:28:45 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18331; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:28:45 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F24.3787B420@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:27:38 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F24.3787B420@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Walter Kaufmann'" Subject: RE: Oval Shaped Valves Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:15:56 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You what???????? Mark ;-) ---------- From: Walter Kaufmann[SMTP:walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 11:42 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Oval Shaped Valves Hoi Hans, kannst Du mir die ISBN-Nummer und den Titel vom Apfelbeckbuch geben? Gruss und Dank Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:44:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28888; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:35:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28883; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:35:07 -0400 Received: from slip-91-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32283; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:35:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:35:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9609101235.AA32283@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>> >>> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, >> >>Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >>really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. >> I questioned this too -- asked a diesel mechanic who said pressure was 1700 to 1800 with upper limit of 2700. Maybe above figure has one too many zeroes (I can tell you I used to work in very high pressure area of a chemical plant and the 27000 number is W-A-Y out of line!). Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 12:49:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA28923; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:42:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28918; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:42:08 -0400 Received: from slip-91-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36406; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:42:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:42:06 -0500 Message-Id: <9609101242.AA36406@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: re: Fuel Economy Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:26 est, RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au wrote: >X-Ceo_Options: Document > >begin 660 ceomail.msd >M/CY)9B!Y;W4@8VAO;W-E('1O(')U;B!A(#0P,"MC:60@96YG:6YE+"!T:&5N >M('1O('!R;V1U8V4@=&AE('-O2!F What's this ?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 13:16:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA28999; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:05:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA28994; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:05:00 -0400 Received: from slip-91-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40594; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:04:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:04:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9609101304.AA40594@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Playing... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? > [ snip ] >Like, I think the Idea is: Keep the current constant, measure the voltage across to get that current, have another bit of wire as a reference, and an absolute air temp/ atmospheric pressure reading, and away you go? > Okay, can I speculate too?? I know that liquid and gas measurements have been made by using a heated wire (or thermocouple). The concept was to use two of them. One a reference and the other in the flow. Measure the temp of each and the difference is proportional to the flow. If the same current passes through both wires (or 'both' is actually the same wire), any error from heating current variation ought to be lessened. Bye-the-bye; to get a constant current, one would not want to measure the voltage across nichrome, as it changes resistance with temperature (e.g. air flow). The voltage you measure, with the current constant, would therefore be related to air flow. If you were to take two pieces of NiCr, say 1" long each (and very thin, say 30 AWG). Put one in the air flow and the other where it is cooled by only convection (where?). Wire them in series and measure the difference in the voltage dropped across each of them?? Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 13:21:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA29043; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:12:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA29038; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:12:38 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA03614; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:10:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? In-Reply-To: <1369799007-11870179@uia.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > > From: Thor Johnson > > To: DIY EFI Maillist > > Subject: Water Injection for power? > > Date: Sunday, September 08, 1996 4:31 PM > > > > > > I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an > > article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of > > the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water > > (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would > > > flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into > > mechanical power. > > > Why bother? The British in their pre-war experiments with water injection > directly injected the water in a fine mist into the inlet of the mechanical > supercharger of the Rolls Royce engine powering the spitfire. At any > reasonable injection rate engine thermal loss's went down as the per cent > rate of water to fuel went up. If memory serves me correctly at about 30 > percent the engines water cooling was no longer a factor. Methyl Alcohol > was added in a small percentage as an antifreeze - tis no such thing as a > warm day at 30,000+ feet altitude. > I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up > linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, > + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. So I could inject water at the intake manifold without losing power while maintiang the cooling effect? Good to know, cuz I don't want to actually pull the engine to pieces. Slightly unrelated question: does anyone know how this would affect *heated* O2 sensors? Thanks! Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 13:34:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA29077; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:24:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA29072; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:24:00 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15638 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:26:24 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA28140; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: more water injection In-Reply-To: <199609031634.AA29699@internet-mail2.ford.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed in with the gas in the tank? I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the deal? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 14:24:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA29259; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:13:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29254; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:13:31 -0400 Received: from frankparker.chem.lsa.umich.edu by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.3) with SMTP id KAA11620; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:24:56 -0600 (EDT) From: Frank Parker To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? X-Sender: fparker@f.imap.itd.umich.edu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > So I could inject water at the intake manifold without losing power > while maintiang the cooling effect? Good to know, cuz I don't want to > actually pull the engine to pieces. Slightly unrelated question: does > anyone know how this would affect *heated* O2 sensors? > > Thanks! > Thor Johnson > johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu > http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont > Should not be a problem. Complete combustion of hydrocarbons gives CO2 and H2O. Only problem I have seen is some special O2 sensors for measuring a/f have a limit on temp change rate and thus have time delays built into the electronics so that when the engine is started, the power is delayed to heater circuit of O2 sensor so any liquid water from condensation etc does not get on hot sensor and thus exceed is degC/time limits.Power is applied after about 30 sec delay. This is true of Bosch LA-2 a/f meter using LSM-11 sensor. Standard automotive sensors try to heat asap so can go to closed loop asap. Biggest area of current emmissions study is how to reduce early cold start emissions. Trying such things as phase change salt solutions to hold heat. Frank Parker From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 14:33:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA29303; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:24:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29297; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:24:32 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA18534; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:23:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F34.470D7280@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:36 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F34.470D7280@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Fuel Economy Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:18:31 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi It's that start of a UU encoded file called CEOMAIL.MSD For those that are interested... UUEncode is this: Take 3 bytes lay it out as 24 bits chop 24 bits into 4 6 bit lumps treat each of those 6 bits as an ascii character. This way the data can be sent over any line, including 7 bit systems. Mark ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 2:42 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: Fuel Economy On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:26 est, RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au wrote: >X-Ceo_Options: Document > >begin 660 ceomail.msd >M/CY)9B!Y;W4@8VAO;W-E('1O(')U;B!A(#0P,"MC:60@96YG:6YE+"!T:&5N >M('1O('!R;V1U8V4@=&AE('-O2!F What's this ?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 14:35:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA29315; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:27:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29307; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:25:44 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA18538; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:23:50 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9F34.49682B60@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:40 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9F34.49682B60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:21:42 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey guys... I feel PROUD when I manage to thrash my car UNDER 20MPG... = to achive less that 25 MPG requires new tires at the end of the run! Its = a real shame only having 1.5 litres (but my body weight is so low I = still get performance enough to scare me down the little lanes). Mark ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 2:23 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ancient History >> Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I = mean, >> I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, >> and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them;=20 > >[snip] > >You better believe it: when driving from Dallas to memphis, speed range = 70 mph >to 95 mph, I got 27.5 mpg. Most of the tankful was driving at 80mph. A = friend=20 >in a '95 Trans Am that made the trip with me had a best of 28.5 (his = engine was >more broken in, mine was fresh at 2k miles).=20 > When I asked this question, I was not impugning anyone's honor -- hope it wasn't taken that way. I just want the formula! (The best story I have is averaging ~80 MPH from CT to TX and averaging 24 mpg in '88 towncar =3D=3D> 302 with 3800 pounds. But that was not normal.) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 14:45:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA29364; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:35:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29359; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:35:16 -0400 Received: from TMC2.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU by tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26267; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:38:16 -0400 Received: by tmc2.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36776; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:35:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" X-Sender: mtk@tmc2.astm.cmri.cmu.edu To: diy_efi Subject: Re: more water injection In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Dirk Wright wrote: > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > > I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with > added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that > you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas > in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under > certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need > for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the > deal? Gasoline is lighter than water, and hence "floats" on top of it. You fuel tank pick-up is located in the bottom of the tank. You add water to the tank and all you'll be injecting into the engine is water. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@andrew.cmu.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 14:50:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA29396; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:42:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ni.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA29391; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:42:32 -0400 Received: from weasel.com by ni.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA00591; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:42:29 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960910144635.0092a0f0@pop.ni.net> X-Sender: jdeifik@pop.ni.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:46:35 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Jeff Deifik Subject: Re: Electric vehicle , wrong list for this discussion, but I must Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jerry Wills writes: >Folks, > One person is already doing some of what you would like. > >good acceleration , 0-60 in the 4 sec. range 7 sec range, or 4.5 sec range, see below. >motors drive all wheels directly Through a trans. Either FWD or RWD >regenerative braking > >for long distance a small trailer , just big enough for a stationary gas >generator, which yields 40ish mpg. > >the battery technology is the problem at the moment >The car started out as a honda, and still looks like it on the outside, >but not under the hood. The guy name is Alan ?????, our former sunracer >my know his last name and company, or I can find out. He was a consultant >to GM for a while. Email me directly if you must have more info. Jerry got most of his information from me. I have driven or been a passanger in three generations of Alan Coconni's cars. His company is called AC Propulsion. He designed and built the electronics and motors for the GM Impact as well as the Sunnyraycer. Genertaion 1 (after Impact) 100 kw honda crx. 0-60 7.8 seconds, top speed @90 mph, 131 miles on a charge (using EPA loop) @3000 lbs, FWD Generation 2 150kw (@200hp) honda VX. 0-60 @6sec, top speed @90 mph, range @140 miles @3000lbs, FWD Generation 3 220hp, built on limited production sportscar chassis 0-60 @4.5sec, top speed @90mph, weight @2500lbs, RWD Gen 1 & 2 use a honda transmission, with only one gear present. Gen 3 uses an unknown transmission, with only one gear present, Gen 1 battery life 3k miles to 50% capacity. Gen 2 & 3 battery like @20k miles. I used to sell his 1/2 used batteries... Charging time 1 hour minimum. Jeff turbo Deifik turbo@weasel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 15:20:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA29490; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:06:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA29485; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:06:33 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:04:20 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 10 Sep 96 16:04:34 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 10 Sep 96 16:04:18 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:04:16 GMT0BST Subject: Re: more water injection X-Confirm-Reading-To: "M HILL" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Dirk Wright > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: more water injection > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > > I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with > added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that > you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas > in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under > certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need > for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the > deal? > > > **************************************************************************** > Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov > "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 > "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House > **************************************************************************** > > I am led to believe that the reason you do not want water in the petrol tank is that water is heavier than petrol, and will therefore sit at the bottom of the tank and make it go rusty. You are unlikely to get the water mixed up with the petrol. I do not know much about the products used to remove water from the petrol tank, but I imagine they just make it all mix up together. Thus enabling it to be pumped out of the petrol tank. Martin From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 16:02:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA29672; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:50:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA29667; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:50:28 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.32) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:53:00 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: more water injection Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:47:49 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369776916-13198736@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Dirk Wright > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: more water injection > Date: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 6:23 AM > > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > Simple chemistry. Water and gasoline do not mix - they blend. Let them sit for even a few seconds and they separate - remember the lava lamps - illustrates the separation perfectly. A pump drawing a blend would have totally unpredictable results. And since petrol floats on water, one would tend to pick up more water than gas and this would not make reliable power. Remember, water only works with EXCESS heat - and contributes no heat to the process. No heateee - no tickee - no shirtee.. Further, gasoline blends easily with air to form a combustible mixture. Water is far more reluctant to blend with air at STP, so it needs to be atomizing into a fine mist by pressure injection. Different fluids, different process's and storage. Think Nitrous Oxide. One would not doubt that vast increases in power are made on the bottle - but you don't toss it in the tank and get results. One respects the chemistry of each component and use's that to get results. What one is looking for is a correct mixture in the combustion chamber. Just because Oil and Vinegar taste great on salad does not mean that we store the blend together. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 17:23:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA29990; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:03:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from admin1.cc.uleth.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA29985; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:03:02 -0400 Received: by hg.uleth.ca (MX V4.2 AXP) id 1972; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:02:27 MST Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:02:32 MST From: DAN FURGASON To: DIY_EFI Message-ID: <009A8290.079F43AE.1972@hg.uleth.ca> Subject: Al Tubing Bender Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Last spring Dan Elsberg of Cornell made mention of a tubing bender he had designed and fabricated. He e-mailed me a discription and asked me to forward it to the list. Dan Elsberg wrote: Sorry it took me several months to get back to you about the tube bender. I was way busy during the school year, but have now graduated and can put down some basic directions. (I am no longer on the DIY-EFI list, but if you could forward this to the list, I would appreciate it.) The tube bender is basically the exact same thing as one of the small hand brake line benders. There needs to be a round mandril which fits half of the tube in it. The diameter of this mandril will define the diameter of the 'u's that you bend. We made this by rough cutting a piece of mild steel on the lathe. (Take a piece of round stock, chuck it up, cut in a semicircle gouge that is "one radius of the tubing that you want to bend" deep.) This should be close to the final round shape, but not any deeper. Then take a ball end mill of the same diameter as your tubing and put the mandril piece on a dividing head and finish cutting the semi-circle groove to the perfect shape. Make sure you run the mill at the slowest speed to begin with and go slowly. Once the tip starts cutting, you are asking everything to do some hard work-- things will wobble and make a lot of noise and smoke. Next we cut the mandril off from the excess length of stock. Then we drilled four holes in the mandril through the flat sides to fit the lever arm into and reamed one hole in the middle for the pivot/axle. The outside or smaller mandril was made from a half piece of tubing that was bent out a bit to fit around the aluminum to be bent. It was welded to a few pieces of plate to make a box shaped assembly that had room for a hole in order to attach it to the base plate of the bender. The next piece was a base plate (we used 1/2" thick steel). We drilled and reamed two holes in it for the pivots of the two mandril pieces. The spacing should be relatively accurate so that when the two mandrils fit together, there is a perfect circle (otherwise the aluminum will squish out the gap.) The outside mandril should actually meet the inside mandril at a point. One corner will be right against the inside circle and the part will trail off on a tangent. __ / \ _ ( () ) <----inside mandril (a circle) outside mandril--> | | \__/ | | |_| Top View (correct) _ __ | | / \ | |( () ) <----inside mandril (a circle) outside mandril--> |_| \__/ Top View (incorrect) These drawings are not to scale-- the inside mandril is much larger that the outside mandril. Finally you need to make something that will pull the tubing around the inside mandril as it is bent. On the hand benders this is made of several pieces of plate held together and pivots in and out of the plane of the u-bends. This will take a lot of force so make it beefy. This piece bolts to the inside mandril. The aluminum will have to be normalized to take it down to T0. I think that dillsburg or other folks sell tubing that is already soft, but we had to put our 6061-T6 pieces in an oven and treat them. (I don't remember the recipe, but you can look it up in a metals or heat treating handbook.) It is all just easier if you buy the right stuff to begin with. I have been told that the aluminum will actually time harden back up to somewhere between T0 and T6, but I don't know how long this takes or any details. Now assemble the parts on the base plate using round stock as the pivots/axles (we used 1" mild steel). Fashion yourself a lever arm that can drop into the holes drilled in the inside mandril (goes into two holes at a time). The lever should be about 6 feet long. Lube everything up with WD40 and place the aluminum tube in so that the part that pulls the tube around is lined flat against the outside mandril. The tube should stick about an inch past the end of the pulling part. Turn the inside mandril with the lever arm and it will pull the aluminum around and bend it as it goes. You will have to experiment with the exact placements of all the parts, because the aluminum is prone to locally buckling and flatening. Sorry that this may be a little hard to follow, but you really should buy one of the brake line benders to get an idea of how this really works. The whole thing took us about 2 weeks to manufacture and tune. There is also about 60 to 80 pounds worth of steel between the mandril, the base plate, and the scrap left on the shop floor. I mentioned this several months ago, but if anyone wants to purchase some U's we would be willing to figure out a reasonable price-- the shops we found who were willing to do it wanted some outrageous price for it. (Just found the email I sent out months ago: We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of machining and then another couple of days playing around with the technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk about it. ) Good luck and happy machining, --dan -- Dan Elsberg dhe1@cornell.edu 203 Williams St. Apt. 1 277-9503 Ithaca, NY 14850 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 17:29:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA00025; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:13:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00020; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:12:55 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id KAA29870 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:54 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id KAA25798 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:52 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id KAA14258 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:20:39 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:20:39 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960910101849.391f6390@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is the O2 sensor affected by leaded gas or is it just the cat conv? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 18:53:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00277; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:37:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00270; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:36:57 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16605 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:21 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA15370; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:36:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: more water injection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, M HILL wrote: > > > I am led to believe that the reason you do not want water in the > petrol tank is that water is heavier than petrol, and will therefore > sit at the bottom of the tank and make it go rusty. You are unlikely > to get the water mixed up with the petrol. I do not know much about > the products used to remove water from the petrol tank, but I imagine > they just make it all mix up together. Thus enabling it to be pumped > out of the petrol tank. OK, assume that the tank is rust-proof (sealed on the inside), and that the water is mixed thoroughly with the gas using some type of alcohol, and that the fuel system can tolerate both the water and the alcohol, would this give you more power and/or economy? You could assume distilled water is used, also, if you wish. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 18:53:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00222; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:33:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00217; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:33:54 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16584 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:36:19 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA15199; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:33:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: more water injection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Michael T. Kasimirsky wrote: > > Gasoline is lighter than water, and hence "floats" on top of it. You > fuel tank pick-up is located in the bottom of the tank. You add water to > the tank and all you'll be injecting into the engine is water. OK, but what if you add enough alcohol to disperse the water into the gasoline? Would you get better performance? It has been recommended that some type of alcohol be added to the water in a water injection system, so why bother with the separate system and just mix it all up in the gas tank? I'm assuming that the type of alcohol used would be compatable with the fuel system. Is it just an issue of control over when the water is injected? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 18:58:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00290; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:44:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00285; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:44:17 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16613 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:46:37 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA15888; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:44:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: more water injection In-Reply-To: <1369776916-13198736@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > > Further, gasoline blends easily with air to form a combustible mixture. > Water is far more reluctant to blend with air at STP, so it needs to be > atomizing into a fine mist by pressure injection. Different fluids, > different > process's and storage. OK, what if we added alcohol to disperse the water into the gas, and the engine had fuel injection. The gas and the water would be atomized together. Would this give more power? The only reason I can see for using a separate system would be for control over exactly when the water was injected. But, how critical is the timing of the water injection? Assuming a constant water/gas ratio, in the above senario, more water/gas mixture would be injected during periods of high power, so more water would get in to the cylinders anyway. > > What one is looking for is a correct mixture in the combustion chamber. > Just because Oil and Vinegar taste great on salad does not mean that > we store the blend together. Um, we usually store them together when they are intended as a salad dressing.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 19:52:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00490; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:40:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gwa.ericsson.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00485; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:40:43 -0400 Received: from mr1.exu.ericsson.se (mr1.exu.ericsson.com [138.85.147.11]) by gwa.ericsson.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA22423 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.10.50]) by mr1.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.1/NAHUB-MR1.1) with ESMTP id OAA13613 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (eusmsrt@b01e25 [138.85.20.125]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05614 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Markus Strobl Received: (eusmsrt@localhost) by b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00553 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:39:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199609101939.OAA00553@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Its = > a real shame only having 1.5 litres (but my body weight is so low I = > still get performance enough to scare me down the little lanes). > > Mark I thought having *negative* body weight was in violation of the laws of physics? :-) ------- Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 20:04:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00523; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:53:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gwa.ericsson.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00518; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:53:00 -0400 Received: from mr1.exu.ericsson.se (mr1.exu.ericsson.com [138.85.147.11]) by gwa.ericsson.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA22861 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:52:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.10.50]) by mr1.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.1/NAHUB-MR1.1) with ESMTP id OAA13855 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:52:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (eusmsrt@b01e25 [138.85.20.125]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06388 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:52:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Markus Strobl Received: (eusmsrt@localhost) by b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00561 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:52:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:52:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199609101952.OAA00561@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Is the O2 sensor affected by leaded gas or is it just the cat conv? me > *************************************************************************** > * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * The O2 sensor will fail. Not after the first tankful but within a few months. The Cat will get clogged both with lead and also with soot since the O2 sensor will start sending weird data to the PCM/ECM. Markus From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 21:53:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA00785; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:35:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00774; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:35:24 -0400 Received: from slip-99-6.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41917; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:55:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:55:07 -0500 From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Message-Id: <9609102055.AA41917@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Apparently-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 21:53:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA00786; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:35:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA00780; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:35:26 -0400 Received: from slip-99-6.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41924; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:56:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:56:59 -0500 From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Message-Id: <9609102056.AA41924@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Apparently-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 22:28:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA00906; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:19:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00893; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:19:28 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20484>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:21:34 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep11.102134nzst.20484@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:17:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: re: Re: hi compressions X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >You could spline a single shaft to keep it from spinning also. But, valves >rotate now by design, right? Why, and what would happen to an oddly shaped >valve that couldn't rotate? >- --steve I guess your thinking that cos valves rotate, that they more or less self-lap themselves to ensure a continued seal over a longer period of time. Probably right too, I guess only experimentation would show to what extent. Mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 22:28:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA00889; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:17:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA00884; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:17:50 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9BL0OF82800009K@UALR.EDU>; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:15:30 CDT Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:52:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: re: Re: hi compressions To: diy_efi Message-id: <297686.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> Well there are a few engines out there that have valves that DON'T -> rotate. These are the old Boss engines from Ford (302,351 and the -> 429). These valves are held in place by keepers that pinch the valve -> stem (ie the keepers don't butt against eachother). Actually, the vast majority of engines are like this. Engines with valves free to rotate are the exception. ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 23:24:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01006; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:10:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01001; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:10:22 -0400 Received: from slip-33-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32423; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:10:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:10:19 -0500 Message-Id: <9609102310.AA32423@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: more water injection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water >> injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? [ snip ] >I am led to believe that the reason you do not want water in the >petrol tank is that water is heavier than petrol, and will therefore >sit at the bottom of the tank and make it go rusty. [ snip ] good grief! water and gas don't mix!!! that's why the water has to be squirted in whilst the intake is open. adding methanol, isopropanol, or ethanol doesn't get rid of water in the tank and fuel lines, it allows the water to dissolve into the alcohol / gasoline mixture (I think it's called 'miscible' in chemistry class). tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 23:33:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01044; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:24:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01039; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:24:06 -0400 Received: from Default (port24.tserver2.ao.net [205.244.242.84]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA17390 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:23:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:23:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199609102323.TAA17390@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up >linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, >+ 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. > >Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of >fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. So if I went out to my car and fed my 455ci engine a 50/50 mix of water/ fuel I'd get the same power? I have a hard time believing this at full throttle - plus I cant afford that much water :(, but will it work for part throttle, ie cruising, speeds? I think I can get around the mineral buildups with a weekly trip to the track w/ high octane gas..... >WTF does it work? 70% plus of chemical energy released by combustion >leaves the engine as excess heat. Absorb any of that EXCESS heat and >turn water to steam and you gain either power or fuel economy or both. But won't the added water particles reduce the ability to create a complete combustion? > >PS Ever wonder what is really going on during combustion. Check the >pressure temp curves of the three major gasses present after combustion. >CO2, N2 and H2O. Check out how much partial pressure each contributes >to the mix. Then remember, that as a rough approximate, one gallon of >gasoline makes 2 gallons of water in the exhaust. That much water comes out of my tailpipe? Arnaldo From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 10 23:43:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01094; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:35:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01088; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:35:10 -0400 From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us Received: from jac.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip11.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.51]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA21044 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:37:38 -0600 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 17:17:03 PDT Subject: water injection To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Within the last few months I read an article about recent efforts to perfect an agent to maintain naptha and water as a stable colloid. In addition to being useful as a fuel, the criteria for acceptability include multiple transitions from high to low temperatures without separation. The magazine may have been MACHINE DESIGN. I believe that the University of Arizona and Caterpillar were both mentioned. Did any one else see the article? I would like to read it again. John Carroll ------------------------------------- jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us 09/10/96 17:17:03 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 00:17:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01207; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:06:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA01202; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:06:37 -0400 Received: from slip-33-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42208; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:06:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:06:35 -0500 Message-Id: <9609110006.AA42208@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: interesting web site Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Check out http://reality.sgi.com/employees/rck/PhOR/01-Weight-Transfer.html It is a series of pages written by Brian Beckman on auto handling. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 01:14:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA01311; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:05:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA01306; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:04:49 -0400 From: oecar1@oec4.orbeng.com.au Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA25085 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:04:42 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to oecar1@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA23354; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:54:23 +0800 Message-Id: <9609110054.AA23354@oec4.orbeng.com.au> Subject: re: Fuel Economy To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:54:22 +0800 (WST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>If you choose to run a 400+cid engine, then to produce the sort of >>power necessary for cruising (10-20 hp), you will be running >>relatively low manifold pressures compared to a smaller engine >>producing the same power. Remember, the manifold depression is >>un-recovered, therfore represents a power loss. > >At the same RPM? Could you clarify this? Exactly! at the same RPM >An engine requires a minimum a/f ratio to overcome frictional losses, >keep inertia (accel=0), and move the drivetrain not a/f ratio, this is constant at 14.7 or so, but a minimum fuelling level, or fuel flow rate (= power) >The manifold pressure is just a function of the throttle position and the rpm, >not of the load, at least I don't think. Manifold pressure is the best measure of load (aside from direct airflow measurement). That's why many people in the world use MAP sensors. >>The slower you spin the engine, then the higher the manifold pressure >>is for the same airflow (power), hence your pumping work (losses) is >>less. Dropping the axle ratio (numerically) will give you benefits in >>fuel consumption at the same (road) speed simply because you have your >>foot on the throttle harder (strange but true! :) > >Wait. You said that the higher the manifold depresion, the higher the >power loss. Now you say that the higher manifold pressure you get less pumping >work (ie better fuel economy)?? Now I'm really confused. Which is it? It's both! (I must apologise for the confusing choice of words) When I say manifold pressure, I mean Absolute Pressure, however manifold depression is measured relative to atmospheric pressure which is 101.325 kPa Absolute. Depression/Vacuum and Absolute pressure are effectively the inverse of each other. > >OK then you say that dropping your axle ratio gives you better gas mileage, >which I agree (when I went from a 2.79:1 final drive ratio to a 2.05:1 ratio on a 305 >I went from 16 to 21.5MPG). But then you say it is because you have your foot >on the throttle harder? No way. On that same car I remember barely touching >the gas when cruising at 75mph (about 2000rpm or so) when before I would have to get >on it at least 3/8 pedal. > OK, throttles are notoriously non-linear devices, and the characteristics at 2000 rpm are not the same as at 2720 rpm, therefore maybe you did have your foot less on the 'gas' but I bet your manifold pressure was higher (or your manifold depression/vacuum less!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 01:19:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA01347; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:15:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA01341; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:14:56 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA25650 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:14:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA24091; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:06:44 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA24091; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:06:44 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00159; Wed, 11 Sep 96 09:05:58 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609111305.AA00159@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:05:46 est To: diy_efi Subject: Re; Ancient History Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque >only at 5252 (which is agreed). Then this is the only place where >they CAN both be a maximum. Not that they are a maximum. But that >this is the only point where they can both be a maximum at the same >time. OK, now try the calculation in kW and N.m and see if you come to the same conclusion! From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 01:19:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA01342; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:14:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA01326; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:14:50 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA25633 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:14:40 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA23665; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:01:35 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA23665; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:01:35 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00159; Wed, 11 Sep 96 09:03:49 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609111303.AA00159@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:03:28 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: re: Propane Injectors Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>>> >>>> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, >>> >>>Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >>>really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred >PSI. >>> >I questioned this too -- asked a diesel mechanic who said pressure >was 1700 to 1800 with upper limit of 2700. Maybe above figure has >one too many zeroes (I can tell you I used to work in very high >pressure area of a chemical plant and the 27000 number is W-A-Y out >of line!). Bosch Automotive Handbook (good reference for heaps of general questions guys!) say that "the fuel injection pump must supply fuel at a pressure of between 350 and 1200 bar" which works out to be between about 5100 and 17600 psi. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 02:21:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA01455; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:13:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from origin.ea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01450; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:13:49 -0400 Received: from mlamari.origin.ea.com by origin.ea.com via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id VAA22589; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:13:30 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960911021338.006d8f64@studio.origin.ea.com> X-Sender: mlamari@studio.origin.ea.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:13:38 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Matthew Lamari Subject: Re: Re; Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:05 AM 9/11/96 est, you wrote: >>I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque >>only at 5252 (which is agreed). Then this is the only place where >>they CAN both be a maximum. Not that they are a maximum. But that >>this is the only point where they can both be a maximum at the same >>time. > >OK, now try the calculation in kW and N.m and see if you come to the >same conclusion! > That's where the lines cross for those units; but hp does not equal torque as their units are different. You could say two powers are equal, or two torques are equal, or two areas. . . . Yeah, I was having a strange time believing that 5252 was some sort of universal constant, when everyone knows the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42!! Matthew "References to Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy are purely irrational" Lamari From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 04:40:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA01703; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:34:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01698; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:34:50 -0400 Received: from pmeU19.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU19.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.20]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id VAA07710 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609110434.VAA07710@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Playing... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:04 AM 9/10/96 -0500, Mark Pitts wrote: >>Is there any reason why I can't build my own mass meter wth some nichrome >>wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? And Tom Cloud replied: >Okay, can I speculate too?? I know that liquid and gas measurements >have been made by using a heated wire (or thermocouple). The concept This is the way most thermal mass flowmeters work. Often, they use two identical thermistors, one in the aistream with a large enough current forced through it to cause self-heating, the other with minimal current at the same temp as, but not in the gas stream. Then, either measure the resistance difference, or servo the current into the sensor to maintain the same voltage as the reference, and measure the current. I read an application note somewhere about a group that made a relatively accurate flowmeter out of a couple of #47 panel lamps. They broke the glass envelope off one of them (sensor), and put it in the airstream, and left the other bulb intact (reference). Force a constant current through the two in series, and measure the voltage across the sensing element. This would be the ultimate in cheep MAF's! I'm not sure if the reference element was also in the gas stream, but I know they limited the current to a value low enough so they didn't burn out the filaments (no light). Let me know if you try this, I'd be interested in the results. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 05:33:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA01792; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:25:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA01787; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:25:47 -0400 Received: from tomlinsc.ix.netcom.com (det-mi3-01.ix.netcom.com [199.183.194.97]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA29138 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:25:45 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960911052543.006ba7f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: tomlinsc@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:25:43 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Chuck Tomlinson Subject: Re: Ancient History Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque >only at 5252 (which is agreed). True. If power is measured in hp and torque in lb-ft, then the torque and power curves must cross at 5252 rpm. No exceptions. >Then this is the only place where >they CAN both be a maximum. Not that they are a maximum. But that >this is the only point where they can both be a maximum at the same >time. Not true. At peak hp, the torque vs rpm curve has a slope equal to (-Torque/rpm). That's the only requirement. So if the torque curve peaks at some rpm and assumes that negative slope immediately after the peak, then hp and torque will both peak at that rpm. In theory, that can occur at any rpm. In practice, it is unlikely to happen at all. Having peak hp and torque at the same rpm means that the torque curve *must* have a discontinuity in its slope. IMHO, this is so unlikely that it's difficult for me not to use the word "impossible". Math crap follows... P(ower) = T(orque) * n(rpm) * k(constant). In USCS, k = 1/5252. P = T * n * k. At peak hp, power curve's slope dP/dn = 0. But dP/dn = k * d(T.n)/dn = k * (T + (dT/dn * n)) So dP/dn = 0 when dT/dn = -T/n -- Chuck Tomlinson From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 07:36:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA02013; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:25:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA02008; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:25:22 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Wed, 11 Sep 96 09:25:19 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 11 Sep 96 9:25:19 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 11 Sep 96 9:25:17 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:25:12 MET Subject: Radial- Diametral Head Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <2F2AA95CE9@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi head builders, because of the big resonance for the radial- diametral head of "Apfelbeck", I put the GIF images on the web. http://www.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de/~hiha/gif/ The ISBN's and book titles are Ludwig Apfelbeck Wege zum hochleistungs Viertaktmotor ISBN 3 - 87943 - 578 - 2 and L. Apfelbeck / H. Weichsler Ventilsteuerungen fuer Hochleistungsmotoren ISBN 3 - 613 - 01272 - 3 Both have ~200-250 pages and cost around 25$ He discribes many simple ways to tune and new-build an engine. 40 valve curves for different purposes are added. Regards Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 09:10:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA02216; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:00:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02193; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:00:07 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA20622; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:00:05 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9FD0.3B1EAA60@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:58:57 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9FD0.3B1EAA60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Thor Johnson'" Subject: RE: Water Injection for power? Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:34:36 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Cant remember if I mentioned this... but I learned to drive in a Citroen = 2CV (you know those things... the ones that dont get chrome door = handles.. and after you see one corner you realize why) But.... 1 got 10 = miles an hour (85 instead of 75) flat out, on a cold and misty morning, = to a fine and clear one... call it atmospheric water injection!=20 So I recon there is a lot to be said for water and density!! (bear in = mind this 4 seater car only had 600cc!). Mark. ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 09:10:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA02162; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:59:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA02157; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:59:45 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20588; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:59:41 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9FD0.2B6872E0@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:58:31 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9FD0.2B6872E0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'Arnaldo Echevarria'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Water Injection for power? Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:44:53 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi My exhaust system has a 'sump' in it, and on a really cold start (-10c), = it condenses in the pipe, and fills up. I know this, because while manouvreing out my works car park (after = leaving the car there for a night due to snow), I blew enough shit out = on a quick blip to completely drench wis white BMW in black water! I recon I got about 1/4 pint of water out after it had been warming up = for 20 mins on full choke! (looked like a glass full in quantity). Mark (who is no longer employed by the above BMW driving boss) ;-) ---------- From: Arnaldo Echevarria[SMTP:aec@ao.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 1996 1:24 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? >I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up=20 >linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% = water,=20 >+ 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. > >Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of >fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. So if I went out to my car and fed my 455ci engine a 50/50 mix of water/ fuel I'd get the same power? I have a hard time believing this at full throttle - plus I cant afford that much water :(, but will it work for = part throttle, ie cruising, speeds? =20 I think I can get around the mineral buildups with a weekly trip to the = track w/ high octane gas..... >WTF does it work? 70% plus of chemical energy released by combustion >leaves the engine as excess heat. Absorb any of that EXCESS heat and >turn water to steam and you gain either power or fuel economy or both. But won't the added water particles reduce the ability to create a = complete combustion? > >PS Ever wonder what is really going on during combustion. Check the >pressure temp curves of the three major gasses present after = combustion. >CO2, N2 and H2O. Check out how much partial pressure each contributes >to the mix. Then remember, that as a rough approximate, one gallon of >gasoline makes 2 gallons of water in the exhaust.=20 That much water comes out of my tailpipe? Arnaldo From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 09:10:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA02194; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:00:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02178; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:00:04 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA20618; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:00:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9FD0.38D4BA60@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:58:53 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9FD0.38D4BA60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Matthew Lamari'" Subject: RE: Re; Ancient History Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:22:49 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey tin man... you didnt call just to wash your head at us, so whats the score. (Zaphod... to Marv just before carpark in Milliways... where they found it... big black, and steeres like a cow.) Mark... Hitching right off thread ;-) Sorry.. promise not to do it again! ---------- From: Matthew Lamari[SMTP:mlamari@origin.ea.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 1996 4:14 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Re; Ancient History At 09:05 AM 9/11/96 est, you wrote: >>I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque >>only at 5252 (which is agreed). Then this is the only place where >>they CAN both be a maximum. Not that they are a maximum. But that >>this is the only point where they can both be a maximum at the same >>time. > >OK, now try the calculation in kW and N.m and see if you come to the >same conclusion! > That's where the lines cross for those units; but hp does not equal torque as their units are different. You could say two powers are equal, or two torques are equal, or two areas. . . . Yeah, I was having a strange time believing that 5252 was some sort of universal constant, when everyone knows the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42!! Matthew "References to Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy are purely irrational" Lamari From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 09:10:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA02176; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:00:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02171; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:00:00 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20608; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:59:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9FD0.368943C0@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:58:49 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9FD0.368943C0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Markus Strobl'" Subject: RE: Ancient History Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:18:56 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi So I way in at 122 lbs but.. I can lift my engine!... I can also lift my = chassis with the G'box in it, and I can lift the whole Body shell with = the interior in it up!... so I reckon the whole car could be picked up = by about 5 of me... now drop 120 BHP into a 15 foot by 4'10 car at that = weight... Is still quick.. not fast.. but QUICK.. (also allows very = quick 'S' bends, as the body doesn't roll.. never had it so the body was = on the piss still from the last bend when entering the next one.. helps = against the more powerful slugs! Mark (who still wants to build a 2.2 litre v8 to put in it) ---------- From: Markus Strobl[SMTP:eusmsrt@exu.ericsson.se] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 9:40 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Ancient History > Its =3D > a real shame only having 1.5 litres (but my body weight is so low I = =3D > still get performance enough to scare me down the little lanes). >=20 > Mark I thought having *negative* body weight was in violation of the laws of physics?=20 :-) ------- Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 09:10:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA02169; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:59:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA02164; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:59:56 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20604; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:59:56 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9FD0.3460E580@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:58:46 +-200 Message-ID: <01BB9FD0.3460E580@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Mark Eidson'" Subject: RE: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:11:37 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Nope... not just the puss that dies... Pb kills the o2 as well... which = is a shame, cos I like lead... unless any body out there knows of an o2 = that can cope with lead. Mark=20 ---------- From: Mark Eidson[SMTP:mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 7:21 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Is the O2 sensor affected by leaded gas or is it just the cat conv? me *************************************************************************= ** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 = * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 = * * Manager System Integration and = * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com = * * VLSI Technology, Inc. = * * 8375 South River Parkway = * * M/S 265 = * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 = * *************************************************************************= ** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 11:08:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA02437; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:57:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA02432; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:57:42 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx02-18.teleport.com (ip-pdx03-15.teleport.com [206.163.120.143]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA10902 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609111057.DAA10902@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #269 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: Chuck Tomlinson >Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:25:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Ancient History > >>I believe the point that is trying to be made is that if HP = Torque >>only at 5252 (which is agreed). > >True. If power is measured in hp and torque in lb-ft, then the >torque and power curves must cross at 5252 rpm. No exceptions. Oh I don't know about that! If you go down to the local hot rod shop often you'll find some product there with dyno charts for their product that show that torque and hp aren't the same at 5252.! These guys should use just a little more sense when they draw there performance curves, but I always appreciate the clue! From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 11:38:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA02528; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:30:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA02523; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:29:45 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.212]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03403; Wed, 11 Sep 96 13:23:08 +0200 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 13:23:07 +0200 Message-Id: <9609111123.AA03403@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: group buy pcb& chip Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HELLO TO ALL I want to know where ,also how (by credit card it's possible?) , I can purchase the pcb, for the efi ecu 68332 based cpu and relative BDM , the 'special chip': MC68332acfc20 AM29f010-120JC 5v eeprom 821949-5 - bottom part of 68332 socket 821942-1 . It's possible by a group if exist? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 13:51:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02796; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:38:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from blkcat.blkcat.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02791; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:38:18 -0400 Received: from blkcat.fidonet.org (uucp@localhost) by blkcat.blkcat.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with FIDOGATE id JAA09512; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:45:04 -0400 Received: by f41.n109.z1.fidonet.org (FIDOGATE 3.9.6) id AA09419; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:40:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:08:09 -0400 From: Frank_Mallory@srs.blkcat.com (Frank Mallory) Subject: water injection Message-ID: To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu"@blkcat.blkcat.com Organization: Net 109 Fidonet <-> Internet Gateway Lines: 22 X-Gateway: FIDO .. blkcat.fidonet.org [FIDOGATE 3.9.6] X-FTN-From: Frank Mallory @ 1:109/417.0 X-FTN-To: diy_efi @ 1:109/42.0 X-FTN-Via: FIDOGATE/ftntoss 1:109/42, Wed Sep 11 1996 at 09:30:16 EDT X-FTN-Domain: Z1@fidonet Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi d>Within the last few months I read an article about recent d>efforts to perfect an agent to maintain naptha and water d>as a stable colloid. In addition to being useful as a d>fuel, the criteria for acceptability include multiple d>transitions from high to low temperatures without d>separation. d>The magazine may have been MACHINE DESIGN. I believe that d>the University of Arizona and Caterpillar were both d>mentioned. d>Did any one else see the article? I would like to read it d>again. Caterpillar is supposedly working with a guy named Gunnerman to develop this "wonder fuel". I'll believe it when I see it. d>--- FIDOGATE 3.9.7 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 18:35:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA03830; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:23:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA03825; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:23:22 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.31) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:25:52 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Altitude Compensation Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:24:43 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369681344-18945996@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From what I read and hear, the Air Flow sensor used in production EFI's at best compensate for temp and density changes in the intake air mass. Then the oxygen sensor is used to fine tune the mixture to a rich power setting - I.E. no uncombined oxygen Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent of the density decrease. Basically, this means that to maintain a constant fuel /oxygen mixture (which is what counts because the rest of the air is meaningless for combustion) for a given power, more air most be ingested and a leaner fuel/air mixture used or it becomes overrich. Incidentally, why you lean out a piston aircraft engine at altitude is more to avoid a cool burning overrich mixture slowing carboning up and fouling out your engine than just enhancing economy. Basically, as I understand it, the oxygen sensor corrects this after the fact. Is there any sensors that compensate the air flow value for the altitude related decrease in oxygen? Note that this is not a problem on excess oxygen engines such as diesels and gas turbines and why they do not loss power in the mountains like gasoline engines do. Remember the Reichstag ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 20:38:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA04085; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:32:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA04079; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:32:24 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 11 Sep 96 16:31:21 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17135; Wed, 11 Sep 96 16:35:38 EDT Message-Id: <9609112035.AA17135@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:35:57 +0000 Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: "Robert J. Harris" > Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude > increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the > percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books > before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent > of the density decrease. Okay. I'll bite. What's your source for this simple physics? (Remember Brownian motion and diffusion.) On cars with MAF sensors, it's automatic, since you're measuring the Mass of air and X mass of air needs Y mass of fuel. Speed density systems measure pressure and temperature to calculate the mass. --- David Parrish Carbs and aircraft injection are a whole 'nuther ballpark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 21:03:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA04154; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:56:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gwa.ericsson.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA04149; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:56:17 -0400 Received: from mr1.exu.ericsson.se (mr1.exu.ericsson.com [138.85.147.11]) by gwa.ericsson.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA09390 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:56:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.10.50]) by mr1.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.1/NAHUB-MR1.1) with ESMTP id PAA03463 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:56:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (eusmsrt@b01e25 [138.85.20.125]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14219 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:55:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Markus Strobl Received: (eusmsrt@localhost) by b01e25.exu.ericsson.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00816 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:55:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:55:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199609112055.PAA00816@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude > increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the > percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books > before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent > of the density decrease. The PCM in my '96 GM car has barometric pressure as an input, so it seems it's used. ------- Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 22:23:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA04298; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:15:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04293; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:15:51 -0400 Received: from tomlinsc.ix.netcom.com (det-mi3-01.ix.netcom.com [199.183.194.97]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25265 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:27:16 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960911212714.006b4874@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: tomlinsc@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:27:14 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Chuck Tomlinson Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Robert J. Harris wrote: > >Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude >increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the >percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books >before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent >of the density decrease. OK, I did a little research on the Web; everything I saw that described atmospheric composition said that the composition of the troposphere is roughly constant (up to ~10 km) because of thorough convective mixing. This makes sense to me, and since the highest roads I know of are lower than 5 km (16,000') and subject to winds that travel from valleys to peaks, I'd expect the air composition to be essentially the same as sea level (but less dense, of course). I'm not flaming you; I'm just curious about *why* the percentage of oxygen would change from sea level to 5 km, and if it does, by how much. Thanks. -- Chuck Tomlinson. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 22:44:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA04332; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:36:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04327; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:36:35 -0400 Received: from slip-73-11.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38002; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:36:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:36:33 -0500 Message-Id: <9609112236.AA38002@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude >> increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the >> percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books >> before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent >> of the density decrease. > >The PCM in my '96 GM car has barometric pressure as an input, so it >seems it's used. > seems to me that that's what BAP (barometric atmos. press.) as opposed to (or in addition to ??) MAP (manifold atmos. press.) does. also, supposedly EGO feedback accomplishes this within certain limits ?? tom cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 22:59:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA04421; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:53:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04416; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:53:41 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis0-p10.everett.net [205.134.193.74]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12918 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:51:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:51:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199609112251.PAA12918@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <01BB9FD0.3460E580@speed.demon.nl> References: <01BB9FD0.3460E580@speed.demon.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There was a thread a few months ago that covered this topic pretty well. I would have sworn that someone had mentioned knowledge of a sensor out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone else remember this or am I just losing it? Darrell??? do you remember this thread? -j- At [Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:11:37 +-200] Mark Pitts wrote: saxon> Nope... not just the puss that dies... Pb kills the o2 as well... which is a shame, cos I like lead... unless any body out there knows of an o2 that can cope with lead. saxon> saxon> Mark saxon> saxon> ---------- saxon> From: Mark Eidson[SMTP:mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com] saxon> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 7:21 PM saxon> To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu saxon> Subject: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas saxon> saxon> Is the O2 sensor affected by leaded gas or is it just the cat conv? me saxon> *************************************************************************** saxon> * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * saxon> * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * saxon> * Manager System Integration and * saxon> * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * saxon> * VLSI Technology, Inc. * saxon> * 8375 South River Parkway * saxon> * M/S 265 * saxon> * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * saxon> *************************************************************************** saxon> saxon> saxon> From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 23:43:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA04495; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:36:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fastlane.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA04490; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:35:57 -0400 From: jengel@fastlane.net Received: from fw46.fastlane.net (fw46.fastlane.net [206.42.189.46]) by fastlane.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29027 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:39:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609112339.SAA29027@fastlane.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:22:44 +600 Subject: Re: Playing... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mark, I'd thought about doing something of the sort. The reason I didn't is that a MAF from the junkyard is going to be a lot less expensive unless your attempt is pretty close on the first try (or unless your time isn't worth much). Didn't it take Edison 119 trys to make the first electric light? On the other hand, you could learn a LOT about MAF during the process. And don't they use platinum ($$$) wire? je > From: Mark Pitts > To: "'DIY EFI'" > Subject: Playing... > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:07 +-200 > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? > > Cos what I've seen of them thats about it. > > Plus a burn off circuit, and a bridge for doing the current measurement. > > Like, I think the Idea is: Keep the current constant, measure the voltage across to get that current, have another bit of wire as a reference, and an absolute air temp/ atmospheric pressure reading, > and away you go? > > > Yes... no ... who cares I got mine from the breakers....? > Any comments really? > > (I'll even take 'Dont be stupid' for this one!) > > Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 11 23:57:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA04544; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:52:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fastlane.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA04539; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:52:57 -0400 From: jengel@fastlane.net Received: from fw46.fastlane.net (fw46.fastlane.net [206.42.189.46]) by fastlane.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29957 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:56:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609112356.SAA29957@fastlane.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:39:43 +600 Subject: Re: more water injection Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dirk, The problem is keeping the water mixed with the gasoline. "Dry Gas" is generally an alcohol-based product that attaches the water and gas on a molecular level (I forget whether gas is polar or non-polar, but water is the opposite. Alcohol has a polar end and a non-polar end, so it attaches to both). I doubt that a significant amount of water mixed with gas would have any postitive long term effects on fuel injectors, though. je > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Dirk Wright > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: more water injection > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > > I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with > added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that > you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas > in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under > certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need > for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the > deal? > > > **************************************************************************** > Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov > "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 > "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House > **************************************************************************** > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 00:10:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA04574; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:05:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA04569; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:05:15 -0400 Received: from srmail.sr.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA080076737; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:32:18 -0700 Received: from tiger.sr.hp.com (65stang.sr.hp.com) by srmail.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA155776736; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:32:17 -0700 Received: by tiger.sr.hp.com (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA188086736; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:32:16 -0700 From: Craig Eid Message-Id: <199609111832.AA188086736@tiger.sr.hp.com> Subject: New subscriber To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:32:15 -0800 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1135 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello all - I'm new to the group so I'll give you my background and interests. I'm an electrical engineer working for HP in northern California. I've done a fair amount of digital and analog circuit design in the past - the last three years have been spent bringing new products out of the lab. I own two vintage Mustangs (a '65 coupe and '66 fastback) and have dropped a 1994 4.6 litre, 4 cam V8 into the '65 coupe. I've played around with the EEC-IV SEFI system a bit on the dyno and believe there are some hidden ponies waiting to be unleashed. However, the EEC-IV system is a bit awkward to work with. My interest is in getting more performance from the FI system (as always) at a reasonable cost. I don't want to pay the price for the ACCEL/DFI system but would like to help develop an SEFI system that's much more user friendly and easier to customize. I've searched the first 15 archives and haven't been able to find the FAQ. If it exists, could someone point me to it? Thanks, CRaig -- Craig Eid Manufacturing Development Engineer Microwave Instruments Division, Hewlett Packard e-mail address craige@sr.hp.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 00:24:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA04621; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:19:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hub.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA04616; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:19:39 -0400 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by hub.ubc.ca (8.6.12/1.14) with ESMTP id RAA13147 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:19:37 -0700 Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01478; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:19:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:19:04 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation In-Reply-To: <199609112055.PAA00816@b01e25.exu.ericsson.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Markus Strobl wrote: > > Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude > > increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the > > percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books > > before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent > > of the density decrease. > Ford's EEC-IV system (speed density) utilizes a MAP sensor that also doubles as a Barometric sensor. It switches to this other function at every start up and at wide open throttle. I don't know when this type of sensor started to be used but I would guess early '80's and definitly up and including 1987. The older EEC-III speed density systems used a separate Baro. sensor as well as a MAP. cheers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 01:32:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA04730; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 01:23:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA04725; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:23:06 -0400 Received: from localhost by moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.3) with SMTP id VAA03585; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:23:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker X-Sender: fparker@moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Johnny cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <199609112251.PAA12918@post.everett.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > There was a thread a few months ago that covered this topic pretty well. > I would have sworn that someone had mentioned knowledge of a sensor > out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched > through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone > else remember this or am I just losing it? > > Darrell??? do you remember this thread? > > -j- All sensors are affected by lead but the Bosch LSM-11 sensor used in the Bosch LA-2 a/f meter is less affected by lead. Sheet shows after 500 hours exposure to 0.5 gm/gal , the sensor shows <0.02 lambda change. That is not alot of lead, but 500 is lotsa hours. Bosch says they can be renewed if not too dirty by running in unleaded engine for awhile. Sensor costs about $160 so cheap 3 wires may be cheaper in long run. Frank Parker From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 04:21:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA05003; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 04:09:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04997; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:09:11 -0400 Received: from pmeU14.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU14.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.15]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id VAA01479 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609120409.VAA01479@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:51 PM 9/11/96 -0700, you wrote: >There was a thread a few months ago that covered this topic pretty well. >I would have sworn that someone had mentioned knowledge of a sensor >out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched >through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone >else remember this or am I just losing it? > >Darrell??? do you remember this thread? Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up, since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't seen around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... BTW, I think you're like me, have an excellent memory, but short... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 04:21:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA04998; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 04:09:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04991; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:09:09 -0400 Received: from pmeU14.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU14.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.15]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id VAA00071 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609120409.VAA00071@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:24 AM 9/11/96 -0700, RJH wrote: >>From what I read and hear, the Air Flow sensor used in production >EFI's at best compensate for temp and density changes in the >intake air mass. Then the oxygen sensor is used to fine tune >the mixture to a rich power setting - I.E. no uncombined oxygen >Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude Most production systems use barometric compensation in one form or another. Some systems take a baro reading from the MAP sensor after the ignition key is turned on, but before the engine starts, and store this as a reference. This can also be updated at WOT, since manifold pressure is essentially = baro pressure at this point (with some flow related pressure drop). Some systems have a separate baro sensor in addition to MAP. Some MAPs are not absolute sensors at all, but differential sensors, referenced on one side to atmospheric, so as the baro changes, the MAP reference point changes as well. Some compensation is possible with the fuel pressure regulator, since it is usually referenced to manifold pressure and thus atmospheric indirectly. And, some systems have none at all. Remember that most carbs have no baro comp, and they worked for the last 100 years or so... As you mentioned, the O2 sensor can compensate somewhat at steady state conditions. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 05:04:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA05139; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 04:57:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA05134; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:57:14 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p5.everett.net [205.134.193.101]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA16987 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:54:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:54:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199609120454.VAA16987@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: References: <199609112251.PAA12918@post.everett.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The cheapy's add up pretty quick. I have been able to get unreliable sensor output in a matter of a few hours when running with avgas. Even the 100LL screws them up fairly quickly. Not totally shot, but incorrect and inconsistent enough to be rendered useless for closed loop.I guess it won't matter after avgas is made leadless... but until then I guess there's always the trim pot on the dash. ;-) -j- At [Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:23:02 -0400 (EDT)] Frank F Parker wrote: fparker> All sensors are affected by lead but the Bosch LSM-11 sensor used in fparker> the Bosch LA-2 a/f meter is less affected by lead. Sheet shows after fparker> 500 hours exposure to 0.5 gm/gal , the sensor shows <0.02 lambda change. fparker> That is not alot of lead, but 500 is lotsa hours. Bosch says they can fparker> be renewed if not too dirty by running in unleaded engine for awhile. fparker> Sensor costs about $160 so cheap 3 wires may be cheaper in long run. fparker> fparker> Frank Parker fparker> fparker> From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 07:05:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA05391; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:56:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA05386; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 02:55:58 -0400 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA22279; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 02:55:57 -0400 Date: 12 Sep 96 02:54:09 EDT From: Jim Steck <72614.557@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY-EFI digest Subject: More Water Injection Message-ID: <960912065408_72614.557_IHD55-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water >> injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why >> bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good >> thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed >> in with the gas in the tank? > >Gasoline is lighter than water, and hence "floats" on top of it. You >fuel tank pick-up is located in the bottom of the tank. You add water to >the tank and all you'll be injecting into the engine is water. If you read Ricardo experiments with water injection he also states that water dissolved in the fuel . . . with some mutual solvent like acetone . . . is even more effective than water injection. Jim Steck AutoComponenti From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 08:07:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA05460; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:56:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA05453; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:56:55 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22658; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:56:51 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA090.8DEBDB80@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:55:39 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA090.8DEBDB80@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'jengel@fastlane.net'" Subject: RE: Playing... Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:43:34 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for the note on Platinum, if you go to your local hobby store, = you will find they sell glow plugs, for model airplane engines, with a = small coil of .... You guessed it Platinum wire, as the element (and = they survive for about 40 hours running red to white hot in the = combustion chamber.. so the wire must be ok).. If I cant get enough, il = phone a manufacturer, and see if they have any off cuts, ends of reels = etc. PS Plugs are only a couple of bucks each. Mark ;-) ---------- From: jengel@fastlane.net[SMTP:jengel@fastlane.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 1996 8:23 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Playing... Mark, I'd thought about doing something of the sort. The reason I didn't=20 is that a MAF from the junkyard is going to be a lot less expensive unless your attempt is pretty close on the first try (or unless your time isn't worth much). Didn't it take Edison 119 trys to make the first electric light? On the other hand, you could learn a LOT about MAF during the=20 process. And don't they use platinum ($$$) wire? je > From: Mark Pitts > To: "'DIY EFI'" > Subject: Playing... > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:14:07 +-200 > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some = nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? >=20 > Cos what I've seen of them thats about it. >=20 > Plus a burn off circuit, and a bridge for doing the current = measurement. >=20 > Like, I think the Idea is: Keep the current constant, measure the = voltage across to get that current, have another bit of wire as a = reference, and an absolute air temp/ atmospheric pressure reading, > and away you go? >=20 >=20 > Yes... no ... who cares I got mine from the breakers....? > Any comments really? >=20 > (I'll even take 'Dont be stupid' for this one!) >=20 > Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 08:07:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA05465; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:57:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA05459; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:56:57 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22662; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:56:55 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA090.9035CB80@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:55:43 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA090.9035CB80@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'David M Parrish'" Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:51:19 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to = sea level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out = at altitude. Sorry to go back to my model airplanes, but for the glider tugs (which = ran 120cc petrol engines, with electronic ignition) we had to solder an = arm on the end of the needle so that we could fit a servo and adjust = mixture in flight, otherwise we lost so much power, we couldnt pull the = glider any higher. And we are only talking 5000' Like a mile or so up! At ground level the tugs would climb out at about 45 degrees, with = anything on the back.. Mark ---------- From: David M Parrish[SMTP:dmp@bmesun1.MCG.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 1996 6:36 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation > From: "Robert J. Harris" > Does anyone do any altitude compensation? Because, as altitude > increases, not only does the air mass density decrease, but the > percentage of oxygen decreases (simple physics - check books > before questioning or flaming) and the oxygen decrease is independent > of the density decrease. =20 Okay. I'll bite. What's your source for this simple physics?=20 (Remember Brownian motion and diffusion.) On cars with MAF sensors, it's automatic, since you're measuring=20 the Mass of air and X mass of air needs Y mass of fuel. Speed density systems measure pressure and temperature to calculate=20 the mass. --- David Parrish Carbs and aircraft injection are a whole 'nuther ballpark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 08:27:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA05510; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:18:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA05505; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 04:18:42 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:20 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 12 Sep 96 09:18:35 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 12 Sep 96 09:18:13 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:09 GMT0BST Subject: EFI332 home page X-Confirm-Reading-To: "M HILL" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. Martin From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 10:23:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA05679; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:14:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA05674; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:14:11 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9DOCAQX1S00009K@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:11:57 CDT Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:01:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Altitude Compensation To: diy_efi Message-id: <298242.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> From what I read and hear, the Air Flow sensor used in production -> EFI's at best compensate for temp and density changes in the Speaking of which, does anyone have a voltage/CFM or voltage/grams-min curve for any of the Ford MAFs? I've been tinkering with one off a 5.0 Mustang. The hot-wire MAF is sensitive enough for the voltmeter to indicate when someone walks by the bench, but it's apparently very nonlinear. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 10:23:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA05672; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:13:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA05667; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:13:19 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9DOB87MWW00009K@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:11:06 CDT Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:46:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: water injection To: diy_efi Message-id: <298233.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> Caterpillar is supposedly working with a guy named Gunnerman to -> develop this "wonder fuel". I'll believe it when I see it. There is actually a fairly decent body of information on water emulsion fuels going back to the 1950s. Several SAE papers and some theses, anyway. Basically, the emulsions seem to have a small but favorable cost/power ratio compared to straight fuel - that is, if you had a 25% water emulsion, your power output would not drop a full 25%. Most emulsions are made by forcing the fuel and water through a fine mesh under pressure, where they will stay in emulsion for a few minutes, long enough to be carbureted or injected, anyway. It *does* work, though it's not really worth all the hassle, like turbo-compound engines. I don't know of any current or planned real world applications, though it'd likely be limited to stationary or marine stuff. At the other extreme you have the people who claim to have some sort of solvent that will let you mix gas and water together and get more power than straight gas alone, cleaner teeth, fresher breath, and as much studliness as you can handle. Various alcohols will let you do it, but you won't get that kind of results. Run away, run away.... ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 10:23:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA05690; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:17:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA05685; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:17:35 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.206]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06093; Thu, 12 Sep 96 12:11:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 12:11:38 +0200 Message-Id: <9609121011.AA06093@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: Re: EFI332 home page Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello Martin try this: http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ >Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have >been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. > >Martin > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 12:29:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA05874; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:21:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA05869; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:21:43 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:20:38 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17491; Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:20:49 EDT Message-Id: <9609121220.AA17491@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:21:25 +0000 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: Mark Pitts > The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at altitude. > Sorry to go back to my model airplanes, but for the glider tugs (which ran 120cc petrol engines, with electronic ignition) we had to solder an arm on the end of the needle so that we could fit a ser > o and adjust mixture in flight, otherwise we lost so much power, we couldnt pull the glider any higher. And we are only talking 5000' Like a mile or so up! > At ground level the tugs would climb out at about 45 degrees, with anything on the back.. No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. (I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also richen with altitude. --- David Parrish Future aviator. As soon as I finish building my plane. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 12:35:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA05899; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:32:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA05894; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:32:13 -0400 Received: from slip-75-9.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28556; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:32:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:32:10 -0500 Message-Id: <9609121232.AA28556@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: MAP sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose a parts house), and how does it work? I have looked in recent posts and found that oOn Tue, 03 Sep 1996, Todd Knighton wrote: Motorola has a lot of data sheets on their MPX4250A, etc. line of pressure transducers we've been using. (Todd also noted in another post that he used a GM sensor that had an AC output.) On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, James Weiler wrote: Ford's EEC-IV system (speed density) utilizes a MAP sensor that also doubles as a Barometric sensor. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 12:44:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA05919; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:39:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA05914; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:39:37 -0400 Received: from slip-75-9.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28589; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:39:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:39:35 -0500 Message-Id: <9609121239.AA28589@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: New subscriber Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hello all - I'm new to the group [ snip ] >Craig Eid >e-mail address OR ?? Craig, I tried 'both' e-mail addresses and was unsuccesful with either. Tell me how to reach you and I'll send you some stuff. Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 13:38:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA06143; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:29:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06138; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:29:47 -0400 Received: from mogate.sps.mot.com by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA01735 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 12 Sep 96 06:29:41 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com by mogate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA18249 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 12 Sep 96 06:29:40 MST Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA17368; Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:29:39 -0500 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12294; Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:43:55 CDT Received: from gocart.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA13335 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:30:49 -0500 From: Matt Sale Received: by gocart.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id JAA20068 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:30:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199609121330.JAA20068@gocart.mot.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: MAP sensor To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:30:48 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9609121232.AA28556@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> from "tom cloud" at Sep 12, 96 07:32:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 718 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? > Sorry for the advertisement but: Try the junkyards. Most (All??) GM MAP sensors are supplied by DE. I believe the late model Toyota's use our Gen-2 sensor, which is much smaller than the old one. Sorry, don't have the pinout handy. --- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@holli.com http://www.holli.com/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.656@103MPH using cave-man technology). All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 14:24:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA06385; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:15:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06380; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:15:49 -0400 Received: from slip-75-9.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38012; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9609121415.AA38012@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, dibble@hagar.ph.utexas.edu From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>From: Mark Pitts > >> The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at altitude. [ SNIP ] > >No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to >sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly >identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not >alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. > >Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by >throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered >as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. > >(I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of >air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also >richen with altitude. > >--- >David Parrish what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- self) can survive at (oops, poor english). The term "lean out" in the apps above really means to supply less fuel. This is necessary since the air is less dense and therefore less O2. Seems to me you're trying to hold the A/F ratio essentially the same -- or at least know what it is to determine richer / leaner. So, makes sense to me that you always want to know how much O2 there is so you'll know how much petrol to mix with it. The velocity of the air flow (eg. carb) doesn't tell you this. So, when you go from sea level to the mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a few milliseconds after the fact) whether the mixture was near stoich or not), though it doesn't give direct O2 availability data either. Now, it's been a long time since my physics, and I have to go on what little reasoning powers I have left, but it seems to me that the quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, he could interpolate from TPS and the differential of BAP and MAP (i.e. the absolute pressure on the throttle opening). Then, assuming atmos pressure doesn't change very quickly, one's system could 'remember' the EGO's feedback reference point of stoich and extrapolate lean / rich from there. Now, if the ratio of O2 in the atmosphere really did change at different altitudes (hard to imagine) we would really be screwed. But, what do I know?? (It's been said before.) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 14:45:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA06445; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:39:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ding.mindspring.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06440; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:39:12 -0400 Received: (from brads@localhost) by ding.mindspring.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA22286 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:39:14 -0400 From: Brad Sheridan Message-Id: <199609121439.KAA22286@ding.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: EFI332 home page To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:39:14 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9609121011.AA06093@netline.totobit.it> from "fontana pasquale" at Sep 12, 96 12:11:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 329 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Hello Martin > > try this: > http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ That gives me the same result as the last location. When I do a traceroute, it seems to make it all the way to the swin.edu.au, and then dies as soon as it gets there. This is the same traceroute result I got with the last address as well. Brad From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 15:55:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA07035; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:46:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07030; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:46:09 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 12 Sep 96 11:45:05 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17585; Thu, 12 Sep 96 11:49:24 EDT Message-Id: <9609121549.AA17585@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:50:03 +0000 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) > mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) > doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a Actually, MAP can. MAP is an absolute pressure, so as you go up, the manafold pressure will also drop without changing the throttle. Combine MAP with temperature and the engine's volumetric efficiency, you can get a pretty good idea about the actual mass flow of air. > quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume > of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, MAF will do it by itself. How much fuel you squirt is based squarely on the mass of oxygen in the cylinder and that's exactly what a MAF tells you. MAP+temp+VE+fancy math gives you about the same thing. --- David Parrish I don't even want to think about humidity... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 16:19:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA07095; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:12:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07090; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:12:48 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA24832 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32383570.6B44@net-quest.com> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:08:16 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAP sensor References: <9609121232.AA28556@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, Newark Electronics has the Motorola Sensors. They're not to be put in the engine compartment. They're not ruggedized. We've been putting them inside the Motronics unit inside the car and they've worked well. the MPX4250A is a 2.5 bar absolute sensor, so it's good to about 20psi and absolute vacuum. They make a MPX4100A, I think that's the number, for normally aspirated vehicles, never ordered that one. These are all temperature trimmed and compensated sensors so they aren't affected by different temps like most MAPs are. Have just played with GM's and Honda's MAPs and have just guessed at what's really going on, no data sheets available. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering tom cloud wrote: > > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? > > I have looked in recent posts and found that oOn Tue, 03 Sep 1996, Todd > Knighton wrote: Motorola has a lot of data sheets > on their MPX4250A, etc. line of pressure transducers we've been using. > (Todd also noted in another post that he used a GM sensor that had an > AC output.) > > On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, James Weiler wrote: Ford's EEC-IV > system (speed density) utilizes a MAP sensor that also doubles as a > Barometric sensor. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 16:19:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA07102; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:13:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07097; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:13:46 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:16:22 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Injector Flow Variation Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:16 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369602714-23636463@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: tom cloud > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: Injector Flow Variation > Date: Monday, September 09, 1996 6:44 AM > All things mechanical - there will be a flow variant - hopefully small. Bad things like detonation events occur first in the poorest mixture quality cylinder, thus the whole engine is limited by the weakest cylinder. SFI with only an oxygen sensor feedback loop adjusts based on an all cylinder composite oxygen reading. The next step is to use a quality industrial temperature measuring device (thermocouple, RTD's) to measure Exhaust Gas Temp at each individual port, and wire them so that rather than showing absolute temperature, the device's would show temperature differential's between cylinders. All things being closely approximate - (e.g. cylinder volume, port air flow, cooling capacity, etc.) the proximate cause of Exhaust Gas Temperature variation will be mixture variations induced by injector flow variations. Using the differential EGT data, each cylinders mixture could have corrections applied thereby finely tuning out all differences between cylinders and making more power and economy by operating closer to detonation limits without increased risk. Course, now I'll have to prove that EGT temperature is a dependent variable based on combustion mixture - ignore 80 years of A/C's watching EGT when adjusting mixtures - but oh well From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 16:48:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA07176; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:42:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07171; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:42:46 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA26067 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32383C78.1419@net-quest.com> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:38:16 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation References: <9609121415.AA38012@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I do remember from some science class, way back in school, that the composition of the atmosphere does change, but as someone said earlier in this thread, minimally at low altitudes, where normal humans reside. And also in the other thread, the mechanical injection systems I've seen on airplanes, do have barometric compensation built in. Some cheaper systems on smaller planes might not, thus the pull lever for mixture trim. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 16:51:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA07188; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:47:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07183; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:47 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA26261 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32383DA4.155C@net-quest.com> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:43:16 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head References: <2F2AA95CE9@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > Hi head builders, > because of the big resonance for the radial- diametral head of > "Apfelbeck", I put the GIF images on the web. > http://www.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de/~hiha/gif/ Interesting, but I saw an even more interesting design at the SEMA show last year. It incorporated what looked like two camshafts, but they were also the ports and valves as well. They were basically ball valves, that opened and closed the port from the head, rotating at 1/4 crank speed I think. The shape of the opening in the ball valve determined the valve events. They had these things on a few 4 valve mercedes engines and had them passing emmissions, but with a 20% increase in overall power. The torque curves looked great as well. The only scary thing was the seat. Is was a spring loaded seat, for a good seal from the combustion chamber that rode on the rotary ball valve thingy. I could definately see those things getting torn up. But they "Said" that they had already run them in the 50,000 and 100,000 mile EPA durability tests and "got by" Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 17:51:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA07344; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:45:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA07336; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:45:05 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id KAA20226 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:44:58 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id KAA16148 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:44:57 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id KAA18888 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:52:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:52:42 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960912105055.39270ae2@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I thought that MAF stands for mass air flow, and that it measures the mass of the air volume passing thru it, not just the volume. The mass of the air is depends on many things, one of which is atmospheric pressure. If the O2 to other components in the air being measured is realitively the same at different atmospheric pressures the MAF value should compensate for altitude changes. But I'm just a novice at this stuff. me At 09:15 AM 9/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>From: Mark Pitts >> >>> The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea >level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at >altitude. > > [ SNIP ] >> >>No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to >>sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly >>identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not >>alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. >> >>Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by >>throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered >>as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. >> >>(I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of >>air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also >>richen with altitude. >> >>--- >>David Parrish > >what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are >the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- >self) can survive at (oops, poor english). > >The term "lean out" in the apps above really means to supply less fuel. >This is necessary since the air is less dense and therefore less O2. >Seems to me you're trying to hold the A/F ratio essentially the same -- >or at least know what it is to determine richer / leaner. So, makes >sense to me that you always want to know how much O2 there is so you'll >know how much petrol to mix with it. The velocity of the air flow >(eg. carb) doesn't tell you this. So, when you go from sea level to the >mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) >doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a >few milliseconds after the fact) whether the mixture was near stoich or >not), though it doesn't give direct O2 availability data either. > >Now, it's been a long time since my physics, and I have to go on >what little reasoning powers I have left, but it seems to me that the >quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume >of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, >he could interpolate from TPS and the differential of BAP and MAP (i.e. >the absolute pressure on the throttle opening). Then, assuming atmos >pressure doesn't change very quickly, one's system could 'remember' the >EGO's feedback reference point of stoich and extrapolate lean / rich >from there. > >Now, if the ratio of O2 in the atmosphere really did change at different >altitudes (hard to imagine) we would really be screwed. > >But, what do I know?? (It's been said before.) > >Tom > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 18:04:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA07391; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:57:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA07385; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:24 -0400 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04787 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199609121757.NAA04787@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -------- |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone |>else remember this or am I just losing it? |> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? | |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up, |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't seen |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 20:18:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA09012; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:10:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA09007; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:10:34 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA24973; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:13:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:13:06 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: diesel injector break pressure To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9609100133.AA10989@wagner.mtco.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi on VW diesels, the injectors typically break around 170 bar (~2500 psi) >>>> >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? >>>> >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) >>>> > >>>> Yes: >>>> >>>> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the >>>> injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam >>>> shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric >>>> solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector >>>> 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the >>>> fuel tank. >>> >>>Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >>>really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. >>> >>>Craig. >>> >>> >>Yes, the pressure is that high. Some times it can get as high as 35000. >> >>David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com >>Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 >>Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 >>89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 >>74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | >>Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | >> -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 12 21:40:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA09127; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:34:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA09122; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:33:56 -0400 Received: from i2-152.islandnet.com [198.53.172.152] by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1) with smtp id m0v1JNx-000VvhC for ; Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:33 PDT Message-Id: Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:33 PDT X-Sender: iii@mail.islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) Subject: How to join the group? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I am interested in joining this mail group. How do I do this? I'm working on a small controller targeted to the automotive and robotics industries (HC16 based). Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 03:42:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA09665; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:41:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA09660; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:41:14 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p3.everett.net [205.134.193.99]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA28259 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:39:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:39:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199609130339.UAA28259@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <199609121757.NAA04787@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> References: <199609121757.NAA04787@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to have a problem connecting to it. -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400] John S Gwynne wrote: jsg> -------- jsg> jsg> |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched jsg> |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone jsg> |>else remember this or am I just losing it? jsg> |> jsg> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? jsg> | jsg> |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up, jsg> |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't seen jsg> |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor jsg> |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I jsg> |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... jsg> |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... jsg> jsg> Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable jsg> through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the jsg> whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search jsg> engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) jsg> jsg> John S Gwynne jsg> Gwynne.1@osu.edu jsg> _______________________________________________________________________________ jsg> T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y jsg> ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA jsg> Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 jsg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jsg> jsg> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 03:42:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA09655; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:36:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA09650; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:36:50 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p3.everett.net [205.134.193.99]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA28190 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:34:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:34:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199609130334.UAA28190@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re: How to join the group? In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You have been added to the list... I hope your mailbox can handle it. ;-) -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:33 PDT] iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) wrote: iii> Hi, iii> iii> I am interested in joining this mail group. How do I do this? iii> iii> I'm working on a small controller targeted to the automotive and robotics iii> industries (HC16 based). iii> iii> Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | iii> WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | iii> 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | iii> Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | iii> Canada | iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 04:03:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA09700; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:58:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA09695; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:58:53 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p14.everett.net [205.134.193.110]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA28412 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:56:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:56:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199609130356.UAA28412@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EFI332 home page In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Here's what I get: Description: Microsoft Windows Sockets Version 1.1. System Status: Running on Windows 95. Version: 0101 0101 Max Sockets: 256 Local Hostname: allnight Local Address: 205.134.193.99 Official Name: www.iris.swin.edu.au IP Address: 136.186.89.23 PING www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23): 50 data bytes timed out timed out timed out PING Statistics for www.iris.swin.edu.au 3 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss TraceRoute www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23) timed out 1 177 177 205.134.193.253 cis0.everett.net 2 181 4 205.134.193.254 cis1.everett.net 3 * * timed out 4 208 27 204.71.144.33 cisco-1.nwrain.net 5 203 -5 204.70.52.17 border1-serial2-2.Seattle.mci.net 6 337 134 204.70.2.145 core1-fddi-0.Seattle.mci.net 7 * * timed out 8 240 -97 204.70.3.162 border2-fddi0-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net 9 219 -21 204.70.33.10 timed out 10 420 201 204.70.204.6 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net 11 428 8 139.130.249.226 timed out 12 470 42 139.130.249.214 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net 13 460 -10 139.130.239.228 vic.gw.au 14 431 -29 139.130.239.58 national.gw.au 15 434 3 139.130.38.2 vic2.gw.au 16 455 21 203.21.131.14 nis-rmi-swi.vrn.EDU.AU 17 467 12 203.21.131.58 swinburne-gw.vrn.EDU.AU 18 449 -18 136.186.1.60 tafe-e2.gw.swin.edu.au 19 * * timed out 20 * * timed out 21 * * timed out 22 * * timed out 23 * * timed out 24 * * timed out 25 * * timed out 26 * * timed out 27 * * timed out 28 * * timed out 29 * * timed out 30 * * timed out not reached I have never been able to connect to the "new" site. Anybody down under got a clue on this one? -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:09 GMT0BST] M HILL wrote: EAXMJHI> Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have EAXMJHI> been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. EAXMJHI> EAXMJHI> Martin EAXMJHI> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 05:08:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA09828; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 05:05:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09823; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:05:24 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA05590; Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:04:35 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA842645826 Fri, 13 Sep 96 13:17:06 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 13:17:06 Message-Id: <9608138426.AA842645826@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[5]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Me too, I can get to it (I think) but it says there is nothing there. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 1:07 PM That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to have a problem connecting to it. -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400] John S Gwynne wrote: jsg> -------- jsg> jsg> |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched jsg> |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone jsg> |>else remember this or am I just losing it? jsg> |> jsg> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? jsg> | jsg> |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up , jsg> |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't see n jsg> |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor jsg> |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I jsg> |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... jsg> |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... jsg> jsg> Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable jsg> through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the jsg> whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search jsg> engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) jsg> jsg> John S Gwynne jsg> Gwynne.1@osu.edu jsg> ____________________________________________________________________________ ___ jsg> T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y jsg> ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA jsg> Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 jsg> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- jsg> jsg> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 05:08:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA09836; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 05:06:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09831; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:06:31 -0400 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA07161 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:06:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199609130506.BAA07161@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Subject: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:06:29 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -------- |That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to |have a problem connecting to it. Are we talking about the same web site? http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not Andrew's site. Andrew tried to mirror his site here, but apparently he has the same problem we have going the other way. If you really can not ftp or telnet to OSU's efi332, I would like to know about it. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 05:41:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA09888; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 05:38:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.interlog.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09883; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:38:45 -0400 Received: from gold.interlog.com (root@gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id BAA21714 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acazin.interlog.com (acazin.interlog.com [205.206.75.66]) by gold.interlog.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id BAA27884 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:38:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199609130538.BAA27884@gold.interlog.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: acazin@interlog.com To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:39:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MAP sensor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? The Ford EEC-IV MAP sensor is a good one. It is a "smart" sensor, with on-board signal processing and it has digital output, a "near" perfect square wave (49-51 % duty cycle). It is rugged and it lives well in the engine compartment and a long vacuum hose from the intake manifold does not bother it. Square wave output makes it easy to process. Output frequency is from about 159 Hz at 0 in. vacuum (key ON, engine OFF or wide open throttle, same as baro pressure output) to around 102 Hz at 21 in. vacuum (idle). Frequency vs. vacuum output is pretty linear for a good sensor. Alex Cazin Alzec Automotive Enginnering Ltd. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 05:47:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA09915; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 05:47:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09910; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:47:32 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA06125; Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:46:47 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA842648447 Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:00:47 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:00:47 Message-Id: <9608138426.AA842648447@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: EFI332 home page Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi After checking with our admin manager, we can reach Swin.edu, but we don't get a reply. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: EFI332 home page Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 1:43 PM Here's what I get: Description: Microsoft Windows Sockets Version 1.1. System Status: Running on Windows 95. Version: 0101 0101 Max Sockets: 256 Local Hostname: allnight Local Address: 205.134.193.99 Official Name: www.iris.swin.edu.au IP Address: 136.186.89.23 PING www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23): 50 data bytes timed out timed out timed out PING Statistics for www.iris.swin.edu.au 3 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss TraceRoute www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23) timed out 1 177 177 205.134.193.253 cis0.everett.net 2 181 4 205.134.193.254 cis1.everett.net 3 * * timed out 4 208 27 204.71.144.33 cisco-1.nwrain.net 5 203 -5 204.70.52.17 border1-serial2-2.Seattle.mci.net 6 337 134 204.70.2.145 core1-fddi-0.Seattle.mci.net 7 * * timed out 8 240 -97 204.70.3.162 border2-fddi0-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net 9 219 -21 204.70.33.10 timed out 10 420 201 204.70.204.6 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net 11 428 8 139.130.249.226 timed out 12 470 42 139.130.249.214 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net 13 460 -10 139.130.239.228 vic.gw.au 14 431 -29 139.130.239.58 national.gw.au 15 434 3 139.130.38.2 vic2.gw.au 16 455 21 203.21.131.14 nis-rmi-swi.vrn.EDU.AU 17 467 12 203.21.131.58 swinburne-gw.vrn.EDU.AU 18 449 -18 136.186.1.60 tafe-e2.gw.swin.edu.au 19 * * timed out 20 * * timed out 21 * * timed out 22 * * timed out 23 * * timed out 24 * * timed out 25 * * timed out 26 * * timed out 27 * * timed out 28 * * timed out 29 * * timed out 30 * * timed out not reached I have never been able to connect to the "new" site. Anybody down under got a clue on this one? -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:09 GMT0BST] M HILL wrote: EAXMJHI> Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have EAXMJHI> been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. EAXMJHI> EAXMJHI> Martin EAXMJHI> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 06:20:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA09957; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 06:17:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA09952; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:17:27 -0400 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id IAA08651; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:17:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sputnic.jrt.se(192.71.169.4) by valle.nexus.se via smap (V3.1.1) id xma008647; Fri, 13 Sep 96 08:17:05 +0200 Received: (from jr@localhost) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA00855 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:01:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:01:46 +0100 From: Johan Rodling Message-Id: <199609130701.IAA00855@sputnic.jrt.se> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Volumetric efficiency X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can some give me a hint about VE, what it is and how to calculate it. Since it's involved in some calculations regarding MAF etc, I just need to know. Thank's for all the help /JR Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR '74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 07:00:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA10001; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 06:56:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA09996; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:56:53 -0400 Received: by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA28274; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:56:53 -0400 Date: 13 Sep 96 02:55:38 EDT From: Jim Steck <72614.557@CompuServe.COM> To: DIY-EFI digest Subject: water injection Message-ID: <960913065538_72614.557_IHD69-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up >>linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, >> + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. >> >>Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of >>fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. > So if I went out to my car and fed my 455ci engine a 50/50 mix of water/ > fuel I'd get the same power? I have a hard time believing this at full throttle > plus I cant afford that much water :(, but will it work for part throttle, > ie cruising, speeds? I think I can get around the mineral buildups with > a weekly trip to the track w/ high octane gas..... If you're remembering Ricardo's curves, you've got the power part right, but manifold pressure was a variable in his experiment. The curve plotted power at the manifold pressure that resulted in the onset of detonation. First he increased the amount of excess fuel to the point of maximum usefulness, then he started adding water and found that he could reduce the amount of excess fuel (beyond stoicometric) roughly equal to the amount of water that was added without affecting the results . . . so by increasing the amount of water, he was able to increase the manifold pressure . . . which increased horsepower. It is not the injection of water that increased horsepower, but the increased resistance to detonation which allowed higher manifold pressures to be used. The full description of his results can be found in the fourth edition of Sir Henry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" pages 165-171. (only in the fourth edition) Jim Steck AutoComponenti From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 07:24:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA10040; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:21:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA10035; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:21:25 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA07055; Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:20:38 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA842653607 Fri, 13 Sep 96 15:26:47 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 15:26:47 Message-Id: <9608138426.AA842653607@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry John, clarification. It is Andrew's site that is un-reachable, yours works fine. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 2:36 PM -------- |That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to |have a problem connecting to it. Are we talking about the same web site? http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not Andrew's site. Andrew tried to mirror his site here, but apparently he has the same problem we have going the other way. If you really can not ftp or telnet to OSU's efi332, I would like to know about it. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 07:25:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA10049; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:23:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA10044; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:23:35 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Fri, 13 Sep 96 09:23:20 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Fri, 13 Sep 96 9:23:20 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Fri, 13 Sep 96 9:23:02 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:23:00 MET Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <5F228016EC@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Todd, > It incorporated what looked like two camshafts, but they were also the > ports and valves as well. > They were basically ball valves, that opened and closed the port from > the head, rotating at 1/4 crank speed I think. The shape of the opening > in the ball valve determined the valve events. > They had these things on a few 4 valve mercedes engines and had them > passing emmissions, but with a 20% increase in overall power. The > torque curves looked great as well. > The only scary thing was the seat. Is was a spring loaded seat, for a > good seal from the combustion chamber that rode on the rotary ball valve > thingy. I could definately see those things getting torn up. But they > "Said" that they had already run them in the 50,000 and 100,000 mile EPA > durability tests and "got by" Alternative valve systems will return in near future, but I won't be the one to develop them. There were many reliable things developed in WW2. The Noratlas had a 14cyl. radial with disc-valves (?). Here in germany car industry will be the last to change anything. They are too conservative. Have a look Zoche aerodiesel web page: http://193.26.97.194 Maybe this will be the future of car diesel also! Regards Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 12:32:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA10494; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:27:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10489; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:27:23 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9F79OHH7K00009K@UALR.EDU>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:25:03 CDT Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:17:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head To: diy_efi Message-id: <298651.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> Have a look Zoche aerodiesel web page: -> http://193.26.97.194 Maybe this will be the future of car diesel -> also! I have some a 1940s engineering book which makes a strong case for the aviation Diesel. Higher efficiency, Diesel fuel lighter than avgas, less chance of fire in crash situations, etc. It probably would have happened, at least for civilian aircraft, if not for the turboprop and turbojet engines, which used basically the same fuel and were smaller and more reliable than piston engines. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 12:52:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA10718; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:49:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10713; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:49:35 -0400 Received: from slip-49-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42101; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:49:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:49:32 -0500 Message-Id: <9609131249.AA42101@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, dibble@hagar.ph.utexas.edu From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: >> what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are >> the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- >> self) can survive at (oops, poor english). And on the same day, James Weiler replied: >Absolutely ! and don't let anyone else tell you any different ! It's the >partial presures of each gas constituent that decrease with higher >altitude but the ratios of the gases stay the same. If they were >different how would it stay that way over time?? There is a law called >Brownian motion that dictates that all molecules will proceed from a >place of high concentration to a place of low concentration until they >are equally distributed. This is our atmosphere and it's had lots of >time to equilibrate. To which, I reply replied "And I thought Brownian movement was when those little girls are selling cookies." tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 13:23:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA10807; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:20:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA10799; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:19:58 -0400 Received: from slip-49-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52289; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:19:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:19:55 -0500 Message-Id: <9609131319.AA52289@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: MAP sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, >> how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose >> a parts house), and how does it work? Alex Cazin replied: >The Ford EEC-IV MAP sensor is a good one. It is a "smart" sensor, >with on-board signal processing and it has digital output, a "near" >perfect square wave (49-51 % duty cycle). It is rugged and it lives >well in the engine compartment and a long vacuum hose from the >intake manifold does not bother it. > >Square wave output makes it easy to process. Output frequency is from >about 159 Hz at 0 in. vacuum (key ON, engine OFF or wide open >throttle, same as baro pressure output) to around 102 Hz at 21 in. >vacuum (idle). > >Frequency vs. vacuum output is pretty linear for a good sensor. > Thanks, Alex. Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. To followers of the thread, Todd Knighton recently posted: "Newark Electronics has the Motorola Sensors. They're not to be put in "the engine compartment. They're not ruggedized. We've been putting "them inside the Motronics unit inside the car and they've worked well. "the MPX4250A is a 2.5 bar absolute sensor, so it's good to about 20psi "and absolute vacuum. They make a MPX4100A, I think that's the number, "for normally aspirated vehicles, never ordered that one. These are all "temperature trimmed and compensated sensors so they aren't affected by "different temps like most MAPs are." The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, (http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog for about $26. They have a linear voltage output (not freq), are small and have different methods for connecting them to the pressure source to be measured (probably via a hose). Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? The analog output might be ideal for me to augment the control on the Holley aftermarket system I already have. For a digital system, will simply A-D. Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 13:44:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA11087; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:41:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11082; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:41:32 -0400 Received: from slip-49-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42202; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:41:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:41:30 -0500 Message-Id: <9609131341.AA42202@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: MAP sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >How does it work: To be honest I don't understand the chemistry of how a >signal is generated proportional to the pressure that is exerted on the >sensor. I do know that the MAP output is in Hz Pressure sensors are commonly made using a diaphragm as one plate of a capacitor -- when pressure is exerted on it, the capacitance changes. The easiest way to read capacitance is to make it part of an L-C tank or an R-C network in an oscillator. Then, changes in capacitance cause a change in the frequency of oscillation, which can be directly related to the pressure on the diaphragm. Then, if one side of the diaphragm has a vacuum on it, the output is considered 'absolute' (PSIA). If it is exposed to the ambient atmospheric pressure, it is called 'gauge' (PSIG). Of course, these terms apply to any type pressure sensor -- i.e. whether the reading is absolute or gauge. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 15:19:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA11780; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:12:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11775; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:12:52 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis0-p12.everett.net [205.134.193.76]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA00190 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:10:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:10:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199609131510.IAA00190@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <9608138426.AA842653607@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> References: <9608138426.AA842653607@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jeeez, I go away for a couple weeks on vacation and I get back and someone has changed the furniture around on me again. No problem reaching the US site... still wondering what the problem is going south though? Thanks for setting up the archive. -j- At [Fri, 13 Sep 96 15:26:47 ] dzorde@aesprodata.com.au wrote: dzorde> dzorde> Sorry John, clarification. It is Andrew's site that is un-reachable, dzorde> yours works fine. dzorde> dzorde> Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au dzorde> dzorde> dzorde> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ dzorde> Subject: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas dzorde> Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET dzorde> Date: 9/13/96 2:36 PM dzorde> dzorde> dzorde> -------- dzorde> dzorde> |That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to dzorde> |have a problem connecting to it. dzorde> dzorde> Are we talking about the same web site? dzorde> dzorde> http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu dzorde> dzorde> Not Andrew's site. Andrew tried to mirror his site here, but apparently dzorde> he has the same problem we have going the other way. dzorde> dzorde> If you really can not ftp or telnet to OSU's efi332, I would like to dzorde> know about it. dzorde> dzorde> John S Gwynne dzorde> Gwynne.1@osu.edu dzorde> _______________________________________________________________________________ dzorde> T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y dzorde> ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA dzorde> Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 dzorde> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dzorde> dzorde> dzorde> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 15:25:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA11826; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:20:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11812; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:20:46 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25159; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:20:30 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA197.9C833A00@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:18:42 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA197.9C833A00@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "dibble@peaches.ph.utexas.edu" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:40:32 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi And I thought BM was just a technical description of my pool playing... = Oh well. But seriously... I agree oil and vinegar make salad dressing, but it = does need to be shaken to get the relevant flavour, and if you dont = shake the atmosphere, it tends to separate. Not a lot, but it does, and = the light fractions float. Mark =20 ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Friday, September 13, 1996 2:50 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; dibble@peaches.ph.utexas.edu Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation >On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: >> what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are >> the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- >> self) can survive at (oops, poor english). And on the same day, James Weiler replied: >Absolutely ! and don't let anyone else tell you any different ! It's = the=20 >partial presures of each gas constituent that decrease with higher=20 >altitude but the ratios of the gases stay the same. If they were=20 >different how would it stay that way over time?? There is a law called = >Brownian motion that dictates that all molecules will proceed from a=20 >place of high concentration to a place of low concentration until they=20 >are equally distributed. This is our atmosphere and it's had lots of=20 >time to equilibrate. =20 To which, I reply replied "And I thought Brownian movement was when those little girls are selling cookies." tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 15:56:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA12329; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:46:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA12323; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:46:32 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25187; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:46:13 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA19B.2DE05520@speed.demon.nl>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:44:14 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA19B.2DE05520@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: MAP sensor Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:43:45 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Just a note: The sensors you are talking about have a nipple for a push fit hose, or = two nipples in the case of the differential ones. If you want to get a = pipe thro' a metal box (shielding or whatever), look at the tank = fittings for model airplanes... they are handy, especially the bulkhead = ones with a threaded bit in the middle and a nipple on each end, so that = you can build a box with all the local electronics inside, and not have = to open it t connect/disconnect the pressure hose. Just an idea Mark ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Friday, September 13, 1996 3:20 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: MAP sensor >> I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to = use, >> how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I = suppose >> a parts house), and how does it work? Alex Cazin replied: >The Ford EEC-IV MAP sensor is a good one. It is a "smart" sensor,=20 >with on-board signal processing and it has digital output, a "near"=20 >perfect square wave (49-51 % duty cycle). It is rugged and it lives=20 >well in the engine compartment and a long vacuum hose from the=20 >intake manifold does not bother it. > >Square wave output makes it easy to process. Output frequency is from=20 >about 159 Hz at 0 in. vacuum (key ON, engine OFF or wide open=20 >throttle, same as baro pressure output) to around 102 Hz at 21 in.=20 >vacuum (idle). > >Frequency vs. vacuum output is pretty linear for a good sensor. > Thanks, Alex. Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. To followers of the thread, Todd Knighton recently posted: "Newark Electronics has the Motorola Sensors. They're not to be put in "the engine compartment. They're not ruggedized. We've been putting "them inside the Motronics unit inside the car and they've worked well.=20 "the MPX4250A is a 2.5 bar absolute sensor, so it's good to about 20psi "and absolute vacuum. They make a MPX4100A, I think that's the number, "for normally aspirated vehicles, never ordered that one. These are all "temperature trimmed and compensated sensors so they aren't affected by "different temps like most MAPs are." The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, (http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog for about $26. They have a linear voltage output (not freq), are small and have different methods for connecting them to the pressure source to be measured (probably via a hose). Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? The analog output might be ideal for me to augment the control on the Holley aftermarket system I already have. For a digital system, will simply A-D. Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 16:45:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA12511; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:35:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12506; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:35:29 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:38:06 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:36:58 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369515010-28910568@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Dave Williams > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head > Date: Friday, September 13, 1996 12:17 AM > > > -> Have a look Zoche aerodiesel web page: > -> http://193.26.97.194 Maybe this will be the future of car diesel > -> also! > > I have some a 1940s engineering book which makes a strong case for the > aviation Diesel. Just prior to the end of W.W.II, Napier Deltic built the "ultimate IC engine. It was a 12 cylinder horizontally opposed 2 cycle diesel with 2 stage supercharging, inter and after cooling, the exhaust was compounded and the excess was funneled into a nozzle to develop 750 foot pounds thrust. It developed about 3500 HP and weighed less, thus breaking the 1 hp per pound barrier. Problem was the gas turbine could make similar power, much lower weight and much simpler, so the IC engine was relegated to cheap, low power apps and exists today in ac use only because the lawyers have made it impossible to change anything without a billion $ lawsuit. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 16:57:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA12558; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:51:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12553; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:51:43 -0400 Received: from braketosh400 (pon-mi3-14.ix.netcom.com [205.186.168.110]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA04220 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:51:35 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960913165238.0067c290@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: tomlinsc@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:52:38 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Chuck Tomlinson Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mark Pitts wrote: > >But seriously... I agree oil and vinegar make salad dressing, but it does need to be shaken to get the relevant flavour, and if you dont shake the atmosphere, it tends to separate. Not a lot, but it does, and the light fractions float. Near the ground, the atmosphere *is* shaken (and stirred) by convection currents. The fact that air temp near the surface (<20,000') decreases with increasing altitude *guarantees* constant convective mixing. Convection mixes the air vertically, and winds mix the air horizontally. Up above 60,000' there are layers of the atmosphere that do not have a significant vertical temperature gradient. Convective mixing is minimal there, but my car won't run at that altitude :-) Where we live and drive, the mole fraction of oxygen in air is constant at about 21%. -- Chuck Tomlinson From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 16:59:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA12613; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:55:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12608; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:55:38 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <115521-3543>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:55:34 +0100 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00521; Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:44:29 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma000516; Fri Sep 13 12:44:26 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06666; Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:54:39 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA25650; Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:54:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:54:02 +0100 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609131654.AA25650@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: re: Electronic Ignition Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Transistor and CD systems only use the points for switching an electronic > circuit. There is no 'real' inductance attached to the points any- > more -- therefore no real need for a cap. In fact, the cap will > slow down the rise/fall of the signal, so it really should NOT be there. When I converted my boat from points to an MSD ignition, the tech folks at MSD said that the cap can be left in place with no ill effects. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 17:14:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12782; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:06:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12777; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:06:50 -0400 Received: from van-as-10a09.direct.ca ([204.174.245.57]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <267724-4476>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:06:42 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:48:15 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: MISC sensors Message-Id: <96Sep13.100642-0700pdt.267724-4476+590@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HI ALL With the interest in Map sensors will try and dig out data sheets For the ford the following in. (HG) kpa Hz 0 0 159 3 10.2 150 6 20.3 141 9 30.5 133 12 40.6 125 15 50.8 117 18 61.0 109 21 71.7 102 24 81.3 95 27 91.5 88 30 101.6 80 The gm Map sensor stamped #460 is similiar but has a analog output. 20 KPa gives about 0.9 volt, with 101 kpa about 4.9 volts. Readily available. sorry but the spec sheet is at work. Will post it later GL : peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 17:25:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12896; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:17:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12891; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:17:41 -0400 Received: from van-as-10a09.direct.ca ([204.174.245.57]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <269928-4469>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:17:34 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:59:04 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Vats last word Message-Id: <96Sep13.101734-0700pdt.269928-4469+627@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hiya ALL For the people with lots of resistors here are the VATS resistor values 1, 400 ohms 2, 525 ohms 3, 680 ohms 4, 885 ohms 5, 1,130 ohms 6, 1,465 ohms 7, 1,860 ohms 8, 2,360 ohms 9, 3025 ohms 10, 3,730 ohms 11, 4,750 ohms 12, 6,050 ohms 13, 7,500 ohms 14, 9,540 ohms 15, 11,790 ohms This should let the dedicated DIY er do it to Passkey I It doesn't really help anyone else since it would probably take a while Later: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 17:46:57 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA13168; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:44:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA13163; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:44:27 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.33) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:47:00 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Math Question Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:45:06 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369510876-29159209@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Given A. 600 PSI pressure from TDC to BDC B. Any piston diameter C. Any stroke D. any RPM you chose Whats the peak torque and HP possible? Not a trick question, just use any numbers you chose. 600 PSI is the pressure of little old fashioned saturated steam at about 440 degrees f. Raise the temp to 900 with super heat and you get 1200 PSI. These are commercial production steam plant values. For extra credit, look up and plug in the PSI values for the temperatures actually present at combustion. Velocity does not matter - don't even think about it. Consider the RPM limit to be whatever the physical destruction flyapart limit is of your engine. Steam will make 20,000 miles an hour plus because thats what shoves the shuttle into space. Still clueless? What is the result of burning pure liquid oxygen and pure liquid hydrogen with no nitrogen, carbon or other contaminants present? After thinking about the numbers, you can begin to understand the fascination with water fuel blends, injections, mixs, and what ever and why,from since the dawn of the Internal Combustion engine, engineers and experimenters keep coming back to it and not just as an anti-detontant. And for practical applications about how much power is truly available from a small piston, check out the last generation of railroad steam engines. A couple of smallish pistons (displacement compared to the multiple diesel engines that replaced them) moving slowly (thinks tens to a couple hundred rpm max) drove 700,000 LB plus locomotives to speeds over a hundred miles an hour dragging loads of up to 10,000 tons behind them - depending on the speed. It took 3 or 4 1500 HP diesels to replace them and they still didn't quite make the power. And by the way, the peak steam pressure on road locomotives seldom exceeded 300 PSI!!!!!! Remember the Reichstag ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 18:57:28 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA13281; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:53:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA13276; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:53:24 -0400 Received: from van-as-08a09.direct.ca ([204.174.249.153]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <269852-4472>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:53:13 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:34:45 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Map Sensors Message-Id: <96Sep13.115313-0700pdt.269852-4472+602@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HI All FYI the part number for the GM Map sensor is 2503679 . Stamped near the connector is the number 460. This was used in GM applications from 1984 to 1992 so should be common in wrecking yards. Uses three conn. GND, + 5V, and signal. Let me know if you want the pinout. The part number for the Baro sensor is 1600683, stamped 833. Recognized by a piece of foam on the pressure port. Here is cal data for baro. 100 Kpa, 4.9V 90 Kpa, 4.4V 80 Kpa, 3.8V 70 Kpa, 3.3V 60 Kpa, 2.7V 50 Kpa, 2.2V 40 Kpa, 1.7V 30 Kpa, 1.1V 20 Kpa, 0.6V 10 Kpa, 0.3V Check these carefully, seem to remember they might be for the Map. It is relatively easy to make a cal chart using a Mytec tester. GL: peter I"ll put out more sensor info but its at work right now. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 19:37:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA13356; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:32:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13351; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:32:46 -0400 Received: from braketosh400 (pon-mi7-28.ix.netcom.com [205.184.190.156]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13078 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:32:38 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960913193334.00680a48@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: tomlinsc@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:33:34 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Chuck Tomlinson Subject: Re: Math Question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Robert J. Harris wrote: > >And for practical applications about how much power is truly available >from a small piston, check out the last generation of railroad steam >engines. A couple of smallish pistons (displacement compared to the >multiple diesel engines that replaced them) moving slowly (thinks tens to >a couple hundred rpm max) drove 700,000 LB plus locomotives to speeds >over a hundred miles an hour dragging loads of up to 10,000 tons behind >them - depending on the speed. It took 3 or 4 1500 HP diesels to replace >them and they still didn't quite make the power. And by the way, the peak >steam pressure on road locomotives seldom exceeded 300 PSI!!!!!! If steam engines are so great, why were they replaced with diesels? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 20:05:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA13399; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:58:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13394; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:58:35 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 13 Sep 96 15:57:30 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18187; Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:01:51 EDT Message-Id: <9609132001.AA18187@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:02:59 +0000 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) > "And I thought Brownian movement was when those little girls are selling > cookies." Well, you certainly diffused that situation. --- David Parrish Pun-ishmnet is it's own reward. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 13 21:54:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA13699; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:49:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA13694; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:49:35 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:49:34 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:49:27 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:49:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:49:10 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: RE: Altitude Compensation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi "David M Parrish" Wrote: | | >From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) | | > "And I thought Brownian movement was when those little girls are selling | > cookies." | | Well, you certainly diffused that situation. I like puns, but that one made me groan! Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 03:56:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA14127; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 03:47:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA14122; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 23:47:23 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.36) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:49:56 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Math Question Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:48:51 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369474700-1919688@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: Chuck Tomlinson > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Math Question > Date: Friday, September 13, 1996 12:33 PM > If steam engines are so great, why were they replaced with diesels? Cost, size, complexity, labor costs and unions, government policy during WWII and sheer stupidity. An external combustion engine for anything other than large marine or stationary purposes is not economically comparable to an internal combustion. BTW, the worlds land speed record was set in the first years of this century by a STEAM driven vehicle (the Stanley Steamer to be exact) and it was one hell of a lot faster than anything else period. Won't quote how much over a hundred miles an hour it was because some anally retentive person will expend the night trying to correct me. The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. The use of a locomotive was to illustrate the power available from steam and small cylinder's not to spend my life re-hashing ancient history. Do you think that catapilar and others are trying to invent a cheaper fuel? Not f___ng likely. What they want is a more powerful engine without increasing the size and complexity of the current production engines. And for those that think that pure technical superiority is the sole cause of replacement or change, perhaps you might review the evolution of betamax vs vhs or any other commercial decision made since moby dick was a minnow. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 15:09:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA14948; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:06:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.interlog.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14943; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:06:40 -0400 Received: from gold.interlog.com (root@gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id KAA22546 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acazin.interlog.com (acazin.interlog.com [205.206.75.66]) by gold.interlog.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA23991 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:06:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199609141506.LAA23991@gold.interlog.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: acazin@interlog.com To: diy_efi Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:07:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: MAP sensor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that > that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an > interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts > proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Expect the Ford MAP to be a few $ more than a GM or Chrysler MAP. But the digital output means that it can be processed by the microprocessor directly, without A-D conversion. So, if your control module can accept the signal, this signal is ready for consumption. You could probably buy the sensor from a junk yard (I don't recommend it), to save a few $, but if you do, check it for proper operation. Use a hand held vacuum pump, give it 5V and ground, and measure the frequency output (on the center wire of the connector) from 0 in. to 25 in. of vacuum, in 5 in. vacuum intervals (ie. 0, 5, 10, 15, 20 , 25). Then, graph the freq. vs. vacuum and you should get a straight line (a little drifting is OK.) Also, tap on the sensor and maybe heat it to see if "it gets lost". If it passes these simple tests, then the sensor is OK. Alex Cazin From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 16:07:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15015; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:04:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eola.ao.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA15010; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:04:23 -0400 Received: from Default (port04.tserver1.ao.net [205.244.242.104]) by eola.ao.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06252 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:03:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:03:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199609141603.MAA06252@eola.ao.net> X-Sender: aec@mail.accessorl.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Arnaldo Echevarria Subject: Re: water injection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The full description of his results can be found in the fourth edition of >Sir Henry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" >pages 165-171. (only in the fourth edition) > Someone (is it you) keeps quoting this book and I can't seem to find it. I've looked everywhere in Orlando, Fl with no luck. Any ideas? Arnaldo E. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 18:46:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA15929; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:44:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA15921; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:44:17 -0400 Received: from pmeU05.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU05.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.6]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id LAA27442 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609141844.LAA27442@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 01:57 PM 9/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable >through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the >whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search >engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) > > John S Gwynne > Gwynne.1@osu.edu Thanx, John. Could you maybe put a reminder about this in the monthly subscriber thingie, just for da halibut? regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 19:25:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA16879; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:23:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA16873; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:23:33 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24447 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:26:02 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id PAA11596; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:23:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Math Question In-Reply-To: <1369474700-1919688@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer power of > a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. The use of a > locomotive > was to illustrate the power available from steam and small cylinder's not > to > spend my life re-hashing ancient history. Isn't that part of the advantage of water injection? Add some water to the combustion process, make some steam, get more cylinder pressures? I know that water injection in avaition is mostly used during takeoff to prevent detonation, and thus allow an A/F ratio that produces maximum power, but an aviator friend of mine said you get some of the added kick of a steam engine. He also said engines running water injection run smoother, too, even under partial load conditions. > **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 19:31:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA17017; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:30:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17011; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:30:18 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx08-22.teleport.com (ip-pdx08-22.teleport.com [206.163.121.214]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07830 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609141930.MAA07830@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Timing - again Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Well it's time for me to challenge some with more edu than me, but I'm armed now! Awhile back there was a thread about timing with various and asundry theorys about what exactly takes place in combustion chamber, what preignition is, detonation etc. Ed and Todd both described scenarios designed to set timing to avoid knock. I've maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock and are best timed by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe series Fords come to mind) suggests that power goes down significantly before knock, and frequently is accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a great extent, the latest Circle track Magazine has dyno tests on the latest Ford heads that show that timing is best at some point well behind the knock point. I manintain that much bigger differences than show here are available in the real world.(on track) Having blown engs using the knock method, it leaves me a little less than impressed. It still seems that the trick is finding the sweet spot, with knock only useful for a message telling you which way to go, and that you need to go a ways. Anyhow, do any of you guys that know about combustion chamber design want to see if you can agree on why this is? No, I'm not going to argue with you, just watch the proceedings. Ps. I got another bosch d brain brain and it works.(I'm back to a v8 now!) Can anybody tell me the difference between bosch #0 280 002 013(original) and the only thing I could get to replace it #0 280 002 005? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 14 19:52:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA17188; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:51:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17183; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:51:06 -0400 Received: from pmeU04.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU04.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.5]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id MAA04474 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609141951.MAA04474@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: MAP sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:19 AM 9/13/96 -0500, Tom wrote: >Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, >what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. Typically, most OEM MAP sensors are little black boxes around 2x3x1", with screw mounting holes built in, a small barbed hose fitting, and a plug or short wiring harness with plug. >The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, >(http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog >for about $26. The MPX4100 series have all the necessary signal conditioning built in. They are simple 3 wire devices, voltage in (5V) , voltage out (.2v-4.9v), ground. Slap it in a waterproof enclosure and you're done. They may not like high vibration environments, so best to mount them on the firewall, in the passenger compartment and run a hose to the manifold vacuum tree. These may be chaper than new OEM sensors, if you feel like doing the mechanical bit yourself. If you are doing an EFI circuit board, consider mounting the sensor right on your PCB. Vacuum hose doesn't pick up noise, whereas a wiring harness might... One tip on these, the hose barbs provided on the sensor are relatively fragile, one slip when pushing on the hose and it's history. Better to plumb this out to an external metal hose barb on the box, to avoid the chance of breaking off the tit. >Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? >Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that >that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an >interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts >proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Either unit will give you equivalent results, and probably don't require any intervening components to interface to the processor. If you have enough analog channels on your micro, analog is probably easier. If you are short on analogs, and feel confident that you can write the code to measure frequency (piece of cake on an 'HC11, but then so is analog) do it that way. The frequency approach may have better noise immunity than analog. Forget the F-V stuff, it's not necessary or desireable. For dinking around purposes, you may be better off to get a used unit from an auto wreckers, and see if it does what you want. As far as what to do with the data once you've got it, stay tuned... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 06:02:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18125; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 05:57:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18120; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 01:57:35 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis0-p7.everett.net [205.134.193.71]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16556 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 22:55:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 22:55:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199609150555.WAA16556@post.everett.net> From: Johnny To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <199609141844.LAA27442@freya.van.hookup.net> References: <199609141844.LAA27442@freya.van.hookup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Good idea. -j- At [Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT)] Darrell Norquay wrote: dnorquay> At 01:57 PM 9/12/96 -0400, you wrote: dnorquay> dnorquay> >Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable dnorquay> >through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the dnorquay> >whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search dnorquay> >engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) dnorquay> > dnorquay> > John S Gwynne dnorquay> > Gwynne.1@osu.edu dnorquay> dnorquay> Thanx, John. Could you maybe put a reminder about this in the monthly dnorquay> subscriber thingie, just for da halibut? dnorquay> dnorquay> regards dnorquay> dn dnorquay> dnorquay@awinc.com dnorquay> From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 07:12:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA18234; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:59:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA18229; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 02:59:41 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx05-48.teleport.com (ip-pdx05-48.teleport.com [206.163.121.48]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA21342 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609150659.XAA21342@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: steam! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's been thru the engine?(Water isn't as plentyful as it used to be) Short of making a deal with wppss(Another conceptually and financially bankrupt govt. - washington public power supply system.) on a unused cooling tower that is.? It's not that my old truck won't tow it, it's that at 496' in height I don't think I could license the trailer, never mind clearance problems.:-) I heard of a guy locally that put a outboard motor in a ups like truck with a homemade rotary valve and "modern" boiler(this was in the mid 70's) There were several little problems, but one of them was to much power. He hooked the crank direct to the driveline, no tranny. You had to be careful with the throttle because it had a tendency to fry the 4 rear tires. Imagine grandma able to only drive like a scalded ape because of power. At least that's the way I heard it, and the guy I heard it from knew the one who did it and has never been caught lying in the 30 years I've known him. Another problem is that in Ameirca cars are supposed to be babby buggies in that any idiot is supposed to be able to get in one and reguardless oh how stupid he or someone else is no one's supposed to get hurt.(I didn't do it, don't blame me) Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell me at the local steam generating plant. Anyhow suffice it to say that 1200psi anything in a vehicle is going to have a real rough time with the market, and govt.'s. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 10:32:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA18457; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:12:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA18452; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:12:37 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01I9HV53T4WW00009K@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 05:10:09 CDT Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 06:49:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Math Question To: diy_efi Message-id: <298888.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> If steam engines are so great, why were they replaced with diesels? Because if the operator of a steam engine were stupid enough he could blow it up, greatly annoying the owner and any bystanders. It's pretty hard to do that with a Diesel. Steam prime movers are pretty much limited to stationary turbines now, but they're still pretty important. There's a 99.99% chance the electricity you're using to read this message was generated by a steam engine, whether the heat source was burning coal or nuclear fission. ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 11:53:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA18544; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:12:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA18539; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 07:12:25 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Sun, 15 Sep 96 13:12:22 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Sun, 15 Sep 96 13:12:21 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Sun, 15 Sep 96 13:11:53 +0100 Received: from line53.ppp.lrz-muenchen.de by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Sun, 15 Sep 96 13:11:46 +0100 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Hans Hintermaier" To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:08:06 +0000 Subject: Re: water injection Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <92F4716FC7@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >The full description of his results can be found in the fourth > >edition of Sir Henry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion > >Engine" pages 165-171. (only in the fourth edition) > > > Someone (is it you) keeps quoting this book and I can't seem to find > it. I've looked everywhere in Orlando, Fl with no luck. Any ideas? > Arnaldo E. Keep care with this book, if you find one! Many theoretics are out of order today. e.g. "Inlet valve must open after the piston started moving down. The inflowing air must be succed into the cylinder" (my own re-translation into english) That was in 1926, and a one liter racing-engine had about 50HP ( without compressor) Today engines have both vales wide open in DTC Regards Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 16:41:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA18844; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:40:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA18839; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:40:39 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp5.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.227]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26031 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:38:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:38:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609151538.KAA26031@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: steam! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's >been thru the engine?.... > I heard of a guy locally that put a outboard motor in a ups like truck with >a homemade rotary valve and "modern" boiler(this was in the mid 70's) There >were >several little problems, but one of them was to much power. He hooked the crank >direct to the driveline, no tranny. You had to be careful with the throttle >because >it had a tendency to fry the 4 rear tires... >Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. Anyhow suffice it to say that 1200psi >anything in a vehicle is going to have a real rough time with the market, and >govt.'s. Hi Tom, I'm a super critical power plant worker (761 mega watt of net generation using 3,600psi steam at 1,005 F). I have thought about this same concept. A simple surface condenser (air cooled radiator) would be able to condense the vapor back to water (plant folks call it condensate). You would need a big one in my opinion, because of the other hot gases in the exhaust stream. If you could seperate the water vapor from the uncondensable exhaust gases, before going to the surface condenser, you could use a smaller unit. Now, let's say you reclaim each and every drop of water. You've got another technical tid bit to overcome. You will have to purify the condensate before you put it back into your piston turbine or engine. Welcome to the un-glamorous world of water purififation! In any steam plant, water purification is the single most inportant item. Bad water/steam quality has caused more high dollar damage to steam and water equipment than any thing else, period! Yea, yea... I now some real smart person is saying "We'll just put one of them there real fine filters in line and call it fixed." It's not just the undissolved solids that will have to be removed. MOST of the dissolved solids will have to go also. "Filters" that remove dissolved solids are called Reverse Osmossis units and they cost much more than regular filter systems. And of course, there are de-ionization systems that will do the same. As one DIYer said, early attempts of this have lead to chemically fouled engines. Cleaning the water isn't impossible. It just adds to the technical complexity (cost) of the steam engine. Our water treatment plant is our largest cost in our operation and mainteance budget. Keep in mind that we reuse most of our water. I've been within a 20 feet of leaking super critical steam, you would recieve severe heat burns long before you got near enough to be cut by the steam. Also, steam leaking under high pressure and temperature gives off it's own audible warning, like a 100' cobra. This still might not be fool proof. I'm fairly certain that supercritical steam has no place in the automotive market, a 100-300psi system might be feasable. Think about this, a turbine connected between the rear axle and tranny (to assist the engine). Hot water from the engine is routed to water jacketed exhaust manifolds for 'super heating'. This steam is then routed to the drive shaft turbine. Low pressure steam leaves the turbine and enters the radiator or back to the engine to be condensed or heated again. And, don't forget the water purification unit right before the turbine. I'm sure there is a simple reason why this will not work, besides cost. I don't know it. Let's see what the thermodynamic experts say. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 16:41:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA18836; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:40:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA18831; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:40:21 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp5.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.227]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26024 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609151537.KAA26024@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: steam! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's >been thru the engine?.... > I heard of a guy locally that put a outboard motor in a ups like truck with >a homemade rotary valve and "modern" boiler(this was in the mid 70's) There >were >several little problems, but one of them was to much power. He hooked the crank >direct to the driveline, no tranny. You had to be careful with the throttle >because >it had a tendency to fry the 4 rear tires... >Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. Anyhow suffice it to say that 1200psi >anything in a vehicle is going to have a real rough time with the market, and >govt.'s. Hi Tom, I'm a super critical power plant worker (761 mega watt of net generation using 3,600psi steam at 1,005 F). I have thought about this same concept. A simple surface condenser (air cooled radiator) would be able to condense the vapor back to water (plant folks call it condensate). You would need a big one in my opinion, because of the other hot gases in the exhaust stream. If you could seperate the water vapor from the uncondensable exhaust gases, before going to the surface condenser, you could use a smaller unit. Now, let's say you reclaim each and every drop of water. You've got another technical tid bit to overcome. You will have to purify the condensate before you put it back into your piston turbine or engine. Welcome to the un-glamorous world of water purififation! In any steam plant, water purification is the single most inportant item. Bad water/steam quality has caused more high dollar damage to steam and water equipment than any thing else, period! Yea, yea... I now some real smart person is saying "We'll just put one of them there real fine filters in line and call it fixed." It's not just the undissolved solids that will have to be removed. MOST of the dissolved solids will have to go also. "Filters" that remove dissolved solids are called Reverse Osmossis units and they cost much more than regular filter systems. And of course, there are de-ionization systems that will do the same. As one DIYer said, early attempts of this have lead to chemically fouled engines. Cleaning the water isn't impossible. It just adds to the technical complexity (cost) of the steam engine. Our water treatment plant is our largest cost in our operation and mainteance budget. Keep in mind that we reuse most of our water. I've been within a 20 feet of leaking super critical steam, you would recieve severe heat burns long before you got near enough to be cut by the steam. Also, steam leaking under high pressure and temperature gives off it's own audible warning, like a 100' cobra. This still might not be fool proof. I'm fairly certain that supercritical steam has no place in the automotive market, a 100-300psi system might be feasable. Think about this, a turbine connected between the rear axle and tranny (to assist the engine). Hot water from the engine is routed to water jacketed exhaust manifolds for 'super heating'. This steam is then routed to the drive shaft turbine. Low pressure steam leaves the turbine and enters the radiator or back to the engine to be condensed or heated again. And, don't forget the water purification unit right before the turbine. I'm sure there is a simple reason why this will not work, besides cost. I don't know it. Let's see what the thermodynamic experts say. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 17:22:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA18973; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:15:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA18968; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:15:06 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial010h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.75]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA20726 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <323BD774.4701@net-quest.com> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:16:20 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Timing - again References: <199609141930.MAA07830@desiree.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Talltom, Yes, I've seen the same thing, max power prior to detonation. Though this was typically on very crappy cylinder heads. The one that really comes to mind is a 1.8L 4 cylinder 914 engine my brother had. You could wing the distributor all the way around and never get that damned thing to knock. So there was definately a peak power point prior to detonation. One other example I found was on a racing 911 engine that had a very poorly designed piston. 911 heads are semi-hemispherical in shape, and this particular engine had Cosworth pistons in it, running about 11/1 compression ratio. The piston shape shrouded the spark plug, as well as created a ring of unburnt gasses at the base of the the combustion chamber becuase the quench area was up the piston a ways and left this ring open. This engine wanted about 37 - 42 degrees timing to produce peak power, but would run all the way to about 45 degrees with the power falling off prior to detonation. This engine was torn down, the pistons reshaped and reassembled. Peak power now occurred at about 32 - 35 degrees peak with detonation onset at 37 degrees. The power went up 30 hp, even though we had effectively lowered the compression ratio from 11/1 to 9/1 by reshaping the crown of the piston. Though the better shape obviously worked a bit better. Our typical engines now are flat top pistons in a semi-hemispherical combustion chamber, running 7.5 to 8.5 / 1 compression ratio up to 1.4 bar (20 psi) boost giving us an effective compression ratio in the 18-20/1 range. Running twin-plug on these engines requires only 18 degrees advance on pump fuel for peak power. 20 degrees knocks and destroys engines. This combustion chamber works very effectively in this configuration, though not very well in a high compression ratio, normally aspirated setup. Point is, and I think Ed would agree with me, is that with all things properly setup, knock and peak power will be very close to one another. Though with poor combustion chamber design, like in a 15/1 compression ratio Winston cup motor that deals with tiny little restricters. Knock, power, and timing get very different. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering > Ed and Todd both described scenarios designed to set timing to avoid > knock. I've maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock > and are best timed by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe > series Fords come to mind) suggests that power goes down significantly before > knock, and frequently is accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a > great extent, the latest Circle track Magazine has dyno tests on the latest > Ford heads that show that timing is best at some point well behind the knock > point. I manintain that much bigger differences than show here are available > in the real world.(on track) Having blown engs using the knock method, it > leaves me a little less than impressed. It still seems that the trick is > finding the sweet spot, with knock only useful for a message telling you > which way to go, and that you need to go a ways. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 15 17:53:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA19013; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:45:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA19008; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:45:07 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.33) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:47:45 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: steam! Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:46:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369338031-10139302@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: steam! > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 11:59 PM > > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's > been thru the engine?(Water isn't as plentyful as it used to be) Short of making > a deal with wppss(Another conceptually and financially bankrupt govt. - > washington public power supply system.) on a unused cooling tower that is.? > If you are truly interested in steam engines, the late 40's Americans seem to represent the height of the technology. The south Africans used condensers and recycled the water on some of their steam engines. On many tender mounted booster engines the low pressure exhaust steam was vented directly back into the water supply. With a steam piston engine, transmissions are totally useless. Cut of steam = parked, stopped - no need to idle. Move valve to "forward", go forward. Move valve to reverse, go backwards. Change direction by changing how steam admitted. RPM limit is the destruction limit of engine. Torque limit is by PSI and size of piston. Think of how small loco pistons were in comparison to the 10,000 plus ton loads they sometimes carried. Also, road locomotives were almost universally limited to 300 PSI or less. What you will have is the problems of external combustion and water recycling to have sufficient range. Railroads had water towers at frequent intervals to avoid carrying more than a couple of hundred tons of water and coal at a time. If they told you about 1200 PSI steam and the power from it, remember that it is made at half the temperature reached in an IC engine. For the skeptics, remember - 1cc of liquid water state changed to vapor (boiled) makes about 1800 cc of vapor. Not a bad little expansion ration. What I am tying to do is first build a self tuning controllable EFI for petrol fuels and then, inject a precisely metered amount of additional H2O to get the power of steam from the excess heat and avoid all the external combustion hassles. No it would not be as efficient as an external combustion engine, but it would be far simpler and I believe could develope a lot more power than the same amount of fuel in a straight IC engine. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 01:52:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA19702; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:35:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pompano.pcola.gulf.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA19697; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:35:12 -0400 Received: from ppp127.pcola.gulf.net (ppp127.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.127]) by pompano.pcola.gulf.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17210 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:35:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609160135.UAA17210@pompano.pcola.gulf.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Chuck Thigpen" To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:39:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure. X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Chuck Thigpen" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have been reading all of the correspondence on this list for several months now. I can't even begin to describe all that I have learned about DIY_FI. I continually look to this list to learn more about all of the topics. Unfortunately, my field of study in college was Mechanical Engineering which has made me somewhat illiterate in the world of electronics. I am continually trying to learn more about electronics, however, I am still quite the amateur. I am looking to create a measurement device that is LCD and is virtually a multimeter. I have a 280ZX Turbo that has the stock Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection in it. I am planning on modifying it fairly extensively, but I would like to retain the stock FI system. I need this measuring device to display up to 6 different signals including Inlet Air Temp, Head Temp, A/F ratio, boost pressure, and fuel pressure, water temp etc. I know that I will have to calibrate these readings for each sensor. Is there an A/D converter that would handle this many input signals (possibly a switching type system)??? I would also like the unit to be programmable to read the proper units for each measurement. It can read each signal one at a time. I don't need to see all of them at once. Can anyone recommend what components I should use and how I should assemble such a unit??? Like I said, I am pretty ignorant to electronic circuits beyond the basics. Can someone please help? I want to be able to tune without destroying engine parts. Thanks in advance. Chuck Thigpen From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 02:10:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA19739; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:56:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA19734; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:56:28 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25142 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:56:15 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA04626; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:53:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Timing - again In-Reply-To: <199609141930.MAA07830@desiree.teleport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, talltom wrote: I manintain that much bigger > differences than show here are available in the real world.(on track) Having > blown > engs using the knock method, it leaves me a little less than impressed. It > still > seems that the trick is finding the sweet spot, with knock only useful for a > message > telling you which way to go, and that you need to go a ways. What about the technique of using a vacuum gauge to determine optimum timing? On my old 914, that's what I use, and it jibes with the crank markings (which are really hard to see, hence the alternative method). Briefly, the method is to connect a vacuum gauge and adjust the timing at idle until a maximum reading is found on the gauge, then stop. If you continue to turn the distributor, you'll find that there's a plateau in the reading. I was told that the best timing was just when the plateau was reached. Seems to work for me. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 02:13:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA19758; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 02:06:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA19753; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:06:28 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA00612 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:15:03 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA06567; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:06:26 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA06567; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:06:26 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00089; Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:06:21 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609161306.AA00089@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:06:14 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Math Question Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. (ie the knock limit) >Do you think that catapilar and others are trying to invent a cheaper >fuel? Not f___ng likely. What they want is a more powerful engine >without increasing the size and complexity of the current production >engines. As far as I have read, catapillar are working on the naptha/water emulsion fuel in diesel engines as a way of overcoming it's archilles heel, which is high NOx emissions caused by high combustion pressures. Andrew Rabbitt (remember the thermodynamics...) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 02:20:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA19809; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 02:16:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA19804; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:16:23 -0400 Received: from pmeU29.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU29.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.30]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id TAA03956 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609160216.TAA03956@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: steam! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. At least it'd cauterize the wound at the same time... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 03:14:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA19944; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:09:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA19939; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:09:23 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:12:01 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Timing - again Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:10:05 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369304175-12175545@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Timing - again > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 12:30 PM > > ve > maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock and are > best timed > by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe series Fords come to mind) > suggests that power goes down significantly before knock, and frequently is > accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a great extent, the latest Some one will definitely correct me, but as I understand it, you want to light the fire before top dead center just enuff to make the maxium pressure thru out the entire power stroke. Too early and some of the pressure slows the piston down on the compression stroke. Too too early and knock - drive the piston backwards. Vizard and other current writers says ceramic coating pistons, valves and chambers greatly reduces knock and ping. Micro Coats of Santa Rosa, a leading coater says works great RETARD timing 3 to 4 degrees after coating to make optium power (10% increases not unrealistic). WTF - if optium power is just before destruction limit, and ceramics move that up the advance, why do you make better power at less advance? Maybe better combustion, flame front propagation, etc cause the pressure to build faster. Nah - just f___ng magic. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 05:37:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA20270; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 05:26:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA20265; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:26:06 -0400 From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us Received: from jac.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip12.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.52]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA21031 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:28:24 -0600 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 23:09:21 PDT Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi RE: ceramic surfaces The ceramic coating keeps more of the heat in the gasses through the expansion cycle and more energy is extracted from it. The knock and dentonation improvement is also the result of the insulating properties of the ceramic. During the expansion cycle the surface of the insulation will be hotter than bare iron or aluminum would be in similar conditions. There is less condensation of fuel and combustion products on the head and piston, therefor less carbon buildup and hot spots to cause problems during the compression cycle. The timing can be retarded because the insulated surfaces cause less heat to be absorbed by the head and piston surfaces. The flame front travels faster and probably initiates with greater precision. ---------------Original Message--------------- Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Timing - again > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 12:30 PM > > ve > maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock and are > best timed > by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe series Fords come to mind) > suggests that power goes down significantly before knock, and frequently is > accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a great extent, the latest Some one will definitely correct me, but as I understand it, you want to light the fire before top dead center just enuff to make the maxium pressure thru out the entire power stroke. Too early and some of the pressure slows the piston down on the compression stroke. Too too early and knock - drive the piston backwards. Vizard and other current writers says ceramic coating pistons, valves and chambers greatly reduces knock and ping. Micro Coats of Santa Rosa, a leading coater says works great RETARD timing 3 to 4 degrees after coating to make optium power (10% increases not unrealistic). WTF - if optium power is just before destruction limit, and ceramics move that up the advance, why do you make better power at less advance? Maybe better combustion, flame front propagation, etc cause the pressure to build faster. Nah - just f___ng magic. ----------End of Original Message---------- ------------------------------------- jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us 09/15/96 23:09:21 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 07:10:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA20407; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:01:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA20402; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:01:19 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:03:58 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Math Question Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:02:11 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369290258-581715@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: re: Math Question > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM > > > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. > > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. > (ie the knock limit) > > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, convert between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little teeny tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber - as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any of that wasted heat might get converted to power. Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 09:19:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA20608; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:09:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA20602; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 05:09:07 -0400 Received: from gateway.ccii.co.za [196.3.224.65] by aztec.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0v2Zde-000ap3C; Mon, 16 Sep 96 11:06 EET Received: from wrm.ccii.co.za (wrm.ccii.co.za [196.3.224.81]) by gateway.ccii.co.za (8.7.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA28247 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:16:08 +0200 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:16:08 +0200 Message-Id: <199609160916.LAA28247@gateway.ccii.co.za> X-Sender: wrm@gateway.ccii.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: D-jet part #s Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all TallTom asks >Ps. I got another bosch d brain brain and it works.(I'm back to a v8 now!) >Can anybody tell me the difference between bosch #0 280 002 013(original) and >the only thing I could get to replace it #0 280 002 005? Unfortunately I don't have the MB cross references, only the VW, what I can tell you is that (Bosch part #) 0 280 002 005 has a Bosch exchange code (whatever that is) of CU36X, which matches MB part # 000 545 2632, while 013 has an exchange code of CU38X, matching MB part # 000 545 7932 and 000 545 8032. So they're not the same, but I can't tell you which cars they match. Try to get hold of the bosch 'Gasoline Fuel Injection Automotive Products' catalog, Weatherly 600 catalog no 221109. I only have parts of it. W -- Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 CCII Systems Kenilworth, South Africa From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 09:53:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA20669; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:50:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA20664; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 05:50:19 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p5.everett.net [205.134.193.101]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA02662 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 02:47:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 02:47:45 -0700 Resent-Message-Id: <199609160947.CAA02662@post.everett.net> Message-Id: <199609160947.CAA02662@post.everett.net> Resent-From: Johnny Resent-To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Help tuning Haltech E6 (fwd) From: Jeremy Pronk To: Johnny Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:49:12 +1000 (EST) X-POP3-Rcpt: allnight@post X-Sender: jpronk@arthur In-Reply-To: <199609160440.VAA01295@post.everett.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.09 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This is a forward originating from Jeremy Pronk who is having some trouble recieving the list at his site. Please send all responses you might have to his efi question to him directly. Thanks -j- On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Johnny wrote: > You are on the list alright. Make sure you are sending your posts to: > diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > To see a roster of list members, send mail to: > majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu and put; > who diy_efi > in the body of the message. You will see your name on the list. > If you have further difficulties, send mail to me. I sent the mail to that correct address twice, but it never came back to me (and no one complained about multiple posts?). Maybe you could answer a quick question. I have a 1.5ltr boxer motor converted to haltech efi. I am using a function called quickmap to make a approximate fuel map, but it needs two injector values, injector open time at idle, and injector open time at full power. I put in 1.5ms and 6ms, does that sound about right? The engine seems to idle abnormally, and stays and takes about 5-10secs to come back down to idle again if you give the pedal a pump. I think I will have to fiddle around with it a little more. regards, Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA '69 510 4dr (for sale!) '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 10:32:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA20756; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:30:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA20751; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:30:13 -0400 Received: from arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (arthur) by lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au with SMTP id AA27526 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:29:12 +1000 Received: by arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au id AA29694 (5.67a/IDA-1.4.4 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:29:17 +1000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:29:16 +1000 (EST) From: Jeremy Pronk X-Sender: jpronk@arthur To: diy_efi Subject: test message Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi testing, testing... Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA '69 510 4dr (for sale!) '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 12:03:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA20984; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:57:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA20979; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:57:50 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25600 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:00:23 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA18787; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:57:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us wrote: > RE: ceramic surfaces > > The ceramic coating keeps more of the heat in the gasses > through the expansion cycle and more energy is extracted > from it. Yeah, ceramics are a good way to keep the exhaust gases hot and the heads and pistons cool. In a book I have called "Air Cooled Motor Engines", the author talks about how they tried installing a stainless steel shield in the exhaust port to help keep the heads cooler. But, since the exhaust gas was now hotter, the exhaust valve ran hotter, too. This can be a real problem in air cooled engines. We can expand on this idea and note that any technique (including ThermoTec header wrap tape and Jet Hot Coating) that "keeps the heat in the pipe" will make the exhaust valves run hotter, thus shortening thier life. A solution for this is to get the exhaust valves Jet Hot Coated also, and/or use sodium-cooled exhaust valves. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 13:13:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA21150; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:05:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA21145; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:05:21 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:05:18 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 16 Sep 96 14:05:24 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 16 Sep 96 14:05:10 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:05:02 GMT0BST Subject: Spark plug ionisation Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <2A9FB19D8@ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am starting to do some work on looking at spark plug ionisation for measuring instability in engines running at very lean AFRs. I was just wondering if anybody else had done any work in this field. If so, what sensors were used for measuring the ionisation currents. The system I am looking at is going to use a second spark at around 15degrees after TDC and use a transient suppressor and capacitor on the secondary of the coil to store voltage for measuring ionisation. Martin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 13:15:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA21194; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:13:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA21189; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:13:12 -0400 Received: from slip-72-3.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37812; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:13:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:13:09 -0500 Message-Id: <9609161313.AA37812@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure aka digital dashboard Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] > I am looking to create a measurement device that is LCD and > is virtually a multimeter. I have a 280ZX Turbo that has the > stock Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection in it. I am planning on > modifying it fairly extensively, but I would like to retain the > stock FI system. I need this measuring device to display > up to 6 different signals including Inlet Air Temp, Head Temp, > A/F ratio, boost pressure, and fuel pressure, water temp etc. Look in Radio-Electronics, July, 1990 for an article on building a digital dashboard. I personally like the Intersil ICL-7106, ICL-7116 chips. They are 40-pin, but require a minimal amount of external components and drive the LCD (or LED -- see ICL-7107 or 7117) display directly. Hosfelt Electronics (800-524-6464) has these chips already on a circuit board with the display for about $16. The circuit is the standard circuit described from Intersil, and is a differential input. It can be wired to take 200 mV to 20 volts (of course an op-amp can be wired to amplify lower voltages and resistor attenuators can be built to handle larger) and can be powered from the car battery, but probably should have a resistor-zener or 7809 3-terminal regulator to protect it, as it's max rated supply voltage is 15 volts. The sensors and scaling their outputs to the DPM are another problem. As long as the outputs are linear, simple op-amp circuits will suffice (LM-324 is a quad op-amp and allows single supply operation). From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 15:38:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA21448; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:27:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21443; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:27:30 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p6.everett.net [205.134.193.102]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA04113 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:24:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199609161524.IAA04113@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: "diy_efi" Subject: test... ignore Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:26:48 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi test -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 16:55:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA21564; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:30:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA21558; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:30:06 -0400 Received: from i2-140.islandnet.com [198.53.172.140] by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1) with smtp id m0v2gXQ-000VvhC for ; Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:28 PDT Message-Id: Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:28 PDT X-Sender: iii@mail.islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Can anyone recommend what components I should use and how > I should assemble such a unit??? Like I said, I am pretty ignorant > to electronic circuits beyond the basics. Can someone please help? > I want to be able to tune without destroying engine parts. Thanks > in advance. > > Chuck Thigpen Chuck, There is a very good electronics book on the market called "THE ART OF ELECTRONICS" it covers all types of electronics and has lots of example circuits. It can be hard to find some times, but any good book store should be able to bring it in. Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 17:40:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA21696; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:28:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA21691; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:28:14 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA29242 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <323D8D05.587E@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:23:18 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Yeah, ceramics are a good way to keep the exhaust gases hot and the heads > and pistons cool. In a book I have called "Air Cooled Motor Engines", the > author talks about how they tried installing a stainless steel shield in > the exhaust port to help keep the heads cooler. But, since the exhaust > gas was now hotter, the exhaust valve ran hotter, too. This can be a real > problem in air cooled engines. We can expand on this idea and note that > any technique (including ThermoTec header wrap tape and Jet Hot Coating) > that "keeps the heat in the pipe" will make the exhaust valves run > hotter, thus shortening thier life. A solution for this is to get the > exhaust valves Jet Hot Coated also, and/or use sodium-cooled exhaust > valves. Beware of Ceramics!!! Especially on internal engine parts, i.e. pistons, combustion chambers, valves, exhaust ports. In 1989, Porsche decided to put a ceramic insert in the exhaust ports of the 911's. Works O.K. on Normally aspirated cars. When turbocharged, however, they tend to disentigrate and blow out, subsequently destroying turbine blades. Piston tops coated with ceramic sound great, but on Air-cooled's where expansion is seemingly twice that of watercooled's, they've been having a lot of fun trying to keep the stuff on. Again, on turbocharged engines, the stuff coming out the exhaust port isn't just going into the atmosphere. It destroys things. Coating headers as well tends to make the material run much hotter, thus disintegrates quicker, especially on mild steel. If you just go to a good stainless steel header, the coefficient of thermal heat transfer is so slow, the heat transfer is practically better than a mild steel header ceramic coated. Just my thoughts and experiences. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 18:11:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA21763; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:07:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA21758; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:07:24 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:09:56 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Dyno Stuff Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:07:57 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369250300-2984859@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Just a thought. Jacob's Vehicle Equipment Co. Bloomfield, Conn. has announced the availability of an electromagnetic drive line brake ranging from a 134 to 817 braking horsepower at 2,500 rpm and brake torque values from 289 to 2,315 foot lbs. No relationship to Jacob's Electronics. These devices brake vehicles up to 110,000 lbs. by electromagnetic absorption of power. Cost said to be "reasonable" but have no other data. Just might be useful to look at as an absorber for a dyno. Of course Mr. Thermodynamics and other anally retentive types will quote me physics books saying its impossible - and the fact it is in production by a major heavy truck parts manufacturer will make little difference. Remember the Reichstag ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 20:21:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA21974; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:13:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA21969; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:13:13 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25764; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:11:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:11:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Why run it hot? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 16 23:17:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA22306; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:00:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA22301; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:00:19 -0400 From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us Received: from jac.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip16.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.56]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00339 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:02:33 -0600 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 16:56:15 PDT Subject: RE: Why run it hot? To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The entire point of burning fuel is to make hot gasses. The hotter the better up the the limits of the materials you have to work with. If you can maintain the gasses at higher temperature, you can get extract more energy from the combustion, at the same time reducing the load on the cooling system. john carroll ---------------Original Message--------------- A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ----------End of Original Message---------- ------------------------------------- jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us 09/16/96 16:56:15 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 01:21:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA22487; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:18:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from meteorology.ho.bom.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA22481; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:17:56 -0400 Received: from grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU by meteorology.ho.bom.gov.au (4.1/4.7) id AA23556; Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:21:41 EST Received: from platypus (platypus.baps.BoM.GOV.AU) by grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02827; Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:17:43 EST Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:17:43 EST Message-Id: <9609170117.AA02827@grim.baps.BoM.GOV.AU> From: Stuart Baly To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head X-Mailer: Pronto E-Mail [version 2.01] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The Noratlas had a 14cyl. radial with disc-valves (?). This engine might have used Aspen (Aspin?) valves. I read about these a long time ago. They had a disc mounted on a vertical shaft mounted so that the lower surface of the disc was the upper surface of the combustion chamber. The disc had a hole in it, and was rotated at half engine speed, so that intake and exhaust ports were covered and uncovered at the appropriate times. Apparently the system was sorted and reliable - ports were opened faster and flowed better than with conventional valves, and with no reciprocating valve train, they revved to the moon (14000rpm from a 250cc single in the mid 1930's) Stuart. ============================================== Stuart Baly Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station S.Baly@bom.gov.au ============================================== All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for Sagely Advice, or even Common Sense. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 01:49:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA22523; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:45:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.telstra.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA22518; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:45:16 -0400 Received: from mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au(192.148.147.10) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma012455; Tue Sep 17 11:35:20 1996 Received: from cdn_mail.dn.itg.telecom.com.au(144.135.109.134) by mail_gw.telecom.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma015810; Tue Sep 17 11:33:51 1996 Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU (shiva.trl.oz.au [137.147.20.34]) by cdn-mail.telecom.com.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA10400 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:33:49 +1000 Received: (from pugsley@localhost) by shiva.trl.OZ.AU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA08943 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:33:46 +1000 (EST) From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199609170133.LAA08943@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> Subject: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:33:46 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages of cool stuff in it. Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? Cheers, Craig. pugsley@trl.oz.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 05:57:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA22823; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 05:55:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA22817; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:55:22 -0400 Received: from usr025.bcit.bc.ca ([142.232.188.125]) by aphex.direct.ca with SMTP id <269995-236>; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:55:06 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:35:35 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: GM Map Sensor Message-Id: <96Sep16.225506-0700pdt.269995-236+222@aphex.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All Here is the GM map sensor data Stamped 460 Used 82 - 92 kpa Hg volts 100 0 4.9 90 2.9 4.4 80 5.9 3.8 70 8.9 3.3 60 11.8 2.7 50 14.8 2.2 40 17.7 1.7 30 20.7 1.1 20 23.7 0.6 GL: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 06:10:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA22864; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:08:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA22859; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 02:08:30 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Tue, 17 Sep 96 08:08:24 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 17 Sep 96 8:08:25 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 17 Sep 96 8:08:10 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:08:10 MET Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Stuart, no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as possible between the cone and the head. A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by BMW, but didn't reach production stage. I don't know the name (maybe knight?) and I do hard to explain the principle. The cylinderwall has slots and is turning / oscillating. Knight system had two coaxial slotted cylinders turning (or so) I try to find the book where I read it. Hans > >The Noratlas had a 14cyl. radial with disc-valves (?). > > This engine might have used Aspen (Aspin?) valves. I read about these a > long time ago. They had a disc mounted on a vertical shaft mounted so that > the lower surface of the disc was the upper surface of the combustion > chamber. The disc had a hole in it, and was rotated at half engine speed, > so that intake and exhaust ports were covered and uncovered at the > appropriate times. Apparently the system was sorted and reliable - ports > were opened faster and flowed better than with conventional valves, and > with no reciprocating valve train, they revved to the moon (14000rpm from a > 250cc single in the mid 1930's) > > Stuart. hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 06:49:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA22907; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:46:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA22902; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 02:46:12 -0400 Received: by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46178; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:41:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:41:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > Hi Stuart, > no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it > was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as > possible between the cone and the head. > A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by > BMW, but didn't reach production stage. Any more information on the BMW engine? Junkers made a WW2 era disc valve V8 aluminum engine for torpedos. power output was 275hp at 3600 rpm. Interestingly enough, one Felix Wankel developed it. jim Davies From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 07:26:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA22963; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:21:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA22958; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 03:21:33 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA11896; Tue, 17 Sep 96 14:20:59 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA842999618 Tue, 17 Sep 96 15:33:38 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 15:33:38 Message-Id: <9608178429.AA842999618@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Injector list Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I seem to remember a while back, there was talk about injector flow rates, well I happend to come across this earlier today: http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/%7ek124476/index.html For those interested, once you get through it all, there is a reasonable list on Bosch injectors ie. part numbers and flow rates. I don't know if the home page owner is on the list, but I recon he has done quite a job of it. Enjoy !! Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 08:50:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23065; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:40:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA23060; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:40:41 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03738 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:40:41 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA484.60E24320@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:38:35 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA484.60E24320@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: Off limits Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:38:21 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Seems to me we are getting way way off topic guys, much as I enjoy the = steam thing that is going on, and the discussion of weird heads and = valves, I suspect that building new heads, or trying to perfect the = automotive steam engine is way out of most of our capabilitys. I've decided to start my project by building a mapped ignition for a 4 = ,6 or 8 Cyl engine, with advance by looking up a pre programmed MAP and = engine speed map in eprom. Havnt chosen the uP yet.. but I've given myself till Christmas (as that = is the next time I'll see my ride 9boo sob snif) Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 08:50:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23046; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:32:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA23041; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:32:41 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03718; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:32:14 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA483.53A4C940@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:31:03 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA483.53A4C940@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Darrell Norquay'" Subject: RE: MAP sensor Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:24:46 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Anybody out there know who Stack is??? Well, they use those little = squidgy yellow ear plugs as vibration mounts.. by all accounts they work = REALY well! (but aparantly didnt save a data logger that went round the = back wheel of a Kawasaki!). Ive used them in the past to mount my CD = player in the Spitfire, as the ride is so harsh it wouldnt play.. 4 = earplugs, end on underneath it, and no probs! Just an Idea ! Mark ---------- From: Darrell Norquay[SMTP:dnorquay@awinc.com] Sent: Saturday, September 14, 1996 2:51 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: MAP sensor At 08:19 AM 9/13/96 -0500, Tom wrote: >Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, >what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. Typically, most OEM MAP sensors are little black boxes around 2x3x1", = with screw mounting holes built in, a small barbed hose fitting, and a plug = or short wiring harness with plug. >The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, >(http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog >for about $26.=20 The MPX4100 series have all the necessary signal conditioning built in. They are simple 3 wire devices, voltage in (5V) , voltage out = (.2v-4.9v), ground. Slap it in a waterproof enclosure and you're done. They may = not like high vibration environments, so best to mount them on the firewall, = in the passenger compartment and run a hose to the manifold vacuum tree. = These may be chaper than new OEM sensors, if you feel like doing the = mechanical bit yourself. If you are doing an EFI circuit board, consider mounting = the sensor right on your PCB. Vacuum hose doesn't pick up noise, whereas a wiring harness might... One tip on these, the hose barbs provided on the sensor are relatively fragile, one slip when pushing on the hose and = it's history. Better to plumb this out to an external metal hose barb on the box, to avoid the chance of breaking off the tit. >Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? >Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that >that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an >interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts >proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Either unit will give you equivalent results, and probably don't require = any intervening components to interface to the processor. If you have = enough analog channels on your micro, analog is probably easier. If you are = short on analogs, and feel confident that you can write the code to measure frequency (piece of cake on an 'HC11, but then so is analog) do it that = way. The frequency approach may have better noise immunity than analog. = Forget the F-V stuff, it's not necessary or desireable. For dinking around purposes, you may be better off to get a used unit from an auto = wreckers, and see if it does what you want. As far as what to do with the data = once you've got it, stay tuned... regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 08:50:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23040; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:32:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA23035; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:32:29 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03722; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:32:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA483.561972C0@speed.demon.nl>; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:31:07 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA483.561972C0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'Robert J. Harris'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Math Question Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:14:36 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I kinda get your point, but shurley what we are doing here is using that = superb bit of waters characteristics, latent heat of vaporisation, to = absorb the heat, and not throw it into the walls, crown and head so = much..., and thereby keep the pressure up, or have I got it wrong here? Mark (who thought after 4 years he waas getting to know a bit about this = stuff, and has just realised, put down the soldering iron, and pick the = books up again!) ---------- From: Robert J. Harris[SMTP:bob@bobthecomputerguy.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 1996 9:02 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Math Question Remember the Reichstag ---------- > From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: re: Math Question > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM >=20 >=20 > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer =20 > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. >=20 > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then=20 > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most=20 > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency=20 > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can=20 > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is=20 > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is = > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount.=20 > (ie the knock limit) >=20 > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, = convert=20 between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling=20 water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or=20 more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature=20 - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little teeny=20 tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber -=20 as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is=20 about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes=20 characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times=20 when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any of that wasted heat might get converted to power. Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 08:50:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23053; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:33:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cd1.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA23048; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:33:24 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by cd1.lrz-muenchen.de; Tue, 17 Sep 96 10:33:19 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 17 Sep 96 10:33:18 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Tue, 17 Sep 96 10:33:06 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:33:01 MET Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > > > > Hi Stuart, > > no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it > > was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as > > possible between the cone and the head. > > A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by > > BMW, but didn't reach production stage. > > Any more information on the BMW engine? Junkers made a WW2 era > disc valve V8 aluminum engine for torpedos. power output was 275hp > at 3600 rpm. Interestingly enough, one Felix Wankel developed it. > > jim Davies Hi Jim, I'll try to scan in a drawing of the head until tomorrow and put it on http://www.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de/~hiha/gif/ Felix Wankel's first steps in engineering were experiments with turning gaskets to seal hot parts moving together. So if someone knew how to make a disk valve engine running, then him! All big factories worked together in WW2. I saw books of this time (top secret, interrnal use only) where they discribed everything around engines, still valid today. E. g. High speed movies of different diesel injecors, burning inside a comustion chamber, and much more. How to drill 0.038" holes 30" deep in steel, with X-ray fotos of the results. (they had no hi-pressure tubes for the immense injection-pressure of the JUMO aircraft diesel) More tomorrow Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 10:30:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA23263; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:23:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA23258; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:23:24 -0400 Received: from arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (arthur) by lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au with SMTP id AA18608 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:22:23 +1000 Received: by arthur.st.nepean.uws.edu.au id AA17882 (5.67a/IDA-1.4.4 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:22:28 +1000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:22:28 +1000 (EST) From: Jeremy Pronk X-Sender: jpronk@arthur To: diy_efi Subject: Haltech E6 EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello all, I just purchased a nice alfasud which has been converted to haltech efi. I am having a little trouble tuning the system using the software that came with it. The haltech software has a function call "QuickMAP" which will generate some ruff fuel maps from a few simple inputs. Now I put the standard inputs in, but the map created seems to be much to rich. The standard inputs are 2.3ms injector time at idle, ~10ms at full power... I think these are wrong? The air/fuel ratio is display in volts? Any help is greatly appreciated! I would like to hear from anyone who runs Haltech E6 in there car as well. (Forgive my ignorance, but I have only ever played with carbies up until now, even though I have been on this list for a while, I dont seem to have picked up to much)... Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA '69 510 4dr (for sale!) '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 12:03:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA23491; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:57:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA23486; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:57:43 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28032 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:00:16 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA09636; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:57:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:57:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic In-Reply-To: <323D8D05.587E@net-quest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Todd Knighton wrote: > Beware of Ceramics!!! > Especially on internal engine parts, i.e. pistons, combustion chambers, > valves, exhaust ports. Does this include Jet Hot Coatings? They have pictures of coated valves and piston tops inthier brochure. I can understand this might be a problem in air cooled engines, where the parts expand more due to the higher operating temperatures. > Coating headers as well tends to make the material run much hotter, > thus disintegrates quicker, especially on mild steel. If you just go to > a good stainless steel header, the coefficient of thermal heat transfer > is so slow, the heat transfer is practically better than a mild steel > header ceramic coated. Yeah, that's the idea behind stainless steel valves for air cooled engines, they run cooler that way. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 12:03:48 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA23504; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:02:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA23499; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:02:37 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28084 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:05:11 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA09992; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:02:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Why run it hot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Thor Johnson wrote: > > A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been > passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for > TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up > best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. > Hotter exhaust gas translates to higher gas velocity, which aides scavanging during the exhuast stroke. It's a racer trick to get a little more power out of the engine. Also, using an insulating header wrap reduces temperatures under the hood, which also helps to make a little more power by keeping fuel lines cooler. As Todd has pointed out, things aren't always what they seem, and a good idea can lead to serious consequences depending on the application. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 12:24:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA23550; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:20:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA23545; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:20:48 -0400 Received: from mogate.sps.mot.com by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA19300 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Sep 96 05:20:46 MST Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com by mogate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA18990 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Sep 96 05:20:45 MST Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA09425; Tue, 17 Sep 96 07:20:44 -0500 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07477; Tue, 17 Sep 96 07:35:03 CDT Received: from gocart.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA04083 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:21:57 -0500 From: Matt Sale Received: by gocart.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id IAA01050 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:21:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199609171221.IAA01050@gocart.mot.delcoelect.com> Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:21:56 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199609170133.LAA08943@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> from "Craig Pugsley" at Sep 17, 96 11:33:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 837 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Hi, > > I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, > Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages > of cool stuff in it. > > Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? > > Cheers, > Craig. > pugsley@trl.oz.au > Yes I have one, but I don't know whether they can ship overseas or not. They have quite a few parts, but they aren't cheap. Their EFI info is useful, even if its a little dated. Their original claim-to-fame was mechanical FI systems for race cars. -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@holli.com http://www.holli.com/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.656@103MPH using cave-man technology). All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 12:50:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA23590; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:45:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA23585; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:45:18 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28327; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:43:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:43:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Looking for a price/supplier for a Honda F2 EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi One the reqs for sr design is to evaluate the build/buy decisition (though I like building things). So I am looking for an aftermarket Honda F2 (599 cc, 13000 rpm motorcycle) EFI unit. Any sources? TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 14:55:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA23754; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:41:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from albeniz.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA23749; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:41:17 -0400 Received: From turbo.cse.unsw.edu.au ([129.78.122.187]) By albeniz With Smtp ; Wed, 18 Sep 96 00:41:07 +1000 From: Chris Howard To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:41:14 +1000 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960917144114.006aa3cc@pop3.cse.unsw.edu.au> X-Sender: s2184002@pop3.cse.unsw.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Why run it hot? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:02 17/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Thor Johnson wrote: > >> >> A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been >> passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for >> TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up >> best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. >> > >Hotter exhaust gas translates to higher gas velocity, which aides >scavanging during the exhuast stroke. It's a racer trick to get a little >more power out of the engine. Also, using an insulating header wrap >reduces temperatures under the hood, which also helps to make a little >more power by keeping fuel lines cooler. As Todd has pointed out, things >aren't always what they seem, and a good idea can lead to serious >consequences depending on the application. > Actually the main reason to do this is to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine. For a theoretical reversible (Carnot) engine, thermal efficiency is given by: Tl n = 1 - -- Th where n = thermal efficiency Tl = temperature of low temp. reservoir ( Atmosphere in this case ) Th = temperature of high temp. reservoir ( Combustion temp ) "The thermal efficiency of actual heat engines can be maximized by supplying heat to the engine at the highest possible temperature (limited by material strength) and rejecting heat from the engine at the lowest possible temperature." Source: Cengel y, & Boles M. Thermodynamics: An Engineering Approach Get hold of any elementary thermodynamics textbook for more info. Chris Howard Computer Science University of New South Wales (was Mech. Eng @ Sydney University) email: s2184002@cse.unsw.edu.au Web: http://www.usyd.edu.au/~choward From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 15:32:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23809; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:11:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kodakr.kodak.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23804; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:10:56 -0400 Received: from knotes.kodak.com by kodakr.kodak.com with SMTP id AA25813 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <@Kodakr.kodak.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu>); Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:10:41 -0400 Received: by knotes.Kodak.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.2)/1.0) id AA2978; Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:25:18 -0700 Message-Id: <9609171825.AA2978@knotes.Kodak.com> Received: by Kodak (Lotus Notes Mail Gateway for SMTP V1.1) id F32AF6E4544D5B6A852563A80052F23B; Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:25:18 EDT To: DIY EFI Maillist , Thor Johnson From: Brian J Hanson/OIIS/EKC Date: 17 Sep 96 11:08:43 EDT Subject: Re: Looking for a price/supplier for a Honda F2 EFI X-Importance: High Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >One the reqs for sr design is to evaluate the build/buy decisition >(though I like building things). So I am looking for an aftermarket >Honda F2 (599 cc, 13000 rpm motorcycle) EFI unit. Any sources? I might look in a junk yard for a recked bike to get this off of. Honda parts are quite expensive(believe me, they steal a bunch of $$ everytime I need to do maintenance on my F3). Another source might be to look at the Vance & Hines upgrade system. It isn't a Fuel Injection system tho(These are carbed engines). The V&H computer gives you variable timing with the turn of a dial and I believe it's in the $350 range(Don't remember exactly tho..I might be way off) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 15:57:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23853; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:40:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from anvil.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23848; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:30 -0400 Received: from acmex.gatech.edu (acmex.gatech.edu [130.207.165.22]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15565 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Ennis Bragg Received: (from gt9803a@localhost) by acmex.gatech.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20113 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609171540.LAA20113@acmex.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199609170133.LAA08943@shiva.trl.OZ.AU> from "Craig Pugsley" at Sep 17, 96 11:33:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, > Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages > of cool stuff in it. > > Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? Here's some info out of an ad in SCCA's Sportscar magazine.(Sept.96,pg43) Kinsler Fuel Injection 1834-K Thunderbird Troy, MI 48084 Phone: 810-362-1145 Fax: 810-362-1032 Send check or money order. no COD or credit cards are accepted for catalog Catalog Price: $12.00 (US) "Our 92 page handbook/catalog is the bible on RACING FUEL INJECTION." This is all straight from their add. hope it helps Ennis -- Ennis Bragg gt9803a@prism.gatech.edu http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/gt9803a/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 16:28:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23907; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:15:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23901; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:15:00 -0400 Received: from i2-143.islandnet.com [198.53.172.143] by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1) with smtp id m0v32n3-000VzBC for ; Tue, 17 Sep 96 09:14 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 09:14 PDT X-Sender: iii@mail.islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) Subject: Microcontroller shielding questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All, I am designing a small (2"x2") controller board for use in the automotive and robotics industries. The board is based on the MC68HC16Z1 microcontroller. Since the engine compartment of a car is filled with EMI we are attempting to make the board as resistant as possible to the effects of the EMI. Since I don't know the specifics of the sources of EMI a an automobile I would appreciate anyone who could help me with the following questions and maybe give some extra advice on things I have not asked about but are of concern in this type of design. What are the frequency and voltage levels of noise present in the typical automobile (EFI, and carburettor type)? What is the strength of the magnetic waves created by spark plugs and/or distributors? What is currently done to protect against it? What type of wire is used to connect a controller to the rest of the system (shielded, unshielded, twisted pair)? Can anyone give me some information on how to determined the type of shielding to use (box type and thickness, feed through type and value)? What is necessary? What is commonly used and what is affordable? Thanks in advance, Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 17:36:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA24002; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:24:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23997; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:24:46 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:27:26 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Timing - Ignition Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:25:23 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369166450-8027392@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Subject: Ignition timing in conjunction with EFI There appears to exist a number of sensors to build an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock sensor that just tells me - oops too much - self destruct sequence initiated. Factory curves and random published curves are all that most without dynes have to work with. Back in the bad old days, (pre computer) the killer secret for street tuning was to advance the static initial timing watching rpm and vacuum, until you got the max you could get and still start the engine, then put a sping kit in adjust the mechanical until the total was the same as what ever your guru of choice had dicated. Look for ping or knock, then put some more in. It works but had too much PFM (Pure F___ng Majic) to be reliable for all engines. Since then, many bandaid seem to have appeared. Since we now have computers, we should be able to monitor something other than self destruct imminent and tweak and peak the timing in conjunction with the fuel to get optimum power and economy. I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. Remember the Reichstag ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 19:51:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA24239; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:45:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24232; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:44:57 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA26527 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:45:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199609171945.OAA26527@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:50:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Looking for a price/supplier for a Honda F2 EFI Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >One the reqs for sr design is to evaluate the build/buy decisition > >(though I like building things). So I am looking for an aftermarket > >Honda F2 (599 cc, 13000 rpm motorcycle) EFI unit. Any sources? > > I might look in a junk yard for a recked bike to get this off of. Honda parts > are quite expensive(believe me, they steal a bunch of $$ everytime I need to do The closest thing I can think of would be Yamaha's GTS1000. Good luck finding one in the junk yard though. This FI 4cyl 1000cc wasn't a big seller. A friend has a '93 and isn't exactly impressed with its warmup characteristics considering its injected. There is also a FI harley and BMWs I believe, but those probably wouldn't do much for you. If this was a real life adventure I think I'd personally stick with the method honda chose - pretty hard to improve upon if emissions aren't a critical factor. Good Luck -mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 22:19:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA24432; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:16:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA24427; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:16:42 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20481>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:17:22 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep18.101722nzst.20481@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:09:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: Re: Timing - again X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Well it's time for me to challenge some with more edu than me, but I'm {snip snipetty snip} >if you can agree on why this is? I was going to mention a guy who makes engine computers here in NZ, who I talked to once - I asked how he set spark on the dyno before customers took their "hotted up" cars away, and he said that it was mainly guesswork maximising torque etc, but you could sometimes look for a reduction in torque as spark advanced, prior to knock. (he has worked on many different types of cars, including jap) I was going to mention him, but Todd blew my words away - if you're new to this list it wont take long to figure out who to listen to... I will mention talking to Robbie Francevic, who told me that when he was driving turbo Volvos in touring cars, they got max power when knock was just starting, and infact when they stuck a scope down the plug hole you could see the tiny pock marks in the top of the piston around the crown. Are turbo engines different to normally aspirated in this regard, due to any reason apart from c.chamber design etc., I wonder? Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) Anybody need a race car driver? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 22:32:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA24457; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:28:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA24452; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:28:08 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA09241; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:30:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:30:43 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: steam! To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1369338031-10139302@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: "Robert J. Harris" > .... >What you will have is the problems of external combustion and water >recycling to have sufficient range. Railroads had water towers at frequent ***** >intervals to avoid carrying more than a couple of hundred tons of water and >coal at a time. > .... That's exactly what I've heard for the reasons of the demise of steam locomotives.. Roughly 100 miles range between water stops. There's also the pollution problem of soot from the burning coal, but I imagine that could be overcome today. I believe the maintenance issues of steam are also more costly than with diesels. -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 17 23:49:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA24612; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:46:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA24607; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:46:23 -0400 Received: from cep40.mtco.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/07Aug96-0204PM) id AA16437; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:45:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:45:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9609172345.AA16437@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Re: Haltech E6 EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jeromy wrote: (clip) >The haltech software has a function call "QuickMAP" which will generate >some ruff fuel maps from a few simple inputs. Now I put the standard >inputs in, but the map created seems to be much to rich. The standard >inputs are 2.3ms injector time at idle, ~10ms at full power... I think >these are wrong? These numbers depend greatly on the injector sizes. But at these times, your injectors would have to be almost too small for the engine. Try 8ms at full throttle and 1.5 to 1.8 ms at idle. You will just have to experiment to get a close value. Remember the bigger the injector, the smaller the on time at idle. Full throttle time depends on the engine hp cabability. David J. Doddek |pantera@pobox.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 00:20:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24663; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:17:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA24658; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:17:30 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA18142; Wed, 18 Sep 96 07:14:35 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843060305 Wed, 18 Sep 96 08:25:05 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 08:25:05 Message-Id: <9608188430.AA843060305@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Microcontroller shielding questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Get hold of the European EMC standards, they have a section specifically on automotives. ie, the levels you have to test too for compliance. I guess that if you can design to pass these levels, you'll be OK. Give someone like the UK consulate a call, they should be able to help you with the relevant section of the standards and any other info you want. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Microcontroller shielding questions Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/17/96 9:14 AM Hi All, I am designing a small (2"x2") controller board for use in the automotive and robotics industries. The board is based on the MC68HC16Z1 microcontroller. Since the engine compartment of a car is filled with EMI we are attempting to make the board as resistant as possible to the effects of the EMI. Since I don't know the specifics of the sources of EMI a an automobile I would appreciate anyone who could help me with the following questions and maybe give some extra advice on things I have not asked about but are of concern in this type of design. What are the frequency and voltage levels of noise present in the typical automobile (EFI, and carburettor type)? What is the strength of the magnetic waves created by spark plugs and/or distributors? What is currently done to protect against it? What type of wire is used to connect a controller to the rest of the system (shielded, unshielded, twisted pair)? Can anyone give me some information on how to determined the type of shielding to use (box type and thickness, feed through type and value)? What is necessary? What is commonly used and what is affordable? Thanks in advance, Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 00:22:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24688; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:21:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA24683; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:21:50 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p1s21.beaches.net [206.240.81.121]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA09979 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609180021.TAA09979@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Dyno Stuff Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:48:48 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Just might be useful to look at as an absorber for a dyno. Of course > Mr. Thermodynamics and other anally retentive types will quote me > physics books saying its impossible - and the fact it is in production > by a major heavy truck parts manufacturer will make little difference. Robert, I guess you weren't reading the thread a while back about using a "Telma" (another brand name for the device you describe) as a dynamometer. This has been mentioned but no one has posted many details for using one. It is an interesting idea though. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 01:08:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA24745; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:06:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA24740; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:06:11 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA17902 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:06:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:06:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: steam! In-Reply-To: <1369338031-10139302@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Good luck with your project. Sounds intriguing. John On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > Remember the Reichstag > > ---------- > > From: talltom > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: steam! > > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 11:59 PM > > > > > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water > when it's > > been thru the engine?(Water isn't as plentyful as it used to be) Short of > making > > a deal with wppss(Another conceptually and financially bankrupt govt. - > > washington public power supply system.) on a unused cooling tower that > is.? > > > If you are truly interested in steam engines, the late 40's Americans seem > to > represent the height of the technology. The south Africans used condensers > and recycled the water on some of their steam engines. On many tender > mounted booster engines the low pressure exhaust steam was vented directly > back into the water supply. > > With a steam piston engine, transmissions are totally useless. Cut of > steam = > parked, stopped - no need to idle. Move valve to "forward", go forward. > Move > valve to reverse, go backwards. Change direction by changing how steam > admitted. RPM limit is the destruction limit of engine. Torque limit is > by PSI > and size of piston. Think of how small loco pistons were in comparison to > the 10,000 plus ton loads they sometimes carried. Also, road locomotives > were almost universally limited to 300 PSI or less. > > What you will have is the problems of external combustion and water > recycling > to have sufficient range. Railroads had water towers at frequent > intervals to > avoid carrying more than a couple of hundred tons of water and coal at a > time. > > If they told you about 1200 PSI steam and the power from it, remember that > it is made at half the temperature reached in an IC engine. For the > skeptics, > remember - 1cc of liquid water state changed to vapor (boiled) makes about > 1800 cc of vapor. Not a bad little expansion ration. > > What I am tying to do is first build a self tuning controllable EFI for > petrol fuels > and then, inject a precisely metered amount of additional H2O to get the > power > of steam from the excess heat and avoid all the external combustion > hassles. > > No it would not be as efficient as an external combustion engine, but it > would > be far simpler and I believe could develope a lot more power than the same > amount of fuel in a straight IC engine. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 01:08:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA24737; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:05:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA24732; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:05:02 -0400 Received: from van-as-08a16.direct.ca ([204.174.249.160]) by orb.direct.ca with SMTP id <30187-1038>; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:04:50 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:45:03 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: GM Coolant sensor Message-Id: <96Sep17.180450-0700pdt.30187-1038+455@orb.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All Here is some more sensor data for you guys. Gm used the same sensor as a coolant sensor, a air temp sensor, and a oil temp sensor. GM TEMP SENSOR DATA TEMP(C) RESISTANCE VOLTS 100 177 1.29 90 241 1.8 80 332 2.24 70 467 2.6 60 667 3.0 50 973 3.6//1.0 45 1188 1.2 40 1459 1.28 35 1802 1.45 30 2238 1.85 25 2796 2.05 20 3520 2.4 15 4450 2.88 10 5670 3.1 5 7280 3.35 0 9420 3.5 -20 28680 4.4 -40 100700 4.9 The kink in the curve is because GM uses a 348 ohm pullup above 50 degrees. Below it uses a 348 ohm in series with a 3.65K resistor as a pullup. A temp range of -40 to 151 degrees gives a range of 0-255H. GL: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 01:15:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA24780; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:15:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA24773; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:15:14 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA18938 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:15:13 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:15:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Math Question In-Reply-To: <1369290258-581715@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets go with that number. If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. John On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > Remember the Reichstag > > ---------- > > From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: re: Math Question > > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM > > > > > > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer > > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. > > > > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then > > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most > > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency > > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can > > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is > > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is > > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. > > (ie the knock limit) > > > > > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, convert > between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling > water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or > more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature > - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little > teeny > tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber - > as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. > > I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is > about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes > characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times > when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. > It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any > of that wasted heat might get converted to power. > > Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 03:41:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA24947; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 03:38:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA24942; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:38:21 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA20719; Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:37:45 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843072255 Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:44:15 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:44:15 Message-Id: <9608188430.AA843072255@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier for analogue circuitry. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: GM Coolant sensor Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/18/96 10:52 AM Hi All Here is some more sensor data for you guys. Gm used the same sensor as a coolant sensor, a air temp sensor, and a oil temp sensor. GM TEMP SENSOR DATA TEMP(C) RESISTANCE VOLTS 100 177 1.29 90 241 1.8 80 332 2.24 70 467 2.6 60 667 3.0 50 973 3.6//1.0 45 1188 1.2 40 1459 1.28 35 1802 1.45 30 2238 1.85 25 2796 2.05 20 3520 2.4 15 4450 2.88 10 5670 3.1 5 7280 3.35 0 9420 3.5 -20 28680 4.4 -40 100700 4.9 The kink in the curve is because GM uses a 348 ohm pullup above 50 degrees. Below it uses a 348 ohm in series with a 3.65K resistor as a pullup. A temp range of -40 to 151 degrees gives a range of 0-255H. GL: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 05:15:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA25103; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:12:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA25098; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:12:25 -0400 Received: from pmeU00.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU00.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.1]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id WAA16128 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609180512.WAA16128@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Microcontroller shielding questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:14 AM 9/17/96 PDT, Wade Barnes wrote: >I am designing a small (2"x2") controller board for use in the automotive >and robotics industries. The board is based on the MC68HC16Z1 >microcontroller. Since the engine compartment of a car is filled with EMI >we are attempting to make the board as resistant as possible to the effects >of the EMI. >Can anyone give me some information on how to determined the type of >shielding to use (box type and thickness, feed through type and value)? >What is necessary? What is commonly used and what is affordable? Sorry, I can't quantify any of the EMI/RFI effects that you mentioned, I'd be surprised if anyone could. Mebbe stick the car in a Faraday cage and see what you get. As far as processor shielding, you would at least need a good metal enclosure, some of the commercially available die cast aluminum boxes would be ideal. All wiring entering or leaving the box should run through a feedthrough RFI filter. The RFI filtered feedthrough DB style connectors from Conec are very good. They have a ferrite core through which all pins run, some also have feedthrough capacitors. The important thing here is to have the bypass caps grounded to the box right where the wire comes through the box. Bypass caps on the circuit board are not enough. Even an inch of unbypassed wire in the box is enough to radiate RFI sufficient to scramble the processor. Panasonic and Phillips make nifty little RFI filters which are essentially a feedthrough capacitor with a ferrite bead on each side of the through line, forming a pi filter. They are very effective. Filtering on the supply lines is a must, both power and ground, as well as protection against transients and load dump. Signal lines will also require transient protection as well. Use differential inputs on analog leads wherever possible, this will minimize the effects of common mode noise and ground differentials. Shielded leads on all inputs are also a good idea, but remember not to use the shield as a current carrying conductor and only ground it at one end. Use hard pullups on digital signals, and generally keep impedances low to minimize noise pickup. Take a tip from the OEM's and use the body as shielding, ie mount the computer on the passenger compartment side of the firewall. You'll generally find that the protection and filtering circuitry that you need will take up more board space than the controller itself, you'll have a hard time fitting all this on a 2x2 board... Consider making the system building block style, with the controller as a piggyback module on the signal conditioning board. In this way, you can keep the controller generic, and just make different signal conditioning boards for different applications. Some of the stuff I have suggested may seem like overkill, but it's much better to overdesign the first time for any contingency. A few dollars worth of extra components will save many hours of dinking around later. Good luck, and keep us posted. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 08:23:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA25333; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:11:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA25328; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:11:47 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:11:27 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 18 Sep 96 09:11:35 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 18 Sep 96 09:11:14 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:11:06 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Timing - Ignition Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <169BB8400A@ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Since we now have computers, we should be able to > monitor something other than self destruct imminent and > tweak and peak the timing in conjunction with the fuel > to get optimum power and economy. > > I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. By monitoring the pressure in the combustion chamber you can judge how well the ignition system is working, the problem with this is the price of the probes and the charge amplifiers required. Another method is the spark ionisation. Add another spark around 15 degrees after TDC. The cylinder pressure should be at a peak around here. Then measure how long it takes for the ionisation current to decay from the spark. This will tell you how much burning mixture there is at the time. This is currently what I am looking at. Another one you could try is looking at crankshaft acceleration. Again something I will look at in the near future. By measuring the max and min speed of the crankshaft you can tell which cylinders are firing better than others and hopefully sort out the timing and fuelling for them. There will be problems with noise from the drivetrain however. So there are ways, it is just a case of time and money and having the right equipment to measure what is happening and see if it will be useful. Martin From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 09:42:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA25506; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:41:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA25501; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:41:30 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05963; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:41:29 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA556.296B77E0@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:40:16 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA556.296B77E0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'John Napoli'" Subject: RE: Math Question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:06:24 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) Mark ---------- From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Math Question This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets go with that number. If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. John On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > Remember the Reichstag > > ---------- > > From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: re: Math Question > > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM > > > > > > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer > > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. > > > > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then > > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most > > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency > > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can > > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is > > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is > > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. > > (ie the knock limit) > > > > > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, convert > between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling > water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or > more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature > - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little > teeny > tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber - > as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. > > I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is > about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes > characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times > when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. > It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any > of that wasted heat might get converted to power. > > Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 09:42:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA25492; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:41:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA25482; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:41:06 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05955; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:41:04 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA556.1AF2A260@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:39:52 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA556.1AF2A260@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" , "'James Weiler'" Subject: RE: Off limits Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:59:53 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for the note dude: I'm intending to start from scratch, having read everything else, I dont = think I can do it any better, but I will learn a fair bit re-inventing = the wheel ! I thought about using somebody elses electronics, but I have = to get into designing in the engine compartment( besides which, I didnt = buy a UV light box to etch PCBs with for nothing!.. I'd better be seen = to be using it else my young lady will go apeshit about the pair of = shoes she didnt get) Mark. ---------- From: James Weiler[SMTP:james@brc.ubc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 4:22 PM To: Mark Pitts Subject: Re: Off limits On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Seems to me we are getting way way off topic guys, much as I enjoy the = steam thing that is going on, and the discussion of weird heads and = valves, I suspect that building new heads, or trying to perfect the = automotive steam engine is way out of most of our capabilitys. >=20 > I've decided to start my project by building a mapped ignition for a 4 = ,6 or 8 Cyl engine, with advance by looking up a pre programmed MAP and = engine speed map in eprom. >=20 > Havnt chosen the uP yet.. but I've given myself till Christmas (as = that is the next time I'll see my ride 9boo sob snif) >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 Howdy Mark. Can I suggest using an EEC-IV ECU . This wonderfull device = uses part throttle and WOT spark maps for it's ignition. I don't know = if=20 it will function if it's not running the injectors though. You'd know=20 more about fooling it than I. Just a thought. P.S. I've seen a web site for a digital ign. system. I think you can = get=20 to it from the DIY EFI home page. You've probably already checked this=20 one out though. later dude jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 09:42:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA25499; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:41:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA25494; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:41:24 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05959; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:41:12 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA556.1FBA63A0@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:40:00 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA556.1FBA63A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'John Faubion'" Subject: RE: Dyno Stuff Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:04:06 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I started the whole thread as a 'Lets take a truck axle, and use its = brakes as a dyno for short power runs. I'll be interested in the Telma thing, if I could find out a rough = price... But I still think for short power runs, and my back bocket, the = old axle idea is going to be the cheapest for me! (but I have access to = engineering stuff for making up adapter plates etc.) mark ---------- From: John Faubion[SMTP:jfaubion@beaches.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:49 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Dyno Stuff > Just might be useful to look at as an absorber for a dyno. Of course > Mr. Thermodynamics and other anally retentive types will quote me > physics books saying its impossible - and the fact it is in production > by a major heavy truck parts manufacturer will make little difference. Robert, I guess you weren't reading the thread a while back about using = a "Telma" (another brand name for the device you describe) as a = dynamometer. This has been mentioned but no one has posted many details for using = one. It is an interesting idea though. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 09:42:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA25491; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:41:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA25480; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:41:05 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05951; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:41:00 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA556.183AD560@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:39:47 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA556.183AD560@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'Robert J. Harris'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Timing - Ignition Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:27:48 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi If there aren't any good ideas, better go and buy some new pistons Mark ;-) ---------- From: Robert J. Harris[SMTP:bob@bobthecomputerguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 7:25 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Timing - Ignition Subject: Ignition timing in conjunction with EFI There appears to exist a number of sensors to build an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock sensor that just tells me - oops too much - self destruct sequence initiated. Factory curves and random published curves are all that most without dynes have to work with. Back in the bad old days, (pre computer) the killer secret for street tuning was to advance the static initial timing watching rpm and vacuum, until you got the max you could get and still start the engine, then put a sping kit in adjust the mechanical until the total was the same as what ever your guru of choice had dicated. Look for ping or knock, then put some more in. It works but had too much PFM (Pure F___ng Majic) to be reliable for all engines. Since then, many bandaid seem to have appeared. Since we now have computers, we should be able to monitor something other than self destruct imminent and tweak and peak the timing in conjunction with the fuel to get optimum power and economy. I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. Remember the Reichstag ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 10:31:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA25615; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:30:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diabolo.upc.es by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA25610; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:30:08 -0400 Received: from petrus.upc.es by diabolo.upc.es (5.x/SMI-4.1) id AA25189; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:29:44 +0200 Received: from triac.upc.es (triac.upc.es [147.83.99.126]) by petrus.upc.es (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19349 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:22:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <323FCD82.3F69@eel.upc.es> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:22:58 +0200 From: Marta Puig Organization: DEE-UPC X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Injection systems prices Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Anybody knows how much ist a L-Jetronic or a Motronic injection system? Tell me please, where can I it find. Lady M from Spain. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 11:39:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA25826; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:34:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.microserve.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA25821; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:34:36 -0400 Received: from reality by mail.microserve.net with SMTP (8.6.10/25-eef) id HAA03126; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:33:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:34:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Snyder X-Sender: jsnyder@reality To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor In-Reply-To: <9608188430.AA843072255@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 dzorde@aesprodata.com.au wrote: > > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > You could use an inverter. Jay From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 12:09:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA26206; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:07:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26201; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:13 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA30658 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:09:47 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA02515; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Math Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, John Napoli wrote: I would like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. What about turbos? Does anyone have any data on whether adding a turbo charger increases thermodynamic effeciency? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 12:43:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA26544; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:41:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26539; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:41:21 -0400 Received: from slip-70-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30100; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:41:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:41:19 -0500 Message-Id: <9609181241.AA30100@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au I thought that's what inverting amps were for. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 13:30:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26638; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:25:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26633; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:25:51 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA20948; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:25:14 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: Mark Pitts cc: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Math Question In-Reply-To: <01BBA556.296B77E0@speed.demon.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes, and the key phrase is 'to an extent'. There is still a lot of waste heat out the tail pipe and in the radiator and etc. A turbo is a step in the right direction but there are still a lot of BTUs being 'wasted'. John On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) > > Mark > > ---------- > From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Math Question > > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). > > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. > > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets > go with that number. > > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. > > John > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 15:57:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26991; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:45:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA26986; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:45:22 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:47:59 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Dyno Stuff Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:36:11 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369086017-12864753@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mark, DYI_EFI EMF retarders have been around for at least 15 years on various heavy vehicles like trucks, buss's etc. Used one's should be available in heavy vehicle boneyanrds. Newer ones are smaller, lighter and cost more. Prices vary by customer attitude, time of day, need for commission and just for the fun of it - typical boneyard pricing structure. Old city buss's typically have them - Jake Brake's suck in rich neighborhoods. They fit in the driveline - after the transmission - sort of like an overdirve transmission kit. Will post the cost and dimensions when I get them. Sorry I missed the opening parts of the dyno thread. Remember the Reichstag - don' let Billie repeat it From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 17:05:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27079; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:56:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27074; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:56:33 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA09959; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:59:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:59:10 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1369086017-12864753@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: "Robert J. Harris" >>Mark, DYI_EFI >> >>EMF retarders have been around for at least 15 years on various >>heavy vehicles like trucks, buss's etc. Used one's should be >>available in heavy vehicle boneyanrds. Newer ones are smaller, >>lighter and cost more. Prices vary by customer attitude, time >>of day, need for commission and just for the fun of it - typical >>boneyard pricing structure. Old city buss's typically have >>them - Jake Brake's suck in rich neighborhoods. The Jake Brake (Jacobs engine brake) on trucks don't work by EMF. It causes the engine to become an air compressor when the driver engages it (typically when they take their foot completely off the throttle). They have a Jacobs driveline brake which does work by EMF. Their WWW site: http://www.jakebrake.com >> >>They fit in the driveline - after the transmission - sort of like an >>overdirve transmission kit. Will post the cost and dimensions >>when I get them. Sorry I missed the opening parts of the >>dyno thread. >> >> >> >>Remember the Reichstag - don' let Billie repeat it >> -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 17:05:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27092; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:01:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA27087; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:01:15 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA06526; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:00:52 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA593.8C59EDE0@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:59:41 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA593.8C59EDE0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'John Napoli'" , Mark Pitts Cc: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Math Question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:58:09 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thought I was vaguely on the right track.... Now.... Water. Is this the case: Water absorbs energy as it does the transition from liquid to gas. This = transition is 1 Joule per cc. So by letting the water absorb the energy, without increasing gas temp, = but definitly increasing cylinder pressure, we are absorbing heat, and = turning it into torque??? Just want to make sure that I'm not being stupid! Mark ;-) ---------- From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 11:25 AM To: Mark Pitts Cc: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Math Question Yes, and the key phrase is 'to an extent'. There is still a lot of = waste heat out the tail pipe and in the radiator and etc. A turbo is a step = in the right direction but there are still a lot of BTUs being 'wasted'. John On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in = diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) >=20 > Mark >=20 > ---------- > From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Math Question >=20 > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). >=20 > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run = their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is = pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. >=20 > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in = the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but = lets > go with that number. >=20 > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that = make a > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter = cars, we > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI = software > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would = like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. >=20 > John >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 19:00:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA27284; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:47:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27279; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:47:40 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial001h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.66]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA05066 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <324042B6.24B@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:43:02 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injection systems prices References: <323FCD82.3F69@eel.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Marta Puig wrote: > > Anybody knows how much ist a L-Jetronic or a Motronic injection > system? Tell me please, where can I it find. > > Lady M from Spain. Lady M, We typically see used computers from the 911's in the $300.00 to $600.00 range. Rebuilt cores go for around $650.00 U.S.Dollars. These are Motronics units from the 84-89 911's The later stuff costs more. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 19:01:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA27295; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:53:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27290; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:53:22 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:55:32 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:54:20 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369074764-13541159@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi No scat sherlock, noisy as hell and not found like EMF units on buss's and other vehicles that have to operate in quiet neighborhoods. All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - Remember the Reichstag!!! ---------- > From: Doug Rorem > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 9:59 AM > > The Jake Brake (Jacobs engine brake) on trucks don't work by EMF. It > causes the engine to become an air compressor when the driver engages > it (typically when they take their foot completely off the throttle). They > have a Jacobs driveline brake which does work by EMF. Their WWW site: > > http://www.jakebrake.com > > >> From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 19:31:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27366; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:20:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from device.data.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA27358; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:19:43 -0400 Received: by device.data.co.za id aa07117; 18 Sep 96 21:10 sat Subject: Re: Math Question To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:09:17 +0200 (sat) From: Kalle Pihlajasaari In-Reply-To: <01BBA593.8C59EDE0@speed.demon.nl> from "Mark Pitts" at Sep 18, 96 06:58:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1941 Message-ID: <9609182109.aa07113@device.data.co.za> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, > Thought I was vaguely on the right track.... Now.... Water. > > Is this the case: > > Water absorbs energy as it does the transition from liquid to gas. This = > transition is 1 Joule per cc. It is one Joule / deg / cc of specific heat (not a phase change) For the latent heat of vaporisation it is many Joules / cc (like 1500 Joules or something) This is why steam burns you much worse than boiling hot water. > So by letting the water absorb the energy, without increasing gas temp, = > but definitly increasing cylinder pressure, we are absorbing heat, and = > turning it into torque??? Well turning to pressure, remember the burn quality will be compromised at some point from too much water but you certainly will get more steam. Also the problem with steam is if it starts to condense at high pressure at the lower portion of the cylinder then you have a sudden drop in pressure. All the other noxious gasses will not condense until they get real cold and then only some of them. The waste heat problem is also somewhat under scrutiny by the ceramic motor people who want to do away with cooling and run the engine hot for a good burn but not loose the heat in a radiator, just reaise teh temp once and then use better design to make the engined more adiabatic (I think the word is) and circulate the heat. Turbines all use regenerators to get some of the heat back from the exhaust gasses into the compressed air, they do not have the ait density problem of valved engines so are able to increase the pressure and air velocity to make up for the hotter input air. What sort of electronics are to be found in turbine and Wankel cars. They came out long time ago with mechanical fueling but the occasional few these days might have electronics, dunno. Cheers -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@data.co.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 19:36:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27380; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:29:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.microserve.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA27375; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:29:26 -0400 Received: from reality by mail.microserve.net with SMTP (8.6.10/25-eef) id PAA00960; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:28:46 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:29:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Snyder X-Sender: jsnyder@reality To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What is an EMF retarder? -- J. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 20:33:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA27477; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:20:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA27472; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:20:30 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA10315; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:23:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:23:06 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>What is an EMF retarder? >> >>-- J. >> >> EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking system that is mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. When an electric current is fed to the brake, it passes through coils and creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field creates drag. This drag opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the vehicle down. -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 22:15:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA27705; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:03:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA27700; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:03:46 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.114]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA06364 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:22:46 +0200 Message-ID: <323D4B2D.66C4@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:42:21 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Math Question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Napoli wrote: > > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). > > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. > > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets > go with that number. I had the same feeeling before . in fact I plan to build some peltier-cells on my engine to charge my battery who knows ? maybe I can eliminate the generator and save power BTW does anybody knows how the H-O cells work ? is it possible to build one wich work with gasoline and air to produce electricity ? the heat-cells work at a 70-80% eff. range bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 18 22:26:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA27735; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:17:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA27730; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:16:58 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id PAA29678 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:16:56 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id PAA06097 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:16:54 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id PAA08099 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:24:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:24:41 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960918152303.3aff17f4@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What is typically used for the source of the electric current? me At 03:23 PM 9/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>What is an EMF retarder? >>> >>>-- J. >>> >>> >EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force > >from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html > >The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking system that is >mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. When an electric current is >fed to the brake, it passes through coils and creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field >creates drag. This drag opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the >vehicle down. > >-- >Doug Rorem >University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] >EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] >851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] >Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 00:39:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28014; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:28:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28009; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:28:02 -0400 Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:28:47 +1000 To: diy_efi From: lambs@HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Cc: "Robert J. Harris" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - > Remember the Reichstag!!! OK,OK.........enough already. The first few times was a vague annoyance.....but now I just delete the messages that start with this 'tag' without bothering with the rest of the message. Apparently it has something more to do with American politics than the actual Reichstag incident (which I DO know a little about). Whatever....it has little to do with this list, please take it to alt.politics (or something like that). This is NOT a flame - and a flame war will not be entered into - just a cry that enough is enough. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 00:55:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28230; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:46:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28225; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:46:43 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max4.50.westworld.com [205.230.57.192]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA16660 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:46:32 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960919004945.008f2290@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes, I have it. Their is some good things in it.They get I think 12 buck for it. And their prices are kinda' expensive. The have a lot of older EFI (continous flow hilborn) stuff. Just call them up, they take plastic. Sandy At 11:33 AM 9/17/96 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, > >I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, >Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages >of cool stuff in it. > >Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? > >Cheers, >Craig. >pugsley@trl.oz.au > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 00:55:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28223; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:46:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28218; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:46:07 -0400 From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us Received: from jac.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip4.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.44]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA18174 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:48:25 -0600 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 18:30:14 PDT Subject: waste heat To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi An excellent opportunity for waste heat utilization is to run all of the accessories from a small turbine or piston motor driven by a the expansion of a fluid heated by exhaust heat. Most cars are already packing around some of key the components in the form of an air conditioning system. If there is any excess power after the electric, power steering, heating and other needs are met, feed it back into the power train through a belt with an alternator tricked up as a brushless DC motor. While your at it figure out a piezo electric device in a can to make electricity out of noise to replace the conventional muffler. john carroll ------------------------------------- jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us 09/18/96 18:30:14 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 00:55:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28216; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:45:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28211; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:45:40 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA03046; Thu, 19 Sep 96 07:45:07 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843148124 Thu, 19 Sep 96 08:48:44 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 08:48:44 Message-Id: <9608198431.AA843148124@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi That is what they are for, but wouldn,t it be great to get rid of an op-amp. Hence try and reduce the amount of circuitry required. Something like a simple LCD temp read out (very useful for diff, gearbox and water in race cars), temp sensor, a small resistor divider and a panel meter, and its guarranteed to be very reliable, once you start throwing in op-amps, etc. you need very steady power supply rails to avoid inaccurate readings. So is there a positive temp coefficient sensor around ? (could always make one if I have to, but its easier if there's a car that's already using one). Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/18/96 11:19 PM > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au I thought that's what inverting amps were for. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 01:14:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28289; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:03:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA28284; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:02:57 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id SAA14776 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32403996.1991@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:04:06 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Electromotive Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hellppp. Got stuck with this car that has an old Electromotive TEC-I with a 23D eprom and it needs a program called "CAL" to work with it. Anybody out there have one or know where to get it. In the Electromotive Manual it gives a description of the units/eproms/calibration software and next to this one it says (obsolete), oh boy, more fun! If anyone has worked with this system maybe you could answer this question. We got the car with no calibration software, and according to the manual there's no way to upload the parameters from the unit to the PC, or is there? It looks like all you can do is download from the PC to the Electromotive TEC unit so do we have to start all over again, even though we have a calibration that's mildly close to where it should be? Any help would be appreciated! <:( Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 03:22:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA28530; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:12:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA28525; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:12:35 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA10678; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:15:11 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:15:11 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960918152303.3aff17f4@tempepop> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>What is typically used for the source of the electric current? me I assume it's the vehicle's 12V (or 24V?) electrical system. The Jacobs Driveline brake takes quite a bit of current (249 Amps worst case!). This would mean a fairly hefty power source would be required for use in a dyno. They (Jacobs) also don't really say what the duty cycle of the device is.. It probably overheats if you try to use it continuously. As someone noted previously, it seems easier to create rotating energy than it is to get rid of it! [table from] http://www.jakebrake.com/products/perftables/tDriveBrake.html Jacobs Braking Max. Brake Weight Amperage Max. Vehicle Weight Models HP@RPM* Torque (lbs.) Drawn Stop & Go weight Long (ft lbs)** (Amps) Descent (lbs) 12JC10 134 @ 2500 289 154 115 13,800 8,000 12JC12 152 @ 2500 362 225 123 15,400 8,800 12JC16 198 @ 2500 470 227 149 17,600 11,000 12JC20 265 @ 2500 579 267 166 19,800 13,200 12JC25 332 @ 2500 723 322 145 28,600 15,400 12JC30 403 @ 2500 868 379 249 39,000 26,000 12JC40 483 @ 2500 1,157 534 177 41,800 33,000 12JC50 559 @ 2500 1,447 736 187 48,400 37,400 12JC65 728 @ 2500 1,881 864 184 96,800 73,700 12JC75 766 @ 2500 2,170 948 197 110,000 83,600 12JC80 817 @ 2500 2,315 977 213 110,000 88,000 12JC10LC 134 @ 2500 289 267 41.1 13,800 8,000 12JC12LC 152 @ 2500 362 322 36.3 15,400 8,800 12JC16LC 198 @ 2500 470 379 62.25 17,600 11,000 * Estimated ** Torque values are a more precise measurement of braking performance. >> >>At 03:23 PM 9/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>>>What is an EMF retarder? >>>>> >>>>>-- J. >>>>> >>>EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force >>> >>>from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html >>> >>>The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking >>>system that is mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. >>>When an electric current is fed to the brake, it passes through coils and >>>creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field creates drag. This drag >>>opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the >>>vehicle down. >>> -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 04:22:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA28641; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:09:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA28636; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:09:33 -0400 Received: from crl7.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA09279 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:10:05 -0700 Received: by crl7.crl.com id AA19839 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:55:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi {electro mumble jumble deleted} But this isn't how Jakes used to work, is it. I rode in trucks with Jakes when I was too young to understand just how they worked [someone tell us!] but the sound was wonderful! --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 04:33:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA28677; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA28669; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:22:29 -0400 Received: from ttyD46.redding.snowcrest.net (ttyD46.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.102]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA11907 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:22:25 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:22:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199609190422.VAA11907@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Jennifer Rose Subject: GM eprom help Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello All I would like to get some information on how to change the settings in a GM eprom. My project vehicle is a 74 Chevy pickup with a TPI unit out of a 86 Camaro. The unit has been in the truck for about a year. Wanted to use code for a 89 eprom, so the cold start injector can be removed. Need to bypass the vehicle anti theft (VATS) part of programming. Thanks in advance for the help. Thanks Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 05:17:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA28757; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 05:08:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA28746; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:08:04 -0400 Received: from pmeU17.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU17.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.18]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id WAA02061 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609190508.WAA02061@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:44 AM 9/18/96, Dan wrote: > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > There are a couple of solid state sensors which come to mind. Analog Devices has the AD590, which is a current output device. It outputs a current of 1uA per degree Kelvin. Thus, at 0C it delivers 273uA, and at 100C it delivers 373uA. Run this through a resistor and you have whatever voltage you want, but you still have to deal with the offset. The other device worth looking into is the National Semiconductor LM34/35 series. This device puts out 10 mV per degree C (LM35) or degree F (LM34), but in most cases requires a negative supply voltage to get temp readings below zero. Unfortunately, neither is going to eliminate the opamp, since both signal levels are too low for most A/D converters, and both will need some offset to allow readings of temps below zero. There are positive temp coefficient thermistors available, but thermistors are very nonlinear. BTW, just because a thermistor has a negative tempco, doesn't mean you can only get a negative slope voltage out of it. Consider a voltage divider with a resistor tied to the supply, in series with the thermistor to ground: v+ v+ | | R1 Th1 | | +----out +----out | | Th1 R1 | | --- --- Fig 1 Fig 2 The circuit of Fig 1 will give a decreasing voltage with increasing temp. However, if you reverse the positions of the resistor and the thermistor, as in Fig 2, you will also reverse the slope of the output voltage, and thus have a positive slope output even though the sensor itself has a negative slope. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 06:24:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA28842; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:08:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA28837; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:08:14 -0400 Received: from pmf19.rt66.com (pmf19.rt66.com [206.206.85.39]) by Rt66.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA08402; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:03:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3240EF9D.1AFC@rt66.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:00:45 -0700 From: "Michael D. Porter" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: HIHA@GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hans-- Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the seat material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I could find. Took a cursory look at the ASM (Am. Society of Materials) Handbook, which goes into a million grades of steel, but no applications for those materials in the section I checked. Has been very busy at work, but when it slows down for a heartbeat or two, I'll keep looking. If I strike out at work, I'll make a Saturday morning visit to the machine shop and check their catalogs for specs. Cheers. -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 06:48:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA28879; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:35:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA28874; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:35:11 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com [206.163.123.142]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04026 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609190437.VAA04026@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bob Harris has mentioned a desire to inject water at a precise point in the combustion cycle just for grins to see what happens. I'd think one would want to preheat the water to little less than the boiling point, and then inject after the combustion was well on it's way so you wouldn't snuff it. I also imagine that ceramic coatings on the water handling hardware would do wonders for component life. Anyhow I believe there may be an existing engine suited to this. The little Plymouth(I think they called them champ, or chimp) had a 3rd lobe on the cam that actuated a 3rd valve for what they called a "stratified charge". Had something to do with putting a proper mixture around the plug, and lean everywhere else. There was an adjustment on the rocker arm so you could play with that for timing. I'd imagine that some type of mechanical injector could be machined into the space used by the stratified charge system. And I don't think you're nuts! From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 06:56:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA28892; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:44:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA28887; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:44:37 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA08070; Thu, 19 Sep 96 13:44:10 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843170217 Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:56:57 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:56:57 Message-Id: <9608198431.AA843170217@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks, unfortunately the sensor is normally tied to ground when screwed into the block or other places of metal, so turning a NTC thermistor into a PTC thermistor becomes a bit of a mess, although not impossible. I may just get a PTC thermistor and encapsulate it in a brass plug to produce the temp sensor. Quite easy, but it would still be easier to buy one. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/19/96 2:46 PM v+ v+ | | R1 Th1 | | +----out +----out | | Th1 R1 | | --- --- Fig 1 Fig 2 The circuit of Fig 1 will give a decreasing voltage with increasing temp. However, if you reverse the positions of the resistor and the thermistor, as in Fig 2, you will also reverse the slope of the output voltage, and thus have a positive slope output even though the sensor itself has a negative slope. regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 07:09:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA28924; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:57:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA28919; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:57:09 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com [206.163.123.142]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03836 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609190436.VAA03836@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: Ennis Bragg >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? > >> I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, >> Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages >> of cool stuff in it. >> >> Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? > >Here's some info out of an ad in SCCA's Sportscar magazine.(Sept.96,pg43) > >Kinsler Fuel Injection >1834-K Thunderbird >Troy, MI 48084 > >Phone: 810-362-1145 >Fax: 810-362-1032 > >Send check or money order. no COD or credit cards are accepted for catalog >Catalog Price: $12.00 (US) > >"Our 92 page handbook/catalog is the bible on RACING FUEL INJECTION." > >This is all straight from their add. > >hope it helps As one who's seen some of their work, and needs something like what they make, it does help. It tells me they have an attitude and think pretty highly of themselves.(no cod accepted for the much higher than cost catalog) Being as they aren't smart enough to figuire out that throttle plates on both sides of an engine need to open the same way in order to be consistent I imagine that I'll have to build one for myself as compared to modify theirs. The reason for this is that I doubt that they're the type I'll do any deal with. The reason I put this in here is so that some of the students who may indeed be in a marketing position in the future may want to consider it. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 07:25:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA28969; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:12:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA28963; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:12:33 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com (ip-pdx15-14.teleport.com [206.163.123.142]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03871 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609190436.VAA03871@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: "Robert J. Harris" >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:25:23 -0700 >Subject: Timing - Ignition > >Subject: Ignition timing in conjunction with EFI > >There appears to exist a number of sensors to build >an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that >anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock >sensor that just tells me - oops too much - >self destruct sequence initiated. Not me! I'm full of it! But I'll definetly have to agree with your synopsis so far! >Factory curves and random published curves are all >that most without dynes have to work with. Back in >the bad old days, (pre computer) the killer secret for >street tuning was to advance the static initial timing >watching rpm and vacuum, until you got the max >you could get and still start the engine, then put a >sping kit in adjust the mechanical until the total was >the same as what ever your guru of choice had >dicated. Look for ping or knock, then put some >more in. It works but had too much PFM (Pure F___ng >Majic) to be reliable for all engines. Since then, many >bandaid seem to have appeared. Hear here! The BS never stops! >Since we now have computers, we should be able to >monitor something other than self destruct imminent and >tweak and peak the timing in conjunction with the fuel >to get optimum power and economy. YEAH! >I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. > All kinds of stuff! 84 Datsun z cars had a factory g-meter on board, although limited to .5 g's.(A good hard launch at the strip is at least 3g's.) It may be that the current gear may be needed to be taken into account, but I don't see it as mandatory. Vacuum is still a viable indicator, although one needs to consider that an efficient engine will be throttle per cyl. Another thing to keep in mind is system speed. To fast will read pulsations in vacuum, to slow will adjust timing after destruction, at which point it's immaterial. It would also seem to me that the thing should have a learn mode that would be able to tune for varying load.(In my case from 7000lb-17000lb, without trailer) I have to think that there is already out there somewhere some dyno loading/ running software that could be used to avoid reinventing the wheel. My inclination would be to set up a graph of rpm/vacuum and have the processor wiggle the timing and pulse width within a percentage to achieve best acceleration. It may even be possible to setup the jigling parameters so that they are done as a subroutine that is specifiable for a vacuum or rpm range.(Hope ya'll excuse the 1977 basic terminology:-) >Remember the Reichstag I do, and see the same mo happening frequently today. >- ---------- > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 07:27:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA28980; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:16:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA28975; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:15:59 -0400 Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:16:13 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:16:44 +1000 To: diy_efi From: lambs@HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the >seat >material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not >seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I One material used for 'hardened' valve seats is Stellite, which is a Cobalt based alloy. Also used a facing material on the valve itself. I can get specs if you want. Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 09:20:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA29093; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:58:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sunsrv5.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA29088; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:58:27 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by sunsrv5.lrz-muenchen.de; Thu, 19 Sep 96 10:58:01 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 23 Sep 96 10:58:01 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 19 Sep 96 9:32:52 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:32:48 MET Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <1155A17A8B@brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - > Remember the Reichstag!!! > Can anybody explain that to me? Offline! Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 11:16:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA29317; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:56:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netline.totobit.it by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA29312; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:56:01 -0400 Received: from @netline.totobit.it ([151.99.142.206]) by netline.totobit.it (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02064; Thu, 19 Sep 96 12:49:57 +0200 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 12:49:56 +0200 Message-Id: <9609191049.AA02064@netline.totobit.it> X-Sender: pfontana@netline.totobit.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: pfontana@netline.totobit.it (fontana pasquale) Subject: about teflon-oil Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HELLO TO ALL Have anyone take, purchase, drink etc. etc. any type of oil with teflon?? Do you know the oil type with " CENTRILIUM " ??? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') PASQUALE ----------- address phone & mailing--------------------------------- FONTANA Ing. Pasquale Via Stazione 24 89055 GALLICO MAR. (REGGIO CAL.) ITALY E-MAIL: pfontana@netline.totobit.it phone: 0039 965 863404 fax : 0039 965 863244 ------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 12:25:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA29413; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:03:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA29408; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:03:12 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA00418 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:05:43 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA21454; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:03:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > >Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the > >seat > >material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not > >seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I > > One material used for 'hardened' valve seats is Stellite, which is a Cobalt > based alloy. Also used a facing material on the valve itself. I can get > specs if you want. Stellite valves are also available for Porsches and maybe some other cars. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 13:51:09 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA29800; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:29:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA29795; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:29:16 -0400 Received: from slip-48-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38195; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:29:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:29:13 -0500 Message-Id: <9609191329.AA38195@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor Cc: dibble@hagar.ph.utexas.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > That is what they are for, but wouldn,t it be great to get rid of an > op-amp. Hence try and reduce the amount of circuitry required. > Something like a simple LCD temp read out (very useful for diff, > gearbox and water in race cars), temp sensor, a small resistor divider > and a panel meter, and its guarranteed to be very reliable, once you > start throwing in op-amps, etc. you need very steady power supply > rails to avoid inaccurate readings. So is there a positive temp > coefficient sensor around ? (could always make one if I have to, but > its easier if there's a car that's already using one). > > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor >Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET >Date: 9/18/96 11:19 PM > > >> Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. >> increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier >> for analogue circuitry. >> >> Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > >I thought that's what inverting amps were for. >Tom Dan, The first monolothic op-amp was the uA-709. It was not frequency compensated, required offset adjustments, could latch up and was sensitive to its power supply. That was about 1967 or so. Only a few years later the uA-741 (yes, the venerable 741) came out. It solved all of those problems. The ability of an op-amp to not be affected by its power supply is called (guess what?) Supply Voltage Rejection Ratio. For the 741 (remember, it's an OLD op-amp, the new ones are much better) the SVRR is 77 dB minimum to over 96 dB. That means that a change of one volt in the supply will create a change of no more than 1/(10^(77/20)) <= 140 micro-volts. If your sensor has a range of 0 to 5 volts, then this represents an error of .00014/5 = .0028%. A digital meter typically is only .5% accurate. An analog meter only 5%. If you use any electronics, you're gonna have to 'scale' voltages. If your sensor output is fairly lo-Z an' your meter is hi-Z, you can maybe use a resistor voltage divider (assuming you're going to a lower voltage). If your meter requires any offset voltage (like maybe your sensor has an output from 1 to 6 volts and your meter works on 0 to 5 volts) you'll need a transistor circuit or op-amp. In other words, you live in an analog world (hell, digital circuits are just saturated analog amplifiers!!) and you're gonna have to deal wid' it. If you are inexperienced with operational amplifiers, go to Radio Shack and buy their $3 book on op-amps. Actually, they have a several good beginning books that are incredibly inexpensive. There is a series by Forrest Mimms that I recommend highly. The little book I mentioned that costs about $3.00 can be bought with a small kit of parts for probably $10.00 so that one can build some simple circuits. All you'd need is a couple of 9-volt transistor batteries and a voltmeter. Once again, Radio Shack sells a pocket DVM for about $25. [Note: I do not recommend the purchase of parts from Radio Shack -- in fact long experience dictates strongly against it. I recommend the above books to my students, however. The DVM mentioned is not very good. Better to buy one for about $10 more from some place that carries quality products -- like maybe Digi-Key, Mouser, Newark, etc.] Now, to answer your real question re: pos. coeff. temp. sensors. Thermistors are neg. coeff. but T.I. used to make a product called a 'sensistor' that was pos. coeff. (last time I saw one was probably 1972). Don't have any idea if they still make it. There is a company called Omega that carries all kinds of stuff like that (and produce very good catalogs and reference sources). Their number is 800-826-6342. (But, you'll still probably have to condition the output -- i.e. use an op-amp!) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 14:07:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA00028; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:45:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA00023; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:45:37 -0400 Received: from slip-48-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42688; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:45:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:45:35 -0500 Message-Id: <9609191345.AA42688@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: about teflon-oil Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >HELLO TO ALL > >Have anyone take, purchase, drink etc. etc. any type of oil with teflon?? > >Do you know the oil type with " CENTRILIUM " ??? > >Thanks for "those helpers" . > check: ftp://ftp.best.com/pub.c/chucko/fordnatics/motor-oil Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 14:24:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00065; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:05:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00060; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:05:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199609191405.KAA00060@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Microcontroller shielding questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:12:20 PDT." <199609180512.WAA16128@freya.van.hookup.net> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:02:40 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 09:14 AM 9/17/96 PDT, Wade Barnes wrote: > >>I am designing a small (2"x2") controller board for use in the automotive >>and robotics industries. The board is based on the MC68HC16Z1 >>microcontroller. Since the engine compartment of a car is filled with EMI >>we are attempting to make the board as resistant as possible to the effects >>of the EMI. > Using sheilded twisted pairs for your incoming wires will help. Ground the sheild at the computer and leave the other end ungrounded. Have a very good ground. >Sorry, I can't quantify any of the EMI/RFI effects that you mentioned, I'd >be surprised if anyone could. Mebbe stick the car in a Faraday cage and see >what you get. > Faraday cages are hard to come by. If you can find a large field with no power lines you can do about as well as in a cage. At least one major farm equipment maker use this method. Good luck Gordon From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 15:20:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00259; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:00:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00251; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:00:14 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08231; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:00:10 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA64B.D9E14DC0@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:58:59 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA64B.D9E14DC0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Stephen Lamb'" Cc: "Robert J. Harris" Subject: RE: Jake Brakes & dynos Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:12:59 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Seconded... I want to talk Silicon and WD-40 not politics: Mark Also not a flame... just a prod to try and get back to silicon and WD ;-) ---------- From: Stephen Lamb[SMTP:lambs@HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 1996 2:29 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: Robert J. Harris Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos >All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - > Remember the Reichstag!!! OK,OK.........enough already. The first few times was a vague annoyance.....but now I just delete the messages that start with this 'tag' without bothering with the rest of the message. Apparently it has something more to do with American politics than the actual Reichstag incident (which I DO know a little about). Whatever....it has little to do with this list, please take it to alt.politics (or something like that). This is NOT a flame - and a flame war will not be entered into - just a cry that enough is enough. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 15:20:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00218; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:57:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00212; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:57:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199609191457.KAA00212@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:59:10 CDT." Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:57:10 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>From: "Robert J. Harris" >>>They fit in the driveline - after the transmission - sort of like an >>>overdirve transmission kit. Will post the cost and dimensions >>>when I get them. Sorry I missed the opening parts of the >>dyno thread. Does the drive shaft twist enough to measure? If it does a strain gauge on the shaft that detemined the frequency of an oscilor(sp) then modulate a very small transmiter with the output from the oscilator. Recive it on the other end and then use the pulse accumulator on a 68HC11 to count the pulses over a period and you should be able to convert that to torque. It would vary on every vehicle it would probably only be good for compairsons and would be difficult to calibrate and keep in calibration. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 15:33:22 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00288; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:10:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00277; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:10:31 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08245; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:10:28 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA64D.30ADA6C0@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:08:34 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA64D.30ADA6C0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'fontana pasquale'" Subject: RE: about teflon-oil Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:05:01 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes... It was bloody useless in our application, because teflon is a = solid ground PTFE and while slippery, and good under pressure, it is = also kinda gritty on the smallest scale. (also stopped the ball bearings on my track ball dead... had to put new = bearings in... harder job than changing hub bearings) Mark ---------- From: fontana pasquale[SMTP:pfontana@netline.totobit.it] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 1996 12:50 PM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: about teflon-oil HELLO TO ALL Have anyone take, purchase, drink etc. etc. any type of oil with = teflon?? Do you know the oil type with " CENTRILIUM " ??? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE =20 *** ** \||/ * * ('')=20 PASQUALE=20 ----------- address phone & mailing--------------------------------- FONTANA Ing. Pasquale=20 Via Stazione 24=20 89055 GALLICO MAR. (REGGIO CAL.) ITALY E-MAIL: pfontana@netline.totobit.it phone: 0039 965 863404 fax : 0039 965 863244=20 ------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 15:33:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00289; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:10:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00281; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:10:36 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08249; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:10:32 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA64D.4CA38CA0@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:09:21 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA64D.4CA38CA0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Dirk Wright'" Subject: Hardened Valve Seats, but why? Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:08:24 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Grud!... wasn't life easy with lead??? ---------- From: Dirk Wright[SMTP:wright@uspto.gov] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 1996 10:03 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > >Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the > >seat > >material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not > >seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I > > One material used for 'hardened' valve seats is Stellite, which is a Cobalt > based alloy. Also used a facing material on the valve itself. I can get > specs if you want. Stellite valves are also available for Porsches and maybe some other cars. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 16:25:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00499; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:01:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00314; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:20:08 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.31) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:22:49 -0800 From: "Robert J. Harris" To: Subject: Kiss Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:43:42 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1369001127-19870@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Once upon a time, refrigerators ran on what I believe is called the ammonia cycle. RV and some industrial fridges still do. RV's burn Propane to generate the heat energy to cool the pop and make ice. The one area every one agrees that helps power, mileage and efficiency is intercooling the discharge air of a turbo. Why not look at this type of pumpless, compressor less form of refrigeration as a possible candidate for active charge cooling while recovering some excess heat energy. Not being a refrigeration engineer, I can't say what the numbers will run out to, but it offers some initial hope of doing something practical with the excess heat. Any form of charge cooling is going to require control and at least feedforward. The perfect candidate for that is the EFI controller. Just some food for thought - for whatever its worth. I'm out of the feedback loop - just want to see if anyone else sees some possibility. This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 17:08:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00530; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:53:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01355; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:47:02 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA04664 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:46:53 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:46:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Math Question In-Reply-To: <323D4B2D.66C4@bekes.hungary.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Unless some real efficient heat/electric device was available, and used to drive the car, not much of a gain will be seen. Heck, if such an efficient direct heat/electric capability existed, we could replace our engines with oil burners (like the one o\in your basement)! Power plants have 2 advantages. THey don't move. So weight of the extra equipment isn't a problem. And they are amortized over something like thirty-five years. Helps with the costs. Now while some of us might have overweight project cars that never move and just eat dollars, that is not the point! :) So I expect that this issue will remain pretty much a sore point unless somehow we figure out how to use the waste heat to perform mechanical work. Your car just does not use enough electrical power to gain much by eliminating the alternator, although of course it is a step in the right direction. John On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, hoss karoly wrote: > John Napoli wrote: > > > > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). > > > > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their > > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty > > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. > > > > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the > > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets > > go with that number. > I had the same feeeling before . > in fact I plan to build some peltier-cells on my engine > to charge my battery > who knows ? maybe I can eliminate the generator and save power > > BTW does anybody knows how the H-O cells work ? is it possible to build > one > wich work with gasoline and air to produce electricity ? > the heat-cells work at a 70-80% eff. range > > bye > charley > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 19:14:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00715; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:01:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00710; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:01:40 -0400 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.3/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id SAA29522 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:57:39 GMT Received: from il02dns1.comm.mot.com (il02dns1.comm.mot.com [145.1.3.2]) by mothost.mot.com (8.7.3/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id OAA18932 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:01:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ssd.comm.mot.com (ssd.comm.mot.com [145.1.196.1]) by il02dns1.comm.mot.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05175; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:09:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from albireo.ssd by ssd.comm.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27036; Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:01:49 CDT Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:01:49 CDT Origin: ssd From: butler@comm.mot.com (Jim Butler) Message-Id: <9609191401.ZM22467@comm.mot.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: John@il02dns1.comm.mot.com, "Napoli[SMTP":jgn@li.net], diy_efi Subject: RE: Math Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] >Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Math Question > > > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. In a relatively old textbook that I have on heat engines (40's or 50's era) there's a discussion of the idea of following an IC with a gas-turbine. The context wasn't like that of a turbocharger, but rather with the turbine shaft connected though a mechanical drive to the driveshaft, hence combining the output of the two for useful work. FWIW, Jim -- Jim Butler (butler@comm.mot.com) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 20:24:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01316; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:07:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aceweb.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01311; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:07:08 -0400 From: neilaura@aceweb.net Received: from MHS by aceweb.net with MHS id ANAGAAFP ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:06:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:06:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Math Question To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi DI>Yes, and the key phrase is 'to an extent'. There is still a lot of waste DI>heat out the tail pipe and in the radiator and etc. A turbo is a step in DI>the right direction but there are still a lot of BTUs being 'wasted'. DI>John DI>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: DI>> Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in diesels DI>> DI>> Mark DI>> DI>> ---------- DI>> From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] DI>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM DI>> To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu DI>> Subject: Re: Math Question DI>> DI>> This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). DI>> DI>> Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the DI>> 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their DI>> pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty DI>> good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. DI>> DI>> Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the DI>> waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets DI>> go with that number. DI>> DI>> If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a DI>> big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we DI>> would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software DI>> in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like DI>> to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. DI>> DI>> John DI>> DI>> DI>> I once read an article (I forget where) regarding a company that was using superheated steam, made by wrapping copper pipe around the header, to drive a small turbine, which was used to run the air conditioning and the alternator. This obviously relieved the engine of these power sucking accessories, and indirectly raised the efficiency. I don't know if any further research was done, but it seemed like a practical idea. Neil Powell Neilaura@aceweb.net DI>> DI>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent from AceWeb. Telnet to bbs.aceweb.net. BBS#(818) 891-0397 Home of the 500 Disc CD-Rom Changer. Call AceWeb Network at (800)600-3285 >>> ISV Software Distributor <<< Call Agama Computer at (800)745-2231 >>> Computer Parts and Systems <<< Check out our web site at http://www.aceweb.net for more info! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 20:24:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01329; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:09:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aceweb.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01324; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:09:08 -0400 From: neilaura@aceweb.net Received: from MHS by aceweb.net with MHS id ANAGAGCB ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:08:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:06:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi DI>On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: DI>> >Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the DI>> >seat DI>> >material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not DI>> >seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I DI>> DI>> One material used for 'hardened' valve seats is Stellite, which is a Cobal DI>> based alloy. Also used a facing material on the valve itself. I can get DI>> specs if you want. DI>Stellite valves are also available for Porsches and maybe some other cars. DI>**************************************************************************** DI>Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov DI>"I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 DI>"A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House DI>**************************************************************************** I don't know about America, but in England it is common practise to build up cam lobes with stellite to reclaim them. The stuff is damn near indestructable and can be applied easily with a welding torch. Neil Powell Neilaura@aceweb.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent from AceWeb. Telnet to bbs.aceweb.net. BBS#(818) 891-0397 Home of the 500 Disc CD-Rom Changer. Call AceWeb Network at (800)600-3285 >>> ISV Software Distributor <<< Call Agama Computer at (800)745-2231 >>> Computer Parts and Systems <<< Check out our web site at http://www.aceweb.net for more info! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 21:27:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01503; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:04:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01496; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:04:02 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.116]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA08692 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:23:14 +0200 Message-ID: <323E2862.1CBE@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:26:10 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 References: <199609190437.VAA04026@desiree.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi talltom wrote: > > Bob Harris has mentioned a desire to inject water at a precise point in the > combustion cycle just for grins to see what happens. I'd think one would > want to > preheat the water to little less than the boiling point, wow it's a nice idea to preheat it thanks for the idea btw I'm new to the list (hi!) where can I find some kind of archive ? and what kind of pump-valve do you use for water-injection ? about myself (hit-delete if you ... you already done it if you're not interested ) I'm 25 working usually with micro-controllers like the PIC I built some automotive-applications before and I'm interested in pumping some more power and mileage in my good-old bedford diesel the first idea is to make it water injected any ideas on this one ? bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 22:03:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01620; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:40:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA01615; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:39:56 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.117]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA08777 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:59:13 +0200 Message-ID: <323E3A99.1C6@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:43:53 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: wasted-heat References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Napoli wrote: > > Unless some real efficient heat/electric device was available, and used to > drive the car, not much of a gain will be seen. Heck, if such an > efficient direct heat/electric capability existed, we could replace our > engines with oil burners (like the one o\in your basement)! the peltier cells are widely used in automotive drink-coolers and they are really efficient in a way : they use waste-heat used for nothing the altRnator uses the engine's power so it can be 100% efficient - it uses Xtra fuel > > So I expect that this issue will remain pretty much a sore point unless > somehow we figure out how to use the waste heat to perform mechanical > work. Your car just does not use enough electrical power to gain much by > eliminating the alternator, although of course it is a step in the right > direction. > well , I'd be more careful about estimating the ele-power-consumption of my car only the front lights are a little above 900 watts :) (it helps finding the way ;) ) the audio sys eats up some 200-300 W the stand-heating 40-200 W the seat-heating ? only saab knows ( I found it in a saab 900 ) the H-O catalist cells are used in space applications maybe someone can build one for diesel-air it'll be light and extremely efficient it must be - according to the books but it states noone has found the right catalisator YET bye charley ps how do would you make a pre-heated water injector for a diesel ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 22:49:54 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01710; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:27:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01704; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:26:51 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ab28112; 19 Sep 96 20:30 BST Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk ([158.152.100.96]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa08132; 19 Sep 96 20:20 BST Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:45:11 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Chris Morriss Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor In-Reply-To: <9608198431.AA843148124@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 <5asEvod5709R6741eo9wbh3aEa> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message <9608198431.AA843148124@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au>, dzorde@aesprodata.com.au writes > > That is what they are for, but wouldn,t it be great to get rid of an > op-amp. Hence try and reduce the amount of circuitry required. > Something like a simple LCD temp read out (very useful for diff, > gearbox and water in race cars), temp sensor, a small resistor divider > and a panel meter, and its guarranteed to be very reliable, once you > start throwing in op-amps, etc. you need very steady power supply > rails to avoid inaccurate readings. So is there a positive temp > coefficient sensor around ? (could always make one if I have to, but > its easier if there's a car that's already using one). > > > Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor >Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET >Date: 9/18/96 11:19 PM > > >> Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. >> increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier >> for analogue circuitry. >> >> Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au > >I thought that's what inverting amps were for. >Tom > I use a Nat Semi LM50. This is a linear sensor with an output that increases with increasing temperature. The TO92 version can be fitted into an old dismantled water temp sensor if required. Use heatshrink sleeving as insulation. As it is a 3-wire sensor it needs a +ve feed as well as the ground and output wire. -- Chris Morriss From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 22:56:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01739; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:39:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01734; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:39:44 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20484>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:41:20 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep20.104120nzst.20484@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >There appears to exist a number of sensors to build >an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that >anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock >sensor that just tells me - oops too much - >self destruct sequence initiated. I posted similar musings to an unreceptive audience in efi332 a while back, could have been the house was empty, but here I go again.... I have thought about this an awful lot, and plan to put some of my ideas into practice, once I figure out how to actually build the thing... The only thing stopping you having a computer tweak the engine parameters for you is that you have to have *accurate* *results* from your measuring system. It seems to me with an accurate performance measure- ment system, anything is possible, but building an *accurate* system is a bit of an ask. Consider a car on an absolutely perfectly flat piece of concrete, on an absolutely still day, with an absolutely even ambient air temperature/pressure. Now theoretically, you can measure your acceleration and speed down to a t, factor in total car weight (however you're going to measure that...), drag coefficient if you like, RPMs... whatever else you need to get torque and real horsepower. I dont even know the physics well, but I figure it can be done. Use some fuzzy logic to try to improve things over multiple acceleration runs, hey presto, self tuning car. But of course we all know that the original premise is absolute B.S., even an aircraft runway would have trouble delivering. Bumps on the road will produce lumps in the acceleration curve if you're measuring wheel speed, how ill it know when we are climbing slight rises, how will it know when we are cornering, how will it account for headwinds... What about putting this on my bike??!! Of course there are sensors that could capture information that could largely negate all of these, and I am keen to try and implement most of them. Put in a knock sensor, and try to use EGO as much as possible, including in non-steady-state situations, to make sure we are heading in the right direction, *heaps* of memory to record multiple instances of the same speed/RPM/TPS for different spark/fuel parameters, historical EGO info... My idea is to have this running for a race track environment, where the car is doing multiple acceleration and speed runs, repetitively, and I think given a baseline spark/fuel curve, it could quite quickly approach the perfection asymptote... I have no idea how complex the software will be to get there, or what kind of processing grunt will be required. I am going to start with a '552!!! What it is capable of I don't know, but being of an empirical nature, I hope to find out. >I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. > Where yours????? ;-) Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) Anybody need a race car driver? No, really, I'm quite good.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 22:56:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA01732; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:39:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from upsmot01.msn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01726; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:39:26 -0400 Received: from upmajb02.msn.com (upmajb02.msn.com [204.95.110.74]) by upsmot01.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id PAA13582 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:32:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 22:03:02 UT From: "Orin Harding" Message-Id: To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Electromotive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Todd, I have the newer Electromotive TEC-II and I suppose you can get a copy of the software you need from them at (703) 378-2444. This may be the old number but the operator can give you the new one. They also have a web page, search for Electromotive. Orin e-mail address: orin@deltacp.com Check our WEB site: www.deltacp.com Phone/Fax: (910) 854-3232 Mobil Phone: (910) 601-8418 ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of Todd Knighton Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 2:04 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Electromotive Hellppp. Got stuck with this car that has an old Electromotive TEC-I with a 23D eprom and it needs a program called "CAL" to work with it. Anybody out there have one or know where to get it. In the Electromotive Manual it gives a description of the units/eproms/calibration software and next to this one it says (obsolete), oh boy, more fun! If anyone has worked with this system maybe you could answer this question. We got the car with no calibration software, and according to the manual there's no way to upload the parameters from the unit to the PC, or is there? It looks like all you can do is download from the PC to the Electromotive TEC unit so do we have to start all over again, even though we have a calibration that's mildly close to where it should be? Any help would be appreciated! <:( Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 23:31:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01827; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:15:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fastlane.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01822; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:15:48 -0400 Received: from fw54.fastlane.net (fw54.fastlane.net [206.42.189.54]) by fastlane.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07098 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:19:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609192319.SAA07098@fastlane.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jeffrey Engel" To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:02:25 +600 Subject: Re: Haltech E6 EFI Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jeremy, I don't run an E6, but I'm a short drive from Norwood in Dallas, TX (USA). From what I gather, they ARE or they are distributors for Haltech in the US of A. I'd be willing to help out if I can. BTW, did you know that the Haltech was designed in OZ (the E6 at least)? Maybe you could get help close by. The 'tuning' interface is patented in OZ, that means you should be able to trace someone through the patent office. je > From: Jeremy Pronk > > > Any help is greatly appreciated! I would like to hear from anyone who > runs Haltech E6 in there car as well. (Forgive my ignorance, but I have > only ever played with carbies up until now, even though I have been on > this list for a while, I dont seem to have picked up to much)... > > Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA > '69 510 4dr (for sale!) > '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 23:55:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01863; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:40:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01858; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:40:29 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02253 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:43:06 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA25659; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:40:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 neilaura@aceweb.net wrote: > > > I don't know about America, but in England it is common practise to > build up cam lobes with stellite to reclaim them. The stuff is damn near > indestructable and can be applied easily with a welding torch. > I think it's uncommon on this side of the pond. Stelite still has enough of an aura of voodoo magic to be a good marketing tool for the fat wallet set. The main benifit of the material is that it doens't get soft at high temperatures, unlike just about every other steel alloy. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 19 23:57:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01878; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:44:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01873; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:44:18 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02257 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:46:55 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA25694; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 In-Reply-To: <323E2862.1CBE@bekes.hungary.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, hoss karoly wrote: > I built some automotive-applications before and I'm interested in > pumping some > more power and mileage in my good-old bedford diesel > the first idea is to make it water injected > any ideas on this one ? I would be very careful using water injection on a diesel because the extremely high compression ratios could easily lead to hydro lock, thus bendin your connecting rods, or worse. Also, I heard somewhere that diesels actually *liked* lots of heat, so the cooling effect of water injection may be a disadvantage. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 00:12:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01962; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:57:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01957; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:57:51 -0400 Received: from slip-62-2.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20212; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:57:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:57:48 -0500 Message-Id: <9609192357.AA20212@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: wasted-heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [snip ] >the peltier cells are widely used in automotive drink-coolers and they >are really saw an article once where someone attached a modified grill to the back of the car and used the heat from the exhaust to cook a meal whilst driving. >well , I'd be more careful about estimating the ele-power-consumption of >my car >only the front lights are a little above 900 watts :) >(it helps finding the way ;) ) >the audio sys eats up some 200-300 W the stand-heating 40-200 W >the seat-heating ? only saab knows ( I found it in a saab 900 ) dunno where those figgers come from. P=E * I. A headlight bulb is typically 50 watts. I = P/E, therefore about 4 amps per headlight. About 2 amps for clearance / stop / turn lamps (each), so for two headlights and 2 clearance / turn lights, maybe 150 watts or about 12 amps. The power consumed by audio systems is minimal: maybe 200 mA for a tape drive motor. Most power is for anything that lights up -- like incandescent lamps or LED's. Now, when you're making volume, that's a different bag o' worms. But 300 watts? What I was trying to say in the first part is, most of the wattage (like the 300 watts) will be used in the power amp -- and most of it (class B amps are about 75% efficient) will go into the speakers. You listen to that long and you'll have to correspond by writing or sign language 'cause you won't be able to hear. Besides, never seen an OEM system that made 300 watts -- didn't say there weren't any. Most systems make maybe 10 or 20 watts. What I've observed for electrical power draws: headlamps 50 watts ~ 4 A exterior lamps 10-20 watts ~ 2 A interior lamps 10 watts ~ 1 A dash lamps 2 watts ~ 200 mA. ignition coil 50 watts ~ 4 A (intermittent) radio 2 - xx watts ~ .25 amps (no volume) tape deck motor 2 watts ~ .2 A starter 1800 - 3000 watts ~ 150 - 250 A fuel pump 24 - 120 watts ~ 2 - 10 amps blower motor ( dunno ) computer ( dunno ) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 00:30:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01999; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:14:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA01994; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:14:37 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA15630; Fri, 20 Sep 96 07:14:13 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843233262 Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:27:42 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:27:42 Message-Id: <9608208432.AA843233262@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[4]: GM Coolant sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks, nice reply, I would go digital if I had the time, but I just want something quick and super reliable (the more parts, the lower the MTBF). Anyway I'll just mount a VDO temp sensor in a larger plug (isolated with the extra resistor to the earth, to turn it into a PTC sensor). One of these mounted in each area to be measured, a selector switch to select either sensor and a panel meter to display the selected sensor. Easy, quick, cheap and very reliable. Thanks for the input everybody, its good to see some of the ideas floating around. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Now, to answer your real question re: pos. coeff. temp. sensors. Thermistors are neg. coeff. but T.I. used to make a product called a 'sensistor' that was pos. coeff. (last time I saw one was probably 1972). Don't have any idea if they still make it. There is a company called Omega that carries all kinds of stuff like that (and produce very good catalogs and reference sources). Their number is 800-826-6342. (But, you'll still probably have to condition the output -- i.e. use an op-amp!) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 01:29:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02086; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:13:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02081; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:13:50 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02271; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:11:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:11:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Diesel Injectors.... How do they work? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Not quite EFI, but while looking for Injectors, I met a good friend at NOPI, and he showed me alot of injectors... I noticed that the Diesel ones had Fuel in, and two little ports on the sides. How do these injectors know when to fire? Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 01:54:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02133; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:46:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02128; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:46:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199609200146.VAA02128@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:40:25 EDT." Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:43:47 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 neilaura@aceweb.net wrote: > >I think it's uncommon on this side of the pond. Stelite still has enough >of an aura of voodoo magic to be a good marketing tool for the fat wallet >set. > I think they make stelite valves for about every thing. We use them alot for valves in propane conversions. The standard drill was to run a new pickup 5,000 miles to break it in, make the propane conversion, run it until needed a valve job and put in stelite valves and seats. At least on the exaust valve. Gordon From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 01:54:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02124; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:44:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02118; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:44:16 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA16588; Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:43:50 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843238575 Fri, 20 Sep 96 09:56:15 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 09:56:15 Message-Id: <9608208432.AA843238575@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: wasted-heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'm running 90/130W (low/high beam) in my headlights, a set of 150W sealed beam for high beam and a set of 150W spotties. Comes to 180W at low beam (around town), switch on the high beam and you have 740W (due to the purposely designed wiring the low beam stays on when the high beam is switched on), then switch on the spotties (1040W) and boy, you'll be able to spot a roo 20Km up the road before you hit it. It does tend to flatten the battery over long periods though, the alternator drops to about 9.6V @ 6500 rpm when everything is on. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: wasted-heat Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/20/96 9:40 AM [snip ] >the peltier cells are widely used in automotive drink-coolers and they >are really saw an article once where someone attached a modified grill to the back of the car and used the heat from the exhaust to cook a meal whilst driving. >well , I'd be more careful about estimating the ele-power-consumption of >my car >only the front lights are a little above 900 watts :) >(it helps finding the way ;) ) >the audio sys eats up some 200-300 W the stand-heating 40-200 W >the seat-heating ? only saab knows ( I found it in a saab 900 ) dunno where those figgers come from. P=E * I. A headlight bulb is typically 50 watts. I = P/E, therefore about 4 amps per headlight. About 2 amps for clearance / stop / turn lamps (each), so for two headlights and 2 clearance / turn lights, maybe 150 watts or about 12 amps. The power consumed by audio systems is minimal: maybe 200 mA for a tape drive motor. Most power is for anything that lights up -- like incandescent lamps or LED's. Now, when you're making volume, that's a different bag o' worms. But 300 watts? What I was trying to say in the first part is, most of the wattage (like the 300 watts) will be used in the power amp -- and most of it (class B amps are about 75% efficient) will go into the speakers. You listen to that long and you'll have to correspond by writing or sign language 'cause you won't be able to hear. Besides, never seen an OEM system that made 300 watts -- didn't say there weren't any. Most systems make maybe 10 or 20 watts. What I've observed for electrical power draws: headlamps 50 watts ~ 4 A exterior lamps 10-20 watts ~ 2 A interior lamps 10 watts ~ 1 A dash lamps 2 watts ~ 200 mA. ignition coil 50 watts ~ 4 A (intermittent) radio 2 - xx watts ~ .25 amps (no volume) tape deck motor 2 watts ~ .2 A starter 1800 - 3000 watts ~ 150 - 250 A fuel pump 24 - 120 watts ~ 2 - 10 amps blower motor ( dunno ) computer ( dunno ) Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 01:59:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02144; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:51:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02139; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:51:07 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA05663 (8.7.6/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:51:03 +1000 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22636; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:41:21 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22636; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:41:21 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00137; Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:42:22 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609201242.AA00137@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:42:14 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Maths Question Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> >> If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that >> make a big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and >> lighter cars, we would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt >> that all the EFI software in the world will make much more MPG than >> we see right now. I would like to see something intelligent about >> using the waste heat. > > >In a relatively old textbook that I have on heat engines (40's or >50's era) there's a discussion of the idea of following an IC with a >gas-turbine. >The context wasn't like that of a turbocharger, but rather with the >turbine shaft connected though a mechanical drive to the driveshaft, >hence combining the output of the two for useful work. Curtis-Wright did this on their Turbo-Compund aero engines of the 40's and 50's. It gave more power, better power-weight, but not sure about thermal efficiency though. Now they use gas turbines made by GE, Pratt&Whittney and RR :) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 02:15:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02266; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:05:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cherokee.eecs.uic.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02255; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:05:49 -0400 Received: (from rorem@localhost) by cherokee.eecs.uic.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id VAA13693; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:08:26 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:08:26 -0500 From: Doug Rorem Subject: Re: Diesel Injectors.... How do they work? To: diy_efi Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> >>Not quite EFI, but while looking for Injectors, I met a good friend at >>NOPI, and he showed me alot of injectors... I noticed that the Diesel ones >>had Fuel in, and two little ports on the sides. How do these injectors >>know when to fire? >> >> Thor Johnson Thor, The injection pump ramps up the fuel pressure very high (roughly 2500 psi) and the injector 'fires' when it's breaking pressure is reached. For VW diesels there is a moveable pintle in the nozzle that is spring loaded which determines the 'breaking' pressure. There are shim washers that are used to adjust the spring force and thus the pressure for firing. When the right pressure is reached, the pintle nozzle moves up into the injector body and fuel sprays out. When the pressure drops, the spring shoves the pintle back into place which cuts off fuel flow, readying the injector for the next cycle. The two ports on the side of a VW injector are for excess fuel flow which goes back to the fuel tank. -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@uic.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 02:33:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02298; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:20:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02293; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:20:39 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp7.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.229]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA03362 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:19:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:19:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609200219.VAA03362@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Math Question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:46 PM 9/19/96 -0400, you wrote: >Unless some real efficient heat/electric device was available, and used to >drive the car, not much of a gain will be seen. >Power plants have 2 advantages. THey don't move. So weight of the extra >equipment isn't a problem. And they are amortized over something like >thirty-five years. Helps with the costs. Now while some of us might have >overweight project cars that never move and just eat dollars, that is not >the point! :) > >So I expect that this issue will remain pretty much a sore point unless >somehow we figure out how to use the waste heat to perform mechanical >work. Your car just does not use enough electrical power to gain much by >eliminating the alternator, although of course it is a step in the right >direction. > >John I agree John, but if over 60 percent is waste heat energy out of the radiator and tail pipe it seems simple enough to catch at least 20% of the wasted heat. Read the excerpt from my response to talltom's initial request. The turbine could be substituted for a large vane type air motor couppled to the engine. I think the materials are available to make it happen. ...snip...Think about this, a low pressure turbine connected between the rear axle and tranny (to assist the engine). Hot water from the engine is routed to water jacketed exhaust manifolds for 'super heating'. This steam is then routed to the drive shaft turbine. Low pressure steam leaves the turbine and enters the radiator or back to the engine to be condensed or heated again. And, don't forget the water purification unit right before the turbine. I'm sure there is a simple reason why this will not work, besides cost. I don't know it. Let's see what the thermodynamic experts say. GMD BTW, we use similar unit to generate power with >50% effiency. We essentially vent the exhaust of a gas turbine generator into conventional fossile boiler. Some plants have simply decomissioned a burner and stuck the ass end of the turbine/generator there. The supercritical plant where I work achieves 9,400 - 10,200 btu/killowatt-hour with just a super critical boiler and generator. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 03:45:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA02463; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 03:34:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02457; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:34:49 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p2s09.beaches.net [206.240.81.139]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26651 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:34:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609200334.WAA26651@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:13:09 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > All kinds of stuff! 84 Datsun z cars had a factory g-meter on board, although > limited to .5 g's.(A good hard launch at the strip is at least 3g's.) You won't see 3g's from any thing driven on the street! My Gas dragster only pulled 2.6g's and we were running the quarter mile in the 7's! I was running a 355 inch small block with an 8 inch converter. I released the trans brake with the tach at 5400 RPM! The ProMod guys are pulling that but then again you find many of them on the street either! John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 04:48:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02819; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:39:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from calvin.trd.abc.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA02813; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:38:13 -0400 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by calvin.trd.abc.gov.au (8.6.4/8.6.4.NEGBJB) id OAA15260 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:38:15 +1000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:38:15 +1000 From: David Crocombe Message-Id: <199609200438.OAA15260@calvin.trd.abc.gov.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Learning Systems Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In my last job I used to service a tape recorder synchroniser that would learn the performance of each tape recorder so that it could control it in the most efficient way. It would do a few fast forwards, rewinds, stops and measure the dynamics. Each time it would get a bit better at controlling the machine so that if for example it wanted to go to a particular position on the tape it would know how far before that point it had to go into braking from fast forward to be able to stop slightly ahead of the required point and then drop into play mode to find the exact point. This was very impressive to watch its performance get noticably better as it learnt the dynamic performance. It would be interesting to play with this kind of learning in relation to cars. The vehicles could then be self tuning depending on environment, load, parameter drift, wear or whatever. I guess traction control and antilock brakes are a step in this direction of making cars more intelligent. David Crocombe, Sydney, Australia. --------------------------------------------------------- Reply Seperator --------------------------------------------------------- >There appears to exist a number of sensors to build >an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that >anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock >sensor that just tells me - oops too much - >self destruct sequence initiated. /cut/ The only thing stopping you having a computer tweak the engine parameters for you is that you have to have *accurate* *results* from your measuring system. It seems to me with an accurate performance measure- ment system, anything is possible, but building an *accurate* system is a bit of an ask. /cut/ Use some fuzzy logic to try to improve things over multiple acceleration runs, hey presto, self tuning car. /cut/ record multiple instances of the same speed/RPM/TPS for different spark/fuel parameters, historical EGO info... My idea is to have this running for a race track environment, where the car is doing multiple acceleration and speed runs, repetitively, and I think given a baseline spark/fuel curve, it could quite quickly approach the perfection asymptote... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 05:57:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA02925; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 05:42:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from calvin.trd.abc.gov.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA02919; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:41:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by calvin.trd.abc.gov.au (8.6.4/8.6.4.NEGBJB) id PAA16110 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:41:39 +1000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:41:39 +1000 From: David Crocombe Message-Id: <199609200541.PAA16110@calvin.trd.abc.gov.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Acceleration of Vehicles Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I was wondering how you measured the acceleration of your dragster. This is something I was planning to do with an Analog devices accelerometer. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, David Crocombe, Sydney, Australia. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 11:56:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03338; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:41:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03333; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:41:16 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02752 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:43:54 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA09445; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:41:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Learning Systems In-Reply-To: <199609200438.OAA15260@calvin.trd.abc.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, David Crocombe wrote: > > It would be interesting to play with this kind of learning > in relation to cars. The vehicles could then be self tuning > depending on environment, load, parameter drift, wear or > whatever. I guess traction control and antilock brakes are > a step in this direction of making cars more intelligent. As an examiner at the patent office, I work in the automatic transmisison field, as well as manual transmissions. Adaptive controllers are well documented in the prior art, infact the Chrysler minivan was an adaptive transmission that adjusts for wear in the frictional members to maintain an optimum shift each time. There are others that sense a driving "style" and adjust shift timing to meet that style. There are numerous adaptive engine control schemes, also, but I don't work in that specific field, although all of the automatic transmissions have an engine related component. If I can be helpful in locating some patents for you, please let me know. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 11:56:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03354; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:49:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03348; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:49:12 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.123]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10014 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:08:44 +0200 Message-ID: <323E7443.2757@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:49:55 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: wasted-heat References: <9609192357.AA20212@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi tom cloud wrote: > > What I've observed for electrical power draws: > headlamps 50 watts ~ 4 A > exterior lamps 10-20 watts ~ 2 A > interior lamps 10 watts ~ 1 A > dash lamps 2 watts ~ 200 mA. > ignition coil 50 watts ~ 4 A (intermittent) > radio 2 - xx watts ~ .25 amps (no volume) > tape deck motor 2 watts ~ .2 A > starter 1800 - 3000 watts ~ 150 - 250 A > fuel pump 24 - 120 watts ~ 2 - 10 amps > blower motor ( dunno ) > computer ( dunno ) > > Tom the 140/100 headlamps draw a little more than 4 and there are 6 spots to lighten up the road about the audio sys I'm not sure . The amps are true only for the top load situation and this will be nice but I'm not sure it will ever reach this because the numbers on this new amp-speaker stuff are unbelieveably high. Dan wrote : > I'm running 90/130W (low/high beam) in my headlights, a set of 150W > sealed beam for high beam and a set of 150W spotties. Comes to 180W > at low beam (around town), switch on the high beam and you have 740W > (due to the purposely designed wiring the low beam stays on when the > high beam is switched on), then switch on the spotties (1040W) and > boy, you'll be able to spot a roo 20Km up the road before you hit it. > It does tend to flatten the battery over long periods though, the > alternator drops to about 9.6V @ 6500 rpm when everything is on. > this is the reason I changed alternator to a 105 Amps one nice to know that there are other blind boys are driving on the world my car is white by the way bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 11:56:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03360; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:50:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03349; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:49:16 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.123]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10009 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:08:42 +0200 Message-ID: <323E6EB1.7539@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:26:09 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dirk Wright wrote: > > I would be very careful using water injection on a diesel because the > extremely high compression ratios could easily lead to hydro lock, thus > bendin your connecting rods, or worse. Also, I heard somewhere that > diesels actually *liked* lots of heat, so the cooling effect of water > injection may be a disadvantage. > yeah I felt that too , but bedford had an invention a few years ago something with exhaust feedback or like this and they stated it'll lower the combustion chamber temp lower the noise emission increase mileage and so on so I'm a little bit confused I just changed my thermostat to a warmer one and the difference seems to be positive . any ideas are welcome maybe I could heat the air intake with exhaust-heat ? :) anyway I posted this to get some opinions from the gurus maybe somebody already tried it blown an engine and can tell me to limit the water quantity under 1% of the air taken by the engine bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 12:02:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA03369; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:55:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03364; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:55:20 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02802 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:57:58 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA09889; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:55:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-Reply-To: <199609200146.VAA02128@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Gordon Couger wrote: > > > I think they make stelite valves for about every thing. We use them alot > for valves in propane conversions. The standard drill was to run a new > pickup 5,000 miles to break it in, make the propane conversion, run it > until needed a valve job and put in stelite valves and seats. At least on > the exaust valve. Why would running propane require stellite exhaust valves? Is the temperature of combustion that much higher than gasoline? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 12:52:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA03454; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:43:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03449; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:42:59 -0400 Received: from slip-57-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43288; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:42:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:42:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9609201242.AA43288@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >>There appears to exist a number of sensors to build >>an excellent self tuning EFI, [ snip ] >I have thought about this an awful lot, and plan to put >some of my ideas into practice, once I figure out how >to actually build the thing... I 'spect everybody on this list has thought about this. I guess maybe I'm too conservative, but 'sadistics' (i.e. statistics) says that the closer you gets to perfection, the more effort you expend to get less -- law of diminishing returns. I figure a lot of this has already been solved. I'd like to not have to repeat probably tens of thousands of hours of research and engineering time trying to come up with the same answers. Here's some of my questions: why do you have to re-calibrate if you change your throttle body size, or injector, or whatever else? I mean, I know why, but why can't the bloomin' confuser figger that out for me? Here's my proposed solution: the EGO is purty good at stoich, right? And, if you'll read the data, it's really not too bad off stoich, it's just that the curve gets real steep and is probably not perzactly the same from one to the next. So, why can't you sense when you're in 'cruise' (i.e. small load -- probably determined from MAP, RPM and TPS), find stoich by dynamically changing A/F and remember that? Shouldn't take long to store a table of these points (and each point would be 'refined' by averaging everytime the same point was experienced). Then, rich / lean conditions aren't too far off (EGO-wise). Probably the best way to determine lean (if you're going for max MPG) would be to measure EGT -- probably'd only need to measure one cylinder. On my motorcycle, I put a washer with a thermocouple silver soldered to it under one spark plug and was able to see what I thought were useful operating temp changes. Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he apparently thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been considering -- i.e. timing!!] All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. The EGO does give data either side of stoich -- according to the data stuff I've seen, its repeatability is influenced mostly by temperature, but you should be able to use it to get you purty close -- certainly to the point where 'diminishing returns' means you'll spend more time screwing with it than driving it. [I know I can get 743.375 horsepower, but if I could make 740 and spend 6 months and $5,000 less, could I forget about the 3-3/8 ponies? I dunno. I'd sorta like to have 'em all! But, then ....] The answer to a lotta this seems to me is that we miss one of the most important feedback elements: the driver!!! See, this is where I come back to the question: wadz rong wid doz liddl pots under de dash? I know you digital jocks hate the thought of an analog pot -- so, dammit, put a grey code encoded disk out there (and spend a couple hunnert extra to prove your point!). Bottom line: the confuser can make lotsa decisions, but *YOU* can help it. Now, the prob here is that lotsa of this stuff is reel subjective -- like you can't really tell when you're making max horsepower (you CAN tell if it's way off, but you can't peak it 'cause it's probably changing purty fast). So, I don't have answers. Just questions. Seems like there's gotta be some way the driver can easily provide some limited feedback to his 'self-teaching' confuser widout setting up a *&$^%&* laptop and trying to type on that &*&$^()) thing at 140 mph. (You guyz gotta understand: the last time I laid a wrench on my steed was probably in April. I work lotsa hours. Not looking for sympathy, just saying, I guess, that if I had a lotta time and money I'd probably go for that last .01 ponies. Certainly like to think about it. I'm pretty good at micro-confusers and software. I've been around long enough to not be scared of analog -- in fact, I often see things that'd be better done in an analog way. What I don't know about is the fine points of engine control -- esp. the doo-dads used to sense things and what each of those variables means. I have done enough engineering to recognize that, considering IC engines have occupied lotsa time and money and there sure is lotsa high level stuff written about it, this must be a pretty deep subject. So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 13:57:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03722; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:48:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA03717; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:48:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199609201348.JAA03717@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:55:16 EDT." Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:50:24 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Why would running propane require stellite exhaust valves? Is the >temperature of combustion that much higher than gasoline? > >Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov > It can be very hot if you set for max power. It has to be run rich to keep the exuast gas temp down. Also there is aboslutly no lubrication of the valves by the propane. For some reason it seems to cut the valve and seat worse than gasoline if any crud gets caught between the valve and the seat. Gordon From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 14:42:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA03810; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:32:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03805; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:32:15 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03249 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:34:53 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA17925; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:32:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 In-Reply-To: <323E6EB1.7539@bekes.hungary.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, hoss karoly wrote: > positive . any ideas are welcome > maybe I could heat the air intake with exhaust-heat ? :) > anyway I posted this to get some opinions from the gurus Maybe add a turbo without an intercooler? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 14:42:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA03829; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:36:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03824; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:36:10 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <115204-26394>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:35:58 +0100 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24624; Fri, 20 Sep 96 10:24:49 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma024620; Fri Sep 20 10:24:25 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12650; Fri, 20 Sep 96 10:33:54 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA07322; Fri, 20 Sep 96 10:34:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:34:04 +0100 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609201434.AA07322@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I would be very careful using water injection on a diesel ... Take a look at the tractor pulling deisel engines. They will use up to 15 bar (225 PSI) of boost, and put a lot of water in to control detonation. And they make an ungodly amount of power! On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. Water injection can be used to offset detonation at high power levels, but the water itself will not add any power. The power is added by allowing higher manifold pressures (either WOT or boost) before the engine explodes. The water itself adds no power (regardless of state changes to steam etc.) An engine with lower compression, better combustion chanmber design, aluminum heads, or ceramic coatings, can all do the same job of offsetting detonation. And off of those techniques are simpler (hence more reliable) than water injection. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 15:51:30 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04147; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:39:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04141; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:39:41 -0400 Received: from packbell (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA10313 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32425893.497@net-quest.com> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:40:51 +0000 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ignition timing in conjunction with References: <9609201242.AA43288@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, > this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain > gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. An interesting experience that may prove a point. A car we set up and dyno'd by the power method had some pretty wierd cams on 8.0/1 compression ratio, and turbo'd. the thing loved fuel to make power. Peak power was found at about 8 or 9/1 air fuel. put it on the road and it was extremely sluggish. Due to the air/fuel. Recalibrated the thing to the correct air fuels for the appropriate boost/compression ratio/cams and it all of a sudden ran great. figure this one out. It made better power with more fuel, but didn't accelerate as well. I've seen this one a few times. In this case the torque measurement in car (namely seat of the pants) worked better than the dyno. You can take this one either way, but I still feel that there is a given set of numbers for each combo for air/fuel ratio's that works best. Don't work so hard to find them, just program them in, then let your EGO find them. > I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he apparently > thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Again, the knock sensor is good for us in our application where the knock is so close to peak power. Especially when we see 18 - 21/1 effective compression ratio's on boost, on pump fuels (92-93 octane), lets talk twiddle fingers here. In other situations, as I mentioned earlier, we've seen peak power and the knock limit be 20 degrees apart. It's typically on low compression ratio or really bad combustion chamber designs, but there's a lot of those out there. > Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of > timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been considering > -- i.e. timing!!] Knock sensors are used for timing only. The only car I've seen that does anything else with it is SAAB, they decrease boost and enrichen the mixture upon knock as well as work with timing later. but the try to leave the timing up as far as possibly under the other conditions. > All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. > So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) Try 14.7 - 15 or even up into the 16's if your engine can handle it, it depends on combustion chambers and flame propogation. But at light throttle run as lean as possible with no misfire. Go to 12.8 to 13.3 (pump fuel numbers) for max power and torque normally aspirated. Boosted, lower the air fuel proportionately. We air cooleds have to run down in the 11.4-11.6/1 range at 20 psi with very good intercooling to maintain peak power and reliability. We get slightly better power at about 11.8 - 12/1 but the combustion chambers get too hot. Water cooled's would probably be happy at 11.8-12.0/1. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 16:08:44 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04397; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:00:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA04392; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:00:22 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03526 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:02:55 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA22757; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:00:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats In-Reply-To: <199609201348.JAA03717@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Gordon Couger wrote: > > > It can be very hot if you set for max power. It has to be run rich to keep the > exuast gas temp down. Also there is aboslutly no lubrication of the valves by > the propane. Looks like a good application for water injection. You can run it leaner to get max. power, and keep it cool with the water. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 16:21:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04523; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:11:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA04518; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:11:47 -0400 Received: from slip-57-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17020; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:11:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:11:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9609201611.AA17020@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better when the humididity was hi. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 17:24:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA04745; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:13:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04740; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:13:17 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:15:55 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:13:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368907941-5618052@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Diesel engines work by compressing air past the ignition temp of the fuel, then injecting the fuel near top dead center and getting autoignition.Since it runs extremely lean, lots of excess oxygen is present - hide that fact away. Prior to the intake valve closing, the more air that you can shove into the cylinder, the better. Cooler denser air makes more power because more oxygen is available.After closing the intake valve,more heat is icing on the cake - because the physics of compression will generate the heat to autoignite the fuel - provided there is no excessive heat LOSS to the cooling jacket (like trying to start at 40 below) Simple turbos work fine, because even tho the air is hotter (minor bad thing) more oxygen is available, thus more fuel can be injected and more power. Intercoolers (technically after coolers - but I'm not wearing asbestos underware this week) make more power - but only if you are pushing the oxygen limits by fuel such as in tractor pulling engines. Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. You now are merely using the excess oxygen you have already paid the energy loss's to pump and convert to piston pressure, and so additional fuel adds more output than might be initially expected. Plus, the extra heat and violence in combustion helps better combust the liquid fuel drawing even more power out ot the existing fuel. Works fine - thousands of RV's, light utility trucks and tractor pulling engines have been doing it for years. Bolt on, instant no muss no fuss no brainer extra power. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 17:32:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA04785; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:25:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04780; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:25:27 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:28:10 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Stelite Valves and Propane Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:27:00 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368907206-5662239@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Propane burns at about the same temp as gasoline. See on line exhaustive gasoline faq available at many sites. It also has about the same energy per pound, just less pounds per gallon. Also, depending on who you believe, octane of 112 or higher. Costs less per gallon, by it for my RV at a dollar a gallon including tax. What's the price of premium plus 104 octane boost? Just a thought. Why stelite on conversions. No lubricating lead was a minor concern. Propane conversions typically are in heavy duty applications running at near full power for extended periods of time, thus are at much higher than normal temps Ford on its FT series gasoline truck engines (50's thru 70's) had both intake and exhaust stelite inserts for the load temp wear problem. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 19:17:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA04906; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:03:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from device.data.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04901; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:02:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:53:05 +0200 (sat) From: Kalle Pihlajasaari In-Reply-To: <1368907941-5618052@uia.net> from "Robert Harris" at Sep 20, 96 10:13:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1379 Message-ID: <9609202053.aa13014@device.data.co.za> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All, > Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an > excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. > Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. > (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). > > You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in > proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a > throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto > inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite > until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it > requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( > compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. I know of small diesels (VW Golf/Rabbit) that would when in a real worn state actually run on engine oil that was breathed into the air filter gallery from the crank case due to worn rings and even after the EFI cutoff solenoid was off and no more injection took place the engine would keep going without any governing effect either (lots of power) and the only way to kill the engine was to stall it in high gear with all the brakes. A real supprise for a little old lady driver I'm sure :-) Cheers -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@data.co.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 20:28:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA05111; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:16:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ormail.intel.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA05102; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:16:20 -0400 Received: from relay.jf.intel.com (relay.jf.intel.com [134.134.131.6]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07008 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccmgate@localhost) by relay.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA24484 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ccm.jf.intel.com (ccmgate 3.2 #6) Fri, 20 Sep 96 13:16:09 PDT Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 13:13:00 PDT From: Todd King Message-ID: To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: net etiquette Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi <<< This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris >>> And now the originator is offended, and on and on- so the wisdom of following basic net etiquette should be quite clear by now! Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 20:37:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA05377; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:28:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA05372; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:27:53 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx05-24.teleport.com (ip-pdx05-24.teleport.com [206.163.123.166]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10024 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609201829.LAA10024@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: David Crocombe >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:41:39 +1000 >Subject: Acceleration of Vehicles > >I was wondering how you measured the acceleration of your dragster. >This is something I was planning to do with an Analog devices >accelerometer. >Any information would be appreciated. The reason I used the 3 number is that my drag modeling program says that my rig would develop about 2.7-2.8 g's just off the line. I'm running a blown big block, and do drive it on the street. I think we should look at what we can do more than what it's possible functions are when we're done, with a maximum of flexibility built in if possible. Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. Harry Browne for president 96! From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 20 23:34:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA06490; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:19:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA06485; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:19:47 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.116]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA11157 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:39:24 +0200 Message-ID: <323F0079.1B8A@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:48:09 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 References: <9609201611.AA17020@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi tom cloud wrote: > > [ snip ] > > >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the > >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of > >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. > > I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better > when the humididity was hi. > this is possible - actually I think it's true - but what about the magic numbers cubic inch or cm of water / liter of engine at what rpm and should I add more or less when increasing the rpm ? does anybody know something about this ? bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 01:43:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA06630; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:34:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA06625; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:34:26 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA29478; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:34:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:34:24 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi cc: John@il02dns1.comm.mot.com; Subject: RE: Math Question In-Reply-To: <9609191401.ZM22467@comm.mot.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You have just described the evolution from the normally aspirated I/C engine to one that is turbocharged to one that has a turbine assist for more than just increasing the pressure of the charge (ie, adds mechanical work too) to the turbine engine. It happened a while ago in aviation. :) John On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Jim Butler wrote: > > >From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@li.net] > >Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Subject: Re: Math Question > > > > > > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a > > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we > > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software > > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like > > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. > > > In a relatively old textbook that I have on heat engines (40's or 50's > era) there's a discussion of the idea of following an IC with a gas-turbine. > The context wasn't like that of a turbocharger, but rather with the turbine > shaft connected though a mechanical drive to the driveshaft, hence combining > the output of the two for useful work. > > FWIW, > > Jim > > -- > Jim Butler (butler@comm.mot.com) > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 02:33:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA06698; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 02:25:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA06693; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:25:07 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ptp19.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.241]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA27363 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609210224.VAA27363@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom, I think, what you are proposing is hardware and software that will dyno tune the engine as you drive. Kinda like having a personal staff of performance engineers in a black box to continuously search for that state of "ultimate tune" for your hot rod. I do see potential problems though. For starters, if the system had all the sensors needed to determine the "state of ultimate tune", how long would it take the cpu to find it?? People that dyno tune engines on a regular baises (TODD) would have a very good idea of this. I don't, but I'll guess any way. Let say 20 full throttle quater mile runs just to get maxium dead stop acceleration. There are lots of things to change and adjust, right?. I've done this manually in my early hotrod years. You could spend a whole weekend adjusting and evaluating things. I'm assuming that the system is told a few things and given some baseline parameters to work within. This would make an excellent excuse for a speeding ticket, "My EEPROM got erased officer, so I needed to hold 155mph for 20 minutes to adjust the upper end of my fuel map." I think you get my point, even with a fast cpu it's going to take a few runs to set every thing up. I've been told differently, but I honestly believe the GM TPI system does this to a certian extent with ignition timeing. I've experienced and read (or imagined that I read) that ignition timeing is bumped up in small increments from a baseline value until knock is detected. Then it's retarded a fixed amount and the process starts over again. This is done, I believe, to make the best use of the gas being currently used under the actual current conditions. If GM isn't doing this, remember you herd it from me first:) I would be interested in exploring this futher. It is certianly possible with todays off the shelf components. This would be a DIY'ers dream come true. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 03:30:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA06788; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:24:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA06783; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:24:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199609210324.XAA06783@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 20 Sep 1996 20:53:05 +0200." <9609202053.aa13014@device.data.co.za> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:26:17 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an >> excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. >> Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. >> (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). >> >> You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in >> proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a >> throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto >> inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite >> until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it >> requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( >> compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. > It works great. Just watch your exuast gas temperture. You can melt down a turbo or and engin this way. I don't know if it is still being done but in the 60's & 70's it was used to get you through the "hard spots" by some folks. If they didn't over use it they seemed to get by pretty well. It would be interesting to see what you could do with propane injection and water injection to keep the temperatures under control. One thing I wonder about with water injection is high pressure steam is pretty corosive stuff. I would worry about piston, valve and turbo errosion. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 03:43:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA06819; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:41:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA06814; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:41:45 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:44:28 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:42:30 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368870228-7886130@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> From: hoss karoly > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > Date: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 12:48 PM Try metering it as a linear percentage of fuel you inject. This will give you a single tuning factor - the per cent you wish to inject. All other factors - temp, air flow etc. will have been solved by the EFI. Most written research talks about water injection as a relationship between fuel and water. After all there is a strong correlation between fuel consumed and EXCESS heat available for conversion. This method will allow you to start small, find out what YOUR engine likes and not have to go crazy trying to come up with a complete control system. May not be optimum, but it will go a long way to solving the problem. Besides, if as the skeptics say it only works as an anti-detonant, then you have not invested a lot into putting theory to the pavement. ---- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 04:52:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA06907; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 04:50:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-e2b-service.gnn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA06902; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:50:39 -0400 Received: from 48-184.client.gnn.com. (48-184.client.gnn.com [205.188.48.184]) by mail-e2b-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA05518 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609210450.AAA05518@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com> X-Mailer: GNNmessenger 1.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:36:38 From: Jemikhaas@gnn.com (Michael Haas) To: diy_efi Subject: 6811 Disassembler Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using Base 64. Thank You Very Much Michael J. Haas From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 12:59:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA07447; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:55:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA07442; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:55:04 -0400 Received: by falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA07115; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:52:44 -0400 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:52:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Thor Johnson To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea In-Reply-To: <199609210224.VAA27363@ns.tecinfo.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: > Tom, I think, what you are proposing is hardware and software that will > dyno tune the engine as you drive. Kinda like having a personal staff of > performance engineers in a black box to continuously search for that state > of "ultimate tune" for your hot rod. > I would be interested in exploring this futher. It is certianly possible > with todays off the shelf components. This would be a DIY'ers dream come true. I'll keep lookinghere for ideas/sensors/methods. This is what I hope to accomplish with my homebrew engine mgmt system for FSAE. I think the limiting factor (as tuning speed goes) will be response of the sensors - I've head that O2 sensors can take up to 1sec to responsd... can someone comment on this? (seems to be the slowest sensor...) Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 21 16:36:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA07742; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:33:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from constitution.hotmail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA07737; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:33:02 -0400 Received: from constitution.hotmail.com by constitution.hotmail.com id <1469642(4)>; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:32:55 -0700 Received: from 206.86.127.204 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:32:55 PDT From: "Michael Farrugia" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Finding/constructing a dyno Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <96Sep21.093255pdt.1469642(4)@constitution.hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:32:55 -0700 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello everybody, Currently I am trying to build an electronic engine management unit. To be able to quantize the amount of improvement made I think I would be needing a dynamometer. In fact I am considering buying one depending on the price. Does anyone know the price range for a sinple dynamometer which should be capable to dissipate about 250 bph. I would consider buying new or second-hand depending on the price. If the price is prohibitive I would consider constructing one. So if anyone has ideas on what to use to dissipate the power it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in anticipation Michael Farrugia --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 22 03:47:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA08465; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 03:36:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA08454; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:29:23 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p1s21.beaches.net [206.240.81.121]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA05740 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:28:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609220328.WAA05740@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Acceleration of Vehicles Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:15:41 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I was wondering how you measured the acceleration of your dragster. > This is something I was planning to do with an Analog devices > accelerometer. > Any information would be appreciated. RacePak makes a data logging system that has an accelerometer built into it. From looking at it the ADXL-05 from Analog Devices should work very well. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 22 13:56:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA09097; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:29:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA09091; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:29:40 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07551 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:32:20 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA27907; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:29:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 In-Reply-To: <1368907941-5618052@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Robert Harris wrote: > Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an > excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. > Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. > (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). OK, what if you added NOS also? Cools the intake to some really really cold temperature and adds even more oxygen. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 22 17:00:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA09279; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:41:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA09273; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:41:00 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx11-02.teleport.com (ip-pdx11-02.teleport.com [206.163.124.109]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10775 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609221640.JAA10775@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: D disease Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey Rickydik - you out there? Drove the mbz around some tonight for the first time. Feels like this brain is programmed more toward stoichoimetric, ie big bog. Do the d-jetronic's have a eprom? Is it swapable? The original was a Bosch 0 280 002 013, and the one I replaced it with is a 0 280 002 005. Any ideas? Being as this rig is puny engined anyhow I kneed whatever it can do, and jacking fuel pressure will make a pig of it. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 22 17:00:10 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA09274; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:41:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA09267; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:40:58 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx11-02.teleport.com (ip-pdx11-02.teleport.com [206.163.124.109]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10652 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609221640.JAA10652@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: self tuning efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: Thor Johnson >Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:52:44 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea > >On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: > >> Tom, I think, what you are proposing is hardware and software that will >> dyno tune the engine as you drive. Kinda like having a personal staff of >> performance engineers in a black box to continuously search for that state >> of "ultimate tune" for your hot rod. > >> I would be interested in exploring this futher. It is certianly possible >> with todays off the shelf components. This would be a DIY'ers dream come true. > > I'll keep lookinghere for ideas/sensors/methods. This is what I hope >to accomplish with my homebrew engine mgmt system for FSAE. I think the >limiting factor (as tuning speed goes) will be response of the sensors - >I've head that O2 sensors can take up to 1sec to responsd... can someone >comment on this? (seems to be the slowest sensor...) > > I thought I was the first one to bring that idea up! Oh well. My expierience with o2 sensors sez they're much faster than that. I've even heard of ideas of calculating the time and firing order in such a way as to get an o2 reading for each individual cylinder(we're talking two sensor v8 here) so mixture could be varied from cyl to cyl. Course if outfits like Chevrolet and Kinsler made their ports symetrical that probably wouldn't be necessary.(Oops, I see the latest chev small block figured this out, even went to the smooth firing order!) I believe some manufacturer may be already be doing this. The way I understand the workings of an o2 sensor, one wouldn't think they could be very fast reacting, but they sure as heck seem to be. Sorry I can't get any more specific, but sometimes the impression made on the ahole is what counts most. Maybe I should also add that being a poor dumb sob means that no video camera is available for the guages on a run so I usually get the job of watching guages while sombody else keeps it out of the ditches. The one that gets most attention is o2 sensor. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 00:29:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA09730; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:11:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA09725; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:11:14 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA10875; Mon, 23 Sep 96 07:10:52 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843492128 Mon, 23 Sep 96 08:22:08 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 08:22:08 Message-Id: <9608238434.AA843492128@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: wasted-heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi And who said blind people couldn't drive cars ? All we have to do is blind everyone else and we are equal. This little number with the 1040W is very close in colour to a fluorescent green, really makes it stand out on the race track. The everyday road car, well it's limited to 600W lights and 600W stereo. Still very impressive on a dark road though. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: wasted-heat Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/20/96 9:31 PM tom cloud wrote: > > What I've observed for electrical power draws: > headlamps 50 watts ~ 4 A > exterior lamps 10-20 watts ~ 2 A > interior lamps 10 watts ~ 1 A > dash lamps 2 watts ~ 200 mA. > ignition coil 50 watts ~ 4 A (intermittent) > radio 2 - xx watts ~ .25 amps (no volume) > tape deck motor 2 watts ~ .2 A > starter 1800 - 3000 watts ~ 150 - 250 A > fuel pump 24 - 120 watts ~ 2 - 10 amps > blower motor ( dunno ) > computer ( dunno ) > > Tom the 140/100 headlamps draw a little more than 4 and there are 6 spots to lighten up the road about the audio sys I'm not sure . The amps are true only for the top load situation and this will be nice but I'm not sure it will ever reach this because the numbers on this new amp-speaker stuff are unbelieveably high. Dan wrote : > I'm running 90/130W (low/high beam) in my headlights, a set of 150W > sealed beam for high beam and a set of 150W spotties. Comes to 180W > at low beam (around town), switch on the high beam and you have 740W > (due to the purposely designed wiring the low beam stays on when the > high beam is switched on), then switch on the spotties (1040W) and > boy, you'll be able to spot a roo 20Km up the road before you hit it. > It does tend to flatten the battery over long periods though, the > alternator drops to about 9.6V @ 6500 rpm when everything is on. > this is the reason I changed alternator to a 105 Amps one nice to know that there are other blind boys are driving on the world my car is white by the way bye charley From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 02:51:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA09881; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 02:33:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from akcity.govt.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA09876; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:33:06 -0400 Received: by inetgate.akcity.govt.nz id <20490>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:26:09 +1200 Message-Id: <96Sep23.142609nzst.20490@inetgate.akcity.govt.nz> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:05:00 +1200 From: "Woodd, Michael" Organization: Auckland City To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Subject: RE: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Excuse me? Anyway, >I do see potential problems though. For starters, if the system had all the >sensors needed to determine the "state of ultimate tune", how long would it >take the cpu to find it?? People that dyno tune engines on a regular baises >(TODD) would have a very good idea of this. I don't, but I'll guess any way. >Let say 20 full throttle quater mile runs just to get maxium dead stop >acceleration. There are lots of things to change and adjust, right?. I've >done this manually in my early hotrod years. You could spend a whole weekend >adjusting and evaluating things. All a matter of software - the algorithm used. Actually I was thinking more of a circuit racing application, cos thats what I'm into, being as a car should be nothing more than a tool for the driver, right? ;-) And thats why I stressed the importance of having accurate measurements, cos if they aren't, then your "perfect" algorithm is going to do funny things, like take longer, or maybe even head in the wrong direction. I plan on starting by simply investigating relationships between one sensor and another reading, e.g. acceleration vs vertical g, to account for road bumps, difference tween linear g vs wheel derived acceleration should give us the gravity vector that tells us we're going up/down hill (I think, like I said, don't know the physics well yet). My end system will be a combination of these little black boxes, and for prototyping they may be just that. Mike Woodd (wooddm@akcity.govt.nz) Come on, gimme just one drive, I've been on a track before without pranging it... From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 09:29:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA10366; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:10:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA10361; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:10:18 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17348; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:10:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA93F.9A23ECA0@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:08:51 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA93F.9A23ECA0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Dirk Wright'" Subject: RE: Learning Systems Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:38:18 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bot being up with this stuff.. does it mean if it's patented we cant use = it???? or does it mean that we can use it for our own fun, but not sell = it? (or if we do pay royalties), or would we have to pay to even use it = for fun.... If you get my drift? Mark ;-) ---------- From: Dirk Wright[SMTP:wright@uspto.gov] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 9:41 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Learning Systems On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, David Crocombe wrote: >=20 > It would be interesting to play with this kind of learning > in relation to cars. The vehicles could then be self tuning > depending on environment, load, parameter drift, wear or > whatever. I guess traction control and antilock brakes are > a step in this direction of making cars more intelligent. As an examiner at the patent office, I work in the automatic = transmisison=20 field, as well as manual transmissions. Adaptive controllers are well=20 documented in the prior art, infact the Chrysler minivan was an adaptive = transmission that adjusts for wear in the frictional members to maintain = an optimum shift each time. There are others that sense a driving = "style"=20 and adjust shift timing to meet that style. There are numerous adaptive=20 engine control schemes, also, but I don't work in that specific field,=20 although all of the automatic transmissions have an engine related=20 component.=20 If I can be helpful in locating some patents for you, please let me = know. *************************************************************************= *** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 = 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman = House *************************************************************************= *** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 10:32:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10464; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:13:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10459; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:13:30 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17429; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:12:54 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA948.5FC7F520@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:11:39 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA948.5FC7F520@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Todd Knighton'" Subject: RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:32 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Got my Spitfire SUs jetted to cope withthe exhaust/cam/inlet = trupets/porting/every other bloody thing. Paid a lot of moneyf for it too. Took the hood off, sat a bit of wire in = the top of the vacuum pot, looked where it sat, span the needle up in = the lathe and rubbed several thou' off it with fine wet and dry paper... = did both.. runs a hell of a lot better now than it did after the tuners = (who did a brill job of the other cars we got) did it, by guess work and = sandpaper! Mark I don't recommend this! ---------- From: Todd Knighton[SMTP:knighton@net-quest.com] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 10:41 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ignition timing in conjunction with >=20 > Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, > this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain > gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. =20 An interesting experience that may prove a point. A car we set up and dyno'd by the power method had some pretty wierd cams on 8.0/1 compression ratio, and turbo'd. the thing loved fuel to make power. Peak power was found at about 8 or 9/1 air fuel. put it on the road and it was extremely sluggish. Due to the air/fuel.=20 Recalibrated the thing to the correct air fuels for the appropriate boost/compression ratio/cams and it all of a sudden ran great. =20 figure this one out. It made better power with more fuel, but didn't accelerate as well. I've seen this one a few times. In this case the torque measurement in car (namely seat of the pants) worked better than the dyno. You can take this one either way, but I still feel that there is a given set of numbers for each combo for air/fuel ratio's that works best. Don't work so hard to find them, just program them in, then let your EGO find them. > I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he = apparently=20 > thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Again, the knock sensor is good for us in our application where the knock is so close to peak power. Especially when we see 18 - 21/1 effective compression ratio's on boost, on pump fuels (92-93 octane), lets talk twiddle fingers here. In other situations, as I mentioned earlier, we've seen peak power and the knock limit be 20 degrees apart. It's typically on low compression ratio or really bad combustion chamber designs, but there's a lot of those out there. > Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of > timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been = considering > -- i.e. timing!!] Knock sensors are used for timing only. The only car I've seen that does anything else with it is SAAB, they decrease boost and enrichen the mixture upon knock as well as work with timing later. but the try to leave the timing up as far as possibly under the other conditions. > All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. > So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) Try 14.7 - 15 or even up into the 16's if your engine can handle it, it depends on combustion chambers and flame propogation. But at light throttle run as lean as possible with no misfire. Go to 12.8 to 13.3 (pump fuel numbers) for max power and torque normally aspirated. Boosted, lower the air fuel proportionately. We air cooleds have to run down in the 11.4-11.6/1 range at 20 psi with very good intercooling to maintain peak power and reliability. We get slightly better power at about 11.8 - 12/1 but the combustion chambers get too hot. Water cooled's would probably be happy at 11.8-12.0/1. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 10:32:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10457; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:12:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10451; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:12:55 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17425; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:12:50 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA948.5D5C7360@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:11:35 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA948.5D5C7360@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Todd King'" Subject: RE: net etiquette Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:38:46 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanx for saying it Todd. ---------- From: Todd King[SMTP:Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 10:13 PM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: net etiquette <<< This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris >>> And now the originator is offended, and on and on- so the wisdom of following basic net etiquette should be quite clear by now! Todd Todd_King@ccm.co.intel.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 10:32:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10452; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:12:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10445; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:12:49 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17421; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:12:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA948.439FB4A0@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:10:52 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA948.439FB4A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Michael Haas'" Subject: RE: 6811 Disassembler Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:18:15 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Could somebody send me a base 64 thingy in either UUE or mimed? (and its not cos I want to go thro' alt.bin.. etc!) Mark (who realy should have got hold of one of these things long ago! Byeeeee! ---------- From: Michael Haas[SMTP:Jemikhaas@gnn.com] Sent: Saturday, September 21, 1996 1:37 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 6811 Disassembler Hi, Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using Base 64. Thank You Very Much Michael J. Haas From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 10:33:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA10472; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:15:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA10467; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:15:48 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17433; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:13:02 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA948.645D5BC0@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:11:46 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA948.645D5BC0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:44:47 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv (600 cc flat twin (BMW M/C engine)) ;-) Mark ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 6:12 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 [ snip ] >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better when the humididity was hi. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 12:22:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA10613; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:03:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10608; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:03:21 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA17571 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:03:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA957.C5744180@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:01:52 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA957.C5744180@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: MAP Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:01:46 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What are sensible MAP values? I am trying to decide what pressure transducer to use, and need to know what range MAP pressures are in. I'm sorry for having to ask, but until I get my library in this country, I'm a little stuck for information. Thanks in advance to anybody with any info. PS I don't care what units you use, I'll convert them! TAL Mark From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 13:12:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA10864; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:53:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA10859; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:53:41 -0400 Received: from slip-52-11.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22954; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:53:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:53:39 -0500 Message-Id: <9609231253.AA22954@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >I've head that O2 sensors can take up to 1sec to responsd... can someone >comment on this? (seems to be the slowest sensor...) > > > Thor Johnson Thor, I'm fixin' to sound like I know what I'm talking about -- I don't. That said: The EGO is supposed to be fast enough to respond to each pulse from each cylinder -- hence FOMOCO's SFI. My old town car had SFI and used an EGO in each exhaust manifold. According to the Ford book on emissions devices (don't know the name -- get it at the part$ house), it samples the mixture from each cylinder and adjusts same to achieve optimum fuel distribution. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 14:07:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12070; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:44:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA12065; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:44:45 -0400 Received: from slip-52-11.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29375; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9609231344.AA29375@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: self tuning efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snipetty - snip ] >I thought I was the first one to bring that idea up! Oh well. Yeah, but I thought of it first !! Tom "a legend in his own mind" Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 14:13:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12090; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:58:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA12085; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:58:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199609231358.JAA12085@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: "'tom cloud'" , gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:44:47." <01BBA948.645D5BC0@speed.demon.nl> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:56:57 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi As I recall from my day in the air craft industry the power increase is from lowered altitude density (more O2 in the carb.). I also noticed that running a tractor at night often you could gain a gear on pulling the load. Showing a good deal more power was being produced. Where I was farming the day time altitude density would exceed 5,000 feet. 115 F and 15 percent humidity. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu >Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv (600 cc flat twin (BMW M/C engine)) ;-) >---------- >From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] > > [ snip ] > >>On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >>last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >>a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. > >I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better >when the humididity was hi. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 14:42:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA12209; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:28:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA12204; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:28:08 -0400 Received: from slip-52-11.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38640; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:28:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:28:06 -0500 Message-Id: <9609231428.AA38640@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: MAP Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > >What are sensible MAP values? > Well, lessee: depends on what your sensor reads. If it reads absolute, then it would read 0" mercury at pure vacuum and would read about 29" HG at atmospheric pressure. Most sensors I know about read absolute. If it reads "gauge" (i.e. a reading relative to the current atmos. pressure), then it would read 0" at atmospheric and 29" under total vacuum. Your vacuum gauge you have in your tool kit is a bourdon tube gauge and read "gauge" pressure, not absolute, so, it reads zero when not connected to anything. When connected to a non-blown (i.e. "normally aspirated") engine, it should read maybe 20" - 24" HG during idle or cruise. Higher (greater vacuum) for deceleration, and less for acceleration. So, one atmosphere = 29" mercury = 760 mm HG = 760 torr = 14.7 psi. If you're normally aspirated, you only need to measure from about zero to one atmosphere. If you're blown -- then ... gotta know boost pressure. If 14.7 psi = one atmosphere, then boost of 15 psi means a total range of 0 to a little more than 2 atmospheres. Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 15:04:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA12249; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:51:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA12244; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:51:49 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <115435-4660>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:51:34 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07743; Mon, 23 Sep 96 10:40:19 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007741; Mon Sep 23 10:40:11 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14210; Mon, 23 Sep 96 10:49:18 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA09920; Mon, 23 Sep 96 10:49:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:49:50 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609231449.AA09920@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv ^^^^ That's the secret. A colder charge is a denser charge (more oxygen, and with carbs more fuel) so there is more power. The humidity can help ensure no det- onation, but does not actaully add power. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 15:39:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA12364; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:25:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA12356; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:25:05 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx07-07.teleport.com (ip-pdx01-13.teleport.com [206.163.123.15]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA17309 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609231525.IAA17309@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #284 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: "Woodd, Michael" >Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:05:00 +1200 >Subject: RE: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea > >Excuse me? Anyway, > >>I do see potential problems though. For starters, if the system had all the >>sensors needed to determine the "state of ultimate tune", how long would it >>take the cpu to find it?? People that dyno tune engines on a regular baises >>(TODD) would have a very good idea of this. I don't, but I'll guess any >way. >>Let say 20 full throttle quater mile runs just to get maxium dead stop >>acceleration. There are lots of things to change and adjust, right?. I've >>done this manually in my early hotrod years. You could spend a whole >weekend >>adjusting and evaluating things. > >All a matter of software - the algorithm used. Actually I was thinking more >of a >circuit racing application, cos thats what I'm into, being as a car should >be nothing more than a tool for the driver, right? ;-) > >And thats why I stressed the importance of having accurate measurements, >cos if they aren't, then your "perfect" algorithm is going to do funny >things, like >take longer, or maybe even head in the wrong direction. > >I plan on starting by simply investigating relationships between one sensor >and >another reading, e.g. acceleration vs vertical g, to account for road bumps, >difference tween linear g vs wheel derived acceleration should give us the >gravity vector that tells us we're going up/down hill (I think, like I said, >don't >know the physics well yet). >My end system will be a combination of these little black boxes, and for >prototyping they may be just that. It might be an idea worth considering to have a sensor on a wheel that's not a drive wheel if that's possible for actual vehicle speed as compared to what could be completely spurious numbers. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 23 17:40:53 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12596; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:32:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12590; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:30:39 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA18043; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:30:15 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBA984.C320BB20@speed.demon.nl>; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:23:55 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBA984.C320BB20@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "'Michael F. Sargent'" Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:23:50 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Temperature didn't make as much difference as fog! I know... you have to be crazy to drive a 2cv flat out in mist / fog... but hey shit... it was fun hearing it SCREAM! Mark ;-) ---------- From: Michael F. Sargent[SMTP:MSargent@gallium.com] Sent: Monday, September 23, 1996 4:50 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv ^^^^ That's the secret. A colder charge is a denser charge (more oxygen, and with carbs more fuel) so there is more power. The humidity can help ensure no det- onation, but does not actaully add power. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 01:51:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA13750; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:47:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA13739; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:46:51 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA16667 (8.7.6/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:46:45 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA24848; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:50:44 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA24848; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:50:44 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AD00143; Tue, 24 Sep 96 08:50:43 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609241250.AD00143@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:50:34 est To: diy_efi Subject: MAP Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >What are sensible MAP values? Assuming normal aspiration and sane camshafts, then idle at ~33 kPa (absolute), somewhere between 15-20 kPaA on over-run. WOT is 101.325 kPaA on a standard day or atmospheric pressure on any other day :) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 01:51:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA13751; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:47:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA13741; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:46:52 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA16678 (8.7.6/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:46:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA25270; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:55:42 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA25270; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:55:42 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00147; Tue, 24 Sep 96 08:56:51 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609241256.AA00147@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:56:44 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Fog Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Temperature didn't make as much difference as fog! Fog increases the specific heat of air. This will increase the charge density simply because the air is absorbing the same heat (from the inlet system) but will have a lesser increase in temperature, hence greater density. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 03:55:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA13924; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:50:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bekes1.bekes.hungary.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13919; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:50:52 -0400 Received: from timothy.66 ([195.184.2.114]) by bekes1.bekes.hungary.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA01812 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 05:16:07 +0200 Message-ID: <3241E1BC.3570@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:13:48 +0200 From: hoss karoly Organization: Phoenix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction References: <199609210324.XAA06783@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Gordon Couger wrote: > > >> Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. > It works great. Just watch your exuast gas temperture. You can melt down > a turbo or and engin this way. I don't know if it is still being done > but in the 60's & 70's it was used to get you through the "hard spots" > by some folks. If they didn't over use it they seemed to get by pretty > well. what would you suggest to keep my exh-temp at ? do you know some base-lines like max temp ? > > It would be interesting to see what you could do with propane injection > and water injection to keep the temperatures under control. it definitely will be > One thing I wonder about with water injection is high pressure steam is > pretty corosive stuff. I would worry about piston, valve and turbo > errosion. I don't worry about it too much . I don't plan to stop the engine right after full throttle operation so she'll get time to get clean From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 04:13:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13958; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:09:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA13953; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:09:46 -0400 Received: from jfaubion.beaches.net (p3s21.beaches.net [206.240.81.181]) by wave.beaches.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15396 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:09:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609240409.XAA15396@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:06:53 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > The reason I used the 3 number is that my drag modeling program says > that my rig would develop about 2.7-2.8 g's just off the line. I'm running > a blown big block, and do drive it on the street. Of course the computer could never be wrong. Right? Keep in mind that of several different drag racing calculators we tried, most over estimated the acceleration force of my dragster. In fact, one of them predicted 9, yes NINE g's on launch! These calculated forces usually don't consider the cushioning effect of tires and suspension. > Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. You know as much as I'm against the Clintons, I don't think this list it the place for the political BS. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 08:03:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA14238; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:58:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA14233; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:58:20 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:58:09 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 24 Sep 96 08:58:17 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 24 Sep 96 08:57:49 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:57:41 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Politics Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. >What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? >Two boobs and a country singer! >Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom Can we leave the politics out of this, not just because this is for the discussion of DIY EFI, but some of us are not interested. Not all of us live in the US you know. Martin From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 10:31:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA14438; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:25:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA14433; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:25:26 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx03-02.teleport.com (ip-pdx03-02.teleport.com [206.163.123.74]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08105 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609241025.DAA08105@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: water/temp/mileage Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I had a new scirocco in 79 and it normally got around 25 mpg. One nippy(50s-60s) morning that was kind of foggy in places I drove 134 miles more orless on the freeway and refueled upon arrival. I just about crapped. 2.4 gallons! that's(48 mpg) the only time in the life of the car I ever saw this, and the only thing changed before or after was the weather. >- ---------- >From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] >Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 6:12 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > > [ snip ] > >>On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >>last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >>a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. > >I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better >when the humididity was hi. > >Tom > "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 11:13:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA14623; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:10:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA14618; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:10:21 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx03-02.teleport.com (ip-pdx03-02.teleport.com [206.163.123.74]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA24637 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609241110.EAA24637@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #285 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >------------------------------ > >From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) >Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: self tuning efi > > [ snipetty - snip ] > >>I thought I was the first one to bring that idea up! Oh well. > >Yeah, but I thought of it first !! > >Tom "a legend in his own mind" Cloud Doesn't really matter, either way it's Tom's idea. I certainly don't have the money, or life expectancy needed for a patent, or the capability to put a functioning one together. I'm just hoping some of the rest around here find the idea intriguing enough to do one, and if I'm around long enough, and still have cars around maybe I'll be able to use one. Considering that the latest car I got took 24 years to get to the point I could afford it, I doubt much of it's relevent anyway. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 12:29:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA14711; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:26:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SATURN.ATINC.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14706; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:26:09 -0400 Received: from cc.atinc.com by SATURN.ATINC.COM with SMTP; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 8:26:08 -0400 Received: from ccMail by cc.atinc.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.05) id AA843578746; Tue, 24 Sep 96 20:59:34 EST Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 20:59:34 EST From: "Al Grippo" Message-Id: <9608248435.AA843578746@cc.atinc.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in the group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 k miles in a real environment ? Most of the critical parts for the board which I have accumulated are in the automotive temperature range, but I have not been able to get the 68332 or sram chips in this range. I know the part numbers, but was told by several major suppliers (newark, future, hallmark) that these industrial/ milspec chips are not stock items and must be ordered in large quantities. The same applies to sram (the highest industrial range here is -40 deg C to 70 deg C). Is anyone interested in a group buy for these ? Al Grippo From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 13:11:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14770; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:08:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14765; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:08:25 -0400 Received: from slip-4-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51037; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:08:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:08:23 -0500 Message-Id: <9609241308.AA51037@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: re: Fog Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Temperature didn't make as much difference as fog! > >Fog increases the specific heat of air. This will increase the charge >density simply because the air is absorbing the same heat (from the >inlet system) but will have a lesser increase in temperature, hence >greater density. wha'd he say? it all works out the same, seems t' me -- raise the humidity, get power increase -- i don't imagine it, works at any temp, mebbe this is why so many folks are asking about water injection ?? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 13:18:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14799; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:16:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14794; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:16:42 -0400 Received: from slip-4-15.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17032; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:16:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:16:40 -0500 Message-Id: <9609241316.AA17032@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snippy ] >> Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. > >You know as much as I'm against the Clintons, I don't think this list it >the place for the political BS. > >John Faubion Oh, lighten up !! From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 14:11:42 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14873; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:01:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.microserve.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA14868; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:01:40 -0400 Received: from reality by mail.microserve.net with SMTP (8.6.10/25-eef) id KAA13191; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:01:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:01:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Snyder X-Sender: jsnyder@reality To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures In-Reply-To: <9608248435.AA843578746@cc.atinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Al Grippo wrote: > IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating > temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in the > group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure > these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 > k miles in a real environment ? > > Most of the critical parts for the board which I have accumulated are in the > automotive temperature range, but I have not been able to get the 68332 or sram > chips in this range. I know the part numbers, but was told by several major > suppliers (newark, future, hallmark) that these industrial/ milspec chips are > not stock items and must be ordered in large quantities. The same applies to > sram (the highest industrial range here is -40 deg C to 70 deg C). Is anyone > interested in a group buy for these ? > > Al Grippo Commercial Temp's should be OK if you mount the computer in the passenger side of the firewall. Most ECM's are above/behind the glove box, and others are under one of the front seats. J. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 15:49:36 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA15022; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:41:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15017; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:40:57 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (max4.57.westworld.com [205.230.57.199]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10084 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:40:41 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960924154350.00905f78@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:43:50 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:59 PM 9/24/96 EST, you wrote: > IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating >temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in the >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 >k miles in a real environment ? > I mentioned this problem a while ago. The solution became to not mount the processor under the hood. Not the best, but solves much of the heat problem. Even that still can be on the edge of the temperature extreems. Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 16:20:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15081; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:10:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA15076; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:10:11 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.32) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:12:47 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: water/temp/mileage Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:11:31 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368566129-2965686@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Got new asbestos underwear, so try these thoughts on for size Given: A: The two major products of combustion are carbon dioxide and water B. You make two gallons of water for every gallon of gasoline you burn C: The partial pressure contributed by steam is much higher than that contributed by CO2 or N2 (the other major gas's present) D: You have at least 65 to 70% of the heat released in combustion available as EXCESS heat (i.e. not converted to mechanical energy) E: You want the means to precisely meter the fuel (or why would you be subscribing to this list) and any other engine things - like adding water injection. Contemplate A: Since combustion makes vast quantities of steam where there was no water before, and steam has a good percentage of the partial pressure perhaps it might have something to do with BMEP B: Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) might have some vague relationship to power, torque, mechanical energy developed C: If A and B has any truth, perhaps adding a little bit more water might make a little bit more contribution to BMEP by converting some EXCESS heat to some MORE steam. Your Options: A: Flame the author. If it was not documented by some European dude 40 years ago it must not work or can't be possible or can only work the way the dead dude said prior to the onset of senility or technology. B: Trash the idea, if you haven't heard about it being widely used it ain't going to work anyway. C: Ignore the physics and chemistry of the whole proposition and throw out a whole bunch of ninny so theres and can't be's and apples to road apples comparisons. D: Calculate: Assuming 30 (damned good) percent conversion chemical to mechanical energy 70% Excess heat available. Convert 10% of the EXCESS heat to mechanical energy. That means an addition 7% total conversion by using a heat recovery mechanism. Total engine conversion is now 37% a gain of 20 some percent in power from the same heat. Tell that to any racer, and before you can blink, the kids are sold into slavery, wives off to prostitution and grannies pushing a shopping cart - whatever it takes to put that to the pavement - specially since the difference between first and forget are often a single digit percent of power. E: If D intrigues you, quietly meter some water injection to the engine of your choice. Use your EFI fuel output value to get a baseline and add some injected water (properly distributed and atomized) as a linear percentage of fuel. Vary the percentage slowly upward until you find out what your engine combination likes. You know what a cool foggy day does for you. Now everyday is a cool foggy day and then some. If it makes more power and economy - keep it a secret, because Mr thermodynamics and his Greek Chorus say it can't be done Just blow their doors off and say "Pure F'ng Magic Dude.) Who really care's why why it works, as long as it puts power to the pavement. If Merlin put a spell on a double a fuel dragster and it started winning, believe me every Ricky racer would be looking for a magician. Remember Contempt before Investigation leads to a lot of lost opportunities. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 16:21:27 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15095; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:15:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA15090; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:15:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199609241615.MAA15090@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA221521753; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:15:53 -0400 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:15:52 EDT In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960924154350.00905f78@mail.westworld.com>; from "Sandy" at Sep 24, 96 8:43 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > At 08:59 PM 9/24/96 EST, you wrote: > > IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating > >temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in > the > >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm > sure > >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 > >k miles in a real environment ? > > > > I mentioned this problem a while ago. The solution became to not mount the > processor under the hood. Not the best, but solves much of the heat problem. > Even that still can be on the edge of the temperature extreems. > > > Sandy > > But what about temperatures below zero degrees? Here in the mid-atlantic area of the U.S., there are plenty of mornings where I have to scrape off the frost from the windshield, or replace the radiator because I forgot to add anti-freeze. Will the chips works in the cold region properly? - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 16:58:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15148; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:46:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from zaphod.develcon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA15143; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:46:49 -0400 Received: from wayneb.develcon.com (wayneb.develcon.com [198.169.1.206]) by zaphod.develcon.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04274 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:45:43 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960924164947.006eca10@mailhost.develcon.com> X-Sender: wayneb@mailhost.develcon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:49:47 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Wayne Braun Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:59 PM 9/24/96 EST, you wrote: > IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating >temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in the >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 >k miles in a real environment ? > > Most of the critical parts for the board which I have accumulated are in the >automotive temperature range, but I have not been able to get the 68332 or sram >chips in this range. I know the part numbers, but was told by several major >suppliers (newark, future, hallmark) that these industrial/ milspec chips are >not stock items and must be ordered in large quantities. The same applies to >sram (the highest industrial range here is -40 deg C to 70 deg C). Is anyone >interested in a group buy for these ? > > Al Grippo > For prototypes, I think these parts will work fine. We can get the systems working and work the bugs out etc... It does not usually get much over +40C here so the top end of the temp range is not much of a concern. BUT, winter IS comming. It is already going down to +3C at night, and -40C is not that unusual. I for one will need parts that I can rely on to work at least down to -40C and preferrably -50C. At -40C, things can get very serious in a big hurry and the last thing that you need is a vehicle that will not run due to the cold. Last winter there were days where the temp did not warm up to -40. I know, I know, if its that cold just stay inside, sometimes that is not an option ( my boss has this foolish notion that I should show up for work ). If you are putting together a buy, I'm in. Wayne ( I really need to find a more moderate climate ) Braun Wayne Braun Product Support Services Develcon Electronics EMAIL: Wayne.Braun@Develcon.com HTTP://WWW.Develcon.com Phone 1-800-667-9333 or ( 306 ) 933-3300 FTP://FTP.Develcon.com Standard disclaimer about speaking only for myself etc...... From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 18:39:51 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA15462; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:31:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA15456; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:31:41 -0400 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA25482 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09949 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:31:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:31:00 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960924142337.26ef621a@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:15 PM 9/24/96 EDT, you wrote: >But what about temperatures below zero degrees? Here in the mid-atlantic >area of the U.S., there are plenty of mornings where I have to scrape >off the frost from the windshield, or replace the radiator because >I forgot to add anti-freeze. Will the chips works in the cold region >properly? > >- Bruce I am an EE w/ a few years experiance so I HOPE I know what Im talking about... Most chips will work outside their temp range, but how well is another story. Most analog parts simply wont meet published specs (but when do they?) like offset, slew rate, etc. Most digital stuff still works, but the timing parameters must be relaxed. Every now and then you can find a part that wont work in the cold, but often it can be replaced (w/ another identical part). Often the automative and comercial temp ranges are the same part, but one is tested and guaranteed to the more extreme temps. The only real difference I can tell (from practical experience) is the packaging. The Mil spec stuff is almost always ceramic which may take the temp cycling better, but the comercial and auto stuff appear to be in the same plastic package (hope it doesn't crack at low temp). In a nutshell: If you derate the comercial parts they often work well outside their spec temp range. SMD Remember that your interior can get VERY hot (when your away w/ the windows rolled up) so dont assume your EFI computer will never have to work at 140F+ ambient if its in the passenger compartment (still want to be able to start your car, right? ;) Oh, and the way to keep from replacing the radiator because you forgot to add antifreeze is to use an air cooled engine;) (Im a 911 owner) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 19:11:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA15548; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:06:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from steadfast.teradyne.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA15542; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:06:12 -0400 Received: from donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (donatello.icd.teradyne.com [131.101.7.16]) by steadfast.teradyne.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA04660 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from midnight.icd.teradyne.com by donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/TER-1.43/donatello-1.6) id AA25960; Tue, 24 Sep 96 15:06:08 EDT Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 15:06:08 EDT From: benagh@ICD.Teradyne.COM (Jeff Benagh ) Message-Id: <9609241906.AA25960@donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi To paraphrase Stephen Dubovsky's comment: > In a nutshell: If you derate the comercial parts they often work well > outside their spec temp range. The chips (usually) are physically the same. If there is are several sets of parameters in the databook (comm, ind/auto, military) you can usually just use the other set of numbers. The commercial parts were not sample tested in the other temp range though. And the packaging might be slightly different. It's often quite a challenge to effectively remove heat from parts, especially when the ambient is 50C or so. In general, the cooler you run them the longer they will last, which isn't usually a factor for hobbyist types. Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 19:11:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA15555; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:07:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA15550; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:07:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199609241907.PAA15550@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:13:48 +0200." <3241E1BC.3570@bekes.hungary.net> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:14 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Gordon Couger wrote: >> >> >> Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. >> It works great. Just watch your exuast gas temperture. You can melt down >> a turbo or and engin this way. I don't know if it is still being done >> but in the 60's & 70's it was used to get you through the "hard spots" >> by some folks. If they didn't over use it they seemed to get by pretty >> well. > >what would you suggest to keep my exh-temp at ? >do you know some base-lines like max temp ? > I don't recall. But I think it is pretty well documented in almost any thing that discusses turbo chargers. >> >> One thing I wonder about with water injection is high pressure steam is >> pretty corosive stuff. I would worry about piston, valve and turbo >> errosion. > >I don't worry about it too much . I don't plan to stop the engine right >after >full throttle operation so she'll get time to get clean I am not worried so much about condensed water but the superheated steam itself. If you are running hot at all and shut down from full power you will end up with warped valves and frozen trubos if you do it very often. Gordon From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 19:26:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA15600; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:19:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA15595; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:19:32 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.37) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:22:13 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:15:49 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368554763-3611382@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From many years experience in the aerospace industry operating temperatures are much more important than storage temps. Mounting the components within the passenger compartment will keep commercial quality components well within specs regardless of outside temp. The mil-spec components price will shock your shorts off- so remember the big difference at high temps is the heat dissipation capabilities of the chips. Think not? I know many PC's that people paid top dollar for are running pushed processors (lower speed rated chips operated at higher clock speeds) with a big fan glued to the chip. Built a few myself (with the customer knowing it). I could go into why hot chips get hotter - suffice to say that as temp goes up, resistance goes down so current go's up causing temp to go up so resistance goes down - ad naseum until either temp stabilizes or chip fries. Pesky laws of physics again. Do like PC's do. Mount cooling fans to flow air over chips. Consider Pelzior effect cooling chips - I use them on Cyrix 686-166 chips in mini-towers. Makes cold directly from current. Available from many sources. But the best cure is to condition the signals and mount the box inside. Believe me, the control electronics for jet engines aren't bolted to the afterburner. Cold temperatures specs relate more to physical properties rather than electronic. Storing cold like South Dakota blizzard and bringing gently to human temperature (like in passenger compartment) is not generally harmful. Blowing 4 second pass's at 40 below may crack, shatter or otherwise physically destroy said chips. Nice side effect - the metal firewall between the engine and the control box's blocks many of the stray EM (radio frequency noise) currents that can really hose up CPU's and memory etc. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- > From: Al Grippo > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Chip operating temperatures > Date: Tuesday, September 24, 1996 6:59 PM > > IC chips for automotive use are generally specified as having operating > temperatures from -40 deg C to 125 or 150 deg C. The 68332 chips bought in the > group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure > these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 > k miles in a real environment ? > > Most of the critical parts for the board which I have accumulated are in the > automotive temperature range, but I have not been able to get the 68332 or sram > chips in this range. I know the part numbers, but was told by several major > suppliers (newark, future, hallmark) that these industrial/ milspec chips are > not stock items and must be ordered in large quantities. The same applies to > sram (the highest industrial range here is -40 deg C to 70 deg C). Is anyone > interested in a group buy for these ? > > Al Grippo From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 20:26:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA15692; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:21:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA15687; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:21:30 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.31) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:24:05 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:22:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368551051-3834617@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Before being over-concerned about the chip operating temp, I'd look at the PC board itself. These boards are nothing but thin etched metal overlaid on a fiber-glass like material with a lot of resin. Every temperature cycle dries out a little more resin. They get brittle with age. They crack with vibration. They stress with each cycle - the board grows and shrinks at a rate different than the metal traces. Think I'm kidding. A desk top pc generally lasts until the owner can't stand it anymore, while a laptop is generally a tosser at about 3 to 4 years. Laptops get real brittle, with hairline cracks that can't be found or fixed. Symptoms like random freeze ups etc. = bad board. Why - vibration - temperature cycles - pressure cycles - that the desktop living at human comfort temperatures and no motion stress does not see. If it was up to me (and most German, Japanese and American car manufactures seem to follow the practice) I'd mount the board where there was the least thermal and mechanical stress possible and minimize the problem. Just a thought. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 20:29:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA15712; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:27:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA15707; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:27:48 -0400 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id WAA22528; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:27:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sputnic.jrt.se(192.71.169.4) by valle.nexus.se via smap (V3.1.1) id xma022525; Tue, 24 Sep 96 22:27:13 +0200 Received: (from jr@localhost) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA09334 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:08:44 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:08:44 +0100 From: Johan Rodling Message-Id: <199609242108.WAA09334@sputnic.jrt.se> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: D disease X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From owner-diy_efi-outgoing@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Sun Sep 22 19:57 GMT 1996 > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) > X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: talltom > Subject: Re: D disease > > > Hey Rickydik - you out there? Drove the mbz around some tonight for the > first time. > Feels like this brain is programmed more toward stoichoimetric, ie big bog. > Do the > d-jetronic's have a eprom? Is it swapable? The original was a Bosch 0 280 > 002 013, > and the one I replaced it with is a 0 280 002 005. Any ideas? Being as this > rig is > puny engined anyhow I kneed whatever it can do, and jacking fuel pressure > will make > a pig of it AS far as I know the D-Jetronic is an analog MAP system built on transistors. Got one my self. It's primarly designed for 4- & 6- cylinders, but is also used on V12's with a booster amplifier for the injetors. It works in batch mode, so it fires a group three injectors three times (?) each cycle. Those two part num's that you got could be different sets for e.g. a 4-cyl & a 6-cyl engine, but I'm not sure. I sugest that you take a peak inside the box and for instance check how many transistors are mounted on the cooler. This might give a lead (the V12 type has no cooler). Good Luck :-) /JR Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR '74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 20:50:55 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA15773; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:47:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA15768; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:46:49 -0400 Received: from slip-2-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17505; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:46:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:46:25 -0500 Message-Id: <9609242046.AA17505@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 12:15 PM 9/24/96 EDT, you wrote: > >>But what about temperatures below zero degrees? H [ snip ] >about... Most chips will work outside their temp range, but how well is >another story. Most analog parts simply wont meet published specs (but when >do they?) like offset, slew rate, etc. Most digital stuff still works, but Precisely, but lets understand: a digital part is just an analog circuit in saturation (unless you're talking ECL, in which case it's analog stuff that's NOT in saturation). So, the analog parameters that shift cause the degradation of the "digital" performance. [BTW I have done analog and digital design for a long time -- and I find that the parts most likely to be on the ragged edge of specs are the digital ones -- esp. from certain (smaller) mfgrs.] >the timing parameters must be relaxed. Every now and then you can find a >part that wont work in the cold, but often it can be replaced (w/ another >identical part). Often the automative and comercial temp ranges are the >same part, but one is tested and guaranteed to the more extreme temps. The >only real difference I can tell (from practical experience) is the >packaging. The Mil spec stuff is almost always ceramic which may take the >temp cycling better, but the comercial and auto stuff appear to be in the >same plastic package (hope it doesn't crack at low temp). Typically, have three temp / performance ranges: commercial, industrial, and military. Price increases exponentially. Military usually has best specs, most tolerance for supply voltage and temp variation, etc. Usually has better plating on pins and is in ceramic header since epoxy softens and melts at the upper end of the mil-spec temp range. Also, can get better moisture sealing with ceramic. [One of the failure modes is moisture drawn into a hot chip as it cools down -- most pronounced with the plastic packages.] If you'll look at the "storage" specs you'll see that they can all be stored at high temps -- so, it's the packaging and whether or not the device goes out of spec that determines its rating. At high temps, the carriers tend to migrate across the junctions producing *permanently* degraded performance. All the cold will do is *temporarily* push the operating region out of spec. -- make it not work right (i.e. you could be walking). Bottom line: heat destroys; cold just makes it not work -- just like the rest of the stuff in your car. > In a nutshell: If you derate the comercial parts they often work well >outside their spec temp range. >SMD > >Remember that your interior can get VERY hot (when your away w/ the windows >rolled up) so dont assume your EFI computer will never have to work at 140F+ >ambient if its in the passenger compartment (still want to be able to start >your car, right? ;) Be sure to have adequate heat sinking to the enclosure to get the heat out of its interior. > Oh, and the way to keep from replacing the radiator because you forgot to >add antifreeze is to use an air cooled engine;) (Im a 911 owner) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 20:57:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA15797; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:55:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA15791; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:55:02 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA02589 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:55:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199609242055.PAA02589@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:01:28 +0000 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > To paraphrase Stephen Dubovsky's comment: > > > In a nutshell: If you derate the comercial parts they often work well > > outside their spec temp range. > > The chips (usually) are physically the same. If there is are several > sets of parameters in the databook (comm, ind/auto, military) you can > usually just use the other set of numbers. > An additional factor to ease your mind. The parts will only have to operate in that extreme cold condition for a *very* short time. The power consumption of the parts will heat them very quickly relative to that low of an ambient temp. Obviously later the heat of the cabin will bring them up to a comfortable temp. To take it one step further, it isn't terribly difficult to add a heater circuit that will turn on power to a several watt resistor when the ambient is below a certain threshold temp. Almost always, this is the most practical way to extend operation of a circuit into frigid temps due to the (sometimes) availability problems of wide temp parts. -mike mfahrion@bb-elec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Sep 24 21:31:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA15908; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:25:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA15903; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:25:13 -0400 Received: from slip-2-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41445; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:25:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:25:09 -0500 Message-Id: <9609242125.AA41445@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>From many years experience in the aerospace industry >operating temperatures are much more important than >storage temps. Mounting the components within the >passenger compartment will keep commercial quality >components well within specs regardless of outside temp. > >The mil-spec components price will shock your shorts off- Yep >so remember the big difference at high temps is the heat >dissipation capabilities of the chips. Think not? the parameters of the chip itself change with delta-T, so the chips are spec'd within certain limits. As I said in another post, the next biggie after what the manufacturer guarantees the chip to do is the physical limitation of package (epoxy vs. ceramic). Epoxy gets soft and melts / burns. It also allows moisture to creep into the chip. So, the same chip *might* function at high temp were it put into a better header -- then again, it might not, as the mfgr selects the better chips to charge more money for them! >I know >many PC's that people paid top dollar for are running pushed >processors (lower speed rated chips operated at higher >clock speeds) with a big fan glued to the chip. Yep, the heat in a digital circuit is mostly generated during the rise and fall time -- not while its HI or LO, so slower chips, pushed to faster PRR (i.e. clock period), will get hotter, as the transitions are occuring more often per unit of time. Therefore a heat sink is necessary. >Built a few >myself (with the customer knowing it). I could go into why >hot chips get hotter - suffice to say that as temp goes up, >resistance goes down so current go's up causing temp to go >up so resistance goes down - ad naseum until either temp Depends on whether we're talking about bipolar transistors for field effect transistors. Bipolars experience what is called *thermal runaway* due to their Beta increasing with temperature. In FET's, a drop in resistance actually produces lower heat dissipation, since P=EI and lower R means lower E dropped across the switch. When selecting an FET switch, one of the major parameters is lowest R(on). What we perceive as a high temp actually means a *real* hot spot(s) inside on the chip. At temps over something like 175 C or 200 C or so, migration of carriers begins and the switching speeds begin to deteriorate (permanently), causing more heating -- and on and on. >stabilizes or chip fries. Pesky laws of physics again. > >Do like PC's do. Mount cooling fans to flow air over chips. >Consider Pelzior effect cooling chips - I use them on Cyrix 686-166 >chips in mini-towers. Makes cold directly from current. Available >from many sources. But the best cure is to condition the signals Can mount metal tabs from the main heat generating sources to the enclosure (or mount them directly on the enclosure) with fins on the outside to help remove heat -- should be adequate for any condition you're willing to live in. [ snip sommore ] From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 00:01:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA17394; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:59:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA17389; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:58:49 -0400 Received: from slip-2-1.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17014; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:58:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:58:42 -0500 Message-Id: <9609242358.AA17014@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Oh me, PCB's are *extremely* durable! You can often bend one almost double without causing any damage. Hair line cracks are usually caused in the manufacture process due to a slight imperfection in either the mask (negative or positive) or the resist. 1/16" epoxy-glass boards are made from (typically) four layers of fine fiberglass cloth impregnated with epoxy resin. They last for many years -- there's stuff out there that's been working everyday for over twenty years!!! The major problem in circuit board failure (and this is an industry statistic) is solder joints. The major cause of problems in circuits overall is connectors. The rule of thumb is solder it rather than use a connector (includes IC sockets) unless it has to be removable. It is not true that the boards dry out or get brittle -- not epoxy glass. Phenolic starts out brittle (that's what you typically get if you buy from Radio Shack!) and is a very poor substrate (that's what you call the stuff under the copper foil the traces are made from). The wiring in car dashes is usually a flexible PCB made from a mylar film with the copper foil on it. It is true that problems can be created by the way components are mounted on the PCB. For example, GE made a two-way radio still used in many police, taxi, and other commercial apps called a Master-II. The audio board is surrounded by a casting and is about 5" square (been several years since I've been into one). The push-pull audio output stage was two TO-220 transistors (much like the transistors used to pulse injectors in EFI circuits) which were soldered to the board and bolted to the casting for heat dissipation. A common occurence was intermittent or failed audio due to the leads pulling away from the transistor's chip inside its header. See, the board was firmly mounted and the transistor was also, being bolted down, so as it heated and cooled there was no room for expansion/contraction eventually causing failure. This problem was easily fixed by putting a little "jog" in the transistor's leads so it could move a teensy bit. (Yes, "teensy" *IS* a technical term!) I used to work with shake tables big enough to put a refrigerator on. We simulated the vibes from rocket engines. At resonance, it's really neat to see stuff fly apart -- but PCB's weren't the problem. Everything else was. The case, the mountings, the connectors. Any large items on the PCB are also at risk -- e.g. relays, transformers, pots, switches, etc. The PCB itself is purty damm tuff!! So: (in the order I think most important, i.e. it's debatable) - Protect your components from temperature extremes. Put heatsinks on things that get hot, but remember, that if the heat goes into a closed box, it will just heat everything else up, and the heatsink cannot work very well in a closed space. Try to get the heat outside, if at all possible, by providing aluminum or copper (low thermal resistance) paths directly from the part to the case. Your enclosure should be aluminum. Don't use steel or plastic as the heat can't get out. - Protect your circuit from dirt and humidity. Digital circuits aren't too sensitive to current leakage due to moisture / dirt combo but your sensors are analog and Hi-Z. That means they are seriously affected by even slight moisture or dirt. (Frankly, I'm amazed the EGO works as well as it does, since its connector is near a serious heat source and is exposed to lots of dirt and water.) It's not a bad idea to coat the PCB. A solder mask is a real help in preventing humidity problems (on the other hand, it can be a real PITA if a break should occur in a trace somewhere). - Protect it from undue vibration (don't put heavy things on the PCB, or if you must, be sure the board is supported near them). - Dont put stress on connectors. Keep them away from dirt and liquids (water, oil, grease, battery acid, etc.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Before being over-concerned about the chip operating temp, >I'd look at the PC board itself. These boards are nothing but >thin etched metal overlaid on a fiber-glass like material with >a lot of resin. Every temperature cycle dries out a little more >resin. They get brittle with age. They crack with vibration. They >stress with each cycle - the board grows and shrinks at a rate >different than the metal traces. Think I'm kidding. A desk top >pc generally lasts until the owner can't stand it anymore, while >a laptop is generally a tosser at about 3 to 4 years. Laptops >get real brittle, with hairline cracks that can't be found or fixed. >Symptoms like random freeze ups etc. = bad board. Why - >vibration - temperature cycles - pressure cycles - that the >desktop living at human comfort temperatures and no motion >stress does not see. > >If it was up to me (and most German, Japanese and American car >manufactures seem to follow the practice) I'd mount the board >where there was the least thermal and mechanical stress possible >and minimize the problem. Just a thought. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 05:02:34 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18040; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 05:00:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18035; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:00:17 -0400 Received: from dewhisna.ix.netcom.com (mem-tn2-05.ix.netcom.com [205.184.141.69]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA19642 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:00:15 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960925045950.006f6138@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: dewhisna@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:59:50 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Donald Whisnant Subject: Re: 6811 Disassembler Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: Michael Haas[SMTP:Jemikhaas@gnn.com] >Sent: Saturday, September 21, 1996 1:37 AM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: 6811 Disassembler > >Hi, > > Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using Base 64. > > Thank You Very Much > > Michael J. Haas > Michael... I tried to email you a copy, but the message bounced back to me with an "unknown host" error... Email me private with your correct email address and I'll try again... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@ix.netcom.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 07:49:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA18211; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:45:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA18206; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:45:22 -0400 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id RAA20327 (8.7.6/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:45:17 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22667; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:15:41 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA22667; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:15:41 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AC00054; Wed, 25 Sep 96 15:19:28 edt From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9609251919.AC00054@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:19:18 est To: diy_efi Subject: Re: water/temp/mileage Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >the only time in the life of the car I ever saw this, and the only >thing changed before or after was the weather. And the gas pump/petrol bowser or whatever you guys call it. :) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 07:58:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA18244; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:56:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA18239; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:56:01 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21696; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:55:53 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBAAC7.8F92D880@speed.demon.nl>; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:54:36 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBAAC7.8F92D880@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'tom cloud'" , "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: Chip operating temperatures Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:48:59 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Most boards that do get a dry joint over time can be fixed with an = electric paint stripper! Just put a dab of fresh solder on some strategic (and usualy the worst = looking) pins so you can see which bits have got hot, and wave the ol' = industrial hair dryer over it till it all melts!=20 Surface mount people call it infra red reflow! I call a damn sight = quicker that going all over a board (esp SMT) with an iron! Mark ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 1996 1:59 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Oh me, PCB's are *extremely* durable! You can often bend one almost double without causing any damage. Hair line cracks are usually caused in the manufacture process due to a slight imperfection in either the mask (negative or positive) or the resist. 1/16" epoxy-glass boards are made from (typically) four layers of fine fiberglass cloth impregnated with epoxy resin. They last for many years -- there's stuff out there that's been working everyday for over twenty years!!! The major problem in circuit board failure (and this is an industry statistic) is solder joints. The major cause of problems in circuits overall is connectors. The rule of thumb is solder it rather than use a connector (includes IC sockets) unless it has to be removable. It is not true that the boards dry out or get brittle -- not epoxy glass. Phenolic starts out brittle (that's what you typically get if you buy from Radio Shack!) and is a very poor substrate (that's what you call the stuff under the copper foil the traces are made from). The wiring in car dashes is usually a flexible PCB made from a mylar film with the copper foil on it. It is true that problems can be created by the way components are mounted on the PCB. For example, GE made a two-way radio still used in many police, taxi, and other commercial apps called a Master-II. The audio board is surrounded by a casting and is about 5" square (been several years since I've been into one). The push-pull audio output stage was two TO-220 transistors (much like the transistors used to pulse injectors in EFI circuits) which were soldered to the board and bolted to the casting for heat dissipation. A common occurence was intermittent or failed audio due to the leads pulling away from the transistor's chip inside its header. See, the board was firmly mounted and the transistor was also, being bolted down, so as it heated and cooled there was no room for expansion/contraction eventually causing failure. This problem was easily fixed by putting a little "jog" in the transistor's leads so it could move a teensy bit. (Yes, "teensy" *IS* a technical term!) I used to work with shake tables big enough to put a refrigerator on. We simulated the vibes from rocket engines. At resonance, it's really neat to see stuff fly apart -- but PCB's weren't the problem. Everything else was. The case, the mountings, the connectors. Any large items on the PCB are also at risk -- e.g. relays, transformers, pots, switches, etc. The PCB itself is purty damm tuff!! So: (in the order I think most important, i.e. it's debatable) - Protect your components from temperature extremes. Put heatsinks on things that get hot, but remember, that if the heat goes into a closed box, it will just heat everything else up, and the heatsink cannot work very well in a closed space. Try to get the heat outside, if at all possible, by providing aluminum or copper (low thermal resistance) paths directly from the part to the case. Your enclosure should be aluminum. Don't use steel or plastic as the heat can't get = out. - Protect your circuit from dirt and humidity. Digital circuits aren't too sensitive to current leakage due to moisture / dirt combo but your sensors are analog and Hi-Z. That means they are seriously affected by even slight moisture or dirt. (Frankly, I'm amazed the EGO works as well as it does, since its connector is near a serious heat source and is exposed to lots of dirt and water.) It's not a bad idea to coat the PCB. A solder mask is a real help in preventing humidity problems (on the other hand, it can be a real PITA if a break should occur in a trace somewhere). - Protect it from undue vibration (don't put heavy things on the PCB, or if you must, be sure the board is supported near them). - Dont put stress on connectors. Keep them away from dirt and liquids (water, oil, grease, battery acid, etc.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Before being over-concerned about the chip operating temp, >I'd look at the PC board itself. These boards are nothing but >thin etched metal overlaid on a fiber-glass like material with >a lot of resin. Every temperature cycle dries out a little more >resin. They get brittle with age. They crack with vibration. They >stress with each cycle - the board grows and shrinks at a rate >different than the metal traces. Think I'm kidding. A desk top >pc generally lasts until the owner can't stand it anymore, while >a laptop is generally a tosser at about 3 to 4 years. Laptops >get real brittle, with hairline cracks that can't be found or fixed. >Symptoms like random freeze ups etc. =3D bad board. Why - >vibration - temperature cycles - pressure cycles - that the=20 >desktop living at human comfort temperatures and no motion >stress does not see. > >If it was up to me (and most German, Japanese and American car=20 >manufactures seem to follow the practice) I'd mount the board=20 >where there was the least thermal and mechanical stress possible >and minimize the problem. Just a thought. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 11:55:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA18514; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:51:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA18509; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:51:26 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 25 Sep 96 07:50:20 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23669; Wed, 25 Sep 96 07:54:55 EDT Message-Id: <9609251154.AA23669@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:00:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: "Mike Fahrion" > To take it one step further, it isn't terribly difficult to add a > heater circuit that will turn on power to a several watt resistor > when the ambient is below a certain threshold temp. Almost always, Woah! I think we're getting a bit far afield here. Heat is the real killer of electronics. I doubt that even -40C would be detrimental to most electronics, especially IC's. --- David Parrish Here in Georgia, freezers don't even see -40! From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 13:49:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA18902; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:44:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA18897; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:44:19 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26680 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:44:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199609251344.IAA26680@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:50:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > From: "Mike Fahrion" > > > To take it one step further, it isn't terribly difficult to add a > > heater circuit that will turn on power to a several watt resistor > > when the ambient is below a certain threshold temp. Almost always, > > Woah! I think we're getting a bit far afield here. Heat is the real > killer of electronics. I doubt that even -40C would be detrimental to > most electronics, especially IC's. > Sorry if I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This method is used to extend the cold temp range of standard commercial parts (0 degrees C - which can be a real problem). The original post refered to problems getting industrial spec'ed parts for the application. The heater circuit turns on power to a heating resistor (usually just a few watts) below a threshold temp (say 0 degrees C). Obviously it doesn't stay on indefinately - usually a bit of hysteresis is called for - say shut off the power at 5 degrees C. If the cost &/or availability of industrial or mil spec parts is a problem this is a great solution. One case where I used this solution was a design for use in Canada in an outdoor, unheated box. Several hundred of them have been working great with commercial spec parts for 3 years now. In that case delivery of a required part was 44 weeks vs stock for commercial spec, and 8 times the cost. That's not too uncommon.... -mike mfahrion@bb-elec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 14:02:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA18942; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:59:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA18936; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:59:44 -0400 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA14459 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA13936 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:59:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:59:37 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960925095212.26ef6a96@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:46 PM 9/24/96 -0500, you wrote: > [ snip ] > >Precisely, but lets understand: a digital part is just an analog circuit >in saturation [snip] You sound like an analog guy, I seem to remember that quantum physics says the world is digital (quantum levels) ;) (Im actually an analog/RF guy myself) S'am not looking for a flame'MD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 14:02:39 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA18954; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:01:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA18948; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:01:47 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.32) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:04:30 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:02:24 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368487426-7661084@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi All I know is the crap that I find in repairing brand name PC's such as Packaged Hell, IBM, Dell, Gateway and Huo Fwung Dung Clones. The boards are dog shit and don't last unless dey ain't been fusted with. Since shop labor rates start at $45.00 an hour and my on site rate is $75.00 an hour, I really don't either try to repair them or determine wether there is a hairline crack or the component joint failed. I don't care - it don't work, its a tosser. The customer don't want to spend 45 bucks an hour - open end to find and fix a hairline crack on a PC. And I guess these must be the cheap radio shack boards because if you try bending them - they break rat now - real easy. Yes I have seen some wazoo mil-spec shit out there last forever - mostly used on airplanes older than the pilots. I am currently working a contract as an software integration engineer on a Methuselah bird, so if they is done right, I know they can last. Point is, was that the whole damned assembly is much more prone to failure from vibration and heat than the components themselves. Move it to human comfort zone and just avoid all the problems. Side note - ever see the sci fi "Plasma Storms" or whatever. That is sort of what the EMF environment is under the hood of a car. Each time a plug fires there is an extreme amount of energy generated from dc up into the microwave region. Used to call it spark gap transmission - thats how Marconi made his first wireless transmission across the Atlantic. There is a rotating ball of EMF around the alternator and kicking the starter over - does the word EMP mean anything? Give you a clue - it's the pulse from a nuclear event that fries the insides of devices electronic. It's simulated by a large current released thru an inductor - sort of like the collapsing field of a starter motor. If you can get your electronics out of that extremely hostile EMF environment - say by putting a grounded metal firewall between it and your computer, you will save one hell of a lot of time sorting between real data and random induced noise. Also don't forget to filter the DC as those lines carry a LOT of induced noise. > From: tom cloud > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures > Date: Tuesday, September 24, 1996 4:58 PM > > Oh me, PCB's are *extremely* durable! You can often bend one almost > double without causing any damage. Hair line cracks are usually ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 15:21:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23115; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:16:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23110; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:16:02 -0400 Received: from slip-49-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40296; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:15:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:15:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9609251515.AA40296@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, dibble@hagar.ph.utexas.edu From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >At 03:46 PM 9/24/96 -0500, you wrote: > >> [ snip ] >> >>Precisely, but lets understand: a digital part is just an analog circuit >>in saturation > [snip] > > You sound like an analog guy, I seem to remember that quantum physics >says the world is digital (quantum levels) ;) (Im actually an analog/RF guy >myself) > >S'am not looking for a flame'MD actually, they're teaching quantum stuff in freshman chemistry, gen'l physics, etc. now. You show me your electron and I'll show you mine, and if you can go from here to there without ever being anywhere in between I'll ..... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 15:34:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23338; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:31:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23333; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:31:47 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15642 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:34:31 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA02573; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:31:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: D disease In-Reply-To: <199609242108.WAA09334@sputnic.jrt.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Johan Rodling wrote: > > AS far as I know the D-Jetronic is an analog MAP system built on transistors. Got one my self. It's primarly designed for 4- & 6- cylinders, but is also used on V12's with a booster amplifier for the injetors. It works in batch mode, so it fires a group three injectors three times (?) each cycle. I've got a bunch of patents on the D-Jet system. It's comprised of a bistable multivibrator, triggered by the extra distributor points, which then triggers a mono-stable multivibrator with variable pulse length. Pulse length is responisve to temperature, manifold vacuum, throttle position, and speed. The bistable multivibrator determines the start of each pulse, the mono-stable multivibrator determines the length of the pulse. The output of the bistable multivibrator and the monostable multivibrator are fed to a pair of AND gates, which in turn drive a pair of power transistors that turn the injectors on and off. For four-cylinder cars, injectors are fired in pairs once every other revolution, so that one of the pairs is fired early and the other is fired right on time. The result is that the ones that are fired early don't make as much power, especially at low revs, because the fuel is less well atomized. At high revs, it doens't make much difference, since the fuel only sits for a very short time on the early cylinders. Hope this helps. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 15:56:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA23542; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:54:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23537; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:54:41 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15679 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:57:25 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA03732; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:54:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures In-Reply-To: <199609251344.IAA26680@rs232.bb-elec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Mike Fahrion wrote: > > > > Sorry if I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This method is used > to extend the cold temp range of standard commercial parts (0 > degrees C - which can be a real problem). The original post refered > to problems getting industrial spec'ed parts for the application. > The heater circuit turns on power to a heating resistor (usually just > a few watts) below a threshold temp (say 0 degrees C). Obviously it > doesn't stay on indefinately - usually a bit of hysteresis is called > for - say shut off the power at 5 degrees C. > I guess if you installed the chips under the heated driver's seat, you could kill a couple of birds with one stone.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 16:39:05 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23648; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:35:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ceatlabs.okstate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23643; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:35:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199609251635.MAA23643@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi cc: gcouger@ceatlabs.okstate.edu Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:50:52 -0000." <199609251344.IAA26680@rs232.bb-elec.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:34:23 -0500 From: Gordon Couger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There are some resistors that increase resistance with temperature. I used some for a student lab where they were controling the heat with a computer and needed a lot of heat in a hurry but it needed to be fail safe. These resistors will put out a fast heat pulse and never get to hot to hold. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu >> > From: "Mike Fahrion" >> >> > To take it one step further, it isn't terribly difficult to add a >> > heater circuit that will turn on power to a several watt resistor >> > when the ambient is below a certain threshold temp. Almost always, >> >Sorry if I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This method is used >to extend the cold temp range of standard commercial parts (0 >degrees C - which can be a real problem). The original post refered >to problems getting industrial spec'ed parts for the application. >The heater circuit turns on power to a heating resistor (usually just >a few watts) below a threshold temp (say 0 degrees C). Obviously it >doesn't stay on indefinately - usually a bit of hysteresis is called >for - say shut off the power at 5 degrees C. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 20:13:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA24858; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:05:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24853; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:05:39 -0400 Received: from slip-49-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22192; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:05:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:05:28 -0500 Message-Id: <9609252005.AA22192@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >There are some resistors that increase resistance with temperature. I used >some for a student lab where they were controling the heat with a computer >and needed a lot of heat in a hurry but it needed to be fail safe. These >resistors will put out a fast heat pulse and never get to hot to hold. > >Gordon > >Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist >Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. >114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 >gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu Nichrome, tungsten, and most other resistance wires have pos. tempcos but I don't think they have a steep enough curve to be self-limiting in such an application as this. Light bulbs are tungsten and have several neat uses: constant current sources, current limiters, heaters, -- and ... light sources. If I were going to make a heater for an electronic hootis for my car, I'd want to be sure that it didn't drain my car's battery. If it didn't have to be on all the time, I'd make it come with the ignition switch -- but then it'd have to have a real fast rise, and that would mean it could also be destructive if it were not controlled. There are flat, flexible heaters encapsulated in silicone made especially to bond to PCB's and that's what I'd try to use, as that would heat only the control circuitry -- which would require less heat as less would be lost through the case to the outside. There are metal cased resistors (check Dale Electronics in an electronics catalog -- e.g. Newark) that bolt to metal. Could use one of those on an aluminum plate. Put either one in the collector of a common emitter transistor amp, put a thermistor mounted to the same plate in the base circuit and voila' a self-regulating heater. Could also just buy a small thermostat and use it. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Sep 25 23:09:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA25312; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:01:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA25307; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:00:54 -0400 Received: from agtv-pc20 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:46:08 +1200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960925224814.008d4800@mail.massey.ac.nz> X-Sender: 92131327@mail.massey.ac.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:48:14 +1200 To: DIY_EFI From: Jamie Cairns Subject: Newby help. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all, I am new to this mailing list, but would like to know of or hear from anyone using the Motorola HC11 for any data-gathering or full blown fuel injection applications. I am currently finishing a Computer Science degree, so I've only looked at the possibility of doing this thing and sketched out some avenues so far - to busy to get anywhere with it. I am intending to create a fuel injection system for use with the Datsun L series motor (4 cyl first, then 6). We have used the HC11 at varsity here, so I am reasonably familiar with it, and have invested the $NZ25 in an HC11F1. Now is the time to start PCB layout design. I do not think of myself as being proficient with hardware design - software is my forte, so I would be grateful for any advice anyone could give me on this subject, in particularly my hardware/usage requirements. Thanks, Jamie Cairns. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 02:40:52 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA25868; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:35:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA25863; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:35:27 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA20290; Thu, 26 Sep 96 09:35:22 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843760090 Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:48:10 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:48:10 Message-Id: <9608268437.AA843760090@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/25/96 4:45 AM Oh, and the way to keep from replacing the radiator because you forgot to add antifreeze is to use an air cooled engine;) (Im a 911 owner) Or move to a warmer country From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 06:33:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA26202; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:25:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26197; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:25:15 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.31) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:28:02 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Digital Software Design Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:26:49 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368428414-11209191@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Anyone up for opening a thread to deal with developing a simple software algorithm following good engineering practices - i.e. blatantly stealing anything that works? Have worked out some ideas, but would like to open a forum and reach a consensus. I'm sure many of us have fragments that we could put together and make a great program. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 06:38:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA26224; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:33:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26219; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:33:42 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx14-29.teleport.com (ip-pdx14-29.teleport.com [206.163.124.241]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAB28288 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609260633.XAB28288@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: chip operating temperatures` Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'm going to take BOTH sides on this one! Generally I don't see to much problems with pcb's, except in cars. One of my customers has an electronics co that has about 8000 ft of pcb's, and little problem with pcb's. On the other hand, I'm certain we could come up with a few rooms full of auto pcb's with cracked traces, specifically Mercedes temp control. I don't know what MBZ used for a substrate, but do know that the usual fix is to eyeball for and solder up cracks in trace.(Mine is mechanical, thank you) One thing I've never seen is the failure of the printed circuits on the what appears to be some type of mylar used in many dash assembly's. Anybody know what the material is? And the difference in expansion rate between it and copper? I'm guessing that either the expansion rate is similar or copper exapnds more than the film, or I'm full of it. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 08:57:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA26486; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:51:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sunsrv5.lrz-muenchen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26481; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:51:10 -0400 Received: from GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de by sunsrv5.lrz-muenchen.de; Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:31:12 +0200 Received: from BRAIN/SpoolDir by brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:31:11 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BRAIN (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:30:54 +0100 From: "Hans Hintermaier" Organization: LMU-GRH Dept. of Neurology To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:30:45 MET Subject: Flex PCB Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Talltom Wrote: > One thing I've never seen is the failure of the printed circuits on the >what appears to be some type of mylar used in many dash assembly's. >Anybody know what the material is? And the difference in expansion rate >between it and copper? I'm guessing that either the >expansion rate is similar or copper .... Hi Tom, I once worked as camera service technician at Olympus and Konica, they only use in their modern compact cameras flexible PCB's. The material was Polycarbonat, painted with an extremly durable, transparent gloss, maybe Polyurethan based, which stabilized the PCB a lot. Plastics expand generally much more than metals (I think) There were nearly no failures caused by cracked traces in those 4 years I was working there. Regards Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Munich / Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 08:57:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA26475; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:45:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26470; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:45:42 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx14-29.teleport.com (ip-pdx05-18.teleport.com [206.163.123.160]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10510 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609260845.BAA10510@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've noticed a little discrepency here in relation to combustion chambwer heat. It seems that some say it's necessary to go over rich to cool and prevent preignition/detonation. Others say that thermal barrier coatings are the neat trick, which would make the combustion chamber hotter, and to me more knock prone. I've heard it said that eng's with aluminum heads will make 30-40 hp less than same with cast iron heads.. Todd said he had to go rich on aircooled to keep from self destruction. My question is why, meltdown or preignition/detonation? If it's preignition/detoation wouldn't thermal barrier coatings make it worse?(barring carbon deposits) Hate to mention it, but yes I agree that the heat generated will be more effective in the cylinder, but art what cost in the way of ign timing penalties?? Really do hate to open the thermodynamics bag of worms again, but it seems everybody I know with air cooled says they're at a disadvantage, the aluminum guys say they're at a disadvantage, and the cast iron crowd seems to think the aluminum guys are ahead. Somebody's screwed! Question is who? (Either way I win, I have cast iron and aluminum heads, and air cooled is out of the question, unless you're talking Lister diesel) "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 12:22:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA27010; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:16:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferrari.fing.edu.uy by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA27005; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:16:06 -0400 Received: from bmw.fing.edu.uy by ferrari.fing.edu.uy with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0v6FLy-00000WC; Thu, 26 Sep 96 09:15 GMT-3:00 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 09:15 GMT-3:00 From: prebuf@fing.edu.uy (Pablo Rebufello - CECAL - ) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Digital Software Design Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi! Some weeks ago I sent a mail asking for information to develop a software to manipulate and visualize the data and the states of all these "sensors", but I didn't receive any message back. I got a degree in Computer Science and I'm trying to get the information I need just to develop a good soft. I agree with you, and you can count with me in the development, as well as in informatic things. Pablo Rebufello Uruguay e-mail: prebuf@fing.edu.uy From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 13:31:58 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA27238; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:23:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA27233; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:23:49 -0400 Received: from i1-35.islandnet.com [198.53.172.35] by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1) with smtp id m0v6GPd-000VsuC for ; Thu, 26 Sep 96 06:23 PDT Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 06:23 PDT X-Sender: iii@mail.islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > ...The 68332 chips bought in the >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). I'm sure >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting 50-100 >k miles in a real environment ? You may want to check the specs on the 68332. According to my book, the MC68332FC is rated for -40C to +85C. While a car left in the hot sun can do serious damage to poor Fido (rated at 0 to 40C) locked inside, it is unlikely to get up to +85C. However, less than -40C in North Overshoe, Saskatchewan is not unlikely. And when you go to start it up in the morning, the interior is probably colder than the engine compartment. Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, is rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Bob Furber -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 13:42:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA27268; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:37:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA27263; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:37:50 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.30) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:40:37 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:38:37 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368402459-12770237@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Any particular mechanically efficient engine combination has a sweet spot of advance, generally at the onset of detonation, where maximum power is made. If they are not close, such as the case with early FE heads, it means you have either room for more mechanical improvement (e.g. more compression) or your chamber has gotten crapped up - dome shape etc. Richening a mixture "cools" a mixture because more low evaporative temperature components vaporize prior to combustion, absorbing more latent heat from the air and cylinder, thus favorably changing the time/pressure/temperature detonation (ping/knock/big bang whatever) relationship. Air cooled engines run hotter cylinders and heads, thus because of temperature, not mechanical compression, run closer to detonation than an identical engine that is water cooled. Richening the mixture again cools the mixture, allowing more mechanical compression prior to detonation and thus more power out of the engine. Aluminum heads absorb more heat during compression, keeping the mixture cooler, allowing higher compression than iron heads. Both air cooled and aluminum heads have the disadvantage of after ignition of rejecting more heat to the cooling system and thus are somewhat less efficient than iron heads. Changing to aluminum heads from same design iron heads generally involve adding a few degrees lead to compensate for the additional cooling of the charge by increased cooling system loss's. Ceramic's work by vaporizing more fuel during compression, but more importantly retaining significantly more heat within the cylinder to make working pressure after combustion. Lower cooling system loss's directly translate to power at the flywheel. Ignition must be retarded several degrees to compensate for the higher initial charge temp, and faster flame spread because of reduced heat loss's. All of the above comparisons are based on the impossibility of mechanically identical engines except for the changes noted. Please note an earlier writer's statement that a highly turbo'd mega output engine made peak power at 18 degrees advance - about half of what aluminum headed street V-8's like. IMHO, the more mechanically efficient (chemical energy converted to mechanical energy) an engine is, the less total lead it will take to make maximum power. Just keep in mind that firing the mixture before top dead center, i.e. spark advance means initially building pressure OPPOSING the pistons upward movement to build maximum pressure about 15 degrees past top dead center. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Combustion chamber heat > Date: Thursday, September 26, 1996 1:45 AM > > > I've noticed a little discrepency here in relation to combustion chambwer > heat. > It seems that some say it's necessary to go over rich to cool and prevent > preignition/detonation. Others say that thermal barrier coatings are the > neat trick, From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 15:17:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27451; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:10:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27442; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:10:02 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24159 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:09:33 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBABCD.50470E60@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:08:18 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBABCD.50470E60@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: RE: Digital Software Design Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:51:26 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sounds like a very good Idea to me. I'll let you go first.. see if anybody follows Mark ---------- From: Robert Harris[SMTP:bob@bobthecomputerguy.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 1996 8:27 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Digital Software Design Anyone up for opening a thread to deal with developing a simple software algorithm following good engineering practices - i.e. blatantly stealing anything that works? Have worked out some ideas, but would like to open a forum and reach a consensus. I'm sure many of us have fragments that we could put together and make a great program. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 15:25:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27486; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:21:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferrari.fing.edu.uy by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27481; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:20:57 -0400 Received: from bmw.fing.edu.uy by ferrari.fing.edu.uy with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0v6ICs-00000WC; Thu, 26 Sep 96 12:18 GMT-3:00 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 12:18 GMT-3:00 From: prebuf@fing.edu.uy (Pablo Rebufello - CECAL - ) To: diy_efi Subject: INFO to develop a software Cc: saxon@zymurgy.org Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi! This is exactly the mail I send some weeks ago. Pablo ------------------- start --------------- Hi! I'm new in this list. I got a degree in Computer Science, and my brother works as a mechanic. I'm planning to develop a software to manage and visualize the data (I/O) to full control the EFI, and everything else that could be read from a computer. But I need information about de EFI, and any electronical sensor. I know it depens on the car, but at least I have to try with just one at the beginning. What I need is: - protocol of comunication from/to the devices. - how the data is transmitted from/to the device, as well as description of the data to send/receive from/to the device to be read/write from/to the computer. I know I'm asking for a lot of information, so anything will help. Source of information such as books, internet address, etc will help much. Thank you!! Pablo Rebufello prebuf@fing.edu.uy URUGUAY - South America ----------------------------------- end --------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 15:36:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27520; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:31:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from device.data.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27515; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:31:17 -0400 Subject: Wires and such To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:20:58 +0200 (sat) From: Kalle Pihlajasaari In-Reply-To: from "Intec Inoventures Inc." at Sep 26, 96 06:23:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 714 Message-ID: <9609261721.aa27145@device.data.co.za> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, > Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, is > rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher > temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Silicon Rubber and Teflon coated wires are also an alternative. Your local airfield may have a workshop you could call and ask where they buy their engine compartment wires. The aircraft stuff is overengineered on top of over specked. The wires also usually have a second insulation layer for mechaniocal protection. Cheers -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@data.co.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 15:38:32 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27530; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:35:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from keg.zymurgy.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27525; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:35:02 -0400 Received: from speed.demon.nl (speed.demon.nl [194.159.224.111]) by keg.zymurgy.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24225 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:35:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by speed.demon.nl with Microsoft Mail id <01BBABD0.C9A372A0@speed.demon.nl>; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:33:10 +-200 Message-ID: <01BBABD0.C9A372A0@speed.demon.nl> From: Mark Pitts To: "'DIY EFI'" Subject: RE: Chip operating temperatures Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:11:05 +-200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for the comment about oven wire, I was wonderin' what to do about = the temp sender wire that lies accross my cylinder head.. hadnt thought = of that! Mark (who is now happy ;-)) ---------- From: Intec Inoventures Inc.[SMTP:iii@islandnet.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 1996 3:23 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures > ...The 68332 chips bought in the = >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). = I'm sure=20 >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting = 50-100=20 >k miles in a real environment ? You may want to check the specs on the 68332. According to my book, the MC68332FC is rated for -40C to +85C. =20 While a car left in the hot sun can do serious damage to poor Fido = (rated at 0 to 40C) locked inside, it is unlikely to get up to +85C. However, = less than -40C in North Overshoe, Saskatchewan is not unlikely. And when you = go to start it up in the morning, the interior is probably colder than the engine compartment. Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, = is rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Bob Furber -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 16:27:37 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27618; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:19:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from SATURN.ATINC.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27613; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:19:11 -0400 Received: from cc.atinc.com by SATURN.ATINC.COM with SMTP; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:19:09 -0400 Received: from ccMail by cc.atinc.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.05) id AA843764947; Fri, 27 Sep 96 00:30:50 EST Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 00:30:50 EST From: "Al Grippo" Message-Id: <9608268437.AA843764947@cc.atinc.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>You may want to check the specs on the 68332. According to my book, the >>MC68332FC is rated for -40C to +85C. You're right about the 68332, as I found out just a few minutes before getting this post. However, the SRAM I was planning to buy (from DS) is only rated 0 to 70C unless the IND suffix is used, which gives -40C to 85C. Al Grippo From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 17:54:46 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA28311; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:48:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA28266; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:48:24 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17599 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:43:24 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA14143; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat In-Reply-To: <199609260845.BAA10510@desiree.teleport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, talltom wrote: > > I've noticed a little discrepency here in relation to combustion chambwer > heat. > It seems that some say it's necessary to go over rich to cool and prevent > preignition/detonation. Others say that thermal barrier coatings are the > neat trick, > which would make the combustion chamber hotter, and to me more knock prone. I have no hard facts to back me up, but I would agree that using a thermal barrier coating on the pistons/combustion chamber/valves would create a situation where detonation/knock would be more likely. Since less heat would be abosrbed by the engine, as the flame front progressed through the cylinder onthe power stroke, the remaining unburned fuel would be heated more rapidly. I think there would indeed be a penalty in that the spark would ahve to be retarded more, and the mixture enriched to prevent this. Another alternative of course, is water injection, which I am more and more convinced is a good thing for air cooled engines at least, which tend to run hotter. I think, though that you could get away with coating the exhaust and intake ports without any penalties. The idea behind using coatings in the first place was to reduce heat in the engine and thus extend its life. Likewise with the exhaust header. For the intake port, the charge would stay a little cooler before entering the chamber. For the exhaust port, the exhaust gases would stay hotter, leading to better scavanging at the expense of running the exhaust valve hotter. Everything's a tradeoff, it seems. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 20:25:16 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28709; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:08:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28704; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:07:56 -0400 Received: from slip-92-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23680; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:07:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:07:53 -0500 Message-Id: <9609262007.AA23680@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Wires and such Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hi, > >> Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, is >> rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher >> temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. > >Silicon Rubber and Teflon coated wires are also an alternative. > >Your local airfield may have a workshop you could call and ask where they >buy their engine compartment wires. The aircraft stuff is overengineered >on top of over specked. The wires also usually have a second insulation >layer for mechaniocal protection. Buy your wire from Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key, etc. I'd stay away from the wire from auto parts houses and Wal-Mart -- unless I needed it that instant. I'd also buy from any of the above before I'd buy from Rat-Shack. [ Rat-Shack's wire, like the rest of their stuff, is the cheapest construction possible: lo-temp insulation, large strands (makes it less flexible than wire with more but smaller strands), and is not plated (bare copper will oxidize, even up under the insulation).] The catalogs will list the temp rating of the insulation (generally, the higher the temp, the stiffer it is). Be sure the wire is plated and get the highest/smallest number of strands so it'll be flexible. ** Don't ** use solid wire !!! It'll break. Don't drape the wire across exhaust manifolds, exhaust crossovers, EGR, etc. Cover the ends with heat shrink or such to keep crud from wicking up under the insulation into the wire. Really ought to avoid crimp connectors. Should solder all connections. If you want to use the crimp connectors, buy a quality grade that will take solder. Then you can solder them if you want to (many crimp "fast-on" connectors won't take solder, if they look sorta chrome or shiny, they probably won't solder. If a magnet will attract them, they probably won't take solder. If they have a dull, solder-looking sheen to them, and/or are non-magnetic (i.e. made of copper) they'll probably solder. Note that the magnetic ones (i.e. steel) will eventually corrode and rust. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Sep 26 21:06:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28781; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:51:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nora.pcug.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28776; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:51:50 -0400 Received: from helen.pcug.co.uk by nora.pcug.co.uk id aa05138; 26 Sep 96 21:41 BST Received: from turbo by helen.pcug.co.uk id aa27743; 26 Sep 96 21:40 BST Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:44:25 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <175@turbo.win-uk.net> To: diy_efi, diy_efi Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:44:25 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > It does not usually get much over +40C here so the top end of the >temp range is not much of a concern. BUT, winter IS comming. It is already >going down to +3C at night, and -40C is not that unusual. > > Wayne ( I really need to find a more moderate climate ) Braun >Wayne Braun Product Support Services Develcon Electronics Although ambient might rarely reach 40 degC, I would imagine that the temperature inside your ECU box/enclosure is well over that. Just think of the power dissipation from four coil drivers at say 40% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (dwell = 4mS/Wasted-Spark) and say eight injector drivers at 75% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (Fuel p/w = 15mS/SEFI) Typically, a 4 cylinder ECU can be sucking up to 10 Amps when the engine's really revving, I don't have figures to hand for 8 cylinder systems and of course all these figures depend on coil/injector type and so on, but we're still talking about passing a lot of current through the system. 120 watts can have pretty serious heating effects on the box especially if it's mounted in an area of static airflow. I would suggest that you would be advised to only use Industrial or Automotive spec parts where available, especially if your car's intended for serious day-to-day use. Failing that, mounting the ECU in the A/C outlet trunking might prove advantageous ... :^) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 00:40:03 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA29055; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:26:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA29050; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:26:54 -0400 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA29570; Fri, 27 Sep 96 07:26:48 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA843838759 Fri, 27 Sep 96 08:39:19 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 08:39:19 Message-Id: <9608278438.AA843838759@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Just my few cents worth. Any of you lot out there ever heard about spaghetti strand (a common name). Comes in long tubes like heatshrink, except its woven fibreglass and it doesn't shrink. This is ideal for containing bunches of wire (or a single wire) in hot places (like engine bays). There is a very noticable temp difference between the inside and outside of the tube when this is used. Use it with standard automotive wire, you can basically run those wires across the extractors if you want to, and the wires will still survive. Just a thought, its a lot cheaper than buying oven wire, at least down under. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Chip operating temperatures Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/27/96 1:13 AM Thanks for the comment about oven wire, I was wonderin' what to do about = the temp sender wire that lies accross my cylinder head.. hadnt thought = of that! Mark (who is now happy ;-)) ---------- From: Intec Inoventures Inc.[SMTP:iii@islandnet.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 1996 3:23 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures > ...The 68332 chips bought in the = >group pcb buy were rated 0 deg C to 70 deg C (32 deg F to 158 deg F). = I'm sure=20 >these are ok for prototypes, but is anyone concerned about them lasting = 50-100=20 >k miles in a real environment ? You may want to check the specs on the 68332. According to my book, the MC68332FC is rated for -40C to +85C. =20 While a car left in the hot sun can do serious damage to poor Fido = (rated at 0 to 40C) locked inside, it is unlikely to get up to +85C. However, = less than -40C in North Overshoe, Saskatchewan is not unlikely. And when you = go to start it up in the morning, the interior is probably colder than the engine compartment. Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, = is rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Bob Furber -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 03:23:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA29325; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:10:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA29320; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:10:45 -0400 Received: from i2-137.islandnet.com [198.53.172.137] by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1) with smtp id m0v6TJY-000W0jC for ; Thu, 26 Sep 96 20:10 PDT Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 20:10 PDT X-Sender: iii@mail.islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: iii@islandnet.com (Intec Inoventures Inc.) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > You're right about the 68332, as I found out just a few minutes before >getting this post. However, the SRAM I was planning to buy (from DS) is only >rated 0 to 70C unless the IND suffix is used, which gives -40C to 85C. You might want to consider buying SMOS SRAM, available from Future and a number of other suppliers. The SRM20100LC70 (128K x 8) SRAMs that we use in their plain vanilla flavour are rated at -40C to +85C and they are competitively priced. There may be other similarly rated plain vanilla SRAMs. Bfn, Bob Furber -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 05:05:40 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA29494; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 04:55:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.pacific.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA29489; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:55:24 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ts3-182.pacific.net [199.4.80.182]) by pacific.pacific.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA23183 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:59:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:59:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199609270459.VAA23183@pacific.pacific.net> X-Sender: sbrady@pacific.pacific.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Shaun Brady Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:40 AM 9/26/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, talltom wrote: > >> >> I've noticed a little discrepency here in relation to combustion chambwer >> heat. >> It seems that some say it's necessary to go over rich to cool and prevent >> preignition/detonation. Others say that thermal barrier coatings are the >> neat trick, >> which would make the combustion chamber hotter, and to me more knock prone. > >I have no hard facts to back me up, but I would agree that using a >thermal barrier coating on the pistons/combustion chamber/valves would >create a situation where detonation/knock would be more likely. Since >less heat would be abosrbed by the engine, as the flame front progressed >through the cylinder onthe power stroke, the remaining unburned fuel >would be heated more rapidly. > Unforutunately, current practice in everything from Formula 1 to stationary diesels refutes this reasoning. My seat of the pants rationalization is that the coatings reduce the likelyhood of hotspots and thus reduce the likelyhood of detonation, or don't affect the ignition event at all and enhance the expansion. I use thermally reflective coatings in my motorcycle racing engine, but didn't have a good baseline prior to applying them and don't have hard numbers on the improvement. Vizard feels that they are worth a 5-10% power improvement. The coatings are relatively cheap(about $15 per surface) when compared to what must be spent for similar improvements. They are more of a messy pain in the ass & scheduling hassle than an expense really. I can't think of another modification (other than electronic engine management) that improves both power and economy in equal measure. I'm also from the school of thought that the amount of ignition advance required for max power is a direct reflection on the efficiency of the combustion chamber. 34-36 degrees is a pretty typical number for an amazingly wide range of applications. Max power at 32 degrees would indicate to me that trying to improve the combustion efficiency would be a waste of time. 40 degrees would suggest the chamber is pretty pathetic. Mismatches between dynamic compression ratios and fuel octane will skew this, of course. If the combustion chamber is working well, and the fuel is matched to the application, power will fall off several degrees before detonation. These numbers are based on working with naturally aspirated motors with power peaks from 5000 to 12000 rpm and specific outputs from 1-2.5 hp/cid. These are just my generalizations based on a narrow range of experiences from a huge range of possibilities, so don't take them too seriously. Be carefull, detonation will kill a motor far faster than anything you can do with the fuel curve. SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 06:57:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA29635; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:47:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gate.icl.fi by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA29629; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:47:42 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gate.icl.fi (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA18929 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:47:33 +0300 Received: from mamma.icl.fi(141.192.38.166) by gate.icl.fi via smap (V1.3) id sma018921; Fri Sep 27 09:47:14 1996 Received: from arnoid (141.192.38.80) by mamma.icl.fi id ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:48:26 +0300 Received: by arnoid with Microsoft Mail id <01BBAC58.EB3020C0@arnoid>; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:47:38 +0200 Message-ID: <01BBAC58.EB3020C0@arnoid> From: Krister Wikstrom To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: RE:Re: Chip operating temperatures Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:47:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Just think of the power dissipation from four coil drivers at say >40% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (dwell =3D 4mS/Wasted-Spark) and say eight >injector drivers at 75% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (Fuel p/w =3D 15mS/SEFI) >Typically, a 4 cylinder ECU can be sucking up to 10 Amps when the >engine's really revving, I don't have figures to hand for 8 cylinder >systems and of course all these figures depend on coil/injector type >and so on, but we're still talking about passing a lot of current >through the system. 120 watts can have pretty serious heating effects >on the box especially if it's mounted in an area of static airflow. =20 I think the 120W is not dissipated at the driver location, most goes to = the injectors. If the driver sinks 10A and drops maybe 0.6V, the "warming" power is 6W - right? Using some low = RDSon MOSFETs etc. may have even lower voltage drop and power = dissipation. I've been repairing some (low cost) car audio stuff, and there seems to = be a lot of 0-70 C components used. This is a matter of cost, and those seem to survive/work at least on cold. On = the other hand, they _did_ broke down... (usually by too low speaker impedance or shorts, cheap stuff seem to = have no good protection circuits). Krister Wikstrom kwi@mamma.icl.fi From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 08:00:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA29747; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:52:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA29741; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:51:44 -0400 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:51:32 +0200 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA13874; Fri, 27 Sep 96 09:47:56 +0200 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:47:58 +0200 To: DIY_EFI From: walter.kaufmann@sd.id.ethz.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Subject: AC Delco Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi! Someone on the list works by AC Delco. I have some question.... Please send me the mailaddress. Thanks Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 09:33:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA29880; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:25:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from corona.laa.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA29875; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 05:25:11 -0400 Received: from tcw.now.inia.net.au (g9.hunterlink.net.au [203.12.144.186]) by corona.laa.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18448 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:23:51 +1000 Message-ID: <324B8F63.3F19@now.inia.net.au> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:25:07 +1100 From: Tim Willis X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Bosch L-jetronic problems References: <01BBABD0.C9A372A0@speed.demon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all, I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature rises to a certain point. There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they connect), what is it and how does it operate. I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help. Regards Tim Willis Newcastle, Australia tcw@now.inia.net.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 12:39:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00084; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:24:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA00079; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:24:52 -0400 Received: from bmesun1.MCG.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 27 Sep 96 08:23:46 EDT Received: from [] ([158.93.51.164]) by bmesun1.MCG.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24705; Fri, 27 Sep 96 08:28:22 EDT Message-Id: <9609271228.AA24705@bmesun1.MCG.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David M Parrish" To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:25:08 +0000 Subject: Re: Wires and such Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) > Buy your wire from Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key, etc. I'd stay away from > the wire from auto parts houses and Wal-Mart -- unless I needed it It's always a good idea to buy quality wire. In aircraft, the norm now is teflon covered wire with fine strands plated with either tin or silver. Perfect for engine compartments, since teflon melts at such a high temperature and won't burn. > The catalogs will list the temp rating of the insulation (generally, > the higher the temp, the stiffer it is). Be sure the wire is plated > and get the highest/smallest number of strands so it'll be flexible. > ** Don't ** use solid wire !!! It'll break. Don't drape the wire > across exhaust manifolds, exhaust crossovers, EGR, etc. Cover the > ends with heat shrink or such to keep crud from wicking up under the > insulation into the wire. Good advice. > Really ought to avoid crimp connectors. Should solder all connections. Have to draw the line here. In aircraft, which usually have higher vibration levels than cars and electrical failures are _much_ more serious, crimped connections are the norm. The problem with soldered connections is the narrow trasition point from solder to free strands. At that point, the wire can't flex very well, so vibration tends to crack the strands. The point with crimp connectors is to use high quality connectors (like Amp) and a good crimping tool. --- David Parrish Don't ask how much it costs to wire an airplane... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 12:54:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00123; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:43:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA00117; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:43:31 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40380; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:43:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:43:29 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271243.AA40380@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Just my few cents worth. Any of you lot out there ever heard about > spaghetti strand (a common name). Comes in long tubes like > heatshrink, except its woven fibreglass and it doesn't shrink. This > is ideal for containing bunches of wire (or a single wire) in hot In the electronics industry that's called 'spaghetti' tubing. It was around long before the shrinkable variety and it comes in many varieties, including the fiberglass type you speak of. In the Newark catalog it's listed in the index under 'insulating tubing'. Also called sleeving. Note that the wires will still get hot, and the insulation may still melt, so if there's more than one wire in the tubing, they may melt together and short out. The teflon tubing is good to 260 C (500 F); the PVC to 105 C (220 F); the fiberglass doesn't have a rating (in the Newark cat). The split polyethylene tubing is rated to 80 C (175 F). There's lots of heat shrink out there, too. Some polyolefin (electron irradiated polyethylene, tougher, higher temp resistance) shrinkable is rated to 135 C (275 F); kynar to 175 C (350 F); the typical PVC is rated to 105 C (220 F). Might try making something to suspend wiring above or away from real hot stuff -- like maybe use spark plug wire standoff or such. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 12:54:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00115; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:42:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA00110; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:42:52 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19611 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:45:39 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA29585; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:42:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat In-Reply-To: <199609270459.VAA23183@pacific.pacific.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Shaun Brady wrote: > I use thermally reflective coatings in my motorcycle racing engine, but > didn't have a good baseline prior to applying them and don't have hard > numbers on the improvement. Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? Vizard feels that they are worth a 5-10% power > improvement. The coatings are relatively cheap(about $15 per surface) when > compared to what must be spent for similar improvements. Can you give more details of exactly what brand and type of coatings you used? Were they Jet Hot, or ceramic, or what? Thanks for your description of your actual experiences with coatings. I'm interested in applying them to my 914 someday, so I'm willing to learn of other's experiences. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 13:07:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00156; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:56:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA00150; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:55:51 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA04898 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:56:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199609271256.HAA04898@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:02:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The "Bosch Automotive Electrical Systems" handbook indicates that if you have a L-jetronic Cold-start valve it is limited by a "Thermo-time switch" which is an electrically heated bimetal switch controlled via the ignition and starting switch. "During an actual cold start, the heat generated by the built-in heating winding is mainly responsible for the 'on' period (switch-off, for instance, at -20 deg C after approx 7.5s)..." Sounds to me that if your problem is continuing past 10 seconds or so that the cold start circuit isn't the problem, but the warm-up phase is. Information for this 1-2 minutes of enrichment comes from the temperature sensor. This is all from the handbook - not first hand experience. Good Luck -mike > Hi all, > > I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the > Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an > engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it > is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while > the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature > rises to a certain point. > > There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 > inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they > connect), what is it and how does it operate. > > I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. > > I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly > it would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks for any help. > > > Regards > > > Tim Willis > Newcastle, Australia > tcw@now.inia.net.au > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Fahrion mfahrion@bb-elec.com http://www.bb-elec.com/ B&B Electronics Mfg Co ph.(815) 433-5100 ext.215 fax (815) 434-7094 707 Dayton Road PO Box 1040 Ottawa IL 61350 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 14:02:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA00513; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:50:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA00508; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:50:46 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23725; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:50:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:50:28 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271350.AA23725@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: nail@swings.com From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE: 351W CARBED ENGINE PRO Cc: diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com, eec-iv Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi EGO ==>> exhaust gas oxygen sensor. Unless your car is over, say, 20 years old, it's probably got one. If you're still using your computer (engine controller), the EGO's being used by that, so it may be difficult to use as an indicator. But if you're carburetted ... I don't think your controller is doing anything (if it's still controlling your timing, you may have other problems). Otherwise, the EGO will be in your exhaust pipe somewhere pretty close to the exhaust manifold. If it has more that two wires, it has an internal heater to bring it up to temperature (only works when real hot!). You can read about the EGO in any book on emissions stuff. Stoichiometric means all of whatever is put into a chemical reaction us used up -- no left overs. So, for gasoline, a ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel is the exact ratio where there is the least unburnt fuel -- least noxious byproducts. It is also where newer 3-stage cats work -- they don't work at all off stoich. But, power is made with more fuel than stoich (i.e. A/F > 14.7:1); and economy is made with less fuel (A/F > 14.7:1). The EGO's output is a voltage function inversely related to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust compared to the amount of oxygen in the outside air around it. If you're running leaner (more O2) the voltage is lower. Richer = higher output voltage. Stoich (14.7:1 A:F ratio) is about .45 - .5 volts. The output is not linear and steeply changes after leaving stoich, but people use it all the time to help tune their machines. It's output is "high impedance". That means it produces very little current and any resistive loading will cause it to produce lower voltages, resulting in erroneous readings. So, to use it, you must have a meter with an input impedance greater than 1 megohm. Every digital meter I know of has in input Z (Z is electronics term for impedance) of 10 megohms (some are 11). Analog meters, unless they have internal amplifiers, are rated in "ohms per volt". A Simpson 260 is rated at 20,000 ohms/volt. To find out it's input Z, multiply the switch (attenuator) position by the ohms/volts. So, on the 10 volt scale, a 20,000 ohm/volt meter would have in input Z of 20,000 * 10 = 200 thousand ohms. That means an analog meter won't do. Steve wrote: >Tell me more about the projection, if you don't mind.. What do you want to know? > > I have a DPM (digital panel meter) measuring the output of my EGO. > > You can get one from Hosfelt Electronics: [800-524-6464 (FAX > > 800-524-5414) > > $14.95, their part number 39-165] or use any digital voltmeter or > > analog meter with an input impedance of 10 megohms or so. I > > connected > >Where is the EGO? built into the car? > >The DPM is $14.95, and it connects to your EGO? > > > This's probably not it, but the EGO helps set the system up. Look > > for about .5 volts for cruise (that's stoichiometric: 14.7:1 A:F > > ratio). Up to about .8 or 1 volt for power and maybe down to > > about .2 or so for deceleration. [snip] From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 14:16:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00543; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:04:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00538; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:04:20 -0400 Received: from pmf11.rt66.com (pmf17.rt66.com [206.206.85.37]) by Rt66.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA29059 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <324BEC06.272A@rt66.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:00:22 -0700 From: "Michael D. Porter" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems References: <01BBABD0.C9A372A0@speed.demon.nl> <324B8F63.3F19@now.inia.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tim Willis wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the > Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an > engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it > is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while > the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature > rises to a certain point. On the Japanese L-Jetronics, and I'd presume Bosch to be similar, the cold start injector only opens when the block temp sensor is below something like 65 deg. F, and the starter is engaged. And, further, there's a bimetallic switch in series between the starter switch power and the cold-start input line, so that if the engine doesn't fire after several seconds of cranking, that input line shuts off, to prevent flooding. The only time the cold-start injector should give any problem after the engine's started is if it's leaking. When I worked for Toyota, we saw intermittent missing after a couple of years of running which had nothing to do with the injection system--all related back to how fuel was injected--created some carbon deposits on the valves and seats. Clean the valves and it was okay. On this, might want to check the temp sensor in the block and see what its resistance is (should be high--25-30K ohms, I think), and check the cold-start for proper flow and resistance to leakage when the fuel system is pressurized. > There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 > inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they > connect), what is it and how does it operate. That would probably be the idle air-bypass. Little stepper motor turns a sliding plate in the orifice to control bypass air, and therefore control idle speed. -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 14:49:19 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00589; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:32:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00584; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:32:38 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05881; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:32:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:32:30 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271432.AA05881@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: RE:Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi somebody wrote: >>Just think of the power dissipation from four coil drivers at say >>40% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (dwell = 4mS/Wasted-Spark) and say eight >>injector drivers at 75% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (Fuel p/w = 15mS/SEFI) >>Typically, a 4 cylinder ECU can be sucking up to 10 Amps when the >>engine's really revving, I don't have figures to hand for 8 cylinder >>systems and of course all these figures depend on coil/injector type >>and so on, but we're still talking about passing a lot of current >>through the system. 120 watts can have pretty serious heating effects >>on the box especially if it's mounted in an area of static airflow. Krister Wikstrom replied: >I think the 120W is not dissipated at the driver location, most goes to the injectors. If the driver sinks 10A >and drops maybe 0.6V, the "warming" power is 6W - right? Using some low RDSon MOSFETs etc. may have even lower voltage drop and power dissipation. > An' then I says: I've not been reading this thread real thoroughly so I missed the original post. A switch dissipates *NO* power, but a transistor is not a perfect switch. An injector may take an ampere pulse, but I think their holding current is less (don't know about this). Like Kris said, assuming 1 amp: any good switching power transistor will have a VCE(sat) (that's the voltage across it when it's ON) of less than 1 volt, maybe .3 to .6 volts. Switching FET might be less. Anyway: the power dissipated at 1 amp would be 1 amp times .6 volts or 600 milliwatts. If one driver is pulsing several injectors, the power would be proportionally higher. The *good* thing about this is that those transistors can be bolted to the case and the heat will mostly go outside. It's the VLSI and TTL chips that get hot and have no direct path to the outside for that heat. They probably do more to raise the internal temp than anything else. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 14:54:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00607; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:45:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00602; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:45:11 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16970; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:45:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:45:00 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271445.AA16970@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: AC Delco Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hi! > >Someone on the list works by AC Delco. I have some question.... Please send >me the mailaddress. > >Thanks >Walter Walter, I have some addresses -- but your e:mail addr doesn't work for me?? Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 15:40:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00797; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:32:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00792; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:32:36 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA03870 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:32:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199609271532.KAA03870@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:39:17 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA -mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 16:46:18 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00883; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:43:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00877; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:43:45 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31192; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:42:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:42:31 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271642.AA31192@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Dan Stokes From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming Cc: diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com, eec-iv , Cliff Koch , Donald Whisnant , Sven Pruett , James Pearl , Jonathan Lloyd , George Najarian , James Weiler , Bradford Peterson , Todd King , Steve Sadler , "Dr. Shidel; BA, BS, MS, PhD" , Pat , Josh , Gary Graham , Craig Eid , Todd Knighton , Steve Sadler , Terry Fair , Dave Compton , Jody Shapiro , Alex Cazin , Joe Aubertin Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dan, I decided to send this to ebberbuddy. I think it's interesting: (my erudite thoughts are sprinkled here and there). >On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: > > ............................ >> >> > Q: are you wanting to know the 8061 opcodes because you would like to >> > change the way the eec handles the information it receives? .. >> > ... or do you just want the eec to 'respond' differently to a set of >> > inputs? >> > >> > if you answer is 'yes' to the second maybe i can provide a shred of >> > information. >> > >> >> Probably the first -- but you do the best you can. I think all of us >> would like to know enough to completely modify the unit. I think >> everything is there: sensors and outputs, just needs a little TLC >> from the owner to get what he wants. Then we will get into how >> to measure and interpret the changes ?? >> >> But, it's probably enough (for a while) to be able to change some >> of the tables. For one thing, if one could do this, he could >> use used EEC's from the junk yard on any motor. > >if this is your goal you could probably get by with two things > >1) right spark at the right time >2) proper pulsewidth from the injectors > >it happens that the eec gets 1 and only 1 timing signal from the tfi >unit. it is called the pip (Profile Ignition Pickup ??). on a 4 cyl the >output of the pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, on a 6 cyl the output of the >pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, and finally on an 8cyl the output (and >you guessed it) is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000RPM (oh: the duty cycle on all of these >should be 50%) these numbers are true for all ford engines except the >SEFI 8cyl (the SEFI 6 cylinders are the same. the 8 cyl must need >tighter timing indexes) > >it also happens that the return (from the eec) to the tfi module (the >SPOUT or SPark OUT) that sets the timing from the computer (this is the >wire you pull before you set your base timing) has the exact same >specifications as the pip. >what i gleened from this is that the pip does 2 things: >1) it lets the eec know how fast the engine is turning (frequency alone) >2) it gives a base signal to be sent back to the tfi after being delayed > a bit. this delay or phase change (realitive to the pip) is what lets > the eec control timing, but indirectly, the tfi is doing _most_ of the > work. > >mike wesley has said .. > "you'll see that ford does not use the CPU as it was designed (to be > used?) . . . they waste so much CPU it's pitiful" > >i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a >bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) >the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" >for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is >done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real >programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. > >moral is: if you want to make your own controller (and i'm interested) >all you have to do is figure out the "TFI secret" and half your job is >done. the injector pulsing is a piece of cake compared to trying to fire >a spark at the proper time ... every time. > > oops. back to your statement: > >i think you CAN use any eec with any other engine (all the fuel injectors >are in banks of two ... choose the proper size and fuel pressure ... pick >the proper TFI ( is there a difference??) and adjust for wiring >differences.. <;-) > >i'm planning to 'try' this my self. i have a 2.3L merkur and am >planning to swap a 2.9 liter ... and add a turbo. the problem i faced >was that the 2.3 had a neat little "boost solenide??" that the eec would >deactivate when detonation was encountered. a very useful output, but >nothing of the same on any other eec controller .. not to mention the 2.9 >doesn't even have a knock sensor. solution: use the 2.3 computer ... i >was stunned when all the "problems" i had imagined weren't actually >there. the only drawback now is that the 2.3 controller has "peak and >hold" injectors in banks of 2. If i was to hook up the injectors (lets >say peak and hold) in banks of 3 instead of 2, would the eec still >provide the proper current to each injector, or just provide the same old >current . . . I don't know) > > >......................................... > > > >> >> How does Mike Wesley's "calibrator" work? It supposedly plugs into >> a "calibration" port on the side of the EEC which allows switching >> out the program memory and using external memory (I may be wrong >> on this??). >> >it sounds like a "super chip" fpga mapping to an eeprom that you can >program by hooking up you computer com port. i'm sure it doesn't >reprogram the 8061, but i don't know :) > >later - > >> >-dan "i want control" stokes What's a TFI ?? I assume it's "tuned fuel injection" not "taco f**t implosion"? I'd like to know if Mikes's doo-dad will work with SEFI. If he's done what he seems to have done, all I gotta do is fiddle with his deal. I think there's a market (albeit small) of us wackos that are technical enough to really be able to play with the controller at the software level -- given immortality and fort knox. So, if Mike or someone could make a box and "open architecture" a'la the IBM-PC, there would surely grow a humonguous cult following. I think Ford otta look at the IBM / MAC debacle and consider making their systems easier to hack. I'd like to put SEFI in, not 'cause it's good for power, but because it's there! Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 16:46:20 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00872; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:40:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00867; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:39:51 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31161; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:39:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:39:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9609271639.AA31161@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Wires and such Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >> Really ought to avoid crimp connectors. Should solder all connections. > >Have to draw the line here. In aircraft, which usually have higher >vibration levels than cars and electrical failures are _much_ >more serious, crimped connections are the norm. The problem with >soldered connections is the narrow trasition point from solder to >free strands. At that point, the wire can't flex very well, so >vibration tends to crack the strands. The point with crimp connectors >is to use high quality connectors (like Amp) and a good crimping >tool. > >--- >David Parrish >Don't ask how much it >costs to wire an airplane... Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one (Forget who really makes it). From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 16:47:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00893; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:46:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from galaxy.galstar.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00888; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:46:03 -0400 Received: (rmadursk@localhost) by galaxy.galstar.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA02080 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:45:58 -0500 From: Ron Madurski Message-Id: <199609271645.LAA02080@galaxy.galstar.com> Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:45:58 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <324B8F63.3F19@now.inia.net.au> from "Tim Willis" at Sep 27, 96 07:25:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1652 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi : : :Hi all, : :I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the :Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an :engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it :is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while :the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature :rises to a certain point. I think that once the car starts it is off. : :There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 :inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they :connect), what is it and how does it operate. I think it controls the amount of air allowed when the throttle plate is closed. Check to make sure that your injectors are all firing. I had this problem on my old Volvo 240 (LH-Jetronic). When it was cold the injectors fired very erratically and it ran like crap until it warmed up. It took a new brain to make it work properly. Apparently 2 of the connectors which look identical and connect identically had been swapped which is an instant brain fry. So if the brain is dead make SURE that the wires are in the right locations. : :I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. I'm not so you get what you pay for... : :I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly :it would be greatly appreciated. You can get those brains used from several places, don't buy a new one. : :Thanks for any help. : : :Regards : : :Tim Willis :Newcastle, Australia :tcw@now.inia.net.au : : -- Ron Madurski rmadursk@galaxy.galstar.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 16:58:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00931; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:55:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00926; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:55:29 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08666 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:55:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199609271655.LAA08666@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:02:09 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA -mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 16:58:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00936; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:55:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA00924; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:55:28 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08662 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:55:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199609271655.LAA08662@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:02:09 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA -mike From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 17:18:47 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA00981; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:14:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spartan.ac.BrockU.CA by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00976; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:14:04 -0400 Received: from badger.ac.BrockU.CA by spartan.ac.BrockU.CA via ESMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id NAA12408; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:13:34 -0400 Received: by badger.ac.BrockU.CA (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id NAA24979; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:09:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Aubertin To: tom cloud cc: Dan Stokes , diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com, eec-iv , Cliff Koch , Donald Whisnant , Sven Pruett , James Pearl , Jonathan Lloyd , George Najarian , James Weiler , Bradford Peterson , Todd King , Steve Sadler , "Dr. Shidel; BA, BS, MS, PhD" , Pat , Josh , Gary Graham , Craig Eid , Todd Knighton , Steve Sadler , Terry Fair , Dave Compton , Jody Shapiro , Alex Cazin Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming In-Reply-To: <9609271642.AA31192@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: > Dan, I decided to send this to ebberbuddy. I think it's interesting: > (my erudite thoughts are sprinkled here and there). > > What's a TFI ?? I assume it's "tuned fuel injection" not "taco f**t > implosion"? Thick Film Ignition module. Also i find this thread VERY interesting as i want MORE CONTROL also. Keep the info flowing :) Joe AUbertin '88 MGT > > I'd like to know if Mikes's doo-dad will work with SEFI. If he's done > what he seems to have done, all I gotta do is fiddle with his deal. > I think there's a market (albeit small) of us wackos that are technical > enough to really be able to play with the controller at the software > level -- given immortality and fort knox. So, if Mike or someone could > make a box and "open architecture" a'la the IBM-PC, there would surely > grow a humonguous cult following. I think Ford otta look at the IBM / > MAC debacle and consider making their systems easier to hack. > > I'd like to put SEFI in, not 'cause it's good for power, but because > it's there! > > Tom > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 19:28:50 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01217; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:16:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01212; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:16:22 -0400 Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (egate.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.138]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06529 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:16:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from westhub.mnet.uswest.com (westhub.mnet.uswest.com [148.156.21.6]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA22455 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:16:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cp.uswc.uswest.com (cp [151.116.143.213]) by westhub.mnet.uswest.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA26198 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:18:30 -0700 Received: from sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com by cp.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20014; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:14:46 -0600 Received: by sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/uswc-solaris-client.950829) id AA02591; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:14:26 -0600 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:14:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ciciora To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wires and such In-Reply-To: <9609271639.AA31161@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and > want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's > not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that > works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one > (Forget who really makes it). > I once had to buy a mil-spec crimper to crimp a PTO6A-14-12C bendix connector to get power from a ER-2 (U-2) spy plane... I believe the crimper ran about $300! There is a difference in aircraft crimp connectors and automotive crimp connectors... - Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 19:40:25 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01248; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:31:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01243; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:31:24 -0400 Received: from mfahrion.rs232.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA17165 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:31:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199609271931.OAA17165@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:38:10 +0000 Subject: General EFI information Q Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can anyone recommend a good source of basic information on EFI systems in US cars? I just finished reading the Bosch Automotive Electric/Electronics Systems handbook and would love to find a similar source of info on GM and Ford systems. Just a wee bit smarter than yesterday.... -mike mfahrion@bb-elec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 20:17:38 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01367; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:06:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01362; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:06:16 -0400 Received: from slip-81-7.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31066; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:06:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:06:09 -0500 Message-Id: <9609272006.AA31066@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming *** [THE LIST] *** Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Man, did I stir sumpin up or what? Lots of people seem to be interested. Here is my current list of who I've found that are specifically interested in EEC-IV (or has offered an opinion). None of these has said they want out. I don't know which of these is getting duplicate postings because they are on diy_efi or FordNatics -- or both. I would like to think that all of you would subscribe to diy_efi?? I don't want to start a new list -- don't know how, don't wanna know how. I just wanna be able to fiddle with my Fords !! (Just like the rest of you.) I teach a class where students have to build a project (including a simple PCB). I can always tell who has experience -- the guy that wants to lay out a PCB or design a circuit doesn't have any. If he did, he'd know how time intensive it is and that a 3-1/2 month semester is too short (some folks do pull it off, though -- takes real intestinal fortitude). Well, I'd like to know all about the EEC. I know that if I had all the tools: code, assembler, C++ compiler, debugger, logic analyzer, 'scope, EPROM burner, computer, tools, and money (and I have all of those -- except for the code, assembler, debugger and money), I still wouldn't have the time. Seems like Mike's doo-dad is the best deal for the money -- if we could only get one. Isn't a real problem for me, though, since I'm not really quite ready for it just yet anyway. Josh Alex Cazin Derek Deeter Tom Cloud Dave Compton Jim Dibble Pat Craig Eid Terry Fair Gary Graham Todd King Todd Knighton Cliff Koch Jonathan Lloyd George Najarian Bob Nell James Pearl Bradford Peterson Sven Pruett Eric Riggert Steve Sadler Jody Shapiro "Dr. Shidel; BA, BS, MS, PhD" Dan Stokes James Weiler Donald Whisnant Travis Willis Thanks, Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Sep 27 23:26:49 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01613; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:18:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01608; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:18:05 -0400 Received: from allnight (cis1-p7.everett.net [205.134.193.103]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00161 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:15:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199609272315.QAA00161@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: Subject: Re: Wires and such Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:50 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi AMP makes a pretty good one for about 80 bucks. It comes with one set of dies for your regular "car type" crimp connectors and many other die sets are available, like for BNC's etc. It pays to use "real" connectors too. The AMP connectors give good results, and they make just about any connector you can think of. Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. Once you have used a real crimper on real connectors... well, the next time you are at Al's and you see that glorious $6.95 connector kit with the crimper and the the connectors you will enjoy snickering as you pass by. If you want a real good laugh, just ask the doofass behind the counter "hey, where do you keep the real crimpers". -j- ---------- > From: Steve Ciciora > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Wires and such > Date: Friday, September 27, 1996 12:14 PM > > > > > Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and > > want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's > > not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that > > works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one > > (Forget who really makes it). > > > > I once had to buy a mil-spec crimper to crimp a PTO6A-14-12C bendix > connector to get power from a ER-2 (U-2) spy plane... I believe > the crimper ran about $300! There is a difference in aircraft > crimp connectors and automotive crimp connectors... > - Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 28 02:14:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA01845; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:10:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01840; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:10:52 -0400 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 28 Sep 1996 02:10:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 28 Sep 1996 02:10:51 -0000 Received: from slip-41-15.ots.utexas.edu (slip-41-15.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.127]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA06633 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:10:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:10:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199609280210.VAA06633@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: smtjr@mail.utexas.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: smtjr@mail.utexas.edu (steve m trindade) Subject: Re: Checking fuel pressure? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi mike, i am not sure if it would work or not, but I wouldn't recommend it. they do make special high pressure gauges specifically for measuring fuel pressure. in my experience i have never seen a test port that was a schrader valve anyway. there is another benefit to using the right test gauge. they screw on and seal and usually come with a fairly long hose. with this you can usually go for a drive with the gauge peeking from under the cowl of the hood so you can read while you drive. that's where you get your good information from. Steve Trindade (smtjr@mail.utexas.edu) P1 Engineering Austin, Tx. USA From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 28 03:05:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA01921; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 03:02:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.pacific.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01916; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:02:41 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (ts-30.pacific.net [199.4.80.30]) by pacific.pacific.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA02632 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:06:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:06:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199609280306.UAA02632@pacific.pacific.net> X-Sender: sbrady@pacific.pacific.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Shaun Brady Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems >with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? The motor is a Honda Hawk. 647 cc, Liquid cooled, aluminum, V-Twin, 3 Valves per cylinder. I assembled the engine at a local shop that sponsers me, and while it sat on the bench an old car oval track racer came in and shared his experiences with coatings. They were much more expensive in his day, and not widely known. They coated an aluminum headed small block chevy's pistons and combustion chambers. Initially they didn't see much of an improvement on the dyno, but they couldn't get the oil or water temperature into the normal range either. After they had revised the cooling systems and carb jetting, they saw a 35 hp improvement on a 500 hp motor. It startled me how close this comes to Vizards publications. This was a fully developed motor configuration they had been using for years. The Hawk motor was good for 71 Hp from 40 cubes. Stock was 42 Hp. The motor had 11.5:1 compression, a fairly radical cam, cleaned up ports, stock valves, low restriction exhaust and intake systems. The motor output is limited by the valve sizes, a really poor combustion chamber design, and an exhaust port with limitations similar to a Cleveland ford. I selected a piston manufactured from a material that allowed tighter piston-bore clearances, coated it, and assembled the motor with clearances on the tight side of recommended. >Can you give more details of exactly what brand and type of coatings you >used? Were they Jet Hot, or ceramic, or what? I used the Polydyn Coatings (713-694-3296), as mentioned in Vizards book. It was a very thin baked on coating, probably ceramic, probably serving a reflective rather than insulating function. Summit (330-630-3030) sells 3 oz bottles for less than $30. There are separate coatings for Aluminum and Iron. They are sprayed on and then baked at either 350 F (Al) or 450 F (Fe). Polydyn Coats Piston tops for $14, combustion chambers $28, valves $5 ea. They will also do the backside of valves and exhaust ports. I've seen Harley pistons for sale precoated with the other coating system Vizard mentions (Swain Technologies). Friction reducing coatings are also popular among motorcycle racers, but I've heard their useful life on piston skirts is fairly short. I spent more on the UPS than I did the coatings, and that was for little motorcycle parts. I'd like to do a 460 ford boat motor I'm building, but can't imagine the shipping costs this would involve, and will probably give the Summit coatings a try. I would think that everything you can do to keep the heat out of an air cooled motor would be a good thing. Vizard suggests that the secondary modifications allowed by coatings would improve power further yet. Things like narrower valve seats. Tighter piston clearances are another posibility. Do car guys use Nikasil bores yet? I see reference after reference to proffesional engine builders using these coatings, it is more than a fad. If you can find someone who specializes in your engine, and will sell you a set of coated pistons, assemble them to the clearances they've developed. Otherwise, your left with starting with the tight side of recommended. Good Luck SBrady From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 28 13:14:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02533; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:03:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02528; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:03:53 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.31) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:06:41 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:05:23 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BBAD03.09508680" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368231695-4701307@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BBAD03.09508680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Attached is a site on the west coast that does extensive ceramic coating - check it out. ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- > From: Shaun Brady > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > Date: Friday, September 27, 1996 8:06 PM > > > >Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems > >with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? > ------=_NextPart_000_01BBAD03.09508680 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="High Performance Coatings.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: High Performance Coatings (Internet Shortcut) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="High Performance Coatings.url" W0ludGVybmV0U2hvcnRjdXRdDQpVUkw9aHR0cDovL3d3dy53Y28uY29tL35zYzc1MDAvbGVhZDIu aHRtbABsAKDRQwDZ/9n/1//X/9b/1v/l/+X/4f/h/67/rv91/3X/ ------=_NextPart_000_01BBAD03.09508680-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Sep 28 13:40:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02597; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:33:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from irene.pcug.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02588; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:33:33 -0400 Received: from Helen.PCUG.CO.UK by irene.pcug.co.uk id ae23029; 28 Sep 96 14:33 BST Received: from turbo by helen.pcug.co.uk id aa20751; 28 Sep 96 14:33 BST Received: by win-uk.net!turbo; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:27:53 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.60 Message-ID: <176@turbo.win-uk.net> To: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu, Dan Stokes CC: bp3084m@tmp.medtronic.co, john@anergy.demon.co.uk, najay@deltanet.com, james@brc.ubc.ca, dewhisna@ix.netcom.com, vanir@gnn.com, jvp@qsi.com, dibble@peaches.ph.utexas.edu, koch@cae.cig.mot.com, diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:27:53 Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Note: These are my own opinions based on my experience with Ford, and elsewhere. Just because they may differ from someone elses doesn't necessarily make either of us right ..... or wrong. >>> > Q: are you wanting to know the 8061 opcodes because >>> > you would like to >>> > change the way the eec handles the information it receives? .. >>> > ... or do you just want the eec to 'respond' differently to a set of >>> > inputs? >>> > The only reason to know the 8061/8065 opcodes is if you intend to re-program the way the EEC works, if you just want to change the way it responds for a given set of input data, you only need to change the calibration, i.e. the data in the maps etc. >>it happens that the eec gets 1 and only 1 timing signal from the tfi >>unit. it is called the pip (Profile Ignition Pickup ??). on a 4 cyl the >>output of the pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, on a 6 cyl the output of the >>pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, and finally on an 8cyl the output (and >>you guessed it) is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000RPM (oh: the duty cycle on all of these >>should be 50%) these numbers are true for all ford engines except the >>SEFI 8cyl (the SEFI 6 cylinders are the same. the 8 cyl must need >>tighter timing indexes) I missed the start of this discussion so I'm purely speculating on the original question/inquiry but here goes anyway. The EEC's only see one Crankshaft Position Sensor signal, but where it comes from depends on the age of the EEC. Early EEC's used a sectored wheel in the distributor which produced a square wave of frequency of Number-Cylinders per 2-revs with a nominal 50% dutycycle unless SEFI was used wherupon there was a "short" tooth. The spark was output by a TFI unit. The later (and to the best of my knowledge) all current EEC's including the EEC-v utilise a 36-1 tooth wheel for CPS which is pre-processed by a unit known as the EDIS (Electronic DIStributor). The EDIS converts the 36-1 into a 2 pulses/rev 50% dutycycle square wave which is then fed into the EEC to be used for RPM and injector timing calculations. The EEC sends a PWM signal to the EDIS defining the spark advance required, and the EDIS unit then times out the signals to the coils (wasted spark). This gives a more accurate spark delivery as the EDIS has access to timing data which is updated every 10 crank degrees whereas the EEC only gets timing data every 90 degrees. >>what i gleened from this is that the pip does 2 things: >>1) it lets the eec know how fast the engine is turning (frequency alone) >>2) it gives a base signal to be sent back to the tfi after being delayed >> a bit. this delay or phase change (realitive to the pip) is what lets >> the eec control timing, but indirectly, the tfi is doing _most_ of the >> work. >> The return signal from the EEC to the EDIS is unrelated to the PIP. It purely indicates to the EDIS unit the amount of spark advance required. >>mike wesley has said .. >> "you'll see that ford does not use the CPU as it was designed (to be >> used?) . . . they waste so much CPU it's pitiful" >> Having spent from 1986 to 1994 full-time consulting to Ford (both in Europe for FOB and in the U.S. for NAAO) on EEC-iv/EEC-v design and programming, I'd be genuinely interested to hear the basis for those comments. >>i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a >>bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) >>the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" >>for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is >>done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real >>programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. I'll deliberately pass on the "real-programmer" comment, suffice to say that I'd love to see the algorythm that could calculate required/optimium Spark Advance under all conditions to enable the engine to meet its operating criteria of power, driveability and most importantly emissions given the input data available to an EEC, i.e. CPS timing data, engine temperature, air-charge temperature, throttle position, EGO data and Cylinder-ID to name the significant ones. It's (relatively) easy to determine/calculate the spark required for optimium power, but the compromises made to meet emissions and driveability makes it a whole new ball game. >>moral is: if you want to make your own controller (and i'm interested) >>all you have to do is figure out the "TFI secret" and half your job is >>done. the injector pulsing is a piece of cake compared to trying to fire >>a spark at the proper time ... every time. >> No secret to the EDIS, it knows the required spark advance from the EEC and has accurate and regularly updated timing data for current crankshaft position, what else do you need to deliver an accurate spark ? >>i think you CAN use any eec with any other engine (all the fuel injectors >>are in banks of two ... choose the proper size and fuel pressure ... pick >>the proper TFI ( is there a difference??) and adjust for wiring >>differences.. <;-) I think you'll find the "TFI" (EDIS) units are all very similar, the differences are in the EEC. You can't just switch EEC's for different EEC's, they are generally electrically similar (not identical) but totally different in terms of code and calibration content. >From my understanding of Mikes box, you can map out the internal PROM and use external memory which would let you run any program/calibration you wanted (and had copies of) in an EEC. I'd guess you'd need a permanent piggy-back type board with an EPROM and address decoder PAL on it (a la Super-Chips) to make permanent changes tho'....... I for one would be interested to hear more about these boxes, especially if they're to become commercially available. I could find a good use for one ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@turbo.win-uk.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 29 05:09:21 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA03572; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 04:59:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA03567; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:59:33 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx17-17.teleport.com (ip-pdx11-01.teleport.com [206.163.124.108]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28435 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609290459.VAA28435@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #290 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:06:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming *** [THE LIST] *** > >Man, did I stir sumpin up or what? Lots of people seem to be interested. > >Here is my current list of who I've found that are specifically interested >in EEC-IV (or has offered an opinion). None of these has said they want out. >I don't know which of these is getting duplicate postings because they are >on diy_efi or FordNatics -- or both. > >I would like to think that all of you would subscribe to diy_efi?? I >don't want to start a new list -- don't know how, don't wanna know how. >I just wanna be able to fiddle with my Fords !! (Just like the rest of >you.) > >I teach a class where students have to build a project (including >a simple PCB). I can always tell who has experience -- the guy that >wants to lay out a PCB or design a circuit doesn't have any. If he did, >he'd know how time intensive it is and that a 3-1/2 month semester >is too short (some folks do pull it off, though -- takes real intestinal >fortitude). Well, I'd like to know all about the EEC. I know that if >I had all the tools: code, assembler, C++ compiler, debugger, logic >analyzer, 'scope, EPROM burner, computer, tools, and money (and I have >all of those -- except for the code, assembler, debugger and money), >I still wouldn't have the time. Seems like Mike's doo-dad is the best >deal for the money -- if we could only get one. Isn't a real problem >for me, though, since I'm not really quite ready for it just yet anyway. > >Josh >Alex Cazin >Derek Deeter >Tom Cloud >Dave Compton >Jim Dibble >Pat >Craig Eid >Terry Fair >Gary Graham >Todd King >Todd Knighton >Cliff Koch >Jonathan Lloyd >George Najarian >Bob Nell >James Pearl >Bradford Peterson >Sven Pruett >Eric Riggert >Steve Sadler >Jody Shapiro >"Dr. Shidel; BA, BS, MS, PhD" >Dan Stokes >James Weiler >Donald Whisnant >Travis Willis > >Thanks, >Tom Cloud There's an outfit on the web that advertises reprogramable eec's, with a price that's not totally ridicoulous. I enquired and they replied with a request for more vehicle info. Maybe it's me, but when somebody can't provide product info without trying some propietary single vehicle scam I lose interest in a hurry. My reply to them stated that if they had to have a particular vehicle use a 54 cornbinder, thought that would give them a good baseline. Guess what? No reply! My cornbinder is turbocharged, has injection provisions, and 500 cu. in. Anyhow, I'm looking for a tool that can be used on all cars if the right sensors and wiring are put in place, not something that has to be junked with every car. Anyhow, if anything like this comes out of this, add me to the list. >------------------------------ > >From: "Johnny" >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:50 -0700 >Subject: Re: Wires and such > >AMP makes a pretty good one for about 80 bucks. It comes with one set of >dies for your regular "car type" crimp connectors and many other die sets >are available, like for BNC's etc. It pays to use "real" connectors too. >The AMP connectors give good results, and they make just about any >connector you can think of. > >Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires >that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) >wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. > >Once you have used a real crimper on real connectors... well, the next time >you are at Al's and you see that glorious $6.95 connector kit with the >crimper and the the connectors you will enjoy snickering as you pass by. If >you want a real good laugh, just ask the doofass behind the counter "hey, >where do you keep the real crimpers". > >- -j- > >- ---------- >> From: Steve Ciciora >> To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: Wires and such >> Date: Friday, September 27, 1996 12:14 PM >> >> > >> > Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and >> > want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's >> > not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that >> > works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one >> > (Forget who really makes it). >> > >> >> I once had to buy a mil-spec crimper to crimp a PTO6A-14-12C bendix >> connector to get power from a ER-2 (U-2) spy plane... I believe >> the crimper ran about $300! There is a difference in aircraft >> crimp connectors and automotive crimp connectors... >> - Steven Ciciora > >------------------------------ > >From: smtjr@mail.utexas.edu (steve m trindade) >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:10:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: Checking fuel pressure? > >mike, >i am not sure if it would work or not, but I wouldn't recommend it. they do >make special high pressure gauges specifically for measuring fuel pressure. >in my experience i have never seen a test port that was a schrader valve >anyway. there is another benefit to using the right test gauge. they screw >on and seal and usually come with a fairly long hose. with this you can >usually go for a drive with the gauge peeking from under the cowl of the >hood so you can read while you drive. that's where you get your good >information from. > > >Steve Trindade (smtjr@mail.utexas.edu) >P1 Engineering >Austin, Tx. USA > >------------------------------ > >From: Shaun Brady >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:06:25 -0700 >Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > >>Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems >>with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? > >The motor is a Honda Hawk. 647 cc, Liquid cooled, aluminum, V-Twin, 3 >Valves per cylinder. I assembled the engine at a local shop that sponsers >me, and while it sat on the bench an old car oval track racer came in and >shared his experiences with coatings. They were much more expensive in his >day, and not widely known. They coated an aluminum headed small block >chevy's pistons and combustion chambers. Initially they didn't see much of >an improvement on the dyno, but they couldn't get the oil or water >temperature into the normal range either. After they had revised the >cooling systems and carb jetting, they saw a 35 hp improvement on a 500 hp >motor. It startled me how close this comes to Vizards publications. This >was a fully developed motor configuration they had been using for years. >The Hawk motor was good for 71 Hp from 40 cubes. Stock was 42 Hp. The >motor had 11.5:1 compression, a fairly radical cam, cleaned up ports, stock >valves, low restriction exhaust and intake systems. The motor output is >limited by the valve sizes, a really poor combustion chamber design, and an >exhaust port with limitations similar to a Cleveland ford. I selected a >piston manufactured from a material that allowed tighter piston-bore >clearances, coated it, and assembled the motor with clearances on the tight >side of recommended. > >>Can you give more details of exactly what brand and type of coatings you >>used? Were they Jet Hot, or ceramic, or what? > >I used the Polydyn Coatings (713-694-3296), as mentioned in Vizards book. >It was a very thin baked on coating, probably ceramic, probably serving a >reflective rather than insulating function. Summit (330-630-3030) sells 3 >oz bottles for less than $30. There are separate coatings for Aluminum and >Iron. They are sprayed on and then baked at either 350 F (Al) or 450 F >(Fe). Polydyn Coats Piston tops for $14, combustion chambers $28, valves $5 >ea. They will also do the backside of valves and exhaust ports. I've seen >Harley pistons for sale precoated with the other coating system Vizard >mentions (Swain Technologies). Friction reducing coatings are also popular >among motorcycle racers, but I've heard their useful life on piston skirts >is fairly short. I spent more on the UPS than I did the coatings, and that >was for little motorcycle parts. I'd like to do a 460 ford boat motor I'm >building, but can't imagine the shipping costs this would involve, and will >probably give the Summit coatings a try. > >I would think that everything you can do to keep the heat out of an air >cooled motor would be a good thing. Vizard suggests that the secondary >modifications allowed by coatings would improve power further yet. Things >like narrower valve seats. Tighter piston clearances are another >posibility. Do car guys use Nikasil bores yet? > >I see reference after reference to proffesional engine builders using these >coatings, it is more than a fad. If you can find someone who specializes in >your engine, and will sell you a set of coated pistons, assemble them to the >clearances they've developed. Otherwise, your left with starting with the >tight side of recommended. > >Good Luck > >SBrady > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #290 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 29 21:21:26 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA04899; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:07:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freya.van.hookup.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA04894; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 17:07:49 -0400 Received: from pmeU03.unlimited.awinc.com (pmeU03.unlimited.awinc.com [206.12.233.4]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.7.5/1.12) with SMTP id OAA25550 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609292107.OAA25550@freya.van.hookup.net> X-Sender: dnorquay@awinc.van.hookup.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Flame On! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:59 PM 9/28/96 -0700, Talltom wrote a few line reply with 10 attached messages that have absolutely nothing to do with the reply... Already read em', trashed 'em, don't wanna read 'em all 15 times over searching for the meat of the message 'cause everybody is too lazy to delete all the irrelevant crap from their replies. This is just a very small flame, don't take it personal, long Tom, you were just the last guilty party, but by far not the only one. Seems that the people who get the digest version of the list are the worst, cause they receive this stuff all in one lump, they think it's ok to send it all back again in one lump. Then the next guy adds his 2 bits worth, and does it again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Think of all that pristine, virgin bandwidth that could be carrying something useful, going to waste sending the same dull sh#t over and over again... Not to mention that some poor slob's hard disk somewhere has 367 copies of the same message in various incarnations stored on it for future reference. That's why Billy G. invented editors, so's you can delete all the irrelevant crap. Puhleeze! don't reply to this and waste more bandwidth, just keep it in mind next time you do reply, and show *some* awareness of netiquette... Flame Off! regards dn dnorquay@awinc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 29 22:30:06 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA04999; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:26:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04994; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 18:26:43 -0400 Received: from van-as-11a15.direct.ca ([204.174.245.111]) by orb.direct.ca with SMTP id <30371-26363>; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:26:32 -0700 X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:03:00 -0700 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: DFI ECU Message-Id: <96Sep29.152632-0700pdt.30371-26363+431@orb.direct.ca> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All A friend of mine is looking for a DFI or ACCEL ecu for his blown 671 351 W. If anyone has a used unit for sale let me know. Does anyone know how to get a hold of DFI. Thanx all: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Sep 29 23:16:00 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA05059; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:13:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.sojourn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA05054; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:13:07 -0400 Received: from ld-nas-057.sojourn.com(really [199.177.127.156]) by mail.sojourn.com via smail with smtp id for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:13:04 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-15) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960929231225.4ac7a264@sojourn.com> X-Sender: lance@sojourn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:12:25 -0400 To: diy_efi From: Lance Ward Subject: Re: DFI ECU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:03 PM 9/29/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All > >A friend of mine is looking for a DFI or ACCEL ecu for his >blown 671 351 W. If anyone has a used unit for sale let me know. > >Does anyone know how to get a hold of DFI. > >Thanx all: peter > I'm a systems engineer there. Can I help? Regards, Lance ======================================================== Lance Ward (lance@sojourn.com) (JustaV6 @ IRC) www.sojourn.com/~lance ======================================================== From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 04:15:11 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA05474; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:11:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA05469; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:11:48 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx24-19.teleport.com (ip-pdx24-19.teleport.com [206.163.126.91]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21022 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609300411.VAA21022@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: talltom@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: talltom Subject: Bob Harris? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bob Harris - you out there? Don't have your address and I've got something I think you might like to see. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 04:42:41 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA05540; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:39:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA05535; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:39:20 -0400 Received: from cyberg8t.cyberg8t.com (157.22.213.34) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:42:09 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:59:49 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1368089167-1426091@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Just a random thought. Spark Ignitions have been around since the turn of the century, and unlike any other part of the engine, have remained essentially unchanged - simply refined. We still start the fire with an itty bitty flame and wait until it slowly spreads thru the chamber. Has anyone given any serious thought to using industrial strength gas lasers or similar technology? Picture instead of a small flame starting at the plug and radiating outward, a shaped beam of energy fanning thru the chamber - igniting virtually all the fuel almost instantly thru out the chamber. Potential benefits - almost total combustion, more power, very little power robbing spark advance needed, etc. I picture something like a quartz window screwed in where the plug now goes, a large, flexible fiber optic light pipe going from the plug to the laser and a high speed high power laser for each cylinder being fired by control electronics. I'd pick its light frequency to be harmonically related to either the hydrogen or carbon atoms resonance to get maximum energy transfer. What would be nicer would be to steal some star wars weapons stuff. Don't matter what the source or type of energy beam - heck I'd even use a phasor beam (if it was remotely connected to reality) - just as long as I could fire the whole chamber almost simultaneously. I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. Won't see anything like this in production for years - cost you know. If it costs $1.00 more and you make a million cars, thats almost enuff saved to pay for a party for the president if you don't do it. Probably won't see it in the U.S.A. Anything powerful enuff to light the fire will be labeled as a munition by the CIA or banned as a terrorist weapon not usable for hunting or sporting purposes by our president. Now I realize that the preceding idea was not discussed in the fourth edition of the holy grail by some long dead European dude before the onset of senility and probably has not hitten popular hot rodding or thermodynamics 101, but, I've got new asbestos panty liners so I thought I'd ask. Besides, if the technology is ready, and I can steal it, I really don't care what the world thinks ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton? A: She had the balls to go to Viet Nam Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 11:56:08 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA06039; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:49:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA06034; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:49:41 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA22936 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:52:32 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id HAA26170; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:49:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat In-Reply-To: <1368089167-1426091@uia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Robert Harris wrote: > > Has anyone given any serious thought to using industrial strength > gas lasers or similar technology? Not quite relavent, but I heard that Saab uses the top of the piston as the negative electrode for the spark, so that it creates a spark from the top of the combustion chamber to the bottom (piston top). > I've got new asbestos > panty liners... Cross-dressing, are we? ;) **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 12:10:43 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA06067; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:06:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA06062; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:06:56 -0400 Received: from frankparker.chem.lsa.umich.edu by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.3) with SMTP id IAA12506; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:09:25 -0600 (EDT) From: Frank Parker To: peter paul fenske cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: DFI ECU X-Sender: fparker@f.imap.itd.umich.edu In-Reply-To: <96Sep29.152632-0700pdt.30371-26363+431@orb.direct.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Hi All > > A friend of mine is looking for a DFI or ACCEL ecu for his > blown 671 351 W. If anyone has a used unit for sale let me know. > > Does anyone know how to get a hold of DFI. > > Thanx all: peter > > DFI may be reached in Wixom, MI at 810-380-1322. Frank Parker From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 12:57:23 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA06171; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:52:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from internet-mail.ford.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA06166; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:52:27 -0400 From: atsakiri@ford.com Received: by internet-mail.ford.com id AA23080 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:52:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199609301252.AA23080@internet-mail.ford.com> Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:52:26 -0400 Received: by internet-mail.ford.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:52:26 -0400 To: diy_efi Cc: atsakiri@ford.com Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 28 Sep 96 14:27:53." <176@turbo.win-uk.net> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 08:52:24 -0400 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Snipets ... > >> "you'll see that ford does not use the CPU as it was designed (to be > >> used?) . . . they waste so much CPU it's pitiful" > >> > > Having spent from 1986 to 1994 full-time consulting to Ford (both in > Europe for FOB and in the U.S. for NAAO) on EEC-iv/EEC-v design and > programming, I'd be genuinely interested to hear the basis for those > comments. Part of the basis for those comments might be the original writer's past experience working for Ford, in Dearborn, Michigan. I recognize the writer's name as working in the same department I once worked in. No comment as to whether I agree or disagree with the writer's characterization of CPU usage. > >>i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a > >>bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) > >>the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" > >>for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is > >>done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real > >>programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. > > I'll deliberately pass on the "real-programmer" comment, suffice to > say that I'd love to see the algorythm that could calculate > required/optimium Spark Advance under all conditions to enable the > engine to meet its operating criteria of power, driveability and > most importantly emissions given the input data available to an > EEC, i.e. CPS timing data, engine temperature, air-charge > temperature, throttle position, EGO data and Cylinder-ID to name > the significant ones. It's (relatively) easy to determine/calculate > the spark required for optimium power, but the compromises made to > meet emissions and driveability makes it a whole new ball game. I'd like to see such an algorithm too, then I'd like to see it run on a computer that can be affordably packaged in a car or truck. > >From my understanding of [ ] box, you can map out the internal > PROM and use external memory which would let you run any > program/calibration you wanted (and had copies of) in an EEC. > I'd guess you'd need a permanent piggy-back type board with an > EPROM and address decoder PAL on it (a la Super-Chips) to make > permanent changes tho'....... > > I for one would be interested to hear more about these boxes, > especially if they're to become commercially available. I could > find a good use for one ! As I recall, Ford has some discussions about that too. I don't know how the situation was concluded, but you might want to check on the legal restrictions in general and the legal status in particular. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 13:32:17 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA06386; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:26:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA06381; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:26:40 -0400 Received: from slip-85-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43706; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:26:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:26:37 -0500 Message-Id: <9609301326.AA43706@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Wires and such Cc: dibble@hagar.ph.utexas.edu, bbixler@austin.cc.tx.us Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires >that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) >wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. [ snip ] Soldered connections are still the standard for the majority of hi- reliability connections. Mil-Spec (I mention this, because mil-spec and NASA specs are some of the toughest in the world) and NASA allow crimp only under very stringent guidelines (of course, the same could be said for soldering). Wire wrap is NOT COOL for anything. It's only for temporary connections or for connections which are in a non-hostile environment (i.e. no humidity or temperature extremes, no vibration, etc. -- essentially in a building). The definition of a good electrical connection: 1. Low resistance. 2. Mechanically sound. 3. Gas tight (so no oxidation can occur). Wire wrap barely meets those criterion. It's low resistance because there's a minimum of ten wraps around a square post (40 contact points) using silver plated wire. It's hardly mechanically sound -- if for no other reason than it uses solid wire which easily breaks. It is gas tight because the wire is "work hardened" by being pulled under tension around the post and therefore becomes springy and maintains a constant pressure trying to unwrap itself (the wire is indented by the post and those indentions, combined with the springiness of the wire, keep the wire pulling against the 40 or more contact points. That is why the wire usually breaks when unwrapping a wire wrapped connection -- the copper has been work hardened. Stranded wire is used for most applications because it is less likely to break (copper, silver, etc. are *work hardened* by being bent, twisted, hit, compressed, etc. -- that's why copper gaskets must be annealed with a torch before being re-used). Solid wire should only be used where there is no possibility of the wire being moved (like jumpers on circuit boards) and where vibration won't cause it to break. The advantages of solid wire are that it holds its shape better than stranded and it's slightly cheaper. Now, for soldered and crimped connections. Crimping is a technology like front wheel drive: it's to save money for the manufacturer. Soldering is very difficult to inspect. It's very hard to train a worker to produce consistently high quality solder joints and it's easy to have a joint that looks good on the surface but which does not join to the metal underneath, giving a *cold* solder joint. (Recommend a book on soldering from an electronics store or Rat-Shack). Crimping, on the other hand, is fast and, if the right tools and connectors are used, can give very consistent results. What's this about not soldering wires that move around? Well, solder *wicks* (by capillary action) up the strands causing the wire to effectively become solid. This increases its likelihood of breaking. So, the rules specify how far the solder is allowed to wick (about 1/8"). There is no evidence that says properly crimped connections are any better than properly soldered ones. The reason I suggest soldering is that most of the problems encountered in electrical / electronic circuits are due to faulty connections. You are not likely to find good crimp connectors at your local parts house (nor will you find a good soldering iron or solder there, for that matter). It is just my experience (and I have a bunch installing industrial electronics in vehicles and ships doing instrumentation and communications) that soldered connections, done by someone who cares, are far less likely to give problems than crimped ones -- and wire wrap must NEVER be used outside of a controlled environment like a home or garage. NEVER use wire wrap in a car, etc. [A quick history of wire wrap. It was patented by Gardner-Denver company and popularized by the telephone company. They used to have to solder wires to terminal blocks in the switch station to hook up new subscribers or to change 'phone numbers. This was real messy, and the terminal blocks were damaged after being soldered on several times. Wire wrap was much faster (they use punch blocks now). The interesting thing to note here is that they originally thought wire wrap would last indefinitely in a controlled environment. Turns out, however, that the connections began to fail after about fifteen years even in the closed switch stations. There's enough vibration just from seismic activity, apparently, to affect the connections, plus the wire's pull seems to relax. Then the silver begins to oxidize under the contact point and, eventually, the resistance of the connection reaches unacceptable levels.] Now, don't misunderstand, I crimp connections in my car. And I'll put a wire-wrapped doo-dad in it if I want to. Just like I sometimes buy parts from Rat-Shack when I know they're poor quality. But, I won't crimp or wire-wrap anything that can cause me to walk home!!! I just want the list members to know what's been found to work reliably -- and why. Tom Cloud Tom Cloud I have no idea where any of the preceeding stuff came from ... From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 14:11:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA06478; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:09:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06473; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:09:05 -0400 Received: from slip-85-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17608; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:09:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:09:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9609301409.AA17608@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: atoian@ix.netcom.com (Eddie G. Atoian) (by way of cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud)) Subject: EEC-IV ? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone know if a manual EEC-IV will work on an automatic? Also anyone know the code for '88 turbo coupe auto? | Another Fordnatics post -- Author retains copyright -- ask before forwarding | |Posts: fordnatics@lists.best.com Requests: fordnatics-request@lists1.best.com| From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 14:56:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA06547; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:52:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA06542; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:52:49 -0400 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk by pat.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:52:36 +0100 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 30 Sep 96 15:52:46 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 30 Sep 96 15:52:26 GMT0BST From: M HILL Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:52:25 GMT0BST Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (R0) Message-ID: <13D70717CF5@ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >>i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a > >>bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) > >>the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" > >>for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is > >>done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real > >>programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. I take it from that that you have not seen the strategies for the computers. They do a lot more than just looking at a couple of tables. I know 'cos I have seen the strategies for EEC-IV. Martin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 16:21:02 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA06678; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:16:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA06673; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:16:34 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <116538-26579>; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:16:31 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05565; Mon, 30 Sep 96 12:05:15 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma005561; Mon Sep 30 12:05:13 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15966; Mon, 30 Sep 96 12:13:30 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA25383; Mon, 30 Sep 96 12:14:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:14:54 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609301614.AA25383@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, is > rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher > temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Try silicone insulated wire. We use that for motor leads in radio controlled cars. The good stuff is so flexible it's limp. Try any good hobby shop. (I actually repaired a clothes dryer with this stuff. It's really good.) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 17:16:24 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA06832; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:11:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA06827; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:11:22 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <117058-29174>; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:11:02 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06180; Mon, 30 Sep 96 12:59:49 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006178; Mon Sep 30 12:59:29 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16439; Mon, 30 Sep 96 13:07:47 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA25541; Mon, 30 Sep 96 13:09:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:09:11 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609301709.AA25541@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab > guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be > adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look back through the digests, and you should find it. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 18:57:14 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA06967; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:50:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06962; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:50:43 -0400 Received: from slip-85-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22436; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:50:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:50:38 -0500 Message-Id: <9609301850.AA22436@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Chuck Thigpen" From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: digital dashboard Cc: diy_efi, fordnatics@lists.best.com Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >> Look in Radio-Electronics, July, 1990 for an article on building >> a digital dashboard. I personally like the Intersil ICL-7106, ICL-7116 >> chips. They are 40-pin, but require a minimal amount of external >> components and drive the LCD (or LED -- see ICL-7107 or 7117) >> display directly. Hosfelt Electronics (800-524-6464) has these chips >> already on a circuit board with the display for about $16. The >> circuit is the standard circuit described from Intersil, and is a >> differential input. >> The sensors and scaling their outputs to the DPM are another problem. >> As long as the outputs are linear, simple op-amp circuits will >> suffice (LM-324 is a quad op-amp and allows single supply operation). > > >Tom, > >Thanks for the help on getting me started. The only other question >I have is how to handle the display. Do you have any ideas as >to how I would display the proper units for each measurement? >For example: Suppose a .5V signal corresponds to an inlet air temp of >150 F. How would I get the LCD to display the 150 F temperature? >Thanks in advance for any thoughts. > >Chuck Thigpen The National Semiconductor Linear Applications books are great for circuit ideas. Making a display read in the units you want is called "scaling" and can get real tricky. Of course, the easiest is when all you have to do is divide a voltage down using two resistors. The hairiest can be when you have to add an offset voltage and maybe linearize a logarithmic sensor output (e.g. a thermocouple). For your specific example: you gotta know both ends of the spectrum and whether it's a straight line (linear). But let's just take your specific example: if you have a meter that reads 200 mV (actually 199.9 mV for a 3-1/2 digit meter), .5 volts is too large a voltage for it. Divide the .5 volts to where it is .15 volts and your DPM will read 150.0 (you can usually set the decimal point wherever you want it). This would probably be done using a couple of resistors and a pot for fine adjustment / calibration. input o--- R1 --- POT --- R2 --- GND ^ | output Sample values: if you want to vary the output say +/- .05 volts around the .15 volts: choose a pot (there are fewer values available). Say 1 k. Then (.05)*2 = .1 and .1 volt / 1k = 100 micro-amps. Since the voltage across the pot is from .1 to .2, the voltage across R1 = .5 - .2 = .3 volts and across R2 = .1 volts. Then the values for R1 = .3 / 100 microamps = 3 k; and R2 = .1 / 100 microA = 10 k. The "load" your network puts on the sensor is the sum of all the R's and is 3 + 1 + 10 = 14 k. If your sensor requires less load (higher R, you can multiply each value by the same amount and boost it to any value. Hope this helps -- you'll probably have to do some studying. Radio- Electronics and other electronic hobbyist mags can be very helpful. Tom Cloud I have no idea where any of the preceeding stuff came from ... From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 19:27:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA07033; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:22:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA07028; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:22:01 -0400 Received: from slip-85-4.ots.utexas.edu by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47231; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:21:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:21:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9609301921.AA47231@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab >> guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be >> adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. > > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all >of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look >back through the digests, and you should find it. Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 19:30:15 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA07056; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:28:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailgate.uspto.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA07051; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:28:04 -0400 Received: from pioneer.uspto.gov (pioneer.uspto.gov [151.207.128.1]) by mailgate.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24396 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:30:50 -0400 Received: (from wright@localhost) by pioneer.uspto.gov (8.7.4/8.7.3) id PAA22467; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:28:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Dirk Wright X-Sender: wright@pioneer.uspto.gov To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat In-Reply-To: <9609301709.AA25541@ivan.gallium.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look > back through the digests, and you should find it. Let's see, need at least one magnetron, some waveguides, and some kind of distributor. Also need highvoltge inverter. Hmmm.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@uspto.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 20:13:56 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA07134; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:03:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA07129; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:03:48 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <115216-6342>; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:03:37 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07194; Mon, 30 Sep 96 15:52:25 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007190; Mon Sep 30 15:52:17 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17801; Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:00:36 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA27032; Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:02:01 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:02:01 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609302002.AA27032@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? If I understand this correctly, having two flame fronts colide (preignition) is a BAD idea. But if it all goes off at the same time, it's OK (think of it as a *very* fast burning fuel). Probably won't need as much advance. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 20:16:29 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA07166; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:15:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA07161; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:15:35 -0400 Received: from braketosh400 (pon-mi1-22.ix.netcom.com [205.186.168.54]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA27726 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:15:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199609302015.NAA27726@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> From: "Chuck Tomlinson" To: Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:15:16 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: Michael F. Sargent > > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look > back through the digests, and you should find it. Forget microwaves; use 16:1 compression ...OR... How is this different from detonation? -- Chuck Tomlinson From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 20:16:31 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA07159; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:15:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA07154; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:15:17 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA05394 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:14:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Chevy EFI Mods Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am considering the replacement of the stock 350 in my 1988 Chevy truck with either a 350/350 or a 383/350 from an aftermarket source. The truck is a 4x4 (1500 Series) used for street stuff and occasional towing. I am interested in more power and torque in the 1200 to 4500 rpm range. Assuming that either of these motors are appropriate -- and both come with an Edelbrock manifold, perhaps a Torquer -- what modifications are needed for my TBI to compensate for the extra displacement and increased flows? Do I just need a new chip -- are they available and from where -- or am I looking at extensive EFI mods or a carburetor. Neither of these alternatives is very appealing just now. What happens if I just bolt the old EFI onto the new 350? Or the new 383? John From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 20:51:01 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA07237; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:44:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA07232; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:44:18 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([207.134.22.2]) by mail.uunet.ca with SMTP id <115287-8242>; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:44:08 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07350; Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:32:57 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007343; Mon Sep 30 16:32:27 1996 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18196; Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:40:45 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @odin.gallium.com:diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id AA27065; Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:42:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:42:11 -0400 From: MSargent@gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Message-Id: <9609302042.AA27065@ivan.gallium.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Forget microwaves; use 16:1 compression ...OR... How is this different from > detonation? The problem with engine control is timing. With 16:1 compression, the time when the mixure ignites is not as predictable as using 10:1 and sparking it to start it burning. Microwaves have predictable timing ... NOW! +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 21:09:59 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA07273; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:04:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailhost.cpsc.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA07268; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:04:02 -0400 Received: from fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.2.1]) by mailhost.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.3) id ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:03:36 -0600 (MDT) From: fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Received: by fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (1.1; from fridman@localhost) id ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609302104.PAA01270@fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > > Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? > > If I understand this correctly, having two flame fronts colide (preignition) > is a BAD idea. But if it all goes off at the same time, it's OK (think of it > as a *very* fast burning fuel). Probably won't need as much advance. Having 2 flame fronts does not seem to be so bad. On some engines (BMW Boxer pushrod motorcycle engines), having 2 flame fronts reduces burn time to such an extent, that raising the compression (8.5:1 to 9.5:1) and reducing the octane (from super to regular) is possible. The mixture can be leaned out as well. I would guess that the twin flame fronts burn the mixture inside the ignition lag time, so detonation is avoided. Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple spark plugs per cylinder? RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@cpsc.ucalgary.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 21:26:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA07301; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:16:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.erols.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA07296; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:16:13 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (spg-as12s04.erols.com [206.161.171.4]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA16975 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3250630F.399E@erols.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:17:19 -0700 From: Frank Mallory Organization: SRS X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures References: <9609301614.AA25383@ivan.gallium.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Try silicone insulated wire. We use that for motor leads in radio controlled > cars. The good stuff is so flexible it's limp. Try any good hobby shop. > (I actually repaired a clothes dryer with this stuff. It's really good.) I've been getting pretty good copper core, silicone rubber insulated 8mm wire from J. C. Whitney. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 22:42:04 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA07444; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:32:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07439; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:31:59 -0400 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id PAA01494 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:31:54 -0700 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id PAA19072 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:31:52 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id PAA00838 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:39:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:39:36 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960930153758.09570374@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: Chevy EFI Mods Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You should use an Perfromer RPM manifiold for that application. me At 04:14 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >I am considering the replacement of the stock 350 in my 1988 Chevy truck >with either a 350/350 or a 383/350 from an aftermarket source. The truck >is a 4x4 (1500 Series) used for street stuff and occasional towing. > >I am interested in more power and torque in the 1200 to 4500 rpm range. > >Assuming that either of these motors are appropriate -- and both come with >an Edelbrock manifold, perhaps a Torquer -- what modifications are needed >for my TBI to compensate for the extra displacement and increased flows? > >Do I just need a new chip -- are they available and from where -- or am I >looking at extensive EFI mods or a carburetor. Neither of these >alternatives is very appealing just now. > >What happens if I just bolt the old EFI onto the new 350? Or the new >383? > >John > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 23:07:12 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA07480; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:56:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07475; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:56:28 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id PAA13783 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32504EB7.761D@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:50:31 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat References: <1368089167-1426091@uia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Robert Harris wrote: > > I picture something like a quartz window screwed in where the plug > now goes, a large, flexible fiber optic light pipe going from the plug > to the laser and a high speed high power laser for each cylinder being > fired by control electronics. I'd pick its light frequency to be > harmonically > related to either the hydrogen or carbon atoms resonance to get > maximum energy transfer. What would be nicer would be to steal some > star wars weapons stuff. Don't matter what the source or type of energy > beam - heck I'd even use a phasor beam (if it was remotely connected to > reality) - just as long as I could fire the whole chamber almost > simultaneously. > I think I remember the addage "I don't do windows", and if I won't, who can I send in to wash my "Quartz Window" off all the time. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering P.S. Otherwise, cool idea, but why not just play with the compression a bit more, inject the flammable stuff at the right time and boom. No spark needed, oh sorry, that's a diesel. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 23:07:45 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA07489; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:59:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07484; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:59:08 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (hollywood-ppp.oec.com [199.172.130.25]) by mail.westworld.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA09438 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:58:48 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960930225736.0091ee80@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:57:36 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:21 PM 9/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>> I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab >>> guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be >>> adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. >> > These guys a while back invented this thing, it was made of a glass like substance with a metal electrode through the middle, I can't remember what they called it, but it worked very well. ;-) Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Sep 30 23:24:07 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07560; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:14:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07555; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:14:31 -0400 From: SRavet@bangate.compaq.com Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.36]) by wotan.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:49:07 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: from bangate.compaq.com(really [131.168.114.234]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:49:05 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.2 built 25-may-96) Received: by bangate.compaq.com; Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:48:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:48:43 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: Combustion chamber heat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dirk Wright Wrote: | | > | > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all | > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look | > back through the digests, and you should find it. | | Let's see, need at least one magnetron, some waveguides, and some kind of | distributor. Also need highvoltge inverter. Hmmm.... Or a handfull of Gunn diodes and 30v at a few amps... How much mw power would it take to ignite the mixture, and how would you get the power into the chamber? Steve Ravet sravet@bangate.compaq.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Oct 1 01:17:33 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA07785; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:04:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA07780; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:04:08 -0400 Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15441 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:04:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from slcan2p27.ozemail.com.au (slcan2p27.ozemail.com.au [203.108.192.43]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA20052 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:04:04 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961001181537.2bb741a6@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: fawkacs@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 11:03:21 +1100 To: diy_efi From: Michael Fawke Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [snip] >Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple >spark plugs per cylinder? > Car and Car Conversions magazine's tech person has built an 8 plug Ford pinto motor for an escort race car. It uses adapters screwed into the head with motorcycle plugs. Timing advance had to be reduced, but tests could not be completed because the adapters came loose. The adapters were screw-in to avoid a rule about welded heads.... There have been two articles on this subject in the last four or so issues this year. The magazine is published by Link House. Michael Fawke Canberra, Australia. fawkacs@ozemail.com.au From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Oct 1 05:41:35 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA08165; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 05:23:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA08159; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:23:08 -0400 Received: from zeos (dial004h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.69]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id WAA24267 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3250A98B.4E0C@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:18:03 -0700 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs References: <1.5.4.16.19961001181537.2bb741a6@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Michael Fawke wrote: > > [snip] > >Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple > >spark plugs per cylinder? > > The 911's use them on the newer cars, since 1989 to be exact. The older race car (911's) had twin-plugs as well. It works very well in the Porsche's Hemispherical cylinder head design. We've noted approximately 3-4 degress advance difference on the turbo engines we do. The Fuel Economy is improved, as well as the emissions. Also heard of American Eagle making that 12 cylinder engine for drag racing with 3 plugs per cylinder on a 4 valve engine. The chambers were so huge that a central plug wasn't enough. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering