From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 1 11:14:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA16445; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:10:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi id GAA16436; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:10:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:10:07 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <199701011110.GAA16436@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: archive http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ (mirrored at http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/mirror) Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 1 17:52:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA17171; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:48:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA17166; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:48:18 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial65.voyager.net [207.74.103.65]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id MAA03028; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:47:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32CADCD2.40DA@voyager.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:53:22 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Felix Homburg CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: ODB-II Information References: <32C6F82E.1E71@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Felix: The phone numbers and address are as follows: SAE 400 Commonwealth Drive Warrendale, PA 15096-0001 USA (412) 776-4841 FAX: (412) 776-2103 They also have a home page which is (I think) http://www.sae.org The cost is (I think) $79.00 plus a handling fee that is usually around 10% of the book cost. You will find the connector blueprints, as well as description of the scan tool hardware, and a description of the protocol. The protocol is the same for each manufacturer. The emissions diagnostics information is also standard as per government mandate, but the neat stuff that you and I want to look at is not. You can access engine RPM, vehicle speed, oxygen sensor, etc. rather easily. There also exist about 256 different parameters that are added at the discretion of the manufacturer. Even among GM, where each platform is designed by a different set of engineers, there are differences in what type of information is available. Some platforms will break out calculated torque, whereas others will list torque converter slip. THIS information, which is NOT required by government mandate is not really public knowledge, and changes from model to model. I have a table for MY1997 GM Quad 4 engines and it is rather extensive. I was authorized this information only because of a contract that I had with LAD powertrain. It is not public information and is difficult for even GM engineers from other divisions to obtain. Oh, wouldn't it be nirvana if they could standardize for a change!! -- Cheers, Dan. [ '84 Trans Am - Currently under reconstruction ] ( Wanted: '87 - up 5.7L TPI motor with attached '87 - up 700R4 transmission for a reasonable price. ) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 1 18:21:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA17240; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:18:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netcom12.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA17235; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:18:48 -0500 Received: (from ludis@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id KAA05970; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 10:18:47 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 10:18:47 -0800 From: ludis@netcom.com (Ludis Langens) Message-Id: <199701011818.KAA05970@netcom12.netcom.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Subscription info Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Please send me subscription info. Thanks. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis@netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 2 05:24:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA04848; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 05:18:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grazzt.umd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA04843; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:18:36 -0500 Received: from tiamat.umd.umich.edu (root@tiamat.umd.umich.edu [141.215.69.3]) by grazzt.umd.umich.edu (8.8.3/8.8.0) with ESMTP id AAA28952 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [141.217.128.191] (pm085-01.dialip.mich.net [141.217.128.191]) by tiamat.umd.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA28060 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:18:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:21:57 -0400 To: diy_efi From: sdean@umd.umich.edu (Steve Dean) Subject: Re: Subscription info Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi HUH? >Please send me subscription info. Thanks. > > unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; >Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + >ludis@netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} Deano sdean@umd.umich.edu http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/~sdean/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 2 18:30:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA06097; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:16:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA06092; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:16:49 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d27.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.219]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA16994; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:16:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:16:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701021816.MAA16994@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: HomeBrew Mailing List Cc: FJB203@aol.com Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ladies & gentlemen of the DIY_EFI mailing list, be advised that there is a new mailing list being started, as if you aint got enough mail already. This list will cover all the fuzzy areas that the DIY-EFI and Kit Car mailing lists do not cover. Think of it as a complete DIY-car building forum. The list owner is an electronic guru also, so I inticipate lots of auto body and chassis control discussions also. We are the typical bunch of 'controll' freaks gone way over board. We all have an intrest in building a custome car (at home and on a budget)and -all- the technology that goes with it. Discussions will include engines, drivetrains, chassis & body construction techniques, paint and autobody, welding, and any other home built car topics. I encourage you to check it out and help us make it happen! Please read the original first post from the owner. GMD >From: Xephic@aol.com >Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:36:11 -0500 >Subject: HomeBrew Mailing List > >Greetings Everyone, > >Hope your New Year is healthy and happy. > >Each of you at one point indicated an interest in joining the "HomeBrew Auto" >Mailing List, and the specific difference between "HomeBrew" and "KitCar". > Therefore, I took the liberty of signing you all up . > >I'm confident there shall be a lot of overlap, there are a lot of good, >knowledgable folks in there and the forum is run very well, and I would >assume/suggest (if I may) that you all, as I, maintain connected to that >forum as well. I don't want to lose access to that information, but on the >other hand, we've been throwing around a lot of suspension, engine, design >theories that certainly might not interest the average Cobra, SL500, Aztec >population at there. I've seen a number of folks beg to get off the KitCar >list because of the volume of mail due to a lot of the "homebrew" information >& brainstorming, so in theory, by seperating some of the "offline" topics, >maybe folks who are interested in building a kit-car, might stay involved in >a good forum and not get swamped with mail, while some of us who are doing >our own thing, can brainstorm away without being considered "pests" so to >speak. I think the two forums in parallel will help us all. > >What I'm doing as an interim solution to contracting a maillist service (such >as Bolis.com, or AOL), I have decided to use an old AOL screen name of mine >(XEPHIC@aol.com), which I will get all the mail AT LEAST ONCE A DAY and >forward all the mail coming in, to all the participants going out. I will >not be "blind forwarding" whereby all the junk "call my 900 service" or "Buy >some vitamins" mail comes through, so don't worry about off topic garbage >coming through. Remember that this in interim solution, and in the near >future I will have something more automatic and professional working to >reduce work on my part, pretty much how the existing KitCar forum works >today. > >All of your replies should be to "XEPHIC@AOL.COM", which will be the >originator, so you can easily just hit reply, and type away. For your >privacy, I have all the recipiants in the list BCC'd (Blind CC'd) so email >addresses are not directly made public by my hands... however most mail >servers existing today do place footers on the bottom of outgoing messages >(from you to xephic@aol.com) so just be aware of that, if its an issue for >you. This is not unlike the KitCar forum. > >Finally, to remove or add yourself to the forum at a later date, just send a >message saying so, and I'll take care of it for you manually and add/delete >your name from the list, no problem. Also, much like the KitCar forum, I >won't be running it with an iron fist, so speak your mind and feel free to >participate. Just the standard and usual "no flaming" rule applies. > >Thanks again for expressing an interest, and hopefully this benefits us all. > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, Connecticut >FJB203@aol.com > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 2 20:12:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06410; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:06:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from device.data.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06398; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:06:04 -0500 Subject: Cross Port " Air flow measurement " To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:02:42 +0200 (sat) From: Kalle Pihlajasaari X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1200 Message-ID: <9701022202.aa14941@device.data.co.za> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, Here is a messsage from another list I'm on. It seem that ultrasonic flow measurement might be a out the box sollution but I have no idea how these are implemented, perhaps someone in the UK could make a few calls and let the list know what is on offer. Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:51:20 +0800 (HKT) > From: Stuart Smith > Subject: Re: [STAMPS]..Wind Speed Devices!!!! Low Speed+ > > Solent of the UK make an ultrasonic anemometer rated down to 0.02m/s! The > deluxe versions also do 3 dimensional direction output! The top end goes > up to 90m/s as well. However it is somewhat more expensive than the > conventional type, however they are well made and the accuracy specs. good > as they have no friction etc... > > Contact: Biral Industrial & Research, UK > Ph: +44 1275 847787 > Fax: +44 1275 847303 > e-mail: info@biral.com > WWW: http://www.biral.com > > Stuart Smith Cheers -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@ip.co.za http://www.ip.co.za/ip Interface Products P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa + 27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: 402-7751 http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 14:03:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA08707; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:55:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sequoia by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA08702; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:55:23 -0500 Received: from tlunix.tls.mms.fr by sequoia (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA07968; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:55:13 GMT Received: from penerf.tls.mms.fr by tlunix.tls.mms.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1239PM) id AA01635; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:55:21 +0100 Received: from penerf (localhost) by penerf.tls.mms.fr (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07152; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:55:28 +0100 Message-Id: <32CD0FCF.5C51@tls.mms.fr> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:55:27 +0100 From: "E. Decoux" <"E. Decoux"eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Subject: PORSCHE 911 Carrera MOTRONIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello, My name is Eric DECOUX (e-mail : eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr) Fantastic, I can't believe that such a site exist. First, I'd like to apologize for my very poor english. I am a frenshie, ... you know I live in this small country over the ocean. I own a 911 Carrera 89 whithout catalytic exhaust (231 hp) and of course, I know it isn't very original, I'd like it to be tuned so to add some hp. I bought a Star*chip (England) EPROM but the result is not very significative, so I have decided to make some personal adjustments in the engine management data. I have made a dump of the two EPROMs (OEM and StarChip) and surprisingly only 4 addresses are modified as follow: Address Porsche StarChip EPROM EPROM #1130 A3 ----> AB I think it is the rev limiter (right ?) #1951 1B ----> 19 (?) #1FFE 01 ----> 00 (?) #1FFF 08 ----> B9 (?) Could anybody give me some explanations about the last three addresses? I can send the overall content of an EPROM if needed. I am now trying to learn, in my lab, how this Motronic works. I have built a small electronic tool which is able to create the sensor signals (RPM and reference sensors, flow-meter, temp, ...) and simulate the loads (coil and injectors). I can read on a scope or a PC the injection durations and relative ignition advance quite easily but I don't success in correlating my measurements with the EPROM data. I'll need the addresses of the ignition advance table, injection duration table, RPM table, temp. coefficients table, ... Could I have some help? I have some other questions about the EPROM content. In such a Motronic, does the EPROM content only management data or data + the controller program? I have noted that very similar patterns are present in the EPROM content at different addresses. Are they different engine management data? When are they selected? Is it a relation with the eight positions selector? I intend to use a hot wire sensor instead of the flap flow-meter. Do you think that Motronic is flexible enough for such a modification. I think at first glance that a redistribution of load sites in order to match the new sensor could be sufficient. If not, a diy-efi will be necessary. Thank's for answers. Eric PS: Do you have some other tips for such a car? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 16:42:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA09193; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:31:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from korky.fe.up.pt by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA09177; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:30:34 -0500 Received: by korky.fe.up.pt; id AA05933; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:30:36 GMT Received: by tom.fe.up.pt; (5.65/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-1216PM) id AA08815; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:31:14 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:31:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Joao Carlos Silva To: diy_efi Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: PORSCHE 911 Carrera MOTRONIC In-Reply-To: <32CD0FCF.5C51@tls.mms.fr> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, E. Decoux wrote: > My name is Eric DECOUX (e-mail : eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr) > > Address Porsche StarChip > EPROM EPROM > > #1130 A3 ----> AB I think it is the rev limiter (right ?) > #1951 1B ----> 19 (?) > #1FFE 01 ----> 00 (?) > #1FFF 08 ----> B9 (?) > Hi Eric, First your conutry is not that small, I live in Portugal. I'm not shure but usualy Electrotecnical Engineers (like myself) save the last 2 bytes in a EPROM for something call "checksum" I belive that a 8kbytes ROM an it's last bytes are 1FFF and 1FFE so i guess you only have to solve the other byte problem. Hope this helps in anything.. Joao Carlos Silva deec273@tom.fe.up.pt From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 16:44:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA09210; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:38:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cbgw1.lucent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA09205; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:38:33 -0500 Received: from ihgp4.ih.lucent.com by cbig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id LAA15746; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:31:20 -0500 Received: by ihgp4.ih.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id KAA28146; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:42:06 -0600 From: cabiness@lucent.com Received: from ihgp193x.ih.lucent.com by ihgp4.ih.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id KAA28137; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:42:03 -0600 Received: by ihgp193x.ih.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id KAA00508; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:47:02 -0600 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:47:02 -0600 Original-From: krc@ihgp.ih.lucent.com Message-Id: <199701031647.KAA00508@ihgp193x.ih.lucent.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: SB Chevy retrofit, Accel vs. Edelbrock? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bill, Thanks for the reply. Your reccomendation of single plane 4-bbl intake with injectors makes me even more torn on my decision. That is exactly what the Edelbrock unit is, a single plane Torker manifold with sequential port injection, injectors installed right at the heads. Now I'm considering using the Edelbrock unit and if I'm not happy with the computer, upgrade it to the Accel unit. The Accel computer's knock sensor capability is very appealing given my 11:1 compression (I'll be using 103 octane racing fuel on the track, but would prefer to run something less than $3.50/gal for street use and breakin). Thanks again. Kenton > I've successfully used the Accel system on a 377 SBC. I elected to use an > salvage 305 TPI system for a base, then used Lucas 42# injectors, Accel > harness & computer (w/ cold start block off) and a GM Y-body (corvette) > distributor with an Accel knock detector. I made gobs of torque, but the > motor went seriously flat after about 5KRPM. The Accel SupeRam will also go > away on top, but not quite so early. If you want to make power upstairs, > try a tunnel ram or single plane 4-bbl manifold modified for port injectors. > Accel makes and sells all the component parts you'll need to complete the > set-up. Get in touch with Harry Hruska in Linwood (Lynwood?) Illinois. He > stocks most of the Accel components and makes LOTS of power with the Accel > line. And, yes, you're going to need engine-out-of-car dyno time to coax > maximum hp from the engine....there's simply no othrer way. Good luck. > > > Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 21:35:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA10516; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:05:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA10511; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:05:50 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:05:50 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BBF97F.39DBCE90@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:05:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01BBF97F.39DBCE90@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy efi'" Subject: Ford Ranger Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:05:48 -0700 Encoding: 17 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Any help/comment on the issue below would be greatly appreciated: My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it but he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. AFAIK plugs/leads/dist cap etc are all in good cond. It's been into a ford dealer and they couldn't fix it although I'm not sure how hard they tried...... Any advise welcome. Thanks in advance Peter S From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 22:00:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA10585; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:49:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chiswick.globalnet.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA10580; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:48:21 -0500 Received: from annabelle by chiswick.globalnet.co.uk with SMTP (8.8.3/16.2) id VAA24570; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:46:40 GMT Message-ID: <32CD7E7E.7538@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 21:47:43 +0000 From: Roy Organization: SPECTRIC'S LTD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Cross Port " Air flow measurement " References: <9701022202.aa14941@device.data.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Kalle Pihlajasaari wrote: > > Hi, > > Here is a messsage from another list I'm on. > > It seem that ultrasonic flow measurement might be a out the box sollution > but I have no idea how these are implemented, perhaps someone in > the UK could make a few calls and let the list know what is on offer. > > Forwarded message: > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:51:20 +0800 (HKT) > > From: Stuart Smith > > Subject: Re: [STAMPS]..Wind Speed Devices!!!! Low Speed+ > > > > Solent of the UK make an ultrasonic anemometer rated down to 0.02m/s! The > > deluxe versions also do 3 dimensional direction output! The top end goes > > up to 90m/s as well. However it is somewhat more expensive than the > > conventional type, however they are well made and the accuracy specs. good > > as they have no friction etc... > > > > Contact: Biral Industrial & Research, UK > > Ph: +44 1275 847787 > > Fax: +44 1275 847303 > > e-mail: info@biral.com > > WWW: http://www.biral.com > > > > Stuart Smith > > Cheers > -- > Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@ip.co.za http://www.ip.co.za/ip > Interface Products P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa > + 27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: 402-7751 http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle > > DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer > > FROM SPECTRIC'S > > Hi there I am based in the UK and will contact this firm on Monday and post information as soon as I get it back. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 3 23:45:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA10882; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:37:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA10877; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:36:58 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va17-23.ix.netcom.com [204.32.176.183]) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10763 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:36:56 -0800 Message-ID: <32CD972D.42CD@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 18:33:01 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Ford Ranger References: <01BBF97F.39DBCE90@dhcp17.aspenres.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Peter Shoebridge wrote: > > Any help/comment on the issue below would be greatly appreciated: > > My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it but > he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the > throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight > after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is > going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. > > AFAIK plugs/leads/dist cap etc are all in good cond. It's been into a ford > dealer and they couldn't fix it although I'm not sure how hard they > tried...... > > Any advise welcome. > > Thanks in advance > > Peter S Hi, I'm not sure if this is the problem, but V-6 chevys used to have a similar stalling problem. The problem is caused by a dirty throttle body. Basically, a small percentage of idle air still flows through the throttle blade, and the idle air control motor (IAC) controls the rest of the air. When there is carbon buildup around the throttle plate area, the air flow around the throttle blade is reduced or eliminated. During cruising, the IAC may be nearly closed. If you take your foot of the pedal suddenly, the IAC will not respond fast enough, because the calibration is counting on the little bit of flow through the throttle blade. Anyway, even if this is not the problem, it doesn't cost anything to check it. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 4 03:19:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA11321; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 03:09:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA11316; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:09:17 -0500 Received: from scott.netinc.ca (pm1-23.netinc.ca [205.211.8.123]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07791 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:09:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:09:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701040309.WAA07791@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Sender: aa877@freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Scott Feaver Subject: Re: Ford Ranger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:05 PM 1/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >Any help/comment on the issue below would be greatly appreciated: > >My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it but >he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the >throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight >after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is >going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. > >AFAIK plugs/leads/dist cap etc are all in good cond. It's been into a ford >dealer and they couldn't fix it although I'm not sure how hard they >tried...... > >Any advise welcome. > >Thanks in advance > >Peter S > That could be a bad PCV valve, couldn't it? Scott From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 4 17:48:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12526; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:39:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cliff.cris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12521; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:39:01 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (cnc80550.concentric.net [206.173.118.50]) by cliff.cris.com (8.8.3/(96/11/08 1.11)) id MAA15490; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:39:00 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:39:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701041739.MAA15490@cliff.cris.com> X-Sender: adt1@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: adt1 Subject: Re: Ford Ranger Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it but >> he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the >> throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight >> after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is >> going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. In addition to the possible causes already mentioned, add a bad idle air bypass solenoid or a bad throttle position sensor. The throttle position sensor problem might not be peristent enough to set a fault code. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 4 23:57:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA15810; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:45:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from grazzt.umd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA15805; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:45:23 -0500 Received: from tiamat.umd.umich.edu (root@tiamat.umd.umich.edu [141.215.69.3]) by grazzt.umd.umich.edu (8.8.3/8.8.0) with ESMTP id SAA16939 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.111.2.20] (pm028-09.dialip.mich.net [198.111.2.20]) by tiamat.umd.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA05136 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:45:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:48:48 -0400 To: diy_efi From: sdean@umd.umich.edu (Steve Dean) Subject: Re: PORSCHE 911 Carrera MOTRONIC Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey Eric and Joao: Keep sending emails here, as I'm interested in hearing how you make out. I don't know too much about engine management systems yet, but someday I will. >On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, E. Decoux wrote: > >> My name is Eric DECOUX (e-mail : eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr) >> >> Address Porsche StarChip >> EPROM EPROM >> >> #1130 A3 ----> AB I think it is the rev limiter (right ?) >> #1951 1B ----> 19 (?) >> #1FFE 01 ----> 00 (?) >> #1FFF 08 ----> B9 (?) >> >Hi Eric, >First your conutry is not that small, I live in Portugal. >I'm not shure but usualy Electrotecnical Engineers (like myself) save the >last 2 bytes in a EPROM for something call "checksum" I belive that a >8kbytes ROM an it's last bytes are 1FFF and 1FFE so i guess you only have >to solve the other byte problem. > >Hope this helps in anything.. >Joao Carlos Silva >deec273@tom.fe.up.pt Deano sdean@umd.umich.edu http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/~sdean/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 06:22:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA16620; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:11:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from T-Rex.Minn.Net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA16615; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:11:03 -0500 Received: from Babycakes (dialup-54.Minn.Net [204.157.201.54]) by T-Rex.Minn.Net (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA11011 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:11:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199701050611.AAA11011@T-Rex.Minn.Net> From: "Robert Craig" To: Subject: RE: ford ranger Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:13:24 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it but >he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the >throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight >after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is >going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. I read about some ford trucks having problems like that after they turn their lights on. the solution is to ground the metal surrounding the lights .. for more info go to http://www.MisterFixit.com/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 09:19:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA16807; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:06:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ccnet3.ccnet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA16802; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 04:06:39 -0500 Received: (from fmlin@localhost) by ccnet3.ccnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09416 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:05:44 -0800 From: "Frank/G.speed" Message-Id: <199701050905.BAA09416@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Subject: Re: more fuel pressure To: diy_efi Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:05:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <32B97014.565A@mail.coos.or.us> from "Charles Napier" at Dec 19, 96 08:40:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 804 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Why would you want more fuel at wo throttle unless the mixture was lean > at wo throttle? You also have to have more air with that fuel. Install a > turbo and a 3 bar map sensor, larger injectors, tweak the computer and > really go. (Probably a different fuel pump also). This is a msg from few weeks back. I had wanted to ask, what is the deal with 1, 2, or 3 bar MAP sensor? Aftermarket FI systems often has this feature... -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 14:13:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA17168; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:04:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA17163; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:04:01 -0500 Received: from localhost by galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.3) with SMTP id JAA03515; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:03:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: Frank F Parker X-Sender: fparker@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu To: "Frank/G.speed" cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: more fuel pressure In-Reply-To: <199701050905.BAA09416@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > This is a msg from few weeks back. I had wanted to ask, what is the deal > with 1, 2, or 3 bar MAP sensor? Aftermarket FI systems often has this > feature... > > -- > Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei Frank, 1 bar is 1 atmosphere or 14.7 #. Thus a 1 bar sensor is used for naturally aspirated engine while a turbo up to about 15 psi uses a 2 bar and over 15 psi use a 3 bar sensor. Frank Parker From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 19:47:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA17676; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:37:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA17671; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:37:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial69.voyager.net [207.74.103.69]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id OAA02183 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:36:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D03E55.44B2@voyager.net> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:50:45 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: HALTECH F7 and F3 information needed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have just picked up a Haltech model F7 and an F3 programmable EFI unit and I do not have any information on them. I need the software disks as well as the user's manuals and wiring diagrams for the harnesses, which are rather hacked to bits and in need of reconstruction. These units were used for four cylinder operation, and I would like to adapt them to eight cylinder application. Any information concerning these systems would be greatly appreciated. I am not sure who is handling Haltech any more or if they are in business any more. BTW, the Haltech seems to be a rather simple 8 bit open loop system that is based on the 68HC11E2 chip. Parts count seems uncomplicated, with no surface mount, and is mounted on what seems to be a 2 layer board. These systems, if not in working order, look to be somewhat easy to repair. Anyone have any experience with this? -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 19:49:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA17700; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:43:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA17695; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:43:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial69.voyager.net [207.74.103.69]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id OAA02990 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:42:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D03FBB.25DD@voyager.net> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:56:43 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Wanted: TPI plenum, runners, manifold, injectors, and fuel rail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I want to purchase a TPI system for a chevy small-block, MY 1985 or 1986 is preferrable. The system needs the throttle plates, runners, plenum, manifold, stock injectors, fuel rails, and a stock pressure regulator. For use with one of the Haltech systems from my last post. - Dan. ws6transam@voyager.net Lansing, MI From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 20:32:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA17878; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:23:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from newman.cris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17873; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:23:55 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (cnc80521.concentric.net [206.173.118.21]) by newman.cris.com (8.8.3/(96/11/08 1.11)) id PAA12844; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701052023.PAA12844@newman.cris.com> X-Sender: adt1@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: adt1 Subject: Re: more fuel pressure Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I had wanted to ask, what is the deal >with 1, 2, or 3 bar MAP sensor? Aftermarket FI systems often has this >feature... MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor range like that would be an issue on a boosted engine, where MAP will be higher than 1 bar. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 20:48:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA17907; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:40:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from novell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17902; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:40:15 -0500 Received: from INET-ORM-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:40:09 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:38:07 -0700 From: Brad Anesi To: quattro@coimbra.ans.net, DIY_EFI, mazda-list@inslab.uky.edu, PorscheFans-All@ioio.com, alfa-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net, italian-cars-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net, coimbra.ans.net.quattro@PAR, coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu.DIY_EFI@PAR, inslab.uky.edu.mazda-list@PAR, ioio.com.PorscheFans-All@PAR, italian-cars-digest@PAR, mailgate.wizvax.net.alfa-digest@PAR Subject: Free O-rings Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly need or use. The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. Brad From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 5 22:40:35 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA18108; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:32:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mako.frontier.gulf.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA18103; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:32:49 -0500 From: kat@monroeville.gulf.net Received: from portal.frontier.gulf.net (ricordia6.frontier.gulf.net [205.160.76.56]) by mako.frontier.gulf.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA19789 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:32:46 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:32:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199701052232.QAA19789@mako.frontier.gulf.net> X-Sender: kat@monroeville.gulf.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Free O-rings Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly >need or use. > >The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in >sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. > >Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. > >First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. > >Brad > > > > > I would like to have them thanks Frank From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 00:29:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA18326; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:14:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA18321; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:13:58 -0500 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk ([158.152.100.96]) by relay-6.mail.demon.net id aa627040; 5 Jan 97 20:36 GMT Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:31:59 +0000 To: diy_efi From: Chris Morriss Subject: Re: more fuel pressure In-Reply-To: <199701050905.BAA09416@ccnet3.ccnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.11 <5asEvod5709R6741eo9wbh3aEa> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In message <199701050905.BAA09416@ccnet3.ccnet.com>, "Frank/G.speed" writes >> Why would you want more fuel at wo throttle unless the mixture was lean >> at wo throttle? You also have to have more air with that fuel. Install a >> turbo and a 3 bar map sensor, larger injectors, tweak the computer and >> really go. (Probably a different fuel pump also). > >This is a msg from few weeks back. I had wanted to ask, what is the deal >with 1, 2, or 3 bar MAP sensor? Aftermarket FI systems often has this >feature... > If you're just running a normally aspirated engine then you'll only want a one bar sensor, 'cause you won't get a manifold pressure above atmospheric. If you run up to 15 psi boost then you'll want a two bar sensor, and if you run up to 30 psi boost (God help your engine!) then you'll need a three bar sensor. (and an engine rebuild soon i guess) Bye, -- Chris Morriss From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 01:48:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA18441; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:41:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18436; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:41:21 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA10167 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:41:15 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA23810; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:27:16 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA23810; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:27:16 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00065; Mon, 6 Jan 97 09:25:22 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701061425.AA00065@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:25:16 est To: diy_efi Subject: Forwarded: Re: Flywheel/Encoder patterns Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry Mazda, SAAB have beaten you to this idea. Take a look at SAE 890044, "SAAB Direct Ignition System and its Cold Start Performance" Andrew. From: (Mazda Ebrahimi) kleenair@ix.netcom.com:smtp Date: ## 12/21/96 05:49 ## Based on previous discussions, I think we determined that the most accurate spark system would be driven by the crankshaft pick-up sensor, with a TDC#1 reference from the camshaft sensor. In the interest of reducing sensor count, I'm interested in determining TDC#1 at top of the compression stroke without monitoring Camshaft position. The method I have in mind would be based on ionization current in the ignition system. I think there are several ignition drivers available now that can feedback this info to the processor. Is this right? If so, does anyone know any part numbers? I think by going to a waste spark system and gang fire injector firing during the first few engine rotations, we can compare the ionization currents between the two sparks for each cycle of each cylinder and determine which one represents the top of the compression stroke. Based on this determination, we can then go to sequential injector firing, and eliminate the waste spark to prolong ignition system life. Any comments on difficulties I might run into?? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 02:00:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA18466; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:52:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18461; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:52:35 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA17856; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:50:26 -0600 Message-ID: <32D07820.250B@connect.net> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 19:57:20 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: HALTECH F7 and F3 information needed References: <32D03E55.44B2@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > I have just picked up a Haltech model F7 and an F3 programmable EFI unit > and I do not have any information on them. I need the software disks > as well as the user's manuals and wiring diagrams for the harnesses, > which are rather hacked to bits and in need of reconstruction. > > These units were used for four cylinder operation, and I would like to > adapt them to eight cylinder application. > > Any information concerning these systems would be greatly appreciated. > > I am not sure who is handling Haltech any more or if they are in business > any more. > > BTW, the Haltech seems to be a rather simple 8 bit open loop system that > is based on the 68HC11E2 chip. Parts count seems uncomplicated, with no > surface mount, and is mounted on what seems to be a 2 layer board. These > systems, if not in working order, look to be somewhat easy to repair. > Anyone have any experience with this? > > -- Dan. I have a HalTech manual (no particular model number given) dated sometime in 1989. The chapters include: 1. Installation 2. Operation Main Menu Disc Storage Functions available in the sub-menu 3. Programming fuel delivery 4. Trouble shooting 5. Compatible ignition systems 6. The components in the fuel line 7. Fuel flow principals 8. Design and injector positioning 9. Principals of EFI 10. How Haltech works It doesn't have any wiring diagrams, though. Let me know if anyone wants it. I can mail it to you and you can mail it to any one else who wants to copy it. Bill Moffitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 02:01:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA18474; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:55:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA18469; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:55:40 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA18008; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:53:32 -0600 Message-ID: <32D078DA.3FD4@connect.net> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 20:00:26 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Free O-rings References: <199701052232.QAA19789@mako.frontier.gulf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi kat@monroeville.gulf.net wrote: > > >I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly > >need or use. > > > >The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in > >sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. > > > >Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. > > > >First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. > > > >Brad > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to have them > > thanks Frank If you don't need all 100 of each kind, I'll give you $5 for splitting them (50 of each kind). I would truly be grateful. Thanks, Bill Moffitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 04:01:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA18756; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:53:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA18751; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:53:09 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME ([207.146.35.132]) by mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA29997 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:52:38 +0000 X-Sender: rfpro@postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Roger Feingold Subject: Saturn cars Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:52:38 +0000 Message-ID: <19970106035237.AAA29997@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey guys (gals), Trying to figure out the ECM in the Saturn car, anybody have any success? Thanks, Roger. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 06:06:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18891; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:58:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mako.frontier.gulf.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA18886; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:58:22 -0500 From: kat@monroeville.gulf.net Received: from portal.frontier.gulf.net (ricordia6.frontier.gulf.net [205.160.76.56]) by mako.frontier.gulf.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22994 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:58:20 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:58:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199701060558.XAA22994@mako.frontier.gulf.net> X-Sender: kat@monroeville.gulf.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Free O-rings Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >kat@monroeville.gulf.net wrote: >> >> >I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly >> >need or use. >> > >> >The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in >> >sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. >> > >> >Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. >> > >> >First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. >> > >> >Brad >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I would like to have them >> >> thanks Frank > >If you don't need all 100 of each kind, I'll give you $5 for >splitting them (50 of each kind). I would truly be grateful. > >Thanks, >Bill Moffitt > > ok glad to frank From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 16:04:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA19825; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:53:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA19820; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:53:26 -0500 Received: from wmoffitt.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00908; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:51:17 -0600 Message-ID: <32D12055.502E@connect.net> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 09:55:01 -0600 From: Bill Moffitt Organization: Triad Spectrum, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Free O-rings References: <199701060558.XAA22994@mako.frontier.gulf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi kat@monroeville.gulf.net wrote: > > >kat@monroeville.gulf.net wrote: > >> > >> >I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly > >> >need or use. > >> > > >> >The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in > >> >sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. > >> > > >> >Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. > >> > > >> >First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. > >> > > >> >Brad > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I would like to have them > >> > >> thanks Frank > > > >If you don't need all 100 of each kind, I'll give you $5 for > >splitting them (50 of each kind). I would truly be grateful. > > > >Thanks, > >Bill Moffitt > > > > > ok glad to > > frank My address is: Bill Moffitt 6313 Virginia Ct. Rowlett Tx. 75088 Let me know if you need the monies before or after you ship them Thanks again, Bill -- Bill Moffitt Principal Engineer Triad Spectrum Inc. 1700 Alma Rd. Suite 305 Plano, Tx. 75075 Tel 972-881-2984 Fax 972-881-3239 http://www.connect.net/triad From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 16:48:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA19918; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:39:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sequoia by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA19913; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:39:16 -0500 Received: from tlunix.tls.mms.fr by sequoia (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA17622; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:38:24 GMT Received: by tlunix.tls.mms.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1239PM) id AA05387; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:38:23 +0100 X400-Received: by mta tlunix-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 6 Jan 1997 16:38:22 +0000 X400-Received: by mta comete-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; converted (IA5-Text); Relayed; 6 Jan 1997 16:38:17 +0000 X400-Received: by mta COMET1 in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 6 Jan 1997 17:38:08 +0000 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; converted (IA5-Text); Relayed; 6 Jan 1997 16:38:16 +0000 Date: 6 Jan 1997 16:38:16 +0000 X400-Originator: Eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr X400-Recipients: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/;80837160107991/447558@COMETE] Discarded-X400-Mts-Extensions: (43) (12) (2) (135) (115) (5) (6) (3) From: DECOUX To: DIY_EFI Subject: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic Importance: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential Autoforwarded: FALSE Message-Id: <"C61IQO3SF11*/DD.XMRROUTE=DECOUX(a)COMETE(a)A1/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/"@MHS> Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (6), (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (1) Content-Identifier: C61IQO3SF11 X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Todd, Thank you for your answer. You wrote: > This is a dump from an 1988-1889 carrera 3.2, I think you're off a >line, check it again and let me know. > It's possible that the 1B and the 19 are warm up stuff though, and the >1B is 1080 rpm's and the 19 is 1000 rpm's. >01910 3E 10 01 01 01 01 01 01 --2C 25 0D 0C 0D 06 06 04 >01920 06 60 0E 0E 0E 0E 0E 0E --0E 34 39 37 33 30 2F 33 >01930 33 31 3E 0A 05 02 02 10 --06 06 03 19 19 9C 20 25 >01940 1B 19 19 1B 23 23 40 48 --2C 03 10 3C 9A 1A 1A 14 >01950 2C 06 18 17 1D 32 0B 6C --8F 77 46 41 0E 00 2C 04 >01960 19 1A 1D A9 11 0F 0F 0F --2C 07 18 17 1D 27 70 06 >01970 0C BD A6 64 22 16 00 00 --3E 04 03 23 0C A9 4F 02 >01980 05 AC FF FF D9 D9 CA CA --74 74 2C 02 1D A9 A7 CA >01990 3E 14 0A 08 25 28 05 0E --03 07 04 01 01 01 01 01 >019A0 01 01 01 01 03 60 7A 79 --7D 7F 8D 8D 7C 7D 7E 7F I fear the content of my EPROM (911 Carrera 3.2 MY89 european spec) is slightly different from yours. Please find hereafter a hex dump of mine starting from the address 01900h. $A1900, 32 32 32 32 3E 0C 02 01 08 08 08 08 15 1B 0D 19 0C 6A 4F 0C 05 07 06 06 07 0D 0D 0C 0D 1A 1A 5F 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 20 1A 1A 1A 1D 1D 1D 23 2B 2E 25 1D 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 19 1C 1E 21 1D 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 1A 1D 20 23 24 1C 1B 1B 1B 19 1B 1C 1E 21 25 2A 27 23 21 21 21 1B 1B 1F 22 25 2A 2C 2A 25 21 25 25 38 3C 43 43 43 43 2F 2B 28 24 2A 2C 38 3C 45 45 45 45 38 31 2F 2F 31 36 $A1980, 43 48 4E 50 50 4E 45 3E 3A 3A 3A 3A 48 48 4E 50 50 4F 45 3F 38 38 38 38 48 48 4E 4E 4E 4E 45 3A 32 32 32 32 48 48 4E 4E 4E 4E 40 32 32 32 32 32 3E 10 02 01 01 01 01 01 10 08 1F 19 14 12 07 05 05 65 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 21 27 37 3A 36 32 33 32 31 3E 0A 05 02 02 10 06 06 03 19 19 9C 20 25 1B 19 19 1B 23 23 3F 48 2C 03 8D 1A 4F 25 14 14 2C 03 10 3C 9A 1A 1A 14 2C 06 18 18 1D 31 0C 6C As you can see, address #1951 corresponds to the value 1B which has been changed to 19 in the Starchip EPROM. This EPROM is supposed to improve (??!) a bit the engine performance, so I suppose this value is relative to an ignition advance increase at WOT. In fact I can found very similar patterns of your EPROM in mine but with different addresses : compare your EPROM content starting at #1930h and mine starting at #19D0. Please, could you give me just an info: how many load and RPM sites are used for ignition/injection mapping? Thank you again and I promise Todd, I'll take a look at your site. Read you soon. Bye and happy new year. Eric From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 17:17:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA20038; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:08:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA20033; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:08:22 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 06 Jan 1997 10:08:17 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFBB9.8E8D5850@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:08:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01BBFBB9.8E8D5850@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Ford Ranger Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:08:24 -0700 Encoding: 16 TEXT, 35 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry for the dumb question, but what's a PCV valve? Peter S ---------- From: Scott Feaver Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 8:09 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ford Ranger That could be a bad PCV valve, couldn't it? Scott begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AH1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`! ```!213H@1F]R9"!286YG97(`^P0!!8 #``X```#-!P$` M!@`*``@`& `!``8!`2" `P`.````S0`' ``0```! ```!213H@1F]R9"!286YG97(``@%Q``$` M```6`````;O[]#GE3E)%8V3Q$="S[P"J`#A;A0``'@`># $````%````4TU4 M4 `````>`!\,`0```!,```!P971E``@0`0```&4```!33U)2649/4E1(141534)154535$E/3BQ" M55172$%44T%00U9604Q613]0151%4E,M+2TM+2TM+2TM1E)/33I30T]45$9% M059%4E-%3E0Z1E))1$%9+$I!3E5!4EDP,RPQ.3DW``````(!"1 !````Q@$` M`,(!``"I`P``3%I&=6QLK __``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,#5 (`8V@*P'-E M=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@R(S#WIH96P#($1LZF<"@S03#7T*@ C/"=GB.Q>? M,C4U`H *@0VQP0M@;F@96$?D'(EOS\FS09@ M`C G_RD+)[!I9-1A>1XP2@!P=0K ', #&M >,#$Y.3<@.&@Z,#D?$$TJGR;- M5(9O+-\I"V1I>5\-P+1I0 6@=1936@'6 P MORNN=6)JIR31,M\I"U)E.4!&!;">9 ?P&I$J=R&-,S8CEZ\5P@P!))8*A50> MH2 U,LT[D&(=0!\`8F$[D!\GDQXP/]-N)P5 :70?O7\*A2G3/!\]+AO5/IT6 MP0`!1X ```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ``)?3[NP% ``@PP*'>)?3[ @NP$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``'=K[ ` end From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 17:17:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA20025; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:07:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA20020; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:07:09 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA00973; Mon, 6 Jan 97 08:56:03 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma000969; Mon, 6 Jan 97 08:55:43 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA24687 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:03:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:03:07 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701061703.JAA24687@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Saturn cars Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have been told that the ECM in the Saturn is the same one that was used in the ZR1 'vette. This may or may not be true. All I know is that I have found a few bugs in mine. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 6 18:58:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20382; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:43:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20377; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:43:38 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis0-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.68]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA00716 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:39:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199701061939.LAA00716@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: Subject: Re: Ford Ranger Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:42:50 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dumb question??? That must be one I can answer. ;-) Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve. Gives crankcase gasses a place to go. Since they are combustible, someone back in about 1964 figured out they can route the gasses through a one way valve (controlled vacuum leak) into the intake manifold or carburetor base plate, getting rid of the gasses by burning them. I guess it was really the first ancestor of emission control. -j- ---------- > From: Peter Shoebridge > To: 'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: RE: Ford Ranger > Date: Monday, January 06, 1997 9:08 AM > > Sorry for the dumb question, but what's a PCV valve? > > Peter S > > ---------- > From: Scott Feaver > Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 8:09 PM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Ford Ranger > > > That could be a bad PCV valve, couldn't it? > > > Scott > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 03:41:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA21734; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 03:35:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA21729; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:35:49 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial004h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.69]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id TAA28608 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:35:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D1C31B.6363@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 19:29:31 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic References: <"C61IQO3SF11*/DD.XMRROUTE=DECOUX(a)COMETE(a)A1/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/"@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi DECOUX wrote: > > Hi Todd, > Thank you for your answer. > > You wrote: > > $A1900, > 32 32 32 32 3E 0C 02 01 08 08 08 08 15 1B 0D 19 > 0C 6A 4F 0C 05 07 06 06 07 0D 0D 0C 0D 1A 1A 5F > 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 20 1A 1A 1A 1D 1D 1D 23 > 2B 2E 25 1D 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 19 1C 1E 21 1D > 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 1A 1D 20 23 24 1C 1B 1B 1B > 19 1B 1C 1E 21 25 2A 27 23 21 21 21 1B 1B 1F 22 > 25 2A 2C 2A 25 21 25 25 38 3C 43 43 43 43 2F 2B > 28 24 2A 2C 38 3C 45 45 45 45 38 31 2F 2F 31 36 > > As you can see, address #1951 corresponds to the value 1B > which has been changed to 19 in the Starchip EPROM. > This EPROM is supposed to improve (??!) a bit the engine > performance, so I suppose this value is relative to > an ignition advance increase at WOT. > > Please, could you give me just an info: how many load > and RPM sites are used for ignition/injection mapping? The 1B to 19 change is occurring right in the heart of the part throttle ignition map. Strange they'd say that one number in the midst of 144 in the part throttle range would give you better performance. The part throttle fuel/ignition maps are arranged in 12x12 maps. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 05:16:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA21865; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:11:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ccnet3.ccnet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA21860; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:11:37 -0500 Received: (from fmlin@localhost) by ccnet3.ccnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17539 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:10:44 -0800 From: "Frank/G.speed" Message-Id: <199701070510.VAA17539@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Subject: Re: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:10:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <32D1C31B.6363@net-quest.com> from "Todd Knighton" at Jan 6, 97 07:29:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 896 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > The 1B to 19 change is occurring right in the heart of the part > throttle ignition map. Strange they'd say that one number in the midst > of 144 in the part throttle range would give you better performance. > The part throttle fuel/ignition maps are arranged in 12x12 maps. Can someone describe a general format for fuel/ignition map? I imagine they're all similar. What exactly is 12 x 12? What a system has a high resolution maps, what are we looking at? Adjustment per 100 RPM?! Thanks... Frank, FI newbie -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 07:28:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA22108; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:22:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ccnet3.ccnet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA22103; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:22:36 -0500 Received: (from fmlin@localhost) by ccnet3.ccnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04835 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:21:43 -0800 From: "Frank/G.speed" Message-Id: <199701070721.XAA04835@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Subject: Re: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:21:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199701070510.VAA17539@ccnet3.ccnet.com> from "Frank/G.speed" at Jan 6, 97 09:10:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1272 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Can someone describe a general format for fuel/ignition map? I > imagine they're all similar. What exactly is 12 x 12? What > a system has a high resolution maps, what are we looking at? > Adjustment per 100 RPM?! Having read my own post I realize I probably didn't make the question clear. Can someone describe a general format for fuel/ignition map in ECU's used by most production cars today? I imagine they are similar. Aftermarket ECU's often boast high resolution maps, such as 16 x 16. What exactly is that? 256 "points" in the engine operating range where you can set a value? I just read the EDN article, it is very general. I didn't really learn anything. What's up with the way the author shamelessly plugging Skip and Russell school? It seemed that the article was going to get meatier than sudden it's the end of the page. Hmm... actually, I did pick up a thing or two. -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 10:29:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA22391; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:23:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA22386; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:23:21 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc6.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.6]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id DAA26568 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 03:23:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701071023.DAA26568@mail.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 03:23:15 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 23:21 1/6/97 -0800, you wrote: >Can someone describe a general format for fuel/ignition map in ECU's >used by most production cars today? I imagine they are similar. No, they are NOT similar.. BOSCH maps and equations are (for ex.) quite different from the GM method.. Jim C. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 11:29:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA22493; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:24:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sequoia by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA22488; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:24:09 -0500 Received: from tlunix.tls.mms.fr by sequoia (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA21639; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:23:32 GMT Received: by tlunix.tls.mms.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1239PM) id AA27787; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:23:17 +0100 X400-Received: by mta tlunix-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 7 Jan 1997 11:23:16 +0000 X400-Received: by mta comete-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; converted (IA5-Text); Relayed; 7 Jan 1997 11:23:13 +0000 X400-Received: by mta COMET1 in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 7 Jan 1997 12:23:03 +0000 Date: 7 Jan 1997 12:23:03 +0000 X400-Originator: Eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr X400-Recipients: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/;30322170107991/448447@COMETE] Discarded-X400-Mts-Extensions: (43) (12) (2) (135) (115) (5) (6) (3) From: "Eric DECOUX" To: DIY_EFI, lndshrk@mail.xmission.com Subject: RE : 911 Carrera Motronic Importance: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential Autoforwarded: FALSE Message-Id: <"C18IQP2O0AN*/DD.XMRROUTE=DECOUX(a)COMETE(a)A1/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/"@MHS> Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (6), (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (1) Content-Identifier: C18IQP2O0AN X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Jim, Thank you for your answer. You wrote: >>#1951 1B ----> 19 (?) (I think you mean 1941) > A singular spark advance datapoint, being retarded I fear the content of my EPROM (911 Carrera 3.2 MY89 european spec whithout catalytic exhaust) is slightly different from yours. Please find hereafter a hex dump of mine starting from the address 01900h. $A1900, 32 32 32 32 3E 0C 02 01 08 08 08 08 15 1B 0D 19 0C 6A 4F 0C 05 07 06 06 07 0D 0D 0C 0D 1A 1A 5F 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 20 1A 1A 1A 1D 1D 1D 23 2B 2E 25 1D 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 19 1C 1E 21 1D 16 12 12 12 19 19 19 1A 1D 20 23 24 1C 1B 1B 1B 19 1B 1C 1E 21 25 2A 27 23 21 21 21 1B 1B 1F 22 25 2A 2C 2A 25 21 25 25 38 3C 43 43 43 43 2F 2B 28 24 2A 2C 38 3C 45 45 45 45 38 31 2F 2F 31 36 $A1980, 43 48 4E 50 50 4E 45 3E 3A 3A 3A 3A 48 48 4E 50 50 4F 45 3F 38 38 38 38 48 48 4E 4E 4E 4E 45 3A 32 32 32 32 48 48 4E 4E 4E 4E 40 32 32 32 32 32 3E 10 02 01 01 01 01 01 10 08 1F 19 14 12 07 05 05 65 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 21 27 37 3A 36 32 33 32 31 3E 0A 05 02 02 10 06 06 03 19 19 9C 20 25 1B 19 19 1B 23 23 3F 48 2C 03 8D 1A 4F 25 14 14 2C 03 10 3C 9A 1A 1A 14 2C 06 18 18 1D 31 0C 6C As you can see, address #1951 corresponds to the value 1B which has been changed to 19 in the Starchip EPROM. This EPROM is supposed to improve (??!) a bit the engine performance, so I suppose this value is relative to an ignition advance increase at WOT. Please, could you give me just an info: how many load and RPM sites are used for ignition/injection mapping? What are the RPM values? > YUP .. the Fuel Quality Switch.. What is the position of the switch which correspond to the best fuel quality? About my Motronic learning method >WHY are you trying to reverse this so bad.. it takes YEARS, and the only >2 guys I know who have done it.. Myself and Todd Knighton! I'll say that for the moment and without any precise entry point in the EPROM content, it is the only solution I have, but may be it will change thanks to the info collected on the web. >>I have some other questions about the EPROM content. In such a Motronic, >>does the EPROM content only management data or data + the controller >>program? > Program also.. it's all in there!! Sorry but are you sure that all the pgm is in EPROM? Why using a 8051 (controler+EPROM) instead of a 8031 (controler only) in such a case. Furthermore, but may be I am not right, I think that the 8051 wiring in the Motronic allows it to access to its internal EPROM. So the Reset and Interuptions vectors (which are useful for pgm disasembling) should be located there. >The whole Vafm to Q (airflow/mass) conversion is done in some tables >in the Motronic .. if you had flowcharts of Q vs. V for both the flapper >and the Hot FILM (do NOT use hot WIRE!) sensor, I could help you redo the >tables.. they are NOT the same tables that you see .. What are from your experience the drawbacks of the hot wire sensor compared to the hot film? Anyway, I think that a hot wire sensor is far more easy to find as a second hand part. Read you soon. Bye and happy new year. Eric From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 14:56:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA22884; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:50:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA22879; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:50:41 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct1-03.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct1-03.ix.netcom.com [199.183.43.35]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA12485 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:50:38 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:50:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct1-03.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <19971794859323281@ix.netcom.com> Subject: octane booster X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much should one add to each tank? What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 16:27:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23028; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:22:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23023; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:22:21 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv3-28.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv3-28.ix.netcom.com [206.217.114.92]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA18312 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:22:18 -0800 Message-ID: <32D29B59.705D@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 10:52:09 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster References: <19971794859323281@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high > compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of > the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. > > I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much > should one add to each tank? > > What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? > > Thanks in advance. > > Samir Shah > gofast@ix.netcom.com > Stamford, CT That is a complex question to answer. Minimum octane number requirement depends on the shape of the piston top, cylinder head, cooling jackets, etc. Also, 9.5:1 is not that high. I think there are several production engines that run 9.5 or even 10:1 from the gas pump. The only problem low octane fuel poses is engine knock, not high speed misses. In fact if your octane is too high (with a weak ignition system) it can cause a miss, since the fuel is harder to ignite. One thing you may want to check is your ignition system. The higher the compression ratio, the harder it is to ignite the charge. If you can have the engine under load while checking the spark (with a timing light for instance), it will tell you if the plug you're checking was firing or not. If spark is your problem, make sure all your ignition components are good. A temporary solution might be to slightly REDUCE the plug gaps to make it easier to jump the gap, but this has adverse effects on emissions and I think low rpm / load operation. Eventually you may have to go to a better coil or if possible increasing dwell to let the coil charge slightly longer. You should be careful about increasing dwell (even if you can do it) because most factory stuff is already near the maximum value that the coil can handle. Also, did you check your fuel pressure while the problem was occuring or at idle? What does your O2 sensor read during the problem? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 16:46:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA23080; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:41:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA23075; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:41:09 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA10408 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:41:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D27B29.5499@net-quest.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 08:34:49 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster References: <19971794859323281@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high > compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of > the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. Running out of octane? that's a new one. What's really happening? at what rpm, in what gear, cold, hot, always, have you just recently done some mods? bad knock sensor? > > I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much > should one add to each tank? With only 9.5:1 pistons, too much octane would slow your burn rate down so much you'd probably lose power. > > What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? 89 would probably work o.k. with 9.5 though 91 or 93 could be setup for more advance. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 17:34:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA23202; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:28:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA23197; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:28:13 -0500 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id LAA13782 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:22:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from motgeg.geg.mot.com (motgeg.geg.mot.com [192.88.158.100]) by pobox.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id LAA02963 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:27:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from csn1.geg.mot.com by motgeg.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20598; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:20:41 -0700 Received: from [137.162.17.1] by csn1.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34839; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:27:32 -0700 Received: by gegpo1.geg.mot.com with Microsoft Mail id <32D287C7@gegpo1.geg.mot.com>; Tue, 07 Jan 97 10:28:39 MST From: Walters Chris To: "'diy_efi list'" Subject: RE: octane booster Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 10:23:00 MST Message-Id: <32D287C7@gegpo1.geg.mot.com> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high >compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most >of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. > >I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much >should one add to each tank? > >What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? If low octane gas was the problem wouldn't you have detonation over the whole rpm range? But b4 you do anything radical tank up with some racing gas and see what happens. Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 18:14:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA23305; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:07:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mamacass.sp.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23300; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:07:45 -0500 Received: from nodoubt.dpdl (nodoubt.sp.TRW.COM) by mamacass.sp.trw.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21371; Tue, 7 Jan 97 10:07:34 PST Received: by nodoubt.dpdl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA26481; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:07:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:07:33 -0800 From: scot@nodoubt.sp.trw.com (Scot O. Stockton) Message-Id: <199701071807.KAA26481@nodoubt.dpdl> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: octane booster Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 8wqaGSYhsLmiaIllC2K/vQ== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ~>Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high ~>compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most ~>of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. ~> ~>I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much ~>should one add to each tank? ~> ~>What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? ~ ~If low octane gas was the problem wouldn't you have detonation over the ~whole rpm range? But b4 you do anything radical tank up with some racing gas ~and see what happens. ~ ~ ~Snake ~no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge Scot peeks out from his cave: With the new gas I have found that adding Toluene to my gas reduces detonation. I started with a 10:1 mix of gas to toluene (118 octane using the analysis method I believe), but I have found that a quart for 10 gal 92 octane fuel is sufficient to bring the electronics loop back into operational range for casual driving conditions. What I think happened is that the new gas here w/o the octane boost moved the high rpm ignition advance required beyond the range of the electronics and I began detonating at ~4500 rpm. Bringing the octane up lowered the advance required curing detonation. Don't use xylene at home. Hi Snake! Fancy meeting you here! I'll crawl back into my cave now. L8r, -S [EFI Rat infested '39 Ford Tudor Sedan Deluxe] {Chopped, nosed, shaved, slammed and frenched - - sounds sorta like Cher or Michael, no?} From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 18:55:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA23420; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:47:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from primenet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA23415; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:46:59 -0500 Received: from ip201.fhu.primenet.com (ip201.fhu.primenet.com [198.68.41.201]) by primenet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA17902 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:46:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:46:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701071846.LAA17902@primenet.com> X-Sender: jforbes@mailhost.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: jforbes@primenet.com (J. Forbes) Subject: Newbie-intro Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Howdy, all! I just joined this list, after reading a post from John Gwynne on one of the ngs. I dont have a lot of EFI experience, just enough to get me in trouble :) but I'm in the middle of a TPI swap into a 69 Vette. The engine is an 86 iron head, with a 7730 computer, which will be wired like and initially use the PROM for a 91 Firebird 350 VIN 8 engine. I have all the plumbing in place, just have to mount the ECM and harness and see what happens. Been too busy working on the house, and playing with my new used lathe, though...and its kind of cool out in the shop. In other words, I been procrastinatin'. Does anyone want to lay odds on how far off the PROM will be, if an aftermarket performance PROM would be better, or whatever? The car is a 4 speed manual, and the PROM is for an overdrive automatic. I am installing a speed sensor, and I already made a VATs signal generator. What other surprises will I have? Also, I dont have an EGR solenoid figured out all the way. The engine was kind of what was lefover after a guy put a used 90 Vette motor into his 86 Vette, the harness had just the engine end connectors, and not all of them. For the computer end of the harness, I got a 93 Sunbird V-6 harness from a junkyard for $50 (cut off somewhere in the middle), and am splicing on all the 90 Vette engine end connectors, using the 91 Firebird shop manual as a go-by. The EGR solenoid was missing from the engine-but, as I realize all the EGR valves and solenoids and PROMS are calibrated to work together, where should I start to get a workable system, at the dealer buying 91 Firebird parts? Any comments, ideas, flames welcome :) Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 19:49:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA23511; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:44:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA23506; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:44:05 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id LAA00923 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id LAA23780; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:43:59 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster In-Reply-To: <19971794859323281@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high > compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of > the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. > > I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much > should one add to each tank? > > What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? > > Thanks in advance. > 9.5:1 doesn't sound that high at all. Where are you and do you know if the gas in your area is O2 enriched? Can you still get leaded gas? Xylene and toluene are good but methyl-t-butyl ether is better and probably cheaper. There are others that are potent but I'd have to look them up. Undergrad chemistry was a while ago. Where will you get these from? later jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 19:51:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA23531; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:50:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA23526; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:49:58 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-223-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.233]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22770 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:49:50 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970107185134.0092ab74@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 10:51:34 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: RE: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I used to run Toulene in my street driven 12.7:1 427 chevy when I used to street race. All I can say is that it worked very well, except for all the people wondering why my car had a suspitious exaust odor... I used a scientific methode to mix it, about 2 gals to 20 gals of fuel, _but_ I'm not sure how bad that is for fuel system components. Be careful, as toulene is a very bad chemical to most things in your car, paint, plastics, and your health are included. I can't really beleive that your 530 should ping, as the conmpression is not that high, I have a 1980 323i alpina, and it has that compression or better (150kmiles), and I have never had a ping when running 92 gas. What year is the your 530? Most later BMW's had knock control I thought? Sandy At 10:07 AM 1/7/97 -0800, you wrote: >~>Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high >~>compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most >~>of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. >~> >~>I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much >~>should one add to each tank? >~> >~>What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? >~ >~If low octane gas was the problem wouldn't you have detonation over the >~whole rpm range? But b4 you do anything radical tank up with some racing gas >~and see what happens. >~ >~ >~Snake >~no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge > >Scot peeks out from his cave: > >With the new gas I have found that adding Toluene to my gas reduces >detonation. I started with a 10:1 mix of gas to toluene (118 octane >using the analysis method I believe), but I have found that a quart >for 10 gal 92 octane fuel is sufficient to bring the electronics loop >back into operational range for casual driving conditions. > >What I think happened is that the new gas here w/o the octane boost >moved the high rpm ignition advance required beyond the range of the >electronics and I began detonating at ~4500 rpm. Bringing the octane >up lowered the advance required curing detonation. > >Don't use xylene at home. > >Hi Snake! Fancy meeting you here! > >I'll crawl back into my cave now. > >L8r, >-S [EFI Rat infested '39 Ford Tudor Sedan Deluxe] >{Chopped, nosed, shaved, slammed and frenched - > - sounds sorta like Cher or Michael, no?} > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 21:01:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA23778; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:55:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA23773; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:54:56 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-223-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.233]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA26941 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:54:46 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970107195632.0091c0c0@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 11:56:32 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I used to get the Toluene from a local Shell Oil distributer. Just brought in a container and pumped it out of a 55 gal drum. What came to mind was I have a nice large fuel filter... Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 21:33:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA23860; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:23:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA23854; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:23:11 -0500 Received: (from steveb@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA04018 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:24:00 +1300 (NZDT) From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199701072124.KAA04018@kcbbs.gen.nz> Subject: Re: octane booster To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:24:00 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <32D29B59.705D@ix.netcom.com> from "kleenair@ix.netcom.com" at Jan 7, 97 10:52:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Since this octane vs compression ratio thread has popped up again, I might as well drop my question into the arena. In New Zealand we have two available fuels rated 91 and 96 octane. Both are lead free and the quality of the 96 is variable to say the least. My daily clunker is an English car with 9.5:1 compression and lots of squish. It hates the 91 octane stuff (pinking under the slightest load) but is OK with the 96. I also have an early 351-W with 9.5:1 compression that is slowly being built up. The chambers are a little bit more open than the Escort so I'm not too worried about it under normal operation. But what happens when I squirt a couple of hundred horsepowers worth of Nitrous into it ? Are there any magic rules for octane margins vs nitrous ? Is the cooling effect of the nitrous sufficient ? It would seem a bit expensive to find out by experiment. BANG - rebuild engine - back off half a turn - BANG - ..... Steve. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 21:33:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA23880; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:26:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bkinis1-1.morgan.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA23875; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:54 -0500 Received: (from mail@localhost) by bkinis1-1.morgan.com (8.8.4/fw v1.22) id QAA15267 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown(144.14.62.180) by bkinis1-1.morgan.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015168; Tue Jan 7 16:26:32 1997 Received: from gentry.morgan.com (gentry.morgan.com [144.14.236.170]) by ns1.morgan.com (8.6.12/sendmail.cf.hub v1.28) with ESMTP id QAA18730 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:31 -0500 Received: (mcintyre@localhost) by gentry.morgan.com (8.6.12/sendmail.cf.client v1.04) id QAA03963 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:30 -0500 From: "David Mcintyre" Message-Id: <9701071626.ZM3960@gentry> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: James Weiler "Re: octane booster" (Jan 7, 11:43am) References: X-Face: "+aQ3#dvPw[6Ly&t%nAoptjSiR$P*gL~UT#:\lmj~&iI_%1UzuzXG:(v!#s@7H:pytomxB|]jZfMC1F*;?*XTn[3h@jf.`x{8!(!)e0(BVOny=MV{piJNFh&XR).@km; X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.1 04apr94) To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high > compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of > the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. I am willing to bet large sums of money that this is not the problem. Have you read your owner's manual. I know that BMW manuals specify the minimum octane, and it's probably 92 for your car. 9.5:1 is not that high, and you can get away with 10:1 with 93 octane in very simple engines without all the knock/retard/advance computers that your car has. I would suggest that you subscribe to the bmw-digest, and post your full list of symptoms. There are hundreds of 530 owners and mechanics that will be anxious to help you. Send administrative requests to bmw-digest-request@mailgate.wizvax.net -Dave From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 21:54:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA23941; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:49:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA23935; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:49:40 -0500 Received: from m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48485; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:49:38 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:49:38 -0600 Message-Id: <9701072149.AA48485@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi [ snip ] >Xylene and toluene are good but methyl-t-butyl ether is better and >probably cheaper. There are others that are potent but I'd have to look >them up. Undergrad chemistry was a while ago. > >Where will you get these from? >later >jw can someone enlighten someone (me) who knows nothing about octane boosters ?? Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 22:23:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA24002; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:17:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA23997; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:17:20 -0500 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id QAA02824 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:11:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from motgeg.geg.mot.com (motgeg.geg.mot.com [192.88.158.100]) by pobox.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id QAA29625 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:17:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from csn1.geg.mot.com by motgeg.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39692; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:09:53 -0700 Received: from [137.162.17.1] by csn1.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31034; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:16:44 -0700 Received: by gegpo1.geg.mot.com with Microsoft Mail id <32D2CB8E@gegpo1.geg.mot.com>; Tue, 07 Jan 97 15:17:50 MST From: Walters Chris To: "'diy_efi list'" Subject: RE: octane booster Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 15:13:00 MST Message-Id: <32D2CB8E@gegpo1.geg.mot.com> Encoding: 41 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >~>Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high >~>compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most >~>of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. >~> >~>I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much >~>should one add to each tank? >~> >~>What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? >~ >~If low octane gas was the problem wouldn't you have detonation over the >~whole rpm range? But b4 you do anything radical tank up with some racing gas >~and see what happens. > >With the new gas I have found that adding Toluene to my gas reduces >detonation. I started with a 10:1 mix of gas to toluene (118 octane >using the analysis method I believe), but I have found that a quart >for 10 gal 92 octane fuel is sufficient to bring the electronics loop >back into operational range for casual driving conditions. > >What I think happened is that the new gas here w/o the octane boost >moved the high rpm ignition advance required beyond the range of the >electronics and I began detonating at ~4500 rpm. Bringing the octane >up lowered the advance required curing detonation. > >Don't use xylene at home. Next I'll hear someone's putting hydrazine in their tank before a match race! No thanks -- I'll stick with avgas. >Hi Snake! Fancy meeting you here! cross-listed and twisted as always. . . Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 22:41:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA24047; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:35:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24042; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:35:25 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA10546; Tue, 7 Jan 97 14:24:15 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma010543; Tue, 7 Jan 97 14:23:54 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA10005 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:31:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:31:17 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701072231.OAA10005@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Toluene Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I used to run toluene in my high-compression Olds. It is eaisly available at printer supply houses as 'blanket cleaner' and costs about as much as gasoline. Get the generic grade of "toluol". See the gas_faq for a long winded discussion of octane. It is likely that most of us understand that octane is an very complex subject that is very often misunderstood, lied about, and ignored. Still, sometimes I'd like to mix up some 200 octane fuel, and run it in a turbo motor. If only to see what would happen... Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America BSP, MSCE, not yet LPE; Chevy & Hawk w/ V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@server, x1258 Santa Ana CA outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 7 22:45:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA24076; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:44:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from novell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA24071; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:44:25 -0500 Received: from INET-ORM-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:44:25 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:43:39 -0700 From: Brad Anesi To: DIY_EFI Subject: O-rings Gone Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry Guys- The O-rings were snatched up about ten minutes after I posted the message. Maybe I should have gone into business on this one . Brad From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 00:23:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24303; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:16:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA24298; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:16:47 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by gateway.aesprodata.com.au; id IAA08306; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:37:55 +0800 (WST) Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au(203.14.102.68) by gateway.aesprodata.com.au via smap (V3.1.1) id xma008304; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:37:44 +0800 Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA21618; Wed, 8 Jan 97 07:16:13 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA852740343 Wed, 08 Jan 97 08:19:03 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 97 08:19:03 Message-Id: <9700088527.AA852740343@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi We have successfully used Toluene in a mix of 1L for 5L of 96 octane leaded fuel, also gives you beautiful flames out the back and that nice crisp popping sound when you back off. But to find out if it is an octane problem, get a tank of avgas (100 octane) if this doesn't fix the problem, its not an octane problem. However, if it does fix it, it is definitely cheaper to buy Toluene and mix your own. Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: octane booster Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 1/8/97 12:39 AM Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much should one add to each tank? What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 00:26:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24316; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:22:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gateway.aesprodata.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA24311; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:22:47 -0500 From: dzorde@aesprodata.com.au Received: by gateway.aesprodata.com.au; id IAA08387; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:43:55 +0800 (WST) Received: from guardian.aesprodata.com.au(203.14.102.68) by gateway.aesprodata.com.au via smap (V3.1.1) id xma008384; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:43:50 +0800 Received: by guardian.aesprodata.com.au with UUCP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA21642; Wed, 8 Jan 97 07:22:18 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by afcperth.aesprodata.com.au id AA852740765 Wed, 08 Jan 97 08:26:05 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 97 08:26:05 Message-Id: <9700088527.AA852740765@afcperth.aesprodata.com.au> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Toluene Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Frank, What's 'blanket cleaner', the reason for asking is that we buy it through a fuel depot at about AU$40 for 20L (this is in OZ), now if printer supply houses use it, it may be cheaper (I'd imagine they'd use it over here as well). Dan dzorde@aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Toluene Author: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 1/8/97 8:06 AM I used to run toluene in my high-compression Olds. It is eaisly available at printer supply houses as 'blanket cleaner' and costs about as much as gasoline. Get the generic grade of "toluol". See the gas_faq for a long winded discussion of octane. It is likely that most of us understand that octane is an very complex subject that is very often misunderstood, lied about, and ignored. Still, sometimes I'd like to mix up some 200 octane fuel, and run it in a turbo motor. If only to see what would happen... Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America BSP, MSCE, not yet LPE; Chevy & Hawk w/ V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@server, x1258 Santa Ana CA outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 00:30:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24343; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:26:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA24338; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:26:50 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id QAA24818 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25371; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:26:40 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster In-Reply-To: <9701072149.AA48485@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, tom cloud wrote: > [ snip ] > > >Xylene and toluene are good but methyl-t-butyl ether is better and > >probably cheaper. There are others that are potent but I'd have to look > >them up. Undergrad chemistry was a while ago. > > > >Where will you get these from? > >later > >jw > > can someone enlighten someone (me) who knows nothing about > octane boosters ?? > > Tom Cloud > > I'll try to remember what I can. There are several ways to boost octane. There is research octane (R) and then motor octane (M) numbers. Lets not get in to strict definitions here (cuz I can't remember them)but one gives a resistance to ignition under a light load (such as cruise) and the other is relevant to ingnition under a heavy load.(I think? maybe I should shut up and go look at my old notes before I start babling) Sometimes you might see at the gas pump (R+M)/2. This is the average of research + motor octane numbers. One gas companys 91 octane is probably not the same as another. Before I show more ignorance I'm going to find my notes at home but one more thing. Toluene and xylene are molecules very close to benzene in structure. Benzene is a very potent carcinogen so I would caution it's use. Use a carcoal filtered mask and rubber gloves. Store and deliver these in a well ventalated area. Methyl-t-butyl ether (MTBE) is not nearly as toxic. Actually I'm not sure it has much of any risks associated with it. I would use MTBE at 1 part to 100 parts gas. That should be about a 10 point boost in octane rating. Another problem with Toluene or xylene is that when they evaporate they leave a thick film. These are the gums that we see on our carbs. A carb is easy to dismantle and clean. I have no idea as to how serious a problem they would be for an injector, but I would be concerned. I used to have some MTBE and tried it in a friends car. He had a 351C with 13:1 compression and a pretty square cam. With 93 octane pump gas (~15 gallons) spiked with 350-400 ml (~coke can full) of MTBE it ran better than race gas which had an octane rating of about 115. He used this formula for the rest of the season and had no carb gumming problems. MTBE would also help out for emissions as well since it is an oxygenating agent. As all ethers are. MTBE is one of the reagents used by gas companies in there O2 enriched fuels. Anyway I'm going to refresh my brain and hopefully add to this tomorrow if you like. later jw P.S. Finnally something I can contribute to this list. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 00:49:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA24464; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:46:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA24459; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:46:51 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial18.voyager.net [207.74.103.18]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id TAA05836 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:45:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D329D7.7A2D@voyager.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 21:00:07 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Saturn ECM VS. the ZR1 ECM References: <199701071000.KAA22322@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Frank: in a word, How!? The ZR1 was a 4 valve per cylinder engine, as is the Saturn twin cam, but it has twice as many cylinders! Besides, are you talking about new Saturns? They use the J1850 bus which is a complete departure from the ALDL bus that the ZR1 probably had. Is the ZR1 sequential? It sounds too much like rumor, man. Kind of like the JATO story. (If you don't know about the JATO powered Chevy Impala, then don't ask.) Of course, it may be possible that the two vehicles use an iteration of the same basic system: It would be dumb of GM to design a completely different system from scratch each time they do a new platform. Yet, I'll bet the Saturn ECM is missing a few injector drivers, and a lot of the pertinant code needed to manage the V8. --- Cheers, -- Dan. [Owner: '84 Trans Am with OOPsed! transmission] [Owner: '97 Saturn SW2 family rocket w/ 5 speed ] From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 07:02:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA25757; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:49:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from exp22.ppp.smu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA25752; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:49:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 00:47:41 From: Rich Andrews Subject: Re: Free O-rings To: alfa-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net, Brad Anesi , coimbra.ans.net.quattro@PAR, coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu.DIY_EFI@PAR, DIY_EFI, inslab.uky.edu.mazda-list@PAR, ioio.com.PorscheFans-All@PAR, italian-cars-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net, italian-cars-digest@PAR, mailgate.wizvax.net.alfa-digest@PAR, mazda-list@inslab.uky.edu, PorscheFans-All@ioio.com, quattro@coimbra.ans.net X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi --- On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:38:07 -0700 Brad Anesi wrote: I was given a bunch of GAPI R-12 O-rings - more than I'll ever possibly need or use. The sizes are: 30 x 3, 38 x 3, 40 x 3, 42 x 3, 32 x 3.5, 33 x 3.5 - all in sealed bags of 100 - total of 13 bags. Cover my shipping costs (figure $5) and they're all yours. First e-mail with U.S.A shipping address gets them. Brad Brad, I would be more than willing to take these off of your hands!!! Give me your address and I'll send your $5. TIA, Rich Andrews 1406 Summer Dell Ct. Roanoke, TX 76262 -------------------------------------------------------- Name: Rich Andrews (jr) E-mail: Rich Andrews (jr) Date: 01/08/97 Time: 00:47:43 This message was sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage NetManage - delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 09:39:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA26032; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:34:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26027; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 04:33:49 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA09457 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:33:32 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10382; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:30:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199701080930.KAA10382@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:18:40 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi ! We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). The EFI system should have the following specifications : - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the system) - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the engine every time we want to change a parameter) We need a system that is capable of starting the engine reliably and running it at all speeds and at all throttle settings. Once this is possible fine tuning of the equivalence ratio can be done by changing the gas supply pressure for instance. We assume the biggest problem will be to get the engine idling. Can anybody point me out where I can find such a system ? Thanks in advance, Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel **************************************************************** * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * * Laboratory for Machines * * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * * University Gent * * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 12:00:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA26303; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:54:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sun1 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA26298; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:54:29 -0500 Received: from BRM.SUN1 ([192.168.44.4]) by sun1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17203; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:47:11 -0600 Received: by BRM.SUN1 with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFD28.59F3F520@BRM.SUN1>; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:54:03 -0600 Message-Id: <01BBFD28.59F3F520@BRM.SUN1> From: Bob McElroy To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: octane booster Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:54:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: gofast@ix.netcom.com[SMTP:gofast@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 8:50 AM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: octane booster Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have = high=20 compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked = most of=20 the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. _____________________ As I read this post, I came to the conclusion that the problem should = not be insufficient octane level. If octane is insufficient, the = vehicle should make a pinging or knocking noise. The problem as = described is "choking at high rpms." The last thing I would suspect is = the fuel octane rating. Several posts seemed to imply that increasing = fuel octane rating alone would solve the problem of "choking at high = rpms" and increase engine power. While I certainly don't mean to imply = that I am an expert, I would tend to disagree with the fuel octane = diagnoses. I would have to have more information before I would be comfortable to = guess at a cause. Things like: Did you make any changes whatsoever to = the engine just before the problem occurred? Under what circumstances = (light/heavy load, cold/hot engine, low/high engine speed, etc.) does = the problem occur? Has the engine been serviced/tuned (good = sparkplugs/wire, good distributor or whatever, correct timing, idle = speed/mixture etc.) recently? etc. The general condition of the engine = should be observed also: Is there excessive grease/oil/gunk somewhere = that wasn't there a couple of weeks ago? Is the air intake system free = of debris and have a clean air filter? Are any of the mechanical = linkages for the throttle or other engine components = wore/loose/missing/broken/etc? Well, it looks as if I have no magic solutions for you, just my opinion = which is worth only as much as you paid me for it. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????= ? "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity" "When everyone is in agreement, it signifies that no one thought very = hard." - Albert Einstein Bob McElroy Manufacturing Engineer Midcom, Inc. Waverly, IA ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????= ? From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 13:25:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26384; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:06:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26379; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:06:08 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv2-05.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv2-05.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.69]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA29132 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:06:04 -0800 Message-ID: <32D3BED8.678B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 07:35:52 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. References: <199701080930.KAA10382@allserv.rug.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Evert Rosseel wrote: > > Hi ! > > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural > gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an > engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). > > The EFI system should have the following specifications : > - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection > - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate > injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : > during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of > problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of > the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences > in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) > - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible > to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) > - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run > at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works > in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the > system) > - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running > (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the > engine every time we want to change a parameter) > > We need a system that is capable of starting the engine reliably and > running it at all speeds and at all throttle settings. Once this is > possible fine tuning of the equivalence ratio can be done > by changing the gas supply pressure for instance. > We assume the biggest problem will be to get the engine idling. > > Can anybody point me out where I can find such a system ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel > > **************************************************************** > * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * > * Laboratory for Machines * > * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * > * University Gent * > * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * > * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * > * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * > * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * > * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * > **************************************************************** Hi, I'm currently working on such a system. Injectors are available from Siemens or Servojet here in the US. My electronics are based on a 16 bit processor, and I can handle up to eight injectors, four ignition coils, drive by wire, transmission control, EGR control, exhaust temperature or oxygen sensor feedback and catalyst monitoring function. Currently we are finishing hardware prototype manufacturing, and software design will start soon. The only off the shelf system I know of that is suitable for your needs is probably the MOTEC system, but I have no personal experience with it. You can find their distributors on the internet. If you are interested in my system please contact me directly at: kleenair@ix.netcom.com We will consider developing custom software for your application if there is some funding available. Best Regards, Mazda Ebrahimi Development Engineer Kleenair Systems, Inc. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 14:38:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA26508; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:27:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay6.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26502; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:27:37 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: camelot.dsccc.com [192.245.102.21]) id QQbxpp19390; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA17779; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:29:52 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma017747; Wed Jan 8 08:29:36 1997 Received: from spd.dsccc.com (spdmail.spd.dsccc.com [101.25.2.34]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA03980 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:28:14 -0600 Received: from sun1004.spd.dsccc.com by spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA11391; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:30:22 -0600 Received: by sun1004.spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA20079; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:30:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:30:22 -0600 From: txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com (Terry Hartman) Message-Id: <199701081430.IAA20079@sun1004.spd.dsccc.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: Z+r3SIWVJIa5mXnxIxQ8KQ== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: "Evert Rosseel" > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural > gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an > engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). > > The EFI system should have the following specifications : > - - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection > - - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate > injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : > during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of > problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of > the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences > in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) > - - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible > to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) > - - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run > at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works > in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the > system) > - - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running > (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the > engine every time we want to change a parameter) Sounds like you -may- need to piece this type of system together. Arizona Speed & Marine has BBC Port EFI systems readily available, but may be a little lacking in the ECM/PCM area - I'm not real sure... I think that AS&M uses the Accel/DFI ECMs... The Motec PCM is probably the best (IMHO) - but is also the most expensive.... (you get what you pay for?) good luck, T. -- Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 14:58:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA26545; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:49:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA26540; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:49:44 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com [205.184.161.33]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA09292 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:49:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:49:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <1997189475646334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Repost - octane booster question - more details X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Wow! Thanks for all the responses to my earlier post (which I've included at the bottom. I think I need to be more descriptive about my car and what I've checked so far: The car is a 1977 BMW 530i. The engine was rebuilt by a hi-po mechanic before I knew anything about cars, and suffered being in storage for many years after the original car was crashed. I've recently transplanted it into another 77 body, and am now trying to make it run well. The engine probably has a total of about 30-40k miles on it. Going over the invoice for the engine build, I've discovered it has 9.5:1 pistons, and a BMW 733i cam. It was also bored out a little, and ported and polished. Stock pistons are 8.5:1, I think. The engine compression is at 150-157 psi, right at the upper limits of factory settings for a stock engine, in the BMW manual. I have recently 'rebuilt' the intake system and replaced all seals, gaskets and hoses, and put in new fuel injectors (stock). Also did a valve adjustment. Fuel filter replaced. WR8DC spark plugs (stock recommedation) at .25 gap. Fuel injection is early Bosch L-jet, without o2 sensor, knock sensor or computer controlled electrical advance. Distributor has mechanical advance, points replaced with Allison XR700 optical trigger. Stock Distb advance is 22 deg BTDC @ 1700 rpm, goes to 32 degress at 3500 rpm (I think). Fuel pressure is 32 psi at idle, 41 psi without vacuum. Stock is 2.5 psi FPR, 36 psi +- 3 psi, so I'm only a little short. Plug wires are stock, about 1.5 yrs old. Pulling each plug does cause a change in running, so all plugs are firing, at least at idle. All smog devices removed. Problems at present: With 87 octane, pings under load. With 93 octane, seems to choke and hesitate under load, at 4-4.5 rpm with stock advance. Will run upto higher rpm with more advance, but then idle and emmissions are lousy. What I've done so far: I also have a 76 530i, which runs well, so I've been moving parts back and forth. There has been no change in performance with the coil, distb, AFM, or computer from the other car, suggesting those components are working. Went back to points; no change, so allison is probably OK. Changed the spark plugs, no change. Replaced all the intake seals, no change. Tightened AFM spring - lost some power. (Need to reloosen AFM spring and try that). Earlier, I thought I might be running out of gas at higher rpms, as suggested by archives and the Alfa l-jet site (I dont have the address handy at present to give the appropriate credit), but have not been able to find a rising rate fuel pressure regulator at an affordable price. I read in a book put out by the BMW club, in an article by Jim Rowe of Metric Mechanics (BMW Enthusiasts Handbook?) that 9.0 was max p iston compression recommended for use with 2002 with pump gas, or 'you'd be buying gas at the airport'. Which is why I posted the question below, in case I had an engine that was not meant to be run with pump gas. The folks on the BMW digest have been very helpful, but they are nowhere near as technical as this group, and only a handful have any experience with the older cars. BTW, can an o2 sensor be used as a sniffer at the tailpipe? Or is the exhaust too cool by then. What if I use a 3-wire and heat it by connecting all 3 wires? Thanks again, for the space, time, and feedback. You've already made a number of very useful comments, dont know if this info provides any more insights, but I'll appreciate any further thoughts. The original post: Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much should one add to each tank? What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 15:32:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26627; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:24:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26622; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:24:08 -0500 Received: from ts2-port-14.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.200.96) by ds1.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ058860; Wed Jan 8 08:22:03 1997 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:24:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jens Stobernack To: diy_efi Subject: EDN X-Sender: jstobern@ds6.acs.ucalgary.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There is an interesting article for anyone interested in efi or data aquisition in the latest version of EDN. It's about high tech in IndyCar and Forumla 1. Jens From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:04:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26809; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:56:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26804; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:56:25 -0500 Received: from cardinal.seet.bcit.bc.ca (cardinal.seet.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.147.60]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id HAA11992 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:56:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:56:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701081556.HAA11992@aphex.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: Newbie-intro Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Jim You will probably do ok. I tested a 350 with 202 heads, headers and a 450 lift roller cam on the stock calibration. I did find I had to bump the fuel pressure a few pounds like about 55#. You can either shim the regulator spring or better just buy an adjustable reg. With a stock setup you might not have to do this. Also unless you alter the flow characteristics ie accel ram ect you don't have to alter the ve maps or wot af correction. You can alter the timing by adjusting the initial setting of the distributer. Mind you use a scan tool to make sure you stay outa knock retard. You can always buy a calpak with Vats disabled and your cal changed to specific requirements although more often then not this doesn't help your et any. Some people on this net can alter your calpak for you I suppose. You may wish to disable the egr test. Check the archives for details. Anyways the J car harness works fine when you replace some of the appropriate connectors. I also have had some probs with the small diameter distributer. The large HEI seems to work better. Well gL: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:05:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26823; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:59:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA26818; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:59:35 -0500 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.40.135.23]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA11583; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:07:05 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id am24278; 8 Jan 97 16:00 WET Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 11:00 EST From: Nass Jeff To: diy efi Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 e Message-Id: <21970108160012/0004388719DC2EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You may want to look at an IC 5460 from Intelligent Controls for dyno testing. The system is not cheap but should handle the listed requirements. They're at: Intelligent Controls, Inc. 41000 Vincenti Court Novi, Michigan 48375-1921 (810) 471-5000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ REPLY FROM: Nass Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Evert Rosseel" > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural > gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an > engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). > > The EFI system should have the following specifications : > - - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection > - - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate > injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : > during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of > problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of > the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences > in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) > - - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible > to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) > - - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run > at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works > in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the > system) > - - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running > (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the > engine every time we want to change a parameter) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:37:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA26916; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:30:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mashtun by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA26911; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:30:00 -0500 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: by mashtun (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRm2.5+GKEm1.1) id AA02192; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:34:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:34:02 -0800 Message-Id: <9701081634.AA02192@mashtun> To: diy_efi Subject: Miller Cycle X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I attended the LA auto show, and was suprised to find that Mazda has been selling a Miller Cycle supercharged V-6 in their Milenia for three years. I had not even heard of the Miller Cycle previously. The system delays intake valve closure timing, to provide backpressure to a supercharger. This then appears to provide a higher intake pressure, and more efficient intercooler operation. Higher pressure, higher temp, higher heat transfer = better volumetric efficiency for the motor. Have I got it right? I was also wondering if grinding cams to give a miller cycle is an option for modifying cars to run superchargers, as it has the effect of reducing the compression ratio, so says Mazda. They claim the equivolent of 8.0:1. Seems easier than changing pistons! paul timmerman From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:55:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27032; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:52:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from skywalker.microtec.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27027; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:52:52 -0500 Received: from demo ([204.50.81.59]) by skywalker.microtec.net with SMTP id <472235-10815>; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:52:44 -0500 X-Sender: marchil@165.87.194.251 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: marchildon@usa.net (demo) Subject: BMW Motronic 1.1 Message-Id: <97Jan8.115244-0500_est.472235-10815+830@skywalker.microtec.net> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:52:41 -0500 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all I need a crash course on the Motronic 1.1 This unit is out of a BMW 325ix 1989 Box # is 0 261 200 173 I have a dump of the eprom, and have found most of the tables i just need to know how to identify if they are for fuel, Ign, dwell, lambda and warm-up, also i would like to find the rev-limiter, how to read the service codes and how to set the service lites back to zero. Is it possible that some maps are only one line.?? Example 05F24 -> 3B 04 14 14 14 92 58 58 58 58 58 Hear is an example of one of the maps that i have found 05140 -> 27 48 62 5A 50 48 3B 10 05 05 07 08 0A 0D 0C 0D 08 09 0F 05 0C 08 0B 64 40 06 14 14 05 05 0A 42 70 70 70 70 70 70 76 76 76 76 76 76 74 74 74 74 74 74 76 76 76 76 76 76 77 77 77 77 77 77 79 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 79 79 79 79 79 79 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7B 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7C 7C 7C 7C 7C 7C 7D 85 88 88 88 88 80 84 88 88 88 88 7E 7F 80 80 80 80 80 82 81 81 81 81 86 89 8C 8C 8C 8C // Marchildon@usa.net // // Alain Marchildon // // 1984 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE Soon with Vortech supercharger "My toy // // 1989 BMW 325IX "Family car" // From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:59:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27049; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:56:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27043; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:56:20 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv1-24.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv1-24.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.56]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03669 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:56:13 -0800 Message-ID: <32D3F4C8.1249@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:26:00 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Repost - octane booster question - more details References: <1997189475646334@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Wow! Thanks for all the responses to my earlier post (which I've included at > the bottom. I think I need to be more descriptive about my car and what I've > checked so far: > > The car is a 1977 BMW 530i. The engine was rebuilt by a hi-po mechanic > before I knew anything about cars, and suffered being in storage for many > years after the original car was crashed. I've recently transplanted it into > another 77 body, and am now trying to make it run well. The engine probably > has a total of about 30-40k miles on it. > > Going over the invoice for the engine build, I've discovered it has 9.5:1 > pistons, and a BMW 733i cam. It was also bored out a little, and ported and > polished. Stock pistons are 8.5:1, I think. > > The engine compression is at 150-157 psi, right at the upper limits of > factory settings for a stock engine, in the BMW manual. I have recently > 'rebuilt' the intake system and replaced all seals, gaskets and hoses, and > put in new fuel injectors (stock). Also did a valve adjustment. Fuel filter > replaced. WR8DC spark plugs (stock recommedation) at .25 gap. Fuel injection > is early Bosch L-jet, without o2 sensor, knock sensor or computer controlled > electrical advance. Distributor has mechanical advance, points replaced with > Allison XR700 optical trigger. Stock Distb advance is 22 deg BTDC @ 1700 > rpm, goes to 32 degress at 3500 rpm (I think). Fuel pressure is 32 psi at > idle, 41 psi without vacuum. Stock is 2.5 psi FPR, 36 psi +- 3 psi, so I'm > only a little short. Plug wires are stock, about 1.5 yrs old. Pulling each > plug does cause a change in running, so all plugs are firing, at least at > idle. All smog devices removed. > > Problems at present: With 87 octane, pings under load. With 93 octane, seems > to choke and hesitate under load, at 4-4.5 rpm with stock advance. Will run > upto higher rpm with more advance, but then idle and emmissions are lousy. > > What I've done so far: I also have a 76 530i, which runs well, so I've been > moving parts back and forth. There has been no change in performance with > the coil, distb, AFM, or computer from the other car, suggesting those > components are working. Went back to points; no change, so allison is > probably OK. Changed the spark plugs, no change. Replaced all the intake > seals, no change. Tightened AFM spring - lost some power. (Need to reloosen > AFM spring and try that). > > Earlier, I thought I might be running out of gas at higher rpms, as > suggested by archives and the Alfa l-jet site (I dont have the address handy > at present to give the appropriate credit), but have not been able to find a > rising rate fuel pressure regulator at an affordable price. > > I read in a book put out by the BMW club, in an article by Jim Rowe of > Metric Mechanics (BMW Enthusiasts Handbook?) that 9.0 was max p iston > compression recommended for use with 2002 with pump gas, or 'you'd be > buying gas at the airport'. Which is why I posted the question below, in > case I had an engine that was not meant to be run with pump gas. The folks > on the BMW digest have been very helpful, but they are nowhere near as > technical as this group, and only a handful have any experience with the > older cars. > > BTW, can an o2 sensor be used as a sniffer at the tailpipe? Or is the > exhaust too cool by then. What if I use a 3-wire and heat it by connecting > all 3 wires? > > Thanks again, for the space, time, and feedback. You've already made a > number of very useful comments, dont know if this info provides any more > insights, but I'll appreciate any further thoughts. > Your best bet is to put the sensor closer to the engine. An alternative would be to use a CO / HC analyzer. I would also mount a fuel pressure gauge to monitor WHILE ITS ACTING UP. Rigging up a timing light just to check for plug firing would also be useful. Also, did you already try swapping coils between the two cars? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 16:59:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27057; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:58:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27052; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:58:30 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA05242; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:47:23 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma005235; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:47:08 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA16859 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701081654.IAA16859@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Toluene Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Printers, real ones with big presses, need printing blankets to deal with the fact that ink has to be pressed into paper. These are not things that you put on your bed, but another use of the term 'blanket'. These things can get inked up, and are sometimes cleaned with generic toluene, "toluol". Find the supplier for you local big-city newspaper. They will probably have the stuff in 55 gallon drums. In eastern Massachusetts, the supplier is POSCO on the Wilmington/ Andover line, right next to route 93. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 17:03:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27088; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:02:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27083; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:02:00 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA05270; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:50:54 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma005264; Wed, 8 Jan 97 08:50:26 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA16878 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:57:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701081657.IAA16878@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi MTBE is a known cancer causer, and is much more water soluable than many other gasoline components. The introduction of MTBE in the US gasoline supply has lead to a huge increase in the number of wells polluted, and thus shut down by, leaking gasoline storage tanks. This is a very hot issue in California, where MTBE was first introduced, and where the problem is now quite wide spread. There has been plenty of coverage in the newspapers of this issue. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 17:08:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27107; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:05:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sun1 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27102; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:05:37 -0500 Received: from BRM.SUN1 ([192.168.44.4]) by sun1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23803; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:58:19 -0600 Received: by BRM.SUN1 with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFD53.D1CFF3C0@BRM.SUN1>; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:05:12 -0600 Message-Id: <01BBFD53.D1CFF3C0@BRM.SUN1> From: Bob McElroy To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Repost - octane booster question - more details Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:05:11 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The car is a 1977 BMW 530i. The engine was rebuilt by a hi-po mechanic=20 Going over the invoice for the engine build, I've discovered it has = 9.5:1=20 pistons, and a BMW 733i cam. It was also bored out a little, and ported = and=20 polished. Stock pistons are 8.5:1, I think. The engine compression is at 150-157 psi, right at the upper limits of=20 factory settings for a stock engine, in the BMW manual. I have recently=20 replaced. WR8DC spark plugs (stock recommedation) at .25 gap. Fuel = injection=20 is early Bosch L-jet, without o2 sensor, knock sensor or computer = controlled=20 electrical advance. Distributor has mechanical advance, points replaced = with=20 Allison XR700 optical trigger. Stock Distb advance is 22 deg BTDC @ 1700 = rpm, goes to 32 degress at 3500 rpm (I think). Fuel pressure is 32 psi = at=20 Problems at present: With 87 octane, pings under load. With 93 octane, = seems=20 to choke and hesitate under load, at 4-4.5 rpm with stock advance. Will = run=20 upto higher rpm with more advance, but then idle and emmissions are = lousy. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT _____________ Now I feel more comfortable stating my opinion (remember, this is my = opinion and I am not an automotive mechanic.) I think you need to = upgrade your ignition system to take full advantage of the other = upgrades you've done. First, get a higher voltage ignition system (I'm = sorry, I don't have enough experience to recommend anything.) A spark = plug gap of 0.025 sounds small by modern standards (your post stated a = plug gap of 0.25, which is much too large for anything short of probably = a top-fuel dragster.) AFAIK, the correct gap for a GM HEI is .045, last = I checked. The size of the spark plug gap is directly related to the = amount of spark voltage your system has got. The more voltage you have, = the larger the gap can be. The larger the gap is, the quicker the flame = kernel can expand and initiate combustion. Next, adjust your advance curve to give more advance at the top end, = while not affecting low end advance settings. If you do install an = aftermarket ignition upgrade, don't mess with the advance curve until = the new ignition system is functional, otherwise you might end up = needing to adjust the advance curve again. The mechanical advance = relies entirely on springs and weights in the distributor. By replacing = the weights and springs with different weights and different spring = rates, you can control the rate of change (the slope of the advance = curve) that the ignition timing advances. When this is done, I would then try using 87 octane gas again to see if = it still pings. If it still pings, but the pinging is very slight, you = can try retarding the base ignition timing a little. If this doesn't = fix it, then you will need to use the 93 octane stuff. If the engine = pings on the 93 octane gas, you have the ignition timing too far = advanced. Back it down and slowly start increasing timing. Sorry, I = don't know of a good way to determine how far you can advance the = timing. I would suggest finding an experienced mechanic or tuner who = can hook up a temporary knock sensor to your engine to set the amount of = timing advance. Some aftermarket ignition upgrades can be used with a = knock sensor (you don't have to have an existing knock sensor. I would = highly recommend investing in a good ignition system with knock sensing = capability, if it is within your budget.) I read your post again before sending this and realized you may not be = able to upgrade the ignition separately from the fuel injection system. = I told you I don't have much practical experience, and I don't think = I've even seen a Bosch L-Jetronic fuel-injection system, let alone tried = to understand exactly what it does and controls. My advice is only = applicable if you do *not* have an integrated control system (i.e.. fuel = & ignition controlled by the same system.) If you cannot upgrade the = ignition separately, someone else will need to offer some suggestions. I hope I've been able to help out, and not completely confuse everyone. =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity" "When everyone is in agreement, it signifies that no one thought very = hard." - Albert Einstein Bob McElroy Manufacturing Engineer Midcom, Inc. Waverly, IA =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 17:29:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27194; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:26:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mamacass.sp.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27189; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:26:10 -0500 Received: from nodoubt.dpdl (nodoubt.sp.TRW.COM) by mamacass.sp.trw.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25975; Wed, 8 Jan 97 09:26:07 PST Received: by nodoubt.dpdl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13947; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 From: scot@nodoubt.sp.trw.com (Scot O. Stockton) Message-Id: <199701081726.JAA13947@nodoubt.dpdl> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: mN7ykZzsbS3S/+n/D+ovjQ== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ~From: Frank Evan Perdicaro ~MTBE is a known cancer causer, and is much more water soluable than ~many other gasoline components. ~ ~The introduction of MTBE in the US gasoline supply has lead to a ~huge increase in the number of wells polluted, and thus shut down ~by, leaking gasoline storage tanks. ~ ~This is a very hot issue in California, where MTBE was first ~introduced, and where the problem is now quite wide spread. There ~has been plenty of coverage in the newspapers of this issue. And rots the rubber right out of your older car! All Buna-N type rubber fittings in the fuel system will need to be replaced with silicone type fittings to survive. Yes, I am in SoCal. L8r, -S [EFI Rat infested '39 Ford Tudor Sedan Deluxe] {Chopped, nosed, shaved, slammed and frenched - - sounds sorta like Cher or Michael, no?} From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 17:32:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27216; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:30:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27211; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:30:23 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA21839; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:30:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701081730.KAA21839@mail.xmission.com> Received: from [172.16.2.2] by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 8 Jan 1997 17:30:17 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 10:30:53 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Cc: marchildon@usa.net Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:52 AM 1/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >I need a crash course on the Motronic 1.1 >This unit is out of a BMW 325ix 1989 Box # is 0 261 200 173 Umm.. that's Motronic 1.3, not 1.1 >I have a dump of the eprom, and have found most of the tables i just need to >know how to identify if they are for fuel, Ign, dwell, lambda and warm-up, >also i would like to find the rev-limiter, how to read the service codes and >how to set the service lites back to zero. Service codes are best read by the old accellerator pedal trick which flashes out 4 digit codes on the Check Engine lamp Service lites have NOTHING to do with the Motronic!! >Is it possible that some maps are only one line.?? Sure it is.. But WHY in Gods sake are you messing around with your Motronic unit.. EVEN if you find the maps you need, you cannot change them, because you will set a checksum fault, there are hidden checksums in the EPROM, 1 in M1.x, and THREE in M3.x To figure it all out PROPERLY will take you MONTHS Trust me.. I did it .. with help from a genius of a robotics engineer... WE know of exactly ONE other guy who really knows how these things work.. ONE.. Most of the "chip tuners" have NO clue!! You need to disassemble the thing.. You need to extract the ROM code out of the 80C515 processor (there's a GIFT, the CPU ID, took us 2 months to find it out!) Merge it with the EPROM code.. The run a dissassembler on it.. THEN you will need a DYNO, an AFR meter, and a lot of skil to tune your car in.. A "crash course" won't do here... these things were NOT designed to the tuned outside of the OEM realm.. unlike Motec, EFI, etc etc Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 18:22:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA27412; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:17:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wt09.wt.tno.nl by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA27407; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:17:09 -0500 Received: from wt3055.wt.tno.nl (wt3055.wt.tno.nl [134.221.53.180]) by wt09.wt.tno.nl (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ea010404 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:21:40 +0100 X-Sender: haas@mailhost.wt.tno.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Haas@wt.tno.nl (Joeri de Haas) Subject: Re: Miller Cycle Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:21:40 +0100 Message-Id: <18214049507766@wt.tno.nl> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi paul, I think you mis-understood the principle. Miller cycle tries to have a relativly smaller compression ratio and a larger expansion ratio. Therefore Mazda closes the inlet valve very late which allows air to be pushed back from the cylinder into the inlet manifold, which in fact shortens the compression stroke. This allows you to run a higher volumetric compression ratio which increases thermal efficiency during the expansion. The downside is that your volumetric efficiency drops enormously. Therefore you have to boost your inlet pressure to keep an acceptable power output. Hope this clarifies what you have seen. Kind regards Joeri de Haas > >I attended the LA auto show, and was suprised to find >that Mazda has been selling a Miller Cycle supercharged >V-6 in their Milenia for three years. I had not even >heard of the Miller Cycle previously. The system delays >intake valve closure timing, to provide backpressure to >a supercharger. This then appears to provide a higher >intake pressure, and more efficient intercooler operation. >Higher pressure, higher temp, higher heat transfer = better >volumetric efficiency for the motor. Have I got it right? > >I was also wondering if grinding cams to give a miller >cycle is an option for modifying cars to run superchargers, >as it has the effect of reducing the compression ratio, >so says Mazda. They claim the equivolent of 8.0:1. >Seems easier than changing pistons! > >paul timmerman > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 18:23:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA27430; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:21:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA27425; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:21:43 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28106; Wed, 8 Jan 97 10:25:47 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA19276; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:18:26 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970108121910.00691670@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 12:19:12 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: Miller Cycle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:34 AM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I attended the LA auto show, and was suprised to find >that Mazda has been selling a Miller Cycle supercharged >V-6 in their Milenia for three years. I had not even >heard of the Miller Cycle previously. The system delays >intake valve closure timing, to provide backpressure to >a supercharger. This then appears to provide a higher >intake pressure, and more efficient intercooler operation. >Higher pressure, higher temp, higher heat transfer = better >volumetric efficiency for the motor. Have I got it right? The Miller cycle works by making the intake stroke shorter than the power stroke. The idea is that in a normal engine, when the exhaust valve opens at the end of the power stroke, there is still pressure (energy) left from the combustion process. Instead of opening the valve and releasing the pressure, if you could make the power stroke longer you could make use of that pressure. Well, you can't really make the power stroke longer, but you can make the intake stroke shorter. Do that by either closing the intake valve before the piston finishes the intake stroke, cutting off the amount of fuel it sucks in, or closing it partway through the compression stroke, so that some of the mixture is pushed back out of the cylinder. That lowers the peak pressure in the cylinder, and means that when the exhaust valve opens the pressure in the cylinder is closer to ambient. You make less power now, because you are burning less gas, but you make it more efficiently. Add a supercharger to force more gas into the short intake stroke, and you end up making the same original power only more efficiently. You have 2 compression ratios, say an 8:1 compression ratio, and a 10:1 decompression ratio on the power stroke. Closing the intake early causes you to pull a slight vacuum in the cylinder, which is inefficient. Closing it late causes really strange flow patters in the manifold. I think calibrating the injectors for a Miller cycle engine would be "interesting". --steve > >I was also wondering if grinding cams to give a miller >cycle is an option for modifying cars to run superchargers, >as it has the effect of reducing the compression ratio, >so says Mazda. They claim the equivolent of 8.0:1. >Seems easier than changing pistons! It certainly does. What are the practical issues involved in converting an engine to a Miller cycle? > >paul timmerman > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 18:43:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA27474; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:36:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from phem3 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA27469; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:36:05 -0500 Received: from SIVM.SI.EDU (MAILER@SIVM) by phem3.acs.ohio-state.edu (PMDF V4.2-13 #5888) id <01IDZ0BZRIK08WWIVY@phem3.acs.ohio-state.edu>; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:36:01 EST Received: from SIVM (NJE origin TGOODING@SIVM) by SIVM.SI.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2453; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:35:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:34:32 -0500 (EST) From: tim gooding Subject: mtbe, hc05 To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <01IDZ0BZRIK28WWIVY@phem3.acs.ohio-state.edu> X-Envelope-to: DIY_EFI@COULOMB.ENG.OHIO-STATE.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all- Our team runs the WERA National Endurance series on a Yamaha YZF 600. We've never had pre-ignition problems with the stock black box, and ~12.5:1 static compression ratio. We use 93 pump gas because its cheap(you burn a lot of gas endurance racing). I am curious if this mtbe stuff from the octane boost thread can give you a measureable power increase because it is "oxygenated". Powermist sells something for $16ish a gallon which is not practical here. If this stuff causes cancer, is it the sort of thing where you shouldn't be in the same county, or use gloves and a respirator when rejetting, or what? On another topic, I'm curious about using a Motorola 68hc05 chip in a programmable ignition. Should I look at the hc11 or the 332 instead? The hc05 has input and output capture and compare features that seem useful, but that chip doesn't show up in automotive discussions. Tim Gooding MinFab AOD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 19:24:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27588; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:15:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27583; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:15:21 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA18144 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:12:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D3F0C8.3E0@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:08:56 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EDN References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jens Stobernack wrote: > > There is an interesting article for anyone interested in efi or > data aquisition in the latest version of EDN. It's about high tech in > IndyCar and Forumla 1. > > Jens What's EDN? Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 19:30:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27606; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:24:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27601; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:24:41 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial003h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.68]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA18483 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:21:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D3F2F9.84E@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:18:17 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 References: <199701081730.KAA21839@mail.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Land Shark wrote: > > At 11:52 AM 1/8/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >I need a crash course on the Motronic 1.1 > >This unit is out of a BMW 325ix 1989 Box # is 0 261 200 173 > > Umm.. that's Motronic 1.3, not 1.1 > > >I have a dump of the eprom, and have found most of the tables i just need to > >know how to identify if they are for fuel, Ign, dwell, lambda and warm-up, > >also i would like to find the rev-limiter, how to read the service codes and > >how to set the service lites back to zero. > > Service codes are best read by the old accellerator pedal trick > which flashes out 4 digit codes on the Check Engine lamp > > Service lites have NOTHING to do with the Motronic!! > > >Is it possible that some maps are only one line.?? > > Sure it is.. > > But WHY in Gods sake are you messing around with your Motronic > unit.. EVEN if you find the maps you need, you cannot change > them, because you will set a checksum fault, there are hidden > checksums in the EPROM, 1 in M1.x, and THREE in M3.x > > To figure it all out PROPERLY will take you MONTHS > > Trust me.. I did it .. with help from a genius of a robotics > engineer... WE know of exactly ONE other guy who really knows > how these things work.. ONE.. > > Most of the "chip tuners" have NO clue!! > > You need to disassemble the thing.. > > You need to extract the ROM code out of the 80C515 processor > (there's a GIFT, the CPU ID, took us 2 months to find it out!) > > Merge it with the EPROM code.. > > The run a dissassembler on it.. > > THEN you will need a DYNO, an AFR meter, and a lot of skil > to tune your car in.. > > A "crash course" won't do here... these things were NOT designed > to the tuned outside of the OEM realm.. unlike Motec, EFI, etc etc > > Jim Hear, hear. Or is it Here, Here. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering. P.S. the other guy that knows these things. Besides. Why would we want to give you the information that's taken us months and years to figure out ourselves? From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 19:31:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27624; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:27:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailout01.btx.dtag.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27619; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:27:06 -0500 Received: from ermail00.btx.dtag.de ([172.16.35.1]) by mailout01.btx.dtag.de with smtp (S3.1.29.1) id ; Wed, 8 Jan 97 19:56 MET Received: by ermail00.btx.dtag.de with (S3.1.29.1) id ; Wed, 8 Jan 97 19:56 MET Message-Id: Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 17:54 +0100 From: Felix.Homburg@t-online.de (Felix Homburg) X-Sender: 02315310608-0001@t-online.de (Felix Homburg) Subject: Bosch ECU To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I'm looking for a list of all the availabe Bosch ECUs. I'd like to know what their possibilities are and in what cars they are used at the moment. Can anybody help me in that case or give me a hint where I can get that information? Is there any literature just about Bosch ECUs available? Can anybody give me a recommondation what's worth to buy? Thanks a lot in advance... Felix From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 19:38:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA27668; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:34:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA27663; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:34:08 -0500 Received: from maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca (maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.98.68]) by quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA34108 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:34:08 -0700 Received: from gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.98.10]) by maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca (8.8.4/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA52220 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:34:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:34:03 -0700 (MST) From: Matthew Beaubien X-Sender: mbeaubie@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca To: diy_efi Subject: octane booster In-Reply-To: <199701081000.KAA26073@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > We have successfully used Toluene in a mix of 1L for 5L of 96 octane > leaded fuel, also gives you beautiful flames out the back and that > nice crisp popping sound when you back off. But to find out if it is > an octane problem, get a tank of avgas (100 octane) if this doesn't > fix the problem, its not an octane problem. However, if it does fix > it, it is definitely cheaper to buy Toluene and mix your own. 20% concentration is pretty high from what I've heard. I've been told that tolulene burns quite a bit hotter than gasoline so you don't want to add too much. I also think that it burns slower. Perhaps %5 tolulene and 5% methanol would be good? Methanol has about the same combustion speed as gasoline and it has a very high octane. Then there's M85 which already has gasoline, methanol, xylene, tolulene, benzene etc... One that note, I just read an SAE article on Ford's Flex Fuel Vehicle (Taurus). When they ran it on M85, they had severe preignition problems. They ended up redesigning the cylinder head (removed some squish to promote flame propagation). I was quite surprised. Matt. mbeaubie@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 20:06:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA27830; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:01:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA27825; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:01:53 -0500 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id VAA25669; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:01:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from bond.nexus.se(146.75.32.1) by valle.nexus.se via smap (3.2) id xma025667; Wed, 8 Jan 97 21:01:19 +0100 Received: from sputnic.jrt.se (sputnic.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.4]) by bond.nexus.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14872 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:01:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from dino.Jrt.SE (dino.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.2]) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA08031 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:01:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199701082101.WAA08031@sputnic.jrt.se> X-MAPI-MessageClass: IPM Priority: Normal To: diy_efi X-Mailer: FTP Software Internet Mail 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Johan Rodling Subject: RE:hc05 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:01:36 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>Reply to your message of 1997-01-08 21:40 Tim Gooding wrote: [snip] >>On another topic, I'm curious about using a Motorola 68hc05 chip in a >>programmable ignition. Should I look at the hc11 or the 332 instead? The >>hc05 has input and output capture and compare features that seem useful, >>but that chip doesn't show up in automotive discussions. >>=20 I think that you should go for the HC11 or the HC332 mainly becaus there ar= e a lot of good C-compilers for those CPU's. The best comersial C-compiler = for the HC11 is made by IAR in UPPSALA, SWEDEN. I for one should know since= I'm doing the beta testing of it ;-). Regarding the HC332, you can use the= GNU C and C++ compiler called gcc. This ones a freeware. Why not the HC05? Well, its to limited in memory and it can't handle extern= al RAM & PROM. Otherwise its a very nice CPU which Ive used a lot. The othe= r reason is that there are NO good C-compilers around for the HC05 due to t= he lack of stack space in the CPU. I think the stack can be 32 bytes deep o= nly! Good Luck with your chois of CPU. Any questions welcome. /JR -74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodlin= g@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 9= 0 91 =20 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 = 91 02 =20 SE-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 20:58:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28003; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:52:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA27998; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:52:50 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id MAA22911; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id MAA23131; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:52:45 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: mtbe, hc05 In-Reply-To: <01IDZ0BZRIK28WWIVY@phem3.acs.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, tim gooding wrote: > > Hi all- > > Our team runs the WERA National Endurance series on a Yamaha YZF 600. > We've never had pre-ignition problems with the stock black box, and > ~12.5:1 static compression ratio. We use 93 pump gas because its > cheap(you burn a lot of gas endurance racing). I am curious if this mtbe > stuff from the octane boost thread can give you a measureable power > increase because it is "oxygenated". Powermist sells something for > $16ish a gallon which is not practical here. If this stuff causes > cancer, is it the sort of thing where you shouldn't be in the same > county, or use gloves and a respirator when rejetting, or what? > Don't think octane gives you any more bang for you buck it will just allow you to run under a load (or part throttle) with greater ignition advance without pinging. MTBE as far as I know doesn't have any toxic side affects. It's the active ingredient in "104 octane boost". cheers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 21:24:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28049; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:18:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28044; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:18:49 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA08896; Wed, 8 Jan 97 13:07:43 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma008876; Wed, 8 Jan 97 13:07:14 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA19872 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:14:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701082114.NAA19872@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: FFV info Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Orange County, CA seems to be home to a great many of the Taurus FFV cars. I have seen dozens of them on the road, and I ride my bicycle to work! Can you provide a reference for that SAE paper? I am somewhat interested in reading more on these cars. Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America BSP, MSCE, not yet LPE; Chevy & Hawk w/ V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@server, x1258 Santa Ana CA outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 21:46:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28112; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:39:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferryman.kemet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28107; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:39:15 -0500 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com by ferryman.kemet.com (SMI-8.6/Kemet Electronics Corporation) id QAA03225; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:54:59 -0500 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9a for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1997Jan08.153555.1724.172825; Wed, 08 Jan 1997 16:38:22 -0500 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi Message-ID: <1997Jan08.153555.1724.172825@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 16:38:22 -0500 Subject: Re: EDN Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi EDN is Electronics Design News (I think). It goes by just EDN even in the "legalese" in the mag. The magazine is by Cahners. I believe their URL is www.cahners.com and www.ednmag.com. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 21:46:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28144; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:45:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mashtun by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28139; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:44:59 -0500 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: by mashtun (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRm2.5+GKEm1.1) id AA02591; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:49:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:49:02 -0800 Message-Id: <9701082149.AA02591@mashtun> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Miller Cycle X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I think calibrating the injectors for a Miller >cycle engine would be "interesting". > >- --steve I guess that EFI would be the ONLY way to go here, as CIS (mechanical) might act weird? paul t- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 21:47:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28153; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:46:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28148; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:45:55 -0500 Received: by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA12223; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:45:50 -0500 Date: 08 Jan 97 16:44:37 EST From: Rene Hjort pedersen <74714.701@CompuServe.COM> To: diy_efimail Subject: BOSCH LSM 11 O2 sensor Message-ID: <970108214436_74714.701_BHW53-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi There I have a Bosch LSM 11 O2 sensor (0 258 104 002), but I don't have any data sheets. Is there any one that can help with the output ( volt ) from this sensor ? Or know where I can get some data sheets ? Is it possible to use the PTC sensor in the sensor to determine the temperature of the exhaust gas ? Regards Rene Pedersen 74714.701@CompuServe.COM Denmark From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 8 21:59:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28211; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:55:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28206; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:55:54 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com [205.184.161.33]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA14678; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:55:49 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:55:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct7-01.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI Cc: tangen@nbserv2.dseg.ti.com Cc: rmcelroy@midcom.anza.com Cc: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <199718165494292@ix.netcom.com> Subject: electronic distributors X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for all the responses on the octane/ignition issue with my BMW 530i. I think I am beginning to understand my problem. Here's what I've gathered. The old 77 bmw 530i came with thermal reactor emission system. As a result, the base FI was set up to run very rich at idle, (so it could be induced to burn in the thermal reactors with the air pumped in by the air pump), and it had a really lazy distributor, that did not advance very far (32 deg @ 3500 rpm, 22 deg at 1700 rpm). With all my emmisions crap off, and the higher compression, I need to run this thing with more advance. Also, I've been told that BMW piston ratings were optimistic - BMW 9.5:1 is more like real- world 8.8:1, so I should be OK with 93 octane. So, thanks for all the octane enhancer stuff, but thats probably not the problem. If I set the advance to 38 degs max, lets say, then I will not be able to idle well, as the mixture, set by the computer, is too rich. I thus need to retard the timing more at idle. The short of it is I need to change my distributor curve, and, possibly, my ECU as well. The best solution, I'm told, is to use the entire FI system from a 79 528i. A used FI system will probably set me back $400-600. An alternative is to use an Euro Bosch BMW mechanical advance distributor, which has more advance. $300! Another alternative is to get someone to recurve my current distb's advance. Bob McElroy mentions this. Does anyone know/recommend where I can get this done? I live in Stamford, CT. I have access to a 79/80/81 BMW 528i electronic distributor. Can I make/buy a control unit for it that will advance timing with rpms? Or, is it possible to get a programmable aftermarket electronic distributor to manage timing advance and retard based on engine rpm input, so I can retain the injection parts of the system while adding electronic ignition control. In the meantime, I will drive with the timing light attached and fuel pressure meter attached, to see what further information I can gather. Am also building a o2 sensor led meter, as per projects page. Thanks. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 00:15:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA28468; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:59:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA28463; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:59:39 -0500 Received: from p4-29.net-link.net (p4-29 [205.217.6.223]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA12049 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:02:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199701090002.TAA12049@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 19:23:43 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: RE: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:13 PM 1/7/97 MST, you wrote: > >Next I'll hear someone's putting hydrazine in their tank before a match >race! No thanks -- I'll stick with avgas. > >>Hi Snake! Fancy meeting you here! > >cross-listed and twisted as always. . . > > >Snake >no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge > >So would I......just tell me where to buy it. My local aviation facility now requies an "N" number (aircraft ID) before purchase will be granted. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 00:17:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28490; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:09:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA28485; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:09:30 -0500 Received: from agtb125.cadvision.com(207.34.97.125) by ds1.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ574392; Wed Jan 8 17:07:13 1997 Message-Id: <32D4373A.5C2D@acs.ucalgary.ca> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:09:30 -0700 From: Jens Stobernack Organization: Tesco Drilling Technology X-Sender: Jens Stobernack (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: EDN X-Priority: Normal References: <32D3F0C8.3E0@net-quest.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------64E06ACE76CB0" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------------64E06ACE76CB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd Knighton wrote: > > Jens Stobernack wrote: > > > > There is an interesting article for anyone interested in efi or > > data aquisition in the latest version of EDN. It's about high tech in > > IndyCar and Forumla 1. > > > > Jens > > What's EDN? > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering Oops, EDN is one of many electronic magazines. I think it stands for electronic design news? It profiles new products and breaking news. It is free to trades people and engineers. They have a site at www.ednmag.com where I think you can subscribe to it. If you're hanging around a news stand sometime see if you can find it because the article on the high tech racing is pretty cool. BTW, are there any openings at Protomotive Engineering? Jens ------------64E06ACE76CB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Todd Knighton wrote:

> Jens Stobernack wrote:
> >
> >         There is an interesting article for anyone interested in efi or
> > data aquisition in the latest version of EDN. It's about high tech in
> > IndyCar and Forumla 1.
> >
> > Jens

> What's EDN?

> Todd Knighton
> Protomotive Engineering

Oops, EDN is one of many electronic magazines. I think it stands for electronic design news? It profiles new products and breaking news. It is free to trades people and engineers. They have a site at www.ednmag.com where I think you can subscribe to it. If you're hanging around a news stand sometime see if you can find it because the article on the high tech racing is pretty cool. BTW, are there any openings at Protomotive Engineering?
 
Jens
 
------------64E06ACE76CB0-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 00:45:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA28543; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:38:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA28538; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:38:51 -0500 From: renko@iastate.edu Received: from ns1 (ppp-25.iosys.net [207.67.20.57]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02052 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:38:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970109003643.00e4c0bc@pop-2.iastate.edu> X-Sender: renko@pop-2.iastate.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 18:36:43 -0600 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: HALTECH F7 and F3 information needed Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:50 PM 1/5/97 -0800, you wrote: >I have just picked up a Haltech model F7 and an F3 programmable EFI unit >and I do not have any information on them. I need the software disks >as well as the user's manuals and wiring diagrams for the harnesses, >which are rather hacked to bits and in need of reconstruction. > >These units were used for four cylinder operation, and I would like to >adapt them to eight cylinder application. > >Any information concerning these systems would be greatly appreciated. > >I am not sure who is handling Haltech any more or if they are in business >any more. > >BTW, the Haltech seems to be a rather simple 8 bit open loop system that >is based on the 68HC11E2 chip. Parts count seems uncomplicated, with no >surface mount, and is mounted on what seems to be a 2 layer board. These >systems, if not in working order, look to be somewhat easy to repair. >Anyone have any experience with this? > > -- Dan. > > I believe Haltech changed names to EnjecTec in the mid 90's. 2158 West Northwest Highway Suite 400 Dallas, Texas 75220 PH. 214-831-9800 Fax 214-831-9802 John Renko Helser 2631 Elwood Ames, IA. 50012-0002 (515) 296-5502 renko@iastate.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 01:34:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28639; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:31:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28634; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:30:56 -0500 From: Paul_Deaton@amat.com Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com (daemon@localhost) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA00802 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com ([152.135.210.40]) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA00798 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05 (274.9 11-27-1996)) id 8825641A.0008DFB4 ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:36:55 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMAT To: DIY_EFI Message-ID: <8825641A.00077561.00@GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:27:41 -0700 Subject: electronic distributors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have a Dodge Shelby CSX with a turbocharged 2.2l motor. I am runnning a excell supercoil to get the added umph intothe spark. The problem is that I burn up the rotor connections with the higher output. Does anyone know of a way I can adapt a "distributor-less" ignition onto my litle car? (It's not a BMW but I can run with the best of them....) Also I have been told that My fuel line pressure is suppossed to be 85lbs. Does that seem high to anyone? I run 19lbs injectors. Thinking of going up to 25's. paul Santa Clara CA. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 04:09:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA28973; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:05:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA28968; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:05:00 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial005h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.70]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id UAA17231 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:01:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D46CEC.485A@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 19:58:36 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: electronic distributors References: <199718165494292@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I've been > told that BMW piston ratings were optimistic - BMW 9.5:1 is more like real- > world 8.8:1, so I should be OK with 93 octane. So, thanks for all the octane > enhancer stuff, but thats probably not the problem. The compression ratio is usually described for an average throughout the service life of the vehicle. For example, the 1989-1994 911 carrera's are quoted as having 11.3/1 compression ratio, when they actually have 10.8/1 new. But after milling the heads for clean up during rebuilds to the service limit puts you at or above the 11.3/1 rating. > > If I set the advance to 38 degs max, lets say, then I will not be able to > idle well, as the mixture, set by the computer, is too rich. I thus need to > retard the timing more at idle. The short of it is I need to change my > distributor curve, and, possibly, my ECU as well. The best solution, I'm > told, is to use the entire FI system from a 79 528i. A used FI system will > probably set me back $400-600. > Does this car have a flapper type air flow meter, if so you can fool the thing with a small bypass around the air flow meter to get the thing to idle correctly. then, by using the idle micro switch to activate a solenoid, you can then disable the bypass at anything other than idle. If this condition only occurs at idle, or does it occur at all low flow regions? If so leave the bypass open all the time. At high flows, the bypass will be negligible and leave the a/f unaffected. > Another alternative is to get someone to recurve my current distb's advance. > Bob McElroy mentions this. Does anyone know/recommend where I can get this > done? I live in Stamford, CT. Most hot rod shops sell springs for recurving the distributors. Changing the mechanical limits of it is just a matter of bending the stop tabs in or out to change the motion of the weights. > > I have access to a 79/80/81 BMW 528i electronic distributor. Can I make/buy > a control unit for it that will advance timing with rpms? MSD sells a neat unit that you lock up the advance weights and control the advance from this little cockpit mountable gadget that will adjust advance vs. rpm's. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 05:06:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA29128; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:00:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from haven.ios.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA29118; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:59:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (mayerk@localhost) by haven.ios.com (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id XAA14808 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:59:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:59:51 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Mayer To: diy_efi Subject: RE: octane booster In-Reply-To: <199701090002.TAA12049@serv01.net-link.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > >So would I......just tell me where to buy it. My local aviation facility > now requies an "N" number (aircraft ID) before purchase will be granted. Well, you could just buy (or borrow) an airplane. Taxi over to the pumps and fill the tanks. Then taxi back to the tiedown. Of course, you'll want to drain the sumps to check for water or other contaminents. If you're not sure you have clean fuel, drain some more. Don't forget that you can't just dump the fuel on the ground, or put it back in the tank, so you'll have to put it in the jerry can. If you do this at night, you can't clearly see the fuel, so drain some more just to be sure. Now you have a full can of "contaminated" fuel that's not good enough for the airplane, so you'll just have to burn it in the Mopar. Vrrrooooooommmmmmmmm You could also take the empty can to the pumps and tell them you're building an airplane in your garage and you need the fuel to test the engine. You don't have an "N" number yet because it's not airworthy yet, and the FAA won't issue one until it is (an Airworthyness Certificate must be issued in order to get the registration). Can you tell I also drive Cessnas and Pipers? Ken :-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 06:16:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA29325; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 06:12:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA29320; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:12:26 -0500 Received: from crl6.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA26735 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:10:57 -0800 Received: by crl6.crl.com id AA28613 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:02:45 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:02:44 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 In-Reply-To: <32D3F2F9.84E@net-quest.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Todd Knighton wrote: > Land Shark wrote: > > > > Sure it is.. > > > > But WHY in Gods sake are you messing around with your Motronic > > unit.. EVEN if you find the maps you need, you cannot change > > them, because you will set a checksum fault, there are hidden > > checksums in the EPROM, 1 in M1.x, and THREE in M3.x > > > > To figure it all out PROPERLY will take you MONTHS > > > > Trust me.. I did it .. with help from a genius of a robotics > > engineer... WE know of exactly ONE other guy who really knows > > how these things work.. ONE.. > > > > Jim > > Hear, hear. Or is it Here, Here. > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering. > > P.S. the other guy that knows these things. Besides. Why would we > want to give you the information that's taken us months and years to > figure out ourselves? I don't know. Why do you two share so much info? Thanks! --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 07:06:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA29488; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:01:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA29483; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:01:14 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA11711 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:01:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:01:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970109010809_2021903802@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: electronic distributors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-08 20:49:56 EST, you write: > I have a Dodge Shelby CSX with a turbocharged 2.2l motor. Hey, it's a nice car. I tried for years to get my hands on one. Never did. Do you happen to know what it runs in the 1/4? Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 07:22:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA29599; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:18:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA29594; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:18:01 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA25287 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:17:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:17:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970109005005_644637714@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-08 12:43:22 EST, you write: > ~This is a very hot issue in California, where MTBE was first > ~introduced, and where the problem is now quite wide spread. There > ~has been plenty of coverage in the newspapers of this issue. > > And rots the rubber right out of your older car! All Buna-N type > rubber fittings in the fuel system will need to be replaced with > silicone type fittings to survive. Yes, I am in SoCal. Excuse my ignorance: Is this (MTBE) what oxygenates the fuel in Calif? I've noticed my car pinging *more* since this gas started being used year round. Yet I believe someone said this adds octane. Did I remember that wrong? Thanks, Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 07:46:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA29685; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:43:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from phantom.pix.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA29680; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:43:19 -0500 From: thor@pixie.co.za Received: from GARY (pm1-30.ncl.pix.za [196.28.139.94]) by phantom.pix.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02993 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:42:31 -0200 (GMT) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:42:31 -0200 (GMT) Message-Id: <199701091142.JAA02993@phantom.pix.za> X-Sender: pak03479@pixie.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Todd Knighton wrote: > >> Land Shark wrote: >> > >> > Sure it is.. >> > >> > But WHY in Gods sake are you messing around with your Motronic >> > unit.. EVEN if you find the maps you need, you cannot change >> > them, because you will set a checksum fault, there are hidden >> > checksums in the EPROM, 1 in M1.x, and THREE in M3.x >> > >> > To figure it all out PROPERLY will take you MONTHS >> > >> > Trust me.. I did it .. with help from a genius of a robotics >> > engineer... WE know of exactly ONE other guy who really knows >> > how these things work.. ONE.. >> > >> > Jim >> >> Hear, hear. Or is it Here, Here. >> >> Todd Knighton >> Protomotive Engineering. >> >> P.S. the other guy that knows these things. Besides. Why would we >> want to give you the information that's taken us months and years to >> figure out ourselves? > >I don't know. Why do you two share so much info? Thanks! > > --Carter > > I agree, is this forum, not to share and exchange information on EFI, I think Todd's remarks do not do justice to this group. Why belong to a group that exchanges information and ideas on a subject if your whole feeling on the matter is - 'you show me yours, but I not going to show you mine'??? Gary From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 08:04:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA29711; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:02:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA29706; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:02:31 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.48 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viFWN-0008jTC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 00:07 PST Message-ID: <32D43744.4DAB@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 00:09:47 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EFI digest Subject: Conversion to TPI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am considering converting my '84 Chevy K5 Blazer with a stock 350 and 700R4 tranny to EFI. I am considering purchasing a "complete TPI kit" from one of several suppliers. Though this seems like the easiest way to get all the nessecary parts it is also the most expensive, which lends me towards pulling a system from a bone yard. My problem is I don't know what veichle would make a good donor, I would need the complete induction system, ECM and all smog equipment(California). Any ideas? What kind of problems can I expect? Anything I should consider before starting this conversion? I would also need a recalibrated EPROM, wouldn't I? If so does anyone here have any experince with calibrating after such a conversion? When the time comes if someone could burn me a chip (or even e-mail the data dump) I would be willing to pay for your time...assuming you would be able to help with any follow up tweaking. Any advise/recomendations or tales of experince would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 08:08:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA29727; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:06:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA29722; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:06:34 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.48 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viFaK-0008jnC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 00:11 PST Message-ID: <32D43838.7E87@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 00:13:52 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EFI digest Subject: EPROM reader Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi How do you guys read EPROMS? Is it possible to make a device that would plug into a PC or Mac serial port? If it is possible to build such a devise what software would I use to support it? I have access to a burner but no reader. Thanks, Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 08:54:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA29787; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:51:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.zip.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA29782; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:51:19 -0500 Received: from forg.zip.com.au (button3.zip.com.au [203.12.97.130]) by mail.zip.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA25406 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:49:09 +1100 Message-ID: <32D4B268.32BF@zip.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 19:55:04 +1100 From: Forg X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. References: <199701080930.KAA10382@allserv.rug.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Just in answer to your question: > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Talking from a position of ultimate amatuerness, do you mean cheaply? Because, IMHO, the MoTec is the best aftermarket programmable computer, but it ain't cheap; try http://www.motec.com.au/ for their home-page. Except for some possible problem with gas that I'm not sure of, it would meet all other specs. Forg. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 09:02:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA29808; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:01:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.zip.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA29803; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:01:14 -0500 Received: from forg.zip.com.au (button3.zip.com.au [203.12.97.130]) by mail.zip.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA25945 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:58:59 +1100 Message-ID: <32D4B4B5.2BDC@zip.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:04:53 +1100 From: Forg X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: HALTECH F7 and F3 information needed References: <2.2.32.19970109003643.00e4c0bc@pop-2.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry, I don't have the original post, in order to mail directly to the posting party. Someone wrote: >I have just picked up a Haltech model F7 and an F3 programmable EFI ... >I am not sure who is handling Haltech any more or if they are in business Maybe I could be of help; as far as I know, Haltech are a Sydney (where I'm a-sittin') based company, and they're still in business. If you have any major problems getting hold of documentation, I could possibly get hold of it - email me. forg@zip.com.au Ps: If you know which country codes to use, their phone number is: (02) 9525 2400 (I don't think you dial the '0' in '02' when dialling from overseas). Forg. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 09:30:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA29839; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:26:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from adw1114a.crad.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA29834; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:26:16 -0500 Received: from [131.1.1.1] by adw1114a.crad.com.au (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua013696; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:23:21 +0000 From: Ashe@argyle.crad.com.au, Gregory To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:23:21 +0000 Message-Id: <09232180300950@crad.com.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 > > >I agree, is this forum, not to share and exchange information on EFI, I think >Todd's remarks do not do justice to this group. Why belong to a group that >exchanges information and ideas on a subject if your whole feeling on the matter >is - 'you show me yours, but I not going to show you mine'??? >Gary I disagree. Todd regularly gives invaluable support to this list with his expertise. If he feels the need to stop short of doing himself out of business then I feel that's his perogative. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 09:46:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA29858; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:41:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailout01.btx.dtag.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA29853; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:41:56 -0500 Received: from mailto00.btx.dtag.de ([172.16.2.1]) by mailout01.btx.dtag.de with smtp (S3.1.29.1) id ; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:12 MET Received: from funnel29.btx.dtag.de (0231514221-0001(btxid)@[194.25.2.30]) by mailto00.btx.dtag.de with smtp (S3.1.29.1) id ; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:12 MET Message-ID: <32D4B1EC.54E3@t-online.de> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:53:00 +0100 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: used EFI's (europe only) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 0231514221-0001@t-online.de (Peter Juergens) From: PiJay@t-online.de (Peter Juergens) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi everyone, excuse me you US, SA, Aus,... guys/gals, no offend, but tax is too high ! :) All the others, is there anyone who knows a source for used >> - aftermarket EFI's, like Haltech,.... or - standard EFI's, like VW-Digifant,...(HC11 powered ones preferred!) and - useful parts, like harnesses, flappers, injectors, sensors, ... Allthough i know that the junkyards are full of these things, i would prefere a kind of shop, because the action on our boneyards is very limited, i.e. we're not allowed to stroll around! ;-) If you have an idea, gimmi the info! TIA and BFN Pete From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 10:00:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA29883; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:55:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA29878; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:55:45 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA06591 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:55:33 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08058; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:52:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199701090952.KAA08058@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:40:40 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I just noticed I forgot to mention in my original post that the gas injectors are already available. We only need a system to control them. Also, can someone post the fax number of the firm that makes the MOTEC system, or a dealer in Europe ? Evert > Hi ! > > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural > gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an > engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). > > The EFI system should have the following specifications : > - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection > - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate > injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : > during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of > problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of > the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences > in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) > - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible > to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) > - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run > at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works > in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the > system) > - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running > (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the > engine every time we want to change a parameter) > > We need a system that is capable of starting the engine reliably and > running it at all speeds and at all throttle settings. Once this is > possible fine tuning of the equivalence ratio can be done > by changing the gas supply pressure for instance. > We assume the biggest problem will be to get the engine idling. > > Can anybody point me out where I can find such a system ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 10:01:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA29908; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:00:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailout00.btx.dtag.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA29894; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:00:07 -0500 Received: from mailto00.btx.dtag.de ([172.16.2.1]) by mailout00.btx.dtag.de with smtp (S3.1.29.1) id ; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:12 MET Received: from funnel29.btx.dtag.de (0231514221-0001(btxid)@[194.25.2.30]) by mailto00.btx.dtag.de with smtp (S3.1.29.1) id ; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:12 MET Message-ID: <32D4B143.69E8@t-online.de> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:50:29 +0100 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: BMW and the "last"on Octane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: 0231514221-0001@t-online.de (Peter Juergens) From: PiJay@t-online.de (Peter Juergens) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Folks, probably the last note on this subject ? :) Just remembered a helpful page on our triumph website. Originally its (i think) from the vette page, but heres the adress i know: http://triumph.cs.utah.edu/sol/tech/octane_b.html BTW IMHO the problem on the BMW 530 is NOT less octane. I agree a bit with Todd and some others, - check advance at 3500 you didn't do it yet , right? Maybe the advance is not 32°! - choking at higher RPM also links me to a lack of fuel, but i'm not yet fit on EFI - my tuppence here fuel pressure too low! Keep us informed about your advance... -- BFN Pete _____ 1962 TR4 daily -- - - / <> \ __,@_\____ Peter Juergens - --- '--0--'~~'--0-----0-> PiJay@t-online.de !! Only the one with the fastest toy wins !! Dortmund/Germany From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 10:49:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA00007; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:46:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rhhx02.fht-esslingen.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA29996; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:46:25 -0500 Received: from rhds11.rz.fht-esslingen.de (rhds11.rz.fht-esslingen.de [134.108.56.70]) by rhhx02.fht-esslingen.de (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA23880 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:51:05 +0100 (MET) Received: by rhds11.rz.fht-esslingen.de (5.65c8/BelWue-2.0DECbeta) id AA00827; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:44:37 +0100 From: tiw3edan@rz.fht-esslingen.de (Eduard Anna) Message-Id: <199701091044.AA00827@rhds11.rz.fht-esslingen.de> Subject: Re: ODB-II Information To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:44:36 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <32C6F82E.1E71@voyager.net> from "Daniel Burk" at Dec 29, 96 03:01:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Felix: There exist two different hardware protocols for OBD-II. > > One is a pulse-width modulated serial system and the other is a > variable-pulse-modulated system. GM and Chrysler use one system and Ford > uses the other. > > Technically, if you build a scan tool to do both protocols, the software > is the same. > > There exist Parameter IDentifier codes that are standard for scan tool > use, but the individual PID's such as injector pulse width probably > change from car to car. > > You really need a copy of SAE HS-3000, which is updated for 1996. This > is the SAE book that outlines the OBD-II protocol, inclusing the pin-out > for the connector. > > Does anybody knows a source for the SAE documents (especialy SAE HS-3000) in Germay or in Europe ? (I know the SAE-WWW-Server (www.sae.com) but I don't have a Creditcard to order it) Eduard Anna E-Mail: tiw3edan@rz.fht-esslingen.de From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 11:18:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA00049; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:14:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from phantom.pix.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA00044; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 06:14:51 -0500 From: thor@pixie.co.za Received: from GARY (pm2-16.ncl.pix.za [196.28.139.112]) by phantom.pix.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29321 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:11:18 -0200 (GMT) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:11:18 -0200 (GMT) Message-Id: <199701091511.NAA29321@phantom.pix.za> X-Sender: pak03479@pixie.co.za (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I disagree. Todd regularly gives invaluable support to this list with his expertise. If he feels the need to stop short of doing himself out of business then I feel that's his perogative. > > > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I believe, is not in the spirit of this group. Remeber, there may be someone out there who also has the requested information, and is willing to share it. Gary From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 11:54:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA00108; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:52:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailc.surrey.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA00099; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 06:52:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199701091152.GAA00099@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from cvpc42.civ.surrey.ac.uk by mailc.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:51:52 +0000 X-Sender: cvs1bl@pop.surrey.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: B.Le-Page@surrey.ac.uk (Brian Le Page) Subject: Re: PP-Warning: No Date field - one added at mailc.surrey.ac.uk Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:51:53 +0000 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 > >> >> >>I agree, is this forum, not to share and exchange information on EFI, I think >>Todd's remarks do not do justice to this group. Why belong to a group that >>exchanges information and ideas on a subject if your whole feeling on the matter >>is - 'you show me yours, but I not going to show you mine'??? > >>Gary > >I disagree. Todd regularly gives invaluable support to this list with his expertise. If he feels the need to stop short of doing himself out of business then I feel that's his perogative. > > > > I think that it was probably the wording of Todd's remarks that have given rise to this thread, not the actual content. I have only been on this list for a few days but so far I have found the content very interesting. B. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 12:13:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00179; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:11:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA00172; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:11:26 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IDZZ33789C00009H@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 06:11:23 CDT Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 19:11:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: octane booster To: diy_efi Message-id: <320264.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> This is a very hot issue in California, where MTBE was first -> introduced, and where the problem is now quite wide spread. There -> has been plenty of coverage in the newspapers of this issue. MTBE is also brutal to many rubber and plastic components, smells bad, and sufficient MTBE contamination can cause many carbureted cars to idle badly or not at all. Fortunately it's not too common in my area (Arkansas) yet, but a tankful in Oklahoma ate the fuel lines out of my Yamaha before I made it from OKC to Fort Smith. Filled the float bowls up with rubber goo. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 12:14:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00170; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:11:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA00165; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:11:21 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IDZZ2Z98DC00009H@UALR.EDU>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 06:11:18 CDT Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 19:08:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Miller Cycle To: diy_efi Message-id: <320263.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> I was also wondering if grinding cams to give a miller -> cycle is an option for modifying cars to run superchargers, You can do it without the supercharger. Crower Cams used to sell a kit about 15 years ago called the Crower Mileage System. Came with a set of 14:1 CR pistons for a small block Chevy and a cam with a long duration intake lobe, dropping the trapped CR to something like 9:1. The idea was to reduce the amount of induction charge while maintaining the original power stroke. It worked so-so, mainly due to the strong reversion pulses sending confusing signals to the carburetors of the day. Hot Rod Magazine built one of the Mileage System motors for a street rod project and didn't get much better than stock mileage out of it, but they were running an Edelbrock S.P.2.P. intake and a tiny 350CFM Holley two barrel carb. They had fuel standoff out the top of the carb due to the strong pulses, but nooo.... the editors weren't bright enough to figure they needed an intake with a big open plenum like an Offy 360 to keep the carb from going full-rich all the time. Anyway, there was nothing wrong with the basic idea, though Crower stopped selling the setup after a couple of years. Mazda just blew the dust off and re-marketed it. With a modern speed-density EFI it'd be a piece of cake. You'd have to find some way keep a MAF from being freaked by the reversion pulses, which the Mazda's blower does quite handily, come to think of it... ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 12:32:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA00216; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:25:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA00211; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:25:44 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA15058 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:25:40 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA24166; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:22:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199701091222.NAA24166@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:10:44 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Just in answer to your question: > > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > > Talking from a position of ultimate amatuerness, do you mean cheaply? I don't know how much I can spend on it yet, but anything significantly above 10000 $ is probably out of the question. > Because, IMHO, the MoTec is the best aftermarket programmable computer, > but it ain't cheap; try http://www.motec.com.au/ for their home-page. Thanks. They don't mention any prices however. > Except for some possible problem with gas that I'm not sure of, it would > meet all other specs. As we already have gas injectors (properly dimensioned for flow rate and opening delay), this should not be a major problem. Evert **************************************************************** * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * * Laboratory for Machines * * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * * University Gent * * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 14:53:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA00425; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:47:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hagar.ph.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA00420; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:47:48 -0500 Received: from m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us by hagar.ph.utexas.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51309; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:47:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:47:47 -0600 Message-Id: <9701091447.AA51309@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@hagar.ph.utexas.edu (tom cloud) Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>> P.S. the other guy that knows these things. Besides. Why would we >>> want to give you the information that's taken us months and years to >>> figure out ourselves? >> >>I don't know. Why do you two share so much info? Thanks! >> >> --Carter >> >> > >I agree, is this forum, not to share and exchange information on EFI, I think >Todd's remarks do not do justice to this group. Why belong to a group that >exchanges information and ideas on a subject if your whole feeling on the matter >is - 'you show me yours, but I not going to show you mine'??? > >Gary Lemme say that Todd has been one of the most helpful people in this group (to me, at least). He has freely shared his knowledge about many things -- lighten up !! I am thankful that there people like Todd and Mazda and .... that are so willing to share what they know. What the previous writer said was that cracking that specific ecu was a _major_ task. (One of these people actually gave out data and disassembled code on a particular ecu -- and I'm sure they'd do it again to anyone who asked nicely -- and looked like they could or would actually have a need for it). There are things that I know too, but I can't sit down and write it out over and over again each time someone new asks -- check out the archives. Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 15:32:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00629; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:25:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00624; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:25:18 -0500 Received: from crl8.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA18971 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:25:07 -0800 Received: by crl8.crl.com id AA20077 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:23:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 In-Reply-To: <9701091447.AA51309@hagar.ph.utexas.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, tom cloud wrote: > >> > >>I don't know. Why do you two share so much info? Thanks! > >> > >> --Carter > > Lemme say that Todd has been one of the most helpful people in this > group (to me, at least). He has freely shared his knowledge about > many things -- lighten up !! I am sorry if -anyone- misunderstood what I posted as some sort of criticism of two of the handful of wizards who continue to be amused by this list and who contribute their knowledge with grace. I'm grateful. --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 16:00:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00716; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:55:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00709; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:55:29 -0500 Received: from crl8.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA26481 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:55:20 -0800 Received: by crl8.crl.com id AA20161 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:40:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:40:07 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic 1.1 In-Reply-To: <09232180300950@crad.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 Ashe@argyle.crad.com.au wrote: > > I disagree. Todd regularly gives invaluable support to this list with his expertise. If he feels the need to stop short of doing himself out of business then I feel that's his perogative. How did this happen? My point, not well written, was that Todd & Land Shark and some other guys aren't sharing what they read in a car magazine but what they have learned through hard work. They're sharing valuable, maybe even a little proprietary, information--all the time. Todd's lighthearted remark about these guys not sharing the information which they have learned and which earns them a living simply falls flat in the face of the amount of time and hard data which they have generously contributed. Don't go away, guys. I am only embarrassed that I haven't helped more. How long ago did I promise something about the Alfa mechanical injection and event timing? Oh, well. --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:01:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00918; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:50:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00913; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:50:49 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA11174; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:49:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701091649.JAA11174@mail.xmission.com> Received: from [172.16.2.2] by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 1997 16:49:38 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:50:13 -0700 To: thor@pixie.co.za From: Land Shark Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Cc: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:42 AM 1/9/97 -0200, you wrote: >I agree, is this forum, not to share and exchange information on EFI, I think >Todd's remarks do not do justice to this group. Why belong to a group that >exchanges information and ideas on a subject if your whole feeling on the matter >is - 'you show me yours, but I not going to show you mine'??? Yes, this forum is to share ideas.. it is IMHO, *not* the place to try and teach someone Motronic "in a nutshell"... Bosch Motronic was NEVER designed to be tuned outside of the FACTORY Todd's remarks are right on.. if you think they are not, ask the guys on this list from FoMoCo, GM, Bosch, etc for some proprietary information and see how far you get.. I'm more than happy, as I'm sure Todd is, to help someone who's done the homework and busted his/her butt to reverse Motronic get over a hurdle or two.. But as far as handing out the keys to the candy store.. it isn't gonna happen It's a matter of "sharing" vs. "spoon feeding" Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:01:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00908; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:50:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00903; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:50:23 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-82-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.92]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA24194 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:50:11 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970109155156.00920dec@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 07:51:56 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: EPROM reader Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Their are bunches of low cost programmers that can plug into the parallel port. Look at Popular electronics Magazine you will see bunches. Sandy At 12:13 AM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >How do you guys read EPROMS? Is it possible to make a device that would >plug into a PC or Mac serial port? If it is possible to build such a >devise what software would I use to support it? I have access to a >burner but no reader. >Thanks, >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:06:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00934; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:57:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00928; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:57:41 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id KAA14177; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:57:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma014168; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:56:54 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFE1C.2D9EECB0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:59:26 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Peter Shoebridge'" Subject: RE: Ford Ranger Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:59:20 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Positive Crankcase Ventilation. This valve (normally on a valve cover) connects to the air intake at some point. At any engine speed, it draws (hopefully filtered) through the engine, thus routing any gasses caused by oil heating, blow-by, or other obnoxious non-combustion internal engine gasses to be routed through the engine intake and be further burned during the combustion process. ---------- From: Peter Shoebridge[SMTP:peter@aspenres.com] Sent: Monday, January 06, 1997 11:08 AM To: 'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu' Subject: RE: Ford Ranger Sorry for the dumb question, but what's a PCV valve? Peter S ---------- From: Scott Feaver Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 8:09 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Ford Ranger That could be a bad PCV valve, couldn't it? Scott From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:06:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00949; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:58:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00944; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:58:30 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA14994; Thu, 9 Jan 97 08:47:22 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma014991; Thu, 9 Jan 97 08:47:21 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA00757 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:54:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:54:45 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701091654.IAA00757@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The whole MTBE issue is exceedingly complex. MTBE does raise the octane number of what was known as gasoline. But, the base stock has been altered to change its properties -- the gas has been "reformulated". Plus, the viscostiy and energy density has been altered. Expect random results. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:07:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00956; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:59:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00951; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:59:25 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA13101 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:59:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701091659.JAA13101@mail.xmission.com> Received: from [172.16.2.2] by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 9 Jan 1997 16:59:14 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:59:49 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: More on BMW Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi If the original poster will follow my comments.. As in.. 1) Read out EPROM 2) Know the 8051 assembler instruction set 3) Get a disassembler 4) Start working.. I will then.. 5) Help him out.. But i believe in figuring it out for yourself I'll do the same for anyone... Oh, and Todd and I *do* share info with each other all the time, as our businesses are in NO competition (He, Porsche.. Me, BMW/etc) and working together is a big plus So, take the first few babysteps and I'll try and teach you to walk.. running is up to you after that Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:16:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01057; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:08:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01052; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:08:10 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id LAA14807; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:07:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma014799; Thu, 9 Jan 97 11:07:19 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFE1D.A2E20A10@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:09:52 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'gofast@ix.netcom.com'" Subject: RE: octane booster Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:09:46 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can you tell if your computer is directing a spark retard or if the engine is pinging? If the engine is not pinging and spark timing is normal, you probably are not suffering from low octane. Rather, I would suspect flow restrictions (exhaust, intake, or both). You might also try to increase the fuel pressure. This can help at the higher flow rates. ---------- From: gofast@ix.netcom.com[SMTP:gofast@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 8:51 AM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: octane booster Hi guys. I *think* I am running out of octane in my BMW 530i - I have high compression pistons, and the car is choking at high rpms. Have checked most of the obvious things like fuel pressure, filter, etc. I read here that xylene or Toluene is the way to get more octane. How much should one add to each tank? What is the minimum octane I would need with 9.5:1 pistons? Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:16:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01066; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:12:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01061; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:12:39 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id LAA14982; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:12:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma014973; Thu, 9 Jan 97 11:11:48 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFE1E.4337B960@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:14:21 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'jforbes@primenet.com'" Subject: RE: Newbie-intro Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:14:15 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You might find out that the engine won't run at all! Your '86 (assuming you are using all the original stuff off it) is a MAF engine, while the '91 is MAP. The best option would be to assemble the package WITHOUT the cold start enrichment injector and use the '89 PROM. ---------- From: jforbes@primenet.com[SMTP:jforbes@primenet.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 12:47 PM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Newbie-intro Howdy, all! I just joined this list, after reading a post from John Gwynne on one of the ngs. I dont have a lot of EFI experience, just enough to get me in trouble :) but I'm in the middle of a TPI swap into a 69 Vette. The engine is an 86 iron head, with a 7730 computer, which will be wired like and initially use the PROM for a 91 Firebird 350 VIN 8 engine. I have all the plumbing in place, just have to mount the ECM and harness and see what happens. Been too busy working on the house, and playing with my new used lathe, though...and its kind of cool out in the shop. In other words, I been procrastinatin'. Does anyone want to lay odds on how far off the PROM will be, if an aftermarket performance PROM would be better, or whatever? The car is a 4 speed manual, and the PROM is for an overdrive automatic. I am installing a speed sensor, and I already made a VATs signal generator. What other surprises will I have? Also, I dont have an EGR solenoid figured out all the way. The engine was kind of what was lefover after a guy put a used 90 Vette motor into his 86 Vette, the harness had just the engine end connectors, and not all of them. For the computer end of the harness, I got a 93 Sunbird V-6 harness from a junkyard for $50 (cut off somewhere in the middle), and am splicing on all the 90 Vette engine end connectors, using the 91 Firebird shop manual as a go-by. The EGR solenoid was missing from the engine-but, as I realize all the EGR valves and solenoids and PROMS are calibrated to work together, where should I start to get a workable system, at the dealer buying 91 Firebird parts? Any comments, ideas, flames welcome :) Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:20:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01093; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:17:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01088; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:17:26 -0500 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id LAA21182 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:11:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from motgeg.geg.mot.com (motgeg.geg.mot.com [192.88.158.100]) by pobox.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id LAA01067 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:16:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from csn1.geg.mot.com by motgeg.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29961; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:09:43 -0700 Received: from [137.162.17.1] by csn1.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26596; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:16:34 -0700 Received: by gegpo1.geg.mot.com with Microsoft Mail id <32D5282E@gegpo1.geg.mot.com>; Thu, 09 Jan 97 10:17:34 MST From: Walters Chris To: "'diy_efi list'" Subject: RE: octane booster Date: Thu, 09 Jan 97 10:12:00 MST Message-Id: <32D5282E@gegpo1.geg.mot.com> Encoding: 26 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >>Next I'll hear someone's putting hydrazine in their tank before a match >>race! No thanks -- I'll stick with avgas. >> >>>Hi Snake! Fancy meeting you here! >> >>cross-listed and twisted as always. . . >> >> >>Snake >>no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge >> >>So would I......just tell me where to buy it. My local aviation facility >now requies an "N" number (aircraft ID) before purchase will be granted. OK, so pluck a number off some Piper Cub **that isn't based at the facility** and use that number. They just need a number right? This should work if they don't make you show any paperwork. Call your old out-of-town college buddy and have him get some random number off a plane at the airport in his town. Learn some aircraft-speak and you should be able to "social-engineer" yourself some avgas no problem. I am called Snake for a reason. Ha! Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:33:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01126; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:29:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id MAA01121; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:29:10 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id LAA15556; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:28:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma015550; Thu, 9 Jan 97 11:28:27 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFE20.96CF30B0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:31:00 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'James Weiler'" Cc: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: mtbe, hc05 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:30:54 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Actually, according to Honda testing in the 70s, at higher RPMs, you might be better off with LOWER octane than needed to run at low RPM and under acceleration loads. The higher the RPM, the less time available for a complete burn. The higher the octane, the slower the burn. ---------- From: James Weiler[SMTP:james@brc.ubc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 1997 2:53 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: mtbe, hc05 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, tim gooding wrote: > > Hi all- > > Our team runs the WERA National Endurance series on a Yamaha YZF 600. > We've never had pre-ignition problems with the stock black box, and > ~12.5:1 static compression ratio. We use 93 pump gas because its > cheap(you burn a lot of gas endurance racing). I am curious if this mtbe > stuff from the octane boost thread can give you a measureable power > increase because it is "oxygenated". Powermist sells something for > $16ish a gallon which is not practical here. If this stuff causes > cancer, is it the sort of thing where you shouldn't be in the same > county, or use gloves and a respirator when rejetting, or what? > Don't think octane gives you any more bang for you buck it will just allow you to run under a load (or part throttle) with greater ignition advance without pinging. MTBE as far as I know doesn't have any toxic side affects. It's the active ingredient in "104 octane boost". cheers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:33:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01118; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:27:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from skywalker.microtec.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01113; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:27:08 -0500 Received: from demo ([204.50.77.53]) by skywalker.microtec.net with SMTP id <472652-10816>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:27:15 -0500 X-Sender: marchil@165.87.194.251 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: marchildon@usa.net (demo) Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Message-Id: <97Jan9.122715-0500_est.472652-10816+2262@skywalker.microtec.net> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:27:10 -0500 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Lemme say that Todd has been one of the most helpful people in this >group (to me, at least). He has freely shared his knowledge about >many things -- lighten up !! I am thankful that there people like >Todd and Mazda and .... that are so willing to share what they know. >What the previous writer said was that cracking that specific ecu >was a _major_ task. (One of these people actually gave out data >and disassembled code on a particular ecu -- and I'm sure they'd >do it again to anyone who asked nicely -- and looked like they >could or would actually have a need for it). There are things that >I know too, but I can't sit down and write it out over and over again >each time someone new asks -- check out the archives. > > >Tom Cloud I am very thankful to the people that have posted on this list and I have looked at the archives and that is why I was able to put the correct code up and also I am aware the figuring out exactly how the code works is a big task that is why I need some pointers and may be I don't need to get at the assembler source code just the tables I have a good idea at what is not going to my liking with the maps I have a part throttle stumble or should i say a lean out, this was probably put intentionally buy the engineers to have a car the is more fuel efficient on the highway but I have to shift the car at 5500 because the power only starts at 4500, I feel that the in-line 6 should pull more at a lower rpm's, and the revlimiter is set at 6250 hey it is still pulling pretty hard at that speed I was thinking more of 6750 as a limit, and the cold -10c warm-up is to rich I have some stumble like the old carburetors, I have had several fuelinjected vehicles and this one is the roughest Any way I did not want to start a war on what could be disclosed or not and on how much time it would take to get what I want. // Marchildon@usa.net // // Alain Marchildon // // 1984 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE Soon with Vortech supercharger "My toy // // 1989 BMW 325IX "Family car" // From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 17:51:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA01191; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:44:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA01186; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:44:33 -0500 Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (egate.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.138]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA25843; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:43:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from westhub.mnet.uswest.com (westhub.mnet.uswest.com [148.156.21.6]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA05682; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:43:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from cp.uswc.uswest.com (cp [151.116.143.213]) by westhub.mnet.uswest.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA17010; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:45:12 -0800 Received: from sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com by cp.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA12753; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:42:14 -0700 From: scicior@uswest.com (Steve Ciciora) Received: by sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com (5.x/uswc-solaris-client.950829) id AA26630; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:39:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:39:33 -0700 Message-Id: <9701091739.AA26630@sp5-316.uswc.uswest.com> To: thor@pixie.co.za, diy_efi Subject: Re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Cc: diy_efi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: FvCYt4I0J/pP187v0No0yw== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > I'm more than happy, as I'm sure Todd is, to help someone who's done the homework > and busted his/her butt to reverse Motronic get over a hurdle or two.. > > But as far as handing out the keys to the candy store.. it isn't gonna happen > > It's a matter of "sharing" vs. "spoon feeding" > > Jim > What I would find _very_ interesting is the procedure you went through to reverse engineer (fill in the blank). What tools did you use? What tricks? Put a logic analyser on the eprom? What road blocks did the factory people put in your way (hidden checksums)? I'll never have the time to reverse engineer everything I'd want to, but I'd love to hear how someone else did. Some people like to read detective stories, I like to read mysteries... Steven Ciciora From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 18:22:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA01227; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:06:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01222; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:06:02 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06125; Thu, 9 Jan 97 10:09:46 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA28429; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:02:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970109120242.006947ec@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 12:02:53 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:09 AM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >I am considering converting my '84 Chevy K5 Blazer with a stock 350 and >700R4 tranny to EFI. I am considering purchasing a "complete TPI kit" >from one of several suppliers. Though this seems like the easiest way to >get all the nessecary parts it is also the most expensive, which lends >me towards pulling a system from a bone yard. My problem is I don't know >what veichle would make a good donor, I would need the complete >induction system, ECM and all smog equipment(California). Any ideas? >What kind of problems can I expect? Anything I should consider before >starting this conversion? I would also need a recalibrated EPROM, >wouldn't I? If so does anyone here have any experince with calibrating >after such a conversion? When the time comes if someone could burn me a >chip (or even e-mail the data dump) I would be willing to pay for your >time...assuming you would be able to help with any follow up tweaking. >Any advise/recomendations or tales of experince would be greatly >appreciated. Hi Mike, one thing I would consider is buying a complete used engine from the wrecking yard. I just put a TBI 350 in my S-10, the engine cost me $900 from the boneyard. That is *complete*, with wiring harness, all sensors, charcoal cannister, computer, *everything*. It came from a '91 Caprice w/40,000 miles, and I put it straight in. I only replaced the rear seal and the oil pan gasket. That's less money than I've seen anyone mention for a Holley or other TBI kit, plus you have a spare engine when you are done. There's a book from a company called JTR that you might want to buy, it's all about swapping FI Chevy blocks into older non-FI GM cars. They offer a line of parts also, like VSS sensors, etc. see www.jagsthatrun.com --steve >Thanks, >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 19:07:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA01467; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:51:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01462; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:51:27 -0500 Received: from van-as-07c13.direct.ca (van-as-07c13.direct.ca [204.174.249.141]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA01672 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701091851.KAA01672@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:38:26 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Mike Said this before to the point of boring people Get a J-car computer 87-91 millions of em out there last #s are 730 on ECM broadcast stamp. While you are at it steal the harness with every sensor and transducer you can get from the J car. Go to you gm dealer and order a calpak for a 90-92 F body with a 5.7. Costs me 50$ canadian. You may also order connectors for the TPS, the IAC and a large body HEI if you are gonna use one. For a tpi I'd use the 89-92 setup since the cold start valve isn't on the manifold. The older 85 -88 are ok but there is a cold start valve that isn't working to explain to the referees Make sure you get the distributer and connector. Also you may have to drill the two center bolts on the manifold of the newer tpis to fit older chev heads, no sweat silcone works great. You will have to figure out the VSS, you might have to get a taxi transducer. In fact JTR Mike Knell sells a great book. Look it up. Summit sells it. You will also have to address VATS. Do this with 10$ of radio shack parts or a prom change. If you want to look at a calpak Jameco sells lots of programmers cheap. You will have to make a perfboard adapter to read and program the calpak. Well GL: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 19:17:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01489; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:02:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA01484; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:02:10 -0500 Received: from van-as-07c13.direct.ca (van-as-07c13.direct.ca [204.174.249.141]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA04715 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:02:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701091902.LAA04715@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:49:09 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Bell and Howell Gm CD Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Guys I was wondering if anyone on the net knows anything of the GM dealer protocol used in the Gm inhouse CDS. I have just acquired a full set with all catalogs, vehicles tsbs and ecm updates but without spending about 10K or so this stuff is useless. Anyway this is a hobby! Does anyone know about the CD protocol. Building something to read em is really not that difficuilt Thanks guys: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 20:28:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01711; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:16:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01706; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:16:50 -0500 From: Paul_Deaton@amat.com Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com (daemon@localhost) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id MAA05530 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com ([152.135.210.40]) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA05523 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05 (274.9 11-27-1996)) id 8825641A.006FF633 ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:22:55 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMAT To: diy_efi Message-ID: <8825641A.006EFA4C.00@GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:13:30 -0700 Subject: Re: electronic distributors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="0__=sBp5LUcoNFSJpNHzAPPpB08DyJQZ45a3lmetypr9OxCMJK9PXlLnCjuy" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi --0__=sBp5LUcoNFSJpNHzAPPpB08DyJQZ45a3lmetypr9OxCMJK9PXlLnCjuy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Don't know what it runs in a 1/4, but I can tell you I can beet a 5.0 mustang to 100mph.. does that help? I am a road racer. sorry. I know of several for sale if your interested. around 10K or less. (Embedded image moved Marc2365 @ aol.com to file: 01/08/97 11:01 PM PIC17425.PCX) Please respond to diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi @ coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Paul Deaton/APPLIED MATERIALS) Subject: Re: electronic distributors In a message dated 97-01-08 20:49:56 EST, you write: > I have a Dodge Shelby CSX with a turbocharged 2.2l motor. Hey, it's a nice car. I tried for years to get my hands on one. Never did. Do you happen to know what it runs in the 1/4? Marc --0__=sBp5LUcoNFSJpNHzAPPpB08DyJQZ45a3lmetypr9OxCMJK9PXlLnCjuy Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="PIC17425.PCX" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAABoACwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABaQABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sT zRPHE8MTwhPwEwzIBgzYE8wTxhPDE8IT7hPOBtcTzBPGE8MTE+wTwgbCBwbCEgbCEgbCEsUG1hPL E8YTwxMT6hMMwgYHwgLCAwISwgfEEsMCwwbVE8sTxRPDExPpE8MGAwcCBwMCwhLDB8ISwgISwgLD BtUTyhPFE8MTE+gTwgIHA8ICEw4DDgLDE8USwwLCEMIG1BPKE8UTwxMT5xMCAwcDAg4TDgITwgIS D8ISD8ISBRICEcICwwbUE8oTxRPCExPmEwYCBwMCDgIOwgLDExITEhPCEg8GxgLDBtMMDAfJE8QT whMT5hMGwwITBgMCDhLFEw8SE8ISBgIDwhIDEsMGB9MDxwwHxRPDExPlEwYHAhESAg8CwhMPwhMP xBMPxRIQwgIDAgMCBtMDxwPEDAfDE8IT4RMHwwzCBgLCEhMCDxLIE8MSD8MSwwIQAwIDBgfSDMkD wgPCDAfCExPbEwfGDMIDDAIHERITEhMSwxMPwxMPwxPDEgIDAgMCwwMCBgzREwfHDMYDDMITE9YT B8UMyAMGB8ICBhLDAsYTEhMSExIPwhIHAgcCAwUQAgYRBgfSE8UTB8QMwgMMwhMT0hMHxAzLA8IM BsISDxESExITAw4DxBMSExITwxICBwPCAsMDDMIGB9ITyRMHwwzCExPPEwfDDMkDxQwHwhMGBxIT AhECEwMOAg7DExITDxMPwxIDAgMCBwMCDAYRBgfSE8kTwhPCDMITE8wTB8MMxwPEDMIHxxMGxBLD Ag4DDgIGwg/IEgIDwgIDAgwCEMIGB9ITyRMHDAcMwhMTyhMHwgzGA8MMwgfMEwYHwhLCEAIOAg4C DhDDAhIPxhIFAgXDAgUCEQYH0hPHEwfCDAcPDMITE8gTB8IMxQPDDAfQEwbDEhDEAhAOEA4QwgLG EgcSBhIGBcMCBcIGB9ATB8UMEwfCDA8HDwwHwhMTxhMHwgzEA8MMB9MTBgfCEhADEMICDhAOEMIC EQIDxxIGBwbCAgUCEQYHyxMHxAwHwhMHEwzCEwcPBw8MB8MTE8UTBwzEA8IMB9YTBsQSEAMCA8UC EQIDAgPDEgcSBgfCBgUQAhDCBgfGEwfEDAfGE8INEwzCEw8HwgwHwxPCE8QTBwzDA8IMB9gTBgfE EhACEMYCEQIDAsQSBhLDBsICEALCBgfCEwfDDAfKEwfCDRMHwhPCDAfEE8ITE8MTBwzCA8IMB9oT DBIHwxLDDBEDxQIDAgPDEgYSBgfCBgIQAhAGDAfCEwzDE8MHyRMHwhPCBxMHxRPDExPDEwzCAwwH 3RMGxxICEQPDAgMCA8MSBhIGBwYMBhACEAIGDMMTDBPCB8YTwwfHEwfGE8MTwhPDEwwDDAfeEwYH xxICEQPDAgMCwhIGEgYHBgwGEAIQAsIGB8MTDMYTwwfKEwzGE8MTwhPDE8IMB98TDBLCB8USAgMR xAISB8ISBgcGDAYQBhAGEAYMB8MMB8kTwwfHEwzGE8MTwhPDEwwPwgzfEwYSB8ISB8ISAhECAwID EgcSBwYHBgwGEAYQxgzDD8IHxRPDB8kTBwzGE8MTwhPDEwzDD8QM3BPCBhIGwxIGAhECAwIHBgcG yAzJDxMHzRMHwwwHxxPDE8ITwxMHDMYPxwwH1BMGEgYSBhLLDM4PwwwTDMcTwgfEDAfJE8QTwhMT xBMHwgzLD9sM0w/GDAfDEwzDEwfEDAfLE8YTwxMTxhMHxAztD8gMBgfIE8QMB84TxxPDE8ITyhMH xwzbD8sMEAUMBcIMwgYH1RPKE8UTwxMT0RMH2wwGEAYQBhACBQwFDAUMBgwHBgfWE8sTxRPDExPu EwYMBhAGEAIGDAYMwwYH1xPLE8YTwxMT8BPKBgfYE8wTxhPDExP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhMMAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD/ /wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A //8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAA AP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA /wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCk gICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vw oKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw //vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzA psrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDA wNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICA wMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACA AICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACA gACA//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP////// --0__=sBp5LUcoNFSJpNHzAPPpB08DyJQZ45a3lmetypr9OxCMJK9PXlLnCjuy-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 20:29:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01728; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:22:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01723; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:22:22 -0500 From: Paul_Deaton@amat.com Received: from cressida.mis.amat.com (daemon@localhost) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id MAA06022 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com ([152.135.210.40]) by cressida.mis.amat.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA06009 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05 (274.9 11-27-1996)) id 8825641A.0070748A ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:28:18 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMAT To: diy_efi Message-ID: <8825641A.006F297A.00@GWSMTPSCLA02.mis.amat.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:18:57 -0700 Subject: Re: octane booster Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="0__=HPlk2wRqYin0gwDzeRei3uYX0UAA6W3jeLvmSIVWtruJCg3fhYHUvKFy" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi --0__=HPlk2wRqYin0gwDzeRei3uYX0UAA6W3jeLvmSIVWtruJCg3fhYHUvKFy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ok . I have been reading these letters about octane and CA new gas and I can't resist blurting it out any more! The old gas that CA used to use in the winter to reduce emmisions was a alcohol mixture of 10%. This does reduce emmisions. However since CARB has gotten thier dirty little fingers further into the fuel supply, The mixture has changed from alcohol to something else, I can't remember, but I also have noticed a deteration in performance in my car and my truck. my $.02. GIVE US BACK THE ALCOHOL!!!! (Embedded image moved Marc2365 @ aol.com to file: 01/08/97 11:17 PM PIC01415.PCX) Please respond to diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi @ coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Paul Deaton/APPLIED MATERIALS) Subject: Re: octane booster In a message dated 97-01-08 12:43:22 EST, you write: > ~This is a very hot issue in California, where MTBE was first > ~introduced, and where the problem is now quite wide spread. There > ~has been plenty of coverage in the newspapers of this issue. > > And rots the rubber right out of your older car! All Buna-N type > rubber fittings in the fuel system will need to be replaced with > silicone type fittings to survive. Yes, I am in SoCal. Excuse my ignorance: Is this (MTBE) what oxygenates the fuel in Calif? I've noticed my car pinging *more* since this gas started being used year round. Yet I believe someone said this adds octane. Did I remember that wrong? Thanks, Marc --0__=HPlk2wRqYin0gwDzeRei3uYX0UAA6W3jeLvmSIVWtruJCg3fhYHUvKFy Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="PIC01415.PCX" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAABoACwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABaQABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sT zRPHE8MTwhPwEwzIBgzYE8wTxhPDE8IT7hPOBtcTzBPGE8MTE+wTwgbCBwbCEgbCEgbCEsUG1hPL E8YTwxMT6hMMwgYHwgLCAwISwgfEEsMCwwbVE8sTxRPDExPpE8MGAwcCBwMCwhLDB8ISwgISwgLD BtUTyhPFE8MTE+gTwgIHA8ICEw4DDgLDE8USwwLCEMIG1BPKE8UTwxMT5xMCAwcDAg4TDgITwgIS D8ISD8ISBRICEcICwwbUE8oTxRPCExPmEwYCBwMCDgIOwgLDExITEhPCEg8GxgLDBtMMDAfJE8QT whMT5hMGwwITBgMCDhLFEw8SE8ISBgIDwhIDEsMGB9MDxwwHxRPDExPlEwYHAhESAg8CwhMPwhMP xBMPxRIQwgIDAgMCBtMDxwPEDAfDE8IT4RMHwwzCBgLCEhMCDxLIE8MSD8MSwwIQAwIDBgfSDMkD wgPCDAfCExPbEwfGDMIDDAIHERITEhMSwxMPwxMPwxPDEgIDAgMCwwMCBgzREwfHDMYDDMITE9YT B8UMyAMGB8ICBhLDAsYTEhMSExIPwhIHAgcCAwUQAgYRBgfSE8UTB8QMwgMMwhMT0hMHxAzLA8IM BsISDxESExITAw4DxBMSExITwxICBwPCAsMDDMIGB9ITyRMHwwzCExPPEwfDDMkDxQwHwhMGBxIT AhECEwMOAg7DExITDxMPwxIDAgMCBwMCDAYRBgfSE8kTwhPCDMITE8wTB8MMxwPEDMIHxxMGxBLD Ag4DDgIGwg/IEgIDwgIDAgwCEMIGB9ITyRMHDAcMwhMTyhMHwgzGA8MMwgfMEwYHwhLCEAIOAg4C DhDDAhIPxhIFAgXDAgUCEQYH0hPHEwfCDAcPDMITE8gTB8IMxQPDDAfQEwbDEhDEAhAOEA4QwgLG EgcSBhIGBcMCBcIGB9ATB8UMEwfCDA8HDwwHwhMTxhMHwgzEA8MMB9MTBgfCEhADEMICDhAOEMIC EQIDxxIGBwbCAgUCEQYHyxMHxAwHwhMHEwzCEwcPBw8MB8MTE8UTBwzEA8IMB9YTBsQSEAMCA8UC EQIDAgPDEgcSBgfCBgUQAhDCBgfGEwfEDAfGE8INEwzCEw8HwgwHwxPCE8QTBwzDA8IMB9gTBgfE EhACEMYCEQIDAsQSBhLDBsICEALCBgfCEwfDDAfKEwfCDRMHwhPCDAfEE8ITE8MTBwzCA8IMB9oT DBIHwxLDDBEDxQIDAgPDEgYSBgfCBgIQAhAGDAfCEwzDE8MHyRMHwhPCBxMHxRPDExPDEwzCAwwH 3RMGxxICEQPDAgMCA8MSBhIGBwYMBhACEAIGDMMTDBPCB8YTwwfHEwfGE8MTwhPDEwwDDAfeEwYH xxICEQPDAgMCwhIGEgYHBgwGEAIQAsIGB8MTDMYTwwfKEwzGE8MTwhPDE8IMB98TDBLCB8USAgMR xAISB8ISBgcGDAYQBhAGEAYMB8MMB8kTwwfHEwzGE8MTwhPDEwwPwgzfEwYSB8ISB8ISAhECAwID EgcSBwYHBgwGEAYQxgzDD8IHxRPDB8kTBwzGE8MTwhPDEwzDD8QM3BPCBhIGwxIGAhECAwIHBgcG yAzJDxMHzRMHwwwHxxPDE8ITwxMHDMYPxwwH1BMGEgYSBhLLDM4PwwwTDMcTwgfEDAfJE8QTwhMT xBMHwgzLD9sM0w/GDAfDEwzDEwfEDAfLE8YTwxMTxhMHxAztD8gMBgfIE8QMB84TxxPDE8ITyhMH xwzbD8sMEAUMBcIMwgYH1RPKE8UTwxMT0RMH2wwGEAYQBhACBQwFDAUMBgwHBgfWE8sTxRPDExPu EwYMBhAGEAIGDAYMwwYH1xPLE8YTwxMT8BPKBgfYE8wTxhPDExP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhMMAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD/ /wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A //8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAA AP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA /wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCk gICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vw oKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw //vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzA psrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDA wNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICA wMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACA AICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACA gACA//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP////// --0__=HPlk2wRqYin0gwDzeRei3uYX0UAA6W3jeLvmSIVWtruJCg3fhYHUvKFy-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 9 21:45:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01878; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:30:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from primenet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01846; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:29:27 -0500 Received: from ip183.fhu.primenet.com (ip183.fhu.primenet.com [198.68.41.183]) by primenet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA09019 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:27:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:27:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701092127.OAA09019@primenet.com> X-Sender: jforbes@mailhost.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" From: jforbes@primenet.com (J. Forbes) Subject: RE: Newbie-intro Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:14 AM 1/9/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: >You might find out that the engine won't run at all! Your '86 >(assuming you are using all the original stuff off it) is a MAF >engine, while the '91 is MAP. The best option would be to assemble >the package WITHOUT the cold start enrichment injector and use the '89 >PROM. Well, actually, I finally finished the harness and put it in last night, and the engine fired right up!!!! Surprised the daylights out of me :) I forgot to mention, that when the guy put the 90 engine in his 86 Vette, he used his 86 runners and upper plenum, so the 90 runners and plenum came with the 86 and are on the car I'm working on....no cold start injector. No MAF sensor. The thing runs pretty bad, seems to have two cylinders not firing right or at all, misses quite a bit. I just did a compression check, 150# across the board. The distributor cap looks funky, it had some water in the coil area while in storage, and the coils all rusty, but I didnt see any evidence that this is causing the problem. On my old Sun tune up scope, cylinders 2 and 5 have a different spark pattern than the rest, there's kind of a second spike at the end of the firing period. Those plugs are wet, also. Might be a couple bad injectors, they were supposed to have been cleaned and tested by a shop, but perhaps they didnt really test them....I might switch a couple and see if the misfire moves around with the injectors. The misfire doesnt seem to be a mixture problem, the exhaust analyzer shows about 1 to 2 % CO and about 100 to 200 PPM HC while running, which are good numbers for an non-catalyst engine. Very odd...usually an ignition missfire will send the HC level thru the roof, which is what leads me to believe the injectors might be acting up. If there's no fuel, then there's no HC. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 00:00:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA02334; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:51:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02329; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:51:42 -0500 Received: from p4-11.net-link.net (p4-11 [205.217.6.205]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11545 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:54:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199701092354.SAA11545@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 19:15:40 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: RE: mtbe, hc05 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi e without pinging. >MTBE as far as I know doesn't have any toxic side affects. It's the >active ingredient in "104 octane boost". >cheers >jw > I accessed the "104 Octane Boost" web page and they say there is NO MTBE in their products....what's up? Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 00:05:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA02346; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:59:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02341; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:59:12 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial47.voyager.net [207.74.103.47]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA11092 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:58:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D5C1AA.74E3@voyager.net> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:12:26 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question References: <199701091000.KAA29902@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans am. Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not require you to modify the intake manifold. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 01:21:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02481; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:14:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02475; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:14:38 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA20228 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:11:09 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA10749; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:51:52 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA10749; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:51:52 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00114; Fri, 10 Jan 97 08:47:43 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701101347.AA00114@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:47:34 est To: diy_efi Subject: Forwarded: Re: Motronic Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I agree with Gary here. After reading all the posts about this, I'd have to say that Todd and Jim aren't the only ones who have information that is commercially sensitive in some way. In such cases, what's wrong with just saying nothing at all? It sure beats flaming someone for asking a question! Andrew Rabbitt From: thor@pixie.co.za:smtp Date: ## 01/09/97 13:11 ## >I disagree. Todd regularly gives invaluable support to this list with his expertise. If he feels the need to stop short of doing himself out of business then I feel that's his perogative. > > > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I believe, is not in the spirit of this group. Remeber, there may be someone out there who also has the requested information, and is willing to share it. Gary From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 01:21:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02472; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:11:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02467; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:11:18 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA20233 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:11:11 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11022; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:56:53 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11022; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:56:53 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00134; Fri, 10 Jan 97 08:52:00 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701101352.AA00134@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:51:50 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Bosch Motronic was NEVER designed to be tuned outside of the FACTORY neither was any EEC-4, GM-Delco, Lucas, Mitsubishi or Nipondenso system, but we can all try if we want to. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 01:45:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02544; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:43:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02539; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:43:39 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.231 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viW5G-0008ZrC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 17:48 PST Message-ID: <32D52FF7.2928@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 17:50:51 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question References: <199701091000.KAA29902@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> <32D5C1AA.74E3@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans > am. > > Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not > require you to modify the intake manifold. OK I have a couple of other questions: Will the new harness basically be the same as mine with additional connections for the TPI injectors, sensors ect.? What I am getting at is will the new harness contain the same connections for power source, ALDL ect.? Will it be a "plug in" deal with additional plugs or will I need to do some rewiring? Will I be able to use my current coil-in-cap HEI, its the large diameter one? What about recalibrating the EPROM, will it be nessecary? Any tips, advise or flames will be appreciated. -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 01:45:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02536; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:41:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02530; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:41:07 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA22784 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:41:04 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11602; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:11:55 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA11602; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:11:55 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00137; Fri, 10 Jan 97 09:06:30 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701101406.AA00137@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:06:22 est To: diy_efi Subject: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi LDA requires particles in the air-stream to work. Fortunately the dust present is enough. The system works by intersecting two laser beams at the point you want to measure the velocity. At the intersection, the two beams form interference bands. As particles travel through the intersection, they reflect pulses of light at each constructive interference fringe. A photo-detector senses this reflected light. The frequency of the detected pulses is directly related to the speed of the particle, which is related to the flow velocity. Note though that this is not a MASS flow detector Andrew Rabbitt From: (Mazda Ebrahimi) kleenair@ix.netcom.com:smtp Date: ## 12/20/96 22:34 ## RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au wrote: > > What I'd be interested in is a LDA (laser-doppler-anemometery) type > air velocity sensor. > > Andrew Rabbitt Andrew, I've been away for a few days and have alot of messages to read .... Can you explain LDA further? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 01:46:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02554; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:45:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02549; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:45:30 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc56.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.56]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA07270 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:45:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701100145.SAA07270@mail.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 18:45:27 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: re: BMW Motronic 1.1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:51 1/10/97 est, you wrote: >neither was any EEC-4, GM-Delco, Lucas, Mitsubishi or Nipondenso >system, but we can all try if we want to. Agreed.. but STEP ONE is to disassemble the SOFTWARE, not just "find the maps"... I'll help anyone who wants to do it the RIGHT way!! (which is NOT the easy way!) Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 02:14:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02621; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:08:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02616; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:08:53 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.231 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viWTW-00094DC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 18:13 PST Message-ID: <32D535D8.10D2@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 18:16:02 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI References: <3.0.32.19970109120242.006947ec@sun4c409> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Steve Ravet wrote: > > At 12:09 AM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I am considering converting my '84 Chevy K5 Blazer with a stock 350 and > >700R4 tranny to EFI. I am considering purchasing a "complete TPI kit" > >from one of several suppliers. Though this seems like the easiest way to > >get all the nessecary parts it is also the most expensive, which lends > >me towards pulling a system from a bone yard. My problem is I don't know > >what veichle would make a good donor, I would need the complete > >induction system, ECM and all smog equipment(California). Any ideas? > >What kind of problems can I expect? Anything I should consider before > >starting this conversion? I would also need a recalibrated EPROM, > >wouldn't I? If so does anyone here have any experince with calibrating > >after such a conversion? When the time comes if someone could burn me a > >chip (or even e-mail the data dump) I would be willing to pay for your > >time...assuming you would be able to help with any follow up tweaking. > >Any advise/recomendations or tales of experince would be greatly > >appreciated. > > Hi Mike, one thing I would consider is buying a complete used engine from > the wrecking yard. I just put a TBI 350 in my S-10, the engine cost me > $900 from the boneyard. That is *complete*, with wiring harness, all > sensors, charcoal cannister, computer, *everything*. It came from a '91 > Caprice w/40,000 miles, and I put it straight in. I only replaced the rear > seal and the oil pan gasket. That's less money than I've seen anyone > mention for a Holley or other TBI kit, plus you have a spare engine when > you are done. There's a book from a company called JTR that you might want > to buy, it's all about swapping FI Chevy blocks into older non-FI GM cars. > They offer a line of parts also, like VSS sensors, etc. see > www.jagsthatrun.com > > --steve > Steve, I don't want to pull a complete engine as mine is a brand new (not rebuilt) 4-bolt 350 with less than 20k on it now. What I was hopeing for was info on what veichle would make a good donor. What I will probally do is get all hard-parts(induction system, relays, computer ect.) and buy the wiring harness and recalibrated EPROM, if it's nessecary, from Fuel Injection Specialties in Texas. Any comments/suggestions? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 02:26:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02646; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:23:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02641; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:23:42 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.231 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viWi1-0008o3C; Thu, 9 Jan 97 18:28 PST Message-ID: <32D538C3.4DBC@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 18:30:57 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI...More ??? References: <199701091851.KAA01672@orb.direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi peter paul fenske wrote: > > Hi Mike > > Said this before to the point of boring people > > Get a J-car computer 87-91 millions of em out there last #s are 730 > on ECM broadcast stamp. While you are at it steal the harness with > every sensor and transducer you can get from the J car. > > Go to you gm dealer and order a calpak for a 90-92 F body with a > 5.7. Costs me 50$ canadian. You may also order connectors for > the TPS, the IAC and a large body HEI if you are gonna use one. > > For a tpi I'd use the 89-92 setup since the cold start valve > isn't on the manifold. The older 85 -88 are ok but there is a > cold start valve that isn't working to explain to the referees > > Make sure you get the distributer and connector. Also you may have > to drill the two center bolts on the manifold of the newer tpis > to fit older chev heads, no sweat silcone works great. > > You will have to figure out the VSS, you might have to get a > taxi transducer. > > In fact JTR Mike Knell sells a great book. Look it up. Summit sells it. > > You will also have to address VATS. Do this with 10$ of radio shack parts > > If you want to look at a calpak Jameco sells lots of programmers > cheap. You will have to make a perfboard adapter to read and > program the calpak. > > Well GL: peter Ah....say what! I now know I am a true EFI\ neophyt. I don't know what the difference between a j-car and f-body. What is VSS? What would I do with a taxi transducer? What does it do? Can't you get a EPROM without VATS? If not, how do you address it with radio shack parts? What is a calpac? Is it another name for an EPROM? EFI lingo ignorant, Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 02:33:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02669; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:31:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02664; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:31:46 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD2e.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.78]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA11804 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:31:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:31:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701100231.SAA11804@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: RE: Conversion to TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike The book JTR sell is great -you can buy direct-they are in Milpitas CA. A good source of complete TPI unit is GM SPORTS SALVAGE in San Jose. Since they in the bay area they are REAL good about Complete packages- smog stuff included. Mike Knell's book has a section on smog and what you have to do so it will pass. My project is a 74 Chevy 4x4 1/2 ton 383 eng. The TPI unit is out of a 86 Camaro with a 89 eprom. Took two trips to smog ref to pass inspection. If you have any questions about process you may e-mail direct. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 02:53:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02700; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:50:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from upsmot03.msn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02695; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:50:28 -0500 Received: from upmajb04.msn.com ([204.95.110.81]) by upsmot03.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id SAA02886 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:49:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 02:46:35 UT From: "Orin Harding" Message-Id: To: diy_efi Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There is a company in England that makes an interface for the Motronic that will allow user programming. The company is GEMS (General Engine Management Systems) and they do have a web page. ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 8:51 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: BMW Motronic 1.1 > Bosch Motronic was NEVER designed to be tuned outside of the FACTORY neither was any EEC-4, GM-Delco, Lucas, Mitsubishi or Nipondenso system, but we can all try if we want to. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 04:02:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA02832; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 03:58:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02827; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:58:50 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.101 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viYC8-0009FDC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 20:03 PST Message-ID: <32D54FAA.A4B@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:06:09 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI References: <199701100231.SAA11804@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jennifer Rose wrote: > > > Mike > > The book JTR sell is great -you can buy direct-they are in Milpitas > CA. A good source of complete TPI unit is GM SPORTS SALVAGE in San Jose. > Since they in the bay area they are REAL good about Complete packages- smog > stuff included. Mike Knell's book has a section on smog and what you have to > do so it will pass. > > My project is a 74 Chevy 4x4 1/2 ton 383 eng. The TPI unit is out of > a 86 Camaro with a 89 eprom. Took two trips to smog ref to pass inspection. > If you have any questions about process you may e-mail direct. > > Vance Jennifer, What kind of problems did the smog ref find? Where they simple things that were pretty obvious? Or was the ref really praticular about fairly minor things? Just hoping to avoid problems when my turn comes to be scrutinized. P.S. About how long did it take you to install the TPI? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 04:02:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02844; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:01:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02839; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:01:30 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.101 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0viYEi-0009FDC; Thu, 9 Jan 97 20:06 PST Message-ID: <32D5504A.7767@electriciti.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:08:50 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI References: <199701100231.SAA11804@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jennifer Rose wrote: > > > Mike > > The book JTR sell is great -you can buy direct-they are in Milpitas > CA. A good source of complete TPI unit is GM SPORTS SALVAGE in San Jose. > Since they in the bay area they are REAL good about Complete packages- smog > stuff included. Mike Knell's book has a section on smog and what you have to > do so it will pass. > Jennifer, I meant to ask in my last post if you happen to have the telephone number for "GM SPORTS SALVAGE"? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 04:28:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA02992; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:24:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02987; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:24:33 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA09983 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:24:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:24:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970109232429_945320887@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: GM ALDL Information Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings, I just signed up to this mailing list at the recommendation of George Dailey, so thanks George for a great lead on the GM EFI system(s). I've been reading throughout the day some of the archived messages associated with the late model GM ALDL data stream, but I couldn't find any conclusion to this message thread, i.e. a schematic for interfacing a PC to the GM computer, associated software, and GM codes. If anyone has this information, I'd be most grateful. As a "consolation prize", if this information/interface is not readily available, I would be more than happy to participate in creating the schematic, if I can get hold of some additional interfacing requirements. I'm fairly familiar with the Motorola 68HC11E9 chip, and its my belief that the GM computer uses one from the same family. Also, I've built quite a number of embedded systems (from an electronics point of view only, software came from a co-developing pal of mine) in the past, and I can't imagine creating an interface that difficult. Info on me: (the short version) I'm transplanting a FWD GM powertrain (3.8L supercharged) to the rear of a "homebrew" mid-engine vehicle I'm putting together. In less than a week, I'll have a web site with all the info on my project, so I won't take up your space and time explaining it all here. I have skills in electronics (though from a hobbyist realm), embedded systems (also hobbyist), LAN/WAN networking, C programming, and some mechanical ability. Any leads or information would be appreciated. Thanks for your consideration, Frederic Breitwieser "HomeBrew Automotive" mailing list guy From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 04:41:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA03041; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:38:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA03036; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:38:00 -0500 Received: from van-as-14b02.direct.ca (van-as-14b02.direct.ca [204.174.251.66]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA23583 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:37:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701100437.UAA23583@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 08:24:51 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: ion to TPI...More ??? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello again Mike First off I would suggest all the people who are comptemplating this please buy Mike Knells book from JTR. Its 23 $ at Summit racing and makes the task a lot lot simpler! You do not need a custom re very expensive calpak for a standard motor. You may have to build a 555 oscillator that puts out the signal the anti theft algorithm in the ecm wants to see. And yes JTR s book explains this Elsewise you could get me(hopefully not) or some other kind soul to simply disable the Vehicle anti theft bit in you calpak. Now in california wonderful place they probably want the Vehicle speed sensor to work since a lot of the ecms work is done with the vehicle moving. So you need a speed signal for the ECM. For about 60$ JTR sells you one which fits the standard speedo drive. Anywho I don't want to get anyone mad at me so if you have any more questions email me directly. But I really recomend JTRS book. GL to u: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 05:17:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03102; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:13:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA03097; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:13:40 -0500 Received: from scott.netinc.ca (pm1-5.netinc.ca [205.211.8.105]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17083 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:13:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:13:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701100513.AAA17083@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Sender: aa877@freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Scott Feaver Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 10:38 PM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >Get a J-car computer 87-91 millions of em out there last #s are 730 >on ECM broadcast stamp. While you are at it steal the harness with >every sensor and transducer you can get from the J car. > >If you want to look at a calpak Jameco sells lots of programmers >cheap. You will have to make a perfboard adapter to read and >program the calpak. Where could I find the diagram for this adapter? I have a 91 Sunbird with the V6, and would like to read in the prom. Also, to use that computer with a V8, you would need to install a couple of more wires in to the connectors on the ECM that enable 8-cyl mode and 4th gear. There could be more, but an easy obsticle to overcome. Scott From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 05:59:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA03257; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:56:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA03252; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:56:10 -0500 From: jac@wave.sheridan.wy.us Received: from jac.wave.sheridan.wy.us (slip7.wave.sheridan.wy.us [204.120.134.47]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16622 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:59:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 20:17:45 PST Subject: RE: Miller Cycle To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The net effect of a Miller Cycle is to limit the maximum manifold pressure to a value that keeps the preignition cylinder pressure safe despite increased mechanical compression ratio. This is similar to not pushing the gas pedal down all the way. The reality is that a human cannot track the manifold pressure quickly enough in an automobile to prevent over pressure, particularly during low RPM acceleration. In an aircraft the MAP can be reasonably limited by the pilot at low elevation because of the continuous load presented by a propeller. As the plane climbs, the throttle is opened to take advantage of the increased compression ration in the less dense air at elevation. The economy benefits of the Miller Cycle are certainly attractive in an automobile, but a special cam is a big step that can be avoided. Rather than modifying the cam and valvetrain, a servo system can control the throttle advance so that the MAP is limited to safe value. The whole system can be designed, built, debugged and tested prior to tearing the engine down to install the high compression pistons. The risk and cost of an incomplete project is quite low. MAP would provide the feedback and knock detection would determine the maximum MAP. This should be a quick and flexible home brew development. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 07:58:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA03451; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:49:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA03446; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:49:44 -0500 Received: from van-as-08b10.direct.ca (van-as-08b10.direct.ca [204.174.249.170]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id XAA21810 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:49:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701100749.XAA21810@aphex.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:36:30 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: calpack reader Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Scott I just used vero construction board available at radio shack to make the adapter. The calpak uses a plug similiar to the old s100 buss .1 spacing by .2. You need to spread this out to 0.6 to fit the zif socket of the reader. If you pull the blue cover off the calpak you will see the 27C256 eprom and this will make it plainer. >Where could I find the diagram for this adapter? I have a 91 Sunbird >with the V6, and would like to read in the prom. > >Also, to use that computer with a V8, you would need to install a couple >of more wires in to the connectors on the ECM that enable 8-cyl mode >and 4th gear. There could be more, but an easy obsticle to overcome. After 90 the cylinder select is in the calpak. 4th gear is only necessary if you want a different lockup schedule for 4th gear. >Scott > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 10:47:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA03774; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:42:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from admin.cyberenet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA03769; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:42:51 -0500 Received: from ux1.melsa.net.id by admin.cyberenet.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0viePa-000NzNC; Fri, 10 Jan 97 05:42 EST Received: from salendro.ppp.melsa.net.id by ux1.melsa.net.id with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0vidKm-000MB3C; Fri, 10 Jan 97 16:33 JVT Received: by salendro.ppp.melsa.net.id with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFF13.DF401140@salendro.ppp.melsa.net.id>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:32:29 +-700 Message-ID: <01BBFF13.DF401140@salendro.ppp.melsa.net.id> From: "Yudhiar Ariestono..." To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:31:09 +-700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BBFF13.DF47B260" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFF13.DF47B260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Evert Rosseel[SMTP:Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be] Sent: 09 Januari 1997 17:40 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. I just noticed I forgot to mention in my original post that the gas injectors are already available. We only need a system to control them. hai! would you tell me, where I can find the gas injectors (address or e-mail) thankyou very much... Also, can someone post the fax number of the firm that makes the MOTEC system, or a dealer in Europe ? Evert > Hi ! > > We are currently looking for an EFI system for a V8 engine. > The engine is a Chevy big block, converted for operation on natural > gas and/or hydrogen and currently works with a gas carburettor on an > engine test stand (fully equipped with instrumentation). > > The EFI system should have the following specifications : > - is to be used for timed, multipoint port injection > - fully sequential injection : each cylinder must have a seperate > injection period, at the same location in the cycle (for example : > during the inlet stroke).(This is necessary with hydrogen because of > problems with preignition and backfire and also because up to 20% of > the air is displaced by the hydrogen what would lead to differences > in power between cylinders if the injection is not fully sequential) > - the injectors need to be driven at 24V (although it may be possible > to take a 12V signal and convert it to 24V) > - operation without lambda sensor (we specifically don't want to run > at the same richness all the time and any EFI system that works > in a closed loop would make this impossible without complicating the > system) > - preferably programmable via PC, if possible even during running > (for our experiments it would be very awkward to have to stop the > engine every time we want to change a parameter) > > We need a system that is capable of starting the engine reliably and > running it at all speeds and at all throttle settings. Once this is > possible fine tuning of the equivalence ratio can be done > by changing the gas supply pressure for instance. > We assume the biggest problem will be to get the engine idling. > > Can anybody point me out where I can find such a system ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFF13.DF47B260 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih0JAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABAC8AAABSRTogTG9va2luZyBmb3IgYW4gRUZJIHN5c3RlbSBmb3IgYSBWOCBlbmdpbmUuAC0P AQWAAwAOAAAAzQcBAAoAEAAfAAkABQAcAQEggAMADgAAAM0HAQAKABAAHAAPAAUAHwEBCYABACEA AAA4N0Q0NTgwRjA2NkJEMDExQjM4NjQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMADDBgEDkAYAnAgAABIAAAALACMAAQAA AAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCgCwwD2f67AR4AcAABAAAALwAAAFJFOiBMb29r aW5nIGZvciBhbiBFRkkgc3lzdGVtIGZvciBhIFY4IGVuZ2luZS4AAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7/tkD Ag9Y1IhrBhHQs4ZERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAWAAAAc2FsZW5k cm9AbWVsc2EubmV0LmlkAAAAAwAGENZhTvEDAAcQEwcAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAC0tLS0tLS0tLS1G Uk9NOkVWRVJUUk9TU0VFTFNNVFA6RVZFUlRST1NTRUVMQFJVR0FDQkVTRU5UOjA5SkFOVUFSSTE5 OTcxNzo0MFRPOkRJWUVGSUBDT1VMT01CRU5HT0hJTy0AAAAAAgEJEAEAAAAGBwAAAgcAAA8NAABM WkZ1lRpHfv8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVt AoMztwLkBxMCgzQSzBTFfQqAiwjPCdk7F58yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwMy8UUAsKFWIMAWMAQWkg gwqFCotsaTE4MALR4GktMTQ0DfAM0B6DuQtZMTYKoANgE9BjBUC+LSCnCocfWwwwICZGA2GOOiGu ICYMgiBFdgSQDwVACAAEEAngbFtTTShUUDolYy4lxUByCHVnLgDQLmJlXT8hTyJdBmACMCOPJJsw OTQgSgBwdQrAHIAxOeQ5NyzQNzoeoCgfIl0MVG8qXySbZGl5X2kNwGlABaB1FzAG0C6DCfAnkG9o aW8tE8BmYRPQMnBkdS2PKS51nGJqIGEvrySbUmU2EJBMb29rC4BnIAIQgwXAA5FFRkkgcxOz4Tik IFY4IDKBC4AzUPMcrx2zMzYfJxRRC/IgJkk5QGp1E8AgbiBAaS5jCYA9wTixZyBAIHT8byAHgAIw MuADoAuAP3A0eSAFsGk6gQdAIHAvJdA/MRGAQSJlHJZnYf8EIAuANdIFsAQgCsBBsAdAyRegYWRA QGF2C3ALYNsCYDq3V0GwAiBsQEA6oP8+kToQOWU/UQWgAjADYAMgPUGRbTrGGw8cHhGAaSHtR1V3 MhE+oHkIYD9AJhB7AyAHgCxKcEGgQzE5QGO7A5EeUG4+oEGSQkwoQ6DOZBegBBEFsWUtAMADEOYp R1VBQW5rSuIlcUBA9G11EXAuUKA63zvvPPzhR1VBbHNvS5BMMlRgHweAAiBBsED1QbBmYXhdPjB1 BtAEkEBQZlWkaW5yRjFBUgDAaweRQZJN8E9URUMcljlkS5A54y8NsAdAVnFAAUUIcG9wHUGwP1Dc JWNQ3D4gSL8cgEoGXSBct0TxQyJjCHD/F6ACMEVBFzA4XzlvOntdIJ5UQaE6ZD/wQwEgQ0GgOnZA QGJAgGQwFzBja79UgQIgJXI+kWAyWsFyMzD3P8I/0UCwdAhwQMFct0JCSQBwZC8FsWh5ThBvnmcJ 8GfiXwlKgHJrBCCfA/BBQGGBQkJMMHJiCHD/EcBC0WZiA5Fct2MlE9A+ETMzEUyRKGYyIEVBZXH+ dQUgWtA+oGozC4ATwCdwOz+CZhMpYkhiW2Cpc2j/SpMRgCVwVaQG8BcwA/BgAXpzWtBjBpA+cGYT BCA63Vy3LWOCP1En4CA+AGVl2z5gB4BkS5BQYGw+YEDw/wuABUBA8CWRQoQ/wXTJbcT/EbBuMD+S QMF4B3SgOlAA0PlqYGN5HeBMkFZxUGA+Eftyk0XBZWXjQbddIHpYZeHnMuB20UFlc2EHgF+hdDR3 P/JBkntgY0RQbaFOcnj/f3ALUEGwNhBctzOABRBgAX9BkguARFBtMgNgV9Bv8Cj/YuBjkWOROqA+ gAQQCsBpsf9qQmhnJ+BMMHYBVpJctyAh7URBbWoVE1BlQIADAD+z9WjyYgDQa1cRQ0FMkQdAs1Rg hid1cD9CAdAlhqv/QZILcFpBBCAxgHPAC2A+gv5iQEBBkmhnS7BBYUqERFDfQ6A/QjGADdBL0W6E 0X067UDhd1ZxJ+B0kXBowXtm/0JhVrR6WISCPyF5Tk8GdTLfkwhC4kVzdaROEGklcGjRcQVAMjRW TdF3IHIxZ/9u4VeSZCFVQwCQREGLuT9g5wGQV9BhgTEymGAAkIiQ/0DBaPNlBJkSiyKYUJVaZdjf ajIIYAVAC2AG0GR8kgCAXQWxKJFwc7ht4mQCICf/jtEAcD8zJ3Br6X76BRARcL86oAQRoQFBg3aS idRuQED/YKlBQ2nUkJphkIDQJdA+kf9fsYsASoRXskExhFKBkJnW/57mBaCBkXQjgtVct2DklVr/ iFGQAUQxQEAgIQnAf3AAwMWaEnYHMCBQQ0uQktH/mcdkAGjBgpWiMQMAYAFct/+BEwhhgVF+cj+C QmGO1nXR8VATYXdrobALID9CcpT/P2ATwKhxq6tjJbBRUDGk0/+gUaG2EXEaoHxyR4F/cRPQ/nKV WF4aRX1BUmORTDBHgP+aElahMxEAIILGYyUXoB3g/63zaPJct7EWmSFBYaRSc8H/CYBn08B2QUAg MV9wf0FrQeFf8XMuIE+QQalFkHn/mcdMcWzhokBf8lalbiJD8P9EUMNSZgNMI5dyVSJct42h97ij gsZCQnOK8AtQriJOMf9rIWAjbwIAcD6AYkheosqx/3+BQZJkQWiwPhGHdWohS0HfddE/UWiwQXRj JmR7gSeQ/7nfY9ADkaVhBuBDsXdUf4H/nyJLv8oQezFFx1sGcItPoVtCYmBgZEPwkEEs1R8g/ERy wyBXIMMgJWtQ3FFPF1JfU2wWwQDd4AAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAgnRKb2P67AUAACDAg nRKb2P67AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAA8Pg= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFF13.DF47B260-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 12:45:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA03907; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:42:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mn1.swip.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA03902; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:41:59 -0500 From: fj@nohau.se Received: by mn1.swip.net (8.8.2/2.01) id MAA23809; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:39:29 GMT Message-ID: <199701101239.MAA23809@mn1.swip.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:46:13 +0100 To: diy_efi Cc: 74714.701@compuserve.com Subject: BOSCH LSM 11 O2 sensor spec MIME-version: 1.0 (Created by TFS) Content-Type: text/plain ; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: TFS Gateway V210U0641M Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have the spec ! Mail me your fax number and I will fax it to you. Best regards Fredrik ******************* Subject: BOSCH LSM 11 O2 sensor Date: 08 Jan 97 16:44:37 EST From: Rene Hjort pedersen <74714.701@compuserve.com> Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efimail Hi There I have a Bosch LSM 11 O2 sensor (0 258 104 002), but I don't have any data sheets. Is there any one that can help with the output ( volt ) from this sensor ? Or know where I can get some data sheets ? Is it possible to use the PTC sensor in the sensor to determine the temperature of the exhaust gas ? Regards Rene Pedersen 74714.701@CompuServe.COM Denmark Fredrik Jeppsson --------------------- Nohau Elektronik AB Derbyv=E4gen 4 S-212 35 Malm=F6 SWEDEN Tel: +46-40-592200 Fax: +46-40-592229 --------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 13:21:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03977; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:15:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03972; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:15:53 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv2-12.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv2-12.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.76]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA19209 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:15:50 -0800 Message-ID: <32D66419.4154@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:45:29 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <9701101406.AA00137@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Andrew, Thanks for the explanation. This is my first exposure to LDA, so I have no idea how sensitive the system is. 1) How would the system determine the direction of travel of the particles? More importantly, how does it detect direction changes in dynamic flow, or what kind of errors are caused by turbulance and eddies in the air flow, etc.? 2) Do you think this is applicable to inside the manifold, or on the air inlet ducting somewhere. It seems the laser lenses might be hard to keep clean. Thanks for the input. Best Regards, Mazda RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au wrote: > > LDA requires particles in the air-stream to work. Fortunately the > dust present is enough. The system works by intersecting two laser > beams at the point you want to measure the velocity. At the > intersection, the two beams form interference bands. As particles > travel through the intersection, they reflect pulses of light at each > constructive interference fringe. A photo-detector senses this > reflected light. The frequency of the detected pulses is directly > related to the speed of the particle, which is related to the flow > velocity. Note though that this is not a MASS flow detector > > Andrew Rabbitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 13:34:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA04008; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:29:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.carib-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA04003; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:29:44 -0500 Received: from pm5-142.carib-link.net (pm5-131.carib-link.net [196.29.65.131]) by ns1.carib-link.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21913 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:32:43 -0500 Received: by pm5-142.carib-link.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFED8.E96C4AC0@pm5-142.carib-link.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:30:26 -0800 Message-ID: <01BBFED8.E96C4AC0@pm5-142.carib-link.net> From: Michelle Bujhawan To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: EFI TRAINING Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:30:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi EFI FOLKS, I'm new to this list. I'm an auto mechanic for over 20 years all on = carburetted vehicles. I'm now bombarded with an influx of foreign used Japenese vehicles, all = fuel injected. Mazdas, Nissans, Toyotas, Mitsubishi, etc.. I need to upgrade my skills asap. I'm looking for some guidance as to what are good training materials, = videos, books, etc... and free stuff on the net also welcomed. I'm looking for BASICS first, like Overview of the different EFI's = systems, principles of operation, overview etc.... Then I'll progress = tospecifics systems. I'm green to FI systems. Any help/direction would be greatly = appreciated. Remember - our country (TRINIDAD) mostly have Japanese = imports. Thanks in Advance From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 13:45:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA04063; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:40:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA04058; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0500 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.40.135.23]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA31208; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:48:11 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id ab19905; 10 Jan 97 13:42 WET Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 08:41 EST From: Nass Jeff To: diy efi Subject: RE: Looking for an EFI system for a V8 e Message-Id: <81970110134118/0004388719DC6EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi hai! would you tell me, where I can find the gas injectors (address or e-mail) thankyou very much... Evert ---------------------- You may want to call your local Chrysler dealer. The CNG injectors used on the minivans were available for $53 each in '94. I think the rail pressure was 150 psig... Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:15:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04457; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:09:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04446; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:08:59 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13887; Fri, 10 Jan 97 07:12:59 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA27102; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:05:27 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970110090608.006944c4@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:06:14 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 05:50 PM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >Daniel Burk wrote: >> >> Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans >> am. >> >> Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not >> require you to modify the intake manifold. > >OK >I have a couple of other questions: Will the new harness basically be >the same as mine with additional connections for the TPI injectors, >sensors ect.? What I am getting at is will the new harness contain the >same connections for power source, ALDL ect.? Will it be a "plug in" >deal with additional plugs or will I need to do some rewiring? Will I be >able to use my current coil-in-cap HEI, its the large diameter one? What >about recalibrating the EPROM, will it be nessecary? Any tips, advise or >flames will be appreciated. >-- >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > Mike, same as what harness? Your '84 is carbed, right? Doesn't really matter, I don't think any connectors that were originally in different vehicles will mate properly. For my S-10 I had to get the factory service manual for the '86 Blazer (for the body schematics) and the service manual for the '91 Caprice (engine harness schematics). Both vehicles have a bulkhead connector where the engine harness joins to the dash/body harness. They didn't mate, but they did have mostly the same wires in them. I bought a spare S-10 harness from the junkyard so I would have extra connectors, wires, etc. I spent 40 hours or so comparing schematics, and deciding how to splice the harnesses together. A lot of it was straightforward, such as fused and unfused power, but some things were a little tricky. The A/C required some thought, as did the fuel pump. One ECM switched power to the fuel pump, the other switched ground. Anyway, sit down with both schematics, and figure it all out at once. I typed it all into a spreadsheet and printed it out. Then when you make the connections it's all there in front of you. Twist the wires at first until everything seems OK, then crimp and tape them. Pull the harness apart, you can put it back into the plastic sheath later. good luck. --steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:17:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04528; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:15:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04523; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:15:08 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13908; Fri, 10 Jan 97 07:19:09 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA27682; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:11:33 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970110091214.006a13f8@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:12:20 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI...More ??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 06:30 PM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >peter paul fenske wrote: >Ah....say what! I now know I am a true EFI\ neophyt. I don't know what >the difference between a j-car and f-body. What is VSS? What would I do >with a taxi transducer? What does it do? Can't you get a EPROM without >VATS? If not, how do you address it with radio shack parts? What is a >calpac? Is it another name for an EPROM? VSS is vehicle speed sensor. A device in the tailshaft of the trans that puts out 2000 or 4000 pulses per mile. It drives the electronic speedometer, and is also an input to the ECM for torque converter lockup. JTR sells a VSS sensor that attaches to your mechanical speedo cable at the trans, so you get the VSS signal for the ECM and still have the cable for your mechanical speedo. A calpack is GM speak for an EPROM. VATS is easy to address with a simple circuit, the JTR book explains it. I think its a simple 555 oscilator circuit. Alternatively, if you have the original key you can solder a resistor that matches the key right into the harness. F body is Camaro/Firebird, J body is ??? > >EFI lingo ignorant, >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:17:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04521; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:15:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sh1.ro.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04516; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:14:59 -0500 Received: from ts2p13.ro.com (ts2p13.ro.com [205.216.92.54]) by sh1.ro.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA30376 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:14:56 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:14:56 -0600 Message-Id: <199701101514.JAA30376@sh1.ro.com> X-Sender: toy4x4@ro.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jack Alford Subject: Re: ion to TPI...More ??? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Peter wrote: >First off I would suggest all the people who are comptemplating >this please buy Mike Knells book from JTR. Its 23 $ at Summit racing >and makes the task a lot lot simpler! I have this book and another called 'Repairing and Modifying GM TPI and TBI' I *think* it's called, it's a MUCH more detailed book. The jaguar people book just really has a lot pictures and tells what you CAN do, discusses alot of pitfalls and other problems but I felt it didn't really explain to me how to do much. Where this "Repairing and Modifying GM.. " book tells what all the different wires/connectors/sensors/etc. do ... I guess I was a greenhorn when I first joined this list and didn't know what all the acronyms stood for, this last book I bought explained all that. It doesn't necessarily discuss engine swapping per se but explains fuel injection and how it works, the two books combined are a wealth of information to me ... my $.015 ... gotta hate inflation .. - jack From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:50:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04669; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:48:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04664; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:48:55 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA23062; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:48:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma023054; Fri, 10 Jan 97 09:48:13 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFEDB.B9DAD580@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:50:35 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'jforbes@primenet.com'" Subject: RE: Newbie-intro Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:50:54 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Five and seven on the small block fire consecutively. It is generally advised NOT to run these two wires adjacent to each other due to cross-fire considerations. You will find that the MAP sensor engine is rather sensitive to engine changes (much more so than the MAF, which is why I recommended the MAF with the '89 chip). I will not pretend to try to diagnose your engine from my desk, but this is a consideration. If the distributor looks funky, replace it!...AND the coil...AND the wires. The injectors might be suspect, but I would look at the connections before I pulled the injectors (much easier). Also listen for air. This system is famous for air leaks. Good luck. ---------- From: jforbes@primenet.com[SMTP:jforbes@primenet.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 3:28 PM To: 'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu' Subject: RE: Newbie-intro At 11:14 AM 1/9/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: >You might find out that the engine won't run at all! Your '86 >(assuming you are using all the original stuff off it) is a MAF >engine, while the '91 is MAP. The best option would be to assemble >the package WITHOUT the cold start enrichment injector and use the '89 >PROM. Well, actually, I finally finished the harness and put it in last night, and the engine fired right up!!!! Surprised the daylights out of me :) I forgot to mention, that when the guy put the 90 engine in his 86 Vette, he used his 86 runners and upper plenum, so the 90 runners and plenum came with the 86 and are on the car I'm working on....no cold start injector. No MAF sensor. The thing runs pretty bad, seems to have two cylinders not firing right or at all, misses quite a bit. I just did a compression check, 150# across the board. The distributor cap looks funky, it had some water in the coil area while in storage, and the coils all rusty, but I didnt see any evidence that this is causing the problem. On my old Sun tune up scope, cylinders 2 and 5 have a different spark pattern than the rest, there's kind of a second spike at the end of the firing period. Those plugs are wet, also. Might be a couple bad injectors, they were supposed to have been cleaned and tested by a shop, but perhaps they didnt really test them....I might switch a couple and see if the misfire moves around with the injectors. The misfire doesnt seem to be a mixture problem, the exhaust analyzer shows about 1 to 2 % CO and about 100 to 200 PPM HC while running, which are good numbers for an non-catalyst engine. Very odd...usually an ignition missfire will send the HC level thru the roof, which is what leads me to believe the injectors might be acting up. If there's no fuel, then there's no HC. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:50:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04658; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:43:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04653; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:43:50 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA26155 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:43:45 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA03233; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:40:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199701101540.QAA03233@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:28:45 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > 1) How would the system determine the direction of travel of the > particles? More importantly, how does it detect direction changes in > dynamic flow, or what kind of errors are caused by turbulance and eddies > in the air flow, etc.? The classical systems measure the velocity along one axis (1D). For 2D or 3D more lasers are needed, and different colors are used to measure in the different directions (expensive !). LDA systems measure the real particle velocity, which - normally - is equal to the flow velocity. This means turbulence is measured if present. In fact if turbulence has to be measured in flow in engines, very often LDA is used. direction changes : see end of message > 2) Do you think this is applicable to inside the manifold, or on the air > inlet ducting somewhere. It seems the laser lenses might be hard to keep > clean. Yes. It has several disadvantages though : - it measures at one location - only when one and only one particle passes through the interference bands This means that you need to do measurements over the whole cross section of the manifold, and calculate an average value to measure the flow rate. If the flow is cyclic (as in engines) you also need to average over time (1 cycle). For these reasons LDA is only appropriate for research, if one is interested in the how the flow pattern changes over time for instance. This involves a lot of measurements, in several points in the flow. Only after computer processing the flow can be visualised. Keeping the lenses clean is not a real problem for research, as it needs to be done only every few hours. > > LDA requires particles in the air-stream to work. Fortunately the > > dust present is enough. The system works by intersecting two laser > > beams at the point you want to measure the velocity. At the > > intersection, the two beams form interference bands. As particles > > travel through the intersection, they reflect pulses of light at each > > constructive interference fringe. A photo-detector senses this > > reflected light. The frequency of the detected pulses is directly > > related to the speed of the particle, which is related to the flow > > velocity. Note though that this is not a MASS flow detector I also want to add that in the simple system described above, the sign of the velocity is not known. If the flow changes direction you need to give the interference pattern a (sufficient) velocity of its own, which is done by shifting the frequency of one of the beams. In some engines this flow reversion occurs even in the location where the mass flow meter (MFM) is installed. OPEL has a 4 cylinder 2 litre engine where this happens in a certain rpm and load range. The measurements of the MFM need to be compensated for this effect (some air passes the MFM 3 times !). Also, at low load SI engines will have flow reversal in the inlet ports (valve overlap combined with a low inlet manifold pressure: the exhaust pressure is higher !). Evert **************************************************************** * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * * Laboratory for Machines * * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * * University Gent * * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:55:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04697; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:53:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04692; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:53:55 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA23311; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:53:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma023300; Fri, 10 Jan 97 09:53:11 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFEDC.6BE01B50@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:55:33 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Daniel Burk'" Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:55:52 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug the left fuel rail connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting rid of the cold start injector. ---------- From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans am. Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not require you to modify the intake manifold. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 15:57:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA04713; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:55:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04708; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:55:25 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA23413; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:54:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma023368; Fri, 10 Jan 97 09:54:20 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFEDC.950E6770@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:56:42 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au'" Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:57:01 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Nor has ANY engine manufactured for sale in the USA since the advent of emission controls. ---------- From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au[SMTP:RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au ] Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 7:52 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: BMW Motronic 1.1 > Bosch Motronic was NEVER designed to be tuned outside of the FACTORY neither was any EEC-4, GM-Delco, Lucas, Mitsubishi or Nipondenso system, but we can all try if we want to. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 16:03:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04737; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:00:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04732; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:00:56 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id KAA23716; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:00:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma023702; Fri, 10 Jan 97 10:00:01 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFEDD.602ED4D0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:02:23 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Jones'" Subject: RE: Conversion to TPI Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:02:43 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Since you plan on getting the harness from FIS in San Antonio, anyway; why don't you call Don Salcedo (FIS) at 210-654-0774 and find out how HE recommends you do the install. If you decide to let FIS do the entire mod, you may find that their prices are VERY competitive. Don generally gives good time and advice to kindred souls. Of course, you don't want to over do it. ---------- From: Jones[SMTP:rwj5125@electriciti.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 12:16 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Conversion to TPI Steve Ravet wrote: > > At 12:09 AM 1/9/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I am considering converting my '84 Chevy K5 Blazer with a stock 350 and > >700R4 tranny to EFI. I am considering purchasing a "complete TPI kit" > >from one of several suppliers. Though this seems like the easiest way to > >get all the nessecary parts it is also the most expensive, which lends > >me towards pulling a system from a bone yard. My problem is I don't know > >what veichle would make a good donor, I would need the complete > >induction system, ECM and all smog equipment(California). Any ideas? > >What kind of problems can I expect? Anything I should consider before > >starting this conversion? I would also need a recalibrated EPROM, > >wouldn't I? If so does anyone here have any experince with calibrating > >after such a conversion? When the time comes if someone could burn me a > >chip (or even e-mail the data dump) I would be willing to pay for your > >time...assuming you would be able to help with any follow up tweaking. > >Any advise/recomendations or tales of experince would be greatly > >appreciated. > > Hi Mike, one thing I would consider is buying a complete used engine from > the wrecking yard. I just put a TBI 350 in my S-10, the engine cost me > $900 from the boneyard. That is *complete*, with wiring harness, all > sensors, charcoal cannister, computer, *everything*. It came from a '91 > Caprice w/40,000 miles, and I put it straight in. I only replaced the rear > seal and the oil pan gasket. That's less money than I've seen anyone > mention for a Holley or other TBI kit, plus you have a spare engine when > you are done. There's a book from a company called JTR that you might want > to buy, it's all about swapping FI Chevy blocks into older non-FI GM cars. > They offer a line of parts also, like VSS sensors, etc. see > www.jagsthatrun.com > > --steve > Steve, I don't want to pull a complete engine as mine is a brand new (not rebuilt) 4-bolt 350 with less than 20k on it now. What I was hopeing for was info on what veichle would make a good donor. What I will probally do is get all hard-parts(induction system, relays, computer ect.) and buy the wiring harness and recalibrated EPROM, if it's nessecary, from Fuel Injection Specialties in Texas. Any comments/suggestions? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 16:18:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04779; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:12:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sun5.vpec.ee.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04774; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:12:40 -0500 Received: (from katsisdi@localhost) by sun5.vpec.ee.vt.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id LAA15746; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:06:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:06:14 -0500 (EST) From: Dimos Katsis To: diy_efi Subject: Simple test, please delete In-Reply-To: <32CADCD2.40DA@voyager.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Test from Dimos Katsis to the dyi_efi list please delete From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 16:38:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04838; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:33:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04833; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:32:59 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:32:58 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFED9.44517CD0@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:32:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01BBFED9.44517CD0@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'Thomas Burns'" Cc: "'diy efi'" Subject: RE: Ford Ranger Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:32:57 -0700 Encoding: 98 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey Thomas, Sounds like we may have a similar problem. Did you get your ignition module tested on a machine??? My mate David just took his in to Napa and they tested it and the old boy behind the counter said he'd "stake his life" on the fact that the module was ok. Perhaps he should check out his life policies..... Let me know what you think. Maybe we should just go and buy one anyway. Regards Peter S ---------- From: Thomas Burns Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 3:43 PM To: Peter Shoebridge Subject: RE: Ford Ranger I do believe you have a funky ignition thing... My problem was sporadic, such that even when the ignition was tested it showed to be fine...until it finally died for good. -Tom At 03:45 PM 1/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >Some additional info on mine: > >When it stalls, starting again without turning off the ignition makes the >engine stall again. Turning off the ignition and turning immediately back >on then starting it - it runs fine. > >Strange? > >Peter S > >---------- >From: Thomas Burns >Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 3:33 PM >To: Peter Shoebridge >Subject: Re: Ford Ranger > >I have that same truck with 160K miles on it and have only had one thing go >wrong..the ignition module. It did cause weird problems before it >went...stalling like you speak of...infrequently hard to start...and >finally >it just would not start. > >It took me over a year of battling with it to figure it out...actually a >*fortified* mechanic figured it out. > >That was nearly 50K miles ago and its been like the Energizer Bunny ever >since. > >Let me know if it turns out to be something else. > >Mine has had a rough idle for the last 80K miles and 3 different dealers >give me the good ole "You just luckly the damn thing is still running!" >line. I am thinking it could be the O2 sensor since it has never been >changed. ;) Thoughts? > >-Tom > > > > >At 02:05 PM 1/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Any help/comment on the issue below would be greatly appreciated: >> >>My friend has am '88 ford ranger 2.9 v6. I don't know too much about it >but >>he has a problem with it stalling occasionally when taing his foot off the >>throttle. Doesn't seem to have any relation to temp, can happen straight >>after starting or after several hours of running. Only common aspect is >>going to closed throttle and sometimes it's fine, other it's not. >> >>AFAIK plugs/leads/dist cap etc are all in good cond. It's been into a ford >>dealer and they couldn't fix it although I'm not sure how hard they >>tried...... >> >>Any advise welcome. >> >>Thanks in advance >> >>Peter S >> >> > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 16:41:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04912; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:40:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mashtun by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04907; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:40:37 -0500 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: by mashtun (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRm2.5+GKEm1.1) id AA04852; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:44:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:44:31 -0800 Message-Id: <9701101644.AA04852@mashtun> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Miller Cycle X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I appreciate the knowledgable and friendly discussion of this rather arcane topic. I was confident this would be THE place to discuss it. My post started this thread, and it has moved to a discussion of high compression pistons, after the historical use was discussed. In my case, I am only interested in supercharging, thus there is no internal modifications, save the camshaft, which seems easy compared to pistons. You see I was interested in superchargering 2.0 -2.5 liter motors with standard compression ration. My dicovery of the Miller cycle at the LA atuo show this past monday, just adds a new wrinkle to this idea. I am not sure how the following paragraph applies: >The economy benefits of the Miller Cycle are certainly attractive in an >automobile, but a special cam is a big step that can be avoided. Rather > than modifying the cam and valvetrain, a servo system can control the >throttle advance so that the MAP is limited to safe value. The whole >system can be designed, built, debugged and tested prior to tearing the >engine down to install the high compression pistons. The risk and cost >of >an incomplete project is quite low. >MAP would provide the feedback and knock detection would determine the >maximum MAP. This should be a quick and flexible home Perhaps it is the use of the term "throttle advance" that is throwing me. Perhaps you mean to say that you can attenuate the efi flow electronically? Thanks again for the useful discussions. paul timmerman From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 16:42:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04923; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:41:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04918; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:41:15 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv1-12.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv1-12.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.44]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07748 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:41:10 -0800 Message-ID: <32D69439.480C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:10:49 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <199701101540.QAA03233@allserv.rug.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks Andrew and Evert for your inputs. I think I understand the basic prinicpals of LDA now. It doesn't sound like a very practical idea for production engines anytime soon. Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based on mounting a small object in the air flow path via an arm that has a strain gauge. Increased air flow equates to change in the load cell reading. To cancel out vehicle dynamics an identical setup outside the flow path is used and the signals are subtracted. The resulting reading needs to be corrected based on air temp since the drag force is a function of air density, viscosity, velocity ^ 2. Knowing density (by temp) and viscosity, we can calculate or look-up velocity, and knowing velocity, area, and density, we can determine mass flow rate. Not too many people commented about his message unfortunately, and I can't find the original posting. What are your thoughts? Best Regards, Mazda Evert Rosseel wrote: > > > 1) How would the system determine the direction of travel of the > > particles? More importantly, how does it detect direction changes in > > dynamic flow, or what kind of errors are caused by turbulance and eddies > > in the air flow, etc.? > > The classical systems measure the velocity along one axis (1D). For > 2D or 3D more lasers are needed, and different colors are used to > measure in the different directions (expensive !). > > LDA systems measure the real particle velocity, which - normally - is > equal to the flow velocity. This means turbulence is measured if > present. In fact if turbulence has to be measured in flow in engines, > very often LDA is used. > > direction changes : see end of message > > > 2) Do you think this is applicable to inside the manifold, or on the air > > inlet ducting somewhere. It seems the laser lenses might be hard to keep > > clean. > > Yes. It has several disadvantages though : > - it measures at one location > - only when one and only one particle passes through the interference > bands > > This means that you need to do measurements over the whole cross > section of the manifold, and calculate an average value to measure > the flow rate. > If the flow is cyclic (as in engines) you also need to average over > time (1 cycle). > > For these reasons LDA is only appropriate for research, if one is > interested in the how the flow pattern changes over time for > instance. This involves a lot of measurements, in several points in > the flow. Only after computer processing the flow can be visualised. > > Keeping the lenses clean is not a real problem for research, as it needs to be > done only every few hours. > > > > LDA requires particles in the air-stream to work. Fortunately the > > > dust present is enough. The system works by intersecting two laser > > > beams at the point you want to measure the velocity. At the > > > intersection, the two beams form interference bands. As particles > > > travel through the intersection, they reflect pulses of light at each > > > constructive interference fringe. A photo-detector senses this > > > reflected light. The frequency of the detected pulses is directly > > > related to the speed of the particle, which is related to the flow > > > velocity. Note though that this is not a MASS flow detector > > I also want to add that in the simple system described above, the > sign of the velocity is not known. If the flow changes direction you > need to give the interference pattern a (sufficient) velocity of its own, > which is done by shifting the frequency of one of the beams. > > In some engines this flow reversion occurs even in the location where > the mass flow meter (MFM) is installed. OPEL has a 4 cylinder 2 litre > engine where this happens in a certain rpm and load range. The > measurements of the MFM need to be compensated > for this effect (some air passes the MFM 3 times !). > > Also, at low load SI engines will have flow reversal in the inlet > ports (valve overlap combined with a low inlet manifold pressure: the > exhaust pressure is higher !). > > Evert > **************************************************************** > * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * > * Laboratory for Machines * > * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * > * University Gent * > * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * > * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * > * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * > * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * > * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * > **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 17:07:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05014; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:02:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05009; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:02:13 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:02:10 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFEDD.58060E40@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:02:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01BBFEDD.58060E40@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:02:07 -0700 Encoding: 43 TEXT, 53 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'm also interested in the Motronic. Not from a business point of view just because I have one and am always interested in how these things work.That's why I'm a member of this list. Another chap on this list has been very helpful with location of tables etc. Ok, so lets start with the processor instruction set. It's not standard 8051 - I've got that far. Where can I find the instruction set of the processor? You gave us one "gift", the processor id 80c515. Thats a siemens or phillips chip I guess. I'll take a look on their sites. Is it's instruction set as elusive as the famous intel 8061 ins set? I have a dump of the eprom. You eluded to the fact that there is code in the processor in ROM. Is that true? Presumably without the special equipment I stand little or no chance of getting a dump. Ok, so one step at a time..... Regards Peter S. ---------- From: Land Shark Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 6:45 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: BMW Motronic 1.1 At 08:51 1/10/97 est, you wrote: >neither was any EEC-4, GM-Delco, Lucas, Mitsubishi or Nipondenso >system, but we can all try if we want to. Agreed.. but STEP ONE is to disassemble the SOFTWARE, not just "find the maps"... I'll help anyone who wants to do it the RIGHT way!! (which is NOT the easy way!) Jim begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@H1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!4```!213H@0DU7($UO=')O;FEC(#$N,0#R!0$%@ ,`#@`` M`,T'`0`*``H``@`'``4`]P`!(( #``X```#-!P$`"@`)`"\`)0`%`$$!`0F M`0`A````.#-$-# W1CDW-S9!1# Q,4(S1D$P,$%!,# S.#5".#4`$0FAE;-$#($1L M9P* ?0J ",_%"=D[%Y\R-34"@ J!@PVQ"V!N9S$P,Q0@%PL*$O(,`6,`0"!) M)T1M( = PC1Y ( -2 M'+ @8G4`D"9N!Y $('!O'1$@;]AF('8(D ?@:A^0!4":8@6081^0'A!)(!' MOG8>$ (@'A `00@'1QH;P?@KQWQ(9$=\ N 9P0@=P6P2&LN M5!' ="1QT( > !M $D"!B)-&5!"!L! !T'K!!;AY ]Q8@!< 1L7 B M(2L%L#2VP2DT`<'4*P"8@,#DML#$` M.3DW(#8Z-#7-2L!-7_]<351O8C]>BY!D:7E?#)V5@+C'S5I]7 MHS,V61<4(@P!6A8B005 ,#@Z,C$Q+UT:P"]ED1UA+;!Y-S%W]5HB.E!,/A_ M*P$FX2,`!3IQ;B8@145#+33A+;!'32U$%C %H"VP;DPP,"F@+;!-*P!+`&+W M! `DX#LB3@4@`B -L " VQSP=U9S(R =,&TML!^ _RZ1,_0'0#T!*D$&D'T2 M(P#?($%&<% ]$W )PF12L'S3D%-415 M@$Y%1]+[1G%J,',IH!'P!M!.(1WR M`%-/1E1705)%[RVP,4(@\G]F(C1W`, [P/XB4M\\Q"IR>((B,B8`'/ /?G*! M5!SQ2^1224=(HE1X07DA(7[]*"8`YQZ0*R G84Y/B1!%$RF@ZTMAB4$I?OU* M!W!Q[W+^+QO56A8*A1;!`)$``P`0$ `````#`!$0`````$ `!S!@ZI7\%?^[ K`4 `"#!@ZI7\%?^[`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``#"Z_^[ ` end From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 17:29:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05136; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:21:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from primenet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05131; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:21:41 -0500 Received: from ip175.fhu.primenet.com (ip175.fhu.primenet.com [198.68.41.175]) by primenet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA27113 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:21:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:21:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701101721.KAA27113@primenet.com> X-Sender: jforbes@mailhost.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "'DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" From: jforbes@primenet.com (J. Forbes) Subject: RE: Newbie-intro Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:50 AM 1/10/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: >Five and seven on the small block fire consecutively. It is generally >advised NOT to run these two wires adjacent to each other due to >cross-fire considerations. > >You will find that the MAP sensor engine is rather sensitive to engine >changes (much more so than the MAF, which is why I recommended the MAF >with the '89 chip). I will not pretend to try to diagnose your engine >from my desk, but this is a consideration. If the distributor looks >funky, replace it!...AND the coil...AND the wires. The injectors >might be suspect, but I would look at the connections before I pulled >the injectors (much easier). Also listen for air. This system is >famous for air leaks. > >Good luck. Thanks! I am using a 91 computer setup....which is designed to use only the MAP sensor, not the MAF sensor. The injectors are bad, we took the two back to the place that "tested and cleaned" them before and they decided that they really dont work after all. Thats another story.... The plug wires are new, and routed well enough to not cause problems. I did replace the cap and coil, of course it made no difference, as I suspected. To isolate the problem to the injectors, I also used a stethoscope, and the two bad ones weren't "clicking" like the rest-- also, disconnecting the wires from these two injectors didnt make any difference at all in the way the engine ran. Combining this info with the exhaust gas being just fine, I came to the conclusion that the injectors werent working. We found some used ones at another shop in town, to see if it really fixes the problem, and at $50 for the pair this is an affordable solution :) I'll let you know if it runs on all 8. Sure seemed strong as a V-6, cant wait to drive it as a V-8! Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 17:38:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05283; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:35:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05277; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:35:00 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv3-57.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv3-57.ix.netcom.com [206.217.114.121]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11584 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:34:57 -0800 Message-ID: <32D6A0D3.31E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:04:35 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Miller Cycle References: <9701101644.AA04852@mashtun> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV wrote: > > I appreciate the knowledgable and friendly discussion > of this rather arcane topic. I was confident this > would be THE place to discuss it. > > My post started this thread, and it has moved to a > discussion of high compression pistons, after > the historical use was discussed. > > In my case, I am only interested in supercharging, > thus there is no internal modifications, save the > camshaft, which seems easy compared to pistons. > You see I was interested in superchargering 2.0 -2.5 > liter motors with standard compression ration. > My dicovery of the Miller cycle at the LA atuo show > this past monday, just adds a new wrinkle to this idea. > > I am not sure how the following paragraph applies: > > >The economy benefits of the Miller Cycle are certainly attractive in an > >automobile, but a special cam is a big step that can be avoided. Rather > > than modifying the cam and valvetrain, a servo system can control the > >throttle advance so that the MAP is limited to safe value. The whole > >system can be designed, built, debugged and tested prior to tearing the > >engine down to install the high compression pistons. The risk and cost > >of >an incomplete project is quite low. > > >MAP would provide the feedback and knock detection would determine the > >maximum MAP. This should be a quick and flexible home > > Perhaps it is the use of the term "throttle advance" that is throwing me. > Perhaps you mean to say that you can attenuate the efi flow electronically? > Thanks again for the useful discussions. > > paul timmerman I don't see where you have gained anything without the Cam modification. By raising compression and limiting throttle angle, you are basically running a high compression motor at less than full load. Not very innovative! Controlling the air flow is no problem, as you can do this with a drive by wire system relatively easily. The above description is not a Miller Cycle engine. I guess "throttle advance" means throttle openning angle. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 17:40:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05292; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:37:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05287; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:37:44 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct6-04.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct6-04.ix.netcom.com [199.183.43.196]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA06616 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:37:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:37:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct6-04.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <1997110123557641@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GM Hall Effect Sensor X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Regarding a different issue with my cars, I have a 91 Lotus Elan (Isuzu Impulse Turbo 1.6L engine and FI). A few months ago, the Hall Effect Sensor conked out, resulting in check engine lights coming on. This was covered by Lotus under emmission warantee. However this is a common problem on these cars, as numerous of my friends on the Lotus list with m100 Elans have had this problem. Neither Lotus nor Isuzu sell the sensor separately - you have to buy the whole cam angle sensor, and then fish out the hall effect sensor - a 10 minute fix. However, the cam angle sensor costs over $300 from Lotus, and $130 from Isuzu, and you dont even use the whole thing. The warrantee on these cars is going to go one of these days (5yr 50k), as, I'm is sure, the replacement Hall Effect sensor. Lotus claims that they know of no source to get just the Hall Effect sensor. I wonder if any of you guys might know of some sources for such raw FI parts, so I can research the issue while my car is still running. I am also interested in helping my fellow Elan owners with this issue, and will be posting all the info on the Elan FAQ and lotus-digest. Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 17:46:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05324; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:45:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05319; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:44:58 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA23935 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:44:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701101744.KAA23935@mail.xmission.com> Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 10 Jan 1997 17:44:55 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:45:31 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 10:02 AM 1/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'm also interested in the Motronic. Not from a business point of view just >because I have one and am always interested in how these things work.That's >why I'm a member of this list. Another chap on this list has been very >helpful with location of tables etc. Unless you understand the underlying MATH, the tables will be misinterpreted.. completely .. like most of the aftermarket chip manufacturers have.. >Ok, so lets start with the processor instruction set. It's not standard >8051 - I've got that far. Where can I find the instruction set of the >processor? You gave us one "gift", the processor id 80c515. Thats a siemens >or phillips chip I guess. I'll take a look on their sites. Is it's >instruction set as elusive as the famous intel 8061 ins set? Nope .. 80515 instruction set is public.. >I have a dump of the eprom. You eluded to the fact that there is code in >the processor in ROM. Is that true? Presumably without the special >equipment I stand little or no chance of getting a dump. You don't NEED the dump.. you need to unfold the code though.. DO this.. take the first 8k of code in the EPROM and copy it to the END of the EPROM image so that you have 40k.. not just 32k Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 18:01:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA05366; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:58:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA05361; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:58:05 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.228 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vilIJ-0009EtC; Fri, 10 Jan 97 10:03 PST Message-ID: <32D6145E.7E0@electriciti.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:05:22 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EFI digest Subject: Thanks y'all Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I want to let everyone on the list how much I appreciate the wealth of info I have received from my many TPI questions. And wish to say "thank you" to those who took the time to anwser my occasionaly redundant questions. You have helped me ought a lot more then I ever expected. I have decided to give you all a break and pester the local junk yards now. Until another question(or two or three...) arise, Thanks a million, -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 19:04:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA05841; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:01:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05836; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:01:35 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.200]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA15859 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701101901.NAA15859@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: ion to TPI...More ??? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You're too polite Peter. I'm following this EFI related thread and I for one would like know more. Please post it:) GMD At 08:24 AM 1/9/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Anywho I don't want to get anyone mad at me so if you have any more >questions email me directly. > >But I really recomend JTRS book. > >GL to u: peter > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 19:04:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA05793; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:57:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05788; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:57:21 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.200]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA15701 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:57:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:57:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701101857.MAA15701@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You all will like Fred, he's a good fella with plenty of money, knowledge, and time :) I think I've converted him to the GM way, he is (was) a Ford man. GMD At 11:24 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I just signed up to this mailing list at the recommendation of George Dailey, >so thanks George for a great lead on the GM EFI system(s). > >I've been reading throughout the day some of the archived messages associated >with the >late model GM ALDL data stream, but I couldn't find any conclusion to this >message thread, i.e. a schematic for interfacing a PC to the GM computer, >associated software, and GM codes. > >If anyone has this information, I'd be most grateful. As a "consolation >prize", if this information/interface is not readily available, I would be >more than happy to participate in creating the schematic, if I can get hold >of some additional interfacing requirements. I'm fairly familiar with the >Motorola 68HC11E9 chip, and its my belief that the GM computer uses one from >the same family. Also, I've built quite a number of embedded systems (from >an electronics point of view only, software came from a co-developing pal of >mine) in the past, and I can't imagine creating an interface that difficult. > >Info on me: (the short version) >I'm transplanting a FWD GM powertrain (3.8L supercharged) to the rear of a >"homebrew" mid-engine vehicle I'm putting together. In less than a week, >I'll have a web site with all the info on my project, so I won't take up your >space and time explaining it all here. I have skills in electronics (though >from a hobbyist realm), embedded systems (also hobbyist), LAN/WAN networking, >C programming, and some mechanical ability. > >Any leads or information would be appreciated. Thanks for your >consideration, > >Frederic Breitwieser >"HomeBrew Automotive" mailing list guy > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 19:26:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA06000; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:20:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05995; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:20:55 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA25708; Fri, 10 Jan 97 11:09:42 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma025701; Fri, 10 Jan 97 11:09:15 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA11798 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:16:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:16:38 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701101916.LAA11798@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM Hall Effect Sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A few years back there was a discussion on failing Hall effect sensors in EFI applications. I have looked in the Hotrod archives for this discussion, as John D'A was the author, and have not found it. But, I remember him saying that they were easy to replace with a more robust, and much cheaper, very similar industrial controller. The only reason this sticks in my mind is that Mr. Hall and I graduated from the same physics department, and I thus have a slight affinity for Hall effect sensors. Bonus points for those that can name the school. Perhaps Mr. Williams remembers the article and can name the replacement controller. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 19:26:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA06010; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:24:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06005; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:24:31 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 10 Jan 1997 19:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 10 Jan 1997 19:24:30 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id NAA16944 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:24:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:24:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701101924.NAA16944@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi . . . . . >Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain >gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from >time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based How do MAF meters work? I understand they typically use heated wires?? Why not use thermistors (slower response?? -- but larger R change and easier to instrument .. ??). I suspect that they have long ago been tried and discarded -- true?? Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 19:43:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA06051; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:35:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06046; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:35:45 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16330; Fri, 10 Jan 97 11:39:45 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA11651; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:32:16 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970110133258.00697b04@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:33:00 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: RE: Miller Cycle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:44 AM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >I am not sure how the following paragraph applies: > >>The economy benefits of the Miller Cycle are certainly attractive in an >>automobile, but a special cam is a big step that can be avoided. Rather >> than modifying the cam and valvetrain, a servo system can control the >>throttle advance so that the MAP is limited to safe value. The whole >>system can be designed, built, debugged and tested prior to tearing the >>engine down to install the high compression pistons. The risk and cost >>of >an incomplete project is quite low. > >>MAP would provide the feedback and knock detection would determine the >>maximum MAP. This should be a quick and flexible home The cam is the whole point. You aren't trying to change the MAP, you are trying to make the power stroke longer than the compression stroke. The reduction in compression also benefits the addition of a supercharger, and in turn the addition of a supercharger eliminates the refersion pulses so that a MAF can be used. It all works well together, but the difference in compression vs power is what makes it a miller cycle. > >Perhaps it is the use of the term "throttle advance" that is throwing me. >Perhaps you mean to say that you can attenuate the efi flow electronically? >Thanks again for the useful discussions. > >paul timmerman > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 20:19:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06187; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:14:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.telebyte.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06182; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:14:13 -0500 Received: (from cdenzler@localhost) by pacific.telebyte.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA11018 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:08:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:08:41 -0800 From: Chris Denzler Message-Id: <199701102008.MAA11018@pacific.telebyte.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Nippondenso.... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Land Shark said: > > Agreed.. but STEP ONE is to disassemble the SOFTWARE, not just > "find the maps"... > > I'll help anyone who wants to do it the RIGHT way!! > > (which is NOT the easy way!) Ok, now. I want to do it the RIGHT way, but at the moment that isn't possible. I had a Ducati 851 a few years ago (Weber/Marelli ECU) and wrote a disassembler for the 6803/6801 processor. Dis'ed the code, spent months examining the control flow and function of the 'spaghetti code' and commenting around 1% of it until I gave up. It seems like from the software side only, you can only figure out so much before you need a scope and a logic analyzer. Now. I was lucky enough to get an EPROM dump from a Nippondenso ECU, as fitted to a 1997 Suzuki TL1000S. No idea what the CPU is, the ECU was potted with some RTV-like stuff. I have isolated some maps, which lie right near the beginning of the address space of the EPROM. When I take delivery of my TL1000, (maybe march) I can possibly dig out the potting and identify the cpu. Until then, it's pretty much speculation. Could the Denso ECU possibly be the same as other auto applications? Does Denso typically design in any "tricks" like checksums to thwart reverse engineering? Any other ideas to keep me busy for the next couple of months until I get an ECU in my hands? TIA, - Chris From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 20:19:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06194; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:15:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06189; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:15:10 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv1-21.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv1-21.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.53]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA18619 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:15:07 -0800 Message-ID: <32D6C65D.7D72@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:44:45 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <199701101924.NAA16944@mail.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tom Cloud wrote: > > . . . . . > >Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain > >gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from > >time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based > > How do MAF meters work? I understand they typically use heated wires?? > Why not use thermistors (slower response?? -- but larger R change and > easier to instrument .. ??). I suspect that they have long ago been > tried and discarded -- true?? > > Tom Cloud I don't have the response curve to prove it, but thermistors are generally much too slow for such an application. Also, a thermistor changes resistance with temperature, so you cannot use it by itself for flow measurement. You would have to have a mass and a heater to heat it, so you can measure a temperature. After all that you end up doing what the hot wire does, except much slower and at higher cost. Regarding the method of measurement using the strain gauge, the common way is to use a wheatstone bridge. Maybe both strain gauges (the one in the flow and the one outside the flow) can be wired into the same bridge. I'll have to look at that, but it seems to me this method makes use of VERY robust hardware. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 20:23:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06231; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:21:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06226; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:21:18 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d17.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.209]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18297 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701102021.OAA18297@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've done a few or these in my time. Steve's info is good except for the crimping of connectors. I would use solder and heat shrink tubing. It fits under the loom much better and gives superior joint and is cheaper. I made over 60 of these terminations on my home built and many more on my TPI conversion. Thank me later GMD At 09:06 AM 1/10/97 -0600, you wrote: >>>....Then when you make the connections it's all there in front of you. > Twist the wires at first until everything seems OK, then crimp and tape >them. Pull the harness apart, you can put it back into the plastic sheath >later. good luck. > >--steve > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 20:48:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06340; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:43:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06335; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:43:44 -0500 Received: from nnsa.eds.com (nnsa.eds.com [130.174.31.78]) by ns1.eds.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA26344; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from kotsv1.delcoelect.com (koedvx02.delcoelect.com [144.250.32.3]) by nnsa.eds.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14913; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kodeln12.delcoelect.com by kotsv1.delcoelect.com (PMDF V5.1-4 #8480) with SMTP id <01IE1X1825VK004RDC@kotsv1.delcoelect.com>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:34:12 EST Received: by kodeln12.delcoelect.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Release 1.0.1) id 0525641B.0070A97D ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:30:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:30:23 -0500 From: Jeffrey R Muehl Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question To: JohnH@ixc-comm.net Cc: diy_efi, ws6transam@voyager.net Message-id: <"0525641B:006EBC8E.00"@kodeln12.delcoelect.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="0__=lk9RwFJqLUFfXLUt91ifZw4Tlu5DF7iizmem8A64yoMuCI8IONEP1Djx" X-Lotus-FromDomain: DELCO Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi --0__=lk9RwFJqLUFfXLUt91ifZw4Tlu5DF7iizmem8A64yoMuCI8IONEP1Djx Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Why not an '85 TPI? Because it uses a MAFS module? Can the '85 TPI use the '89 chip with the same modifications? If I remember correctly the '85 is a 32K PROM and '86-'89 were 128K PROMs. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff >From: JohnH @ ixc-comm.net >Date: 01/10/97 09:55:52 AM CST >Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question > --0__=lk9RwFJqLUFfXLUt91ifZw4Tlu5DF7iizmem8A64yoMuCI8IONEP1Djx >You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug >the left fuel rail connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. >If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch >the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different >bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, >you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the >coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting >rid of the cold start injector. >---------- >From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] >Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question >Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans >am. >Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not >require you to modify the intake manifold. >To: >diy_efi @ coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >ws6transam @ voyager.net >cc: >Category: >(Embedded image moved to file: PIC24110.PCX) --0__=lk9RwFJqLUFfXLUt91ifZw4Tlu5DF7iizmem8A64yoMuCI8IONEP1Djx Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="PIC24110.PCX" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgMBAQAAAAA4AgMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABSAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADl/9L/yf/F/8L/geUA0gDJAMUAAAGE5QDSAMkAxQAAAcHw5f/S/8n/xf/C /7g= --0__=lk9RwFJqLUFfXLUt91ifZw4Tlu5DF7iizmem8A64yoMuCI8IONEP1Djx-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:11:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06453; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:02:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06448; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:02:14 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id NAA01419 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:46:56 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id OAA12844 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:02:12 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id OAA14481 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:10:08 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:10:08 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970110140150.489712b0@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Engine warmup Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi My Holley Projection throttle body controller turns on O2 feedback while warmup enrichment is still on. The effect leans our the mixture and I get an occasional backkfire during gear shifts, an automatic transmission. There is no way to change the closed loop turn on, when the engine temp reaches 70 degrees. Holley suggested just enriching the warmup in the area where the backfire occurs. This helped some but I still get an occasional backfire or hesitation. Should I just keep upping the enrichment or are there other ways to help the problem? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:11:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06465; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:06:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06460; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:06:02 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA26908 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:05:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:05:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970110160522_1757500339@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-10 14:23:12 EST, you write: << You all will like Fred, he's a good fella with plenty of money, knowledge, and time :) I think I've converted him to the GM way, he is (was) a Ford man. >> Thanks for the compliment.. I still am a Ford man, however you presented me with a great solution to my mid-engine issue, and of course, I happened to fall upon a running '91 Buick . Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:11:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06446; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:01:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from goodall.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06441; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:01:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (kicker@localhost) by goodall.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW96.12) with SMTP id NAA03278 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: "S. Lastuka" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM Hall Effect Sensor In-Reply-To: <1997110123557641@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am on a Formula SAE team and we got one donated from Honeywell. If you lie and tell them you are on a formula SAE team they will probably give you one too. Talk to Bob Kostenbator at Honeywell 18005376945. If you are honest I think they cost around $20. Sean On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 gofast@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Regarding a different issue with my cars, I have a 91 Lotus Elan (Isuzu > Impulse Turbo 1.6L engine and FI). A few months ago, the Hall Effect Sensor > conked out, resulting in check engine lights coming on. This was covered by > Lotus under emmission warantee. However this is a common problem on these > cars, as numerous of my friends on the Lotus list with m100 Elans have had > this problem. > > Neither Lotus nor Isuzu sell the sensor separately - you have to buy the > whole cam angle sensor, and then fish out the hall effect sensor - a 10 > minute fix. However, the cam angle sensor costs over $300 from Lotus, and > $130 from Isuzu, and you dont even use the whole thing. > > The warrantee on these cars is going to go one of these days (5yr 50k), as, > I'm is sure, the replacement Hall Effect sensor. Lotus claims that they know > of no source to get just the Hall Effect sensor. > > I wonder if any of you guys might know of some sources for such raw FI > parts, so I can research the issue while my car is still running. I am also > interested in helping my fellow Elan owners with this issue, and will be > posting all the info on the Elan FAQ and lotus-digest. > > Thanks in advance. > > Samir Shah > gofast@ix.netcom.com > Stamford, CT > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:13:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06492; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:10:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06487; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:10:24 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA05446 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:10:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:10:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970110161022_978967362@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-10 15:43:42 EST, you write: << crimping of connectors. I would use solder and heat shrink tubing. It fits >> I would absolutely agree with this... soldering is fairly resistant to corrosion, while butt connectors are not... moisture can get in between the crimp and at some point, the connection becomes weak, affecting the performance of your harness. This is most noticable with wires under the hood, and might affect your readings off sensors (such as the O2 sensor) that have a very small change from end to end of what the sensor is monitoring (O2 sensors vary typically from .1v to .9v, not a large range). On cases where a single wire or a pair of wires might have to be disconnected at some point, its perfectly okay to use a spade connector and socket, however instead of crimping the wire in the spade, solder it on. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:14:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06524; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:11:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06519; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:11:28 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17052; Fri, 10 Jan 97 13:15:10 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA16816; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:07:25 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970110150809.006a05e8@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:08:28 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:57 PM 1/10/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I've been reading throughout the day some of the archived messages associated >>with the >>late model GM ALDL data stream, but I couldn't find any conclusion to this >>message thread, i.e. a schematic for interfacing a PC to the GM computer, >>associated software, and GM codes. >> >>If anyone has this information, I'd be most grateful. As a "consolation >>prize", if this information/interface is not readily available, I would be >>more than happy to participate in creating the schematic, if I can get hold >>of some additional interfacing requirements. I'm fairly familiar with the >>Motorola 68HC11E9 chip, and its my belief that the GM computer uses one from >>the same family. Also, I've built quite a number of embedded systems (from >>an electronics point of view only, software came from a co-developing pal of >>mine) in the past, and I can't imagine creating an interface that difficult. I imagine that everything the list knows is in the archive, as this topic comes up periodically and generates a fair amount of discussion. Check it out thoroughly, and check out an archive that I have located at http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/aldl.txt --steve >> >>Info on me: (the short version) >>I'm transplanting a FWD GM powertrain (3.8L supercharged) to the rear of a >>"homebrew" mid-engine vehicle I'm putting together. In less than a week, >>I'll have a web site with all the info on my project, so I won't take up your >>space and time explaining it all here. I have skills in electronics (though >>from a hobbyist realm), embedded systems (also hobbyist), LAN/WAN networking, >>C programming, and some mechanical ability. >> >>Any leads or information would be appreciated. Thanks for your >>consideration, >> >>Frederic Breitwieser >>"HomeBrew Automotive" mailing list guy >> >> > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:17:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06548; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:14:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06543; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:14:41 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA29087 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA03803 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:14:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:14:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970110160941.2667b252@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > . . . . . >>Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain >>gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from >>time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based > I was the fellow who proposed the idea about the strain gauges. >How do MAF meters work? I understand they typically use heated wires?? >Why not use thermistors (slower response?? -- but larger R change and >easier to instrument .. ??). I suspect that they have long ago been >tried and discarded -- true?? > > >Tom Cloud Ok, MAFs work on a heat loss principle. If you take a wire and heat it, then there is a loss due to convection (the forced loss far outweighs the natural convection component usually). (There is also a loss due to radiation). With most things neglected, the loss depends on flow^2 (I think). Now the problem is that different ambient temps will affect loss so they typically use two wires. Dont heat the first, just use it to find ambient, and heat the second to some fixed delta-T abouve ambient. The power required (you cam measure the current and voltage applied to the wire) is now a square or square-root looking funcion of air flow. This method doesn't actually measure MASS flow, but some other terms as well. If I ever dig up my flow book from Omega, I would tell you what it DOES measure. You usually use very thin Pt wires as they are corrosion resistant, have low thermal mass (for fast response), and are relatively linear. Another way to really measure mass is to place a heated wire upstream (dumping some fixed P into the fluid) in a tube, and measure the delta-T it produces downstream. The Omega flow book also explains why this is the case. Omega doesn't sell any of these sensors for airflow measurements, but I dont know why. It may take a prohibitive amount of power to produce a reasonable delta-T or something. Some automotive MAFs look like they have little sensing tubes that hold the actual sensor, which leads me to believe this is how they do it. I have seen MAF replacements for Porsches and they simply have a sensor stuck out into the airstream, which seems like they are using the first method. Don't know for sure. Now that we are again mentioning MAFs and strain gauges in the same mail, why not use a simple strain gauge to determine the flow direction and corrent the 'flow rectification' the MAF returns. Simply switch in a -1 amplifier when the flow is negative. All flames appreciated. SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 21:45:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06653; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:39:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06648; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:39:17 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:39:17 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFF04.0F158040@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:39:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01BBFF04.0F158040@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:39:16 -0700 Encoding: 41 TEXT, 53 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: Land Shark Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 10:45 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: BMW Motronic 1.1 >Ok, so lets start with the processor instruction set. It's not standard >8051 - I've got that far. Where can I find the instruction set of the >processor? You gave us one "gift", the processor id 80c515. Thats a siemens >or phillips chip I guess. I'll take a look on their sites. Is it's >instruction set as elusive as the famous intel 8061 ins set? Nope .. 80515 instruction set is public.. The Siemens docs say the 80C515 has the same ins set as the 8051. I was under the impression (maybe wrong!!) that the Motronic cpu had an enhanced ins set. What's the scoop? >I have a dump of the eprom. You eluded to the fact that there is code in >the processor in ROM. Is that true? Presumably without the special >equipment I stand little or no chance of getting a dump. You don't NEED the dump.. you need to unfold the code though.. DO this.. take the first 8k of code in the EPROM and copy it to the END of the EPROM image so that you have 40k.. not just 32k OK, now where in memory does the eprom get addressed. Not at 0000h presumably as the internal rom is there, right? What is the entry point on the eprom. The first location? Is the on-board rom responsible for the code unfolding and checksums? Jim TIA Peter S begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A(5`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!4```!213H@0DU7($UO=')O;FEC(#$N,0#R!0$%@ ,`#@`` M`,T'`0`*``X`)P`0``4`*0$!(( #``X```#-!P$`"@`.``<`#0`%``8!`0F M`0`A````.$9$-# W1CDW-S9!1# Q,4(S1D$P,$%!,# S.#5".#4`) 8PM9,3;;"J #8'0%D 5 +2"'"H?7'SL, M," &1@-A.B&.( 9I#((@3 !P9!31"L!K?R$O(CT&8 (P(V\D>R,@:4!D87DL M($H`<'49"L!Y(!K *F Q.3FB-RKQ.C0U$W!-)>\9(CU4;R@O)'MD:7G27PW M:4 %H'47, ;0`BX)\&-A\'%<(,`2 &/D]KX2I@L(8$" 84!A M=00@`B \8.0B9P:0="(J8#Q-)7#5'?!C/_ U/A!40.$$('YA.P`(D > !C$_ M5@6Q<'\Q8!40!2 $(!&P!2!"`6>W"E $$#X1)Q41`9!K/&"S2- 7,&]K1A$\ M,FD%P/\`D" P2V($(#P`/E$_5D+.[F$$(!4`1?!I0&%/H3Q"?T$@!&!%\0N M(# #(!WP-C<<8#TA/=(_-\P'L&]P_3Q@+CX0/](KT$+.! `\ OU'64$8_ MTCX1.^!/H74E8+L$D$)T;2 `/,$]HB@`P!1Y8CQ@=S5!4O\QP#Y16X,%H%-@4ETXKSF_WCY"$!' M4"(P`'5><$.V^F4@`6T^$$5B3]$-L$)A_SL@4(0@46 60:%5,06@#;#//1$_ M1SQ.!_!/34V#8!1U/6!E14!07I%GP &@;*\JX#OR"&!@1'-3<&,',?$_1V5Q M=04@22$%0$(0]S[#.S \`'0[0$.P!< ^@/=*H6(20[)G$@`]D!J@9X5.+E)M M16):`&XG!4!.N$5%1#PS=!,^$'E%<>]&,&ED7< "$&Q"9&LS;T+,9VA3H%)M M1$\\,00`_U.A2^-0@TT`,:!'X$R!0]#S:S8\0D50;4%AH25P!:".<"K@/ !I MAD5.1%+6]T/%?-0'<&%S<#L"0--V\MMG0QZ :U.A/H)J1? %0#PS,B7>5N]7 M_QQ"3TOW*F ^@ ?@=VJT`Z '@ 1@/RK16@`'D6@W@FZU4%51,@2@<#&'\O]5,6JC*F %$'CP4D!B\XO5YV'1 M-R JX'!O43%,E6AF_UE">U07,$'0/9)276V3D8X0`('_ M`F!0H06Q>"=WM'.S?4(4\/1C:VZA Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06684; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:55:25 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id PAA14919; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:54:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xmaa14913; Fri, 10 Jan 97 15:54:42 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BBFF0E.EEABC480@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:57:08 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'Jeffrey R Muehl'" Cc: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'ws6transam@voyager.net'" Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:57:25 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The '85 just has too much variance from the later models, including differing sensors and a different serial rate in the ALDL that is sufficiently slow to make it almost useless for diagnosis purposes. The '85 CANNOT use the '89 chip OR computer, unless you modify the entire system to '86 or later. No, the '86 thru '89 also use MAF. The '89 just doesn't use the cold start injector, it is programmed into the PROM. Note that there are other good things about the '89 Mapping, also, that are better than the '86. ---------- From: Jeffrey R Muehl[SMTP:JRMUEHL@mail.delcoelect.com] Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 2:30 PM To: John Hess Cc: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; ws6transam@voyager.net Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question Why not an '85 TPI? Because it uses a MAFS module? Can the '85 TPI use the '89 chip with the same modifications? If I remember correctly the '85 is a 32K PROM and '86-'89 were 128K PROMs. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff >From: JohnH @ ixc-comm.net >Date: 01/10/97 09:55:52 AM CST >Subject: RE: Mike's TPI question > <><> From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 22:15:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA06732; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:09:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA06727; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:09:47 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id OAA29192 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14820; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:09:39 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:09:38 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: RE: mtbe, hc05 In-Reply-To: <199701092354.SAA11545@serv01.net-link.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > e without pinging. > >MTBE as far as I know doesn't have any toxic side affects. It's the > >active ingredient in "104 octane boost". > >cheers > >jw > > > I accessed the "104 Octane Boost" web page and they say there is NO MTBE in > their products....what's up? > > > Bill > > Interesting. It used to. I ran a mass spec on it back in undergrad and identified MTBE as the major ingredient (~80%). I'll hit the Merck index and check out this toxicity stuff. Maybe they stopped using it for a reason? Also a variant of MTBE (which I can't remember right now) is probably what they have uesed instead. cheers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 10 23:52:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07104; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:42:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07099; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:41:57 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial44.voyager.net [207.74.103.44]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA04594; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:40:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D70DAF.2995@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:49:03 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hess CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Hess wrote: > > You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 > Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug the left fuel rail > connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. > > If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch > the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different > bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, > you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the > coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting > rid of the cold start injector. > > ---------- > From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question > > Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans > am. > > Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not > require you to modify the intake manifold. Okay, okay, I get the picture! Mike: Ignore my advice. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 00:04:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07157; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:57:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07152; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:57:29 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial44.voyager.net [207.74.103.44]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA07571; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:56:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D70DAF.2995@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:49:03 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hess CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Hess wrote: > > You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 > Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug the left fuel rail > connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. > > If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch > the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different > bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, > you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the > coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting > rid of the cold start injector. > > ---------- > From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question > > Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans > am. > > Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not > require you to modify the intake manifold. Okay, okay, I get the picture! Mike: Ignore my advice. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 00:06:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA07171; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:03:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07166; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:03:18 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial44.voyager.net [207.74.103.44]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id TAA08740; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:01:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D7141D.20D0@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:16:29 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ics@carib-link.net CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: re: EFI training Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Michelle: I have a book that is published by Motorbooks International called: "Fuel Injection: Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications" It is authored by Jeff Hartman, 1993. ISBN 0-87938-743-2 It gets into several aftermarket systems, as well as GM TPI. It is geared to aftermarket systems, but offers sound information on the theory and practice of fuel injection. Bosch offers a few good books on fuel injection as well, such as the Automotive Handbook, available from SAE. This book offers a whole wealth of information on car design in general, not just fuel injection. Because it is written by Bosch, it covers the Motronic system in it's EFI chapter. I am sure you will receive many other titles from other writers, but these are my two favorites. -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 00:15:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA07221; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:10:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07213; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:09:57 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial44.voyager.net [207.74.103.44]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id TAA10039; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:08:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D71588.54C1@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:22:32 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jforbes@primenet.com CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: cyl's 2 & 5 misfire Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Perhaps the injectors are ok, but they are not getting sufficient current from the injector drivers? Broken, or crossed wire? just brainsorming. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 00:56:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA07295; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:53:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail1.halcyon.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07290; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:53:06 -0500 Received: from coho.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA08851; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:52:36 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:53:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Samuel Y. Stoney" To: diy_efi Subject: Japanese EFI In-Reply-To: <199701110006.AAA07199@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi folks, I'm working with a couple of friends trying to understand the maps in the eprom of a 2 stage EFI system built for a Suzuki twin. the unit is Nippondenso, I'm pretty sure. We have isolated what appear to be about 16 different maps of varying resolution and are having a bit of trouble digesting the data we have. Anybody have any experience decyphering a similar car system? Anybody reccomend a good book? Thanks, Sam Sam Stoney SamCo Racing "When indecisive or in doubt - race in circles, scream, and shout." From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 01:22:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA07368; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:19:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from primenet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA07363; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:19:07 -0500 Received: from ip217.fhu.primenet.com (ip217.fhu.primenet.com [198.68.41.217]) by primenet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA22161; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:18:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:18:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701110118.SAA22161@primenet.com> X-Sender: jforbes@mailhost.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Daniel Burk From: jforbes@primenet.com (J. Forbes) Subject: Re: cyl's 2 & 5 misfire Cc: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 08:22 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Daniel Burk wrote: >Perhaps the injectors are ok, but they are not getting sufficient current >from the injector drivers? Broken, or crossed wire? > > just brainsorming. Thanks! The injectors were bad...put in some others and it runs pretty good. The injectors on each side of the engine are wired in parallel, and I checked all the wiring. So, if a driver had been bad, the 4 injectors on one side would not be working....which wasnt the case. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim and Janet Forbes jforbes@primenet.com Sierra Vista, AZ URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 02:48:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA07499; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:39:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA07493; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:39:26 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD46.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.102]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA22115 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:39:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:39:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701110239.SAA22115@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: MIKE"S quetion Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike Read your second post. Need shop manual for the donor TPI unit, probably will have to modify harness from donor car. Depends on 15 ip connector pin out. You can use your large diameter HEI if it has four wires coming out. May have to change connector. The stock eprom works ok to start with,need to work out bugs in conversion. Then start changing prom info. Jim Any hints or help you can share would be deeply appreciated. The after market proms are setup for cars, not pickups. Would like to learn enough to change prom. I'm mechanically/electrically inclined-not very good at programming. What tools, direction , knowledge in needed ? Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 03:17:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA07596; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:12:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from verdi.jlc.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA07591; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:12:02 -0500 Received: from pm2-144.dialup.jlc.net (pm2-144.dialup.jlc.net [199.201.159.144]) by verdi.jlc.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06803 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:17:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:17:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701110317.WAA06803@verdi.jlc.net> X-Sender: afairbnk@mailhost.jlc.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: afairbnk@jlc.net (Andrew Fairbank) Subject: Re: Japanese EFI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >Hi folks, Hey Sam, I was just sending some mail from Sue when your diy message came thru. What are you doing? sorry we missed you. We may have passed each other on 95 or 84. Oh well. I'm about to learn how to program little processor chips but we are looking for ones which can be programmed in basic or C- two languages I have yet to learn. I built a filter backwash controller using analog electronics and 4000 series logic recently which was fun. Am currently building a 650 Triumph sidecar . -Andrew From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 03:54:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA07764; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:51:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA07759; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:51:30 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.13) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:58:49 -0500 Message-ID: <32D73720.292E@clarityconnect.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:45:52 -0800 From: "Scot A. Sealander" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: cyl's 2 & 5 misfire References: <199701110118.SAA22161@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi J. Forbes wrote: > The injectors were bad...put in some others and it runs pretty good. The > injectors on each side of the engine are wired in parallel, and I checked > all the wiring. So, if a driver had been bad, the 4 injectors on one side > would not be working....which wasnt the case. In your case, if a driver was bad, all 8 injectors would not have worked! Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 04:58:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA07860; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:48:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA07855; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:48:23 -0500 Received: from pme1-12.iul-ccs.com (pme1-12.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.45]) by atlantis (8.6.8.1/SCO5) with SMTP id VAA06643 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:46:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:46:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199701110446.VAA06643@atlantis> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:44 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Tom Cloud wrote: >> How do MAF meters work? I understand they typically use heated wires?? >> Why not use thermistors (slower response?? -- but larger R change and >> easier to instrument .. ??). I suspect that they have long ago been >> tried and discarded -- true?? >> >> Tom Cloud And Mazda replied: >I don't have the response curve to prove it, but thermistors are >generally much too slow for such an application. Also, a thermistor >changes resistance with temperature, so you cannot use it by itself for >flow measurement. You would have to have a mass and a heater to heat it, >so you can measure a temperature. After all that you end up doing what >the hot wire does, except much slower and at higher cost. Thermistors don't need to be slow. It depends a lot on the size and thermal mass of the thermistor body. Fenwal and YSI sell lots of units that are only 1mm in diam, very fast response. In any case, a hot wire anemometer is just a more rugged type of thermistor, which uses more current and has less sensitivity. Also, a little slower response may give better averaging of transients and a smoother signal... Thermistor mass flowmeters are very common in the instrumentation world, and can be very accurate indeed. Usual method is to have two identical thermistors in a "bridge" configuration, one in the air stream and one out. This compensates for any ambient temp effects. The thermistor in the airstream is purposely heated to raise it's temp, and the drive current is "servoed" to maintain a constant voltage across the sensor. As airflow increases, it takes more current to keep this voltage (and therm temp, BTW) constant, and the change in drive current is simply measured to determine airflow. Exactly the way a MAF works, but a MAF is a mass produced, limited accuracy unit made to be cheap and not particularly accurate. (BTW, there was some discussion I saw somewhere on how to make a hot-wire anemometer from a couple of #52 panel lamps, one with the glass envelope broken off...) regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 06:21:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA07994; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:19:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA07989; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:19:48 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyDb.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.43]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA05924 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:19:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:19:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701110619.WAA05924@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: Smog Stuff Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike I will have to find the phone number for GM SPORT SALVAGE, post later. The problem the ref found were minor- 1. Air valve for cats was capped- needed to remove cap, muffler ok. My chassis was not setup for cats. 2. Check engine lite has to read check engine- went to u-pull-it, found one from newer car. 3. Had trouble code set in memory- opps forgot to clear before inspection. 4. Didn't pass sniffer test- Used a 180 deg thermo- changed to 195 deg passed easy. All in all the ref was fairly impressed with my first inspection-most all the emission equipment was in place and working. He had seen several conversion with no or little emission equipment-including a hacked TPI unit converted from MAF to MAP from a local shop. Reading JTR book several times helped greatly. Have shop manual for my pickup, 86 Camaro- got to know both wiring diagrams very well. Still not done with fine details. Recently changed my 86 eprom to a 89 eprom to remove cold start injector. Warm restarts much better now! Last bit of fabrication is a aluminum fan shroud. The main part of conversion was as follows-gather parts, info six months. Modify Camaro\truck wire harness into one "stock like" harness three months. Plumb truck to use high pressure and return line for fuel. My truck has dual tanks, low pressure pump, small gas tank, high pressure pump, three fuel filters, cross over valve- about a month. Install TPI unit- finish MAF install(had to remove stock fan shroud) - change a few minor details-three day weekend- this was the only time truck was not drivable. Spent about a week clearing up little problems that came up. Had friend in local shop scan the data for problems- He was concerned about block learn numbers. Drove the truck for about four months- then went to smog ref- two trips in about two weeks. Its been about three years now-enjoy cold start\running, low end torque,general disability( once in awhile drive a carb vehicle and go nuts). In the process of helping friend do same type conversion to his truck. If your going to be in the Redding area drop me an e-mail so we can get together. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 08:08:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA08208; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:02:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA08203; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:02:41 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-91-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.101]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13903 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:01:24 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970111070308.0091274c@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:03:08 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I think it was in an issue of EDN, a few months back. I think their was also one that used 2 transistors, but the problem of response time came up... Sandy >(BTW, there was some discussion I saw somewhere on how to make a hot-wire >anemometer from a couple of #52 panel lamps, one with the glass envelope broken >off...) > > >regards >dn >dnorquay@iul-ccs.com > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 16:34:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA08892; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:24:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA08887; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:24:28 -0500 Received: from warloch (p4s21.beaches.net [206.240.81.150]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04981 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:24:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701111624.KAA04981@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: octane booster Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:21:02 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > >>So would I......just tell me where to buy it. My local aviation facility > >now requies an "N" number (aircraft ID) before purchase will be granted. > > OK, so pluck a number off some Piper Cub **that isn't based at the > facility** and use that number. They just need a number right? This should > work if they don't make you show any paperwork. Call your old out-of-town > college buddy and have him get some random number off a plane at the airport > in his town. Learn some aircraft-speak and you should be able to > "social-engineer" yourself some avgas no problem. The main reason for requiring an aircraft number is to cover their butt. AVGAS has no road use taxes added and selling it to be used in a street vehicle would be a definite no-no. However if you let them know it is for your race car, which would "never" see street use, and you bring in fuel cans, you should have no problem buying 10-30 gallons at a time. I've done it this way for years at many different airports. They just want to make sure your no using it on the street. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 16:48:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA08924; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:45:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA08919; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:45:11 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d30.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.222]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA29343 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:44:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:44:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701111644.KAA29343@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Smog Stuff Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I know what you'r saying Vance. It seams like every car I drive is way under powered now. I'm spoiled rotten! Have you installed the O.D. tranny yet? GMD At 10:19 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: Its been about three >years now-enjoy cold start\running, low end torque,general disability( once >in awhile drive a carb vehicle and go nuts). > >Vance > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 18:34:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA09054; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:31:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA09049; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:31:16 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.24) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:38:38 -0500 Message-ID: <32D8011D.195E@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:07:41 -0800 From: "Scot A. Sealander" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic References: <199701091511.NAA29321@phantom.pix.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi thor@pixie.co.za wrote: > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information > which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made > to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I > believe, is not in the spirit of this group. I respectfully disagree. > Remeber, there may be someone out there who also has the requested > information, and is willing to share it. Interesting. The only people who I have found that want to "share it" are those who the info cost them nothing. Nothing, as in no expense, no sweat, no long hours pouring over code or ECM hardware. In other words, they got an illegal copy of say, a GM calibration document and have no problem passing along someone else's effort. The info is not valuable to them, as they "paid" nothing for it. In Jim and Todd's case, I fully understand their reluctance to put it all that effort out front, and most would not understand it anyway! I have seen "read-it-in-a-magazine ECM experts" on various automotive mailing lists, who must have never seen a line of code, telling others how things work. Their mis-information is sometimes amazing. I responded to a TPS question once, and got a "Clearly, you have no knowledge here" response. It was because of the "common knowledge" that these experts continue to purpetuate. It takes a long time to stop urban legend.... Even book authors and magazine writers can put out mis-information. A popular book says "Rotating the TPS counterclockwise increases the voltage and results in a richer air/fuel ratio......" This is in error, but because it is published, I guess it is considered truth.... ;-) Or a recent magazine article that said "The oxygen sensor .... is the primary input to the fuel delivery system." Another serious error. Jim and Todd have taken the considerable time and effort it takes to really find out how the BMW/Porsche boxes function, (and did not read magazines to get there) and most here do not understand the time and serious effort involved, or their level of expertise at this. (Just ask the person who said they had 1% of code commented and gave up. The only real difference between Jim/Todd and this person may be that they did not give up! I like Jim's offer of help to those who would help themselves. It is admirable and shows true class in my opinion.... YMMV. Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 19:27:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA09177; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:24:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cliff.cris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09166; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:20 -0500 Received: from adt1 (cnc80696.concentric.net [206.173.116.96]) by cliff.cris.com (8.8.3/(96/11/08 1.11)) id OAA24553; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:19 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970111140753.0068a25c@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: adt1@pop3.cris.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:31 -0500 To: diy_efi From: adt1 Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain >gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from >time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based >on mounting a small object in the air flow path via an arm that has a >strain gauge. Increased air flow equates to change in the load cell >reading. To cancel out vehicle dynamics an identical setup outside the >flow path is used and the signals are subtracted. The resulting reading >needs to be corrected based on air temp since the drag force is a >function of air density, viscosity, velocity ^ 2. Knowing density (by >temp) and viscosity, we can calculate or look-up velocity, and knowing >velocity, area, and density, we can determine mass flow rate. > >Not too many people commented about his message unfortunately, and I >can't find the original posting. What are your thoughts? This approach to air flow measurement sounds very similar to a vane meter. Both the strain gauged arm and the vane meter rely on an aerodynamic drag force to deflect a spring. The deflection is measured (by a strain gauge in the first case and a potentiometer in the second) and then converted to mass flow rate. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just pointing out the similarity I see. It makes me wonder how big the sphere would have to be to get a good magnitude of deflection. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 19:27:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA09178; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:24:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cliff.cris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09172; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:22 -0500 Received: from adt1 (cnc80696.concentric.net [206.173.116.96]) by cliff.cris.com (8.8.3/(96/11/08 1.11)) id OAA24566; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:20 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970111141420.00695898@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: adt1@pop3.cris.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:32 -0500 To: diy_efi From: adt1 Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I think I've converted him to the GM way, he is (was) a Ford man. Doh! Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 19:59:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA09256; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:55:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gollum.globalnet.co.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA09251; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:55:11 -0500 Received: from annabelle (client857c.globalnet.co.uk [194.126.85.124]) by gollum.globalnet.co.uk (8.7.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA08879 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:18:31 GMT Message-ID: <32D7F007.EBA@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:54:47 +0000 From: Roy Organization: SPECTRIC'S LTD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Cross Port " Air flow measurement " References: <9701022202.aa14941@device.data.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Kalle Pihlajasaari wrote: > > Hi, > > Here is a messsage from another list I'm on. > > It seem that ultrasonic flow measurement might be a out the box sollution > but I have no idea how these are implemented, perhaps someone in > the UK could make a few calls and let the list know what is on offer. > > Forwarded message: > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:51:20 +0800 (HKT) > > From: Stuart Smith > > Subject: Re: [STAMPS]..Wind Speed Devices!!!! Low Speed+ > > > > Solent of the UK make an ultrasonic anemometer rated down to 0.02m/s! The > > deluxe versions also do 3 dimensional direction output! The top end goes > > up to 90m/s as well. However it is somewhat more expensive than the > > conventional type, however they are well made and the accuracy specs. good > > as they have no friction etc... > > > > Contact: Biral Industrial & Research, UK > > Ph: +44 1275 847787 > > Fax: +44 1275 847303 > > e-mail: info@biral.com > > WWW: http://www.biral.com > > > > Stuart Smith > > Cheers > -- > Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@ip.co.za http://www.ip.co.za/ip > Interface Products P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa > + 27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: 402-7751 http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle > > DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer > > FROM Roy Spectrics Ltd > > These anerometers are of no use at all unless you have an inlet tract that can handle a device that is 2ft tall! They are marine devices fitted onto boats to measure windspeed and direction. They would also have difficulty in coping with the pulsations found in the inlet tract. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 21:00:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA09391; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:55:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id PAA09386; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:55:16 -0500 Received: from crl9.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA28348 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:55:04 -0800 Received: by crl9.crl.com id AA09572 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:53:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:53:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: -diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic In-Reply-To: <32D8011D.195E@clarityconnect.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Scot A. Sealander wrote: > In Jim and Todd's case, I fully understand their reluctance to put it all > that effort out front, and most would not understand it anyway! Right. But: What is so weird about this thread is that Jim and Todd [and a few of the other wizards] have been overwhelmingly generous with their time and information. If we keep whining, they will go away. Lets move on to how new questions, like how to get 50 more horsepower by reprogramming a chip or using a $20 exhaust sensor to... --Carter [who feels awful for having started this mess, when I was just trying to thank these guys] From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 22:46:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA09891; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:44:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA09886; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:44:05 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.62 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vjCEe-0009UUC; Sat, 11 Jan 97 14:49 PST Message-ID: <32D7A8E9.57B2@electriciti.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:51:26 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: More TPI questions from me References: <32D70DAF.2995@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > John Hess wrote: > > > > You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 > > Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug the left fuel rail > > connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. > > > > If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch > > the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different > > bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, > > you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the > > coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting > > rid of the cold start injector. > > > > ---------- > > From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] > > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question > > > > Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans > > am. > > > > Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not > > require you to modify the intake manifold. > > Okay, okay, I get the picture! > > Mike: Ignore my advice. What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. I know the 85 uses a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up units do not. Why is one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the cold start injector? What is the difference between the speed density system and the mass Air Flow? Would one be more desirable for my application? Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes the 89 EPROM, why? Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 11 23:51:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA09999; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:49:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eecis.udel.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA09994; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:48:56 -0500 Received: from ss26.ssnet.com by stimpy.eecis.udel.edu id aa29114; 11 Jan 97 23:45 GMT Message-ID: <32D82367.6738@eecis.udel.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:33:59 -0500 From: Dave Zug X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic energizer bunny References: <199701091511.NAA29321@phantom.pix.za> <32D8011D.195E@clarityconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > thor@pixie.co.za wrote: > > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information > which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made > to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I > believe, is not in the spirit of this group. Maybe someone could write a "our mission" statement about the list.. to tell others what the spirit of the list exactly is. when i was young (9 months ago) i thought i had found this really great spot where all these code pirates were that would give me all they had just because. (thats really what i thought, for a day or so.. others may think that at first) what i HAVE found was alot better.. people who have worked hard to get where they are and will guide you thru the basics and want you to learn the way they did.. thru hard work.. a good way (IMO) to get there, i have found. If someone had given me a dump of 8 or 9 ECM's completely commented, i would have looked for 10 minutes and decided that "i'll go sell chips now". (well not really, i do have scruples, you get my point). I can appreciate and confirm that the "gift" of the microprocessor identification (posted in another message about the MOTRONIC-BMW) was truly a GIFT, it took me 2 months to get my micro's I.D. and then another 4 to beleive it. another message i saw hit it right: read the prom, learn the language, know some automotice engineering theory, setup a test rig (or test car!) and start digging! and dont give up and have fun....and share some! oh, and visit http:/p3.net/~dzug/89gpturbo.html (my project's story) I'm really an amateur, but i know it. just give me a few years with this hobby ;-) the bunny thing isnt a cut, it just keeeeeps going (USA TV Commercial Humor) sorry :-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 00:02:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA10023; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:59:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eecis.udel.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA10018; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:59:09 -0500 Received: from ss26.ssnet.com by stimpy.eecis.udel.edu id aa29295; 11 Jan 97 23:56 GMT Message-ID: <32D82601.2ABB@eecis.udel.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:45:05 -0500 From: Dave Zug X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: move on: Thermisters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Carter Hendricks wrote: > > Lets move on to how > new questions, like how to get 50 more horsepower by reprogramming a chip > or using a $20 exhaust sensor to... With some talk I've seen/Read on thermister accuracy being comprimized by the voltage being passed thru it (and thus heat), is there any merit to 10k standard thermisters being used in place of the 3k standard I've seen? or are there manufacturere who DO use the 10k standard? (10k ARE better right?) It dont look hard to change ECM tables for this upgrade.. but if it were offered as an aftermarket upgrade, i'd think it was some marketing guys' idea. (point of diminishing returns again) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 00:58:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA10129; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:52:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA10124; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:52:53 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD2d.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.77]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA15110 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701120052.QAA15110@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: Phone Number Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike The phone number for GM SPORT SALVAGE is 408-432-8498. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 01:50:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA10231; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:48:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA10226; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:48:30 -0500 Received: from usr046.bcit.bc.ca (usr046.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.188.146]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA16976 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:48:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701120148.RAA16976@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 05:34:47 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: TPI questions from me Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chomp munchee_______----__--_-_--_---- >start injector? What is the difference between the speed density system >and the mass Air Flow? Would one be more desirable for my application? >Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes >the 89 EPROM, why? > >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > Hi Mike Reason people malign the 85 is not because of the components but because of the older ecm used. It is a C3 version #870 with a slower interface rate of 160 baud. Also uses an older processor a varaint of the 6801 motorola. The 86-89 ecms are an intermediate step. Capable of both 160 and 8192 baud aldl. The number for these ecms is #165. People perfer the 89 calibration since they think the cold start system which is independant of the ecm is failure prone. I have never had a problem but I suppose one can. Now these systems are all mass airflow sensor based. Thus you will always need a sensor that can cost you from 200 to 500 dollars when it goes. Of course maf will handle considerable engine changes without fussing. Now on too the 90-92 map driven systems. Lots of 730 ecms and harness in the millions of J cars. Celebs, cavaliers ect ect. I usually pay 80$ canadian here for a ecm and harness. The calibration is cheap. 50$ canadian and part number 1615348 gets you the calibration package. The map sensor is cheaper and doesn't require you to relocate your rad, just kiddin. Mind you map doesn't handle massive engine changes.. GL:peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 02:02:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA10255; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:59:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA10250; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:59:30 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.49 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vjFHn-0009y2C; Sat, 11 Jan 97 18:04 PST Message-ID: <32D7D6B7.40F@electriciti.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:06:48 +0000 From: Jones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Phone Number References: <199701120052.QAA15110@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jennifer Rose wrote: > > Mike > > The phone number for GM SPORT SALVAGE is 408-432-8498. > > Vance Thanks -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 02:07:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA10302; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 02:06:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA10297; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:06:45 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD2b.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.75]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA19268 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:06:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:06:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701120206.SAA19268@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: O.D. TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi George Now that you mention it- wanted to replace turbo 400 with a 4l80e trans. Just need to find one real cheap!! Had the wild notion my current ECM (165) could be use to control the new trans. Of course this is after learning to tweak code for better performance LOL. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 03:26:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA10421; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 03:23:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA10416; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:23:18 -0500 Received: from usr023.bcit.bc.ca (usr023.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.188.123]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA08680 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:23:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701120323.TAA08680@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:09:34 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Calpak and Boost Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All Just was interested if anyone had the eprom contents of the syclone calpak. If not ok just have to spend some money. Also if someone can send me the 89 tpi prom I could have a look and see what it would take to disable the egr and vats for you guys. With the syclone stuff I am getting serious about writing some code and adding it to the 730 tpi stuff. What I want to do is interecept the map a/d reads using a 2 bar map instead of a 1 bar. When pressure exceed baro or a calibrated value I intend to switch the open loop calibration to my own table. Also switch in an external driver for additional injectors when the boost from the vortech cuts in. This is similiar to what is done in the LT5 to switch in the extra injectors. I would like to see how the Map reads are done in the syclone. Tnx everybody: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 03:26:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA10410; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 03:17:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA10405; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:17:36 -0500 Received: from usr023.bcit.bc.ca (usr023.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.188.123]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA07374 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:17:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701120317.TAA07374@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:03:52 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: O.D. TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 06:06 PM 1/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >George > > Now that you mention it- wanted to replace turbo 400 with a 4l80e trans. >Just need to find one real cheap!! Had the wild notion my current ECM (165) >could be use to control the new trans. Of course this is after learning to >tweak code for better performance LOL. > >Vance Hi guys. I don't think it is within the capability of a #165 ecm to control the electronic trans. Not unless you considerably down grade the code that is running. Now a stand alone controller could be interesting. There actually isn't that much to control Later: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 14:41:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA11232; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:32:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iai.i-america.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id JAA11227; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:32:49 -0500 Received: from gfulton by iai.i-america.net via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) id JAA21089; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:29:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199701121429.JAA21089@iai.i-america.net> From: "Garrett Fulton" To: , Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #15 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:27:36 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Fellows, I've been lurking on this list for quite a while as I consider the information so fascinating and informative. I've now got a problem on a car that I can't solve and hope someone here can offer a little advice. It's a 92 Olds Cutlass Supreme with a 3.4 L 24 valve v-6. When it starts cold it goes to 3000 rpm and slowly, (about 10 seconds), drops back to about 1500. After staying at 1500 about 10 seconds, it increases to 1750 and the SES light comes on. I've read the codes with an OTC diag. tester and it's always the code for the IAC solenoid. I replaced it, but no help. Don't believe I have any vacuum leaks on the engine. According to the OEM serv. manual, the code is set for the IAC sol. when theres a difference of 200 rpm between commanded and actual rpm. That's exactly when the light comes on, at the 200 to 250 rpm jump when it's cold. If anyone has any ideas I'd sure appreciate hearing them. You might want to respond to my e-mail address as I know this is not the proper forum for this type of problem and I don't want to clog the list with it. Thank you Garrett Fulton gfulton@salisbury.net ---------- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #15 > Date: Sunday, January 12, 1997 5:00 AM > > > DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 12 January 1997 Volume 02 : Number 015 > > In this issue: > > Re: octane booster > Re: Smog Stuff > Re: Motronic > Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... > Re: GM ALDL Information > Re: Cross Port " Air flow measurement " > Re: Motronic > More TPI questions from me > Re: Motronic energizer bunny > move on: Thermisters > Phone Number > Re: TPI questions from me > Re: Phone Number > O.D. TRANS > Re: O.D. TRANS > Calpak and Boost > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "John Faubion" > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:21:02 -0600 > Subject: Re: octane booster > > > >>So would I......just tell me where to buy it. My local aviation > facility > > >now requies an "N" number (aircraft ID) before purchase will be granted. > > > > OK, so pluck a number off some Piper Cub **that isn't based at the > > facility** and use that number. They just need a number right? This > should > > work if they don't make you show any paperwork. Call your old out-of-town > > > college buddy and have him get some random number off a plane at the > airport > > in his town. Learn some aircraft-speak and you should be able to > > "social-engineer" yourself some avgas no problem. > > The main reason for requiring an aircraft number is to cover their butt. > AVGAS has no road use taxes added and selling it to be used in a street > vehicle would be a definite no-no. However if you let them know it is for > your race car, which would "never" see street use, and you bring in fuel > cans, you should have no problem buying 10-30 gallons at a time. I've done > it this way for years at many different airports. They just want to make > sure your no using it on the street. > > John Faubion > jfaubion@beaches.net > > ------------------------------ > > From: "George M. Dailey" > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:44:58 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: Smog Stuff > > I know what you'r saying Vance. It seams like every car I drive is way under > powered now. I'm spoiled rotten! Have you installed the O.D. tranny yet? > > GMD > > At 10:19 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: > Its been about three > >years now-enjoy cold start\running, low end torque,general disability( once > >in awhile drive a carb vehicle and go nuts). > > > > >Vance > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: "Scot A. Sealander" > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:07:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: Motronic > > thor@pixie.co.za wrote: > > > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information > > which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made > > to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I > > believe, is not in the spirit of this group. > > I respectfully disagree. > > > Remeber, there may be someone out there who also has the requested > > information, and is willing to share it. > > Interesting. The only people who I have found that want to "share it" are > those who the info cost them nothing. Nothing, as in no expense, no sweat, > no long hours pouring over code or ECM hardware. In other words, they got > an illegal copy of say, a GM calibration document and have no problem > passing along someone else's effort. The info is not valuable to them, as > they "paid" nothing for it. > > In Jim and Todd's case, I fully understand their reluctance to put it all > that effort out front, and most would not understand it anyway! > > I have seen "read-it-in-a-magazine ECM experts" on various automotive > mailing lists, who must have never seen a line of code, telling others how > things work. Their mis-information is sometimes amazing. I responded to a > TPS question once, and got a "Clearly, you have no knowledge here" > response. It was because of the "common knowledge" that these experts > continue to purpetuate. It takes a long time to stop urban legend.... > > Even book authors and magazine writers can put out mis-information. A > popular book says "Rotating the TPS counterclockwise increases the voltage > and results in a richer air/fuel ratio......" This is in error, but > because it is published, I guess it is considered truth.... ;-) Or a > recent magazine article that said "The oxygen sensor .... is the primary > input to the fuel delivery system." Another serious error. > > Jim and Todd have taken the considerable time and effort it takes to really > find out how the BMW/Porsche boxes function, (and did not read magazines to > get there) and most here do not understand the time and serious effort > involved, or their level of expertise at this. (Just ask the person who > said they had 1% of code commented and gave up. The only real difference > between Jim/Todd and this person may be that they did not give up! > > I like Jim's offer of help to those who would help themselves. It is > admirable and shows true class in my opinion.... YMMV. > > Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com > > ------------------------------ > > From: adt1 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:31 -0500 > Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... > > >Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain > >gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from > >time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based > >on mounting a small object in the air flow path via an arm that has a > >strain gauge. Increased air flow equates to change in the load cell > >reading. To cancel out vehicle dynamics an identical setup outside the > >flow path is used and the signals are subtracted. The resulting reading > >needs to be corrected based on air temp since the drag force is a > >function of air density, viscosity, velocity ^ 2. Knowing density (by > >temp) and viscosity, we can calculate or look-up velocity, and knowing > >velocity, area, and density, we can determine mass flow rate. > > > >Not too many people commented about his message unfortunately, and I > >can't find the original posting. What are your thoughts? > > This approach to air flow measurement sounds very similar to > a vane meter. Both the strain gauged arm and the vane meter > rely on an aerodynamic drag force to deflect a spring. The > deflection is measured (by a strain gauge in the first case > and a potentiometer in the second) and then converted to mass > flow rate. > > I'm not saying it's good or bad, just pointing out the > similarity I see. It makes me wonder how big the sphere > would have to be to get a good magnitude of deflection. > > Anthony Tsakiris > > ------------------------------ > > From: adt1 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:32 -0500 > Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information > > >I think I've converted him to the GM way, he is (was) a Ford man. > > Doh! > > > Anthony Tsakiris > > ------------------------------ > > From: Roy > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:54:47 +0000 > Subject: Re: Cross Port " Air flow measurement " > > Kalle Pihlajasaari wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is a messsage from another list I'm on. > > > > It seem that ultrasonic flow measurement might be a out the box sollution > > but I have no idea how these are implemented, perhaps someone in > > the UK could make a few calls and let the list know what is on offer. > > > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:51:20 +0800 (HKT) > > > From: Stuart Smith > > > Subject: Re: [STAMPS]..Wind Speed Devices!!!! Low Speed+ > > > > > > Solent of the UK make an ultrasonic anemometer rated down to 0.02m/s! The > > > deluxe versions also do 3 dimensional direction output! The top end goes > > > up to 90m/s as well. However it is somewhat more expensive than the > > > conventional type, however they are well made and the accuracy specs. good > > > as they have no friction etc... > > > > > > Contact: Biral Industrial & Research, UK > > > Ph: +44 1275 847787 > > > Fax: +44 1275 847303 > > > e-mail: info@biral.com > > > WWW: http://www.biral.com > > > > > > Stuart Smith > > > > Cheers > > -- > > Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@ip.co.za http://www.ip.co.za/ip > > Interface Products P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa > > + 27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: 402-7751 http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle > > > > DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer > > > > FROM Roy Spectrics Ltd > > > > These anerometers are of no use at all unless you have an inlet tract that can handle a device that is 2ft tall! They are marine devices fitted onto boats to measure windspeed and direction. They would also have difficulty in coping with the pulsation > s found in the inlet tract. > > ------------------------------ > > From: Carter Hendricks > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:53:41 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Re: Motronic > > On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Scot A. Sealander wrote: > > > In Jim and Todd's case, I fully understand their reluctance to put it all > > that effort out front, and most would not understand it anyway! > > Right. But: > > What is so weird about this thread is that Jim and Todd [and a few of the > other wizards] have been overwhelmingly generous with their time and > information. If we keep whining, they will go away. Lets move on to how > new questions, like how to get 50 more horsepower by reprogramming a chip > or using a $20 exhaust sensor to... > > --Carter > > [who feels awful for having > started this mess, when I was > just trying to thank these guys] > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jones > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:51:26 +0000 > Subject: More TPI questions from me > > Daniel Burk wrote: > > > > John Hess wrote: > > > > > > You DO NOT want an '85 TPI...PERIOD! The best bet is the early '86 > > > Corvette, Plug the enrichment injector hole, plug the left fuel rail > > > connector to the enrichment injector, and install an '89 chip. > > > > > > If you install the '89 system, the only changes required are to notch > > > the two center manifold to head bolt holes to accomodate the different > > > bolt angle that the aluminum head has versus the iron head (of course, > > > you might consider late model aluminum Corvette heads if you have the > > > coin). The '89 chip is simply a better tune in addition to getting > > > rid of the cold start injector. > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: Daniel Burk[SMTP:ws6transam@voyager.net] > > > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 10:12 PM > > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Subject: Re: Mike's TPI question > > > > > > Mike: You want a TPI from a '85 or '86 Z28 Camaro, corvette, or trans > > > am. > > > > > > Those are the only cars that came with TPI, and pre-'87 will not > > > require you to modify the intake manifold. > > > > Okay, okay, I get the picture! > > > > Mike: Ignore my advice. > What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. I know the 85 uses > a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up units do not. Why is > one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the cold > start injector? What is the difference between the speed density system > and the mass Air Flow? Would one be more desirable for my application? > Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes > the 89 EPROM, why? > > Mike Jones > rwj5125@electriciti.com > > ------------------------------ > > From: Dave Zug > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:33:59 -0500 > Subject: Re: Motronic energizer bunny > > > thor@pixie.co.za wrote: > > > > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information > > which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made > > to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I > > believe, is not in the spirit of this group. > > > Maybe someone could write a "our mission" statement about the list.. to > tell others what the spirit of the list exactly is. when i was young (9 > months ago) i thought i had found this really great spot where all these > code pirates were that would give me all they had just because. (thats > really what i thought, for a day or so.. others may think that at > first) what i HAVE found was alot better.. people who have worked hard > to get where they are and will guide you thru the basics and want you to > learn the way they did.. thru hard work.. a good way (IMO) to get there, > i have found. > > If someone had given me a dump of 8 or 9 ECM's completely commented, i > would have looked for 10 minutes and decided that "i'll go sell chips > now". > (well not really, i do have scruples, you get my point). > > I can appreciate and confirm that the "gift" of the microprocessor > identification (posted in another message about the MOTRONIC-BMW) was > truly a GIFT, it took me 2 months to get my micro's I.D. and then > another 4 to beleive it. > > another message i saw hit it right: > read the prom, learn the language, know some automotice engineering > theory, setup a test rig (or test car!) and start digging! and dont give > up and have fun....and share some! > > oh, and visit http:/p3.net/~dzug/89gpturbo.html (my project's story) I'm > really an amateur, but i know it. just give me a few years with this > hobby ;-) > > the bunny thing isnt a cut, it just keeeeeps going (USA TV Commercial > Humor) sorry :-) > > ------------------------------ > > From: Dave Zug > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:45:05 -0500 > Subject: move on: Thermisters > > Carter Hendricks wrote: > > > > > > Lets move on to how > > new questions, like how to get 50 more horsepower by reprogramming a chip > > or using a $20 exhaust sensor to... > > With some talk I've seen/Read on thermister accuracy being comprimized > by the voltage being passed thru it (and thus heat), is there any merit > to 10k standard thermisters being used in place of the 3k standard I've > seen? or are there manufacturere who DO use the 10k standard? (10k ARE > better right?) It dont look hard to change ECM tables for this > upgrade.. but if it were offered as an aftermarket upgrade, i'd think it > was some marketing guys' idea. (point of diminishing returns again) > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jennifer Rose > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Phone Number > > Mike > > > The phone number for GM SPORT SALVAGE is 408-432-8498. > > Vance > > ------------------------------ > > From: peter paul fenske > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 05:34:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: TPI questions from me > > Chomp munchee_______----__--_-_--_---- > > >start injector? What is the difference between the speed density system > >and the mass Air Flow? Would one be more desirable for my application? > >Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes > >the 89 EPROM, why? > > > >Mike Jones > >rwj5125@electriciti.com > > > Hi Mike > > Reason people malign the 85 is not because of the components but > because of the older ecm used. It is a C3 version #870 with a slower > interface rate of 160 baud. Also uses an older processor a varaint > of the 6801 motorola. > > The 86-89 ecms are an intermediate step. Capable of both 160 and 8192 > baud aldl. The number for these ecms is #165. People perfer > the 89 calibration since they think the cold start system which is > independant of the ecm is failure prone. I have never had a problem > but I suppose one can. > > Now these systems are all mass airflow sensor based. Thus you > will always need a sensor that can cost you from 200 to 500 dollars > when it goes. Of course maf will handle considerable engine changes > without fussing. > > Now on too the 90-92 map driven systems. Lots of 730 ecms and harness in > the millions of J cars. Celebs, cavaliers ect ect. > I usually pay 80$ canadian here for a ecm and harness. > The calibration is cheap. 50$ canadian and part number 1615348 gets you > the calibration package. The map sensor is cheaper and doesn't require > you to relocate your rad, just kiddin. > > Mind you map doesn't handle massive engine changes.. > > GL:peter > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jones > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:06:48 +0000 > Subject: Re: Phone Number > > Jennifer Rose wrote: > > > > Mike > > > > The phone number for GM SPORT SALVAGE is 408-432-8498. > > > > Vance > > Thanks > - -- > Mike Jones > rwj5125@electriciti.com > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jennifer Rose > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:06:43 -0800 (PST) > Subject: O.D. TRANS > > George > > Now that you mention it- wanted to replace turbo 400 with a 4l80e trans. > Just need to find one real cheap!! Had the wild notion my current ECM (165) > could be use to control the new trans. Of course this is after learning to > tweak code for better performance LOL. > > Vance > > ------------------------------ > > From: peter paul fenske > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:03:52 -0800 > Subject: Re: O.D. TRANS > > At 06:06 PM 1/11/97 -0800, you wrote: > >George > > > > Now that you mention it- wanted to replace turbo 400 with a 4l80e > trans. > >Just need to find one real cheap!! Had the wild notion my current ECM (165) > >could be use to control the new trans. Of course this is after learning to > >tweak code for better performance LOL. > > > >Vance > > Hi guys. > > I don't think it is within the capability of a #165 ecm to > control the electronic trans. Not unless you considerably down > grade the code that is running. > > Now a stand alone controller could be interesting. There actually > isn't that much to control > > Later: peter > > ------------------------------ > > From: peter paul fenske > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:09:34 -0800 > Subject: Calpak and Boost > > Hi All > > Just was interested if anyone had the eprom contents of the syclone > calpak. If not ok just have to spend some money. > > Also if someone can send me the 89 tpi prom I could have a look > and see what it would take to disable the egr and vats for you > guys. > > With the syclone stuff I am getting serious about writing some > code and adding it to the 730 tpi stuff. What I want to do > is interecept the map a/d reads using a 2 bar map instead of > a 1 bar. When pressure exceed baro or a calibrated value I intend > to switch the open loop calibration to my own table. Also switch > in an external driver for additional injectors when the boost > from the vortech cuts in. This is similiar to what is done in > the LT5 to switch in the extra injectors. > > I would like to see how the Map reads are done in the syclone. > > Tnx everybody: peter > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #15 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 15:07:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA11273; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:02:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA11268; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:02:18 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va6-04.ix.netcom.com [199.35.207.196]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA25044 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:02:16 -0800 Message-ID: <32D8FBE8.7C7A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:57:44 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <3.0.32.19970111140753.0068a25c@pop3.cris.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi adt1 wrote: > > >Someone else on this list posted a message suggesting use of a strain > >gauge for flow measurement. I've been thinking about that some more from > >time to time and it seems like a good idea. His idea was basically based > >on mounting a small object in the air flow path via an arm that has a > >strain gauge. Increased air flow equates to change in the load cell > >reading. To cancel out vehicle dynamics an identical setup outside the > >flow path is used and the signals are subtracted. The resulting reading > >needs to be corrected based on air temp since the drag force is a > >function of air density, viscosity, velocity ^ 2. Knowing density (by > >temp) and viscosity, we can calculate or look-up velocity, and knowing > >velocity, area, and density, we can determine mass flow rate. > > > >Not too many people commented about his message unfortunately, and I > >can't find the original posting. What are your thoughts? > > This approach to air flow measurement sounds very similar to > a vane meter. Both the strain gauged arm and the vane meter > rely on an aerodynamic drag force to deflect a spring. The > deflection is measured (by a strain gauge in the first case > and a potentiometer in the second) and then converted to mass > flow rate. > > I'm not saying it's good or bad, just pointing out the > similarity I see. It makes me wonder how big the sphere > would have to be to get a good magnitude of deflection. > > Anthony Tsakiris That's a good question. Also, I don't know much about the vane meters (I have never actually seen one on an engine), but are they not a little restrictive? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 15:23:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA11303; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:17:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA11298; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:17:09 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va6-04.ix.netcom.com [199.35.207.196]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA25585 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:17:08 -0800 Message-ID: <32D8FF7F.C6E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:13:03 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Engine warmup References: <2.2.16.19970110140150.489712b0@tempepop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Here is a couple of thoughts or questions: 1- I assume you can't adjust at what temp. you can go to closed loop 2- When you talk about adjusting mixture, does that include shifting feedback target voltage, or is it just the base fuel curve. 3- Does the system go to closed loop regardless of O2 volts? A lot of systems do not go to closed loop (even after they are supposed to based on the temperature run time table) until there is some voltage on the O2 sensor input line. This is done to make sure the sensor is warm. If that's the case, may be you can disconnect the sensor line through a relay that is activated by a temperature switch set at 80 degrees or something. Mark Eidson wrote: > > My Holley Projection throttle body controller turns on O2 feedback while > warmup enrichment is still on. The effect leans our the mixture and I get > an occasional backkfire during gear shifts, an automatic transmission. > There is no way to change the closed loop turn on, when the engine temp > reaches 70 degrees. Holley suggested just enriching the warmup in the area > where the backfire occurs. This helped some but I still get an occasional > backfire or hesitation. Should I just keep upping the enrichment or are > there other ways to help the problem? me > *************************************************************************** > * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * > * Fax: (602)752-6000 * > * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * > * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * > * VLSI Technology, Inc. * > * 8375 South River Parkway * > * M/S 265 * > * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * > *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 16:48:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA11676; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:44:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11667; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:44:26 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d14.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.206]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14530 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:44:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:44:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701121644.KAA14530@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: O.D. TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes yes, go ahead with the details! GMD At 07:03 AM 1/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >I don't think it is within the capability of a #165 ecm to >control the electronic trans. Not unless you considerably down >grade the code that is running. > >Now a stand alone controller could be interesting. There actually >isn't that much to control > >Later: peter > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 16:48:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA11677; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:44:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11665; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:44:25 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d14.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.206]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14526 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:44:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:44:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701121644.KAA14526@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: O.D. TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've got a 700R from a '89 TPI Formula 1 Fire Bird. Plan to put it in the '58 chevy truck. This tranny only has 4th gear output switch and lock up converter switch. Cost me $500. What can you tell me about the all electric version? GMD At 06:06 PM 1/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >George > > Now that you mention it- wanted to replace turbo 400 with a 4l80e trans. >Just need to find one real cheap!! Had the wild notion my current ECM (165) >could be use to control the new trans. Of course this is after learning to >tweak code for better performance LOL. > >Vance > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 17:22:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12059; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:19:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12051; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:18:58 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial007h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.72]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA01546 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:18:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D91B80.532F@net-quest.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:12:32 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Calpak and Boost References: <199701120323.TAA08680@orb.direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi peter paul fenske wrote: > > Hi All > > Just was interested if anyone had the eprom contents of the syclone > calpak. If not ok just have to spend some money. > > Also if someone can send me the 89 tpi prom I could have a look > and see what it would take to disable the egr and vats for you > guys. > > With the syclone stuff I am getting serious about writing some > code and adding it to the 730 tpi stuff. What I want to do > is interecept the map a/d reads using a 2 bar map instead of > a 1 bar. When pressure exceed baro or a calibrated value I intend > to switch the open loop calibration to my own table. Also switch > in an external driver for additional injectors when the boost > from the vortech cuts in. This is similiar to what is done in > the LT5 to switch in the extra injectors. > > I would like to see how the Map reads are done in the syclone. > > Tnx everybody: peter Got some Grand National stuff, stock and modified, no syclone stuff though. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 17:24:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12082; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:21:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12077; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:21:51 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial007h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.72]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA01709 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:21:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32D91C2E.56BD@net-quest.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:15:26 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <3.0.32.19970111140753.0068a25c@pop3.cris.com> <32D8FBE8.7C7A@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mazda Ebrahimi wrote: > > That's a good question. Also, I don't know much about the vane meters > (I have never actually seen one on an engine), but are they not a little > restrictive? Mazda, I've measured the pressure drop of a vane type air flow meter on a 911 engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 17:52:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA12326; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:48:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA12321; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:48:05 -0500 Received: from van-as-01a05.direct.ca (van-as-01a05.direct.ca [204.174.248.5]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA21615 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:48:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701121748.JAA21615@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:34:10 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: O.D. TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi George. To be truthful you can get the details from a GM service manuel. I will look again for you later but from memory you need the following. First off the gear select is still manuel. At least in the ones I have the manuel for. Not shift by wire. In the drive position though the gear selection is electrohydraulic valves. The ecm switchs two valves to select the four forward gears. The transmission line pressure is Pulse width modulated. Now you will need VSS, a TPS, and RPM to control the transmission. Everything that was done hydraulically must be done with code. It would be an interesting application of a EVB. If I get some free time we might post some code on the net for people to see how to handle the parameters. Right now I have to finish marking about 60 exams and I am spending too much time on this darn computer. >Yes yes, go ahead with the details! >GMD > >At 07:03 AM 1/11/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>I don't think it is within the capability of a #165 ecm to >>control the electronic trans. Not unless you considerably down >>grade the code that is running. >> >>Now a stand alone controller could be interesting. There actually >>isn't that much to control >> And GL: >>Later: peter >> PS. get your pink book warmed up george your gonna write code. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 18:57:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA12774; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:54:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA12769; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:54:03 -0500 Received: from van-as-01a05.direct.ca (van-as-01a05.direct.ca [204.174.248.5]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA05636 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:53:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701121853.KAA05636@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:40:08 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: Mike & TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hello Mike > >>What I was tring to ask is: If I would be to install the TPI system and >>try to run a EPROM with factory calibartion (intended for a 'vette, >>firebird ect.) how would it perform? Also is the EPROM different for a >>700R4 tranny? >The PN I gave you is for the 90-92 camaro iroc 5.7. Now I ran quite a >souped up engine on this calibration and it ran. With an increase of >fuel pressure from the regulator it ran good. With anything approaching >a stock motor leave the calibration(fuel ignitition ect) alone!!! > >You will have to defeat the Vats function. Change bit 04 of byte 0016 >in the eprom to zero. No Vats!!!!!!! >Now to recalibrate fuel maps. Thats time and money. There are >a dozen fuel maps and a dozen ignition maps. Without a dyno I >wouldn't bother. Just like a holley carb. If it runs with >65 jets going to 75 jets might not help. You go on to a track and >make a run with 66s if better you go to 67s . Get the idea. > >>burn myself a chip. I just don't have time with school(Mechanical >>engineering student) to learn 68HC11 code. >> >>Mike Jones >>rwj5125@electriciti.com >> >comeon Mike, how many mechanical engineers can program a ECM! > >GL:peter > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 12 19:31:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA12843; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:26:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA12838; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:26:43 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial147.voyager.net [207.74.103.147]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id OAA24182; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:25:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32D9764D.76D3@voyager.net> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:39:57 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: L69/WS6 equipped I96 road warrior X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rwj5125@electriciti.com CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: MAFS vs Speed Density TPI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike, The arguement against the cold start injector is that it is an additional part that can be eliminated through compensation from the eight main injectors. Additionally, the cold start injector injects fuel into a manifold that was designed to run as a "dry" manifold. (e.g. no fuel, only air.) A dry manifold design that stays dry is superior because the fuel will not stick to the sides of the manifold, then tear off in great gobs of unburned fuel. A Speed density system also is a simplification. A MAF sensor is much more complex than a pressure transducer, and is more prone to failure. Instead of actually measuring the air density, you measure air temperature and absolute pressure, then calculate the density using your computer. It requires (I surmise!!!) more processing power. The system is programmed to fuel maps instead of a Mass/Air calculation. (I think - You better ask the experts I have no practical knowledge here.) Additionally, a MAFS sensor places a restriction into the air flow path, resulting in reduced performance potential. Yet, a MAFS sensor based system is supposedly more forgiving of performance modifications, and allows the use of a hotter cam. The speed density system requires a good vacuum signal to calculate air flow, and hot cams don't lend themselves well to big, stable vacuum signals. -- My opinion, -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 00:53:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA13402; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:46:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA13397; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:46:43 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA17160 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:46:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:46:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970112194642_578997006@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ALDL Information Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I> I imagine that everything the list knows is in the archive, as this topic > comes up periodically and generates a fair amount of discussion. Check it > out thoroughly, and check out an archive that I have located at > http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/aldl.txt Thanks Steve... I'll go through the archive again! Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 02:52:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA13610; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:46:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA13605; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:46:05 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA21481 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970112214603_1209852339@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: MAFS vs Speed Density TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-12 14:42:44 EST, you write: > Yet, a MAFS sensor based system is supposedly more forgiving of > performance modifications, and allows the use of a hotter cam. The speed > density system requires a good vacuum signal to calculate air flow, and > hot cams don't lend themselves well to big, stable vacuum signals. Unless, of course, you have a way to manually adjust the computer (at idle). We had severe idle problems on a big cammed 88 Mustang (speed density). We added a simple "add on" computer and the problem was solved. And the car did run better (faster) than the identical "mass air" cars. Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 04:31:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13760; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 04:26:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13755; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:26:41 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD57.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.119]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA26289 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701130426.UAA26289@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: RE:RE:O.D.TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi George My info is local cost is $1200 from wrecking yard. Became interseted after reading article in 11-96 HOT ROD. The article mentioned that 4l80e and turbo 400 are very similar. My truck currently has turbo 400, short shaft, adapted to a NP 205 tranfer case. Wanted to upgrade trans- figure this would best option. General question to all. Recomendation for learning/disassemble 68hc11. Have fair amount of time to learn. Next purchase after motherboard upgrade will be epom burner. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 05:46:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA13843; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:41:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA13838; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:41:01 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-89-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.99]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA16480 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:40:58 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970113044244.0091f9a8@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:42:44 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: RE:RE:O.D.TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Get to the book store, also call a motorola sales office and get some data books on the HC11's they have lots of good information. Also check the moto web site it is loaded with hc11 assemblers, compilers, etc and is a good resource. Sandy > > > General question to all. > Recomendation for learning/disassemble 68hc11. Have fair amount of >time to learn. Next purchase after motherboard upgrade will be epom burner. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 09:10:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA14074; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:01:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA14068; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 04:01:04 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA08568 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:00:56 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA13539; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:00:56 +0100 Message-Id: <199701130900.KAA13539@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:45:02 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > His idea was basically based > on mounting a small object in the air flow path via an arm that has a > strain gauge. Increased air flow equates to change in the load cell > reading. To cancel out vehicle dynamics an identical setup outside the > flow path is used and the signals are subtracted. This is very similar to the system used in the Bosch K-jetronic mechanical fuel injection, where a plate (located in the air flow) and arm are used to control the fuel flow to the injectors. Such a system will always cause relatively large flow losses, and therefore deteriorate maximum power. Also, I imagine the 2 load cells will make the system quite expensive. Evert **************************************************************** * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * * Laboratory for Machines * * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * * University Gent * * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 13:16:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14537; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:04:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14532; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:04:20 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv2-13.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv2-13.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.77]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA13151 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:04:18 -0800 Message-ID: <32DA55D4.1537@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:33:40 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <3.0.32.19970111140753.0068a25c@pop3.cris.com> <32D8FBE8.7C7A@ix.netcom.com> <32D91C2E.56BD@net-quest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Todd Knighton wrote: > > Mazda Ebrahimi wrote: > > > > That's a good question. Also, I don't know much about the vane meters > > (I have never actually seen one on an engine), but are they not a little > > restrictive? > > Mazda, > I've measured the pressure drop of a vane type air flow meter on a 911 > engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. > The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full > throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering Thanks Todd, Do you know roughly what percentage power drop that equates to (from 5" at 6000 to 14" at 6000)? From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 13:18:40 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14554; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:12:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14549; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:12:35 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv2-13.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv2-13.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.77]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA13459 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:12:32 -0800 Message-ID: <32DA57C5.5D42@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:41:57 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <199701130900.KAA13539@allserv.rug.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > This is very similar to the system used in the Bosch K-jetronic > mechanical fuel injection, where a plate (located in the air flow) and > arm are used to control the fuel flow to the injectors. Such a system > will always cause relatively large flow losses, and therefore > deteriorate maximum power. > > Also, I imagine the 2 load cells will make the system quite > expensive. The object in the flow path does not need to be restrictive. It can just be placed in an isolated portion of the flow path, similar to the way many mass air flow sensors are positioned on modern designs. You do have a good point about the cost and complexity of the apparatus, but it does have its advatages: 1- It corrects for flow reversion 2- All components are robust (no fine wires) Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 13:33:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14589; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:24:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14584; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:24:48 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA24918 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:24:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:24:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970113082447_979343083@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: O.D.TRANS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > General question to all. > Recomendation for learning/disassemble 68hc11. Have fair amount of > time to learn. Next purchase after motherboard upgrade will be epom burner. I would highly recommend the Motorola Document associated with that chip... you can get the part numbers from www.motorola.com (after a lot of searching unfortunately). I'd give you the numbers and info to order, however a friend of mine has my book(s). I also have a shareware assembler/disassembler somewhere, if anyone wants it, I'll send it out at some point. Frederic Breitwieser From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 14:09:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14692; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:02:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14687; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:02:38 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct1-14.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct1-14.ix.netcom.com [199.183.43.46]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA15447 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:02:35 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:02:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct1-14.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <19971139055241@ix.netcom.com> Subject: 02 sensor X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi. Doing a service on my BMW 635, and want to replace my 02 sensor. The BMW O2 sensor cost $140; Ford use Bosch O2 sensors on the Mustang 5.0 for $60, which is also what aftermarket 3-wire sensors from NAPA cost. Are there any differences between O2 sensors? Is there any reason to use the stock one? Is the ECM calibrated to use the output from a specific unit? >From the archives, I kind of understand that most of these give similar results at stochiometric (0.45v), but I'm concerned about the cars ability to correct the mixture if its given incorrect inputs. Thanks in advance. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 14:59:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14909; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:41:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14904; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:40:59 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id IAA26396; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:40:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma026393; Mon, 13 Jan 97 08:40:21 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC012D.DAA8E870@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:43:31 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Darrell Norquay'" Subject: RE: Airflow measurement - again... Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:42:42 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Actually, most thermistors will have a larger cross-sectional area, thus create more drag and turbulence in the intake path. The "hot wire" creates enough to be highly disruptive (note that REALLY high performance engines are MAP, not MAF). ---------- From: Darrell Norquay[SMTP:dnorquay@iul-ccs.com] Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 10:47 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Airflow measurement - again... At 02:44 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Tom Cloud wrote: >> How do MAF meters work? I understand they typically use heated wires?? >> Why not use thermistors (slower response?? -- but larger R change and >> easier to instrument .. ??). I suspect that they have long ago been >> tried and discarded -- true?? >> >> Tom Cloud And Mazda replied: >I don't have the response curve to prove it, but thermistors are >generally much too slow for such an application. Also, a thermistor >changes resistance with temperature, so you cannot use it by itself for >flow measurement. You would have to have a mass and a heater to heat it, >so you can measure a temperature. After all that you end up doing what >the hot wire does, except much slower and at higher cost. Thermistors don't need to be slow. It depends a lot on the size and thermal mass of the thermistor body. Fenwal and YSI sell lots of units that are only 1mm in diam, very fast response. In any case, a hot wire anemometer is just a more rugged type of thermistor, which uses more current and has less sensitivity. Also, a little slower response may give better averaging of transients and a smoother signal... Thermistor mass flowmeters are very common in the instrumentation world, and can be very accurate indeed. Usual method is to have two identical thermistors in a "bridge" configuration, one in the air stream and one out. This compensates for any ambient temp effects. The thermistor in the airstream is purposely heated to raise it's temp, and the drive current is "servoed" to maintain a constant voltage across the sensor. As airflow increases, it takes more current to keep this voltage (and therm temp, BTW) constant, and the change in drive current is simply measured to determine airflow. Exactly the way a MAF works, but a MAF is a mass produced, limited accuracy unit made to be cheap and not particularly accurate. (BTW, there was some discussion I saw somewhere on how to make a hot-wire anemometer from a couple of #52 panel lamps, one with the glass envelope broken off...) regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 14:59:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14926; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:48:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14921; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:48:29 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id IAA26727; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:47:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma026719; Mon, 13 Jan 97 08:47:45 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC012E.E32F1BD0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:50:55 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Scot A. Sealander'" Subject: RE: Motronic Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:50:06 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Let me interject something into this discussion. I spent several hours, last week in the company of Steve Cole (The Turbo Shop) in Compton, CA. Steve makes some products that he sells (Mastertune and Mastertune Plus) that allow one to read and modify the mapping and other settings on your EPROM. He has other products under development that cannot be discussed at this time. The point I would like to make is...if he gave the settings he uses, they might or might not work for your application (and might not work at all!). He sells the tools for you to use to not only remap your PROM; but, to LEARN. If you were given too much free information, it would stagnate your progress. There are some things you need to learn on your own. The basic information is available; but, don't denigrate someone who has been helpful simply because he won't broadcast the source of his/her livelihood to the world over an open internet forum! Take what information they will disk out and use it wisely. On the other hand, I DON'T TOLERATE THE RANTINGS of a supposed expert whose intent is to discourage and belittle! John Hess ---------- From: Scot A. Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 3:08 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Motronic thor@pixie.co.za wrote: > Nobody is questioning Todd's perogative of divulging any information > which may put him out of business, however, his comments (remarks) made > to someone who merly requested some information and help in this forum, I > believe, is not in the spirit of this group. I respectfully disagree. > Remeber, there may be someone out there who also has the requested > information, and is willing to share it. Interesting. The only people who I have found that want to "share it" are those who the info cost them nothing. Nothing, as in no expense, no sweat, no long hours pouring over code or ECM hardware. In other words, they got an illegal copy of say, a GM calibration document and have no problem passing along someone else's effort. The info is not valuable to them, as they "paid" nothing for it. In Jim and Todd's case, I fully understand their reluctance to put it all that effort out front, and most would not understand it anyway! I have seen "read-it-in-a-magazine ECM experts" on various automotive mailing lists, who must have never seen a line of code, telling others how things work. Their mis-information is sometimes amazing. I responded to a TPS question once, and got a "Clearly, you have no knowledge here" response. It was because of the "common knowledge" that these experts continue to purpetuate. It takes a long time to stop urban legend.... Even book authors and magazine writers can put out mis-information. A popular book says "Rotating the TPS counterclockwise increases the voltage and results in a richer air/fuel ratio......" This is in error, but because it is published, I guess it is considered truth.... ;-) Or a recent magazine article that said "The oxygen sensor .... is the primary input to the fuel delivery system." Another serious error. Jim and Todd have taken the considerable time and effort it takes to really find out how the BMW/Porsche boxes function, (and did not read magazines to get there) and most here do not understand the time and serious effort involved, or their level of expertise at this. (Just ask the person who said they had 1% of code commented and gave up. The only real difference between Jim/Todd and this person may be that they did not give up! I like Jim's offer of help to those who would help themselves. It is admirable and shows true class in my opinion.... YMMV. Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 15:08:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14961; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:59:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14956; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:59:29 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id IAA27224; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:58:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma027217; Mon, 13 Jan 97 08:58:51 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0130.6FA2F5E0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:02:00 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Jones'" Subject: RE: More TPI questions from me Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:01:11 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system and was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same system) I know the 85 uses a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up units do not. Why is one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the cold start injector? I don't know that EVERYONE DOES. I do. The cold start injector is simply something else to go awry. If it can be gotten rid of with programming, then do so. What is the difference between the speed density system and the mass Air Flow? Speed densiity measures the manifold pressure as the controlling item whereas Mass Air Flow measures the actual volume of air the system is using. Would one be more desirable for my application? Depends. If you are building a machine that you will be developing over a period of time, or for the street, the MAF might be a better solution in that it works with a very wide variance of modifications, including cam, exhaust, intake, etc. On the other hand, if you are looking for maximum performance on and engine (system) that is finished, the MAP (with proper mapping) will generally yield greater horsepower (at least as great as a well tuned carburetor). Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes the 89 EPROM, why? According to what you are doing, each has its benefits (described above). As for the '89 EPROM, it was the last of the '86 - '89 programs, so for that genre, the '89 has all the goodies developed for the model. In '90, the system changed to MAP. Got a little horsepower; but, became a little more difficult to modify without remapping. Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 15:24:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA15033; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:15:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from oxe.cs.umu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15027; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:15:47 -0500 Received: from topaz.cs.umu.se (rfc1413 says c95fsg@topaz.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.159]) by oxe.cs.umu.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11154 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:15:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (rfc1413 says c95fsg@localhost) by topaz.cs.umu.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14852 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:14:56 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: topaz.cs.umu.se: c95fsg owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:14:56 +0100 (MET) From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... In-Reply-To: <32DA55D4.1537@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 kleenair@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Todd Knighton wrote: > > > > Mazda Ebrahimi wrote: > > > > > > That's a good question. Also, I don't know much about the vane meters > > > (I have never actually seen one on an engine), but are they not a little > > > restrictive? > > > > Mazda, > > I've measured the pressure drop of a vane type air flow meter on a 911 > > engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. > > The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full > > throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. > > > > Todd Knighton > > Protomotive Engineering > > Thanks Todd, > > Do you know roughly what percentage power drop that equates to (from 5" > at 6000 to 14" at 6000)? > In the early 70's, the BMW 2l engines had 130 HP with a kugelfisher all mechanical fuel injection without air flow meter. In the mid 70's they changed the injection to k-jetronic on the same engine type and the power droped to 125 HP and the torque droped too. I'm not sure the amount of torque drop, but maybe 10 Nm. The intake system were identical to the later system except the addition of an air flow meter. Hope this helps! ############################################################################## Fredrik Skog '70 2002 ti O==00==O \\\ Amiga 1200 Email: c95fsg@cs.umu.se \\\ /// WWW: http://www.ts.umu.se/~skog/ \\X// From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:11:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15300; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:03:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15289; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:22 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA07482 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970113110321_1757897377@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 02 sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-13 09:23:27 EST, you write: > Hi. Doing a service on my BMW 635, and want to replace my 02 sensor. The BMW > O2 sensor cost $140; Ford use Bosch O2 sensors on the Mustang 5.0 for $60, > which is also what aftermarket 3-wire sensors from NAPA cost. Bosch sensors can be purchased from many well-equipped auto stores... I bought a new O2 sensor from one store (strauss I think) for $29.95 for my GM, where GM wanted about $65 dollars. And the car runs fine.... its an OEM equiv sensor, not a high performance sensor... Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:12:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15301; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:03:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15294; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:24 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA03369 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970113110322_1857720609@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-13 10:19:13 EST, you write: > on your own. The basic information is available; but, don't > denigrate someone who has been helpful simply because he won't > broadcast the source of his/her livelihood to the world over an open > internet forum! I agree John, and all I can say is "of course not". I'm in the process of learning about the GM ALDL and will take whatever comes my way as far as information and schematics, but I realize someone who invented a nifty scanner/tester isn't about to give me their schematic . But with basic information, these devices can be reverse engineered . Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:12:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15309; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:06:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15304; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:06:27 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id IAA11703 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:51:24 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id JAA24484 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:06:25 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id JAA11533 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:14:20 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:14:20 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970113090554.3b8721f2@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: Engine warmup Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 10:13 AM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here is a couple of thoughts or questions: > >1- I assume you can't adjust at what temp. you can go to closed loop That's correct. > >2- When you talk about adjusting mixture, does that include shifting >feedback target voltage, or is it just the base fuel curve. The feedback target voltage can be set for idle, up to 1200RPM, and then 4 steps over the MAP range above 1200 RPM. There is a 16x16 fuel map and the enrichment can be set for every 10 degrees f from -40 to 240. Setting the target voltage to 0 for any given area opens the feed back loop. There is also full control of ingition advance based on RPM and throttle position. > >3- Does the system go to closed loop regardless of O2 volts? A lot of >systems do not go to closed loop (even after they are supposed to based >on the temperature run time table) until there is some voltage on the O2 >sensor input line. This is done to make sure the sensor is warm. If >that's the case, may be you can disconnect the sensor line through a >relay that is activated by a temperature switch set at 80 degrees or >something. > The O2 sensor is self heating and provides good data long before the loop is closed. The relay should work. I was hoping to find a way to do it with the adjustments available with the system. > >Mark Eidson wrote: >> >> My Holley Projection throttle body controller turns on O2 feedback while >> warmup enrichment is still on. The effect leans our the mixture and I get >> an occasional backkfire during gear shifts, an automatic transmission. >> There is no way to change the closed loop turn on, when the engine temp >> reaches 70 degrees. Holley suggested just enriching the warmup in the area >> where the backfire occurs. This helped some but I still get an occasional >> backfire or hesitation. Should I just keep upping the enrichment or are >> there other ways to help the problem? me >> *************************************************************************** >> * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * >> * Fax: (602)752-6000 * >> * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * >> * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * >> * VLSI Technology, Inc. * >> * 8375 South River Parkway * >> * M/S 265 * >> * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * >> *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:44:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15485; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:33:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15480; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:16 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA02367 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA22499 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970113112806.2ecf6c84@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Interesting to see the strain gauge idea is getting more airtime again... >engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. >The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full >throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. Sorry todd, but whats the psi/inH20 conversion? Just dont have a 'feel' what 14"H20 of pressure is;) Seems you can get more than a few ponies back when you change an old 911 w/ K-jetronic to a MAF/MAP EFI system. Someone also questioned the restiction/cost issue of strain gauges. On the restriction issue, the object can be very small (pea sized). To measure the force on an object, it doesn't need to be deflected (well, a VERY small amount). You put an object on a square beam of 6160 Al (or some other material that you know deformation vs force) and glue (using Cya - instant glue) strain gauges on the front and back of the beam. When airflow appllies a force to your object, the beam bends a VERY small amount which makes one side of the beam longer than the other (the upstram side is in expansion, and the downstream side is in compression). A strain gauge is actually a thin film resistor and when compressed the resistor gets 'shorter' and the R will go down (and of course, goes up when stretched). This allows you to measure the 'strain' on the beam. Now, you can use a pea sized object w/ a very small beam to measure very tiny forces, or use a huge chunk of Al to measure the weight of a multi-ton dump truck, all w/ the exact same 2 gauges. On the cost issue, load cells are expensive. The strain gauges to make them are very cheap (somewhere in the range of $2-10 each). An instrumentation quality load cell might use a little more expensive gauges, but they are only little Resistors. I imagine most of the cost is in the beam material and machining it to shape so the gauge output is linear. Then again, there are really nice load cells in these <$60 digital scales on which we gauge our holiday consumption;) Always glad to put in my $0.02. Just remember, free advice is worth what you paid for it;) SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:44:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15498; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:37:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mashtun by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15493; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:37:36 -0500 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: by mashtun (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRm2.5+GKEm1.1) id AA02715; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:41:32 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:41:32 -0800 Message-Id: <9701131641.AA02715@mashtun> To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Miller Cycle X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have been thinking quite a bit about the Miller cycle and the application to NA vehicles with EFI. It seems to fit well with adding on a supercharger, which is what I wanted to do anyhow. Is it an impossibly complex task to get the new cam, supercharger, and EFI to play together correctly? I would really appreciate some advice from people who have done extensive engine development. Thanks. paul timmerman From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:46:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15609; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:41:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15604; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:41:49 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial005h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.70]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA22257 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:41:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32DA644C.436A@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:35:24 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <3.0.32.19970111140753.0068a25c@pop3.cris.com> <32D8FBE8.7C7A@ix.netcom.com> <32D91C2E.56BD@net-quest.com> <32DA55D4.1537@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi kleenair@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Thanks Todd, > > Do you know roughly what percentage power drop that equates to (from 5" > at 6000 to 14" at 6000)? On the 911 we were dynoing at the time, we netted about 7hp gain, from 231 to 238 I think. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 16:59:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA15693; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:51:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA15688; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:51:08 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-74-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.84]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16014 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:51:05 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970113155250.0092fe7c@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:52:50 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: 02 sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I think you can get a BMW replacement Bosch sensor for about half the cost. The only difference is that you may have to splice the wire to the O2 sensor as it may not reach. I had to replace the one in my 323i, and it was the same story. The autoparts guy just sold the generic replacement bosch and that should be fine. Sandy From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 18:16:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA16283; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:02:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailhub1.trw.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16278; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:02:50 -0500 Received: from qmgate.TRW.COM by mailhub1.trw.com; Mon, 13 Jan 97 09:54:33 -0800 Message-ID: Date: 10 Jan 1997 12:04:53 -0800 From: "QMGATE2" Subject: Error in local delivery To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state." X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 4.0.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mail*Link¨ SMTP RE>ion to TPI...More ??? You're too polite Peter. I'm following this EFI related thread and I for one would like know more. Please post it:) GMD At 08:24 AM 1/9/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Anywho I don't want to get anyone mad at me so if you have any more >questions email me directly. > >But I really recomend JTRS book. > >GL to u: peter > > > ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by qmgate.trw.com with ADMIN;10 Jan 1997 11:49:44 U Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by mailhub1.trw.com; Fri, 10 Jan 97 12:01:32 -0800 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA05841; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:01:37 GMT Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05836; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:01:35 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (t1-d8.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.200]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA15859 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701101901.NAA15859@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: ion to TPI...More ??? Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 18:16:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA16268; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:59:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.telebyte.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA16263; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:59:43 -0500 Received: (from cdenzler@localhost) by pacific.telebyte.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA30064 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:53:39 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:53:39 -0800 From: Chris Denzler Message-Id: <199701131753.JAA30064@pacific.telebyte.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Jim and Todd have taken the considerable time and effort it takes to really > find out how the BMW/Porsche boxes function, (and did not read magazines to > get there) and most here do not understand the time and serious effort > involved, or their level of expertise at this. (Just ask the person who > said they had 1% of code commented and gave up. The only real difference > between Jim/Todd and this person may be that they did not give up! I'm new to the list, and the 1%er referred to above. I don't know Jim and Todd other than the postings from the last few days, I don't see anything wrong with their attitude. I had my own reasons for giving up at the 1% mark. I had a good race EPROM at the time that worked well at racing RPMs and throttle openings. I wasn't going to keep the bike, in fact I vowed to never own a Weber/Marelli injected bike ever again. Also, I had reached what I felt was the point of diminishing returns from the software side of things: without a scope and logic analyzer I was stuck in a mire. ("So what sensor is REALLY located at D8F0?") Anyway, this looks like a great list and I hope to learn from the collective experiences of you all, as well as impart whatever little nugget of info that I can. So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and hardware perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as using test equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? - Chris From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 18:35:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA16446; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:24:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA16441; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:24:51 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv3-47.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv3-47.ix.netcom.com [206.217.114.111]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA03288 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:43 -0800 Message-ID: <32DAA0EF.44CA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:54:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... References: <2.2.16.19970113112806.2ecf6c84@mail.vt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Here are the conversion factors: Multiply by to get Inches H20 0.03613 PSI Inches H20 0.07355 In. of Hg From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 19:20:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA16575; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:03:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA16570; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:03:37 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA23053 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:03:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701131903.MAA23053@mail.xmission.com> Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 13 Jan 1997 19:03:34 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:04:06 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:53 AM 1/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >Also, I had reached >what I felt was the point of diminishing returns from the software side of >things: without a scope and logic analyzer I was stuck in a mire. ("So >what sensor is REALLY located at D8F0?") Ahh.. here's where (I believe) the cagers (cars/etc) have it over the bikes.. mandated OBD-I (not OBD-II) flashcodes... It's a public document as to what flashcode (from the MIL) is for the (example) air flow meter.. now in the code you can find that flashcode and reference it back to an internal BMW fault code... If you find the routine where that fault code is SET/CHECKED you will find the variable it checks.. voila >So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and hardware >perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as using test >equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? Yes, and add the best resource.. the MANUFACTURERS (the car, not BOSCH!) troubleshooting data.. at least for the Bimmers.. some of the older ETM's listed not only the faultcodes, but the EXACT criteria used to determine the fault condition... like sensor voltage above X and below Y... VERY USEFUL indeed! Jim Conforti PS: This is another hint for those of you working on Motronic From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 21:09:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA17006; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:46:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from netcom5.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA17001; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:46:45 -0500 Received: (from orin@localhost) by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id MAA28055; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:46:44 -0800 From: orin@netcom.com (Orin Eman) Message-Id: <199701132046.MAA28055@netcom5.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Motronic To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:46:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199701131753.JAA30064@pacific.telebyte.com> from "Chris Denzler" at Jan 13, 97 09:53:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1069 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > never own a Weber/Marelli injected bike ever again. Also, I had reached > what I felt was the point of diminishing returns from the software side of > things: without a scope and logic analyzer I was stuck in a mire. ("So > what sensor is REALLY located at D8F0?") > So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and hardware > perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as using test > equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? Along with some others on the Audi quattro list, I have been exploring the computers used in the Audi turbo engines. One technique I found to be really useful in identifying the sensor inputs was to work backwards from the error codes which are displayed on the check engine light. Once I found this table, I went backwards - say from the engine temp error code, I found the code that caused this error code to be displayed (a bit in a variable) then found where the error bit was set. At this point, it was obvious where the engine temp sensor data was read by the computer. Orin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 22:01:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17364; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:44:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.telebyte.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA17359; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:44:16 -0500 Received: (from cdenzler@localhost) by pacific.telebyte.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA00861 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:38:05 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:38:05 -0800 From: Chris Denzler Message-Id: <199701132138.NAA00861@pacific.telebyte.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Land Shark wrote: > > Ahh.. here's where (I believe) the cagers (cars/etc) have it over the > bikes.. mandated OBD-I (not OBD-II) flashcodes... Er, this is a little bit greek to me. What I think you are saying is there is a standard interface protocol for troubleshooting a car EFI system? So you could plug into the same serial line on different cars, with the same test hardware? Wow! Or did I totally miss your point? FAIK, there isn't any publically agreed on interface for motorcycle EFI systems. - Chris From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 22:01:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA17379; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:54:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA17374; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:54:46 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial005h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.70]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id NAA05830 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:54:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32DAADA5.224@net-quest.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:48:21 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic References: <199701131753.JAA30064@pacific.telebyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chris Denzler wrote: > > So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and hardware > perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as using test > equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? > Chris, I've tried it the software only method, and it takes forever. I've found it much easier to go round the pins of an MCU and find out everything you can about those pins, attach that info to the technical diagrams of it, then reverse engineer the code based on the given information you've just produced. Otherwise, your always scratching your head, just trying to make sense of what the codes doing to figure out what that particular port might be. I have had to do it the software only way though, and there's just some things you'll never get without the other end. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 22:47:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA17467; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:38:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA17462; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:38:08 -0500 Received: from wmoffitt.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA01449; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:35:09 -0600 Message-ID: <32DAB962.455D@connect.net> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:38:26 -0600 From: Bill Moffitt Organization: Triad Spectrum, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Temp sensor differences Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have been on this list for a few weeks now, and hope this question hasn't been asked before: The engine coolant temp sensor and the air intake temp sensor in my 89 Geo Metro are identical in temp/resistance curves. The only difference I can see is that the connectors are keyed differently, and most importantly, the coolant temp cost about twice as much! I thought I had read somewhere that there may be a difference in performance between water and air temp sensors in EFI systems, whereby one was "quicker" than the other. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 23:36:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA17618; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:29:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17613; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:29:11 -0500 Received: from vesper by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id SAA16102; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:29:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970113232909.00f7d788@infi.net> X-Sender: sldbrass@infi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:29:09 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Tuck Subject: Re: MAFS vs Speed Density TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Yet, a MAFS sensor based system is supposedly more forgiving of >performance modifications, and allows the use of a hotter cam. The speed >density system requires a good vacuum signal to calculate air flow, and >hot cams don't lend themselves well to big, stable vacuum signals. Ther eis a reason for this that I think I should point out, fortunately I can give a real world example while making my point. I was recently talking with Peter Farrell at PFS about fuel and boost management stuff with a product he sells for the third generation RX-7 and we got onto the topic of the earlier second generation RX-7 Turbo's. He told me that he was able to run 14 psi of boost using only a voltage clamp on the MAP sensor (to prevent the overboost fuel cut built into the stock ECU) because the computer could tell that volumetric efficiency had improved through the MAF. This is a big advantage of an MAF EFI system on a car that normally has positive manifold pressure under load. If you increase volumetric efficiency without increasing boost pressuse on a turbo equipped engine the EFI computer wills till get the same information from the MAP sensor, so there is no way that a speed density system can know that the actual volume of air moving through has changed and adjust fuel delivery accordingly. Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> Unique, Refreshing, and Delicious. WARNING: Keep out of reach of children. Use only as directed. Intentional misuse by inhaling, ingesting or eating the contents can be harmful or cause death. See specific warnings on individual components. -Decal from the box I came in. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 13 23:37:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA17628; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:31:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA17623; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:31:30 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.22) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:38:52 -0500 Message-ID: <32DAEE97.4194@clarityconnect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:25:27 -0800 From: Scot Sealander Organization: Or Lack There of... X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic References: <199701131753.JAA30064@pacific.telebyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chris Denzler wrote: > So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and > hardware perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as > using test equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? I don't see how you can separate the two. The GM C3 computers used all memory mapped I/O, so it is easy to figure out what the code is doing, once you have a schematic. This makes them much easier to start with (and they are cheap at the junkyard...). The only sticking point is that most of the code is in masked ROM, soldered into the board. Once you have a schematic, you can attach an adapter to the edge card connector on the board and use a PROM reader to get the data out. The ROM's are gated by the CPU clock, so use a latch to capture the data for the PROM reader. You will get a lot of bad reads if you don't. The P4's used more custom parts, and more of the 68HC11's I/O to get data in and out. The tough part is that it is not a standard Motorola part, so you have to figure out what the regs are used for. The TPU is also custom, so that requires more work. But a little creativity with a frequency generator and using your custom EPROM code you can figure out what each reg is used for. (But you gotta sit down and draw that schematic....) There is code dedicated to measuring the sensor inputs, and that is tied to the check engine light. If you search the binary file for say, hex 131415, you just might find the check engine light table..... The error code and masks have a certain relationship with the table. ;-) Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 01:20:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA17747; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:12:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA17742; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:12:19 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA29503 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:11:31 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA20871; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:56:53 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA20871; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:56:53 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00150; Tue, 14 Jan 97 08:52:53 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701141352.AA00150@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:52:44 est To: diy_efi Subject: Forwarded: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi about 2.25%, based on dropping MAP from 100.1 kPa (1 atm - 5" H2O) to 97.8 kPa (1 atm - 14" H2O). Andrew Rabbitt From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com:smtp Date: ## 01/13/97 07:33 ## Todd Knighton wrote: > > Mazda Ebrahimi wrote: > > > > That's a good question. Also, I don't know much about the vane meters > > (I have never actually seen one on an engine), but are they not a little > > restrictive? > > Mazda, > I've measured the pressure drop of a vane type air flow meter on a 911 > engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. > The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full > throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering Thanks Todd, Do you know roughly what percentage power drop that equates to (from 5" at 6000 to 14" at 6000)? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 02:33:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA17962; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:25:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA17957; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:24:55 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.35) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:32:18 -0500 Message-ID: <32DB183B.5F6D@clarityconnect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:23:07 -0800 From: Scot Sealander Organization: Or Lack There of... X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: More TPI questions from me References: <32D70DAF.2995@voyager.net> <32D7A8E9.57B2@electriciti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jones wrote: > What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. Mostly it is in the CPU. The 85 uses the older C3 ECM. The code in it is almost identicle to an 86 2.8L MPFI ECM that I have here. I wonder if it was simply a quick adaptation of the V-6 technology before the P4 ECM's were ready? If "nobody" wants an 85, and you can get a good deal on it, buy it! Just use the ECM for reverse engineering and buy a 1227730 ECM from one of those V-6 FWD's littering the junkyards, buy the appropriate PROM from Chevy, a few wiring changes, such as Peter has suggested here and you are there! > I know the 85 uses > a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up units do not. Why is > one better then the other? Software is so much "smarter" than hardware. > Why does everone want to eleminate the cold > start injector? Better starts. > What is the difference between the speed density system > and the mass Air Flow? How the amount of air in the cylinder is determined. > Would one be more desirable for my application? Yes, the MAF is (IMHO) ugly! And you have to mount it somewhere. The MAP allows you to just put a K&N on the Throttle body. > Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes > the 89 EPROM, why? I like the 91 code for the MAP. It is just the little improvements along the way.... Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 03:02:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA18028; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:56:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA18023; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:56:05 -0500 Received: from van-52-0636.direct.ca (van-52-0636.direct.ca [204.174.253.36]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id SAA22871 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:55:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701140255.SAA22871@aphex.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:41:42 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: 89 Calpak the last Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Howday all Had a good look at the 89 calpak. The code is similiar although a bit simpler than the 90-92. Disable Vats by setting bit 4 of H0014 to 0 and disable Egr by setting bit 3 of H01DE to 0. Dissemble the first page starting at HC710 to figure out how to dissable the check sum and report back. That should get all you guys going. PS while MAF is quite adaptable I find the throttle response snappier on Map systems. Just an observation. Remember most systems are self tuning to +- 10% or so under closed loop. If you look at the BLM and see numbers around 140 you will have to get into the code some more. Later: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 05:23:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18806; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:14:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA18801; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:14:15 -0500 Received: from warloch (p2s22.beaches.net [206.240.81.87]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05312 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:14:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701140514.XAA05312@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: More TPI questions from me Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:10:14 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. I know the 85 uses > a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up units do not. Why is Another difference is the 85 system used a MAFS module to control the burn off cycle for the MAF. In 86 it was moved into the ECM. > one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the cold The main reason for this is it adds an additional problem for those converting to a speed density system. The later model engines don't provide a way to connect the cold start injector and you would then have to explain to the smog refs why this injector was not used. (Actually if the wires were run far enough back into the harness the refs would mostly never know the difference.) > start injector? What is the difference between the speed density system > and the mass Air Flow? Would one be more desirable for my application? MAF is better for a modified engine since it can adapt to a wider range than a SD system. SD is better since it doesn't require an expensive MAF and extra wiring and plumbing. To each his own. > Is one system better? Also, it seems as if everone on the list perferes > the 89 EPROM, why? Actually not everyone prefers the 89 model. I happen to prefer the 90-92 speed density systems. This is mainly due to my preference for big block engines. The MAF is easily maxed out with a deep breathing 427! :) John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 05:34:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA18842; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:28:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA18837; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:28:42 -0500 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IE6KHHDJA800009H@UALR.EDU>; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:28:39 CDT Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 07:08:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: octane booster To: diy_efi Message-id: <320346.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -> Excuse my ignorance: Is this (MTBE) what oxygenates the fuel -> in Calif? I've noticed my car pinging *more* since this gas started -> being used year round. Yet I believe someone said this adds -> octane. Did I remember that wrong? Crazed psychotics (such as myself) have observed even closed-loop EFI engines sometimes have trouble with fuel heavily contaminated with MTBE, which can lean the engine out past the learn limit of the ECU. Of course this is pure BS, as many OFFICIAL STUDIES have PROVED no such thing can happen. MTBE is GOOD for you. Just sit right here in this chair, comrade, while we hook up these nice electrodes... MTBE is bad news in fuel. It is put in fuel for political reasons, not chemistry. ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 06:22:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA18939; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:18:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from usher.ravenet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA18934; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:18:26 -0500 Received: from default ([204.176.14.61]) by usher.ravenet.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10293) with ESMTP id AAA73 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:42:02 -0500 From: alex@ravenet.com (Alex C. Green) To: Subject: Re: Calpak and Boost Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:17:57 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970114064201403.AAA73@default> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Peter. ---------- > From: peter paul fenske > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Calpak and Boost > Date: Saturday, January 11, 1997 10:09 AM > > Hi All > > Just was interested if anyone had the eprom contents of the syclone > calpak. If not ok just have to spend some money. I have a copy of the Syclone mem-cal. There were 3 versions released. The first and original one. The second one was issued as per GMC's TSB primarily due to poor/rough idle. The 3rd one was issued for the Saudi Syclones that were exported to Saudi Arabia. It disabled the O2 sensor among other things. The Saudi Sy's didn't have a cat installed. They came equipped with an exhaust resonator, twin mufflers and twin tail pipes. Several other malfunction flags were disabled on the Saudi chip. Plus, there's also a handful of aftermarket mem-cals that were made available. Some better then others. > > Also if someone can send me the 89 tpi prom I could have a look > and see what it would take to disable the egr and vats for you > guys. > > With the syclone stuff I am getting serious about writing some > code and adding it to the 730 tpi stuff. What I want to do > is interecept the map a/d reads using a 2 bar map instead of > a 1 bar. Huh? Both the GMC Syclone and GMC Typhoon came with a 2bar map sensor from the factory. They never had a 1 bar map sensor. It would be really nice to recal the chip for a 3bar map sensor. I for one could actually take advantage of a 3bar map sensor. Unfortunately, no-one has a 3-bar chip yet. > When pressure exceed baro or a calibrated value I intend > to switch the open loop calibration to my own table. Open loop doesn't last very long. As soon as the 3 wire heated O2 sensor warms up, the ECM goes into closed loop. I'm confused. What would be the point in running another cal in open loop? > Also switch > in an external driver for additional injectors when the boost > from the vortech cuts in. Keep in mind that the Sy/Ty engine is not a regular Vortec-V6 with a turbo strapped on. The heads are different. They used the fast burn heads. As well as the pistons and connecting rods. The pistons are the Corvette Hypereutectic pistons. Not to mention the entire intake is different too. And obviously, the compression is different. There is a tech paper published by SAE PN#910682 entitled "The Turbo/Intercooled Syclone Engine" that can give you all the exact details about the motor, turbo, ECM, and other related materials. This is similiar to what is done in > the LT5 to switch in the extra injectors. Hmmmm. Sounds like a good idea, except where are you going to install this extra injector(s)? Out of all the Sy/Ty owners I know, I've never seen this done. That's not to say that it can't be though. > > I would like to see how the Map reads are done in the syclone. > > Tnx everybody: peter L8TR -------------------------------------------------- Alex C. Green 1992 GMC Typhoon #1153 (Green/Gray) Hockessin, Delaware E-Mail: alex@ravenet.com -------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 12:03:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA19474; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:54:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA19469; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:54:39 -0500 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk [128.243.169.194] by nottingham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.58 #10) id 0vk7Rg-0000HQ-00; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:54:24 +0000 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 14 Jan 97 11:54:33 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 14 Jan 97 11:54:10 GMT0BST From: "M HILL" Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:54:01 GMT0BST Subject: Weber Carburettor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am looking at making some throttle bodies to fit onto a twin choke weber inlet manifold. Unfortunately I don't have the manifold yet and was wondering if anybody would have the dimensions for the studs and inlet port spacings so that I can get started on the throttle bodies. Martin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 12:52:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA19534; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:43:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA19529; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:43:25 -0500 Received: from gateway.ccii.co.za [196.3.224.65] by aztec.co.za with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0vk8Ct-000awvC; Tue, 14 Jan 97 14:43 EET Received: from wrm.ccii.co.za (wrm.ccii.co.za [196.3.224.81]) by gateway.ccii.co.za (8.7.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA07920 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:46:36 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:46:36 +0200 Message-Id: <199701141246.OAA07920@gateway.ccii.co.za> X-Sender: wrm@gateway.ccii.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: Re: MAFS vs Speed Density TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: Tuck *snip* > -Decal from the box I came in. You, you, you *pervert* ! :-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 13:27:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA19687; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:22:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA19682; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:22:20 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA03399 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:22:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:22:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970114082219_1418905486@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-14 00:46:24 EST, you write: > course this is pure BS, as many OFFICIAL STUDIES have PROVED no such > thing can happen. MTBE is GOOD for you. Just sit right here in this > chair, comrade, while we hook up these nice electrodes... The study group hired for this must have been the same one that for years has determined smoking is harmess and non-addictive for companies like Rj Reynolds, etc. Hey, everything "study groups" say must be true. I've been smoking since I was 14 and its not slightly addictive. . Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 14:31:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA20036; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:25:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay6.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA20031; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:25:12 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: camelot.dsccc.com [192.245.102.21]) id QQbylt01111; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA10199; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:27:16 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010119; Tue Jan 14 08:26:48 1997 Received: from spd.dsccc.com (spdmail.spd.dsccc.com [101.25.2.34]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA13393 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:25:24 -0600 Received: from sun1004.spd.dsccc.com by spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA22734; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:27:34 -0600 Received: by sun1004.spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03282; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:27:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:27:34 -0600 From: txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com (Terry Hartman) Message-Id: <199701141427.IAA03282@sun1004.spd.dsccc.com> To: diy_efi Subject: More TPI questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: g0+R9lhNhibsFacrZoVwDA== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > From: John Hess > > What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. > > Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system and > was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty > consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same > system) > > I know the 85 uses a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up > units do not. Why is > one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the > cold > start injector? > I don't know that EVERYONE DOES. I do. The cold start injector is > simply something else to go awry. If it can be gotten rid of with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > programming, then do so. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start injector on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) ?? thanks for any insight/advise (this may lead to more questions ;) ) T. -- Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 15:16:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA20112; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:13:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA20107; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:13:45 -0500 Received: from pmf16.rt66.com (pmf27.rt66.com [206.206.85.47]) by Rt66.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA11547; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:14:59 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32DBB084.11D8@rt66.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:12:52 -0800 From: "Michael D. Porter" Organization: None whatsoever X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: EAXMJHI@ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk Subject: Re: Weber Carburettor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi M HILL wrote: > > I am looking at making some throttle bodies to fit onto a twin choke weber inlet > manifold. Unfortunately I don't have the manifold yet and was > wondering if anybody would have the dimensions for the studs and inlet > port spacings so that I can get started on the throttle bodies. > Martin, these dimensions can be found in almost any Weber technical guide (reprinted from Messrs. Weber). Haynes has a guide which includes this flange drawing for DCOEs (I assume that's what you're looking for), as does one or possibly both volumes of John Passini's books on Webers (the first book is on theory, the second is on tuning). As I recall, flange dimensions are the same for all the DCOEs, as are bore centers. The Haynes book is #393, and roughly, bore centers are 90mm apart, stud hole diameters are 8.5mm, studs are 72mm apart on a skewed 16mm axis to the bore centers. Radii outboard of the stud centers is 11mm. However, I'm curious--are you doing this as a project for school, and have the machining capability at the school? Otherwise, throttle bodies made to mate to a DCOE manifold are commonly available both here in the US and in England (although they are a bit pricey!). If for a carburetor flange other than DCOE, I'd try the Passini theory book (vol. 1) first. Cheers. -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 18:36:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20364; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:30:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sequoia by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20358; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:30:13 -0500 Received: from tlunix.tls.mms.fr by sequoia (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA27866; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:30:11 GMT Received: by tlunix.tls.mms.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1239PM) id AA27235; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:29:38 +0100 X400-Received: by mta tlunix-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 14 Jan 1997 18:29:37 +0000 X400-Received: by mta comete-mta in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; converted (IA5-Text); Relayed; 14 Jan 1997 18:09:36 +0000 X400-Received: by mta COMET1 in /PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; 14 Jan 1997 18:24:38 +0000 Date: 14 Jan 1997 18:24:38 +0000 X400-Originator: Eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr X400-Recipients: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/;83428141107991/456867@COMETE] Discarded-X400-Mts-Extensions: (43) (12) (2) (135) (115) (5) (6) (3) From: "Eric DECOUX" To: DIY_EFI Subject: 8051 tools Importance: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential Autoforwarded: FALSE Message-Id: <"E277IQW3YFE9*/DD.XMRROUTE=DECOUX(a)COMETE(a)A1/PRMD=MATES400/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/"@MHS> Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (6), (1) (0) (10021) (7) (1) (0) (1) Content-Identifier: E277IQW3YFE9 X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi hello, who knows where I could find a free 8051 disassembler/simulator. Thanks. Eric (email : eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr) PS: I already have DIS8051 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 18:39:44 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20393; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:39:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20388; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:39:29 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id MAA26641; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:38:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma026633; Tue, 14 Jan 97 12:38:39 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0218.364D0860@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:41:07 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'FJB203@aol.com'" Subject: RE: Motronic Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:41:16 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi AND, they probably aren't going to trace you through the reverse engineering process they utilized to obtain the information. In many cases, these guys reverse engineered GM's product for the sole purpose of being able to make modifications (with NO support from GM or anyone else). The bad part of this is that (at least some of them) they end up being intimidated (again, by GM) into paying GM royalties for their hard won knowledge. This doesn't mean I would not like to get the information without working for it. It is a simple statement of what the reality really is for those who don't know. John ---------- From: FJB203@aol.com[SMTP:FJB203@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 13, 1997 10:03 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Motronic In a message dated 97-01-13 10:19:13 EST, you write: > on your own. The basic information is available; but, don't > denigrate someone who has been helpful simply because he won't > broadcast the source of his/her livelihood to the world over an open > internet forum! I agree John, and all I can say is "of course not". I'm in the process of learning about the GM ALDL and will take whatever comes my way as far as information and schematics, but I realize someone who invented a nifty scanner/tester isn't about to give me their schematic . But with basic information, these devices can be reverse engineered . Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 18:44:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20411; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:42:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20406; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:42:17 -0500 Received: from [164.107.168.33] (rl2038-1.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.168.33]) by mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26895 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:42:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701141842.NAA26895@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:16:29 -0600 To: diy_efi From: jwest@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Joe West) Subject: injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings: I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about using this chip in any design! Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has this chip in stock in single quantitys ? Thanks in advance Joseph D. West Electronics Lab. Supervisor College of Mechanical Eng. Ohio State University (614) 292-2845 Fax (614) 292-3163 From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 18:44:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20419; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:43:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20414; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:42:59 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id MAA26905; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:42:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma026861; Tue, 14 Jan 97 12:42:04 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0218.AEF5B460@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:44:29 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Stephen Dubovsky'" Subject: RE: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:44:38 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: Stephen Dubovsky[SMTP:dubovsky@vt.edu] Sent: Monday, January 13, 1997 10:33 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Airflow measurement - again... Interesting to see the strain gauge idea is getting more airtime again... >engine before. If I remember right, it was about 14" H20 at redline. >The thing maintained about 5" H20 from about 1000 to 4500 rpm's at full >throttle where it was fully opened, then sloped up to 14" by 6500 rpm's. Sorry todd, but whats the psi/inH20 conversion? Just dont have a 'feel' what 14"H20 of pressure is;) Seems you can get more than a few ponies back when you change an old 911 w/ K-jetronic to a MAF/MAP EFI system. Someone also questioned the restiction/cost issue of strain gauges. On the restriction issue, the object can be very small (pea sized). Again, pea sized is significantly larger than the wire in cross sectional area and in the resulting turbulence of high velocity air flow. JAH To measure the force on an object, it doesn't need to be deflected (well, a VERY small amount). A small deflection requirement costs more energy than a no deflection requirement, no matter how slight. JAH You put an object on a square beam of 6160 Al (or some other material that you know deformation vs force) and glue (using Cya - instant glue) strain gauges on the front and back of the beam. When airflow appllies a force to your object, the beam bends a VERY small amount which makes one side of the beam longer than the other (the upstram side is in expansion, and the downstream side is in compression). A strain gauge is actually a thin film resistor and when compressed the resistor gets 'shorter' and the R will go down (and of course, goes up when stretched). This allows you to measure the 'strain' on the beam. Now, you can use a pea sized object w/ a very small beam to measure very tiny forces, or use a huge chunk of Al to measure the weight of a multi-ton dump truck, all w/ the exact same 2 gauges. On the cost issue, load cells are expensive. The strain gauges to make them are very cheap (somewhere in the range of $2-10 each). An instrumentation quality load cell might use a little more expensive gauges, but they are only little Resistors. I imagine most of the cost is in the beam material and machining it to shape so the gauge output is linear. Then again, there are really nice load cells in these <$60 digital scales on which we gauge our holiday consumption;) Always glad to put in my $0.02. Just remember, free advice is worth what you paid for it;) SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 19:02:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA20472; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:58:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA20467; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:58:28 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id MAA27601; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:57:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma027587; Tue, 14 Jan 97 12:57:21 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC021A.D3749750@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:59:49 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com'" Subject: RE: More TPI questions Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:59:58 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com[SMTP:txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 8:28 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: More TPI questions > > From: John Hess > > What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. > > Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system and > was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty > consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same > system) > > I know the 85 uses a cold-start injector system while the 89 and up > units do not. Why is > one better then the other? Why does everone want to eleminate the > cold > start injector? > I don't know that EVERYONE DOES. I do. The cold start injector is > simply something else to go awry. If it can be gotten rid of with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > programming, then do so. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start injector on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) ?? Yes! You can do exactly that!. It is generally recommended that you disconnect the lead to the existing cold-start valve and, in fact, completely remove it and plug up the hole in your manifold and fuel rail. I have not accomplished that, yet, but DID disconnect the lead. JAH thanks for any insight/advise (this may lead to more questions ;) ) T. -- Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:09:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20577; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20572; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:07:48 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA23861 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:07:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:07:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970114150739_38412675@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: octane booster Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-14 00:46:24 EST, you write: > > Excuse my ignorance: Is this (MTBE) what oxygenates the fuel > -> in Calif? I've noticed my car pinging *more* since this gas started > -> being used year round. Yet I believe someone said this adds > -> octane. Did I remember that wrong? > > Crazed psychotics (such as myself) have observed even closed-loop EFI > engines sometimes have trouble with fuel heavily contaminated with MTBE, > which can lean the engine out past the learn limit of the ECU. Of > course this is pure BS, as many OFFICIAL STUDIES have PROVED no such > thing can happen. MTBE is GOOD for you. Just sit right here in this > chair, comrade, while we hook up these nice electrodes... > > MTBE is bad news in fuel. It is put in fuel for political reasons, not > chemistry. > ====dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= > can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... > ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT > ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== So I wasn't goin nuts. The fuel does make our cars ping more. I can't believe they get away with this crap. I have to de-tune my cars to run on this gabage?!! Oh, tell me about this 5.0 RX7. Sounds very impressive... Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:10:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20568; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:06:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20563; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:06:19 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:06:08 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC021B.B4DBAF80@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:06:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC021B.B4DBAF80@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: 8051 tools Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:06:04 -0700 Encoding: 23 TEXT, 39 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Eric, Don't remember where I got it but I have a good freeware disassembler d51v22.zip. I can email it directly to you if you're interested. Peter S. ---------- From: Eric DECOUX Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 11:24 AM To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 8051 tools hello, who knows where I could find a free 8051 disassembler/simulator. Thanks. Eric (email : eric.decoux@tls.mms.fr) PS: I already have DIS8051 begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@@4`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !``\```!213H@.# U,2!T;V]L`!X,`0````4```!33510 M`````!X`'PP!````$P```'!E=&5R0&%S<&5NL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K FAE; ,@1&SJ9P*#-!,-?0J ",\)V>([%Y\R M-34"@ J!#;'!"V!N9S$P,Q0@"PI+$O(,`6,`0"!%!1!CUBP*A0J%1 (@)P5 M%Z!G!X &T 20('<4\!>@(%!)(&=O!4!I!4!BKG4%0!\`$ M<5,F#0KT;&D(,3@P`M%I+3$TGC0-\ S0*5,+63$V"J#G`V E@"0`("TK=PJ' M*BOK## J]D8#83HL?BKV#(*#'',5,$5#3U58+!]?+2T&8 (P+E\O:U0*4'- M9&%Y+"!*`'!U#PK )# I4#5P,3DY-Z$V`#$Z,C03<$TP[QDM+51O,R\O:T1) M6:!?149)0 6@=1H"1@:VYO=P0@ M'J;_.Z(@D0N () @0""R080A2GHO`)!M.\ \T 6P)@U4L1' ;FMS)@TP,R@C M-!,_L 9Q8RX%@G5X0+,D$$N@;6U+H -0*1S@863W)# ? M\SL@4T&20C]#3AO5%RKV"H46P0!5D `#`! 0``````,`$1 `````0 `',-!" MWSA6`KP!0 `(,-!"WSA6`KP!'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<` #`+X! ` end From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:13:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20614; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:12:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20609; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:12:45 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11424; Tue, 14 Jan 97 12:16:48 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA07610; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:09:13 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970114140951.006a6248@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:09:52 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: injector driver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:16 PM 1/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >using this chip in any design! > >Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has >this chip in stock in single quantitys ? > You can get free samples direct from National for this part. Go to their WWW site, (www.nsc.com) search for the part number, then click on the "samples" part of the matrix. Give them your address, etc. Seems to take a week or so to get them. --steve > > >Thanks in advance > >Joseph D. West >Electronics Lab. Supervisor >College of Mechanical Eng. >Ohio State University > >(614) 292-2845 >Fax (614) 292-3163 > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:17:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20634; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:17:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20628; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:17:28 -0500 Received: from mfahrion.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA19153 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:15:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701142115.PAA19153@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:17:38 +0000 Subject: Re: injector driver Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi 4 week delivery is quite good for electronic parts. 4-6 weeks is pretty typical of most things and that is much much better than 1 year ago. Many "standard" components were 12-20 weeks - a couple were even 40+ weeks! Made our purchasing manager lose his hair. At any rate - a 4 week delivery wouldn't scare me off from designing in a part. 12-16 weeks, maybe. > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver > chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in > stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about > using this chip in any design! > > Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has > this chip in stock in single quantitys ? > > > > Thanks in advance > > Joseph D. West -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Fahrion mfahrion@bb-elec.com http://www.bb-elec.com/ B&B Electronics Mfg Co ph.(815) 433-5100 ext.215 fax (815) 434-7094 707 Dayton Road PO Box 1040 Ottawa IL 61350 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:36:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20665; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:32:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from upsmot02.msn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20660; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:32:47 -0500 Received: from upmajb06 ([204.95.110.89]) by upsmot02.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id MAA24060 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:29:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 20:21:23 UT From: "Orin Harding" Message-Id: To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Weber Carburettor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Martin, What manifold are you working with? I have an MGB/Weber DGV 32/36 that I can give you the info on if it will help. ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of M HILL Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 6:54 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Weber Carburettor I am looking at making some throttle bodies to fit onto a twin choke weber inlet manifold. Unfortunately I don't have the manifold yet and was wondering if anybody would have the dimensions for the studs and inlet port spacings so that I can get started on the throttle bodies. Martin. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:42:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20694; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:42:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20689; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:42:31 -0500 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id OAA19392 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:36:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from motgeg.geg.mot.com (motgeg.geg.mot.com [192.88.158.100]) by pobox.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id OAA19961 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:41:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from csn1.geg.mot.com by motgeg.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04969; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:34:42 -0700 Received: from [137.162.17.1] by csn1.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21228; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:41:32 -0700 Received: by gegpo1.geg.mot.com with Microsoft Mail id <32DBEFA7@gegpo1.geg.mot.com>; Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:42:15 MST From: Walters Chris To: "'diy_efi list'" Subject: Re: injector driver Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:37:00 MST Message-Id: <32DBEFA7@gegpo1.geg.mot.com> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >>chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >>stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >>using this chip in any design! >> >>Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has >>this chip in stock in single quantitys ? >> > >You can get free samples direct from National for this part. Go to their >WWW site, (www.nsc.com) search for the part number, then click on the >"samples" part of the matrix. Give them your address, etc. Seems to take >a week or so to get them. Cool! Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:50:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20723; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:47:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from motgate2.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20718; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:47:38 -0500 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id OAA21005 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:41:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from motgeg.geg.mot.com (motgeg.geg.mot.com [192.88.158.100]) by mothost.mot.com (8.7.6/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with SMTP id OAA23121 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:47:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from csn1.geg.mot.com by motgeg.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20625; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:40:21 -0700 Received: from [137.162.17.1] by csn1.geg.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21086; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:47:11 -0700 Received: by gegpo1.geg.mot.com with Microsoft Mail id <32DBF0F9@gegpo1.geg.mot.com>; Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:47:53 MST From: Walters Chris To: "'diy_efi list'" Subject: Re: octane booster Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:43:00 MST Message-Id: <32DBF0F9@gegpo1.geg.mot.com> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Crazed psychotics (such as myself) have observed even closed-loop EFI >> engines sometimes have trouble with fuel heavily contaminated with MTBE, >> which can lean the engine out past the learn limit of the ECU. Of >> course this is pure BS, as many OFFICIAL STUDIES have PROVED no such >> thing can happen. MTBE is GOOD for you. Just sit right here in this >> chair, comrade, while we hook up these nice electrodes... >> >> MTBE is bad news in fuel. It is put in fuel for political reasons, not >> chemistry. > >So I wasn't goin nuts. The fuel does make our cars ping more. I can't >believe they get away with this crap. I have to de-tune my cars to run on >this gabage?!! >Oh, tell me about this 5.0 RX7. Sounds very impressive... Schitzoid paranoids might believe it's all part of a federal conspiracy to a) get all pre-'90 cars off the road b) prevent all post-'90 cars from accelerating faster than a Geo Metro c) make even more money via sales taxes on the higher prices auto makers will charge to incorporate the latest EPA-mandated emissions equipment d) make even more money via fines on people who remove,disable,tamper or tinker with said emissions equipment Damn bureaucrats! A pox on them! Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 20:51:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA20716; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:46:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from goodall.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA20711; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:46:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (kicker@localhost) by goodall.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW96.12) with SMTP id MAA64525 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:46:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) From: "S. Lastuka" To: diy_efi Subject: Re: injector driver In-Reply-To: <199701141842.NAA26895@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I got National to Donate me 6 of them directly just call national. Sean On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Joe West wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver > chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in > stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about > using this chip in any design! > > Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has > this chip in stock in single quantitys ? > > > > Thanks in advance > > Joseph D. West > Electronics Lab. Supervisor > College of Mechanical Eng. > Ohio State University > > (614) 292-2845 > Fax (614) 292-3163 > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 21:20:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA20777; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:09:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA20772; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:09:14 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id OAA06410 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:09:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701142109.OAA06410@mail.xmission.com> Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 14 Jan 1997 21:09:07 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:09:43 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: 8051 tools Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 06:24 PM 1/14/97 +0000, you wrote: >PS: I already have DIS8051 DIS8051F is the best freeware disassembler on the market... You just need to fix up the operand files for the specific chips I have them done for the 8051, 8052, 80515, and 80517 Jim Conforti From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 21:46:35 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA20843; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:38:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA20838; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:38:02 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA21460 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA10551 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:37:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:37:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970114163244.30571924@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:16 PM 1/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >using this chip in any design! > In the EE world, a 4 week lead time is a dream. Most silicon parts (esp. BIG IGBT's and MOSFETs) have lead times of 12+ weeks and 30 weeks is not unheard of. Try getting something like an ADC from Maxim (their sales rep will even tell you not to design w/ some of their new parts since some huge company has already purchased all the ones scheduled to be made that year). SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 14 21:52:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA20871; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:49:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA20866; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:49:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199701142149.QAA20866@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA099768593; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:49:53 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: injector driver To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:49:53 EST In-Reply-To: <199701141842.NAA26895@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>; from "Joe West" at Jan 14, 97 3:16 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver > chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in > stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about > using this chip in any design! > > At least you can actually get the part. Try obtaining some of the other drivers, and you will think that one month wait is much more tolerable. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 01:37:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA22529; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:22:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA22524; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:22:25 -0500 Received: (from Uapdata@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA21757 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:22:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uapdata set sender to apdata.com.au!ross using -f >Received: from zero.apdata.com.au (zero [202.14.95.1]) by apdata.com.au (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA15424 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:54:55 +1030 (CST) Received: from zero.apdata.com.au (zero [202.14.95.1]) by apdata.com.au (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA15424 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:54:55 +1030 (CST) Received: (from ross@localhost) by zero.apdata.com.au (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA09645 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:51:32 -0600 From: Ross Forgione Message-Id: <199701151751.LAA09645@zero.apdata.com.au> Subject: Re: injector driver To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:51:31 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199701141842.NAA26895@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu> from "Joe West" at Jan 14, 97 03:16:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver > chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in > stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about > using this chip in any design! > > Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has > this chip in stock in single quantitys ? > Joe, I dont know if these companies exist in your neck of the woods, but here in Aus we use RS Components and Farnel as suppliers of hard to get stuff. I beleive these companies are UK based with offices across the Globe. I cant get my hands on the catalogues right now (our stock controllers door is locked). I will check when he returns. *Warning* be prepared to pay a little more from these guys. They are conveniant but in some cases a little expensive. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 02:45:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA22619; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:42:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA22614; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:42:20 -0500 Received: from ven-ca3-44.ix.netcom.com (ven-ca3-44.ix.netcom.com [207.92.176.108]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01950 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:42:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:42:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199701150242.SAA01950@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi If you would consider a single chip solution, I think I saw mention that the efi company everyone loves to hate (Electromotive) will sell the Cherry injector drivers. Fred At 11:51 AM 1/15/97 -0600, you wrote: >> Greetings: >> >> I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >> chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >> stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >> using this chip in any design! >> >> Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has >> this chip in stock in single quantitys ? >> From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 03:34:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA22850; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:31:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA22845; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:30:57 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD29.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.73]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA05059 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:30:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:30:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701150330.TAA05059@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: Cold Start Injector Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Terry All you have to is change proms and remove fuse for cold start injector (crank fuse in fuse block). If you want you can buy plugs for fuel rail and runner. Have done the plugs for neater look. Like the warm restart with 89 prom. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 10:29:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA23434; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:22:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nottingham.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA23427; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:20:28 -0500 Received: from ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk [128.243.169.194] by nottingham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.58 #10) id 0vkSRs-0005tv-00; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:20:00 +0000 Received: from EAN2/MERCURYQ by ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); 15 Jan 97 10:20:07 GMT0BST Received: from MERCURYQ by EAN2 (Mercury 1.21); 15 Jan 97 10:19:42 GMT0BST From: "M HILL" Organization: Mech Eng, University of Nottingham To: diy_efi Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:19:41 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Weber Carburettor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > M HILL wrote: > > > > I am looking at making some throttle bodies to fit onto a twin choke weber inlet > > manifold. Unfortunately I don't have the manifold yet and was > > wondering if anybody would have the dimensions for the studs and inlet > > port spacings so that I can get started on the throttle bodies. > > > > Martin, these dimensions can be found in almost any Weber technical > guide (reprinted from Messrs. Weber). Haynes has a guide which includes > this flange drawing for DCOEs (I assume that's what you're looking for), > as does one or possibly both volumes of John Passini's books on Webers > (the first book is on theory, the second is on tuning). As I recall, > flange dimensions are the same for all the DCOEs, as are bore centers. > The Haynes book is #393, and roughly, bore centers are 90mm apart, stud > hole diameters are 8.5mm, studs are 72mm apart on a skewed 16mm axis to > the bore centers. Radii outboard of the stud centers is 11mm. > > However, I'm curious--are you doing this as a project for school, and > have the machining capability at the school? Otherwise, throttle bodies > made to mate to a DCOE manifold are commonly available both here in the > US and in England (although they are a bit pricey!). If for a > carburetor flange other than DCOE, I'd try the Passini theory book (vol. > 1) first. > Cheers. > > -- Thanks for the info. I'll go and see if I can find that book to look it up. The manifold will be for the DCOE carburettor. It is to run on a 4.6l rover V8 (old buick 205ci) engine in a westfield kit car. The throttle bodies are required so we can run our own injection system on the vehicle but make the system as low profile as possible. We have the capability to do the machining ourselves and therefore don't want to pay the high price for other peoples throttle bodies. The other option was to try to do some slide plate throttles but I have heard there can be some serious problems with those. Martin From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 13:42:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA23881; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:37:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from geocities.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA23875; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:37:15 -0500 Received: from mail.geocities.com (stamp.cowan.edu.au [139.230.127.130]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA01754 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:36:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701151336.FAA01754@geocities.com> X-Sender: dzorde@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: dzorde@geocities.com (dzorde) Subject: Mailer Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi folks, This is slightly efi unrelated, but I hope you don't mind. Now that I have been stuck with using the Eudora 2.03 mail program, I'm wondering, doesn't this mailer have an address book ? I haven't found one, and it's a pain to have to type them in every time you want to send a mail. With so many people on this list someone has to know. If anyone knows, don't waste space and just mail me directly. Much appreciated Dan dzorde@geocities.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 13:52:35 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA23919; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:50:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from geocities.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA23914; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:50:26 -0500 Received: from mail.geocities.com (stamp.cowan.edu.au [139.230.127.130]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10343 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:45:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:45:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701151345.FAA10343@geocities.com> X-Sender: dzorde@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: dzorde@geocities.com (dzorde) Subject: mailer (problem solved) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry guys, Disregard first message on mailer, I just worked out the answer myself. It was actually pretty obvious. Dan dzorde@geocities.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 15:08:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA24016; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:59:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Rt66.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA24011; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:59:20 -0500 Received: from pmf21.rt66.com (pmf21.rt66.com [206.206.85.41]) by Rt66.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22095; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:00:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32DCFEB0.38AF@rt66.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:58:40 -0800 From: "Michael D. Porter" Organization: None whatsoever X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: EAXMJHI@ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk Subject: Re: Weber Carburettor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi M HILL wrote: > > Thanks for the info. I'll go and see if I can find that book to look > it up. The manifold will be for the DCOE carburettor. It is to > run on a 4.6l rover V8 (old buick 205ci) engine in a westfield kit > car. The throttle bodies are required so we can run our own > injection system on the vehicle but make the system as low profile as > possible. And I'm still curious--of course, there may be many different parts available in the UK which are unknown here, but I do not ever recall seeing a crossflow DCOE manifold for the Rover/BOP V-8. Who makes this item? And are the carb mounting flanges almost vertical? Sounds as if it might be a real trick getting four DCOE flanges into the small space of the 215 ci bore centers and still have the runners approximately the same. I've seen such manifolds for large V-8s here, but not for that engine. > We have the capability to do the machining ourselves and > therefore don't want to pay the high price for other peoples throttle > bodies. Understand that thinking very well. > The other option was to try to do some slide plate throttles > but I have heard there can be some serious problems with those. Principally with sealing the slides in the spectacle plates, as I understand--but that's not a huge problem on a racing engine which is going to be at WOT most of the time. Does present a problem when one needs a reasonably reliable idle on a street engine. On the above, I remembered that I have the flanges drawn in AutoCAD somewhere for manifolds I've been working on. If you come up dry finding the Weber technical drawing, let me know what graphics formats you can read and if your provider accepts file attaches, and I'll send it out. Cheers. > Martin > -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 15:22:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA24052; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:13:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relay6.UU.NET by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA24047; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:13:47 -0500 Received: from offramp.dsccc.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: camelot.dsccc.com [192.245.102.21]) id QQbypo01575; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by offramp.dsccc.com (5.67b/SMI-V1.8) id AA26909; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:15:13 -0600 Received: from onramp(192.245.102.129) by offramp via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma026587; Wed Jan 15 09:13:40 1997 Received: from spd.dsccc.com (spdmail.spd.dsccc.com [101.25.2.34]) by camelot.dsccc.com (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA27125 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:12:11 -0600 Received: from sun1004.spd.dsccc.com by spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA05885; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:14:17 -0600 Received: by sun1004.spd.dsccc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA05677; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:14:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:14:17 -0600 From: txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com (Terry Hartman) Message-Id: <199701151514.JAA05677@sun1004.spd.dsccc.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Even More TPI questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: vxLTvzASu6WBfcH+fNc94w== Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > > Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start > > injector > > on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference > > that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) > > (this may lead to more questions ;) ) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Yes! You can do exactly that!. It is generally recommended that you > disconnect the lead to the existing cold-start valve and, in fact, > completely remove it and plug up the hole in your manifold and fuel > rail. I have not accomplished that, yet, but DID disconnect the lead. > JAH Great - that's good to know. As predicted, I have more questions now.... Let's say I wasn't quite honest when I said "basically stock". Let's say that I have a Vortech supercharger and that I know that I'm a little lean in the upper rpm range where it's starting to really put out some boost.... (uh oh - detonation!) Is there an easy way to use this 9th injector(the cold-start one) to help keep me out of detonation - mainly as a crutch for too small factory injectors?? I know I don't want to keep raising the fuel pressure because the injectors don't last long under 80+psi right?? So maybe use an rpm activated switch to trigger this injector at say 3500rpm??? Is this feasible?? thanks again for any insight! T. -- Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 15:42:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA24094; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:38:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailc.surrey.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA24089; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:38:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199701151538.KAA24089@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from cvpc42.civ.surrey.ac.uk by mailc.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:38:41 +0000 X-Sender: cvs1bl@pop.surrey.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: B.Le-Page@surrey.ac.uk (Brian Le Page) Subject: Re: Mailer PP-Warning: No Date field - one added at mailc.surrey.ac.uk Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:38:42 +0000 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dan under the Window menu is an option called Nicknames. You can put the addresses in there. Make sure you double click on the nickname in the lefthand column so that it has a tick by it. The means that when you pull down the Message menu and drag down to the New Message To option the nickname will appear. Hope that is clearer than it looks to me. B. >Hi folks, > >This is slightly efi unrelated, but I hope you don't mind. Now that I have >been stuck with using the Eudora 2.03 mail program, I'm wondering, doesn't >this mailer have an address book ? I haven't found one, and it's a pain to >have to type them in every time you want to send a mail. > >With so many people on this list someone has to know. If anyone knows, >don't waste space and just mail me directly. > >Much appreciated > >Dan dzorde@geocities.com > > > > Brian H Le Page Department of Physics, University of Surrey Guildford, Surrey, GU2 5XH, United Kingdom Tel.+44 1483 300800 ext2346 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 15:42:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA24101; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:40:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailc.surrey.ac.uk by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA24096; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:39:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199701151539.KAA24096@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from cvpc42.civ.surrey.ac.uk by mailc.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:39:49 +0000 X-Sender: cvs1bl@pop.surrey.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: B.Le-Page@surrey.ac.uk (Brian Le Page) Subject: Re: mailer (problem solved) PP-Warning: No Date field - one added at mailc.surrey.ac.uk Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:39:51 +0000 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry everyone, that will teach me to read all of the mail before I reply to one! B. >Sorry guys, > >Disregard first message on mailer, I just worked out the answer myself. It >was actually pretty obvious. > >Dan dzorde@geocities.com > > > Brian H Le Page Department of Physics, University of Surrey Guildford, Surrey, GU2 5XH, United Kingdom Tel.+44 1483 300800 ext2346 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 16:13:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA24156; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:10:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.cs.mercer.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA24151; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:10:06 -0500 Received: by falcon.cs.mercer.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA03026; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:05:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:05:58 -0500 (EST) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: Funny Honda CBR600F1 Ignition pickoff Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Have a question: The ignition pickoff on the Honda CBR600 has 9 teeth, then a gap of about 120 degrees. Anybody know why they did this? I'm trying to use the same pickup (splice the wire) to synchronize (hopefully in a seq. port FI) the injection to the intake valve openings. Any tips? Does anyone here know how the spark unit works? Thanks! Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 16:29:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA24185; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:25:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA24180; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:25:35 -0500 Received: from nnsa.eds.com (nnsa.eds.com [130.174.31.78]) by ns1.eds.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA26860 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from kotsv1.delcoelect.com (koedvx02.delcoelect.com [144.250.32.3]) by nnsa.eds.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17210 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from kodeln12.delcoelect.com by kotsv1.delcoelect.com (PMDF V5.1-4 #8480) with SMTP id <01IE8NSDS3EO000CHF@kotsv1.delcoelect.com> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:25:19 EST Received: by kodeln12.delcoelect.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05b4 (287.3 12-16-1996)) id 05256420.0059E118 ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:21:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:21:34 -0500 From: Jeffrey R Muehl Subject: RE: More TPI questions To: diy_efi Message-id: <05256420.005847F4.00@kodeln12.delcoelect.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: DELCO Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ok, here we go... >What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. >> >> Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system >> and >> was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty >> consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same >> system) It was stated that the 85 -vs- 89 differences were "numerous". Were these differences just in the ECM or were sensors, TB, etc changed? I want to convert an 85 system to the 89 ECM. What's involved? If it's just a harness conversion, I'm not worried. >Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I >just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >injector >on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) Any help would be greatly appreciated! Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 16:40:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA24221; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:36:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.cs.mercer.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA24216; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:36:51 -0500 Received: by falcon.cs.mercer.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA12336; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:32:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:32:43 -0500 (EST) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: When to go into Closed-Loop? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ok... I have the Oxy sensors biased to ground (I figure I won't need that low reading) with a 1M resistor. I was planning on going into closed loop as soon as I get >0.2V on the sensor.... any comments? How do the "big boys" know when to go into closed loop? Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.edu http://falcon.mercer.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 18:05:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA24417; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:56:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA24412; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:56:41 -0500 Received: from cardinal.seet.bcit.bc.ca (cardinal.seet.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.147.60]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA23084 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:56:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:56:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701151756.JAA23084@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: Even More TPI questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all The cold start injector supplies a small amount of fuel With 0.5 bar boost you need a lot more fuel. Then the fuel supply has to be proportional to boost. When in doubt use a hobbs switch and turn it on I don't think it will help much though. CU: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 18:20:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA24453; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:12:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA24448; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:12:07 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id MAA06213; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:11:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma006210; Wed, 15 Jan 97 12:11:20 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC02DD.99168870@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:14:03 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com'" Subject: RE: Even More TPI questions Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:13:10 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com[SMTP:txhartma@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 1997 9:14 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Even More TPI questions > > > Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start > > injector > > on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference > > that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) > > (this may lead to more questions ;) ) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Yes! You can do exactly that!. It is generally recommended that you > disconnect the lead to the existing cold-start valve and, in fact, > completely remove it and plug up the hole in your manifold and fuel > rail. I have not accomplished that, yet, but DID disconnect the lead. > JAH Great - that's good to know. As predicted, I have more questions now.... Let's say I wasn't quite honest when I said "basically stock". Let's say that I have a Vortech supercharger and that I know that I'm a little lean in the upper rpm range where it's starting to really put out some boost.... (uh oh - detonation!) Is there an easy way to use this 9th injector(the cold-start one) to help keep me out of detonation - mainly as a crutch for too small factory injectors?? I know I don't want to keep raising the fuel pressure because the injectors don't last long under 80+psi right?? So maybe use an rpm activated switch to trigger this injector at say 3500rpm??? Is this feasible?? It is probably feasible; but, it would make much more sense to get with someone like Steve Cole at TTS and remap the PROM. Also, have you considered larger injectors? TTS Power Systems 1280 Kona Dr Compton, CA 90220 Telephone (310) 669-8101 thanks again for any insight! T. -- Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 20:45:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA24772; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:40:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24764; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:40:44 -0500 Received: from [164.107.168.33] (rl2038-1.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.168.33]) by mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27475 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:40:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701152040.PAA27475@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:14:49 -0600 To: diy_efi From: jwest@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Joe West) Subject: Thanks. Injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Many thanks to all those who replied on my queston for the LM1949. I was finally able to find some in the SO package from Allied. This will make the prototype a bit more interesting. As far as lead time goes I guess that has always been a sore spot with me. I dropped a project with a Motorola part due to a 6 month lead time and now I try to avoid all Motorola parts. If I cannot buy off the shelf I do not put it in my designs. Joseph D. West Electronics Lab. Supervisor College of Mechanical Eng. Ohio State University (614) 292-2845 Fax (614) 292-3163 From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 15 23:48:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA25165; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:42:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA25160; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:42:09 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id BBCIDLEK ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:41:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:40:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Electromotive TPI To: diy_efi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="tcpsmtp162605ab8751ab36125ab" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi * Note * This message contains an attachement that has been encoded using * Note * the MIME standard. If you see this portion of the message, the * Note * mail client you are using does not understand MIME. --tcpsmtp162605ab8751ab36125ab Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suspect injectors are significantly too large for application. --tcpsmtp162605ab8751ab36125ab Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="QUREY.EXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="QUREY.EXT" R3JlZXRpbmdzIHRvIGFsbCBvbiB0aGUgRElZX0VGSSBtYWlsZ3JvdXA6DQoNCiBGcm9tOiBSYXkg TmVDYWlzZSwgSnIuDQogUG9zdCBPZmZpY2UgQm94IDM4MDcNCiBHdWxmcG9ydCwgTVMgIDM5NTA1 DQogNjAxLTgyMy01Nzc5DQogZmF4IDYwMS04MzEtNDQ0NA0KIFJhbWJvQGRpdmVyc2ljb21tLmNv bQ0KDQogICAgICAgIEkgZmlyc3QgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyBwcm9ibGVtIHRvIE1yLiBCcnVjZSBC b3dsaW5nIHdobw0KICAgICAgICBhZHZpc2VkIG1lIHRvIHNoYXJlIHRoaXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgbWFp bGdyb3VwLiAgVGhhbmsgeW91DQogICAgICAgIEJydWNlIGZvciB0aGUgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbi4gIEkg aGF2ZSBzaG9ydGVuZWQgdGhlICJzcXJ0Ig0KICAgICAgICBieSBsb3dlcmluZyB0aGUgbWluaW11 bSB0dXJuIG9uIHRpbWUgZm9yIGluamVjdG9ycyB0byAwLg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSBo YXZlIHJlY2llbnRseSBwdXJjaGFzZWQgYW5kIGluc3RhbGxlZCBhbg0KICAgICAgICBFbGVjdHJv bW90aXZlIFRQSSBzeXN0ZW0uICBUaGUgc3lzdGVtIGlzIG1vdW50ZWQgYXRvcA0KICAgICAgICBh IENoZXZ5IEhPIDM1MCBaWjMgY3JhdGUgZW5naW5lLiAgVGhlIGNvbXByZXNzaW9uIHJhdGlvDQog ICAgICAgIGlzIDkuODoxLCBjYW0gLjQ3NC8uNTEwIGxpZnQgYW5kIC4yMDgvLjIyMSBkdXJhdGlv bi4gIA0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZSBUUEkgdG8gaGF2ZSBhIDYwMCBj Zm0gdGhyb3R0bGUNCiAgICAgICAgYm9keSBhbmQgaXQgY2FtZSB3aXRoIDMxIGxicy9ociBpbmpl Y3RvcnMuICBTYWlkIGluamVjdG9ycw0KICAgICAgICBhcmUgc2V0IHRvIGZpcmUgb25jZSBmb3Ig ZWFjaCB0aW1pbmcgZXZlbnQuICBTcXJ0LCBhdCBUREMNCiAgICAgICAgaW50YWtlIGFuZCBTcXVy dCwgYXQgVERDIGNvbXByZXNzaW9uLiAgVGhlIGZ1ZWwgcHJlc3N1cmUNCiAgICAgICAgaXMgcmVn dWxhdGVkIGJ5IGEgSG9sbGV5IDUxMi02IHZhY3VtZSBvcGVyYXRlZCBmdWVsIHByZXNzdXJlDQog ICAgICAgIHJlZ3VsYXRvci4NCg0KICAgICAgICBQUk9CTEVNOiAgRWFjaCB0aW1lIHRoZSBlbmdp bmUgZXhwZXJpZW5jZXMgbG9hZCwgdGhlcmUNCiAgICAgICAgaXMgcHJvbm91bmNlZCB2YWx2ZSB0 cmFpbiBub2lzZS4gICJDbGF0dGVyIiAgQSBzb3VuZA0KICAgICAgICB0aGF0IGlzIG1vc3QgY29t bW9ubHkgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB3aXRoIHBvb3IgZnVlbCBxdWFsaXR5Lg0KICAgICAgICAxMTAgb2N0 YW5lIGZ1ZWwgYW5kIHZhbHZlIGFkanVzdG1lbnQgaGFzIG5vdCBtYWRlIGFueQ0KICAgICAgICBz aWduaWZpY2FudCBkaWZmZXJlbmNlLiAgTG93ZXJpbmcgdGhlIG1pbmltYWwgb24gdGltZSBmb3IN CiAgICAgICAgdGhlIGluamVjdG9ycyBkb2VzIGhlbHAgdG8gc29tZSBkZWdyZWUuDQoNCiAgICAg ICAgQW55IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gb3IgdGhlb3J5IGlzIHdlbGNvbWUuDQogICAgICAgIE9mIGNvdXJz ZSBJIG5vdyByZWFsaXplIHRoYXQgbXkgYmlnZ2VzdCBtaXN0YWtlIHdhcyB0bw0KICAgICAgICBj aG9vc2UgdG8gYmVjb21lIGEgY3VzdG9tZXIvdmljdG9tIG9mIEVsZWN0cm9tb3RpdmUuDQoNCiAg ICAgICAgVEhBTktTLg0K --tcpsmtp162605ab8751ab36125ab Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --tcpsmtp162605ab8751ab36125ab-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 00:43:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA25236; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:39:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from goodall.u.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA25231; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:39:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (kicker@localhost) by goodall.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW96.12) with SMTP id QAA84988 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:39:08 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:39:08 -0800 (PST) From: "S. Lastuka" To: diy_efi Subject: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi WE are on a FSAE team and are designing an electronic fuel injection system from scratch. We are using the Motorola 68hc11 MCU. We have almost all the code written and tested but are having some trouble creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the pulse on in the first place? Please help. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 01:42:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA25800; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:36:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eecis.udel.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA25795; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:36:16 -0500 Received: from ss47.ssnet.com by stimpy.eecis.udel.edu id aa27883; 16 Jan 97 1:34 GMT Message-ID: <32DD82BF.5E23@eecis.udel.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:22:07 -0500 From: Dave Zug X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic References: <199701131753.JAA30064@pacific.telebyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chris Denzler wrote: > ... > So let me ask....Do the gurus approach the task from a software and hardware > perspective simultaneously, disassembling the code as well as using test > equipment to figure out what, when, where, and how? > - Chris I'm no guru, but before i learned to THINK MORE about what i was doing, i spent a month taking pot shots at chunks of the data area on the prom, zeroing out sections that looked "patternish" and using a DIVIDE AND CONQUER technique on the data. Without the luxary of STARTING the engine and seeing the effects on a scan tool, looking at scan values got me exactly confused, but evantually to finding spark table location, and certainly got me intimately familiar with eyeballing hex and knowing the decimal equivelant. so heres another vote for not using strictly a "hardware" method... definetly learn some code. Number ONE step is to find the checksum.. the program wont run or allow you to use a scan tool if you change bytes without addressing the checksum issue. dave~ 1989 W body vin-V P4 http://p3.net/89gpturbo.html From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 02:08:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA25839; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:03:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25834; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:02:58 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA04862 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:02:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:02:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970115210109_1343941474@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > WE are on a FSAE team and are designing an electronic fuel injection > system from scratch. We are using the Motorola 68hc11 MCU. We have First off, good choice on a CPU. They are cheap, avail in many, many case styles, and have eight A/D converters built in (you might learn some limitations as you folks tinker, but that's okay ). > creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with > using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be Driving a pulse driver can be as simple as an output transister (FET's are faster than Bipolar of course), however I'm thinking your question is pulse duration. The duration can come from a pre-calculated "map" within your eeprom for each RPM range (500-1k, 1k-1.5k, etc) and your system then adjusts automatically, following the engine. Another option is to monitor engine rotation so at certain points after the injection starts, the injector stops. However this introduces mechanical items into the mix. I'd go with the calculated map approach personally. BTW, what do you need a compare for on the output? Just curious, because I was under the impression that an injector is basically a coil that when energized, allows a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder based on the internal bore/valving assembly. I am not a fuel injection guru by any means... Frederic Breitwieser "HomeBrew Auto" Mailing List E-Mail: fjb203@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/fjb203/ 1993 Lincoln "Boomer" Continental 1989 AG "What color is that" Humvee 1998 "HomeBrew" From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 02:17:44 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA25868; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:13:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25862; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:13:34 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA21336 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:13:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:13:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970115211016_1045390889@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Is this the Tec II unit? Are these really a bad product? Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 02:35:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA25894; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:27:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25889; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:27:36 -0500 Received: from ven-ca3-56.ix.netcom.com (ven-ca3-56.ix.netcom.com [207.92.176.120]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA10098 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:27:28 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:27:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199701160227.SAA10098@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 04:39 PM 1/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >WE are on a FSAE team and are designing an electronic fuel injection >system from scratch. We are using the Motorola 68hc11 MCU. We have >almost all the code written and tested but are having some trouble >creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with >using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be >used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the >pulse on in the first place? Please help. > Just set the bit associated with that output high. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 02:49:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA25920; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:44:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA25915; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:43:57 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id BECJBDBI ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:42:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:41:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Creating a pulse for injector drivers To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi It is possible to use the ignition system to aquire the proper pulse que. The more accurate systems I have come across are the optical system used by GM in the LT1's and LT4's. I think they came out in 1992. There is info on the Web about them and parts avaliable through GM. The other is the use of a steel trigger wheel attached to the face of the harmonic balancer. All you need is to establish TDC intake on No 1. Remember that the sqrt time can not be more than 90% of the time it takes the piston to finish the intake stroke. Bruce Bowling has several helpful formulas avaliable on the net one of which I believe will help caculate piston speed. The trigger wheel also has an EM pick up that usually has a shielded cable. The signal from the EM pick up will allow ignition timing that is precise and also a que for the pulse. Hope this helps... I am just a Lawyer that likes to turn wrenches in his spare time. Sorry if I insulted your intelligence, if so it is most likely the result of a lack thereof on my part. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 04:25:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA26109; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:14:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA26104; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:14:13 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial86.voyager.net [207.74.103.86]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id XAA26606 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:12:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32DDE684.6A21@voyager.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:27:48 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: I got my TPI but it's missing a few parts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I just wanted to let you all know that I (the true magazine expert) have finally gotten a TPI for my engine: I don't have the wiring or the computer yet, but I'm a long way from that problem: It seems that my TPI setup is missing these parts: 1) Fuel pressure regulator & body, plus the rear crossover tube and the regulator connector tube to the fuel rail. It's a '88 5.7L fuel rail. 2) The throttle position sensor, and IAC solenoid. Does anyone have any spares? email me at: ws6transam@voyager.net Thanks. -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 06:06:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA26252; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:57:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA26247; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:57:36 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-101-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.111]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11296 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:57:30 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970116045916.0092b370@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:59:16 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi That's about it, actually from hamilton they quoted 4 weeks and had it in 2, but they are your best shot! Sandy At 03:16 PM 1/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >using this chip in any design! > >Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has >this chip in stock in single quantitys ? > > > >Thanks in advance > >Joseph D. West >Electronics Lab. Supervisor >College of Mechanical Eng. >Ohio State University > >(614) 292-2845 >Fax (614) 292-3163 > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 06:46:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA26330; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:36:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA26319; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:36:21 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-114-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.124]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16189 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:36:16 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970116053802.00937530@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:38:02 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I don't have the answer to your question, but, I remember some simple appnote or in one of the data books several examples that dealt with that problem. If you can't find some experts to help, let me know and I'll see if I can find the samples. You also might look at the Tim Dury Distributer-Less ignition, I don't have the web address where it is at (might be on the efi332 or diyefi website). Sandy At 04:39 PM 1/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >WE are on a FSAE team and are designing an electronic fuel injection >system from scratch. We are using the Motorola 68hc11 MCU. We have >almost all the code written and tested but are having some trouble >creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with >using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be >used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the >pulse on in the first place? Please help. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 06:46:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA26329; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:36:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA26317; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:36:19 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-114-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.124]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16175 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:36:12 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970116053758.00933874@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:37:58 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Not much better of a solution, at least you can get the National parts that are available to the public, try to buy those drivers in qty < billion, and you are at the mercy of a cherry, and they are not interested in selling to anyone but the big 3 automakers. I tried to get stocking distributer for most of their automotive parts, and it was a joke. I did find a place that has a few left overs, but that was it. Pricing also hurts from cherry. I like the part, but it is much harder to get then the LM1949, also the LM1949 can be used for IGN, which is another problem getting that functionality... Sandy At 06:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >If you would consider a single chip solution, I think I saw mention that >the efi company everyone loves to hate (Electromotive) will sell the Cherry >injector drivers. > >Fred > >At 11:51 AM 1/15/97 -0600, you wrote: >>> Greetings: >>> >>> I am trying to locate a supplier for the National LM1949 injector driver >>> chip. I have tried Digi-Key , Hamilton-hallmark, Allied so far not in >>> stock and 4 week order time is the standard reply. Makes you wonder about >>> using this chip in any design! >>> >>> Is their any other manufactor of injector drivers or a company who has >>> this chip in stock in single quantitys ? >>> > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 06:46:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA26335; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:36:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA26323; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:36:23 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-114-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.124]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16182 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:36:14 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970116053800.00937608@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:38:00 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Thanks. Injector driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dosen't sound like you could build much ;-) Wait till you try getting some of the IGBT's! Sandy At 05:14 PM 1/15/97 -0600, you wrote: > > Many thanks to all those who replied on my queston for the LM1949. I was >finally able to find some in the SO package from Allied. This will make >the prototype a bit more interesting. > >As far as lead time goes I guess that has always been a sore spot with me. >I dropped a project with a Motorola part due to a 6 month lead time and > now I try to avoid all Motorola parts. If I cannot buy off the shelf I >do not put it in my designs. > >Joseph D. West >Electronics Lab. Supervisor >College of Mechanical Eng. >Ohio State University > >(614) 292-2845 >Fax (614) 292-3163 > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 07:21:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA26395; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:05:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA26390; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:05:15 -0500 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id IAA13830; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:05:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from bond.nexus.se(146.75.32.1) by valle.nexus.se via smap (3.2) id xma013811; Thu, 16 Jan 97 08:04:45 +0100 Received: from sputnic.jrt.se (sputnic.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.4]) by bond.nexus.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA07176 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:04:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from dino.Jrt.SE (dino.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.2]) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA08954 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:05:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199701160805.JAA08954@sputnic.jrt.se> X-MAPI-MessageClass: IPM Priority: Normal To: diy_efi X-Mailer: FTP Software Internet Mail 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Johan Rodling Subject: RE: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:05:04 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi S. Lastuka wrote: [snip] >>An output compare can be >>used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the >>pulse on in the first place? Please help. I dont know if you are using all off the OC outputs, but if you don't, use = the OC1 to turn all other OC's on and then let the OC turn it self off. Thi= s is done by setting some bits in the OC1M reg (0x100C), each bit correspon= ds to one of the OC outputs. You should also set witch data to be output at= OC1 compare in the OC1D reg (0x100D). Hope this helps Regards=20 /JR -74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodlin= g@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 9= 0 91 =20 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 = 91 02 =20 SE-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 09:31:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA26568; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:22:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA26563; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:22:29 -0500 Received: from dave-home (cs5p14.ipswich.gil.com.au [203.1.72.109]) by iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au with SMTP id TAA12769 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:20:53 +1000 Message-ID: <32DDF405.2687@gil.com.au> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:25:25 +1000 From: David Chambers X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Creating a pulse for injector drivers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi S. Lastuka wrote: > > WE are on a FSAE team and are designing an electronic fuel injection > system from scratch. We are using the Motorola 68hc11 MCU. We have > almost all the code written and tested but are having some trouble > creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with > using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be > used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the > pulse on in the first place? Please help. Try this peice of code in C. It works. TCTL1=Timer control register 1 TCTL1=0; //disconnect OC from pin's PORTA=0x20; //injector on OC3 on TOC3=fueltime + TIC2; //load output comp register to turn injector off TCTL1=0x20; //set OC3 to turn injector off at compare David. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 12:00:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA26793; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:47:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sun1 by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA26788; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:47:53 -0500 Received: from BRM.SUN1 ([192.168.44.4]) by sun1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00488; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:40:27 -0600 Received: by BRM.SUN1 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0370.C38AB840@BRM.SUN1>; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:47:31 -0600 Message-Id: <01BC0370.C38AB840@BRM.SUN1> From: Bob McElroy To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: When to go into Closed-Loop? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:47:29 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ok... I have the Oxy sensors biased to ground (I figure I won't need = that low reading) with a 1M resistor. I was planning on going into closed loop = as=20 soon as I get >0.2V on the sensor.... any comments? How do the "big boys" know when to go into closed loop? _______________________________ I'm not familiar with the actual inner workings of the "big boys" EFI = systems, but I can tell you how I intend to determine when to go into = closed loop. Basically, I will look at engine temperature (is it at = least one-half of the way to normal operating temp.), throttle position = (I don't want to go into closed loop at <10% throttle/idle or >90% = throttle/WOT), and engine speed (am I running at higher than normal = engine speed and/or accelerating hard, but not at WOT.) I have been = working on defining what parameters I need to watch in order to = implement a fully developed EFI system. I have not implemented any of = this yet, and I do expect that there may be other things I need to take = into consideration. Anyone know of other things to monitor to determine = if closed loop is appropriate? =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity" "When everyone is in agreement, it signifies that no one thought very = hard." - Albert Einstein Bob McElroy Manufacturing Engineer Midcom, Inc. Waverly, IA =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 13:16:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA26994; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:08:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from geocities.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA26989; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:08:47 -0500 Received: from mail.geocities.com (ppppool.cowan.edu.au [139.230.127.130]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA25859 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:04:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:04:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701161304.FAA25859@geocities.com> X-Sender: dzorde@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: dzorde@geocities.com (dzorde) Subject: Re: Even More TPI questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've been thinking about using this injector for water/methanol injection, any ideas on that ? dzorde@geocities.com > > > > >
>Postage paid by:
> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Md5: vxLTvzASu6WBfcH+fNc94w== > > > >> >> > Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> > just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >> > injector >> > on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >> > that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) >> > (this may lead to more questions ;) ) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Yes! You can do exactly that!. It is generally recommended that you >> disconnect the lead to the existing cold-start valve and, in fact, >> completely remove it and plug up the hole in your manifold and fuel >> rail. I have not accomplished that, yet, but DID disconnect the lead. >> JAH > >Great - that's good to know. As predicted, I have more questions now.... > >Let's say I wasn't quite honest when I said "basically stock". > >Let's say that I have a Vortech supercharger and that I know that >I'm a little lean in the upper rpm range where it's starting to >really put out some boost.... (uh oh - detonation!) > >Is there an easy way to use this 9th injector(the cold-start one) >to help keep me out of detonation - mainly as a crutch for >too small factory injectors?? I know I don't want to keep >raising the fuel pressure because the injectors don't last >long under 80+psi right?? So maybe use an rpm activated >switch to trigger this injector at say 3500rpm??? Is this >feasible?? > >thanks again for any insight! > >T. >-- >Terry Hartman voice:(972) 519-2920 ,,, >txhartma@spd.dsccc.com (o o) >DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| >Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 13:23:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA27064; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:17:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA27053; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:17:36 -0500 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:17:19 +0100 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA20065; Thu, 16 Jan 97 14:17:14 +0100 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:17:09 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: Walter Kaufmann Subject: hydraulic parts Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi For my EFI-Project I need some parts like - fuel pump - fuel pressure regulator - fuel filter - fuel injector - what I have forget Does anyone have a good source in Europe and some information about the parts? Many thanks Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 14:30:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA27207; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:22:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA27202; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:22:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199701161422.JAA27202@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA165734572; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:22:52 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Creating a pulse for injector drivers To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 9:22:52 EST In-Reply-To: <970115210109_1343941474@emout20.mail.aol.com>; from "FJB203@aol.com" at Jan 15, 97 9:02 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > First off, good choice on a CPU. They are cheap, avail in many, many case > styles, and have eight A/D converters built in (you might learn some > limitations as you folks tinker, but that's okay ). > > > creating the pulse sent to the injector drivers. The trouble is with > > using an output compare to create the pulse. An output compare can be > > Driving a pulse driver can be as simple as an output transister (FET's are > faster than Bipolar of course), however I'm thinking your question is pulse > duration. Check out the EFI332 www page - there is a group of people designing an efi based on the 68332: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > The duration can come from a pre-calculated "map" within your eeprom for each > RPM range (500-1k, 1k-1.5k, etc) and your system then adjusts automatically, > following the engine. Another option is to monitor engine rotation so at > certain points after the injection starts, the injector stops. However this > introduces mechanical items into the mix. > > I'd go with the calculated map approach personally. BTW, what do you need a > compare for on the output? Just curious, because I was under the impression > that an injector is basically a coil that when energized, allows a > predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder based on the internal > bore/valving assembly. > > I am not a fuel injection guru by any means... > > > > The equations for the speed-density method of EFI can be found at: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/grippo/equations.html - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 15:02:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA27257; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:57:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from spbted.gtri.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA27252; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:56:57 -0500 Received: from comrads2.gtri.gatech.edu ( [130.207.198.218] ) by spbted.gtri.gatech.edu (Hethmon Brothers Smtpd) ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:59:41 EST5EDT Received: by comrads2.gtri.gatech.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0394.03979480@comrads2.gtri.gatech.edu>; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC0394.03979480@comrads2.gtri.gatech.edu> From: Tim Drury To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: Re: Funny Honda CBR600F1 Ignition pickoff Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:59:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > The ignition pickoff on the Honda CBR600 has 9 teeth, then a gap of >about 120 degrees. Anybody know why they did this? I'm trying to use >the same pickup (splice the wire) to synchronize (hopefully in a seq. >port FI) the injection to the intake valve openings. Any tips? The missing tooth is used to determine absolute engine position. We measured what this is but I can't remember. My ignition system is based on the CBR600 F1 engine; refer to http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe/ddis.html. > Does anyone here know how the spark unit works? Thanks! The box has 2 large chips (probably ASICs) which control all the timing and logic. Then it has a couple wimpy transistors for switching the coil current on and off. We thought we could get much better spark energy by putting a couple high current darlington-pairs in there instead. We don't really know if we succeeded because we didn't really know how to measure spark energy. I do know that one guy (pretty crazy) put a screwdriver in the spark plug boot and wanted to see how far the spark would jump to the ignition block. The stock Honda ignition had to be held real close (less than an inch). My ignition jumped about 8 inches and knocked the guy back a couple feet. Take this very scientific data however you want. Personally, I think the system was a little too strong; we would burn up coils at an alarming rate. -tim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 15:18:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27338; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:14:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27327; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:05 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA00811 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA06036 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970116100846.19af0564@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Funny Honda CBR600F1 Ignition pickoff Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 11:05 AM 1/15/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Have a question: > > The ignition pickoff on the Honda CBR600 has 9 teeth, then a gap of >about 120 degrees. Anybody know why they did this? I'm trying to use >the same pickup (splice the wire) to synchronize (hopefully in a seq. >port FI) the injection to the intake valve openings. Any tips? > > Does anyone here know how the spark unit works? Thanks! > > 'Circuit Cellar' did a 3 part article about a year ago on some FSAE team (rpi?) that did EFI on a FZR600. They explained the timing wheel. The yamaha also has several teeth and then a long gap. They explain how the ignition works, so I wont go into it here. A lot of the article is 'software oriented' explaining how they did the control sequencing, but there is enough 'how the engine/hardware' works to make the articles usefull (Hey, It got me interested in EFI). SMD (Notice I also own a FiZeR;) -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 15:18:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27339; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:14:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27332; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:06 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA00821 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA13349 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970116100848.19af7228@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: hydraulic parts Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:17 PM 1/16/97 +0100, you wrote: >For my EFI-Project I need some parts like > >- fuel pump >- fuel pressure regulator >- fuel filter >- fuel injector >- what I have forget ... I also am not sure where to find a high pressure pump/regulator here in the states. Places like Summit sell lots of 7-15psi pumps/regulators for carbs, but the pump they sell for EFI is $200+ (which is ok w/ me, if thats a reasonable price for a good pump but I have nothing else to compare it to). SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 15:33:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA27376; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:27:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from www.coffs.net.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA27371; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:27:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199701161527.KAA27371@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: (No Alias Created)@www.coffs.net.au To: diy_efi Date: 17 Jan 1997 01:29:34 EDT Subject: SMTP import error #-12 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 16:43:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27642; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:38:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27637; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:38:26 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA22454 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:38:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:38:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970116113333_815808443@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Check out the EFI332 www page - there is a group of people designing an efi > based on the 68332: Thanks... I downloaded some of the FTP files before I signed up... looks like a fantastic project, and might help me out in my own project! Thanks agian, FJB From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 16:47:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA27666; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:45:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from sh1.ro.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA27661; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:45:25 -0500 Received: from ts3p14.ro.com (ts3p14.ro.com [205.216.92.76]) by sh1.ro.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA15278 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:45:23 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:45:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199701161645.KAA15278@sh1.ro.com> X-Sender: toy4x4@ro.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jack Alford Subject: Re: hydraulic parts Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> >>- fuel pump >>- fuel pressure regulator >>- fuel filter >>- fuel injector >>- what I have forget >... > >I also am not sure where to find a high pressure pump/regulator here in the >states. Places like Summit sell lots of 7-15psi pumps/regulators for carbs, >but the pump they sell for EFI is $200+ (which is ok w/ me, if thats a >reasonable price for a good pump but I have nothing else to compare it to). WHy not use a fuel pump from a older fuel injected thunderbird, it's much cheaper, as comparedt to most factory fuel pumps, this one is externally mounted on a frame rail. I *think* it does about 17psi, not enough for TPI but a much cheaper solution for TBI ... - jack From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 17:08:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27701; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:04:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27696; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:04:00 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va19-25.ix.netcom.com [205.184.183.57]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11497 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:03:17 -0800 Message-ID: <32DE5E57.1153@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:59:03 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Temp sensor differences References: <32DAB962.455D@connect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Bill Moffitt wrote: > > I have been on this list for a few weeks now, and hope this > question hasn't been asked before: > > The engine coolant temp sensor and the air intake temp sensor in my > 89 Geo Metro are identical in temp/resistance curves. The only > difference I can see is that the connectors are keyed differently, > and most importantly, the coolant temp cost about twice as much! > > I thought I had read somewhere that there may be a difference > in performance between water and air temp sensors in EFI systems, > whereby one was "quicker" than the other. > > Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated. > > Bill I doubt if sensor response is critical in either application because under most typical circumstances, neither coolant nor air temp change rapidly. Best Regards,Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 17:12:40 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27727; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:11:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27722; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:11:06 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va19-25.ix.netcom.com [205.184.183.57]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA12025 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:11:04 -0800 Message-ID: <32DE6030.577@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:06:56 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: When to go into Closed-Loop? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thor Johnson wrote: > > Ok... I have the Oxy sensors biased to ground (I figure I won't need that low > reading) with a 1M resistor. I was planning on going into closed loop as > soon as I get >0.2V on the sensor.... any comments? > > How do the "big boys" know when to go into closed loop? > > Thor Johnson There is no rule set in stone for determining when to go to closed loop. Most do it based on engine run time and coolant temp. at start-up (the warmer the engine at start-up, the less they wait). However, this is not necessarily the best strategy (but its sufficient for their emissions controls). Another strategy I have seen counts number of engine revolutions instead of time, so if you start the engine and operate it at high RPM, the system would go to closed loop faster than if you were just idling. Yet others use calculated average mass air flow, and I think that's probably the most accurate method. Remeber that going to closed loop does not necessarily mean better emissions if the catalyst is not up to temperature. Also, almost all the systems I have seen have a simple diagnostic check that if the sensor voltage is too low or too high, they ignore the reading and stay in open loop. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 17:57:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA27780; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:52:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA27775; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:52:35 -0500 Received: from ven-ca3-12.ix.netcom.com (ven-ca3-12.ix.netcom.com [207.92.176.76]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24491 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:52:33 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:52:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199701161752.JAA24491@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Temp sensor differences Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I find the GM air temp sensors to lag behind actual temps in turbo applications. The diode looking sensor Mazda uses (I assume it's a Bosch type) seem to react much faster.(far less mass than the GM thermister) Fred >I doubt if sensor response is critical in either application because >under most typical circumstances, neither coolant nor air temp change >rapidly. > >Best Regards,Mazda > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 20:28:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA27977; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:23:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA27972; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:23:23 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id AOBGAPEA ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:22:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:22:14 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: hydraulic parts To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jack, Carter, has a high volume pump after market check JEGS. If you have a intank GM pump I suggest that you get a A/C brand replacement I saw an article about Street Preformance in Mena AK it gave the part no. Beware of NAPA and other brands. The last thing you want is to experience the pain of in tank replacement and have insufficient pressure. Note: pay attention to the volume out put of the pump the psi rating is only a cut off rating. Pumps do not make pressure, only volume, Pressure is a function of flow/volume. Ray. J. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 20:56:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28182; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:54:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from pacific.telebyte.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA28177; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:54:52 -0500 Received: (from cdenzler@localhost) by pacific.telebyte.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA21741 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:48:06 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:48:06 -0800 From: Chris Denzler Message-Id: <199701162048.MAA21741@pacific.telebyte.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for the advice to all those who offered it. dave said: > "hardware" method... definetly learn some code. Number ONE step is to > find the checksum.. the program wont run or allow you to use a scan tool > if you change bytes without addressing the checksum issue. The only system I've ever explored previously was the older (pre-93) Weber Marelli ECU, as used on Ducati and Moto Guzzi motorcycles and (I've heard) Alfo Romeo 6 cylinder cars. There wasn't any checksum problem at all, you could whack in any changes to the EPROM at will. Is the Motronic checksum just a loop that adds all the EPROM bytes together and compares that value to the checksum value? (don't answer if that is sensitive information, I'm merely curious and not working on a Motronic system) - Chris From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 20:56:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28172; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:53:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA28167; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:53:11 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id AODDCNCB ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:52:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:51:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Marc: Electromotive as a company is very difficult. They are rude, condesending, likely to tell you anything to get you to buy, and treat your like a "redheaded stepchild" after. If they made a EFI that ran on salt water the cost in heartburn to deal with them would drive the systems value lower than the salt water it required to run. Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 20:58:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA28206; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:58:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA28201; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:58:13 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id AODICBEF ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:57:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:56:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: I got my TPI but it's missing a few parts... To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dan, I have a spare TPS, GM type, adjustabe and new. You are welcome to it. Ray, From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 21:12:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28246; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:10:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28241; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:10:50 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id APAJBHCP ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:09:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:09:22 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: hydraulic parts To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Walter: Try talking with Larry Bershtein, he is well versed in Euro buggies, and has a lot of experience with EFI. Reach him at Ibershte@polaris.umuc.edu or larryb208@aol.com Phone: 301-365-8113. Larry should be able to help. Ray. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 21:12:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28236; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:08:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28231; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:08:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199701162108.QAA28231@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA186188896; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:08:16 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:08:16 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "rambo@diversicomm.com" at Jan 16, 97 2:51 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Marc: > > Electromotive as a company is very difficult. > > They are rude, condesending, likely to tell you anything to > get you to buy, and treat your like a "redheaded stepchild" after. > > If they made a EFI that ran on salt water the cost in heartburn to deal > with them would drive the systems value lower than the salt water it > required to run. > > Ray > Amen - Bruce From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 21:33:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28325; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:25:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28320; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:25:14 -0500 Received: from usc.slc-usconnect.com (usc.xmission.com [204.228.138.1]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id OAA13821 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:25:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701162125.OAA13821@mail.xmission.com> Received: from landshark.slc-usconnect.com by usc.slc-usconnect.com via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 16 Jan 1997 21:25:10 UT X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:25:44 -0700 To: diy_efi From: Land Shark Subject: Re: Motronic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:48 PM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote: >The only system I've ever explored previously was the older (pre-93) Weber >Marelli ECU, as used on Ducati and Moto Guzzi motorcycles and (I've heard) >Alfo Romeo 6 cylinder cars. There wasn't any checksum problem at all, you >could whack in any changes to the EPROM at will. Older Motronic systems (pre 1987ish, pre DME M1.x) have no checksums whatsoever.. those are (example) on the E30 BMW M3, E28 535i, etc.. Everything after 1987 (in the BMW world) has a checksum... >Is the Motronic checksum >just a loop that adds all the EPROM bytes together and compares that value >to the checksum value? (don't answer if that is sensitive information, I'm >merely curious and not working on a Motronic system) Actually it can be ONE checksum or MULTIPLE checksums The Bosch Transmission computers (AEGS) use MULTIPLE INTERLEAVED checksums! Jim From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 21:40:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28357; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:36:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28352; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:36:34 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id APCCDDBH ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:35:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:34:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Valve Train noise To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings: I am the most recient victom/customer of Electromotive. I purchased a TPI and mounted it on a HO 5.7 L Chevy ZZ3 crate engine. The unit came with 31 lbs/hr injectors. The first Tec II they sent me was defective and quit at operating temp. after a couple of weeks of torture I was able to get Electro. to send me a replacement that was not new but did work. In the mean time their Tech.'s were sure that the 32psi I had with the intank fuel pump was cause of my trouble. I, being new to EFI, did not see how fuel pressure could cause this but nontheless installed the inline pump that came with the unit. Now we have over 100psi. the Holley type vacume operated fuel pressure regulator keeps it level at 47psi. I have narrowed the pulse sqrt. time much as I can and keep the fuel/air balanced at idel. However, each time the engine experiences load conditions I hear valve noise. The kind of noise I most commonly would associate with poor fuel. 110 octane and valve adjustment has helped but, not as much as narrowing squt. Still I have valve train noise. Any Ideas on how to solve this prolem short of canning the system and bolting on a one barrel, magneto, and adding a timing stick to the steering colum? Ray. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 22:01:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA28396; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:56:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA28391; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:56:43 -0500 Received: from jdr (dial007h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.72]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id NAA00682 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:56:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32DEA4B6.2D2F@net-quest.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:59:19 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Motronic References: <199701162048.MAA21741@pacific.telebyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Chris Denzler wrote: > > Thanks for the advice to all those who offered it. > > dave said: > > > "hardware" method... definetly learn some code. Number ONE step is to > > find the checksum.. the program wont run or allow you to use a scan tool > > if you change bytes without addressing the checksum issue. > > The only system I've ever explored previously was the older (pre-93) Weber > Marelli ECU, as used on Ducati and Moto Guzzi motorcycles and (I've heard) > Alfo Romeo 6 cylinder cars. There wasn't any checksum problem at all, you > could whack in any changes to the EPROM at will. Is the Motronic checksum > just a loop that adds all the EPROM bytes together and compares that value > to the checksum value? (don't answer if that is sensitive information, I'm > merely curious and not working on a Motronic system) > > - Chris Chris, Not quite all the bytes, but you've got the general Idea. If they added up all the bytes then put in the check sum, the check sum would change, so they've got to put the check sum outside the area they're working with. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 23:23:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA28548; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:14:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from upsmot01.msn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA28543; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:14:14 -0500 Received: from upmajb06 ([204.95.110.89]) by upsmot01.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id PAA26540 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:14:20 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 22:54:26 UT From: "Orin Harding" Message-Id: To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Electromotive TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I concur completely with Ray's remarks. ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of rambo@diversicomm.com Sent: Thursday, January 16, 1997 2:51 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI Marc: Electromotive as a company is very difficult. They are rude, condesending, likely to tell you anything to get you to buy, and treat your like a "redheaded stepchild" after. If they made a EFI that ran on salt water the cost in heartburn to deal with them would drive the systems value lower than the salt water it required to run. Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 23:40:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA28581; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:32:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA28576; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:32:39 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va20-12.ix.netcom.com [205.184.183.76]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04865 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:32:18 -0800 Message-ID: <32DEB979.3710@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:27:53 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi rambo@diversicomm.com wrote: > > Marc: > > Electromotive as a company is very difficult. > > They are rude, condesending, likely to tell you anything to > get you to buy, and treat your like a "redheaded stepchild" after. > > If they made a EFI that ran on salt water the cost in heartburn to deal > with them would drive the systems value lower than the salt water it > required to run. > > Ray I had a similar experience with them about seven years ago. Every problem was related to the vehicle according to them. The system would not read RPM consistantly at cranking speed and they insisted the crank pick-up wheel (supplied by them) was out of round. After machining it myself the first time, I took it to the physics department machine shop, where they rounded it to .0001 (yes that's the right number of zeros) and the system still did not work. Finally I towed the whole damn truck to their shop and showed them. They had to make some modifications to the box to make it work. What made it worse was that their attitude sucked (excuse the language). From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 16 23:46:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA28591; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:37:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA28586; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:37:39 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va20-12.ix.netcom.com [205.184.183.76]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA05239 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:37:37 -0800 Message-ID: <32DEBACA.2038@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:33:30 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Valve Train noise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi rambo@diversicomm.com wrote: > > Greetings: > > I am the most recient victom/customer of Electromotive. I > purchased a TPI > and mounted it on a HO 5.7 L Chevy ZZ3 crate engine. The unit came with > 31 lbs/hr injectors. The first Tec II they sent me was defective and > quit at > operating temp. after a couple of weeks of torture I was able to get > Electro. > to send me a replacement that was not new but did work. In the mean > time > their Tech.'s were sure that the 32psi I had with the intank fuel pump > was > cause of my trouble. I, being new to EFI, did not see how fuel > pressure could > cause this but nontheless installed the inline pump that came with the > unit. > > Now we have over 100psi. the Holley type vacume operated fuel > pressure > regulator keeps it level at 47psi. I have narrowed the pulse sqrt. > time much as > I can and keep the fuel/air balanced at idel. However, each time the > engine > experiences load conditions I hear valve noise. The kind of noise I > most > commonly would associate with poor fuel. 110 octane and valve > adjustment > has helped but, not as much as narrowing squt. Still I have valve > train noise. > > Any Ideas on how to solve this prolem short of canning the system and > bolting on a one barrel, magneto, and adding a timing stick to the > steering colum? > > Ray. Hi Ray, Here is a couple of questions / comments: 1) Have you calculated the size of your injectors? 2) Have you verified the pulse width, RPM, and spark timing shown on the TEC screen are actually true? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 01:25:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28743; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:12:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28738; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:12:24 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial143.voyager.net [207.74.103.143]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id UAA14308 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:11:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32DF0D25.1C9F@voyager.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:24:53 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: I got my TPI but it's missing a few parts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Never mind the previous post on my TPI with missing parts. I'm returning the unit. I found that the regulator body (available from only GM) was going to cost me $200.00 and the TPS and IAC a combined $100.00, so I would have had a total of $500.00 in a junkyard TPI. Without a computer or harness no less. I guess my "good deal" on the $200.00 TPI system wasn't so good. I'm holding onto the system until Tuesday if anyone wants it. Here's it's description: Intake from a '85-'86 model V8 Plenum from 1987 Fuel rail from 1988 5.7L engine (minus regulator and rear crossover tube assembly) Throttle body from 1986, minus TPS and IAC Help me with the injectors if you can: They are part # 5235302 The rail is part # 17088065 The plenum is 14089006, stamped '87 3 0 The throttle body is P/N 17086051, stamped '86 Manifold is 10066013, no visible date. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 01:25:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28751; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:14:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28746; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:14:21 -0500 Received: from van-as-05b08.direct.ca (van-as-05b08.direct.ca [204.174.249.24]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA23153 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:14:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701170114.RAA23153@aphex.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:59:10 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: RE: When to go into Closed-Loop? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Guys To guote a Gm Advanced Fuel Injection training manuel you enter closed loop on the following conditions: Ctc above 159 degrees O2 voltage swings more than 200 mV from the setpoint of 450 mV. The 02 sensor is biased to 450 mV through a 10M resistor. More than 70 seconds have elapsed in the engine run timer. Also there is one form of open loop the power enrich mode which is entered during hot closed loop when tps exceeds a certain percentage at different rpm breakpoints. The F/A is then run off PE open loop enrichment. Have fun: peter Ps manuel was available from delco electronics. I don't know if you can still get it. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 01:48:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28795; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:41:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28790; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:41:09 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA02194; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:38:53 -0600 Message-ID: <32DEF5F4.7E19@connect.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:45:56 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Temp sensor differences References: <199701161752.JAA24491@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Fred Miranda wrote: > > I find the GM air temp sensors to lag behind actual temps in turbo applications. > The diode looking sensor Mazda uses (I assume it's a Bosch type) seem to > react much faster.(far less mass than the GM thermister) > > Fred > > Do you know what the Mazda part number is and how much it costs? Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 02:05:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA28821; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:58:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA28816; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:58:23 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id BDDIBKEE ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:56:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:56:26 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Valve Train noise To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mazda: I have used Bowling's injector sizing to caculate the size of injectors needed. Unfortunately I did not know of Mr. Bowling before I purchased a TPI system. Using his formulas across the operating RPM range of this engine the injector size should be at least 15 lbs/hr and most 16 lbs/hr. I regret, I do not have the ability to verify the readings of the TEC II, as they are displayed on my laptop screen. Can you suggest how this may be done? Thank you for your time and attention. Kindest regards, Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 02:47:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA29008; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 02:37:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA29003; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:37:16 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va17-10.ix.netcom.com [204.32.176.170]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA25412 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:37:13 -0800 Message-ID: <32DEE4E1.78AD@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:33:05 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Valve Train noise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi rambo@diversicomm.com wrote: > > Mazda: > > I have used Bowling's injector sizing to caculate the size of > injectors needed. Unfortunately I did not know of Mr. Bowling before I > purchased a TPI system. Using his formulas across the operating RPM > range of this engine the > injector size should be at least 15 lbs/hr and most 16 lbs/hr. > > I regret, I do not have the ability to verify the readings of the > TEC II, as they are displayed on my laptop screen. Can you suggest how > this may be done? > > Thank you for your time and attention. > > Kindest regards, Ray A scope would be nice, but at least check the timing with a timing light. Years ago, when I used electromotive for a few months, I learned to trust nothing. The reason I asked about the RPM reading, was not only because of my experience with not being able to read RPM at cranking speeds, but also an article I read somewhere about the VECTOR. The test driver noticed the rev-limiter was cutting in way before red line, and the problem was traced to the engine management system. Guess what system they used? TEC! It sounds like your injectors are way oversized for the application. Do you know if they run sequential, bank fire, or gang fire? Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 02:52:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA29066; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 02:42:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA29061; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:42:17 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA22926 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:42:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:42:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970116205648_72285253@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: I got my TPI but it's missing a few parts... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Never mind the previous post on my TPI with missing parts. I'm > returning the unit. I found that the regulator body (available from > only GM) was going to cost me $200.00 and the TPS and IAC a combined > $100.00, so I would have had a total of $500.00 in a junkyard TPI. > Without a computer or harness no less. Not to rub it in, for I'm not... so please don't take it this way . For a vehicle I'm building from scratch, I "aquired" a complete, somewhat running but tired 3800cc 1991 Buick from the local junkyard, which I had towed to my home. I stripped off EVERYTHING that had a wire on it, mostly because I'm going to re-use the GM harness in my own vehicle, but by taking the harness and ECM as well as the engine, I'll have a running combination when I'm done. From there, hopefully you can modify and build upon a working platform. I'm in the Tri-State area (NY,NJ,CT) which from talking with other folks on the internet, seem to have a much higher percentage of junked but running newer vehicles. I paid $600 for the car, and am getting some back when they tow it outta here, since I did a lot of labor to remove the doors, fenders, hood, trunk lid, etc, stuff they can resell, now without labor to remove it. And I got what I wanted... FWD powertrain, SPI fuel injection, and every wire imaginable. Even took the trunk lights . BTW, if you are going GM as far as powertrain, most of the larger GM vehicles (I ended up with a Lesabre, or a Regal, I'm still trying to figure that out), have the ECM mounted behind the glove box on the firewall, and have a HUGE pile of wires going through the firewall right to the engine. You can pretty much take those connectors through the firewall, and pull the engine with that set of wires, and have a working system (take the computer too). The rest of the harness controls the heaters, and a lot of other junk, but those "other junk" wires go through a seperate hole in the firewall. Best of luck, Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 03:14:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA29120; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:02:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA29115; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:02:23 -0500 Received: from ven-ca1-11.ix.netcom.com (ven-ca1-11.ix.netcom.com [205.186.74.43]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08921 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:02:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:02:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199701170302.TAA08921@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Temp sensor differences Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry, no. But I suspect the same basic sensor is common to many Jap engines. At 07:45 PM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote: >Fred Miranda wrote: >> >> I find the GM air temp sensors to lag behind actual temps in turbo applications. >> The diode looking sensor Mazda uses (I assume it's a Bosch type) seem to >> react much faster.(far less mass than the GM thermister) >> >> Fred >> >> Do you know what the Mazda part number is and how much it costs? > >Bill > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 03:20:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA29140; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:13:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA29135; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:13:39 -0500 Received: from ven-ca1-04.ix.netcom.com (ven-ca1-04.ix.netcom.com [205.186.74.36]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA09956 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:13:37 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:13:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199701170313.TAA09956@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Don't see a problem here, should be able to tune it to work with the 32# units. I've tuned many of these.(no help from the mfgr) Email me if you'd like some help. (off list) Fred At 07:56 PM 1/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Mazda: > > I have used Bowling's injector sizing to caculate the size of >injectors needed. Unfortunately I did not know of Mr. Bowling before I >purchased a TPI system. Using his formulas across the operating RPM >range of this engine the >injector size should be at least 15 lbs/hr and most 16 lbs/hr. > > I regret, I do not have the ability to verify the readings of the >TEC II, as they are displayed on my laptop screen. Can you suggest how >this may be done? > >Thank you for your time and attention. > >Kindest regards, Ray > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 06:27:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA29551; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 06:17:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis.iul-ccs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA29545; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:17:41 -0500 Received: from pme1-11.iul-ccs.com (pme1-11.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.44]) by atlantis.iul-ccs.com (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA26288 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:15:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:15:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701170615.XAA26288@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: RE: Creating a pulse for injector drivers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi S. Lastuka wrote: > >>An output compare can be > >>used to turn off a pulse after a certain time, but how to you turn the > >>pulse on in the first place? Please help. Use an interrupt service routine to run the injectors, triggered off either a hardware input (crank posn or ignition signal) or just asynchronously off the RTC interrupt. First thing to do in the ISR is read the timer counter register. Then set the injector driver output "on". Add the required time (value from pulse width fuel map) to the TCR, and store it at the OCR for the timer that you are using, then enable it's output compare interrupt. Set up the OCR interrupt routine to turn the injector output off, and then disable itself, so it won't trigger again until the next hardware interrupt (this is called a self extinguishing timer interrupt). You can use the relevant timer OC output pin for the injector control, or just use any other port bit with a BSET and BCLR instruction. Main code routine does all the calculations, measurements, and housekeeping functions at full processor speed, and calculates a vector into the fuel map based on inputs. It only gets interrupted occasionally to service the injectors. If you're using the synchronous (hardware triggered) method, you could also add an additional timer in the chain in the same manner to delay the injector on routine for some time after the hardware trigger. In this manner you can time the injector opening to any point during an engine cycle. regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 10:46:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA00083; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:42:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA00078; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:41:54 -0500 Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA04822 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:41:50 +0100 Received: from erosseel by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA24921; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:41:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199701171041.LAA24921@allserv.rug.ac.be> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Evert Rosseel" Organization: University Gent To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:59:56 +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: When to go into Closed-Loop? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > How do the "big boys" know when to go into closed loop? > > There is no rule set in stone for determining when to go to closed loop. > Most do it based on engine run time and coolant temp. at start-up (the > warmer the engine at start-up, the less they wait). However, this is > not necessarily the best strategy (but its sufficient for their > emissions controls). Another strategy I have seen counts number of > engine revolutions instead of time, so if you start the engine and > operate it at high RPM, the system would go to closed loop faster than > if you were just idling. Yet others use calculated average mass air > flow, and I think that's probably the most accurate method. Remeber > that going to closed loop does not necessarily mean better emissions if > the catalyst is not up to temperature. > > Also, almost all the systems I have seen have a simple diagnostic check > that if the sensor voltage is too low or too high, they ignore the > reading and stay in open loop. > > Best Regards, Mazda > Basically you need 3 conditions to be able to go to closed loop : 1 The engine should be warmed up somewhat, so that no enrichment is necessary to get a combustible mixture. This depends on the coolant temperature (easily measured) and also (to much less extent) on the air temperature. 2 The catalyst should be warmed up sufficiently, otherwise no benefits are obtained by going to closed loop. As far as I know, no catalysts with temperature sensors built in exist, although this seems the most logical solution. In the most modern systems with both a lambda sensor before and after the catalyst (for on board diagnostics OBD, in which case the correct functioning of the catalyst during use must be monitored (legal requirement)), it should be possible to measure when the catalyst lights off, but I have not seen any implementations of this yet. 3 The lambda sensor should be warmed up sufficiently. This can be (and often is) solved by using electrically heated sensors. Especially 1 and 2 depend strongly on the ambient temperature. In some cases engine warm up is limiting, in other cases the catalyst light off. This also depends on the engine (distance between engine and catalyst, special measures taken like retarded ignition to get higher exhaust gas temperatures etc.). Although in practice good results can be achieved, this is not always the case. Since emission limits are only legally enforced measured for one test condition, even the simplest of systems is good enough. (This is changing however : "cold" tests will become necessary in the near future). For driveability, closed loop operation is not essential. In fact, running slightly rich helps to get good response. Therefore, without test equipment and tests with different "ambient" temperatures, it is not possible to know how good the products from different manufacturers are. Evert **************************************************************** * Dr. ir. Evert Rosseel * * Laboratory for Machines * * Department of Mechanical and Thermal Engineering * * University Gent * * Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 41, 9000 Gent, Belgium * * Tel : ++32 9 264.33.06 * * Fax : ++32 9 264.35.86 * * Email : Evert.Rosseel@rug.ac.be * * WWW : http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~erosseel/motoren.htm * **************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 13:52:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA00284; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:30:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns2.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA00279; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:30:22 -0500 Received: from nnsp.eds.com (nnsp.eds.com [130.174.32.78]) by ns2.eds.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA09235 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kotsv1.delcoelect.com (koedvx02.delcoelect.com [144.250.32.3]) by nnsp.eds.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA32182 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from kodeln12.delcoelect.com by kotsv1.delcoelect.com (PMDF V5.1-4 #8480) with SMTP id <01IEBA60E0GW000UIV@kotsv1.delcoelect.com> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:27:03 EST Received: by kodeln12.delcoelect.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05b4 (287.3 12-16-1996)) id 05256422.00498AF4 ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:23:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:22:09 -0500 From: Jeffrey R Muehl Subject: RE: More TPI questions To: diy_efi Message-id: <05256420.005BD4C7.00@kodeln12.delcoelect.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: DELCO Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ok, here we go... >What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. >> >> Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system >> and >> was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty >> consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same >> system) It was stated that the 85 -vs- 89 differences were "numerous". Were these differences just in the ECM or were sensors, TB, etc changed? I want to convert an 85 system to the 89 ECM. What's involved? If it's just a harness conversion, I'm not worried. >Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I >just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >injector >on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) Any help would be greatly appreciated! Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 16:07:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA00713; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:55:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA00708; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:55:06 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA05303; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:54:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma005285; Fri, 17 Jan 97 09:54:06 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC045C.B09CF530@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:56:20 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Jeffrey R Muehl'" Subject: RE: More TPI questions Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:56:22 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Many of the tuners don't really recognize the existence of the '85. The major difference is the use of a different ECU and harness and the addition of VATS with the '86 model year (from the '86-89). There are other changes; but, these one significant in that the ALDL data rate is 160 bpS rather than the 8192 of the later ECUs. This may sound insignificant until you try to take real-time readings of the engine parameters for performance mapping purposes. ---------- From: Jeffrey R Muehl[SMTP:JRMUEHL@mail.delcoelect.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 7:22 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: More TPI questions Many of the aftermarket people don't even treat the '85 as a TPI in their discussions. To start with, it uses a computer (ECU) unique to the model year. Trying to get information on that particular computer/assembly are largely fruitless. From what I understand (and I am not certain that I understand everything I know about the subject), you start with a different ECU, no pre-cats, VATS added in '86, and different ALDL data rate. There may (probably are) more changes; but, this is all I have heard about. Ok, here we go... >What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. >> >> Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system >> and >> was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty >> consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same >> system) It was stated that the 85 -vs- 89 differences were "numerous". Were these differences just in the ECM or were sensors, TB, etc changed? I want to convert an 85 system to the 89 ECM. What's involved? If it's just a harness conversion, I'm not worried. >Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I >just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >injector >on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) Any help would be greatly appreciated! Jeff From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 16:23:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00749; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:13:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferryman.kemet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00744; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:13:42 -0500 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com by ferryman.kemet.com (SMI-8.6/Kemet Electronics Corporation) id LAA26400; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:29:45 -0500 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9a for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1997Jan17.100935.1724.181949; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:13:09 -0500 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi Message-ID: <1997Jan17.100935.1724.181949@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:13:09 -0500 Subject: No Subject Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 16:27:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA00764; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:22:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA00759; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:22:14 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id AKBECDAD ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Valve Train noise To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mazda: The injectors are firing phased sequential according to the manuel supplied with the unit. I take this to mean that they fire at each TDC for each 360 degrees. Thus preloading the intake. I tried changing to (Batch) mode simultaneous, which is supposed to fire the injectors 4 time per rev. but it made no difference in the engine, except a noticable pulsing of the flex fuel hose, connecting the rail to the regulator. I have come to realize that the only way I will cure all the problems in this unit is to send it back and regain my investment. What if any system would you suggest I use to replace it? I still have the TBI ECU and harness for the 1988 GMC 5.7 L. I do not wish to return to carbs. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 18:10:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA00926; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:05:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA00921; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:05:29 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03400; Fri, 17 Jan 97 10:09:43 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17969; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:02:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970117120259.006b89d8@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:03:01 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: RE: More TPI questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:56 AM 1/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >Many of the tuners don't really recognize the existence of the '85. > The major difference is the use of a different ECU and harness and >the addition of VATS with the '86 model year (from the '86-89). There >are other changes; but, these one significant in that the ALDL data >rate is 160 bpS rather than the 8192 of the later ECUs. This may >sound insignificant until you try to take real-time readings of the >engine parameters for performance mapping purposes. > Sorry to jump in late with questions... I've been following this thread of 85 vs 86-89, and I was wondering if you guys are talking about a particular motor or GM v8s in general. I think the vette was the only car that had VATS that long ago, so are you talking about the vette motor (L98) specifically? TPI motors in general? TBI motors also? --steve > > >---------- >From: Jeffrey R Muehl[SMTP:JRMUEHL@mail.delcoelect.com] >Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 7:22 AM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: RE: More TPI questions > > > > > > > > > >Many of the aftermarket people don't even treat the '85 as a TPI in >their discussions. To start with, it uses a computer (ECU) unique to >the model year. Trying to get information on that particular >computer/assembly are largely fruitless. From what I understand (and >I am not certain that I understand everything I know about the >subject), you start with a different ECU, no pre-cats, VATS added in >'86, and different ALDL data rate. There may (probably are) more >changes; but, this is all I have heard about. > >Ok, here we go... > >>What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. >>> >>> Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system >>> and >>> was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty >>> consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same >>> system) > >It was stated that the 85 -vs- 89 differences were "numerous". >Were these differences just in the ECM or were sensors, TB, etc >changed? >I want to convert an 85 system to the 89 ECM. What's involved? >If it's just a harness conversion, I'm not worried. > >>Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I >>just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >>injector >>on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >>that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) > >Any help would be greatly appreciated! > >Jeff > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 18:52:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA01021; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:47:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01016; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:47:56 -0500 Received: from wmoffitt.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA04079; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:45:40 -0600 Message-ID: <32DFC9C4.2ABC@connect.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:49:40 -0600 From: Bill Moffitt Organization: Triad Spectrum, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Efi332 schematics on FTP site References: <199701171041.LAA24921@allserv.rug.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Has anyone had any success reading in the postscript files of the efi332 schematics? I have tried both ClarisWorks 3.0 and Micrografx Designer 1.0 and each errors on reading the file. I looked at the files with just a text editor and it looks like the file was saved using a font that is not on my system. Could this be the problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bill Moffitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 18:54:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA01042; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:52:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01037; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:52:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d49.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.241]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18907 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:52:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:52:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701171852.MAA18907@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You may not like what I'm about to say. In my opinion you should junk the Electromotive ECM. Buy an GM MAF type ECM ($100.00) and prom ($50.00) build or buy an engine harness. You will then have a system that is well proven (over 1,000,000 units)and supported. Unless you are using after market ram tubes, plenum, and base, your best performance will come with the stock components. All of the stock TPI components are designed to work together. When you buy into the "bigger ram tubes - more flow" thinking, remember that if 50 extra horses could be added by only using a larger what ever, GM would have done it. The cost to cast a bigger throttle bodie, ram tubes, or what ever is probably pennies. GM spent millions developing TPI and it works. The MAF will, of course, help you if you have a warm cam. Don't feel bad. After market parts can confuse even the most seasoned hot rodder. Some of the venders are liscened and bonded LIERS. Oh, it's not a total loss though, I've heard that the Electromotive ECMs make excellent and attractive door stops or paper weights:} Good luck GMD At 03:34 PM 1/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings: > > I am the most recient victom/customer of Electromotive. I >purchased a TPI ...cut out the long face and sad songs... >I can and keep the fuel/air balanced at idel. However, each time the >engine >experiences load conditions I hear valve noise. The kind of noise I >most >commonly would associate with poor fuel. 110 octane and valve >adjustment >has helped but, not as much as narrowing squt. Still I have valve >train noise. > >Any Ideas on how to solve this prolem short of canning the system and >bolting on a one barrel, magneto, and adding a timing stick to the >steering colum? > >Ray. > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 19:35:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01121; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:32:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from VAXE.GAT.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA01116; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:32:12 -0500 Received: from pc1161 (141.248.172.179) by GAT.COM (PMDF V5.0-7 #3951) id <01IEBGKRQT4G8Y51PQ@GAT.COM> for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:30:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:30:06 -0800 From: kurt.bilinski@GAT.COM (Kurt Bilinski) Subject: EFI factory connector availability X-Sender: bilink@mail1.sd.gat.com To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <01IEBGKRUTSY8Y51PQ@GAT.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'm not on the list (yet) but have a question. I"m adapting a factory Honda EFI system to be used in my mid-engine Mini Cooper project. I don't have the factory computer wire harness ($1200!) and was told that automobile connectors are available seperately. Being an EE I'm skeptical since these connectors look very propriatary. But, for that price, I would like to know if the connectors are available (they are not from Honda.) Thanks and please respond privatly, Kurt Bilinski From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 19:52:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA01235; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:47:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA01230; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:47:11 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA03159 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:47:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:47:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970117144703_845831432@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Efi332 schematics on FTP site Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I looked at the files with just a text editor and it looks > like the file was saved using a font that is not on my > system. Could this be the problem? I had downloaded them earlier in the week, but tried to view them when I saw your message. I couldn't import them into MS Word, Corel Draw 6.0, and a few other dopey shareware things I have. I'll keep looking around my c:\utilities directory for something... Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:11:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01270; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:05:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01265; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:05:38 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id OAA20992; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:05:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma020979; Fri, 17 Jan 97 14:04:51 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC047F.B99A34E0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:07:08 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Steve Ravet'" Subject: RE: More TPI questions Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:07:09 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Anything I have to say is from my experience with the Corvette engines. Much of it relates to all of the pre '90 TPIs; but, you correctly stated that some may be irrelevant to the Camaro/Firebird. ---------- From: Steve Ravet[SMTP:steve@imes.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 12:03 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: More TPI questions At 09:56 AM 1/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >Many of the tuners don't really recognize the existence of the '85. > The major difference is the use of a different ECU and harness and >the addition of VATS with the '86 model year (from the '86-89). There >are other changes; but, these one significant in that the ALDL data >rate is 160 bpS rather than the 8192 of the later ECUs. This may >sound insignificant until you try to take real-time readings of the >engine parameters for performance mapping purposes. > Sorry to jump in late with questions... I've been following this thread of 85 vs 86-89, and I was wondering if you guys are talking about a particular motor or GM v8s in general. I think the vette was the only car that had VATS that long ago, so are you talking about the vette motor (L98) specifically? TPI motors in general? TBI motors also? --steve > > >---------- >From: Jeffrey R Muehl[SMTP:JRMUEHL@mail.delcoelect.com] >Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 7:22 AM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: RE: More TPI questions > > > > > > > > > >Many of the aftermarket people don't even treat the '85 as a TPI in >their discussions. To start with, it uses a computer (ECU) unique to >the model year. Trying to get information on that particular >computer/assembly are largely fruitless. From what I understand (and >I am not certain that I understand everything I know about the >subject), you start with a different ECU, no pre-cats, VATS added in >'86, and different ALDL data rate. There may (probably are) more >changes; but, this is all I have heard about. > >Ok, here we go... > >>What is the difference between the 85 vs. 89 system. >>> >>> Too numerous to describe. It was the first generation TPI system >>> and >>> was significantly changed for '86. The '86 through 89 is pretty >>> consistent (some mapping and other variances to basically the same >>> system) > >It was stated that the 85 -vs- 89 differences were "numerous". >Were these differences just in the ECM or were sensors, TB, etc >changed? >I want to convert an 85 system to the 89 ECM. What's involved? >If it's just a harness conversion, I'm not worried. > >>Ok - lets say that I have an '87 TPI - basically stock. Can I >>just swap out a PROM for the '89 TPI to eliminate the cold-start >>injector >>on my '87?? IOW, is there a hardware(wire harness) difference >>that would prevent this (other than the cold-start injector wiring) > >Any help would be greatly appreciated! > >Jeff > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:22:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01317; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:16:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01312; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:16:36 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA18231; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:02:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:02:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970117150219_1510357658@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi, Randywal@ix.netcom.com Subject: Tec II O2 sensor Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi History: I had a new header/exhaust system put on my 86 VW GTI Tec II car. The O2 sensor wiring was not long enough to reach new installation point so it was cut for lengthening. The header had some manufacturing discrepancies so I took the car back to the shop where I purchased the header to fix it and finish the installation. Problem: When he was finished with the header fix, the kid they had working on my car decided to complete the O2 sensor installation for me which I appreciated. *HOWEVER* after he soldered the 3 wires back together he failed to remember to individually wrap them. Thus, they were in contact with each other when the car was started and the wires started to fry. This almost started a fire, and probably fried the ignition swich also. (I'm not sure if the O2 sensor will still function. I doubt it. Question: Did this damage the Tec unit in any way or anything else I have not thought of? Thanks for you help. Marc PS: This shop is fairly reputable and has worked well with me in the past so I purposely did not mention their name. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:29:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01353; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:28:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01348; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:27:58 -0500 Received: from TMC2.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU by tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35350; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:31:31 -0500 Received: by tmc2.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27650; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:27:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:27:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" X-Sender: mtk@tmc2.astm.cmri.cmu.edu To: Kurt Bilinski Cc: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: EFI factory connector availability In-Reply-To: <01IEBGKRUTSY8Y51PQ@GAT.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Kurt and/or list members, Please post the answer to the list or send me a copy of the mail reply. I'm trying to trim down the wiring harness on my race bike and being able to attach to the factory connectors would be a big help. Thanks. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@andrew.cmu.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer DoD #1848 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic WERA Provisional Novice #753 From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:51:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01403; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:46:42 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01398; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:46:38 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id OAA23879; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:46:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma023865; Fri, 17 Jan 97 14:45:51 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0485.749A6C10@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:48:09 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'George M. Dailey'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:48:10 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This is what I mean by an instant expert. First of all, the very fact that GM spent those millions dictated that they were obligated to cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air foils, ported plenums, opened up MAF do, in fact, increase horsepower easily measurable on a dyno, 0-60 time, quarter mile, or even the seat of ones pants. I agree that the GM MAF system is the way to go for someone building a street engine. There are numerous tradeoffs between maximum horsepower, maximum torque, and drivability. One thing we must understand in all this is that GM is forced to build an engine that meet CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), emission controls, smooth idle, low to mid-range torque, and easy cruising at (in '86) 55 mph. If the end users concerns lean toward one or more of these criteria, there are aftermarket products that will satisfy their needs. To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. While it is true that the requirements of a particular engine may vary, there are some parts that will increase horsepower and torque, but were not placed on the original engine purely due to economics...Headers, dual exhaust (with dual catalytic converters), high flow air filters, high flow Mass Air Flow sensors, roller lifters, and throttle body air foils are notable among these. Even the calpak can be remapped for improved performances if done so to accomodate a particular engine and driving conditions. These engines (from the factory) are made for mass production. Plainly and simply, they are designed so that the lowest common denominator is met. ---------- From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@tecinfo.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 12:52 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Valve Train noise You may not like what I'm about to say. In my opinion you should junk the Electromotive ECM. Buy an GM MAF type ECM ($100.00) and prom ($50.00) build or buy an engine harness. You will then have a system that is well proven (over 1,000,000 units)and supported. Unless you are using after market ram tubes, plenum, and base, your best performance will come with the stock components. All of the stock TPI components are designed to work together. When you buy into the "bigger ram tubes - more flow" thinking, remember that if 50 extra horses could be added by only using a larger what ever, GM would have done it. The cost to cast a bigger throttle bodie, ram tubes, or what ever is probably pennies. GM spent millions developing TPI and it works. The MAF will, of course, help you if you have a warm cam. Don't feel bad. After market parts can confuse even the most seasoned hot rodder. Some of the venders are liscened and bonded LIERS. Oh, it's not a total loss though, I've heard that the Electromotive ECMs make excellent and attractive door stops or paper weights:} Good luck GMD At 03:34 PM 1/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings: > > I am the most recient victom/customer of Electromotive. I >purchased a TPI ...cut out the long face and sad songs... >I can and keep the fuel/air balanced at idel. However, each time the >engine >experiences load conditions I hear valve noise. The kind of noise I >most >commonly would associate with poor fuel. 110 octane and valve >adjustment >has helped but, not as much as narrowing squt. Still I have valve >train noise. > >Any Ideas on how to solve this prolem short of canning the system and >bolting on a one barrel, magneto, and adding a timing stick to the >steering colum? > >Ray. > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:51:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01396; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:45:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01391; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:45:09 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA20874 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:45:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:45:08 -0500 Message-ID: <970117154437_1691463809@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi cc: Marc2365@aol.com Subject: Electromotive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-16 16:59:55 EST, you write: > Now we have over 100psi. the Holley type vacume operated fuel > pressure regulator keeps it level at 47psi. I have narrowed the pulse sqrt. > time much as I can and keep the fuel/air balanced at idel. However, > each time the engine experiences load conditions I hear valve noise. > The kind of noise I most > commonly would associate with poor fuel. 110 octane and valve > adjustment > has helped but, not as much as narrowing squt. Still I have valve > train noise. > Any Ideas on how to solve this prolem short of canning the system and > bolting on a one barrel, magneto, and adding a timing stick to the > steering colum? > > Ray. Ray, I'm not exactly sure what the noise is you're talking about and don't know if I'm experienced enough to answer your question. I assume you've confirmed proper oiling in the engine, engine temps and have checked the timing on the Tec unit. Let me know... Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 20:53:01 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA01412; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:49:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA01407; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:49:12 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv1-24.ix.netcom.com (mar-wv3-14.ix.netcom.com [206.217.114.78]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA27785 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: <32DFECE2.16D9@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:19:30 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Valve Train noise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi rambo@diversicomm.com wrote: > > Mazda: > > The injectors are firing phased sequential according to the manuel > supplied with the unit. I take this to mean that they fire at each TDC > for each 360 degrees. Thus preloading the intake. I tried changing to > (Batch) mode simultaneous, which is supposed to fire the injectors 4 > time per rev. but it made no difference in the engine, except a > noticable pulsing of the flex fuel hose, connecting the rail to the > regulator. > > I have come to realize that the only way I will cure all the > problems in this unit is to send it back and regain my investment. > > What if any system would you suggest I use to replace it? > I still have the TBI ECU and harness for the 1988 GMC 5.7 L. > I do not wish to return to carbs. I personally don't have a lot of experience with aftermarket systems, but a couple of systems worth checking out are Haltech and Motec. You may want to call Marren Motorsports at 203-732-4565. They specialize in this stuff. I have only bought some injectors from them, but I think they do alot of this stuff. Ask for Tim Marren. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 21:07:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01460; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:02:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns2.eds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01455; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:01:59 -0500 Received: from nnsp.eds.com (nnsp.eds.com [130.174.32.78]) by ns2.eds.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17234 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from kotsv1.delcoelect.com (koedvx02.delcoelect.com [144.250.32.3]) by nnsp.eds.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20822 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from kodeln12.delcoelect.com by kotsv1.delcoelect.com (PMDF V5.1-4 #8480) with SMTP id <01IEBQ2VGV9S000XHX@kotsv1.delcoelect.com> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:02:38 EST Received: by kodeln12.delcoelect.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05b4 (287.3 12-16-1996)) id 05256422.007342F8 ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:58:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:58:50 -0500 From: Jeffrey R Muehl Subject: RE: More TPI questions To: diy_efi Message-id: <05256422.0070B68B.00@kodeln12.delcoelect.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: DELCO Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'm working with an 85' Corvette TPI. I'm still looking for the "magic" hardware answer. Can a stock 85' Corvette TPI be retrofitted with the 86'-89' ECM? In other words, did GM change the TPI unit in any way (besides the ECM and wiring harness) between 85' and '86. Thanks in advance, Jeff >Anything I have to say is from my experience with the Corvette >engines. Much of it relates to all of the pre '90 TPIs; but, you correctly stated that some may be irrelevant to the >Camaro/Firebird. >Many of the tuners don't really recognize the existence of the '85. > The major difference is the use of a different ECU and harness and >the addition of VATS with the '86 model year (from the '86-89). There >are other changes; but, these one significant in that the ALDL data >rate is 160 bpS rather than the 8192 of the later ECUs. This may >sound insignificant until you try to take real-time readings of the >engine parameters for performance mapping >purposes. > >Sorry to jump in late with questions... I've been following this >thread of >85 vs 86-89, and I was wondering if you guys are talking about a >.particular >motor or GM v8s in general. I think the vette was the only car that >had >VATS that long ago, so are you talking about the vette motor (L98) specifically? TPI motors in general? TBI motors >also? > > >Many of the aftermarket people don't even treat the '85 as a TPI in >their discussions. To start with, it uses a computer (ECU) unique to >the model year. Trying to get information on that particular >computer/assembly are largely fruitless. From what I understand (and >I am not certain that I understand everything I know about the >subject), you start with a different ECU, no pre-cats, VATS added in >'86, and different ALDL data rate. There may (probably are) more >changes; but, this is all I have heard about. > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 21:32:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA01517; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:24:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA01512; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:24:11 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id APBGDGEO ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:23:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:22:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: High Dollar Paper Weights To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi GMD: I have concluded that the only way to solve this problem is to return the unit and regain my investment. The suggestion of using the GM MAF sounds good. I have toyed with the idea of using a Holley 670 CFM TBI on one of their new manifolds that will bolt to 86 and prior heads such as I have. The stock ECM was made for a 350 TBI. but not at 9.8:1 compression. The school of hard knocks... Tutition can be high. Thanks for the input. Honest answers are more valuable than comforting answers. Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 23:30:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01827; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:25:00 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01822; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:24:54 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA25024 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:24:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:24:53 -0500 Message-ID: <970117182452_1925527366@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi cc: Marc2365@aol.com Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-16 22:29:01 EST, you write: > > I had a similar experience with them about seven years ago. Every > problem was related to the vehicle according to them. The system would > not read RPM consistantly at cranking speed and they insisted the crank > pick-up wheel (supplied by them) was out of round. After machining it > myself the first time, I took it to the physics department machine shop, > where they rounded it to .0001 (yes that's the right number of zeros) > and the system still did not work. Finally I towed the whole damn truck > to their shop and showed them. They had to make some modifications to > the box to make it work. What made it worse was that their attitude > sucked (excuse the language). I've seen so many negative responses regarding Electromotive, I can't believe they're still in business! Is it because of idiots like me who purchase the product prior investigating it properly (with people like you on this newsgroup)? Marc 86 GTI Tec II From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 17 23:56:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA01869; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:52:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA01864; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:52:51 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA20765 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:52:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:52:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970117185250_781863566@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-17 18:43:36 EST, you write: > I've seen so many negative responses regarding Electromotive, I can't > believe they're still in business! Is it because of idiots like me who > purchase the product prior investigating it properly (with people like you > on this newsgroup)? Well, it depends. The people here in the DIY-EFI forum are probably a small portion of potential EFI customers that Electromotive (or any other vendor for that matter) would have, therefore I can say with confidence that they would do enough business to stay in business. That alone doesn't mean they are a good vendor or not, I'm not arguing that point at all... yet. In a theoretical sense, if you are making decent profit on every sale, and do get, lets say 5% returns, for whatever reason, you still can stay in business. Most retail businesses only accept returns if the goods are in "resaleable" conditions, meaning unscathed in anyway. Then, the boxes are re-taped and resold. Not all, but most retail or mail order businesses work this way. Another thing to keep in mind is level of dissatisfaction. You and I might perceive "lack of customer service" to be different things. I, being an arrogant know it all, probably would have less patience for anything funky going on. On the other hand, I have a very close friend that waited nearly six months for a two week delivery on a specific U-Joint for his Blazer. He felt slighted, but not enough to get upset over it. Me on the other hand, would have driven the Blazer through the storefront's plate glass window to get their attention. So what I'm saying here is definately hear what others are saying about a particular vendor, good and bad, and make your own decision. Even vendors screw up from time to time, and as much as they don't want to, they will continue to screw up on occasion. It happens. Part of life. What makes a vendor better than another is their willingness to admit the mistake, and take quick action to rectify it to the customer's satisfaction. This is at least my view on the subject, no slight or praise intended to Electromotive at all... never delt with them. In HS and college I spent 4 years in retail, then two years in outside sales, then self-employed running a network (LAN) consulting business for three years before working in corporate America. I got to appreciate both sides of the "service" coin very well after all of that. Cheers, Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 00:33:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01940; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:31:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA01912; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:23:23 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05969; Fri, 17 Jan 97 16:27:37 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA06554; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:19:48 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970117182041.00699050@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:20:55 -0600 To: diy_efi, efi332 From: Steve Ravet Subject: free compilers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Some may find this of interest, there is a list of freely available/source included compilers maintained at: http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/ --steve From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 00:50:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01971; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:48:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01966; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:48:49 -0500 Received: from van-52-0235.direct.ca (van-52-0235.direct.ca [204.174.240.83]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA24141 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:48:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701180048.QAA24141@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:33:18 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Howday y'all To correct a misinformation the TPI was designed for the introduction on the 85 vette. The cease fire was deemed inadequate and the TPI was introduced to cover up the flagships oversight. Now 85 vettes were slugs. R and track only got 98 MPH outa an auto in the quarter. I definitely know the L88 did 111 in the quart. Now a few people came along and managed to run mid 12s with a stock calibration and a few tweaks to their TPI. If you understand the system there is absolutely no need to throw money at it. A k/n, adjust reg, some timing adjustments plus some handy work with the MAF work wonders. Of course it is my opinion only that for 13 secs flat you don't do much. The wierd GN chasers who want to run 11s and 10s are outa their league as much as those who want to run these times with their moms 307 2 bbl. Of course lets not mention 20-25 MPG. Just my thoughts: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 00:54:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01995; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:54:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01990; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:54:41 -0500 Received: from van-52-0235.direct.ca (van-52-0235.direct.ca [204.174.240.83]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA25849 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:54:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701180054.QAA25849@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:39:13 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: RE: More TPI questions Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 03:58 PM 1/17/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm working with an 85' Corvette TPI. >I'm still looking for the "magic" hardware answer. >Can a stock 85' Corvette TPI be retrofitted with the 86'-89' ECM? >In other words, did GM change the TPI unit in any way >(besides the ECM and wiring harness) between 85' and '86. > >Thanks in advance, >Jeff Hi Jeff. In a nutshell yes. You need to wire in a two MAF burn off relays. You can't use the bosch burnoff controller. You need a new #165 ecm. and your appropriate calibration. FYI I've run the 85 setup using a 91 ECM with Map. Fine tune the fuel pressure with a adjustable reg. There are some "minor" injector differences in flow rate. You will also have to disable the cold start with 89 cal. GL: peter Ps if you get rid of that 870 ecm think of me. Got a couple of 165s with cal if anyone wants. Will take 730s too. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 02:19:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA00456; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:17:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02056; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:26:33 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-109-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.119]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08727 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:26:19 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970118002806.00925d18@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:28:06 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Efi332 schematics on FTP site Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Download ghostview and that will solve all your problems, I created the files from NT4.0's HPLJ's postscript driver, and some people have had to delete the first 2 lines (I think) and that solves some of the problems. It, works fined with ghostview. It's free, and it works! Sandy At 12:49 PM 1/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >Has anyone had any success reading in the postscript files of >the efi332 schematics? I have tried both ClarisWorks 3.0 and >Micrografx Designer 1.0 and each errors on reading the file. > >I looked at the files with just a text editor and it looks >like the file was saved using a font that is not on my >system. Could this be the problem? > >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Bill Moffitt > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 02:19:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA00604; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:19:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from upsmot03.msn.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02065; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:28:01 -0500 Received: from upmajb02.msn.com (upmajb02.msn.com [204.95.110.74]) by upsmot03.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id RAA02456 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:27:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 01:26:18 UT From: "Orin Harding" Message-Id: To: diy_efi Subject: RE: Electromotive TPI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yep, You got it! That's what happened to me at least. They also sell to the drag racer bunch and that's where there bread and butter is. There is another posting regarding E-motive and retail sales, well here is a real occurrence with E-motive. I purchased a fuel pump from them and when it was installed it leaked around the inlet fitting. I called them and was told that they don't guarantee fuel pumps! As I had only had this pump about a week I protested this and the fact that no where in there sales literature was this no guarantee mentioned. I finally had to talk to Mr. Long Jr. (don't remember his first name) and as a "favor" he decided to refund my money. When the refund had not arrived in about a month, I called and was told that they "forgot" to issue the credit and did finally issue it. Poor business to say the least. ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of Marc2365@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 6:24 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: Marc2365@aol.com Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI In a message dated 97-01-16 22:29:01 EST, you write: > > I had a similar experience with them about seven years ago. Every > problem was related to the vehicle according to them. The system would > not read RPM consistantly at cranking speed and they insisted the crank > pick-up wheel (supplied by them) was out of round. After machining it > myself the first time, I took it to the physics department machine shop, > where they rounded it to .0001 (yes that's the right number of zeros) > and the system still did not work. Finally I towed the whole damn truck > to their shop and showed them. They had to make some modifications to > the box to make it work. What made it worse was that their attitude > sucked (excuse the language). I've seen so many negative responses regarding Electromotive, I can't believe they're still in business! Is it because of idiots like me who purchase the product prior investigating it properly (with people like you on this newsgroup)? Marc 86 GTI Tec II From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 02:31:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA00665; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:28:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA00660; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:28:29 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d54.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.246]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA05240 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:42:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:42:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701180142.TAA05240@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: High Dollar Paper Weights Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi GM TBI units are cheap. My first carb to EFI conversion used it. It is bullet proof. Probably the best FI ever made when you compare cost/performance/realibility. I did the complete conversion for less than $200.00 in parts. If I didn't think _I_ would get in trouble for suggeating it, I'd reccommend packing the unit with C-4 explosives before returning it. BUT I DON'T RECCOMMEND IT. C-4 is too good for those folks. Good luck, and I hope you come out ok. At 03:22 PM 1/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >GMD: > > I have concluded that the only way to solve this problem is to >return the unit and regain my investment. The suggestion of using the >GM MAF sounds good. I have toyed with the idea of using a Holley 670 >CFM TBI on one of their new manifolds that will bolt to 86 and prior >heads such as I have. The stock ECM was made for a 350 TBI. but not >at 9.8:1 compression. > > The school of hard knocks... Tutition can be high. > >Thanks for the input. Honest answers are more valuable than comforting >answers. > >Ray > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 03:32:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA00807; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 03:28:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00802; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:28:29 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va19-23.ix.netcom.com [205.184.183.55]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA28718 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:28:24 -0800 Message-ID: <32E0425F.39B8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:24:15 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electromotive TPI References: <970117182452_1925527366@emout02.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Marc2365@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-16 22:29:01 EST, you write: > > > > > I had a similar experience with them about seven years ago. Every > > problem was related to the vehicle according to them. The system would > > not read RPM consistantly at cranking speed and they insisted the crank > > pick-up wheel (supplied by them) was out of round. After machining it > > myself the first time, I took it to the physics department machine shop, > > where they rounded it to .0001 (yes that's the right number of zeros) > > and the system still did not work. Finally I towed the whole damn truck > > to their shop and showed them. They had to make some modifications to > > the box to make it work. What made it worse was that their attitude > > sucked (excuse the language). > > I've seen so many negative responses regarding Electromotive, I can't > believe they're still in business! Is it because of idiots like me who > purchase the product prior investigating it properly (with people like you > on this newsgroup)? > > Marc > 86 GTI Tec II Actually, their product sounds pretty good on paper. It offers fairly good features for the price, and it was even more impressive six or seven years ago, when groups like this didn't exist. My problem was not so much with the system, but their product support. Anyway, I obviously fell for the same thing, so that makes two of us! Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 05:16:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA00968; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 05:12:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA00963; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:12:28 -0500 Received: from warloch (p1s15.beaches.net [206.240.81.48]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16882 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:12:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701180512.XAA16882@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Valve Train noise Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:08:02 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine > and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air Well actually it was originally designed for the 350 as used in the Corvette. In the 1986 models it was adapted to the 305 for use in the F-bodies. I will agree that for high RPM use it is a bit small but for street use, its intended goal of building torque is just what the doctor ordered! John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 15:27:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA01826; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:17:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01821; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:17:16 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d28.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.220]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA23890 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:16:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:16:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701181516.JAA23890@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Amen Rev. Faubion! People who work with Hi-perf. engines call this one phenomonial. Even though it dose not suck a lot of air, it's volumetric efficiency is almost scandelous. Peter F. quotes were right on the money. GMD At 11:08 PM 1/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >> cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >> and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air > >Well actually it was originally designed for the 350 as used in the >Corvette. In the 1986 models it was adapted to the 305 for use in the >F-bodies. I will agree that for high RPM use it is a bit small but for >street use, its intended goal of building torque is just what the doctor >ordered! > >John Faubion >jfaubion@beaches.net > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 15:46:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA01862; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:41:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01857; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:41:12 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial97.voyager.net [207.74.103.97]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id KAA24217 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:39:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32E12A94.6E5D@voyager.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:55:00 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Electromotive and their reputation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You know, this is really strange, but here's my observation on Electromotive: When their products work, people seem to really like their system. When their products don't, people really seem to hate dealing with Electromotive. Something about "non-existant" or "Woefully hostile" customer service. This has been my observation of posts on this, and the Formula SAE mailing lists. I have no experience with them as the posts convinced us at MSU FSAE to buy something else. Is this a fair assessment? If you, the reader of this post have a positive experience with elecromotive service, please reply!!! -- Dan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 16:49:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA01954; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:44:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA01949; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:44:32 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial002h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.67]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA29343 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:44:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32E0FC6C.3D06@net-quest.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:38:04 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Electromotive and their reputation References: <32E12A94.6E5D@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > When their products work, people seem to really like their system. I have not seen this, we've seen a few of their systems working, and they seem to be very unreliable, inconsistant, and very difficult to set up with their non-conformist attitude about calibration inputs. I've heard many of our distributors coming in contact with their fuel managements as well, and typically throwing them away in lieu of some better system. > > When their products don't, people really seem to hate dealing with > Electromotive. Something about "non-existant" or "Woefully hostile" > customer service. I have experienced this without even purchasing their product. Just calling them up to talk about their product to try to purchase one, totally turned me off to using them. They have even talked down their own unit. We were looking for a standalone ignition system, their HPV-1 sounded good, with the ability to alter ignition curves vs. manifold vacuum and boost, they told us not to use it, just to use the base unit. We talked to them about using their complete system, and integrating knock control, they told us it didn't work very well. I guess they were being at least honest!?!? > If you, the reader of this post have a positive experience with > elecromotive service, please reply!!! The only positive experiences I've seen with E-motive has been with the standalone ignition systems. I've seen many twin-plug porsches driving around with them for years, on the street and the track. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 17:58:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA02031; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:53:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA02026; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:53:47 -0500 From: Marc2365@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA01856 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:53:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:53:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970118125346_879493307@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi cc: Marc2365@aol.com Subject: Re: Electromotive and their reputation Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel Burk) > Sender: owner-diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu) > > You know, this is really strange, but here's my observation on > Electromotive: > > When their products work, people seem to really like their system. > > When their products don't, people really seem to hate dealing with > Electromotive. Something about "non-existant" or "Woefully hostile" > customer service. > > This has been my observation of posts on this, and the Formula SAE > mailing lists. I have no experience with them as the posts convinced us > at MSU FSAE to buy something else. > > Is this a fair assessment? > > If you, the reader of this post have a positive experience with > elecromotive service, please reply!!! > > -- Dan I have so far been happy with my Tec II unit. But I am terrified of what's going to happen when it breaks. A shop owner told me of the 25 turbo cars he's built and used Tec units 23 have failed. He absolutely refuses to deal with Electromotive now in any way and will use nothing but DFI. Marc From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 18:12:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA02060; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:06:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA02055; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:06:00 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id AMAEAOEK ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:04:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:04:14 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Electromotive To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Marc: Thanks for the input. Yes I have checked the engine oil system, timing, and engine temps. The fact remains that I relied to my detriment on the professional judgment of the vendor. They as it turned out had none, and yet held them selves out as EFI suppliers to the world. The injectors on this unit are simply too large for this application and there are other problems as well. I see on choice but to send this problem child home. Thanks, Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 18:49:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA02121; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:44:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA02116; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:44:05 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA03750 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:44:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:44:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970118134403_1045796440@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Efi332 schematics on FTP site Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-17 21:33:09 EST, you write: > Download ghostview and that will solve all your problems, I created the > files from NT4.0's HPLJ's postscript driver, and some people have had to > delete the first 2 lines (I think) and that solves some of the problems. It, > works fined with ghostview. It's free, and it works! Thanks for posting that information... I'll get the Ghostview and take a look. Been excited to see exactly what you gurus are up to . Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 19:27:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA02177; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:21:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA02172; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:21:12 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id ANBDBIDI ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:19:28 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:19:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: A little consumer corner & back to work To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings all: Wow, there is a lot of emotion out there re: E-motive. Fred said it best the difference between a good vendor and a bad one is, what they do when things go wrong. What everyone should know is that in (ALOMST) every state there are a set of consumer protection laws commonly known as the U.C.C. (Uniform Commericial Code). The significance is that these laws give consumers rights simply because they bought a product in the state. (does not apply to commericial use) Most bad vendors, attempt to sell the consumer on the idea that the only rights they have are those in the Expressed Warranty usually enclosed with the product. The UCC gives Implied Warranties. This means that under certain conditions the consumer is entitled to get back their money and incidential and consequential costs too. The most commonly used are the Implies Warranty of Merchantability and Implied Warranty of Fitness for a Particular Purpose. Merchantability, means that the "product" will be useful for its normal use. (Pumps should pump, and lights should light.) Fitness for a Particular Purpose, only applies to situations where the consumer, who is not an expert, relies on the vendor, who is supposed to know what he/she is doing to sell the consumer the right, size, type, etc.. of what ever is in question. Some states allow the MFG. to cut short these Implied Warranties and others like MS do not. This little information may be useful in cases where a vendor is resistant to helping you. Enough on consumer corner: I have something to add to the EFI world and I would like to share it for what it is worth. I do not have the time or access to equipment to make use of the idea but someone out there may. What if someone made a TPI out of an ABS injection plastic mold? The Tubes could be severed and the ID enlarged slightly to allow for different size sleeves. Thus, the end user could adjust the volume and length of the tubes. ABS is cheaper, and the interior smooth. It can be molded for Max. flow with out concearn for the union of tube to plenum B/C the molding would be all in one. The plenum would not have to be square, it could be designed like a header collector only in reverse. Sure there are R&D buggs to work out, but with a 160 degree engine thermostat why the heck not use it? Thanks for all the input. Ray. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 18 23:52:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA02480; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:43:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA02475; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:42:59 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.11) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:49:44 -0500 Message-ID: <32E17D11.47E3@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:46:57 -0800 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Valve Train noise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Hess wrote: > The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine > and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for the 305, and not the 350? > To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people > who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay TCC lock up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the need for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd every EGR location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for the 150 bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and points out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the consumer must understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake system, and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to your 350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will not work well for you. Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 01:10:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02614; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:07:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eecis.udel.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02609; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:07:12 -0500 Received: from ss54.ssnet.com by stimpy.eecis.udel.edu id aa04752; 19 Jan 97 1:02 GMT Message-ID: <32E16FCF.131E@eecis.udel.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:50:23 -0500 From: Dave Zug X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: 68HC11 Learning tools (AKA re:trans) References: <199701130426.UAA26289@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jennifer Rose wrote: > > General question to all. > Recomendation for learning/disassemble 68hc11. Have fair amount of > time to learn. Next purchase after motherboard upgrade will be epom burner. motorola's literature ordering page: http://design-net.com/home/lit_ord.html motorola's search page: http://design-net.com/cgi-bin/search most all literature is FREE(my specialty), and they pick up the postage too. The HC05 stuff will get you going, instruction set is a subset of the HC11, HC11 has changed a few and added alot, and taken some away, but for free its a start, and if you've not been exposed to microcontrollers, this is a good "learning" one. order the HC11 literature thru JDR or electronics catalog, but it might be free if you look hard enough. there are even .PDF files (adobe acrobat reader format) available from motorola on the hc05 and hc08, hc11 might even be there.. the files and acrobat reader let you have the manual on your pc. hope it helps. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 01:22:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02650; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:20:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02645; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:20:37 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id BDBCDAAD ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:19:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Valve Train noise To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Scot: Speaking of 350's and aftermarket parts. True the consumer should know what he is buying. Would you think it unreasonable if a consumer faxed (twice) complete information about the engine (including HP and TQ curves and break points) and its application to a vendor and then relied on the vendor to supply a TPI with a working ignition and the correct size injectors? Would you think it unreasonable for a consumer seeking to increase low end TQ and gas milage relative to a 650 Quadrojunk and HEI ign, to seek an aftermarket TPI to sit atop a set of 86 and prior aluminum heads? Cheers Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 01:55:44 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA02695; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:54:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from novell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA02690; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:54:35 -0500 Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:54:27 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:19:43 -0800 From: Brad Anesi To: DIY_EFI, alfa-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net, coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu.DIY_EFI@PAR, mailgate.wizvax.net.alfa-digest@PAR Subject: What temp' does Motronic go to closed-loop? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings from the North Pole... With the ice-cold weather we've had here in the northeast, my Alfa 164's coolant temperature doesn't get any hotter than about 135 degrees F'. Along with that, I've noticed a drop in gas mileage by about 20%. While I expect some drop in efficiency due to longer warm-up times, I'm wondering if the Motronic is even going to closed-loop. Alternatively, if it is going closed-loop, maybe it's being kept somewhat richer due to the lower coolant temperature, resulting in the decreased gas mileage. For those of you on the EFI-Digest, the '91 Alfa uses a Motronic 4.1 with a 3-wire O2 sensor. While I'm sure the mappings are different from car to car, I suspect the temperature change-points are similar on (water-cooled) Motronic-equipped cars, yes? Any thoughts on the matter? Thanks, Brad '86 Porsche 911 Coupe (in hibernation for the Winter) '91 Alfa 164 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 02:08:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02722; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 02:07:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02717; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:07:12 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial102.voyager.net [207.74.103.102]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id VAA03776 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:05:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32E1BD3F.6230@voyager.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:20:47 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey everyone: Does anyone have any spec sheets on the MC3484 FI driver? It's what's used in the old Haltec F3 and some of the F7 models, including mine. I would like to know if the MC3484S2-1 driver will handle two injectors in parallel. Suppossedly there is a MC3484S4 driver that is a direct plug-in that offers an increased capacity. The motorola web site was of NO help finding these things! Also, has anyone come up with a hall-effect circuit for splitting the signal from the ignition pick-up to an ignitor-box and an EFI box for your every day Honda or Kawasaki motorcycle? If you try to read your tach signal from one of the coils of your bike, you end up reading only half of the RPM's! I figure one must probably take it off the crank pickup that is installed for the ignitor. Big HMMMmmms in the Burk household tonight... From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 02:11:44 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02745; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 02:11:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02740; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:11:24 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA28733 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:11:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:11:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970118211121_1377993443@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools (AKA re:trans) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-18 20:21:00 EST, you write: > order the HC11 literature thru JDR or electronics catalog, but it might > be free if you look hard enough. there are even .PDF files (adobe > acrobat reader format) available from motorola on the hc05 and hc08, > hc11 might even be there.. the files and acrobat reader let you have the > manual on your pc. Yes, if you look hard enough, Motorola has PDF's for every processer they sell. Actually, so does National Semiconductor and Dallas Semiconductor as well, if anyone ever needs those components as a resource. Just a matter of spending 20 minutes on their respective websites finding it Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 02:12:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA02760; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 02:12:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA02755; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:12:21 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial102.voyager.net [207.74.103.102]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id VAA04654 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:11:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32E1BE80.74D6@voyager.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:26:08 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Fuel injection parts source: Kinsler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi For the person who wanted to know where to get FI parts: Try Kinsler. When I was in FSAE, we bought a high-pressure fuel pump from them for eighty-something dollars. Plus, Kinsler has gobs of other stuff like the regulators, the fuel rails, injectors, even billet from which you machine your custom rails. I don't know their number. Anyone??? From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 04:02:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA02894; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:57:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA02888; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:57:22 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (dialgroup1-95-CA-NOC1.westworld.com [207.105.40.105]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA21170 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:57:10 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970119025857.00920310@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:58:57 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Fuel injection parts source: Kinsler Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Kinsler is good, but very expensive. The add value to most parts that you can get elsewhere. I paid about $125 for ONE 72lb/hr injector from them. Of couse they charge for precision matching. I only bought one injector... think about it. They have tons of other stuff to, older mechincal injectors, and the like. Catalog was $12.00 Their number is (810) 362-1145, they are in troy michigan. Sandy At 10:26 PM 1/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >For the person who wanted to know where to get FI parts: > >Try Kinsler. When I was in FSAE, we bought a high-pressure fuel pump >from them for eighty-something dollars. > >Plus, Kinsler has gobs of other stuff like the regulators, the fuel >rails, injectors, even billet from which you machine your custom rails. > >I don't know their number. Anyone??? > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 19:37:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00634; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:29:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00628; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:29:00 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04341; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:42:59 -0600 Message-ID: <32E1D22D.5401@connect.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:50:05 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver References: <32E1BD3F.6230@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > Hey everyone: Does anyone have any spec sheets on the MC3484 FI driver? > > It's what's used in the old Haltec F3 and some of the F7 models, > including mine. I would like to know if the MC3484S2-1 driver will > handle two injectors in parallel. Suppossedly there is a MC3484S4 > driver that is a direct plug-in that offers an increased capacity. The > motorola web site was of NO help finding these things! > Yeah, I got a spec sheet. The S4 is designed to peak at 4A with a sustain of 1A. the S2 is designed to peak at 2.4A with hold of .6A Motorola discontinued this part a few years ago. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 19:37:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00633; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:29:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00622; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:28:59 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04909; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:53:59 -0600 Message-ID: <32E1D4C1.7737@connect.net> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:01:05 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver References: <32E1BD3F.6230@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Daniel Burk wrote: > > Hey everyone: Does anyone have any spec sheets on the MC3484 FI driver? > > It's what's used in the old Haltec F3 and some of the F7 models, > including mine. I would like to know if the MC3484S2-1 driver will > handle two injectors in parallel. Suppossedly there is a MC3484S4 > driver that is a direct plug-in that offers an increased capacity. I forgot to mention in my last response that I do have a few S4's that I could part with. I think I paid about $4 each back in 1989. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 20:07:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA00588; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:57:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA00583; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:57:29 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA06286 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:00:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:00:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970119110012_1992850860@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Postscript Viewing Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings, Sorry I forgot your name.... but to the gent having issues viewing the EFI postscript files... GhostView is definately the way to go. I just installed it at the recommendation of someone here and it works EXCELLENT. Go to www.yahoo.com, search for GhostView, and Yahoo comes back with a category. Select it, and when the page comes up, download away. Sorry I didn't copy the URL here. I forgot to write it down in the excitement. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 20:15:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA00650; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:15:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cedar.netten.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00645; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:15:19 -0500 Received: from default (max-83.netten.net [205.244.191.83]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA18408 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:27:45 -0600 Message-ID: <32CC162D.3F4A@netten.net> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 14:10:21 -0600 From: Brock and Jennifer Fraser X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Job Positions Available Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry to be posting this here- I know it's not the proper place, but I know that there are many qualified people reading these postings that might be interested. For instance, we have hired one EE already that responded to a message posted in this group. Here's the scoop: Hypertech is looking for a mix of a hardware designer and computer programmer to work hand in hand with the Tuning department. You should have familiarity with C or C++ using an IBM compatible. The job will entail customizing our Dynojet Hardware and writing new software drivers. Also, the person will support the Tuning staff providing custom hardware and software solutions for things like data acquisition, measuring spark advance in real time, electronically locking the vehicle in a single gear on the dyno etc. There will also be ample need of reverse engineering factory code (using our proprietary hardware and software) so a familiarity of assembly language will be necessary. Hardware projects will be varied and fun. There is opportunity to work on production hardware as well. The successful applicant will no doubt be an energetic, self motivated car nut. Hypertech is located in north east Memphis, with great housing prices and a comfortable climate. Hypertech offers full benefits including heath insurance (for you and your family), life, dental and disability for no cost to you. We also have a 401K that matches at 30%. Salaries are competitive and we will help with relocation. Please apply by faxing a resume Attn: Blake at 901 382 6434. The position is open immediately. -- Brock Fraser Hypertech, Inc. R&D Engineer Tuning Dept. Manager Visit Hypertech's Web Site at http://www.hypertech-inc.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 20:15:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA00657; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:15:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00652; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:15:26 -0500 Received: from warloch (p1s25.beaches.net [206.240.81.58]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA21264 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:42:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701190642.AAA21264@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:38:12 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > your every day Honda or Kawasaki motorcycle? If you try to read your > tach signal from one of the coils of your bike, you end up reading only > half of the RPM's! I figure one must probably take it off the crank Hmmm, why not take that reading and double it? John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 20:34:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA00771; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:33:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from valle.nexus.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA00766; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:33:12 -0500 Received: by valle.nexus.se; id VAA18709; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:33:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from bond.nexus.se(146.75.32.1) by valle.nexus.se via smap (3.2) id xma018707; Sun, 19 Jan 97 21:32:43 +0100 Received: from sputnic.jrt.se (sputnic.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.4]) by bond.nexus.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07208 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:32:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from dino.Jrt.SE (dino.Jrt.SE [192.71.169.2]) by sputnic.jrt.se (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA14028 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:33:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199701192133.WAA14028@sputnic.jrt.se> X-MAPI-MessageClass: IPM Priority: Normal To: diy_efi X-Mailer: FTP Software Internet Mail 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Johan Rodling Subject: RE: 68HC11 Learning tools (AKA re:trans) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:33:04 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dave Zug wrote: >>The HC05 stuff will get you going, instruction set is a subset of >>the HC11, HC11 has changed a few and added alot, and taken some away, >>but for free its a start, and if you've not been exposed to >>microcontrollers, this is a good "learning" one. >> It's nice to se so many working with the Motorola suit of MCU's, I my self = love'em. But in this case I must put out a small warning since the HC05 and= HC11 are *NOT* having the same instruction set. They look the same but the= re are some big diffrences. One is the BIT (BSET, BCLR etc) instruction wer= e the HC05 mnemonic specifies the bit order number and the HC11 mnemonic sp= ecifies the bit MASK, e.g HC05 BSET 3,(Foo) sets bit # 3 to '1' but HC11 BS= ET 3,(Foo) sets bit 0 & 1 to '1'. There are some other hugh diffrences too,= like the stack pointer (HC05 5bit & HC11 16 bit). The HC05 is a true single chip MCU while the HC11 can run i a number of mod= es, therefor a mush better choise if your a begginer and dont want to spend= money on a special HC05 'prom'-burner and special HC05 chips with the litt= le window so you can erase it. I must say though that the HC05 is a great MCU, its fast, ist very reliable= and you can almost have it making coffie and dance at same time. The great advatage for HC11 is that there are *VERY* good C-compilers out t= here, both freeware & buyware and it can handle 64 k of memory in expande m= ode (the 68HC11K4 handles 1M with intergrated bankswitch). It also comes wi= th A/D converter, EEprom and lots of timer functions. When I build my own EFI for my test car (FIAT 128 3p) before going for the = big one (Jaguar XJ12), I will use the HC11 as brain in that system. Happy Hacking /JR -74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodlin= g@Jrt.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 9= 0 91 =20 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 = 91 02 =20 SE-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 19 21:37:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA00874; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:34:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA00869; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:34:46 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA07571 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:34:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:34:45 -0500 Message-ID: <970119163444_1244440345@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools (AKA re:trans) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-19 15:44:10 EST, you write: > The great advatage for HC11 is that there are *VERY* good C-compilers out > there, both freeware & buyware and it can handle 64 k of memory in expande > mode (the 68HC11K4 handles 1M with intergrated bankswitch). It also comes > with A/D converter, EEprom and lots of timer functions. Its a solid processor, and you are right, being able to disable the internal rom/ram and use external components make programming a helluva lot easier. Using 2764's, 27128's, etc are a great way to store code since readily avail eprom burners are there. Also, to anyone who is going to be writing a lot of code, and changing it often for testing, Dallas Semiconductor makes a 27256 compatible STATIC RAM chip, typically used for EISA PC's to store their EISA configuration, but its pin compatible with the 27256 series eproms, and you can change your code easier and quicker. Plus, you can change one byte or group of bytes without having to erase the whole chip. I've been using them for about two years now, and they work great. They also can be used as RAM chips for the 68HC series microprocessors, having the advantage is after power off, information can be stored and retained. I originally though of using these for odometer readings on a digital dash project I'm about to start, however there are plenty of auto applications where retaining history or engine data after the vehicle is off might prove useful. Just an idea. Frederic Breitwieser If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you "HomeBrew Auto" Mailing List E-Mail: fjb203@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/fjb203/ 1993 Lincoln "Boomer" Continental 1989 AG "What color is that" Humvee 1998 "HomeBrew" From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 00:17:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA01042; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:14:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA01037; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:14:27 -0500 Received: (from Uapdata@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA10738 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:14:21 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uapdata set sender to apdata.com.au!ross using -f >Received: (from ross@localhost) by apdata.com.au (8.7.5/8.6.6) id KAA08745 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:27 +1030 (CST) From: Ross Forgione Message-Id: <199701200015.KAA08745@apdata.com.au> Subject: Re: Postscript Viewing To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:27 +0000 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <970119110012_1992850860@emout18.mail.aol.com> from "FJB203@aol.com" at Jan 19, 97 11:00:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Greetings, > > Sorry I forgot your name.... but to the gent having issues viewing the EFI > postscript files... > > GhostView is definately the way to go. I just installed it at the > recommendation of someone here and it works EXCELLENT. > This is not as elegant but if you modify the following in the file. 0.240000 0.240000 scale sm 1 slw This Bit from 0.000000 300.000000 translate To 100.000000 300.000000 translate 0 0 M 2250 3000 B clip N /FILL_X_CLIP 2250 def You can send it (pipe / print) to a postscript printer and it will come out O.K. A4 sheet in portrait mode. ( Did here anyway.) It will also display properly when you dump it into corel etc ... Later, Ross. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 03:04:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA01267; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:57:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA01262; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:57:19 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA06833; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:54:59 -0600 Message-ID: <32E2FC51.2367@connect.net> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:02:09 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Fuel line connectors References: <199701200015.KAA08745@apdata.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi To all those who responded to my problems reading the EFI332 schematics - a big THANKS. GhostView was able to read in all files with no problems. Onto another matter: It seems that aftermarket EFI systems use some sort of braided fuel lines with aluminum connections. I think these are AN8xx connectors (aviation style)? Who knows where I can go to get info on these connectors, such as if they are tapered or non-tapered pipe threads, common sizes (1/2", 5/8", etc...) for things like between fuel pump and filters, filter to fuel rail, etc... I've been reading this group for about a month now and haven't seen this subject mentioned before. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 03:29:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA01416; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:27:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01411; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:27:26 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va6-21.ix.netcom.com [199.35.207.213]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21015 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:27:14 -0800 Message-ID: <32E2E512.540C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:22:58 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver References: <199701190642.AAA21264@wave.beaches.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Faubion wrote: > > > your every day Honda or Kawasaki motorcycle? If you try to read your > > tach signal from one of the coils of your bike, you end up reading only > > half of the RPM's! I figure one must probably take it off the crank > > Hmmm, why not take that reading and double it? > > John Faubion > jfaubion@beaches.net I'm jumping in the middle of this (haven't tracked this specific conversation), but if you are trying to read RPM from coil signals on a two coil system, another way is to use two diodes to connect the two signals together. If you put the diodes in right, the resulting signal is the combination of the signals to each coil and the output should be your desired signal. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 03:36:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA01442; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:36:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA01437; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:36:31 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD36.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.86]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA26892 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:36:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:36:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701200336.TAA26892@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: Cold Start injector Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello all Recently completed install of 89 eprom. Removed the cold start inj. If any one would like old parts they are welcome to them- will ship in USA. Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 04:04:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA01482; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:00:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA01477; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:00:35 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d50.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.242]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA25327 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:00:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:00:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701200400.WAA25327@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: not directly EFI related, but close Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Gentlemen, a question came up on another list about which routing (paralell or series) is better for cooling an engine (fuel injected ofcourse)equiped with dual radiators. Since there are several megawatts of brain power right here, it thought I'd ask. Keep in mind all factors that are involved. Thanks in advance, and feel free to mail dircetly to me if you fell this is not DIY-EFI enough . GMD >Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:09:46 >To: KitCar@bolis.com >From: "George M. Dailey" >Subject: Re: lowering radiator >Cc: IMD1@msn.com > >Ah, a challanger! Clik clank... that cool sound of a 9mm auto being loaded... Most (all) technical books I have read say the opposite. If series cooling is superior, why aren't the factory radiators designed that way instead of running all the flues in paralell? We do agree that the higher the delta T (temperature differential between the coolant and ambient air), the more heat transferd, right? We also agree that by using the paralell routing we will decrease the total system fluid resistance, right? With any pump (engine cooling or boiler feed pump), decreasing the fluid resistance that it pumps into, will increase the flow. When you place the rads in series you will increase the total system resistance. There will be a pressure differential accross each rad and the whole system. This will be greater than the the paralell arrangement. All of these delta Ps will reduce the total flow through the system. With less water being pumped through the system, total cooling can only be reduced. Notice that I have not given any numbers. The reason is simple. There are too many varaibles like pump curves, ambient temp, coolant temp, coolant pressure, and fluid viscosity to take into consideration. But, given two identical radiators, the paralell routing will offer higher heat exchanging potential. Of course, if one rad is allready capable of doing the job, an additional unit in series will only cool it that much more. Keep in mind that if the coolant leaving the first rad is equal to the air temp, there can be no additional cooling. A cloged rad will hurt you more in series than in paralell. Since the full flow of the cooling system must go through each rad in series, one cloged rad will seriously reduce the total system flow through both rads. You are right about the balance cooling thing...to an extent. But you will not get it with the series set up either. I'm not a Mech. Engineer. Just a person who does plentey ME design projects. Good luck to person who asked about the rad problem. If you need additional justification in making the right decesion, let me know. > >GMD > > >At 12:22 AM 1/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >>On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, George M. Dailey wrote: >> >>> I reccommend running the rads in paralell. Tee the inlets and outlets. You >>> will get higher heat transfer with the largest temperature differential >>> (coolant to air). Running the rads in series will make one of them have a >>> lower temp diff (coolant to air). This will lessen the maximum heat >>> dissapation available. >>> >> >>Nope. Two half rads in series is the same thing as one big one, which >>works just fine. With 'em in parallel, you must haave almost exactly the >>same flow in each to equalize cooling. Hard to achieve in practice. The >>car will overheat. >> >>John >> >> >> > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 05:14:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA01571; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:11:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01566; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:11:28 -0500 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id QAA09651 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:11:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA08896; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:06:52 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA08896; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:06:52 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00174; Mon, 20 Jan 97 13:01:35 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701201801.AA00174@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:01:26 est To: diy_efi Subject: radiators (on EFI engines:) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Gentlemen, a question came up on another list about which routing >(paralell or series) is better for cooling an engine (fuel injected >ofcourse)equiped with dual radiators. I'd go for parallel, since the delta-T * will be greater over a larger surface area, giving you higher heat rejection Andrew Rabbitt * delta-T meaning the difference between the coolant temp and the ambient air temperature From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 05:33:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA01602; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:30:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis.iul-ccs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA01597; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:30:25 -0500 Received: from pme1-07.iul-ccs.com (pme1-07.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.40]) by atlantis.iul-ccs.com (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id WAA06695 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:28:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:28:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701200528.WAA06695@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 04:34 PM 1/19/97 -0500, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >Its a solid processor, and you are right, being able to disable the internal >rom/ram and use external components make programming a helluva lot easier. Recently I've been using the HC11E2 a lot. It makes things so much easier. Basically, it's an 'E9 core with 2K EEPROM instead of EPROM, you simply download code through the serial port using a freeware program. About 60 seconds to erase and program the whole 2K, and only requires a serial port. If 2K is not enough codespace, there is a new device (can't remember the mfg. offhand, I can look it up) which has an 8K EEPROM along with 16 port bits, allows you to run the chip in exp. mux. mode but still retain the port bits as if it was in single chip mode. Another flavor allows external RAM and EPROM (or E^2) while still emulating single chip mode. >Also, to anyone who is going to be writing a lot of code, and changing it >often for testing, Dallas Semiconductor makes a 27256 compatible STATIC RAM >chip, typically used for EISA PC's to store their EISA configuration, but Another great product is Dallas's Smart Socket. It provides battery backup for any low power CMOS RAM just by plugging it into the socket. Also contains a write protect function which will not allow writes to the chip if voltage is out of spec. This product is great since it can be added to any existing RAM without board modifications. They have models for 2K through 1M RAM chips. regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 07:41:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA01771; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:36:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mimos.my by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA01766; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:36:26 -0500 Received: from pop.jaring.my (pop.jaring.my [192.228.128.19]) by mimos.my (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA26163 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:36:18 +0800 (MYT) Received: from j10.ktk3.jaring.my by pop.jaring.my (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10707; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:36:11 +0800 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:36:10 +0800 Message-Id: <9701200736.AA10707@pop.jaring.my> X-Sender: bcw@pop3.jaring.my X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: diy_efi From: bcw@pc.jaring.my (Ben Wong) Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, >I'm jumping in the middle of this (haven't tracked this specific >conversation), but if you are trying to read RPM from coil signals on a >two coil system, another way is to use two diodes to connect the two >signals together. If you put the diodes in right, the resulting signal >is the combination of the signals to each coil and the output should be >your desired signal. > >Best Regards, Mazda > > Just wondering..does this theory applies to a vehicle that has individual coil for each spark plug? I'm trying to hook up a dash mounted tacho but my current wiring is only going to one coil and this gives an erratic reading! By the way it is a Nissan 200SX (Turbo)- CA18DET ECCS engine. Thanks everyone. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 10:21:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA02309; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:18:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA02304; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:18:27 -0500 Received: from p4-7.net-link.net (p4-7 [205.217.6.201]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA13712 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:19:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199701201019.FAA13712@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:40:55 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: Re: Fuel line connectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:02 PM 1/19/97 -0800, you wrote: >To all those who responded to my problems reading the EFI332 >schematics - a big THANKS. GhostView was able to read in all >files with no problems. > >Onto another matter: It seems that aftermarket EFI systems >use some sort of braided fuel lines with aluminum connections. >I think these are AN8xx connectors (aviation style)? Who >knows where I can go to get info on these connectors, such as >if they are tapered or non-tapered pipe threads, common sizes >(1/2", 5/8", etc...) for things like between fuel pump and >filters, filter to fuel rail, etc... I've been reading this >group for about a month now and haven't seen this subject >mentioned before. > >Bill > Accel (Cleveland, OH) sells a variety of SAGINAW fuel line fittings which emulate those used on GM cars. They are complete w/ O-ring seat and accept an 8AN hose fitting on the other side. Some even have hose barbs if you elect not to use braided hose. Their phone is (216) 398-8300 or http://www.mrgasket.com Cheers Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 12:52:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA02501; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:48:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA02496; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:48:31 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv1-10.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv1-10.ix.netcom.com [205.184.22.42]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA07357 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <32E38C81.4549@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:17:21 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wanted: Information on the Motorola MC3484 series FI driver References: <9701200736.AA10707@pop.jaring.my> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ben Wong wrote: > > Hi, > > >I'm jumping in the middle of this (haven't tracked this specific > >conversation), but if you are trying to read RPM from coil signals on a > >two coil system, another way is to use two diodes to connect the two > >signals together. If you put the diodes in right, the resulting signal > >is the combination of the signals to each coil and the output should be > >your desired signal. > > > >Best Regards, Mazda > > > > > Just wondering..does this theory applies to a vehicle that has individual > coil for each spark plug? I'm trying to hook up a dash mounted tacho but my > current wiring is only going to one coil and this gives an erratic reading! > By the way it is a Nissan 200SX (Turbo)- CA18DET ECCS engine. > > Thanks everyone. It should. I applied this to a 4 cylinder two coil GM engine. The principal is to combine the pulses without allowing any pulses from other coils to feedback into each coil. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 13:55:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA02606; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:50:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from geocities.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA02601; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:50:31 -0500 Received: from mail.geocities.com (stamp.cowan.edu.au [139.230.127.130]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA15512 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:45:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:45:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701201345.FAA15512@geocities.com> X-Sender: dzorde@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: dzorde@geocities.com (dzorde) Subject: Re: A little consumer corner & back to work Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I spent a week manufacturing an ABS intake body for the front of a TPI throttle body, like a nice smooth curved Y-shape to make use of two air boxes. Anyway once the engine got hot and the throttle body expanded it split the ABS. I guess what I'm trying to say is that everywhere the ABS would bolt to the manifold and any other alloy/iron parts, it would crack due to expansion differences between the ABS and what its bolted too. And I think it may be a problem to allowing for expansion gaps. Now I am using a 180 thermostat so the engine is quite hot. But I still think it would be a problem. Dan dzorde@geocities.com > > >----------geoboundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > >
>Postage paid by:
> > > >----------geoboundary > > > >Greetings all: > > Wow, there is a lot of emotion out there re: E-motive. Fred said >it best the difference between a good vendor and a bad one is, what >they do when things go wrong. > > What everyone should know is that in (ALOMST) every state there >are a set of consumer protection laws commonly known as the U.C.C. >(Uniform Commericial Code). The significance is that these laws give >consumers rights simply because they bought a product in the state. >(does not apply to commericial use) > > Most bad vendors, attempt to sell the consumer on the idea that >the only rights they have are those in the Expressed Warranty usually >enclosed with the product. The UCC gives Implied Warranties. This >means that under certain conditions the consumer is entitled to get >back their money and incidential and consequential costs too. > > The most commonly used are the Implies Warranty of Merchantability >and Implied Warranty of Fitness for a Particular Purpose. >Merchantability, means that the "product" will be useful for its >normal use. (Pumps should pump, and lights should light.) Fitness for >a Particular Purpose, only applies to situations where the consumer, >who is not an expert, relies on the vendor, who is supposed to know >what he/she is doing to sell the consumer the right, size, type, etc.. >of what ever is in question. > > Some states allow the MFG. to cut short these Implied Warranties >and others like MS do not. This little information may be useful in >cases where a vendor is resistant to helping you. > > >Enough on consumer corner: > > I have something to add to the EFI world and I would like to share >it for what it is worth. I do not have the time or access to >equipment to make use of the idea but someone out there may. > > What if someone made a TPI out of an ABS injection plastic mold? >The Tubes could be severed and the ID enlarged slightly to allow for >different size sleeves. Thus, the end user could adjust the volume and >length of the tubes. ABS is cheaper, and the interior smooth. It can >be molded for Max. flow with out concearn for the union of tube to >plenum B/C the molding would be all in one. The plenum would not have >to be square, it could be designed like a header collector only in >reverse. > > Sure there are R&D buggs to work out, but with a 160 degree engine >thermostat why the heck not use it? > >Thanks for all the input. > >Ray. > > > >----------geoboundary-- > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 14:36:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA02685; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:33:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA02679; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:33:46 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id IAA18464; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:33:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma018449; Mon, 20 Jan 97 08:33:01 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC06AC.F8545830@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:36:02 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'John Faubion'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:34:56 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: John Faubion[SMTP:jfaubion@beaches.net] Sent: Friday, January 17, 1997 11:08 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Valve Train noise > cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine > and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air Well actually it was originally designed for the 350 as used in the Corvette. In the 1986 models it was adapted to the 305 for use in the F-bodies. I will agree that for high RPM use it is a bit small but for street use, its intended goal of building torque is just what the doctor ordered! Well, actually...check with GM. The TPI base was originally designed around the flow requirements of the 305! John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 15:30:16 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA02766; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:24:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA02761; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:24:17 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA21080; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:23:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021054; Mon, 20 Jan 97 09:23:25 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC06B4.03759A10@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:28 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Scot Sealander'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:25:21 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately 435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to this. Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM Install a throttle body air foil increases the flow further to about 530 CFM (Still not in the realm of what one would consider for even a moderate performance 350). Opening up the filter cover and putting a K&N filter in gets us into the 560 CFM range. Modifying the MAF (Cutting and polishing the heat sink inside) gets us up to about 585 As you can see, there is room for much improvement without ever getting out of the air intake. The MAF, itself flows about 529 CFM stock. Taking the screens out gets it up to over 700 CFM. Modifying the heat sink and cleaning up the inside gets it up to about 750 CFM. Note that all this data is corrected to 20.4 inches of water (What Holley rates their carburetors at). Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. ---------- From: Scot Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] Sent: Saturday, January 18, 1997 7:47 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Valve Train noise John Hess wrote: > The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine > and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for the 305, and not the 350? > To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people > who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay TCC lock up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the need for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd every EGR location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for the 150 bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and points out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the consumer must understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake system, and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to your 350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will not work well for you. Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 16:38:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA02899; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:32:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02894; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:32:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d41.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.233]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12562 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:31:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:31:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701201631.KAA12562@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What do the torque curves look like after doing these mods? Since the TPI system is designed to give the maximum tuned effect at a certian point, what do you really gain? Bench flow numbers don't give me a rise. Some TPI system don't even use a MAF. Do they have a _significant_ power advantage over the MAF equiped tpi? Convince me to butcher my $300 MAF. Thanks man GMD At 09:25 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow >characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately >435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to >this. >Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM >Install a throttle body air foil increases the flow further to about >530 CFM (Still not in the realm of what one would consider for even a >moderate performance 350). >Opening up the filter cover and putting a K&N filter in gets us into >the 560 CFM range. >Modifying the MAF (Cutting and polishing the heat sink inside) gets us >up to about 585 >As you can see, there is room for much improvement without ever >getting out of the air intake. > >The MAF, itself flows about 529 CFM stock. Taking the screens out >gets it up to over 700 CFM. Modifying the heat sink and cleaning up >the inside gets it up to about 750 CFM. > >Note that all this data is corrected to 20.4 inches of water (What >Holley rates their carburetors at). > >Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the >equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the >realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by >mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. > > >---------- >From: Scot Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] >Sent: Saturday, January 18, 1997 7:47 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Valve Train noise > >John Hess wrote: > >> The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >> and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. > >Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for >the 305, >and not the 350? > > >> To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people >> who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. > >Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as >aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay >TCC lock >up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the >need >for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd >every EGR >location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for >the 150 >bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and >points >out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. > >I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the >consumer must >understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake >system, >and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to >your >350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will >not work >well for you. > >Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 16:52:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA02927; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:48:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Zeus.Token.Net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02922; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:48:37 -0500 Received: (from jshapiro@localhost) by Zeus.Token.Net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA29327 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: Jody Shapiro Message-Id: <199701201702.MAA29327@Zeus.Token.Net> Subject: Re: Valve Train noise To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:02:25 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "John Hess" at Jan 20, 97 09:25:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Hess wrote: > I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow > characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately > 435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to > this. > Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM [snip] You wouldn't be getting this info from TPIS' "Insider Hints" booklet or the book out from HP Books or Classic Motorbooks on "Modifying Chevrolet Fuel Injection Systems", would you? -Jody -- http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 18:26:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA03099; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:21:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from aphex.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA03094; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:21:29 -0500 Received: from van-as-07a03.direct.ca (van-as-07a03.direct.ca [204.174.249.99]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA01693 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:21:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701201821.KAA01693@aphex.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:05:08 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi Gang You guys should do a bit of homework. The best writeup of data and airflow specs I saw was in High-Tech Magazine in an article"altered profiles" by Ray Bohacz. Lots of airflow and horsepower calcs. The gist is the max HP assuming you have blueprinted your engine is 329 gross HP with everthing stock. That would be your limitation. With tricks and the stock L98 roller cam with 1.6 rockers this jumps to about 373 HP. With the torgue curve this means low 13s high 12s but that is it folks You wanna go faster you spends more money. As for general info on ecms injectors ect TPIS has a great web page with a good writeup on ecms pcms whatever. Either printout their page or get their book. So follow the advice by the sages and use the system for what it is given. CUall: peter At 10:31 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >What do the torque curves look like after doing these mods? Since the TPI >system is designed to give the maximum tuned effect at a certian point, what >do you really gain? Bench flow numbers don't give me a rise. Some TPI >system don't even use a MAF. Do they have a _significant_ power advantage >over the MAF equiped tpi? Convince me to butcher my $300 MAF. > >Thanks man >GMD > >At 09:25 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow >>characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately >>435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to >>this. >>Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM >>Install a throttle body air foil increases the flow further to about >>530 CFM (Still not in the realm of what one would consider for even a >>moderate performance 350). >>Opening up the filter cover and putting a K&N filter in gets us into >>the 560 CFM range. >>Modifying the MAF (Cutting and polishing the heat sink inside) gets us >>up to about 585 >>As you can see, there is room for much improvement without ever >>getting out of the air intake. >> >>The MAF, itself flows about 529 CFM stock. Taking the screens out >>gets it up to over 700 CFM. Modifying the heat sink and cleaning up >>the inside gets it up to about 750 CFM. >> >>Note that all this data is corrected to 20.4 inches of water (What >>Holley rates their carburetors at). >> >>Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the >>equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the >>realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by >>mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. >> >> >>---------- >>From: Scot Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] >>Sent: Saturday, January 18, 1997 7:47 PM >>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Re: Valve Train noise >> >>John Hess wrote: >> >>> The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >>> and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. >> >>Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for >>the 305, >>and not the 350? >> >> >>> To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people >>> who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. >> >>Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as >>aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay >>TCC lock >>up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the >>need >>for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd >>every EGR >>location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for >>the 150 >>bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and >>points >>out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. >> >>I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the >>consumer must >>understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake >>system, >>and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to >>your >>350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will >>not work >>well for you. >> >>Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com >> >> >> >> >> > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 19:33:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA03202; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:29:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA03197; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:29:18 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA03123; Mon, 20 Jan 97 08:23:20 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma003120; Mon, 20 Jan 97 08:22:56 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA10507 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:30:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701201630.IAA10507@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Old, vanes & vortexes Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've been out for a few days. There are various vortex induction systems out there in the commercial world. For EFI and carb., there is the Tornado induction managment system, patented by a local guy (here in SoCal). Also, one of the aftermarket EFI "plate" adapters has sprouted vortex-generator cuts. Vortex generation can provide lots of oddball benefits, from better fuel scavaging from the walls, to slight compression, to more effective squish. All need tuning. There is an SAE paper out there, republished in a book I skimmed, about a spiral/helictical intake tract with the valve at the center. To put a few threads in the blender, can we make a Hilsch Vortex Tube in our cylinder heads? Just yesterday I finished "Race Car Aerodynamics, Designing for Speed". Lots of good references, various discussions of vortexes on the _outside_ of motors. Air probably cannot tell the difference... Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America BSP, MSCE, not yet LPE; Chevy & Hawk w/ V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@server, x1258 Santa Ana CA outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 19:45:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA03228; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:39:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA03223; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:39:19 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id NAA06588; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:38:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma006585; Mon, 20 Jan 97 13:38:40 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC06D7.ADA79E70@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:41:46 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'George M. Dailey'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:40:39 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The curve remains pretty much the same with attendant increases across the board (remember, you haven't changed the dominant characteristic of where maximum torque will be build, the runner length). There are increases all along the curve that can be felt in the seat of your pants. As for "butchering" your $300 MAF sensor, I would not recommend it. Modify, yes...butcher, no! As for the bench flow numbers not giving one a rise...Note that any improvements in air flow amount to "free" horsepower. The more air one can move with the same amount of energy, the more gas can be mixed, thus more power. Bye the way, I live in central Texas, where it is not at all unusual for the temperature to be in the hundreds for days or weeks at a time in the summer. I have been running a modified MAF for 4 years, now, along with the modified filter housing, a K&N filter, CB Performance 56mm throttle body (with air foil), ported plenum and base, SLP siamesed runners, Performance Distributor distributor, coil, Live Wires and electronics, Air Flow Research heads (2.02 valves, 190cc ports), Competition Cams Roller rockers, roller lifters ('89 block), Lingenfelter headers, Random Catalytic converter, and Borla Cat-back. Not all of this was done at once (I started with the K&N and Air Foil and modified the intake system piece by piece), so I can tell you that each of the changes produced measurable results, more at the top end than at the bottom, but that is pretty much to be expected. As for a non-MAF engine producing more horsepower; yes, it will (one less piece of air resistance). Note that you will also have to remap the chip and modify the wiring harness to accomodate the changes, though. ---------- From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@tecinfo.com] Sent: Monday, January 20, 1997 10:32 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Valve Train noise What do the torque curves look like after doing these mods? Since the TPI system is designed to give the maximum tuned effect at a certian point, what do you really gain? Bench flow numbers don't give me a rise. Some TPI system don't even use a MAF. Do they have a _significant_ power advantage over the MAF equiped tpi? Convince me to butcher my $300 MAF. Thanks man GMD At 09:25 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow >characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately >435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to >this. >Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM >Install a throttle body air foil increases the flow further to about >530 CFM (Still not in the realm of what one would consider for even a >moderate performance 350). >Opening up the filter cover and putting a K&N filter in gets us into >the 560 CFM range. >Modifying the MAF (Cutting and polishing the heat sink inside) gets us >up to about 585 >As you can see, there is room for much improvement without ever >getting out of the air intake. > >The MAF, itself flows about 529 CFM stock. Taking the screens out >gets it up to over 700 CFM. Modifying the heat sink and cleaning up >the inside gets it up to about 750 CFM. > >Note that all this data is corrected to 20.4 inches of water (What >Holley rates their carburetors at). > >Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the >equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the >realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by >mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. > > >---------- >From: Scot Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] >Sent: Saturday, January 18, 1997 7:47 PM >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Valve Train noise > >John Hess wrote: > >> The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >> and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. > >Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for >the 305, >and not the 350? > > >> To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people >> who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. > >Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as >aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay >TCC lock >up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the >need >for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd >every EGR >location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for >the 150 >bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and >points >out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. > >I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the >consumer must >understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake >system, >and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to >your >350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will >not work >well for you. > >Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com > > > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 20:29:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA03342; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:20:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA03337; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:20:49 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA13904 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:20:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:20:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970120145629_471373878@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-20 00:43:08 EST, you write: > Another great product is Dallas's Smart Socket. It provides battery backup > for any low power CMOS RAM just by plugging it into the socket. Also YOu can also do that yourself by putting a litium 4.5v battery in series with a diode to the memory chip, thus preventing the battery from being charged, and most ram chips can't be accessed when the voltage is about 4v or less (not all, but most), which the diode also does (most small signal diodes have a voltage drop of about .6 volts. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 20:32:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA03369; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:26:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA03364; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:18 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id OAA09616; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:25:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma009600; Mon, 20 Jan 97 14:25:29 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC06DE.37F2D9E0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:28:35 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'peter paul fenske'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:27:28 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The original post I was taking exception to was from a person who intimated that if any more power could be obtained by seemingly minor modifications to the intake, that GM would have done it. Everything I have said since refutes that. That is the ONLY point I have to make. As for homework, that is the reason I started all over on the engine instead of "tacking" things on. ---------- From: peter paul fenske[SMTP:pfenske@direct.ca] Sent: Monday, January 20, 1997 12:05 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Valve Train noise Hi Gang You guys should do a bit of homework. The best writeup of data and airflow specs I saw was in High-Tech Magazine in an article"altered profiles" by Ray Bohacz. Lots of airflow and horsepower calcs. The gist is the max HP assuming you have blueprinted your engine is 329 gross HP with everthing stock. That would be your limitation. With tricks and the stock L98 roller cam with 1.6 rockers this jumps to about 373 HP. With the torgue curve this means low 13s high 12s but that is it folks You wanna go faster you spends more money. As for general info on ecms injectors ect TPIS has a great web page with a good writeup on ecms pcms whatever. Either printout their page or get their book. So follow the advice by the sages and use the system for what it is given. CUall: peter At 10:31 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >What do the torque curves look like after doing these mods? Since the TPI >system is designed to give the maximum tuned effect at a certian point, what >do you really gain? Bench flow numbers don't give me a rise. Some TPI >system don't even use a MAF. Do they have a _significant_ power advantage >over the MAF equiped tpi? Convince me to butcher my $300 MAF. > >Thanks man >GMD > >At 09:25 AM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I would rather not quote my source; however, if one looks at the flow >>characteristics of the stock TPI one finds that it flows approximately >>435 CFM. Making slight mods as follows causes significant changes to >>this. >>Cut the screens off the MAF increases the flow to 512 CFM >>Install a throttle body air foil increases the flow further to about >>530 CFM (Still not in the realm of what one would consider for even a >>moderate performance 350). >>Opening up the filter cover and putting a K&N filter in gets us into >>the 560 CFM range. >>Modifying the MAF (Cutting and polishing the heat sink inside) gets us >>up to about 585 >>As you can see, there is room for much improvement without ever >>getting out of the air intake. >> >>The MAF, itself flows about 529 CFM stock. Taking the screens out >>gets it up to over 700 CFM. Modifying the heat sink and cleaning up >>the inside gets it up to about 750 CFM. >> >>Note that all this data is corrected to 20.4 inches of water (What >>Holley rates their carburetors at). >> >>Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the >>equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the >>realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by >>mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. >> >> >>---------- >>From: Scot Sealander[SMTP:Sealand@clarityconnect.com] >>Sent: Saturday, January 18, 1997 7:47 PM >>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Re: Valve Train noise >> >>John Hess wrote: >> >>> The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >>> and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. >> >>Do you have a source for this? How do you know it was designed for >>the 305, >>and not the 350? >> >> >>> To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people >>> who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. >> >>Maybe not. Just what does that "air foil" do anyway... ;-) As far as >>aftermarket PROMs, the three I have looked at did not do much. Delay >>TCC lock >>up by several mph, maybe reduce the ESC attack rate (makes sure of the >>need >>for 93 octane!) Change fan turn on temp.... One completely zero'd >>every EGR >>location..... Basically no ignition or fuel changes. Not a lot for >>the 150 >>bucks or so they charge! That is close to fraudulent in my book, and >>points >>out that GM tunes them pretty well from the factory. >> >>I am sure that some of the aftermarket is great stuff, but the >>consumer must >>understand what he is buying. The TPI is a great low/mid RPM intake >>system, >>and that may not be clear to all consumers. So if you make changes to >>your >>350 that increase airflow requirements at higher RPMs, the TPI will >>not work >>well for you. >> >>Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com >> >> >> >> >> > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 21:15:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA03475; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:08:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ccnet3.ccnet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA03470; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:08:24 -0500 Received: (from fmlin@localhost) by ccnet3.ccnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA26606 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:07:23 -0800 From: "Frank/G.speed" Message-Id: <199701202107.NAA26606@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Subject: Re: Old, vanes & vortexes To: diy_efi Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:07:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199701201630.IAA10507@server.eng.dsea.com> from "Frank Evan Perdicaro" at Jan 20, 97 08:30:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2009 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I've been out for a few days. > > There are various vortex induction systems out there in the > commercial world. For EFI and carb., there is the Tornado > induction managment system, patented by a local guy (here in I've been wondering about this commercial Tornado thingy... Personally I first saw it in Taiwan (where lot of stuff do not work as advertised). In EFI systems with throttle bodies, won't what ever vortex effect the Tornado generate just hit the throttle plate and lose effectiveness? What about after it divides in the plenum/runners? Most people on rec.autos.tech think it bogus too... What do the people here think? > SoCal). Also, one of the aftermarket EFI "plate" adapters > has sprouted vortex-generator cuts. > > Vortex generation can provide lots of oddball benefits, from > better fuel scavaging from the walls, to slight compression, > to more effective squish. All need tuning. > > There is an SAE paper out there, republished in a book I skimmed, > about a spiral/helictical intake tract with the valve at the center. > > To put a few threads in the blender, can we make a Hilsch Vortex > Tube in our cylinder heads? > > Just yesterday I finished "Race Car Aerodynamics, Designing for > Speed". Lots of good references, various discussions of vortexes > on the _outside_ of motors. Air probably cannot tell the difference... > > Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America > BSP, MSCE, not yet LPE; Chevy & Hawk w/ V 3700 Segerstrom Ave > inhouse: frank@server, x1258 Santa Ana CA > outhouse: frank@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 > > -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 22:59:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA03619; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:52:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA03614; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:52:07 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id OAA20024 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id OAA02780; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:51:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:51:44 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel line connectors In-Reply-To: <199701201019.FAA13712@serv01.net-link.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > Accel (Cleveland, OH) sells a variety of SAGINAW fuel line fittings which > emulate those used on GM cars. They are complete w/ O-ring seat and accept > an 8AN hose fitting on the other side. Some even have hose barbs if you > elect not to use braided hose. > Their phone is (216) 398-8300 or http://www.mrgasket.com > > Cheers > > Bill > > Question. What if I want to use the existing steel fuel line that runs from the tank to the engine. I will install a pump close to the tank but can the existing steel line be flared (like a brake line) to accomodate a threaded fitting. If not then I could use it as a return line and buy steel braided to run the length of the car. I think the steel line there now is 3/8. Thanks to all jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 22:59:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA03610; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:49:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA03605; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:49:44 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA24511; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970120145625_1993026869@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi, kitcar@bolis.com, Xephic@aol.com Subject: Dual Radiators Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-19 23:13:49 EST, you write: > Gentlemen, a question came up on another list about which routing (paralell > or series) is better for cooling an engine (fuel injected ofcourse)equiped > with dual radiators. Since there are several megawatts of brain power right > here, it thought I'd ask. > Keep in mind all factors that are involved. George, I think the answer is this: Makes no difference in regards to thermal properties. This is why: Two smaller radiators in parallel would dissipate 1/2 of the fluid, but all the heat each, down to whatever level. Two smaller radiators in series would dissipate 1/2 the heat from all the fluid, also bringing it down to whatever level. This of course doesn't take into consideration flow and surface area, and assumes the surface area is identical. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 22:59:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA03627; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:53:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from chalice.firewall.dsea.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA03622; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:53:06 -0500 Received: by chalice.firewall.dsea.com; id AA02673; Mon, 20 Jan 97 14:41:52 PST Received: from server.eng.dsea.com(204.30.91.33) by chalice.firewall.dsea.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma002661; Mon, 20 Jan 97 14:41:25 -0800 Received: (from frank@localhost) by server.eng.dsea.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16807 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:48:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Message-Id: <199701202248.OAA16807@server.eng.dsea.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Old, vanes & vortexes Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Most applications I've seen for Tornado assume that the generator goes after the air meter -- EFI anyway. On the carburated car, it could go inside the air cleaner. I'd give one a try if one could be found. From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 20 23:17:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA03678; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:10:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA03673; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:09:57 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id PAA21368; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id PAA02859; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:09:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:09:18 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Scot Sealander'" Subject: RE: Valve Train noise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, John Hess wrote: > Since this is a "dry" flow system (no fuel in the air stream), the > equivalent to a carbureted engine is about 650 CFM. NOW we are in the > realm of a solid 350. Further improvements may now be realized by > mods to the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. I'm thinking about throttle body size for my 351-C. So a 650 cfm carb would actually flow about 750 cfm if only air was going through it? What do people think about using old carbs as throttle bodies? That is if you drill out the venturies. Anybody out there done this? I've think someone mentioned that some company made an adapter so you could mount a TPS on an old carb? Thanks in advance for answers to any of the above. jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 00:14:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA03755; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:06:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA03749; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:05:58 -0500 Received: (from Uapdata@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id LAA11437 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:05:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uapdata set sender to apdata.com.au!ross using -f >Received: from zero.apdata.com.au (zero [202.14.95.1]) by apdata.com.au (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA19152 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:37:34 +1030 (CST) Received: from zero.apdata.com.au (zero [202.14.95.1]) by apdata.com.au (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA19152 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:37:34 +1030 (CST) Received: (from ross@localhost) by zero.apdata.com.au (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA26503 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:35:09 -0600 From: Ross Forgione Message-Id: <199701211635.KAA26503@zero.apdata.com.au> Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:35:08 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <970120145629_471373878@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "FJB203@aol.com" at Jan 20, 97 03:20:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I tried this once and was faced with the occasional memory corruption occouring. After much frustration and diagnosis (out with the logic analyser ) I discovered that when powering off the device (cant remember the device number), That CS would stay High and WE would go low just long enough for the databus to be loaded into the ram chip at what ever location was floating on the address bus at the time. (Bummer). The Dallas chip takes care of this nicely as power and WE/CE (Depending on the type of chip) are passed through the socket to the ram chip. Ross > YOu can also do that yourself by putting a litium 4.5v battery in series with > a diode to the memory chip, thus preventing the battery from being charged, > and most ram chips can't be accessed when the voltage is about 4v or less > (not all, but most), which the diode also does (most small signal diodes have > a voltage drop of about .6 volts. > > Fred > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 10:13:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA11082; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:05:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 10:58:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA11635; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:51:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id FAA11531; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:37:46 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial175.voyager.net [207.74.103.175]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id VAA05035; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:32:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32E46677.6C4B@voyager.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:47:19 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rambo@diversicomm.com CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Injection molded TPI system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Ray, What you are proposing sounds a whole lot like the concept behind the new GM designed LS1 V8 engine! I have seen three different plastic intake designs on this engine, each of which had a different runner length and width. The Corvette spec LS1 had shorter runners, and the intake was rather low profile to aid in a low hood line. The two others were for GM Truck & Bus, for their light trucks. These intakes were much taller, and had some incredibly long intake tubes that curved around the plenum, so that the plenum was actually encased inside a basket of runners! All of these intakes were made of a plastic made by Dupont, I believe. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 11:12:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA11689; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:07:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA11682; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:05:35 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA18397 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:11:04 +1100 (EST) >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA12614; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:56:52 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA12614; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:56:52 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00087; Tue, 21 Jan 97 08:54:55 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mv8.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701211354.AA00087@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:54:50 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: Dual Radiators Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Two smaller radiators in series would dissipate 1/2 the heat from all >the fluid, also bringing it down to whatever level. The heat rejection from the second radiator in series would be less than the first because the coolant inlet temperature is lower for the second radiator than the first. Heat transfer is proportional to the temperature differential between the fluid and the environment/heat sink. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 11:32:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA11822; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:28:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA11817; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:28:24 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial175.voyager.net [207.74.103.175]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id VAA09035; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:50:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32E469A1.55F1@voyager.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:00:49 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kleenair@ix.netcom.com CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Motorcycle RPM's and you Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mazda wrote: > > I'm jumping in the middle of this (haven't tracked this specific > conversation), but if you are trying to read RPM from coil signals on a > two coil system, another way is to use two diodes to connect the two > signals together. If you put the diodes in right, the resulting signal > is the combination of the signals to each coil and the output should be > your desired signal. > > Best Regards, Mazda HMMMMMmmmm! I'll look into it tomorrow. It sure would be nice if it's that easy. Thanks Mazda! From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 13:07:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12199; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:00:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA12194; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:11 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA10827 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970121080007_913448459@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > After much frustration and diagnosis (out with the logic analyser ) I > discovered that when powering off the device (cant remember the device > number), That CS would stay High and WE would go low just long enough > for the databus to be loaded into the ram chip at what ever location was > floating on the address bus at the time. (Bummer). The Dallas > chip takes care of this nicely as power and WE/CE (Depending on the > type of chip) are passed through the socket to the ram chip. Never experienced that myself Ross, either I've been really lucky, or the random address that got creamed was well above where my code sat. EIther way, I've been using the Dallas static ram chips (or boxes, they are kinda big) for a while now and had great results. Sounds like their powered socket offers a lot of the same features. Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 13:07:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12206; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:00:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA12201; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:23 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA17749 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:00:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970121080022_1825363595@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Dual Radiators Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-21 06:47:03 EST, you write: > Thick cores tend not to be useful to us due to the low air velocity > available to cool these things, they do, however, tend to be a good > heatsink for drag racing type applications, but absolutely horribly for > road racing. I'll keep what you said in mind Todd, as I'm building for street and hopefully street racing rather than strip racing. Thanks for the feedback! Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 13:43:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12293; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:37:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA12288; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:37:56 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <2657>; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:37:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:37:51 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan X-Sender: chanwe@spark22.ecf To: diy_efi Subject: Re: 68HC11 Learning tools In-Reply-To: <970120145629_471373878@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 FJB203@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-01-20 00:43:08 EST, you write: > > > Another great product is Dallas's Smart Socket. It provides battery backup > > for any low power CMOS RAM just by plugging it into the socket. Also > > YOu can also do that yourself by putting a litium 4.5v battery in series with > a diode to the memory chip, thus preventing the battery from being charged, > and most ram chips can't be accessed when the voltage is about 4v or less > (not all, but most), which the diode also does (most small signal diodes have > a voltage drop of about .6 volts. > > Fred > I have used both the smart socket and the simple diode schemes to backup low power SRAM chips. While a single diode is much cheaper than a smartSocket it does have a distinct disadvantage. When the power is killed the smart socket can detect an impending low voltage (on the power rail) condition and prevent random writes to the sram by pulling !chipSelect & !writeEnable high. If the simple diode scheme must be used for cost reasons I would add a large cap, several pull up resistors (for the control lines) and replace the diode with a hot carrier diode (0.25v forward drop). Wen From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 13:59:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA12323; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:51:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA12318; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:51:08 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <2697>; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:53 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan X-Sender: chanwe@spark22.ecf To: diy_efi Subject: diagnostic tool Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available online. Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 15:41:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA12493; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:33:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from falcon.cs.mercer.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA12488; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:33:00 -0500 Received: by falcon.cs.mercer.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA20709; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:28:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:28:48 -0500 (EST) From: Thor Johnson To: DIY EFI Maillist Subject: My senior design page is finally up! Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I hope this may be of some use to people out here. I finally got my proposal and Preliminary Design Review on the web: http://falcon.cs.mercer.edu/~johnsont/srdesign/ Note that our project encompasses more than just the EFI unit; I am working on the EFI unit, my parters are working on the Intake and Operator controls sections. I'm trying to get the AutoCad drwings up there, but haven't had much success yet. Thor Johnson johnsont@falcon.mercer.edu http://falcon.mercer.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.edu/~johnsont/warpmap From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 20:00:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA13171; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:57:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA13166; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:57:16 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id LAA18077 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id LAA21627; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:56:59 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:56:58 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: $800.00 DFI In-Reply-To: <9701211354.AA00087@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello fellow EFIers. I was talking to Marino this mornig at Pantera east (Florida) and they are selling the DFI (I don't know which model) for about $800.00 U.S. You can reach them at 813-381-1151 This comes with an O2 sensor and a MAP sensor and I believe this is a batch type system. Marino seemed to be very helpfull. later jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 21 20:42:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA13270; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:41:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13265; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:19 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29636; Tue, 21 Jan 97 12:45:29 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA16024; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:37:48 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970121143836.00685cc8@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:38:39 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: Fuel line connectors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:51 PM 1/20/97 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > >> Accel (Cleveland, OH) sells a variety of SAGINAW fuel line fittings which >> emulate those used on GM cars. They are complete w/ O-ring seat and accept >> an 8AN hose fitting on the other side. Some even have hose barbs if you >> elect not to use braided hose. >> Their phone is (216) 398-8300 or http://www.mrgasket.com >> >> Cheers >> >> Bill >> >> >Question. What if I want to use the existing steel fuel line that runs >from the tank to the engine. I will install a pump close to the tank but >can the existing steel line be flared (like a brake line) to accomodate a >threaded fitting. If not then I could use it as a return line and buy >steel braided to run the length of the car. >I think the steel line there now is 3/8. > >Thanks to all >jw > Absolutely it can. Get yourself a flare kit (?) from Sears or somewhere. It's a clamp that grabs the line, and a pointy thing that screws down and flares the end of the line. Also good for brake lines, trans cooler lines, etc. I got a cheap one for $12, I'd recommend spending more and getting a good one. Mine lets the line slip thru a little. Also, the S-10 V8 swap manual from JTR says that the sizes of the fuel lines (supply and return) affect how the pressure regulator works. Don't know why that would be, but it would mean that you can't change line sizes. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems steve@imes.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 00:52:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA13598; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:50:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA13593; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:50:16 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d16.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.208]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21117; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:49:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:49:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701220049.SAA21117@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: KitCar@bolis.com From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Final justification of paralell rads Cc: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Gentlemen, I checked a my reference books and could find none that spelled out one routing is beter than the other. I will bow in disgrace. There have been many post by experts in this feild, that confirm the paralell routing to be the best. I do hate to holster a weapon without firing a few shots:), so I can still prove I was originally correct, through fundamental heat transfer logic. I thought I was wrong about something once in the past, but later found out I was right:) So here it goes. Clik...clank T=inlet temperature T1=outlet temp from Rad1 T2=outlet temp from Rad2 Assume that total coolant flow is equal in each option Assume that cooling air flow and temp is equal in each option to each rad Assume that rads are not placed one behind the other in any option Assume each rad to be identical to the other H1=heat dissapated from Rad1 H2=heat dissapated from Rad2 series set up H1 H2 >>>------------/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\----------/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\----------->>> T Rad 1 T1 Rad2 T2 In this setup, the following can said with confidence. Fact 1: Heat dissapated by any rad will increase as the inlet temperature to that rad increases or simply put, H1 & H2 are directly proportional to T1 & T2. Fact 2: Since Fact 1 is true, H1 must allways be greater than H2 because T is allways greater than T1. If T=T1, then no heat was dissapated by Rad 1. If T1=T2, then no heat was dissapated by Rad 2 and it is not needed. If T2>T, one or both Rads picked up some heat. Let's look at the paralell setup. H1 ----/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\--- | | >>>----------| |--------->>> T | | T1 | | ----/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\--- H2 since the total flow must be equal to the series arrangement, we must have 1/2 of the total system flow going to each radiator. Fact 3: Since only the flow changed (when compared to H1 in the series setup) H1 in the paralell setup must be greater than the H1 in the series setup. This is because you are giving it more time to dissapate the heat than in the series set up. Remember, it stays in the radiator twice as long because the flow has been reduced by 1/2. The inlet temps (T) in each setup are identical. Fact 4: H1 and H2 must be equal in the paralell setup because all other factors are equal. Fact 5: since H1 in the paralell set up is dissapating more heat than H1 in the series set up, and H1 must equal H2 in the paralell set up, we are forced to draw one conclusion. The paralell set up must be dissapating more heat than the series arrangement. summary: total H paralell=H1+H2 total H series=H1+H2 H1 must allways be greater than H2 when in series H1 must equal H2 when in paralell H1 in paralell must allways be greater than H1 in series If some one can justify a different conslusion, I would love to hear it. Fire away and excercise extreame predjudice! Thanks to all who commented and the excellent asci art. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 04:09:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13865; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:07:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from eecis.udel.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13860; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:07:27 -0500 Received: from ss51.ssnet.com by stimpy.eecis.udel.edu id aa13131; 22 Jan 97 4:06 GMT Message-ID: <32E58F7B.2A6C@eecis.udel.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:54:35 -0500 From: Dave Zug X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Dual Radiators References: <970120145625_1993026869@emout08.mail.aol.com> <32E40DD6.1A26@net-quest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > In a message dated 97-01-19 23:13:49 EST, you write: > Gentlemen, a question came up on another list about which routing (paralell > or series) is better for cooling an engine (fuel injected ofcourse)equiped > with dual radiators. Since there are several megawatts of brain power right > here, it thought I'd ask. > Keep in mind all factors that are involved. How about some creative piping and valving to create a series-parrallel setup, where the flow in series and the flow in parallel can be biased with the valves? you could "tune" for conditions, or even "control" the valves with an MCU. Control it to utilize the benefits of series or parallel using rpm, speed, Differential pressure, Load, or ??. send all royalties to your favorite childrens charity ;-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 04:30:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13903; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:30:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13896; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:30:06 -0500 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA21508; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:30:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi cc: KitCar@bolis.com Subject: Re: Final justification of paralell rads In-Reply-To: <199701220049.SAA21117@ns.tecinfo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, George M. Dailey wrote: > > Gentlemen, I checked a my reference books and could find none that spelled > out one routing is beter than the other. I will bow in disgrace. There have > been many post by experts in this feild, that confirm the paralell routing > to be the best. I do hate to holster a weapon without firing a few shots:), > so I can still prove I was originally correct, through fundamental heat > transfer logic. I thought I was wrong about something once in the past, but > later found out I was right:) So here it goes. Clik...clank > Very impresdsive write-up, George, and while I do not and have not disputed basic theory, sometimes real life works a little differently. Your analysis requires several assumptions that do not hang true in practice, and there may be more at work as well. I have seen several kit cars that tried your approach. Overheated. Switched to series. Problem solved. Production cars use series, too. For example, for years Jaguar has set up their radiators with two inlets at the top (parallel) connecting to a series setup in the botttom (ie, one outlet). I know some will now joke about Kags, but if maintained they will not overheat on the hottest day. One of the variables may be the speed of the coolant thru the setup. Just like pulling the thermostats can cause you to overheat because the coolant flows through too fast -- there are many variables and few if any home builts are enginewered beyond the use of whatever components are convenient. Home heating systems, which just dump the heat of the burner into the rooms, are series circuits (zones are in parallel). So, I am not prepared to concede the point. Builders are encouraged to try whatever they wish. My advice would be to go series to start -- easier to plumb and looks a lot neater, too - and take it from there. John From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 04:56:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13948; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:55:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from linet02.li.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13943; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:55:55 -0500 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet02.li.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA24740 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:55:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:56:14 -0500 (EST) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Dual Radiators In-Reply-To: <32E58F7B.2A6C@eecis.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dave Zug wrote: > How about some creative piping and valving to create a series-parrallel > setup, where the flow in series and the flow in parallel can be biased > with the valves? you could "tune" for conditions, or even "control" the > valves with an MCU. Control it to utilize the benefits of series or > parallel using rpm, speed, Differential pressure, Load, or ??. > Interesting idea, although it might not be easy to package in a sports car, and those valves are big and heavy! In my basement, where the size and weight of plumbing is not an issue, I had the hot water piping run so that I can switch various components of the heating system in series or parallel (I have a rather elaborate setup that includes two different ways to heat water with oil, electric and solar. Depending on the time of the year and other factors, I can vary the configuration and, hence, the oerformance characteristics of the system.). In winter, with no electric water and no solar gain, the best overall performance comes from having the two oil circuits in series (less overall flow but highest temps and best recovery). John From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 04:59:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13964; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:59:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from one.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13959; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:59:25 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (port-13-7.access.one.net [206.112.194.137]) by one.net (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id XAA21095 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:59:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199701220459.XAA21095@one.net> X-Sender: dapiper@mail.one.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:58:11 -0500 To: diy_efi From: David Piper Subject: RE: mtbe, hc05 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:09 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > >> e without pinging. >> >MTBE as far as I know doesn't have any toxic side affects. It's the >> >active ingredient in "104 octane boost". >> >cheers >> >jw >> > >> I accessed the "104 Octane Boost" web page and they say there is NO MTBE in >> their products....what's up? >> >> >> Bill >> >> >Interesting. It used to. I ran a mass spec on it back in undergrad and >identified MTBE as the major ingredient (~80%). I'll hit the Merck >index and check out this toxicity stuff. Maybe they stopped using it for >a reason? Also a variant of MTBE (which I can't remember right now) is >probably what they have uesed instead. >cheers >jw > > 104+ contains MMT, which, being an organic heavy metal (methyl manganese pentadienyl tricarbonyl) is quite toxic. Mr. Pease uses a simple mineral spirit carrier solvent with no detergents. The manganese will build up deposits on your plugs and combustion chamber. Do not get this stuff on your skin or in your tank. TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 05:15:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA14005; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:14:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from uia.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA14000; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:14:19 -0500 Received: from old-guy (157.22.213.69) by uia.net with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:15:21 -0800 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Re: Dual Radiators Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:57:02 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1358241175-27029846@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Gentlemen, a question came up on another list about which routing (paralell > > or series) is better for cooling an engine (fuel injected ofcourse)equiped > > with dual radiators. > George, I think the answer is this: Makes no difference in regards to thermal > properties. This is why: > > Two smaller radiators in parallel would dissipate 1/2 of the fluid, but all > the heat each, down to whatever level. > > Two smaller radiators in series would dissipate 1/2 the heat from all the > fluid, also bringing it down to whatever level. > 2 cents. The amount of heat rejected to a cooling media is dependent upon delta temp and the length of time. The higher the difference between the product and the cooling media, the faster the rate of heat rejection. This is not a linear function and raising the delta significantly raise's the rate of rejection. Placing two radiators in series divides the delta temp between them, with the first doing more of the work than the second because its effective delta temp is much higher - thus far more efficient. In series, you do not double the cooling by adding a second identical radiator because they are working at different cooling levels. In parallel you do. You also gain by lowering the coolant velocity and giving entrapped cavitation and steam bubbles more time to collapse out before being recirculated. At high rpm and load your coolant is more foamlike than liquid like - not unlike your lube oil. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris ---------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 13:51:40 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14699; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:48:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14694; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:47:59 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <3016>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:47:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:47:50 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan X-Sender: chanwe@spark28.ecf To: diy_efi Subject: diagnostic tool Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Since there is interest in the plans for the data logger I will have them scanned. My scanner is dead right now so it will take several days to get all the plans captured. The designs that I will be posting will be a copy of the original design notes (they may be a little difficult to follow). I will try to compile a list of connections between the different chips to make building the unit easier. Constructing the logger is not very difficult (about 1 weekend of wiring). Because of the relatively low clock speeds involved the device can be hand wired. The only part of the construction which may pose some problems is the fact that I used one GAL to simplify the design. I will include the JEDEC file with the programming specifications for that GAL in my later post. I will also try to make pre-programmed chips available. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 15:58:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA14895; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:56:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA14890; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:56:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199701221556.KAA14890@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA105408586; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:56:26 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Fuel Injection Simulation To: diy_efi (Do-It-Yourself-EFI) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:56:26 EST X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have just finished a complete fuel injection simulation, written in 100% Java (not Javascript). It is on the efi332 WWW site: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/bowling/fi.html It should prove useful for those interested on how certain parameters affect injector pulse width. - Bruce (Yes, this is my *first* Java application.) -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 18:35:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA15145; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:32:30 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA15140; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:32:28 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 22 Jan 1997 18:31:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 22 Jan 1997 18:31:20 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id MAA03769 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:31:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:31:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701221831.MAA03769@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: fuel additive Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi interesting discovery http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/Fed-Ct/Circuit/dc/opinions/94-1505a.html lawsuit of Ethyl Corp against EPA to allow new fuel additive Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 21:40:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA15794; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:31:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id QAA15756; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:24:14 -0500 Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01748; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:24:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199701222124.QAA01748@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: efi332, diy_efi Subject: [admin] oops... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:24:11 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi -------- A filled disk on coulomb may have resulted in lost mail over the last day or two. Repost if necessary.... John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 22:31:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA15875; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA15870; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:26:55 -0500 Received: from 198.5.212.233 by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vnBDH-0004QeC; Wed, 22 Jan 97 14:32 PST Message-ID: <32E62585.4FAA@electriciti.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:34:47 +0000 From: Mike Jones Organization: Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EFI digest Subject: Turbo City Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone have any experince with Turbo Cities TBI systems? There prices are very resonable, but I was hoping someone here had some experience with them. Also, typically how does a TBI system perform compareed to a TPI system? Which would give better gas mileage on a 350? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 22 23:14:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA16110; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:12:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferryman.kemet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA16105; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:12:39 -0500 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com by ferryman.kemet.com (SMI-8.6/Kemet Electronics Corporation) id SAA14522; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:28:55 -0500 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9a for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1997Jan22.170927.1724.187249; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:11:45 -0500 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi Message-ID: <1997Jan22.170927.1724.187249@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:11:45 -0500 Subject: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked one of these? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 02:23:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA16427; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:21:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA16422; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:21:18 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id SAA11726 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id SAA17015; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:20:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:20:57 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: DFI for $800.00 In-Reply-To: <1997Jan22.170927.1724.187249@smtpgw.kemet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello. Due to the failed disk thing at Coulomb I though that maybe some people might not have got this post so I'm sending it out again. If you got it then please excuse the repeated intrusion. I haven't a clue as to what DFI sells there ECM's for but, I was talking to somebody named Marino this mornig at Pantera east (Florida) and they are selling the DFI (I don't know which model) for about $800.00 U.S. You can reach them at 813-381-1151 This comes with an O2 sensor, MAP sensor and is a batch type system. Marino seemed to be very helpfull. later jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 03:07:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA16494; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 03:06:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cliff.cris.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA16489; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:06:40 -0500 Received: from adt1 (cnc805210.concentric.net [206.173.118.210]) by cliff.cris.com (8.8.3/(96/11/08 1.11)) id WAA10468; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:06:38 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970122220445.0068afd4@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: adt1@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:07:03 -0500 To: diy_efi From: adt1 Subject: heat transfer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >It has been a while since my thermodynamics course but I remeber a >lot of those heat transfer equations that had delta T ^ 4 which >is saying that the temperature differenc is key. That's for radiative heat transfer (sort of, it's not actually delta T^4, just absolute T^4). Convective and conductive heat transfer are both dependent on simply delta T when it comes to the temperature term. Anthony Tsakiris From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 05:40:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA16819; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:38:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA16814; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 00:38:22 -0500 Received: from warloch (p1s17.beaches.net [206.240.81.50]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05943 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:38:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701230538.XAA05943@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Valve Train noise Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:33:19 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > I'm thinking about throttle body size for my 351-C. So a 650 cfm carb > would actually flow about 750 cfm if only air was going through it? > What do people think about using old carbs as throttle bodies? That is > if you drill out the venturies. > Anybody out there done this? Actually yes. I started with a Holley 750 (List#3310-2) and used a propane torch to melt the lead holding the booster venturi in place. I left the basic venturi intact which provides a place to get ported vacuum. I mounted a standard GM TPS on the end of the throttle shaft and modified the secondary throttles to open at a 1:1 ratio. The 750 now flows 830 cfm. This is for a Chevy 427 in a 78 El Camino. John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 08:26:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA17121; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:23:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bernina.ethz.ch by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA17116; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 03:23:04 -0500 Received: from triton (actually triton.ethz.ch) by bernina.ethz.ch with SMTP inbound; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:22:41 +0100 Received: from [129.132.76.48] (mini.ethz.ch) by triton.ethz.ch id AA21925; Thu, 23 Jan 97 09:22:31 +0100 X-Sender: wkaufman@triton.ethz.ch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:22:26 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: Walter Kaufmann Subject: Bosch in Europe Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I am looking for a part supplier in Europe who has the injection staff. Does anyone have the address of Bosch in Stuttgart? Many thanks Walter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 15:52:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA17906; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:47:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA17900; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:47:13 -0500 Received: from sexftp.netinc.ca (pm1-20.netinc.ca [205.211.8.120]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00596 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:47:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:47:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701231547.KAA00596@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Sender: aa877@freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Scott Feaver Subject: where'd everyone go? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Where did everyone go? I havent gotten anything in a couple of days no. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 18:57:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA18354; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:50:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA18349; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:50:57 -0500 Received: from rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.10.30]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14447 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chinwall@localhost) by rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06713; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:50:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:50:55 -0500 (EST) From: alifya chinwalla To: diy_efi Subject: Ford EGO In-Reply-To: <32E16FCF.131E@eecis.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello all I have a question concerning the Ford EGO #9f472 Binary output. What is the response time of the sensor? Is the sensor capable of detecting mixture on a per cylinder basis at 2000 rpm. Also does the sensor have an offset when at operating temperature. Is there a source of info on the sensors used by Ford not the general stuff found in their manuals. We need the technical specifications for their sensors. Thanks in advance Joe West From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 19:03:26 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA18379; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:02:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA18374; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:02:39 -0500 Received: from wmoffitt.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA21804; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:00:15 -0600 Message-ID: <32E7B638.15A0@connect.net> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:04:24 -0600 From: Bill Moffitt Organization: Triad Spectrum, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: where'd everyone go? References: <199701231547.KAA00596@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Scott Feaver wrote: > > Where did everyone go? I havent gotten anything in a couple of days no. I haven't either. Maybe we've been dropped from the list? From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 19:56:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA18499; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:54:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ashley.jbc.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA18494; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:53:58 -0500 Received: from pcpaul.jbc.edu (pcpaul.jbc.edu [198.146.154.48]) by ashley.jbc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10489 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:53:57 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970123195415.006d4e28@ashley.jbc.edu> X-Sender: paul@ashley.jbc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:54:15 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Paul Beam Subject: natural gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This may stray a bit, but does anyone have any experience converting a small engine to run on natural gas? We want to take a gasoline powered AC generator and convert it. Any info on suppliers of parts would be appreciated. Thanks, Paul R Paul Beam Computer Systems Engineer Johnson Bible College 7900 Johnson Drive Knoxville, TN 37998 (423) 573-4517 (423) 579-2337 fax From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 21:52:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA18695; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:47:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ccnet3.ccnet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA18690; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:47:38 -0500 Received: (from fmlin@localhost) by ccnet3.ccnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA09614 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:46:25 -0800 From: "Frank/G.speed" Message-Id: <199701232146.NAA09614@ccnet3.ccnet.com> Subject: EGT vs AFR To: diy_efi Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:46:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "John Hess" at Jan 20, 97 01:40:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 695 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I as having a little chat with a buddy that went to PRI last week. He said in one of the Q&A sessions, someone stated that if AFR is too rich, EGT would be high. I think my friend heard it wrong. Or...? Is EGT solely related to AFR, regardless of other factor such as if force induction is used? Or high CR race motor? -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 22:12:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA18854; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:10:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from precisionimages.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA18849; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:10:40 -0500 From: cerikson@precisionimages.com Received: by precisionimages.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28240; Thu, 23 Jan 97 14:10:52 PST Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 14:10:52 PST Message-Id: <9701232210.AA28240@precisionimages.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: where'd everyone go? To: diy_efi In-Reply-To: <32E7B638.15A0@connect.net> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi You haven't been dropped, I just got added and have been lurking for a day or two wondering where the traffic was. How much mail usually flows on this list? -- Chris Erikson | cerikson@precisionimages.com Hardware Engineer | URL:http://www.PrecisionImages.com Precision Digital Images, | 8520 154th Ave NE PCI & Nubus video capture boards | Redmond, WA. 98052, USA | 206-882-0218 fax 206-867-9177 On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Bill Moffitt wrote: >Scott Feaver wrote: >> >> Where did everyone go? I havent gotten anything in a couple of days no. > >I haven't either. > >Maybe we've been dropped from the list? > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 22:55:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA18999; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:51:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA18994; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:51:24 -0500 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.40.135.23]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA03596; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:59:15 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id ag15703; 23 Jan 97 22:53 WET Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 17:51 EST From: Nass Jeff To: diy efi Subject: RE: natural gas Message-Id: <74970123225147/0004388719DC6EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Try Impco @ (310) 860-6666. They can probably direct you to your local distributor. ---------- This may stray a bit, but does anyone have any experience converting a small engine to run on natural gas? We want to take a gasoline powered AC generator and convert it. Any info on suppliers of parts would be appreciated. From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 23:35:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA19057; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:33:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA19052; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:33:36 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d38.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.230]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA06643 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:33:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:33:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701232333.RAA06643@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I was aksing questions like this a few months ago. The experts assured me that DIY-ABS is suicidal. I'm still looking for the DIY'er who's been there and done that. GMD At 06:11 PM 1/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS use >for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know what >the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked >one of these? > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 23:52:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA19135; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:49:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA19121; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:49:36 -0500 From: rwj5125@electriciti.com Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vnYys-0004KVC; Thu, 23 Jan 97 15:54 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 15:54 PST X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: Turbo City To: EFI digest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone have any experience with Turbo Cities TBI systems. Good or bad your experience would be appreciated. How does a TBI system compare to TPI system in performance? Also, between a MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system which would be the most desirable? Is one more reliabe or offer a better ability to compensate for major elevation change? Why? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 23 23:52:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA19137; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:49:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA19129; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:49:39 -0500 From: rwj5125@electriciti.com Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vnYyu-0004KQC; Thu, 23 Jan 97 15:54 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 15:54 PST X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: Turbo City To: EFI digest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone have any experience with Turbo Cities TBI systems. Good or bad your experience would be appreciated. How does a TBI system compare to TPI system in performance? Also, between a MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system which would be the most desirable? Is one more reliabe or offer a better ability to compensate for major elevation change? Why? -- Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 02:00:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA19636; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:58:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA19631; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:58:36 -0500 Received: from p4-0.net-link.net (p4-0 [205.217.6.194]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA26426 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:00:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199701240200.VAA26426@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:20:29 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: Re: natural gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:54 PM 1/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >This may stray a bit, but does anyone have any experience converting a small >engine to run on natural gas? We want to take a gasoline powered AC >generator and convert it. Any info on suppliers of parts would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Paul > >R Paul Beam >Computer Systems Engineer >Johnson Bible College >7900 Johnson Drive >Knoxville, TN 37998 >(423) 573-4517 >(423) 579-2337 fax > Your man is Ak Miller in Pico Rivera, CA. Sorry, I don't have a phone number. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 02:00:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA19656; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:00:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA19651; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:00:45 -0500 Received: from p4-0.net-link.net (p4-0 [205.217.6.194]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA26628 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:02:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199701240202.VAA26628@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:22:38 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: Re: EGT vs AFR Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 01:46 PM 1/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >I as having a little chat with a buddy that went to PRI last week. >He said in one of the Q&A sessions, someone stated that if AFR >is too rich, EGT would be high. I think my friend heard it wrong. >Or...? > >Is EGT solely related to AFR, regardless of other factor such >as if force induction is used? Or high CR race motor? > >-- >Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei >fmlin@ccnet.com | Web page - http://www.ccnet.com/~fmlin/gspeed.html >EG2, 1x.x @ 9x MPH | Info sheet - "finger fmlin@ccnet.com > gspeed.info" >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >NOTE: The web page has a new address, remember to update your bookmark. > Your're right.....he heard it wrong. EGT goes high as the AFR goes up (lean). From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 03:19:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA19755; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:18:53 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA19750; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:18:51 -0500 Received: from ven-ca3-03.ix.netcom.com (fcmtb@ven-ca3-03.ix.netcom.com [207.92.176.67]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA13210 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:18:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:18:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199701240318.TAA13210@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: EGT vs AFR Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've found EGT to drop either side of stoich. Have my 323 tuned to run at 15-15.5/1 at cruise, EGT dropped from when it ran at 14.7. Fred >Your're right.....he heard it wrong. EGT goes high as the AFR goes up (lean). > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 05:32:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA20081; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:30:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA20076; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:30:09 -0500 Received: from 172-95-50.ipt.aol.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/15Jan97-0837AM) id AA29187; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:32:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:32:39 -0600 Message-Id: <9701240532.AA29187@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: Good experience with Electromotive!!! Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi It seems that I am alone, but I have an Electromotive TEC-II that works really good. And Ray, your injectors cant be too big. I run 8 72LB/hour injectors on a 351 and the car runs fine with 21 mpg. I will agree that to call Electromotive, the staff is less than friendly. But after calling many companies in my lifetime, I have learned to deal with problem people. It takes a special type of finesse to handle them. Just like I had my TEC-I fail the coils. I called and talked to the owners son. He said that he had never heard of this before and wanted to know what I did. I told him that this system was on a show car and never abused. So I sent it in for repair explaining the story of after how it got wet the coils started to split in half and melt. When I called to check on the repair, he still said that he had never had a unit to this, especially one that was in such good condition. As a consolation he offered me a new TEC-II for the price of the repair ($350). I even had an un registered copy of the programming software thanks to the idiots at Turbo Tune in New Jersey from where I bought it and he said since they did not treat me right, he would only charg me half for the software liscence. I thought out of all of this, that they were extremely fair. Now for as far as the operation of the controller, it works great. It does take some time to understand the basic principle of how the fuel value is calculated to set it up. But once you understand it, it is easier to program than a haltec. If anyone ever needs help with an Electromotive programming, let me know, and I can help. I am running a Twin turboed V8 and have great throttle response, good mileage considering the cam, and it will start in any weather hot or cold. And for those people that think that they are junk. Just look at the first GM direct fire ignition on the buick grand national. If the coils look a lot like the ones on an Electromotive, there is a good reason. Gm's first direct fire ignition was purchased from Electromotive, because at the time their technology in ignition control was the state of the art. Their Ignition control chip is patented. If anyone wants to flame this message, than go ahead. I don't care. For some peoples problems with the TEC relate to the mounting of the sensor. The wheel doesnt have to be so much round, as it cannot be within a 1/2 inch of other metal and the sensor must have a VERY SOLID mount. A vibrating sensor will send the thing crazy. Also use only carbon core plug wires. Spiral race core wires will cause miss-fire. David Doddek pantera@pobox.com 217-422-3722 69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera (I like to go fast) From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 08:54:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA20914; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:53:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from orb.direct.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA20908; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:53:13 -0500 Received: from van-as-01a02.direct.ca (van-as-01a02.direct.ca [204.174.248.2]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA02790 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:53:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701240853.AAA02790@orb.direct.ca> X-Sender: pfenske@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:35:41 -0800 To: diy_efi From: peter paul fenske Subject: Test of Life Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi all Is the old net still alive? I hope I didn't get excummunicated. Oh well till later: peter From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 12:15:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id MAA21188; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:10:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from iquest3.iquest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA21183; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:10:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:10:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199701241210.HAA21183@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: (qmail 2003 invoked from network); 24 Jan 1997 12:10:20 -0000 Received: from and-001-24.iquest.net (HELO speartec.iquest.net) (206.53.241.88) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 24 Jan 1997 12:10:20 -0000 X-Sender: speartec@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: john spears Subject: GM buying from Electromotive?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In digest 28 David Doddek speaks of the merits of Electromotive. And while I'm glad your system is working well, your statements about GM buying direct fire systems from Electromotive are completely false. All Grand National direct fire systems from 1984 - 1987 are manufactured by Magnavox, and consist of a "coil pack" of three coils molded together. GM DIS systems came online, slowly, in 1986 on 3.8L SFI engines, other than the Grand National. The GM DIS system eventually went on to be used on all of GM's DIS equipped engines, displacing Magnavox. There was some early on development work done between the two companies (Electromotive and GM), but nothing ever came of it. As the years went by, the only thing Electromotive supplied GM with was a bunch of pain in the ass, frivolous law suits. John Spears From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 14:39:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA21357; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:33:02 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA21352; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:32:58 -0500 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA23699 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970124092557_1960040220@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: natural gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-23 19:47:34 EST, paul@jbc.edu (Paul Beam) writes: << This may stray a bit, but does anyone have any experience converting a small engine to run on natural gas? We want to take a gasoline powered AC generator and convert it. Any info on suppliers of parts would be appreciated. >> I am interested n doing the same thing (but after my current project). You may want to make a call the Amercian Gas Association in Arlington, Virginia and ask for a technical person. There also is a technical person at the Coalition for Natural Gas Vehicles that may be aable to help as well. There are also in Arlington, Va. I don't have their numbers with me but they can be found with directory assistance. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 16:50:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA21552; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:34:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21547; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:34:30 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d50.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.242]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15509 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:34:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:34:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701241634.KAA15509@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: GM buying from Electromotive?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This sounds consistent with other Electromotive users. GMD At 07:10 AM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >In digest 28 David Doddek speaks of the merits of Electromotive. And while >I'm glad your system is working well, your statements about GM buying direct >fire systems from Electromotive are completely false. All Grand National >direct fire systems from 1984 - 1987 are manufactured by Magnavox, and >consist of a "coil pack" of three coils molded together. GM DIS systems came >online, slowly, in 1986 on 3.8L SFI engines, other than the Grand National. >The GM DIS system eventually went on to be used on all of GM's DIS equipped >engines, displacing Magnavox. There was some early on development work >done between the two companies (Electromotive and GM), but nothing ever came >of it. As the years went by, the only thing Electromotive supplied GM with >was a bunch of pain in the ass, frivolous law suits. > > > John Spears > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 16:50:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA21543; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:31:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA21538; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:30:58 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d50.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.242]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15399 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:30:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:30:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701241630.KAA15399@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Test of Life Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi It's still kicking Peter. GMD At 12:35 PM 1/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all > >Is the old net still alive? > >I hope I didn't get excummunicated. > >Oh well till later: peter > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 17:36:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA21704; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:29:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA21699; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:29:15 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id KAA07761 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:17:23 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id KAA04570 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:29:13 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id KAA16538 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:37:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:37:10 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970124102835.093f6cde@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Traffic Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have not seen any traffic for 3 days. Is the list dead? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 18:57:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA22103; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:50:21 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Zeus.Token.Net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA22098; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:50:17 -0500 Received: (from jshapiro@localhost) by Zeus.Token.Net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA04578; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:44:29 -0500 (EST) From: Jody Shapiro Message-Id: <199701241844.NAA04578@Zeus.Token.Net> Subject: Large displacement engines & fuel economy To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:44:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: jshapiro@Zeus.Token.Net (Jody Shapiro) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to see what others thought about it: A common reason for going to larger displacement engine is for the gain in torque, particularly at low RPM, without having to sacrifice high-RPM power (by changing intake runner length). The downside is a drop in fuel economy at part/light throttle since you still have to "feed" the extra displacement. A good example is a 350" motor stroked to 383". You get all of the benefits of the extra 33" of displacement at WOT, but highway mileage will decrease now. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the drop in mileage is because you need to maintain the same A/F ratios that you would have maintained for the stock displacement motor. You can lean the mixture out as much as you like, but there's a limit to how lean you can go. The stock fuel maps will try to lean out the mixture as much as they can for a 350" motor. Since you now have a 383" motor, if you inject the same amount of fuel as you did for a 350" motor the mixture will be too lean since the motor will be sucking in more air into each cylinder now than it did before. Given that you can't lean out the mixture anymore, what is the best way to boost part/light throttle fuel economy? How about a system similar to Cadillac's on the NorthStar engine whereby they don't inject -any- fuel into some cylinders. The reason Cadillac does this is in the event of cooling system failure. Cylinders are starved of fuel in a preset order to allow them to just pump air in an effort to allow things to cool. This obviously has an adverse affect on power (I believe the NorthStar engine has problems going faster than 55mph or so when in this state). I don't know how frequently the Cadillac system cuts out cylinders, or how many it cuts out in a given firing sequence, but couldn't this idea be applied to a large displacement port-fuel injected motor? In other words, to conserve fuel, cut out a cylinder in every firing sequence (but make the cut-out cylinder a different one each time so no cylinder gets cut out twice in a row). I don't know what kind of effect this would have on RPM stability, or engine smoothness (hopefully not too bad), but is this a feasible alternative so that you can have your cake and eat it, too? You get all of the advantages of extra ci at WOT, and you don't have the gas guzzling at part throttle. Obviously, this is something that we can only do via a custom programmed EFI system (like EFI332), but would it work? Comments? -Jody -- http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 19:47:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA22201; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:40:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA22195; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:39:56 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:39:56 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC09F3.C00B9A20@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:40:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC09F3.C00B9A20@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'DIYEFI List'" Subject: Ford Ranger Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:40:14 -0700 Encoding: 37 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Some may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted a note regarding my mate who was having problems with his 1988 Ford Ranger. Brief synopsis: Engine occasionally stalled when coming to a stop after running. Happened no matter what the temp. Would not restart properly unless ignition was switched off then back on. He changed the following items without resolution: Ignition module Temp sensor Fuel/EEC relays After changing the temp sensor the symptoms changed, in that it now stalled occasionally whilst changing gear not when coming to a stop. Finally, he had the chance to pull over once it had happened and restart the engine without turning the ignition off (which caused it to run very badly with black smoke from the exhaust) and pull up the bonnet (hood for yanks:>). Pulling off the MAP sensor lead caused it to run ok, not brilliant but ok. Even allowed him to drive down to NAPA for a new MAP sensor. Now seems to be ok. That was only yesterday, but he seems confident that it's fixed. One question though: During all his testing, on one occasion he pulled off the TPS connector and drove for an hour without any significant problem. How can this be? Yes I can except that the ECU will choose a default value for a duff/missing sensor but for the TPS??? Anyway if you got this far - thanks for reading!!!! Peter S From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 24 23:51:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA22694; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:44:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA22689; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:44:37 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:44:30 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0A15.EAF66AE0@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:44:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC0A15.EAF66AE0@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Ford Ranger (repost) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:44:48 -0700 Encoding: 38 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Some may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted a note regarding my mate who was having problems with his 1988 Ford Ranger. Brief synopsis: Engine occasionally stalled when coming to a stop after running. Happened no matter what the temp. Would not restart properly unless ignition was switched off then back on. He changed the following items without resolution: Ignition module Temp sensor Fuel/EEC relays After changing the temp sensor the symptoms changed, in that it now stalled occasionally whilst changing gear not when coming to a stop. Finally, he had the chance to pull over once it had happened and restart the engine without turning the ignition off (which caused it to run very badly with black smoke from the exhaust) and pull up the bonnet (hood for yanks:>). Pulling off the MAP sensor lead caused it to run ok, not brilliant but ok. Even allowed him to drive down to NAPA for a new MAP sensor. Now seems to be ok. That was only yesterday, but he seems confident that it's fixed. One question though: During all his testing, on one occasion he pulled off the TPS connector and drove for an hour without any significant problem. How can this be? Yes I can except that the ECU will choose a default value for a duff/missing sensor but for the TPS??? Anyway if you got this far - thanks for reading!!!! Peter S From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 00:32:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA22773; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:27:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail2.deltanet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA22768; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:27:46 -0500 Received: from najay-pc.nb.rockwell.com (najay-pc.nb.rockwell.com [129.172.207.202]) by mail2.deltanet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA24772; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:32:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701250032.QAA24772@mail2.deltanet.com> From: "George Najarian" To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , "Jody Shapiro" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 13:09:51 -0800 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: George Najarian's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:44:29 -0500 (EST), Jody Shapiro wrote: >Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to >see what others thought about it: > >Given that you can't lean out the mixture anymore, what is the best way >to boost part/light throttle fuel economy? > >Comments? > >-Jody >-- EGR is used to dilute the mixture without changing the A/F ratio. Maybe increasing the amount of recycled exhaust might work. George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS E/SP (14.21/100.81) najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ Team.Net Team OS/2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 00:53:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA22820; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:46:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA22815; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:46:08 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d3.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.195]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA08278 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:45:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:45:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701250045.SAA08278@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 01:44 PM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to >see what others thought about it: > >I don't know how frequently the Cadillac system cuts out cylinders, or how >many it cuts out in a given firing sequence, but couldn't this idea be >applied to a large displacement port-fuel injected motor? In other words, >to conserve fuel, cut out a cylinder in every firing sequence (but make >the cut-out cylinder a different one each time so no cylinder gets cut out >twice in a row). > You still have the parastic loss of the dead cylinder still compressing the air within it. If you could stop the inlet and exhaust valves from opening, you could dramatically reduce the dead cylinder resistance. Some early caddys did just this. The system is remembered as junk. The Modulated Displacement Engine they called it. It did meet the objective of having good steady state fuel economy. >I don't know what kind of effect this would have on RPM stability, or >engine smoothness (hopefully not too bad), but is this a feasible >alternative so that you can have your cake and eat it, too? You get all >of the advantages of extra ci at WOT, and you don't have the gas guzzling >at part throttle. > >Obviously, this is something that we can only do via a custom programmed >EFI system (like EFI332), but would it work? > >Comments? > >-Jody >-- >http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ The best power/effiency setup would be a medium compression (9-1), medium displacement (3L), engine with a low boost (<8lbs/in2) intercooled turbocharger and an overdrive tranny. The higher compression ratio would give you good economy under (no to low) boost. Medium displacement would keep rotating mass at a minimum but not cause a power lag on the bottom end. The low boost intercooled turbo would provide the high torque. The tranny would be geared low for the first and second gears for performance. The overdrive would provide steady state economy. Boost and high comp go together like Cryps and Bloods. This will require low intercooled boost and water injection to controol detonation. My home built car will have a power trane that meets all of these specs. This is very doable and proven to work. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 05:54:55 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA23286; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:47:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA23281; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:47:37 -0500 Received: from SNOWCREST.NET.SNOWCRESRT.NET (ttyD35.redding.snowcrest.net [206.245.193.85]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA18720 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:47:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:47:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701250547.VAA18720@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Sender: javer96@snowcrest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Jennifer Rose Subject: Test Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All Test post- Haven't got any post last three days. Any still out there? Vance From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 08:58:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23595; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:52:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA23590; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:13 -0500 From: Tomchou@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id DAA19802 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970125035208_1926612683@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Factory vs aftermarket (Part2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >someone building a street engine. There are numerous tradeoffs >between maximum horsepower, maximum torque, and drivability. One >thing we must understand in all this is that GM is forced to build an >engine that meet CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), emission >controls, smooth idle, low to mid-range torque, and easy cruising at >(in '86) 55 mph. If the end users concerns lean toward one or more of >these criteria, there are aftermarket products that will satisfy their This is somewhat true. There are some aftermarket items that do work well when they target some compromise in the factory design; we are forced to make many compromises for the reasons you state. Most effective changes are the simple and logical ones, such as less restrictive exhausts (drive by noise level requirements force certain compromises) and less restrictive intake systems (again, noise levels are a concern.), or issues such as shift points and torque management to make transmissions and such survive the 100K mile durability cycle as warrenty costs are a major concern. However, the problem is that most aftermarket don't understand all the ramifications of changes they make. For instance, MAFs are particularly sensitive to turbulance, and the change to an open air element or ram air (besides the hazards of water intrusion) could alter it's calibration. Even if these things are understood, the aftermarket doesn't have the resources to correctly compensate for many things they do. This results in at best, slight irregularities in driveability, and most people that are into modifications probably overlook this issue, as "race cars" are supposed to drive rough. >needs. To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people >who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. Unfortunately, I've found this to be true more often than not. Many have really good intentions, but just don't have enough understanding of the issues and physical principles. >While it is true that the requirements of a particular engine may >vary, there are some parts that will increase horsepower and torque, >but were not placed on the original engine purely due to >economics...Headers, dual exhaust (with dual catalytic converters), >high flow air filters, high flow Mass Air Flow sensors, roller >lifters, and throttle body air foils are notable among these. Even >the calpak can be remapped for improved performances if done so to >accomodate a particular engine and driving conditions. These engines >(from the factory) are made for mass production. Plainly and simply, >they are designed so that the lowest common denominator is met. Again, this is partially true, but not completely. This is what every aftermarket vendor would love for everyone to believe, but don't buy into it hook, line and sinker! I'm not flaming the originator of this post at all, so please don't take it personally! I'm just expressing my opinion, and this post happened to be the one that opened the issues! I know very well there are many compromises the OEM makes, but I've yet to see an aftermarket company discover and optimize most *true* design compromises despite their hype to this effect! The beauty of this particular list is that everyone is more or less from a technical background, and are able to talk intelligently about these things. Many lists such as the general F body list (just picking on it - I stopped subscribing after too many "my car is faster than yours") do buy into the aftermarket's advertising wholeheartedly, but the folks on this list have the knowledge to really evaluate the validity of vendor's claims. Tom Chou - Tomchou@aol.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 08:58:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA23588; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:52:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA23583; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:06 -0500 From: Tomchou@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id DAA23595 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970125035204_1825951051@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Factory vs aftermarket (part1) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Subj: Factory vs aftermarket: was Valve train noise Date: 01/21/97 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Obviously my post was too long as it got kicked out the first time I sent it. Since list traffic is slow, I'll split it in 2 parts and get my .02 in! >>From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@tecinfo.com] >>Don't feel bad. After market parts can confuse even the most seasoned hot >>rodder. Some of the venders are liscened and bonded LIERS. Oh, it's not a >>total loss though, I've heard that the Electromotive ECMs make excellent and >>attractive door stops or paper weights:} >From: John Hess >This is what I mean by an instant expert. First of all, the very fact Hey - I haven't been on this particular list very long, but I don't believe George Dailey fits the term "instant expert" here! Actually, and I know I'm very biased here, but I consider _almost_ every aftermarket vendor I've met with a few exceptions to be "instant experts". Most have very little formal education in anything remotely resembling Automotive Engineering, or aerospace or electronics and have no technical experience working for any major automotive related company. Some of the better ones at least are master mechanics of some sort and have considerable practical experience in racing, etc. while others were probably shoe salesmen (no offense to them - just thinking of Al Bundy) who picked up a Bosch Handbook and are now giving all sorts of technical advice. (I'm not even remotely refering to anybody on this list as I haven't been on long enough!) I'm not saying you must have a degree or anything to know what you're talking about either, but most of these guys are really lacking in technical knowledge yet you'll think they were PhD's in fluid dynamics or combustion analysis from their claims. >that GM spent those millions dictated that they were obligated to >cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine >and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air >foils, ported plenums, opened up MAF do, in fact, increase horsepower >easily measurable on a dyno, 0-60 time, quarter mile, or even the seat >of ones pants. I agree that the GM MAF system is the way to go for I have considerable insight into this, and we've looked at many of these items. I don't trust any dyno data I've seen in the popular magazines - they're almost always performed at either the aftermarket manufacturers own dyno or some biased shop. There's just too many things you can do to get the numbers you want. In general, some of these products are based on a valid idea or principle but taken out of context or only beneficial under very specific conditions. For example, maybe airspeed needs to be near airplane velocities for some concept to work, or in the case of different ignition schemes, their ideas may be good for alcohol or nitromethane only, or for specific combustion chamber profiles/turbulances, etc. We've run many of these products on our extremely accurate/expensive dynos that no aftermarket could come close to affording, and found none to offer exactly what they claim or advertise. At best, some products have a measureable effect - usually detrimental, but if properly understood, given the proper conditions, I can see them being beneficial. When there are real measureable differences or benefits, it is not always due to the product under evaluation! What I mean is that the product has somehow altered certain parameters to give better performance under that condition, (i.e. made it richer/leaner or altered *delivered* spark timing (due to more capacitance or inductance on the secondaries) and when you gather proper data and determine exactly what change took place, you can remove that product, change those parameters via other means, and achieve identical results. Well, one might say, that proves that product worked. Well, ok - that's one way of looking at it, and probably the way the vendor wants it to be viewed, but the problem is this is usually only beneficial under that special condition, and not due to the reasons the vendor claims. Look at the aftermarket companies that are tightly connected to the Big 3, such as McLaren, Roush, Shelby to name a few. If you talk to their people, and look at what they do, you'll see they use very few of the usual popular aftermarket products out there. Most of their creations use very factory parts or custom ones they design for that specific application with complementary changes in software/calibration or other components to compensate any side effect. No "black magic" gimmicks such as air foils are used. Look at the totally factory backed high tech race teams in endurance racing, off road series, Indy Car/CART, Indy Lights - you don't see the same stuff being used as the popular auto mags such as Hot Rod, Car Craft and such advertise/evaluate. (Continued in part 2) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 14:36:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA24102; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:33:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA24097; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:33:45 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial52.voyager.net [207.74.103.52]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.4/CICNet) with SMTP id JAA07574; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:32:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32EA554F.1CBA@voyager.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:47:43 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jshapiro@Token.Net CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Fuel cut-out to conserve fuel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jody: You'll still have air entering the cylinder that will have to be compressed and that will take some energy. How much energy is the question. The other cylinders will have to compensate for the "dead wood" in the cycle by increased fuel consumption, I think. Dan From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 19:48:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA24573; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:43:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA24568; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:43:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.19) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:51:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32EA264D.6DB9@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:27:09 -0800 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: javer96@snowcrest.ne Subject: Re: Test References: <199701250547.VAA18720@mtshasta.snowcrest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jennifer Rose wrote: > > Hi All > > Test post- Haven't got any post last three days. Any still out there? Evidently the mail or disk problem that John had at Ohio State unsubscribed some of us! After no mail, I looked at the current archive, and could see posts that were not being delivered.... You may need to subscribe again. Check *first* by trying to unsubscribe the list (mine returned as not being subscribed!) Then if you are not subscribed, re-subscribe. Thanks, Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com You did that that majordomo note that John sends out the first of the month? ;-) From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 20:15:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA24624; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:12:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24619; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:12:52 -0500 From: Tomchou@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA09339 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:12:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:12:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970125151237_-2113167125@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: re: GM buying from Electromotive?? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >From: john spears >In digest 28 David Doddek speaks of the merits of Electromotive. And while >I'm glad your system is working well, your statements about GM buying direct >fire systems from Electromotive are completely false. All Grand National >direct fire systems from 1984 - 1987 are manufactured by Magnavox, and >consist of a "coil pack" of three coils molded together. GM DIS systems came >online, slowly, in 1986 on 3.8L SFI engines, other than the Grand National. >The GM DIS system eventually went on to be used on all of GM's DIS equipped >engines, displacing Magnavox. There was some early on development work >done between the two companies (Electromotive and GM), but nothing ever came >of it. As the years went by, the only thing Electromotive supplied GM with >was a bunch of pain in the ass, frivolous law suits. I can second John on this info - he definitely knows what he's talking about when it comes to GM ignition systems! ;^) To be more specific, his reference to GM DIS systems refers to those individual Delco Remy coil packs (1 for 2 cylinders) with the Delco Electronics ignition module which the wiring harness and coil packs attach to. Now just about all the Delcos have been combined under the Delphi name. In the mid 80's Magnavox and Delco were 2 competing suppliers, and it happened that Magnavox was chosen for the GNs while other 3.8L FWD cars had Delco, even though the Delco system have slightly more energy. The 2 are totally interchangeable except for mounting. In '88 with the introduction of the 3800 and a revised 18x/3x ignition system, the Magnavox 18x/3x system had a cold start problem, and they were eventually phased out - whether this was due to the cold start problem or just a business/non-technical decision I don't know. Be warned if you ever encounter a '88 vintage 3800 with the Magnavox system that won't start in cold weather! My neighbor ('88 Bonneville) just experienced this. I believe the platform/powertrain divisions of GM may have tried to do some early development work with Electromotive before going to Magnavox/Delco, but I know the Delco ignition engineers well and I know their work was totally original. I'm not certain, but the coils on the Electromotive DIS sure look like Delco Remys with the Electromotive label. I'll bet they're sourced from Remy (Delphi). I've never used the Electromotive DIS, and it probably works well, but I don't see why anyone would when you can get Magnavox/Delco DIS from any salvage yard for next to nothing. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 20:42:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA24680; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:40:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail2.deltanet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA24675; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:40:39 -0500 Received: from najay2-pc.nb.rockwell.com (anx-lkf0033.deltanet.com [204.178.202.33]) by mail2.deltanet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA11645 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:45:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701252045.MAA11645@mail2.deltanet.com> From: "George Najarian" To: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 12:27:58 -0800 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: George Najarian's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: PC based auto gauges Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A project I am working on requires simulated auto gauges (round, bar, etc. for rpm, mph , temp, etc.) for the display. Does anybody know where I can find libraries (source preferred) to do this? Thanks! George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS Cobra (14.21/100.81) najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ Team.Net Team OS/2 From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Jan 25 21:28:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA24757; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:26:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA24752; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:26:47 -0500 From: rwj5125@electriciti.com Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0voFhn-0006JsC; Sat, 25 Jan 97 13:32 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 13:32 PST X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) To: EFI digest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dear sirs, I will be converting my K5 Blazer with sb350 to TPI in a couple a months and have heard many different opions on which system is better. Between a MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system which would be the most desirable? Is one more reliable or offer a better ability to compensate for major elevation change(sea level-10,000+ft)? Why? Which system would you recomend? Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 01:20:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA24972; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:15:59 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA24967; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:15:56 -0500 Received: from warloch (p4s00.beaches.net [206.240.81.129]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA27832 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:15:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701260115.TAA27832@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Is the list down? Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:10:38 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Haven't gotten anything in a couple of days. We still up? John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 03:40:50 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA25117; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:38:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beavis.inetdirect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA25112; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:38:00 -0500 From: einstein@inetdirect.net Received: from default (p20-term4-ind.netdirect.net [204.248.210.129]) by beavis.inetdirect.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00280 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:37:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32EACF4C.783D@inetdirect.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:28:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: PC based auto gauges References: <199701252045.MAA11645@mail2.deltanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi George Najarian wrote: > > A project I am working on requires simulated auto gauges (round, bar, > etc. for rpm, mph , temp, etc.) for the display. Does anybody know > where I can find libraries (source preferred) to do this? Thanks! > George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS Cobra (14.21/100.81) > najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) > http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ > Team.Net Team OS/2 A friend of mine at university was working on a 'virtual' electric vehicle simulation which was written in Visual C++. He had a 'virtual' dash set up with round, bar and digital gauges. If you are interested I can find out more. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 04:14:04 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA25178; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 04:12:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA25173; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:12:26 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA21862; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:10:02 -0600 Message-ID: <32EAF6ED.3248@connect.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:17:17 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Is the list down? References: <199701260115.TAA27832@wave.beaches.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi John Faubion wrote: > > Haven't gotten anything in a couple of days. We still up? > > John Faubion > jfaubion@beaches.net Someone mentioned a tech problem with the server. I was (somehow) taken off of the list, too. Just resubscibe. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 04:16:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA25195; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 04:15:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA25190; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:15:38 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA21998; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:13:14 -0600 Message-ID: <32EAF7AE.1CDB@connect.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:20:30 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Leaded gas References: <199701252045.MAA11645@mail2.deltanet.com> <32EACF4C.783D@inetdirect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A question not necessarliy unrelated to EFI: Would todays automobiles be harmed by using leaded gasoline? I know that lead would ruin the O2 sensor, but other than that, what is the ramifications on parts like valves, seals, etc... Do racing type cars that use gasoline use leaded? Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 05:55:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA25356; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 05:52:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from elwood.probe.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA25351; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:52:36 -0500 Received: from pr1-0.probe.net (pr1-0.probe.net [206.29.242.1]) by elwood.probe.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA07249 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:52:34 -0600 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:52:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199701260552.XAA07249@elwood.probe.net> X-Sender: sparks@pop.probe.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: tom sparks Subject: Re: PC based auto gauges Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 10:28 1/25/1997 -0500, you wrote: >George Najarian wrote: >> >> A project I am working on requires simulated auto gauges (round, bar, >> etc. for rpm, mph , temp, etc.) for the display. Does anybody know >> where I can find libraries (source preferred) to do this? Thanks! >> George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS Cobra (14.21/100.81) >> najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) >> http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ >> Team.Net Team OS/2 > > >A friend of mine at university was working on a 'virtual' electric >vehicle simulation which was written in Visual C++. He had a 'virtual' >dash set up with round, bar and digital gauges. If you are interested I >can find out more. > > Microsoft Visual Basic has some gauge capabilities in the "Custom Controls" pulldown under the "Tools" menu. It's called the "MicroHelp Gauge Control." There is also a serial port access in Visual Basic if you use the "Microsoft Comm Control." These are all packaged with VB and are ready to use. They can be configured any way you want them. Best regards, Thomas Sparks "I'd love to grab your inner child by the neck and kick its little ass" From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 08:16:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA25592; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:12:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA25587; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:12:42 -0500 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (sparc.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.12]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca (8.7.6/1.14) with SMTP id AAA26427 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id AAA07330; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:12:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@sparc To: diy_efi cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Leaded gas In-Reply-To: <32EAF7AE.1CDB@connect.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Bill Moffitt wrote: > A question not necessarliy unrelated to EFI: > > Would todays automobiles be harmed by using leaded gasoline? > I know that lead would ruin the O2 sensor, but other than > that, what is the ramifications on parts like valves, seals, > etc... > > Do racing type cars that use gasoline use leaded? > I think the big problem with lead is that it destroys the catalytic converter. I don't understand the chemistry though. As for the race cars, the fuel I've seen at the drag strips is all leaded. cheers jw From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 16:54:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA26266; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:52:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA26261; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:52:04 -0500 Received: from gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu (greg@gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.214.240]) by gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA23811 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:47:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:47:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Gregory R. Travis" X-Sender: greg@gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu To: DIY_EFI Subject: Need Ford EFI numbers... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I DESPARATELY need BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption (lb. fuel/hp/hr)) numbers for the following engines: Ford Duratech 3.0L V6 (200HP @ 5750) (as in Taurus LX) Ford SHO 3.4L V8 (235HP @ 6000) (as in Taurus SHO) Northstar 4.6L V8 DOHC (300HP @ 6000) For each, a graph of BSFC vs. power output would be best but I would settle on raw BSFC numbers at, say, 70% power. That means 150 HP for the 3.0L, 165HP for the 3.4L, and 210HP for the 4.6L. If anyone knows or can point me to a source for how much fuel these engines require at those power outputs, I would be extremely grateful. The manufacturers seem to keep this stuff pretty close to the vest. I'm trying to determine how the Ford EFI system compares to others in high RPM/high HP conditions Thanks, greg travis greg greg@indiana.edu http://gtravis.ucs.indiana.edu/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 18:10:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA26535; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:08:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ryker.itech.cup.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA26530; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:08:53 -0500 Received: from 68.net2.nauticom.net by ryker.itech.cup.edu (5.65/1.35) id AA14993; Sun, 26 Jan 97 13:11:02 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970126175708.0066be14@ryker.itech.cup.edu> X-Sender: wbraden@ryker.itech.cup.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:57:08 -0500 To: diy_efi From: "Wade T. Braden" Subject: Re: Leaded gas Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:12 AM 1/26/97 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Bill Moffitt wrote: > >> A question not necessarliy unrelated to EFI: >> >> Would todays automobiles be harmed by using leaded gasoline? >> I know that lead would ruin the O2 sensor, but other than >> that, what is the ramifications on parts like valves, seals, >> etc... >> >> Do racing type cars that use gasoline use leaded? >> >I think the big problem with lead is that it destroys the catalytic >converter. I don't understand the chemistry though. As for the race >cars, the fuel I've seen at the drag strips is all leaded. > cheers >jw > It does not destroy the catalytic converter it plugs it up. And as for the racing fuel I believe that is how you get a very high octane. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Wade T. Braden Email: wbraden@ryker.itech.cup.edu 408 Burton Ave. Web: http://www.itech.cup.edu/~wbraden/ Washington, PA 15301 Major: Electrical Engineering Tecnology (412)222-8964 at California University of PA -=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 20:12:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA26758; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:09:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA26753; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:09:16 -0500 Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0voayM-0005Z2C; Sun, 26 Jan 97 12:14 PST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 12:14 PST X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) From: Mike Jones To: EFI digest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Dear sirs, I will be converting my K5 Blazer with sb350 to TPI in a couple a months and have heard many different opions on which system is better. Between a MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system which would be the most desirable? Is one better able to compensate for major elevation change(sea level-10,000+ft)? Why? Which system would you recomend for a basically stock engine w/headers & free-flowing exhaust? Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com PS Are my messages getting through? This is the fourth time I have posted this question with no response what so ever. If anyone on the list gets this post please let me know, even if you don't know the answer. From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 22:42:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA27089; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:39:03 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27084; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:38:59 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.13) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:45:51 -0500 Message-ID: <32EC06E1.BDF@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:37:37 -0800 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Blazer conversion to TPI References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike Jones wrote: > Between a MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or > '91) system which would be the most desirable? The cheaper one.... Whichever one you can get for less! > Is one better able to compensate for > major elevation change(sea level-10,000+ft)? Why? The MAF has no idea about baropress. The MAP does have a baro reset routine in it. So both can work for you. > Which system would you recomend for a basically stock engine w/headers > & free-flowing exhaust? The cheaper one! Personally, I like the MAP equipped one. I don't like the MAF hanging on the front. (And the ECMs are everywhere.) > PS > Are my messages getting through? This is the fourth time I have posted > this question with no response what so ever. Some may think you have not done your homework yet..... Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 22:57:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA27115; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:54:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bach.ccinet.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA27109; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:54:21 -0500 Received: by bach.ccinet.ab.ca; id PAA23094; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:50:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 15:59:29 PST From: Fred Zillinger Subject: MAP vs MAF altitude compensation To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes I have seen your post a couple of times. I've added a subject so more people might respond. As for your question, I am far from an expert and someone should add to this thread: The function of either the manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor combined with RPM information or the manifold air flow (MAF) sensor inherently compensates for altitude on any EFI system as it is the calculated volume of air flowing in manifold that matters. The fuel pressure regulator also is compensated for air pressure inherently as well. Altitude in any funtioning EFI system is not an issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred Zillinger industro-serve@ccinet.ab.ca Industro-Serve Inc. Work: 403-342-1125 #4, 7875-48th Avenue Home: 403-748-2560 Red Deer, Alberta Fax: 403-343-0030 Canada, T4P 2K1 http://www.instalog.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 23:06:27 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA27141; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:04:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA27136; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:04:03 -0500 Received: from ven-ca3-09.ix.netcom.com (fcmtb@ven-ca3-09.ix.netcom.com [207.92.176.73]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA24632 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:03:49 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:03:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199701262303.PAA24632@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Are my messages getting through? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Mike, Yes, your messages are getting through(at least to those still on the list). Not all questions get responces, you never know. Sometimes the most trivial things generate all sorts of trafic. Several of mine have gone unanswered. (not trivial IMO) As for your question regarding speed density versus maf for altitude changes, my only experience is with some aftermarket systems. With those, speed density doesn't cope too well if during the course of a drive you have a large change in elevation. Something with a seperate baro sensor would work much better. Maybe the oems have this I don't know. Fred At 12:14 PM 1/26/97 PST, you wrote: > > >Dear sirs, > >I will be converting my K5 Blazer with sb350 to TPI in a couple a months and >have heard many different opions on which system is better. Between a >MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system >which would be the most desirable? Is one better able to compensate for >major elevation change(sea level-10,000+ft)? Why? Which system would you >recomend for a basically stock engine w/headers & free-flowing exhaust? > >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > >PS >Are my messages getting through? This is the fourth time I have posted this >question with no response what so ever. If anyone on the list gets this post >please let me know, even if you don't know the answer. > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sun Jan 26 23:26:44 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA27199; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:23:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from serv01.net-link.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA27194; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:23:48 -0500 Received: from p8-9.net-link.net (p8-9 [207.49.229.49]) by serv01.net-link.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13854 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199701262325.SAA13854@serv01.net-link.net> X-Sender: mymove@serv01.net-link.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:45:12 -0800 To: diy_efi From: "William A. Sarkozy" Subject: Re: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 12:14 PM 1/26/97 PST, you wrote: > > >Dear sirs, > >I will be converting my K5 Blazer with sb350 to TPI in a couple a months and >have heard many different opions on which system is better. Between a >MAF('89 no cold start injector) based system and a MAP('90 or '91) system >which would be the most desirable? Is one better able to compensate for >major elevation change(sea level-10,000+ft)? Why? Which system would you >recomend for a basically stock engine w/headers & free-flowing exhaust? > >Mike Jones >rwj5125@electriciti.com > >PS >Are my messages getting through? This is the fourth time I have posted this >question with no response what so ever. If anyone on the list gets this post >please let me know, even if you don't know the answer. > >Yes, they're getting through. Everyone seems to be leaning toward MAP systems because of their simplicity. If you happen to salvage a COMPLETE MAF system on a good deal, then that's another story. I believe both work fine. My experience is with MAP and aftermarket computer and I'm very pleased. Good luck Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 00:12:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA27305; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:08:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beavis.inetdirect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA27300; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:08:25 -0500 Received: from default (p11-term3-ind.netdirect.net [204.248.210.100]) by beavis.inetdirect.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10139 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:08:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32EBEF6C.4972@inetdirect.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:58:30 -0500 From: Jeremy Edmondson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Leaded gas References: <1.5.4.32.19970126175708.0066be14@ryker.itech.cup.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Wade T. Braden wrote: > > At 12:12 AM 1/26/97 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > >On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Bill Moffitt wrote: > > > >> A question not necessarliy unrelated to EFI: > >> > >> Would todays automobiles be harmed by using leaded gasoline? > >> I know that lead would ruin the O2 sensor, but other than > >> that, what is the ramifications on parts like valves, seals, > >> etc... > >> > >> Do racing type cars that use gasoline use leaded? > >> > >I think the big problem with lead is that it destroys the catalytic > >converter. I don't understand the chemistry though. As for the race > >cars, the fuel I've seen at the drag strips is all leaded. > > cheers > >jw > > > > It does not destroy the catalytic converter it plugs it up. And as > for the racing fuel I believe that is how you get a very high octane. The lead deposits on the surfaces of the cat and it no longer functions. TEL is great stuff as far as your engine is concerned, it permits low grade gas to become a high octane fuel and lubricates valves and rings. Typically racing fuels contain vast amounts of TEL and so does aviation fuel. Unfortunatly lead has a bad reputation as far as health risks, unleaded gas with aromatics may well be a greater health risk. The difference is that there is more documented evidence of the effects of lead. There is a product available that adds a Sb-Sn catalyst to the fuel which replaces the reduction of flame speed function of TEL in far lower concentrations. The catalyst falls out of suspension quickly so must be added moments before use, ie in fuel line. Jeremy From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 01:36:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA27417; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:27:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from diversicomm.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA27412; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:27:46 -0500 From: rambo@diversicomm.com Received: from MHS by diversicomm.com with MHS id BDBJCIEK ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:26:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:25:40 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Looking for info. To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Greetings to all: I was concearned that there was no activity from the group. I thought I had been expelled. I had to go to the web page and look through the archives to catch up with the last week. I can not remember if the gentleman with the positive experience with E-motive left a name. However, dear Sir, God Bless You. You seem to be very lucky. I am not without skills to deal with problem people. But, when one will not listen to you it is difficult to communicate. I need suggestions as to what I may use for a TPI. I have pulled the Electormotive door stop off and need an ignition and injection unit. For all you Electromotive lovers out there...... Next week I will file suit against our freinds in VA. If any of you have useful intelligence regarding E-motive please E-mail me at Rambo@diversicomm.com .... Alternatively, if you ever wanted to ask a question of E-motive of its staff (that they had no choice but to answer) sent it in too. Also it has come to my attention that my education is lacking. I wish to aquire a better understanding of VE and AFR. Is there a publication such as "fuel injection for dummies"? If not any help would be most welcome. Cheers! Ray From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 10:04:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id JAA28219; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:59:11 GMT Return-Path: Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id EAA28214; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:59:08 -0500 Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vonvO-0006l6C; Mon, 27 Jan 97 02:04 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 02:04 PST X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: Annoyed From: Mike Jones To: EFI digest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi peter, >I suppose everyone is a bit tired. >This type of question has been going on for while Are you infering people are getting tired of me? Tired because I asked a question thats answer may be burried in the archive I never thought to look in? Excuse me! >You might comptemplate getting Mike Knells book. I bought the book the same day I learned of it's existance. I have read it cover-to-cover at least a dozen times. Nowhere in it does it discuss the question of MAP vs MAF it only states the differences. Which is why I asked here! >If you have any pertinent questions please ask. Ever heard the old saying: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION? I obviously felt the question pertinent or I would not have asked! When I sucribed to this list I understood it as being a professional and friendly enviroment to discuss the design, modification ect. of EFI. If my questions are better suited for another list...let me know. If I truely am wearing thin with the other members of the list I will unscribe. I am on this list to learn about GM TPI systems. Not to annoy it's members. I have made every effort to gain a working knowledge of fuel injection, but yes I am still ijnorant in comparison with most members of this list. Which is why I am here! I was hoping that throught my questions I would not only learn about TPI but also gain some friends. Mike Jones rwj5125@electriciti.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 13:37:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA28516; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:33:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA28507; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:33:20 -0500 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA10305 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:33:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:33:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970127083325_40281513@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi, Tomchou@aol.com Subject: Re: Factory vs aftermarket (part1) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-25 04:08:22 EST, Tomchou@aol.com writes: << Look at the aftermarket companies that are tightly connected to the Big 3, such as McLaren, Roush, Shelby to name a few. If you talk to their people, and look at what they do, you'll see they use very few of the usual popular aftermarket products out there. Most of their creations use very factory parts or custom ones they design for that specific application with complementary changes in software/calibration or other components to compensate any side effect. No "black magic" gimmicks such as air foils are used. Look at the totally factory backed high tech race teams in endurance racing, off road series, Indy Car/CART, Indy Lights - you don't see the same stuff being used as the popular auto mags such as Hot Rod, Car Craft and such advertise/evaluate. >> What do thry use to control and program ignition and fuel. And can mere mortals like me get access to them and perhaps buy them? From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 14:53:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA28711; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:51:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from bach.ccinet.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA28705; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:51:14 -0500 Received: by bach.ccinet.ab.ca; id HAA07913; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:47:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 08:13:17 PST From: Fred Zillinger Subject: RE: Annoyed To: diy_efi X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey Mike Don't let the pseudo experts get you down. I am sure that the real experts in this group are tolerant of any honest question; they know that they have alot more to learn and still remember how they started. This news group doesn't look too bad; if you want to see real unprofessional behavior take a look at the bottom feeders in some of the serious sci newsgroups. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred Zillinger industro-serve@ccinet.ab.ca Industro-Serve Inc. Work: 403-342-1125 #4, 7875-48th Avenue Home: 403-748-2560 Red Deer, Alberta Fax: 403-343-0030 Canada, T4P 2K1 http://www.instalog.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 16:58:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA28877; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:53:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from Zeus.Token.Net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA28872; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:53:41 -0500 Received: (from jshapiro@localhost) by Zeus.Token.Net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA21519; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:49:11 -0500 (EST) From: Jody Shapiro Message-Id: <199701271649.LAA21519@Zeus.Token.Net> Subject: Re: Fuel cut-out to conserve fuel To: ws6transam@voyager.net, diy_efi Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:49:11 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <32EA554F.1CBA@voyager.net> from "Daniel Burk" at Jan 25, 97 10:47:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > You'll still have air entering the cylinder that will have to be > compressed and that will take some energy. How much energy is the > question. The other cylinders will have to compensate for the "dead > wood" in the cycle by increased fuel consumption, I think. True, I hadn't really considered that to be a major energy loss. If nothing else, the air will be heated by the compression; makes we wonder how much cooling Cadillac actually gets out of running some cylinders with just air (and no fuel). However, wouldn't most of the energy lost to compression be regained on the power stroke as the compressed air now has the opportunity to expand and push slightly on the piston as it heads downward? -Jody -- http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 18:44:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA29238; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:34:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from beavis.inetdirect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA29233; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:34:38 -0500 Received: from gyro_gear_loos (p9-term6-ind.netdirect.net [204.248.210.158]) by beavis.inetdirect.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18428 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:34:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32ECF501.2FF6@inetdirect.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:33:37 -0500 From: Jeremy Edmondson Organization: XYZ X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel cut-out to conserve fuel References: <199701271649.LAA21519@Zeus.Token.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jody Shapiro wrote: > > > You'll still have air entering the cylinder that will have to be > > compressed and that will take some energy. How much energy is the > > question. The other cylinders will have to compensate for the "dead > > wood" in the cycle by increased fuel consumption, I think. > > True, I hadn't really considered that to be a major energy loss. If > nothing else, the air will be heated by the compression; makes we wonder > how much cooling Cadillac actually gets out of running some cylinders > with just air (and no fuel). > > However, wouldn't most of the energy lost to compression be regained > on the power stroke as the compressed air now has the opportunity to > expand and push slightly on the piston as it heads downward? > > -Jody > -- > http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ Adiabatic compression is reversable, look at a compression ignition engine, very low pumping losses. Cutting out cylinders is effective if it is not throttled, typically if cyliners are cut out by not injecting fuel the gains in efficency are small as this situation occurs at very small throttle openings and hence pumping losses are still significant. Ideally one wants to shut the valves completly which will cause pistion ring 'suck by' and oil will be consumed or the clyinder in question be unthrottled. Better still run engine extremly lean with stratified charge techniques such as Mitsubishi is doing. Jeremy From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 21:50:59 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA29548; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:44:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA29543; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:44:46 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA15540 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA25974 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:44:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:44:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970127163848.1c67b0e2@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Hello? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This is a test. I have not recieved msgs for several days now. Testing to see if the server is still up, or I was dropped from the list... (If everyone still sees this, plz respond to me privately (as I would have been dropped from the list)). SMD dubovsky@vt.edu From owner-diy_efi-archive Mon Jan 27 23:32:11 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA29822; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:26:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from vixa.voyager.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA29817; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:26:49 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (lnngdial90.voyager.net [207.74.103.90]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.4/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA12746 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:25:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32ED754A.409A@voyager.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:40:58 -0800 From: Daniel Burk Organization: 1984 Trans Am L69/WS6 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi CC: "diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: Fuel Injection for dummies References: <199701271000.KAA28233@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Also it has come to my attention that my education is lacking. I > wish to aquire a better understanding of VE and AFR. Is there a > publication such as "fuel injection for dummies"? If not any help > would be most welcome. > Ray, You're kidding, right? If you are not, then look for the book: "Fuel injection for dummies" ISBN 0-87938-743-2 Jeff Hartman, 1993 Motorbooks International Powerpro series. Sugg. Retail $19.95 Enjoy ;) -- Dan. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 02:30:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA00149; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:27:24 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA00144; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:27:20 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.20) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:35:16 -0500 Message-ID: <32ED7D86.4B62@clarityconnect.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:16:06 -0800 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Factory vs aftermarket (part1) References: <970125035204_1825951051@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tomchou@aol.com wrote: > > Subj: Factory vs aftermarket: was Valve train noise > Date: 01/21/97 > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Obviously my post was too long as it got kicked out the first time I > sent it. Since list traffic is slow, I'll split it in 2 parts and get > my .02 in! Hey Tom! Welcome to the list. I am always glad to see someone on the list that really knows what is going on. Thanks for coming over! Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 03:44:00 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA00271; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:43:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis.iul-ccs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00265; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:43:02 -0500 Received: from pme1-13.iul-ccs.com (pme1-13.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.46]) by atlantis.iul-ccs.com (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id UAA04069 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:41:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:41:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701280341.UAA04069@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: test Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Testing, testing 1,2,3. Is this thing on? just curious. haven't recieved squat off the list since last wednesday. wuzzup? regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 04:08:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA00327; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:08:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.xmission.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA00322; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:08:18 -0500 Received: from xmission.xmission.com (slc53.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.53]) by mail.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA06766 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:08:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701280408.VAA06766@mail.xmission.com> X-Sender: lndshrk@mail.xmission.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:07:56 -0700 To: DIY_EFI From: Land Shark Subject: Injector Sizes Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Looking for compiled lists of Bosch and Ford injector flow rates.. ALSO: Does ANYONE know the conversion between cc/min and lb/hr Jim PS: Will share what I have complied/glommed from various sources with anyone.. PPS: Should we put this on the web site?!? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 04:09:43 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA00343; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:09:37 GMT Return-Path: Received: from peach.newcastle.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA00337; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:09:34 -0500 Received: (from dchannon@localhost) by peach.newcastle.edu.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA25191; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:09:31 +1100 (EST) From: David Channon Message-Id: <199701280409.PAA25191@peach.newcastle.edu.au> Subject: Re: test To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:09:31 +1100 (EST) Cc: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com In-Reply-To: <199701280341.UAA04069@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> from "Darrell Norquay" at Jan 27, 97 08:41:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Got it - Just check you are still a member of the list. David. > > Testing, testing 1,2,3. > Is this thing on? > > just curious. > haven't recieved squat off the list since last wednesday. > wuzzup? > > regards > dn > dnorquay@iul-ccs.com > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 04:58:08 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA00438; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:57:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA00433; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:57:08 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA13714; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:54:41 -0600 Message-ID: <32EDA464.6CF8@connect.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:01:56 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Sizes References: <199701280408.VAA06766@mail.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I copied the following from: http://www.co.jyu.fi/~rax/suutin.htm I have a program that converts cc/min to gal/hr. I'll dig out the formula tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Moottori missä ko. suutinta Bosch numero Suihkutusmäärä mm. käytetään ------------------------------------------------------------------- 0 280 150 001 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 002 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 003 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 009 265 cm3/min 0 280 155 009 346 cm3/min Saab Turbo 0 280 150 015 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 024 380 cm3/min Volvo B30E 0 280 150 026 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 036 380 cm3/min MB 4.5l 0 280 150 041 480 cm3/min MB 6.9l V8 / Cadillac 0 280 150 043 380 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 100 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 121 178 cm3/min B 280 410 144 434 cm3/min Bosch R-SPORT 0 280 150 200 300 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 201 236 cm3/min 0 280 150 203 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 208 133 cm3/min 0 280 150 209 176 cm3/min Volvo B200-B230 0 280 150 211 146 cm3/min 0 280 150 335 300 cm3/min Volvo B230 turbo 0 280 150 400 437 cm3/min Ford 4.5l 0 280 150 401 437 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 402 338 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 403 503 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 614 189 cm3/min 0 280 150 704 170 cm3/min 0 280 150 706 214 cm3/min 250kPa 0 180 150 712 214 cm3/min 250kPa Saab Turbo 2.3l 0 280 150 715 149 cm3/min 0 280 150 716 134 cm3/min 0 280 150 762 214 cm3/min Volvo B230F 0 280 150 802 284 cm3/min Volvo B200 turbo, Renault J7R turbo 0 280 150 804 337 cm3/min Peugeot 505T 0 180 150 811 298 cm3/min 3.5kPa Porsche Turbo 944 0 280 150 814 384 cm3/min 0 280 150 834 397 cm3/min 0 280 150 835 397 cm3/min Chrysler 0 180 150 951 346 cm3/min Porsche Turbo ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 05:20:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA00499; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:19:19 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA00494; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:19:16 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA15026; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:16:50 -0600 Message-ID: <32EDA994.4BB0@connect.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:24:04 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Sizes References: <199701280408.VAA06766@mail.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > ALSO: Does ANYONE know the conversion between cc/min and lb/hr > > Jim > OK, here it is. There are 3785.644 cc's in a gallon. Turning this around, there is .000264155 gals in a cc. Turning CC's into gallons = Ncc's * .000264155gal ------------------- cc = N gals So now we have gals/min; to convert to gals/hr, just multiply by 60: Example: Bosch 0 280 150 209 = 176 cc/minute (176 * .000264155) * 60 (parenthesis added for illustration only) = flow rate = 2.78 gallons per hour Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 05:52:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA00554; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:49:06 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA00549; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:49:03 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p4.everett.net [205.134.193.100]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02609 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:44:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199701280644.WAA02609@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: "diy_efi" Subject: What's going on with the list??? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:46:54 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, I have received a gob of mail concerning list members getting dropped from the list. I got dropped myself, but was still getting the digests. From what I have heard from jsg, the drive got full or something like that, and now it looks as if it may have lost a little data. It was also giving cache ram parity errors, but jsg knows the real scoop on that. If anyone continues to get ejected from the list, please let me know about it and it will get investigated further. Otherwise, I would hope that it was just a one time event. I thought that it had gotten really quite lately. ;-) -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 06:17:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA00628; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:15:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA00623; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:15:30 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA18152; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:13:05 -0600 Message-ID: <32EDB6C3.1FED@connect.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:20:19 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Sizes References: <199701280408.VAA06766@mail.xmission.com> <32EDA994.4BB0@connect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > ALSO: Does ANYONE know the conversion between cc/min and lb/hr > > > > Jim > > > Whoa! I didn't look close enough at the question! My formula was from cc/min to gal/hr. Jim wanted cc/min to lb/hr. I guess the best way to do this is to take my gal/hr result and convert gal to lb. I'm not sure what the exact conversion is, but lets say a gallon of gas weighs 6 lbs. So, just multiply by 6. i.e 2.78 gal/hr * 6lb/gal = 16.68lb/hr. Sorry about that folks. It late and i'm going to bed. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 06:43:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA00692; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:42:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hot.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA00686; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:41:47 -0500 Received: from redelec (ppp9.hot.co.za [196.13.64.18]) by hot.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA00463 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:08:15 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:08:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199701280608.IAA00463@hot.co.za> X-Sender: redelec@hot.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: jon hanson Subject: Re: No mail from diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi to all sorry to take up bandwidth, but no diy_efi mail seems to be reaching South Africa, I've checked with another subscriber in Cape Town and he has the same problem. This is just a test message Jon Hanson Johannesburg South Africa. From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 07:04:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA00735; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 07:03:32 GMT Return-Path: Received: from jesaja.jkp.unisource.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA00730; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:03:29 -0500 Received: from jhg (pc_jhg.jkp.unisource.se [193.44.99.157]) by jesaja.jkp.unisource.se (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA13485 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:00:41 +0100 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970128070328.005fb1e8@pop.unisource.se> X-Sender: jhg@pop.unisource.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:03:28 +0100 To: diy_efi From: Jonas Hageberg Subject: Re: Hello? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Yes, I saw your message on the list. I think you where dropped from the list, I was last week, and had to resubscribe. I thought that was due to a malfunktioning mailserver (on my side) but now I realize that more people have been dropped. I think you have to resubscribe! /Jonas Hageberg At 16:44 1997-01-27 -0500, you wrote: > This is a test. I have not recieved msgs for several days now. Testing >to see if the server is still up, or I was dropped from the list... (If >everyone still sees this, plz respond to me privately (as I would have been >dropped from the list)). >SMD >dubovsky@vt.edu > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 13:49:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA01269; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:47:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA01264; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:47:47 -0500 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.40.135.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA18049; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:44:24 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ac03406; 28 Jan 97 13:49 WET Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 08:49 EST From: Nass Jeff To: diy efi Subject: Re: Injector Sizes Message-Id: <00970128134900/0004388719DC6EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi What is the rail pressure for this data? ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Moottori miss=E4 ko. suutinta Bosch numero Suihkutusm=E4=E4r=E4 mm. k=E4ytet=E4=E4n ------------------------------------------------------------------- 0 280 150 001 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 002 265 cm3/min 0 280 150 003 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 009 265 cm3/min 0 280 155 009 346 cm3/min Saab Turbo 0 280 150 015 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 024 380 cm3/min Volvo B30E 0 280 150 026 380 cm3/min 0 280 150 036 380 cm3/min MB 4.5l 0 280 150 041 480 cm3/min MB 6.9l V8 / Cadillac 0 280 150 043 380 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 100 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 121 178 cm3/min B 280 410 144 434 cm3/min Bosch R-SPORT 0 280 150 200 300 cm3/min BMW 0 280 150 201 236 cm3/min 0 280 150 203 185 cm3/min 0 280 150 208 133 cm3/min 0 280 150 209 176 cm3/min Volvo B200-B230 0 280 150 211 146 cm3/min 0 280 150 335 300 cm3/min Volvo B230 turbo 0 280 150 400 437 cm3/min Ford 4.5l 0 280 150 401 437 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 402 338 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 403 503 cm3/min Ford 0 280 150 614 189 cm3/min 0 280 150 704 170 cm3/min 0 280 150 706 214 cm3/min 250kPa 0 180 150 712 214 cm3/min 250kPa Saab Turbo 2.3l 0 280 150 715 149 cm3/min 0 280 150 716 134 cm3/min 0 280 150 762 214 cm3/min Volvo B230F 0 280 150 802 284 cm3/min Volvo B200 turbo, Renault J7R turbo 0 280 150 804 337 cm3/min Peugeot 505T 0 180 150 811 298 cm3/min 3.5kPa Porsche Turbo 944 0 280 150 814 384 cm3/min 0 280 150 834 397 cm3/min 0 280 150 835 397 cm3/min Chrysler 0 180 150 951 346 cm3/min Porsche Turbo ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 15:12:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA01666; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:10:31 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01661; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:10:27 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 1997 15:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 28 Jan 1997 15:10:26 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id JAA08498 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:10:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:10:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701281510.JAA08498@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: am I still on the list ? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I haven't gotten any mail from diy_efi in quite a while .... have I been booted off or is there nothing going on ?? Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 15:46:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA02045; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:45:54 GMT Return-Path: Received: from lithos by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA02009; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:43:37 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by lithos (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA07386 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:44:14 +0200 Received: from www.kapatel.gr(193.92.133.34) by lithos.kapatel.gr via smap (V1.3) id sma007384; Tue Jan 28 17:43:46 1997 Received: by www.kapatel.gr (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA08735; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:38:02 --200 Message-Id: <9701281538.AA08735@www.kapatel.gr> Received: from www.kapatel.gr(193.92.133.34) by www via smap (V1.3) id sma008731; Tue Jan 28 15:37:58 1997 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "George Theologitis" <193.92.133.34@[193.92.133.35]> To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:42:49 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: cc/min to lb/h Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) content-length: 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi cc/min * 0.0951018 = lb/h cc/min * 0.1902044 = hp/cylinder From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 16:05:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA02210; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:02:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hal-pc.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02205; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:02:34 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (pm2-112.hal-pc.org [206.66.129.112]) by hal-pc.org (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26173 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:02:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32EE3E8C.4CE7@hal-pc.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:59:40 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel injector sizes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This was derived from the MSD Fuel Management catalog: Gasoline density: 0.73 gms/cc .1736cc/sec = 1 lb/hr if I read my writing correctly They test injectors at 43.5 psi(3 bar) with a 10.4 ms pulse at 85% duty cycle. This would be useful if you want to test injectors yourself and get comparable results. Their catalog does have some useful information about this sort of thing and is available by calling (915)857-5200 (El Paso, Tx) From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 16:39:39 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA02465; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:35:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA02460; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:35:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199701281635.LAA02460@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA064849347; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:35:47 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Injector Sizes To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:35:47 EST In-Reply-To: <32EDA464.6CF8@connect.net>; from "Bill Moffitt" at Jan 27, 97 11:01 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > I copied the following from: http://www.co.jyu.fi/~rax/suutin.htm > > I have a program that converts cc/min to gal/hr. I'll dig out the > formula tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. > > Bill Good! I can add this info to the FI simulation WWW page. - Bruce From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 18:28:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA02882; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:17:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA02877; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:24 -0500 From: LotusM50@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA21315 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970128130530_617011005@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Fuel injector sizes Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-28 11:59:59 EST, rwhughe@hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes) writes: << This was derived from the MSD Fuel Management catalog: Gasoline density: 0.73 gms/cc >> Does this change with oxygenated and reformulated gasolines? From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 20:24:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA03625; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:19:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailsrv1.pcy.mci.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA03620; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:19:14 -0500 Received: from usr2-dialup25.mix2.Boston.mci.net (usr2-dialup25.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.0-7 #10044) id <01IER1Q3BQPS9FPSR1@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from usr2-dialup25.mix2.Boston.mci.net (usr2-dialup25.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.0-7 #10044) id <01IER1OPQCLM9FPUOZ@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:17:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:18:31 -0500 From: "steve.jacques" Subject: SDS FI Systems To: diy_efi Message-id: <01IER1OQVVAY9FPUOZ@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello, My name is Steve Jacques, and I am a member of the University of Massachussetts-Lowell's Formula SAE club. One of our ongoing projects as part of FSAE is to design, test, and manufacture a mini Formula car powered by no larger than a 610cc motorcycle engine. We have to design from the ground up... based on a per unit cost of $8500 for a 1000 unit production. We have selected Honda's CBR F2 600cc engine (normally aspirated) as our platform, and we have chosen to go with a multi-point FI system. We have a Simple Digital Systems FI unit, and I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this system? It was a donated system, with sparse documentation. We have documentation on the way, but I was curious to see if anyone has used this system successfully. Any comments would be appreciated. Also, does anyone know of any good publications on intake manifold design? Everything I've seen thus far has been very vague on the subject. Thanks in advance for your comments! Sorry for the long message! Sincerely, Steve Jacques UMass-Lowell FSAE From owner-diy_efi-archive Tue Jan 28 23:40:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA04035; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:32:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA04029; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:31:28 -0500 From: Tomchou@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA27702 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:31:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:31:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970128181100_1893555234@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: LotusM50@aol.com, diy_efi Subject: Re: Factory vs aftermarket (part1) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > << Look at the aftermarket companies that are tightly connected to the Big 3, > such as McLaren, Roush, Shelby to name a few. If you talk to their people, > and look at what they do, you'll see they use very few of the usual popular > aftermarket products out there. Most of their creations use very factory > parts or custom ones they design for that specific application with > complementary changes in software/calibration or other components to > compensate any side effect. No "black magic" gimmicks such as air foils > are used. Look at the totally factory backed high tech race teams in endurance > racing, off road series, Indy Car/CART, Indy Lights - you don't see the > same stuff being used as the popular auto mags such as Hot Rod, Car Craft and > such advertise/evaluate. >> > > What do thry use to control and program ignition and fuel. And can mere > mortals like me get access to them and perhaps buy them? In the case of IndyCar, the Aurora engines are using GM/Delco Motorsports controllers. Unfortunately, these are only available as a package with the powertrains, and not sold separately. The very limited volume coupled with the high expense of product support doesn't justify that sort of business for any large corporate environment. Remember not every customer would be as knowledgeable as folks on this list - you'll have lots of yahoos that are computer illiterate and understand minimal electronics. Price would be around $10K for the GenIV controllers, while the GenV like Team Penske uses is something around $40K. The GenV is complex enough to require a full time GM/Delco engineer to be present everytime the engine is fired. Depending on your application, unless you were in this league you don't require a Motorsports controller, as you're not trying to control up to 24 injectors independently and running 12,000 RPM - at that speed the throughput requires a really fast processor. Also, the Motorsports controllers are almost overkill on durability and robustness - since you're not running a $100K car with a millon dollar purse for winning (I assume) a standard controller tested to production vehicle requirements is probably sufficient. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 00:21:49 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA04094; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:19:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA04089; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:19:32 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 29 Jan 1997 00:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 29 Jan 1997 00:19:30 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id SAA29197 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:19:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:19:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701290019.SAA29197@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: am I still on the list ? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Hi Tom, som members were booted off due to a computer glitch. Simply >resubscribe. Thanks to all that wrote me .... I re-subscribed. Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 02:54:35 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA04435; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:49:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from fastlane.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA04430; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:49:18 -0500 Received: from fw-166-69.fastlane.net (fw-166-69.fastlane.net [207.55.166.69]) by fastlane.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17357 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:49:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701290249.UAA17357@fastlane.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jeffrey Engel" To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:04:22 +600 Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Quite interested! je jengel@fastlane.net > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:53 -0500 > From: Wen Yen Chan > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: diagnostic tool > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic > data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The > logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a > second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which > can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. > The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). > If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available > online. > > > Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 03:52:37 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA00508; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:51:47 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00503; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:51:43 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA12135; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:49:17 -0600 Message-ID: <32EEE68F.B79@connect.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:56:31 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Injector Sizes References: <199701280408.VAA06766@mail.xmission.com> <32EDA994.4BB0@connect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The second part to this was sent last night. It appears that this first part did not make it to the server (Johnny, thanks for your help in clearing this up). > > ALSO: Does ANYONE know the conversion between cc/min and lb/hr > > Jim > OK, here it is. There are 3785.644 cc's in a gallon. Turning this around, there is .000264155 gals in a cc. Turning CC's into gallons = Ncc's * .000264155gal ------------------- cc = N gals So now we have gals/min; to convert to gals/hr, just multiply by 60: Example: Bosch 0 280 150 209 = 176 cc/minute (176 * .000264155) * 60 (parenthesis added for illustration only) = flow rate = 2.78 gallons per hour I have attached the second part: Whoa! I didn't look close enough at the question! My formula was from cc/min to gal/hr. Jim wanted cc/min to lb/hr. I guess the best way to do this is to take my gal/hr result and convert gal to lb. I'm not sure what the exact conversion is, but lets say a gallon of gas weighs 6 lbs. So, just multiply by 6. i.e 2.78 gal/hr * 6lb/gal = 16.68lb/hr. Sorry about that folks. It late and i'm going to bed. Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 03:53:25 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA00533; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:53:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from connect.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA00527; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:53:06 -0500 Received: from triad.connect.net by connect.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA12232; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:50:38 -0600 Message-ID: <32EEE6E0.2742@connect.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:57:52 -0800 From: Bill Moffitt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: diagnostic tool References: <199701290249.UAA17357@fastlane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Jeffrey Engel wrote: > > Quite interested! > > je > jengel@fastlane.net > > > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:53 -0500 > > From: Wen Yen Chan > > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: diagnostic tool > > Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic > > data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The > > logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a > > second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which > > can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. > > The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). > > If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available > > online. > > > > > > Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca > > > > I'd like to take a look at it too :) Bill From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 04:59:52 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA00546; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:58:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wagner.mtco.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA00541; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:58:40 -0500 Received: from 172-86-144.ipt.aol.com by wagner.mtco.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/28Jan97-0434PM) id AA25080; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:01:36 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:01:36 -0600 Message-Id: <9701290501.AA25080@wagner.mtco.com> X-Sender: pantera@mail.mtco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: pantera@pobox.com (David Doddek) Subject: why did I stop receiving posts Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sorry for the non EFI issue, But I wonder why I have stopped receiving posts from the list. Have I been dropped from the list. IF so why? Would the keeper of the list please reply to : pantera@pobox.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 06:13:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA01444; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:12:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id BAA01432; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:12:02 -0500 From: MaxBoost@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA05222; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:12:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:12:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970129001147_817617510@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi, DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Injector Sizes Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Looking for compiled lists of Bosch and Ford injector >flow rates.. >ALSO: Does ANYONE know the conversion between cc/min and lb/hr I have always multiplied by 10.765 and it seems pretty close. Max From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 06:27:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA01675; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:20:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA01663; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:20:28 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p5.everett.net [205.134.193.101]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA01513 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:16:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199701290716.XAA01513@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: Subject: Re: why did I stop receiving posts Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:18:11 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The file system on the server was apparently corrupted far more than I realized. It has been repaired by jsg and I have resubscribed everyone that was on the list as of 12/22/96. I think a total of almost 200 people were affected. 95% of those should be ok now. The other 5% have been lost forever... uh, until they resubscribe themselves that is. -j- ---------- > From: David Doddek > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: why did I stop receiving posts > Date: Tuesday, January 28, 1997 9:01 PM > > Sorry for the non EFI issue, But I wonder why I have stopped receiving posts > from the list. Have I been dropped from the list. IF so why? Would the > keeper of the list please reply to : > > pantera@pobox.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 07:46:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA02371; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:40:41 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ridgecrest.ca.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA02366; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:40:38 -0500 Received: from annex095.ridgecrest.ca.us (annex095 [199.120.150.105]) by ridgecrest.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8-custom) with SMTP id XAA24124 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:39:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:39:03 -0800 (PST) Posted-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:39:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701290739.XAA24124@ridgecrest.ca.us> X-Sender: sam2@ridgecrest.ca.us Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: sam2@ridgecrest.ca.us (sam tuey) Subject: Re: why did I stop receiving posts X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >The file system on the server was apparently corrupted far more than I >realized. It has been repaired by jsg and I have resubscribed everyone that >was on the list as of 12/22/96. I think a total of almost 200 people were >affected. 95% of those should be ok now. The other 5% have been lost >forever... uh, until they resubscribe themselves that is. > >-j- > >---------- Please keep the messages coming! From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 11:45:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id LAA02890; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:33:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from palrel1.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA02885; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:33:48 -0500 Received: from hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com (hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com [15.128.129.112]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16345 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder.grenoble.hp.com by hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA027057433; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:30:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199701291130.AA027057433@hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com> To: diy_efi Cc: Don_Irwin@grenoble.hp.com Subject: Bosch Motronic problem Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 12:30:33 +0100 From: Don Irwin Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Can I call on the massed wisdom of digesters for help with a problem I have on an Alfa Romeo 90 (Alfetta with different body). The engine is a 4-cyl 2 ltr with Bosch Motronic engine managment. Car had low compression and was difficult to start and not v. performant. Changing piston rings without any difficulty but since then it will not run for more than a couple of seconds. Starts well but quickly dies - as it does so I hear the Air Flow Meter (AFM) flap dropping back and the fuel pump cutting out. The AFM has been checked by a Bosch agent - he says its ok . The ECU can only be tested on the car and Bosch say it rarely fails. As its not running cannot get it to a garage ! The temp sensor (adjacent to the injectors) is ok (say Bosch ) altho if I disconnect this the car will run (unevenly) for ~ 30 secs before cutting out . When cranking the engine all injectors deliver fuel . All the Bosch manuals describe a cold-start injector - there is none on this model - simply 1 injector per cyl. They also describe an O2 sensor (on the exhaust) - again none on this model - I assume the feedback from this is statically emulated from the ECU. The other sensors(2) I find on the engine were also on a carb-equipped Alfa GTV I once had so I don't think these are realetd to the problem I am experiencing. Any help is appreciated. Don Irwin __________________________________________________________________________ | | | Don Irwin E-Mail: Don_Irwin@grenoble.hp.com | | TNO B1 N2 C1 - box 13 | | Hewlett-Packard France | | 5 av R. Chanas - Eybens Telephone: +33 (0)476 14 1774 (Telnet 779-1774)| | 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 Fax: +33 (0)476 14 1686 | |__________________________________________________________________________| From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 13:25:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03123; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:18:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ryker.itech.cup.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03118; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:18:55 -0500 Received: from 71.net2.nauticom.net by ryker.itech.cup.edu (5.65/1.35) id AA25817; Wed, 29 Jan 97 08:18:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970129130645.0067e310@ryker.itech.cup.edu> X-Sender: wbraden@ryker.itech.cup.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:06:45 -0500 To: diy_efi From: "Wade T. Braden" Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:04 PM 1/28/97 +600, you wrote: >Quite interested! > >je >jengel@fastlane.net > > >> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:53 -0500 >> From: Wen Yen Chan >> To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: diagnostic tool >> Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic >> data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The >> logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a >> second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which >> can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. >> The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). >> If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available >> online. >> >> >> Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca >> >> I definately am interested in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Wade T. Braden Email: wbraden@ryker.itech.cup.edu 408 Burton Ave. Web: http://www.itech.cup.edu/~wbraden/ Washington, PA 15301 Major: Electrical Engineering Tecnology (412)222-8964 at California University of PA -=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 13:40:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03156; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:35:07 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03151; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:35:05 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 29 Jan 1997 13:35:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 29 Jan 1997 13:35:03 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id HAA00298 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:35:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:35:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701291335.HAA00298@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I'd like to see what you've done > I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic > data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The > logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a > second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which > can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. > The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). > If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available > online. > > > Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 13:54:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA03192; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:52:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA03187; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:52:01 -0500 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9a for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1997Jan29.075023.1724.194054; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:51:49 -0500 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi Message-ID: <1997Jan29.075023.1724.194054@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:51:49 -0500 Subject: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never received any replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again.... >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked one of these?<<< From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 14:55:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA03406; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:47:40 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gaia.imes.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA03398; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:47:37 -0500 Received: from sun4c409.imes.com by gaia.imes.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01614; Wed, 29 Jan 97 06:52:02 PST Received: from auspc149.imes.com by sun4c409.imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA25494; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970129084431.006856c0@sun4c409> X-Sender: steve@sun4c409 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:44:34 -0600 To: diy_efi From: Steve Ravet Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:04 PM 1/28/97 +600, you wrote: >Quite interested! > >je >jengel@fastlane.net > Ditto. I'd like to see them. If nothing else, I'm sure Johnny would be willing to post schematics/whatever on the diy-efi WWW site. --steve > >> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:50:53 -0500 >> From: Wen Yen Chan >> To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: diagnostic tool >> Reply-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic >> data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The >> logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a >> second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which >> can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. >> The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). >> If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available >> online. >> >> >> Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca >> >> > -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems steve@imes.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 15:04:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA03476; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:58:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA03471; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:58:19 -0500 Received: from ts2-port-23.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.200.105) by ds1.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ470659; Wed Jan 29 07:56:05 1997 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:59:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jens Stobernack To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS X-Sender: jstobern@ds6.acs.ucalgary.ca In-Reply-To: <1997Jan29.075023.1724.194054@smtpgw.kemet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote: > > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never received any > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again.... > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked > one of these?<<< > I can only speak from VW experience. There is a toothed wheel on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part of the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice you can engage it. Hope this helps, Jens From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 15:39:06 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA03608; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:26:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mh004.infi.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03603; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:26:48 -0500 Received: from vesper by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id KAA10832; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:27:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970129152700.009b5fd0@infi.net> X-Sender: sldbrass@infi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:27:00 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: Tuck Subject: Intercoolers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi There was some discussion a few days (weeks?) ago regarding the pairing of intercoolers and the relative advantages of running them in parallel or series. I may be adding forced induction to my 87 RX-7 in the somewhat near future, and I am intending to use the fairly small intercooler from the third generation RX-7 becuase it will fit into the space in front of the radiator with minimum cutting. Of course the unit is small enough that I could fit a pair of them in series of stack them in parallel (and I can get one or two for free), so I'm interested in everone's aopinion on which I should do if I go to the (non-sequential twin turbo) forced induction setup. Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> She fills my days with Dark Nights. I like the way you wear your grin, I even like the feel of my will caving in... From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 15:54:09 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA03784; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:45:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns1.aspenres.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA03779; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:45:07 -0500 Received: from dhcp17.aspenres.com (204.131.50.80) by mx1.aspenres.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:45:03 -0700 Received: by dhcp17.aspenres.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0DC0.B647EC20@dhcp17.aspenres.com>; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:45:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC0DC0.B647EC20@dhcp17.aspenres.com> From: Peter Shoebridge To: "'DIYEFI List'" Subject: Ford Ranger Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:44:52 -0700 Encoding: 39 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Some may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted a note regarding my mate who was having problems with his 1988 Ford Ranger. Brief synopsis: Engine occasionally stalled when coming to a stop after running. Happened no matter what the temp. Would not restart properly unless ignition was switched off then back on. He changed the following items without resolution: Ignition module Temp sensor Fuel/EEC relays After changing the temp sensor the symptoms changed, in that it now stalled occasionally whilst changing gear not when coming to a stop. Finally, he had the chance to pull over once it had happened and restart the engine without turning the ignition off (which caused it to run very badly with black smoke from the exhaust) and pull up the bonnet (hood for yanks:>). Pulling off the MAP sensor lead caused it to run ok, not brilliant but ok. Even allowed him to drive down to NAPA for a new MAP sensor. Now seems to be ok. That was only yesterday, but he seems confident that it's fixed. One question though: During all his testing, on one occasion he pulled off the TPS connector and drove for an hour without any significant problem. How can this be? Yes I can except that the ECU will choose a default value for a duff/missing sensor but for the TPS??? Anyway if you got this far - thanks for reading!!!! Peter S From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:14:51 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04175; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:06:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04169; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:06:20 -0500 Received: (from jsg@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA10358 for diy_efi@coulomb; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:06:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:06:19 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Message-Id: <199701291606.LAA10358@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Subject: [admin] lost subscribers on diy_efi... Approved: tpi350 From: jsg@esl A corrupt file system has resulted in the loss of some of the diy_efi subscribers (maybe 1/4 of them :( ). If you run across anyone who is wondering what happened, just tell them to re-subscribe. Johnny is also trying to resubscribe individuals based on an older copy of the list file. It may take another day for things to settle down. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@osu.edu __________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:15:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04132; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:05:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04127; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:05:18 -0500 From: DJohn77284@aol.com Received: by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05407 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:05:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: <970129110504_1379516072@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 29/01/97 13:54:40, you write: << > I have just finished designing and constructing a multi-chan. electronic > data logger which might be useful for field testing EFI systems. The > logger has eight analog inputs which it samples between 3 and 250 times a > second (user set rate). The acquired data is stored in a 128k SRAM which > can be later read by plugging the unit into the parallel port of a PC. > The parts needed to build the unit total to less than $40 cnd. ($30 US). > If there is any interest in the designs I will try to make them available > online. > > > Wen chanwe@ecf.utoronto.ca >> I'd be interested in seeing what you've done.... Dave Johnson From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:22:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04355; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:15:25 GMT Return-Path: Received: from hal-pc.org by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04350; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:15:22 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (pm2-96.hal-pc.org [206.66.129.96]) by hal-pc.org (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09907 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:15:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32EF930A.344@hal-pc.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:12:26 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: diagnostic tool Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I would also like to see this. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:39:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04501; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:25:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mule1.mindspring.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04496; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:25:20 -0500 Received: from sn (user-37kb60b.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.152.11]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA15776 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:25:17 -0500 Message-ID: <32EF32DC.7AA3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:22:04 +0000 From: David Kraft X-Sender: David Kraft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS X-Priority: Normal References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------F59655222120" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------------F59655222120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My Grand Cherokee has toothed wheels, with a proximity sensor(like the vw, and every other ABS I have seen.) It is interesting that I have had it axle deep in soft silt clay, and the ABS wouldn't malfunction. It is a pretty neat experience having some smidgen of control on super slick mud... The shop manual says that the ABS stops functioning below 3 mph, which I can verify from a hard brake on dry pavement from 30 mph. Because the beast is so heavy, the wheels will lock up when the ABS stops compensating in the last 2 feet or so, and you get a nice chirp from two or three of the wheels. I can't think of a reason to hack it, except to turn it into positive traction control. Regards, D. Jens Stobernack wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote: > > > > > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never received any > > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again.... > > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS > > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know > > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked > > one of these?<<< > > > > I can only speak from VW experience. There is a toothed wheel > on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive > pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part of > the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice you > can engage it. > > Hope this helps, > Jens ------------F59655222120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
My  Grand Cherokee has toothed wheels, with a proximity sensor(like the vw, and every other ABS I have seen.)
It is interesting that I have had it axle deep in soft silt clay, and the ABS wouldn't malfunction. It is a pretty neat experience having some smidgen of control on super slick mud...
The shop manual says that the ABS stops functioning below 3 mph, which I can verify from a hard brake on dry pavement from 30 mph.
Because the beast is so heavy, the wheels will lock up when the ABS stops compensating in the last 2 feet or so, and you get a nice chirp from two or three of the wheels.
 
I can't think of a reason to hack it, except to turn it into positive traction control.
 
 
 
Regards, 
D.
 
 
 
Jens Stobernack wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote:

> >
> > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never received any
> > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again....
> > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS
> > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know
> > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked
> > one of these?<<<
> >

>         I can only speak from VW experience. There is a toothed wheel
> on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive
> pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part of
> the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice you
> can engage it.

> Hope this helps,
> Jens
 
------------F59655222120-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:40:38 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04544; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:33:23 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04539; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:33:21 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id KAA14174; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:32:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma014155; Wed, 29 Jan 97 10:32:27 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0DD0.10BAFDA0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:34:54 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Jens Stobernack'" Subject: RE: ABS Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:34:26 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------- From: Jens Stobernack[SMTP:jstobern@acs.ucalgary.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 10:00 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ABS On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote: > > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never received any > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again.... > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does Bosch ABS > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does anyone know > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked > one of these?<<< > I can only speak from VW experience. There is a toothed wheel on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part of the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice you can engage it. Hope this helps, Jens Unfortunately, on very slick surfaces such as icd, all four wheels lock up at once. Generally the ABS systems work on a speed differential algorithm. If a wheel is going appreciably slower than another (the others), then that wheel is considered locked and the brake system is modulated. If all four are locked at the same time (at least at very slow vehicle speeds), the system sees the vehicle as stopped and is not activated. This is why ABS is generally found to be ineffective on ice. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 16:54:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA04662; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:45:43 GMT Return-Path: Received: from www.edag.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA04657; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:45:39 -0500 Received: from gate.edag.de(really [130.11.1.9]) by www.edag.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:46:01 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2.0.90 1996-Dec-4 #8 built 1997-Jan-7) Received: from informatik.ee.edag.de by gate.edag.de with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0vpd3g-001kAbC; Wed, 29 Jan 97 17:40 MET Received: from INFORMATIK/SpoolDir by informatik.ee.edag.de (Mercury 1.21); 29 Jan 97 17:45:15 MET Received: from SpoolDir by INFORMATIK (Mercury 1.30); 29 Jan 97 17:45:11 MET Received: from haluta-II by informatik.ee.edag.de (Mercury 1.30); 29 Jan 97 17:45:04 MET Message-ID: <32EF7E9B.58962820@informatik.ee.edag.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:45:15 +0100 From: Peter Katzmann Organization: EDAG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.28 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Wrong adress in List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello, i'm twice since yesterday on the list. The correct adress is pet@informatik.ee.edag.de . This is still working. But also now are mails to Rpet@informatik.ee.edag.de, which is definitely wrong. Please could you remove this wrong entry. With thanks in advance p. katzmann From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 18:29:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA05386; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:24:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ux8.cso.uiuc.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05381; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:24:46 -0500 Received: (from ssdavis1@localhost) by ux8.cso.uiuc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23841; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:24:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:24:31 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Davis X-Sender: ssdavis1@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu To: diy_efi cc: Don_Irwin@grenoble.hp.com Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic problem In-Reply-To: <199701291130.AA027057433@hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Make sure that the idle solenoid is connected. =) > Can I call on the massed wisdom of digesters for help with a problem I have on > an Alfa Romeo 90 (Alfetta with different body). The engine is a 4-cyl 2 ltr > with Bosch Motronic engine managment. Scott From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 18:30:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA05524; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:29:55 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA05519; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:29:52 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id LAA01165 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:18:51 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id LAA12803 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:29:50 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id LAA26082 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:47 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:47 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970129112910.090fddaa@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've seen pictures of a toothed wheel on the ring gear in the rear diff. I believe this is for ABS. me At 11:22 AM 1/29/97 +0000, you wrote: >My Grand Cherokee has toothed wheels, with a proximity sensor(like the >vw, and every other ABS I have seen.) >It is interesting that I have had it axle deep in soft silt clay, and >the ABS wouldn't malfunction. It is a pretty neat experience having some >smidgen of control on super slick mud... >The shop manual says that the ABS stops functioning below 3 mph, which >I can verify from a hard brake on dry pavement from 30 mph. >Because the beast is so heavy, the wheels will lock up when the ABS >stops compensating in the last 2 feet or so, and you get a nice chirp >from two or three of the wheels. > >I can't think of a reason to hack it, except to turn it into positive >traction control. > > > >Regards, >D. > > > >Jens Stobernack wrote: >> >> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote: >> >> > >> > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never >received any >> > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again.... >> > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type of sensor does >Bosch ABS >> > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does >anyone know >> > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked >> > one of these?<<< >> > >> >> I can only speak from VW experience. There is a toothed wheel >> on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive >> pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part of >> the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice you >> can engage it. >> >> Hope this helps, >> Jens > > > >
My  Grand Cherokee has toothed wheels, with a proximity sensor(like >the vw, and every other ABS I have seen.)
> >
It is interesting that I have had it axle deep in soft silt clay, >and the ABS wouldn't malfunction. It is a pretty neat experience having >some smidgen of control on super slick mud...
> >
The shop manual says that the ABS stops functioning below 3 mph, which >I can verify from a hard brake on dry pavement from 30 mph.
> >
Because the beast is so heavy, the wheels will lock up when the ABS >stops compensating in the last 2 feet or so, and you get a nice chirp from >two or three of the wheels.
> >
 
> >
I can't think of a reason to hack it, except to turn it into positive >traction control.
> >
 
> >
 
> >
 
> >
Regards, 
> >
D.
> >
 
> >
 
> >
 
> >
Jens Stobernack wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mike Turner wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> > I was one of the people affected by the server glitch and never >received any
>> > replies (maybe there were none.....), so I'm going to ask again....
>> > >>>I know this is an EFI group but ...... What type >of sensor does Bosch ABS
>> > use for rotation? Hall effect? Proximity? Something else? Does >anyone know
>> > what the minimum speed for ABS to be engaged is? Has anyone hacked
>> > one of these?<<<
>> >
>> 
>>         I can only speak from >VW experience. There is a toothed wheel
>> on the brake hub of each wheel. It spins with the wheel. An inductive
>> pickup sensor seats mm from the wheel, connected to a static part >of
>> the car. I think the ABS is always on. Even at slow speeds on ice >you
>> can engage it.
>> 
>> Hope this helps,
>> Jens
> > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 19:42:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA05946; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:39:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from OASIS.CALPOLY.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA05941; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:39:31 -0500 Received: from OASIS.CALPOLY.EDU by OASIS.CALPOLY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8628; Wed, 29 Jan 97 11:37:21 PST Message-Id: <19970129.113721.DI706@CALPOLY> Date: 29 Jan 97 11:37:20 PST From: To: Subject: Uncl: Wrong adress in List In-Reply-To: note of Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:45:15 +0100 from Peter Katzmann Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi From: Lynn Mosher, Industrial Technology, Cal Poly I have been trying to get removed from the list for months without success. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 20:12:18 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06057; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:05:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06052; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:05:25 -0500 From: kleenair@ix.netcom.com Received: from mar-wv3-18.ix.netcom.com (kleenair@mar-wv3-18.ix.netcom.com [206.217.114.82]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA23462 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:05:18 -0800 Message-ID: <32EFD02C.216B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:33:16 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Solenoid References: <1.5.4.32.19970129130645.0067e310@ryker.itech.cup.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, Can anyone tell me the formula for calculating the pull force of a solenoid based on number of coil turns, wire size, voltage, resistance, coil height, coil diameter, plunger material permiability, etc.? Thanks, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 20:26:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA06106; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:23:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA06101; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:23:10 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id NAA05813 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:12:12 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id NAA13739 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:23:08 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id NAA28159 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:31:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:31:05 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970129132230.090fa20a@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: Fuel line connectors Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi That is exactly what I did. It works just fine. In fact I found a fuel line from the same car at a junk yard and installed it in parallel with the original for the return. I added a return to the fuel sending unit wtih an old part from another sending unit by drilling a hole and sealing it with JB Weld. me At 02:51 PM 1/20/97 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, William A. Sarkozy wrote: > >> Accel (Cleveland, OH) sells a variety of SAGINAW fuel line fittings which >> emulate those used on GM cars. They are complete w/ O-ring seat and accept >> an 8AN hose fitting on the other side. Some even have hose barbs if you >> elect not to use braided hose. >> Their phone is (216) 398-8300 or http://www.mrgasket.com >> >> Cheers >> >> Bill >> >> >Question. What if I want to use the existing steel fuel line that runs >from the tank to the engine. I will install a pump close to the tank but >can the existing steel line be flared (like a brake line) to accomodate a >threaded fitting. If not then I could use it as a return line and buy >steel braided to run the length of the car. >I think the steel line there now is 3/8. > >Thanks to all >jw > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 21:39:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA06421; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:29:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from monk.austin.cc.tx.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA06416; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:29:53 -0500 Received: from acc.austin.cc.tx.us (monk.austin.cc.tx.us [198.213.3.11]) by monk.austin.cc.tx.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA03648 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:29:55 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:29:04 -0600 (CST) From: Madelon Umlauf To: DIY_EFI Subject: permissible topics on DIY_EFI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does EFI include M/C solenoids in carburated engines? I have a real goofy project which I just can't stop thinking about (involving a Geo Metro [Suzuki] 1 liter 3 banger). I have put this daydream (nightmare?) up on the Net. Check it out if you have some time to waste: http://www.texaslink.com/eisenstadt/index.htm TIA Mike Eisenstadt, husband of madelon@austin.cc.tx.us From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 22:27:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA06934; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:21:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA06929; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:16 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA18246 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu (pc2.vpec.ee.vt.edu [128.173.88.179]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA14734 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970129171507.1c37cc2a@mail.vt.edu> X-Sender: dubovsky@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Stephen Dubovsky Subject: Re: Solenoid Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 02:33 PM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > > >Can anyone tell me the formula for calculating the pull force of a >solenoid based on number of coil turns, wire size, voltage, resistance, >coil height, coil diameter, plunger material permiability, etc.? > >Thanks, Mazda > Ok, we work in power electronics building inductors (for electric cars and stuff) so magnetics is sort of our specialty (well, kinda). The quick and dirty answer is that there isn't one, so here is magnetics 0.101: 1) field strength will be proportional to number of turns (N) and current (I). So, double the N and you can cut I in half to get the same field (or double both to get 4x the field). 2) The force will be proportional to field strength. 3) voltage and resistance have little to do with it (except I=V/R in the DC case). 4) Coil height and diameter have very little effect because you are putting a ferrous material w/ ur>>1 (mu relative) (Iron is probably 10000-100000) inside of the coil. This will concentrate almost all of the field (but the obvious answer is to make them only big enough to house the plunger comfortably. The rule of thumb is the length should be 2x the diam, but this is NOT strictly adhered to) 5) Wire size only changes the resistance. I cant remember the rule for current density (get the metric and inch versions confused). I THINK its about 300A/cm^2. It is usually a little less than a wire in free air because the turns inside the coil can't be cooled effectively. Have seen designs that violate the rule 10:1, but the coil is dipped in conductive epoxy and glued to a heatsink. You will definately want to check check this rule. 6) The remaining elements are the plunger geometry. Magnetic fields must form loops (remember there are no magnetic monopoles in the world - at least none found yet;) The field likes to travel in iron (and other ferrous materials), so for a standard bar/bolt wrapped w/ a coil the field must exit at the ends, permeate into free space and end up at the other end (duh, an electromagnet). The trick is to then put a C shaped piece of iron around the bolt to almost complete the path (a horse-shoe magnet). This means the field must only jump across the gap to the object you are pulling on, through it a little ways, and back across the gap. The objective, make the gap as small as practicle. 7) The force is now related to the total gap length (both sides and any cracks you may have). I dont think its proportional but instead a 1/x or 1/x^2 relationship (here is where you and I want to do different things). 8) It is very tough to predict force vs geometry without a finite element fields program. The easiest thing to do is to pick a reasonable looking geometry, put a few turns on it, and run some tests. Yep, you guessed it - experiment. Building an inductor, you usually dont care about the force, but gap the material instead to control the maximum field and reduce the effective permeability to something predictable (make the inductor design repeatable and prevent saturation). 9) There are ALOT of things I neglect here, so please Mr Maxwell, dont yell at me. A also tend to use field and flux interchangeably so plz don't yell at me their either. Anyway, have fun. If anyone has actually read all of this except Mazda, Im impressed. If there is anything else I can help w/, you know how to reach me... SMD -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@vt.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 23:05:24 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA07066; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:57:10 GMT Return-Path: Received: from colba.colba.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA07061; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:57:07 -0500 Received: from marchildon (pm6-s22.colba.net [207.107.88.152]) by colba.colba.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09313 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:57:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970129175803.00921430@mail.colba.net> X-Sender: marchildon@mail.colba.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:58:09 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Alain Marchildon Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I think there has been enough responses that you might think on getting them posted at the DIY_EFI site. And by the way I like to see them also. From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 23:23:30 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07160; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:13:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07155; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:13:37 -0500 Received: from rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.10.30]) by rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23773 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chinwall@localhost) by rcltel.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA09849; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:13:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:13:34 -0500 (EST) From: alifya chinwalla To: diy_efi Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi A few questions: I'm doing some research related to Air to Fuel Ratio Control, and am trying to get the response times for the following: 70mm Hitachi Air Meter 9F472 EGO sensor manufactured by NJK, Japan F03E-A2B Ford Fuel Injector Appreciate any help I can get. Thanks. Alifya Chinwalla From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 23:28:58 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07204; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:26:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07199; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:25:57 -0500 Received: from kleenair.ix.netcom.com (vie-va6-17.ix.netcom.com [199.35.207.209]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23273 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:25:36 -0800 Message-ID: <32EFDB5F.21FC@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:21:03 -0500 From: Mazda Ebrahimi Organization: Kleenair Systems. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Solenoid References: <2.2.16.19970129171507.1c37cc2a@mail.vt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Thanks for a great explanation. I'll try to soak it all in, and I'll probably have some questions soon. In case you are curious how this ties into diy_efi, as a part of a project at work I'm investigating the cost of manufacturing a low pressure gasous injector. Best Regards, Mazda From owner-diy_efi-archive Wed Jan 29 23:55:28 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id XAA07370; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:51:46 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id SAA07365; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:51:44 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial012h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.77]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id PAA27318 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:51:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32EFE103.765E@net-quest.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:45:07 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic problem References: <199701291130.AA027057433@hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Don Irwin wrote: > > Car had low compression and was difficult to start and not v. performant. > Changing piston rings without any difficulty but since then it will not > run for more than a couple of seconds. Starts well but quickly dies - as it does > so I hear the Air Flow Meter (AFM) flap dropping back and the fuel pump cutting > out. > The AFM has been checked by a Bosch agent - he says its ok . > The ECU can only be tested on the car and Bosch say it rarely fails. As its > not running cannot get it to a garage ! > The temp sensor (adjacent to the injectors) is ok (say Bosch ) altho if > I disconnect this the car will run (unevenly) for ~ 30 secs before cutting out . > When cranking the engine all injectors deliver fuel . Sounds to me like a pretty good sized vacuum leak. The car will start because the system injects a precalibrated amount of fuel into the thing, regardless of what the afm says. It dies, cause there is not enough airflow by the afm to give the system fuel. The thing will run with the water/cylinder head temp sensor, because that will give an overly rich condition. The thing thinks it's -30F out or something. Check for a missing line, or split boot, or something like that. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 00:56:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA07779; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:51:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA07774; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:51:33 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d23.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.215]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA07049 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:51:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:51:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701300051.SAA07049@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: Solenoid Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Wow, untill now, I _thought_ I knew what a solenoid was! Thanks for the "pulling" details. GMD At 05:21 PM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote: > Ok, we work in power electronics building inductors (for electric cars and >stuff) so magnetics is sort of our specialty (well, kinda). The quick and >dirty answer is ....(lots of solenoid info)... If anyone has actually read all >of this except Mazda, Im impressed. If there is anything else I can help >w/, you know how to reach me... > >SMD >-- >Stephen Dubovsky >dubovsky@vt.edu > >95 Yamaha FZR600 >83 Porsche 911SC >84 Jeep Cherokee > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 01:15:35 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA07868; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:13:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA07863; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:13:09 -0500 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA19252 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:12:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA06234; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:09:01 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA06234; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:09:01 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AC00148; Thu, 30 Jan 97 09:05:52 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701301405.AC00148@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:05:46 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: ABS Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Unfortunately, on very slick surfaces such as ice, all four wheels >lock up at once. Generally the ABS systems work on a speed >differential algorithm. If a wheel is going appreciably slower than >another (the others), then that wheel is considered locked and the >brake system is modulated. If all four are locked at the same time >(at least at very slow vehicle speeds), the system sees the vehicle >as stopped and is not activated. This is why ABS is generally found >to be ineffective on ice. Some ABS systems have chassis mounted G-sensors which I presume are used to compare wheel deceleration with vehicle deceleration. If all four wheels lock instantaneously then you would be able to detect this by such a comparison. In any case there would be a limiting value of wheel deceleration, beyond which a lock-up condition could be inferred. Andrew Rabbitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 03:01:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA08276; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:55:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA08271; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0500 Received: from crl2.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03099 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:55:06 -0800 Received: by crl2.crl.com id AA14327 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:53:45 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:53:45 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic problem In-Reply-To: <32EFE103.765E@net-quest.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Todd Knighton wrote: > Don Irwin wrote: > > run for more than a couple of seconds. Starts well but quickly dies - as it does > > so I hear the Air Flow Meter (AFM) flap dropping back and the fuel pump cutting > > out. > Sounds to me like a pretty good sized vacuum leak. If its that easy look at the bottom side of the hose to the air flow meter [I'm speaking from Spider experience here]. --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 03:14:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id DAA08370; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:09:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id WAA08365; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:09:32 -0500 From: Autodoc68@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA01085 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:09:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:09:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970129202357_1111697126@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey, ABS is not always on. It only activates when the brakes are applied except in the case of a vehicle with traction control. Traction control is always on only if you set your transmission in performance mode which is done on most vehicles if a performance package is installed. The only way to get the Performance package is to install speed rated tires at the factory. Hope this helps Mike Automotive Computer Electronics Tech. ASE Master Technician From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 04:36:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA08668; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 04:29:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA08663; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:29:46 -0500 From: Autodoc68@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA17560 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:29:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:29:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970129201422_1860171322@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey, Last I heard it was around 200 ms. I could be wrong so don't quote me. However I beleive this is ASE standard for all products sold in U.S. German and Japaness included. Mike Automotive Computer Electronics Tech. ASE Master Technician From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 05:13:34 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA08798; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:08:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis.iul-ccs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08793; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:08:31 -0500 Received: from pme1-14.iul-ccs.com (pme1-14.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.47]) by atlantis.iul-ccs.com (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id WAA07416 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:06:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:06:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701300506.WAA07416@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: RE: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 10:34 AM 1/29/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: > This is why ABS is generally found to be ineffective on ice. Tell you what, non-ABS brakes are sure as hell ineffective on ice as well! Any amount of divine intervention is usually welcome under these circumstances. There must be something other than the differential speed algorithm involved in the ABS control. If a 4 wheel lockup occurred, and the VSS reading went from 20MPH to 0 in, say, half a second, the ABS controller should know something is fishy. As soon as the ABS cuts in, the wheels will start turning, and the differential speed thingie starts working again. However, the ABS system has to cut out below some minimum wheel speed, otherwise the brakes wouldn't work at all when the vehicle is not moving. Not a safe situation, to say the least. Also, I would think that ABS systems work in pairs, ie front wheels on one modulator, and rear on another modulator. It would be prohibitively expensive to have a separate master cylinder connection and modulator valve for each wheel. They may still have sensors on each wheel, but controlling them in pairs is (IMHO) much safer (and cheaper) than modulating each wheel individually. regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 05:27:13 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA08869; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:24:05 GMT Return-Path: Received: from post.everett.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08864; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:24:02 -0500 Received: from allnight (cis1-p1.everett.net [205.134.193.97]) by post.everett.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA09290 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:19:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199701300619.WAA09290@post.everett.net> From: "Johnny" To: "diy_efi" Subject: Admin stuff, ignore unless you are really bored Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:21:31 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi, What a mess that was. Through the diligence of jsg and the heavy bags under the eyes of yours truly, I think we might actually have it under control now. I would like to make one final apology for the hassle and interruption that all of this may have caused to the diy_efi list. As you all know, when it comes to computers, sh*t happens. If there is still anyone that wants to get off the list, that got put back on as part of the massive restore, please send mail to; majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu put; unsubscribe diy_efi in the body of the message. For the rest, if there is any other continuing strangeness, please let me know at; allnight@everett.net We are watching the system fairly closely for a while to see if anymore errors are going to persist. Thank you for your patience, enjoy! -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 05:45:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA08956; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:41:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from wave.beaches.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA08950; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:41:48 -0500 Received: from warloch (p1s23.beaches.net [206.240.81.56]) by wave.beaches.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA13579 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:41:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701300541.XAA13579@wave.beaches.net> From: "John Faubion" To: Subject: Re: Solenoid Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:35:56 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > yell at me their either. Anyway, have fun. If anyone has actually read all > of this except Mazda, Im impressed. If there is anything else I can help Still with you Stephen! Of course I've always been into obscurities. 8) John Faubion jfaubion@beaches.net From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 06:15:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id GAA09150; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:10:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id BAA09145; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:10:42 -0500 Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA15387 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:10:09 -0800 Received: by crl5.crl.com id AA10210 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:08:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:08:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Hendricks To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: Admin stuff, Thanks Johnny! In-Reply-To: <199701300619.WAA09290@post.everett.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Johnny wrote: > now. I would like to make one final apology for the hassle and interruption No apologies. Instead thanks, I think from all of us, for the unseen everyday work and the especially the special effort to straighten out the mess. --Carter From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 07:35:57 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA09667; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:33:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mule1.mindspring.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA09662; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:33:31 -0500 Received: from sn (user-37kb5v3.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.151.227]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA118944 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:33:28 -0500 Message-ID: <32F007BA.A8B@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:30:18 +0000 From: David Kraft X-Sender: David Kraft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS X-Priority: Normal References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------586370674E230" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------------586370674E230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John Hess wrote: > > Unfortunately, on very slick surfaces such as icd, all four wheels > lock up at once. Generally the ABS systems work on a speed > differential algorithm. If a wheel is going appreciably slower than > another (the others), then that wheel is considered locked and the > brake system is modulated. If all four are locked at the same time > (at least at very slow vehicle speeds), the system sees the vehicle as > stopped and is not activated. This is why ABS is generally found to > be ineffective on ice. Aha!, It is the ice which is ineffective, not the ABS. What they do is Pulse the wheels independantly. That way if the computer "tests" a wheel by applying braking, then releasing. It can tell the wheels' propensity to lock up, and try a lower braking value next time, until It doesn't lock up. I have tested this in slick mud, and it is quite amazing. However, if there simply isn't anything to stop you, the ABS doesn't throw out any grappling hooks. :) ------------586370674E230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
John Hess wrote:

> Unfortunately, on very slick surfaces such as icd, all four wheels
> lock up at once.  Generally the ABS systems work on a speed
> differential algorithm.  If a wheel is going appreciably slower than
> another (the others), then that wheel is considered locked and the
> brake system is modulated.  If all four are locked at the same time
> (at least at very slow vehicle speeds), the system sees the vehicle as
> stopped and is not activated.  This is why ABS is generally found to
> be ineffective on ice.
 
Aha!, It is the ice which is ineffective, not the ABS.
What they do is Pulse the wheels independantly. That way if the computer "tests" a wheel by applying braking, then releasing. It can tell the wheels' propensity to lock up, and try a lower braking value next time, until It doesn't lock up.
I have tested this in slick mud, and it is quite amazing. However, if there simply isn't anything to stop you, the ABS doesn't throw out any grappling hooks. :)
 
------------586370674E230-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 07:36:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id HAA09695; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:36:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mule1.mindspring.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id CAA09690; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:36:18 -0500 Received: from sn (user-37kb5v3.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.151.227]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA108104 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:36:15 -0500 Message-ID: <32F00861.3242@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:33:05 +0000 From: David Kraft X-Sender: David Kraft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Wrong adress in List X-Priority: Normal References: <32EF7E9B.58962820@informatik.ee.edag.de> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------74C36D56349C1" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------------74C36D56349C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Katzmann wrote: > > Hello, > i'm twice since yesterday on the list. > The correct adress is pet@informatik.ee.edag.de . This is still working. > > But also now are mails to Rpet@informatik.ee.edag.de, which is > definitely wrong. Please could you remove this wrong entry. > > With thanks in advance > > p. katzmann You have the power.... To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] ------------74C36D56349C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Peter Katzmann wrote:

> Hello,
> i'm twice since yesterday on the list.
> The correct adress is pet@informatik.ee.edag.de . This is still working.

> But also now are mails to Rpet@informatik.ee.edag.de, which is
> definitely wrong. Please could you remove this wrong entry.

> With thanks in advance

> p. katzmann
 
You have the power....

To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu         unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if            different than your "From" address] 
------------74C36D56349C1-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 08:07:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id IAA09781; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:06:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mule1.mindspring.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA09776; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:06:17 -0500 Received: from sn (user-37kb5v3.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.151.227]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA41300 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:06:14 -0500 Message-ID: <32F00F68.36E0@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:03:04 +0000 From: David Kraft X-Sender: David Kraft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS X-Priority: Normal References: <199701300506.WAA07416@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------64F96DE35FCE2" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ------------64F96DE35FCE2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Darrell Norquay wrote: > Also, I would think that ABS systems work in pairs, ie front wheels on one > modulator, and rear on another modulator. It would be prohibitively > expensive to have a separate master cylinder connection and modulator valve > for each wheel. They may still have sensors on each wheel, but controlling > them in pairs is (IMHO) much safer (and cheaper) than modulating each wheel > individually. > > regards > dn > dnorquay@iul-ccs.com My Unit has 5 selenoids, and I will get back to you after I read the shop manual.... ------------64F96DE35FCE2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Darrell Norquay wrote:

> Also, I would think that ABS systems work in pairs, ie front wheels on one
> modulator, and rear on another modulator.  It would be prohibitively
> expensive to have a separate master cylinder connection and modulator valve
> for each wheel.  They may still have sensors on each wheel, but controlling
> them in pairs is (IMHO) much safer (and cheaper) than modulating each wheel
> individually.

> regards
> dn
> dnorquay@iul-ccs.com

My Unit has 5 selenoids, and I will get back to you after I read the shop manual.... 
------------64F96DE35FCE2-- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 14:29:14 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA10786; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:22:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA10781; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:22:23 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 30 Jan 1997 14:22:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 30 Jan 1997 14:22:21 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id IAA10278; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:22:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:22:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701301422.IAA10278@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi, Bronco list From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: EEC-IV discussion group Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Sometime back, I collected the names of everyone that had expressed an interest in Ford's EEC-IV ECU and tried to stir up a sub-group to diy_efi. The EEC-IV list is now hosted by Paul Nowak. The list address is: eec-efi@umich.edu If you have an interest in EEC-IV, please join us. I'm no longer a member of the Fordnatics list, so please re-post this there. If you are a member of any other list (like Mustang, etc.) where there might be people interested in participating, please post this on those lists also. Thanks, Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 15:32:40 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA10906; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:23:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10901; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:23:50 -0500 From: gofast@ix.netcom.com Received: from stm-ct11-41.ix.netcom.com (stm-ct11-41.ix.netcom.com [198.211.91.169]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA16624; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:23:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:23:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com: Host stm-ct11-41.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: DIY_EFI To: bmw-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net Cc: tangen@nbserv2.dseg.ti.com Message-Id: <199713010214556334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: BMW e12 530i FI dle and running progress X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi everyone - just want to thank everyone again for all the help I've gotten in debugging my L-jet fuel injection over the past 2 months. To recap, it 'chokes' at high rpms. I had kind of concluded that I needed more fuel + more timing advance. I getting to the bottom of this, slowly. It appears that my cars had/has multiple problems that have compounded each other. Last night, in one fell swoop, I resolved a number of them: 1) A few months ago, I had picked up a bad tank of gas. I had changed the fuel filter at the time. Well, last week, I let the fuel level get low, and did it choke! Changed fuel filter - ran better, but still 'choked'. Tried to siphon out tank to clean out bottom dirt, with not much luck - will try this again later. 2) I was in the UK last week. Picked up a euro 630i distributer - much better advance curve than stock. Put it on last night, and reinstalled Allison optical electronic trigger. Result: better acceleration, better idle (can bring it down to 1000 rpm), no more choking, but still has a slight hesitation around 4k rpm during *hard* acceleration, after which it picks up again. Todd - no more need to go the MSD route with electronic advance, I think. 3) Checked the AFM flapper - felt like it might stick. Put on another AFM I have, a 'new' Python rebuilt unit. Result - low power, but no sticking. 3a) Loosened spring on Python AFM by 3 notches. Result: some more power, better sounding engine. 4) This morning, I drove the car cold. It runs *much* better when cold than when hot - much more power. Once warmed, it does not have as much high rpm torque. I think this is cause it runs richer when cold - I still think more high rpm fuel, while not needed, will make me enjoy the car more. Next step: I am planning to build a DIY o2 sensor led meter, and put an o2 sensor in the manifold. The 530i has this useless 'seat belt/service' warning light thing sticking out in the center of the dash, that would be well utilised by sticking a row of leds in there! Once this is done, I will try and get more fuel at higher rpms. Possibilities are: a) mechanical: fuel pressure regulator b) electronic: change resistor's in the computer to give more fuel at higher rpms. (Does anyone have circuit diagrams for L-jet ECUs?) c) electronic: change to euro 635 computer. Thanks again for all the help. Samir Shah gofast@ix.netcom.com Stamford, CT From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 15:34:10 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA10924; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:32:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10919; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:32:31 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 30 Jan 1997 15:30:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 30 Jan 1997 15:30:48 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id JAA26133; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:30:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:30:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701301530.JAA26133@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Bronco list , diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: EEC-IV discussion group Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >> Sometime back, I collected the names of everyone that had expressed >> an interest in Ford's EEC-IV ECU and tried to stir up a sub-group >> to diy_efi. The EEC-IV list is now hosted by Paul Nowak. >> >> The list address is: >> >> eec-efi@umich.edu > >Tom- > >Is this the list address or the administrative address? I assume we >should send mail to eec-efi-request@umich.edu to subscribe. > >-Matt >kirkwood@LSIL.com I'm sorry, I screwed up ..... To add or delete yourself from the EEC-IV list and for other administrative requests, please send email with "eec-efi request" in the subject line to Paul Nowak directly at: p-nowak@eelink.umich.edu The address for the email distribution list is: eec-efi@umich.edu All messages addressed to eec-efi@umich.edu will result in email being sent to all the people on the distribution list. To use the email distribution list simply address an email message to eec-efi@umich.edu. Your message will be distributed to the list members. When replying to a message, be sure to address your message to the list and not to the individual that wrote the message you are replying to (unless you want to reply to the individual only). If you just hit reply in your mailer, you will probably end up sending a message to the list and to the origional sender of the message which will result in at least the origional sender getting the same message twice. Sorry, Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 15:36:29 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA10948; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:34:57 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10943; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:34:54 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA21672; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:34:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021661; Thu, 30 Jan 97 09:33:59 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0E91.1932AED0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:36:41 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au'" Subject: RE: ABS Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:36:10 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Do you drive on ice? ---------- From: RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au[SMTP:RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com. au] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 1997 8:06 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: ABS >Unfortunately, on very slick surfaces such as ice, all four wheels >lock up at once. Generally the ABS systems work on a speed >differential algorithm. If a wheel is going appreciably slower than >another (the others), then that wheel is considered locked and the >brake system is modulated. If all four are locked at the same time >(at least at very slow vehicle speeds), the system sees the vehicle >as stopped and is not activated. This is why ABS is generally found >to be ineffective on ice. Some ABS systems have chassis mounted G-sensors which I presume are used to compare wheel deceleration with vehicle deceleration. If all four wheels lock instantaneously then you would be able to detect this by such a comparison. In any case there would be a limiting value of wheel deceleration, beyond which a lock-up condition could be inferred. Andrew Rabbitt From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 15:40:03 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA10966; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:39:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10961; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:39:24 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA21874; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:38:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021866; Thu, 30 Jan 97 09:38:30 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0E91.BA7B49A0@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:41:12 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , "'Darrell Norquay'" Subject: RE: ABS Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:40:41 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi And it is this slow speed turnoff that allows so many people to skid (literally) hundreds of yards on ice. How far do you think you can skid with the wheels locked versus reasonable application of the brakes on ice. For myself (perhaps not everyone), I find it easier to try to keep from skidding in the first place on ice and to maintain some control over which end of the car hits (or, perhaps misses) the tree. One has no chance of doing this even at VERY slow speeds unless the wheels are turning! ---------- From: Darrell Norquay[SMTP:dnorquay@iul-ccs.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 11:07 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: ABS At 10:34 AM 1/29/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: > This is why ABS is generally found to be ineffective on ice. Tell you what, non-ABS brakes are sure as hell ineffective on ice as well! Any amount of divine intervention is usually welcome under these circumstances. There must be something other than the differential speed algorithm involved in the ABS control. If a 4 wheel lockup occurred, and the VSS reading went from 20MPH to 0 in, say, half a second, the ABS controller should know something is fishy. As soon as the ABS cuts in, the wheels will start turning, and the differential speed thingie starts working again. However, the ABS system has to cut out below some minimum wheel speed, otherwise the brakes wouldn't work at all when the vehicle is not moving. Not a safe situation, to say the least. Also, I would think that ABS systems work in pairs, ie front wheels on one modulator, and rear on another modulator. It would be prohibitively expensive to have a separate master cylinder connection and modulator valve for each wheel. They may still have sensors on each wheel, but controlling them in pairs is (IMHO) much safer (and cheaper) than modulating each wheel individually. regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 15:43:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA10986; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:41:56 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA10981; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:41:53 -0500 Received: by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net; id JAA21943; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:41:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(192.1.52.1) by ixc_fw0.ixc-comm.net via smap (V3.1.1) id xma021934; Thu, 30 Jan 97 09:40:48 -0600 Received: by exchange1.ixc-comm.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0E92.0D3FA460@exchange1.ixc-comm.net>; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:43:30 -0600 Message-ID: From: John Hess To: "'diy_efi'" , "'Johnny'" Subject: RE: Admin stuff, ignore unless you are really bored Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:43:00 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I, for one applaud your efforts. I find the readers and posters on this newsgroup a cut above the rest in knowledge and stimulating discussions. While I don't agree with all of them all the time, I find myself agreeing with all of them some of the time and most of them most of the time. Here, you learn THINGS. ---------- From: Johnny[SMTP:allnight@everett.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 11:22 PM To: diy_efi Subject: Admin stuff, ignore unless you are really bored Hi, What a mess that was. Through the diligence of jsg and the heavy bags under the eyes of yours truly, I think we might actually have it under control now. I would like to make one final apology for the hassle and interruption that all of this may have caused to the diy_efi list. As you all know, when it comes to computers, sh*t happens. If there is still anyone that wants to get off the list, that got put back on as part of the massive restore, please send mail to; majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu put; unsubscribe diy_efi in the body of the message. For the rest, if there is any other continuing strangeness, please let me know at; allnight@everett.net We are watching the system fairly closely for a while to see if anymore errors are going to persist. Thank you for your patience, enjoy! -j- From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 16:16:54 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA11169; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:12:14 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stonewall.sra.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA11164; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:09 -0500 From: Administrator_at_FL-HUB@smtplink.sra.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by stonewall.sra.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA03502 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:25:16 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by stonewall.sra.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA03502 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:25:16 -0500 Received: from unknown(163.252.98.5) by stonewall.sra.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003224; Thu Jan 30 11:25:02 1997 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.sra.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20317 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtplink1.sra.com(163.252.100.16) by mail via smap (V1.3) id sma020309; Thu Jan 30 11:01:34 1997 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.sra.com (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA854651563; Thu, 30 Jan 97 11:12:09 EST Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 11:12:09 EST Encoding: 8 Text Message-Id: <9700308546.AA854651563@smtplink.sra.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Message not deliverable Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hey, Last I heard it was around 200 ms. I could be wrong so don't quote me. However I beleive this is ASE standard for all products sold in U.S. German and Japaness included. Mike Automotive Computer Electronics Tech. ASE Master Technician From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 18:46:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id SAA11594; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:41:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from novell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA11589; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:41:12 -0500 Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:40:54 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:40:21 -0800 From: Brad Anesi To: quattro@coimbra.ans.net, DIY_EFI, PorscheFans-911@ioio.com, alfa-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net Subject: High Pressure Silicone Fuel Hose Source? Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hi All- Do these exist? If so, does anyone have a good source? Prefer something "colorful" like the Samco silicon coolant hoses, but I don't think they make fuel hose. Thanks in advance, Brad '86 Porsche 911 Coupe '91 Alfa 164B 5-speed From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 19:22:05 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA11736; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:15:08 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA11731; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:15:04 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <4606>; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:14:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:14:15 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan X-Sender: chanwe@spark25.ecf To: Alain Marchildon cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: diagnostic tool In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970129175803.00921430@mail.colba.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Hello. I have just finished scanning the data logger designs. Because the design notes are my raw engineering notes the text is somewhat terse. I'm a little bogged down with work right now so I might not be able to put up the web page till Friday night (or even the weekend). If anyone is interested I am working with three other students (I'm doing the electronics and computer design) on a self riding bicycle. The control code which we will be using might be applicable to EFI. Wen On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Alain Marchildon wrote: > I think there has been enough responses that you might think on getting > them posted at the DIY_EFI site. > And by the way I like to see them also. > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 20:22:15 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA11937; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:16:39 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11932; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:16:36 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 30 Jan 1997 20:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 30 Jan 1997 20:16:01 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id OAA23722 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701302016.OAA23722@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: RE: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >And it is this slow speed turnoff that allows so many people to skid >(literally) hundreds of yards on ice. How far do you think you can >skid with the wheels locked versus reasonable application of the >brakes on ice. For myself (perhaps not everyone), I find it easier to >try to keep from skidding in the first place on ice and to maintain >some control over which end of the car hits (or, perhaps misses) the >tree. One has no chance of doing this even at VERY slow speeds >unless the wheels are turning! That's why you downshift to a lower gear -- so the motor will fight the brakes a little and keep the wheels from locking up Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 20:22:17 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA11919; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:13:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA11914; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:13:13 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 30 Jan 1997 20:12:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 30 Jan 1997 20:12:53 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id OAA24569 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:12:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:12:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701302012.OAA24569@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: BMW e12 530i FI dle and running progress Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Next step: I am planning to build a DIY o2 sensor led meter, and put an o2 >sensor in the manifold. The 530i has this useless 'seat belt/service' >warning light thing sticking out in the center of the dash, that would be >well utilised by sticking a row of leds in there! You'll get much more useful data if you put a DPM there .... you can see the actual voltage and make better guesses. The DPM I use cost $15 (U.S.) from Hosfelt Electronics, takes 9V power (rated to 15, so could probably use 12V power -- esp if put a couple of diodes in series for voltage reduction). Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Thu Jan 30 22:33:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id WAA12229; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:27:29 GMT Return-Path: Received: from salisbury.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id RAA12223; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:27:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199701302227.RAA12223@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: from [206.228.215.81] by salisbury.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id A0FC401E8; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:30:20 -0500 From: "gfulton" To: , Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #29 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:21:18 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In reference to the message from Mr. Shapiro concerning dropping fuel flow to one or more cylinders to increase economy. Cadillac did this back in the '70's on their large displacement engines with carburetors by using solenoid arrangement on the valve train to keep the valves shut on 4 of 8 cylinders under light load. A Popular Mechanics article explained the concept as increasing the efficiency at light loads above about 60 mph since with the valves closed, almost all energy used to compress air in a cylinder would be returned as the piston was forced back down by the high pressure. All this is from memory, mind you. I believe they did it for only one or two years as they had a lot of trouble with the valve/solenoid arrangement. I don't believe the arrangement of cutting fuel to the cylinders would increase fuel economy, as the valves would still work and energy would be used pumping air. I would welcome any other opinions. Garrett Fulton gfulton@salisbury.net ---------- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #29 > Date: Saturday, January 25, 1997 5:00 AM > > > DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 25 January 1997 Volume 02 : Number 029 > > In this issue: > > GM buying from Electromotive?? > Re: natural gas > Re: GM buying from Electromotive?? > Re: Test of Life > Traffic > Large displacement engines & fuel economy > Ford Ranger > Ford Ranger (repost) > Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy > Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy > Test > Factory vs aftermarket (Part2) > Factory vs aftermarket (part1) > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: john spears > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:10:29 -0500 > Subject: GM buying from Electromotive?? > > In digest 28 David Doddek speaks of the merits of Electromotive. And while > I'm glad your system is working well, your statements about GM buying direct > fire systems from Electromotive are completely false. All Grand National > direct fire systems from 1984 - 1987 are manufactured by Magnavox, and > consist of a "coil pack" of three coils molded together. GM DIS systems came > online, slowly, in 1986 on 3.8L SFI engines, other than the Grand National. > The GM DIS system eventually went on to be used on all of GM's DIS equipped > engines, displacing Magnavox. There was some early on development work > done between the two companies (Electromotive and GM), but nothing ever came > of it. As the years went by, the only thing Electromotive supplied GM with > was a bunch of pain in the ass, frivolous law suits. > > > John Spears > > ------------------------------ > > From: LotusM50@aol.com > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: natural gas > > In a message dated 97-01-23 19:47:34 EST, paul@jbc.edu (Paul Beam) writes: > > << This may stray a bit, but does anyone have any experience converting a > small > engine to run on natural gas? We want to take a gasoline powered AC > generator and convert it. Any info on suppliers of parts would be > appreciated. > >> > > I am interested n doing the same thing (but after my current project). You > may want to make a call the Amercian Gas Association in Arlington, Virginia > and ask for a technical person. There also is a technical person at the > Coalition for Natural Gas Vehicles that may be aable to help as well. There > are also in Arlington, Va. I don't have their numbers with me but they can > be found with directory assistance. > > ------------------------------ > > From: "George M. Dailey" > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:34:21 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: GM buying from Electromotive?? > > This sounds consistent with other Electromotive users. > > GMD > > At 07:10 AM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >In digest 28 David Doddek speaks of the merits of Electromotive. And while > >I'm glad your system is working well, your statements about GM buying direct > >fire systems from Electromotive are completely false. All Grand National > >direct fire systems from 1984 - 1987 are manufactured by Magnavox, and > >consist of a "coil pack" of three coils molded together. GM DIS systems came > >online, slowly, in 1986 on 3.8L SFI engines, other than the Grand National. > >The GM DIS system eventually went on to be used on all of GM's DIS equipped > >engines, displacing Magnavox. There was some early on development work > >done between the two companies (Electromotive and GM), but nothing ever came > >of it. As the years went by, the only thing Electromotive supplied GM with > >was a bunch of pain in the ass, frivolous law suits. > > > > > > John Spears > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: "George M. Dailey" > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:30:50 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: Test of Life > > It's still kicking Peter. > GMD > > At 12:35 PM 1/23/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi all > > > >Is the old net still alive? > > > >I hope I didn't get excummunicated. > > > >Oh well till later: peter > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Mark Eidson > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:37:10 -0700 > Subject: Traffic > > I have not seen any traffic for 3 days. Is the list dead? me > *************************************************************************** > * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * > * Fax: (602)752-6000 * > * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * > * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * > * VLSI Technology, Inc. * > * 8375 South River Parkway * > * M/S 265 * > * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * > *************************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jody Shapiro > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:44:29 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Large displacement engines & fuel economy > > Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to > see what others thought about it: > > A common reason for going to larger displacement engine is for the gain > in torque, particularly at low RPM, without having to sacrifice high-RPM > power (by changing intake runner length). > > The downside is a drop in fuel economy at part/light throttle since you > still have to "feed" the extra displacement. A good example is a > 350" motor stroked to 383". You get all of the benefits of the extra 33" > of displacement at WOT, but highway mileage will decrease now. > > Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the drop in mileage is because you > need to maintain the same A/F ratios that you would have maintained for > the stock displacement motor. You can lean the mixture out as much as > you like, but there's a limit to how lean you can go. The stock fuel maps > will try to lean out the mixture as much as they can for a 350" motor. > Since you now have a 383" motor, if you inject the same amount of fuel as > you did for a 350" motor the mixture will be too lean since the motor > will be sucking in more air into each cylinder now than it did before. > > Given that you can't lean out the mixture anymore, what is the best way > to boost part/light throttle fuel economy? > > How about a system similar to Cadillac's on the NorthStar engine whereby > they don't inject -any- fuel into some cylinders. The reason Cadillac > does this is in the event of cooling system failure. Cylinders are > starved of fuel in a preset order to allow them to just pump air in an > effort to allow things to cool. > > This obviously has an adverse affect on power (I believe the NorthStar > engine has problems going faster than 55mph or so when in this state). > > I don't know how frequently the Cadillac system cuts out cylinders, or how > many it cuts out in a given firing sequence, but couldn't this idea be > applied to a large displacement port-fuel injected motor? In other words, > to conserve fuel, cut out a cylinder in every firing sequence (but make > the cut-out cylinder a different one each time so no cylinder gets cut out > twice in a row). > > I don't know what kind of effect this would have on RPM stability, or > engine smoothness (hopefully not too bad), but is this a feasible > alternative so that you can have your cake and eat it, too? You get all > of the advantages of extra ci at WOT, and you don't have the gas guzzling > at part throttle. > > Obviously, this is something that we can only do via a custom programmed > EFI system (like EFI332), but would it work? > > Comments? > > - -Jody > - -- > http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ > > ------------------------------ > > From: Peter Shoebridge > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:40:14 -0700 > Subject: Ford Ranger > > Some may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted a note regarding my mate > who was having problems with his 1988 Ford Ranger. > > Brief synopsis: > > Engine occasionally stalled when coming to a stop after running. > Happened no matter what the temp. > Would not restart properly unless ignition was switched off then back on. > > > He changed the following items without resolution: > Ignition module > Temp sensor > Fuel/EEC relays > > After changing the temp sensor the symptoms changed, in that it now stalled > occasionally whilst changing gear not when coming to a stop. > > Finally, he had the chance to pull over once it had happened and restart > the engine without turning the ignition off (which caused it to run very > badly with black smoke from the exhaust) and pull up the bonnet (hood for > yanks:>). > > Pulling off the MAP sensor lead caused it to run ok, not brilliant but ok. > Even allowed him to drive down to NAPA for a new MAP sensor. > > Now seems to be ok. That was only yesterday, but he seems confident that > it's fixed. > > One question though: During all his testing, on one occasion he pulled off > the TPS connector and drove for an hour without any significant problem. > How can this be? Yes I can except that the ECU will choose a default value > for a duff/missing sensor but for the TPS??? > > Anyway if you got this far - thanks for reading!!!! > > Peter S > > ------------------------------ > > From: Peter Shoebridge > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:44:48 -0700 > Subject: Ford Ranger (repost) > > Some may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted a note regarding my mate > who was having problems with his 1988 Ford Ranger. > > Brief synopsis: > > Engine occasionally stalled when coming to a stop after running. > Happened no matter what the temp. > Would not restart properly unless ignition was switched off then back on. > > > He changed the following items without resolution: > Ignition module > Temp sensor > Fuel/EEC relays > > After changing the temp sensor the symptoms changed, in that it now stalled > occasionally whilst changing gear not when coming to a stop. > > Finally, he had the chance to pull over once it had happened and restart > the engine without turning the ignition off (which caused it to run very > badly with black smoke from the exhaust) and pull up the bonnet (hood for > yanks:>). > > Pulling off the MAP sensor lead caused it to run ok, not brilliant but ok. > Even allowed him to drive down to NAPA for a new MAP sensor. > > Now seems to be ok. That was only yesterday, but he seems confident that > it's fixed. > > One question though: During all his testing, on one occasion he pulled off > the TPS connector and drove for an hour without any significant problem. > How can this be? Yes I can except that the ECU will choose a default value > for a duff/missing sensor but for the TPS??? > > Anyway if you got this far - thanks for reading!!!! > > Peter S > > ------------------------------ > > From: "George Najarian" > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 13:09:51 -0800 > Subject: Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy > > On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:44:29 -0500 (EST), Jody Shapiro wrote: > > >Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to > >see what others thought about it: > > > >Given that you can't lean out the mixture anymore, what is the best way > >to boost part/light throttle fuel economy? > > > >Comments? > > > >-Jody > >-- > > EGR is used to dilute the mixture without changing the A/F ratio. Maybe > increasing the amount of recycled exhaust might work. > > > George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS E/SP (14.21/100.81) > najay@deltanet.com | '86 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (15.0/93) > http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ > Team.Net Team OS/2 > > ------------------------------ > > From: "George M. Dailey" > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:45:58 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: Large displacement engines & fuel economy > > At 01:44 PM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Here's an idea/thought I've been kicking around for awhile and wanted to > >see what others thought about it: > > > > >I don't know how frequently the Cadillac system cuts out cylinders, or how > >many it cuts out in a given firing sequence, but couldn't this idea be > >applied to a large displacement port-fuel injected motor? In other words, > >to conserve fuel, cut out a cylinder in every firing sequence (but make > >the cut-out cylinder a different one each time so no cylinder gets cut out > >twice in a row). > > > > You still have the parastic loss of the dead cylinder still compressing the > air within it. If you could stop the inlet and exhaust valves from opening, > you could dramatically reduce the dead cylinder resistance. Some early > caddys did just this. The system is remembered as junk. The Modulated > Displacement Engine they called it. It did meet the objective of having good > steady state fuel economy. > > > >I don't know what kind of effect this would have on RPM stability, or > >engine smoothness (hopefully not too bad), but is this a feasible > >alternative so that you can have your cake and eat it, too? You get all > >of the advantages of extra ci at WOT, and you don't have the gas guzzling > >at part throttle. > > > >Obviously, this is something that we can only do via a custom programmed > >EFI system (like EFI332), but would it work? > > > >Comments? > > > >-Jody > >-- > >http://www.token.net/~jshapiro/z28/ > > The best power/effiency setup would be a medium compression (9-1), medium > displacement (3L), engine with a low boost (<8lbs/in2) intercooled > turbocharger and an overdrive tranny. The higher compression ratio would > give you good economy under (no to low) boost. Medium displacement would > keep rotating mass at a minimum but not cause a power lag on the bottom end. > The low boost intercooled turbo would provide the high torque. The tranny > would be geared low for the first and second gears for performance. The > overdrive would provide steady state economy. > > Boost and high comp go together like Cryps and Bloods. This will require low > intercooled boost and water injection to controol detonation. > > My home built car will have a power trane that meets all of these specs. > This is very doable and proven to work. > > GMD > > ------------------------------ > > From: Jennifer Rose > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:47:35 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Test > > Hi All > > Test post- Haven't got any post last three days. Any still out there? > > Vance > > ------------------------------ > > From: Tomchou@aol.com > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:12 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Factory vs aftermarket (Part2) > > >someone building a street engine. There are numerous tradeoffs > >between maximum horsepower, maximum torque, and drivability. One > >thing we must understand in all this is that GM is forced to build an > >engine that meet CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), emission > >controls, smooth idle, low to mid-range torque, and easy cruising at > >(in '86) 55 mph. If the end users concerns lean toward one or more of > >these criteria, there are aftermarket products that will satisfy their > > This is somewhat true. There are some aftermarket items that do work well > when they target some compromise in the factory design; we are forced to make > many compromises for the reasons you state. Most effective changes are the > simple and logical ones, such as less restrictive exhausts (drive by noise > level requirements force certain compromises) and less restrictive intake > systems (again, noise levels are a concern.), or issues such as shift points > and torque management to make transmissions and such survive the 100K mile > durability cycle as warrenty costs are a major concern. > > However, the problem is that most aftermarket don't understand all the > ramifications of changes they make. For instance, MAFs are particularly > sensitive to turbulance, and the change to an open air element or ram air > (besides the hazards of water intrusion) could alter it's calibration. Even > if these things are understood, the aftermarket doesn't have the resources to > correctly compensate for many things they do. This results in at best, > slight irregularities in driveability, and most people that are into > modifications probably overlook this issue, as "race cars" are supposed to > drive rough. > > >needs. To state that these parts are fraudulent or that the people > >who sell them are liars is irresponsible and/or stupid.. > > Unfortunately, I've found this to be true more often than not. Many have > really good intentions, but just don't have enough understanding of the > issues and physical principles. > > >While it is true that the requirements of a particular engine may > >vary, there are some parts that will increase horsepower and torque, > >but were not placed on the original engine purely due to > >economics...Headers, dual exhaust (with dual catalytic converters), > >high flow air filters, high flow Mass Air Flow sensors, roller > >lifters, and throttle body air foils are notable among these. Even > >the calpak can be remapped for improved performances if done so to > >accomodate a particular engine and driving conditions. These engines > >(from the factory) are made for mass production. Plainly and simply, > >they are designed so that the lowest common denominator is met. > > Again, this is partially true, but not completely. This is what every > aftermarket vendor would love for everyone to believe, but don't buy into it > hook, line and sinker! I'm not flaming the originator of this post at all, > so please don't take it personally! I'm just expressing my opinion, and this > post happened to be the one that opened the issues! > > I know very well there are many compromises the OEM makes, but I've yet to > see an aftermarket company discover and optimize most *true* design > compromises despite their hype to this effect! The beauty of this particular > list is that everyone is more or less from a technical background, and are > able to talk intelligently about these things. Many lists such as the > general F body list (just picking on it - I stopped subscribing after too > many "my car is faster than yours") do buy into the aftermarket's advertising > wholeheartedly, but the folks on this list have the knowledge to really > evaluate the validity of vendor's claims. > > Tom Chou - Tomchou@aol.com > > ------------------------------ > > From: Tomchou@aol.com > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:52:06 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Factory vs aftermarket (part1) > > Subj: Factory vs aftermarket: was Valve train noise > Date: 01/21/97 > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Obviously my post was too long as it got kicked out the first time I sent it. > Since list traffic is slow, I'll split it in 2 parts and get my .02 in! > > >>From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@tecinfo.com] > >>Don't feel bad. After market parts can confuse even the most seasoned hot > >>rodder. Some of the venders are liscened and bonded LIERS. Oh, it's not a > >>total loss though, I've heard that the Electromotive ECMs make excellent > and > >>attractive door stops or paper weights:} > > >From: John Hess > >This is what I mean by an instant expert. First of all, the very fact > > Hey - I haven't been on this particular list very long, but I don't believe > George Dailey fits the term "instant expert" here! Actually, and I know I'm > very biased here, but I consider _almost_ every aftermarket vendor I've met > with a few exceptions to be "instant experts". Most have very little formal > education in anything remotely resembling Automotive Engineering, or > aerospace or electronics and have no technical experience working for any > major automotive related company. Some of the better ones at least are > master mechanics of some sort and have considerable practical experience in > racing, etc. while others were probably shoe salesmen (no offense to them - > just thinking of Al Bundy) who picked up a Bosch Handbook and are now giving > all sorts of technical advice. (I'm not even remotely refering to anybody on > this list as I haven't been on long enough!) I'm not saying you must have a > degree or anything to know what you're talking about either, but most of > these guys are really lacking in technical knowledge yet you'll think they > were PhD's in fluid dynamics or combustion analysis from their claims. > > >that GM spent those millions dictated that they were obligated to > >cover their costs. The original TPI was designed for the 305 engine > >and is woefully inadequate for even a mildly built 350. The air > >foils, ported plenums, opened up MAF do, in fact, increase horsepower > >easily measurable on a dyno, 0-60 time, quarter mile, or even the seat > >of ones pants. I agree that the GM MAF system is the way to go for > > I have considerable insight into this, and we've looked at many of these > items. I don't trust any dyno data I've seen in the popular magazines - > they're almost always performed at either the aftermarket manufacturers own > dyno or some biased shop. There's just too many things you can do to get the > numbers you want. In general, some of these products are based on a valid > idea or principle but taken out of context or only beneficial under very > specific conditions. For example, maybe airspeed needs to be near airplane > velocities for some concept to work, or in the case of different ignition > schemes, their ideas may be good for alcohol or nitromethane only, or for > specific combustion chamber profiles/turbulances, etc. We've run many of > these products on our extremely accurate/expensive dynos that no aftermarket > could come close to affording, and found none to offer exactly what they > claim or advertise. At best, some products have a measureable effect - > usually detrimental, but if properly understood, given the proper conditions, > I can see them being beneficial. > > When there are real measureable differences or benefits, it is not always due > to the product under evaluation! What I mean is that the product has somehow > altered certain parameters to give better performance under that condition, > (i.e. made it richer/leaner or altered *delivered* spark timing (due to more > capacitance or inductance on the secondaries) and when you gather proper data > and determine exactly what change took place, you can remove that product, > change those parameters via other means, and achieve identical results. > Well, one might say, that proves that product worked. Well, ok - that's one > way of looking at it, and probably the way the vendor wants it to be viewed, > but the problem is this is usually only beneficial under that special > condition, and not due to the reasons the vendor claims. > > Look at the aftermarket companies that are tightly connected to the Big 3, > such as McLaren, Roush, Shelby to name a few. If you talk to their people, > and look at what they do, you'll see they use very few of the usual popular > aftermarket products out there. Most of their creations use very factory > parts or custom ones they design for that specific application with > complementary changes in software/calibration or other components to > compensate any side effect. No "black magic" gimmicks such as air foils are > used. Look at the totally factory backed high tech race teams in endurance > racing, off road series, Indy Car/CART, Indy Lights - you don't see the same > stuff being used as the popular auto mags such as Hot Rod, Car Craft and such > advertise/evaluate. > > (Continued in part 2) > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #29 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 00:14:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA12372; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:05:52 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12367; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:05:49 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id QAA26699 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:55:14 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id RAA25154 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:05:47 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id RAA19346 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:13:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:13:45 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970130170510.0a47d36e@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Wen, when say web page, which one do you mean? me At 02:14 PM 1/30/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello. I have just finished scanning the data logger designs. Because the >design notes are my raw engineering notes the text is somewhat terse. I'm >a little bogged down with work right now so I might not be able to put up >the web page till Friday night (or even the weekend). If anyone is >interested I am working with three other students (I'm doing the >electronics and computer design) on a self riding bicycle. The control >code which we will be using might be applicable to EFI. > > >Wen > > > > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Alain Marchildon wrote: > >> I think there has been enough responses that you might think on getting >> them posted at the DIY_EFI site. >> And by the way I like to see them also. >> >> >> > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 00:51:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA12479; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:41:45 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA12474; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:41:42 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d8.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.200]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13041 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:41:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:41:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701310041.SAA13041@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: RE: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I can see independent 4 wheel braking as the way to go for maximum traction. Chevy trucks have the rear wheel only ABS that works off of the tranny VSS, I think. As we all know, most of the braking is at the front wheels. What's up with that? Most full size cars with ABS seem to have 4 wheel independent ABS. I got an ABS system off of a police car (93 caprice), Bosh unit. I'd love to hack it. But when you say ABS, hush is the word. Can't find the necessary info. GMD At 10:06 PM 1/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >Also, I would think that ABS systems work in pairs, ie front wheels on one >modulator, and rear on another modulator. It would be prohibitively >expensive to have a separate master cylinder connection and modulator valve >for each wheel. They may still have sensors on each wheel, but controlling >them in pairs is (IMHO) much safer (and cheaper) than modulating each wheel >individually. > >regards >dn >dnorquay@iul-ccs.com > > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 01:26:36 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA12680; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:12:48 GMT Return-Path: Received: from perki0.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA12675; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:12:41 -0500 Received: (from Uorbeng@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au id MAA21487 (8.7.6h/IDA-1.6 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:12:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki0.connect.com.au: Uorbeng set sender to RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au@oec4.orbeng.com.au using -f >Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA15813; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:08:32 +0800 Received: from mv8.orbeng.com.au by oec4.orbeng.com.au (R4.11MU01/1.34) id AA15813; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:08:32 +0800 Received: by mv8.orbeng.com.au (1.00/2.1) id AA00162; Fri, 31 Jan 97 09:04:25 est From: RABBITT_Andrew@mail.orbeng.com.au Message-Id: <9701311404.AA00162@mv8.orbeng.com.au> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:03:50 est To: diy_efi Subject: re: ABS Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >Do you drive on ice? I'm not sure where this question is leading, but the answer is yes and no. Yes, but not here in Australia. The worst thing I found with ABS on ice and snow was that it kept on working! I reckon at the speeds you travel at when on ice, a good driver can modulate the brakes as good as an ABS system, AND gets the choice as to whether to lock the wheels or not. From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 04:39:07 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13231; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:21:33 GMT Return-Path: Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13226; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:21:29 -0500 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (fpmail.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA16755 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:21:15 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from scratchy.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id RAA14888 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:20:52 +1300 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by scratchy.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.21); 31 Jan 97 17:22:03 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.30); 31 Jan 97 17:21:48 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:21:43 +1200 Subject: Manifold vaccuum, EGR & long duration cams Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <187F1CF6A9E@scratchy.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In an attempt to go from my very bad RPM/TPS system to a reasonable MAP system, I built myself an conventional arrangement plenum chamber, and tossed the DCOEs I was using as throttle bodies. However, It doesn't idle at all well. Setup: 72 degree overlap cam, largish plenum chamber, MAP system Problems: Won't idle below 1500 rpm. Simply dies if revs drop below that. Starts easily though. No idea how well it goes under load at higher rpms. (used to idle at 500rpm on tps system or carbs) At 1500 rpm with spark advanced for maximum vaccuum (13" Hg), actual fuel requirement (as determined by using a colortune windowed spark plug) is 1/4 what it should be, according to the MAP calculations. Hypothesis: During overlap a large amount of exhaust gas is being sucked back into the cylinder & plenum chamber, effectively giving me the EGR system from hell. How to fix? I've so far managed to stay away from 2D tables, and stuck to parameterised formulas. (For ease of tuning). Do map systems generally cope well with high overlap? Will I have to retard the ignition at idle to slow it down below 1500? thanks... $$$ MAKE CAR FAST $$$ bryantt@psc.fp.co.nz From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 04:45:53 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id EAA13245; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:29:51 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mailsrv2.pcy.mci.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA13240; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:29:48 -0500 Received: from usr1-dialup8.mix2.Boston.mci.net (usr1-dialup8.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.0-7 #10045) id <01IEUB69IUWW9EGHN5@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from usr1-dialup8.mix2.Boston.mci.net (usr1-dialup8.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.0-7 #10044) id <01IEUB5NSASS9FQ3C9@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:20:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:57:32 -0500 From: "steve.jacques" Subject: Optimum injector selection To: diy_efi Message-id: <01IEUB5TPGWG9FQ3C9@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Would anyone know how to calculate the required injector flow rate required for a particular displacement engine? for example, a 4 cyl 4 stroke 600cc engine, spins up to 14,000rpm, made by Honda? Thanks for your help in advance! Steve Jacques From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 05:03:47 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id FAA13327; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:00:36 GMT Return-Path: Received: from atlantis.iul-ccs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id AAA13322; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:00:33 -0500 Received: from pme1-13.iul-ccs.com (pme1-13.iul-ccs.com [205.250.240.46]) by atlantis.iul-ccs.com (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id VAA11740 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:58:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:58:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199701310458.VAA11740@atlantis.iul-ccs.com> X-Sender: dnorquay@iul-ccs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Darrell Norquay Subject: RE: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 09:40 AM 1/30/97 -0600, John Hess wrote: >And it is this slow speed turnoff that allows so many people to skid >(literally) hundreds of yards on ice. How far do you think you can >skid with the wheels locked versus reasonable application of the >brakes on ice. For myself (perhaps not everyone), I find it easier to >try to keep from skidding in the first place on ice and to maintain >some control over which end of the car hits (or, perhaps misses) the >tree. One has no chance of doing this even at VERY slow speeds >unless the wheels are turning! Under zero traction conditions like sheer ice, ain't nothin gonna stop you, ABS or no. The miniscule coefficient of friction between rubber and polished ice is all you got (and mebbe some air drag), no matter if the brakes are locked, pumped, ABS'ed or off. No way ABS will *decrease* stopping distance under these conditions, but it probably won't *increase* them appreciably either. The only advantage of ABS in this situation is that you retain some semblance of directional control, which you *do not* have with locked wheels. The whole point of ABS is not to make you stop faster (it doesn't) but to retain steering control (it does). And GMD wrote: >I can see independent 4 wheel braking as the way to go for maximum traction. >Chevy trucks have the rear wheel only ABS that works off of the tranny VSS, >I think. As we all know, most of the braking is at the front wheels. What's >up with that? Since pickup trucks are generally light in the tail unloaded, they tend to lock up the back wheels first, throwing you into a skid. Rear only ABS is meant to handle this condition. I had a 91 Dodge Dakota, and the rear ABS sensor was in the differential, and sensed the teeth on the ring gear. And Andrew Rabbit wrote: >The worst thing I found with ABS on ice and snow was that it kept on >working! I reckon at the speeds you travel at when on ice, a good driver >can modulate the brakes as good as an ABS system, AND gets the choice as to >whether to lock the wheels or not. Yeah, we have ABS on several of our newer vehicles at work, and it scares the hell out of me. Nothing worse than tromping on the brakes, hearing that hideous groan of the ABS modulator, and keeping right on going. It does help control a skid better, but if you are accustomed to driving in these conditions as I am, you won't get into the skid in the first place. IMHO, I'd much rather be following a good, experienced driver with standard brakes than an inexperienced driver relying on ABS to keep him out of trouble anyday. ABS has it's place in conditions where you are not expecting traction problems, where it works well, but on ice it is both unnecessary and unnerving. regards dn dnorquay@iul-ccs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 13:42:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14095; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:34:27 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14090; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:34:24 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 31 Jan 1997 13:34:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 31 Jan 1997 13:34:22 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id HAA07928 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:34:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:34:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701311334.HAA07928@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: RE: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi >I can see independent 4 wheel braking as the way to go for maximum traction. >Chevy trucks have the rear wheel only ABS that works off of the tranny VSS, >I think. As we all know, most of the braking is at the front wheels. What's >up with that? If you lose traction on the rear, you spin out of control ..... Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 13:42:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14086; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:31:16 GMT Return-Path: Received: from gate2.ntrs.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14081; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:31:13 -0500 Received: by gate2.ntrs.com id AA07825 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 1.1 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:31:12 -0600 Received: by gate2.ntrs.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:31:12 -0600 Mr-Received: by mta TNTV3; Relayed; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:30:00 -0600 (CST) Alternate-Recipient: prohibited Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:22:56 CST From: "Terry McLane 312.630.0533" Subject: Re: ABS To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:29:00 CST Importance: normal Priority: normal Ua-Content-Id: C3218ZWROAPF7L X400-Mts-Identifier: [;00037013107991/7316568@TNTVAX] A1-Type: MAIL Hop-Count: 0 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi The last posting about ABS not being able to stop faster is incorrect. I have found that it DOES make a difference which ABS you have. I currently have three vehicles, two GMs, and Toyota All-Trac Turbo. Both of the GM cars when locked up seem to modulate at a very low frequency- you always feel like you could have stopped sooner yourself, no matter what the condition. However, the high-performance system that comes with the All-Trac is a complete joy. From any speed, it stops straight, and sooner than I would have been able to do under the same circumstances (and I've had a lot of practice with this car!). The modulation seems to be of a much higher frequency, and the ABS does not engage until you actually get wheel lockup, unlike the GM system. By the way, look at recent Car and Driver and Road and Track articles, where they do 0-100-0 timings. The ABS cars are quicker to stop, and much easier to control when stopping. Having the GM ABS system first, I would have sworn it was the most worthless accessory I ever had to purchase. After owning the Toyota, I wouldn't be without it. Just have to get a good one though. Terry tm8@ntrs.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 13:45:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id NAA14126; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:44:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from palrel3.hp.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA14121; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:44:55 -0500 Received: from hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com (hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com [15.128.129.112]) by palrel3.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10245 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder.grenoble.hp.com by hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA007158097; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:41:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199701311341.AA007158097@hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com> To: diy_efi Cc: Don_Irwin@grenoble.hp.com Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic problem Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 14:41:36 +0100 From: Don Irwin Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi ---------------- On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Todd Knighton wrote: > Don Irwin wrote: > > run for more than a couple of seconds. Starts well but quickly dies - as it does > > so I hear the Air Flow Meter (AFM) flap dropping back and the fuel pump cutting > > out. > Sounds to me like a pretty good sized vacuum leak. If its that easy look at the bottom side of the hose to the air flow meter [I'm speaking from Spider experience here]. --Carter -------------------- Todd - I can confirm there is no vac leak - thanks anyway for your input. ---------------------- Scott Davis - wrote Make sure that the idle solenoid is connected. =) ---------------------- Scott - it certainly is ! ------------------------- Don Irwin __________________________________________________________________________ | | | Don Irwin E-Mail: Don_Irwin@grenoble.hp.com | | TNO B1 N2 C1 - box 13 | | Hewlett-Packard France | | 5 av R. Chanas - Eybens Telephone: +33 (0)476 14 1774 (Telnet 779-1774)| | 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 Fax: +33 (0)476 14 1686 | |__________________________________________________________________________| From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:06:20 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14179; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:03:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14174; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:03:32 -0500 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <3996>; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:03:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:03:24 -0500 From: Wen Yen Chan X-Sender: chanwe@spark20.ecf To: Mark Eidson cc: diy_efi Subject: Re: diagnostic tool In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970130170510.0a47d36e@tempepop> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I will be putting up a simple web page on the web server at U of T engineering. I would post the files on the mailing list except they amount to more than 500k. Initially the page will contain the scans of the raw design notes, a somewhat cleaner schematic diagram, the JEDEC file for the GAL, the C code for the logger software and some very brief notes on each of the diagrams. When I have more time I will write an article detailing the function of the circuit and construction. Please note that my prototype was built using the block diagram and the pin outs for the various chips and that I drew the schematic after assembly and testing. I will be double checking several times to make sure that I drew the circuit without mistakes. WEN On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Mark Eidson wrote: > Wen, when say web page, which one do you mean? me > > At 02:14 PM 1/30/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Hello. I have just finished scanning the data logger designs. Because the > >design notes are my raw engineering notes the text is somewhat terse. I'm > >a little bogged down with work right now so I might not be able to put up > >the web page till Friday night (or even the weekend). If anyone is > >interested I am working with three other students (I'm doing the > >electronics and computer design) on a self riding bicycle. The control > >code which we will be using might be applicable to EFI. > > > > > >Wen > > > > > > > > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Alain Marchildon wrote: > > > >> I think there has been enough responses that you might think on getting > >> them posted at the DIY_EFI site. > >> And by the way I like to see them also. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > *************************************************************************** > * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * > * Fax: (602)752-6000 * > * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * > * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * > * VLSI Technology, Inc. * > * 8375 South River Parkway * > * M/S 265 * > * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * > *************************************************************************** > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:12:48 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14233; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:12:22 GMT Return-Path: Received: from smtp.utexas.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14228; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:12:20 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 31 Jan 1997 14:12:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 31 Jan 1997 14:12:18 -0000 Received: from ACC.austin.cc.tx.us (m198214180036.austin.cc.tx.us [198.214.180.36]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id IAA23806; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:12:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:12:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701311412.IAA23806@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: nickhagen , Bronco list , diy_efi From: cloud@peaches.ph.utexas.edu (Tom Cloud) Subject: Re: EEC-IV list (was diagnostic tool) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Nick wrote: > >Ahso!!! I didn't even realize the list existed. However I did notice a >certain lack of EEC info on the DYI list of late. Turns out I'm aquainted >with a few people on this list, two live nearby and one has worked with my >dad for a quite a while. I'll just leave names out for now. > >I assume it's ok for me to contact Paul about getting added to the list? > >Thanks for the info. Do you have EEC-IV on the bronco? > >Nick No, I have an old-fashioned distributor / duraspark combo and Holley ProJection fuel delivery on the Bronco. The EEC-IV discussion is very slow. A few of us stir the pot occasionally, but little happens. I keep hoping 'someone else' will do something. Looks I may have to step up to the plate. Would someone please do something? Anyone got an ECU I can play with ?? Paul just wrote this to the list, please contact him: ==================== Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:07:10 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Nowak To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Note to EEC-EFI List Members Hello Everybody, I just moved the list over to a majordomo-type email list server. Unfortunately, I have to do some other stuff right now so hang tight and I will give you all the information you need on administrative issues Friday morning. Thanks, Paul Nowak Tom Cloud From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:22:32 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14254; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:19:58 GMT Return-Path: Received: from rs232.bb-elec.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14248; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:19:52 -0500 Received: from mfahrion.bb-elec.com ([206.1.0.69]) by rs232.bb-elec.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26276 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:33:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701311533.JAA26276@rs232.bb-elec.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mike Fahrion" Organization: B&B Electronics Mfg. Co. To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:19:52 +0000 Subject: RE: ABS (no efi content) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > Under zero traction conditions like sheer ice, ain't nothin gonna stop you, > ABS or no. The miniscule coefficient of friction between rubber and > polished ice is all you got (and mebbe some air drag), no matter if the > brakes are locked, pumped, ABS'ed or off. No way ABS will *decrease* > stopping distance under these conditions, but it probably won't *increase* > them appreciably either. The only advantage of ABS in this situation is > that you retain some semblance of directional control, which you *do not* > have with locked wheels. The whole point of ABS is not to make you stop > faster (it doesn't) but to retain steering control (it does). I can't help but chime in here - sorry for drawing out the non-efi discussion. ABS primarily helps an incompetent (maybe undertrained is a better word) driver out of a situation that they will likely never be in. As a self proclamed "educated" consumer - I despise the fact the I likely won't be able to purchase my next vehicle without ABS. True there are probably (maybe?) some scenarios where ABS may help even a trained driver, but they certainly don't justify the added cost. Now add traction control, and maybe now we have some actual added value for our dollar, but ABS, IMHO is mostly a marketing tool. And don't even get me started on airbags! Food for thought - has anyone ever seen/heard of a racecar with airbags? If they truly added safety over a good restraint system they would certainly show up there! Please if anyone wants to discuss/enlighten me on that issue, mail me directly, off the efi list. -mike mfahrion@bb-elec.com From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:24:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14274; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:24:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from colba.colba.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14269; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:24:12 -0500 Received: from marchildon (pm7-s8.colba.net [206.186.222.105]) by colba.colba.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA28467 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:24:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970131092506.0092fc20@mail.colba.net> X-Sender: marchildon@mail.colba.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:25:08 -0500 To: diy_efi From: Alain Marchildon Subject: Re: diagnostic tool Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi At 05:13 PM 1/30/97 -0700, you wrote: I was saying the project section of the DIY_EFI page. >Wen, when say web page, which one do you mean? me > >> >>Hello. I have just finished scanning the data logger designs. Because the >>design notes are my raw engineering notes the text is somewhat terse. I'm >>a little bogged down with work right now so I might not be able to put up >>the web page till Friday night (or even the weekend). If anyone is >>interested I am working with three other students (I'm doing the >>electronics and computer design) on a self riding bicycle. The control >>code which we will be using might be applicable to EFI. >> >> >>Wen From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:48:23 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14332; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:44:28 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ferryman.kemet.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14327; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:44:25 -0500 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com by ferryman.kemet.com (SMI-8.6/Kemet Electronics Corporation) id JAA25256; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:44:07 -0500 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9a for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1997Jan31.083938.1724.197319; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:43:35 -0500 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Message-ID: <1997Jan31.083938.1724.197319@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:43:35 -0500 Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Does anyone know what kind of wheel or axle or gear rotation sensors are used in an (Bosch maybe) ABS system? Does Bosch make them? Delco? Are these sensors hall effect? Or are they proximity? Variable reluctance? Capacitive? Variable permittivity? From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 14:50:56 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA14355; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:50:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA14350; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:50:23 -0500 From: FJB203@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA27397 for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:50:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:50:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970131095039_617440203@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: diy_efi Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi In a message dated 97-01-30 22:25:51 EST, you write: > I can see independent 4 wheel braking as the way to go for maximum traction. > Chevy trucks have the rear wheel only ABS that works off of the tranny VSS, > I think. As we all know, most of the braking is at the front wheels. What's > up with that? Most full size cars with ABS seem to have 4 wheel independent > ABS. I got an ABS system off of a police > car (93 caprice), Bosh unit. I'd love to hack it. But when you say ABS, hush > is the word. Can't find the necessary info. The ABS systems that most trucks have over the last few years (Ford as well as GM) are rear-antilock only. The reason for this is typically trucks, especially pickup trucks have a signficantly higher percentage of the vehicle's weight on the front wheels, rather than the rear wheels, unless loaded. Therefore, when unloaded, its very easy to lock the rear wheels and lose control. There are plenty of aftermarket ABS systems, one of which I used before... it contains two small nitrogen-charged cylinders with a small metal diaphram, which attaches to the brake lines immediately next to the master cylinder, and causes the anti-lock "caliper pulsing" effect that an electronic system would accomplish. George, if you have any questions, email me... Fred From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 15:43:45 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA14527; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:41:49 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ndcrelay.mci.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA14522; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:41:46 -0500 Received: by ndcrelay.mci.com; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/07Nov95-0827AM) id KAB17957; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:41:44 -0500 Received: from pop2a.mail.mci.com by ndcrelay.mci.com; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0411PM) id KAA30511; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:41:43 -0500 Received: from pop1a.mail.mci.com (pop1a.mail.mci.com [166.37.204.5]) by pop2a.mail.mci.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id JAA04541 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:41:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from ausntburns2.atn.mci.com ([166.41.147.237]) by pop1a.mail.mci.com (post.office MTA v2.1 0910 ID# 0-10275) with SMTP id AAA1977 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:41:40 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970131154149.006b3c80@pop1.mail.mci.com> X-Sender: tburns@pop1.mail.mci.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:41:49 -0600 To: diy_efi From: "Thomas Burns" Subject: Runners Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I have a 67 Mustang with a '86 302HO carburated motor that I plan to switch over to EFI. I am torn between getting the GT-40 stuff and using stock stuff or just using all the regular runners and stock stuff. Does anyone have any experience with the GT-40 stuff? I would sure like to hear about some of the pitfalls with the conversion. -Tom From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 16:33:33 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA14628; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:24:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14623; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:24:01 -0500 Received: from ven-ca1-12.ix.netcom.com (fcmtb@ven-ca1-12.ix.netcom.com [205.186.74.44]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA18329 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:23:59 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:23:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199701311623.IAA18329@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: fcmtb@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Fred Miranda Subject: Re: Manifold vaccuum, EGR & long duration cams Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Tony, I think you would be better off going with a table. Fill it with #s that work through trial and error and forget the airflow calculation. You've probably got pulsations on the plenum. So you need to either filter them out or time your map readings to the crank, or the system will go nuts. Since the engine idled on the other system, it will obviously idle on this one if it is fed the same fuel and timing. Fred At 05:21 PM 1/31/97 +1200, you wrote: >In an attempt to go from my very bad RPM/TPS system >to a reasonable MAP system, I built myself an conventional >arrangement plenum chamber, and tossed the >DCOEs I was using as throttle bodies. > >However, It doesn't idle at all well. > >Setup: 72 degree overlap cam, largish plenum chamber, MAP system > >Problems: > Won't idle below 1500 rpm. Simply dies if revs drop below > that. Starts easily though. No idea how well it goes under > load at higher rpms. > > (used to idle at 500rpm on tps system or carbs) > > At 1500 rpm with spark advanced for maximum > vaccuum (13" Hg), actual fuel requirement > (as determined by using a colortune windowed > spark plug) is 1/4 what it should be, according > to the MAP calculations. > >Hypothesis: > During overlap a large amount of exhaust gas is being > sucked back into the cylinder & plenum chamber, effectively > giving me the EGR system from hell. > >How to fix? > >I've so far managed to stay away from 2D tables, and stuck to >parameterised formulas. (For ease of tuning). > >Do map systems generally cope well with high overlap? > >Will I have to retard the ignition at idle to slow it down >below 1500? > >thanks... > > > > >$$$ MAKE CAR FAST $$$ >bryantt@psc.fp.co.nz > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 16:42:41 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA14655; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:36:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from devhla1.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14650; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:35:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199701311635.LAA14650@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by devhla1.cebaf.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA153788556; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:35:56 -0500 From: Bruce Bowling Subject: Re: Optimum injector selection To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:35:56 EST In-Reply-To: <01IEUB5TPGWG9FQ3C9@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>; from "steve.jacques" at Jan 30, 97 10:57 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 112.5] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > > Would anyone know how to calculate the required injector flow rate required > for a particular displacement engine? > for example, a 4 cyl 4 stroke 600cc engine, spins up to 14,000rpm, made by > Honda? > > Thanks for your help in advance! > Steve Jacques > Running this thru the injector sizing program (assuming a 12 Lb/hr injector, converting 600cc to 36.6 cibic inch, and assuming a VE of 80%): CID = 37 Volumetric Efficiency = 80% Engine RPM = 14000 Number of cylinders = 4 # Injections per 2 Crank Revs = 2 Air/Fuel Ratio = 14.7 Test Injector Size (Lbs/hr) = 12 Computation Results: The Engine uses 3.241e-04 pounds of air during 2 crankshaft revolutions at the given VE of 80%, per cylinder. For the desired Air/Fuel Ratio of 14.7, the Injector Fire Time is 3.3 milliseconds for one event (batch), 6.6 milliseconds total. For an engine operating at 14000 revolutions per minute, the Maximum Opportunity for Injection is 8.6 milliseconds (per 2 Crank Revolutions), which yields a 77.2% Duty Cycle. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 17:00:19 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA14740; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:53:35 GMT Return-Path: Received: from mail.westworld.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA14735; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:53:32 -0500 Received: from bullwinkle (du163-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.5.163]) by mail.westworld.com (8.8.4-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA28393 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:53:28 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970131155516.0091d070@mail.westworld.com> X-Sender: sganz@mail.westworld.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:55:16 -0800 To: diy_efi From: Sandy Subject: Re: Optimum injector selection Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Look at the efi332 web site for a link to Bruce Bowlings page, it has all that stuff. I don't have the URL handy but it is on the EFI332 and DIYEFI home page. Sandy At 10:57 PM 1/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Would anyone know how to calculate the required injector flow rate required >for a particular displacement engine? >for example, a 4 cyl 4 stroke 600cc engine, spins up to 14,000rpm, made by >Honda? > > Thanks for your help in advance! > Steve Jacques > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 17:05:46 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id RAA14774; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:01:12 GMT Return-Path: Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA14769; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:01:08 -0500 Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id JAA21966 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:50:42 -0800 Received: from tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (devious.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id KAA00178 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:01:06 -0700 Received: from meidsonpc (meidsonpc.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.132.22]) by tempepop.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/010296) with SMTP id KAA28819 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:09:04 -0700 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:09:04 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970131100019.094772aa@tempepop> X-Sender: meidson@tempepop X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: Mark Eidson Subject: Re: Runners Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi They way I understand it is the stock runners will work fine with the stock stuff. If you go to the GT40 runners and manifold you should use upgraded stuf like cam, injectors and chip to take advantage of the high end horse power improvement the runners/manifold provide. me At 09:41 AM 1/31/97 -0600, you wrote: >I have a 67 Mustang with a '86 302HO carburated motor that I plan to switch >over to EFI. I am torn between getting the GT-40 stuff and using stock stuff >or just using all the regular runners and stock stuff. Does anyone have any >experience with the GT-40 stuff? I would sure like to hear about some of the >pitfalls with the conversion. > >-Tom > > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and Home: (602)831-6079 * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@tempe.vlsi.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** From owner-diy_efi-archive Fri Jan 31 19:09:31 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id TAA15039; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:00:38 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA15030; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:00:34 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial001h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.66]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA28469 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:59:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32F23FC3.52AB@net-quest.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:53:55 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic problem References: <199701311341.AA007158097@hpentccl.grenoble.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Don Irwin wrote: > > ---------------- > > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Todd Knighton wrote: > > > Don Irwin wrote: > > > > run for more than a couple of seconds. Starts well but quickly dies - as it does > > > so I hear the Air Flow Meter (AFM) flap dropping back and the fuel pump cutting > > > out. > > > Sounds to me like a pretty good sized vacuum leak. > > > Todd - I can confirm there is no vac leak - thanks anyway for your input. > Well Don, can you keep the car running by jacking the air flow meter door open a little bit to get the mixture back up? Is your fuel pressure at the rails correct? It sounds to me like it's a lean condition that's making the car stall. Even if the temp sensor is a dead short, it'll default to hot running condition and should work fine once the engine is warm. It sounds the other way to me. The other things that affect the air fuel ratio are the air flow meter, fuel pressure, and injector problems. You can typically disconnect the inlet air temp sensor and it won't affect you enough to get the type of problems your referring to. We have, on the other hand, seen a bad ignition system affect the air fuel ratio on some of the later C2/C4's. They're particularly finicky. Make sure that's in good order as well. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 00:26:21 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA15645; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:21:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA15639; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:21:31 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d15.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.207]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA09964 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:21:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:21:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702010021.SAA09964@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi I've herd about these in consumer reports. Not raving reviews I might add. The adds for these usally say, "Has anti-lock braking benefits". If it's not a dynamic and active system, I'll pass. Thanks GMD At 09:50 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >There are plenty of aftermarket ABS systems, one of which I used before... it >contains two small nitrogen-charged cylinders with a small metal diaphram, >which attaches to the brake lines immediately next to the master cylinder, >and causes the anti-lock "caliper pulsing" effect that an electronic system >would accomplish. > >George, if you have any questions, email me... > >Fred > > From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 00:26:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id AAA15644; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:21:34 GMT Return-Path: Received: from ns.tecinfo.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA15633; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:21:30 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (d15.t1.tecinfo.com [206.30.166.207]) by ns.tecinfo.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA09961 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:21:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:21:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702010021.SAA09961@ns.tecinfo.com> X-Sender: gmd@mail.tecinfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi From: "George M. Dailey" Subject: Re: ABS Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi Alright gentlemen, enough general talk about ABS. Who, out there, has DIY_ABS? I'm thinking that if you buy the critical parts (modulator), the ECU should not be hard to build. Wheel speed sensors should also be a snap to build. Imagine this set up: 4 fast acting solenoid valves, normally closed between each wheel and master cylinder, each solenoid dumps back to the master cylinder speed sensor at each wheel small electric gear pump (high pressure, very low volume), suction side connected to master cylinder resorvor, discharge connected to each wheel caliper Here's a controll senerio. You're testing your DIY_EFI for high speed, 140, 150, 160mph. All of a sudden a "Big Foot" leaps out on the road. You slam the brakes. The ECU detects a lower frequency signal comming from one wheel as it locks. It opens the solenoid valve for a few milliseconds. the wheel speed catches up with the rest of the crew. This repeats between several wheels untill the master cylinder stroke bottoms out. At this point, the electric pump kicks in and supplies the fluid pressure to the brake callipers. What do you think? Sure, you would have to add code for stuff like eliminating ABS control below 5mph and other situations. Send your flaming comments to: throw_it_in@trash.can On a serious note, it doesn't seem to hard to do technicly. Uh-oh, looks like trouble. GMD From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 01:15:22 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA15717; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:09:50 GMT Return-Path: Received: from scuacc.scu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA15712; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:09:48 -0500 Received: from scuacc.scu.edu by scuacc.scu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #2527) id <01IEVCEI0RR400MSAX@scuacc.scu.edu>; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:06:59 -0800 (PST) From: khearn@SCUACC.SCU.EDU Subject: Re: Optimum injector selection In-reply-to: <01IEUB5TPGWG9FQ3C9@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> To: diy_efi Cc: diy_efi Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi This is a little rule of thumb that an engineer at Bosch told me for estimating injector size (#/hr). You must first know the BSFC of you fuel. Pump gas is ~.4 to .5, M85 is about .9. (I don't recall what BSFC stands for, but the units are #/(hp*hr)). Then estimate your final engine horsepower...it doesn't hurt to be a little optimistic here. However, you should take an educated guess. Finally, multiply that horsepower with the BSFC. This gives you the amount of #/hr that your whole engine needs. Divide that number by number of cylinders to get the size of injectors (if you're doing port injection). Ex. est. hp.= 100 no. of cylinders = 4 BSFC = .5 injector size= (100*.5)/4 ~ 12.5 *these numbers were chosen just so I could do the math in my head* I am not a professional, just a student. So if anyone knows if this relationship is false, please post a correction. Hope this helps! Kris Hearn From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 01:51:02 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id BAA15764; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:47:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA15759; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:47:02 -0500 Received: from tomlinsc.ix.netcom.com (det-mi12-56.ix.netcom.com [207.92.152.184]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA27961 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:46:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199702010146.RAA27961@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: "Chuck Tomlinson" To: Subject: Re: ABS Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:44:31 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi > From: George M. Dailey > > Alright gentlemen, enough general talk about ABS. Who, out there, has > DIY_ABS? I'm thinking that if you buy the critical parts (modulator), the > ECU should not be hard to build. [snip] > On a serious note, it doesn't seem to hard to do technicly. Uh-oh, looks > like trouble. IMHO, the big difference between DIY_EFI and DIY_ABS is the need for ABS to be essentially bulletproof. If your DIY_EFI code isn't tuned just right or has a few bugs, the engine will blow up, run rough, or not run at all. That's unpleasant, but you'll live to complain about it. Typically, when you're "in ABS", people's lives are on the line. I'm not trying to be overly dramatic; that's just the way it is. A momentary command error in an ABS controller can spin the car, or release the brakes. Do you want to trust your life to home-brewed code when hundreds (if not thousands) of engineers and scientists with mega-dollar budgets have been working their butts off for years to come up with safe production ABS systems? A DIY_ABS system will have to do *everything* that a production system does, and do it just as well. Unlike DIY_EFI, the occasional glitch or "driveability" problem is *unacceptable*. Unless an ABS system is damned near perfect, it *will* fail sooner or later. When it does, the consequences are likely to be severe. IMHO, DIY_ABS code is a very bad idea. Transferring a complete braking system from an ABS vehicle to a similar non-ABS vehicle is risky enough, but doing your own ABS code is... unwise. Just my 2c... -- Chuck Tomlinson From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 02:25:42 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA15945; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 02:23:18 GMT Return-Path: Received: from basecamp1.net-quest.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15940; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:23:15 -0500 Received: from zeos (dial015h.net-quest.com [206.117.109.80]) by basecamp1.net-quest.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id SAA00478 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:22:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32F2A785.5A12@net-quest.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:16:37 -0800 From: Todd Knighton Organization: Protomotive Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Optimum injector selection References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi khearn@scuacc.scu.edu wrote: > > This is a little rule of thumb that an engineer at > Bosch told me for estimating injector size (#/hr). > > You must first know the BSFC of you fuel. Pump gas is > ~.4 to .5, M85 is about .9. (I don't recall what BSFC stands for, > but the units are #/(hp*hr)). Then estimate your final engine > horsepower...it doesn't hurt to be a little optimistic here. However, you > should take an educated guess. Finally, multiply that horsepower with the > BSFC. This gives you the amount of #/hr that your whole engine needs. Divide > that number by number of cylinders to get the size of injectors (if you're > doing port injection). > > Ex. est. hp.= 100 > no. of cylinders = 4 > BSFC = .5 > > injector size= (100*.5)/4 ~ 12.5 Be careful when selecting BSFC's. Normally aspirated engines work well with .5 bsfc's but turbo's need a lot more fuel, like 25% more sometimes. Which would take you all the way to a .625 or so. and would change this now to (100*.625)/4 = 15.625, then taking into account that you never want to run the things over 80% that would now go to about 19.53, or 56% larger than the initial calc. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering From owner-diy_efi-archive Sat Feb 1 02:28:12 1997 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id CAA15965; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 02:28:01 GMT Return-Path: Received: from random.tpgi.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15960; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:27:57 -0500 Received: from lizard (gou-ppp-080.tpgi.com.au [203.29.140.80]) by random.tpgi.com.au (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA02421 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:27:46 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <32F3A4C1.13DD@tpgi.com.au> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:17:05 -0800 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Do It Yourself Electric Fuel Injection Subject: DELCO-EFI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi hi all just out of intrest, how many of you are involved in the AC/DELCO efi system??? i know it all comes from the states and is probley a whole heap of good progs for the delco system but over here in australia we dont have a whole lot..... any info would be tops! jalbury@tpgi.com.au